From shax82@hotmail.com Sun Dec 3 02:07:58 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from hotmail.com (oe5.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.236.109]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5D562BD6C for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2000 02:07:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 2 Dec 2000 23:07:24 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [200.53.168.85] From: "Felipe Contreras" To: "Gnome Web List" Subject: KISS Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 01:08:42 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C05CC5.93ED77A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Dec 2000 07:07:24.0239 (UTC) FILETIME=[AFCB55F0:01C05CF7] Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C05CC5.93ED77A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi everybody, I was wondering if everyone was really so quiet, or you = deleted me from the list : ) Anyway if you are there just take a look to this site, it's simple, = stupid, small but it's cool to me, sure we are going to make something a = little bit bigger, take a look and tell if it's somewhat the "look" that = the new gnome site will have. Felipe Contreras ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C05CC5.93ED77A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi everybody, I was wondering if = everyone was=20 really so quiet, or you deleted me from the list : )
Anyway if you are there just take a = look to this=20 site, it's simple, stupid, small but it's cool to me, sure we are going = to make=20 something a little bit bigger, take a look and tell if it's somewhat the = "look"=20 that the new gnome site will have.
 
Felipe = Contreras
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C05CC5.93ED77A0-- From mcsoccer@colyer.org Sat Dec 2 23:53:05 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from eve.speakeasy.net (eve.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.17]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C77B2BB53 for ; Sat, 2 Dec 2000 23:53:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from darkfusion.colyer.org (dsl254-096-109-nyc1.dsl-isp.net [216.254.96.109]) by eve.speakeasy.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id eB34oCX20812; Sat, 2 Dec 2000 20:50:13 -0800 Message-Id: <200012030450.eB34oCX20812@eve.speakeasy.net> Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 23:57:51 EST From: Matt Colyer To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Reply-To: mcsoccer@colyer.org X-Mailer: Spruce 0.7.2 for X11 w/smtpio 0.7.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: (no subject) Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Hello, It would be really nice if we could get some sever space at xxxx.gnome.org for development purposes. Such as hosting a developer/abilities db as well as all the proposals, design comps, requirements, and ideas that have been stated thus far. I was going to do this on another server but I wasn't sure if that was what your goal was with the proposal later Matt From David.Bellot@loria.fr Tue Dec 5 13:55:44 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lorraine.loria.fr (lorraine.loria.fr [152.81.1.17]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DF262E1B0 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 13:55:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from loria.fr (IDENT:david@vallois.loria.fr [152.81.7.64]) by lorraine.loria.fr (8.9.3/8.9.3/8.9.3/JCG-DG) with ESMTP id TAA24532; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 19:55:41 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <3A2D3B32.C95DE6DC@loria.fr> Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 20:00:03 +0100 From: David Bellot Organization: LORIA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16-22 i686) X-Accept-Language: fr-FR, fr, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: joakim@helixcode.com, gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: French localization of web sites and softwares Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Hi, I'm very interested in the localization of Gnome Software and Web sites. Actually, I'm the leader of the French Mozilla group. We are working actually on the M18 release in french and have already localized all precedent versions (web page is http://www.loria.fr/~bellot/mozilla.html). I have a little team with 12 persons, and I hope they could help too in maintaining and localizing web sites in french and perhaps other GNOME softwares. Localization for softwares and web sites in KDE project is simply great (and the leader of French Team in KDE is a good friend of me ;-). So, I hope to see the same work done in GNOME which is actually my favorite desktop. Mozilla is almost ready and we could work on other projects. I hope you're interested in it, and perhaps we'll work together to make GNOME the ultimate workbench ! Best Regards, David Bellot bellot@loria.fr From aidin@djesi.ba Tue Dec 5 16:56:43 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from happy-one.ssbljk (OSF-remote13.soros.org.ba [195.222.51.187]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C4ED2E1A6 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 16:56:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (aidin@localhost) by happy-one.ssbljk (8.10.2/8.10.2/SuSE Linux 8.10.0-0.3) with ESMTP id eB3EMdZ01218; Sun, 3 Dec 2000 15:22:39 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: happy-one.ssbljk: aidin owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 15:22:38 +0100 (CET) From: Aidin Alihodzic X-Sender: aidin@happy-one.ssbljk To: Felipe Contreras Cc: Gnome Web List Subject: Re: KISS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work which site? ;) sorry but I can't to find URL in your post... Haven't closed my eyes for 48 hours.... |-) argh... there is no any URL :-) Aidin On Sun, 3 Dec 2000, Felipe Contreras wrote: > Hi everybody, I was wondering if everyone was really so quiet, or you deleted me from the list : ) > Anyway if you are there just take a look to this site, it's simple, stupid, small but it's cool to me, sure we are going to make something a little bit bigger, take a look and tell if it's somewhat the "look" that the new gnome site will have. > > Felipe Contreras > From al593181@mail.mty.itesm.mx Tue Dec 5 18:34:49 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from webmail.mty.itesm.mx (webmail.mty.itesm.mx [131.178.2.83]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B02B92C926 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 18:34:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from felipecg (200.53.168.44) by webmail.mty.itesm.mx (5.1.054) id 3A2724C800013283; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 17:32:59 -0600 Message-ID: <000e01c05f14$2dc8e8a0$b09fb283@felipecg> From: "Felipe Contreras" To: "Aidin Alihodzic" Cc: "Gnome Web List" References: Subject: Re: KISS Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 17:36:20 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Damn! that's strange, http://www.linuxfromscratch.org, let's test it.. yea it is. Don't worry, now I've finished my finals, my mind is here again. : ) In what was I thinking? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aidin Alihodzic" To: "Felipe Contreras" Cc: "Gnome Web List" Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 8:22 AM Subject: Re: KISS > > which site? ;) > sorry but I can't to find URL in your post... Haven't closed my eyes for > 48 hours.... |-) argh... there is no any URL :-) > > Aidin > > On Sun, 3 Dec 2000, Felipe Contreras wrote: > > > Hi everybody, I was wondering if everyone was really so quiet, or you deleted me from the list : ) > > Anyway if you are there just take a look to this site, it's simple, stupid, small but it's cool to me, sure we are going to make something a little bit bigger, take a look and tell if it's somewhat the "look" that the new gnome site will have. > > > > Felipe Contreras > > > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-web-list mailing list > gnome-web-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-web-list > From digitect@mindspring.com Tue Dec 5 21:09:28 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from barry.mail.mindspring.net (barry.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.25]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FEF72BA9A for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:09:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4ei.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.210]) by barry.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA02057; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:09:24 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <005601c05f29$b228f3a0$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: "Felipe Contreras" Cc: "Gnome Web List" References: <000e01c05f14$2dc8e8a0$b09fb283@felipecg> Subject: Re: KISS Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:10:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > Damn! that's strange, http://www.linuxfromscratch.org, let's test it.. yea Hmmm, looks more KDE than GNOME, I'd say. Has the typical bars and colored areas, you know? Personally, I've been on a floating look lately, grey on white with accents of blue. Check out http://www.mindspring.com/~digitect/gnome-print/new/index.htm and my 15 minute GNOME comp at http://www.mindspring.com/~digitect/gnome/index.htm. Graphically, I'd like to see something less tech, more curvy, minimal and three-dimensional (or at least layered), and a little primitive/earthy looking, perhaps with a tad of carved in stone or rune-ish look like at my first link. I'm tired of colored bars everywhere. My two cents. From Uraeus@linuxrising.org Wed Dec 6 12:54:27 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mta01.chello.no (mta01.chello.no [212.186.255.12]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7E532BBE4 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 12:54:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from [192.168.0.131] ([212.186.233.38]) by mta01.chello.no (InterMail vK.4.02.00.00 201-232-116 license 77df2db80a2bdce4d335ff4839618d42) with ESMTP id <20001206175517.CVQB5083.mta01@[212.186.233.38]>; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 18:55:17 +0100 Subject: Who am I and what do I want to do for GNOME web From: Christian Schaller To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Cc: Joakim Ziegler Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 06 Oct 2000 15:54:44 -0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20001206175517.CVQB5083.mta01@[212.186.233.38]> Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Hi, I thought I should do what many others on the list have done before me and make a short presentation of myself and say something about how I plan to contribute. I have been following/parttaking in the GNOME effort now for since the 0.30 release. I am no coder (at least not of a usable level) so I have usually focused on doing advocacy stuff. This has included doing a lot of interviews and articles on GNOME which I have mostly published on Linuxpower.org and also help with arranging some GNOME related events, like helping IDG to get Michaek Meeks and Alan Cox to Oslo to do talks etc. I have also indirectly helped with the Norwegian translation by loaning Kjartan money ;) What do I want to do as part of the web team? Well, I am not interested in the choice of technology or page design, that I leave to the other able people on this list. What I want to do is continue as I have as a newshunter and editor for Gnotices and I also want to help maintain content. Currently I try to keep the mailing list page (http://www.gnome.org/resources/mailing-lists.html) resonanbly up to date, but I wouldn't mind helping out maintaining other parts of the GNOME website which could need some love. So if there are some parts of the website in desperate need of some content maintenance, please let me know. Christian From shax82@hotmail.com Sat Dec 9 21:59:27 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from hotmail.com (oe68.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.236.207]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50D392BB41 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 21:59:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 18:59:26 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [200.53.168.230] From: "Felipe Contreras" To: "Gnome Web List" Subject: Gnome test page Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 20:29:27 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0621E.BA24F8E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Dec 2000 02:59:26.0345 (UTC) FILETIME=[34C51F90:01C06255] Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0621E.BA24F8E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0006_01C0621E.BA24F8E0" ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C0621E.BA24F8E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, since there is no action in the list I did a sample of the front = page of the site. Sure there need to be lots of icons in order to make = the page look good, you know, one for each section of the site. For the ones that like lynx, this page looks pretty good. And for the ones that likes IE, sorry right now I've seen the page = doesn't look right. What do you think? ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C0621E.BA24F8E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well, since there is no action in the = list I did a=20 sample of the front page of the site. Sure there need to be lots of = icons in=20 order to make the page look good, you know, one for each section of the=20 site.
For the ones that like lynx, this page = looks pretty=20 good.
And for the ones that likes IE, sorry = right now=20 I've seen the page doesn't look right.
What do you = think?
------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C0621E.BA24F8E0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0621E.BA24F8E0 Content-Type: text/html; name="gnome2.html" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="gnome2.html" Gnome Test Page
3D"Gnome_logo"
Quote of the day: = Gnome rulez
Menu
Applications
Development
News
Download
Information
International
hmmmmmm, editorial?
Partners
GTK
GIMP
Linux
Kernel
Helix Code
OSDN
Gnome NEWS:
Hi, the news are....
no one is writting on the = list :-P
And tha..., o yea, Metatags
Gnome TIP:
Download GNOME from Helix Code. It's an organization = dedicated to make the GNOMe installation easier, so, It's better that = you download GNOMe from there.
Miscelanius:
Download GNOME from Helix Code
Here there will be anything, no matter about = what.
What the hell is GNOME
[Applications][Development][News][Download]
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0621E.BA24F8E0-- From hansolo@rochester.rr.com Sun Dec 10 00:01:24 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mailout1-1.nyroc.rr.com (mailout1-1.nyroc.rr.com [24.92.226.146]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F23D02BAC2 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 00:01:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from 2z2j10b (d185fd10d.rochester.rr.com [24.95.209.13]) by mailout1-1.nyroc.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA21127; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 23:56:48 -0500 (EST) From: "Alex" To: "Felipe Contreras" , "Gnome Web List" Subject: RE: Gnome test page Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 23:54:35 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Seems ok there are a few spelling issues though "Miscellaneous" is the correct spelling not "Miscelanius" And is there a reason why its spelled "GNOMe" several places? -Alex -----Original Message----- From: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org [mailto:gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org]On Behalf Of Felipe Contreras Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2000 9:29 PM To: Gnome Web List Subject: Gnome test page Well, since there is no action in the list I did a sample of the front page of the site. Sure there need to be lots of icons in order to make the page look good, you know, one for each section of the site. For the ones that like lynx, this page looks pretty good. And for the ones that likes IE, sorry right now I've seen the page doesn't look right. What do you think? From michaeld@senet.com.au Sun Dec 10 05:51:40 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from pluto.senet.com.au (pluto.senet.com.au [203.56.239.150]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6FD62BC8D for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 05:51:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from senet.com.au (c20-p50.senet.com.au [203.152.254.51]) by pluto.senet.com.au (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBAApY598537 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 21:21:35 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from michaeld@senet.com.au) Message-ID: <3A33603A.361C41B3@senet.com.au> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 21:21:38 +1030 From: Michael Davies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16-22 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GNOME Web List Subject: So where to from here? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work What's happenning with gnome-web? Are we waiting for Joakim's design document? Are we going to get working over the holidays? :-) -- Michael Davies "Do what you think is interesting, do something that michaeld@senet.com.au you think is fun and worthwhile, because otherwise you won't do it well anyway." -- Brian Kernighan. From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sun Dec 10 05:58:07 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA9B82BF4F for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 05:58:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 1454BB-000147-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 11:58:05 +0100 Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 05:55:21 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: GNOME Web List Subject: Re: So where to from here? Message-ID: <20001210055521.R21071@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: GNOME Web List References: <3A33603A.361C41B3@senet.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A33603A.361C41B3@senet.com.au>; from michaeld@senet.com.au on Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 09:21:38PM +1030 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 09:21:38PM +1030, Michael Davies wrote: > What's happenning with gnome-web? Are we waiting for Joakim's design > document? Are we going to get working over the holidays? :-) I'm actually writing it now. I've been a little stressed out lately, but I'm hoping to have it all done on Sunday evening/night. Please bear with me. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From mlee@andrews.edu Sun Dec 10 10:28:02 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp-server.tampabay.rr.com (smtp-server.tampabay.rr.com [65.32.1.34]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01D922BAB8 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 10:28:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from andrews.edu (24161225hfc63.tampabay.rr.com [24.161.225.63]) by smtp-server.tampabay.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13451 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 10:28:01 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 10:29:31 -0500 From: Martin Lee X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gnome Web List Subject: GNOME comp Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Since it all that's going on is people making test pages and designs, I thought I might as well jump on the bandwagon. Here's one of my ideas so far... http://www.infovariant.com/mlee/g.gif Don't get all upset if it isn't what you want, It's only an idea. Things can change... From newton@retemail.es Sun Dec 10 12:34:03 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp4s.retemail.es (smtp4.iddeo.es [62.81.31.73]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B65ED2BAB8 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 12:33:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from retemail.es ([62.174.96.45]) by smtp4s.retemail.es (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20001210173354.GGBG116110.smtp4s.retemail.es@retemail.es> for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 18:33:54 +0100 Message-ID: <3A34151F.891D2AF5@retemail.es> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 18:43:27 -0500 From: Antonio =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mart=EDnez=20=C1lvarez?= Organization: Proyecto Ciencia Libre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [es] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.17 i586) X-Accept-Language: en, es MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: unsubscribe 417320 newton@retemail.es Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work -- Antonio Martínez Álvarez, From digitect@mindspring.com Sun Dec 10 13:57:42 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mclean.mail.mindspring.net (mclean.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.57]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B58132BAB8 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 13:57:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4a3.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.67]) by mclean.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA02838 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 13:57:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <002a01c062db$37f77ce0$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: "Gnome Web List" References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> Subject: Re: GNOME comp Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 13:58:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > Here's one of my ideas so far... > > http://www.infovariant.com/mlee/g.gif Hey, I like it! Comments: * The four quadrant idea has a nice effect visually and organizationally. I think it expresses the matrix we have in the GNOME community between users and developers. So it is also fitting that the News and Software sections are at the intersection of these two groups. Any thought to what happens after the front page to the unused half of the matrix? (i.e., the Developer box when your in a user section, or vice-versa.) * I like the color palette. Warm gray is identifiably GNOME and I think we should stick to it, although I may suggest replacing the red with a warm blue, not only because of my personal taste but because it plays better on most monitors. Also, I'm not sure where the hexagon patterning comes from. * I'd like to see desktop-type icons used as navigational tools for the different sections. This would help overcome localization problems, contribute/utilize our icon library, and generally improve the impression of the site. Several of these are already in place and work well, for example: calendar, screenshots and help question mark (FAQ). * I don't think the current site's or this one's use of phrases is very helpful. I find single word links (if they're well chosen) to be much more useful in finding my way around a site. Tasks should be distilled down to one word and one icon to be truly successful. (i.e., "See GNOME in action" is much less clear than "Screenshots" even though the later is basically slang.) Obviously we're still working through all this, so I'm not trying to criticize the comp, just voice my opinion since it raised the issue for me. I guess we still haven't decided the main sections of the site, but it would be good if the design could some how reflect them. The two-sided approach you present is a great start if we never end up getting it more refined than that. Steve Hall [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From David.Bellot@loria.fr Sun Dec 10 10:34:58 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lorraine.loria.fr (lorraine.loria.fr [152.81.1.17]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29AA62BAB8 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 10:34:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from loria.fr (IDENT:david@vallois.loria.fr [152.81.7.64]) by lorraine.loria.fr (8.9.3/8.9.3/8.9.3/JCG-DG) with ESMTP id QAA20131 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 16:34:56 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <3A33A375.F1251FA0@loria.fr> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 16:38:29 +0100 From: David Bellot Organization: LORIA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16-22 i686) X-Accept-Language: fr-FR, fr, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Gnome Web List Subject: Re: GNOME comp References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Martin Lee wrote: > Since it all that's going on is people making test pages and designs, I > thought I might as well jump on the bandwagon. > > Here's one of my ideas so far... > > http://www.infovariant.com/mlee/g.gif > > Don't get all upset if it isn't what you want, It's only an idea. Things > can change... I found your design nice, but I prefer the new desing. In fact, the organization of the web page is better than the actual one. Could you mix the both ? And could you add more colors to make the page more fun. Old GNOME colors are not happy ! Best Regards, DB From ryan@devnut.com Sun Dec 10 20:55:36 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from web.olypen.com (olypen.com [208.200.248.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA2842BAFB for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 20:55:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from devnu(ppp-214.olypen.com[208.238.207.218]) (1921 bytes) by web.olypen.com via sendmail with P:smtp/R:inet_hosts/T:smtp (sender: ) id for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 17:59:56 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2.0.109 1999-Oct-27 #15 built 1999-Dec-15) From: "Ryan Christensen" To: "Gnome Web List" Subject: RE: So where to from here? Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 17:52:05 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20001210055521.R21071@helixcode.com> X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Don't feel rushed.. we'll stay as long as it takes.. :) Martin.. on your design.. looks pretty nice. Digitect basically took the words out of my mouth on opionion on it.. so I don't think I'll say much else. Ryan > -----Original Message----- > From: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org > [mailto:gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org]On Behalf Of Joakim Ziegler > Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2000 3:55 AM > To: GNOME Web List > Subject: Re: So where to from here? > > > On Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 09:21:38PM +1030, Michael Davies wrote: > > > What's happenning with gnome-web? Are we waiting for Joakim's design > > document? Are we going to get working over the holidays? :-) > > I'm actually writing it now. I've been a little stressed out > lately, but I'm > hoping to have it all done on Sunday evening/night. Please bear with me. > > -- > Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - > Radagast@IRC > FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer > http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-web-list mailing list > gnome-web-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-web-list > From mark@websidestory.com Mon Dec 11 11:29:56 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.websidestory.com (mail1.websidestory.com [208.232.223.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D6672DBA3 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 11:29:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from websidestory.com (mark.websidestory.com [208.232.223.60]) by mail1.websidestory.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id eBBGTsq03452 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 08:29:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A35023E.D150AC99@websidestory.com> Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 08:35:10 -0800 From: Mark Koopman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Gnome Web List Subject: Re: GNOME comp References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> <002a01c062db$37f77ce0$0201a8c0@pc001> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > > Here's one of my ideas so far... > > > > http://www.infovariant.com/mlee/g.gif > This is a beauty! #!/usr/local/bin/perl # Mark Koopman - mark@websidestory.com # Software Engineer # # WebSideStory, Inc # # 10182 Telesis Court # San Diego CA 92121 # 858.546.1182.##.318 # 858.546.0480.fax eval(lc(join('', map ({chr}(q( 49877273766940 80827378843973 32767986693280 69827639463932 39883673434341 ))=~/../g)))); From hedgehog@strogino.ru Mon Dec 11 15:58:30 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from hellfire.strogino.ru (hellfire.strogino.ru [212.45.8.27]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8790E2BB47 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 15:58:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from hedgehog (hedgehog.strogino.bhg.ru [192.168.35.236]) by hellfire.strogino.ru (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA24425 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 23:55:37 +0300 Message-ID: <002601c063b4$4f998c60$ec23a8c0@strogino.bhg.ru> From: "Serguey Kolesov" To: "GNOME-web-list" References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> Subject: Re: GNOME comp Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 23:52:41 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Hello. > Here's one of my ideas so far... > > http://www.infovariant.com/mlee/g.gif Well, I like it. It is not perfect but it is something to start with. And I have a few comments: - Headings "Start with GNOME" and "Develop with GNOME" can be made a bit more readable (a darker colour, maybe?) - The main font (Times or what is it?) is really ugly... what about Arial or something similar? -- Serguey From bill@noreboots.com Mon Dec 11 20:37:50 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from shine.micron.net (shine.micron.net [204.229.122.198]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 894A02D3DF for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:37:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from 10.224.0.198 ([10.224.0.198]) by shine.micron.net (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with SMTP id G5FLV000.A1A for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 18:37:48 -0700 Received: from noreboots.com (ucntcme231.dsl.micron.net [206.207.111.231]) by with SMTP (MailShield v1.5); Mon, 11 Dec 2000 18:37:47 -0700 Message-ID: <3A35814A.A2269CF0@noreboots.com> Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 18:37:14 -0700 From: Bill Anderson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16-22smp i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> <002601c063b4$4f998c60$ec23a8c0@strogino.bhg.ru> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SMTP-HELO: noreboots.com X-SMTP-MAIL-FROM: bill@noreboots.com X-SMTP-PEER-INFO: ucntcme231.dsl.micron.net [206.207.111.231] Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Serguey Kolesov wrote: > > Hello. > > > Here's one of my ideas so far... > > > > http://www.infovariant.com/mlee/g.gif > > Well, I like it. It is not perfect but it is something to start with. And I > have a few comments: > > - Headings "Start with GNOME" and "Develop with GNOME" can be made a bit > more readable (a darker colour, maybe?) Agreed, a darker color _would_ be nice. > > - The main font (Times or what is it?) is really ugly... what about Arial or > something similar? How many Linux users have that font without going through the trouble of adding it? I have it, but then i added a whole lot of TTFs to my system. Something to keep in mind is fon-availability on a default install of a distribution. AFAIK, no distributions currently include truetype fonts. Bill From mark@websidestory.com Mon Dec 11 20:50:08 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.websidestory.com (mail1.websidestory.com [208.232.223.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22BE12D2FD for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:50:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from websidestory.com (mark.websidestory.com [208.232.223.60]) by mail1.websidestory.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id eBC1o7q16492 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 17:50:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A35858E.3339617D@websidestory.com> Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 17:55:26 -0800 From: Mark Koopman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> <002601c063b4$4f998c60$ec23a8c0@strogino.bhg.ru> <3A35814A.A2269CF0@noreboots.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Bill Anderson wrote: > > Serguey Kolesov wrote: > > > > Hello. > > > > > Here's one of my ideas so far... > > > > > > http://www.infovariant.com/mlee/g.gif > > > > Well, I like it. It is not perfect but it is something to start with. And I > > have a few comments: > > > > - Headings "Start with GNOME" and "Develop with GNOME" can be made a bit > > more readable (a darker colour, maybe?) > > Agreed, a darker color _would_ be nice. > > > > > - The main font (Times or what is it?) is really ugly... what about Arial or > > something similar? > > How many Linux users have that font without going through the trouble of > adding it? I have it, but then i added a whole lot of TTFs to my system. > > Something to keep in mind is fon-availability on a default install of a > distribution. AFAIK, no distributions currently include truetype fonts. > > Bill > > I installed an RH6.2 distrib about 6 months that has Arial. Arials been around along time, i think we can expect users have it. i'm sure someone can prove me wrong though :) -- #!/usr/local/bin/perl # Mark Koopman - mark@websidestory.com # Software Engineer # # WebSideStory, Inc # # 10182 Telesis Court # San Diego CA 92121 # 858.546.1182.##.318 # 858.546.0480.fax eval(lc(join('', map ({chr}(q( 49877273766940 80827378843973 32767986693280 69827639463932 39883673434341 ))=~/../g)))); From al593181@mail.mty.itesm.mx Mon Dec 11 21:16:48 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from webmail.mty.itesm.mx (webmail.mty.itesm.mx [131.178.2.83]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4CDA2BAE9 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 21:16:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from felipecg (200.53.168.198) by webmail.mty.itesm.mx (5.1.054) id 3A2724C800027BD5; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:15:19 -0600 Message-ID: <002d01c063e1$d7082300$442cfea9@felipecg> From: "Felipe Contreras" To: "Gnome Web List" , "Mark Koopman" References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> <002601c063b4$4f998c60$ec23a8c0@strogino.bhg.ru> <3A35814A.A2269CF0@noreboots.com> <3A35858E.3339617D@websidestory.com> Subject: Re: GNOME comp Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:18:35 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Koopman" Cc: "GNOME-web-list" Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 7:55 PM Subject: Re: GNOME comp > Bill Anderson wrote: > > > > Serguey Kolesov wrote: > > > > > > Hello. > > > > > > > Here's one of my ideas so far... > > > > > > > > http://www.infovariant.com/mlee/g.gif > > > > > > Well, I like it. It is not perfect but it is something to start with. And I > > > have a few comments: > > > > > > - Headings "Start with GNOME" and "Develop with GNOME" can be made a bit > > > more readable (a darker colour, maybe?) > > > > Agreed, a darker color _would_ be nice. I Agree. > > > > > > > > - The main font (Times or what is it?) is really ugly... what about Arial or > > > something similar? > > > > How many Linux users have that font without going through the trouble of > > adding it? I have it, but then i added a whole lot of TTFs to my system. > > > > Something to keep in mind is fon-availability on a default install of a > > distribution. AFAIK, no distributions currently include truetype fonts. > > > > Bill > > > > > > I installed an RH6.2 distrib about 6 months that has Arial. Arials been > around > along time, i think we can expect users have it. > i'm sure someone can prove me wrong though :) My distro has the Arial font too, but anyway, the Times is not so bad, if you think about standards. So correct me if I'm wrong but I think you can say: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from gio.ingor.upm.es (glo.gio.ingor.upm.es [138.100.17.11]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A87BD2D2E0 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 07:06:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from gio.ingor.upm.es ([138.100.21.98]) by gio.ingor.upm.es (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA08708; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:06:00 +0100 Message-ID: <3A36142A.7020304@gio.ingor.upm.es> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:03:54 +0100 From: "Guille (bisho)" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-6.1.1 i686; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001119 X-Accept-Language: es-es, es, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Koopman Cc: GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> <002601c063b4$4f998c60$ec23a8c0@strogino.bhg.ru> <3A35814A.A2269CF0@noreboots.com> <3A35858E.3339617D@websidestory.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > I installed an RH6.2 distrib about 6 months that has Arial. Arials been > around > along time, i think we can expect users have it. > i'm sure someone can prove me wrong though :) The equivalent of Arial in Unix and Mac machines would be Helvetica. So I would propose to use -- \|||||||/ Guillermo Pérez Pérez < o o > - bisho@onirica.com \ L / - bisho@eurielec.etsit.upm.es -oOOo-------oOOo- From digitect@mindspring.com Tue Dec 12 09:02:14 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from barry.mail.mindspring.net (barry.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.25]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B836D2D286 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:02:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4ci.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.146]) by barry.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA17916 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:02:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001d01c06444$46104900$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: "GNOME-web-list" References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> <002601c063b4$4f998c60$ec23a8c0@strogino.bhg.ru> <3A35814A.A2269CF0@noreboots.com> <3A35858E.3339617D@websidestory.com> <3A36142A.7020304@gio.ingor.upm.es> Subject: Re: GNOME comp Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:03:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > The equivalent of Arial in Unix and Mac machines would be Helvetica. > > So I would propose to use * Am I incorrect in thinking that Arial is a proprietary font, perhaps owned by Microsoft? Unless every major distribution distributes it, I'm completely against using Arial. Helvetica has been on my system since RH 5.1, so I'd be in favor of making that the main font if we're going sans serif. But, frankly, serif fonts are easier to read, although I would agree that they look lower tech. I could easily stand having Times be the default, too. * I think we'd be better off sticking with picking one (serif v. non-serif) and having any particular glyphs come from within that chosen family. Let's not mix and match, it creates the potential of too much range in style. (i.e., "Helvetica", "Times", "Big ol' Outline Font", "Courier") * The font tag was deprecated from the W3C HTML 4.01 standard a few years ago. If we're not going to depend on linked style sheets, the correct way to call out a font (all text being contained within

tags, of course): Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From webmaven@lvcm.com Tue Dec 12 09:35:42 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams3.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.77]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 368002BB92 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:35:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.192.168]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Tue, 12 Dec 2000 06:34:29 -0800 Message-ID: <3A365581.775D5846@lvcm.com> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 08:42:41 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Guille (bisho)" Cc: Mark Koopman , GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> <002601c063b4$4f998c60$ec23a8c0@strogino.bhg.ru> <3A35814A.A2269CF0@noreboots.com> <3A35858E.3339617D@websidestory.com> <3A36142A.7020304@gio.ingor.upm.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work "Guille (bisho)" wrote: > > > I installed an RH6.2 distrib about 6 months that has Arial. Arials been > > around > > along time, i think we can expect users have it. > > i'm sure someone can prove me wrong though :) > > The equivalent of Arial in Unix and Mac machines would be Helvetica. > > So I would propose to use I usually use Michael Bernstein. From fboliv@student.dei.uc.pt Tue Dec 12 10:27:45 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from student.dei.uc.pt (student.dei.uc.pt [193.137.203.231]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 204152CA8C for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:27:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (fboliv@localhost) by student.dei.uc.pt (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBCFLwf15455; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:21:58 GMT Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:21:58 +0000 (WET) From: "Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n)" To: Michael Bernstein Cc: "Guille (bisho)" , Mark Koopman , GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp In-Reply-To: <3A365581.775D5846@lvcm.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Even though some new systems do have True Type fonts installed by default (including Arial), most of the systems do NOT have them, and do use helvetica as the standard font. Therefore i do agree with something like: or possibly (and thinking about the windows users visiting gnome.org (which will be a lot, as they are already)), including verdana, with In my oppinion (and also considering fonts), i think 8pt fonts are a good size for such a web page because they are not too small, but also not big at all, and do fit any resolution nicely from 640x480 to 1900... I'd like to know what you guys think about this size. (Note that this is the equivalent to font size 1) > > > I installed an RH6.2 distrib about 6 months that has Arial. Arials been > > > around > > > along time, i think we can expect users have it. > > > i'm sure someone can prove me wrong though :) > > > > The equivalent of Arial in Unix and Mac machines would be Helvetica. > > So I would propose to use ======================================== Frederico Oliveira - aka kript0n Email: kript0n@boxnetwork.net kript0n@void.box.sk fboliv@student.dei.uc.pt ======================================== From digitect@mindspring.com Tue Dec 12 10:36:04 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from barry.mail.mindspring.net (barry.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.25]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBC2D2CA8C for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:36:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from smui05.slb.mindspring.net (smui05.slb.mindspring.net [199.174.114.91]) by barry.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA27500 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:36:04 -0500 (EST) From: digitect@mindspring.com Received: by smui05.slb.mindspring.net id KAA0000005425; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:36:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:36:04 -0500 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Re: GNOME comp Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: 208.150.104.72 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > I usually use Yikes! Double-dog-ditto my previous comments on Arial for Verdana (proprietary (perhaps even MS), non-standard to most Linux distributions). Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From webmaven@lvcm.com Tue Dec 12 10:40:06 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams3.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.77]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A20B2CA8C for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:40:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.192.168]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Tue, 12 Dec 2000 07:38:29 -0800 Message-ID: <3A366482.47D836D2@lvcm.com> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:46:42 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n)" Cc: "Guille (bisho)" , Mark Koopman , GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work "Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n)" wrote: > > Even though some new systems do have True Type fonts installed by default > (including Arial), most of the systems do NOT have them, and do use > helvetica as the standard font. Therefore i do agree with something like: > > > > or possibly (and thinking about the windows users visiting gnome.org > (which will be a lot, as they are already)), including verdana, with > > Don't forget to add a default type *style* in case NONE of these fonts are available: Michael Bernstein. From jdub@aphid.net Tue Dec 12 10:44:40 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail003.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail003.syd.optusnet.com.au [203.2.75.251]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66C652CA8C for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:44:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (sdcax52-213.dialup.optusnet.com.au [198.142.206.213]) by mail003.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBCFhCw08603 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 02:43:24 +1100 Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 293DC3CA8; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 02:42:50 +1100 (EST) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 02:42:49 +1100 From: Jeff Waugh To: GNOME-web-list Subject: Correct specification of fonts Message-ID: <20001213024249.D3391@aphid.net> Mail-Followup-To: Jeff Waugh , GNOME-web-list References: <3A365581.775D5846@lvcm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from fboliv@student.dei.uc.pt on Tue, Dec 12, 2000 at 03:21:58PM +0000 X-Message: Leenooks, Lienucks, Leenoos, Lienus, Let's call the whole thing off. X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.0-test11 i686 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > a) Best not to specify specific fonts without defining a fallback style. Add "sans-serif" to that list. I must interject though - who cares about fonts at this stage? Shouldn't we be discussing structure? > In my oppinion (and also considering fonts), i think 8pt fonts are a good > size for such a web page because they are not too small, but also not big > at all, and do fit any resolution nicely from 640x480 to 1900... I'd like > to know what you guys think about this size. (Note that this is the > equivalent to font size 1) b) Font sizes should always be specified in web-relative notation, or if you're pushing it, pixels (but very rarely, and only for special purposes). Specifying by point is a big no-no. - Jeff (patiently awaiting Radagast's white paper to pore over) -- jdub@aphid.net --------------------------------- http://linux.conf.au/ -- "Life is short. Forgive quickly. Kiss slowly." - Robert Doisneau From dennisle@swbell.net Tue Dec 12 10:58:59 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.29]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B693F2DC91 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:58:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from swbell.net ([208.191.12.195]) by mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0G5G008S3PMNTA@mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net> for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:56:47 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:56:29 -0700 From: Dennis Lee Subject: Re: GNOME comp To: "Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n)" Cc: Michael Bernstein , "Guille (bisho)" , Mark Koopman , GNOME-web-list Message-id: <3A3658BD.8090608@swbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001018 X-Accept-Language: en References: Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n) wrote: > Even though some new systems do have True Type fonts > <...> > In my oppinion (and also considering fonts), i think 8pt fonts are a good > size for such a web page because they are not too small, but also not big > at all, and do fit any resolution nicely from 640x480 to 1900... I'd like > to know what you guys think about this size. (Note that this is the > equivalent to font size 1) _Please_ do not spec some tiny size font (like 8 point)! Fonts to small to read are one of the first complaints I hear about surfing with Linux. Sure spec-ing a font size can make page lay out pleasing to look at. But it is more importaint that our customers are able to read the page. Leave font size out of the css or the pages markup; all font size will do is cause grief, so many system display font sizes differently that font size is a bad can of rotten worms we can do with out. Dennis > >>>> I installed an RH6.2 distrib about 6 months that has Arial. Arials been >>>> around >>>> along time, i think we can expect users have it. >>>> i'm sure someone can prove me wrong though :) >>> >>> The equivalent of Arial in Unix and Mac machines would be Helvetica. >>> So I would propose to use >> From fboliv@student.dei.uc.pt Tue Dec 12 11:17:35 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from student.dei.uc.pt (student.dei.uc.pt [193.137.203.231]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CA4F2DCF9 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:17:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (fboliv@localhost) by student.dei.uc.pt (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBCG9ZA00896; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:09:35 GMT Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:09:35 +0000 (WET) From: "Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n)" To: Michael Bernstein Cc: "Guille (bisho)" , Mark Koopman , GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp In-Reply-To: <3A366482.47D836D2@lvcm.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Michael Bernstein wrote: > "Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n)" wrote: > > > > Even though some new systems do have True Type fonts installed by default > > (including Arial), most of the systems do NOT have them, and do use > > helvetica as the standard font. Therefore i do agree with something like: > > > > > > > > or possibly (and thinking about the windows users visiting gnome.org > > (which will be a lot, as they are already)), including verdana, with > > > > > > Don't forget to add a default type *style* in case NONE of > these fonts are available: > > > > Michael Bernstein. > True, thanks for the correction. How do you guys feel about 8pt or size 1 fonts? I'd like to hear about that. ======================================== Frederico Oliveira - aka kript0n Email: kript0n@boxnetwork.net kript0n@mail.box.sk fboliv@student.dei.uc.pt irc.box.sk:6667 -> #neworder ========================================= From webmaven@lvcm.com Tue Dec 12 11:21:11 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams3.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.77]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F23B2DF32 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:21:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.192.168]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Tue, 12 Dec 2000 08:22:02 -0800 Message-ID: <3A366EB7.116C8A5@lvcm.com> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:30:15 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: digitect@mindspring.com Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME comp References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work digitect@mindspring.com wrote: > > > I usually use > > Yikes! Double-dog-ditto my previous comments on Arial for Verdana (proprietary (perhaps even MS), non-standard to most Linux distributions). While it is true that Verdana is an MS product, it is free (though not Free). It has the advantage of being one of the few high-quality typefaces specifically designed for screen resolutions (which increases legibility). Specifying it in this way IN NO WAY introduces a dependency on the typeface. It will simply be used preferentially if available. Anyone who has gone to the trouble of adding it to THEIR SYSTEM will appreciate the attention to detail, and those who have not will not have their experience degraded in any way. I would however draw the line at stating on the site "This site best viewed using MS Verdana" ;-) That would be wrong :-) Michael Bernstein. P.S. The Gnome Foundation could commission a professional type designer (probably for about 30k or so) to design Free high-quality Serif and Sans-Serif typefaces, but this isn't something that will happen soon. I think Mathew Carter (Verdana's designer) spent a year designing Verdana for Microsoft. As a candidate designer, Zusana Licko comes to mind: http://www.emigre.com/bios/zlicko.html From webmaven@lvcm.com Tue Dec 12 11:29:01 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams1.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.75]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E9922DF32 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:29:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.192.168]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Tue, 12 Dec 2000 08:32:28 -0800 Message-ID: <3A367077.59D0646E@lvcm.com> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:37:43 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeff Waugh Cc: GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: Correct specification of fonts References: <3A365581.775D5846@lvcm.com> <20001213024249.D3391@aphid.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Jeff Waugh wrote: > > I must interject though - who cares about fonts at this stage? Shouldn't we > be discussing structure? I would, but my position (that structure should be primarily subject-oriented) has proved unpopular, and it seems that the site structure is going to be task-oriented instead. So I don't have a lot to contribute to that discussion. Michael Bernstein. From fboliv@student.dei.uc.pt Tue Dec 12 11:30:38 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from student.dei.uc.pt (student.dei.uc.pt [193.137.203.231]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A45972D43B for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:30:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (fboliv@localhost) by student.dei.uc.pt (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBCGEgC02403; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:14:42 GMT Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:14:42 +0000 (WET) From: "Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n)" To: Dennis Lee Cc: Michael Bernstein , "Guille (bisho)" , Mark Koopman , GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp In-Reply-To: <3A3658BD.8090608@swbell.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Dennis Lee wrote: > _Please_ do not spec some tiny size font (like 8 point)! > Fonts to small to read are one of the first complaints I hear about > surfing with Linux. As a matter of fact, 8 pt is not small (i have designed a page's CSS (check http://geek.box.sk) with 8pt and it fits both *nix browsers (read netscape) and windows browsers (read netscape [again] and ie). However i don't think discussing font size is the most important thing to do at the moment. We should in fact be discussing things like the layout other than smaller details such as this one. Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n) Box Network Administration (www.boxnetwork.net) From digitect@mindspring.com Tue Dec 12 11:49:36 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53E302DCD0 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:49:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from smui02.slb.mindspring.net (smui02.slb.mindspring.net [199.174.114.25]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA05561 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:49:35 -0500 (EST) From: digitect@mindspring.com Received: by smui02.slb.mindspring.net id LAA0000030936; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:49:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:49:35 -0500 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Re: Correct specification of fonts Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: 208.150.104.72 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > Michael Bernstein wrote: > > digitect@mindspring.com wrote: > > > > > I usually use > sans-serif"> > > > > Yikes! Double-dog-ditto my previous comments on Arial > for Verdana (proprietary (perhaps even MS), non-standard > to most Linux distributions). > > While it is true that Verdana is an MS product, it is free > (though not Free). It has the advantage of being one of the > few high-quality typefaces specifically designed for screen > resolutions (which increases legibility). Specifying it in > this way IN NO WAY introduces a dependency on the typeface. > It will simply be used preferentially if available. Anyone > who has gone to the trouble of adding it to THEIR SYSTEM > will appreciate the attention to detail, and those who have > not will not have their experience degraded in any way. > > I would however draw the line at stating on the site "This > site best viewed using MS Verdana" ;-) That would be wrong > :-) While I appreciate the so-called "browserness" of Verdana, I find it a very wide font, which means that it spools paragraphs of text farther down the page and make navigation titles return into two lines. Again, I am very opposed to using non-standard (not to mention proprietary fonts and would hope we could use the serif or sans-serif font family instead. If we MUST use specific glyphs, I prefer: 1. Times 2. Helvetica 3. Arial 4. Tahoma (thinner than Verdana) Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From digitect@mindspring.com Tue Dec 12 11:50:29 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mclean.mail.mindspring.net (mclean.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.57]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DD992CE2D for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:50:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from smui02.slb.mindspring.net (smui02.slb.mindspring.net [199.174.114.25]) by mclean.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA13568 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:50:26 -0500 (EST) From: digitect@mindspring.com Received: by smui02.slb.mindspring.net id LAA0000032505; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:50:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:50:25 -0500 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Correct specification of fonts Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: 208.150.104.72 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > Michael Bernstein wrote: > > Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > > I must interject though - who cares about fonts at this stage? Shouldn't we > > be discussing structure? > > I would, but my position (that structure should be primarily > subject-oriented) has proved unpopular, and it seems that > the site structure is going to be task-oriented instead. So > I don't have a lot to contribute to that discussion. > > Michael Bernstein. > Michael, I completely agree with you on this (which explains my recent font discussion contributions, too) but I haven't given up on using a subjective structure yet. (I always wonder if list decisions are made by consensus or verbosity.) From mlee@andrews.edu Tue Dec 12 11:57:45 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from andrews.edu (roonwit.cs.andrews.edu [143.207.1.21]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FB052CE2D for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:57:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from orion.cc.andrews.edu (orion.cc.andrews.edu [143.207.5.12]) by roonwit.cs.andrews.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA24129; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:57:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by orion.cc.andrews.edu (8.8.8+Sun) id LAA12435; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:57:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:57:31 -0500 (EST) From: Martin Lee To: Jeff Waugh Cc: GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: Correct specification of fonts In-Reply-To: <20001213024249.D3391@aphid.net> Message-ID: <%yOlN64AKE@orion.cc.andrews.edu> X-Mailer: Fir 4.0beta (SunOS) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > I must interject though - who cares about fonts at this stage? Shouldn't we > be discussing structure? Very true. Although there needs to be some thought as to the font, I think that the site should be designed first and a font chosen because it works well with the design and is part of the design. If sans-serif goes with the design, then use sans-serif. Font selection should be an implementation of the design. > > > In my oppinion (and also considering fonts), i think 8pt fonts are a good > > size for such a web page because they are not too small, but also not big > > at all, and do fit any resolution nicely from 640x480 to 1900... I'd like > > to know what you guys think about this size. (Note that this is the > > equivalent to font size 1) I preffer to use px sizes when using font styles, and find that some smaller font sizes will view fine (although small) in IE, but are close to unreadable in Netscape. I find that 10px - 12px is usually a good size - depending on what the content is. I think however, we should be focusing on brainstorming ideas for navagation, navagation items, page elements, layout, and the flow of the site. When I made up the comp (http://www.infovariant.com/mlee/g.gif) I wasn't sure what links we would need and what important information needs to be profiled on the from page. Design will be much easier once this is known. The layout I have separates the navagation into two separate types - beginner (a person new to GNOME, member of the press, windows users etc...) and expert (developer, gnome fanatic, regular users that are familiar with linux). This navigation is quite prominent on the home page, but once the user goes to a subpage, the navigation and logo will shrink to the top and side to minimize page real-estate used, giving more focus on the content. Anyway, that's my thought for the morning. From tslukka@alpha.hut.fi Tue Dec 12 13:38:08 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from relay1-us.simplemente.net (relay1.us.simplemente.net [216.167.121.82]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF8A42BB92 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:38:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from tiku.hut.fi (tiku.hut.fi [130.233.228.86]) by relay1-us.simplemente.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE97ED782A for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:38:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from alpha.hut.fi (tslukka@alpha.hut.fi [130.233.224.50]) by tiku.hut.fi (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA28669 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 20:37:56 +0200 (EET) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 20:37:56 +0200 (EET) From: Tuomo Lukka To: GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n) wrote: > On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Dennis Lee wrote: > > > _Please_ do not spec some tiny size font (like 8 point)! > > Fonts to small to read are one of the first complaints I hear about > > surfing with Linux. > > As a matter of fact, 8 pt is not small (i have designed a page's CSS > (check http://geek.box.sk) with 8pt and it fits both *nix browsers (read > netscape) and windows browsers (read netscape [again] and ie). Are you trying to say that "http://geek.box.sk/" is not using small font ?? I have RedHat 6.1 + Netscape 4.7x running on 1024 * 768 display, and this is how I see your web-page: http://titanic.tky.hut.fi/images/font_shot.jpg Please, take a look and remenber that even though it is possible that my system is "corrupt", I am using all settings a they were left after installing the whole thingie and probably there are also others who see this page like me.. So, please don't use small fonts, they are impossible to read some of us. Tuomo Lukka PS: If someone can tell why the hell my browser shows the page like that, please tell me! -------------------------------------------------------------------- In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded. Big Bang Theory. ********** *** The Web : http://titanic.tky.hut.fi/ ********** *** (http://www.iki.fi/luigi/) *** *** E-Mail : Luigi@iki.fi [Use this] *** *** *** *** Tel. : 09-4683042 [Home] *** ******** : 040-5389759 [Mobile] *** * ******** : 010-5322196 [Work] -------------------------------------------------------------------- From john@backspace.com Tue Dec 12 14:15:59 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1EDC2DDE2 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:15:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from [63.27.34.20] (1Cust20.tnt8.nyc3.da.uu.net [63.27.34.20]) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA16114 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:15:53 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: john@mail.backspace.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:28:54 -0500 To: GNOME-web-list From: John Emerson Subject: another GNOME comp Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work I like Martin's 4 quadrant idea, but I'm not sure how it would extend to other sections of the site. Also, it does seem a bit premature to be putting together comps without a finalized structure. Any news on that document, Joakim? Is there anything we can do to help? In any case, here's a comp of my own: http://backspace.com/gnome1.gif (I couldn't find the proper font for the GNOME title, but you get the general idea.) - John From wkurdzio@cslab.vt.edu Tue Dec 12 14:33:21 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from labrador.cslab.vt.edu (labrador.cslab.vt.edu [198.82.184.22]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FB152BB92 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:33:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from lemon.cslab.vt.edu (lemon.cslab.vt.edu [198.82.184.69]) by labrador.cslab.vt.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA21657 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:32:46 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wkurdzio@cslab.vt.edu) Received: from localhost (wkurdzio@localhost) by lemon.cslab.vt.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA13790 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:30:37 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wkurdzio@lemon.cslab.vt.edu) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:30:37 -0500 (EST) From: Wes Kurdziolek To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Small font sizes while browsing in Linux Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Netscape typically renders fonts two points smaller than specified, so 10pt is a good selection -- not too big in IE and Konquerer and not too small in Netscape. FYI: If you think your fonts are too small in X, make sure your 100dpi font directories are listed before your 75dpi font directories in your XF86Config file. -- Wes Kurdziolek Virginia Tech Computer Science Lab UNIX System Administrator E-mail: wkurdzio@cslab.vt.edu Voice: +1 (540) 231-3457 Office: 116A McBryde From dennisle@swbell.net Tue Dec 12 14:44:43 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.29]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DED12E0B7 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:44:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from swbell.net ([208.191.12.195]) by mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0G5G00KYCZCP4I@mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net> for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:26:50 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:26:33 -0700 From: Dennis Lee Subject: Re: GNOME comp To: Tuomo Lukka Cc: GNOME-web-list Message-id: <3A3689F9.9090105@swbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001018 X-Accept-Language: en References: Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Tuomo Lukka wrote: > On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n) wrote: > > >> On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Dennis Lee wrote: >> >> >>> _Please_ do not spec some tiny size font (like 8 point)! >>> Fonts to small to read are one of the first complaints I hear about >>> surfing with Linux. >> >> As a matter of fact, 8 pt is not small (i have designed a page's CSS >> (check http://geek.box.sk) with 8pt and it fits both *nix browsers (read >> netscape) and windows browsers (read netscape [again] and ie). > > > Are you trying to say that "http://geek.box.sk/" is not using small font ?? > I have RedHat 6.1 + Netscape 4.7x running on 1024 * 768 display, and this > is how I see your web-page: http://titanic.tky.hut.fi/images/font_shot.jpg > > Please, take a look and remenber that even though it is possible that my > system is "corrupt", I am using all settings a they were left after > installing the whole thingie and probably there are also others who see > this page like me.. So, please don't use small fonts, they are impossible > to read some of us. > Tuomo Lukka > > PS: If someone can tell why the hell my browser shows the page like that, > please tell me! There is nothing wrong with your system. Thats just the best Netscape 4.7 can display such a small font; at that display resultion; mine looks the same and I have true type fonts installed. There are some things you could to do in order to read the page, but why, it is the web site thats broken in my book. This is the kind of thing we can avoid by not setting a font size. Dennis From john@backspace.com Wed Dec 13 00:11:01 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtppop3pub.verizon.net (smtppop3pub.gte.net [206.46.170.22]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94E8A2D1D3 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 00:11:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net (smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.39.156]) by smtppop3pub.verizon.net with ESMTP for ; id XAA76968712 Tue, 12 Dec 2000 23:06:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from [151.202.83.231] (adsl-151-202-83-231.nyc.adsl.bellatlantic.net [151.202.83.231]) by smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA28372 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 00:10:28 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: john@mail.backspace.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 00:23:33 -0500 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org From: John Emerson Subject: another GNOME comp, 2 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work This one with a little more color: http://backspace.com/gnome2.gif - John From digitect@mindspring.com Wed Dec 13 00:18:24 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from hall.mail.mindspring.net (hall.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.60]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C599F2D1D3 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 00:18:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4d1.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.161]) by hall.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA02867; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 00:18:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <007601c064c4$40ccb8e0$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: , "John Emerson" References: Subject: Re: another GNOME comp, 2 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 00:19:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > This one with a little more color: > http://backspace.com/gnome2.gif I like your previous one better. How about the GNOME warm gray instead of the yellow? From robin@noname4us.com Wed Dec 13 00:51:41 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from first.noname4us.com (first.noname4us.com [212.247.87.60]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4088F2D1D3 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 00:51:41 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 4552 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2000 05:52:00 -0000 Received: from robin.int.noname4us.com (HELO sarah.) (192.168.128.12) by first.noname4us.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 2000 05:52:00 -0000 From: Robin Ericsson Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 05:51:31 GMT Message-ID: <20001213.5513100@sarah.> Subject: Re: another GNOME comp, 2 To: John Emerson Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mozilla/3.0 (compatible; StarOffice/5.2;Linux) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On 12/13/00, 6:23:33 AM, John Emerson wrote regardi= ng=20 another GNOME comp, 2: > This one with a little more color: > http://backspace.com/gnome2.gif I prefer this layout before the other one, but colors and stuff is to = early to decide I think...=20 R. From mandreiana@rdsnet.ro Wed Dec 13 03:02:40 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail.rdsnet.ro (mail.rdsnet.ro [193.231.236.16]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 18C1D2DF4D for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 03:02:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 18700 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2000 08:04:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO rdsnet.ro) (212.93.133.179) by mail.rdsnet.ro with SMTP; 13 Dec 2000 08:04:14 -0000 Message-ID: <3A372D1B.8F0C12C7@rdsnet.ro> Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 10:02:35 +0200 From: Marius Andreiana Organization: Web Development Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: Correct specification of fonts References: <3A365581.775D5846@lvcm.com> <20001213024249.D3391@aphid.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > > > Aren't cascading stylesheets used for fonts, colors, etc, stored in a separate file ? Shouldn't use tag at all, only CSS. -- Marius Andreiana From fboliv@student.dei.uc.pt Wed Dec 13 04:53:04 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from student.dei.uc.pt (student.dei.uc.pt [193.137.203.231]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5D612CE26 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 04:52:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (fboliv@localhost) by student.dei.uc.pt (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBD9oTl09546; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:50:29 GMT Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:50:28 +0000 (WET) From: "Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n)" To: Dennis Lee Cc: Tuomo Lukka , GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp In-Reply-To: <3A3689F9.9090105@swbell.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > PS: If someone can tell why the hell my browser shows the page like that, > > please tell me! > > There is nothing wrong with your system. Thats just the best Netscape > 4.7 can display such a small font; at that display resultion; mine looks > the same and I have true type fonts installed. There are some things you > could to do in order to read the page, but why, it is the web site thats > broken in my book. > > This is the kind of thing we can avoid by not setting a font size. Well, as a matter of fact, you do see it small, but it is a netscape navigator limitation. You guys could try and set font sizes between -1 and 7 on a test page and tell me which one looks good on 4.7 (imho, none does actually look good). And notice that true type fonts are not the deal here (remember that not everybody on *nix has a true type font server by default). About the "broken in my book" part.. heh, what book? and who broke it? :) Oh, mornings are like this... -- Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n) Box Network (www.boxnetwork.net) Admin and Webmaster From fboliv@student.dei.uc.pt Wed Dec 13 04:55:58 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from student.dei.uc.pt (student.dei.uc.pt [193.137.203.231]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71E452CE26 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 04:55:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (fboliv@localhost) by student.dei.uc.pt (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBD9sgq09963; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:54:42 GMT Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:54:42 +0000 (WET) From: "Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n)" To: Marius Andreiana Cc: GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: Correct specification of fonts In-Reply-To: <3A372D1B.8F0C12C7@rdsnet.ro> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Marius Andreiana wrote: > Aren't cascading stylesheets used for fonts, colors, etc, stored in a > separate file ? > Shouldn't use tag at all, only CSS. Of course we should use CSS. But thats not actually the point at this moment. The point is choosing an acceptable font that displays nicely on every OS and browser. So don't actually worry much about tags because they probably won't exist. Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n) Box Network (www.boxnetwork.net) Admin and Webmaster From menthos@menthos.com Wed Dec 13 12:09:25 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from kobra.efd.lth.se (kobra.efd.lth.se [130.235.34.36]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D69782E043 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 12:09:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from menthos.com (E405.sparta.lu.se [194.47.241.12]) by kobra.efd.lth.se (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id eBDH9N913526 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 18:09:23 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <3A37AD70.8080103@menthos.com> Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 18:10:08 +0100 From: Christian Rose User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16-22 i686; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001205 X-Accept-Language: sv, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Correct specification of fonts References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Maybe not using pixels or points but the non-specific sizes that CSS provides is somewhat "cleaner" (http://www.eskimo.com/%7Ebloo/indexdot/css/properties/font/fontsize.htm). Of course, it is still a question if we should use "medium", "small", or "x-small". In my personal experience, many developing only for Windows are using "xx-small" but that is completely unreadable on Linux with default settings. "x-small" or "small" are readable though. "medium" is probably too big. Christian Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n) wrote: >> Aren't cascading stylesheets used for fonts, colors, etc, stored in a >> separate file ? >> Shouldn't use tag at all, only CSS. > > Of course we should use CSS. But thats not actually the point at this > moment. The point is choosing an acceptable font that displays nicely on > every OS and browser. So don't actually worry much about tags > because they probably won't exist. From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Wed Dec 13 15:50:34 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 648632E46E for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 15:50:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id OAA184382 (8.9.1/50); Wed, 13 Dec 2000 14:49:55 -0600 Message-Id: <200012132049.OAA184382@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: another GNOME comp, 2 From: Ryan Muldoon To: John Emerson Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 14 Dec 2000 00:51:12 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work This design is a nice generic website design, but it has nothing saying "This is GNOME" Gnome has a fairly well-defined aesthetic that the site needs to represent. There is a GNOME palette, and gnome-looking graphics. We should keep this in mind. --Ryan > > This one with a little more color: > http://backspace.com/gnome2.gif > > > - John > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-web-list mailing list > gnome-web-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-web-list 9 From sopwith@redhat.com Wed Dec 13 16:03:20 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (host156.207-175-42.redhat.com [207.175.42.156]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E22552BC26 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 16:03:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (sopwith@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBDL3JH15517 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 16:03:19 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: devserv.devel.redhat.com: sopwith owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 16:03:18 -0500 (EST) From: Elliot Lee X-Sender: To: Subject: Re: another GNOME comp, 2 In-Reply-To: <200012132049.OAA184382@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On 14 Dec 2000, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > There is a GNOME palette, and gnome-looking graphics. Since when? There is only tradition, and tradition can be changed at will (for precedent, look at the latest www.gnome.org, which used none of the "brown" colors of previous web sites). Let your imagination run wild, -- Elliot "The Pythagorean Theorem employed 24 words, the Lord's Prayer has 66 words, Archimedes Principle has 67 words, the 10 Commandments have 179 words, the Gettysburg Address had 286 words, the Declaration of Independence, 1,300 words and finally the European Commission's regulation on the sale of cabbage: 26,911 words." From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Wed Dec 13 16:42:06 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3BA52E4AD for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 16:39:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id PAA200176 (8.9.1/50); Wed, 13 Dec 2000 15:39:13 -0600 Message-Id: <200012132139.PAA200176@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: another GNOME comp, 2 From: Ryan Muldoon To: Elliot Lee Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 14 Dec 2000 01:40:30 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > On 14 Dec 2000, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > > > There is a GNOME palette, and gnome-looking graphics. > > Since when? > > There is only tradition, and tradition can be changed at will (for > precedent, look at the latest www.gnome.org, which used none of the > "brown" colors of previous web sites). > > Let your imagination run wild, Sure, there are no official GNOME colors. But there is a tradition. Personally, I really don't like the colors of the current website, or the blue swoosh things, or the "computing made easy". Why? It didn't make me think of GNOME. Look at Apple's website. Or Microsoft's. Or Be's. All of them have an interface that is similar to that of the GUI. To me, that is a good thing. I think Helixcode's website does an excellent job of this - gnome.org should strive to do the same. The website should be pushing the platform - to do that, you need to show the "mood" of gnome. To me, part of gnome's appeal is its aesthetic. Maybe I'm alone in that. In my experience designing websites, those that are successful push the mood of the content. The framework should be so good, it is transparent to the user. --Ryan From gbreland@healthtech.net Wed Dec 13 10:06:54 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from ahtmail.healthtech.net (mail.healthtech.net [208.137.134.227]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF5432E27A for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 10:06:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by AHTMAIL with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:01:58 -0600 Message-ID: <102E310E554DD411B9BC006008F6053C079536@AHTMAIL> From: Greg Breland To: GNOME-web-list Subject: RE: Correct specification of fonts Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:01:58 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Why do we have to find a font that displays nicely on each browser. Why not have browser detect code that will deliver the correct CSS to each browser? This will be important to make the page accessible by lynx, IE3,IE$, NN4 and such. Then have a generic CCS1-2 for IE5.x, NN6.x, Opera Basically, the pages would be usable by older browsers, but might not look the best. This does not include the front page, which needs to look consistent in each browser. Once you get away from the front page and into the content, accessibility is more important than consistent appearance as long as the appearance is readable. Greg > ..... The point is choosing an acceptable font that > displays nicely on > every OS and browser. So don't actually worry much about tags > because they probably won't exist. From john@backspace.com Wed Dec 13 23:55:22 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net (smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.39.156]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E49CE2E149 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 23:55:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from [151.202.183.68] (adsl-151-202-183-68.nyc.adsl.bellatlantic.net [151.202.183.68]) by smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA28205 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 23:55:16 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: john@mail.backspace.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 00:08:24 -0500 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org From: John Emerson Subject: another GNOME comp, 3 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Here's a little more GNOME'ish: http://backspace.com/gnome3.gif I know, I know, it says "Get GNOME" three times... but this is all just brainstorming while we wait for a finalized structure. - John From digitect@mindspring.com Thu Dec 14 01:03:39 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B2732BCDC for ; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 01:03:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf2re.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.139.110]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA30664 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 01:03:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <025001c06593$964cfe40$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: Subject: Structure v.0.1-5 (estimate) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 01:03:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Ok, you guys are going to shoot me for this verbosity, but since discussion on structure has waned a bit lately, I thought I'd toss in my list to date. Below is basically an exhaustive collection of our statements up until now along with my editorial comments at no extra charge. (Well, you do have to read them. ;) Not trying to step on Joakim's forthcoming proposal, just thought it would be helpful to revisit the content list in the meantime. As I've droned before, my feelings are to aim the site at two main groups: Users and the Developer Community... ______________________________________________________________________ USER - Assumes the user has a system with GNOME already installed and properly maintained via distribution installation, a System Administrator or a third party commercial delivery system such as HelixCode or Eazel. Or perhaps a Windows user just wanting to know what Linux is and ended up here because our art is cool. Probably not interested in joining the GNOME community yet, just wants productivity from the desktop. Enough educational/marketing material needs to exist here to enable the later transition to contributor if desired. * Introduction (What is GNOME?) - Intro Docs - A few important documents here like "What is a desktop?" and "Is it like Windows?" - Screenshots - Bugs - I've found a bug, what do I do? (Great opportunity to expose the developer side.) * Headlines - Information and articles of general interest only. Things like "Number of GNOME users increasing" and "Bob explains metathemeing." * Help/UsrDocs - Quick start - GNOME users guide - Tutorials - Links . GNU . HelixCode/Easel/etc. . Themes - Published books * Press/Marketing - Lecture circuit - Other appearances (Radio, TV, print) - Calendar * Support - Here's where we fork into the Commercial v. do it yourself (developer.gnome.org) argument and begin to present the user with the benefits of rolling his own. (Leads naturally onto the Developer side.) * (Download) - Shouldn't exist on the user side. Reasoning: Does GNOME really want to distribute software for the average or newbie user? I doubt that we will ever have the resources or desire to create a delivery system as useful or efficient as the commercial companies for a typical user. Why go to all the trouble? Although I believe that GNOME should always be available from the GNOME site (!), I think we will do better explaining how the basic desktop components work for the user here and point experienced users to the Developer side to obtain specific rpms and src files for the extended range of software. We need to focus on helping the user with the core desktop (calculator, calendar, applets, etc.) and all of this stuff will probably be installed for him already. Remember, he doesn't have root access and isn't capable of compiling source anyway. ______________________________________________________________________ DEVELOPER COMMUNITY - Perhaps this is where our community really begins. Up until this point, the user is interested in just getting GNOME to work and finding out what it can do. But if he's impressed enough to dig deeper, and perhaps tries a dual boot installation on his home computer, then he'll need the support of the larger community. To me, that's entry level on the developer side which then expands to the full depth. * News (Developer) - Software update list - Gnotices - Project of the week * Docs, Developer - Contribution - Philosophical stuff only, directs through to projects (below) - White papers - FAQs - Mailing lists - Newsgroups/Threads? * Contacts - Developers (Advogado-like?) - Mail contact - IRC * Software map - Flexible listing by date, category, authors, etc. - CVS * Bug management - perhaps attached to the software database? * Projects/Communities - Components - GTK+ - Glade - Pango - Gimp - Office - GDP - UI Hitsquad - Sound - Icons - Graphics - Advocacy - Testing - Translation * Foundation stuff - charter - foundation meeting minutes - board members, with contact info - advisory board info - application form for membership From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Thu Dec 14 11:59:21 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8F0B2BABE for ; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 11:59:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 146biu-0005dn-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 17:59:17 +0100 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 11:56:57 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Design document [Draft 1] Message-ID: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work So, here's the much anticipated design document draft. There are a couple of pieces missing, and it'll require quite a bit of discussion, but I think I've created something that will be a decent starting point. When replying, please consider trimming extensively, just quoting the exact pieces you're commenting on, and try to keep it compact. This thread can get very extensive if we don't. Also, if you have several long comments to different parts, consider replying in two different mails. ----- GNOME WEBSITES - DESIGN DOCUMENT Draft 1 Joakim Ziegler TABLE OF CONTENTS 1. Introduction 2. Audience and goals 3. Navigation structure/usability 4. Graphical design 5. Localization 6. Technology 1. Introduction This is a draft design document for the GNOME websites. It's based on the discussion on gnome-web-list@gnome.org, as well as my own personal suggestions/preferences. Don't take things here as written in stone, this is mostly intended as a starting point for discussion. The structure of the document is fairly general, and is designed to accommodate most changes, so we won't have to go around changing the actual structure, just the content of the sections. It's a lot easier that way. 2. Audience and goals The GNOME websites span a rather large range of audiences (and corresponding goals), including users, developers, members of the press, representatives of companies considering supporting GNOME, and so on. The goals can be broken down as follows: 2.1 Marketing GNOME One of the primary goals of the GNOME websites, specifically www.gnome.org, is to market GNOME towards people who don't have it installed yet. Even though GNOME is well on its way to becoming a de facto standard desktop environment for GNU/Linux users, there is still a rather large group out there who are not yet using it (not to mention all the users of other Unices, as well as Windows and MacOS). Primary tools for doing this is the www.gnome.org frontpage (body text), as well as sections specifically designed to market GNOME to new users (the "Find out what GNOME is" section of the current site is a good example, although there should be more). 2.2 Providing GNOME news There is a lot happening in the GNOME community, and people want a place to get informed about the latest news. news.gnome.org fills this function rather well, but currently suffers from being poorly integrated with the rest of the GNOME sites (visually and content-wise). The base features of the current news.gnome.org are good, though: Posting of articles with followup discussion, along the lines of Slashdot. 2.3 Informing users Users need a wide variety of information. New users should have easy access to introductory documentation, tutorials, installation howtos, FAQs and so on. More experienced users should be able to find detailed documentation, troubleshooting guides, pointers to software of different types, etc. The user-oriented documentation could possibly be arranged around where the user is in the GNOME pipeline: Getting ready to install - Installing - Running it the first time - Learning to use it efficiently - Getting more software. 2.4 Educating developers developer.gnome.org is the prime resource for GNOME developer information. Since we're also managing the www.gtk.org assets, we're in a rather unique position to make developer.gnome.org into a one-stop site for all g-prefixed development information. Most of the current content is excellent, although it could benefit from somewhat better organization and navigational structure. Types of content: Technology overviews/whitepapers, tutorials, API docs, high-level guidelines. 2.5 Informing the press GNOME is getting massive press coverage lately. Even when our handling of press contacts has been low quality, slow, or non-existent, we've gotten excellent press. It's clear that we could get even more press coverage if we were slightly more aggressive in our handling of these matters. At the moment, our press resources mainly consists of a list of e-mail addresses, one for general press inquiries, a couple of corporate ones, and some for press contacts local to specific countries. Ideally, we should have a complete press kit online. It should include all the stuff journalists normally ask for when they contact gnome-press-contact@gnome.org, such as a brief description and history of the project, the structure of the GNOME foundation, representative screenshots, publicity shots of central people in the organization, and so on. 2.6 Informing ISVs and other corporate entities We've traditionally been rather bad at addressing the information needs of corporate entities specifcally. They've mostly been forced to browse the standard information on the site, and then post their inquiries to mailing lists. While the information needs of companies vary a lot, we should at least make an effort to address their basic needs. Information about the GNOME foundation advisory board, companies currently working with and supporting GNOME, and so on will be helpful. Generally, this is about marketing GNOME to potential corporate backers, as well as informing them. 3. Navigation structure/usability The navigational structure for the GNOME sites is by no means a given. There has been a lot of discussion, particularly about the top-level division of areas, where there have been suggestions for task-oriented, user group oriented, and subject oriented navigation, as well as variations over these three basic themes. My current proposal is to use a task/subject hybrid structure, with user group oriented navigation as an alternative method of access. That is, the main categories of the navigation tree are task/subject oriented, and we present a small menu in a sidebar or similar on the frontpage for users to navigate by user group, which leads to one page per user group, with a collection of links that's relevant for that group. That still leaves the problem of creating the top-level categories. It's very easy to either overspecialize the categories, and end up with too many (anything over 10-12 is too many, in reality) or create too broad categories that are unintuitive. I created 12 categories which I believe are rather intuitive for the user, and span all the information we want to place on the GNOME sites. I've not created the actual structure beneath each toplevel category, as I think it's not entirely clear yet what things we actually *want*, however I believe this structure is general enough that it'll be able to hold whatever we want to put into it. The order of this list might be illogical. 3.1 Top-level structure About Introductory documents. Mainly for those unfamiliar with GNOME in general, and who want a quick way to figure out what this is all about. Includes the a "What is GNOME" document, the general GNOME FAQ, and also documents for companies interested in supporting GNOME, the project roadmap, etc. Screenshots An important link to have on the front page, since this is what a lot of people look for. Idea for structure: Split it up into several different types of screenshots, like "Basic", "Businesslike", "Applications", "Oddities", etc. Perhaps make screenshots imagemaps which can be clicked to bring you to the appindex page of each displayed application? Get it Describe the various ways to get and install GNOME. CVS, GNOME FTP servers, Linux distributions which include GNOME, and Helix GNOME would all be relevant pointers here. It's a matter of resources how much we want to actually support all of this, but we should at least have instructions for how to get, build and install GNOME from CVS and GNOME FTP. Support How to get help with GNOME. All the documentation should be here, as well as pointers to mailing lists, bugzilla, IRC channels, etc. News Gnotices in some shape or form. Basically newsitems with discussion. Software A revamped, expanded version of the Appindex. Should let you search for software in a variety of ways, including category, file types it'll read and write (very practical for all the people who come onto IRC and say "What GNOME program can read a .foo file?", and so on. Possibly also an equivalence index, where people can say "I need something like Outlook", and it'll take you to Evolution. Developer Entry for the developer minded. Basically the combined content of today's developer.gnome.org and www.gtk.org. Press All the info members of the press would need to represent GNOME in a correct manner. Journalists work under time constraints, so this is where we have the chance to give them all the info they need in one neat package. Should include a press kit (possibly in PDF format), a list of contact mail addresses and phone numbers (I know, phone numbers are so 1985, but some journalists prefer them), press photos (preferably, each press contact listed should have a downloadable high-resolution photo for the press to use when interviewing), representative screenshots (of the nice and simple variety), and so on. The press kit itself should be a brief presentation of GNOME, talking about the project history, the foundation, the current status, what corporate backers there are, etc. Foundation All the formal stuff about the foundation, how a company can join the advisory board, current board of directors, board meeting minutes, and so on. The exact content of this section should be up to the people more directly involved with the foundation, I believe. Contact Ways to contact the GNOME project and the members, for various purposes. This should definitely be broken down by task, so that bug reports can be directed to bugzilla, press inquiries to the press section, etc. Events An events calendar, listing upcoming tradeshows where GNOME will be present, as well as scheduled upcoming releases. People Developer index, developer interviews (I'd like to resurrect that section, even though I only ever did one interview, I think it was a good one, and it's a great way to show the faces behind the software. Actually, it's such a good idea that KDE cloned it off our site), and so on. 3.2 Other navigation methods, shortcuts into the structure, etc. The structure outlined above is a reasonable main navigational structure, but one structure will never fit everyone. Hence, I'm suggesting augmenting it with a few metastructures that will mainly be accessible through the front page: Role description Allow people to choose who they are from a small menu (about ten items, perhaps), and arrive on a page of quick links for the group they chose. The links go directly into the structure, and are the ones we believe are useful for that group, in the order they should be read. Quick tasks Allow people to choose a few typical tasks from a menu, and go directly to those pages. These should be the 4-8 pages people visit the most, but that are still not logical to make into top-level categories. Things that spring to mind as obvious candidates are "Report a bug", "I need help!", etc. Search the site A search box on the front page is a necessity, and should search the entire site. 4. Graphical design There have been several quick sketches of the web site look and feel on the list lately. There seems to be considerable agreement on several aspects of the graphical design. I've tried to sum up those here, as well as inject some common sense rules, and some opinions of my own, of course. 