Re: File/Quit/Exit/Saving Application termination

[Gleef <gleef capital net>]

On Wed, 5 Aug 1998, Ric Klaren wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 04, 1998 at 04:27:31PM -0400, Soren Harward wrote:
> > Agreed that we need to use the same one (BUT NOT WHICH ONE TO USE YET)?
> 
> Yep.
> 
> On the point of the exit/quit menu entry. Things I've seen used so far:

Well first thing is to quote someone (I forget who), you Exit a room, you
Quit smoking.  Quit carries connotations of permanancy in English.  This
would make Exit slightly preferable.


> A menu bar entry like Quit! (in which the '!' signifies that it is directly
> responding eg. no menu... (button feeling))
> 
> +----------------------------------------------+
> | <GF> File <more stuff> Quit!            Help |
> +----------------------------------------------+
> 
> Clicking the the Quit! directly starts the 'exit protocol' whatever that
> should become. Maybe usable in very simple apps. It at least should be
> clear that it is not a normal menu bar item.

This is inadvisable, since even with the exclamation mark, people don't
always realize that you have an item in the menubar that doesn't act
like a menu item.  This is from experience, I have seen new users
struggling with programs that had this very menu item.  Nobody liked it.


I assume that in the pictures above and below that the <GF> is the menu
that would be headed by either "Program" or the GNOMEprint.


> Another option:
> 
> The File menu is just an example here it could also be document/whatever.
> The idea is have more Quit-style menu entries. Like abandon -> exit app and
> abandon all files, also seen as Quit all.
> 
> +----------------------------------------------+
> | <GF> File <more stuff>                  Help |
> +-----+----------------------------------------+
>       | ....... |
> 		+---------+
> 		| Quit    |
> 		| Abandon |
>               +---------+

With the File menu in the second place, Exit makes NO sense there.
Abandon is a confusing term, people would understand Close All better,
assuming that is really what you're talking about.  This would belong
under File.


> Or to put it in the <GF> Menu (program/foot/gnome menu).
> 
> +----------------------------------------------+
> | <GF>   File <more stuff>                Help |
> ++---------+-----------------------------------+
>  | ....... |
>  +---------+
>  | Quit    |
>  | Abandon |
>  +---------+

Here I would say that Abandon is in the wrong place, unless I
misunderstand what you mean by it.


> And now for something completely different...
> 
> +----------------------------------------------+
> | <GF> File <more stuff> Quit             Help |
> +-----------------------+------------------+---+
>                         | And save all     |
>                         | And Abandon all  |
>                         | And save some    |
>                         | Suspend work     |
>                         +------------------+

That could make sense.  My first impression is that it is too complicated,
and that people are going to have problems not quitting from the leftmost
menu.  The problems my users were having earlier were as much about the
location of the Quit quasimenu as the functioning of it.


> Other relevant Quiting options could be added to this menu. Quit is clearly
> visible in the menu bar for the novice user. The non novice user will get
> used to it soon enough. One could maybe call the Quit title Leave/Exit or
> something else...

Multiple quitting options are often done as a dialog after Exit, this
gives the users the extra option of having a chance to hit the "No! I
missed! I don't want to Exit!!" button.  If there is a special case that
shouldn't be handled by the Exit dialog, it can go right above Exit in the
left menu.


> With the suspend I refer to the idea posted a little while back by Steven
> Pfab what should happen if an app quits. Suspend would save the state of
> the app to a temporary location.

Can this be handled with Session Management?  Should there be a "Save
Session" item in the Program menu?


> The save some would implement Dan Kaminsky's quit idea... Quit -> box with
> files that could be saved.

Saving some is a good idea for mutliple file applications (like Word
Processors).  This could also be implemented as a button on a Exit dialog.


> A quit menu like this would be consequent in it's place and logical
> overall.. You could also add a sort of default action selection to it.. a
> check mark behind the thing the user wants default. When one quit shortcut
> is asigned to the menu.... (if you get what I mean).
> 
> A hybrid solution with one of the others is also possible....

My comments on a hybrid solution (i.e. Program->Exit and a more
complicated Exit dialog) are above.


> Just a thought...
> 
> Ric
> 
> PS could ppl please change the subject lines according to the discussion
> makes it easier to sift to the mail/threads. Mutt helps a lot but I like to
> keep track of stuff I find interesting without having to read all. As I
> said: please!?

Agreed.


> PPS <preach mode on (skip if you don't feel like it :) ) > Why go in a
> lengthy discussion about Quit in file/program menu or to have a file menu
> at all... if there's maybe a good alternative :) Think alternatives...
> Lateron put the alternatives against eachother and decide. <preach mode off
> =) >

Because the issues go down to GUI philosophy.  Philosophical issues often
need debate, and not just choices.  Some of the debate got a bit silly,
but debate was needed on the issues.

Even now, while I think enough of the list is on the same wavelength to
call it a consensus, by no means is there agreement, and pretty much all 
of the people debating have seen the choices.

-Gleef