Re: _NET_WM_[GET_|TAKE_|REQUEST_]FOCUS & urgency

[Bill Haneman <Bill Haneman Sun COM>]

Elijah Newren wrote:

> ...
>
> > Your reason #2 is invalid in this context, since I _expressly_ was
> > referring to "raise", not "focus".  Having keystrokes go somewhere
> > unexpected is definitely wrong, I think we all agree that this is the
> > primary evil to avoid.  (See my initial comment).
> >    
>
> It was valid, you just misunderstood it.  I knew you were referring to
> "raise" and not "focus", and so was I.
Yep.  Sorry I misunderstood you the first time I read this.

>  The keystrokes continue going
> to window that the user expected to receive them--the confusing part
> for the user is that they can't see that window anymore.  People don't
> like interacting with things that they can't see or that are even
> partially obscured (with one glaring caveat that I know of: a number
> of people have learned some efficiency advantages in a
> do-not-raise-on-unmodified-click environment when heavily overlapping
> windows; they (err, um "we") are somewhat of a niche exception
> though).
>  
Yep.  I think this is a preference that users who have lived through the 
"focus stealing" behavior and moved on to a "don't steal" behavior may 
express more often than users who've never experienced multiple WM 
behaviors. 

> > > Because of this, there's no way this is
> > > going to be required in the spec.
> > >
> > >      
> > Because of "what?".  I am not sure what you are saying here.
> >    
>
> Because of the fact that it is not obvious that new windows should be
> raised above other windows to all people, there's no reason to put
> such a policy requirement in the spec.  The spec avoids policy where
> possible in order to allow the various WMs to choose their own.  For
> example, the spec doesn't mandate that windows gain focus by clicking
> on them as opposed to moving the mouse into the window.
>  
Right.  I think we're in agreement.  I guess I think exposing a user 
pref here allowing "raise on URGENT" or even "raise new" makes at least 
as much sense as exposing the option for "focus follows mouse", maybe 
even more.  But, before someone else points it out, that's a topic for 
another list ;-)

> > My point is that we should NOT confuse the arguments about "focus on
> > new" with those regarding "raise on new/urgent",   they are quite
> > different things.
> >    
>
> Agreed, but if you re-read my response, I did treat them
> differently--it's just that I have reasons to want NEITHER of them to
> be done for certain new windows.  And if I don't want it, I'm sure
> there are others.  Thus, I think that those who want new windows
> raised, even if not focused, should talk to the developers of the
> window manager they use.  (And note that Metacity happens to do that
> in the case of modal windows, though that's the only place I think it
> makes sense currently)
>
>
> Cheers,
> Elijah
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