4.1 Colors and typefaces High contrast is easier to read than low contrast. Dark text on a light background is easier to read than the opposite. It seems clear that we should use black text on white or light pastel backgrounds throughout the site, to keep readability as high as possible. This doesn't, however, exclude the occasional use of light-on-dark for menus with reasonably few items, etc. Typefaces on the web are a difficult problem. While technologies like CSS give decent control over what typefaces the browser chooses to use, there's no good, standardized and open method for downloading typefaces, hence one is limited mainly to specifying sans-serif or serif fonts. Sans fonts are widely used because they look cleaner, however, serifs theoretically increase readability, if rendered correctly, but font rendering in web browsers, especially under X, is abysmal. Thus, it might be worth considering using a sans font for the GNOME sites. 4.2 Headlines and icons For maintainability, headlines should be text only. The current design uses graphics for some text (most notably the menus), and this has proven to be difficult to maintain and update. Even though there are techniques for generating images of text on the fly and caching them, we should try to avoid this as much as possible. It would be good to integrate some icons into the site, since GNOME has very attractive icons on the desktop, etc. However, keeping the site light on graphics is probably a good idea, and since icons would have to be specially created for the site, it's dangerous to rely on them (if we had an icon per section, adding a new section would entail finding an icon artist to do another icon in the style of the existing ones). 4.3 Navigation bars and menus There are basically two main layouts used for the main navigation bars (navigating the main hierarchy). One, which has been the standard for most sites for a very long time, is the "Along the left side of the page" vertical menu. The advantages are that we can include basically as many items as we want, since vertical is the axis people are used to scrolling on anyway. The disadvantage is that subnavigation is difficult to integrate intuitively (most attempts use an indenting system, which tends to make the menu very wide). The other, which has become more common lately, is the stacked horizontal navbars along the top of the page. The advantages of this is that revealing several levels of navigation is very easy and intuitive, by adding bars below each other, The disadvantage is that it's somewhat limiting in the number of items that can be included on each level of navigation. Personally, I've come to prefer the stacked horizontal bars, if they're practical given the navigation structure, for a number of reasons. They stay out of the way a lot more than the vertical menu (since the vertical menus usually means wrapping the whole content in a table and putting the menu in a table cell to the left of it, so that there's essentially a strip of blank space all the way down below the menu bar), it takes up less screen realestate in general, and it's a model most people are comfortable with. We could optionally also include "breadcrumbs" to make finding out exactly where you are in the structure simpler (breadcrumbs are the category > subcategory > current page used on for instance yahoo.) If we use horizontal stacked bars, I suggest we place the alternate navigation methods (user group based, quick links, search) in a column along one of the sides of the frontpage, possibly in little boxes. 5. Localization We've amply discussed this. I'm going to write a section on it, but I believe it's not vital right now, and I really want to just get this document out there. 6. Technology Technology should be decided after a few days of discussion and fleshing out of the sections above. ----- -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From duane@extrawebs.com Thu Dec 14 12:00:20 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail.bartnet.net (mail.bartnet.net [38.197.168.6]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DD7E2E093 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 12:00:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from Duane (pool-216-209.bartnet.net [38.194.216.209]) by mail.bartnet.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA12392; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 11:06:18 -0600 Message-ID: <002001c065ef$3742fce0$03000004@Duane> From: "Duane Richards" To: "Ryan Muldoon" Cc: "gnome web list" References: <200012132139.PAA200176@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: another GNOME comp, 2 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 10:59:18 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work My name is Duane Richards, I've followed this list for several weeks now and I am interested in contributing some code and experience to the gnome website. I think that this is where we need to start and I agree with Ryan that the interface should be as seamless as possible between the gnome desktop and the website if possible even to the level of inheriting some features of the users desktop settings. For example there are different themes that can be applied to gkrellm and the desktop windows themselves. Could we allow these same themes to be applied to certain areas of the website? I also agree that we should try and keep the overall 'mood' of the original design and to model Helixcode's site would not be a bad thing. duane ----- Original Message ----- From: Ryan Muldoon To: Elliot Lee Cc: Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 2:40 PM Subject: Re: another GNOME comp, 2 > > On 14 Dec 2000, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > > > > > There is a GNOME palette, and gnome-looking graphics. > > > > Since when? > > > > There is only tradition, and tradition can be changed at will (for > > precedent, look at the latest www.gnome.org, which used none of the > > "brown" colors of previous web sites). > > > > Let your imagination run wild, > > > > Sure, there are no official GNOME colors. But there is a tradition. > Personally, I really don't like the colors of the current website, or > the blue swoosh things, or the "computing made easy". Why? It didn't > make me think of GNOME. Look at Apple's website. Or Microsoft's. Or > Be's. All of them have an interface that is similar to that of the > GUI. To me, that is a good thing. I think Helixcode's website does an > excellent job of this - gnome.org should strive to do the same. The > website should be pushing the platform - to do that, you need to show > the "mood" of gnome. To me, part of gnome's appeal is its > aesthetic. Maybe I'm alone in that. In my experience designing > websites, those that are successful push the mood of the content. The > framework should be so good, it is transparent to the user. > > > --Ryan > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-web-list mailing list > gnome-web-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-web-list From ryan@devnut.com Sat Dec 16 13:27:18 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from web.olypen.com (olypen.com [208.200.248.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 294DC2BAB1 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 13:27:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from devnu(ppp-58.olypen.com[208.238.207.62]) (813 bytes) by web.olypen.com via sendmail with P:smtp/R:inet_hosts/T:smtp (sender: ) id for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 10:32:29 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2.0.109 1999-Oct-27 #15 built 1999-Dec-15) From: "Ryan Christensen" To: "Gnome Web List" Subject: RE: Design document [Draft 1] Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 10:23:50 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 In-Reply-To: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work I'm going to work on a reply to this that I'll send off later tonight.. however, it looks great! Ryan >... From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sat Dec 16 16:38:53 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3ED9F2BAB1 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 16:38:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147P2t-0006to-00; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 22:39:12 +0100 Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 16:36:43 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Cc: tigert@helixcode.com Subject: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org, tigert@helixcode.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work [I'm Cc:ing this to Tuomas, since I'm unsure if he's on this list, and he's had more to do with GNOME's visual image through the ages than anyone else, so I'd love to hear his opinion] I was playing with some GNOME site mockups today. Nothing even close to finished yet, more like an exercise for myself, to see what sort of structures worked, and if I came up with something that "clicked". And I started thinking: What colors are representative of GNOME? We've had quite a few color schemes on GNOME web pages, varying both through time and from site to site. I've put up a little comparison chart, with the current www.kde.org colors included for reference, at: http://www.avmaria.com/colorschemes.png So what do we want for the new GNOME pages? There are obviously certain things that are given (and I've mentioned them in the design document draft), such as legibility dictating probably black body text on white background for the main text of the site, but beyond that, it's fairly open. Personally, I'd like the color scheme we use to be strong (the current www.gnome.org pages are fairly strong, but I was a little wussy in my choice of the pastels, on the other hand, the old GNOME page, and Gnotices, has a very strong red that I like, but the other colors are very weak), and distinctive (I ended up playing with blues in my new mockups, since blues are very safe, but they're also very KDE, so we should probably stay away). I'm wondering what people are seeing as GNOME colors. What colors "say" GNOME to you? It'd be great if people came up with simple color comps before we started doing actual site mockups. Just make an image with the colors you think we should use put beside each other. It can be even more simple than the ones I've done in my overview. It'd be great to come up with the following, at least: Background color, body text color, link colors, alternate background color (for boxes, etc) with the text colors to be applied on the alternate background, and a couple of accent and emphasis colors. There can be more, but these are the minimum colors a scheme should have to be flexible enough to fit the entire site. If you can't be bothered to make some color comps, please follow up to this thread with some thoughts about colors that you feel fit GNOME. When we have some agreement on this, it should go in the design document. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Sat Dec 16 17:55:30 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 494552CE02 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 17:55:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id QAA36840 (8.9.1/50); Sat, 16 Dec 2000 16:55:22 -0600 Message-Id: <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: GNOME colors From: Ryan Muldoon To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org, tigert@helixcode.com In-Reply-To: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 17 Dec 2000 02:56:31 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work While I don't have the time to do a color comp at the moment (finals), I'd like to put in my thoughts on the web site's color scheme: 1. Pastels should go away - They appear nowhere in gnome artwork. In my mind, they are almost the opposite of the general gnome aesthetic concept. 2. Reds, Browns, Yellows, dark green, and greyscale seem to be the most used colors in gnome artwork. I think the website should reflect this. 3. I am partial to continuing in the Tigert tradition for artwork - it is the distinctive GNOME feel. 4. The background-oriented colors should be subdued and earthy (yellow, white, grey, light brown), and then use the stronger colors for text (black), links (red/rust/maroonish, dark green) and content. As I've said before, the helixcode.com website did a good job of reflecting the GNOME feel - we should try to do similarly (but not use the same look, obviously). I think it is important to reflect the feel of the GUI while we are promoting it. While in general primary colors are nice and strong and such, they have little to do with the GNOME look and feel. It's important to consider this when we are making the website. People should be immediately be able to tell that it is the GNOME website, and not something else. --Ryan From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Sat Dec 16 18:04:24 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C8602CE02 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 18:04:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id RAA100834 (8.9.1/50); Sat, 16 Dec 2000 17:04:17 -0600 Message-Id: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] From: Ryan Muldoon To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 17 Dec 2000 03:05:26 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work My thoughts (for now) are about sections 2 and 3: > > 2. Audience and goals > > The GNOME websites span a rather large range of audiences (and corresponding > goals), including users, developers, members of the press, representatives of > companies considering supporting GNOME, and so on. The goals can be broken > down as follows: > I think one of the main goals should be the issue of integrating new members of the GNOME community. What I mean by this is encouraging people to get involved in improving GNOME. The best way to accelerate the rate of improvement of GNOME is to get more people involved. > 3. Navigation structure/usability To further my suggested goal, I think that we should have a "get involved" (or "projects of the week") top level link. This would basically lead to a section of the website that lists needed tasks from each of the various projects. conceivably it could include teh bugzilla link to the wishlist item. It would also have a contact email address for each task. These projects would let people wishing to contribute to quickly get started doing little things without much effort overhead. I think that this is really very important: GNOME should try and integrate as many new members as it can. We should push the fact that we're an open project that welcomes newcomers (as is stated in the GNOME foundation charter). If we want to push it even more, we can publish the accomplishments of new members in the "People" section that you propose, to give people a fame incentive to participate. --Ryan From jdub@giardia.yourweb.com.au Sat Dec 16 18:23:42 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from giardia.yourweb.com.au (giardia.yourweb.com.au [61.8.3.32]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EBAB2D711 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 18:11:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by giardia.yourweb.com.au (Postfix, from userid 609) id 9747B17BB1; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:11:54 +1100 (EST) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:11:54 +1100 From: Jeff Waugh To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] Message-ID: <20001217101154.D17103@giardia.yourweb.com.au> References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 03:05:26AM +0500 X-Message: Leenooks, Lienucks, Leenoos, Lienus, Let's call the whole thing off. X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.17 i686 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > I think one of the main goals should be the issue of integrating new > members of the GNOME community. What I mean by this is encouraging > people to get involved in improving GNOME. The best way to accelerate > the rate of improvement of GNOME is to get more people involved. > > To further my suggested goal, I think that we should have a "get > involved" (or "projects of the week") top level link. Absolutely. On top of Dan Meuth's "Getting Involved" document, this will help immensely, and is important enough to put on the front page. In fact, a whole section of the website could be devoted to new projects, people, things to do, etc. We just need maintainers. :) Good call, Ryan! - Jeff -- jdub@aphid.net --------------------------------- http://linux.conf.au/ -- ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI. From digitect@mindspring.com Sat Dec 16 19:35:31 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7FC92D61F for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 19:31:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4ek.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.212]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA02795; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 19:31:24 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001001c067c0$aec4f8e0$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: "Ryan Muldoon" Cc: References: <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: GNOME colors Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 19:31:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Wow. I couldn't agree more. You beat me to saying this. That. What he said. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ryan Muldoon" To: "Joakim Ziegler" Cc: ; Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 4:56 PM Subject: Re: GNOME colors > > 1. Pastels should go away - They appear nowhere in gnome artwork. In my > mind, they are almost the opposite of the general gnome aesthetic > concept. > > 2. Reds, Browns, Yellows, dark green, and greyscale seem to be the most > used colors in gnome artwork. I think the website should reflect this. > > 3. I am partial to continuing in the Tigert tradition for artwork - it > is the distinctive GNOME feel. > > 4. The background-oriented colors should be subdued and earthy (yellow, > white, grey, light brown), and then use the stronger colors for text > (black), links (red/rust/maroonish, dark green) and content. > > While in general primary colors are nice and strong and such, they have > little to do with the GNOME look and feel. It's important to consider > this when we are making the website. People should be immediately be > able to tell that it is the GNOME website, and not something else. > From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sat Dec 16 19:51:54 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A51AF2BBE4 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 19:51:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147S3g-0000xx-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 01:52:15 +0100 Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 19:49:04 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] Message-ID: <20001216194904.D21146@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 03:05:26AM +0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 03:05:26AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: >> The GNOME websites span a rather large range of audiences (and corresponding >> goals), including users, developers, members of the press, representatives of >> companies considering supporting GNOME, and so on. The goals can be broken >> down as follows: > I think one of the main goals should be the issue of integrating new > members of the GNOME community. What I mean by this is encouraging > people to get involved in improving GNOME. The best way to accelerate > the rate of improvement of GNOME is to get more people involved. I agree that participation should be encouraged. People who've read "The Mythical Man-Month" might disagree with the "The best way to accelerate the rate of improvement of GNOME is to get more people involved" statement, though. Specifically, I'm not sure if we *need* to make this a major goal. After all, the percentage of web site users that are even potential contributors is extremely small, and new contributors join GNOME every day, without the current website appealing specifically to them. It's an aspect that should be considered, but personally, I find it a lot more important to communicate well to users, and to the press. >> 3. Navigation structure/usability > To further my suggested goal, I think that we should have a "get > involved" (or "projects of the week") top level link. This would > basically lead to a section of the website that lists needed tasks from > each of the various projects. conceivably it could include teh bugzilla > link to the wishlist item. It would also have a contact email address > for each task. These projects would let people wishing to contribute to > quickly get started doing little things without much effort overhead. I > think that this is really very important: GNOME should try and integrate > as many new members as it can. We should push the fact that we're an > open project that welcomes newcomers (as is stated in the GNOME > foundation charter). This would be well served by a link in the list of "quick links" on the frontpage, I think. "Get involved" is not terribly suited to be a top-level navigation category, as it would either be too broad (by including everything that could be related to getting involved) or too narrow (specific howto type documents). > If we want to push it even more, we can publish the accomplishments of > new members in the "People" section that you propose, to give people a > fame incentive to participate. This is a good idea. It runs into the problem of knowing when someone actually enters the community, though. Most people drift around for a bit and get gradually involved. Of course, we could do this with people who made a substantial contribution (code, translation, whatever) for the first time. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sat Dec 16 20:05:06 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B2FA2BCE2 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 20:05:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147SGR-0002RN-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 02:05:28 +0100 Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 20:02:12 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 02:56:31AM +0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 02:56:31AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > While I don't have the time to do a color comp at the moment (finals), > I'd like to put in my thoughts on the web site's color scheme: > 1. Pastels should go away - They appear nowhere in gnome artwork. In my > mind, they are almost the opposite of the general gnome aesthetic > concept. I agree about the pastels. However, I think it's dangerous to invoke a "GNOME aestetic concept", since there's no such concept, in reality, it's mostly a coincidence, and caused by Tuomas doing a large part of the original icons and so on. Interestingly, the icons Tuomas has been doing lately (for instance for Evolution) have less of the brownish, earthy colors. > 2. Reds, Browns, Yellows, dark green, and greyscale seem to be the most > used colors in gnome artwork. I think the website should reflect this. > 3. I am partial to continuing in the Tigert tradition for artwork - it > is the distinctive GNOME feel. > 4. The background-oriented colors should be subdued and earthy (yellow, > white, grey, light brown), and then use the stronger colors for text > (black), links (red/rust/maroonish, dark green) and content. > As I've said before, the helixcode.com website did a good job of > reflecting the GNOME feel - we should try to do similarly (but not use > the same look, obviously). I think it is important to reflect the feel > of the GUI while we are promoting it. I agree in principle, although I'm not sure it's necessarily a very healthy restriction to impose. For instance, the current www.gnome.org site doesn't follow the GNOME icon color scheme at all, while the old www.gnome.org site did. I think there's little disagreement that the current site is a vast improvement over the old one. Additionally, some of the colors in the GNOME color scheme (especially as used on the old site) are plain bad, visually. Low-saturation greyish browns are extremely dreary colors (while reducing the contrast of the entire site, and thus the readability). There are also different goals for the visual design of a desktop people are supposed to use for 10 hours a day, every day, and a website that serves as an information and promotion channel for that same desktop. Specifically, you have a much shorter time to make and impression, so being less subdued (in color use, design, etc.) is necessary to capture the user and build brand recognition. > While in general primary colors are nice and strong and such, they have > little to do with the GNOME look and feel. It's important to consider > this when we are making the website. People should be immediately be > able to tell that it is the GNOME website, and not something else. Well, I agree that brand recognition is nice. However, as it stands, GNOME has practically no brand at all, beyond the desktop itself (and modelling a web site strictly over a desktop is a very bad idea). Rather than assuming that we should let the look of the desktop dictate the look of the website, I think it would be reasonable to have a back and forth effect. We're in a position to break new ground and make the best GNOME site ever. If the choice stands between a good site that has a strong visual bond to the desktop, and a great site that breaks some of those conventions, I'll go for the great one any day. In short, I'm fine with using the GNOME icon inspired colors, if we can build a great website on it. But I'm not willing to make it the deciding factor in what the final site is going to look like. There are other, more important priorities. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From jdub@giardia.yourweb.com.au Sat Dec 16 20:14:49 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from giardia.yourweb.com.au (giardia.yourweb.com.au [61.8.3.32]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A03D62BEAB for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 20:14:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by giardia.yourweb.com.au (Postfix, from userid 609) id C1ABA17E89; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 12:14:46 +1100 (EST) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 12:14:46 +1100 From: Jeff Waugh To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001217121446.B32045@giardia.yourweb.com.au> References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 02:56:31AM +0500 X-Message: Leenooks, Lienucks, Leenoos, Lienus, Let's call the whole thing off. X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.17 i686 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > 1. Pastels should go away - They appear nowhere in gnome artwork. In my > mind, they are almost the opposite of the general gnome aesthetic > concept. They appear on the Gnome website. :) I think the pastels got a tough review - and for the wrong reasons. Can you remember the old site? Sure, it had "coder's tables" and murky layout, but the colours? Choosing colours for the website is essentially one of the steps in branding Gnome. Do you want to be stuck with dreary, earthy, dank tones, or something upbeat, sleek and futurey? (Terrible marketing words, I know...) > 2. Reds, Browns, Yellows, dark green, and greyscale seem to be the most > used colors in gnome artwork. I think the website should reflect this. Where is this "Gnome artwork"? The Foot? The icons? Stuff stuck in our minds from days gone by? All those browns lead to murky, not perky (good god, now I'm rhyming) - perhaps we should discuss wider branding ideas with the Foundation. > 3. I am partial to continuing in the Tigert tradition for artwork - it > is the distinctive GNOME feel. "What happens if Linus is run over by a bus?" ==> s/Linus/tigert/ The Gnome look'n'feel is already progressing - see the work on Red Carpet, Helix Setup Tools, Evolution, Nautilus... Not much brown in there! :D All the interfaces are going *funky*, not muddy. (My little brother asked if Gnomes wiped their feet after putting their footprints in the website background...) Warm yellows (Helix bubble-buttons) and subtle use of burgundy, with the light Gnome-feet off-whites as shading is looking interesting. I'll do a colour comp in a minute. > People should be immediately be able to tell that it is the GNOME > website, and not something else. That's defintely true - but we can 'remake tradition' at this point too. :) - Jeff -- jdub@aphid.net --------------------------------- http://linux.conf.au/ -- ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI. From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Sat Dec 16 20:29:58 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 339372BBE4 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 20:29:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id TAA233604 (8.9.1/50); Sat, 16 Dec 2000 19:29:44 -0600 Message-Id: <200012170129.TAA233604@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] From: Ryan Muldoon To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20001216194904.D21146@helixcode.com> References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216194904.D21146@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 17 Dec 2000 05:30:52 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > I think one of the main goals should be the issue of integrating new > > members of the GNOME community. What I mean by this is encouraging > > people to get involved in improving GNOME. The best way to accelerate > > the rate of improvement of GNOME is to get more people involved. > > I agree that participation should be encouraged. People who've read "The > Mythical Man-Month" might disagree with the "The best way to accelerate the > rate of improvement of GNOME is to get more people involved" statement, though. > This has nothing to do with "The Mythical Man-Month" in my opinion. I am not talking about huge, key parts of projects to be offered up. I am talking about the simple, nice-to-have projecs that the core developers just don't have time to do. Think of the "Project of the Week" that Havoc Pennington used to do back when there were weekly status reports. > Specifically, I'm not sure if we *need* to make this a major goal. After all, > the percentage of web site users that are even potential contributors is > extremely small, and new contributors join GNOME every day, without the > current website appealing specifically to them. It's an aspect that should be > considered, but personally, I find it a lot more important to communicate > well to users, and to the press. > I really think we do need to make this a major goal. We should be lowering the barrier to entry for participation as much as we can. I think if we can make it nearly trivial to find a little something to do for GNOME, someone who is looking to kill a few hours might do it, and end up wanting to contribute more in the future. GNOME can get all the press in the world, but to really make it, it needs an enthusiastic community behind it. People like the fact that when they look at the back of RedHat boxes, they see their work in one of the screenshots. If we can make this easy, it helps that many more people contribute. > >> 3. Navigation structure/usability > > > To further my suggested goal, I think that we should have a "get > > involved" (or "projects of the week") top level link. This would > > basically lead to a section of the website that lists needed tasks from > > each of the various projects. conceivably it could include teh bugzilla > > link to the wishlist item. It would also have a contact email address > > for each task. These projects would let people wishing to contribute to > > quickly get started doing little things without much effort overhead. I > > think that this is really very important: GNOME should try and integrate > > as many new members as it can. We should push the fact that we're an > > open project that welcomes newcomers (as is stated in the GNOME > > foundation charter). > > This would be well served by a link in the list of "quick links" on the > frontpage, I think. "Get involved" is not terribly suited to be a top-level > navigation category, as it would either be too broad (by including everything > that could be related to getting involved) or too narrow (specific howto type > documents). > The "Get Involved" or "Projects of the Week" (which is probably a better name) shouldn't be categories, you're right. I used some poor wording. What I meant was that it should be a link that appears on every page: a main link. It won't be linking to "howtos" either - it would go to a page that lists little, easy to understand projects that could use doing. For instance: translating something, or writing documentation for a little applet, or coding a part of something, or making an applet, etc. > > > If we want to push it even more, we can publish the accomplishments of > > new members in the "People" section that you propose, to give people a > > fame incentive to participate. > > This is a good idea. It runs into the problem of knowing when someone > actually enters the community, though. Most people drift around for a bit and > get gradually involved. Of course, we could do this with people who made a > substantial contribution (code, translation, whatever) for the first time. > It could just be done when a new person does one of the projects of the week. Easy to figure that out. --Ryan From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Sat Dec 16 20:46:41 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A36AD2BAB8 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 20:46:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id TAA129434 (8.9.1/50); Sat, 16 Dec 2000 19:46:23 -0600 Message-Id: <200012170146.TAA129434@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: GNOME colors From: Ryan Muldoon To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 17 Dec 2000 05:47:32 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 02:56:31AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > > While I don't have the time to do a color comp at the moment (finals), > > I'd like to put in my thoughts on the web site's color scheme: > > > 1. Pastels should go away - They appear nowhere in gnome artwork. In my > > mind, they are almost the opposite of the general gnome aesthetic > > concept. > > I agree about the pastels. However, I think it's dangerous to invoke a "GNOME > aestetic concept", since there's no such concept, in reality, it's mostly a > coincidence, and caused by Tuomas doing a large part of the original icons > and so on. Interestingly, the icons Tuomas has been doing lately (for > instance for Evolution) have less of the brownish, earthy colors. > I really do think that there is a given palette that people think of when they think of GNOME. The Evolution icons still are using reds, greyscale, and yellow, and a bit of brown, so I don't know what you mean.....they are still consistent with the previous icons. > > 2. Reds, Browns, Yellows, dark green, and greyscale seem to be the most > > used colors in gnome artwork. I think the website should reflect this. > > > 3. I am partial to continuing in the Tigert tradition for artwork - it > > is the distinctive GNOME feel. > > > 4. The background-oriented colors should be subdued and earthy (yellow, > > white, grey, light brown), and then use the stronger colors for text > > (black), links (red/rust/maroonish, dark green) and content. > > > As I've said before, the helixcode.com website did a good job of > > reflecting the GNOME feel - we should try to do similarly (but not use > > the same look, obviously). I think it is important to reflect the feel > > of the GUI while we are promoting it. > > I agree in principle, although I'm not sure it's necessarily a very healthy > restriction to impose. For instance, the current www.gnome.org site doesn't > follow the GNOME icon color scheme at all, while the old www.gnome.org site > did. I think there's little disagreement that the current site is a vast > improvement over the old one. > well, in some respects yes, but in others, I think it is much worse. The older websites weren't as fancy, etc, and used tables poorly, but they got some things right. The blue swoosh things on the current website are just wastes of screen real estate, and don't match the normal GNOME colors. The menus are graphics rather than text, which is not wise for many reasons. Their colors are also odd. The "Computing Made Easy" slogan I also think is bad. But having a white background is nice, as it is clean looking. > Additionally, some of the colors in the GNOME color scheme (especially as > used on the old site) are plain bad, visually. Low-saturation greyish browns > are extremely dreary colors (while reducing the contrast of the entire site, > and thus the readability). There are also different goals for the visual > design of a desktop people are supposed to use for 10 hours a day, every day, > and a website that serves as an information and promotion channel for that > same desktop. Specifically, you have a much shorter time to make and > impression, so being less subdued (in color use, design, etc.) is necessary > to capture the user and build brand recognition. > > I think that you are ignoring the fact that you can still easily produce contrast. Those low saturation colors are extremely suitable for things in the background - muted highlighting, etc. Black and white, and proper use of reds will give us plenty of contrast. I am by no means suggesting that we put brown text on a yellow background - that is just silly. Black text on a white background should be a given. However, I think that having the "decorative" parts of the site being somewhat muted is an advantage rather than a disadvantage. It doesn't distract the user's eyes from the content. This is something that people who need to get at information appreciate. How can you buiild brand recognition if the colors/feel you use have nothing to do with the product? > > While in general primary colors are nice and strong and such, they have > > little to do with the GNOME look and feel. It's important to consider > > this when we are making the website. People should be immediately be > > able to tell that it is the GNOME website, and not something else. > > Well, I agree that brand recognition is nice. However, as it stands, GNOME > has practically no brand at all, beyond the desktop itself (and modelling a > web site strictly over a desktop is a very bad idea). Rather than assuming > that we should let the look of the desktop dictate the look of the website, I > think it would be reasonable to have a back and forth effect. We're in a > position to break new ground and make the best GNOME site ever. If the choice > stands between a good site that has a strong visual bond to the desktop, and > a great site that breaks some of those conventions, I'll go for the great one > any day. > I am not suggesting that we organize the site as we would a desktop. they are two different media. However, I don't think that the website should influence the desktop either - I don't know how you would do this in the first place. I think that the "tigert" feel is rather nice. I am one of those people that use their computer for 10 hours a day, so I appreciate the aesthetic quality. One ot the reasons I enjoy using GNOME so much is that it is rather attractive and sophisticated feeling. If we were to make a "great" GNOME website with magenta and orange, I would call it a poor GNOME website. In my experience, there is a difference between a great generic website and a great branded website. > In short, I'm fine with using the GNOME icon inspired colors, if we can build > a great website on it. But I'm not willing to make it the deciding factor in > what the final site is going to look like. There are other, more important > priorities. > I just want to make sure that we website actually represents GNOME. That should be the most important deciding factor. I'm sure you agree with me.....perhaps we just see different ways of arriving at that goal. --Ryan From digitect@mindspring.com Sat Dec 16 21:05:29 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D6CD2BAB8 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:05:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4ek.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.212]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA28032; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:05:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: "Joakim Ziegler" , References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> Subject: Re: GNOME colors Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:05:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work From: "Joakim Ziegler" Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 9:02 PM Subject: Re: GNOME colors > I think there's little disagreement that the current site is a vast > improvement over the old one. I'm not sure I would agree. One of the things I first noticed about GNOME was the softer tone of the web site. I tire of getting hit with primaries and contrast at every page I go to, and the old GNOME site was a refreshing change. (No offense intended Joakim, just my preference.) > > Additionally, some of the colors in the GNOME color scheme (especially as > used on the old site) are plain bad, visually. Low-saturation greyish browns > are extremely dreary colors (while reducing the contrast of the entire site, > and thus the readability). There are also different goals for the visual > design of a desktop people are supposed to use for 10 hours a day, every day, > and a website that serves as an information and promotion channel for that > same desktop. Specifically, you have a much shorter time to make and > impression, so being less subdued (in color use, design, etc.) is necessary > to capture the user and build brand recognition. This is *definitely* a matter of aesthetic opinion. What you say is "dreary" I think is easy on the eyes. Fact is, when you stare at a monitor 10 hours a day, a slightly lower intensity and contrast is more desirable. (Not too much of course, just a little.) Also, I don't care about making a visual splash and capturing the casual visitor to the site through theatrics. GNOME is better. That's why you would want to use it. Let's make the site *clear*, useful and navigable and let the user judge for himself whether or not GNOME is better. Sooner or later, flash runs out of steam, and they'll go on to something else. There's a saying in architecture: "If you can't make it good, make it big. If you can't make it big, paint it red." Let's just make it good. > Well, I agree that brand recognition is nice. However, as it stands, GNOME > has practically no brand at all, beyond the desktop itself (and modelling a > web site strictly over a desktop is a very bad idea). Rather than assuming > that we should let the look of the desktop dictate the look of the website, I > think it would be reasonable to have a back and forth effect.... I agree, with the caveat that the desktop is basically so flexible that it doesn't really have a look (especially with upcoming meta-themeing flexibility). *Except* for the icons ... ... which is why I'm a big proponent of keeping the site very minimal (of color) except for the desktop art we choose to use. It expresses the aesthetic of GNOME better than anything else. Ok, now my turn. Try these on: http://www.mindspring.com/~steve_hall/gnome/comp-stevehall03.htm http://www.mindspring.com/~steve_hall/gnome/comp-stevehall02d.htm (This one is *not* intended to be a real proposal, just a way of testing icons against a gray on charcoal scheme.) The first test comp is obviously neutral. But as you can see from the developer alternative, with neutrality comes flexibility. If we make the main GNOME site's colors too strong, the myriad related application and project sites will have much more of a struggle to maintain/create their own identity while still incorporating some flavor of the central GNOME site. Take the current site's "pastels". Anybody else using them? Of course not, because it's too strong to be identifiable as anything other than the main site. I guess I'm trying to say that these pages, like the desktop, is a canvas on which many projects and applications are painted. It isn't supposed to stand out, just be a good supporting structure. Let's keep it clear and somewhat neutral. It can still be kickin if the composition is proportional and we express style through the subtler things. Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Sat Dec 16 21:06:15 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0814B2BAB8 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:06:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id UAA128390 (8.9.1/50); Sat, 16 Dec 2000 20:05:42 -0600 Message-Id: <200012170205.UAA128390@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: GNOME colors From: Ryan Muldoon To: Jeff Waugh Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20001217121446.B32045@giardia.yourweb.com.au> References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001217121446.B32045@giardia.yourweb.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 17 Dec 2000 06:06:50 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > > > 1. Pastels should go away - They appear nowhere in gnome artwork. In my > > mind, they are almost the opposite of the general gnome aesthetic > > concept. > > > They appear on the Gnome website. :) I think the pastels got a tough review > - and for the wrong reasons. Can you remember the old site? Sure, it had > "coder's tables" and murky layout, but the colours? > Right, but they shouldn't have been there. See my reply to Joakim about the current website vs. the old ones. > Choosing colours for the website is essentially one of the steps in branding > Gnome. Do you want to be stuck with dreary, earthy, dank tones, or something > upbeat, sleek and futurey? (Terrible marketing words, I know...) > Where in the GNOME desktop do you find sleek and futurey looking design/colors? I don't see much metallic sheen in my desktop. I rather like the calm, muted tones - and I know a great deal of others do as well. The website should reflect how the desktop is. > > 2. Reds, Browns, Yellows, dark green, and greyscale seem to be the most > > used colors in gnome artwork. I think the website should reflect this. > > > Where is this "Gnome artwork"? The Foot? The icons? Stuff stuck in our minds > from days gone by? All those browns lead to murky, not perky (good god, now > I'm rhyming) - perhaps we should discuss wider branding ideas with the > Foundation. > Do we want the KDE-style "perky" icons (that some might call overly bright and childish)? I don't know what you mean here. The "days gone by" are the foundation of what GNOME is today. They were a big reason why I started using GNOME in the .30 days (2 or 3 websites ago). I think we should keep on with the subtle and sophisticated look that GNOME has. > > 3. I am partial to continuing in the Tigert tradition for artwork - it > > is the distinctive GNOME feel. > > > "What happens if Linus is run over by a bus?" ==> s/Linus/tigert/ > Lots of people can and have made artwork in the tigert style. A friend of mine made a dozen or so, and I can't tell who made which ones. I think that a style shouldn't be dictated by more than one or two people........otherwise it isn't consistent. > The Gnome look'n'feel is already progressing - see the work on Red Carpet, > Helix Setup Tools, Evolution, Nautilus... Not much brown in there! :D All > the interfaces are going *funky*, not muddy. (My little brother asked if > Gnomes wiped their feet after putting their footprints in the website > background...) > Nautilus' Eazel theme definitely clashes with the rest of GNOME, and I think that is a mistake. Thankfully there are many other themes to use, some of which match rather nicely. I don't think that brown sums up the GNOME look....there are a lot of other colors that GNOME uses currently. I don't see how anything is muddy currently. But I would strongly advise against "funky." > Warm yellows (Helix bubble-buttons) and subtle use of burgundy, with the > light Gnome-feet off-whites as shading is looking interesting. I'll do a > colour comp in a minute. > we'll see......the bubble-buttons seem gratuitus to me, I was hoping that they wouldn't be there in the final version of Red Carpet. > > People should be immediately be able to tell that it is the GNOME > > website, and not something else. > > > That's defintely true - but we can 'remake tradition' at this point too. :) Well, to remake tradition, we would have to redo all of the existing artwork. Personally, I'm not up to the task. I'm sure that people would like to see your (or others') effort in this direction. I don't see how we can brand something when promotional material doesn't match the actual product. --Ryan From jdub@giardia.yourweb.com.au Sat Dec 16 21:48:28 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from giardia.yourweb.com.au (giardia.yourweb.com.au [61.8.3.32]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19DA62D623 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:47:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by giardia.yourweb.com.au (Postfix, from userid 609) id 420DA17E89; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:47:39 +1100 (EST) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:47:39 +1100 From: Jeff Waugh To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001217134739.C32045@giardia.yourweb.com.au> References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001217121446.B32045@giardia.yourweb.com.au> <200012170205.UAA128390@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012170205.UAA128390@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 06:06:50AM +0500 X-Message: Leenooks, Lienucks, Leenoos, Lienus, Let's call the whole thing off. X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.17 i686 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > Where in the GNOME desktop do you find sleek and futurey looking > design/colors? I don't see much metallic sheen in my desktop. All these words are heavily subjective - but there is a strong difference between "subtle" and "murky". The old Gnome site was murky, the new one is bold; it seems that there's interest in a middle-ground. But of desktops? Gnome is flexible enough to allow many styles - mine happens to be what I would call "sleek". Which is why... > The website should reflect how the desktop is. ... I think this is a fallacy - at least if by "reflect" you mean "look like". Gnome desktops are so diverse that choosing a website look'n'feel to integrate with a desktop feel so strongly is almost impossible. I'm not a fan of using desktop icons on the website, except for obvious highlights and cooperative illustration. Using them for navigation, etc., is not a great idea. How many websites reflect the look of their associated GUI? One: Apple's, and because they're so tied to it, because it's so visually strong itself, they can. > Do we want the KDE-style "perky" icons (that some might call overly > bright and childish)? I don't know what you mean here. I think the tigert-style Gnome icons are perky. The tiger shell, the mushroom - that's perk! :D They have a light, fun feeling. KDE's icons are just cardboard cutouts. > > "What happens if Linus is run over by a bus?" ==> s/Linus/tigert/ > > Lots of people can and have made artwork in the tigert style. There was a joke there. :) > Nautilus' Eazel theme definitely clashes with the rest of GNOME, and I > think that is a mistake. 8< snip 8< > we'll see......the bubble-buttons seem gratuitus to me, I was hoping > that they wouldn't be there in the final version of Red Carpet. Changing, progressing. > Well, to remake tradition, we would have to redo all of the existing > artwork. Heh. No, we'll just always have it as an influence on continuing change. The main point here is that the website shouldn't have an incredibly strong binding to the desktop. Different media, different styles, different presentations, etc. It has to work within the context of being a website - if that means being different to the multitudes of looks that our desktops may take, that's fine. - Jeff -- jdub@aphid.net --------------------------------- http://linux.conf.au/ -- ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI. From steve_hall@mindspring.com Sat Dec 16 21:16:43 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D4BD2BAB8 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:16:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4ek.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.212]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA17235 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:16:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <005701c067cf$6492b000$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "Steve Hall" To: Subject: IRC? Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:16:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Say, anybody interested in fleshing out ideas in IRC? Even if nobody's around right now, maybe we could schedule a regular session to hash stuff out. Would that be productive or just promote flameage? Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From steve_hall@mindspring.com Sat Dec 16 21:44:17 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 801E22BAB8 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:44:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4ek.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.212]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA22940 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:44:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <008b01c067d3$3e93ae00$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "Steve Hall" To: Subject: Re: GNOME colors Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:44:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > Ok, now my turn. Try these on: > > http://www.mindspring.com/~steve_hall/gnome/comp-stevehall03.htm > I forgot and uploaded this page with a Times font. I had been going back and forth--try this one for sans-serif (ahh, the beauty of style sheets, huh?): http://www.mindspring.com/~steve_hall/gnome/comp-stevehall02e.htm (Again, this is *not* intended to be a design proposal, just a color test with the icon art.) Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sat Dec 16 22:24:26 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 510712BAAA for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 22:24:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147URL-0004Vy-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 04:24:48 +0100 Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 22:22:14 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001216222214.F21146@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <200012170146.TAA129434@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012170146.TAA129434@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 05:47:32AM +0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 05:47:32AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > I really do think that there is a given palette that people think of > when they think of GNOME. > The Evolution icons still are using reds, greyscale, and yellow, and a > bit of brown, so I don't know what you mean.....they are still > consistent with the previous icons. They're not particularly brown, they're not particularly subdued in color (even using some orange arrows, etc.), and so on. I suggest you take a look at the screenshots. If anything, Tuomas' style is maintained in the style of drawing, not the colors. >> I agree in principle, although I'm not sure it's necessarily a very healthy >> restriction to impose. For instance, the current www.gnome.org site doesn't >> follow the GNOME icon color scheme at all, while the old www.gnome.org site >> did. I think there's little disagreement that the current site is a vast >> improvement over the old one. > well, in some respects yes, but in others, I think it is much > worse. The older websites weren't as fancy, etc, and used tables > poorly, but they got some things right. The blue swoosh things on the > current website are just wastes of screen real estate, and don't match > the normal GNOME colors. The menus are graphics rather than text, which > is not wise for many reasons. Their colors are also odd. The > "Computing Made Easy" slogan I also think is bad. But having a white > background is nice, as it is clean looking. Well, those might be your opinions, but the last redesign was met with roaring approval through all stages of the design, by the entire GNOME marketing group, and considered an improvement in all ways. The idea that adding space (and subsequently making it look better with graphical elements) is a waste of screen realestate is a seriously misguided one, as anyone versed in graphical design will tell you. The slogan was chosen by the GNOME marketing group, which included just about everyone relevant to GNOME marketing at the time, such as Elliot, Miguel, Bart, and quite a few others. To reiterate, you're entitled to your opinions, but it would be unwise to represent them as the one and only truth. > I think that you are ignoring the fact that you can still easily produce > contrast. Those low saturation colors are extremely suitable for things > in the background - muted highlighting, etc. Black and white, and > proper use of reds will give us plenty of contrast. I am by no means > suggesting that we put brown text on a yellow background - that is just > silly. Black text on a white background should be a given. However, I > think that having the "decorative" parts of the site being somewhat > muted is an advantage rather than a disadvantage. It doesn't distract > the user's eyes from the content. This is something that people who > need to get at information appreciate. > How can you buiild brand recognition if the colors/feel you use have > nothing to do with the product? Coca-Cola is black (well, dark brown). Yet, the label and all other marketing is red and white. Pepsi is the same color as coke, but their colors are mainly blues and whites, with some red. Etc. You're confusing the brand and the product, which is detrimental to both. The branding (and subsequently the website) has a completely different set of goals than what the look and feel of the desktop has. I outlined this in the previous mail as well. > I am not suggesting that we organize the site as we would a > desktop. they are two different media. However, I don't think that the > website should influence the desktop either - I don't know how you would > do this in the first place. I think that the "tigert" feel is rather > nice. I am one of those people that use their computer for 10 hours a > day, so I appreciate the aesthetic quality. One ot the reasons I enjoy > using GNOME so much is that it is rather attractive and sophisticated > feeling. If we were to make a "great" GNOME website with magenta and > orange, I would call it a poor GNOME website. In my experience, there > is a difference between a great generic website and a great branded > website. Well, you're not going to be using the website for 10 hours straight, that's my exact point. This is just one of the many ways in which a website differs from a desktop (the others being the goal of using it, the portion of screen realestate it takes up, the context (surfing around versus working), and in short just about everything else). >> In short, I'm fine with using the GNOME icon inspired colors, if we can build >> a great website on it. But I'm not willing to make it the deciding factor in >> what the final site is going to look like. There are other, more important >> priorities. > I just want to make sure that we website actually represents > GNOME. That should be the most important deciding factor. I'm sure you > agree with me.....perhaps we just see different ways of arriving at that > goal. There are plenty of ways a website can represent GNOME. The GNOME project founders and leaders felt that the current website represented GNOME very well, at the time I made it, and it has absolutely zero brown. As I said it before, if you can make a color scheme that uses what you fele are GNOME colors and make it an attractive, professional-looking, sleek site that will appeal to new users and veterans alike, by all means. But I repeat, I will not make it a deciding factor. The quality of the site in general, and the image it projects, is much more important. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sat Dec 16 22:37:29 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 067B22BAAA for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 22:37:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147Udy-00072U-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 04:37:51 +0100 Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 22:35:21 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001216223521.G21146@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001>; from digitect@mindspring.com on Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 09:05:25PM -0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 09:05:25PM -0500, digitect wrote: >> I think there's little disagreement that the current site is a vast >> improvement over the old one. > I'm not sure I would agree. One of the things I first noticed about GNOME > was the softer tone of the web site. I tire of getting hit with primaries > and contrast at every page I go to, and the old GNOME site was a refreshing > change. (No offense intended Joakim, just my preference.) See my mail to Ryan Muldoon for a comprehensive explanation of the background for the current www.gnome.org design. >> Additionally, some of the colors in the GNOME color scheme (especially as >> used on the old site) are plain bad, visually. Low-saturation greyish browns >> are extremely dreary colors (while reducing the contrast of the entire site, >> and thus the readability). There are also different goals for the visual >> design of a desktop people are supposed to use for 10 hours a day, every day, >> and a website that serves as an information and promotion channel for that >> same desktop. Specifically, you have a much shorter time to make and >> impression, so being less subdued (in color use, design, etc.) is necessary >> to capture the user and build brand recognition. > This is *definitely* a matter of aesthetic opinion. What you say is "dreary" > I think is easy on the eyes. Fact is, when you stare at a monitor 10 hours a > day, a slightly lower intensity and contrast is more desirable. (Not too > much of course, just a little.) As mentioned elewhere, you're not going to be staring at the GNOME website for 10 hours every day. Also, please read the literature on the impact of contrast on legibility and comprehension (Nielsen has a few good passages on this). > Also, I don't care about making a visual splash and capturing the casual > visitor to the site through theatrics. GNOME is better. That's why you would > want to use it. Let's make the site *clear*, useful and navigable and let > the user judge for himself whether or not GNOME is better. Sooner or later, > flash runs out of steam, and they'll go on to something else. There's a > saying in architecture: "If you can't make it good, make it big. If you > can't make it big, paint it red." Let's just make it good. If you have a good way of showing people the total spectrum of quality that GNOME represents in the 5-10 seconds a typical user will dedicate to the front page of an average site before he either gets interested or moves on, please let me know. Please do not erect strawman arguments like this. I'm clearly not arguing that we make it good-looking instead of good, I'm saying we do both. > Ok, now my turn. Try these on: > http://www.mindspring.com/~steve_hall/gnome/comp-stevehall03.htm Personally, I find these colors to be awfully bland and boring. Others might disagree. > http://www.mindspring.com/~steve_hall/gnome/comp-stevehall02d.htm (This one > is *not* intended to be a real proposal, just a way of testing icons against > a gray on charcoal scheme.) > The first test comp is obviously neutral. But as you can see from the > developer alternative, with neutrality comes flexibility. If we make the > main GNOME site's colors too strong, the myriad related application and > project sites will have much more of a struggle to maintain/create their own > identity while still incorporating some flavor of the central GNOME site. > Take the current site's "pastels". Anybody else using them? Of course not, > because it's too strong to be identifiable as anything other than the main > site. I don't think it's our goal to make a reusable design framework of some kind, which can be used by any random project site that happens to be related to GNOME. It might be a good idea to have such a framework, to make it easier for GNOME projects to create attractive and presentable web pages without too much work, but that's a separate effort from the main GNOME pages. There are many good reasons for *not* encouraging a spread/bastardization of the design, such as the confusion that would arise, with people potentially confusing random project sites and the main sites, possibly with content whose quality or reliability we can't vounch for, etc. This is known as brand dilution, and is considered a Bad Thing. So let's create this design with the GNOME sites in mind, not with generic project sites, for whose sake we need to be bland and nonintrusive. Gods know it's a big enough job as it is. > I guess I'm trying to say that these pages, like the desktop, is a canvas on > which many projects and applications are painted. It isn't supposed to stand > out, just be a good supporting structure. Let's keep it clear and somewhat > neutral. It can still be kickin if the composition is proportional and we > express style through the subtler things. As I've said countless times, feel free to create a wonderful site design using these colors. I'm still not willing to let the use or non-use of brown become a deciding factor in whether or not a design is "good enough for the GNOME sites". -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From digitect@mindspring.com Sun Dec 17 00:00:36 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23BF52DB51 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 00:00:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4ek.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.212]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA22112; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 00:00:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <013901c067e6$48ab51a0$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: "Joakim Ziegler" , References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001216223521.G21146@helixcode.com> Subject: Re: GNOME colors Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 00:00:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work All right everybody, at the risk of continuing a flamewar, I respectfully submit my rebuttals below... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joakim Ziegler" To: Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 11:35 PM Subject: Re: GNOME colors > On Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 09:05:25PM -0500, digitect wrote: > > >> I think there's little disagreement that the current site is a vast > >> improvement over the old one. > > > I'm not sure I would agree. One of the things I first noticed about GNOME > > was the softer tone of the web site. I tire of getting hit with primaries > > and contrast at every page I go to, and the old GNOME site was a refreshing > > change. (No offense intended Joakim, just my preference.) > > See my mail to Ryan Muldoon for a comprehensive explanation of the background > for the current www.gnome.org design. (which were): "Well, those might be your opinions, but the last redesign was met with roaring approval through all stages of the design, by the entire GNOME marketing group, and considered an improvement in all ways." Several points: 1. The marketing group's opinion is not gospel. I am interested in alternative perspectives, those which do not necessarily play well to the masses and therefore the business/marketing side of things. I'm sure there are many individuals in the GNOME movement that would agree, that's why half of us are here in this alternative OS anyway. 2. I would hardly classify even the most enthusiastic artistic critisizm as "roaring". Really, why are we even talking about re-design if there seems to be general approval for the site as it stands? 3. Aesthetic critique is nothing to get defensive about. Neither Ryan or myself are discussing your artistic sensibilities or talents. I can't speak for him, but I'm just expressing some of the appeal that the old scheme appealed to me. > >> Additionally, some of the colors in the GNOME color scheme (especially as > >> used on the old site) are plain bad, visually. Low-saturation greyish browns > >> are extremely dreary colors (while reducing the contrast of the entire site, > >> and thus the readability). There are also different goals for the visual > >> design of a desktop people are supposed to use for 10 hours a day, every day, > >> and a website that serves as an information and promotion channel for that > >> same desktop. Specifically, you have a much shorter time to make and > >> impression, so being less subdued (in color use, design, etc.) is necessary > >> to capture the user and build brand recognition. > > > This is *definitely* a matter of aesthetic opinion. What you say is "dreary" > > I think is easy on the eyes. Fact is, when you stare at a monitor 10 hours a > > day, a slightly lower intensity and contrast is more desirable. (Not too > > much of course, just a little.) > > As mentioned elewhere, you're not going to be staring at the GNOME website > for 10 hours every day. Also, please read the literature on the impact of > contrast on legibility and comprehension (Nielsen has a few good passages on > this). As you probably know, ultra-high contrast (red on blue for example) is also extremely illegible. So then we must be talking about a balance point somewhere in between, a matter of suitability and appropriateness. To simply say "black on white is correct and nothing else is" fails to appreciate some of the finer subtleties of design, as I'm sure you would agree. What we're all trying to do here is to agree on what is legible and what isn't, not conduct some sort of physiological lightwave rod and cone interface analysis in 4 out of 5 dentists. Indeed, my own comp uses a white background with charcoal text, which I think is perfectly readable. But I'm open for other people's alternative suggestions, too. > > > Also, I don't care about making a visual splash and capturing the casual > > visitor to the site through theatrics. GNOME is better. That's why you would > > want to use it. Let's make the site *clear*, useful and navigable and let > > the user judge for himself whether or not GNOME is better. Sooner or later, > > flash runs out of steam, and they'll go on to something else. There's a > > saying in architecture: "If you can't make it good, make it big. If you > > can't make it big, paint it red." Let's just make it good. > > If you have a good way of showing people the total spectrum of quality that > GNOME represents in the 5-10 seconds a typical user will dedicate to the > front page of an average site before he either gets interested or moves on, > please let me know. > > Please do not erect strawman arguments like this. I'm clearly not arguing > that we make it good-looking instead of good, I'm saying we do both. And I'm not saying that good-looking isn't important either. But it's easy to get enticed by a lot of fancy colors and miss the point. GNOME is about quality and that quality comes through the character and the philosophy that created it. I don't think we should compromise our principles just because it plays well to the 5 second visitor. > > > Ok, now my turn. Try these on: > > > http://www.mindspring.com/~steve_hall/gnome/comp-stevehall03.htm > > Personally, I find these colors to be awfully bland and boring. Others might > disagree. Heh. It's not trying to be exciting, just informative. Roadway signs aren't the most exciting thing I've ever seen either, but they get me to where I'm going. (We all seem to be disagreeing lately, aren't we? But you're entitled.) > > > http://www.mindspring.com/~steve_hall/gnome/comp-stevehall02d.htm (This one > > is *not* intended to be a real proposal, just a way of testing icons against > > a gray on charcoal scheme.) > > > The first test comp is obviously neutral. But as you can see from the > > developer alternative, with neutrality comes flexibility. If we make the > > main GNOME site's colors too strong, the myriad related application and > > project sites will have much more of a struggle to maintain/create their own > > identity while still incorporating some flavor of the central GNOME site. > > Take the current site's "pastels". Anybody else using them? Of course not, > > because it's too strong to be identifiable as anything other than the main > > site. > > I don't think it's our goal to make a reusable design framework of some kind, > which can be used by any random project site that happens to be related to > GNOME. It might be a good idea to have such a framework, to make it easier > for GNOME projects to create attractive and presentable web pages without too > much work, but that's a separate effort from the main GNOME pages. > > There are many good reasons for *not* encouraging a spread/bastardization of > the design, such as the confusion that would arise, with people potentially > confusing random project sites and the main sites, possibly with content > whose quality or reliability we can't vounch for, etc. This is known as brand > dilution, and is considered a Bad Thing. > > So let's create this design with the GNOME sites in mind, not with generic > project sites, for whose sake we need to be bland and nonintrusive. Gods know > it's a big enough job as it is. Wait a second. Have we started selling GNOME lately and nobody told me? Has the GPL been revoked?! I thought that the whole idea behind the GNOME desktop was Free extensibility among as many applications as desire. Since when does the brand of GNOME matter? Let's leave branding up to HelixCode and Eazel, GNOME is more about a philosophy of software development. All I'm saying is that the GNOME web site should have an identifiable *character* and resulting style which is suggested through many subtle (and perhaps some more obvious) artistic vehicles. My point is that these vehicles need to align with the character of the desktop, not be attention-begging flares for a desktop desparate for market share. Truely, if GNOME is the best (and Free) than it can't help but succeed. Again, let's not overstate the point. > > > I guess I'm trying to say that these pages, like the desktop, is a canvas on > > which many projects and applications are painted. It isn't supposed to stand > > out, just be a good supporting structure. Let's keep it clear and somewhat > > neutral. It can still be kickin if the composition is proportional and we > > express style through the subtler things. > > As I've said countless times, feel free to create a wonderful site design > using these colors. I'm still not willing to let the use or non-use of brown > become a deciding factor in whether or not a design is "good enough for the > GNOME sites". > Well, at some point we have to evaluate our interpretations of color. I am fundamentally opposed to a red background, for example. Brown (as you call it), on the other hand, conveys to me the soft-spoken, earthiness of a product that doesn't mind standing on it's own substance and merits. To quote Martha Stewart, "This is a good thing!" It is introverted, which means the visitor has to *ask* questions about GNOME, a sure way to get them *more* involved (as Socrates would tell you). Maybe not quite as many, but definitely a better caliber of folks would stick around. Of course this is all subjective. But that's why we're all talking about this, right? Ok, that's all I have to say. GNOME is a pretty cool thing to me, and has some refreshing qualities that aren't so popular these days. I'm just fighting for a chance to maintain that character in the web site because I care about it. (Oh, and BTW. When you said, "I think this doom metal is making me slightly aggressive. Perhaps I shouldn't listen to this stuff while writing on mailing lists," I think I agree. ;) No hard feelings, Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sun Dec 17 00:36:00 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 244412D713 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 00:35:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147WUf-0001f2-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 06:36:22 +0100 Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 00:33:51 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001217003351.J21146@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001216223521.G21146@helixcode.com> <013901c067e6$48ab51a0$0201a8c0@pc001> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <013901c067e6$48ab51a0$0201a8c0@pc001>; from digitect@mindspring.com on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 12:00:31AM -0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 12:00:31AM -0500, digitect wrote: >> On Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 09:05:25PM -0500, digitect wrote: >> See my mail to Ryan Muldoon for a comprehensive explanation of the >> background for the current www.gnome.org design. > (which were): "Well, those might be your opinions, but the last redesign > was met with > roaring approval through all stages of the design, by the entire GNOME > marketing group, and considered an improvement in all ways." > Several points: > 1. The marketing group's opinion is not gospel. I am interested in > alternative perspectives, those which do not necessarily play well to > the masses and therefore the business/marketing side of things. I'm sure > there are many individuals in the GNOME movement that would agree, > that's why half of us are here in this alternative OS anyway. The marketing group was as close to gospel as you could get at that point. It included both people explicitly working on promoting GNOME, like Bart DeCrem and me, and generally the leaders of the project, such as Miguel, Federico, and Elliot. > 2. I would hardly classify even the most enthusiastic artistic > critisizm as "roaring". Really, why are we even talking about re-design > if there seems to be general approval for the site as it stands? The reactions to the current design were along the lines of "This is a kick-ass website design". But I digress. There are several reasons why we decided to redesign, and thus why we're here. First of all, I wanted a site that was easier to maintain, since my time is somewhat limited. This means that stuff like images for text, although having several advantages, such as compactness, would have to go. Secondly, I want to get rid of WML and Auto*, because it's hard to maintain, and makes it difficult for people to get involved in maintaining the site, again making a lot of maintenance fall on me, instead of on the people who need it done, even though they have CVS access. Additionally, there's the desire to coordinate the look and feel throughout the GNOME sites, which wasn't a consideration originally, and thus the current design isn't made for expanding to, for instance, news.gnome.org. > 3. Aesthetic critique is nothing to get defensive about. Neither Ryan or > myself are discussing your artistic sensibilities or talents. I can't > speak for him, but I'm just expressing some of the appeal that the old > scheme appealed to me. I'm not being defensive. I am, however, pointing out some historical reasons for why the current design is what it is, and they're well worth observing. In particular since one of the stated reasons for that redesign was to, and I quote (don't remember who this was from, might have been Elliot) "Get rid of that horrid brown". >> As mentioned elewhere, you're not going to be staring at the GNOME website >> for 10 hours every day. Also, please read the literature on the impact of >> contrast on legibility and comprehension (Nielsen has a few good passages on >> this). > As you probably know, ultra-high contrast (red on blue for example) is > also extremely illegible. So then we must be talking about a balance > point somewhere in between, a matter of suitability and appropriateness. > To simply say "black on white is correct and nothing else is" fails to > appreciate some of the finer subtleties of design, as I'm sure you would > agree. What we're all trying to do here is to agree on what is legible > and what isn't, not conduct some sort of physiological lightwave rod and > cone interface analysis in 4 out of 5 dentists. Indeed, my own comp uses > a white background with charcoal text, which I think is perfectly > readable. But I'm open for other people's alternative suggestions, too. Red on blue is a simultaneous contrast, and I can't remember proposing that anywhere. Nielsen, for instance, has interesting numbers on the impact of black-or-close text on white-or-close backgrounds on readability, as compared to just about all other combinations. We don't need to do this analysis, since people have already done it for us. > And I'm not saying that good-looking isn't important either. But it's > easy to get enticed by a lot of fancy colors and miss the point. GNOME > is about quality and that quality comes through the character and the > philosophy that created it. I don't think we should compromise our > principles just because it plays well to the 5 second visitor. I don't think we have a "principle" that would be compromised if we used a certain set of colors over another. I want that 5 second visitor. There are a lot of them. We want to reach them, we want to pull them in, we want to show them what GNOME is about. >> Personally, I find these colors to be awfully bland and boring. Others >> might disagree. > Heh. It's not trying to be exciting, just informative. Roadway signs > aren't the most exciting thing I've ever seen either, but they get me to > where I'm going. (We all seem to be disagreeing lately, aren't we? But > you're entitled.) Most color schemes get you where you're going. Of that rather large set, it's a matter of choosing the one that has the most additional advantages, like being attractive, immediately appealing, etc. >> There are many good reasons for *not* encouraging a >> spread/bastardization of >> the design, such as the confusion that would arise, with people >> potentially >> confusing random project sites and the main sites, possibly with >> content >> whose quality or reliability we can't vounch for, etc. This is known >> as brand >> dilution, and is considered a Bad Thing. >> So let's create this design with the GNOME sites in mind, not with >> generic >> project sites, for whose sake we need to be bland and nonintrusive. >> Gods know >> it's a big enough job as it is. > Wait a second. Have we started selling GNOME lately and nobody told me? > Has the GPL been revoked?! I thought that the whole idea behind the > GNOME desktop was Free extensibility among as many applications as > desire. Since when does the brand of GNOME matter? Let's leave branding > up to HelixCode and Eazel, GNOME is more about a philosophy of software > development. Branding/marketing and freedom are not mutually exclusive. Indeed, freedom matters little if few people know that they can have it, and crave it. The GNOME Foundation charter states rather specifically: Public Image and Voice ----------------------- The foundation will be the principal entity with the ability to make official public statements for GNOME, such as press releases. The foundation will also be responsible for maintaining the "GNOME brand," and will have to determine the appropriate uses of the associated trademarks. The foundation will also be a hub for joint-marketing efforts by those organizations (corporate and non) which want to make GNOME-related announcements. Regional groups, created to promote GNOME in specific areas, may wish to make their own announcements about their efforts. Leaving branding and marketing up to companies are not an option. I love Helix Code, it's why I work for it, but I wouldn't want marketing and branding of GNOME to be handed over to Helix Code or any other corporate entity. It's far too important for that. > All I'm saying is that the GNOME web site should have an identifiable > *character* and resulting style which is suggested through many subtle > (and perhaps some more obvious) artistic vehicles. My point is that > these vehicles need to align with the character of the desktop, not be > attention-begging flares for a desktop desparate for market share. > Truely, if GNOME is the best (and Free) than it can't help but succeed. > Again, let's not overstate the point. I know what you're saying. I just think that the desktop and web site are sufficiently different in target audience, goals, medium and usage patterns that it's completely responsible to not maintain a very strong visual consistency between the two. Additionally, there's no such thing as assured success for the best contender, as shown by many real life examples, but that's a different discussion. I just think "GNOME is best anyway, so it doesn't need marketing" (or arguments of that nature) are rather missing the point entirely. >>> As I've said countless times, feel free to create a wonderful site >>> design >>> using these colors. I'm still not willing to let the use or non-use of >>> brown >>> become a deciding factor in whether or not a design is "good enough >>> for the >>> GNOME sites". > Well, at some point we have to evaluate our interpretations of color. I > am fundamentally opposed to a red background, for example. Brown (as you > call it), on the other hand, conveys to me the soft-spoken, earthiness > of a product that doesn't mind standing on it's own substance and > merits. To quote Martha Stewart, "This is a good thing!" It is > introverted, which means the visitor has to *ask* questions about GNOME, > a sure way to get them *more* involved (as Socrates would tell you). > Maybe not quite as many, but definitely a better caliber of folks would > stick around. Of course this is all subjective. But that's why we're all > talking about this, right? Actually, it's not entirely subjective, although it's taken a rather subjective turn. There are in fact very well accepted theories of color that deal with what sort of message and feel certain colors convey (although this isn't global, it's fairly uniform in the western hemisphere, at least. Let's not get into design and color choice for maximum market impact worldwide, it's the realm of million-dollar consulting companies.) And yes, an approach like that would certainly attract a certain group of users. But we're really talking mass-market appeal here, especially for the main www.gnome.org site. We're charged with an extremely important responsibility, namely to be the GNOME project's face to the world, and to be the main gate through which the project recruits both new users, developers and supporters. There is significant strength in numbers, and I don't want to lose a single one of those potential users because our chosen design appeals to "a better caliber of folks". There seems to be some conception that we're mainly making a set of sites for developers. We're not. Developers are important, they get their part of the site, but GNOME is just about ready to go onto the mass market of desktops, and to take on Windows directly. That's what this is about, offering a high-quality, free alternative to all those average users out there. > Ok, that's all I have to say. GNOME is a pretty cool thing to me, and > has some refreshing qualities that aren't so popular these days. I'm > just fighting for a chance to maintain that character in the web site > because I care about it. I think there are many ways to convey GNOME's character through the graphical design, feel and content of the website. Assuming that we have to use the same colors on the web site as are prevalent in the icons (which make up a very small area of the desktop) to do so is in my opinion an extremely simplistic view. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From cox@idecnet.com Sun Dec 17 08:44:19 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp.wanadoo.es (unknown [62.36.220.21]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7E912DC02 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 08:44:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from sapiens.idecnet.com (usuario1-37-143-140.dialup.uni2.es [62.37.143.140]) by smtp.wanadoo.es (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id eBHDiF413309; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:44:16 +0100 (MET) Received: from idecnet.com (cox@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sapiens.idecnet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA02638; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:44:13 +0100 Message-ID: <3A3CC32C.1FF011DA@idecnet.com> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:44:12 +0100 From: "Tomas V.V.Cox" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.13 i586) X-Accept-Language: es-ES, Spanish/Spain, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ryan Muldoon Cc: Joakim Ziegler , gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: 2. Audience (was Re: Design document [Draft 1]) References: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Ryan Muldoon wrote: > > My thoughts (for now) are about sections 2 and 3: > > > > > 2. Audience and goals > > > > The GNOME websites span a rather large range of audiences (and corresponding > > goals), including users, developers, members of the press, representatives of > > companies considering supporting GNOME, and so on. The goals can be broken > > down as follows: > > > > I think one of the main goals should be the issue of integrating new > members of the GNOME community. What I mean by this is encouraging > people to get involved in improving GNOME. The best way to accelerate > the rate of improvement of GNOME is to get more people involved. > Perhaps we can do an user oriented navigation structure. | | Desktop users | Developers | Press | Bussiness | |----------------------------------------------------------------- | (Contents Bar)| | What is Gnome | | other | | other | | other | | other | If I am a delevoper, the "Contents Bar" should have all the links related to developers with Gnome (How to get involved, cvs instructions, devel doc, etc). In each "web site user" section could appear a link to get involved (for ex: Desktop users => do translations, mantain web site; Developers => apps; Press => talk about Gnome, join the press list; Biz => put money :) Cheers, Tomas V.V.Cox From digitect@mindspring.com Sun Dec 17 10:37:18 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F41A2BB19 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:37:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf2u6.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.139.198]) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA14327 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:37:17 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <000f01c0683f$3c45a740$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001216223521.G21146@helixcode.com> <013901c067e6$48ab51a0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217003351.J21146@helixcode.com> Subject: Re: GNOME colors Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:37:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Maybe we're not too far apart... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joakim Ziegler" Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2000 1:33 AM Subject: Re: GNOME colors > In particular since one of the stated reasons for that redesign was to, and I > quote (don't remember who this was from, might have been Elliot) "Get rid of > that horrid brown". Ok, so some hate brown, some like it for traditional reasons. I can agree that it doesn't sparkle. If it ends up going, so be it. I just thought since it is somewhat part of the brand identity for historical reasons, it might be good to at least maintain it in an accent color. > Actually, [color is] not entirely subjective, although it's taken a rather > subjective turn. There are in fact very well accepted theories of color that > deal with what sort of message and feel certain colors convey (although this > isn't global, it's fairly uniform in the western hemisphere, at least. Let's > not get into design and color choice for maximum market impact worldwide, > it's the realm of million-dollar consulting companies.) Well, as an American I can easily agree with this strategy. But it' very appealing to me that GNOME is so international. I always thought the earth tones used in the past came from some sort of Mexican/South American tradition. Not trying to stir the pot again, but I for one, was interpreting the color from an alternative perspective and it was appealing that way. I, too, have studied tons of color theory (Joseph Albers, Mondrian and friends) but in the end it's going to come down to somebody's subjective decision. > I think there are many ways to convey GNOME's character through the graphical > design, feel and content of the website. Assuming that we have to use the > same colors on the web site as are prevalent in the icons (which make up a > very small area of the desktop) to do so is in my opinion an extremely > simplistic view. Maybe you misunderstand my verbosities. I'm not if favor of using a color scheme based *on* the icons. I think the site should be neutral. That's Neutral, as in hue-less, or minimally. Then the art from the desktop can stand out. Of course I understand your hesitancy to depend on the desktop art given it's current dormant state of development. But I'm interested in seeing that prosper, too, in fact, more so than the web site. So maybe I'm on the wrong list, but I think both can and should work together to benefit from the synergy. It's a clever way to take advantage of the spartan volunteer work force. > I want that 5 second visitor. There are a lot of them. We want to reach them, > we want to pull them in, we want to show them what GNOME is about. You and me both. We just have to figure out how to do that. > Leaving branding and marketing up to companies are not an option. I love > Helix Code, it's why I work for it, but I wouldn't want marketing and > branding of GNOME to be handed over to Helix Code or any other corporate > entity. It's far too important for that. I agree. GNOME needs to stand on its own. And I do want it to have it's own identity, distinct from anybody else out there. But I see it as more of a family, not a singular product brand. But maybe I'm not thinking broadly about it enough. > And yes, an approach like that would certainly attract a certain group of > users. But we're really talking mass-market appeal here, especially for the > main www.gnome.org site. We're charged with an extremely important > responsibility, namely to be the GNOME project's face to the world, and to be > the main gate through which the project recruits both new users, developers > and supporters. There is significant strength in numbers, and I don't want to > lose a single one of those potential users because our chosen design appeals > to "a better caliber of folks". I agree. > There seems to be some conception that we're mainly making a set of sites for > developers. We're not. Developers are important, they get their part of the > site, but GNOME is just about ready to go onto the mass market of desktops, > and to take on Windows directly. That's what this is about, offering a > high-quality, free alternative to all those average users out there. Yes, I think the site is currently far too skewed towards the developers. Or rather, I should say that I just don't think there's enough accomodation to the new user. That's why I'm in favor of splitting content right down the middle and have proposed a structure around this scheme. Users need the front end and it needs to be far better than what we currently have. From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sun Dec 17 13:54:41 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC7B62BE08 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:54:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147ixh-0006BO-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 19:55:10 +0100 Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:52:36 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001217135236.A28998@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001216223521.G21146@helixcode.com> <013901c067e6$48ab51a0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217003351.J21146@helixcode.com> <000f01c0683f$3c45a740$0201a8c0@pc001> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <000f01c0683f$3c45a740$0201a8c0@pc001>; from digitect@mindspring.com on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 10:37:16AM -0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 10:37:16AM -0500, digitect wrote: >> In particular since one of the stated reasons for that redesign was to, and >> I quote (don't remember who this was from, might have been Elliot) "Get rid of >> that horrid brown". > Ok, so some hate brown, some like it for traditional reasons. I can agree that > it doesn't sparkle. If it ends up going, so be it. I just thought since it is > somewhat part of the brand identity for historical reasons, it might be good > to at least maintain it in an accent color. I think there are ways to retain the image in the colors without preserving that specific brown. I'll write a message about this with a color comp of my own after I finish this message. >> Actually, [color is] not entirely subjective, although it's taken a rather >> subjective turn. There are in fact very well accepted theories of color that >> deal with what sort of message and feel certain colors convey (although this >> isn't global, it's fairly uniform in the western hemisphere, at least. Let's >> not get into design and color choice for maximum market impact worldwide, >> it's the realm of million-dollar consulting companies.) > Well, as an American I can easily agree with this strategy. But it' very > appealing to me that GNOME is so international. I always thought the earth > tones used in the past came from some sort of Mexican/South American > tradition. Not that I'm aware of, at least not consciously. Anyway, from my understanding, it seems that it's Asia that's the joker in the color symbolism deck, most of the western hemisphere has a rather similar culture when it comes to this. > Not trying to stir the pot again, but I for one, was interpreting > the color from an alternative perspective and it was appealing that way. I, > too, have studied tons of color theory (Joseph Albers, Mondrian and friends) > but in the end it's going to come down to somebody's subjective decision. Definitely. I hope it ends up being a clear majority decision, though. I also have the feeling that disagreement might be larger during a discussion than when people actually sit down and look at different suggestions. >> I think there are many ways to convey GNOME's character through the >> graphical >> design, feel and content of the website. Assuming that we have to use the >> same colors on the web site as are prevalent in the icons (which make up a >> very small area of the desktop) to do so is in my opinion an extremely >> simplistic view. > Maybe you misunderstand my verbosities. I'm not if favor of using a color > scheme based *on* the icons. I think the site should be neutral. That's > Neutral, as in hue-less, or minimally. Then the art from the desktop can stand > out. Of course I understand your hesitancy to depend on the desktop art given > it's current dormant state of development. But I'm interested in seeing that > prosper, too, in fact, more so than the web site. So maybe I'm on the wrong > list, but I think both can and should work together to benefit from the > synergy. It's a clever way to take advantage of the spartan volunteer work > force. I hope so too. It seems to me that when a new, fresh piece of design that doesn't rely overly on the existing corpus gets injected into the mix, the totality benefits. It's like including outside DNA into an overly homogenic gene pool, which has become somewhat stagnant; it promotes change and development, and tends towards a new equilibrium. I know some people have considered some of the icon and other graphics work Tuomas has done at Helix Code to be inspiration in this manner (it has more of a Helix look than the traditional GNOME look), and I hope the a web site that does new things, while still respecting its origins, can have the same sort of effect. >> Leaving branding and marketing up to companies are not an option. I love >> Helix Code, it's why I work for it, but I wouldn't want marketing and >> branding of GNOME to be handed over to Helix Code or any other corporate >> entity. It's far too important for that. > I agree. GNOME needs to stand on its own. And I do want it to have it's own > identity, distinct from anybody else out there. But I see it as more of a > family, not a singular product brand. But maybe I'm not thinking broadly about > it enough. Well, you're right in some respects. This is one of the reasons I'm a little afraid of relying too much on the desktop imagery. While the desktop environment is an important part of GNOME, it's also the part that gets the most attention (because it's easiest to get a concept of). But GNOME is a lot more than the desktop (in fact, the desktop is kind of a coincidence). It's difficult to brand something this large and diverse. I'm hoping we can succeed by being fairly abstract in our approach. Possibly, we'll just have to say "this is what we want GNOME to be associated with", instead of "what is it people associate GNOME with?", because people's perceptions at the moment are very varied. I'm doing a color comp right now, which is a little bolder than the things that have been proposed so far, yet, I think, might be a pleasant surprise. More of that in a little while. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sun Dec 17 14:53:09 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A34F92BAC0 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:53:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147jsI-0001Ln-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 20:53:38 +0100 Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:51:05 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001217145105.B28998@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com>; from joakim@helixcode.com on Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 04:36:43PM -0600 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work So I thought I'd say a little about what the color associations I get from GNOME are. To me, the keyword is probably "warm". GNOME is very close, personal, it ties stuff together. I'm associating rather freely here, this is more or less a brain dump of a non-verbal part of my brain, so bear with me. Lush, rich, warm colors, with perhaps a little dust, like when sun filters through dusty air inside a library building on a warm summer day. The colors of fine wood, old leather, finely printed books, warm sand, cream, spices, and so on. This probably sounds weird, but I have a very emotional approach to choosing colors and doing design. Others might not. Anyway, with these associations in mind, I sat down and made a little color comp. It has six base colors, with four variations of each. I didn't add black to this set of comps, since it's kind of a given. I think this palette isn't too far, conseptually, from the colors people associate with GNOME traditionally, in that they're all slightly "dusty" and subdued, but they're also a little bit bolder and stronger than the typical grayish browns. I didn't make any mockup design of a webpage, since I think that tends to distract a little from the colors themselves, at this stage. I think it's great that we're actually *thinking* about colors this time, since color choice the last time (and, I suspect, also the first time) was somewhat of a haphazard process. Anyway, see what you think: http://www.avmaria.com/gnome-color-proposal-1.png -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From digitect@mindspring.com Sun Dec 17 14:53:51 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6042B2BAC0 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:53:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf2rd.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.139.109]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA24563 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:53:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <002101c06863$13772400$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001216223521.G21146@helixcode.com> <013901c067e6$48ab51a0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217003351.J21146@helixcode.com> <000f01c0683f$3c45a740$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217135236.A28998@helixcode.com> Subject: Re: GNOME colors Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:53:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > From: "Joakim Ziegler" > Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2000 2:52 PM > > It's difficult to brand something this large and diverse. I'm hoping we can > succeed by being fairly abstract in our approach. Possibly, we'll just have > to say "this is what we want GNOME to be associated with", instead of "what > is it people associate GNOME with?", because people's perceptions at the > moment are very varied. Yeah, I was starting to think that too, back when we were talking about brand v. family of products. Would we go so far as to consider the web site one of the products? Then it can sort of take on a character of it's own, appropriate for the audiences your draft discusses. From digitect@mindspring.com Sun Dec 17 19:38:43 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (granger.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.148]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 143862BAE9 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 19:38:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf318.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.140.40]) by granger.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA17267 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 19:38:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <003901c0688a$defbe6c0$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: Subject: Re: GNOME colors Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 19:38:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > From: "Joakim Ziegler" > Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2000 3:51 PM > To me, the keyword is probably "warm". . . . Lush, rich, > warm colors, with perhaps a little dust, like when sun filters through dusty > air inside a library building on a warm summer day. The colors of fine wood, > old leather, finely printed books, warm sand, cream, spices, and so on. I'm warm, too, but outside. Meadows in late spring/early summer, new green shoots, dry earth, dandelions. > I think this palette isn't too far, conceptually, from the > colors people associate with GNOME traditionally, in that they're all > slightly "dusty" and subdued, but they're also a little bit bolder and > stronger than the typical grayish browns. True. > I think it's great that we're actually *thinking* about colors this time, > since color choice the last time (and, I suspect, also the first time) was > somewhat of a haphazard process. This is definitely a good process. I like how your moderating us to components, not entire mockups. I wasn't expecting us to be this disciplined. I think this is letting us get to a deeper understanding of what GNOME is, was, and should be. Of course, once the iterative part is finished . . . > > Anyway, see what you think: > > http://www.avmaria.com/gnome-color-proposal-1.png (All right, whoever's been watching from the curb thus far, say you didn't expect me to make a counter proposal. ;) I agree with Joakim steering clear of the blues. I think I could also settle for bolder if I had to, but I'm still not quite convinced. What if we backed off on the saturation a bit and leaned more green/yellow than red? Besides being a pretty popular palette these days, I think it also says GNOME: http://www.mindspring.com/~digitect/gnome/colors-stevehall-01.png Anyone else care to chime in with opinions of colors? Joakim and I have been preaching at each other for quite a few exchanges but I hope we haven't scared everybody else off. I'll try to keep it down a little until next weekend. Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sun Dec 17 20:08:13 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6929F2BAE9 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 20:08:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147onE-0007LW-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 02:08:44 +0100 Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 20:06:10 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001217200610.A29998@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <003901c0688a$defbe6c0$0201a8c0@pc001> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <003901c0688a$defbe6c0$0201a8c0@pc001>; from digitect@mindspring.com on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 07:38:41PM -0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 07:38:41PM -0500, digitect wrote: >> From: "Joakim Ziegler" >> Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2000 3:51 PM >> I think it's great that we're actually *thinking* about colors this time, >> since color choice the last time (and, I suspect, also the first time) was >> somewhat of a haphazard process. > This is definitely a good process. I like how your moderating us to components, > not entire mockups. I wasn't expecting us to be this disciplined. I think this > is letting us get to a deeper understanding of what GNOME is, was, and should > be. Of course, once the iterative part is finished . . . I'm mainly trying to eliminate noise. A good color scheme could easily be lost if it was presented in a too quickly done mockup of a web site, or the other way around. I'm happy people like this way of working, as it makes it easy to concentrate on one thing at a time. >> Anyway, see what you think: >> http://www.avmaria.com/gnome-color-proposal-1.png > (All right, whoever's been watching from the curb thus far, say you didn't > expect me to make a counter proposal. ;) I agree with Joakim steering clear of > the blues. I think I could also settle for bolder if I had to, but I'm still not > quite convinced. What if we backed off on the saturation a bit and leaned more > green/yellow than red? Besides being a pretty popular palette these days, I > think it also says GNOME: > http://www.mindspring.com/~digitect/gnome/colors-stevehall-01.png Not bad, although I feel that "the bottom fell out", for lack of a better term, in that all of the colors seem to have a lot of white in them. I like the brown, though. Your yellow has a lot of green in it, which makes it seem a little cold for my taste. What do you know. You're a spring, I'm an autumn. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From webmaven@lvcm.com Mon Dec 18 01:16:38 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams1.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.75]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 046D82DC09 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 01:16:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.192.168]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Sun, 17 Dec 2000 22:20:30 -0800 Message-ID: <3A3DCA08.83084BDF@lvcm.com> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 00:25:44 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001216223521.G21146@helixcode.com> <013901c067e6$48ab51a0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217003351.J21146@helixcode.com> <000f01c0683f$3c45a740$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217135236.A28998@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > It's difficult to brand something this large and diverse. I'm hoping we can > succeed by being fairly abstract in our approach. Possibly, we'll just have > to say "this is what we want GNOME to be associated with", instead of "what > is it people associate GNOME with?", because people's perceptions at the > moment are very varied. Joakim, Has anyone on the 'GNOME marketing commitee' ever created a positioning statement for GNOME? A positioning statement, for those of you on the list who may not have heard the term before, is simply a description of how you would like to be perceived by your prospects. It shouldn't be confused with your position, which is a description of how you actually ARE perceived. A positioning statement can be created quite simply by answering seven questions: Who: Who are you? What: What business are you in? For whom: What people do you serve? What need: What are the special needs of the people you serve? Against whom: With whom are you competing? What's different: What makes you different form those competitors? So: What's the benefit? What unique benefit does a customer derive from you? To illustrate, take Bloomingdale's as an example: (Who) "Bloomingdale's (What) are fashion-focused department stores (For whom) for trend-conscious, upper-middle class shoppers (What need) looking for high-end products. Unlike (Against whom) other department stores, Bloomingdale's (What's different) provides unique merchandise in a theatrical setting (So) that makes shopping entertaining." Of the seven questions, the trickiest is number five 'What's different?'. This is where people try to cram in everything but the kitchen sink. When trying to define your position in the marketplace (especially the marketplace of ideas), you must choose the one thing that makes you different from your competitors, and not try to say you are all things to all people. So, has anyone ever done this for GNOME? Michael Bernstein. From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Mon Dec 18 01:38:34 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAF002DC09 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 01:38:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147twy-0002Y8-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 07:39:08 +0100 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 01:36:33 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001218013633.B29998@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <20001217145105.B28998@helixcode.com> <200012172013.OAA55914@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012172013.OAA55914@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 12:14:14AM +0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 12:14:14AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: >> To me, the keyword is probably "warm". GNOME is very close, personal, it ties >> stuff together. I'm associating rather freely here, this is more or less a >> brain dump of a non-verbal part of my brain, so bear with me. Lush, rich, >> warm colors, with perhaps a little dust, like when sun filters through dusty >> air inside a library building on a warm summer day. The colors of fine wood, >> old leather, finely printed books, warm sand, cream, spices, and so on. > I definitely agree here. > My comments on the color comp are as follows: > 1. overall, very nice > 2. the orange seems out of place - too bright > 3. I really like the cream colors, for accent > 4. the salmon color (up and to the left of orange) seems a little off > too It's mainly intended as a draft palette, so at least small adjustments should be expected. The orange might indeed be a little bright, but I'd like to have an orange in there, it's an incredibly versatile color, and used correctly, it can be very nice (it's probably a bit much in a square block like it is on the palette). > 5. the top row, if used, should only be used sparingly Yes, the top row was mainly intended for those cases where you'd need a brighter color, like, say, if you're doing a beveled frame on one of the colors, or for other such highlight purposes. > I like the darker colors in the last row...perhaps we can experiment > with using these for header text, or bolder accent lines. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Mon Dec 18 01:41:32 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D1512DC46 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 01:41:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147tzp-0002DV-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 07:42:06 +0100 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 01:39:30 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001218013930.C29998@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001216223521.G21146@helixcode.com> <013901c067e6$48ab51a0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217003351.J21146@helixcode.com> <000f01c0683f$3c45a740$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217135236.A28998@helixcode.com> <3A3DCA08.83084BDF@lvcm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A3DCA08.83084BDF@lvcm.com>; from webmaven@lvcm.com on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 12:25:44AM -0800 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 12:25:44AM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: > Joakim Ziegler wrote: >> It's difficult to brand something this large and diverse. I'm hoping we can >> succeed by being fairly abstract in our approach. Possibly, we'll just have >> to say "this is what we want GNOME to be associated with", instead of "what >> is it people associate GNOME with?", because people's perceptions at the >> moment are very varied. > Has anyone on the 'GNOME marketing commitee' ever created a > positioning statement for GNOME? Not as far as I know. At least not as such. I think the information exists, and the answers to the questions are likely very similar wihtin at least the core community. Actually, a lot of them are answered in places such as the foundation charter. However, it's a good idea to have one. I don't feel that we have the mandate to create one, though, but it might be worthwhile to raise the issue with the board. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From Peteris_Krisjanis@elkogroup.com Mon Dec 18 01:45:43 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lotus3.elkogroup.com (lotus3.elkogroup.com [194.9.175.53]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92DC32DC46 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 01:45:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: IRC? To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.3 (Intl) 21 March 2000 Message-ID: From: Peteris_Krisjanis@elkogroup.com Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 08:46:21 +0200 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on lotus3/ELKOGROUP/LV(Release 5.0.5 |September 22, 2000) at 12/18/2000 08:46:25 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Yeah, I think it would be useful, because for synchronization of opinions we generating gigantic amount of mails (sometimes) ;))) Only thing we must choose is time and place... Peteris Krisjanis. From jdub@aphid.net Mon Dec 18 03:57:18 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail005.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail005.syd.optusnet.com.au [203.2.75.229]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC29E2CB0B for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 03:57:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (sdcax53-026.dialup.optusnet.com.au [198.142.207.26]) by mail005.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBI8ttK12626 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 19:55:55 +1100 Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 026783E95; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 19:57:16 +1100 (EST) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 19:57:16 +1100 From: Jeff Waugh To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: IRC? Message-ID: <20001218195716.P6829@aphid.net> Mail-Followup-To: Jeff Waugh , gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from Peteris_Krisjanis@elkogroup.com on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 08:46:21AM +0200 X-Message: Leenooks, Lienucks, Leenoos, Lienus, Let's call the whole thing off. X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.0-test11 i686 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > Yeah, I think it would be useful, because for synchronization of opinions > we generating gigantic amount of mails (sometimes) ;))) > > Only thing we must choose is time and place... As always, on irc.gnome.org in #webgeeks. There's usually a couple of us there bitching about . :) - Jeff -- jdub@aphid.net --------------------------------- http://linux.conf.au/ -- ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI. From webmaven@lvcm.com Mon Dec 18 10:15:27 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams3.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.77]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A35E52D2AD for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 10:15:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.192.168]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Mon, 18 Dec 2000 07:16:21 -0800 Message-ID: <3A3E485C.3EB53192@lvcm.com> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 09:24:44 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001216223521.G21146@helixcode.com> <013901c067e6$48ab51a0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217003351.J21146@helixcode.com> <000f01c0683f$3c45a740$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217135236.A28998@helixcode.com> <3A3DCA08.83084BDF@lvcm.com> <20001218013930.C29998@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 12:25:44AM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: > > Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > >> It's difficult to brand something this large and diverse. I'm hoping we can > >> succeed by being fairly abstract in our approach. Possibly, we'll just have > >> to say "this is what we want GNOME to be associated with", instead of "what > >> is it people associate GNOME with?", because people's perceptions at the > >> moment are very varied. > > > Has anyone on the 'GNOME marketing commitee' ever created a > > positioning statement for GNOME? > > Not as far as I know. At least not as such. I think the information exists, > and the answers to the questions are likely very similar wihtin at least the > core community. Actually, a lot of them are answered in places such as the > foundation charter. > > However, it's a good idea to have one. I don't feel that we have the mandate > to create one, though, but it might be worthwhile to raise the issue with the > board. I've frequently found that going through the excersize of creating one then makes look-and-feel decisions a lot simpler. All you have to ask is which alternative expresses the positioning that you want better. That answer will be different for different mediums, but the message will still be consistent, even if it's expression isn't. Michael Bernstein. From ulf@obsession.se Mon Dec 18 18:51:12 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from musse.tninet.se (musse.tninet.se [195.100.94.12]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E0A6F2BB95 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 18:51:11 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 11831 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2000 00:51:10 +0100 Received: from delenn.tninet.se (HELO algonet.se) (195.100.94.104) by musse.tninet.se with SMTP; 19 Dec 2000 00:51:10 +0100 Received: from obsession.se (sdu88-247.ppp.algonet.se [195.163.247.88]) by delenn.tninet.se (BLUETAIL Mail Robustifier 2.2.1) with ESMTP id 477170.183469.977delenn-s1 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:51:09 +0100 Message-ID: <3A3FF490.6B0D01C6@obsession.se> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:51:44 +0100 From: Ulf Pettersson Reply-To: ulf@obsession.se Organization: Obsession Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: On colour Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work I have followed your discussion around colour for sometime now. Your proposals include too many too diverse colours. This last picture: http://www.mindspring.com/~digitect/gnome/colors-stevehall-01.png includes about 9 different hues. Some of them are more or less complimentary while others are quite close. All in all, they cannot (and do not) match. All expression is based on relationsships between differences and similarities and if you include colours in a almost random way it is hard to get meaning across (unless visual uncertainty/randomness itself is the point). Basically, choose colours in a way that give them a clear relationship; either they may be close in hue(i generally don't like that) or they may be complimentary (opposite in hue) (i tend to choose color more in that way, most other designers seem to as well). The point is that you have to have a some sort of 'drama' in your colour selection or it will not be effective. For example, a drama is cleary created between reds and greens, but if you also add blues and yellows the effect is lost. I'd advise you restrict yourselves to two (possibly three) main colors for major graphic elements, excluding black and white. If you want more colours, create subtle variantions from one or two of the ones you have chosen. If we look at the picture above: If you remove the last three columns from the picture (yellow, blue, green), I would say you have a good set of colours to work with (other combinations are possible). I like the colour-scheme of Gnome. At least compared to the design of most free software. Too me the Gnome colour scheme seems a very strong element of the Gnome brand and it would be a shame to loose it (without a clearly superior alternative). To me it is also obvious that the site should reflect the colours of the desktop. Every major non-free, consumer OS uses their desktops visual appearance in their branding (MacOS, BeOS and Windows increasingly), and they are right about it. I dont think the Gnome icons or the Gnome colour-scheme are that great. They are a little too murky, too similar in colour and the icons are sometimes somewhat poorly rendered. But for free software they are really not bad. I really detest the look of KDE. It looks unprofessional, childish and hackerish in a bad (non-elegant) sense. Between KDE and Gnome, Gnome _looks_ like a much more though-over and professional environment. Largely because of its icons, other graphic details and the subtle and consistent colour-scale. I'd hate to flame anyone but the current design of the Gnome site (front page) does not really suit my taste (or professional opinion). Mostly because it is hard to read, too diffucult to understand where to click and has too much graphics but also because the colours (bright pink, blue and green) make me think of My Little Pony or icecream and are not consistent with the Gnome colours. I think the previous site was better (as I remember it) and was surprised by the change, which was a step in the opposite direction of most website design (where flexibility, utility, useability, download speed and design elements well adjusted for the web are gaining ground). Ulf Pettersson Designer From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Mon Dec 18 20:11:24 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7924A2BDE9 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 20:11:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148BK1-00072c-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 02:12:06 +0100 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 20:07:33 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: On colour Message-ID: <20001218200733.D868@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <3A3FF490.6B0D01C6@obsession.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A3FF490.6B0D01C6@obsession.se>; from ulf@obsession.se on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 12:51:44AM +0100 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 12:51:44AM +0100, Ulf Pettersson wrote: > Your proposals include too many too diverse colours. > This last picture: > http://www.mindspring.com/~digitect/gnome/colors-stevehall-01.png > includes about 9 different hues. Some of them are more or less complimentary > while others are quite close. All in all, they cannot (and do not) match. All > expression is based on relationsships between differences and similarities and > if you include colours in a almost random way it is hard to get meaning across > (unless visual uncertainty/randomness itself is the point). > Basically, choose colours in a way that give them a clear relationship; either > they may be close in hue(i generally don't like that) or they may be > complimentary (opposite in hue) (i tend to choose color more in that way, most > other designers seem to as well). The point is that you have to have a some sort > of 'drama' in your colour selection or it will not be effective. For example, a > drama is cleary created between reds and greens, but if you also add blues and > yellows the effect is lost. > I'd advise you restrict yourselves to two (possibly three) main colors for major > graphic elements, excluding black and white. If you want more colours, create > subtle variantions from one or two of the ones you have chosen. If we look at > the picture above: If you remove the last three columns from the picture > (yellow, blue, green), I would say you have a good set of colours to work with > (other combinations are possible). There's definitely the possibility of restricting ourselves to fewer colors, specifically the number of colors used on a single page. I think it would be good to have a number of colors in an "official palette" to choose from, though, especially since the site design might call for such things as color-coding sections. I can't speak for Steve Hall's proposal, but mine included 5 different hues, with brightness/saturation variations for each. This is definitely not too many, given the circumstances above. > I like the colour-scheme of Gnome. At least compared to the design of most free > software. Too me the Gnome colour scheme seems a very strong element of the > Gnome brand and it would be a shame to loose it (without a clearly superior > alternative). To me it is also obvious that the site should reflect the colours > of the desktop. Every major non-free, consumer OS uses their desktops visual > appearance in their branding (MacOS, BeOS and Windows increasingly), and they > are right about it. I think this is misguided for several reasons (as I believe I've pointed out earlier in this thread). First of all, GNOME is a lot more than just a desktop, and the desktop is what gets the most attention as it is, so it might be good to try to balance this a bit more. Secondly, a desktop and a web site are so different media that it would be a bad idea to try to unify them too much (Apple were only able to unify their web site and desktop after they turned the desktop into a visual circus of useless chrome, which has received more or less unanimous bad reviews from usability experts, and I don't see how Microsoft's site picks up too much of Windows' look at all). > I dont think the Gnome icons or the Gnome colour-scheme are that great. They are > a little too murky, too similar in colour and the icons are sometimes somewhat > poorly rendered. But for free software they are really not bad. I really detest > the look of KDE. It looks unprofessional, childish and hackerish in a bad > (non-elegant) sense. Between KDE and Gnome, Gnome _looks_ like a much more > though-over and professional environment. Largely because of its icons, other > graphic details and the subtle and consistent colour-scale. I agree, the GNOME icon colors work very well for icons (although I think Tuomas, who is largely responsible for that color scheme in icons, is moving somewhat brighter colors in his newer work, for instance the icons in Evolution). > I'd hate to flame anyone but the current design of the Gnome site (front page) > does not really suit my taste (or professional opinion). Mostly because it is > hard to read, too diffucult to understand where to click and has too much > graphics but also because the colours (bright pink, blue and green) make me > think of My Little Pony or icecream and are not consistent with the Gnome > colours. I think the previous site was better (as I remember it) and was > surprised by the change, which was a step in the opposite direction of most > website design (where flexibility, utility, useability, download speed and > design elements well adjusted for the web are gaining ground). Well, some of this is personal opinion, I won't take issue with that, since there's little point. Download speed increased with the new design (it's about 2/3 of the old page size). I'm not sure how exactly you feel usability and "design elements well adjusted for the web" were hurt by the new design, although I'll admit that some flexibility from the development perspective was lost by using graphics for text, etc. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From digitect@mindspring.com Mon Dec 18 20:22:17 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 608742BDE9 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 20:22:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from smui05.slb.mindspring.net (smui05.slb.mindspring.net [199.174.114.91]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA21347 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 20:22:17 -0500 (EST) From: digitect@mindspring.com Received: by smui05.slb.mindspring.net id UAA0000008124; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 20:22:16 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 20:22:16 -0500 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: On colour Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: 208.150.104.109 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > ulf@obsession.se wrote: > > Your proposals include too many too diverse colours. Oops, I guess I didn't mean to suggest that we use ALL these colors on one page. I really intended to create a *family* of colors to be used in more selective compositions (as you suggest) across www.gnome.org, developer.gnome.org, gtk.gnome.org, help.gnome.org, foundation.gnome.org, etc. The palette is a total range (figure, field and accent) of all the sub-sites in the gnome.org domain, which together define GNOME. I would heartily agree that no artist could/should work out a composition with even half of them! But thanks for bringing it up, because I'm wondering if you think that's a valid approach. I've been thinking that each major section should be a variation of one theme. Perhaps they all use a monochromatic color scheme, each with a different color from the family. Or maybe they all have one brown, but use different accents. Take Microsoft. Their "look" is those primary colors (along with other non-color devices). But each product, sub-site, or application uses a different color as the primary and one or more of the others for accent. In this way each gets it's own look, but yet stays within the recognizable family. With just the four total, they get over a hundred valid compositions. But do you think GNOME should have our different sub-sites look different, or all the same? I'll also say that there are more than just two theories about what constitutes "good" color composition, although the two you mention are the most common. Here is an interior design site that does a pretty good job of outlining some of the more commonly accepted theories. Read "Color Schemes" about half way down: http://www.kitchen-emporium.com/colour.html I'm particularly fond of neutral, but that's because I'm an architect. (Imagine concrete, white plaster, stainless steel, bleached maple flooring, and black granite counter tops--mmm, delicious.) For the GNOME web site I also think it does a better job of showing off the muted colors in our artwork. My current proposal is that the GNOME site be a white background, with light tan and dark brown page elements (from tradition), dark gray text accented by the periwinkle blue. Most other sections reuse the white background and dark gray text, along with the tan and brown, but are differently accented in the greens, ochres, or rusts from my proposed family of colors. And sometimes (like developer.gnome.org) we use more black to make it more suspenseful, or flip accent and primaries. The user continues to see the same color scheme, the "brand" of GNOME, but recognizes a new subsection intuitively because of the compositional adjustments, all of which are choreographed around the desired mood in each site. ("Help" is friendly, "Foundation" is businesslike, "Developer" is ominous, etc.) Wow, it's tough to discuss this stuff in writing! Thanks for bearing with me. Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From amundson@eventloop.com Mon Dec 18 23:41:20 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from skull.eventloop.com (mail.eventloop.com [209.98.211.225]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07BEC2BB7E for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:41:20 -0500 (EST) Received: (from amundson@localhost) by skull.eventloop.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id WAA02212; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 22:41:07 -0600 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 22:41:07 -0600 From: Shawn T Amundson To: "Tomas V.V.Cox" Cc: Ryan Muldoon , Joakim Ziegler , gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: 2. Audience (was Re: Design document [Draft 1]) Message-ID: <20001218224106.A2120@eventloop.com> Reply-To: Shawn T Amundson Mail-Followup-To: "Tomas V.V.Cox" , Ryan Muldoon , Joakim Ziegler , gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <3A3CC32C.1FF011DA@idecnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A3CC32C.1FF011DA@idecnet.com>; from cox@idecnet.com on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 02:44:12PM +0100 X-Widget-Set-Url: http://www.gtk.org/ Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 02:44:12PM +0100, Tomas V.V.Cox wrote: > > > > I think one of the main goals should be the issue of integrating new > > members of the GNOME community. What I mean by this is encouraging > > people to get involved in improving GNOME. The best way to accelerate > > the rate of improvement of GNOME is to get more people involved. > > > > Perhaps we can do an user oriented navigation structure. > > | | Desktop users | Developers | Press | Bussiness | > |----------------------------------------------------------------- > | (Contents Bar)| > | What is Gnome | > | other | > | other | > | other | > | other | > > Again, I'd like to stress my belief that the website should feel like it is for desktop users and developers, not for press and big business. I agree that it is important information and a very important group of people, but GNOME's *image* is more important. I suggest Press things be categorized under "Contact Us". Perhaps on that page, have a link to the "Press Kit" pages. This will not be too hard to find for the press. The other portion, a overview of what GNOME is, should be on the homepage. I suggest that someone could start writing some nice text for GNOME's front page which is interesting and pulls you into various areas of the project. I am curious what specific things are targetted at Businesses and not just large groups of users (like Universities). I suggest the following top level navigation: | | The Desktop | Download | Development | News | Contact Us | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- | (Contents Bar)| | ..... | | ..... | | ..... | | ..... | | ..... | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Webmaster | Legal Here is what would go in each section: The Desktop - All information for the User and non-coding Contributor (www.gnome.org) Download - Information on downloading GNOME and GNOME Applications (www.gnome.org/download/) Development - For the developer (developer.gnome.org) News - News about GNOME (news.gnome.org) Contact Us - All contact info, press kit, etc. (www.gnome.org/contact_us/) Everything else would be in the sidebar under one of these categories. -Shawn -- Shawn T. Amundson amundson@eventloop.com Research and Development http://www.eventloop.com/ EventLoop, Inc. http://www.snorfle.net/ "The assumption that the universe looks the same in every direction is clearly not true in reality." - Stephen Hawking From amundson@eventloop.com Mon Dec 18 23:52:33 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from skull.eventloop.com (mail.eventloop.com [209.98.211.225]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8419A2BB7E for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:52:32 -0500 (EST) Received: (from amundson@localhost) by skull.eventloop.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id WAA02246 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 22:52:32 -0600 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 22:52:32 -0600 From: Shawn T Amundson To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] Message-ID: <20001218225231.B2120@eventloop.com> Reply-To: Shawn T Amundson Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com>; from joakim@helixcode.com on Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:56:57AM -0600 X-Widget-Set-Url: http://www.gtk.org/ Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:56:57AM -0600, Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > TABLE OF CONTENTS > > 1. Introduction > > 2. Audience and goals > > 3. Navigation structure/usability > > 4. Graphical design > > 5. Localization > > 6. Technology > > Also: 7. Contributors and Copyright > > > 1. Introduction > > This is a draft design document for the GNOME websites. It's based on the > discussion on gnome-web-list@gnome.org, as well as my own personal > suggestions/preferences. Don't take things here as written in stone, this is > mostly intended as a starting point for discussion. The next version of this document should probably say something like: The is a draft design document for the GNOME websites. It is based on discussion by the GNOME Web Development Team on gnome-web-list@gnome.org as well as feedback from GNOME users, contributors, and developers. Don't take things here as written in stone, this is intended for discussion purposes and to document the theory behind our decisions while developing the website. Delete the following paragraph, it is not relevant to the discussion: > > The structure of the document is fairly general, and is designed to > accommodate most changes, so we won't have to go around changing the actual > structure, just the content of the sections. It's a lot easier that way. > [ More in seperate e-mails ] -Shawn -- Shawn T. Amundson amundson@eventloop.com Research and Development http://www.eventloop.com/ EventLoop, Inc. http://www.snorfle.net/ "The assumption that the universe looks the same in every direction is clearly not true in reality." - Stephen Hawking From amundson@eventloop.com Tue Dec 19 00:24:27 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from skull.eventloop.com (mail.eventloop.com [209.98.211.225]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD99C2C8B5 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:24:26 -0500 (EST) Received: (from amundson@localhost) by skull.eventloop.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id XAA02318 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:24:26 -0600 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:24:26 -0600 From: Shawn T Amundson To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] Message-ID: <20001218232425.C2120@eventloop.com> Reply-To: Shawn T Amundson Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com>; from joakim@helixcode.com on Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:56:57AM -0600 X-Widget-Set-Url: http://www.gtk.org/ Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:56:57AM -0600, Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > 3. Navigation structure/usability > > The navigational structure for the GNOME sites is by no means a given. There > has been a lot of discussion, particularly about the top-level division of > areas, where there have been suggestions for task-oriented, user group > oriented, and subject oriented navigation, as well as variations over these > three basic themes. > > My current proposal is to use a task/subject hybrid structure, with user > group oriented navigation as an alternative method of access. That is, the > main categories of the navigation tree are task/subject oriented, and we > present a small menu in a sidebar or similar on the frontpage for users to > navigate by user group, which leads to one page per user group, with a > collection of links that's relevant for that group. > > That still leaves the problem of creating the top-level categories. It's very > easy to either overspecialize the categories, and end up with too many > (anything over 10-12 is too many, in reality) or create too broad categories > that are unintuitive. I created 12 categories which I believe are rather > intuitive for the user, and span all the information we want to place on the > GNOME sites. I've not created the actual structure beneath each toplevel > category, as I think it's not entirely clear yet what things we actually > *want*, however I believe this structure is general enough that it'll be able > to hold whatever we want to put into it. The order of this list might be > illogical. I think that this is too many things. I already e-mailed this out a few minutes ago, but I'll repeat so the comments below make sense: Toplevel categories: The Desktop - All information for the User and non-coding Contributor (www.gnome.org) Download - Information on downloading GNOME and GNOME Applications (www.gnome.org/download/) Development - For the developer (developer.gnome.org) News - News about GNOME (news.gnome.org) Contact Us - All contact info, press kit, etc. (www.gnome.org/contact_us/) Now, I'll comment on where I think each of the following should land in my proposed toplevel structure. > 3.1 Top-level structure > > About > > Introductory documents. Mainly for those unfamiliar with GNOME in general, > and who want a quick way to figure out what this is all about. Includes the > a "What is GNOME" document, the general GNOME FAQ, and also documents for > companies interested in supporting GNOME, the project roadmap, etc. This type of thing would go in "The Desktop" area. > > > Screenshots > > An important link to have on the front page, since this is what a lot of > people look for. Idea for structure: Split it up into several different > types of screenshots, like "Basic", "Businesslike", "Applications", > "Oddities", etc. Perhaps make screenshots imagemaps which can be clicked to > bring you to the appindex page of each displayed application? > The problem with this is, it creates a parallel navigation to find screenshots. Say for example, I want screenshots of GTK+ widgets. If I am on www.gtk.org and I click screenshots, I would expect to get GTK+ screenshots, not a long list of differnt types of screenshots. Likewise, if I am in the user section, I probably don't care about widget screenshots - I'd rather see apps and themes. Also, if I am at the GNOME Office page I will expect to see GNOME Office screenshots. Therefore, I suggest that screenshot links be stuck in the most obvious place under the category where it makes sense. This will still make it obvious. It will just be on the sidebar instead of the toplevel. > > Get it > > Describe the various ways to get and install GNOME. CVS, GNOME FTP servers, > Linux distributions which include GNOME, and Helix GNOME would all be > relevant pointers here. It's a matter of resources how much we want to > actually support all of this, but we should at least have instructions for > how to get, build and install GNOME from CVS and GNOME FTP. > All of this would be under "Download". In my opinion, "Download" is a stronger term than "Get it". It is more formal and professional. > > Support > > How to get help with GNOME. All the documentation should be here, as well as > pointers to mailing lists, bugzilla, IRC channels, etc. > A lot of this applies to both "The Desktop" and "Development". Links to this information should be in both locations. I suggest that "Support" sounds potentially like commercial support though, so that term not be used for navigation. > > News > > Gnotices in some shape or form. Basically newsitems with discussion. Same. > > > Software > > A revamped, expanded version of the Appindex. Should let you search for > software in a variety of ways, including category, file types it'll read > and write (very practical for all the people who come onto IRC and say > "What GNOME program can read a .foo file?", and so on. Possibly also an > equivalence index, where people can say "I need something like Outlook", > and it'll take you to Evolution. I suggest that this belongs primarily under "Download", with links in "The Desktop" as well. > > > Developer > > Entry for the developer minded. Basically the combined content of today's > developer.gnome.org and www.gtk.org. Same. > > > Press > > All the info members of the press would need to represent GNOME in a > correct manner. Journalists work under time constraints, so this is where > we have the chance to give them all the info they need in one neat package. > Should include a press kit (possibly in PDF format), a list of contact mail > addresses and phone numbers (I know, phone numbers are so 1985, but some > journalists prefer them), press photos (preferably, each press contact > listed should have a downloadable high-resolution photo for the press to > use when interviewing), representative screenshots (of the nice and simple > variety), and so on. The press kit itself should be a brief presentation of > GNOME, talking about the project history, the foundation, the current > status, what corporate backers there are, etc. This should be under "Contact Us". > > Foundation > > All the formal stuff about the foundation, how a company can join the > advisory board, current board of directors, board meeting minutes, and so > on. The exact content of this section should be up to the people more > directly involved with the foundation, I believe. This might justify another toplevel navigation. I hadn't taken it into consideration. > > Contact > > Ways to contact the GNOME project and the members, for various purposes. > This should definitely be broken down by task, so that bug reports can be > directed to bugzilla, press inquiries to the press section, etc. Under Contact Us. > Events > > An events calendar, listing upcoming tradeshows where GNOME will be > present, as well as scheduled upcoming releases. A link should exist to this from "The Desktop", "Development", and "Contact Us". > People > > Developer index, developer interviews (I'd like to resurrect that section, > even though I only ever did one interview, I think it was a good one, and > it's a great way to show the faces behind the software. Actually, it's such > a good idea that KDE cloned it off our site), and so on. Well, a developer index should go under Contact Us. Developer interviews should go under "News". > > 3.2 Other navigation methods, shortcuts into the structure, etc. > > The structure outlined above is a reasonable main navigational structure, but > one structure will never fit everyone. Hence, I'm suggesting augmenting it > with a few metastructures that will mainly be accessible through the front > page: > > > Role description > > Allow people to choose who they are from a small menu (about ten items, > perhaps), and arrive on a page of quick links for the group they chose. The > links go directly into the structure, and are the ones we believe are > useful for that group, in the order they should be read. > > Quick tasks > > Allow people to choose a few typical tasks from a menu, and go directly to > those pages. These should be the 4-8 pages people visit the most, but that > are still not logical to make into top-level categories. Things that spring > to mind as obvious candidates are "Report a bug", "I need help!", etc. I think both "role description" and "quick tasks" are fixes that are employed on sites that have navigation so difficult as to be usable. Hopefully we can do better and won't need these things. The problem with menu things is people are drawn to them and may ignore the rest of the navigation. > Search the site > > A search box on the front page is a necessity, and should search the entire > site. Yes. -Shawn -- Shawn T. Amundson amundson@eventloop.com Research and Development http://www.eventloop.com/ EventLoop, Inc. http://www.snorfle.net/ "The assumption that the universe looks the same in every direction is clearly not true in reality." - Stephen Hawking From amundson@eventloop.com Tue Dec 19 00:37:11 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from skull.eventloop.com (mail.eventloop.com [209.98.211.225]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA0D12BBA9 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:37:10 -0500 (EST) Received: (from amundson@localhost) by skull.eventloop.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id XAA02394 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:37:10 -0600 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:37:10 -0600 From: Shawn T Amundson To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] Message-ID: <20001218233709.D2120@eventloop.com> Reply-To: Shawn T Amundson Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com>; from joakim@helixcode.com on Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:56:57AM -0600 X-Widget-Set-Url: http://www.gtk.org/ Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:56:57AM -0600, Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > 4. Graphical design > > There have been several quick sketches of the web site look and feel on the > list lately. There seems to be considerable agreement on several aspects of > the graphical design. I've tried to sum up those here, as well as inject some > common sense rules, and some opinions of my own, of course. > > > 4.1 Colors and typefaces > > High contrast is easier to read than low contrast. Dark text on a light > background is easier to read than the opposite. It seems clear that we should > use black text on white or light pastel backgrounds throughout the site, to > keep readability as high as possible. This doesn't, however, exclude the > occasional use of light-on-dark for menus with reasonably few items, etc. > > Typefaces on the web are a difficult problem. While technologies like CSS > give decent control over what typefaces the browser chooses to use, there's > no good, standardized and open method for downloading typefaces, hence one is > limited mainly to specifying sans-serif or serif fonts. Sans fonts are widely > used because they look cleaner, however, serifs theoretically increase > readability, if rendered correctly, but font rendering in web browsers, > especially under X, is abysmal. Thus, it might be worth considering using a > sans font for the GNOME sites. I suggest the site be designed in such a manner that this is dynamic and can be changed easily. Think of having things like a Christmas or Halloween theme. (Ok, these are poor cultural examples, but you get what I'm saying.) Or maybe changing the website "theme" in for GNOME 2.0. > 4.2 Headlines and icons > > For maintainability, headlines should be text only. The current design uses > graphics for some text (most notably the menus), and this has proven to be > difficult to maintain and update. Even though there are techniques for > generating images of text on the fly and caching them, we should try to avoid > this as much as possible. > > It would be good to integrate some icons into the site, since GNOME has very > attractive icons on the desktop, etc. However, keeping the site light on > graphics is probably a good idea, and since icons would have to be specially > created for the site, it's dangerous to rely on them (if we had an icon per > section, adding a new section would entail finding an icon artist to do > another icon in the style of the existing ones). I agree completely. > 4.3 Navigation bars and menus > > There are basically two main layouts used for the main navigation bars > (navigating the main hierarchy). One, which has been the standard for most > sites for a very long time, is the "Along the left side of the page" vertical > menu. The advantages are that we can include basically as many items as we > want, since vertical is the axis people are used to scrolling on anyway. The > disadvantage is that subnavigation is difficult to integrate intuitively > (most attempts use an indenting system, which tends to make the menu very > wide). > > The other, which has become more common lately, is the stacked horizontal > navbars along the top of the page. The advantages of this is that revealing > several levels of navigation is very easy and intuitive, by adding bars below > each other, The disadvantage is that it's somewhat limiting in the number of > items that can be included on each level of navigation. > > Personally, I've come to prefer the stacked horizontal bars, if they're > practical given the navigation structure, for a number of reasons. They stay > out of the way a lot more than the vertical menu (since the vertical menus > usually means wrapping the whole content in a table and putting the menu in a > table cell to the left of it, so that there's essentially a strip of blank > space all the way down below the menu bar), it takes up less screen > realestate in general, and it's a model most people are comfortable with. > > We could optionally also include "breadcrumbs" to make finding out exactly > where you are in the structure simpler (breadcrumbs are the category > > subcategory > current page used on for instance yahoo.) > > If we use horizontal stacked bars, I suggest we place the alternate > navigation methods (user group based, quick links, search) in a column along > one of the sides of the frontpage, possibly in little boxes. Because of the long list of things that might potentially be in the secondary menu, I suggest a more standard horizontal toplevel with the vertical secondary. A dual vertical would be difficult to do properly without using graphical text. In addition, if the site is in that big table, you can flip flop between the differenty styles at will. I think the vertical one will be easier initially. > 5. Localization > > We've amply discussed this. I'm going to write a section on it, but I believe > it's not vital right now, and I really want to just get this document out > there. Perhaps someone who has strong opinions supporting Localization should write a draft of this section. I also believe it is not important at this time, but it will quickly become important when implementation eventually begins. > > 6. Technology > > Technology should be decided after a few days of discussion and fleshing out > of the sections above. > I suggest stating it is tenatively PHP with mySQL, because it sounds like that's what most people are thinking. Obviously the group as a whole won't decide this: the implementors and maintainers of the site will determine it. -Shawn -- Shawn T. Amundson amundson@eventloop.com Research and Development http://www.eventloop.com/ EventLoop, Inc. http://www.snorfle.net/ "The assumption that the universe looks the same in every direction is clearly not true in reality." - Stephen Hawking From amundson@eventloop.com Tue Dec 19 00:52:09 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from skull.eventloop.com (mail.eventloop.com [209.98.211.225]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09EAF2BB7B for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:52:09 -0500 (EST) Received: (from amundson@localhost) by skull.eventloop.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id XAA02477; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:52:07 -0600 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:52:07 -0600 From: Shawn T Amundson To: digitect Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001218235207.E2120@eventloop.com> Reply-To: Shawn T Amundson Mail-Followup-To: digitect , gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <003901c0688a$defbe6c0$0201a8c0@pc001> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <003901c0688a$defbe6c0$0201a8c0@pc001>; from digitect@mindspring.com on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 07:38:41PM -0500 X-Widget-Set-Url: http://www.gtk.org/ Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 07:38:41PM -0500, digitect wrote: > > Anyone else care to chime in with opinions of colors? Joakim and I have been > preaching at each other for quite a few exchanges but I hope we haven't scared > everybody else off. I'll try to keep it down a little until next weekend. I have a hard time visualizing what the site will look like without seeing a full mockup. :-( I will suggest that we might want different color schemes on different parts of the site. For example, the murky brown color might be a good starting point for the development portion of the site, while happier brighter colors might be better for providing info to users. Just a thought. I definately think that GNotices should have a unique look and a branding of it's own, as well as "fit in". -Shawn -- Shawn T. Amundson amundson@eventloop.com Research and Development http://www.eventloop.com/ EventLoop, Inc. http://www.snorfle.net/ "The assumption that the universe looks the same in every direction is clearly not true in reality." - Stephen Hawking From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Tue Dec 19 00:54:58 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 939022BB7B for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:54:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id XAA168182 (8.9.1/50); Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:54:09 -0600 Message-Id: <200012190554.XAA168182@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: 2. Audience (was Re: Design document [Draft 1]) From: Ryan Muldoon To: Shawn T Amundson Cc: Tomas "V.V.Cox" , Joakim Ziegler , gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20001218224106.A2120@eventloop.com> References: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <3A3CC32C.1FF011DA@idecnet.com> <20001218224106.A2120@eventloop.com> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 19 Dec 2000 09:55:14 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > Again, I'd like to stress my belief that the website should feel > like it is for desktop users and developers, not for press and > big business. I agree that it is important information and a very > important group of people, but GNOME's *image* is more important. > I completely agree > I suggest Press things be categorized under "Contact Us". Perhaps > on that page, have a link to the "Press Kit" pages. This will not > be too hard to find for the press. The other portion, a overview > of what GNOME is, should be on the homepage. I suggest that someone > could start writing some nice text for GNOME's front page which is > interesting and pulls you into various areas of the project. > This sounds like a good idea to me > I am curious what specific things are targetted at Businesses and > not just large groups of users (like Universities). > I think the intention was to get businesses looking at the foundation. I guess that this could fit under "contact us" - but we should aim for clarity whenever possible. > I suggest the following top level navigation: > > | | The Desktop | Download | Development | News | Contact Us | > |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > | (Contents Bar)| > | ..... | > | ..... | > | ..... | > | ..... | > | ..... | > |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > | Webmaster | Legal > > Here is what would go in each section: > > The Desktop - All information for the User and non-coding Contributor (www.gnome.org) > Download - Information on downloading GNOME and GNOME Applications (www.gnome.org/download/) > Development - For the developer (developer.gnome.org) > News - News about GNOME (news.gnome.org) > Contact Us - All contact info, press kit, etc. (www.gnome.org/contact_us/) > what about a "Projects" subheading? This might be useful to point to sub-groups, like Documentation, Translation, UI, Sound, etc. The benefit of a "projects" section would be that my "projects of the week" idea would fall nicely under that category. (wording would have to change though...) --Ryan From amundson@eventloop.com Tue Dec 19 01:02:09 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from skull.eventloop.com (mail.eventloop.com [209.98.211.225]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84FCD2BB7B for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 01:02:08 -0500 (EST) Received: (from amundson@localhost) by skull.eventloop.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id AAA02553; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:01:59 -0600 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:01:59 -0600 From: Shawn T Amundson To: Ryan Muldoon Cc: "Tomas V.V.Cox" , Joakim Ziegler , gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: 2. Audience (was Re: Design document [Draft 1]) Message-ID: <20001219000159.F2120@eventloop.com> Reply-To: Shawn T Amundson Mail-Followup-To: Ryan Muldoon , "Tomas V.V.Cox" , Joakim Ziegler , gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <3A3CC32C.1FF011DA@idecnet.com> <20001218224106.A2120@eventloop.com> <200012190554.XAA168182@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012190554.XAA168182@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 09:55:14AM +0500 X-Widget-Set-Url: http://www.gtk.org/ Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 09:55:14AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > > > I am curious what specific things are targetted at Businesses and > > not just large groups of users (like Universities). > > > I think the intention was to get businesses looking at the foundation. > I guess that this could fit under "contact us" - but we should aim for > clarity whenever possible. Ok, I suggest "Foundation" also be a toplevel heading which takes you to the foundation website. > > > I suggest the following top level navigation: > > > > | | The Desktop | Download | Development | News | Contact Us | > > |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > | (Contents Bar)| > > | ..... | > > | ..... | > > | ..... | > > | ..... | > > | ..... | > > |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > | Webmaster | Legal > > > > Here is what would go in each section: > > > > The Desktop - All information for the User and non-coding Contributor (www.gnome.org) > > Download - Information on downloading GNOME and GNOME Applications (www.gnome.org/download/) > > Development - For the developer (developer.gnome.org) > > News - News about GNOME (news.gnome.org) > > Contact Us - All contact info, press kit, etc. (www.gnome.org/contact_us/) > > > what about a "Projects" subheading? This might be useful to point to > sub-groups, like Documentation, Translation, UI, Sound, etc. > > The benefit of a "projects" section would be that my "projects of the week" > idea would fall nicely under that category. (wording would have to change > though...) > This would go under "The Desktop" since they are contributor things. There will be quite a few things on the sidebar, and we should probably go over each area one-by-one and figure out exactly what goes in each area. First we need to agree on an initial set of toplevel navigation controls. If later on we can't resolve where things should go, we start over. -Shawn -- Shawn T. Amundson amundson@eventloop.com Research and Development http://www.eventloop.com/ EventLoop, Inc. http://www.snorfle.net/ "The assumption that the universe looks the same in every direction is clearly not true in reality." - Stephen Hawking From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Tue Dec 19 01:02:50 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1EF72BB7B for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 01:02:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id AAA51320 (8.9.1/50); Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:02:40 -0600 Message-Id: <200012190602.AAA51320@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: GNOME colors From: Ryan Muldoon To: Shawn T Amundson Cc: digitect , gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20001218235207.E2120@eventloop.com> References: <003901c0688a$defbe6c0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001218235207.E2120@eventloop.com> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 19 Dec 2000 10:03:46 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 07:38:41PM -0500, digitect wrote: > > > > Anyone else care to chime in with opinions of colors? Joakim and I have been > > preaching at each other for quite a few exchanges but I hope we haven't scared > > everybody else off. I'll try to keep it down a little until next weekend. > > I have a hard time visualizing what the site will look like > without seeing a full mockup. :-( > I think this is what is holding back most other people on the list as well.... digitect has a decent mockup of some color ideas already.....maybe he can spend a little time working on it to add in his color suggestions? In a couple days I'll try and do the same, as time allows. > I will suggest that we might want different color schemes on > different parts of the site. For example, the murky brown > color might be a good starting point for the development portion > of the site, while happier brighter colors might be better for > providing info to users. Just a thought. I definately think > that GNotices should have a unique look and a branding of it's > own, as well as "fit in". I think a good idea is what digitect mentioned earlier: establishing a set of colors to work with, and then have each subsite be a different arrangement of those colors. It would let each section have its own identity, while being easily associated with the gnome.org umbrella. That gives us a lot of leeway for each section. Some common elements (like text) should be consistent throughout, of course. --Ryan From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Tue Dec 19 01:12:49 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD8422BB7B for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 01:12:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id AAA19364 (8.9.1/50); Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:12:25 -0600 Message-Id: <200012190612.AAA19364@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: 2. Audience (was Re: Design document [Draft 1]) From: Ryan Muldoon To: Shawn T Amundson Cc: Tomas "V.V.Cox" , Joakim Ziegler , gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20001219000159.F2120@eventloop.com> References: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <3A3CC32C.1FF011DA@idecnet.com> <20001218224106.A2120@eventloop.com> <200012190554.XAA168182@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219000159.F2120@eventloop.com> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 19 Dec 2000 10:13:30 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 09:55:14AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > > > > > I am curious what specific things are targetted at Businesses and > > > not just large groups of users (like Universities). > > > > > I think the intention was to get businesses looking at the foundation. > > I guess that this could fit under "contact us" - but we should aim for > > clarity whenever possible. > > Ok, I suggest "Foundation" also be a toplevel heading which takes you to > the foundation website. > ok, that sounds like a good idea > > > > > I suggest the following top level navigation: > > > > > > | | The Desktop | Download | Development | News | Contact Us | > > > |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > | (Contents Bar)| > > > | ..... | > > > | ..... | > > > | ..... | > > > | ..... | > > > | ..... | > > > |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > | Webmaster | Legal > > > > > > Here is what would go in each section: > > > > > > The Desktop - All information for the User and non-coding Contributor (www.gnome.org) > > > Download - Information on downloading GNOME and GNOME Applications (www.gnome.org/download/) > > > Development - For the developer (developer.gnome.org) > > > News - News about GNOME (news.gnome.org) > > > Contact Us - All contact info, press kit, etc. (www.gnome.org/contact_us/) > > > > > what about a "Projects" subheading? This might be useful to point to > > sub-groups, like Documentation, Translation, UI, Sound, etc. > > > > The benefit of a "projects" section would be that my "projects of the week" > > idea would fall nicely under that category. (wording would have to change > > though...) > > > > This would go under "The Desktop" since they are contributor > things. > > There will be quite a few things on the sidebar, and we should > probably go over each area one-by-one and figure out exactly > what goes in each area. First we need to agree on an initial set > of toplevel navigation controls. If later on we can't resolve > where things should go, we start over. > I think that we should avoid things like sub-sub-headings if possible..... I'll try and think about this tomorrow and see if I can come up with a suggested navigation system. --Ryan From amundson@eventloop.com Tue Dec 19 01:13:21 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from skull.eventloop.com (mail.eventloop.com [209.98.211.225]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FDD12BB7B for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 01:13:20 -0500 (EST) Received: (from amundson@localhost) by skull.eventloop.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id AAA02638; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:13:18 -0600 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:13:18 -0600 From: Shawn T Amundson To: Ryan Muldoon Cc: digitect , gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001219001318.A2615@eventloop.com> Reply-To: Shawn T Amundson Mail-Followup-To: Ryan Muldoon , digitect , gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <003901c0688a$defbe6c0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001218235207.E2120@eventloop.com> <200012190602.AAA51320@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012190602.AAA51320@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:03:46AM +0500 X-Widget-Set-Url: http://www.gtk.org/ Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:03:46AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > > I think a good idea is what digitect mentioned earlier: establishing a set of > colors to work with, and then have each subsite be a different arrangement of > those colors. It would let each section have its own identity, while being > easily associated with the gnome.org umbrella. That gives us a lot of leeway > for each section. Some common elements (like text) should be consistent > throughout, of course. > I admit I read through the color thread *really* quickly. ;-) -Shawn -- Shawn T. Amundson amundson@eventloop.com Research and Development http://www.eventloop.com/ EventLoop, Inc. http://www.snorfle.net/ "The assumption that the universe looks the same in every direction is clearly not true in reality." - Stephen Hawking From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Tue Dec 19 08:53:43 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D3E72BEFE for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:53:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148NDD-0006uq-00; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:53:52 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:49:17 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: "Tomas V.V.Cox" , Ryan Muldoon , gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: 2. Audience (was Re: Design document [Draft 1]) Message-ID: <20001219084917.B2280@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: "Tomas V.V.Cox" , Ryan Muldoon , gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <3A3CC32C.1FF011DA@idecnet.com> <20001218224106.A2120@eventloop.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20001218224106.A2120@eventloop.com>; from amundson@eventloop.com on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 10:41:07PM -0600 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 10:41:07PM -0600, Shawn T Amundson wrote: > Again, I'd like to stress my belief that the website should feel > like it is for desktop users and developers, not for press and > big business. I agree that it is important information and a very > important group of people, but GNOME's *image* is more important. > I suggest Press things be categorized under "Contact Us". Perhaps > on that page, have a link to the "Press Kit" pages. This will not > be too hard to find for the press. The other portion, a overview > of what GNOME is, should be on the homepage. I suggest that someone > could start writing some nice text for GNOME's front page which is > interesting and pulls you into various areas of the project. Having press as a top-level navigation category is a good idea, I think. It doesn't skew the focus of the site significantly away from users and developers, since there will be about 10 top level categories no matter what we do. Since press stuff isn't just about contact, but also about a specific type of information, it's very useful to put it all in one place. > I am curious what specific things are targetted at Businesses and > not just large groups of users (like Universities). There are a couple of things. First of all, information on/marketing for the foundation targetted towards businesses who might want to join the advisory board. Secondly, Red Hat have asked me in the past about a place to put information for ISVs who are considering porting their applications to GNOME (and have volunteered to produce that information). > I suggest the following top level navigation: > > | | The Desktop | Download | Development | News | Contact Us | > |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > | (Contents Bar)| > | ..... | > | ..... | > | ..... | > | ..... | > | ..... | > |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > | Webmaster | Legal > Here is what would go in each section: > The Desktop - All information for the User and non-coding Contributor (www.gnome.org) > Download - Information on downloading GNOME and GNOME Applications (www.gnome.org/download/) > Development - For the developer (developer.gnome.org) > News - News about GNOME (news.gnome.org) > Contact Us - All contact info, press kit, etc. (www.gnome.org/contact_us/) > Everything else would be in the sidebar under one of these categories. These categories seem very broad to me. Specifically "The Desktop" would have around 10 subcategories, while "Download" would hardly have any. If "Download" is a top-level category, why isn't "Screenshots"? They're both things people do a lot, and are likely to do immediately. I think the navigational structure needs more thinking. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Tue Dec 19 08:54:56 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8963D2BEFE for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:54:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148NF1-0007rQ-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:55:43 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:51:09 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: 2. Audience (was Re: Design document [Draft 1]) Message-ID: <20001219085109.C2280@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <3A3CC32C.1FF011DA@idecnet.com> <20001218224106.A2120@eventloop.com> <200012190554.XAA168182@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219000159.F2120@eventloop.com> <200012190612.AAA19364@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012190612.AAA19364@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:13:30AM +0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:13:30AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: >> On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 09:55:14AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: >> There will be quite a few things on the sidebar, and we should >> probably go over each area one-by-one and figure out exactly >> what goes in each area. First we need to agree on an initial set >> of toplevel navigation controls. If later on we can't resolve >> where things should go, we start over. > I think that we should avoid things like sub-sub-headings if possible..... > I'll try and think about this tomorrow and see if I can come up with a > suggested navigation system. Just a word of warning: It's usually very hard to avoid three levels of navigation on a site that has any amount of content at all. This goes double if you want rather few top level categories (like "The Desktop" would be impossible to categorize properly with only one more level under it). -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Tue Dec 19 09:25:25 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B83202BB87 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:25:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148NiW-0004Sj-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:26:12 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:21:37 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] Message-ID: <20001219092137.D2280@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> <20001218232425.C2120@eventloop.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20001218232425.C2120@eventloop.com>; from amundson@eventloop.com on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 11:24:26PM -0600 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 11:24:26PM -0600, Shawn T Amundson wrote: > On Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:56:57AM -0600, Joakim Ziegler wrote: > I think that this is too many things. I already e-mailed this out a few > minutes ago, but I'll repeat so the comments below make sense: > Toplevel categories: > > The Desktop - All information for the User and non-coding Contributor (www.gnome.org) > Download - Information on downloading GNOME and GNOME Applications (www.gnome.org/download/) > Development - For the developer (developer.gnome.org) > News - News about GNOME (news.gnome.org) > Contact Us - All contact info, press kit, etc. (www.gnome.org/contact_us/) > Now, I'll comment on where I think each of the following should land in > my proposed toplevel structure. I think this is too few things, by far. Look at any largish company site that has a set of products and activities ranging as wide as the GNOME project. On the Microsoft frontpage, I count 32 top-level navigation links, not counting the links inside the actual body part of the site, sorted into 6 categories of links. The KDE site has 37 links on the front page navigational structure, separated into 10 categgories of links. Adobe has 7 main navigation categories. Red Hat has 19 links in 6 categories. The new Helix Code site will have 9 top level categories. All are more than 5, some a lot more. (Yes, I'm making the assumption here that these sites do things right. I think that's a reasonable one.) >> About >> Introductory documents. Mainly for those unfamiliar with GNOME in general, >> and who want a quick way to figure out what this is all about. Includes the >> a "What is GNOME" document, the general GNOME FAQ, and also documents for >> companies interested in supporting GNOME, the project roadmap, etc. > This type of thing would go in "The Desktop" area. It's not just about the desktop, though. As I've said so many times that people might actually find it boring already, GNOME is a lot more than a desktop, and the desktop is already the thing getting the most exposure. The other about stuff are introductions to GNOME as a whole, history of the GNOME project, roadmaps and release schedules, what companies are backing GNOME, etc. >> Screenshots >> An important link to have on the front page, since this is what a lot of >> people look for. Idea for structure: Split it up into several different >> types of screenshots, like "Basic", "Businesslike", "Applications", >> "Oddities", etc. Perhaps make screenshots imagemaps which can be clicked to >> bring you to the appindex page of each displayed application? > The problem with this is, it creates a parallel navigation to > find screenshots. Say for example, I want screenshots of GTK+ > widgets. If I am on www.gtk.org and I click screenshots, I > would expect to get GTK+ screenshots, not a long list of differnt > types of screenshots. Likewise, if I am in the user section, > I probably don't care about widget screenshots - I'd rather see > apps and themes. Also, if I am at the GNOME Office page I will > expect to see GNOME Office screenshots. > Therefore, I suggest that screenshot links be stuck in the most > obvious place under the category where it makes sense. This will > still make it obvious. It will just be on the sidebar instead > of the toplevel. There's nothing wrong with parallel navigation. In fact, just about any nontrivial information structure will have to tangle the hierarchy, or you'll have incredible headaches about where to put stuff. A good way to do the screenshots thing would likely be to make it a trivial script, so you can ask for screenshots including a specific app/widget/whatever. You'll end up with parallel navigation no matter what, since if you're on the page for an app, and click on "Download", you should be taken to the "Download" section. >> Get it >> >> Describe the various ways to get and install GNOME. CVS, GNOME FTP servers, >> Linux distributions which include GNOME, and Helix GNOME would all be >> relevant pointers here. It's a matter of resources how much we want to >> actually support all of this, but we should at least have instructions for >> how to get, build and install GNOME from CVS and GNOME FTP. > All of this would be under "Download". In my opinion, "Download" is a > stronger term than "Get it". It is more formal and professional. Sure, this could be renamed. What are other people's opinion? >> Support >> How to get help with GNOME. All the documentation should be here, as well as >> pointers to mailing lists, bugzilla, IRC channels, etc. >> > A lot of this applies to both "The Desktop" and "Development". Links to > this information should be in both locations. I suggest that "Support" > sounds potentially like commercial support though, so that term not be used > for navigation. Commercial support should probably be in here too, actually. There's a reasonably large number of companies offering commercial support at the moment (take a look at http://www.gnome.org/commsupp.html ). I think support is a good candidate for a top level categorie precisely because it applies to several other areas. Tangling the hierarchy with something that's just linked to from two different branches, but isn't accessible on its own seems very counterintuitive to me. >> Software >> A revamped, expanded version of the Appindex. Should let you search for >> software in a variety of ways, including category, file types it'll read >> and write (very practical for all the people who come onto IRC and say >> "What GNOME program can read a .foo file?", and so on. Possibly also an >> equivalence index, where people can say "I need something like Outlook", >> and it'll take you to Evolution. > I suggest that this belongs primarily under "Download", with links in > "The Desktop" as well. Downloading the software is just a small part of what you do with it, though. And some of it also belongs in "Developer", since there will be libraries and development tools and whatnot. This spread suggests to me that it should be its own category. >> Press >> All the info members of the press would need to represent GNOME in a >> correct manner. Journalists work under time constraints, so this is where >> we have the chance to give them all the info they need in one neat package. >> Should include a press kit (possibly in PDF format), a list of contact mail >> addresses and phone numbers (I know, phone numbers are so 1985, but some >> journalists prefer them), press photos (preferably, each press contact >> listed should have a downloadable high-resolution photo for the press to >> use when interviewing), representative screenshots (of the nice and simple >> variety), and so on. The press kit itself should be a brief presentation of >> GNOME, talking about the project history, the foundation, the current >> status, what corporate backers there are, etc. > This should be under "Contact Us". Actually, if we were to put it somewhere, I'd put it in "About" (Which I'm 100% sure is a good idea to have as a top-level item, per the reasons above). >> Events >> An events calendar, listing upcoming tradeshows where GNOME will be >> present, as well as scheduled upcoming releases. > A link should exist to this from "The Desktop", "Development", and > "Contact Us". Actually, it might belong on news.gnome.org (in other words, under "News", now that I think about it. The main problem with the events page as it is, is that it's hard to keep it up to date, traditionally. >> People >> Developer index, developer interviews (I'd like to resurrect that section, >> even though I only ever did one interview, I think it was a good one, and >> it's a great way to show the faces behind the software. Actually, it's such >> a good idea that KDE cloned it off our site), and so on. > Well, a developer index should go under Contact Us. Developer interviews > should go under "News". They're not really news, though. If you were looking to find out who the people behind GNOME were, would "News" be your first choice? I think keeping people as a top level category has a strong symbolic effect too, in this time of corporate involvement. >> Role description >> Allow people to choose who they are from a small menu (about ten items, >> perhaps), and arrive on a page of quick links for the group they chose. The >> links go directly into the structure, and are the ones we believe are >> useful for that group, in the order they should be read. >> Quick tasks >> Allow people to choose a few typical tasks from a menu, and go directly to >> those pages. These should be the 4-8 pages people visit the most, but that >> are still not logical to make into top-level categories. Things that spring >> to mind as obvious candidates are "Report a bug", "I need help!", etc. > I think both "role description" and "quick tasks" are fixes that are employed > on sites that have navigation so difficult as to be usable. Hopefully we > can do better and won't need these things. The problem with menu things is > people are drawn to them and may ignore the rest of the navigation. They can be that, but it's by no means necessary. Role oriented navigation is a valid navigational metaphor, and "Quick links" are an excellent way to point the way to things that are often used, but aren't top level categories. In fact, if we cut down on the number of categories, the quick links would be even more important (screenshots would become one, for instance). -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Tue Dec 19 09:30:05 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9E9E2DD19 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:30:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148Nn2-0000IO-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:30:52 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:26:18 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] Message-ID: <20001219092618.E2280@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> <20001218233709.D2120@eventloop.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20001218233709.D2120@eventloop.com>; from amundson@eventloop.com on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 11:37:10PM -0600 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 11:37:10PM -0600, Shawn T Amundson wrote: > On Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:56:57AM -0600, Joakim Ziegler wrote: > I suggest the site be designed in such a manner that this is dynamic > and can be changed easily. Think of having things like a Christmas or > Halloween theme. (Ok, these are poor cultural examples, but you get > what I'm saying.) Or maybe changing the website "theme" in for GNOME > 2.0. This is fairly easy no matter what, I think, if we use PHP or such for generating the pages. Headers and footers for the site would just be function calls, etc. > Because of the long list of things that might potentially be in the > secondary menu, I suggest a more standard horizontal toplevel with > the vertical secondary. > A dual vertical would be difficult to do properly without using > graphical text. > In addition, if the site is in that big table, you can flip flop > between the differenty styles at will. I think the vertical one > will be easier initially. I think we should let this wait until we've figured out the navigational structure. With the one I proposed, the number of items on the second level wouldn't be that high, while with your proposal, it would be. >> 5. Localization >> We've amply discussed this. I'm going to write a section on it, but I believe >> it's not vital right now, and I really want to just get this document out >> there. > Perhaps someone who has strong opinions supporting Localization should write > a draft of this section. I also believe it is not important at this time, but > it will quickly become important when implementation eventually begins. Yes, that would be great. Any takers? >> 6. Technology >> Technology should be decided after a few days of discussion and fleshing out >> of the sections above. > I suggest stating it is tenatively PHP with mySQL, because it sounds > like that's what most people are thinking. Obviously the group as a > whole won't decide this: the implementors and maintainers of the site > will determine it. I agree. Duly noted for the next draft. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From mark@websidestory.com Tue Dec 19 11:52:08 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.websidestory.com (mail1.websidestory.com [208.232.223.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E9442BC51 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:52:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from websidestory.com (pip-1.hitbox.com [209.75.20.72]) by mail1.websidestory.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id eBJGq7E28383 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:52:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A3F9374.6E11A9E9@websidestory.com> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:57:24 -0800 From: Mark Koopman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> <20001218232425.C2120@eventloop.com> <20001219092137.D2280@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > >> Get it > >> > >> Describe the various ways to get and install GNOME. CVS, GNOME FTP servers, > >> Linux distributions which include GNOME, and Helix GNOME would all be > >> relevant pointers here. It's a matter of resources how much we want to > >> actually support all of this, but we should at least have instructions for > >> how to get, build and install GNOME from CVS and GNOME FTP. > > > All of this would be under "Download". In my opinion, "Download" is a > > stronger term than "Get it". It is more formal and professional. > > Sure, this could be renamed. What are other people's opinion? > unless some naming convention is what we want to follow, 'Download' IMO is much more concise, widely accepted and understood. > >> Software > > >> A revamped, expanded version of the Appindex. Should let you search for > >> software in a variety of ways, including category, file types it'll read > >> and write (very practical for all the people who come onto IRC and say > >> "What GNOME program can read a .foo file?", and so on. Possibly also an > >> equivalence index, where people can say "I need something like Outlook", > >> and it'll take you to Evolution. > > > I suggest that this belongs primarily under "Download", with links in > > "The Desktop" as well. > > Downloading the software is just a small part of what you do with it, though. > And some of it also belongs in "Developer", since there will be libraries and > development tools and whatnot. This spread suggests to me that it should be > its own category. > maybe off a Download page, have links for each app that links to it's appropriate Appindex page? Sourceforge-ish style, perhaps? > >> Press > > >> All the info members of the press would need to represent GNOME in a > >> correct manner. Journalists work under time constraints, so this is where > >> we have the chance to give them all the info they need in one neat package. > >> Should include a press kit (possibly in PDF format), a list of contact mail > >> addresses and phone numbers (I know, phone numbers are so 1985, but some > >> journalists prefer them), press photos (preferably, each press contact > >> listed should have a downloadable high-resolution photo for the press to > >> use when interviewing), representative screenshots (of the nice and simple > >> variety), and so on. The press kit itself should be a brief presentation of > >> GNOME, talking about the project history, the foundation, the current > >> status, what corporate backers there are, etc. > > > This should be under "Contact Us". > > Actually, if we were to put it somewhere, I'd put it in "About" (Which I'm > 100% sure is a good idea to have as a top-level item, per the reasons above). > i vote About! Press information should be in an About page, because an About section is a easily understood link that leads anyone to know more 'about' something. the Press's main purpose is to inform the public 'about' things. :) #!/usr/local/bin/perl # Mark Koopman - mark@websidestory.com # Software Engineer # # WebSideStory, Inc # # 10182 Telesis Court # San Diego CA 92121 # 858.546.1182.##.318 # 858.546.0480.fax eval(lc(join('', map ({chr}(q( 49877273766940 80827378843973 32767986693280 69827639463932 39883673434341 ))=~/../g)))); From ulf@obsession.se Tue Dec 19 13:17:41 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from angel.algonet.se (angel.algonet.se [194.213.74.112]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B5C982BB95 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:17:40 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 522 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2000 19:17:34 +0100 Received: from garibaldi.tninet.se (HELO algonet.se) (195.100.94.103) by angel.algonet.se with SMTP; 19 Dec 2000 19:17:34 +0100 Received: from obsession.se (sdu95-77.ppp.algonet.se [195.163.77.95]) by garibaldi.tninet.se (BLUETAIL Mail Robustifier 2.2.1) with ESMTP id 49810.249853.977garibaldi-s2 ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 19:17:33 +0100 Message-ID: <3A40F7E0.4CF245AF@obsession.se> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:18:08 +0100 From: Ulf Pettersson Reply-To: ulf@obsession.se Organization: Obsession Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: digitect@mindspring.com, gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: On colour References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > Oops, I guess I didn't mean to suggest that we use ALL these colors on one page... ...I would heartily agree that no artist could/should work out a composition with even half of them! That does feel a lot better. > But thanks for bringing it up, because I'm wondering if you think that's a valid approach. In general, yes. But i would choose a few primary colours first and work out the variations as I designed the actual pages. > I've been thinking that each major section should be a variation of one theme. Good idea. >But do you think GNOME should have our different sub-sites look different, or all the same? Different, definately. But the _main_ difference should come from the fact that the content is different, not from different visual profiles. Visual consistency is a big problem in free software design, the value of branding and placing products in a 'family' is vastly underrated. Isn't one of the main tasks of this list to make all the Gnome web sites use the same visual profile? > I'll also say that there are more than just two theories about what constitutes "good" color composition, although the two you mention are the most common. Certainly. It just didn't seem to me like much of any theory was used at all, with colours from all across the spectrum without priorities ;). I narrowmindedly expected people on this list only to be some variation of perl-hacker/programmer and in my experience they never know anything about (perceptive) colour-theory. I'm not that good with colour anyway, I can never choose. > http://www.kitchen-emporium.com/colour.html Thanks. > I'm particularly fond of neutral, but that's because I'm an architect. Doesn't really surprise me, given those colours. > Wow, it's tough to discuss this stuff in writing! Thanks for bearing with me. It is yes, even tougher having to do it in second-language English. Ulf Pettersson From ulf@obsession.se Tue Dec 19 15:41:38 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from knatte.tninet.se (knatte.tninet.se [195.100.94.10]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8DB7B2BBE3 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:41:37 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 2724 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2000 21:41:36 +0100 Received: from garibaldi.tninet.se (HELO algonet.se) (195.100.94.103) by knatte.tninet.se with SMTP; 19 Dec 2000 21:41:36 +0100 Received: from obsession.se (sdu95-77.ppp.algonet.se [195.163.77.95]) by garibaldi.tninet.se (BLUETAIL Mail Robustifier 2.2.1) with ESMTP id 208082.258495.977garibaldi-s0 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:41:35 +0100 Message-ID: <3A4119A4.24FB39FA@obsession.se> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:42:12 +0100 From: Ulf Pettersson Reply-To: ulf@obsession.se Organization: Obsession Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: [Fwd: Re: On colour] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work >Secondly, a desktop and a > web site are so different media that it would be a bad idea to try to unify > them too much (Apple were only able to unify their web site and desktop after > they turned the desktop into a visual circus of useless chrome, which has > received more or less unanimous bad reviews from usability experts, and The point is not to unify them in a practical sense but in a branding sense. Of course it would be wrong to use ui features as buttons or visual elements on the website or excess in graphics just because you want an exact os look. Ulf Pettersson From ulf@obsession.se Tue Dec 19 15:42:40 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from hromeo.algonet.se (hromeo.algonet.se [194.213.74.51]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7918A2BBE3 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:42:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 16217 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2000 21:42:37 +0100 Received: from garibaldi.tninet.se (HELO algonet.se) (195.100.94.103) by hromeo.algonet.se with SMTP; 19 Dec 2000 21:42:37 +0100 Received: from obsession.se (sdu95-77.ppp.algonet.se [195.163.77.95]) by garibaldi.tninet.se (BLUETAIL Mail Robustifier 2.2.1) with ESMTP id 899174.258556.977garibaldi-s2 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:42:36 +0100 Message-ID: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:43:14 +0100 From: Ulf Pettersson Reply-To: ulf@obsession.se Organization: Obsession Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > I will suggest that we might want different color schemes on > different parts of the site. Completely different color schemes is not a good suggestion. It will break the consistency of the site. > For example, the murky brown > color might be a good starting point for the development portion > of the site, while happier brighter colors might be better for > providing info to users. Just a thought. I definately think > that GNotices should have a unique look and a branding of it's > own, as well as "fit in". Why? Ulf Pettersson From ulf@obsession.se Tue Dec 19 16:03:15 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from musse.tninet.se (musse.tninet.se [195.100.94.12]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B42382C9FE for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:03:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 5797 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2000 22:03:11 +0100 Received: from garibaldi.tninet.se (HELO algonet.se) (195.100.94.103) by musse.tninet.se with SMTP; 19 Dec 2000 22:03:11 +0100 Received: from obsession.se (sdu95-77.ppp.algonet.se [195.163.77.95]) by garibaldi.tninet.se (BLUETAIL Mail Robustifier 2.2.1) with ESMTP id 586130.259790.977garibaldi-s2 ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:03:10 +0100 Message-ID: <3A411E99.ACB7E6C0@obsession.se> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:03:21 +0100 From: Ulf Pettersson Reply-To: ulf@obsession.se Organization: Obsession Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joakim Ziegler , gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> <20001218232425.C2120@eventloop.com> <20001219092137.D2280@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > This type of thing would go in "The Desktop" area. > > It's not just about the desktop, though. As I've said so many times that > people might actually find it boring already, GNOME is a lot more than a > desktop, and the desktop is already the thing getting the most exposure. The > other about stuff are introductions to GNOME as a whole, history of the GNOME > project, roadmaps and release schedules, what companies are backing GNOME, etc. Desktop just isn't a good choice as a top-level category. I would not understand what to find there. Joakims original proposal was better. > >> Screenshots > > Therefore, I suggest that screenshot links be stuck in the most > > obvious place under the category where it makes sense. This will > > still make it obvious. It will just be on the sidebar instead > > of the toplevel. > > There's nothing wrong with parallel navigation. In fact, just about any > nontrivial information structure will have to tangle the hierarchy, or you'll Good point. However it must be combined with a very strict and consistent hierarchy. This is not easy of course. > > All of this would be under "Download". In my opinion, "Download" is a > > stronger term than "Get it". It is more formal and professional. > > Sure, this could be renamed. What are other people's opinion? I don't know about formal or professional but Download is a lot easier for me to understand (as swedish native). It is also the term used most widely, for sure. Ulf Pettersson From jdub@aphid.net Tue Dec 19 17:47:11 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mr14.vic-remote.bigpond.net.au (mr14.vic-remote.bigpond.net.au [24.192.1.29]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DE682D484 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 17:47:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (CPE-61-9-177-91.vic.bigpond.net.au [61.9.177.91]) by mr14.vic-remote.bigpond.net.au (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA20426 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:47:01 +1100 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0BC9F39560; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:46:53 +1100 (EST) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:46:53 +1100 From: Jeff Waugh To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: GNOME Sites & Colour Coding Message-ID: <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> Mail-Followup-To: Jeff Waugh , gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se>; from ulf@obsession.se on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:43:14PM +0100 X-Message: Leenooks, Lienucks, Leenoos, Lienus, Let's call the whole thing off. X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.17 i686 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > I will suggest that we might want different color schemes on > > different parts of the site. > > Completely different color schemes is not a good suggestion. It will break the > consistency of the site. You'll find that he means s/different/complementary/ -> this is a good idea, and makes navigation much clearer. Have I missed any? (I'm almost sure I have.) gnome.org news.gnome.org developer.gnome.org foundation.gnome.org (gnome-foundation.org, etc) gtk.org - Jeff -- jdub@aphid.net ----------------------------- http://lazarus.aphid.net/ -- "Can we have a special TELSABUG category, and everything gets dropped to fix them first?" - Telsa Gwynne From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Tue Dec 19 18:37:30 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05E3E2BBFC for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:37:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id RAA24628 (8.9.1/50); Tue, 19 Dec 2000 17:37:22 -0600 Message-Id: <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Navigation Proposal From: Ryan Muldoon To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 20 Dec 2000 03:38:28 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Since I had a bit of time on my hands, I tried to think of a slighly more intuitive way to arrange navigation for the GNOME sites. This may or may not translate well for gtk.org .....I think that gtk.org's main page will have to just have a different (more sparse) set of navigational links, and then all of the links will go to pages with gnome.org-style navigation. Basically, my goal was to cut down on the number of main sections. It seemed like a bad idea to me to have 10 top-level sections. I cut it down to 6, and still managed (I think) to cover all the bases that Joakim's proposal did. I also managed to sneak in my "Project of the Week." My current thinking is that we should try to have a different "main" color for each section (from the pool of colors we will decide on), and then use the other colors for accents. That way, we keep with the same colors throughout, but give each site it's own look. Anyway, please feel free to give me some criticism. I tried to model this after my structural suggestion for how the websites should be organized (from my email "initial structure ideas" from a month ago). About Press Kit Screenshots FAQ List of Contributors Community IRC info GNOME roadmap Project of the Week Developer Interviews Mailing lists Events News Development Tutorials Whitepapers API Reference CVS Foundation Charter Meeting Minutes Board Members Advisory Board Membership Projects Localization UI Hitsquad Sound Documentation Software Application List Bugzilla Download From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Tue Dec 19 22:31:20 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92CB92BF82 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:31:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148ZzB-0008TK-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 04:32:13 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:27:31 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:38:28AM +0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:38:28AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > About > Press Kit > Screenshots > FAQ > List of Contributors > Community > IRC info > GNOME roadmap > Project of the Week > Developer Interviews > Mailing lists > Events > News > Development > Tutorials > Whitepapers > API Reference > CVS > Foundation > Charter > Meeting Minutes > Board Members > Advisory Board > Membership > Projects > Localization > UI Hitsquad > Sound > Documentation > Software > Application List > Bugzilla > Download I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" not being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick links". Hm. Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than my proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be improved further. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From cardinal@dodds.net Tue Dec 19 23:12:50 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from norad.dodds.net (norad.dodds.net [206.65.64.207]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08CED2BBB2 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:12:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by norad.dodds.net (Postfix, from userid 522) id 28921C200; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:12:49 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by norad.dodds.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 224C8C1FF; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:12:49 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:12:48 -0600 (CST) From: Matt McClanahan To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal In-Reply-To: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Tue, 19 Dec 2000, Joakim Ziegler wrote: > On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:38:28AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > > > About > > Press Kit > > Screenshots > > FAQ > > List of Contributors > > Community > > IRC info > > GNOME roadmap > > Project of the Week > > Developer Interviews > > Mailing lists > > Events > > News (snip) > > Software > > Application List > > Bugzilla > > Download > > I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" not > being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick links". Hm. > Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than my > proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be > improved further. I'd tend to agree on the News, but I've never seen downloads as being a 'primary' link off of the landing page. I suppose access logs could easilly prove me wrong, but putting it under software makes sense to me. Wouldn't there be a brief news summary on the landing page anyway, which could then provide the direct link to the news page? The press kit also seems something that would intuitively go in an 'About' section. On many corporate (Not intending to draw a parallel of course, just citing examples) sites I've seen, 'About' tends to be a single link from the landing page, which is then broken down into company info, investor relations, press kit, and whatever else. Matt From webmaven@lvcm.com Tue Dec 19 23:41:09 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams3.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.77]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 787502BBB2 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:41:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.231.69]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Tue, 19 Dec 2000 20:42:05 -0800 Message-ID: <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:50:49 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > [snip] > > I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" not > being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick links". Hm. > Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than my > proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be > improved further. This is quite a bit closer to a purely topical heirarchy, with action items (verbs) relegated to leaf nodes (except for quick links/in-line links). I would suggest further modifying the heirarchy by: - Moving the roadmap under the 'About' category - Creating 'GTK' and 'Gnome Desktop' sub headings under 'Software' - Moving the 'Development' category under 'Software' - Moving 'Projects' under either 'Software' or 'Community' This would leave us with four top level categories of content: * About GNOME * GNOME Community * GNOME Foundation * GNOME Software Which should be all encompassing, and fairly clear as to where to look to find what you want. With only four top level categories, these can be represented by a row of buttons across the top, and second and third level navigation can be accomplished with a right- or left-handed vertical bar. HTH, Michael Bernstein From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Tue Dec 19 23:53:57 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F6D52CE64 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:53:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148bH7-0000sh-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 05:54:50 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:50:07 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001219235007.H1013@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com>; from webmaven@lvcm.com on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:50:49PM -0800 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:50:49PM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: > Joakim Ziegler wrote: >> I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" not >> being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick links". Hm. >> Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than my >> proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be >> improved further. > This is quite a bit closer to a purely topical heirarchy, > with action items (verbs) relegated to leaf nodes (except > for quick links/in-line links). I would suggest further > modifying the heirarchy by: > - Moving the roadmap under the 'About' category > - Creating 'GTK' and 'Gnome Desktop' sub headings under > 'Software' > - Moving the 'Development' category under 'Software' > - Moving 'Projects' under either 'Software' or 'Community' > This would leave us with four top level categories of > content: > * About GNOME > * GNOME Community > * GNOME Foundation > * GNOME Software > Which should be all encompassing, and fairly clear as to > where to look to find what you want. With only four top > level categories, these can be represented by a row of > buttons across the top, and second and third level > navigation can be accomplished with a right- or left-handed > vertical bar. While nice in theory, I think this falls into the "too much abstraction" trap. Yes, it's a really nicely topical, logical hierarchy, but people expect stuff like "Development" to be a top level header. Remember, we're not aiming for the perfect categorization system here (Dewey Decimal works really well, but it's hell to navigate for people who don't know it), we're aiming for something that's optimal to use. That means as few clicks as possible to the stuff that people use the most. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From shax82@hotmail.com Wed Dec 20 01:39:38 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from hotmail.com (oe27.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.236.247]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B38F82BB41 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:39:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:39:37 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [148.246.89.138] From: "Felipe Contreras" To: "Gnome Web List" , "Joakim Ziegler" References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <20001219235007.H1013@helixcode.com> Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal: desktop.gnome.org Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:55:20 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Dec 2000 06:39:37.0066 (UTC) FILETIME=[9F1AACA0:01C06A4F] Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joakim Ziegler" Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal > On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:50:49PM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: > > Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > >> I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" not > >> being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick links". Hm. > >> Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than my > >> proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be > >> improved further. > > > This is quite a bit closer to a purely topical heirarchy, > > with action items (verbs) relegated to leaf nodes (except > > for quick links/in-line links). I would suggest further > > modifying the heirarchy by: > > > - Moving the roadmap under the 'About' category > > - Creating 'GTK' and 'Gnome Desktop' sub headings under > > 'Software' > > - Moving the 'Development' category under 'Software' > > - Moving 'Projects' under either 'Software' or 'Community' > > > This would leave us with four top level categories of > > content: > > > * About GNOME > > * GNOME Community > > * GNOME Foundation > > * GNOME Software > > > Which should be all encompassing, and fairly clear as to > > where to look to find what you want. With only four top > > level categories, these can be represented by a row of > > buttons across the top, and second and third level > > navigation can be accomplished with a right- or left-handed > > vertical bar. > > While nice in theory, I think this falls into the "too much abstraction" > trap. Yes, it's a really nicely topical, logical hierarchy, but people expect > stuff like "Development" to be a top level header. > > Remember, we're not aiming for the perfect categorization system here (Dewey > Decimal works really well, but it's hell to navigate for people who don't > know it), we're aiming for something that's optimal to use. That means as few > clicks as possible to the stuff that people use the most. I was just thinking... Ok, GNOME is more than the desktop, so let's supose that I'm a GNOME's desktop user, so it could be good, to let's say I can find everything I want in desktop.gnome.org or just let's keep clear in mind what "GNOME" is and how can it be divided. In fact honestly I thought it was just the desktop, so I think a positioning statement whould help a lot to decide wich whould be the final site's structure. From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Wed Dec 20 02:11:47 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57F5E2BB41 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:11:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id BAA62748 (8.9.1/50); Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:11:43 -0600 Message-Id: <200012200711.BAA62748@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal From: Ryan Muldoon To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 20 Dec 2000 11:12:47 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:38:28AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > > > About > > Press Kit > > Screenshots > > FAQ > > List of Contributors > > Community > > IRC info > > GNOME roadmap > > Project of the Week > > Developer Interviews > > Mailing lists > > Events > > News > > Development > > Tutorials > > Whitepapers > > API Reference > > CVS > > Foundation > > Charter > > Meeting Minutes > > Board Members > > Advisory Board > > Membership > > Projects > > Localization > > UI Hitsquad > > Sound > > Documentation > > Software > > Application List > > Bugzilla > > Download > > I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" not > being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick links". Hm. > Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than my > proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be > improved further. My rationale for your comments: Press: Press kit seems like it would be "about" GNOME, and I don't know how many subsections it would have, and if they really need to be quickly accessed in the general case. News: What does this really include other than Gnotices? I couldn't come up with anything, so if it were a category, it would be empty. Also, I would imagine that the front page will have news as well, anyway Download: It seems like a single action item, that I do with the category "software." Download has a download page...what else? Nonstandard GNOME software would have download links in the Application List, I'd imagine. I've been working on a quick mockup of a front page (without any graphics for now, as I really shouldn't be the one to make them) to test out some colors, and the navigation. I changed "IRC info" to "Support", which seemed to make more sense, as IRC is kind of specific. Support would have that information. Once I have a little more time to work with colors, I will post the mockup for general critique. It certainly isn't meant to express the final look of the site - its point is to address whether the colors we are thinking about and the navigation structure is usable. --Ryan From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Wed Dec 20 02:16:10 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 112A72BB41 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:16:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id BAA171370 (8.9.1/50); Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:15:46 -0600 Message-Id: <200012200715.BAA171370@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal From: Ryan Muldoon To: Michael Bernstein Cc: Joakim Ziegler , gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 20 Dec 2000 11:16:51 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > > > [snip] > > > > I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" not > > being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick links". Hm. > > Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than my > > proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be > > improved further. > > This is quite a bit closer to a purely topical heirarchy, > with action items (verbs) relegated to leaf nodes (except > for quick links/in-line links). I would suggest further > modifying the heirarchy by: > > - Moving the roadmap under the 'About' category > Why? It seems like the roadmap would be for the community. > - Creating 'GTK' and 'Gnome Desktop' sub headings under > 'Software' > I think part of the point is that we want to integrate GTK stuff with GNOME stuff, not separate them out. We want to push the GNOME platform. > - Moving the 'Development' category under 'Software' > This is definitely wrong.....people look for Development information. There is a lot of it. It should be in a section by itself. > - Moving 'Projects' under either 'Software' or 'Community' > Projects are pretty big by themselves.....they should have their own section. > This would leave us with four top level categories of > content: > > * About GNOME > > * GNOME Community > > * GNOME Foundation > > * GNOME Software > > Which should be all encompassing, and fairly clear as to > where to look to find what you want. With only four top > level categories, these can be represented by a row of > buttons across the top, and second and third level > navigation can be accomplished with a right- or left-handed > vertical bar. > I agree with Joakim here - this is too much simplification. We want to be able to get at information without too many clicks. I cut down from the initial 10 because that seemed like too many categories, and it wasn't easy to quickly understand. With too few categories, you run into the same problem. --Ryan From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Wed Dec 20 02:34:08 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65CD92CCF3 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:33:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id BAA57916 (8.9.1/50); Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:33:10 -0600 Message-Id: <200012200733.BAA57916@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Really Quick Mockup From: Ryan Muldoon To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <200012200715.BAA171370@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <200012200715.BAA171370@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 20 Dec 2000 11:34:15 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work I have put up a mockup (heavily based on digitect's most recent mockup) of what I've been thinking about for how Navigation could work, and colors. What I would like to do, but don't have the time to do at the moment, is come up with a main color for each of the sections, and use that for the background color of the section heading. Ideally, all of these would come from Joakim's color comp, as the first two colors did. I really liked the grey text that digitect started with. I darkened the link color a bit, and did some other minor touchups. As I said before, this is for testing colors, fonts, and navigation. I'd like to leave the real templates to the artists of the group, as I'm definitely not one of them. I apologize for not putting up a completed mockup, but I am going home for the holidays tomorrow, so I figured that I would put something up for people to look at, rather than wait. Release early, release often, as I recall. http://www.illuminagraphic.com/dev/gnome/ --Ryan From michel@expocentro.com Wed Dec 20 07:20:27 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from barney.springfield (barney.ipsa.com.ar [200.47.2.9]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5613F2D399 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 07:20:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.springfield (milhouse.springfield [172.16.20.39]) by barney.springfield (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA96755 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:19:54 -0300 (ART) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:19:28 -0300 From: Michel Martens To: Gnome Web List Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: ; from cardinal@dodds.net on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:12:48 -0300 X-Mailer: Balsa 1.0.0 Lines: 29 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On 2000.12.20 01:12:48 -0300 Matt McClanahan wrote: > > I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" > not > > being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick > links". Hm. > > Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than > my > > proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be > > improved further. > > I'd tend to agree on the News, but I've never seen downloads as being a > 'primary' link off of the landing page. I suppose access logs could > easilly prove me wrong, but putting it under software makes sense to me. > Wouldn't there be a brief news summary on the landing page anyway, which > could then provide the direct link to the news page? Couldn't we get access to the logs of www.gnome.org? I think it could be a good starting point to see what are the visitors requesting. That will give us the big picture of what is important for the users and will give us a good idea of how we could arrange the site's navigation structure to meet their requirements. Michel. From digitect@mindspring.com Wed Dec 20 08:01:11 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from maynard.mail.mindspring.net (maynard.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.243]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEFD32BF58 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 08:01:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf2uq.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.139.218]) by maynard.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA12817 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 08:01:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <009501c06a84$ec48df80$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> Subject: Re: GNOME colors Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 08:01:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work I'm going to start trying to put some themed color compositions together towards the end of the week so we can visualize how this (my palette) might work across the many sub-sites. I won't specify which is intended for which area so that you can read into them what you want. I realize that the color palettes Joakim and I posted are pretty abstract and are hard to visualize. But it's going to take some time to think through each sub-site's composition for mockups. Mine will be basic blocks of color in the proportion and shape that we might use them, at 50% scale. It will help us to discuss color composition and their possibilities without actually designing the pages. I have been keeping up with all the comps that everyone has submitted to date (I think) so that I don't have to go back through the emails. They're at http://www.mindspring.com/~digitect/gnome/ if you're interested. I've also posted a revised color comp (Steve Hall 02) here that is probably a little more balanced and expressive of my neutral idea. Are there any other color palette proposals? We're going to need to start moving on this soon if we are ever to get through actual page design. Even though we've made some good progress on discussing color and structure, I'm anticipating that marrying these two will be quite the main event. Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From webmaven@lvcm.com Wed Dec 20 10:43:40 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams4.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.78]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DCE22BB74 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:43:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.231.69]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Wed, 20 Dec 2000 07:45:22 -0800 Message-ID: <3A40F218.A3A42DD1@lvcm.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:53:28 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <20001219235007.H1013@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:50:49PM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: > > > > This would leave us with four top level categories of > > content: > > > * About GNOME > > * GNOME Community > > * GNOME Foundation > > * GNOME Software > > > Which should be all encompassing, and fairly clear as to > > where to look to find what you want. With only four top > > level categories, these can be represented by a row of > > buttons across the top, and second and third level > > navigation can be accomplished with a right- or left-handed > > vertical bar. > > While nice in theory, I think this falls into the "too much abstraction" > trap. Yes, it's a really nicely topical, logical hierarchy, but people expect > stuff like "Development" to be a top level header. I disagree. I think it's worth not creating a mixed noun/verb categorization schema, and you'll actually confuse people more if you don't excersize retsraint in this regard. If I'm looking for documentation, do I find it under 'Software' or under 'Development'? > Remember, we're not aiming for the perfect categorization system here (Dewey > Decimal works really well, but it's hell to navigate for people who don't > know it), we're aiming for something that's optimal to use. That means as few > clicks as possible to the stuff that people use the most. That comparison's a bit unfair. Dewey decimal attempts to categorize all human knowledge, We're just trying to categorize all of GNOME. And as far as the 'few clicks as possible' goes, you've already noted that quick links and in-line text links can give access to items deep within the heirarchy. Also, keep in mind that one of the goals of your categorization schema should be maintainability. If you come up with new content, it should be immediately obvious and crystal clear which topic it falls under, and if you're creating a new category in the future, it should be immediately obvious whether it's a sub-category of an existing topic, of if it's a new top-level category. If you feel that more top level navigation items are needed, I'll happily go along with that, but they need to be logically distinct, not just re-parented branches. It's better to have more than one categorization schema (as I've suggested before), having a separate navigation device for each, than to create mixed and hybrid schemas. So if you want to ceate a second navigation device indicating the audience, for example, that would work just fine (clicking on the 'developer' item on the second bar could bring you to a page of quick developer links) and allow people to find what they're looking for in the way that they're most comfortable. HTH, Michael Bernstein. From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Wed Dec 20 11:01:36 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DB122CDC3 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:01:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148lhH-0004zZ-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:02:32 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:57:44 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001220105744.I1013@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <200012200711.BAA62748@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012200711.BAA62748@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 11:12:47AM +0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 11:12:47AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: >> On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:38:28AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: >>> About >>> Press Kit >>> Screenshots >>> FAQ >>> List of Contributors >>> Community >>> IRC info >>> GNOME roadmap >>> Project of the Week >>> Developer Interviews >>> Mailing lists >>> Events >>> News >>> Development >>> Tutorials >>> Whitepapers >>> API Reference >>> CVS >>> Foundation >>> Charter >>> Meeting Minutes >>> Board Members >>> Advisory Board >>> Membership >>> Projects >>> Localization >>> UI Hitsquad >>> Sound >>> Documentation >>> Software >>> Application List >>> Bugzilla >>> Download >> I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" not >> being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick links". Hm. >> Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than my >> proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be >> improved further. > My rationale for your comments: > Press: Press kit seems like it would be "about" GNOME, and I don't know how > many subsections it would have, and if they really need to be quickly accessed > in the general case. Yes, it would be "about" GNOME, and it probably wouldn't have many subsections (contacts, press kit, and some link page, perhaps). My main concern is not from a logical hierarchy point of view, I'm more concerned with people immideately finding what they're looking for. I think members of the press would like to have an immediately visible "Press" link. It *could* be a quick link, granted. > News: What does this really include other than Gnotices? I couldn't come up > with anything, so if it were a category, it would be empty. Also, I would > imagine that the front page will have news as well, anyway Well, Gnotices isn't just one page, it's a whole hierarchy in itself. The front page, the individual stories, and the comments to the stories, the page to submit new stories, not to mention the "More stories by this author" and other meta-functionality. Of the three things I've mentioned here, Gnotices is the one I'm the most sure should be a top level item. > Download: It seems like a single action item, that I do with the category > "software." Download has a download page...what else? Nonstandard GNOME > software would have download links in the Application List, I'd imagine. The main reason for this would be to make it very accessible. However, I suppose Software-Download is dead intuitive, so that would be ok. I agree with this one. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Wed Dec 20 11:16:53 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 451392C906 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:16:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148lw8-00061T-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:17:52 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:13:07 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001220111307.J1013@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <20001219235007.H1013@helixcode.com> <3A40F218.A3A42DD1@lvcm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A40F218.A3A42DD1@lvcm.com>; from webmaven@lvcm.com on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:53:28AM -0800 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:53:28AM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: > Joakim Ziegler wrote: >> On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:50:49PM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: >>> This would leave us with four top level categories of >>> content: >>> * About GNOME >>> * GNOME Community >>> * GNOME Foundation >>> * GNOME Software >>> Which should be all encompassing, and fairly clear as to >>> where to look to find what you want. With only four top >>> level categories, these can be represented by a row of >>> buttons across the top, and second and third level >>> navigation can be accomplished with a right- or left-handed >>> vertical bar. >> While nice in theory, I think this falls into the "too much abstraction" >> trap. Yes, it's a really nicely topical, logical hierarchy, but people expect >> stuff like "Development" to be a top level header. > I disagree. I think it's worth not creating a mixed > noun/verb categorization schema, and you'll actually confuse > people more if you don't excersize retsraint in this regard. > If I'm looking for documentation, do I find it under > 'Software' or under 'Development'? I've never heard of cases where a "mixed noun/verb categorization schema" has ever led to problems. Indeed, the stilted terms or overly broad/narrow ctegories you create by trying to stick to one would likely be a bigger problem. Remember, even extremely usability tested software, such as everything coming out of Apple, has top-level menu items like "File", "Edit", "Tools" and "Window". >> Remember, we're not aiming for the perfect categorization system here (Dewey >> Decimal works really well, but it's hell to navigate for people who don't >> know it), we're aiming for something that's optimal to use. That means as few >> clicks as possible to the stuff that people use the most. > That comparison's a bit unfair. Dewey decimal attempts to > categorize all human knowledge, We're just trying to > categorize all of GNOME. And as far as the 'few clicks as > possible' goes, you've already noted that quick links and > in-line text links can give access to items deep within the > heirarchy. > Also, keep in mind that one of the goals of your > categorization schema should be maintainability. If you come > up with new content, it should be immediately obvious and > crystal clear which topic it falls under, and if you're > creating a new category in the future, it should be > immediately obvious whether it's a sub-category of an > existing topic, of if it's a new top-level category. This isn't going to happen. No matter how perfect your categorization schema, there will always be data that doesn't fit. In your four top level categories, you might have avoided this problem on the top level, because the categories are so vague, but it'll just come back to haunt you on the level below. Given a reasonablys malls et of data, like we have, you're not going o be able to construct a balanced and symmetrical category tree, because you can't specialize enough without ending up with just one or two documents in each category. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From mark@websidestory.com Wed Dec 20 12:00:30 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.websidestory.com (mail1.websidestory.com [208.232.223.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E17BA2DEE1 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:00:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from websidestory.com (pip-1.hitbox.com [209.75.20.72]) by mail1.websidestory.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id eBKH0SE07649 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:00:29 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A40E6D3.F689CDC3@websidestory.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:05:23 -0800 From: Mark Koopman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <20001219235007.H1013@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > Remember, we're not aiming for the perfect categorization system here (Dewey > Decimal works really well, but it's hell to navigate for people who don't > know it), we're aiming for something that's optimal to use. That means as few > clicks as possible to the stuff that people use the most. > what DO people use most? and how do you know? web analytics or gut-feeling? #!/usr/local/bin/perl # Mark Koopman - mark@websidestory.com # Software Engineer # # WebSideStory, Inc # # 10182 Telesis Court # San Diego CA 92121 # 858.546.1182.##.318 # 858.546.0480.fax eval(lc(join('', map ({chr}(q( 49877273766940 80827378843973 32767986693280 69827639463932 39883673434341 ))=~/../g)))); From mark@websidestory.com Wed Dec 20 12:20:31 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.websidestory.com (mail1.websidestory.com [208.232.223.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 339622DEF6 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:20:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from websidestory.com (pip-1.hitbox.com [209.75.20.72]) by mail1.websidestory.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id eBKHKUE08919 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:20:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A40EB82.8927DDD3@websidestory.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:25:22 -0800 From: Mark Koopman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gnome Web List Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Michel Martens wrote: > Couldn't we get access to the logs of www.gnome.org? I think it could be a > good starting point to see what are the visitors requesting. That will give > us the big picture of what is important for the users and will give us a > good idea of how we could arrange the site's navigation structure to meet > their requirements. > > Michel. and for the new site, (this might sound a bit egotistic), i recommend we install a HitBox counter, get.hitbox.com. It's put out by the company i work for, WebSideStory. the counter is trivial to integrate into a site and provides 24-7 real-time stats. hey, i think we have site analysis down pat. it's worth a thought and if anyone gives this more serious consideration, i'll see what i can do as far as having an Account donated to the project. email me if you want to know more about HitBox site analysis #!/usr/local/bin/perl # Mark Koopman - mark@websidestory.com # Software Engineer # # WebSideStory, Inc # # 10182 Telesis Court # San Diego CA 92121 # 858.546.1182.##.318 # 858.546.0480.fax eval(lc(join('', map ({chr}(q( 49877273766940 80827378843973 32767986693280 69827639463932 39883673434341 ))=~/../g)))); From mark@websidestory.com Wed Dec 20 12:29:39 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.websidestory.com (mail1.websidestory.com [208.232.223.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38CED2DEEA for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:29:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from websidestory.com (pip-1.hitbox.com [209.75.20.72]) by mail1.websidestory.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id eBKHTbE09625 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:29:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A40EDA8.3BF462DA@websidestory.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:34:32 -0800 From: Mark Koopman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Site Analysis Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > I haven't looked at statistics for www.gnome.org for a while. There were > (non-public) usage stats for www.gnome.org when it was hosted on the old > server, though, up until a few months ago. > > It's not really necessary to use stats to figure out what people use the > most, or rather, what we'd like them to use most, and what is most useful. > News.gnome.org, for instance, is clearly popular, just judging from the > number of comments each story gets (compared to Slashdot, we're doing really > well, actually). And it should be no surprise to anyone that people want to > find out what GNOME is, and then find out how to get it. > Here's a scenario: We feel popularity of GNOME is increasing, more discussion threads are seen on the site...but are people actually downloading any software? how can you tell? no one person can read all discussion threads to see what's hot/what's not, and then accurately alter a site's navigation/content to stir up some better usability of a site. HitBox offers path-tracking that can give you a good view at how people are clicking around your site. it's an accurate measure of how many pages people are viewing per visit, and if your traffic comes from Bookmarks, or Search Engines. i'm suggesting a HitBox because some discussions have entertained more of a marketing effort, and our HitBox site analysis suits a majority of our marketing efforts within our company. just a suggestion, dont mean to be harping on ya if i sound that way. -- #!/usr/local/bin/perl # Mark Koopman - mark@websidestory.com # Software Engineer # # WebSideStory, Inc # # 10182 Telesis Court # San Diego CA 92121 # 858.546.1182.##.318 # 858.546.0480.fax eval(lc(join('', map ({chr}(q( 49877273766940 80827378843973 32767986693280 69827639463932 39883673434341 ))=~/../g)))); From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Wed Dec 20 12:32:41 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37F642DEEA for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:32:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148n7T-0002o0-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 18:33:39 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:28:53 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: Gnome Web List Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001220122853.O1013@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: Gnome Web List References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> <3A40EB82.8927DDD3@websidestory.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A40EB82.8927DDD3@websidestory.com>; from mark@websidestory.com on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:25:22AM -0800 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:25:22AM -0800, Mark Koopman wrote: > Michel Martens wrote: >> Couldn't we get access to the logs of www.gnome.org? I think it could be a >> good starting point to see what are the visitors requesting. That will give >> us the big picture of what is important for the users and will give us a >> good idea of how we could arrange the site's navigation structure to meet >> their requirements. > and for the new site, (this might sound a bit egotistic), i recommend we > install a HitBox counter, get.hitbox.com. It's put out by the company > i > work for, WebSideStory. the counter is trivial to integrate into a site > and provides 24-7 real-time stats. hey, i think we have site analysis > down > pat. it's worth a thought and if anyone gives this more serious > consideration, > i'll see what i can do as far as having an Account donated to the > project. For the GNOME site to use a proprietary system like this, even if the license was "donated" to the site, would be completely and utterly unthinkable. Free your software, then we can talk. I can't see how this is much more useful than webalizer anyway. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From thom@planetarytramp.net Wed Dec 20 12:38:19 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from proxy.jakinternet.co.uk (proxy.jakinternet.co.uk [212.187.250.66]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A35ED2BD56 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:38:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.jakinternet.co.uk (smtp.jakinternet.co.uk [212.187.250.72]) by proxy.jakinternet.co.uk (Postfix) with SMTP id CA814A7700 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 18:34:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from emancipation.planetarytramp.net ([194.88.79.192]) by smtp.jakinternet.co.uk ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:37:59 -0000 Received: by emancipation.planetarytramp.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 215A11AE5E; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:37:55 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:37:55 +0000 From: Thom May To: Michel Martens , gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001220173754.E24093@emancipation> Mail-Followup-To: Michel Martens , gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="wtjvnLv0o8UUzur2" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield>; from michel@expocentro.com on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:19:28AM -0300 X-Operating-System: Linux/2.2.17-ide (i686) Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work --wtjvnLv0o8UUzur2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Michel, Owen posted a link to the logs for most of the gnome machines; this is a link to the mail archive of that post: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-web-list/2000-November/msg00087.html HTH -Thom * Michel Martens (michel@expocentro.com) wrote : > >=20 > Couldn't we get access to the logs of www.gnome.org? I think it could be a > good starting point to see what are the visitors requesting. That will gi= ve > us the big picture of what is important for the users and will give us a > good idea of how we could arrange the site's navigation structure to meet > their requirements. >=20 > Michel. >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > gnome-web-list mailing list > gnome-web-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-web-list --wtjvnLv0o8UUzur2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjpA7nIACgkQs10SPRMEYVXwaQCfRLQKq4tVTqlz9HpIDPDjSZMk ZvAAnjxukWUHFXQ/Ae0/8TDBgpqUf895 =97Vx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --wtjvnLv0o8UUzur2-- From mark@websidestory.com Wed Dec 20 12:55:21 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.websidestory.com (mail1.websidestory.com [208.232.223.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F09C2DF2F for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:55:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from websidestory.com (pip-1.hitbox.com [209.75.20.72]) by mail1.websidestory.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id eBKHtKE11462 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:55:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A40F3AF.4F722EFB@websidestory.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:00:15 -0800 From: Mark Koopman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> <20001220173754.E24093@emancipation> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Thom May wrote: > > Hi Michel, > Owen posted a link to the logs for most of the gnome machines; > this is a link to the mail archive of that post: > > http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-web-list/2000-November/msg00087.html > Logs show this: Program started at Wed-20-Dec-2000 00:00. Analysed requests from Tue-31-Dec-1996 19:15 to Wed-20-Dec-2000 00:00 (1449.2 days). Directory Report #reqs: pages: directory --------: -------: --------- 71622830: 190: /images/ 2102723: 1348900: [root directory] 1324279: 604703: /applist/ 228694: 120716: /gnome-office/ 200024: 196679: /start/ 95088: 95087: /faqs/ 76820: 62083: /projects/ 51062: 51062: /resources/ 33919: 33919: /learn/ 31242: 31242: /intro/ 28839: 355: http:// 27877: 13600: /todo/ 15071: 12501: /~michael/ 7892: 7103: /~drc/ 7207: 7204: /i18n/ 5723: 5016: /developerinterviews/ 5158: 4907: /cgi-bin/ 4200: 4200: /developers/ 3037: 2474: /~ole/ 1111: 698: /~sopwith/ 890: 161: /~cgabriel/ 784: 540: /~chrisime/ 551: 1: [no directory] 220: 146: /~msw/ 180: 163: /ftp/ http://??? what is that? only 180 ftp requests....do we feel that's an accurate number of ftp requests made in approx 4 years? i dont think so, or else we're looking at the wrong server logs. HitBox has the benefit of being server-independent and one Account code could analyze any number of servers. #!/usr/local/bin/perl # Mark Koopman - mark@websidestory.com # Software Engineer # # WebSideStory, Inc # # 10182 Telesis Court # San Diego CA 92121 # 858.546.1182.##.318 # 858.546.0480.fax eval(lc(join('', map ({chr}(q( 49877273766940 80827378843973 32767986693280 69827639463932 39883673434341 ))=~/../g)))); From gleblanc@cu-portland.edu Wed Dec 20 12:59:51 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from email.cu-portland.edu (unknown [207.149.56.67]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE6AB2DF03 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:59:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from grego1.cu-portland.edu (207.149.56.153 [207.149.56.153]) by email.cu-portland.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id XNSRM085; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:59:49 -0800 Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal From: Gregory Leblanc To: Gnome Web List In-Reply-To: <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.8 (Developer Preview) Date: 20 Dec 2000 10:00:17 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20001220175950.DE6AB2DF03@mail.gnome.org> Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On 20 Dec 2000 09:19:28 -0300, Michel Martens wrote: > > On 2000.12.20 01:12:48 -0300 Matt McClanahan wrote: > > > > > > I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" > > not > > > being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick > > links". Hm. > > > Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than > > my > > > proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be > > > improved further. > > > > I'd tend to agree on the News, but I've never seen downloads as being a > > 'primary' link off of the landing page. I suppose access logs could > > easilly prove me wrong, but putting it under software makes sense to me. > > Wouldn't there be a brief news summary on the landing page anyway, which > > could then provide the direct link to the news page? > > > > Couldn't we get access to the logs of www.gnome.org? I think it could be a > good starting point to see what are the visitors requesting. That will give > us the big picture of what is important for the users and will give us a > good idea of how we could arrange the site's navigation structure to meet > their requirements. Hey, don't you read the list? :) Owen posted this stuff a while ago, you can get his message at http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-web-list/2000-November/msg00087.html Greg From thom@planetarytramp.net Wed Dec 20 13:18:50 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from proxy.jakinternet.co.uk (proxy.jakinternet.co.uk [212.187.250.66]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B98262CB76 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:18:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.jakinternet.co.uk (smtp.jakinternet.co.uk [212.187.250.72]) by proxy.jakinternet.co.uk (Postfix) with SMTP id BFF8CA7934 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:15:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from emancipation.planetarytramp.net ([194.88.79.192]) by smtp.jakinternet.co.uk ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 18:17:59 -0000 Received: by emancipation.planetarytramp.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 259751AE5E; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 18:17:56 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 18:17:56 +0000 From: Thom May To: Mark Koopman , gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001220181755.F24093@emancipation> Mail-Followup-To: Mark Koopman , gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> <20001220173754.E24093@emancipation> <3A40F3AF.4F722EFB@websidestory.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="w2JjAQZceEVGylhD" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3A40F3AF.4F722EFB@websidestory.com>; from mark@websidestory.com on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 10:00:15AM -0800 X-Operating-System: Linux/2.2.17-ide (i686) Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work --w2JjAQZceEVGylhD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * Mark Koopman (mark@websidestory.com) wrote : (loads of advertising) Mark,=20 I appreciate your enthusiasm for you product, and can understand it! I know i get excited when th company I work for releases a great product. However, it is _not_ appropriate to use a list in this manner for advertising a product, nor is it possible for Gnome to _ever_ use a proprietary product such as yours, until or unless it is released with a DFSG compatible license (I'm using DFSG as it's the best generic OSS definition, I think, see http://www.debian.org/social_contract ) cheers -Thom --w2JjAQZceEVGylhD Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjpA99MACgkQs10SPRMEYVVkowCeIb5S6hUj0BxM8N0kycGghIsz RrEAnA4CWb9o6L0q498U12MYhGKZL297 =QhdJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --w2JjAQZceEVGylhD-- From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Wed Dec 20 13:23:42 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52DA42DF40 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:20:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148ns1-0002WZ-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:21:46 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:16:57 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001220131657.Q1013@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> <20001220173754.E24093@emancipation> <3A40F3AF.4F722EFB@websidestory.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A40F3AF.4F722EFB@websidestory.com>; from mark@websidestory.com on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 10:00:15AM -0800 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 10:00:15AM -0800, Mark Koopman wrote: > Thom May wrote: > http://??? what is that? Most likely a malformed request of some sort. > only 180 ftp requests....do we feel that's an accurate number > of ftp requests made in approx 4 years? i dont think so, or else > we're looking at the wrong server logs. Since these are the HTTP server logs, I'm not surprised. > HitBox has the benefit > of being server-independent and one Account code could analyze > any number of servers. Please stop shamelessly promoting your proprietary software on this list. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From mark@websidestory.com Wed Dec 20 13:25:00 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.websidestory.com (mail1.websidestory.com [208.232.223.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC3F02BB09 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:24:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from websidestory.com (pip-1.hitbox.com [209.75.20.72]) by mail1.websidestory.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id eBKIOxE13824 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:24:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A40FAA2.138CDE25@websidestory.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:29:54 -0800 From: Mark Koopman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> <20001220173754.E24093@emancipation> <3A40F3AF.4F722EFB@websidestory.com> <20001220181755.F24093@emancipation> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Thom May wrote: > > * Mark Koopman (mark@websidestory.com) wrote : > (loads of advertising) > Mark, > I appreciate your enthusiasm for you product, and can understand > it! I know i get excited when th company I work for releases a > great product. > However, it is _not_ appropriate to use a list in this manner > for advertising a product, nor is it possible for Gnome to > _ever_ use a proprietary product such as yours, until or unless > it is released with a DFSG compatible license (I'm using DFSG as it's > the best generic OSS definition, I think, see > http://www.debian.org/social_contract ) > cheers > -Thom > that's fine, i understand. i was offering a free version of the product, but that wasn't so clearly stated by myself from the beginning. keep on truckin' -- #!/usr/local/bin/perl # Mark Koopman - mark@websidestory.com # Software Engineer # # WebSideStory, Inc # # 10182 Telesis Court # San Diego CA 92121 # 858.546.1182.##.318 # 858.546.0480.fax eval(lc(join('', map ({chr}(q( 49877273766940 80827378843973 32767986693280 69827639463932 39883673434341 ))=~/../g)))); From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Wed Dec 20 13:44:36 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 565952BB01 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:44:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148oF5-0004bR-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:45:35 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:40:48 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001220134048.T1013@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> <20001220173754.E24093@emancipation> <3A40F3AF.4F722EFB@websidestory.com> <20001220181755.F24093@emancipation> <3A40FAA2.138CDE25@websidestory.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A40FAA2.138CDE25@websidestory.com>; from mark@websidestory.com on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 10:29:54AM -0800 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 10:29:54AM -0800, Mark Koopman wrote: > Thom May wrote: >> * Mark Koopman (mark@websidestory.com) wrote : >> (loads of advertising) >> Mark, >> I appreciate your enthusiasm for you product, and can understand >> it! I know i get excited when th company I work for releases a >> great product. >> However, it is _not_ appropriate to use a list in this manner >> for advertising a product, nor is it possible for Gnome to >> _ever_ use a proprietary product such as yours, until or unless >> it is released with a DFSG compatible license (I'm using DFSG as it's >> the best generic OSS definition, I think, see >> http://www.debian.org/social_contract ) >> cheers > that's fine, i understand. i was offering a free version of the > product, but that wasn't so clearly stated by myself from the beginning. Free software is not a matter of price, but of freedom. That is, you would have to release source under a DFSG-compliant license for it to be considered free software. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From digitect@mindspring.com Wed Dec 20 20:34:09 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from hall.mail.mindspring.net (hall.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.60]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 589E72D26E for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 20:34:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf2sp.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.139.153]) by hall.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA22238 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 20:34:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <002e01c06aee$1d6828a0$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: Subject: Fw: Really Quick Mockup Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 20:34:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Oops. Meant to send this to the list, too. From: "digitect" To: "Ryan Muldoon" Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 7:40 AM Subject: Re: Really Quick Mockup Some general comments about Ryan's structure and the discussion in general... ____________________________________________________________ Ryan Muldoon's structure A B O U T ScreenShots Press Kit FAQ Contributors C O M M U N I T Y Support GNOME Roadmap Project of the Week Developer Interviews Mailing Lists Events News D E V E L O P M E N T Tutorials Whitepapers API Reference CVS F O U N D A T I O N Charter Meeting Minutes Board Members Adisory Board Membership P R O J E C T S Localization Documentation UI Improvement Icons Sound S O F T W A R E Application List Bugzilla Download ____________________________________________________________ 1. "Download" is a snare. It means two different things. For the user, Download means "Get It". For the developer, Download means "Here's a new version of an app you can try". We need to have some sort of "Get the Whole Core" place for users with easy instructions and HowTos for newbies. I think our current Download section is much more suited to the developer. I definitely agree with the current direction we're headed for a clear outline structure with quick link/headline shortcuts into the structure from the front page or other. The entire content needs to be organized in a clear structural format, but we'll always need to jump across it. (After all, this is why Al Gore invented they hyperlink.) So in regards to my Download dilema above, maybe we're just talking about creating a quick link to a new user section of downloads from the front page. 2. To me, in the structure above, "Foundation" seems to have a disproportionate share of visual realestate. I think I'd prefer to see it as a single jump from Community or About. I realize that they're important, but I'm guessing that very few visitors will want to use this section. The few important ones that do, can easily be transported to a whole corporate section of the site. (I'd also suggest making a History section so that folks can read up on the history of GNOME and be pointed to a history of GNU, and possibly Linux/BSD/Unix.) Otherwise this is a great structure and I vote we stop suggesting new ones and just develop this one. (Not that development alone won't turn it on its head.) I think we need to develop this by now trying to describe the third tier of areas and really try to be exhaustive with all the content we know about (like project for example). I'm sure we're going to find at least one major adjustment that needs to be made. (And BTW, I might suggest that we do this in HTML, or at least post a "latest copy" so that we don't all get confused.) Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From webmaven@lvcm.com Wed Dec 20 22:22:22 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams4.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.78]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 435312C10B for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:22:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.231.69]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:23:47 -0800 Message-ID: <3A4195CC.80CF85C@lvcm.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:31:56 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <20001219235007.H1013@helixcode.com> <3A40F218.A3A42DD1@lvcm.com> <20001220111307.J1013@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:53:28AM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: > > Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > > > > > While nice in theory, I think this falls into the "too much abstraction" > > > trap. Yes, it's a really nicely topical, logical hierarchy, but people expect > > > stuff like "Development" to be a top level header. > > > > I disagree. I think it's worth not creating a mixed > > noun/verb categorization schema, and you'll actually confuse > > people more if you don't excersize retsraint in this regard. > > If I'm looking for documentation, do I find it under > > 'Software' or under 'Development'? > > I've never heard of cases where a "mixed noun/verb categorization schema" has > ever led to problems. Indeed, the stilted terms or overly broad/narrow > ctegories you create by trying to stick to one would likely be a bigger > problem. Sorry, noun/verb is my own terminology. Topical vs. functional, or subject-oriented vs. task-oriented would be the more usual way to describe it, I suppose. Have you read 'Information Architecture for the World Wide Web' by Louis Rosenfeld and Peter Moreville? Chapter 3 deals with this specific issue of organization schemas, and the point is made that hybrid schemas are more confusing because it's impossible to form a mental model of the site. The book is published by O'Reilly, and I can reccomend it unconditionally to anyone who designs websites. Here is are two small (relevant) quotes: "The power of a pure organization scheme derives from it's ability to suggest a simple mental model for users to quickly understand. Users easily recognize an audience specific or topical organization. However, when you start blending elements of multiple schemes, confusion is almost guaranteed." "Hybrid Schemas are common on the web. This happens because it is often dificult to agree upon any one scheme to present on the main page, so people throw the elements of multiple schemes together in a confusing mix. There is a better alternative. In cases where multiple schemes must be presented on one page, you should communicate to designers the importance of retaining the integrity of each scheme. As long as the schemes are presented separately on the page, they retain the powerful ability to suggest a mental model for users." > Remember, even extremely usability tested software, such as > everything coming out of Apple, has top-level menu items like "File", "Edit", > "Tools" and "Window". You've made the point yourself that the website shouldn't emulate the desktop, but I'll still point out that websites are primarily comprised of content, whereas desktop applications are primarily tools for content creation and manipulation. You are correct that mixing schemas in menus are not much of a usability problem *once you've learned the platforms' conventions*. Users will not be willing to spend as much time learning the structure of your site as they have been willing to learn the conventions of their chosen desktop environment. > > Also, keep in mind that one of the goals of your > > categorization schema should be maintainability. If you come > > up with new content, it should be immediately obvious and > > crystal clear which topic it falls under, and if you're > > creating a new category in the future, it should be > > immediately obvious whether it's a sub-category of an > > existing topic, of if it's a new top-level category. > > This isn't going to happen. No matter how perfect your categorization schema, > there will always be data that doesn't fit. Of course. But it will be immediately obvious when it doesn't fit and you must simply decide whether it requires a new sub-category or a new top level category, which is vastly preferable to a situation arising where you're unsure where to place a new document. If I want to create downloadable printable manuals, do I put a download category in 'Documentation', or a printable documentation category in 'Download'? If you have a topical heirarchy it's obvious that you need a 'Download this document in a printable format' task oriented link from each relevant page, so the problem never arises. Now, if you want to have a separate navigation device on the front page that contains links to the most common tasks, the problem is solved. you can dedicate screen real-estate to those tasks without polluting a topical heirarchy with task oriented top level items. So you can have a task-oriented quick link to 'download all documentation in a printable format' that is not part of the main navigation. With a completely database-driven site architecture, maintaining multiple site navigation schemas is not any more of a problem than maintaining one. All you have to do is make sure that content is tagged with the appropriate meta-information when it is added, according to whatever (and however many) schemas you want, and navigation options can be dynamically generated based on this information. > In your four top level > categories, you might have avoided this problem on the top level, because the > categories are so vague, but it'll just come back to haunt you on the level > below. I don't think that the categories I've defined are vague. They are broad, true, but they are also mutually exclusive. On the contrary, vagueness comes from having categories that overlap to a significant degree, which is exactly what I'm trying to avoid. Now, it is true that more than four top level categories are desireable, and I'm certainly open to suggestions of content that does not fit into the divisions that I've proposed, But given the content that's been suggested so far, I don't see where any additional top level *topical* categories are possible. > Given a reasonablys malls et of data, like we have, you're not going o > be able to construct a balanced and symmetrical category tree, because you > can't specialize enough without ending up with just one or two documents in > each category. The sub-categorization does not have to be as deep in all places on the tree. If a site section does not have enough content to warant further sub-categorization, then it doesn't, and shouldn't be. Cheers, Michael Bernstein. From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Wed Dec 20 22:57:53 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D366A2BB13 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:57:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148wsa-0003fS-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 04:58:57 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:54:09 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001220225409.A1013@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <20001219235007.H1013@helixcode.com> <3A40F218.A3A42DD1@lvcm.com> <20001220111307.J1013@helixcode.com> <3A4195CC.80CF85C@lvcm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A4195CC.80CF85C@lvcm.com>; from webmaven@lvcm.com on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:31:56PM -0800 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:31:56PM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: This is getting very, very long, so I'm going to just cut and summarize/answer. Basically, there are two separate issues here, which I think we're confusing a little. First of all, there's the discussion of whether or not we should use a hybrid task/category scheme, or a pure scheme. Secondly, there's the issue of four top-level categories being too few, in my opinion. Now, for the hybrid versus pure issue, sure, it's fine to have a pure schema, if it's possible, and doesn't deform an otherwise logical tree. For instance, you've created four top level categories which seem to be able to hold all the information we have on the site. But is it possible to continue with a pure schema on the second level of navigation? How deep will the tree be with this method versus a hybrid schema? How wide? I'd argue that particularly since hybrid schemas are so common on the web, people are used to them, and don't have to expel much mental effort to figure them out. As a thought experiment, take your four categories and turn two of them into tasks (pretty easy, just put a verb in front of the noun, like "Learn about the GNOME Foundation"). It's not much harder to figure out (ignoring that the label is long and unwieldy). It seems to me that the usability difference is vastly larger from adjusting the boundaries between categories than it is when adjusting between hybrid and non-hybrid schemas. As for your four categories, yes, they're mutually exclusive, and yes, they cover all the topics. But the fact that there are only four of them suggests to me that they would need rethinking and/or splitting up. As they are, they'd result in at least three more levels of navigation under them, since they're so broad and abstract. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Fri Dec 22 03:13:41 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from qonos.softcomca.com (qonos.softcomca.com [168.144.1.157]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB6382CF0C for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 03:13:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from qonos.softcomca.com [168.144.1.157] by qonos.softcomca.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.00) id AD1831250054; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 03:13:12 -0500 X-Originating-IP: 140.186.103.95 X-URL: http://www.mail2web.com/ Subject: Re: Re: Really Quick Mockup From: "rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu" Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 03:13:12 -0500 To: "joakim@helixcode.com" Cc: "gnome-web-list@gnome.org" Reply-To: rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Mailer: JMail 3.7.0 by Dimac (www.dimac.net) Message-Id: <200012220313660.SM00336@qonos.softcomca.com> Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work >Looks nice. I have a couple of problems with the colors. Basically, >everything looks like I turned brightness on my monitor up a few notches. >Everything's very low contrast and hard to read (especially the body text). The body text is definitely one of the things I wanted to think about. I like the charcoal, and find it to be a bit "sof= ter," but I don't know how usable it is. I'd have no problem switching to black if that is what we agree on. But I do t= hink that the charcoal is nicer. >I'd like to see some darker colors thrown into the mix, this is a >bit "wimpy" for my taste. I definitely want to use some stronger colors. I tried to initially, but you can't use dark colors for the background of= dark text. I have an aversion to white text, so I tried to make things work nicely with black text. My thinking was th= at the highlight colors would be the lighter shade of the main color for the particular sections. That would give us the= darker colors. Another way is to use a (gnomeish) icon for the section headers. It would make the page a little more i= nteresting, I think. I like how digitect tried to use icons initially. I don't think we should have one for every menu = item, but for sections, it might be nice. That does, of course, put greater requirements on the artists of the group. I= know I can't make nice icons, so I didn't want to push it as a requirement. But if someone is able to do them, it would= look good. --Ryan ------------------------------------------------------------------- This message has been posted from Mail2Web http://www.mail2web.com/ Web Hosting for $9.95 per month! Visit: http://www.yourhosting.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------- From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Fri Dec 22 03:23:38 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from m2w037 (M2W037.mail2web.com [168.144.108.37]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3909D2DB6A for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 03:23:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from m2w037 [168.144.108.37] by m2w037 with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.00) id AF961B9A013A; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 03:23:50 -0500 X-Originating-IP: 140.186.103.95 X-URL: http://www.mail2web.com/ Subject: Re: Re: Navigation Proposal From: "rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu" Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 03:23:50 -0500 To: "joakim@helixcode.com" , "gnome-web-list@gnome.org" Reply-To: rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Mailer: JMail 3.7.0 by Dimac (www.dimac.net) Message-Id: <200012220323626.SM01212@m2w037> Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work I'm just going to add my (Agreeing) comments below.... On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:31:56PM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: >This is getting very, very long, so I'm going to just cut and >summarize/answer. >Basically, there are two separate issues here, which I think we're >confusing >a little. First of all, there's the discussion of whether or not we should >use a hybrid task/category scheme, or a pure scheme. Secondly, there's the >issue of four top-level categories being too few, in my opinion. >Now, for the hybrid versus pure issue, sure, it's fine to have a pure >schema, >if it's possible, and doesn't deform an otherwise logical tree. For >instance, >you've created four top level categories which seem to be able to hold all >the information we have on the site. But is it possible to continue with a >pure schema on the second level of navigation? How deep will the tree be >with this method versus a hybrid schema? How w= ide? I agree. The doubt that a completely pure navigation structure is possible all the way through the site. And if it is, i= t will probably be at the cost of usability, which is what you're wanting to preserve. >I'd argue that particularly since hybrid schemas are so common on the web, >people are used to them, and don't have to expel much mental effort to >figure >them out. As a thought experiment, take your four categories and turn two >of >them into tasks (pretty easy, just put a verb in front of the noun, like >"Learn about the GNOME Foundation"). It's not much harder to figure out >(ignoring that the label is long and unwieldy). It seems to me that the >usability difference is vastly larger from adjusting the boundaries between >categories than it is when adjusting between hybrid and non-hybrid schemas. I agree. It was stated that hybrid schemes are common.....so people are already used to it. >As for your four categories, yes, they're mutually exclusive, and yes, they >cover all the topics. But the fact that there are only four of them >suggests >to me that they would need rethinking and/or splitting up. As they are, >they'd result in at least three more levels of navigation under them, since >they're so broad and abstract. This is my main gripe - 4 is definitely too few. 10 was too much. I wouldn't go for more than 7, but I think that my 6 = sections work pretty well. I'm sure that they can be refined more, but I think that it should be what we're working with= (at least for the sake of getting something done). 4 sections will require too many extra clicks to get at actual conte= nt. We shouldn't need more than 2 or 3 clicks to get to everything. Too few sections also means more information goes i= n each section. That ends up being a problem of information overload - we want to provide bite-sized pieces, not slabs o= f information. It is more usable to have a moderate number of sections, each of which only have a moderate number of sub= sections. If you do in either direction, you are going to end up with too much information somewhere. We should avoid t= hat. --Ryan ------------------------------------------------------------------- This message has been posted from Mail2Web http://www.mail2web.com/ Web Hosting for $9.95 per month! Visit: http://www.yourhosting.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------- From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Fri Dec 22 12:29:33 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDB112BDDC for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 12:29:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 149W0Z-0000bE-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 18:29:32 +0100 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 12:25:58 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: "gnome-web-list@gnome.org" Subject: Re: Re: Really Quick Mockup Message-ID: <20001222122558.C9263@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: "gnome-web-list@gnome.org" References: <200012220313660.SM00336@qonos.softcomca.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012220313660.SM00336@qonos.softcomca.com>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 03:13:12AM -0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 03:13:12AM -0500, rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu wrote: >> Looks nice. I have a couple of problems with the colors. Basically, >> everything looks like I turned brightness on my monitor up a few notches. >> Everything's very low contrast and hard to read (especially the body text). > The body text is definitely one of the things I wanted to think about. I > like the charcoal, and find it to be a bit "softer," but I don't know how > usable it is. I'd have no problem switching to black if that is what we > agree on. But I do think that the charcoal is nicer. I think it would have to be either black or quite a few shades darker. IT does indeed look "softer", but that's also part of the problem. >> I'd like to see some darker colors thrown into the mix, this is a bit >> "wimpy" for my taste. > I definitely want to use some stronger colors. I tried to initially, but > you can't use dark colors for the background of dark text. I have an > aversion to white text, so I tried to make things work nicely with black > text. My thinking was that the highlight colors would be the lighter shade > of the main color for the particular sections. That would give us the darker > colors. Another way is to use a (gnomeish) icon for the section headers. It > would make the page a little more interesting, I think. I like how digitect > tried to use icons initially. I don't think we should have one for every > menu item, but for sections, it might be nice. That does, of course, put > greater requirements on the artists of the group. I know I can't make nice > icons, so I didn't want to push it as a requirement. But if someone is able > to do them, it would look good. Strong colors should probably come into play in edges, accents, icons, and so on. I'm still uncertain about requiring icons, just because of the obstacle it presents when you need to add something. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From mandreiana@rdsnet.ro Sat Dec 23 02:50:06 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail.rdsnet.ro (mail.rdsnet.ro [193.231.236.16]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B3B4A2BD9F for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 02:49:16 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 8172 invoked from network); 23 Dec 2000 07:51:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO rdsnet.ro) (212.93.133.179) by mail.rdsnet.ro with SMTP; 23 Dec 2000 07:51:17 -0000 Message-ID: <3A4458FB.6A1853A0@rdsnet.ro> Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 09:49:15 +0200 From: Marius Andreiana Organization: Web Development Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ryan Muldoon Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Really Quick Mockup References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <200012200715.BAA171370@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <200012200733.BAA57916@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Shouldn't the navigation links be top level ? I think this was discussed and agreed that they eat to much space on the left side. Use menus like http://www.gnome.org/todo/index.php3 (left margin too big) -- Marius Andreiana From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Sat Dec 23 03:03:07 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from m2w021.mail2web.com (M2W021.mail2web.com [168.144.108.21]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 652902BAC2 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 03:03:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from m2w021.mail2web.com [168.144.108.21] by m2w021.mail2web.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.00) id AC227A33012C; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 03:02:42 -0500 X-Originating-IP: 140.186.102.236 X-URL: http://www.mail2web.com/ Subject: Re: Re: Re: Really Quick Mockup From: "rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu" Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 03:02:42 -0500 To: "joakim@helixcode.com" , "gnome-web-list@gnome.org" Reply-To: rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Mailer: JMail 3.7.0 by Dimac (www.dimac.net) Message-Id: <200012230302331.SM00269@m2w021.mail2web.com> Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Original Message: ----------------- From: Joakim Ziegler joakim@helixcode.com Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 12:25:58 -0600 Subject: Re: Re: Really Quick Mockup On Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 03:13:12AM -0500, rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu wrote: >> Looks nice. I have a couple of problems with the colors. Basically, >> everything looks like I turned brightness on my monitor up a few notches. >> Everything's very low contrast and hard to read (especially the body text). > The body text is definitely one of the things I wanted to think about. I > like the charcoal, and find it to be a bit "softer," but I don't know how > usable it is. I'd have no problem switching to black if that is what we > agree on. But I do think that the charcoal is nicer. I think it would have to be either black or quite a few shades darker. IT does indeed look "softer", but that's also part of the problem. ok.......I can concede that if I must. ;-) >> I'd like to see some darker colors thrown into the mix, this is a bit >> "wimpy" for my taste. > I definitely want to use some stronger colors. I tried to initially, but > you can't use dark colors for the background of dark text. I have an > aversion to white text, so I tried to make things work nicely with black > text. My thinking was that the highlight colors would be the lighter shade > of the main color for the particular sections. That would give us the darker > colors. Another way is to use a (gnomeish) icon for the section headers. It > would make the page a little more interesting, I think. I like how digitect > tried to use icons initially. I don't think we should have one for every > menu item, but for sections, it might be nice. That does, of course, put > greater requirements on the artists of the group. I know I can't make nice > icons, so I didn't want to push it as a requirement. But if someone is able > to do them, it would look good. Strong colors should probably come into play in edges, accents, icons, and so on. I'm still uncertain about requiring icons, just because of the obstacle it presents when you need to add something. I agree that those places are where strong colors would come in......so is there something that we are disagreeing o= n here? I don't think so, but maybe I'm not seeing it. I agree that icons add extra work, but doing them for sections l= essens the burden, because I doubt that we'll be changing sections that much. And we need some kind of art, to make the = pages not feel overly text-heavy (like my current mockup). I won't have time to make any changes on my stuff until after Christmas....if someone else wants to, feel free to. After= the 25th I should have some time though. --Ryan ------------------------------------------------------------------- This message has been posted from Mail2Web http://www.mail2web.com/ Web Hosting for $9.95 per month! Visit: http://www.yourhosting.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------- From webmaven@lvcm.com Sat Dec 23 16:09:22 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams2.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.76]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFC572BD85 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 16:09:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.231.69]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Sat, 23 Dec 2000 13:09:12 -0800 Message-ID: <3A45331D.CE46004C@lvcm.com> Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 15:19:57 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <20001219235007.H1013@helixcode.com> <3A40F218.A3A42DD1@lvcm.com> <20001220111307.J1013@helixcode.com> <3A4195CC.80CF85C@lvcm.com> <20001220225409.A1013@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Sorry it's taken me so long to reply, last minute holiday preparations can be a pain. Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:31:56PM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: > > Basically, there are two separate issues here, which I think we're confusing > a little. First of all, there's the discussion of whether or not we should > use a hybrid task/category scheme, or a pure scheme. Secondly, there's the > issue of four top-level categories being too few, in my opinion. I'll address them separately from now on, too. > Now, for the hybrid versus pure issue, sure, it's fine to have a pure schema, > if it's possible, and doesn't deform an otherwise logical tree. For instance, > you've created four top level categories which seem to be able to hold all > the information we have on the site. But is it possible to continue with a > pure schema on the second level of navigation? How deep will the tree be with > this method versus a hybrid schema? How wide? Of course it's possible. All content has a subject/topic. I'll post a follow up message with a complete tree as an illustration. > I'd argue that particularly since hybrid schemas are so common on the web, > people are used to them, and don't have to expel much mental effort to figure > them out. What you're really saying is that people don't bother to try and figure out an overall site structure, because on most sites they can't anyway. I don't disagree with *that*, but just because everyone is doing it wrong, does not mean we have to follow suit. If following the guideline of preferring a pure scheme results in an improved user experience, then I say we do so. If we wanted to accept the status-quo, we wouldn't be interested in GNOME in the first place. > As a thought experiment, take your four categories and turn two of > them into tasks (pretty easy, just put a verb in front of the noun, like > "Learn about the GNOME Foundation"). It's not much harder to figure out > (ignoring that the label is long and unwieldy). It seems to me that the > usability difference is vastly larger from adjusting the boundaries between > categories than it is when adjusting between hybrid and non-hybrid schemas. Mmm, I think you're confusing the issue here. What you've created is a noun/verb pair, which is a very specific combination. To make it an equivalent to the more inclusive 'Development' task category, you would have to label it 'Learn', after which the question naturally arises "learn about what?", which is answered in appropriate sub-categories, all of which then overlap in content with existing topical categories again (Learn about GNOME, Learn about the GNOME Foundation, etc.). The 'Development' category conceptually contains many different things that can be developed. You see, the problem with a hybrid schema is the fact that the mental model they suggest has classifications that conceptually overlap to a very significant degree, so that a user will likely guess wrong when trying to find something, thus forcing them to either learn the whole site map, spend extra time hunting around, or just break down and use the search function. With a 'pure' scheme, all the user must learn (or intuit) is the 'principle' behind the categories, and they will more likely be correct when they try to guess where something is. In the case of the current proposal, the 'Development' category and the 'Software' category conceptually overlap to a prohibitive extent, so decisions as to what to include in each are almost arbitrary, making it dificult to predict (or guess) what will be found in each. This leads to users clicking around more before they find what they're looking for, exactly the oposite effect from your intention to lead users to their goal using fewer clicks. If I'm looking for software documentation, will I automatically look for it in the 'Development' category? > As for your four categories, yes, they're mutually exclusive, and yes, they > cover all the topics. But the fact that there are only four of them suggests > to me that they would need rethinking and/or splitting up. As they are, > they'd result in at least three more levels of navigation under them, since > they're so broad and abstract. I'm all for refactoring the four categories I came up with into more (say six or seven) as long as it can be done within a topical categorization scheme. I'll see what I can come up with, and post a follow-up. I'm going to try and explain my position a little more clearly here, since it seems that part of my solution to your concerns for 'fewer clicks' has gone unnoticed. I apologize in advance for the length of my explanation. 'Navigation' in the context of website design has been conflated to include two concepts: Organization of content/functionality, and Wayfinding. The advantages of picking a pure schema (by subject, by audience, by task, etc) are chiefly on the organization side, making it simpler to decide what goes where, making it easier to categorize future additions to the content, and making it easier to decide to add new categories or sub-categories when appropriate. In other words, it increases maintainability by consistently factoring the content. It also has advantages with regard to wayfinding, in that it makes it easier for users to predict what area of the site will contain what they're looking for, once they've internalized the organization schema, and without forcing them to internalize the entire actual site structure. In other words, it makes a 'site-map' unneccessary. It sometimes *may* also have a wayfinding disadvantage, when more clicks are required to reach certain content. But wayfinding problems have many other solutions, while this is really the only way to improve organization. Here is one possible wayfinding solution that I've suggested before: Create an additional navigation device on the front page of the site, separate and distinct from the main navigation, that lists common tasks and leads to the correct section of the site. We can also create similar 'audience oriented' navigation to provide shortcuts for the press, developers, end-users, etc. The thing to keep in mind is that these additional wayfinding navbars do not compromise the *organization* of the sites content, which is still according to a pure topic oriented schema. I usually implement a secondary schema (as an example I'll use an Audience schema) by creating an 'Audience' directory that contains audience specific subdirectories, each with a single page of shortcuts specific to that audience. I don't add the 'Audience' directory into the main navigation, but instead create a second navigation bar or pick-list that only appears on the front page of the site, which lists the audiences, and links directly to 'their' shortcut page. This provides audience specific wayfinding, which then leads users directly to the content that is appropriate to them. Once on a content page, they can see (by looking at the main navigation) where they are in the site, and learn how the site is organized, so they can find their way around easier in the future. Here is the key, though: Since we have now separated audience-oriented wayfinding from the organization of the site, we can have the content of the audience specific shortcut pages overlap with each other and with the main schema without fear of confusing the site visitor. The same applies to creating any secondary wayfinding schema, including a task-oriented one, as seems appropriate in our case here. One difference between a task-oriented secondary navbar and an audience-oriented one, is that a task link is more likely to go directly to an existing page in the site, instead of to an intermediary page. I hope this helps explain the approach I'm advocating more completely. Michael Bernstein. From digitect@mindspring.com Sat Dec 23 18:57:39 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BF4B2BD74 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 18:57:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4ff.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.239]) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA10791 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 18:57:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <000501c06d3c$2255fd60$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <20001219235007.H1013@helixcode.com> <3A40F218.A3A42DD1@lvcm.com> <20001220111307.J1013@helixcode.com> <3A4195CC.80CF85C@lvcm.com> <20001220225409.A1013@helixcode.com> <3A45331D.CE46004C@lvcm.com> Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 18:57:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > From: "Michael Bernstein" > Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2000 6:19 PM > Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal > > . . . > > Here is one possible wayfinding solution that I've suggested > before: Create an additional navigation device on the front > page of the site, separate and distinct from the main > navigation, that lists common tasks and leads to the correct > section of the site. We can also create similar 'audience > oriented' navigation to provide shortcuts for the press, > developers, end-users, etc. The thing to keep in mind is > that these additional wayfinding navbars do not compromise > the *organization* of the sites content, which is still > according to a pure topic oriented schema. > I completely agree with Michael's other statements in this message, but this paragraph bears repeating. If we don't have a clear structure behind the scenes, authoring and maintainability will be pretty much impossible. Why not simply express this structure in the primary navigation scheme? Then the form and the content will have an architectural integrity that makes the site easy to navigate and doesn't require a lot of explanation for everybody that will have to interface with the design of the site at some point in its lifetime. We can *always* put subjective/topical shortcuts from any page to any other page. It's even possible to create whole micro-environments that have content referenced from all over the site for groups like the press, new users, kde users, etc. I wonder if we're struggling with a main structure because we haven't fleshed out a full outline of content. Sooner or later, somebody's going to have to do this ... why not now? Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From digitect@mindspring.com Sat Dec 23 19:27:12 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A47082BDAD for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 19:27:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4ff.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.239]) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA08248 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 19:27:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001b01c06d40$436b1680$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: Subject: Color boards Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 19:27:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work I've finished putting together color boards with some of the theoretical possibilities from my revised color palette at http://www.mindspring.com/~digitect/gnome/index.htm#colorboards. As you can see, the possibilities are pretty expansive with just a limited number of hues. As I said before, at some point we're going to have to take a flying leap into design. Maybe there's one more step of general layout (in grayscale) before we start forging comps. The color/graphics discussion seems to have waned again, so maybe there aren't too many of you who care about the theoretical side of colors and graphics. But I'd appreciate whatever critique anybody would offer, be it either theoretical or gut level. Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From thomasmueller@mail.com Fri Dec 29 16:48:41 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from pop162-leg.mail.com (pop162-leg.mail.com [165.251.32.54]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74DD62BCB1 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 2000 16:48:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.com (pD9036119.dip.t-dialin.net [217.3.97.25]) by pop162-leg.mail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B93281C3E3 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 2000 16:48:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3A4D14D6.7030303@mail.com> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 22:48:54 +0000 From: Thomas Mueller User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux 2.4.0-test1 i686; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001207 X-Accept-Language: de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org, gnome-web-list@gnome.org, gnome-web-list@gnome.org, gnome-web-list@gnome.org, gnome-web-list@gnome.org, gnome-web-list@gnome.org, gnome-web-list@gnome.org, gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: OAsis username Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Hi, I would like to contribute to bluefish and was told on the website that I have to register with OAsis and send my username to this address. Well, here it is: "ThomasMueller" Happy New Year! Thomas Mueller From shax82@hotmail.com Sun Dec 3 02:07:58 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from hotmail.com (oe5.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.236.109]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5D562BD6C for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2000 02:07:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 2 Dec 2000 23:07:24 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [200.53.168.85] From: "Felipe Contreras" To: "Gnome Web List" Subject: KISS Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 01:08:42 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C05CC5.93ED77A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Dec 2000 07:07:24.0239 (UTC) FILETIME=[AFCB55F0:01C05CF7] Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C05CC5.93ED77A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi everybody, I was wondering if everyone was really so quiet, or you = deleted me from the list : ) Anyway if you are there just take a look to this site, it's simple, = stupid, small but it's cool to me, sure we are going to make something a = little bit bigger, take a look and tell if it's somewhat the "look" that = the new gnome site will have. Felipe Contreras ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C05CC5.93ED77A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi everybody, I was wondering if = everyone was=20 really so quiet, or you deleted me from the list : )
Anyway if you are there just take a = look to this=20 site, it's simple, stupid, small but it's cool to me, sure we are going = to make=20 something a little bit bigger, take a look and tell if it's somewhat the = "look"=20 that the new gnome site will have.
 
Felipe = Contreras
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C05CC5.93ED77A0-- From mcsoccer@colyer.org Sat Dec 2 23:53:05 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from eve.speakeasy.net (eve.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.17]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C77B2BB53 for ; Sat, 2 Dec 2000 23:53:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from darkfusion.colyer.org (dsl254-096-109-nyc1.dsl-isp.net [216.254.96.109]) by eve.speakeasy.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id eB34oCX20812; Sat, 2 Dec 2000 20:50:13 -0800 Message-Id: <200012030450.eB34oCX20812@eve.speakeasy.net> Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 23:57:51 EST From: Matt Colyer To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Reply-To: mcsoccer@colyer.org X-Mailer: Spruce 0.7.2 for X11 w/smtpio 0.7.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: (no subject) Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Hello, It would be really nice if we could get some sever space at xxxx.gnome.org for development purposes. Such as hosting a developer/abilities db as well as all the proposals, design comps, requirements, and ideas that have been stated thus far. I was going to do this on another server but I wasn't sure if that was what your goal was with the proposal later Matt From David.Bellot@loria.fr Tue Dec 5 13:55:44 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lorraine.loria.fr (lorraine.loria.fr [152.81.1.17]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DF262E1B0 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 13:55:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from loria.fr (IDENT:david@vallois.loria.fr [152.81.7.64]) by lorraine.loria.fr (8.9.3/8.9.3/8.9.3/JCG-DG) with ESMTP id TAA24532; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 19:55:41 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <3A2D3B32.C95DE6DC@loria.fr> Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 20:00:03 +0100 From: David Bellot Organization: LORIA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16-22 i686) X-Accept-Language: fr-FR, fr, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: joakim@helixcode.com, gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: French localization of web sites and softwares Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Hi, I'm very interested in the localization of Gnome Software and Web sites. Actually, I'm the leader of the French Mozilla group. We are working actually on the M18 release in french and have already localized all precedent versions (web page is http://www.loria.fr/~bellot/mozilla.html). I have a little team with 12 persons, and I hope they could help too in maintaining and localizing web sites in french and perhaps other GNOME softwares. Localization for softwares and web sites in KDE project is simply great (and the leader of French Team in KDE is a good friend of me ;-). So, I hope to see the same work done in GNOME which is actually my favorite desktop. Mozilla is almost ready and we could work on other projects. I hope you're interested in it, and perhaps we'll work together to make GNOME the ultimate workbench ! Best Regards, David Bellot bellot@loria.fr From aidin@djesi.ba Tue Dec 5 16:56:43 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from happy-one.ssbljk (OSF-remote13.soros.org.ba [195.222.51.187]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C4ED2E1A6 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 16:56:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (aidin@localhost) by happy-one.ssbljk (8.10.2/8.10.2/SuSE Linux 8.10.0-0.3) with ESMTP id eB3EMdZ01218; Sun, 3 Dec 2000 15:22:39 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: happy-one.ssbljk: aidin owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 15:22:38 +0100 (CET) From: Aidin Alihodzic X-Sender: aidin@happy-one.ssbljk To: Felipe Contreras Cc: Gnome Web List Subject: Re: KISS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work which site? ;) sorry but I can't to find URL in your post... Haven't closed my eyes for 48 hours.... |-) argh... there is no any URL :-) Aidin On Sun, 3 Dec 2000, Felipe Contreras wrote: > Hi everybody, I was wondering if everyone was really so quiet, or you deleted me from the list : ) > Anyway if you are there just take a look to this site, it's simple, stupid, small but it's cool to me, sure we are going to make something a little bit bigger, take a look and tell if it's somewhat the "look" that the new gnome site will have. > > Felipe Contreras > From al593181@mail.mty.itesm.mx Tue Dec 5 18:34:49 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from webmail.mty.itesm.mx (webmail.mty.itesm.mx [131.178.2.83]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B02B92C926 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 18:34:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from felipecg (200.53.168.44) by webmail.mty.itesm.mx (5.1.054) id 3A2724C800013283; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 17:32:59 -0600 Message-ID: <000e01c05f14$2dc8e8a0$b09fb283@felipecg> From: "Felipe Contreras" To: "Aidin Alihodzic" Cc: "Gnome Web List" References: Subject: Re: KISS Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 17:36:20 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Damn! that's strange, http://www.linuxfromscratch.org, let's test it.. yea it is. Don't worry, now I've finished my finals, my mind is here again. : ) In what was I thinking? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aidin Alihodzic" To: "Felipe Contreras" Cc: "Gnome Web List" Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 8:22 AM Subject: Re: KISS > > which site? ;) > sorry but I can't to find URL in your post... Haven't closed my eyes for > 48 hours.... |-) argh... there is no any URL :-) > > Aidin > > On Sun, 3 Dec 2000, Felipe Contreras wrote: > > > Hi everybody, I was wondering if everyone was really so quiet, or you deleted me from the list : ) > > Anyway if you are there just take a look to this site, it's simple, stupid, small but it's cool to me, sure we are going to make something a little bit bigger, take a look and tell if it's somewhat the "look" that the new gnome site will have. > > > > Felipe Contreras > > > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-web-list mailing list > gnome-web-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-web-list > From digitect@mindspring.com Tue Dec 5 21:09:28 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from barry.mail.mindspring.net (barry.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.25]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FEF72BA9A for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:09:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4ei.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.210]) by barry.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA02057; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:09:24 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <005601c05f29$b228f3a0$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: "Felipe Contreras" Cc: "Gnome Web List" References: <000e01c05f14$2dc8e8a0$b09fb283@felipecg> Subject: Re: KISS Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:10:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > Damn! that's strange, http://www.linuxfromscratch.org, let's test it.. yea Hmmm, looks more KDE than GNOME, I'd say. Has the typical bars and colored areas, you know? Personally, I've been on a floating look lately, grey on white with accents of blue. Check out http://www.mindspring.com/~digitect/gnome-print/new/index.htm and my 15 minute GNOME comp at http://www.mindspring.com/~digitect/gnome/index.htm. Graphically, I'd like to see something less tech, more curvy, minimal and three-dimensional (or at least layered), and a little primitive/earthy looking, perhaps with a tad of carved in stone or rune-ish look like at my first link. I'm tired of colored bars everywhere. My two cents. From Uraeus@linuxrising.org Wed Dec 6 12:54:27 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mta01.chello.no (mta01.chello.no [212.186.255.12]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7E532BBE4 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 12:54:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from [192.168.0.131] ([212.186.233.38]) by mta01.chello.no (InterMail vK.4.02.00.00 201-232-116 license 77df2db80a2bdce4d335ff4839618d42) with ESMTP id <20001206175517.CVQB5083.mta01@[212.186.233.38]>; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 18:55:17 +0100 Subject: Who am I and what do I want to do for GNOME web From: Christian Schaller To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Cc: Joakim Ziegler Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 06 Oct 2000 15:54:44 -0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20001206175517.CVQB5083.mta01@[212.186.233.38]> Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Hi, I thought I should do what many others on the list have done before me and make a short presentation of myself and say something about how I plan to contribute. I have been following/parttaking in the GNOME effort now for since the 0.30 release. I am no coder (at least not of a usable level) so I have usually focused on doing advocacy stuff. This has included doing a lot of interviews and articles on GNOME which I have mostly published on Linuxpower.org and also help with arranging some GNOME related events, like helping IDG to get Michaek Meeks and Alan Cox to Oslo to do talks etc. I have also indirectly helped with the Norwegian translation by loaning Kjartan money ;) What do I want to do as part of the web team? Well, I am not interested in the choice of technology or page design, that I leave to the other able people on this list. What I want to do is continue as I have as a newshunter and editor for Gnotices and I also want to help maintain content. Currently I try to keep the mailing list page (http://www.gnome.org/resources/mailing-lists.html) resonanbly up to date, but I wouldn't mind helping out maintaining other parts of the GNOME website which could need some love. So if there are some parts of the website in desperate need of some content maintenance, please let me know. Christian From shax82@hotmail.com Sat Dec 9 21:59:27 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from hotmail.com (oe68.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.236.207]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50D392BB41 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 21:59:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 18:59:26 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [200.53.168.230] From: "Felipe Contreras" To: "Gnome Web List" Subject: Gnome test page Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 20:29:27 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0621E.BA24F8E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Dec 2000 02:59:26.0345 (UTC) FILETIME=[34C51F90:01C06255] Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0621E.BA24F8E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0006_01C0621E.BA24F8E0" ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C0621E.BA24F8E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, since there is no action in the list I did a sample of the front = page of the site. Sure there need to be lots of icons in order to make = the page look good, you know, one for each section of the site. For the ones that like lynx, this page looks pretty good. And for the ones that likes IE, sorry right now I've seen the page = doesn't look right. What do you think? ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C0621E.BA24F8E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well, since there is no action in the = list I did a=20 sample of the front page of the site. Sure there need to be lots of = icons in=20 order to make the page look good, you know, one for each section of the=20 site.
For the ones that like lynx, this page = looks pretty=20 good.
And for the ones that likes IE, sorry = right now=20 I've seen the page doesn't look right.
What do you = think?
------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C0621E.BA24F8E0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0621E.BA24F8E0 Content-Type: text/html; name="gnome2.html" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="gnome2.html" Gnome Test Page
3D"Gnome_logo"
Quote of the day: = Gnome rulez
Menu
Applications
Development
News
Download
Information
International
hmmmmmm, editorial?
Partners
GTK
GIMP
Linux
Kernel
Helix Code
OSDN
Gnome NEWS:
Hi, the news are....
no one is writting on the = list :-P
And tha..., o yea, Metatags
Gnome TIP:
Download GNOME from Helix Code. It's an organization = dedicated to make the GNOMe installation easier, so, It's better that = you download GNOMe from there.
Miscelanius:
Download GNOME from Helix Code
Here there will be anything, no matter about = what.
What the hell is GNOME
[Applications][Development][News][Download]
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0621E.BA24F8E0-- From hansolo@rochester.rr.com Sun Dec 10 00:01:24 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mailout1-1.nyroc.rr.com (mailout1-1.nyroc.rr.com [24.92.226.146]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F23D02BAC2 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 00:01:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from 2z2j10b (d185fd10d.rochester.rr.com [24.95.209.13]) by mailout1-1.nyroc.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA21127; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 23:56:48 -0500 (EST) From: "Alex" To: "Felipe Contreras" , "Gnome Web List" Subject: RE: Gnome test page Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 23:54:35 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Seems ok there are a few spelling issues though "Miscellaneous" is the correct spelling not "Miscelanius" And is there a reason why its spelled "GNOMe" several places? -Alex -----Original Message----- From: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org [mailto:gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org]On Behalf Of Felipe Contreras Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2000 9:29 PM To: Gnome Web List Subject: Gnome test page Well, since there is no action in the list I did a sample of the front page of the site. Sure there need to be lots of icons in order to make the page look good, you know, one for each section of the site. For the ones that like lynx, this page looks pretty good. And for the ones that likes IE, sorry right now I've seen the page doesn't look right. What do you think? From michaeld@senet.com.au Sun Dec 10 05:51:40 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from pluto.senet.com.au (pluto.senet.com.au [203.56.239.150]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6FD62BC8D for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 05:51:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from senet.com.au (c20-p50.senet.com.au [203.152.254.51]) by pluto.senet.com.au (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBAApY598537 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 21:21:35 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from michaeld@senet.com.au) Message-ID: <3A33603A.361C41B3@senet.com.au> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 21:21:38 +1030 From: Michael Davies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16-22 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GNOME Web List Subject: So where to from here? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work What's happenning with gnome-web? Are we waiting for Joakim's design document? Are we going to get working over the holidays? :-) -- Michael Davies "Do what you think is interesting, do something that michaeld@senet.com.au you think is fun and worthwhile, because otherwise you won't do it well anyway." -- Brian Kernighan. From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sun Dec 10 05:58:07 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA9B82BF4F for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 05:58:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 1454BB-000147-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 11:58:05 +0100 Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 05:55:21 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: GNOME Web List Subject: Re: So where to from here? Message-ID: <20001210055521.R21071@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: GNOME Web List References: <3A33603A.361C41B3@senet.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A33603A.361C41B3@senet.com.au>; from michaeld@senet.com.au on Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 09:21:38PM +1030 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 09:21:38PM +1030, Michael Davies wrote: > What's happenning with gnome-web? Are we waiting for Joakim's design > document? Are we going to get working over the holidays? :-) I'm actually writing it now. I've been a little stressed out lately, but I'm hoping to have it all done on Sunday evening/night. Please bear with me. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From mlee@andrews.edu Sun Dec 10 10:28:02 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp-server.tampabay.rr.com (smtp-server.tampabay.rr.com [65.32.1.34]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01D922BAB8 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 10:28:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from andrews.edu (24161225hfc63.tampabay.rr.com [24.161.225.63]) by smtp-server.tampabay.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13451 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 10:28:01 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 10:29:31 -0500 From: Martin Lee X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gnome Web List Subject: GNOME comp Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Since it all that's going on is people making test pages and designs, I thought I might as well jump on the bandwagon. Here's one of my ideas so far... http://www.infovariant.com/mlee/g.gif Don't get all upset if it isn't what you want, It's only an idea. Things can change... From newton@retemail.es Sun Dec 10 12:34:03 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp4s.retemail.es (smtp4.iddeo.es [62.81.31.73]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B65ED2BAB8 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 12:33:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from retemail.es ([62.174.96.45]) by smtp4s.retemail.es (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20001210173354.GGBG116110.smtp4s.retemail.es@retemail.es> for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 18:33:54 +0100 Message-ID: <3A34151F.891D2AF5@retemail.es> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 18:43:27 -0500 From: Antonio =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mart=EDnez=20=C1lvarez?= Organization: Proyecto Ciencia Libre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [es] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.17 i586) X-Accept-Language: en, es MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: unsubscribe 417320 newton@retemail.es Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work -- Antonio Martínez Álvarez, From digitect@mindspring.com Sun Dec 10 13:57:42 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mclean.mail.mindspring.net (mclean.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.57]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B58132BAB8 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 13:57:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4a3.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.67]) by mclean.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA02838 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 13:57:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <002a01c062db$37f77ce0$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: "Gnome Web List" References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> Subject: Re: GNOME comp Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 13:58:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > Here's one of my ideas so far... > > http://www.infovariant.com/mlee/g.gif Hey, I like it! Comments: * The four quadrant idea has a nice effect visually and organizationally. I think it expresses the matrix we have in the GNOME community between users and developers. So it is also fitting that the News and Software sections are at the intersection of these two groups. Any thought to what happens after the front page to the unused half of the matrix? (i.e., the Developer box when your in a user section, or vice-versa.) * I like the color palette. Warm gray is identifiably GNOME and I think we should stick to it, although I may suggest replacing the red with a warm blue, not only because of my personal taste but because it plays better on most monitors. Also, I'm not sure where the hexagon patterning comes from. * I'd like to see desktop-type icons used as navigational tools for the different sections. This would help overcome localization problems, contribute/utilize our icon library, and generally improve the impression of the site. Several of these are already in place and work well, for example: calendar, screenshots and help question mark (FAQ). * I don't think the current site's or this one's use of phrases is very helpful. I find single word links (if they're well chosen) to be much more useful in finding my way around a site. Tasks should be distilled down to one word and one icon to be truly successful. (i.e., "See GNOME in action" is much less clear than "Screenshots" even though the later is basically slang.) Obviously we're still working through all this, so I'm not trying to criticize the comp, just voice my opinion since it raised the issue for me. I guess we still haven't decided the main sections of the site, but it would be good if the design could some how reflect them. The two-sided approach you present is a great start if we never end up getting it more refined than that. Steve Hall [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From David.Bellot@loria.fr Sun Dec 10 10:34:58 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lorraine.loria.fr (lorraine.loria.fr [152.81.1.17]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29AA62BAB8 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 10:34:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from loria.fr (IDENT:david@vallois.loria.fr [152.81.7.64]) by lorraine.loria.fr (8.9.3/8.9.3/8.9.3/JCG-DG) with ESMTP id QAA20131 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 16:34:56 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <3A33A375.F1251FA0@loria.fr> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 16:38:29 +0100 From: David Bellot Organization: LORIA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16-22 i686) X-Accept-Language: fr-FR, fr, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Gnome Web List Subject: Re: GNOME comp References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Martin Lee wrote: > Since it all that's going on is people making test pages and designs, I > thought I might as well jump on the bandwagon. > > Here's one of my ideas so far... > > http://www.infovariant.com/mlee/g.gif > > Don't get all upset if it isn't what you want, It's only an idea. Things > can change... I found your design nice, but I prefer the new desing. In fact, the organization of the web page is better than the actual one. Could you mix the both ? And could you add more colors to make the page more fun. Old GNOME colors are not happy ! Best Regards, DB From ryan@devnut.com Sun Dec 10 20:55:36 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from web.olypen.com (olypen.com [208.200.248.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA2842BAFB for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 20:55:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from devnu(ppp-214.olypen.com[208.238.207.218]) (1921 bytes) by web.olypen.com via sendmail with P:smtp/R:inet_hosts/T:smtp (sender: ) id for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 17:59:56 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2.0.109 1999-Oct-27 #15 built 1999-Dec-15) From: "Ryan Christensen" To: "Gnome Web List" Subject: RE: So where to from here? Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 17:52:05 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20001210055521.R21071@helixcode.com> X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Don't feel rushed.. we'll stay as long as it takes.. :) Martin.. on your design.. looks pretty nice. Digitect basically took the words out of my mouth on opionion on it.. so I don't think I'll say much else. Ryan > -----Original Message----- > From: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org > [mailto:gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org]On Behalf Of Joakim Ziegler > Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2000 3:55 AM > To: GNOME Web List > Subject: Re: So where to from here? > > > On Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 09:21:38PM +1030, Michael Davies wrote: > > > What's happenning with gnome-web? Are we waiting for Joakim's design > > document? Are we going to get working over the holidays? :-) > > I'm actually writing it now. I've been a little stressed out > lately, but I'm > hoping to have it all done on Sunday evening/night. Please bear with me. > > -- > Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - > Radagast@IRC > FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer > http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-web-list mailing list > gnome-web-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-web-list > From mark@websidestory.com Mon Dec 11 11:29:56 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.websidestory.com (mail1.websidestory.com [208.232.223.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D6672DBA3 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 11:29:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from websidestory.com (mark.websidestory.com [208.232.223.60]) by mail1.websidestory.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id eBBGTsq03452 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 08:29:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A35023E.D150AC99@websidestory.com> Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 08:35:10 -0800 From: Mark Koopman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Gnome Web List Subject: Re: GNOME comp References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> <002a01c062db$37f77ce0$0201a8c0@pc001> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > > Here's one of my ideas so far... > > > > http://www.infovariant.com/mlee/g.gif > This is a beauty! #!/usr/local/bin/perl # Mark Koopman - mark@websidestory.com # Software Engineer # # WebSideStory, Inc # # 10182 Telesis Court # San Diego CA 92121 # 858.546.1182.##.318 # 858.546.0480.fax eval(lc(join('', map ({chr}(q( 49877273766940 80827378843973 32767986693280 69827639463932 39883673434341 ))=~/../g)))); From hedgehog@strogino.ru Mon Dec 11 15:58:30 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from hellfire.strogino.ru (hellfire.strogino.ru [212.45.8.27]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8790E2BB47 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 15:58:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from hedgehog (hedgehog.strogino.bhg.ru [192.168.35.236]) by hellfire.strogino.ru (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA24425 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 23:55:37 +0300 Message-ID: <002601c063b4$4f998c60$ec23a8c0@strogino.bhg.ru> From: "Serguey Kolesov" To: "GNOME-web-list" References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> Subject: Re: GNOME comp Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 23:52:41 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Hello. > Here's one of my ideas so far... > > http://www.infovariant.com/mlee/g.gif Well, I like it. It is not perfect but it is something to start with. And I have a few comments: - Headings "Start with GNOME" and "Develop with GNOME" can be made a bit more readable (a darker colour, maybe?) - The main font (Times or what is it?) is really ugly... what about Arial or something similar? -- Serguey From bill@noreboots.com Mon Dec 11 20:37:50 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from shine.micron.net (shine.micron.net [204.229.122.198]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 894A02D3DF for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:37:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from 10.224.0.198 ([10.224.0.198]) by shine.micron.net (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with SMTP id G5FLV000.A1A for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 18:37:48 -0700 Received: from noreboots.com (ucntcme231.dsl.micron.net [206.207.111.231]) by with SMTP (MailShield v1.5); Mon, 11 Dec 2000 18:37:47 -0700 Message-ID: <3A35814A.A2269CF0@noreboots.com> Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 18:37:14 -0700 From: Bill Anderson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16-22smp i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> <002601c063b4$4f998c60$ec23a8c0@strogino.bhg.ru> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SMTP-HELO: noreboots.com X-SMTP-MAIL-FROM: bill@noreboots.com X-SMTP-PEER-INFO: ucntcme231.dsl.micron.net [206.207.111.231] Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Serguey Kolesov wrote: > > Hello. > > > Here's one of my ideas so far... > > > > http://www.infovariant.com/mlee/g.gif > > Well, I like it. It is not perfect but it is something to start with. And I > have a few comments: > > - Headings "Start with GNOME" and "Develop with GNOME" can be made a bit > more readable (a darker colour, maybe?) Agreed, a darker color _would_ be nice. > > - The main font (Times or what is it?) is really ugly... what about Arial or > something similar? How many Linux users have that font without going through the trouble of adding it? I have it, but then i added a whole lot of TTFs to my system. Something to keep in mind is fon-availability on a default install of a distribution. AFAIK, no distributions currently include truetype fonts. Bill From mark@websidestory.com Mon Dec 11 20:50:08 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.websidestory.com (mail1.websidestory.com [208.232.223.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22BE12D2FD for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:50:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from websidestory.com (mark.websidestory.com [208.232.223.60]) by mail1.websidestory.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id eBC1o7q16492 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 17:50:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A35858E.3339617D@websidestory.com> Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 17:55:26 -0800 From: Mark Koopman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> <002601c063b4$4f998c60$ec23a8c0@strogino.bhg.ru> <3A35814A.A2269CF0@noreboots.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Bill Anderson wrote: > > Serguey Kolesov wrote: > > > > Hello. > > > > > Here's one of my ideas so far... > > > > > > http://www.infovariant.com/mlee/g.gif > > > > Well, I like it. It is not perfect but it is something to start with. And I > > have a few comments: > > > > - Headings "Start with GNOME" and "Develop with GNOME" can be made a bit > > more readable (a darker colour, maybe?) > > Agreed, a darker color _would_ be nice. > > > > > - The main font (Times or what is it?) is really ugly... what about Arial or > > something similar? > > How many Linux users have that font without going through the trouble of > adding it? I have it, but then i added a whole lot of TTFs to my system. > > Something to keep in mind is fon-availability on a default install of a > distribution. AFAIK, no distributions currently include truetype fonts. > > Bill > > I installed an RH6.2 distrib about 6 months that has Arial. Arials been around along time, i think we can expect users have it. i'm sure someone can prove me wrong though :) -- #!/usr/local/bin/perl # Mark Koopman - mark@websidestory.com # Software Engineer # # WebSideStory, Inc # # 10182 Telesis Court # San Diego CA 92121 # 858.546.1182.##.318 # 858.546.0480.fax eval(lc(join('', map ({chr}(q( 49877273766940 80827378843973 32767986693280 69827639463932 39883673434341 ))=~/../g)))); From al593181@mail.mty.itesm.mx Mon Dec 11 21:16:48 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from webmail.mty.itesm.mx (webmail.mty.itesm.mx [131.178.2.83]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4CDA2BAE9 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 21:16:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from felipecg (200.53.168.198) by webmail.mty.itesm.mx (5.1.054) id 3A2724C800027BD5; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:15:19 -0600 Message-ID: <002d01c063e1$d7082300$442cfea9@felipecg> From: "Felipe Contreras" To: "Gnome Web List" , "Mark Koopman" References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> <002601c063b4$4f998c60$ec23a8c0@strogino.bhg.ru> <3A35814A.A2269CF0@noreboots.com> <3A35858E.3339617D@websidestory.com> Subject: Re: GNOME comp Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:18:35 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Koopman" Cc: "GNOME-web-list" Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 7:55 PM Subject: Re: GNOME comp > Bill Anderson wrote: > > > > Serguey Kolesov wrote: > > > > > > Hello. > > > > > > > Here's one of my ideas so far... > > > > > > > > http://www.infovariant.com/mlee/g.gif > > > > > > Well, I like it. It is not perfect but it is something to start with. And I > > > have a few comments: > > > > > > - Headings "Start with GNOME" and "Develop with GNOME" can be made a bit > > > more readable (a darker colour, maybe?) > > > > Agreed, a darker color _would_ be nice. I Agree. > > > > > > > > - The main font (Times or what is it?) is really ugly... what about Arial or > > > something similar? > > > > How many Linux users have that font without going through the trouble of > > adding it? I have it, but then i added a whole lot of TTFs to my system. > > > > Something to keep in mind is fon-availability on a default install of a > > distribution. AFAIK, no distributions currently include truetype fonts. > > > > Bill > > > > > > I installed an RH6.2 distrib about 6 months that has Arial. Arials been > around > along time, i think we can expect users have it. > i'm sure someone can prove me wrong though :) My distro has the Arial font too, but anyway, the Times is not so bad, if you think about standards. So correct me if I'm wrong but I think you can say: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from gio.ingor.upm.es (glo.gio.ingor.upm.es [138.100.17.11]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A87BD2D2E0 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 07:06:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from gio.ingor.upm.es ([138.100.21.98]) by gio.ingor.upm.es (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA08708; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:06:00 +0100 Message-ID: <3A36142A.7020304@gio.ingor.upm.es> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:03:54 +0100 From: "Guille (bisho)" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-6.1.1 i686; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001119 X-Accept-Language: es-es, es, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Koopman Cc: GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> <002601c063b4$4f998c60$ec23a8c0@strogino.bhg.ru> <3A35814A.A2269CF0@noreboots.com> <3A35858E.3339617D@websidestory.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > I installed an RH6.2 distrib about 6 months that has Arial. Arials been > around > along time, i think we can expect users have it. > i'm sure someone can prove me wrong though :) The equivalent of Arial in Unix and Mac machines would be Helvetica. So I would propose to use -- \|||||||/ Guillermo Pérez Pérez < o o > - bisho@onirica.com \ L / - bisho@eurielec.etsit.upm.es -oOOo-------oOOo- From digitect@mindspring.com Tue Dec 12 09:02:14 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from barry.mail.mindspring.net (barry.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.25]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B836D2D286 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:02:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4ci.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.146]) by barry.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA17916 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:02:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001d01c06444$46104900$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: "GNOME-web-list" References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> <002601c063b4$4f998c60$ec23a8c0@strogino.bhg.ru> <3A35814A.A2269CF0@noreboots.com> <3A35858E.3339617D@websidestory.com> <3A36142A.7020304@gio.ingor.upm.es> Subject: Re: GNOME comp Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:03:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > The equivalent of Arial in Unix and Mac machines would be Helvetica. > > So I would propose to use * Am I incorrect in thinking that Arial is a proprietary font, perhaps owned by Microsoft? Unless every major distribution distributes it, I'm completely against using Arial. Helvetica has been on my system since RH 5.1, so I'd be in favor of making that the main font if we're going sans serif. But, frankly, serif fonts are easier to read, although I would agree that they look lower tech. I could easily stand having Times be the default, too. * I think we'd be better off sticking with picking one (serif v. non-serif) and having any particular glyphs come from within that chosen family. Let's not mix and match, it creates the potential of too much range in style. (i.e., "Helvetica", "Times", "Big ol' Outline Font", "Courier") * The font tag was deprecated from the W3C HTML 4.01 standard a few years ago. If we're not going to depend on linked style sheets, the correct way to call out a font (all text being contained within

tags, of course): Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From webmaven@lvcm.com Tue Dec 12 09:35:42 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams3.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.77]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 368002BB92 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:35:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.192.168]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Tue, 12 Dec 2000 06:34:29 -0800 Message-ID: <3A365581.775D5846@lvcm.com> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 08:42:41 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Guille (bisho)" Cc: Mark Koopman , GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> <002601c063b4$4f998c60$ec23a8c0@strogino.bhg.ru> <3A35814A.A2269CF0@noreboots.com> <3A35858E.3339617D@websidestory.com> <3A36142A.7020304@gio.ingor.upm.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work "Guille (bisho)" wrote: > > > I installed an RH6.2 distrib about 6 months that has Arial. Arials been > > around > > along time, i think we can expect users have it. > > i'm sure someone can prove me wrong though :) > > The equivalent of Arial in Unix and Mac machines would be Helvetica. > > So I would propose to use I usually use Michael Bernstein. From fboliv@student.dei.uc.pt Tue Dec 12 10:27:45 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from student.dei.uc.pt (student.dei.uc.pt [193.137.203.231]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 204152CA8C for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:27:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (fboliv@localhost) by student.dei.uc.pt (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBCFLwf15455; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:21:58 GMT Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:21:58 +0000 (WET) From: "Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n)" To: Michael Bernstein Cc: "Guille (bisho)" , Mark Koopman , GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp In-Reply-To: <3A365581.775D5846@lvcm.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Even though some new systems do have True Type fonts installed by default (including Arial), most of the systems do NOT have them, and do use helvetica as the standard font. Therefore i do agree with something like: or possibly (and thinking about the windows users visiting gnome.org (which will be a lot, as they are already)), including verdana, with In my oppinion (and also considering fonts), i think 8pt fonts are a good size for such a web page because they are not too small, but also not big at all, and do fit any resolution nicely from 640x480 to 1900... I'd like to know what you guys think about this size. (Note that this is the equivalent to font size 1) > > > I installed an RH6.2 distrib about 6 months that has Arial. Arials been > > > around > > > along time, i think we can expect users have it. > > > i'm sure someone can prove me wrong though :) > > > > The equivalent of Arial in Unix and Mac machines would be Helvetica. > > So I would propose to use ======================================== Frederico Oliveira - aka kript0n Email: kript0n@boxnetwork.net kript0n@void.box.sk fboliv@student.dei.uc.pt ======================================== From digitect@mindspring.com Tue Dec 12 10:36:04 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from barry.mail.mindspring.net (barry.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.25]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBC2D2CA8C for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:36:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from smui05.slb.mindspring.net (smui05.slb.mindspring.net [199.174.114.91]) by barry.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA27500 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:36:04 -0500 (EST) From: digitect@mindspring.com Received: by smui05.slb.mindspring.net id KAA0000005425; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:36:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:36:04 -0500 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Re: GNOME comp Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: 208.150.104.72 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > I usually use Yikes! Double-dog-ditto my previous comments on Arial for Verdana (proprietary (perhaps even MS), non-standard to most Linux distributions). Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From webmaven@lvcm.com Tue Dec 12 10:40:06 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams3.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.77]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A20B2CA8C for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:40:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.192.168]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Tue, 12 Dec 2000 07:38:29 -0800 Message-ID: <3A366482.47D836D2@lvcm.com> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:46:42 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n)" Cc: "Guille (bisho)" , Mark Koopman , GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work "Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n)" wrote: > > Even though some new systems do have True Type fonts installed by default > (including Arial), most of the systems do NOT have them, and do use > helvetica as the standard font. Therefore i do agree with something like: > > > > or possibly (and thinking about the windows users visiting gnome.org > (which will be a lot, as they are already)), including verdana, with > > Don't forget to add a default type *style* in case NONE of these fonts are available: Michael Bernstein. From jdub@aphid.net Tue Dec 12 10:44:40 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail003.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail003.syd.optusnet.com.au [203.2.75.251]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66C652CA8C for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:44:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (sdcax52-213.dialup.optusnet.com.au [198.142.206.213]) by mail003.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBCFhCw08603 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 02:43:24 +1100 Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 293DC3CA8; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 02:42:50 +1100 (EST) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 02:42:49 +1100 From: Jeff Waugh To: GNOME-web-list Subject: Correct specification of fonts Message-ID: <20001213024249.D3391@aphid.net> Mail-Followup-To: Jeff Waugh , GNOME-web-list References: <3A365581.775D5846@lvcm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from fboliv@student.dei.uc.pt on Tue, Dec 12, 2000 at 03:21:58PM +0000 X-Message: Leenooks, Lienucks, Leenoos, Lienus, Let's call the whole thing off. X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.0-test11 i686 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > a) Best not to specify specific fonts without defining a fallback style. Add "sans-serif" to that list. I must interject though - who cares about fonts at this stage? Shouldn't we be discussing structure? > In my oppinion (and also considering fonts), i think 8pt fonts are a good > size for such a web page because they are not too small, but also not big > at all, and do fit any resolution nicely from 640x480 to 1900... I'd like > to know what you guys think about this size. (Note that this is the > equivalent to font size 1) b) Font sizes should always be specified in web-relative notation, or if you're pushing it, pixels (but very rarely, and only for special purposes). Specifying by point is a big no-no. - Jeff (patiently awaiting Radagast's white paper to pore over) -- jdub@aphid.net --------------------------------- http://linux.conf.au/ -- "Life is short. Forgive quickly. Kiss slowly." - Robert Doisneau From dennisle@swbell.net Tue Dec 12 10:58:59 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.29]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B693F2DC91 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:58:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from swbell.net ([208.191.12.195]) by mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0G5G008S3PMNTA@mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net> for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:56:47 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:56:29 -0700 From: Dennis Lee Subject: Re: GNOME comp To: "Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n)" Cc: Michael Bernstein , "Guille (bisho)" , Mark Koopman , GNOME-web-list Message-id: <3A3658BD.8090608@swbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001018 X-Accept-Language: en References: Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n) wrote: > Even though some new systems do have True Type fonts > <...> > In my oppinion (and also considering fonts), i think 8pt fonts are a good > size for such a web page because they are not too small, but also not big > at all, and do fit any resolution nicely from 640x480 to 1900... I'd like > to know what you guys think about this size. (Note that this is the > equivalent to font size 1) _Please_ do not spec some tiny size font (like 8 point)! Fonts to small to read are one of the first complaints I hear about surfing with Linux. Sure spec-ing a font size can make page lay out pleasing to look at. But it is more importaint that our customers are able to read the page. Leave font size out of the css or the pages markup; all font size will do is cause grief, so many system display font sizes differently that font size is a bad can of rotten worms we can do with out. Dennis > >>>> I installed an RH6.2 distrib about 6 months that has Arial. Arials been >>>> around >>>> along time, i think we can expect users have it. >>>> i'm sure someone can prove me wrong though :) >>> >>> The equivalent of Arial in Unix and Mac machines would be Helvetica. >>> So I would propose to use >> From fboliv@student.dei.uc.pt Tue Dec 12 11:17:35 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from student.dei.uc.pt (student.dei.uc.pt [193.137.203.231]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CA4F2DCF9 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:17:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (fboliv@localhost) by student.dei.uc.pt (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBCG9ZA00896; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:09:35 GMT Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:09:35 +0000 (WET) From: "Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n)" To: Michael Bernstein Cc: "Guille (bisho)" , Mark Koopman , GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp In-Reply-To: <3A366482.47D836D2@lvcm.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Michael Bernstein wrote: > "Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n)" wrote: > > > > Even though some new systems do have True Type fonts installed by default > > (including Arial), most of the systems do NOT have them, and do use > > helvetica as the standard font. Therefore i do agree with something like: > > > > > > > > or possibly (and thinking about the windows users visiting gnome.org > > (which will be a lot, as they are already)), including verdana, with > > > > > > Don't forget to add a default type *style* in case NONE of > these fonts are available: > > > > Michael Bernstein. > True, thanks for the correction. How do you guys feel about 8pt or size 1 fonts? I'd like to hear about that. ======================================== Frederico Oliveira - aka kript0n Email: kript0n@boxnetwork.net kript0n@mail.box.sk fboliv@student.dei.uc.pt irc.box.sk:6667 -> #neworder ========================================= From webmaven@lvcm.com Tue Dec 12 11:21:11 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams3.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.77]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F23B2DF32 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:21:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.192.168]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Tue, 12 Dec 2000 08:22:02 -0800 Message-ID: <3A366EB7.116C8A5@lvcm.com> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:30:15 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: digitect@mindspring.com Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME comp References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work digitect@mindspring.com wrote: > > > I usually use > > Yikes! Double-dog-ditto my previous comments on Arial for Verdana (proprietary (perhaps even MS), non-standard to most Linux distributions). While it is true that Verdana is an MS product, it is free (though not Free). It has the advantage of being one of the few high-quality typefaces specifically designed for screen resolutions (which increases legibility). Specifying it in this way IN NO WAY introduces a dependency on the typeface. It will simply be used preferentially if available. Anyone who has gone to the trouble of adding it to THEIR SYSTEM will appreciate the attention to detail, and those who have not will not have their experience degraded in any way. I would however draw the line at stating on the site "This site best viewed using MS Verdana" ;-) That would be wrong :-) Michael Bernstein. P.S. The Gnome Foundation could commission a professional type designer (probably for about 30k or so) to design Free high-quality Serif and Sans-Serif typefaces, but this isn't something that will happen soon. I think Mathew Carter (Verdana's designer) spent a year designing Verdana for Microsoft. As a candidate designer, Zusana Licko comes to mind: http://www.emigre.com/bios/zlicko.html From webmaven@lvcm.com Tue Dec 12 11:29:01 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams1.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.75]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E9922DF32 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:29:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.192.168]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Tue, 12 Dec 2000 08:32:28 -0800 Message-ID: <3A367077.59D0646E@lvcm.com> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:37:43 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeff Waugh Cc: GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: Correct specification of fonts References: <3A365581.775D5846@lvcm.com> <20001213024249.D3391@aphid.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Jeff Waugh wrote: > > I must interject though - who cares about fonts at this stage? Shouldn't we > be discussing structure? I would, but my position (that structure should be primarily subject-oriented) has proved unpopular, and it seems that the site structure is going to be task-oriented instead. So I don't have a lot to contribute to that discussion. Michael Bernstein. From fboliv@student.dei.uc.pt Tue Dec 12 11:30:38 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from student.dei.uc.pt (student.dei.uc.pt [193.137.203.231]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A45972D43B for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:30:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (fboliv@localhost) by student.dei.uc.pt (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBCGEgC02403; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:14:42 GMT Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:14:42 +0000 (WET) From: "Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n)" To: Dennis Lee Cc: Michael Bernstein , "Guille (bisho)" , Mark Koopman , GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp In-Reply-To: <3A3658BD.8090608@swbell.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Dennis Lee wrote: > _Please_ do not spec some tiny size font (like 8 point)! > Fonts to small to read are one of the first complaints I hear about > surfing with Linux. As a matter of fact, 8 pt is not small (i have designed a page's CSS (check http://geek.box.sk) with 8pt and it fits both *nix browsers (read netscape) and windows browsers (read netscape [again] and ie). However i don't think discussing font size is the most important thing to do at the moment. We should in fact be discussing things like the layout other than smaller details such as this one. Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n) Box Network Administration (www.boxnetwork.net) From digitect@mindspring.com Tue Dec 12 11:49:36 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53E302DCD0 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:49:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from smui02.slb.mindspring.net (smui02.slb.mindspring.net [199.174.114.25]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA05561 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:49:35 -0500 (EST) From: digitect@mindspring.com Received: by smui02.slb.mindspring.net id LAA0000030936; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:49:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:49:35 -0500 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Re: Correct specification of fonts Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: 208.150.104.72 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > Michael Bernstein wrote: > > digitect@mindspring.com wrote: > > > > > I usually use > sans-serif"> > > > > Yikes! Double-dog-ditto my previous comments on Arial > for Verdana (proprietary (perhaps even MS), non-standard > to most Linux distributions). > > While it is true that Verdana is an MS product, it is free > (though not Free). It has the advantage of being one of the > few high-quality typefaces specifically designed for screen > resolutions (which increases legibility). Specifying it in > this way IN NO WAY introduces a dependency on the typeface. > It will simply be used preferentially if available. Anyone > who has gone to the trouble of adding it to THEIR SYSTEM > will appreciate the attention to detail, and those who have > not will not have their experience degraded in any way. > > I would however draw the line at stating on the site "This > site best viewed using MS Verdana" ;-) That would be wrong > :-) While I appreciate the so-called "browserness" of Verdana, I find it a very wide font, which means that it spools paragraphs of text farther down the page and make navigation titles return into two lines. Again, I am very opposed to using non-standard (not to mention proprietary fonts and would hope we could use the serif or sans-serif font family instead. If we MUST use specific glyphs, I prefer: 1. Times 2. Helvetica 3. Arial 4. Tahoma (thinner than Verdana) Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From digitect@mindspring.com Tue Dec 12 11:50:29 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mclean.mail.mindspring.net (mclean.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.57]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DD992CE2D for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:50:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from smui02.slb.mindspring.net (smui02.slb.mindspring.net [199.174.114.25]) by mclean.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA13568 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:50:26 -0500 (EST) From: digitect@mindspring.com Received: by smui02.slb.mindspring.net id LAA0000032505; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:50:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:50:25 -0500 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Correct specification of fonts Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: 208.150.104.72 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > Michael Bernstein wrote: > > Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > > I must interject though - who cares about fonts at this stage? Shouldn't we > > be discussing structure? > > I would, but my position (that structure should be primarily > subject-oriented) has proved unpopular, and it seems that > the site structure is going to be task-oriented instead. So > I don't have a lot to contribute to that discussion. > > Michael Bernstein. > Michael, I completely agree with you on this (which explains my recent font discussion contributions, too) but I haven't given up on using a subjective structure yet. (I always wonder if list decisions are made by consensus or verbosity.) From mlee@andrews.edu Tue Dec 12 11:57:45 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from andrews.edu (roonwit.cs.andrews.edu [143.207.1.21]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FB052CE2D for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:57:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from orion.cc.andrews.edu (orion.cc.andrews.edu [143.207.5.12]) by roonwit.cs.andrews.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA24129; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:57:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by orion.cc.andrews.edu (8.8.8+Sun) id LAA12435; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:57:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:57:31 -0500 (EST) From: Martin Lee To: Jeff Waugh Cc: GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: Correct specification of fonts In-Reply-To: <20001213024249.D3391@aphid.net> Message-ID: <%yOlN64AKE@orion.cc.andrews.edu> X-Mailer: Fir 4.0beta (SunOS) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > I must interject though - who cares about fonts at this stage? Shouldn't we > be discussing structure? Very true. Although there needs to be some thought as to the font, I think that the site should be designed first and a font chosen because it works well with the design and is part of the design. If sans-serif goes with the design, then use sans-serif. Font selection should be an implementation of the design. > > > In my oppinion (and also considering fonts), i think 8pt fonts are a good > > size for such a web page because they are not too small, but also not big > > at all, and do fit any resolution nicely from 640x480 to 1900... I'd like > > to know what you guys think about this size. (Note that this is the > > equivalent to font size 1) I preffer to use px sizes when using font styles, and find that some smaller font sizes will view fine (although small) in IE, but are close to unreadable in Netscape. I find that 10px - 12px is usually a good size - depending on what the content is. I think however, we should be focusing on brainstorming ideas for navagation, navagation items, page elements, layout, and the flow of the site. When I made up the comp (http://www.infovariant.com/mlee/g.gif) I wasn't sure what links we would need and what important information needs to be profiled on the from page. Design will be much easier once this is known. The layout I have separates the navagation into two separate types - beginner (a person new to GNOME, member of the press, windows users etc...) and expert (developer, gnome fanatic, regular users that are familiar with linux). This navigation is quite prominent on the home page, but once the user goes to a subpage, the navigation and logo will shrink to the top and side to minimize page real-estate used, giving more focus on the content. Anyway, that's my thought for the morning. From tslukka@alpha.hut.fi Tue Dec 12 13:38:08 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from relay1-us.simplemente.net (relay1.us.simplemente.net [216.167.121.82]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF8A42BB92 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:38:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from tiku.hut.fi (tiku.hut.fi [130.233.228.86]) by relay1-us.simplemente.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE97ED782A for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:38:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from alpha.hut.fi (tslukka@alpha.hut.fi [130.233.224.50]) by tiku.hut.fi (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA28669 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 20:37:56 +0200 (EET) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 20:37:56 +0200 (EET) From: Tuomo Lukka To: GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n) wrote: > On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Dennis Lee wrote: > > > _Please_ do not spec some tiny size font (like 8 point)! > > Fonts to small to read are one of the first complaints I hear about > > surfing with Linux. > > As a matter of fact, 8 pt is not small (i have designed a page's CSS > (check http://geek.box.sk) with 8pt and it fits both *nix browsers (read > netscape) and windows browsers (read netscape [again] and ie). Are you trying to say that "http://geek.box.sk/" is not using small font ?? I have RedHat 6.1 + Netscape 4.7x running on 1024 * 768 display, and this is how I see your web-page: http://titanic.tky.hut.fi/images/font_shot.jpg Please, take a look and remenber that even though it is possible that my system is "corrupt", I am using all settings a they were left after installing the whole thingie and probably there are also others who see this page like me.. So, please don't use small fonts, they are impossible to read some of us. Tuomo Lukka PS: If someone can tell why the hell my browser shows the page like that, please tell me! -------------------------------------------------------------------- In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded. Big Bang Theory. ********** *** The Web : http://titanic.tky.hut.fi/ ********** *** (http://www.iki.fi/luigi/) *** *** E-Mail : Luigi@iki.fi [Use this] *** *** *** *** Tel. : 09-4683042 [Home] *** ******** : 040-5389759 [Mobile] *** * ******** : 010-5322196 [Work] -------------------------------------------------------------------- From john@backspace.com Tue Dec 12 14:15:59 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1EDC2DDE2 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:15:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from [63.27.34.20] (1Cust20.tnt8.nyc3.da.uu.net [63.27.34.20]) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA16114 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:15:53 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: john@mail.backspace.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:28:54 -0500 To: GNOME-web-list From: John Emerson Subject: another GNOME comp Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work I like Martin's 4 quadrant idea, but I'm not sure how it would extend to other sections of the site. Also, it does seem a bit premature to be putting together comps without a finalized structure. Any news on that document, Joakim? Is there anything we can do to help? In any case, here's a comp of my own: http://backspace.com/gnome1.gif (I couldn't find the proper font for the GNOME title, but you get the general idea.) - John From wkurdzio@cslab.vt.edu Tue Dec 12 14:33:21 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from labrador.cslab.vt.edu (labrador.cslab.vt.edu [198.82.184.22]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FB152BB92 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:33:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from lemon.cslab.vt.edu (lemon.cslab.vt.edu [198.82.184.69]) by labrador.cslab.vt.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA21657 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:32:46 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wkurdzio@cslab.vt.edu) Received: from localhost (wkurdzio@localhost) by lemon.cslab.vt.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA13790 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:30:37 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wkurdzio@lemon.cslab.vt.edu) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:30:37 -0500 (EST) From: Wes Kurdziolek To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Small font sizes while browsing in Linux Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Netscape typically renders fonts two points smaller than specified, so 10pt is a good selection -- not too big in IE and Konquerer and not too small in Netscape. FYI: If you think your fonts are too small in X, make sure your 100dpi font directories are listed before your 75dpi font directories in your XF86Config file. -- Wes Kurdziolek Virginia Tech Computer Science Lab UNIX System Administrator E-mail: wkurdzio@cslab.vt.edu Voice: +1 (540) 231-3457 Office: 116A McBryde From dennisle@swbell.net Tue Dec 12 14:44:43 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.29]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DED12E0B7 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:44:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from swbell.net ([208.191.12.195]) by mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0G5G00KYCZCP4I@mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net> for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:26:50 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:26:33 -0700 From: Dennis Lee Subject: Re: GNOME comp To: Tuomo Lukka Cc: GNOME-web-list Message-id: <3A3689F9.9090105@swbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001018 X-Accept-Language: en References: Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Tuomo Lukka wrote: > On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n) wrote: > > >> On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Dennis Lee wrote: >> >> >>> _Please_ do not spec some tiny size font (like 8 point)! >>> Fonts to small to read are one of the first complaints I hear about >>> surfing with Linux. >> >> As a matter of fact, 8 pt is not small (i have designed a page's CSS >> (check http://geek.box.sk) with 8pt and it fits both *nix browsers (read >> netscape) and windows browsers (read netscape [again] and ie). > > > Are you trying to say that "http://geek.box.sk/" is not using small font ?? > I have RedHat 6.1 + Netscape 4.7x running on 1024 * 768 display, and this > is how I see your web-page: http://titanic.tky.hut.fi/images/font_shot.jpg > > Please, take a look and remenber that even though it is possible that my > system is "corrupt", I am using all settings a they were left after > installing the whole thingie and probably there are also others who see > this page like me.. So, please don't use small fonts, they are impossible > to read some of us. > Tuomo Lukka > > PS: If someone can tell why the hell my browser shows the page like that, > please tell me! There is nothing wrong with your system. Thats just the best Netscape 4.7 can display such a small font; at that display resultion; mine looks the same and I have true type fonts installed. There are some things you could to do in order to read the page, but why, it is the web site thats broken in my book. This is the kind of thing we can avoid by not setting a font size. Dennis From john@backspace.com Wed Dec 13 00:11:01 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtppop3pub.verizon.net (smtppop3pub.gte.net [206.46.170.22]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94E8A2D1D3 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 00:11:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net (smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.39.156]) by smtppop3pub.verizon.net with ESMTP for ; id XAA76968712 Tue, 12 Dec 2000 23:06:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from [151.202.83.231] (adsl-151-202-83-231.nyc.adsl.bellatlantic.net [151.202.83.231]) by smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA28372 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 00:10:28 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: john@mail.backspace.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 00:23:33 -0500 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org From: John Emerson Subject: another GNOME comp, 2 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work This one with a little more color: http://backspace.com/gnome2.gif - John From digitect@mindspring.com Wed Dec 13 00:18:24 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from hall.mail.mindspring.net (hall.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.60]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C599F2D1D3 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 00:18:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4d1.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.161]) by hall.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA02867; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 00:18:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <007601c064c4$40ccb8e0$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: , "John Emerson" References: Subject: Re: another GNOME comp, 2 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 00:19:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > This one with a little more color: > http://backspace.com/gnome2.gif I like your previous one better. How about the GNOME warm gray instead of the yellow? From robin@noname4us.com Wed Dec 13 00:51:41 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from first.noname4us.com (first.noname4us.com [212.247.87.60]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4088F2D1D3 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 00:51:41 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 4552 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2000 05:52:00 -0000 Received: from robin.int.noname4us.com (HELO sarah.) (192.168.128.12) by first.noname4us.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 2000 05:52:00 -0000 From: Robin Ericsson Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 05:51:31 GMT Message-ID: <20001213.5513100@sarah.> Subject: Re: another GNOME comp, 2 To: John Emerson Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mozilla/3.0 (compatible; StarOffice/5.2;Linux) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On 12/13/00, 6:23:33 AM, John Emerson wrote regardi= ng=20 another GNOME comp, 2: > This one with a little more color: > http://backspace.com/gnome2.gif I prefer this layout before the other one, but colors and stuff is to = early to decide I think...=20 R. From mandreiana@rdsnet.ro Wed Dec 13 03:02:40 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail.rdsnet.ro (mail.rdsnet.ro [193.231.236.16]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 18C1D2DF4D for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 03:02:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 18700 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2000 08:04:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO rdsnet.ro) (212.93.133.179) by mail.rdsnet.ro with SMTP; 13 Dec 2000 08:04:14 -0000 Message-ID: <3A372D1B.8F0C12C7@rdsnet.ro> Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 10:02:35 +0200 From: Marius Andreiana Organization: Web Development Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: Correct specification of fonts References: <3A365581.775D5846@lvcm.com> <20001213024249.D3391@aphid.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > > > Aren't cascading stylesheets used for fonts, colors, etc, stored in a separate file ? Shouldn't use tag at all, only CSS. -- Marius Andreiana From fboliv@student.dei.uc.pt Wed Dec 13 04:53:04 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from student.dei.uc.pt (student.dei.uc.pt [193.137.203.231]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5D612CE26 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 04:52:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (fboliv@localhost) by student.dei.uc.pt (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBD9oTl09546; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:50:29 GMT Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:50:28 +0000 (WET) From: "Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n)" To: Dennis Lee Cc: Tuomo Lukka , GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp In-Reply-To: <3A3689F9.9090105@swbell.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > PS: If someone can tell why the hell my browser shows the page like that, > > please tell me! > > There is nothing wrong with your system. Thats just the best Netscape > 4.7 can display such a small font; at that display resultion; mine looks > the same and I have true type fonts installed. There are some things you > could to do in order to read the page, but why, it is the web site thats > broken in my book. > > This is the kind of thing we can avoid by not setting a font size. Well, as a matter of fact, you do see it small, but it is a netscape navigator limitation. You guys could try and set font sizes between -1 and 7 on a test page and tell me which one looks good on 4.7 (imho, none does actually look good). And notice that true type fonts are not the deal here (remember that not everybody on *nix has a true type font server by default). About the "broken in my book" part.. heh, what book? and who broke it? :) Oh, mornings are like this... -- Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n) Box Network (www.boxnetwork.net) Admin and Webmaster From fboliv@student.dei.uc.pt Wed Dec 13 04:55:58 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from student.dei.uc.pt (student.dei.uc.pt [193.137.203.231]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71E452CE26 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 04:55:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (fboliv@localhost) by student.dei.uc.pt (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBD9sgq09963; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:54:42 GMT Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:54:42 +0000 (WET) From: "Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n)" To: Marius Andreiana Cc: GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: Correct specification of fonts In-Reply-To: <3A372D1B.8F0C12C7@rdsnet.ro> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Marius Andreiana wrote: > Aren't cascading stylesheets used for fonts, colors, etc, stored in a > separate file ? > Shouldn't use tag at all, only CSS. Of course we should use CSS. But thats not actually the point at this moment. The point is choosing an acceptable font that displays nicely on every OS and browser. So don't actually worry much about tags because they probably won't exist. Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n) Box Network (www.boxnetwork.net) Admin and Webmaster From menthos@menthos.com Wed Dec 13 12:09:25 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from kobra.efd.lth.se (kobra.efd.lth.se [130.235.34.36]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D69782E043 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 12:09:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from menthos.com (E405.sparta.lu.se [194.47.241.12]) by kobra.efd.lth.se (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id eBDH9N913526 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 18:09:23 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <3A37AD70.8080103@menthos.com> Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 18:10:08 +0100 From: Christian Rose User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16-22 i686; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001205 X-Accept-Language: sv, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Correct specification of fonts References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Maybe not using pixels or points but the non-specific sizes that CSS provides is somewhat "cleaner" (http://www.eskimo.com/%7Ebloo/indexdot/css/properties/font/fontsize.htm). Of course, it is still a question if we should use "medium", "small", or "x-small". In my personal experience, many developing only for Windows are using "xx-small" but that is completely unreadable on Linux with default settings. "x-small" or "small" are readable though. "medium" is probably too big. Christian Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n) wrote: >> Aren't cascading stylesheets used for fonts, colors, etc, stored in a >> separate file ? >> Shouldn't use tag at all, only CSS. > > Of course we should use CSS. But thats not actually the point at this > moment. The point is choosing an acceptable font that displays nicely on > every OS and browser. So don't actually worry much about tags > because they probably won't exist. From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Wed Dec 13 15:50:34 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 648632E46E for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 15:50:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id OAA184382 (8.9.1/50); Wed, 13 Dec 2000 14:49:55 -0600 Message-Id: <200012132049.OAA184382@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: another GNOME comp, 2 From: Ryan Muldoon To: John Emerson Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 14 Dec 2000 00:51:12 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work This design is a nice generic website design, but it has nothing saying "This is GNOME" Gnome has a fairly well-defined aesthetic that the site needs to represent. There is a GNOME palette, and gnome-looking graphics. We should keep this in mind. --Ryan > > This one with a little more color: > http://backspace.com/gnome2.gif > > > - John > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-web-list mailing list > gnome-web-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-web-list 9 From sopwith@redhat.com Wed Dec 13 16:03:20 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (host156.207-175-42.redhat.com [207.175.42.156]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E22552BC26 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 16:03:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (sopwith@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBDL3JH15517 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 16:03:19 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: devserv.devel.redhat.com: sopwith owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 16:03:18 -0500 (EST) From: Elliot Lee X-Sender: To: Subject: Re: another GNOME comp, 2 In-Reply-To: <200012132049.OAA184382@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On 14 Dec 2000, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > There is a GNOME palette, and gnome-looking graphics. Since when? There is only tradition, and tradition can be changed at will (for precedent, look at the latest www.gnome.org, which used none of the "brown" colors of previous web sites). Let your imagination run wild, -- Elliot "The Pythagorean Theorem employed 24 words, the Lord's Prayer has 66 words, Archimedes Principle has 67 words, the 10 Commandments have 179 words, the Gettysburg Address had 286 words, the Declaration of Independence, 1,300 words and finally the European Commission's regulation on the sale of cabbage: 26,911 words." From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Wed Dec 13 16:42:06 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3BA52E4AD for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 16:39:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id PAA200176 (8.9.1/50); Wed, 13 Dec 2000 15:39:13 -0600 Message-Id: <200012132139.PAA200176@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: another GNOME comp, 2 From: Ryan Muldoon To: Elliot Lee Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 14 Dec 2000 01:40:30 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > On 14 Dec 2000, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > > > There is a GNOME palette, and gnome-looking graphics. > > Since when? > > There is only tradition, and tradition can be changed at will (for > precedent, look at the latest www.gnome.org, which used none of the > "brown" colors of previous web sites). > > Let your imagination run wild, Sure, there are no official GNOME colors. But there is a tradition. Personally, I really don't like the colors of the current website, or the blue swoosh things, or the "computing made easy". Why? It didn't make me think of GNOME. Look at Apple's website. Or Microsoft's. Or Be's. All of them have an interface that is similar to that of the GUI. To me, that is a good thing. I think Helixcode's website does an excellent job of this - gnome.org should strive to do the same. The website should be pushing the platform - to do that, you need to show the "mood" of gnome. To me, part of gnome's appeal is its aesthetic. Maybe I'm alone in that. In my experience designing websites, those that are successful push the mood of the content. The framework should be so good, it is transparent to the user. --Ryan From gbreland@healthtech.net Wed Dec 13 10:06:54 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from ahtmail.healthtech.net (mail.healthtech.net [208.137.134.227]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF5432E27A for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 10:06:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by AHTMAIL with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:01:58 -0600 Message-ID: <102E310E554DD411B9BC006008F6053C079536@AHTMAIL> From: Greg Breland To: GNOME-web-list Subject: RE: Correct specification of fonts Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:01:58 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Why do we have to find a font that displays nicely on each browser. Why not have browser detect code that will deliver the correct CSS to each browser? This will be important to make the page accessible by lynx, IE3,IE$, NN4 and such. Then have a generic CCS1-2 for IE5.x, NN6.x, Opera Basically, the pages would be usable by older browsers, but might not look the best. This does not include the front page, which needs to look consistent in each browser. Once you get away from the front page and into the content, accessibility is more important than consistent appearance as long as the appearance is readable. Greg > ..... The point is choosing an acceptable font that > displays nicely on > every OS and browser. So don't actually worry much about tags > because they probably won't exist. From john@backspace.com Wed Dec 13 23:55:22 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net (smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.39.156]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E49CE2E149 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 23:55:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from [151.202.183.68] (adsl-151-202-183-68.nyc.adsl.bellatlantic.net [151.202.183.68]) by smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA28205 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 23:55:16 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: john@mail.backspace.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 00:08:24 -0500 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org From: John Emerson Subject: another GNOME comp, 3 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Here's a little more GNOME'ish: http://backspace.com/gnome3.gif I know, I know, it says "Get GNOME" three times... but this is all just brainstorming while we wait for a finalized structure. - John From digitect@mindspring.com Thu Dec 14 01:03:39 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B2732BCDC for ; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 01:03:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf2re.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.139.110]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA30664 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 01:03:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <025001c06593$964cfe40$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: Subject: Structure v.0.1-5 (estimate) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 01:03:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Ok, you guys are going to shoot me for this verbosity, but since discussion on structure has waned a bit lately, I thought I'd toss in my list to date. Below is basically an exhaustive collection of our statements up until now along with my editorial comments at no extra charge. (Well, you do have to read them. ;) Not trying to step on Joakim's forthcoming proposal, just thought it would be helpful to revisit the content list in the meantime. As I've droned before, my feelings are to aim the site at two main groups: Users and the Developer Community... ______________________________________________________________________ USER - Assumes the user has a system with GNOME already installed and properly maintained via distribution installation, a System Administrator or a third party commercial delivery system such as HelixCode or Eazel. Or perhaps a Windows user just wanting to know what Linux is and ended up here because our art is cool. Probably not interested in joining the GNOME community yet, just wants productivity from the desktop. Enough educational/marketing material needs to exist here to enable the later transition to contributor if desired. * Introduction (What is GNOME?) - Intro Docs - A few important documents here like "What is a desktop?" and "Is it like Windows?" - Screenshots - Bugs - I've found a bug, what do I do? (Great opportunity to expose the developer side.) * Headlines - Information and articles of general interest only. Things like "Number of GNOME users increasing" and "Bob explains metathemeing." * Help/UsrDocs - Quick start - GNOME users guide - Tutorials - Links . GNU . HelixCode/Easel/etc. . Themes - Published books * Press/Marketing - Lecture circuit - Other appearances (Radio, TV, print) - Calendar * Support - Here's where we fork into the Commercial v. do it yourself (developer.gnome.org) argument and begin to present the user with the benefits of rolling his own. (Leads naturally onto the Developer side.) * (Download) - Shouldn't exist on the user side. Reasoning: Does GNOME really want to distribute software for the average or newbie user? I doubt that we will ever have the resources or desire to create a delivery system as useful or efficient as the commercial companies for a typical user. Why go to all the trouble? Although I believe that GNOME should always be available from the GNOME site (!), I think we will do better explaining how the basic desktop components work for the user here and point experienced users to the Developer side to obtain specific rpms and src files for the extended range of software. We need to focus on helping the user with the core desktop (calculator, calendar, applets, etc.) and all of this stuff will probably be installed for him already. Remember, he doesn't have root access and isn't capable of compiling source anyway. ______________________________________________________________________ DEVELOPER COMMUNITY - Perhaps this is where our community really begins. Up until this point, the user is interested in just getting GNOME to work and finding out what it can do. But if he's impressed enough to dig deeper, and perhaps tries a dual boot installation on his home computer, then he'll need the support of the larger community. To me, that's entry level on the developer side which then expands to the full depth. * News (Developer) - Software update list - Gnotices - Project of the week * Docs, Developer - Contribution - Philosophical stuff only, directs through to projects (below) - White papers - FAQs - Mailing lists - Newsgroups/Threads? * Contacts - Developers (Advogado-like?) - Mail contact - IRC * Software map - Flexible listing by date, category, authors, etc. - CVS * Bug management - perhaps attached to the software database? * Projects/Communities - Components - GTK+ - Glade - Pango - Gimp - Office - GDP - UI Hitsquad - Sound - Icons - Graphics - Advocacy - Testing - Translation * Foundation stuff - charter - foundation meeting minutes - board members, with contact info - advisory board info - application form for membership From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Thu Dec 14 11:59:21 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8F0B2BABE for ; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 11:59:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 146biu-0005dn-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 17:59:17 +0100 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 11:56:57 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Design document [Draft 1] Message-ID: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work So, here's the much anticipated design document draft. There are a couple of pieces missing, and it'll require quite a bit of discussion, but I think I've created something that will be a decent starting point. When replying, please consider trimming extensively, just quoting the exact pieces you're commenting on, and try to keep it compact. This thread can get very extensive if we don't. Also, if you have several long comments to different parts, consider replying in two different mails. ----- GNOME WEBSITES - DESIGN DOCUMENT Draft 1 Joakim Ziegler TABLE OF CONTENTS 1. Introduction 2. Audience and goals 3. Navigation structure/usability 4. Graphical design 5. Localization 6. Technology 1. Introduction This is a draft design document for the GNOME websites. It's based on the discussion on gnome-web-list@gnome.org, as well as my own personal suggestions/preferences. Don't take things here as written in stone, this is mostly intended as a starting point for discussion. The structure of the document is fairly general, and is designed to accommodate most changes, so we won't have to go around changing the actual structure, just the content of the sections. It's a lot easier that way. 2. Audience and goals The GNOME websites span a rather large range of audiences (and corresponding goals), including users, developers, members of the press, representatives of companies considering supporting GNOME, and so on. The goals can be broken down as follows: 2.1 Marketing GNOME One of the primary goals of the GNOME websites, specifically www.gnome.org, is to market GNOME towards people who don't have it installed yet. Even though GNOME is well on its way to becoming a de facto standard desktop environment for GNU/Linux users, there is still a rather large group out there who are not yet using it (not to mention all the users of other Unices, as well as Windows and MacOS). Primary tools for doing this is the www.gnome.org frontpage (body text), as well as sections specifically designed to market GNOME to new users (the "Find out what GNOME is" section of the current site is a good example, although there should be more). 2.2 Providing GNOME news There is a lot happening in the GNOME community, and people want a place to get informed about the latest news. news.gnome.org fills this function rather well, but currently suffers from being poorly integrated with the rest of the GNOME sites (visually and content-wise). The base features of the current news.gnome.org are good, though: Posting of articles with followup discussion, along the lines of Slashdot. 2.3 Informing users Users need a wide variety of information. New users should have easy access to introductory documentation, tutorials, installation howtos, FAQs and so on. More experienced users should be able to find detailed documentation, troubleshooting guides, pointers to software of different types, etc. The user-oriented documentation could possibly be arranged around where the user is in the GNOME pipeline: Getting ready to install - Installing - Running it the first time - Learning to use it efficiently - Getting more software. 2.4 Educating developers developer.gnome.org is the prime resource for GNOME developer information. Since we're also managing the www.gtk.org assets, we're in a rather unique position to make developer.gnome.org into a one-stop site for all g-prefixed development information. Most of the current content is excellent, although it could benefit from somewhat better organization and navigational structure. Types of content: Technology overviews/whitepapers, tutorials, API docs, high-level guidelines. 2.5 Informing the press GNOME is getting massive press coverage lately. Even when our handling of press contacts has been low quality, slow, or non-existent, we've gotten excellent press. It's clear that we could get even more press coverage if we were slightly more aggressive in our handling of these matters. At the moment, our press resources mainly consists of a list of e-mail addresses, one for general press inquiries, a couple of corporate ones, and some for press contacts local to specific countries. Ideally, we should have a complete press kit online. It should include all the stuff journalists normally ask for when they contact gnome-press-contact@gnome.org, such as a brief description and history of the project, the structure of the GNOME foundation, representative screenshots, publicity shots of central people in the organization, and so on. 2.6 Informing ISVs and other corporate entities We've traditionally been rather bad at addressing the information needs of corporate entities specifcally. They've mostly been forced to browse the standard information on the site, and then post their inquiries to mailing lists. While the information needs of companies vary a lot, we should at least make an effort to address their basic needs. Information about the GNOME foundation advisory board, companies currently working with and supporting GNOME, and so on will be helpful. Generally, this is about marketing GNOME to potential corporate backers, as well as informing them. 3. Navigation structure/usability The navigational structure for the GNOME sites is by no means a given. There has been a lot of discussion, particularly about the top-level division of areas, where there have been suggestions for task-oriented, user group oriented, and subject oriented navigation, as well as variations over these three basic themes. My current proposal is to use a task/subject hybrid structure, with user group oriented navigation as an alternative method of access. That is, the main categories of the navigation tree are task/subject oriented, and we present a small menu in a sidebar or similar on the frontpage for users to navigate by user group, which leads to one page per user group, with a collection of links that's relevant for that group. That still leaves the problem of creating the top-level categories. It's very easy to either overspecialize the categories, and end up with too many (anything over 10-12 is too many, in reality) or create too broad categories that are unintuitive. I created 12 categories which I believe are rather intuitive for the user, and span all the information we want to place on the GNOME sites. I've not created the actual structure beneath each toplevel category, as I think it's not entirely clear yet what things we actually *want*, however I believe this structure is general enough that it'll be able to hold whatever we want to put into it. The order of this list might be illogical. 3.1 Top-level structure About Introductory documents. Mainly for those unfamiliar with GNOME in general, and who want a quick way to figure out what this is all about. Includes the a "What is GNOME" document, the general GNOME FAQ, and also documents for companies interested in supporting GNOME, the project roadmap, etc. Screenshots An important link to have on the front page, since this is what a lot of people look for. Idea for structure: Split it up into several different types of screenshots, like "Basic", "Businesslike", "Applications", "Oddities", etc. Perhaps make screenshots imagemaps which can be clicked to bring you to the appindex page of each displayed application? Get it Describe the various ways to get and install GNOME. CVS, GNOME FTP servers, Linux distributions which include GNOME, and Helix GNOME would all be relevant pointers here. It's a matter of resources how much we want to actually support all of this, but we should at least have instructions for how to get, build and install GNOME from CVS and GNOME FTP. Support How to get help with GNOME. All the documentation should be here, as well as pointers to mailing lists, bugzilla, IRC channels, etc. News Gnotices in some shape or form. Basically newsitems with discussion. Software A revamped, expanded version of the Appindex. Should let you search for software in a variety of ways, including category, file types it'll read and write (very practical for all the people who come onto IRC and say "What GNOME program can read a .foo file?", and so on. Possibly also an equivalence index, where people can say "I need something like Outlook", and it'll take you to Evolution. Developer Entry for the developer minded. Basically the combined content of today's developer.gnome.org and www.gtk.org. Press All the info members of the press would need to represent GNOME in a correct manner. Journalists work under time constraints, so this is where we have the chance to give them all the info they need in one neat package. Should include a press kit (possibly in PDF format), a list of contact mail addresses and phone numbers (I know, phone numbers are so 1985, but some journalists prefer them), press photos (preferably, each press contact listed should have a downloadable high-resolution photo for the press to use when interviewing), representative screenshots (of the nice and simple variety), and so on. The press kit itself should be a brief presentation of GNOME, talking about the project history, the foundation, the current status, what corporate backers there are, etc. Foundation All the formal stuff about the foundation, how a company can join the advisory board, current board of directors, board meeting minutes, and so on. The exact content of this section should be up to the people more directly involved with the foundation, I believe. Contact Ways to contact the GNOME project and the members, for various purposes. This should definitely be broken down by task, so that bug reports can be directed to bugzilla, press inquiries to the press section, etc. Events An events calendar, listing upcoming tradeshows where GNOME will be present, as well as scheduled upcoming releases. People Developer index, developer interviews (I'd like to resurrect that section, even though I only ever did one interview, I think it was a good one, and it's a great way to show the faces behind the software. Actually, it's such a good idea that KDE cloned it off our site), and so on. 3.2 Other navigation methods, shortcuts into the structure, etc. The structure outlined above is a reasonable main navigational structure, but one structure will never fit everyone. Hence, I'm suggesting augmenting it with a few metastructures that will mainly be accessible through the front page: Role description Allow people to choose who they are from a small menu (about ten items, perhaps), and arrive on a page of quick links for the group they chose. The links go directly into the structure, and are the ones we believe are useful for that group, in the order they should be read. Quick tasks Allow people to choose a few typical tasks from a menu, and go directly to those pages. These should be the 4-8 pages people visit the most, but that are still not logical to make into top-level categories. Things that spring to mind as obvious candidates are "Report a bug", "I need help!", etc. Search the site A search box on the front page is a necessity, and should search the entire site. 4. Graphical design There have been several quick sketches of the web site look and feel on the list lately. There seems to be considerable agreement on several aspects of the graphical design. I've tried to sum up those here, as well as inject some common sense rules, and some opinions of my own, of course. 4.1 Colors and typefaces High contrast is easier to read than low contrast. Dark text on a light background is easier to read than the opposite. It seems clear that we should use black text on white or light pastel backgrounds throughout the site, to keep readability as high as possible. This doesn't, however, exclude the occasional use of light-on-dark for menus with reasonably few items, etc. Typefaces on the web are a difficult problem. While technologies like CSS give decent control over what typefaces the browser chooses to use, there's no good, standardized and open method for downloading typefaces, hence one is limited mainly to specifying sans-serif or serif fonts. Sans fonts are widely used because they look cleaner, however, serifs theoretically increase readability, if rendered correctly, but font rendering in web browsers, especially under X, is abysmal. Thus, it might be worth considering using a sans font for the GNOME sites. 4.2 Headlines and icons For maintainability, headlines should be text only. The current design uses graphics for some text (most notably the menus), and this has proven to be difficult to maintain and update. Even though there are techniques for generating images of text on the fly and caching them, we should try to avoid this as much as possible. It would be good to integrate some icons into the site, since GNOME has very attractive icons on the desktop, etc. However, keeping the site light on graphics is probably a good idea, and since icons would have to be specially created for the site, it's dangerous to rely on them (if we had an icon per section, adding a new section would entail finding an icon artist to do another icon in the style of the existing ones). 4.3 Navigation bars and menus There are basically two main layouts used for the main navigation bars (navigating the main hierarchy). One, which has been the standard for most sites for a very long time, is the "Along the left side of the page" vertical menu. The advantages are that we can include basically as many items as we want, since vertical is the axis people are used to scrolling on anyway. The disadvantage is that subnavigation is difficult to integrate intuitively (most attempts use an indenting system, which tends to make the menu very wide). The other, which has become more common lately, is the stacked horizontal navbars along the top of the page. The advantages of this is that revealing several levels of navigation is very easy and intuitive, by adding bars below each other, The disadvantage is that it's somewhat limiting in the number of items that can be included on each level of navigation. Personally, I've come to prefer the stacked horizontal bars, if they're practical given the navigation structure, for a number of reasons. They stay out of the way a lot more than the vertical menu (since the vertical menus usually means wrapping the whole content in a table and putting the menu in a table cell to the left of it, so that there's essentially a strip of blank space all the way down below the menu bar), it takes up less screen realestate in general, and it's a model most people are comfortable with. We could optionally also include "breadcrumbs" to make finding out exactly where you are in the structure simpler (breadcrumbs are the category > subcategory > current page used on for instance yahoo.) If we use horizontal stacked bars, I suggest we place the alternate navigation methods (user group based, quick links, search) in a column along one of the sides of the frontpage, possibly in little boxes. 5. Localization We've amply discussed this. I'm going to write a section on it, but I believe it's not vital right now, and I really want to just get this document out there. 6. Technology Technology should be decided after a few days of discussion and fleshing out of the sections above. ----- -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From duane@extrawebs.com Thu Dec 14 12:00:20 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail.bartnet.net (mail.bartnet.net [38.197.168.6]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DD7E2E093 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 12:00:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from Duane (pool-216-209.bartnet.net [38.194.216.209]) by mail.bartnet.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA12392; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 11:06:18 -0600 Message-ID: <002001c065ef$3742fce0$03000004@Duane> From: "Duane Richards" To: "Ryan Muldoon" Cc: "gnome web list" References: <200012132139.PAA200176@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: another GNOME comp, 2 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 10:59:18 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work My name is Duane Richards, I've followed this list for several weeks now and I am interested in contributing some code and experience to the gnome website. I think that this is where we need to start and I agree with Ryan that the interface should be as seamless as possible between the gnome desktop and the website if possible even to the level of inheriting some features of the users desktop settings. For example there are different themes that can be applied to gkrellm and the desktop windows themselves. Could we allow these same themes to be applied to certain areas of the website? I also agree that we should try and keep the overall 'mood' of the original design and to model Helixcode's site would not be a bad thing. duane ----- Original Message ----- From: Ryan Muldoon To: Elliot Lee Cc: Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 2:40 PM Subject: Re: another GNOME comp, 2 > > On 14 Dec 2000, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > > > > > There is a GNOME palette, and gnome-looking graphics. > > > > Since when? > > > > There is only tradition, and tradition can be changed at will (for > > precedent, look at the latest www.gnome.org, which used none of the > > "brown" colors of previous web sites). > > > > Let your imagination run wild, > > > > Sure, there are no official GNOME colors. But there is a tradition. > Personally, I really don't like the colors of the current website, or > the blue swoosh things, or the "computing made easy". Why? It didn't > make me think of GNOME. Look at Apple's website. Or Microsoft's. Or > Be's. All of them have an interface that is similar to that of the > GUI. To me, that is a good thing. I think Helixcode's website does an > excellent job of this - gnome.org should strive to do the same. The > website should be pushing the platform - to do that, you need to show > the "mood" of gnome. To me, part of gnome's appeal is its > aesthetic. Maybe I'm alone in that. In my experience designing > websites, those that are successful push the mood of the content. The > framework should be so good, it is transparent to the user. > > > --Ryan > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-web-list mailing list > gnome-web-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-web-list From ryan@devnut.com Sat Dec 16 13:27:18 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from web.olypen.com (olypen.com [208.200.248.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 294DC2BAB1 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 13:27:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from devnu(ppp-58.olypen.com[208.238.207.62]) (813 bytes) by web.olypen.com via sendmail with P:smtp/R:inet_hosts/T:smtp (sender: ) id for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 10:32:29 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2.0.109 1999-Oct-27 #15 built 1999-Dec-15) From: "Ryan Christensen" To: "Gnome Web List" Subject: RE: Design document [Draft 1] Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 10:23:50 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 In-Reply-To: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work I'm going to work on a reply to this that I'll send off later tonight.. however, it looks great! Ryan >... From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sat Dec 16 16:38:53 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3ED9F2BAB1 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 16:38:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147P2t-0006to-00; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 22:39:12 +0100 Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 16:36:43 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Cc: tigert@helixcode.com Subject: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org, tigert@helixcode.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work [I'm Cc:ing this to Tuomas, since I'm unsure if he's on this list, and he's had more to do with GNOME's visual image through the ages than anyone else, so I'd love to hear his opinion] I was playing with some GNOME site mockups today. Nothing even close to finished yet, more like an exercise for myself, to see what sort of structures worked, and if I came up with something that "clicked". And I started thinking: What colors are representative of GNOME? We've had quite a few color schemes on GNOME web pages, varying both through time and from site to site. I've put up a little comparison chart, with the current www.kde.org colors included for reference, at: http://www.avmaria.com/colorschemes.png So what do we want for the new GNOME pages? There are obviously certain things that are given (and I've mentioned them in the design document draft), such as legibility dictating probably black body text on white background for the main text of the site, but beyond that, it's fairly open. Personally, I'd like the color scheme we use to be strong (the current www.gnome.org pages are fairly strong, but I was a little wussy in my choice of the pastels, on the other hand, the old GNOME page, and Gnotices, has a very strong red that I like, but the other colors are very weak), and distinctive (I ended up playing with blues in my new mockups, since blues are very safe, but they're also very KDE, so we should probably stay away). I'm wondering what people are seeing as GNOME colors. What colors "say" GNOME to you? It'd be great if people came up with simple color comps before we started doing actual site mockups. Just make an image with the colors you think we should use put beside each other. It can be even more simple than the ones I've done in my overview. It'd be great to come up with the following, at least: Background color, body text color, link colors, alternate background color (for boxes, etc) with the text colors to be applied on the alternate background, and a couple of accent and emphasis colors. There can be more, but these are the minimum colors a scheme should have to be flexible enough to fit the entire site. If you can't be bothered to make some color comps, please follow up to this thread with some thoughts about colors that you feel fit GNOME. When we have some agreement on this, it should go in the design document. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Sat Dec 16 17:55:30 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 494552CE02 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 17:55:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id QAA36840 (8.9.1/50); Sat, 16 Dec 2000 16:55:22 -0600 Message-Id: <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: GNOME colors From: Ryan Muldoon To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org, tigert@helixcode.com In-Reply-To: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 17 Dec 2000 02:56:31 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work While I don't have the time to do a color comp at the moment (finals), I'd like to put in my thoughts on the web site's color scheme: 1. Pastels should go away - They appear nowhere in gnome artwork. In my mind, they are almost the opposite of the general gnome aesthetic concept. 2. Reds, Browns, Yellows, dark green, and greyscale seem to be the most used colors in gnome artwork. I think the website should reflect this. 3. I am partial to continuing in the Tigert tradition for artwork - it is the distinctive GNOME feel. 4. The background-oriented colors should be subdued and earthy (yellow, white, grey, light brown), and then use the stronger colors for text (black), links (red/rust/maroonish, dark green) and content. As I've said before, the helixcode.com website did a good job of reflecting the GNOME feel - we should try to do similarly (but not use the same look, obviously). I think it is important to reflect the feel of the GUI while we are promoting it. While in general primary colors are nice and strong and such, they have little to do with the GNOME look and feel. It's important to consider this when we are making the website. People should be immediately be able to tell that it is the GNOME website, and not something else. --Ryan From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Sat Dec 16 18:04:24 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C8602CE02 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 18:04:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id RAA100834 (8.9.1/50); Sat, 16 Dec 2000 17:04:17 -0600 Message-Id: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] From: Ryan Muldoon To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 17 Dec 2000 03:05:26 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work My thoughts (for now) are about sections 2 and 3: > > 2. Audience and goals > > The GNOME websites span a rather large range of audiences (and corresponding > goals), including users, developers, members of the press, representatives of > companies considering supporting GNOME, and so on. The goals can be broken > down as follows: > I think one of the main goals should be the issue of integrating new members of the GNOME community. What I mean by this is encouraging people to get involved in improving GNOME. The best way to accelerate the rate of improvement of GNOME is to get more people involved. > 3. Navigation structure/usability To further my suggested goal, I think that we should have a "get involved" (or "projects of the week") top level link. This would basically lead to a section of the website that lists needed tasks from each of the various projects. conceivably it could include teh bugzilla link to the wishlist item. It would also have a contact email address for each task. These projects would let people wishing to contribute to quickly get started doing little things without much effort overhead. I think that this is really very important: GNOME should try and integrate as many new members as it can. We should push the fact that we're an open project that welcomes newcomers (as is stated in the GNOME foundation charter). If we want to push it even more, we can publish the accomplishments of new members in the "People" section that you propose, to give people a fame incentive to participate. --Ryan From jdub@giardia.yourweb.com.au Sat Dec 16 18:23:42 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from giardia.yourweb.com.au (giardia.yourweb.com.au [61.8.3.32]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EBAB2D711 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 18:11:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by giardia.yourweb.com.au (Postfix, from userid 609) id 9747B17BB1; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:11:54 +1100 (EST) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:11:54 +1100 From: Jeff Waugh To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] Message-ID: <20001217101154.D17103@giardia.yourweb.com.au> References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 03:05:26AM +0500 X-Message: Leenooks, Lienucks, Leenoos, Lienus, Let's call the whole thing off. X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.17 i686 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > I think one of the main goals should be the issue of integrating new > members of the GNOME community. What I mean by this is encouraging > people to get involved in improving GNOME. The best way to accelerate > the rate of improvement of GNOME is to get more people involved. > > To further my suggested goal, I think that we should have a "get > involved" (or "projects of the week") top level link. Absolutely. On top of Dan Meuth's "Getting Involved" document, this will help immensely, and is important enough to put on the front page. In fact, a whole section of the website could be devoted to new projects, people, things to do, etc. We just need maintainers. :) Good call, Ryan! - Jeff -- jdub@aphid.net --------------------------------- http://linux.conf.au/ -- ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI. From digitect@mindspring.com Sat Dec 16 19:35:31 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7FC92D61F for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 19:31:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4ek.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.212]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA02795; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 19:31:24 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001001c067c0$aec4f8e0$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: "Ryan Muldoon" Cc: References: <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: GNOME colors Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 19:31:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Wow. I couldn't agree more. You beat me to saying this. That. What he said. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ryan Muldoon" To: "Joakim Ziegler" Cc: ; Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 4:56 PM Subject: Re: GNOME colors > > 1. Pastels should go away - They appear nowhere in gnome artwork. In my > mind, they are almost the opposite of the general gnome aesthetic > concept. > > 2. Reds, Browns, Yellows, dark green, and greyscale seem to be the most > used colors in gnome artwork. I think the website should reflect this. > > 3. I am partial to continuing in the Tigert tradition for artwork - it > is the distinctive GNOME feel. > > 4. The background-oriented colors should be subdued and earthy (yellow, > white, grey, light brown), and then use the stronger colors for text > (black), links (red/rust/maroonish, dark green) and content. > > While in general primary colors are nice and strong and such, they have > little to do with the GNOME look and feel. It's important to consider > this when we are making the website. People should be immediately be > able to tell that it is the GNOME website, and not something else. > From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sat Dec 16 19:51:54 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A51AF2BBE4 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 19:51:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147S3g-0000xx-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 01:52:15 +0100 Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 19:49:04 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] Message-ID: <20001216194904.D21146@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 03:05:26AM +0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 03:05:26AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: >> The GNOME websites span a rather large range of audiences (and corresponding >> goals), including users, developers, members of the press, representatives of >> companies considering supporting GNOME, and so on. The goals can be broken >> down as follows: > I think one of the main goals should be the issue of integrating new > members of the GNOME community. What I mean by this is encouraging > people to get involved in improving GNOME. The best way to accelerate > the rate of improvement of GNOME is to get more people involved. I agree that participation should be encouraged. People who've read "The Mythical Man-Month" might disagree with the "The best way to accelerate the rate of improvement of GNOME is to get more people involved" statement, though. Specifically, I'm not sure if we *need* to make this a major goal. After all, the percentage of web site users that are even potential contributors is extremely small, and new contributors join GNOME every day, without the current website appealing specifically to them. It's an aspect that should be considered, but personally, I find it a lot more important to communicate well to users, and to the press. >> 3. Navigation structure/usability > To further my suggested goal, I think that we should have a "get > involved" (or "projects of the week") top level link. This would > basically lead to a section of the website that lists needed tasks from > each of the various projects. conceivably it could include teh bugzilla > link to the wishlist item. It would also have a contact email address > for each task. These projects would let people wishing to contribute to > quickly get started doing little things without much effort overhead. I > think that this is really very important: GNOME should try and integrate > as many new members as it can. We should push the fact that we're an > open project that welcomes newcomers (as is stated in the GNOME > foundation charter). This would be well served by a link in the list of "quick links" on the frontpage, I think. "Get involved" is not terribly suited to be a top-level navigation category, as it would either be too broad (by including everything that could be related to getting involved) or too narrow (specific howto type documents). > If we want to push it even more, we can publish the accomplishments of > new members in the "People" section that you propose, to give people a > fame incentive to participate. This is a good idea. It runs into the problem of knowing when someone actually enters the community, though. Most people drift around for a bit and get gradually involved. Of course, we could do this with people who made a substantial contribution (code, translation, whatever) for the first time. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sat Dec 16 20:05:06 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B2FA2BCE2 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 20:05:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147SGR-0002RN-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 02:05:28 +0100 Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 20:02:12 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 02:56:31AM +0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 02:56:31AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > While I don't have the time to do a color comp at the moment (finals), > I'd like to put in my thoughts on the web site's color scheme: > 1. Pastels should go away - They appear nowhere in gnome artwork. In my > mind, they are almost the opposite of the general gnome aesthetic > concept. I agree about the pastels. However, I think it's dangerous to invoke a "GNOME aestetic concept", since there's no such concept, in reality, it's mostly a coincidence, and caused by Tuomas doing a large part of the original icons and so on. Interestingly, the icons Tuomas has been doing lately (for instance for Evolution) have less of the brownish, earthy colors. > 2. Reds, Browns, Yellows, dark green, and greyscale seem to be the most > used colors in gnome artwork. I think the website should reflect this. > 3. I am partial to continuing in the Tigert tradition for artwork - it > is the distinctive GNOME feel. > 4. The background-oriented colors should be subdued and earthy (yellow, > white, grey, light brown), and then use the stronger colors for text > (black), links (red/rust/maroonish, dark green) and content. > As I've said before, the helixcode.com website did a good job of > reflecting the GNOME feel - we should try to do similarly (but not use > the same look, obviously). I think it is important to reflect the feel > of the GUI while we are promoting it. I agree in principle, although I'm not sure it's necessarily a very healthy restriction to impose. For instance, the current www.gnome.org site doesn't follow the GNOME icon color scheme at all, while the old www.gnome.org site did. I think there's little disagreement that the current site is a vast improvement over the old one. Additionally, some of the colors in the GNOME color scheme (especially as used on the old site) are plain bad, visually. Low-saturation greyish browns are extremely dreary colors (while reducing the contrast of the entire site, and thus the readability). There are also different goals for the visual design of a desktop people are supposed to use for 10 hours a day, every day, and a website that serves as an information and promotion channel for that same desktop. Specifically, you have a much shorter time to make and impression, so being less subdued (in color use, design, etc.) is necessary to capture the user and build brand recognition. > While in general primary colors are nice and strong and such, they have > little to do with the GNOME look and feel. It's important to consider > this when we are making the website. People should be immediately be > able to tell that it is the GNOME website, and not something else. Well, I agree that brand recognition is nice. However, as it stands, GNOME has practically no brand at all, beyond the desktop itself (and modelling a web site strictly over a desktop is a very bad idea). Rather than assuming that we should let the look of the desktop dictate the look of the website, I think it would be reasonable to have a back and forth effect. We're in a position to break new ground and make the best GNOME site ever. If the choice stands between a good site that has a strong visual bond to the desktop, and a great site that breaks some of those conventions, I'll go for the great one any day. In short, I'm fine with using the GNOME icon inspired colors, if we can build a great website on it. But I'm not willing to make it the deciding factor in what the final site is going to look like. There are other, more important priorities. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From jdub@giardia.yourweb.com.au Sat Dec 16 20:14:49 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from giardia.yourweb.com.au (giardia.yourweb.com.au [61.8.3.32]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A03D62BEAB for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 20:14:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by giardia.yourweb.com.au (Postfix, from userid 609) id C1ABA17E89; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 12:14:46 +1100 (EST) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 12:14:46 +1100 From: Jeff Waugh To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001217121446.B32045@giardia.yourweb.com.au> References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 02:56:31AM +0500 X-Message: Leenooks, Lienucks, Leenoos, Lienus, Let's call the whole thing off. X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.17 i686 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > 1. Pastels should go away - They appear nowhere in gnome artwork. In my > mind, they are almost the opposite of the general gnome aesthetic > concept. They appear on the Gnome website. :) I think the pastels got a tough review - and for the wrong reasons. Can you remember the old site? Sure, it had "coder's tables" and murky layout, but the colours? Choosing colours for the website is essentially one of the steps in branding Gnome. Do you want to be stuck with dreary, earthy, dank tones, or something upbeat, sleek and futurey? (Terrible marketing words, I know...) > 2. Reds, Browns, Yellows, dark green, and greyscale seem to be the most > used colors in gnome artwork. I think the website should reflect this. Where is this "Gnome artwork"? The Foot? The icons? Stuff stuck in our minds from days gone by? All those browns lead to murky, not perky (good god, now I'm rhyming) - perhaps we should discuss wider branding ideas with the Foundation. > 3. I am partial to continuing in the Tigert tradition for artwork - it > is the distinctive GNOME feel. "What happens if Linus is run over by a bus?" ==> s/Linus/tigert/ The Gnome look'n'feel is already progressing - see the work on Red Carpet, Helix Setup Tools, Evolution, Nautilus... Not much brown in there! :D All the interfaces are going *funky*, not muddy. (My little brother asked if Gnomes wiped their feet after putting their footprints in the website background...) Warm yellows (Helix bubble-buttons) and subtle use of burgundy, with the light Gnome-feet off-whites as shading is looking interesting. I'll do a colour comp in a minute. > People should be immediately be able to tell that it is the GNOME > website, and not something else. That's defintely true - but we can 'remake tradition' at this point too. :) - Jeff -- jdub@aphid.net --------------------------------- http://linux.conf.au/ -- ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI. From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Sat Dec 16 20:29:58 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 339372BBE4 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 20:29:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id TAA233604 (8.9.1/50); Sat, 16 Dec 2000 19:29:44 -0600 Message-Id: <200012170129.TAA233604@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] From: Ryan Muldoon To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20001216194904.D21146@helixcode.com> References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216194904.D21146@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 17 Dec 2000 05:30:52 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > I think one of the main goals should be the issue of integrating new > > members of the GNOME community. What I mean by this is encouraging > > people to get involved in improving GNOME. The best way to accelerate > > the rate of improvement of GNOME is to get more people involved. > > I agree that participation should be encouraged. People who've read "The > Mythical Man-Month" might disagree with the "The best way to accelerate the > rate of improvement of GNOME is to get more people involved" statement, though. > This has nothing to do with "The Mythical Man-Month" in my opinion. I am not talking about huge, key parts of projects to be offered up. I am talking about the simple, nice-to-have projecs that the core developers just don't have time to do. Think of the "Project of the Week" that Havoc Pennington used to do back when there were weekly status reports. > Specifically, I'm not sure if we *need* to make this a major goal. After all, > the percentage of web site users that are even potential contributors is > extremely small, and new contributors join GNOME every day, without the > current website appealing specifically to them. It's an aspect that should be > considered, but personally, I find it a lot more important to communicate > well to users, and to the press. > I really think we do need to make this a major goal. We should be lowering the barrier to entry for participation as much as we can. I think if we can make it nearly trivial to find a little something to do for GNOME, someone who is looking to kill a few hours might do it, and end up wanting to contribute more in the future. GNOME can get all the press in the world, but to really make it, it needs an enthusiastic community behind it. People like the fact that when they look at the back of RedHat boxes, they see their work in one of the screenshots. If we can make this easy, it helps that many more people contribute. > >> 3. Navigation structure/usability > > > To further my suggested goal, I think that we should have a "get > > involved" (or "projects of the week") top level link. This would > > basically lead to a section of the website that lists needed tasks from > > each of the various projects. conceivably it could include teh bugzilla > > link to the wishlist item. It would also have a contact email address > > for each task. These projects would let people wishing to contribute to > > quickly get started doing little things without much effort overhead. I > > think that this is really very important: GNOME should try and integrate > > as many new members as it can. We should push the fact that we're an > > open project that welcomes newcomers (as is stated in the GNOME > > foundation charter). > > This would be well served by a link in the list of "quick links" on the > frontpage, I think. "Get involved" is not terribly suited to be a top-level > navigation category, as it would either be too broad (by including everything > that could be related to getting involved) or too narrow (specific howto type > documents). > The "Get Involved" or "Projects of the Week" (which is probably a better name) shouldn't be categories, you're right. I used some poor wording. What I meant was that it should be a link that appears on every page: a main link. It won't be linking to "howtos" either - it would go to a page that lists little, easy to understand projects that could use doing. For instance: translating something, or writing documentation for a little applet, or coding a part of something, or making an applet, etc. > > > If we want to push it even more, we can publish the accomplishments of > > new members in the "People" section that you propose, to give people a > > fame incentive to participate. > > This is a good idea. It runs into the problem of knowing when someone > actually enters the community, though. Most people drift around for a bit and > get gradually involved. Of course, we could do this with people who made a > substantial contribution (code, translation, whatever) for the first time. > It could just be done when a new person does one of the projects of the week. Easy to figure that out. --Ryan From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Sat Dec 16 20:46:41 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A36AD2BAB8 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 20:46:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id TAA129434 (8.9.1/50); Sat, 16 Dec 2000 19:46:23 -0600 Message-Id: <200012170146.TAA129434@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: GNOME colors From: Ryan Muldoon To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 17 Dec 2000 05:47:32 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 02:56:31AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > > While I don't have the time to do a color comp at the moment (finals), > > I'd like to put in my thoughts on the web site's color scheme: > > > 1. Pastels should go away - They appear nowhere in gnome artwork. In my > > mind, they are almost the opposite of the general gnome aesthetic > > concept. > > I agree about the pastels. However, I think it's dangerous to invoke a "GNOME > aestetic concept", since there's no such concept, in reality, it's mostly a > coincidence, and caused by Tuomas doing a large part of the original icons > and so on. Interestingly, the icons Tuomas has been doing lately (for > instance for Evolution) have less of the brownish, earthy colors. > I really do think that there is a given palette that people think of when they think of GNOME. The Evolution icons still are using reds, greyscale, and yellow, and a bit of brown, so I don't know what you mean.....they are still consistent with the previous icons. > > 2. Reds, Browns, Yellows, dark green, and greyscale seem to be the most > > used colors in gnome artwork. I think the website should reflect this. > > > 3. I am partial to continuing in the Tigert tradition for artwork - it > > is the distinctive GNOME feel. > > > 4. The background-oriented colors should be subdued and earthy (yellow, > > white, grey, light brown), and then use the stronger colors for text > > (black), links (red/rust/maroonish, dark green) and content. > > > As I've said before, the helixcode.com website did a good job of > > reflecting the GNOME feel - we should try to do similarly (but not use > > the same look, obviously). I think it is important to reflect the feel > > of the GUI while we are promoting it. > > I agree in principle, although I'm not sure it's necessarily a very healthy > restriction to impose. For instance, the current www.gnome.org site doesn't > follow the GNOME icon color scheme at all, while the old www.gnome.org site > did. I think there's little disagreement that the current site is a vast > improvement over the old one. > well, in some respects yes, but in others, I think it is much worse. The older websites weren't as fancy, etc, and used tables poorly, but they got some things right. The blue swoosh things on the current website are just wastes of screen real estate, and don't match the normal GNOME colors. The menus are graphics rather than text, which is not wise for many reasons. Their colors are also odd. The "Computing Made Easy" slogan I also think is bad. But having a white background is nice, as it is clean looking. > Additionally, some of the colors in the GNOME color scheme (especially as > used on the old site) are plain bad, visually. Low-saturation greyish browns > are extremely dreary colors (while reducing the contrast of the entire site, > and thus the readability). There are also different goals for the visual > design of a desktop people are supposed to use for 10 hours a day, every day, > and a website that serves as an information and promotion channel for that > same desktop. Specifically, you have a much shorter time to make and > impression, so being less subdued (in color use, design, etc.) is necessary > to capture the user and build brand recognition. > > I think that you are ignoring the fact that you can still easily produce contrast. Those low saturation colors are extremely suitable for things in the background - muted highlighting, etc. Black and white, and proper use of reds will give us plenty of contrast. I am by no means suggesting that we put brown text on a yellow background - that is just silly. Black text on a white background should be a given. However, I think that having the "decorative" parts of the site being somewhat muted is an advantage rather than a disadvantage. It doesn't distract the user's eyes from the content. This is something that people who need to get at information appreciate. How can you buiild brand recognition if the colors/feel you use have nothing to do with the product? > > While in general primary colors are nice and strong and such, they have > > little to do with the GNOME look and feel. It's important to consider > > this when we are making the website. People should be immediately be > > able to tell that it is the GNOME website, and not something else. > > Well, I agree that brand recognition is nice. However, as it stands, GNOME > has practically no brand at all, beyond the desktop itself (and modelling a > web site strictly over a desktop is a very bad idea). Rather than assuming > that we should let the look of the desktop dictate the look of the website, I > think it would be reasonable to have a back and forth effect. We're in a > position to break new ground and make the best GNOME site ever. If the choice > stands between a good site that has a strong visual bond to the desktop, and > a great site that breaks some of those conventions, I'll go for the great one > any day. > I am not suggesting that we organize the site as we would a desktop. they are two different media. However, I don't think that the website should influence the desktop either - I don't know how you would do this in the first place. I think that the "tigert" feel is rather nice. I am one of those people that use their computer for 10 hours a day, so I appreciate the aesthetic quality. One ot the reasons I enjoy using GNOME so much is that it is rather attractive and sophisticated feeling. If we were to make a "great" GNOME website with magenta and orange, I would call it a poor GNOME website. In my experience, there is a difference between a great generic website and a great branded website. > In short, I'm fine with using the GNOME icon inspired colors, if we can build > a great website on it. But I'm not willing to make it the deciding factor in > what the final site is going to look like. There are other, more important > priorities. > I just want to make sure that we website actually represents GNOME. That should be the most important deciding factor. I'm sure you agree with me.....perhaps we just see different ways of arriving at that goal. --Ryan From digitect@mindspring.com Sat Dec 16 21:05:29 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D6CD2BAB8 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:05:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4ek.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.212]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA28032; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:05:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: "Joakim Ziegler" , References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> Subject: Re: GNOME colors Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:05:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work From: "Joakim Ziegler" Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 9:02 PM Subject: Re: GNOME colors > I think there's little disagreement that the current site is a vast > improvement over the old one. I'm not sure I would agree. One of the things I first noticed about GNOME was the softer tone of the web site. I tire of getting hit with primaries and contrast at every page I go to, and the old GNOME site was a refreshing change. (No offense intended Joakim, just my preference.) > > Additionally, some of the colors in the GNOME color scheme (especially as > used on the old site) are plain bad, visually. Low-saturation greyish browns > are extremely dreary colors (while reducing the contrast of the entire site, > and thus the readability). There are also different goals for the visual > design of a desktop people are supposed to use for 10 hours a day, every day, > and a website that serves as an information and promotion channel for that > same desktop. Specifically, you have a much shorter time to make and > impression, so being less subdued (in color use, design, etc.) is necessary > to capture the user and build brand recognition. This is *definitely* a matter of aesthetic opinion. What you say is "dreary" I think is easy on the eyes. Fact is, when you stare at a monitor 10 hours a day, a slightly lower intensity and contrast is more desirable. (Not too much of course, just a little.) Also, I don't care about making a visual splash and capturing the casual visitor to the site through theatrics. GNOME is better. That's why you would want to use it. Let's make the site *clear*, useful and navigable and let the user judge for himself whether or not GNOME is better. Sooner or later, flash runs out of steam, and they'll go on to something else. There's a saying in architecture: "If you can't make it good, make it big. If you can't make it big, paint it red." Let's just make it good. > Well, I agree that brand recognition is nice. However, as it stands, GNOME > has practically no brand at all, beyond the desktop itself (and modelling a > web site strictly over a desktop is a very bad idea). Rather than assuming > that we should let the look of the desktop dictate the look of the website, I > think it would be reasonable to have a back and forth effect.... I agree, with the caveat that the desktop is basically so flexible that it doesn't really have a look (especially with upcoming meta-themeing flexibility). *Except* for the icons ... ... which is why I'm a big proponent of keeping the site very minimal (of color) except for the desktop art we choose to use. It expresses the aesthetic of GNOME better than anything else. Ok, now my turn. Try these on: http://www.mindspring.com/~steve_hall/gnome/comp-stevehall03.htm http://www.mindspring.com/~steve_hall/gnome/comp-stevehall02d.htm (This one is *not* intended to be a real proposal, just a way of testing icons against a gray on charcoal scheme.) The first test comp is obviously neutral. But as you can see from the developer alternative, with neutrality comes flexibility. If we make the main GNOME site's colors too strong, the myriad related application and project sites will have much more of a struggle to maintain/create their own identity while still incorporating some flavor of the central GNOME site. Take the current site's "pastels". Anybody else using them? Of course not, because it's too strong to be identifiable as anything other than the main site. I guess I'm trying to say that these pages, like the desktop, is a canvas on which many projects and applications are painted. It isn't supposed to stand out, just be a good supporting structure. Let's keep it clear and somewhat neutral. It can still be kickin if the composition is proportional and we express style through the subtler things. Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Sat Dec 16 21:06:15 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0814B2BAB8 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:06:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id UAA128390 (8.9.1/50); Sat, 16 Dec 2000 20:05:42 -0600 Message-Id: <200012170205.UAA128390@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: GNOME colors From: Ryan Muldoon To: Jeff Waugh Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20001217121446.B32045@giardia.yourweb.com.au> References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001217121446.B32045@giardia.yourweb.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 17 Dec 2000 06:06:50 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > > > 1. Pastels should go away - They appear nowhere in gnome artwork. In my > > mind, they are almost the opposite of the general gnome aesthetic > > concept. > > > They appear on the Gnome website. :) I think the pastels got a tough review > - and for the wrong reasons. Can you remember the old site? Sure, it had > "coder's tables" and murky layout, but the colours? > Right, but they shouldn't have been there. See my reply to Joakim about the current website vs. the old ones. > Choosing colours for the website is essentially one of the steps in branding > Gnome. Do you want to be stuck with dreary, earthy, dank tones, or something > upbeat, sleek and futurey? (Terrible marketing words, I know...) > Where in the GNOME desktop do you find sleek and futurey looking design/colors? I don't see much metallic sheen in my desktop. I rather like the calm, muted tones - and I know a great deal of others do as well. The website should reflect how the desktop is. > > 2. Reds, Browns, Yellows, dark green, and greyscale seem to be the most > > used colors in gnome artwork. I think the website should reflect this. > > > Where is this "Gnome artwork"? The Foot? The icons? Stuff stuck in our minds > from days gone by? All those browns lead to murky, not perky (good god, now > I'm rhyming) - perhaps we should discuss wider branding ideas with the > Foundation. > Do we want the KDE-style "perky" icons (that some might call overly bright and childish)? I don't know what you mean here. The "days gone by" are the foundation of what GNOME is today. They were a big reason why I started using GNOME in the .30 days (2 or 3 websites ago). I think we should keep on with the subtle and sophisticated look that GNOME has. > > 3. I am partial to continuing in the Tigert tradition for artwork - it > > is the distinctive GNOME feel. > > > "What happens if Linus is run over by a bus?" ==> s/Linus/tigert/ > Lots of people can and have made artwork in the tigert style. A friend of mine made a dozen or so, and I can't tell who made which ones. I think that a style shouldn't be dictated by more than one or two people........otherwise it isn't consistent. > The Gnome look'n'feel is already progressing - see the work on Red Carpet, > Helix Setup Tools, Evolution, Nautilus... Not much brown in there! :D All > the interfaces are going *funky*, not muddy. (My little brother asked if > Gnomes wiped their feet after putting their footprints in the website > background...) > Nautilus' Eazel theme definitely clashes with the rest of GNOME, and I think that is a mistake. Thankfully there are many other themes to use, some of which match rather nicely. I don't think that brown sums up the GNOME look....there are a lot of other colors that GNOME uses currently. I don't see how anything is muddy currently. But I would strongly advise against "funky." > Warm yellows (Helix bubble-buttons) and subtle use of burgundy, with the > light Gnome-feet off-whites as shading is looking interesting. I'll do a > colour comp in a minute. > we'll see......the bubble-buttons seem gratuitus to me, I was hoping that they wouldn't be there in the final version of Red Carpet. > > People should be immediately be able to tell that it is the GNOME > > website, and not something else. > > > That's defintely true - but we can 'remake tradition' at this point too. :) Well, to remake tradition, we would have to redo all of the existing artwork. Personally, I'm not up to the task. I'm sure that people would like to see your (or others') effort in this direction. I don't see how we can brand something when promotional material doesn't match the actual product. --Ryan From jdub@giardia.yourweb.com.au Sat Dec 16 21:48:28 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from giardia.yourweb.com.au (giardia.yourweb.com.au [61.8.3.32]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19DA62D623 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:47:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by giardia.yourweb.com.au (Postfix, from userid 609) id 420DA17E89; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:47:39 +1100 (EST) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:47:39 +1100 From: Jeff Waugh To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001217134739.C32045@giardia.yourweb.com.au> References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001217121446.B32045@giardia.yourweb.com.au> <200012170205.UAA128390@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012170205.UAA128390@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 06:06:50AM +0500 X-Message: Leenooks, Lienucks, Leenoos, Lienus, Let's call the whole thing off. X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.17 i686 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > Where in the GNOME desktop do you find sleek and futurey looking > design/colors? I don't see much metallic sheen in my desktop. All these words are heavily subjective - but there is a strong difference between "subtle" and "murky". The old Gnome site was murky, the new one is bold; it seems that there's interest in a middle-ground. But of desktops? Gnome is flexible enough to allow many styles - mine happens to be what I would call "sleek". Which is why... > The website should reflect how the desktop is. ... I think this is a fallacy - at least if by "reflect" you mean "look like". Gnome desktops are so diverse that choosing a website look'n'feel to integrate with a desktop feel so strongly is almost impossible. I'm not a fan of using desktop icons on the website, except for obvious highlights and cooperative illustration. Using them for navigation, etc., is not a great idea. How many websites reflect the look of their associated GUI? One: Apple's, and because they're so tied to it, because it's so visually strong itself, they can. > Do we want the KDE-style "perky" icons (that some might call overly > bright and childish)? I don't know what you mean here. I think the tigert-style Gnome icons are perky. The tiger shell, the mushroom - that's perk! :D They have a light, fun feeling. KDE's icons are just cardboard cutouts. > > "What happens if Linus is run over by a bus?" ==> s/Linus/tigert/ > > Lots of people can and have made artwork in the tigert style. There was a joke there. :) > Nautilus' Eazel theme definitely clashes with the rest of GNOME, and I > think that is a mistake. 8< snip 8< > we'll see......the bubble-buttons seem gratuitus to me, I was hoping > that they wouldn't be there in the final version of Red Carpet. Changing, progressing. > Well, to remake tradition, we would have to redo all of the existing > artwork. Heh. No, we'll just always have it as an influence on continuing change. The main point here is that the website shouldn't have an incredibly strong binding to the desktop. Different media, different styles, different presentations, etc. It has to work within the context of being a website - if that means being different to the multitudes of looks that our desktops may take, that's fine. - Jeff -- jdub@aphid.net --------------------------------- http://linux.conf.au/ -- ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI. From steve_hall@mindspring.com Sat Dec 16 21:16:43 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D4BD2BAB8 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:16:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4ek.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.212]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA17235 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:16:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <005701c067cf$6492b000$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "Steve Hall" To: Subject: IRC? Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:16:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Say, anybody interested in fleshing out ideas in IRC? Even if nobody's around right now, maybe we could schedule a regular session to hash stuff out. Would that be productive or just promote flameage? Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From steve_hall@mindspring.com Sat Dec 16 21:44:17 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 801E22BAB8 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:44:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4ek.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.212]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA22940 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:44:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <008b01c067d3$3e93ae00$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "Steve Hall" To: Subject: Re: GNOME colors Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:44:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > Ok, now my turn. Try these on: > > http://www.mindspring.com/~steve_hall/gnome/comp-stevehall03.htm > I forgot and uploaded this page with a Times font. I had been going back and forth--try this one for sans-serif (ahh, the beauty of style sheets, huh?): http://www.mindspring.com/~steve_hall/gnome/comp-stevehall02e.htm (Again, this is *not* intended to be a design proposal, just a color test with the icon art.) Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sat Dec 16 22:24:26 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 510712BAAA for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 22:24:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147URL-0004Vy-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 04:24:48 +0100 Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 22:22:14 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001216222214.F21146@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <200012170146.TAA129434@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012170146.TAA129434@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 05:47:32AM +0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 05:47:32AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > I really do think that there is a given palette that people think of > when they think of GNOME. > The Evolution icons still are using reds, greyscale, and yellow, and a > bit of brown, so I don't know what you mean.....they are still > consistent with the previous icons. They're not particularly brown, they're not particularly subdued in color (even using some orange arrows, etc.), and so on. I suggest you take a look at the screenshots. If anything, Tuomas' style is maintained in the style of drawing, not the colors. >> I agree in principle, although I'm not sure it's necessarily a very healthy >> restriction to impose. For instance, the current www.gnome.org site doesn't >> follow the GNOME icon color scheme at all, while the old www.gnome.org site >> did. I think there's little disagreement that the current site is a vast >> improvement over the old one. > well, in some respects yes, but in others, I think it is much > worse. The older websites weren't as fancy, etc, and used tables > poorly, but they got some things right. The blue swoosh things on the > current website are just wastes of screen real estate, and don't match > the normal GNOME colors. The menus are graphics rather than text, which > is not wise for many reasons. Their colors are also odd. The > "Computing Made Easy" slogan I also think is bad. But having a white > background is nice, as it is clean looking. Well, those might be your opinions, but the last redesign was met with roaring approval through all stages of the design, by the entire GNOME marketing group, and considered an improvement in all ways. The idea that adding space (and subsequently making it look better with graphical elements) is a waste of screen realestate is a seriously misguided one, as anyone versed in graphical design will tell you. The slogan was chosen by the GNOME marketing group, which included just about everyone relevant to GNOME marketing at the time, such as Elliot, Miguel, Bart, and quite a few others. To reiterate, you're entitled to your opinions, but it would be unwise to represent them as the one and only truth. > I think that you are ignoring the fact that you can still easily produce > contrast. Those low saturation colors are extremely suitable for things > in the background - muted highlighting, etc. Black and white, and > proper use of reds will give us plenty of contrast. I am by no means > suggesting that we put brown text on a yellow background - that is just > silly. Black text on a white background should be a given. However, I > think that having the "decorative" parts of the site being somewhat > muted is an advantage rather than a disadvantage. It doesn't distract > the user's eyes from the content. This is something that people who > need to get at information appreciate. > How can you buiild brand recognition if the colors/feel you use have > nothing to do with the product? Coca-Cola is black (well, dark brown). Yet, the label and all other marketing is red and white. Pepsi is the same color as coke, but their colors are mainly blues and whites, with some red. Etc. You're confusing the brand and the product, which is detrimental to both. The branding (and subsequently the website) has a completely different set of goals than what the look and feel of the desktop has. I outlined this in the previous mail as well. > I am not suggesting that we organize the site as we would a > desktop. they are two different media. However, I don't think that the > website should influence the desktop either - I don't know how you would > do this in the first place. I think that the "tigert" feel is rather > nice. I am one of those people that use their computer for 10 hours a > day, so I appreciate the aesthetic quality. One ot the reasons I enjoy > using GNOME so much is that it is rather attractive and sophisticated > feeling. If we were to make a "great" GNOME website with magenta and > orange, I would call it a poor GNOME website. In my experience, there > is a difference between a great generic website and a great branded > website. Well, you're not going to be using the website for 10 hours straight, that's my exact point. This is just one of the many ways in which a website differs from a desktop (the others being the goal of using it, the portion of screen realestate it takes up, the context (surfing around versus working), and in short just about everything else). >> In short, I'm fine with using the GNOME icon inspired colors, if we can build >> a great website on it. But I'm not willing to make it the deciding factor in >> what the final site is going to look like. There are other, more important >> priorities. > I just want to make sure that we website actually represents > GNOME. That should be the most important deciding factor. I'm sure you > agree with me.....perhaps we just see different ways of arriving at that > goal. There are plenty of ways a website can represent GNOME. The GNOME project founders and leaders felt that the current website represented GNOME very well, at the time I made it, and it has absolutely zero brown. As I said it before, if you can make a color scheme that uses what you fele are GNOME colors and make it an attractive, professional-looking, sleek site that will appeal to new users and veterans alike, by all means. But I repeat, I will not make it a deciding factor. The quality of the site in general, and the image it projects, is much more important. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sat Dec 16 22:37:29 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 067B22BAAA for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 22:37:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147Udy-00072U-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 04:37:51 +0100 Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 22:35:21 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001216223521.G21146@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001>; from digitect@mindspring.com on Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 09:05:25PM -0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 09:05:25PM -0500, digitect wrote: >> I think there's little disagreement that the current site is a vast >> improvement over the old one. > I'm not sure I would agree. One of the things I first noticed about GNOME > was the softer tone of the web site. I tire of getting hit with primaries > and contrast at every page I go to, and the old GNOME site was a refreshing > change. (No offense intended Joakim, just my preference.) See my mail to Ryan Muldoon for a comprehensive explanation of the background for the current www.gnome.org design. >> Additionally, some of the colors in the GNOME color scheme (especially as >> used on the old site) are plain bad, visually. Low-saturation greyish browns >> are extremely dreary colors (while reducing the contrast of the entire site, >> and thus the readability). There are also different goals for the visual >> design of a desktop people are supposed to use for 10 hours a day, every day, >> and a website that serves as an information and promotion channel for that >> same desktop. Specifically, you have a much shorter time to make and >> impression, so being less subdued (in color use, design, etc.) is necessary >> to capture the user and build brand recognition. > This is *definitely* a matter of aesthetic opinion. What you say is "dreary" > I think is easy on the eyes. Fact is, when you stare at a monitor 10 hours a > day, a slightly lower intensity and contrast is more desirable. (Not too > much of course, just a little.) As mentioned elewhere, you're not going to be staring at the GNOME website for 10 hours every day. Also, please read the literature on the impact of contrast on legibility and comprehension (Nielsen has a few good passages on this). > Also, I don't care about making a visual splash and capturing the casual > visitor to the site through theatrics. GNOME is better. That's why you would > want to use it. Let's make the site *clear*, useful and navigable and let > the user judge for himself whether or not GNOME is better. Sooner or later, > flash runs out of steam, and they'll go on to something else. There's a > saying in architecture: "If you can't make it good, make it big. If you > can't make it big, paint it red." Let's just make it good. If you have a good way of showing people the total spectrum of quality that GNOME represents in the 5-10 seconds a typical user will dedicate to the front page of an average site before he either gets interested or moves on, please let me know. Please do not erect strawman arguments like this. I'm clearly not arguing that we make it good-looking instead of good, I'm saying we do both. > Ok, now my turn. Try these on: > http://www.mindspring.com/~steve_hall/gnome/comp-stevehall03.htm Personally, I find these colors to be awfully bland and boring. Others might disagree. > http://www.mindspring.com/~steve_hall/gnome/comp-stevehall02d.htm (This one > is *not* intended to be a real proposal, just a way of testing icons against > a gray on charcoal scheme.) > The first test comp is obviously neutral. But as you can see from the > developer alternative, with neutrality comes flexibility. If we make the > main GNOME site's colors too strong, the myriad related application and > project sites will have much more of a struggle to maintain/create their own > identity while still incorporating some flavor of the central GNOME site. > Take the current site's "pastels". Anybody else using them? Of course not, > because it's too strong to be identifiable as anything other than the main > site. I don't think it's our goal to make a reusable design framework of some kind, which can be used by any random project site that happens to be related to GNOME. It might be a good idea to have such a framework, to make it easier for GNOME projects to create attractive and presentable web pages without too much work, but that's a separate effort from the main GNOME pages. There are many good reasons for *not* encouraging a spread/bastardization of the design, such as the confusion that would arise, with people potentially confusing random project sites and the main sites, possibly with content whose quality or reliability we can't vounch for, etc. This is known as brand dilution, and is considered a Bad Thing. So let's create this design with the GNOME sites in mind, not with generic project sites, for whose sake we need to be bland and nonintrusive. Gods know it's a big enough job as it is. > I guess I'm trying to say that these pages, like the desktop, is a canvas on > which many projects and applications are painted. It isn't supposed to stand > out, just be a good supporting structure. Let's keep it clear and somewhat > neutral. It can still be kickin if the composition is proportional and we > express style through the subtler things. As I've said countless times, feel free to create a wonderful site design using these colors. I'm still not willing to let the use or non-use of brown become a deciding factor in whether or not a design is "good enough for the GNOME sites". -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From digitect@mindspring.com Sun Dec 17 00:00:36 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23BF52DB51 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 00:00:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4ek.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.212]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA22112; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 00:00:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <013901c067e6$48ab51a0$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: "Joakim Ziegler" , References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001216223521.G21146@helixcode.com> Subject: Re: GNOME colors Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 00:00:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work All right everybody, at the risk of continuing a flamewar, I respectfully submit my rebuttals below... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joakim Ziegler" To: Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 11:35 PM Subject: Re: GNOME colors > On Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 09:05:25PM -0500, digitect wrote: > > >> I think there's little disagreement that the current site is a vast > >> improvement over the old one. > > > I'm not sure I would agree. One of the things I first noticed about GNOME > > was the softer tone of the web site. I tire of getting hit with primaries > > and contrast at every page I go to, and the old GNOME site was a refreshing > > change. (No offense intended Joakim, just my preference.) > > See my mail to Ryan Muldoon for a comprehensive explanation of the background > for the current www.gnome.org design. (which were): "Well, those might be your opinions, but the last redesign was met with roaring approval through all stages of the design, by the entire GNOME marketing group, and considered an improvement in all ways." Several points: 1. The marketing group's opinion is not gospel. I am interested in alternative perspectives, those which do not necessarily play well to the masses and therefore the business/marketing side of things. I'm sure there are many individuals in the GNOME movement that would agree, that's why half of us are here in this alternative OS anyway. 2. I would hardly classify even the most enthusiastic artistic critisizm as "roaring". Really, why are we even talking about re-design if there seems to be general approval for the site as it stands? 3. Aesthetic critique is nothing to get defensive about. Neither Ryan or myself are discussing your artistic sensibilities or talents. I can't speak for him, but I'm just expressing some of the appeal that the old scheme appealed to me. > >> Additionally, some of the colors in the GNOME color scheme (especially as > >> used on the old site) are plain bad, visually. Low-saturation greyish browns > >> are extremely dreary colors (while reducing the contrast of the entire site, > >> and thus the readability). There are also different goals for the visual > >> design of a desktop people are supposed to use for 10 hours a day, every day, > >> and a website that serves as an information and promotion channel for that > >> same desktop. Specifically, you have a much shorter time to make and > >> impression, so being less subdued (in color use, design, etc.) is necessary > >> to capture the user and build brand recognition. > > > This is *definitely* a matter of aesthetic opinion. What you say is "dreary" > > I think is easy on the eyes. Fact is, when you stare at a monitor 10 hours a > > day, a slightly lower intensity and contrast is more desirable. (Not too > > much of course, just a little.) > > As mentioned elewhere, you're not going to be staring at the GNOME website > for 10 hours every day. Also, please read the literature on the impact of > contrast on legibility and comprehension (Nielsen has a few good passages on > this). As you probably know, ultra-high contrast (red on blue for example) is also extremely illegible. So then we must be talking about a balance point somewhere in between, a matter of suitability and appropriateness. To simply say "black on white is correct and nothing else is" fails to appreciate some of the finer subtleties of design, as I'm sure you would agree. What we're all trying to do here is to agree on what is legible and what isn't, not conduct some sort of physiological lightwave rod and cone interface analysis in 4 out of 5 dentists. Indeed, my own comp uses a white background with charcoal text, which I think is perfectly readable. But I'm open for other people's alternative suggestions, too. > > > Also, I don't care about making a visual splash and capturing the casual > > visitor to the site through theatrics. GNOME is better. That's why you would > > want to use it. Let's make the site *clear*, useful and navigable and let > > the user judge for himself whether or not GNOME is better. Sooner or later, > > flash runs out of steam, and they'll go on to something else. There's a > > saying in architecture: "If you can't make it good, make it big. If you > > can't make it big, paint it red." Let's just make it good. > > If you have a good way of showing people the total spectrum of quality that > GNOME represents in the 5-10 seconds a typical user will dedicate to the > front page of an average site before he either gets interested or moves on, > please let me know. > > Please do not erect strawman arguments like this. I'm clearly not arguing > that we make it good-looking instead of good, I'm saying we do both. And I'm not saying that good-looking isn't important either. But it's easy to get enticed by a lot of fancy colors and miss the point. GNOME is about quality and that quality comes through the character and the philosophy that created it. I don't think we should compromise our principles just because it plays well to the 5 second visitor. > > > Ok, now my turn. Try these on: > > > http://www.mindspring.com/~steve_hall/gnome/comp-stevehall03.htm > > Personally, I find these colors to be awfully bland and boring. Others might > disagree. Heh. It's not trying to be exciting, just informative. Roadway signs aren't the most exciting thing I've ever seen either, but they get me to where I'm going. (We all seem to be disagreeing lately, aren't we? But you're entitled.) > > > http://www.mindspring.com/~steve_hall/gnome/comp-stevehall02d.htm (This one > > is *not* intended to be a real proposal, just a way of testing icons against > > a gray on charcoal scheme.) > > > The first test comp is obviously neutral. But as you can see from the > > developer alternative, with neutrality comes flexibility. If we make the > > main GNOME site's colors too strong, the myriad related application and > > project sites will have much more of a struggle to maintain/create their own > > identity while still incorporating some flavor of the central GNOME site. > > Take the current site's "pastels". Anybody else using them? Of course not, > > because it's too strong to be identifiable as anything other than the main > > site. > > I don't think it's our goal to make a reusable design framework of some kind, > which can be used by any random project site that happens to be related to > GNOME. It might be a good idea to have such a framework, to make it easier > for GNOME projects to create attractive and presentable web pages without too > much work, but that's a separate effort from the main GNOME pages. > > There are many good reasons for *not* encouraging a spread/bastardization of > the design, such as the confusion that would arise, with people potentially > confusing random project sites and the main sites, possibly with content > whose quality or reliability we can't vounch for, etc. This is known as brand > dilution, and is considered a Bad Thing. > > So let's create this design with the GNOME sites in mind, not with generic > project sites, for whose sake we need to be bland and nonintrusive. Gods know > it's a big enough job as it is. Wait a second. Have we started selling GNOME lately and nobody told me? Has the GPL been revoked?! I thought that the whole idea behind the GNOME desktop was Free extensibility among as many applications as desire. Since when does the brand of GNOME matter? Let's leave branding up to HelixCode and Eazel, GNOME is more about a philosophy of software development. All I'm saying is that the GNOME web site should have an identifiable *character* and resulting style which is suggested through many subtle (and perhaps some more obvious) artistic vehicles. My point is that these vehicles need to align with the character of the desktop, not be attention-begging flares for a desktop desparate for market share. Truely, if GNOME is the best (and Free) than it can't help but succeed. Again, let's not overstate the point. > > > I guess I'm trying to say that these pages, like the desktop, is a canvas on > > which many projects and applications are painted. It isn't supposed to stand > > out, just be a good supporting structure. Let's keep it clear and somewhat > > neutral. It can still be kickin if the composition is proportional and we > > express style through the subtler things. > > As I've said countless times, feel free to create a wonderful site design > using these colors. I'm still not willing to let the use or non-use of brown > become a deciding factor in whether or not a design is "good enough for the > GNOME sites". > Well, at some point we have to evaluate our interpretations of color. I am fundamentally opposed to a red background, for example. Brown (as you call it), on the other hand, conveys to me the soft-spoken, earthiness of a product that doesn't mind standing on it's own substance and merits. To quote Martha Stewart, "This is a good thing!" It is introverted, which means the visitor has to *ask* questions about GNOME, a sure way to get them *more* involved (as Socrates would tell you). Maybe not quite as many, but definitely a better caliber of folks would stick around. Of course this is all subjective. But that's why we're all talking about this, right? Ok, that's all I have to say. GNOME is a pretty cool thing to me, and has some refreshing qualities that aren't so popular these days. I'm just fighting for a chance to maintain that character in the web site because I care about it. (Oh, and BTW. When you said, "I think this doom metal is making me slightly aggressive. Perhaps I shouldn't listen to this stuff while writing on mailing lists," I think I agree. ;) No hard feelings, Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sun Dec 17 00:36:00 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 244412D713 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 00:35:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147WUf-0001f2-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 06:36:22 +0100 Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 00:33:51 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001217003351.J21146@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001216223521.G21146@helixcode.com> <013901c067e6$48ab51a0$0201a8c0@pc001> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <013901c067e6$48ab51a0$0201a8c0@pc001>; from digitect@mindspring.com on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 12:00:31AM -0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 12:00:31AM -0500, digitect wrote: >> On Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 09:05:25PM -0500, digitect wrote: >> See my mail to Ryan Muldoon for a comprehensive explanation of the >> background for the current www.gnome.org design. > (which were): "Well, those might be your opinions, but the last redesign > was met with > roaring approval through all stages of the design, by the entire GNOME > marketing group, and considered an improvement in all ways." > Several points: > 1. The marketing group's opinion is not gospel. I am interested in > alternative perspectives, those which do not necessarily play well to > the masses and therefore the business/marketing side of things. I'm sure > there are many individuals in the GNOME movement that would agree, > that's why half of us are here in this alternative OS anyway. The marketing group was as close to gospel as you could get at that point. It included both people explicitly working on promoting GNOME, like Bart DeCrem and me, and generally the leaders of the project, such as Miguel, Federico, and Elliot. > 2. I would hardly classify even the most enthusiastic artistic > critisizm as "roaring". Really, why are we even talking about re-design > if there seems to be general approval for the site as it stands? The reactions to the current design were along the lines of "This is a kick-ass website design". But I digress. There are several reasons why we decided to redesign, and thus why we're here. First of all, I wanted a site that was easier to maintain, since my time is somewhat limited. This means that stuff like images for text, although having several advantages, such as compactness, would have to go. Secondly, I want to get rid of WML and Auto*, because it's hard to maintain, and makes it difficult for people to get involved in maintaining the site, again making a lot of maintenance fall on me, instead of on the people who need it done, even though they have CVS access. Additionally, there's the desire to coordinate the look and feel throughout the GNOME sites, which wasn't a consideration originally, and thus the current design isn't made for expanding to, for instance, news.gnome.org. > 3. Aesthetic critique is nothing to get defensive about. Neither Ryan or > myself are discussing your artistic sensibilities or talents. I can't > speak for him, but I'm just expressing some of the appeal that the old > scheme appealed to me. I'm not being defensive. I am, however, pointing out some historical reasons for why the current design is what it is, and they're well worth observing. In particular since one of the stated reasons for that redesign was to, and I quote (don't remember who this was from, might have been Elliot) "Get rid of that horrid brown". >> As mentioned elewhere, you're not going to be staring at the GNOME website >> for 10 hours every day. Also, please read the literature on the impact of >> contrast on legibility and comprehension (Nielsen has a few good passages on >> this). > As you probably know, ultra-high contrast (red on blue for example) is > also extremely illegible. So then we must be talking about a balance > point somewhere in between, a matter of suitability and appropriateness. > To simply say "black on white is correct and nothing else is" fails to > appreciate some of the finer subtleties of design, as I'm sure you would > agree. What we're all trying to do here is to agree on what is legible > and what isn't, not conduct some sort of physiological lightwave rod and > cone interface analysis in 4 out of 5 dentists. Indeed, my own comp uses > a white background with charcoal text, which I think is perfectly > readable. But I'm open for other people's alternative suggestions, too. Red on blue is a simultaneous contrast, and I can't remember proposing that anywhere. Nielsen, for instance, has interesting numbers on the impact of black-or-close text on white-or-close backgrounds on readability, as compared to just about all other combinations. We don't need to do this analysis, since people have already done it for us. > And I'm not saying that good-looking isn't important either. But it's > easy to get enticed by a lot of fancy colors and miss the point. GNOME > is about quality and that quality comes through the character and the > philosophy that created it. I don't think we should compromise our > principles just because it plays well to the 5 second visitor. I don't think we have a "principle" that would be compromised if we used a certain set of colors over another. I want that 5 second visitor. There are a lot of them. We want to reach them, we want to pull them in, we want to show them what GNOME is about. >> Personally, I find these colors to be awfully bland and boring. Others >> might disagree. > Heh. It's not trying to be exciting, just informative. Roadway signs > aren't the most exciting thing I've ever seen either, but they get me to > where I'm going. (We all seem to be disagreeing lately, aren't we? But > you're entitled.) Most color schemes get you where you're going. Of that rather large set, it's a matter of choosing the one that has the most additional advantages, like being attractive, immediately appealing, etc. >> There are many good reasons for *not* encouraging a >> spread/bastardization of >> the design, such as the confusion that would arise, with people >> potentially >> confusing random project sites and the main sites, possibly with >> content >> whose quality or reliability we can't vounch for, etc. This is known >> as brand >> dilution, and is considered a Bad Thing. >> So let's create this design with the GNOME sites in mind, not with >> generic >> project sites, for whose sake we need to be bland and nonintrusive. >> Gods know >> it's a big enough job as it is. > Wait a second. Have we started selling GNOME lately and nobody told me? > Has the GPL been revoked?! I thought that the whole idea behind the > GNOME desktop was Free extensibility among as many applications as > desire. Since when does the brand of GNOME matter? Let's leave branding > up to HelixCode and Eazel, GNOME is more about a philosophy of software > development. Branding/marketing and freedom are not mutually exclusive. Indeed, freedom matters little if few people know that they can have it, and crave it. The GNOME Foundation charter states rather specifically: Public Image and Voice ----------------------- The foundation will be the principal entity with the ability to make official public statements for GNOME, such as press releases. The foundation will also be responsible for maintaining the "GNOME brand," and will have to determine the appropriate uses of the associated trademarks. The foundation will also be a hub for joint-marketing efforts by those organizations (corporate and non) which want to make GNOME-related announcements. Regional groups, created to promote GNOME in specific areas, may wish to make their own announcements about their efforts. Leaving branding and marketing up to companies are not an option. I love Helix Code, it's why I work for it, but I wouldn't want marketing and branding of GNOME to be handed over to Helix Code or any other corporate entity. It's far too important for that. > All I'm saying is that the GNOME web site should have an identifiable > *character* and resulting style which is suggested through many subtle > (and perhaps some more obvious) artistic vehicles. My point is that > these vehicles need to align with the character of the desktop, not be > attention-begging flares for a desktop desparate for market share. > Truely, if GNOME is the best (and Free) than it can't help but succeed. > Again, let's not overstate the point. I know what you're saying. I just think that the desktop and web site are sufficiently different in target audience, goals, medium and usage patterns that it's completely responsible to not maintain a very strong visual consistency between the two. Additionally, there's no such thing as assured success for the best contender, as shown by many real life examples, but that's a different discussion. I just think "GNOME is best anyway, so it doesn't need marketing" (or arguments of that nature) are rather missing the point entirely. >>> As I've said countless times, feel free to create a wonderful site >>> design >>> using these colors. I'm still not willing to let the use or non-use of >>> brown >>> become a deciding factor in whether or not a design is "good enough >>> for the >>> GNOME sites". > Well, at some point we have to evaluate our interpretations of color. I > am fundamentally opposed to a red background, for example. Brown (as you > call it), on the other hand, conveys to me the soft-spoken, earthiness > of a product that doesn't mind standing on it's own substance and > merits. To quote Martha Stewart, "This is a good thing!" It is > introverted, which means the visitor has to *ask* questions about GNOME, > a sure way to get them *more* involved (as Socrates would tell you). > Maybe not quite as many, but definitely a better caliber of folks would > stick around. Of course this is all subjective. But that's why we're all > talking about this, right? Actually, it's not entirely subjective, although it's taken a rather subjective turn. There are in fact very well accepted theories of color that deal with what sort of message and feel certain colors convey (although this isn't global, it's fairly uniform in the western hemisphere, at least. Let's not get into design and color choice for maximum market impact worldwide, it's the realm of million-dollar consulting companies.) And yes, an approach like that would certainly attract a certain group of users. But we're really talking mass-market appeal here, especially for the main www.gnome.org site. We're charged with an extremely important responsibility, namely to be the GNOME project's face to the world, and to be the main gate through which the project recruits both new users, developers and supporters. There is significant strength in numbers, and I don't want to lose a single one of those potential users because our chosen design appeals to "a better caliber of folks". There seems to be some conception that we're mainly making a set of sites for developers. We're not. Developers are important, they get their part of the site, but GNOME is just about ready to go onto the mass market of desktops, and to take on Windows directly. That's what this is about, offering a high-quality, free alternative to all those average users out there. > Ok, that's all I have to say. GNOME is a pretty cool thing to me, and > has some refreshing qualities that aren't so popular these days. I'm > just fighting for a chance to maintain that character in the web site > because I care about it. I think there are many ways to convey GNOME's character through the graphical design, feel and content of the website. Assuming that we have to use the same colors on the web site as are prevalent in the icons (which make up a very small area of the desktop) to do so is in my opinion an extremely simplistic view. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From cox@idecnet.com Sun Dec 17 08:44:19 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp.wanadoo.es (unknown [62.36.220.21]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7E912DC02 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 08:44:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from sapiens.idecnet.com (usuario1-37-143-140.dialup.uni2.es [62.37.143.140]) by smtp.wanadoo.es (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id eBHDiF413309; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:44:16 +0100 (MET) Received: from idecnet.com (cox@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sapiens.idecnet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA02638; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:44:13 +0100 Message-ID: <3A3CC32C.1FF011DA@idecnet.com> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:44:12 +0100 From: "Tomas V.V.Cox" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.13 i586) X-Accept-Language: es-ES, Spanish/Spain, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ryan Muldoon Cc: Joakim Ziegler , gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: 2. Audience (was Re: Design document [Draft 1]) References: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Ryan Muldoon wrote: > > My thoughts (for now) are about sections 2 and 3: > > > > > 2. Audience and goals > > > > The GNOME websites span a rather large range of audiences (and corresponding > > goals), including users, developers, members of the press, representatives of > > companies considering supporting GNOME, and so on. The goals can be broken > > down as follows: > > > > I think one of the main goals should be the issue of integrating new > members of the GNOME community. What I mean by this is encouraging > people to get involved in improving GNOME. The best way to accelerate > the rate of improvement of GNOME is to get more people involved. > Perhaps we can do an user oriented navigation structure. | | Desktop users | Developers | Press | Bussiness | |----------------------------------------------------------------- | (Contents Bar)| | What is Gnome | | other | | other | | other | | other | If I am a delevoper, the "Contents Bar" should have all the links related to developers with Gnome (How to get involved, cvs instructions, devel doc, etc). In each "web site user" section could appear a link to get involved (for ex: Desktop users => do translations, mantain web site; Developers => apps; Press => talk about Gnome, join the press list; Biz => put money :) Cheers, Tomas V.V.Cox From digitect@mindspring.com Sun Dec 17 10:37:18 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F41A2BB19 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:37:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf2u6.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.139.198]) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA14327 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:37:17 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <000f01c0683f$3c45a740$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001216223521.G21146@helixcode.com> <013901c067e6$48ab51a0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217003351.J21146@helixcode.com> Subject: Re: GNOME colors Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:37:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Maybe we're not too far apart... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joakim Ziegler" Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2000 1:33 AM Subject: Re: GNOME colors > In particular since one of the stated reasons for that redesign was to, and I > quote (don't remember who this was from, might have been Elliot) "Get rid of > that horrid brown". Ok, so some hate brown, some like it for traditional reasons. I can agree that it doesn't sparkle. If it ends up going, so be it. I just thought since it is somewhat part of the brand identity for historical reasons, it might be good to at least maintain it in an accent color. > Actually, [color is] not entirely subjective, although it's taken a rather > subjective turn. There are in fact very well accepted theories of color that > deal with what sort of message and feel certain colors convey (although this > isn't global, it's fairly uniform in the western hemisphere, at least. Let's > not get into design and color choice for maximum market impact worldwide, > it's the realm of million-dollar consulting companies.) Well, as an American I can easily agree with this strategy. But it' very appealing to me that GNOME is so international. I always thought the earth tones used in the past came from some sort of Mexican/South American tradition. Not trying to stir the pot again, but I for one, was interpreting the color from an alternative perspective and it was appealing that way. I, too, have studied tons of color theory (Joseph Albers, Mondrian and friends) but in the end it's going to come down to somebody's subjective decision. > I think there are many ways to convey GNOME's character through the graphical > design, feel and content of the website. Assuming that we have to use the > same colors on the web site as are prevalent in the icons (which make up a > very small area of the desktop) to do so is in my opinion an extremely > simplistic view. Maybe you misunderstand my verbosities. I'm not if favor of using a color scheme based *on* the icons. I think the site should be neutral. That's Neutral, as in hue-less, or minimally. Then the art from the desktop can stand out. Of course I understand your hesitancy to depend on the desktop art given it's current dormant state of development. But I'm interested in seeing that prosper, too, in fact, more so than the web site. So maybe I'm on the wrong list, but I think both can and should work together to benefit from the synergy. It's a clever way to take advantage of the spartan volunteer work force. > I want that 5 second visitor. There are a lot of them. We want to reach them, > we want to pull them in, we want to show them what GNOME is about. You and me both. We just have to figure out how to do that. > Leaving branding and marketing up to companies are not an option. I love > Helix Code, it's why I work for it, but I wouldn't want marketing and > branding of GNOME to be handed over to Helix Code or any other corporate > entity. It's far too important for that. I agree. GNOME needs to stand on its own. And I do want it to have it's own identity, distinct from anybody else out there. But I see it as more of a family, not a singular product brand. But maybe I'm not thinking broadly about it enough. > And yes, an approach like that would certainly attract a certain group of > users. But we're really talking mass-market appeal here, especially for the > main www.gnome.org site. We're charged with an extremely important > responsibility, namely to be the GNOME project's face to the world, and to be > the main gate through which the project recruits both new users, developers > and supporters. There is significant strength in numbers, and I don't want to > lose a single one of those potential users because our chosen design appeals > to "a better caliber of folks". I agree. > There seems to be some conception that we're mainly making a set of sites for > developers. We're not. Developers are important, they get their part of the > site, but GNOME is just about ready to go onto the mass market of desktops, > and to take on Windows directly. That's what this is about, offering a > high-quality, free alternative to all those average users out there. Yes, I think the site is currently far too skewed towards the developers. Or rather, I should say that I just don't think there's enough accomodation to the new user. That's why I'm in favor of splitting content right down the middle and have proposed a structure around this scheme. Users need the front end and it needs to be far better than what we currently have. From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sun Dec 17 13:54:41 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC7B62BE08 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:54:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147ixh-0006BO-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 19:55:10 +0100 Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:52:36 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001217135236.A28998@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001216223521.G21146@helixcode.com> <013901c067e6$48ab51a0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217003351.J21146@helixcode.com> <000f01c0683f$3c45a740$0201a8c0@pc001> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <000f01c0683f$3c45a740$0201a8c0@pc001>; from digitect@mindspring.com on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 10:37:16AM -0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 10:37:16AM -0500, digitect wrote: >> In particular since one of the stated reasons for that redesign was to, and >> I quote (don't remember who this was from, might have been Elliot) "Get rid of >> that horrid brown". > Ok, so some hate brown, some like it for traditional reasons. I can agree that > it doesn't sparkle. If it ends up going, so be it. I just thought since it is > somewhat part of the brand identity for historical reasons, it might be good > to at least maintain it in an accent color. I think there are ways to retain the image in the colors without preserving that specific brown. I'll write a message about this with a color comp of my own after I finish this message. >> Actually, [color is] not entirely subjective, although it's taken a rather >> subjective turn. There are in fact very well accepted theories of color that >> deal with what sort of message and feel certain colors convey (although this >> isn't global, it's fairly uniform in the western hemisphere, at least. Let's >> not get into design and color choice for maximum market impact worldwide, >> it's the realm of million-dollar consulting companies.) > Well, as an American I can easily agree with this strategy. But it' very > appealing to me that GNOME is so international. I always thought the earth > tones used in the past came from some sort of Mexican/South American > tradition. Not that I'm aware of, at least not consciously. Anyway, from my understanding, it seems that it's Asia that's the joker in the color symbolism deck, most of the western hemisphere has a rather similar culture when it comes to this. > Not trying to stir the pot again, but I for one, was interpreting > the color from an alternative perspective and it was appealing that way. I, > too, have studied tons of color theory (Joseph Albers, Mondrian and friends) > but in the end it's going to come down to somebody's subjective decision. Definitely. I hope it ends up being a clear majority decision, though. I also have the feeling that disagreement might be larger during a discussion than when people actually sit down and look at different suggestions. >> I think there are many ways to convey GNOME's character through the >> graphical >> design, feel and content of the website. Assuming that we have to use the >> same colors on the web site as are prevalent in the icons (which make up a >> very small area of the desktop) to do so is in my opinion an extremely >> simplistic view. > Maybe you misunderstand my verbosities. I'm not if favor of using a color > scheme based *on* the icons. I think the site should be neutral. That's > Neutral, as in hue-less, or minimally. Then the art from the desktop can stand > out. Of course I understand your hesitancy to depend on the desktop art given > it's current dormant state of development. But I'm interested in seeing that > prosper, too, in fact, more so than the web site. So maybe I'm on the wrong > list, but I think both can and should work together to benefit from the > synergy. It's a clever way to take advantage of the spartan volunteer work > force. I hope so too. It seems to me that when a new, fresh piece of design that doesn't rely overly on the existing corpus gets injected into the mix, the totality benefits. It's like including outside DNA into an overly homogenic gene pool, which has become somewhat stagnant; it promotes change and development, and tends towards a new equilibrium. I know some people have considered some of the icon and other graphics work Tuomas has done at Helix Code to be inspiration in this manner (it has more of a Helix look than the traditional GNOME look), and I hope the a web site that does new things, while still respecting its origins, can have the same sort of effect. >> Leaving branding and marketing up to companies are not an option. I love >> Helix Code, it's why I work for it, but I wouldn't want marketing and >> branding of GNOME to be handed over to Helix Code or any other corporate >> entity. It's far too important for that. > I agree. GNOME needs to stand on its own. And I do want it to have it's own > identity, distinct from anybody else out there. But I see it as more of a > family, not a singular product brand. But maybe I'm not thinking broadly about > it enough. Well, you're right in some respects. This is one of the reasons I'm a little afraid of relying too much on the desktop imagery. While the desktop environment is an important part of GNOME, it's also the part that gets the most attention (because it's easiest to get a concept of). But GNOME is a lot more than the desktop (in fact, the desktop is kind of a coincidence). It's difficult to brand something this large and diverse. I'm hoping we can succeed by being fairly abstract in our approach. Possibly, we'll just have to say "this is what we want GNOME to be associated with", instead of "what is it people associate GNOME with?", because people's perceptions at the moment are very varied. I'm doing a color comp right now, which is a little bolder than the things that have been proposed so far, yet, I think, might be a pleasant surprise. More of that in a little while. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sun Dec 17 14:53:09 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A34F92BAC0 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:53:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147jsI-0001Ln-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 20:53:38 +0100 Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:51:05 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001217145105.B28998@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com>; from joakim@helixcode.com on Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 04:36:43PM -0600 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work So I thought I'd say a little about what the color associations I get from GNOME are. To me, the keyword is probably "warm". GNOME is very close, personal, it ties stuff together. I'm associating rather freely here, this is more or less a brain dump of a non-verbal part of my brain, so bear with me. Lush, rich, warm colors, with perhaps a little dust, like when sun filters through dusty air inside a library building on a warm summer day. The colors of fine wood, old leather, finely printed books, warm sand, cream, spices, and so on. This probably sounds weird, but I have a very emotional approach to choosing colors and doing design. Others might not. Anyway, with these associations in mind, I sat down and made a little color comp. It has six base colors, with four variations of each. I didn't add black to this set of comps, since it's kind of a given. I think this palette isn't too far, conseptually, from the colors people associate with GNOME traditionally, in that they're all slightly "dusty" and subdued, but they're also a little bit bolder and stronger than the typical grayish browns. I didn't make any mockup design of a webpage, since I think that tends to distract a little from the colors themselves, at this stage. I think it's great that we're actually *thinking* about colors this time, since color choice the last time (and, I suspect, also the first time) was somewhat of a haphazard process. Anyway, see what you think: http://www.avmaria.com/gnome-color-proposal-1.png -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From digitect@mindspring.com Sun Dec 17 14:53:51 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6042B2BAC0 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:53:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf2rd.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.139.109]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA24563 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:53:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <002101c06863$13772400$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001216223521.G21146@helixcode.com> <013901c067e6$48ab51a0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217003351.J21146@helixcode.com> <000f01c0683f$3c45a740$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217135236.A28998@helixcode.com> Subject: Re: GNOME colors Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:53:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > From: "Joakim Ziegler" > Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2000 2:52 PM > > It's difficult to brand something this large and diverse. I'm hoping we can > succeed by being fairly abstract in our approach. Possibly, we'll just have > to say "this is what we want GNOME to be associated with", instead of "what > is it people associate GNOME with?", because people's perceptions at the > moment are very varied. Yeah, I was starting to think that too, back when we were talking about brand v. family of products. Would we go so far as to consider the web site one of the products? Then it can sort of take on a character of it's own, appropriate for the audiences your draft discusses. From digitect@mindspring.com Sun Dec 17 19:38:43 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (granger.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.148]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 143862BAE9 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 19:38:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf318.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.140.40]) by granger.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA17267 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 19:38:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <003901c0688a$defbe6c0$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: Subject: Re: GNOME colors Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 19:38:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > From: "Joakim Ziegler" > Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2000 3:51 PM > To me, the keyword is probably "warm". . . . Lush, rich, > warm colors, with perhaps a little dust, like when sun filters through dusty > air inside a library building on a warm summer day. The colors of fine wood, > old leather, finely printed books, warm sand, cream, spices, and so on. I'm warm, too, but outside. Meadows in late spring/early summer, new green shoots, dry earth, dandelions. > I think this palette isn't too far, conceptually, from the > colors people associate with GNOME traditionally, in that they're all > slightly "dusty" and subdued, but they're also a little bit bolder and > stronger than the typical grayish browns. True. > I think it's great that we're actually *thinking* about colors this time, > since color choice the last time (and, I suspect, also the first time) was > somewhat of a haphazard process. This is definitely a good process. I like how your moderating us to components, not entire mockups. I wasn't expecting us to be this disciplined. I think this is letting us get to a deeper understanding of what GNOME is, was, and should be. Of course, once the iterative part is finished . . . > > Anyway, see what you think: > > http://www.avmaria.com/gnome-color-proposal-1.png (All right, whoever's been watching from the curb thus far, say you didn't expect me to make a counter proposal. ;) I agree with Joakim steering clear of the blues. I think I could also settle for bolder if I had to, but I'm still not quite convinced. What if we backed off on the saturation a bit and leaned more green/yellow than red? Besides being a pretty popular palette these days, I think it also says GNOME: http://www.mindspring.com/~digitect/gnome/colors-stevehall-01.png Anyone else care to chime in with opinions of colors? Joakim and I have been preaching at each other for quite a few exchanges but I hope we haven't scared everybody else off. I'll try to keep it down a little until next weekend. Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sun Dec 17 20:08:13 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6929F2BAE9 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 20:08:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147onE-0007LW-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 02:08:44 +0100 Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 20:06:10 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001217200610.A29998@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <003901c0688a$defbe6c0$0201a8c0@pc001> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <003901c0688a$defbe6c0$0201a8c0@pc001>; from digitect@mindspring.com on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 07:38:41PM -0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 07:38:41PM -0500, digitect wrote: >> From: "Joakim Ziegler" >> Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2000 3:51 PM >> I think it's great that we're actually *thinking* about colors this time, >> since color choice the last time (and, I suspect, also the first time) was >> somewhat of a haphazard process. > This is definitely a good process. I like how your moderating us to components, > not entire mockups. I wasn't expecting us to be this disciplined. I think this > is letting us get to a deeper understanding of what GNOME is, was, and should > be. Of course, once the iterative part is finished . . . I'm mainly trying to eliminate noise. A good color scheme could easily be lost if it was presented in a too quickly done mockup of a web site, or the other way around. I'm happy people like this way of working, as it makes it easy to concentrate on one thing at a time. >> Anyway, see what you think: >> http://www.avmaria.com/gnome-color-proposal-1.png > (All right, whoever's been watching from the curb thus far, say you didn't > expect me to make a counter proposal. ;) I agree with Joakim steering clear of > the blues. I think I could also settle for bolder if I had to, but I'm still not > quite convinced. What if we backed off on the saturation a bit and leaned more > green/yellow than red? Besides being a pretty popular palette these days, I > think it also says GNOME: > http://www.mindspring.com/~digitect/gnome/colors-stevehall-01.png Not bad, although I feel that "the bottom fell out", for lack of a better term, in that all of the colors seem to have a lot of white in them. I like the brown, though. Your yellow has a lot of green in it, which makes it seem a little cold for my taste. What do you know. You're a spring, I'm an autumn. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From webmaven@lvcm.com Mon Dec 18 01:16:38 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams1.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.75]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 046D82DC09 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 01:16:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.192.168]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Sun, 17 Dec 2000 22:20:30 -0800 Message-ID: <3A3DCA08.83084BDF@lvcm.com> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 00:25:44 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001216223521.G21146@helixcode.com> <013901c067e6$48ab51a0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217003351.J21146@helixcode.com> <000f01c0683f$3c45a740$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217135236.A28998@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > It's difficult to brand something this large and diverse. I'm hoping we can > succeed by being fairly abstract in our approach. Possibly, we'll just have > to say "this is what we want GNOME to be associated with", instead of "what > is it people associate GNOME with?", because people's perceptions at the > moment are very varied. Joakim, Has anyone on the 'GNOME marketing commitee' ever created a positioning statement for GNOME? A positioning statement, for those of you on the list who may not have heard the term before, is simply a description of how you would like to be perceived by your prospects. It shouldn't be confused with your position, which is a description of how you actually ARE perceived. A positioning statement can be created quite simply by answering seven questions: Who: Who are you? What: What business are you in? For whom: What people do you serve? What need: What are the special needs of the people you serve? Against whom: With whom are you competing? What's different: What makes you different form those competitors? So: What's the benefit? What unique benefit does a customer derive from you? To illustrate, take Bloomingdale's as an example: (Who) "Bloomingdale's (What) are fashion-focused department stores (For whom) for trend-conscious, upper-middle class shoppers (What need) looking for high-end products. Unlike (Against whom) other department stores, Bloomingdale's (What's different) provides unique merchandise in a theatrical setting (So) that makes shopping entertaining." Of the seven questions, the trickiest is number five 'What's different?'. This is where people try to cram in everything but the kitchen sink. When trying to define your position in the marketplace (especially the marketplace of ideas), you must choose the one thing that makes you different from your competitors, and not try to say you are all things to all people. So, has anyone ever done this for GNOME? Michael Bernstein. From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Mon Dec 18 01:38:34 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAF002DC09 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 01:38:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147twy-0002Y8-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 07:39:08 +0100 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 01:36:33 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001218013633.B29998@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <20001217145105.B28998@helixcode.com> <200012172013.OAA55914@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012172013.OAA55914@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 12:14:14AM +0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 12:14:14AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: >> To me, the keyword is probably "warm". GNOME is very close, personal, it ties >> stuff together. I'm associating rather freely here, this is more or less a >> brain dump of a non-verbal part of my brain, so bear with me. Lush, rich, >> warm colors, with perhaps a little dust, like when sun filters through dusty >> air inside a library building on a warm summer day. The colors of fine wood, >> old leather, finely printed books, warm sand, cream, spices, and so on. > I definitely agree here. > My comments on the color comp are as follows: > 1. overall, very nice > 2. the orange seems out of place - too bright > 3. I really like the cream colors, for accent > 4. the salmon color (up and to the left of orange) seems a little off > too It's mainly intended as a draft palette, so at least small adjustments should be expected. The orange might indeed be a little bright, but I'd like to have an orange in there, it's an incredibly versatile color, and used correctly, it can be very nice (it's probably a bit much in a square block like it is on the palette). > 5. the top row, if used, should only be used sparingly Yes, the top row was mainly intended for those cases where you'd need a brighter color, like, say, if you're doing a beveled frame on one of the colors, or for other such highlight purposes. > I like the darker colors in the last row...perhaps we can experiment > with using these for header text, or bolder accent lines. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Mon Dec 18 01:41:32 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D1512DC46 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 01:41:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147tzp-0002DV-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 07:42:06 +0100 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 01:39:30 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001218013930.C29998@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001216223521.G21146@helixcode.com> <013901c067e6$48ab51a0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217003351.J21146@helixcode.com> <000f01c0683f$3c45a740$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217135236.A28998@helixcode.com> <3A3DCA08.83084BDF@lvcm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A3DCA08.83084BDF@lvcm.com>; from webmaven@lvcm.com on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 12:25:44AM -0800 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 12:25:44AM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: > Joakim Ziegler wrote: >> It's difficult to brand something this large and diverse. I'm hoping we can >> succeed by being fairly abstract in our approach. Possibly, we'll just have >> to say "this is what we want GNOME to be associated with", instead of "what >> is it people associate GNOME with?", because people's perceptions at the >> moment are very varied. > Has anyone on the 'GNOME marketing commitee' ever created a > positioning statement for GNOME? Not as far as I know. At least not as such. I think the information exists, and the answers to the questions are likely very similar wihtin at least the core community. Actually, a lot of them are answered in places such as the foundation charter. However, it's a good idea to have one. I don't feel that we have the mandate to create one, though, but it might be worthwhile to raise the issue with the board. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From Peteris_Krisjanis@elkogroup.com Mon Dec 18 01:45:43 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lotus3.elkogroup.com (lotus3.elkogroup.com [194.9.175.53]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92DC32DC46 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 01:45:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: IRC? To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.3 (Intl) 21 March 2000 Message-ID: From: Peteris_Krisjanis@elkogroup.com Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 08:46:21 +0200 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on lotus3/ELKOGROUP/LV(Release 5.0.5 |September 22, 2000) at 12/18/2000 08:46:25 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Yeah, I think it would be useful, because for synchronization of opinions we generating gigantic amount of mails (sometimes) ;))) Only thing we must choose is time and place... Peteris Krisjanis. From jdub@aphid.net Mon Dec 18 03:57:18 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail005.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail005.syd.optusnet.com.au [203.2.75.229]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC29E2CB0B for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 03:57:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (sdcax53-026.dialup.optusnet.com.au [198.142.207.26]) by mail005.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBI8ttK12626 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 19:55:55 +1100 Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 026783E95; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 19:57:16 +1100 (EST) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 19:57:16 +1100 From: Jeff Waugh To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: IRC? Message-ID: <20001218195716.P6829@aphid.net> Mail-Followup-To: Jeff Waugh , gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from Peteris_Krisjanis@elkogroup.com on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 08:46:21AM +0200 X-Message: Leenooks, Lienucks, Leenoos, Lienus, Let's call the whole thing off. X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.0-test11 i686 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > Yeah, I think it would be useful, because for synchronization of opinions > we generating gigantic amount of mails (sometimes) ;))) > > Only thing we must choose is time and place... As always, on irc.gnome.org in #webgeeks. There's usually a couple of us there bitching about . :) - Jeff -- jdub@aphid.net --------------------------------- http://linux.conf.au/ -- ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI. From webmaven@lvcm.com Mon Dec 18 10:15:27 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams3.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.77]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A35E52D2AD for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 10:15:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.192.168]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Mon, 18 Dec 2000 07:16:21 -0800 Message-ID: <3A3E485C.3EB53192@lvcm.com> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 09:24:44 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001216223521.G21146@helixcode.com> <013901c067e6$48ab51a0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217003351.J21146@helixcode.com> <000f01c0683f$3c45a740$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217135236.A28998@helixcode.com> <3A3DCA08.83084BDF@lvcm.com> <20001218013930.C29998@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 12:25:44AM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: > > Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > >> It's difficult to brand something this large and diverse. I'm hoping we can > >> succeed by being fairly abstract in our approach. Possibly, we'll just have > >> to say "this is what we want GNOME to be associated with", instead of "what > >> is it people associate GNOME with?", because people's perceptions at the > >> moment are very varied. > > > Has anyone on the 'GNOME marketing commitee' ever created a > > positioning statement for GNOME? > > Not as far as I know. At least not as such. I think the information exists, > and the answers to the questions are likely very similar wihtin at least the > core community. Actually, a lot of them are answered in places such as the > foundation charter. > > However, it's a good idea to have one. I don't feel that we have the mandate > to create one, though, but it might be worthwhile to raise the issue with the > board. I've frequently found that going through the excersize of creating one then makes look-and-feel decisions a lot simpler. All you have to ask is which alternative expresses the positioning that you want better. That answer will be different for different mediums, but the message will still be consistent, even if it's expression isn't. Michael Bernstein. From ulf@obsession.se Mon Dec 18 18:51:12 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from musse.tninet.se (musse.tninet.se [195.100.94.12]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E0A6F2BB95 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 18:51:11 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 11831 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2000 00:51:10 +0100 Received: from delenn.tninet.se (HELO algonet.se) (195.100.94.104) by musse.tninet.se with SMTP; 19 Dec 2000 00:51:10 +0100 Received: from obsession.se (sdu88-247.ppp.algonet.se [195.163.247.88]) by delenn.tninet.se (BLUETAIL Mail Robustifier 2.2.1) with ESMTP id 477170.183469.977delenn-s1 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:51:09 +0100 Message-ID: <3A3FF490.6B0D01C6@obsession.se> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:51:44 +0100 From: Ulf Pettersson Reply-To: ulf@obsession.se Organization: Obsession Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: On colour Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work I have followed your discussion around colour for sometime now. Your proposals include too many too diverse colours. This last picture: http://www.mindspring.com/~digitect/gnome/colors-stevehall-01.png includes about 9 different hues. Some of them are more or less complimentary while others are quite close. All in all, they cannot (and do not) match. All expression is based on relationsships between differences and similarities and if you include colours in a almost random way it is hard to get meaning across (unless visual uncertainty/randomness itself is the point). Basically, choose colours in a way that give them a clear relationship; either they may be close in hue(i generally don't like that) or they may be complimentary (opposite in hue) (i tend to choose color more in that way, most other designers seem to as well). The point is that you have to have a some sort of 'drama' in your colour selection or it will not be effective. For example, a drama is cleary created between reds and greens, but if you also add blues and yellows the effect is lost. I'd advise you restrict yourselves to two (possibly three) main colors for major graphic elements, excluding black and white. If you want more colours, create subtle variantions from one or two of the ones you have chosen. If we look at the picture above: If you remove the last three columns from the picture (yellow, blue, green), I would say you have a good set of colours to work with (other combinations are possible). I like the colour-scheme of Gnome. At least compared to the design of most free software. Too me the Gnome colour scheme seems a very strong element of the Gnome brand and it would be a shame to loose it (without a clearly superior alternative). To me it is also obvious that the site should reflect the colours of the desktop. Every major non-free, consumer OS uses their desktops visual appearance in their branding (MacOS, BeOS and Windows increasingly), and they are right about it. I dont think the Gnome icons or the Gnome colour-scheme are that great. They are a little too murky, too similar in colour and the icons are sometimes somewhat poorly rendered. But for free software they are really not bad. I really detest the look of KDE. It looks unprofessional, childish and hackerish in a bad (non-elegant) sense. Between KDE and Gnome, Gnome _looks_ like a much more though-over and professional environment. Largely because of its icons, other graphic details and the subtle and consistent colour-scale. I'd hate to flame anyone but the current design of the Gnome site (front page) does not really suit my taste (or professional opinion). Mostly because it is hard to read, too diffucult to understand where to click and has too much graphics but also because the colours (bright pink, blue and green) make me think of My Little Pony or icecream and are not consistent with the Gnome colours. I think the previous site was better (as I remember it) and was surprised by the change, which was a step in the opposite direction of most website design (where flexibility, utility, useability, download speed and design elements well adjusted for the web are gaining ground). Ulf Pettersson Designer From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Mon Dec 18 20:11:24 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7924A2BDE9 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 20:11:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148BK1-00072c-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 02:12:06 +0100 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 20:07:33 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: On colour Message-ID: <20001218200733.D868@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <3A3FF490.6B0D01C6@obsession.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A3FF490.6B0D01C6@obsession.se>; from ulf@obsession.se on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 12:51:44AM +0100 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 12:51:44AM +0100, Ulf Pettersson wrote: > Your proposals include too many too diverse colours. > This last picture: > http://www.mindspring.com/~digitect/gnome/colors-stevehall-01.png > includes about 9 different hues. Some of them are more or less complimentary > while others are quite close. All in all, they cannot (and do not) match. All > expression is based on relationsships between differences and similarities and > if you include colours in a almost random way it is hard to get meaning across > (unless visual uncertainty/randomness itself is the point). > Basically, choose colours in a way that give them a clear relationship; either > they may be close in hue(i generally don't like that) or they may be > complimentary (opposite in hue) (i tend to choose color more in that way, most > other designers seem to as well). The point is that you have to have a some sort > of 'drama' in your colour selection or it will not be effective. For example, a > drama is cleary created between reds and greens, but if you also add blues and > yellows the effect is lost. > I'd advise you restrict yourselves to two (possibly three) main colors for major > graphic elements, excluding black and white. If you want more colours, create > subtle variantions from one or two of the ones you have chosen. If we look at > the picture above: If you remove the last three columns from the picture > (yellow, blue, green), I would say you have a good set of colours to work with > (other combinations are possible). There's definitely the possibility of restricting ourselves to fewer colors, specifically the number of colors used on a single page. I think it would be good to have a number of colors in an "official palette" to choose from, though, especially since the site design might call for such things as color-coding sections. I can't speak for Steve Hall's proposal, but mine included 5 different hues, with brightness/saturation variations for each. This is definitely not too many, given the circumstances above. > I like the colour-scheme of Gnome. At least compared to the design of most free > software. Too me the Gnome colour scheme seems a very strong element of the > Gnome brand and it would be a shame to loose it (without a clearly superior > alternative). To me it is also obvious that the site should reflect the colours > of the desktop. Every major non-free, consumer OS uses their desktops visual > appearance in their branding (MacOS, BeOS and Windows increasingly), and they > are right about it. I think this is misguided for several reasons (as I believe I've pointed out earlier in this thread). First of all, GNOME is a lot more than just a desktop, and the desktop is what gets the most attention as it is, so it might be good to try to balance this a bit more. Secondly, a desktop and a web site are so different media that it would be a bad idea to try to unify them too much (Apple were only able to unify their web site and desktop after they turned the desktop into a visual circus of useless chrome, which has received more or less unanimous bad reviews from usability experts, and I don't see how Microsoft's site picks up too much of Windows' look at all). > I dont think the Gnome icons or the Gnome colour-scheme are that great. They are > a little too murky, too similar in colour and the icons are sometimes somewhat > poorly rendered. But for free software they are really not bad. I really detest > the look of KDE. It looks unprofessional, childish and hackerish in a bad > (non-elegant) sense. Between KDE and Gnome, Gnome _looks_ like a much more > though-over and professional environment. Largely because of its icons, other > graphic details and the subtle and consistent colour-scale. I agree, the GNOME icon colors work very well for icons (although I think Tuomas, who is largely responsible for that color scheme in icons, is moving somewhat brighter colors in his newer work, for instance the icons in Evolution). > I'd hate to flame anyone but the current design of the Gnome site (front page) > does not really suit my taste (or professional opinion). Mostly because it is > hard to read, too diffucult to understand where to click and has too much > graphics but also because the colours (bright pink, blue and green) make me > think of My Little Pony or icecream and are not consistent with the Gnome > colours. I think the previous site was better (as I remember it) and was > surprised by the change, which was a step in the opposite direction of most > website design (where flexibility, utility, useability, download speed and > design elements well adjusted for the web are gaining ground). Well, some of this is personal opinion, I won't take issue with that, since there's little point. Download speed increased with the new design (it's about 2/3 of the old page size). I'm not sure how exactly you feel usability and "design elements well adjusted for the web" were hurt by the new design, although I'll admit that some flexibility from the development perspective was lost by using graphics for text, etc. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From digitect@mindspring.com Mon Dec 18 20:22:17 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 608742BDE9 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 20:22:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from smui05.slb.mindspring.net (smui05.slb.mindspring.net [199.174.114.91]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA21347 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 20:22:17 -0500 (EST) From: digitect@mindspring.com Received: by smui05.slb.mindspring.net id UAA0000008124; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 20:22:16 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 20:22:16 -0500 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: On colour Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: 208.150.104.109 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > ulf@obsession.se wrote: > > Your proposals include too many too diverse colours. Oops, I guess I didn't mean to suggest that we use ALL these colors on one page. I really intended to create a *family* of colors to be used in more selective compositions (as you suggest) across www.gnome.org, developer.gnome.org, gtk.gnome.org, help.gnome.org, foundation.gnome.org, etc. The palette is a total range (figure, field and accent) of all the sub-sites in the gnome.org domain, which together define GNOME. I would heartily agree that no artist could/should work out a composition with even half of them! But thanks for bringing it up, because I'm wondering if you think that's a valid approach. I've been thinking that each major section should be a variation of one theme. Perhaps they all use a monochromatic color scheme, each with a different color from the family. Or maybe they all have one brown, but use different accents. Take Microsoft. Their "look" is those primary colors (along with other non-color devices). But each product, sub-site, or application uses a different color as the primary and one or more of the others for accent. In this way each gets it's own look, but yet stays within the recognizable family. With just the four total, they get over a hundred valid compositions. But do you think GNOME should have our different sub-sites look different, or all the same? I'll also say that there are more than just two theories about what constitutes "good" color composition, although the two you mention are the most common. Here is an interior design site that does a pretty good job of outlining some of the more commonly accepted theories. Read "Color Schemes" about half way down: http://www.kitchen-emporium.com/colour.html I'm particularly fond of neutral, but that's because I'm an architect. (Imagine concrete, white plaster, stainless steel, bleached maple flooring, and black granite counter tops--mmm, delicious.) For the GNOME web site I also think it does a better job of showing off the muted colors in our artwork. My current proposal is that the GNOME site be a white background, with light tan and dark brown page elements (from tradition), dark gray text accented by the periwinkle blue. Most other sections reuse the white background and dark gray text, along with the tan and brown, but are differently accented in the greens, ochres, or rusts from my proposed family of colors. And sometimes (like developer.gnome.org) we use more black to make it more suspenseful, or flip accent and primaries. The user continues to see the same color scheme, the "brand" of GNOME, but recognizes a new subsection intuitively because of the compositional adjustments, all of which are choreographed around the desired mood in each site. ("Help" is friendly, "Foundation" is businesslike, "Developer" is ominous, etc.) Wow, it's tough to discuss this stuff in writing! Thanks for bearing with me. Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From amundson@eventloop.com Mon Dec 18 23:41:20 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from skull.eventloop.com (mail.eventloop.com [209.98.211.225]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07BEC2BB7E for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:41:20 -0500 (EST) Received: (from amundson@localhost) by skull.eventloop.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id WAA02212; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 22:41:07 -0600 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 22:41:07 -0600 From: Shawn T Amundson To: "Tomas V.V.Cox" Cc: Ryan Muldoon , Joakim Ziegler , gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: 2. Audience (was Re: Design document [Draft 1]) Message-ID: <20001218224106.A2120@eventloop.com> Reply-To: Shawn T Amundson Mail-Followup-To: "Tomas V.V.Cox" , Ryan Muldoon , Joakim Ziegler , gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <3A3CC32C.1FF011DA@idecnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A3CC32C.1FF011DA@idecnet.com>; from cox@idecnet.com on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 02:44:12PM +0100 X-Widget-Set-Url: http://www.gtk.org/ Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 02:44:12PM +0100, Tomas V.V.Cox wrote: > > > > I think one of the main goals should be the issue of integrating new > > members of the GNOME community. What I mean by this is encouraging > > people to get involved in improving GNOME. The best way to accelerate > > the rate of improvement of GNOME is to get more people involved. > > > > Perhaps we can do an user oriented navigation structure. > > | | Desktop users | Developers | Press | Bussiness | > |----------------------------------------------------------------- > | (Contents Bar)| > | What is Gnome | > | other | > | other | > | other | > | other | > > Again, I'd like to stress my belief that the website should feel like it is for desktop users and developers, not for press and big business. I agree that it is important information and a very important group of people, but GNOME's *image* is more important. I suggest Press things be categorized under "Contact Us". Perhaps on that page, have a link to the "Press Kit" pages. This will not be too hard to find for the press. The other portion, a overview of what GNOME is, should be on the homepage. I suggest that someone could start writing some nice text for GNOME's front page which is interesting and pulls you into various areas of the project. I am curious what specific things are targetted at Businesses and not just large groups of users (like Universities). I suggest the following top level navigation: | | The Desktop | Download | Development | News | Contact Us | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- | (Contents Bar)| | ..... | | ..... | | ..... | | ..... | | ..... | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Webmaster | Legal Here is what would go in each section: The Desktop - All information for the User and non-coding Contributor (www.gnome.org) Download - Information on downloading GNOME and GNOME Applications (www.gnome.org/download/) Development - For the developer (developer.gnome.org) News - News about GNOME (news.gnome.org) Contact Us - All contact info, press kit, etc. (www.gnome.org/contact_us/) Everything else would be in the sidebar under one of these categories. -Shawn -- Shawn T. Amundson amundson@eventloop.com Research and Development http://www.eventloop.com/ EventLoop, Inc. http://www.snorfle.net/ "The assumption that the universe looks the same in every direction is clearly not true in reality." - Stephen Hawking From amundson@eventloop.com Mon Dec 18 23:52:33 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from skull.eventloop.com (mail.eventloop.com [209.98.211.225]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8419A2BB7E for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:52:32 -0500 (EST) Received: (from amundson@localhost) by skull.eventloop.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id WAA02246 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 22:52:32 -0600 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 22:52:32 -0600 From: Shawn T Amundson To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] Message-ID: <20001218225231.B2120@eventloop.com> Reply-To: Shawn T Amundson Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com>; from joakim@helixcode.com on Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:56:57AM -0600 X-Widget-Set-Url: http://www.gtk.org/ Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:56:57AM -0600, Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > TABLE OF CONTENTS > > 1. Introduction > > 2. Audience and goals > > 3. Navigation structure/usability > > 4. Graphical design > > 5. Localization > > 6. Technology > > Also: 7. Contributors and Copyright > > > 1. Introduction > > This is a draft design document for the GNOME websites. It's based on the > discussion on gnome-web-list@gnome.org, as well as my own personal > suggestions/preferences. Don't take things here as written in stone, this is > mostly intended as a starting point for discussion. The next version of this document should probably say something like: The is a draft design document for the GNOME websites. It is based on discussion by the GNOME Web Development Team on gnome-web-list@gnome.org as well as feedback from GNOME users, contributors, and developers. Don't take things here as written in stone, this is intended for discussion purposes and to document the theory behind our decisions while developing the website. Delete the following paragraph, it is not relevant to the discussion: > > The structure of the document is fairly general, and is designed to > accommodate most changes, so we won't have to go around changing the actual > structure, just the content of the sections. It's a lot easier that way. > [ More in seperate e-mails ] -Shawn -- Shawn T. Amundson amundson@eventloop.com Research and Development http://www.eventloop.com/ EventLoop, Inc. http://www.snorfle.net/ "The assumption that the universe looks the same in every direction is clearly not true in reality." - Stephen Hawking From amundson@eventloop.com Tue Dec 19 00:24:27 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from skull.eventloop.com (mail.eventloop.com [209.98.211.225]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD99C2C8B5 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:24:26 -0500 (EST) Received: (from amundson@localhost) by skull.eventloop.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id XAA02318 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:24:26 -0600 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:24:26 -0600 From: Shawn T Amundson To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] Message-ID: <20001218232425.C2120@eventloop.com> Reply-To: Shawn T Amundson Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com>; from joakim@helixcode.com on Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:56:57AM -0600 X-Widget-Set-Url: http://www.gtk.org/ Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:56:57AM -0600, Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > 3. Navigation structure/usability > > The navigational structure for the GNOME sites is by no means a given. There > has been a lot of discussion, particularly about the top-level division of > areas, where there have been suggestions for task-oriented, user group > oriented, and subject oriented navigation, as well as variations over these > three basic themes. > > My current proposal is to use a task/subject hybrid structure, with user > group oriented navigation as an alternative method of access. That is, the > main categories of the navigation tree are task/subject oriented, and we > present a small menu in a sidebar or similar on the frontpage for users to > navigate by user group, which leads to one page per user group, with a > collection of links that's relevant for that group. > > That still leaves the problem of creating the top-level categories. It's very > easy to either overspecialize the categories, and end up with too many > (anything over 10-12 is too many, in reality) or create too broad categories > that are unintuitive. I created 12 categories which I believe are rather > intuitive for the user, and span all the information we want to place on the > GNOME sites. I've not created the actual structure beneath each toplevel > category, as I think it's not entirely clear yet what things we actually > *want*, however I believe this structure is general enough that it'll be able > to hold whatever we want to put into it. The order of this list might be > illogical. I think that this is too many things. I already e-mailed this out a few minutes ago, but I'll repeat so the comments below make sense: Toplevel categories: The Desktop - All information for the User and non-coding Contributor (www.gnome.org) Download - Information on downloading GNOME and GNOME Applications (www.gnome.org/download/) Development - For the developer (developer.gnome.org) News - News about GNOME (news.gnome.org) Contact Us - All contact info, press kit, etc. (www.gnome.org/contact_us/) Now, I'll comment on where I think each of the following should land in my proposed toplevel structure. > 3.1 Top-level structure > > About > > Introductory documents. Mainly for those unfamiliar with GNOME in general, > and who want a quick way to figure out what this is all about. Includes the > a "What is GNOME" document, the general GNOME FAQ, and also documents for > companies interested in supporting GNOME, the project roadmap, etc. This type of thing would go in "The Desktop" area. > > > Screenshots > > An important link to have on the front page, since this is what a lot of > people look for. Idea for structure: Split it up into several different > types of screenshots, like "Basic", "Businesslike", "Applications", > "Oddities", etc. Perhaps make screenshots imagemaps which can be clicked to > bring you to the appindex page of each displayed application? > The problem with this is, it creates a parallel navigation to find screenshots. Say for example, I want screenshots of GTK+ widgets. If I am on www.gtk.org and I click screenshots, I would expect to get GTK+ screenshots, not a long list of differnt types of screenshots. Likewise, if I am in the user section, I probably don't care about widget screenshots - I'd rather see apps and themes. Also, if I am at the GNOME Office page I will expect to see GNOME Office screenshots. Therefore, I suggest that screenshot links be stuck in the most obvious place under the category where it makes sense. This will still make it obvious. It will just be on the sidebar instead of the toplevel. > > Get it > > Describe the various ways to get and install GNOME. CVS, GNOME FTP servers, > Linux distributions which include GNOME, and Helix GNOME would all be > relevant pointers here. It's a matter of resources how much we want to > actually support all of this, but we should at least have instructions for > how to get, build and install GNOME from CVS and GNOME FTP. > All of this would be under "Download". In my opinion, "Download" is a stronger term than "Get it". It is more formal and professional. > > Support > > How to get help with GNOME. All the documentation should be here, as well as > pointers to mailing lists, bugzilla, IRC channels, etc. > A lot of this applies to both "The Desktop" and "Development". Links to this information should be in both locations. I suggest that "Support" sounds potentially like commercial support though, so that term not be used for navigation. > > News > > Gnotices in some shape or form. Basically newsitems with discussion. Same. > > > Software > > A revamped, expanded version of the Appindex. Should let you search for > software in a variety of ways, including category, file types it'll read > and write (very practical for all the people who come onto IRC and say > "What GNOME program can read a .foo file?", and so on. Possibly also an > equivalence index, where people can say "I need something like Outlook", > and it'll take you to Evolution. I suggest that this belongs primarily under "Download", with links in "The Desktop" as well. > > > Developer > > Entry for the developer minded. Basically the combined content of today's > developer.gnome.org and www.gtk.org. Same. > > > Press > > All the info members of the press would need to represent GNOME in a > correct manner. Journalists work under time constraints, so this is where > we have the chance to give them all the info they need in one neat package. > Should include a press kit (possibly in PDF format), a list of contact mail > addresses and phone numbers (I know, phone numbers are so 1985, but some > journalists prefer them), press photos (preferably, each press contact > listed should have a downloadable high-resolution photo for the press to > use when interviewing), representative screenshots (of the nice and simple > variety), and so on. The press kit itself should be a brief presentation of > GNOME, talking about the project history, the foundation, the current > status, what corporate backers there are, etc. This should be under "Contact Us". > > Foundation > > All the formal stuff about the foundation, how a company can join the > advisory board, current board of directors, board meeting minutes, and so > on. The exact content of this section should be up to the people more > directly involved with the foundation, I believe. This might justify another toplevel navigation. I hadn't taken it into consideration. > > Contact > > Ways to contact the GNOME project and the members, for various purposes. > This should definitely be broken down by task, so that bug reports can be > directed to bugzilla, press inquiries to the press section, etc. Under Contact Us. > Events > > An events calendar, listing upcoming tradeshows where GNOME will be > present, as well as scheduled upcoming releases. A link should exist to this from "The Desktop", "Development", and "Contact Us". > People > > Developer index, developer interviews (I'd like to resurrect that section, > even though I only ever did one interview, I think it was a good one, and > it's a great way to show the faces behind the software. Actually, it's such > a good idea that KDE cloned it off our site), and so on. Well, a developer index should go under Contact Us. Developer interviews should go under "News". > > 3.2 Other navigation methods, shortcuts into the structure, etc. > > The structure outlined above is a reasonable main navigational structure, but > one structure will never fit everyone. Hence, I'm suggesting augmenting it > with a few metastructures that will mainly be accessible through the front > page: > > > Role description > > Allow people to choose who they are from a small menu (about ten items, > perhaps), and arrive on a page of quick links for the group they chose. The > links go directly into the structure, and are the ones we believe are > useful for that group, in the order they should be read. > > Quick tasks > > Allow people to choose a few typical tasks from a menu, and go directly to > those pages. These should be the 4-8 pages people visit the most, but that > are still not logical to make into top-level categories. Things that spring > to mind as obvious candidates are "Report a bug", "I need help!", etc. I think both "role description" and "quick tasks" are fixes that are employed on sites that have navigation so difficult as to be usable. Hopefully we can do better and won't need these things. The problem with menu things is people are drawn to them and may ignore the rest of the navigation. > Search the site > > A search box on the front page is a necessity, and should search the entire > site. Yes. -Shawn -- Shawn T. Amundson amundson@eventloop.com Research and Development http://www.eventloop.com/ EventLoop, Inc. http://www.snorfle.net/ "The assumption that the universe looks the same in every direction is clearly not true in reality." - Stephen Hawking From amundson@eventloop.com Tue Dec 19 00:37:11 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from skull.eventloop.com (mail.eventloop.com [209.98.211.225]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA0D12BBA9 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:37:10 -0500 (EST) Received: (from amundson@localhost) by skull.eventloop.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id XAA02394 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:37:10 -0600 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:37:10 -0600 From: Shawn T Amundson To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] Message-ID: <20001218233709.D2120@eventloop.com> Reply-To: Shawn T Amundson Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com>; from joakim@helixcode.com on Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:56:57AM -0600 X-Widget-Set-Url: http://www.gtk.org/ Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:56:57AM -0600, Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > 4. Graphical design > > There have been several quick sketches of the web site look and feel on the > list lately. There seems to be considerable agreement on several aspects of > the graphical design. I've tried to sum up those here, as well as inject some > common sense rules, and some opinions of my own, of course. > > > 4.1 Colors and typefaces > > High contrast is easier to read than low contrast. Dark text on a light > background is easier to read than the opposite. It seems clear that we should > use black text on white or light pastel backgrounds throughout the site, to > keep readability as high as possible. This doesn't, however, exclude the > occasional use of light-on-dark for menus with reasonably few items, etc. > > Typefaces on the web are a difficult problem. While technologies like CSS > give decent control over what typefaces the browser chooses to use, there's > no good, standardized and open method for downloading typefaces, hence one is > limited mainly to specifying sans-serif or serif fonts. Sans fonts are widely > used because they look cleaner, however, serifs theoretically increase > readability, if rendered correctly, but font rendering in web browsers, > especially under X, is abysmal. Thus, it might be worth considering using a > sans font for the GNOME sites. I suggest the site be designed in such a manner that this is dynamic and can be changed easily. Think of having things like a Christmas or Halloween theme. (Ok, these are poor cultural examples, but you get what I'm saying.) Or maybe changing the website "theme" in for GNOME 2.0. > 4.2 Headlines and icons > > For maintainability, headlines should be text only. The current design uses > graphics for some text (most notably the menus), and this has proven to be > difficult to maintain and update. Even though there are techniques for > generating images of text on the fly and caching them, we should try to avoid > this as much as possible. > > It would be good to integrate some icons into the site, since GNOME has very > attractive icons on the desktop, etc. However, keeping the site light on > graphics is probably a good idea, and since icons would have to be specially > created for the site, it's dangerous to rely on them (if we had an icon per > section, adding a new section would entail finding an icon artist to do > another icon in the style of the existing ones). I agree completely. > 4.3 Navigation bars and menus > > There are basically two main layouts used for the main navigation bars > (navigating the main hierarchy). One, which has been the standard for most > sites for a very long time, is the "Along the left side of the page" vertical > menu. The advantages are that we can include basically as many items as we > want, since vertical is the axis people are used to scrolling on anyway. The > disadvantage is that subnavigation is difficult to integrate intuitively > (most attempts use an indenting system, which tends to make the menu very > wide). > > The other, which has become more common lately, is the stacked horizontal > navbars along the top of the page. The advantages of this is that revealing > several levels of navigation is very easy and intuitive, by adding bars below > each other, The disadvantage is that it's somewhat limiting in the number of > items that can be included on each level of navigation. > > Personally, I've come to prefer the stacked horizontal bars, if they're > practical given the navigation structure, for a number of reasons. They stay > out of the way a lot more than the vertical menu (since the vertical menus > usually means wrapping the whole content in a table and putting the menu in a > table cell to the left of it, so that there's essentially a strip of blank > space all the way down below the menu bar), it takes up less screen > realestate in general, and it's a model most people are comfortable with. > > We could optionally also include "breadcrumbs" to make finding out exactly > where you are in the structure simpler (breadcrumbs are the category > > subcategory > current page used on for instance yahoo.) > > If we use horizontal stacked bars, I suggest we place the alternate > navigation methods (user group based, quick links, search) in a column along > one of the sides of the frontpage, possibly in little boxes. Because of the long list of things that might potentially be in the secondary menu, I suggest a more standard horizontal toplevel with the vertical secondary. A dual vertical would be difficult to do properly without using graphical text. In addition, if the site is in that big table, you can flip flop between the differenty styles at will. I think the vertical one will be easier initially. > 5. Localization > > We've amply discussed this. I'm going to write a section on it, but I believe > it's not vital right now, and I really want to just get this document out > there. Perhaps someone who has strong opinions supporting Localization should write a draft of this section. I also believe it is not important at this time, but it will quickly become important when implementation eventually begins. > > 6. Technology > > Technology should be decided after a few days of discussion and fleshing out > of the sections above. > I suggest stating it is tenatively PHP with mySQL, because it sounds like that's what most people are thinking. Obviously the group as a whole won't decide this: the implementors and maintainers of the site will determine it. -Shawn -- Shawn T. Amundson amundson@eventloop.com Research and Development http://www.eventloop.com/ EventLoop, Inc. http://www.snorfle.net/ "The assumption that the universe looks the same in every direction is clearly not true in reality." - Stephen Hawking From amundson@eventloop.com Tue Dec 19 00:52:09 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from skull.eventloop.com (mail.eventloop.com [209.98.211.225]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09EAF2BB7B for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:52:09 -0500 (EST) Received: (from amundson@localhost) by skull.eventloop.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id XAA02477; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:52:07 -0600 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:52:07 -0600 From: Shawn T Amundson To: digitect Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001218235207.E2120@eventloop.com> Reply-To: Shawn T Amundson Mail-Followup-To: digitect , gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <003901c0688a$defbe6c0$0201a8c0@pc001> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <003901c0688a$defbe6c0$0201a8c0@pc001>; from digitect@mindspring.com on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 07:38:41PM -0500 X-Widget-Set-Url: http://www.gtk.org/ Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 07:38:41PM -0500, digitect wrote: > > Anyone else care to chime in with opinions of colors? Joakim and I have been > preaching at each other for quite a few exchanges but I hope we haven't scared > everybody else off. I'll try to keep it down a little until next weekend. I have a hard time visualizing what the site will look like without seeing a full mockup. :-( I will suggest that we might want different color schemes on different parts of the site. For example, the murky brown color might be a good starting point for the development portion of the site, while happier brighter colors might be better for providing info to users. Just a thought. I definately think that GNotices should have a unique look and a branding of it's own, as well as "fit in". -Shawn -- Shawn T. Amundson amundson@eventloop.com Research and Development http://www.eventloop.com/ EventLoop, Inc. http://www.snorfle.net/ "The assumption that the universe looks the same in every direction is clearly not true in reality." - Stephen Hawking From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Tue Dec 19 00:54:58 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 939022BB7B for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:54:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id XAA168182 (8.9.1/50); Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:54:09 -0600 Message-Id: <200012190554.XAA168182@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: 2. Audience (was Re: Design document [Draft 1]) From: Ryan Muldoon To: Shawn T Amundson Cc: Tomas "V.V.Cox" , Joakim Ziegler , gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20001218224106.A2120@eventloop.com> References: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <3A3CC32C.1FF011DA@idecnet.com> <20001218224106.A2120@eventloop.com> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 19 Dec 2000 09:55:14 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > Again, I'd like to stress my belief that the website should feel > like it is for desktop users and developers, not for press and > big business. I agree that it is important information and a very > important group of people, but GNOME's *image* is more important. > I completely agree > I suggest Press things be categorized under "Contact Us". Perhaps > on that page, have a link to the "Press Kit" pages. This will not > be too hard to find for the press. The other portion, a overview > of what GNOME is, should be on the homepage. I suggest that someone > could start writing some nice text for GNOME's front page which is > interesting and pulls you into various areas of the project. > This sounds like a good idea to me > I am curious what specific things are targetted at Businesses and > not just large groups of users (like Universities). > I think the intention was to get businesses looking at the foundation. I guess that this could fit under "contact us" - but we should aim for clarity whenever possible. > I suggest the following top level navigation: > > | | The Desktop | Download | Development | News | Contact Us | > |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > | (Contents Bar)| > | ..... | > | ..... | > | ..... | > | ..... | > | ..... | > |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > | Webmaster | Legal > > Here is what would go in each section: > > The Desktop - All information for the User and non-coding Contributor (www.gnome.org) > Download - Information on downloading GNOME and GNOME Applications (www.gnome.org/download/) > Development - For the developer (developer.gnome.org) > News - News about GNOME (news.gnome.org) > Contact Us - All contact info, press kit, etc. (www.gnome.org/contact_us/) > what about a "Projects" subheading? This might be useful to point to sub-groups, like Documentation, Translation, UI, Sound, etc. The benefit of a "projects" section would be that my "projects of the week" idea would fall nicely under that category. (wording would have to change though...) --Ryan From amundson@eventloop.com Tue Dec 19 01:02:09 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from skull.eventloop.com (mail.eventloop.com [209.98.211.225]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84FCD2BB7B for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 01:02:08 -0500 (EST) Received: (from amundson@localhost) by skull.eventloop.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id AAA02553; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:01:59 -0600 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:01:59 -0600 From: Shawn T Amundson To: Ryan Muldoon Cc: "Tomas V.V.Cox" , Joakim Ziegler , gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: 2. Audience (was Re: Design document [Draft 1]) Message-ID: <20001219000159.F2120@eventloop.com> Reply-To: Shawn T Amundson Mail-Followup-To: Ryan Muldoon , "Tomas V.V.Cox" , Joakim Ziegler , gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <3A3CC32C.1FF011DA@idecnet.com> <20001218224106.A2120@eventloop.com> <200012190554.XAA168182@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012190554.XAA168182@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 09:55:14AM +0500 X-Widget-Set-Url: http://www.gtk.org/ Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 09:55:14AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > > > I am curious what specific things are targetted at Businesses and > > not just large groups of users (like Universities). > > > I think the intention was to get businesses looking at the foundation. > I guess that this could fit under "contact us" - but we should aim for > clarity whenever possible. Ok, I suggest "Foundation" also be a toplevel heading which takes you to the foundation website. > > > I suggest the following top level navigation: > > > > | | The Desktop | Download | Development | News | Contact Us | > > |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > | (Contents Bar)| > > | ..... | > > | ..... | > > | ..... | > > | ..... | > > | ..... | > > |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > | Webmaster | Legal > > > > Here is what would go in each section: > > > > The Desktop - All information for the User and non-coding Contributor (www.gnome.org) > > Download - Information on downloading GNOME and GNOME Applications (www.gnome.org/download/) > > Development - For the developer (developer.gnome.org) > > News - News about GNOME (news.gnome.org) > > Contact Us - All contact info, press kit, etc. (www.gnome.org/contact_us/) > > > what about a "Projects" subheading? This might be useful to point to > sub-groups, like Documentation, Translation, UI, Sound, etc. > > The benefit of a "projects" section would be that my "projects of the week" > idea would fall nicely under that category. (wording would have to change > though...) > This would go under "The Desktop" since they are contributor things. There will be quite a few things on the sidebar, and we should probably go over each area one-by-one and figure out exactly what goes in each area. First we need to agree on an initial set of toplevel navigation controls. If later on we can't resolve where things should go, we start over. -Shawn -- Shawn T. Amundson amundson@eventloop.com Research and Development http://www.eventloop.com/ EventLoop, Inc. http://www.snorfle.net/ "The assumption that the universe looks the same in every direction is clearly not true in reality." - Stephen Hawking From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Tue Dec 19 01:02:50 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1EF72BB7B for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 01:02:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id AAA51320 (8.9.1/50); Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:02:40 -0600 Message-Id: <200012190602.AAA51320@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: GNOME colors From: Ryan Muldoon To: Shawn T Amundson Cc: digitect , gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20001218235207.E2120@eventloop.com> References: <003901c0688a$defbe6c0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001218235207.E2120@eventloop.com> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 19 Dec 2000 10:03:46 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 07:38:41PM -0500, digitect wrote: > > > > Anyone else care to chime in with opinions of colors? Joakim and I have been > > preaching at each other for quite a few exchanges but I hope we haven't scared > > everybody else off. I'll try to keep it down a little until next weekend. > > I have a hard time visualizing what the site will look like > without seeing a full mockup. :-( > I think this is what is holding back most other people on the list as well.... digitect has a decent mockup of some color ideas already.....maybe he can spend a little time working on it to add in his color suggestions? In a couple days I'll try and do the same, as time allows. > I will suggest that we might want different color schemes on > different parts of the site. For example, the murky brown > color might be a good starting point for the development portion > of the site, while happier brighter colors might be better for > providing info to users. Just a thought. I definately think > that GNotices should have a unique look and a branding of it's > own, as well as "fit in". I think a good idea is what digitect mentioned earlier: establishing a set of colors to work with, and then have each subsite be a different arrangement of those colors. It would let each section have its own identity, while being easily associated with the gnome.org umbrella. That gives us a lot of leeway for each section. Some common elements (like text) should be consistent throughout, of course. --Ryan From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Tue Dec 19 01:12:49 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD8422BB7B for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 01:12:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id AAA19364 (8.9.1/50); Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:12:25 -0600 Message-Id: <200012190612.AAA19364@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: 2. Audience (was Re: Design document [Draft 1]) From: Ryan Muldoon To: Shawn T Amundson Cc: Tomas "V.V.Cox" , Joakim Ziegler , gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20001219000159.F2120@eventloop.com> References: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <3A3CC32C.1FF011DA@idecnet.com> <20001218224106.A2120@eventloop.com> <200012190554.XAA168182@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219000159.F2120@eventloop.com> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 19 Dec 2000 10:13:30 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 09:55:14AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > > > > > I am curious what specific things are targetted at Businesses and > > > not just large groups of users (like Universities). > > > > > I think the intention was to get businesses looking at the foundation. > > I guess that this could fit under "contact us" - but we should aim for > > clarity whenever possible. > > Ok, I suggest "Foundation" also be a toplevel heading which takes you to > the foundation website. > ok, that sounds like a good idea > > > > > I suggest the following top level navigation: > > > > > > | | The Desktop | Download | Development | News | Contact Us | > > > |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > | (Contents Bar)| > > > | ..... | > > > | ..... | > > > | ..... | > > > | ..... | > > > | ..... | > > > |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > | Webmaster | Legal > > > > > > Here is what would go in each section: > > > > > > The Desktop - All information for the User and non-coding Contributor (www.gnome.org) > > > Download - Information on downloading GNOME and GNOME Applications (www.gnome.org/download/) > > > Development - For the developer (developer.gnome.org) > > > News - News about GNOME (news.gnome.org) > > > Contact Us - All contact info, press kit, etc. (www.gnome.org/contact_us/) > > > > > what about a "Projects" subheading? This might be useful to point to > > sub-groups, like Documentation, Translation, UI, Sound, etc. > > > > The benefit of a "projects" section would be that my "projects of the week" > > idea would fall nicely under that category. (wording would have to change > > though...) > > > > This would go under "The Desktop" since they are contributor > things. > > There will be quite a few things on the sidebar, and we should > probably go over each area one-by-one and figure out exactly > what goes in each area. First we need to agree on an initial set > of toplevel navigation controls. If later on we can't resolve > where things should go, we start over. > I think that we should avoid things like sub-sub-headings if possible..... I'll try and think about this tomorrow and see if I can come up with a suggested navigation system. --Ryan From amundson@eventloop.com Tue Dec 19 01:13:21 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from skull.eventloop.com (mail.eventloop.com [209.98.211.225]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FDD12BB7B for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 01:13:20 -0500 (EST) Received: (from amundson@localhost) by skull.eventloop.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id AAA02638; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:13:18 -0600 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:13:18 -0600 From: Shawn T Amundson To: Ryan Muldoon Cc: digitect , gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001219001318.A2615@eventloop.com> Reply-To: Shawn T Amundson Mail-Followup-To: Ryan Muldoon , digitect , gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <003901c0688a$defbe6c0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001218235207.E2120@eventloop.com> <200012190602.AAA51320@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012190602.AAA51320@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:03:46AM +0500 X-Widget-Set-Url: http://www.gtk.org/ Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:03:46AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > > I think a good idea is what digitect mentioned earlier: establishing a set of > colors to work with, and then have each subsite be a different arrangement of > those colors. It would let each section have its own identity, while being > easily associated with the gnome.org umbrella. That gives us a lot of leeway > for each section. Some common elements (like text) should be consistent > throughout, of course. > I admit I read through the color thread *really* quickly. ;-) -Shawn -- Shawn T. Amundson amundson@eventloop.com Research and Development http://www.eventloop.com/ EventLoop, Inc. http://www.snorfle.net/ "The assumption that the universe looks the same in every direction is clearly not true in reality." - Stephen Hawking From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Tue Dec 19 08:53:43 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D3E72BEFE for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:53:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148NDD-0006uq-00; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:53:52 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:49:17 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: "Tomas V.V.Cox" , Ryan Muldoon , gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: 2. Audience (was Re: Design document [Draft 1]) Message-ID: <20001219084917.B2280@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: "Tomas V.V.Cox" , Ryan Muldoon , gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <3A3CC32C.1FF011DA@idecnet.com> <20001218224106.A2120@eventloop.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20001218224106.A2120@eventloop.com>; from amundson@eventloop.com on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 10:41:07PM -0600 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 10:41:07PM -0600, Shawn T Amundson wrote: > Again, I'd like to stress my belief that the website should feel > like it is for desktop users and developers, not for press and > big business. I agree that it is important information and a very > important group of people, but GNOME's *image* is more important. > I suggest Press things be categorized under "Contact Us". Perhaps > on that page, have a link to the "Press Kit" pages. This will not > be too hard to find for the press. The other portion, a overview > of what GNOME is, should be on the homepage. I suggest that someone > could start writing some nice text for GNOME's front page which is > interesting and pulls you into various areas of the project. Having press as a top-level navigation category is a good idea, I think. It doesn't skew the focus of the site significantly away from users and developers, since there will be about 10 top level categories no matter what we do. Since press stuff isn't just about contact, but also about a specific type of information, it's very useful to put it all in one place. > I am curious what specific things are targetted at Businesses and > not just large groups of users (like Universities). There are a couple of things. First of all, information on/marketing for the foundation targetted towards businesses who might want to join the advisory board. Secondly, Red Hat have asked me in the past about a place to put information for ISVs who are considering porting their applications to GNOME (and have volunteered to produce that information). > I suggest the following top level navigation: > > | | The Desktop | Download | Development | News | Contact Us | > |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > | (Contents Bar)| > | ..... | > | ..... | > | ..... | > | ..... | > | ..... | > |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > | Webmaster | Legal > Here is what would go in each section: > The Desktop - All information for the User and non-coding Contributor (www.gnome.org) > Download - Information on downloading GNOME and GNOME Applications (www.gnome.org/download/) > Development - For the developer (developer.gnome.org) > News - News about GNOME (news.gnome.org) > Contact Us - All contact info, press kit, etc. (www.gnome.org/contact_us/) > Everything else would be in the sidebar under one of these categories. These categories seem very broad to me. Specifically "The Desktop" would have around 10 subcategories, while "Download" would hardly have any. If "Download" is a top-level category, why isn't "Screenshots"? They're both things people do a lot, and are likely to do immediately. I think the navigational structure needs more thinking. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Tue Dec 19 08:54:56 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8963D2BEFE for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:54:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148NF1-0007rQ-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:55:43 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:51:09 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: 2. Audience (was Re: Design document [Draft 1]) Message-ID: <20001219085109.C2280@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <3A3CC32C.1FF011DA@idecnet.com> <20001218224106.A2120@eventloop.com> <200012190554.XAA168182@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219000159.F2120@eventloop.com> <200012190612.AAA19364@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012190612.AAA19364@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:13:30AM +0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:13:30AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: >> On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 09:55:14AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: >> There will be quite a few things on the sidebar, and we should >> probably go over each area one-by-one and figure out exactly >> what goes in each area. First we need to agree on an initial set >> of toplevel navigation controls. If later on we can't resolve >> where things should go, we start over. > I think that we should avoid things like sub-sub-headings if possible..... > I'll try and think about this tomorrow and see if I can come up with a > suggested navigation system. Just a word of warning: It's usually very hard to avoid three levels of navigation on a site that has any amount of content at all. This goes double if you want rather few top level categories (like "The Desktop" would be impossible to categorize properly with only one more level under it). -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Tue Dec 19 09:25:25 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B83202BB87 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:25:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148NiW-0004Sj-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:26:12 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:21:37 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] Message-ID: <20001219092137.D2280@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> <20001218232425.C2120@eventloop.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20001218232425.C2120@eventloop.com>; from amundson@eventloop.com on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 11:24:26PM -0600 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 11:24:26PM -0600, Shawn T Amundson wrote: > On Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:56:57AM -0600, Joakim Ziegler wrote: > I think that this is too many things. I already e-mailed this out a few > minutes ago, but I'll repeat so the comments below make sense: > Toplevel categories: > > The Desktop - All information for the User and non-coding Contributor (www.gnome.org) > Download - Information on downloading GNOME and GNOME Applications (www.gnome.org/download/) > Development - For the developer (developer.gnome.org) > News - News about GNOME (news.gnome.org) > Contact Us - All contact info, press kit, etc. (www.gnome.org/contact_us/) > Now, I'll comment on where I think each of the following should land in > my proposed toplevel structure. I think this is too few things, by far. Look at any largish company site that has a set of products and activities ranging as wide as the GNOME project. On the Microsoft frontpage, I count 32 top-level navigation links, not counting the links inside the actual body part of the site, sorted into 6 categories of links. The KDE site has 37 links on the front page navigational structure, separated into 10 categgories of links. Adobe has 7 main navigation categories. Red Hat has 19 links in 6 categories. The new Helix Code site will have 9 top level categories. All are more than 5, some a lot more. (Yes, I'm making the assumption here that these sites do things right. I think that's a reasonable one.) >> About >> Introductory documents. Mainly for those unfamiliar with GNOME in general, >> and who want a quick way to figure out what this is all about. Includes the >> a "What is GNOME" document, the general GNOME FAQ, and also documents for >> companies interested in supporting GNOME, the project roadmap, etc. > This type of thing would go in "The Desktop" area. It's not just about the desktop, though. As I've said so many times that people might actually find it boring already, GNOME is a lot more than a desktop, and the desktop is already the thing getting the most exposure. The other about stuff are introductions to GNOME as a whole, history of the GNOME project, roadmaps and release schedules, what companies are backing GNOME, etc. >> Screenshots >> An important link to have on the front page, since this is what a lot of >> people look for. Idea for structure: Split it up into several different >> types of screenshots, like "Basic", "Businesslike", "Applications", >> "Oddities", etc. Perhaps make screenshots imagemaps which can be clicked to >> bring you to the appindex page of each displayed application? > The problem with this is, it creates a parallel navigation to > find screenshots. Say for example, I want screenshots of GTK+ > widgets. If I am on www.gtk.org and I click screenshots, I > would expect to get GTK+ screenshots, not a long list of differnt > types of screenshots. Likewise, if I am in the user section, > I probably don't care about widget screenshots - I'd rather see > apps and themes. Also, if I am at the GNOME Office page I will > expect to see GNOME Office screenshots. > Therefore, I suggest that screenshot links be stuck in the most > obvious place under the category where it makes sense. This will > still make it obvious. It will just be on the sidebar instead > of the toplevel. There's nothing wrong with parallel navigation. In fact, just about any nontrivial information structure will have to tangle the hierarchy, or you'll have incredible headaches about where to put stuff. A good way to do the screenshots thing would likely be to make it a trivial script, so you can ask for screenshots including a specific app/widget/whatever. You'll end up with parallel navigation no matter what, since if you're on the page for an app, and click on "Download", you should be taken to the "Download" section. >> Get it >> >> Describe the various ways to get and install GNOME. CVS, GNOME FTP servers, >> Linux distributions which include GNOME, and Helix GNOME would all be >> relevant pointers here. It's a matter of resources how much we want to >> actually support all of this, but we should at least have instructions for >> how to get, build and install GNOME from CVS and GNOME FTP. > All of this would be under "Download". In my opinion, "Download" is a > stronger term than "Get it". It is more formal and professional. Sure, this could be renamed. What are other people's opinion? >> Support >> How to get help with GNOME. All the documentation should be here, as well as >> pointers to mailing lists, bugzilla, IRC channels, etc. >> > A lot of this applies to both "The Desktop" and "Development". Links to > this information should be in both locations. I suggest that "Support" > sounds potentially like commercial support though, so that term not be used > for navigation. Commercial support should probably be in here too, actually. There's a reasonably large number of companies offering commercial support at the moment (take a look at http://www.gnome.org/commsupp.html ). I think support is a good candidate for a top level categorie precisely because it applies to several other areas. Tangling the hierarchy with something that's just linked to from two different branches, but isn't accessible on its own seems very counterintuitive to me. >> Software >> A revamped, expanded version of the Appindex. Should let you search for >> software in a variety of ways, including category, file types it'll read >> and write (very practical for all the people who come onto IRC and say >> "What GNOME program can read a .foo file?", and so on. Possibly also an >> equivalence index, where people can say "I need something like Outlook", >> and it'll take you to Evolution. > I suggest that this belongs primarily under "Download", with links in > "The Desktop" as well. Downloading the software is just a small part of what you do with it, though. And some of it also belongs in "Developer", since there will be libraries and development tools and whatnot. This spread suggests to me that it should be its own category. >> Press >> All the info members of the press would need to represent GNOME in a >> correct manner. Journalists work under time constraints, so this is where >> we have the chance to give them all the info they need in one neat package. >> Should include a press kit (possibly in PDF format), a list of contact mail >> addresses and phone numbers (I know, phone numbers are so 1985, but some >> journalists prefer them), press photos (preferably, each press contact >> listed should have a downloadable high-resolution photo for the press to >> use when interviewing), representative screenshots (of the nice and simple >> variety), and so on. The press kit itself should be a brief presentation of >> GNOME, talking about the project history, the foundation, the current >> status, what corporate backers there are, etc. > This should be under "Contact Us". Actually, if we were to put it somewhere, I'd put it in "About" (Which I'm 100% sure is a good idea to have as a top-level item, per the reasons above). >> Events >> An events calendar, listing upcoming tradeshows where GNOME will be >> present, as well as scheduled upcoming releases. > A link should exist to this from "The Desktop", "Development", and > "Contact Us". Actually, it might belong on news.gnome.org (in other words, under "News", now that I think about it. The main problem with the events page as it is, is that it's hard to keep it up to date, traditionally. >> People >> Developer index, developer interviews (I'd like to resurrect that section, >> even though I only ever did one interview, I think it was a good one, and >> it's a great way to show the faces behind the software. Actually, it's such >> a good idea that KDE cloned it off our site), and so on. > Well, a developer index should go under Contact Us. Developer interviews > should go under "News". They're not really news, though. If you were looking to find out who the people behind GNOME were, would "News" be your first choice? I think keeping people as a top level category has a strong symbolic effect too, in this time of corporate involvement. >> Role description >> Allow people to choose who they are from a small menu (about ten items, >> perhaps), and arrive on a page of quick links for the group they chose. The >> links go directly into the structure, and are the ones we believe are >> useful for that group, in the order they should be read. >> Quick tasks >> Allow people to choose a few typical tasks from a menu, and go directly to >> those pages. These should be the 4-8 pages people visit the most, but that >> are still not logical to make into top-level categories. Things that spring >> to mind as obvious candidates are "Report a bug", "I need help!", etc. > I think both "role description" and "quick tasks" are fixes that are employed > on sites that have navigation so difficult as to be usable. Hopefully we > can do better and won't need these things. The problem with menu things is > people are drawn to them and may ignore the rest of the navigation. They can be that, but it's by no means necessary. Role oriented navigation is a valid navigational metaphor, and "Quick links" are an excellent way to point the way to things that are often used, but aren't top level categories. In fact, if we cut down on the number of categories, the quick links would be even more important (screenshots would become one, for instance). -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Tue Dec 19 09:30:05 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9E9E2DD19 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:30:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148Nn2-0000IO-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:30:52 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:26:18 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] Message-ID: <20001219092618.E2280@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> <20001218233709.D2120@eventloop.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20001218233709.D2120@eventloop.com>; from amundson@eventloop.com on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 11:37:10PM -0600 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 11:37:10PM -0600, Shawn T Amundson wrote: > On Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:56:57AM -0600, Joakim Ziegler wrote: > I suggest the site be designed in such a manner that this is dynamic > and can be changed easily. Think of having things like a Christmas or > Halloween theme. (Ok, these are poor cultural examples, but you get > what I'm saying.) Or maybe changing the website "theme" in for GNOME > 2.0. This is fairly easy no matter what, I think, if we use PHP or such for generating the pages. Headers and footers for the site would just be function calls, etc. > Because of the long list of things that might potentially be in the > secondary menu, I suggest a more standard horizontal toplevel with > the vertical secondary. > A dual vertical would be difficult to do properly without using > graphical text. > In addition, if the site is in that big table, you can flip flop > between the differenty styles at will. I think the vertical one > will be easier initially. I think we should let this wait until we've figured out the navigational structure. With the one I proposed, the number of items on the second level wouldn't be that high, while with your proposal, it would be. >> 5. Localization >> We've amply discussed this. I'm going to write a section on it, but I believe >> it's not vital right now, and I really want to just get this document out >> there. > Perhaps someone who has strong opinions supporting Localization should write > a draft of this section. I also believe it is not important at this time, but > it will quickly become important when implementation eventually begins. Yes, that would be great. Any takers? >> 6. Technology >> Technology should be decided after a few days of discussion and fleshing out >> of the sections above. > I suggest stating it is tenatively PHP with mySQL, because it sounds > like that's what most people are thinking. Obviously the group as a > whole won't decide this: the implementors and maintainers of the site > will determine it. I agree. Duly noted for the next draft. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From mark@websidestory.com Tue Dec 19 11:52:08 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.websidestory.com (mail1.websidestory.com [208.232.223.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E9442BC51 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:52:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from websidestory.com (pip-1.hitbox.com [209.75.20.72]) by mail1.websidestory.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id eBJGq7E28383 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:52:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A3F9374.6E11A9E9@websidestory.com> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:57:24 -0800 From: Mark Koopman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> <20001218232425.C2120@eventloop.com> <20001219092137.D2280@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > >> Get it > >> > >> Describe the various ways to get and install GNOME. CVS, GNOME FTP servers, > >> Linux distributions which include GNOME, and Helix GNOME would all be > >> relevant pointers here. It's a matter of resources how much we want to > >> actually support all of this, but we should at least have instructions for > >> how to get, build and install GNOME from CVS and GNOME FTP. > > > All of this would be under "Download". In my opinion, "Download" is a > > stronger term than "Get it". It is more formal and professional. > > Sure, this could be renamed. What are other people's opinion? > unless some naming convention is what we want to follow, 'Download' IMO is much more concise, widely accepted and understood. > >> Software > > >> A revamped, expanded version of the Appindex. Should let you search for > >> software in a variety of ways, including category, file types it'll read > >> and write (very practical for all the people who come onto IRC and say > >> "What GNOME program can read a .foo file?", and so on. Possibly also an > >> equivalence index, where people can say "I need something like Outlook", > >> and it'll take you to Evolution. > > > I suggest that this belongs primarily under "Download", with links in > > "The Desktop" as well. > > Downloading the software is just a small part of what you do with it, though. > And some of it also belongs in "Developer", since there will be libraries and > development tools and whatnot. This spread suggests to me that it should be > its own category. > maybe off a Download page, have links for each app that links to it's appropriate Appindex page? Sourceforge-ish style, perhaps? > >> Press > > >> All the info members of the press would need to represent GNOME in a > >> correct manner. Journalists work under time constraints, so this is where > >> we have the chance to give them all the info they need in one neat package. > >> Should include a press kit (possibly in PDF format), a list of contact mail > >> addresses and phone numbers (I know, phone numbers are so 1985, but some > >> journalists prefer them), press photos (preferably, each press contact > >> listed should have a downloadable high-resolution photo for the press to > >> use when interviewing), representative screenshots (of the nice and simple > >> variety), and so on. The press kit itself should be a brief presentation of > >> GNOME, talking about the project history, the foundation, the current > >> status, what corporate backers there are, etc. > > > This should be under "Contact Us". > > Actually, if we were to put it somewhere, I'd put it in "About" (Which I'm > 100% sure is a good idea to have as a top-level item, per the reasons above). > i vote About! Press information should be in an About page, because an About section is a easily understood link that leads anyone to know more 'about' something. the Press's main purpose is to inform the public 'about' things. :) #!/usr/local/bin/perl # Mark Koopman - mark@websidestory.com # Software Engineer # # WebSideStory, Inc # # 10182 Telesis Court # San Diego CA 92121 # 858.546.1182.##.318 # 858.546.0480.fax eval(lc(join('', map ({chr}(q( 49877273766940 80827378843973 32767986693280 69827639463932 39883673434341 ))=~/../g)))); From ulf@obsession.se Tue Dec 19 13:17:41 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from angel.algonet.se (angel.algonet.se [194.213.74.112]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B5C982BB95 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:17:40 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 522 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2000 19:17:34 +0100 Received: from garibaldi.tninet.se (HELO algonet.se) (195.100.94.103) by angel.algonet.se with SMTP; 19 Dec 2000 19:17:34 +0100 Received: from obsession.se (sdu95-77.ppp.algonet.se [195.163.77.95]) by garibaldi.tninet.se (BLUETAIL Mail Robustifier 2.2.1) with ESMTP id 49810.249853.977garibaldi-s2 ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 19:17:33 +0100 Message-ID: <3A40F7E0.4CF245AF@obsession.se> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:18:08 +0100 From: Ulf Pettersson Reply-To: ulf@obsession.se Organization: Obsession Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: digitect@mindspring.com, gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: On colour References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > Oops, I guess I didn't mean to suggest that we use ALL these colors on one page... ...I would heartily agree that no artist could/should work out a composition with even half of them! That does feel a lot better. > But thanks for bringing it up, because I'm wondering if you think that's a valid approach. In general, yes. But i would choose a few primary colours first and work out the variations as I designed the actual pages. > I've been thinking that each major section should be a variation of one theme. Good idea. >But do you think GNOME should have our different sub-sites look different, or all the same? Different, definately. But the _main_ difference should come from the fact that the content is different, not from different visual profiles. Visual consistency is a big problem in free software design, the value of branding and placing products in a 'family' is vastly underrated. Isn't one of the main tasks of this list to make all the Gnome web sites use the same visual profile? > I'll also say that there are more than just two theories about what constitutes "good" color composition, although the two you mention are the most common. Certainly. It just didn't seem to me like much of any theory was used at all, with colours from all across the spectrum without priorities ;). I narrowmindedly expected people on this list only to be some variation of perl-hacker/programmer and in my experience they never know anything about (perceptive) colour-theory. I'm not that good with colour anyway, I can never choose. > http://www.kitchen-emporium.com/colour.html Thanks. > I'm particularly fond of neutral, but that's because I'm an architect. Doesn't really surprise me, given those colours. > Wow, it's tough to discuss this stuff in writing! Thanks for bearing with me. It is yes, even tougher having to do it in second-language English. Ulf Pettersson From ulf@obsession.se Tue Dec 19 15:41:38 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from knatte.tninet.se (knatte.tninet.se [195.100.94.10]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8DB7B2BBE3 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:41:37 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 2724 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2000 21:41:36 +0100 Received: from garibaldi.tninet.se (HELO algonet.se) (195.100.94.103) by knatte.tninet.se with SMTP; 19 Dec 2000 21:41:36 +0100 Received: from obsession.se (sdu95-77.ppp.algonet.se [195.163.77.95]) by garibaldi.tninet.se (BLUETAIL Mail Robustifier 2.2.1) with ESMTP id 208082.258495.977garibaldi-s0 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:41:35 +0100 Message-ID: <3A4119A4.24FB39FA@obsession.se> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:42:12 +0100 From: Ulf Pettersson Reply-To: ulf@obsession.se Organization: Obsession Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: [Fwd: Re: On colour] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work >Secondly, a desktop and a > web site are so different media that it would be a bad idea to try to unify > them too much (Apple were only able to unify their web site and desktop after > they turned the desktop into a visual circus of useless chrome, which has > received more or less unanimous bad reviews from usability experts, and The point is not to unify them in a practical sense but in a branding sense. Of course it would be wrong to use ui features as buttons or visual elements on the website or excess in graphics just because you want an exact os look. Ulf Pettersson From ulf@obsession.se Tue Dec 19 15:42:40 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from hromeo.algonet.se (hromeo.algonet.se [194.213.74.51]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7918A2BBE3 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:42:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 16217 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2000 21:42:37 +0100 Received: from garibaldi.tninet.se (HELO algonet.se) (195.100.94.103) by hromeo.algonet.se with SMTP; 19 Dec 2000 21:42:37 +0100 Received: from obsession.se (sdu95-77.ppp.algonet.se [195.163.77.95]) by garibaldi.tninet.se (BLUETAIL Mail Robustifier 2.2.1) with ESMTP id 899174.258556.977garibaldi-s2 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:42:36 +0100 Message-ID: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:43:14 +0100 From: Ulf Pettersson Reply-To: ulf@obsession.se Organization: Obsession Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > I will suggest that we might want different color schemes on > different parts of the site. Completely different color schemes is not a good suggestion. It will break the consistency of the site. > For example, the murky brown > color might be a good starting point for the development portion > of the site, while happier brighter colors might be better for > providing info to users. Just a thought. I definately think > that GNotices should have a unique look and a branding of it's > own, as well as "fit in". Why? Ulf Pettersson From ulf@obsession.se Tue Dec 19 16:03:15 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from musse.tninet.se (musse.tninet.se [195.100.94.12]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B42382C9FE for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:03:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 5797 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2000 22:03:11 +0100 Received: from garibaldi.tninet.se (HELO algonet.se) (195.100.94.103) by musse.tninet.se with SMTP; 19 Dec 2000 22:03:11 +0100 Received: from obsession.se (sdu95-77.ppp.algonet.se [195.163.77.95]) by garibaldi.tninet.se (BLUETAIL Mail Robustifier 2.2.1) with ESMTP id 586130.259790.977garibaldi-s2 ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:03:10 +0100 Message-ID: <3A411E99.ACB7E6C0@obsession.se> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:03:21 +0100 From: Ulf Pettersson Reply-To: ulf@obsession.se Organization: Obsession Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joakim Ziegler , gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> <20001218232425.C2120@eventloop.com> <20001219092137.D2280@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > This type of thing would go in "The Desktop" area. > > It's not just about the desktop, though. As I've said so many times that > people might actually find it boring already, GNOME is a lot more than a > desktop, and the desktop is already the thing getting the most exposure. The > other about stuff are introductions to GNOME as a whole, history of the GNOME > project, roadmaps and release schedules, what companies are backing GNOME, etc. Desktop just isn't a good choice as a top-level category. I would not understand what to find there. Joakims original proposal was better. > >> Screenshots > > Therefore, I suggest that screenshot links be stuck in the most > > obvious place under the category where it makes sense. This will > > still make it obvious. It will just be on the sidebar instead > > of the toplevel. > > There's nothing wrong with parallel navigation. In fact, just about any > nontrivial information structure will have to tangle the hierarchy, or you'll Good point. However it must be combined with a very strict and consistent hierarchy. This is not easy of course. > > All of this would be under "Download". In my opinion, "Download" is a > > stronger term than "Get it". It is more formal and professional. > > Sure, this could be renamed. What are other people's opinion? I don't know about formal or professional but Download is a lot easier for me to understand (as swedish native). It is also the term used most widely, for sure. Ulf Pettersson From jdub@aphid.net Tue Dec 19 17:47:11 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mr14.vic-remote.bigpond.net.au (mr14.vic-remote.bigpond.net.au [24.192.1.29]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DE682D484 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 17:47:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (CPE-61-9-177-91.vic.bigpond.net.au [61.9.177.91]) by mr14.vic-remote.bigpond.net.au (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA20426 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:47:01 +1100 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0BC9F39560; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:46:53 +1100 (EST) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:46:53 +1100 From: Jeff Waugh To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: GNOME Sites & Colour Coding Message-ID: <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> Mail-Followup-To: Jeff Waugh , gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se>; from ulf@obsession.se on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:43:14PM +0100 X-Message: Leenooks, Lienucks, Leenoos, Lienus, Let's call the whole thing off. X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.17 i686 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > I will suggest that we might want different color schemes on > > different parts of the site. > > Completely different color schemes is not a good suggestion. It will break the > consistency of the site. You'll find that he means s/different/complementary/ -> this is a good idea, and makes navigation much clearer. Have I missed any? (I'm almost sure I have.) gnome.org news.gnome.org developer.gnome.org foundation.gnome.org (gnome-foundation.org, etc) gtk.org - Jeff -- jdub@aphid.net ----------------------------- http://lazarus.aphid.net/ -- "Can we have a special TELSABUG category, and everything gets dropped to fix them first?" - Telsa Gwynne From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Tue Dec 19 18:37:30 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05E3E2BBFC for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:37:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id RAA24628 (8.9.1/50); Tue, 19 Dec 2000 17:37:22 -0600 Message-Id: <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Navigation Proposal From: Ryan Muldoon To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 20 Dec 2000 03:38:28 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Since I had a bit of time on my hands, I tried to think of a slighly more intuitive way to arrange navigation for the GNOME sites. This may or may not translate well for gtk.org .....I think that gtk.org's main page will have to just have a different (more sparse) set of navigational links, and then all of the links will go to pages with gnome.org-style navigation. Basically, my goal was to cut down on the number of main sections. It seemed like a bad idea to me to have 10 top-level sections. I cut it down to 6, and still managed (I think) to cover all the bases that Joakim's proposal did. I also managed to sneak in my "Project of the Week." My current thinking is that we should try to have a different "main" color for each section (from the pool of colors we will decide on), and then use the other colors for accents. That way, we keep with the same colors throughout, but give each site it's own look. Anyway, please feel free to give me some criticism. I tried to model this after my structural suggestion for how the websites should be organized (from my email "initial structure ideas" from a month ago). About Press Kit Screenshots FAQ List of Contributors Community IRC info GNOME roadmap Project of the Week Developer Interviews Mailing lists Events News Development Tutorials Whitepapers API Reference CVS Foundation Charter Meeting Minutes Board Members Advisory Board Membership Projects Localization UI Hitsquad Sound Documentation Software Application List Bugzilla Download From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Tue Dec 19 22:31:20 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92CB92BF82 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:31:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148ZzB-0008TK-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 04:32:13 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:27:31 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:38:28AM +0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:38:28AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > About > Press Kit > Screenshots > FAQ > List of Contributors > Community > IRC info > GNOME roadmap > Project of the Week > Developer Interviews > Mailing lists > Events > News > Development > Tutorials > Whitepapers > API Reference > CVS > Foundation > Charter > Meeting Minutes > Board Members > Advisory Board > Membership > Projects > Localization > UI Hitsquad > Sound > Documentation > Software > Application List > Bugzilla > Download I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" not being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick links". Hm. Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than my proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be improved further. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From cardinal@dodds.net Tue Dec 19 23:12:50 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from norad.dodds.net (norad.dodds.net [206.65.64.207]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08CED2BBB2 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:12:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by norad.dodds.net (Postfix, from userid 522) id 28921C200; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:12:49 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by norad.dodds.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 224C8C1FF; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:12:49 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:12:48 -0600 (CST) From: Matt McClanahan To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal In-Reply-To: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Tue, 19 Dec 2000, Joakim Ziegler wrote: > On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:38:28AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > > > About > > Press Kit > > Screenshots > > FAQ > > List of Contributors > > Community > > IRC info > > GNOME roadmap > > Project of the Week > > Developer Interviews > > Mailing lists > > Events > > News (snip) > > Software > > Application List > > Bugzilla > > Download > > I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" not > being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick links". Hm. > Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than my > proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be > improved further. I'd tend to agree on the News, but I've never seen downloads as being a 'primary' link off of the landing page. I suppose access logs could easilly prove me wrong, but putting it under software makes sense to me. Wouldn't there be a brief news summary on the landing page anyway, which could then provide the direct link to the news page? The press kit also seems something that would intuitively go in an 'About' section. On many corporate (Not intending to draw a parallel of course, just citing examples) sites I've seen, 'About' tends to be a single link from the landing page, which is then broken down into company info, investor relations, press kit, and whatever else. Matt From webmaven@lvcm.com Tue Dec 19 23:41:09 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams3.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.77]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 787502BBB2 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:41:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.231.69]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Tue, 19 Dec 2000 20:42:05 -0800 Message-ID: <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:50:49 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > [snip] > > I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" not > being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick links". Hm. > Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than my > proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be > improved further. This is quite a bit closer to a purely topical heirarchy, with action items (verbs) relegated to leaf nodes (except for quick links/in-line links). I would suggest further modifying the heirarchy by: - Moving the roadmap under the 'About' category - Creating 'GTK' and 'Gnome Desktop' sub headings under 'Software' - Moving the 'Development' category under 'Software' - Moving 'Projects' under either 'Software' or 'Community' This would leave us with four top level categories of content: * About GNOME * GNOME Community * GNOME Foundation * GNOME Software Which should be all encompassing, and fairly clear as to where to look to find what you want. With only four top level categories, these can be represented by a row of buttons across the top, and second and third level navigation can be accomplished with a right- or left-handed vertical bar. HTH, Michael Bernstein From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Tue Dec 19 23:53:57 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F6D52CE64 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:53:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148bH7-0000sh-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 05:54:50 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:50:07 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001219235007.H1013@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com>; from webmaven@lvcm.com on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:50:49PM -0800 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:50:49PM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: > Joakim Ziegler wrote: >> I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" not >> being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick links". Hm. >> Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than my >> proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be >> improved further. > This is quite a bit closer to a purely topical heirarchy, > with action items (verbs) relegated to leaf nodes (except > for quick links/in-line links). I would suggest further > modifying the heirarchy by: > - Moving the roadmap under the 'About' category > - Creating 'GTK' and 'Gnome Desktop' sub headings under > 'Software' > - Moving the 'Development' category under 'Software' > - Moving 'Projects' under either 'Software' or 'Community' > This would leave us with four top level categories of > content: > * About GNOME > * GNOME Community > * GNOME Foundation > * GNOME Software > Which should be all encompassing, and fairly clear as to > where to look to find what you want. With only four top > level categories, these can be represented by a row of > buttons across the top, and second and third level > navigation can be accomplished with a right- or left-handed > vertical bar. While nice in theory, I think this falls into the "too much abstraction" trap. Yes, it's a really nicely topical, logical hierarchy, but people expect stuff like "Development" to be a top level header. Remember, we're not aiming for the perfect categorization system here (Dewey Decimal works really well, but it's hell to navigate for people who don't know it), we're aiming for something that's optimal to use. That means as few clicks as possible to the stuff that people use the most. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From shax82@hotmail.com Wed Dec 20 01:39:38 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from hotmail.com (oe27.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.236.247]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B38F82BB41 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:39:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:39:37 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [148.246.89.138] From: "Felipe Contreras" To: "Gnome Web List" , "Joakim Ziegler" References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <20001219235007.H1013@helixcode.com> Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal: desktop.gnome.org Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:55:20 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Dec 2000 06:39:37.0066 (UTC) FILETIME=[9F1AACA0:01C06A4F] Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joakim Ziegler" Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal > On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:50:49PM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: > > Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > >> I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" not > >> being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick links". Hm. > >> Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than my > >> proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be > >> improved further. > > > This is quite a bit closer to a purely topical heirarchy, > > with action items (verbs) relegated to leaf nodes (except > > for quick links/in-line links). I would suggest further > > modifying the heirarchy by: > > > - Moving the roadmap under the 'About' category > > - Creating 'GTK' and 'Gnome Desktop' sub headings under > > 'Software' > > - Moving the 'Development' category under 'Software' > > - Moving 'Projects' under either 'Software' or 'Community' > > > This would leave us with four top level categories of > > content: > > > * About GNOME > > * GNOME Community > > * GNOME Foundation > > * GNOME Software > > > Which should be all encompassing, and fairly clear as to > > where to look to find what you want. With only four top > > level categories, these can be represented by a row of > > buttons across the top, and second and third level > > navigation can be accomplished with a right- or left-handed > > vertical bar. > > While nice in theory, I think this falls into the "too much abstraction" > trap. Yes, it's a really nicely topical, logical hierarchy, but people expect > stuff like "Development" to be a top level header. > > Remember, we're not aiming for the perfect categorization system here (Dewey > Decimal works really well, but it's hell to navigate for people who don't > know it), we're aiming for something that's optimal to use. That means as few > clicks as possible to the stuff that people use the most. I was just thinking... Ok, GNOME is more than the desktop, so let's supose that I'm a GNOME's desktop user, so it could be good, to let's say I can find everything I want in desktop.gnome.org or just let's keep clear in mind what "GNOME" is and how can it be divided. In fact honestly I thought it was just the desktop, so I think a positioning statement whould help a lot to decide wich whould be the final site's structure. From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Wed Dec 20 02:11:47 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57F5E2BB41 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:11:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id BAA62748 (8.9.1/50); Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:11:43 -0600 Message-Id: <200012200711.BAA62748@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal From: Ryan Muldoon To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 20 Dec 2000 11:12:47 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:38:28AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > > > About > > Press Kit > > Screenshots > > FAQ > > List of Contributors > > Community > > IRC info > > GNOME roadmap > > Project of the Week > > Developer Interviews > > Mailing lists > > Events > > News > > Development > > Tutorials > > Whitepapers > > API Reference > > CVS > > Foundation > > Charter > > Meeting Minutes > > Board Members > > Advisory Board > > Membership > > Projects > > Localization > > UI Hitsquad > > Sound > > Documentation > > Software > > Application List > > Bugzilla > > Download > > I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" not > being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick links". Hm. > Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than my > proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be > improved further. My rationale for your comments: Press: Press kit seems like it would be "about" GNOME, and I don't know how many subsections it would have, and if they really need to be quickly accessed in the general case. News: What does this really include other than Gnotices? I couldn't come up with anything, so if it were a category, it would be empty. Also, I would imagine that the front page will have news as well, anyway Download: It seems like a single action item, that I do with the category "software." Download has a download page...what else? Nonstandard GNOME software would have download links in the Application List, I'd imagine. I've been working on a quick mockup of a front page (without any graphics for now, as I really shouldn't be the one to make them) to test out some colors, and the navigation. I changed "IRC info" to "Support", which seemed to make more sense, as IRC is kind of specific. Support would have that information. Once I have a little more time to work with colors, I will post the mockup for general critique. It certainly isn't meant to express the final look of the site - its point is to address whether the colors we are thinking about and the navigation structure is usable. --Ryan From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Wed Dec 20 02:16:10 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 112A72BB41 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:16:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id BAA171370 (8.9.1/50); Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:15:46 -0600 Message-Id: <200012200715.BAA171370@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal From: Ryan Muldoon To: Michael Bernstein Cc: Joakim Ziegler , gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 20 Dec 2000 11:16:51 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > > > [snip] > > > > I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" not > > being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick links". Hm. > > Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than my > > proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be > > improved further. > > This is quite a bit closer to a purely topical heirarchy, > with action items (verbs) relegated to leaf nodes (except > for quick links/in-line links). I would suggest further > modifying the heirarchy by: > > - Moving the roadmap under the 'About' category > Why? It seems like the roadmap would be for the community. > - Creating 'GTK' and 'Gnome Desktop' sub headings under > 'Software' > I think part of the point is that we want to integrate GTK stuff with GNOME stuff, not separate them out. We want to push the GNOME platform. > - Moving the 'Development' category under 'Software' > This is definitely wrong.....people look for Development information. There is a lot of it. It should be in a section by itself. > - Moving 'Projects' under either 'Software' or 'Community' > Projects are pretty big by themselves.....they should have their own section. > This would leave us with four top level categories of > content: > > * About GNOME > > * GNOME Community > > * GNOME Foundation > > * GNOME Software > > Which should be all encompassing, and fairly clear as to > where to look to find what you want. With only four top > level categories, these can be represented by a row of > buttons across the top, and second and third level > navigation can be accomplished with a right- or left-handed > vertical bar. > I agree with Joakim here - this is too much simplification. We want to be able to get at information without too many clicks. I cut down from the initial 10 because that seemed like too many categories, and it wasn't easy to quickly understand. With too few categories, you run into the same problem. --Ryan From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Wed Dec 20 02:34:08 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65CD92CCF3 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:33:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id BAA57916 (8.9.1/50); Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:33:10 -0600 Message-Id: <200012200733.BAA57916@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Really Quick Mockup From: Ryan Muldoon To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <200012200715.BAA171370@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <200012200715.BAA171370@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 20 Dec 2000 11:34:15 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work I have put up a mockup (heavily based on digitect's most recent mockup) of what I've been thinking about for how Navigation could work, and colors. What I would like to do, but don't have the time to do at the moment, is come up with a main color for each of the sections, and use that for the background color of the section heading. Ideally, all of these would come from Joakim's color comp, as the first two colors did. I really liked the grey text that digitect started with. I darkened the link color a bit, and did some other minor touchups. As I said before, this is for testing colors, fonts, and navigation. I'd like to leave the real templates to the artists of the group, as I'm definitely not one of them. I apologize for not putting up a completed mockup, but I am going home for the holidays tomorrow, so I figured that I would put something up for people to look at, rather than wait. Release early, release often, as I recall. http://www.illuminagraphic.com/dev/gnome/ --Ryan From michel@expocentro.com Wed Dec 20 07:20:27 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from barney.springfield (barney.ipsa.com.ar [200.47.2.9]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5613F2D399 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 07:20:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.springfield (milhouse.springfield [172.16.20.39]) by barney.springfield (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA96755 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:19:54 -0300 (ART) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:19:28 -0300 From: Michel Martens To: Gnome Web List Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: ; from cardinal@dodds.net on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:12:48 -0300 X-Mailer: Balsa 1.0.0 Lines: 29 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On 2000.12.20 01:12:48 -0300 Matt McClanahan wrote: > > I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" > not > > being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick > links". Hm. > > Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than > my > > proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be > > improved further. > > I'd tend to agree on the News, but I've never seen downloads as being a > 'primary' link off of the landing page. I suppose access logs could > easilly prove me wrong, but putting it under software makes sense to me. > Wouldn't there be a brief news summary on the landing page anyway, which > could then provide the direct link to the news page? Couldn't we get access to the logs of www.gnome.org? I think it could be a good starting point to see what are the visitors requesting. That will give us the big picture of what is important for the users and will give us a good idea of how we could arrange the site's navigation structure to meet their requirements. Michel. From digitect@mindspring.com Wed Dec 20 08:01:11 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from maynard.mail.mindspring.net (maynard.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.243]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEFD32BF58 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 08:01:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf2uq.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.139.218]) by maynard.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA12817 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 08:01:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <009501c06a84$ec48df80$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> Subject: Re: GNOME colors Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 08:01:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work I'm going to start trying to put some themed color compositions together towards the end of the week so we can visualize how this (my palette) might work across the many sub-sites. I won't specify which is intended for which area so that you can read into them what you want. I realize that the color palettes Joakim and I posted are pretty abstract and are hard to visualize. But it's going to take some time to think through each sub-site's composition for mockups. Mine will be basic blocks of color in the proportion and shape that we might use them, at 50% scale. It will help us to discuss color composition and their possibilities without actually designing the pages. I have been keeping up with all the comps that everyone has submitted to date (I think) so that I don't have to go back through the emails. They're at http://www.mindspring.com/~digitect/gnome/ if you're interested. I've also posted a revised color comp (Steve Hall 02) here that is probably a little more balanced and expressive of my neutral idea. Are there any other color palette proposals? We're going to need to start moving on this soon if we are ever to get through actual page design. Even though we've made some good progress on discussing color and structure, I'm anticipating that marrying these two will be quite the main event. Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From webmaven@lvcm.com Wed Dec 20 10:43:40 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams4.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.78]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DCE22BB74 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:43:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.231.69]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Wed, 20 Dec 2000 07:45:22 -0800 Message-ID: <3A40F218.A3A42DD1@lvcm.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:53:28 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <20001219235007.H1013@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:50:49PM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: > > > > This would leave us with four top level categories of > > content: > > > * About GNOME > > * GNOME Community > > * GNOME Foundation > > * GNOME Software > > > Which should be all encompassing, and fairly clear as to > > where to look to find what you want. With only four top > > level categories, these can be represented by a row of > > buttons across the top, and second and third level > > navigation can be accomplished with a right- or left-handed > > vertical bar. > > While nice in theory, I think this falls into the "too much abstraction" > trap. Yes, it's a really nicely topical, logical hierarchy, but people expect > stuff like "Development" to be a top level header. I disagree. I think it's worth not creating a mixed noun/verb categorization schema, and you'll actually confuse people more if you don't excersize retsraint in this regard. If I'm looking for documentation, do I find it under 'Software' or under 'Development'? > Remember, we're not aiming for the perfect categorization system here (Dewey > Decimal works really well, but it's hell to navigate for people who don't > know it), we're aiming for something that's optimal to use. That means as few > clicks as possible to the stuff that people use the most. That comparison's a bit unfair. Dewey decimal attempts to categorize all human knowledge, We're just trying to categorize all of GNOME. And as far as the 'few clicks as possible' goes, you've already noted that quick links and in-line text links can give access to items deep within the heirarchy. Also, keep in mind that one of the goals of your categorization schema should be maintainability. If you come up with new content, it should be immediately obvious and crystal clear which topic it falls under, and if you're creating a new category in the future, it should be immediately obvious whether it's a sub-category of an existing topic, of if it's a new top-level category. If you feel that more top level navigation items are needed, I'll happily go along with that, but they need to be logically distinct, not just re-parented branches. It's better to have more than one categorization schema (as I've suggested before), having a separate navigation device for each, than to create mixed and hybrid schemas. So if you want to ceate a second navigation device indicating the audience, for example, that would work just fine (clicking on the 'developer' item on the second bar could bring you to a page of quick developer links) and allow people to find what they're looking for in the way that they're most comfortable. HTH, Michael Bernstein. From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Wed Dec 20 11:01:36 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DB122CDC3 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:01:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148lhH-0004zZ-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:02:32 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:57:44 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001220105744.I1013@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <200012200711.BAA62748@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012200711.BAA62748@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 11:12:47AM +0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 11:12:47AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: >> On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:38:28AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: >>> About >>> Press Kit >>> Screenshots >>> FAQ >>> List of Contributors >>> Community >>> IRC info >>> GNOME roadmap >>> Project of the Week >>> Developer Interviews >>> Mailing lists >>> Events >>> News >>> Development >>> Tutorials >>> Whitepapers >>> API Reference >>> CVS >>> Foundation >>> Charter >>> Meeting Minutes >>> Board Members >>> Advisory Board >>> Membership >>> Projects >>> Localization >>> UI Hitsquad >>> Sound >>> Documentation >>> Software >>> Application List >>> Bugzilla >>> Download >> I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" not >> being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick links". Hm. >> Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than my >> proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be >> improved further. > My rationale for your comments: > Press: Press kit seems like it would be "about" GNOME, and I don't know how > many subsections it would have, and if they really need to be quickly accessed > in the general case. Yes, it would be "about" GNOME, and it probably wouldn't have many subsections (contacts, press kit, and some link page, perhaps). My main concern is not from a logical hierarchy point of view, I'm more concerned with people immideately finding what they're looking for. I think members of the press would like to have an immediately visible "Press" link. It *could* be a quick link, granted. > News: What does this really include other than Gnotices? I couldn't come up > with anything, so if it were a category, it would be empty. Also, I would > imagine that the front page will have news as well, anyway Well, Gnotices isn't just one page, it's a whole hierarchy in itself. The front page, the individual stories, and the comments to the stories, the page to submit new stories, not to mention the "More stories by this author" and other meta-functionality. Of the three things I've mentioned here, Gnotices is the one I'm the most sure should be a top level item. > Download: It seems like a single action item, that I do with the category > "software." Download has a download page...what else? Nonstandard GNOME > software would have download links in the Application List, I'd imagine. The main reason for this would be to make it very accessible. However, I suppose Software-Download is dead intuitive, so that would be ok. I agree with this one. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Wed Dec 20 11:16:53 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 451392C906 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:16:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148lw8-00061T-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:17:52 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:13:07 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001220111307.J1013@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <20001219235007.H1013@helixcode.com> <3A40F218.A3A42DD1@lvcm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A40F218.A3A42DD1@lvcm.com>; from webmaven@lvcm.com on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:53:28AM -0800 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:53:28AM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: > Joakim Ziegler wrote: >> On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:50:49PM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: >>> This would leave us with four top level categories of >>> content: >>> * About GNOME >>> * GNOME Community >>> * GNOME Foundation >>> * GNOME Software >>> Which should be all encompassing, and fairly clear as to >>> where to look to find what you want. With only four top >>> level categories, these can be represented by a row of >>> buttons across the top, and second and third level >>> navigation can be accomplished with a right- or left-handed >>> vertical bar. >> While nice in theory, I think this falls into the "too much abstraction" >> trap. Yes, it's a really nicely topical, logical hierarchy, but people expect >> stuff like "Development" to be a top level header. > I disagree. I think it's worth not creating a mixed > noun/verb categorization schema, and you'll actually confuse > people more if you don't excersize retsraint in this regard. > If I'm looking for documentation, do I find it under > 'Software' or under 'Development'? I've never heard of cases where a "mixed noun/verb categorization schema" has ever led to problems. Indeed, the stilted terms or overly broad/narrow ctegories you create by trying to stick to one would likely be a bigger problem. Remember, even extremely usability tested software, such as everything coming out of Apple, has top-level menu items like "File", "Edit", "Tools" and "Window". >> Remember, we're not aiming for the perfect categorization system here (Dewey >> Decimal works really well, but it's hell to navigate for people who don't >> know it), we're aiming for something that's optimal to use. That means as few >> clicks as possible to the stuff that people use the most. > That comparison's a bit unfair. Dewey decimal attempts to > categorize all human knowledge, We're just trying to > categorize all of GNOME. And as far as the 'few clicks as > possible' goes, you've already noted that quick links and > in-line text links can give access to items deep within the > heirarchy. > Also, keep in mind that one of the goals of your > categorization schema should be maintainability. If you come > up with new content, it should be immediately obvious and > crystal clear which topic it falls under, and if you're > creating a new category in the future, it should be > immediately obvious whether it's a sub-category of an > existing topic, of if it's a new top-level category. This isn't going to happen. No matter how perfect your categorization schema, there will always be data that doesn't fit. In your four top level categories, you might have avoided this problem on the top level, because the categories are so vague, but it'll just come back to haunt you on the level below. Given a reasonablys malls et of data, like we have, you're not going o be able to construct a balanced and symmetrical category tree, because you can't specialize enough without ending up with just one or two documents in each category. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From mark@websidestory.com Wed Dec 20 12:00:30 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.websidestory.com (mail1.websidestory.com [208.232.223.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E17BA2DEE1 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:00:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from websidestory.com (pip-1.hitbox.com [209.75.20.72]) by mail1.websidestory.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id eBKH0SE07649 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:00:29 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A40E6D3.F689CDC3@websidestory.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:05:23 -0800 From: Mark Koopman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <20001219235007.H1013@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > Remember, we're not aiming for the perfect categorization system here (Dewey > Decimal works really well, but it's hell to navigate for people who don't > know it), we're aiming for something that's optimal to use. That means as few > clicks as possible to the stuff that people use the most. > what DO people use most? and how do you know? web analytics or gut-feeling? #!/usr/local/bin/perl # Mark Koopman - mark@websidestory.com # Software Engineer # # WebSideStory, Inc # # 10182 Telesis Court # San Diego CA 92121 # 858.546.1182.##.318 # 858.546.0480.fax eval(lc(join('', map ({chr}(q( 49877273766940 80827378843973 32767986693280 69827639463932 39883673434341 ))=~/../g)))); From mark@websidestory.com Wed Dec 20 12:20:31 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.websidestory.com (mail1.websidestory.com [208.232.223.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 339622DEF6 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:20:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from websidestory.com (pip-1.hitbox.com [209.75.20.72]) by mail1.websidestory.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id eBKHKUE08919 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:20:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A40EB82.8927DDD3@websidestory.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:25:22 -0800 From: Mark Koopman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gnome Web List Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Michel Martens wrote: > Couldn't we get access to the logs of www.gnome.org? I think it could be a > good starting point to see what are the visitors requesting. That will give > us the big picture of what is important for the users and will give us a > good idea of how we could arrange the site's navigation structure to meet > their requirements. > > Michel. and for the new site, (this might sound a bit egotistic), i recommend we install a HitBox counter, get.hitbox.com. It's put out by the company i work for, WebSideStory. the counter is trivial to integrate into a site and provides 24-7 real-time stats. hey, i think we have site analysis down pat. it's worth a thought and if anyone gives this more serious consideration, i'll see what i can do as far as having an Account donated to the project. email me if you want to know more about HitBox site analysis #!/usr/local/bin/perl # Mark Koopman - mark@websidestory.com # Software Engineer # # WebSideStory, Inc # # 10182 Telesis Court # San Diego CA 92121 # 858.546.1182.##.318 # 858.546.0480.fax eval(lc(join('', map ({chr}(q( 49877273766940 80827378843973 32767986693280 69827639463932 39883673434341 ))=~/../g)))); From mark@websidestory.com Wed Dec 20 12:29:39 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.websidestory.com (mail1.websidestory.com [208.232.223.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38CED2DEEA for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:29:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from websidestory.com (pip-1.hitbox.com [209.75.20.72]) by mail1.websidestory.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id eBKHTbE09625 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:29:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A40EDA8.3BF462DA@websidestory.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:34:32 -0800 From: Mark Koopman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Site Analysis Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > I haven't looked at statistics for www.gnome.org for a while. There were > (non-public) usage stats for www.gnome.org when it was hosted on the old > server, though, up until a few months ago. > > It's not really necessary to use stats to figure out what people use the > most, or rather, what we'd like them to use most, and what is most useful. > News.gnome.org, for instance, is clearly popular, just judging from the > number of comments each story gets (compared to Slashdot, we're doing really > well, actually). And it should be no surprise to anyone that people want to > find out what GNOME is, and then find out how to get it. > Here's a scenario: We feel popularity of GNOME is increasing, more discussion threads are seen on the site...but are people actually downloading any software? how can you tell? no one person can read all discussion threads to see what's hot/what's not, and then accurately alter a site's navigation/content to stir up some better usability of a site. HitBox offers path-tracking that can give you a good view at how people are clicking around your site. it's an accurate measure of how many pages people are viewing per visit, and if your traffic comes from Bookmarks, or Search Engines. i'm suggesting a HitBox because some discussions have entertained more of a marketing effort, and our HitBox site analysis suits a majority of our marketing efforts within our company. just a suggestion, dont mean to be harping on ya if i sound that way. -- #!/usr/local/bin/perl # Mark Koopman - mark@websidestory.com # Software Engineer # # WebSideStory, Inc # # 10182 Telesis Court # San Diego CA 92121 # 858.546.1182.##.318 # 858.546.0480.fax eval(lc(join('', map ({chr}(q( 49877273766940 80827378843973 32767986693280 69827639463932 39883673434341 ))=~/../g)))); From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Wed Dec 20 12:32:41 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37F642DEEA for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:32:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148n7T-0002o0-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 18:33:39 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:28:53 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: Gnome Web List Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001220122853.O1013@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: Gnome Web List References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> <3A40EB82.8927DDD3@websidestory.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A40EB82.8927DDD3@websidestory.com>; from mark@websidestory.com on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:25:22AM -0800 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:25:22AM -0800, Mark Koopman wrote: > Michel Martens wrote: >> Couldn't we get access to the logs of www.gnome.org? I think it could be a >> good starting point to see what are the visitors requesting. That will give >> us the big picture of what is important for the users and will give us a >> good idea of how we could arrange the site's navigation structure to meet >> their requirements. > and for the new site, (this might sound a bit egotistic), i recommend we > install a HitBox counter, get.hitbox.com. It's put out by the company > i > work for, WebSideStory. the counter is trivial to integrate into a site > and provides 24-7 real-time stats. hey, i think we have site analysis > down > pat. it's worth a thought and if anyone gives this more serious > consideration, > i'll see what i can do as far as having an Account donated to the > project. For the GNOME site to use a proprietary system like this, even if the license was "donated" to the site, would be completely and utterly unthinkable. Free your software, then we can talk. I can't see how this is much more useful than webalizer anyway. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From thom@planetarytramp.net Wed Dec 20 12:38:19 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from proxy.jakinternet.co.uk (proxy.jakinternet.co.uk [212.187.250.66]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A35ED2BD56 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:38:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.jakinternet.co.uk (smtp.jakinternet.co.uk [212.187.250.72]) by proxy.jakinternet.co.uk (Postfix) with SMTP id CA814A7700 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 18:34:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from emancipation.planetarytramp.net ([194.88.79.192]) by smtp.jakinternet.co.uk ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:37:59 -0000 Received: by emancipation.planetarytramp.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 215A11AE5E; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:37:55 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:37:55 +0000 From: Thom May To: Michel Martens , gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001220173754.E24093@emancipation> Mail-Followup-To: Michel Martens , gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="wtjvnLv0o8UUzur2" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield>; from michel@expocentro.com on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:19:28AM -0300 X-Operating-System: Linux/2.2.17-ide (i686) Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work --wtjvnLv0o8UUzur2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Michel, Owen posted a link to the logs for most of the gnome machines; this is a link to the mail archive of that post: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-web-list/2000-November/msg00087.html HTH -Thom * Michel Martens (michel@expocentro.com) wrote : > >=20 > Couldn't we get access to the logs of www.gnome.org? I think it could be a > good starting point to see what are the visitors requesting. That will gi= ve > us the big picture of what is important for the users and will give us a > good idea of how we could arrange the site's navigation structure to meet > their requirements. >=20 > Michel. >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > gnome-web-list mailing list > gnome-web-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-web-list --wtjvnLv0o8UUzur2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjpA7nIACgkQs10SPRMEYVXwaQCfRLQKq4tVTqlz9HpIDPDjSZMk ZvAAnjxukWUHFXQ/Ae0/8TDBgpqUf895 =97Vx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --wtjvnLv0o8UUzur2-- From mark@websidestory.com Wed Dec 20 12:55:21 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.websidestory.com (mail1.websidestory.com [208.232.223.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F09C2DF2F for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:55:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from websidestory.com (pip-1.hitbox.com [209.75.20.72]) by mail1.websidestory.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id eBKHtKE11462 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:55:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A40F3AF.4F722EFB@websidestory.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:00:15 -0800 From: Mark Koopman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> <20001220173754.E24093@emancipation> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Thom May wrote: > > Hi Michel, > Owen posted a link to the logs for most of the gnome machines; > this is a link to the mail archive of that post: > > http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-web-list/2000-November/msg00087.html > Logs show this: Program started at Wed-20-Dec-2000 00:00. Analysed requests from Tue-31-Dec-1996 19:15 to Wed-20-Dec-2000 00:00 (1449.2 days). Directory Report #reqs: pages: directory --------: -------: --------- 71622830: 190: /images/ 2102723: 1348900: [root directory] 1324279: 604703: /applist/ 228694: 120716: /gnome-office/ 200024: 196679: /start/ 95088: 95087: /faqs/ 76820: 62083: /projects/ 51062: 51062: /resources/ 33919: 33919: /learn/ 31242: 31242: /intro/ 28839: 355: http:// 27877: 13600: /todo/ 15071: 12501: /~michael/ 7892: 7103: /~drc/ 7207: 7204: /i18n/ 5723: 5016: /developerinterviews/ 5158: 4907: /cgi-bin/ 4200: 4200: /developers/ 3037: 2474: /~ole/ 1111: 698: /~sopwith/ 890: 161: /~cgabriel/ 784: 540: /~chrisime/ 551: 1: [no directory] 220: 146: /~msw/ 180: 163: /ftp/ http://??? what is that? only 180 ftp requests....do we feel that's an accurate number of ftp requests made in approx 4 years? i dont think so, or else we're looking at the wrong server logs. HitBox has the benefit of being server-independent and one Account code could analyze any number of servers. #!/usr/local/bin/perl # Mark Koopman - mark@websidestory.com # Software Engineer # # WebSideStory, Inc # # 10182 Telesis Court # San Diego CA 92121 # 858.546.1182.##.318 # 858.546.0480.fax eval(lc(join('', map ({chr}(q( 49877273766940 80827378843973 32767986693280 69827639463932 39883673434341 ))=~/../g)))); From gleblanc@cu-portland.edu Wed Dec 20 12:59:51 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from email.cu-portland.edu (unknown [207.149.56.67]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE6AB2DF03 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:59:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from grego1.cu-portland.edu (207.149.56.153 [207.149.56.153]) by email.cu-portland.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id XNSRM085; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:59:49 -0800 Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal From: Gregory Leblanc To: Gnome Web List In-Reply-To: <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.8 (Developer Preview) Date: 20 Dec 2000 10:00:17 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20001220175950.DE6AB2DF03@mail.gnome.org> Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On 20 Dec 2000 09:19:28 -0300, Michel Martens wrote: > > On 2000.12.20 01:12:48 -0300 Matt McClanahan wrote: > > > > > > I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" > > not > > > being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick > > links". Hm. > > > Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than > > my > > > proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be > > > improved further. > > > > I'd tend to agree on the News, but I've never seen downloads as being a > > 'primary' link off of the landing page. I suppose access logs could > > easilly prove me wrong, but putting it under software makes sense to me. > > Wouldn't there be a brief news summary on the landing page anyway, which > > could then provide the direct link to the news page? > > > > Couldn't we get access to the logs of www.gnome.org? I think it could be a > good starting point to see what are the visitors requesting. That will give > us the big picture of what is important for the users and will give us a > good idea of how we could arrange the site's navigation structure to meet > their requirements. Hey, don't you read the list? :) Owen posted this stuff a while ago, you can get his message at http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-web-list/2000-November/msg00087.html Greg From thom@planetarytramp.net Wed Dec 20 13:18:50 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from proxy.jakinternet.co.uk (proxy.jakinternet.co.uk [212.187.250.66]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B98262CB76 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:18:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.jakinternet.co.uk (smtp.jakinternet.co.uk [212.187.250.72]) by proxy.jakinternet.co.uk (Postfix) with SMTP id BFF8CA7934 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:15:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from emancipation.planetarytramp.net ([194.88.79.192]) by smtp.jakinternet.co.uk ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 18:17:59 -0000 Received: by emancipation.planetarytramp.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 259751AE5E; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 18:17:56 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 18:17:56 +0000 From: Thom May To: Mark Koopman , gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001220181755.F24093@emancipation> Mail-Followup-To: Mark Koopman , gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> <20001220173754.E24093@emancipation> <3A40F3AF.4F722EFB@websidestory.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="w2JjAQZceEVGylhD" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3A40F3AF.4F722EFB@websidestory.com>; from mark@websidestory.com on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 10:00:15AM -0800 X-Operating-System: Linux/2.2.17-ide (i686) Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work --w2JjAQZceEVGylhD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * Mark Koopman (mark@websidestory.com) wrote : (loads of advertising) Mark,=20 I appreciate your enthusiasm for you product, and can understand it! I know i get excited when th company I work for releases a great product. However, it is _not_ appropriate to use a list in this manner for advertising a product, nor is it possible for Gnome to _ever_ use a proprietary product such as yours, until or unless it is released with a DFSG compatible license (I'm using DFSG as it's the best generic OSS definition, I think, see http://www.debian.org/social_contract ) cheers -Thom --w2JjAQZceEVGylhD Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjpA99MACgkQs10SPRMEYVVkowCeIb5S6hUj0BxM8N0kycGghIsz RrEAnA4CWb9o6L0q498U12MYhGKZL297 =QhdJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --w2JjAQZceEVGylhD-- From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Wed Dec 20 13:23:42 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52DA42DF40 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:20:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148ns1-0002WZ-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:21:46 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:16:57 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001220131657.Q1013@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> <20001220173754.E24093@emancipation> <3A40F3AF.4F722EFB@websidestory.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A40F3AF.4F722EFB@websidestory.com>; from mark@websidestory.com on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 10:00:15AM -0800 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 10:00:15AM -0800, Mark Koopman wrote: > Thom May wrote: > http://??? what is that? Most likely a malformed request of some sort. > only 180 ftp requests....do we feel that's an accurate number > of ftp requests made in approx 4 years? i dont think so, or else > we're looking at the wrong server logs. Since these are the HTTP server logs, I'm not surprised. > HitBox has the benefit > of being server-independent and one Account code could analyze > any number of servers. Please stop shamelessly promoting your proprietary software on this list. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From mark@websidestory.com Wed Dec 20 13:25:00 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.websidestory.com (mail1.websidestory.com [208.232.223.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC3F02BB09 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:24:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from websidestory.com (pip-1.hitbox.com [209.75.20.72]) by mail1.websidestory.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id eBKIOxE13824 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:24:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A40FAA2.138CDE25@websidestory.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:29:54 -0800 From: Mark Koopman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> <20001220173754.E24093@emancipation> <3A40F3AF.4F722EFB@websidestory.com> <20001220181755.F24093@emancipation> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Thom May wrote: > > * Mark Koopman (mark@websidestory.com) wrote : > (loads of advertising) > Mark, > I appreciate your enthusiasm for you product, and can understand > it! I know i get excited when th company I work for releases a > great product. > However, it is _not_ appropriate to use a list in this manner > for advertising a product, nor is it possible for Gnome to > _ever_ use a proprietary product such as yours, until or unless > it is released with a DFSG compatible license (I'm using DFSG as it's > the best generic OSS definition, I think, see > http://www.debian.org/social_contract ) > cheers > -Thom > that's fine, i understand. i was offering a free version of the product, but that wasn't so clearly stated by myself from the beginning. keep on truckin' -- #!/usr/local/bin/perl # Mark Koopman - mark@websidestory.com # Software Engineer # # WebSideStory, Inc # # 10182 Telesis Court # San Diego CA 92121 # 858.546.1182.##.318 # 858.546.0480.fax eval(lc(join('', map ({chr}(q( 49877273766940 80827378843973 32767986693280 69827639463932 39883673434341 ))=~/../g)))); From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Wed Dec 20 13:44:36 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 565952BB01 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:44:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148oF5-0004bR-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:45:35 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:40:48 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001220134048.T1013@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> <20001220173754.E24093@emancipation> <3A40F3AF.4F722EFB@websidestory.com> <20001220181755.F24093@emancipation> <3A40FAA2.138CDE25@websidestory.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A40FAA2.138CDE25@websidestory.com>; from mark@websidestory.com on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 10:29:54AM -0800 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 10:29:54AM -0800, Mark Koopman wrote: > Thom May wrote: >> * Mark Koopman (mark@websidestory.com) wrote : >> (loads of advertising) >> Mark, >> I appreciate your enthusiasm for you product, and can understand >> it! I know i get excited when th company I work for releases a >> great product. >> However, it is _not_ appropriate to use a list in this manner >> for advertising a product, nor is it possible for Gnome to >> _ever_ use a proprietary product such as yours, until or unless >> it is released with a DFSG compatible license (I'm using DFSG as it's >> the best generic OSS definition, I think, see >> http://www.debian.org/social_contract ) >> cheers > that's fine, i understand. i was offering a free version of the > product, but that wasn't so clearly stated by myself from the beginning. Free software is not a matter of price, but of freedom. That is, you would have to release source under a DFSG-compliant license for it to be considered free software. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From digitect@mindspring.com Wed Dec 20 20:34:09 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from hall.mail.mindspring.net (hall.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.60]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 589E72D26E for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 20:34:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf2sp.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.139.153]) by hall.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA22238 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 20:34:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <002e01c06aee$1d6828a0$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: Subject: Fw: Really Quick Mockup Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 20:34:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Oops. Meant to send this to the list, too. From: "digitect" To: "Ryan Muldoon" Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 7:40 AM Subject: Re: Really Quick Mockup Some general comments about Ryan's structure and the discussion in general... ____________________________________________________________ Ryan Muldoon's structure A B O U T ScreenShots Press Kit FAQ Contributors C O M M U N I T Y Support GNOME Roadmap Project of the Week Developer Interviews Mailing Lists Events News D E V E L O P M E N T Tutorials Whitepapers API Reference CVS F O U N D A T I O N Charter Meeting Minutes Board Members Adisory Board Membership P R O J E C T S Localization Documentation UI Improvement Icons Sound S O F T W A R E Application List Bugzilla Download ____________________________________________________________ 1. "Download" is a snare. It means two different things. For the user, Download means "Get It". For the developer, Download means "Here's a new version of an app you can try". We need to have some sort of "Get the Whole Core" place for users with easy instructions and HowTos for newbies. I think our current Download section is much more suited to the developer. I definitely agree with the current direction we're headed for a clear outline structure with quick link/headline shortcuts into the structure from the front page or other. The entire content needs to be organized in a clear structural format, but we'll always need to jump across it. (After all, this is why Al Gore invented they hyperlink.) So in regards to my Download dilema above, maybe we're just talking about creating a quick link to a new user section of downloads from the front page. 2. To me, in the structure above, "Foundation" seems to have a disproportionate share of visual realestate. I think I'd prefer to see it as a single jump from Community or About. I realize that they're important, but I'm guessing that very few visitors will want to use this section. The few important ones that do, can easily be transported to a whole corporate section of the site. (I'd also suggest making a History section so that folks can read up on the history of GNOME and be pointed to a history of GNU, and possibly Linux/BSD/Unix.) Otherwise this is a great structure and I vote we stop suggesting new ones and just develop this one. (Not that development alone won't turn it on its head.) I think we need to develop this by now trying to describe the third tier of areas and really try to be exhaustive with all the content we know about (like project for example). I'm sure we're going to find at least one major adjustment that needs to be made. (And BTW, I might suggest that we do this in HTML, or at least post a "latest copy" so that we don't all get confused.) Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From webmaven@lvcm.com Wed Dec 20 22:22:22 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams4.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.78]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 435312C10B for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:22:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.231.69]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:23:47 -0800 Message-ID: <3A4195CC.80CF85C@lvcm.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:31:56 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <20001219235007.H1013@helixcode.com> <3A40F218.A3A42DD1@lvcm.com> <20001220111307.J1013@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:53:28AM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: > > Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > > > > > While nice in theory, I think this falls into the "too much abstraction" > > > trap. Yes, it's a really nicely topical, logical hierarchy, but people expect > > > stuff like "Development" to be a top level header. > > > > I disagree. I think it's worth not creating a mixed > > noun/verb categorization schema, and you'll actually confuse > > people more if you don't excersize retsraint in this regard. > > If I'm looking for documentation, do I find it under > > 'Software' or under 'Development'? > > I've never heard of cases where a "mixed noun/verb categorization schema" has > ever led to problems. Indeed, the stilted terms or overly broad/narrow > ctegories you create by trying to stick to one would likely be a bigger > problem. Sorry, noun/verb is my own terminology. Topical vs. functional, or subject-oriented vs. task-oriented would be the more usual way to describe it, I suppose. Have you read 'Information Architecture for the World Wide Web' by Louis Rosenfeld and Peter Moreville? Chapter 3 deals with this specific issue of organization schemas, and the point is made that hybrid schemas are more confusing because it's impossible to form a mental model of the site. The book is published by O'Reilly, and I can reccomend it unconditionally to anyone who designs websites. Here is are two small (relevant) quotes: "The power of a pure organization scheme derives from it's ability to suggest a simple mental model for users to quickly understand. Users easily recognize an audience specific or topical organization. However, when you start blending elements of multiple schemes, confusion is almost guaranteed." "Hybrid Schemas are common on the web. This happens because it is often dificult to agree upon any one scheme to present on the main page, so people throw the elements of multiple schemes together in a confusing mix. There is a better alternative. In cases where multiple schemes must be presented on one page, you should communicate to designers the importance of retaining the integrity of each scheme. As long as the schemes are presented separately on the page, they retain the powerful ability to suggest a mental model for users." > Remember, even extremely usability tested software, such as > everything coming out of Apple, has top-level menu items like "File", "Edit", > "Tools" and "Window". You've made the point yourself that the website shouldn't emulate the desktop, but I'll still point out that websites are primarily comprised of content, whereas desktop applications are primarily tools for content creation and manipulation. You are correct that mixing schemas in menus are not much of a usability problem *once you've learned the platforms' conventions*. Users will not be willing to spend as much time learning the structure of your site as they have been willing to learn the conventions of their chosen desktop environment. > > Also, keep in mind that one of the goals of your > > categorization schema should be maintainability. If you come > > up with new content, it should be immediately obvious and > > crystal clear which topic it falls under, and if you're > > creating a new category in the future, it should be > > immediately obvious whether it's a sub-category of an > > existing topic, of if it's a new top-level category. > > This isn't going to happen. No matter how perfect your categorization schema, > there will always be data that doesn't fit. Of course. But it will be immediately obvious when it doesn't fit and you must simply decide whether it requires a new sub-category or a new top level category, which is vastly preferable to a situation arising where you're unsure where to place a new document. If I want to create downloadable printable manuals, do I put a download category in 'Documentation', or a printable documentation category in 'Download'? If you have a topical heirarchy it's obvious that you need a 'Download this document in a printable format' task oriented link from each relevant page, so the problem never arises. Now, if you want to have a separate navigation device on the front page that contains links to the most common tasks, the problem is solved. you can dedicate screen real-estate to those tasks without polluting a topical heirarchy with task oriented top level items. So you can have a task-oriented quick link to 'download all documentation in a printable format' that is not part of the main navigation. With a completely database-driven site architecture, maintaining multiple site navigation schemas is not any more of a problem than maintaining one. All you have to do is make sure that content is tagged with the appropriate meta-information when it is added, according to whatever (and however many) schemas you want, and navigation options can be dynamically generated based on this information. > In your four top level > categories, you might have avoided this problem on the top level, because the > categories are so vague, but it'll just come back to haunt you on the level > below. I don't think that the categories I've defined are vague. They are broad, true, but they are also mutually exclusive. On the contrary, vagueness comes from having categories that overlap to a significant degree, which is exactly what I'm trying to avoid. Now, it is true that more than four top level categories are desireable, and I'm certainly open to suggestions of content that does not fit into the divisions that I've proposed, But given the content that's been suggested so far, I don't see where any additional top level *topical* categories are possible. > Given a reasonablys malls et of data, like we have, you're not going o > be able to construct a balanced and symmetrical category tree, because you > can't specialize enough without ending up with just one or two documents in > each category. The sub-categorization does not have to be as deep in all places on the tree. If a site section does not have enough content to warant further sub-categorization, then it doesn't, and shouldn't be. Cheers, Michael Bernstein. From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Wed Dec 20 22:57:53 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D366A2BB13 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:57:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148wsa-0003fS-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 04:58:57 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:54:09 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001220225409.A1013@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <20001219235007.H1013@helixcode.com> <3A40F218.A3A42DD1@lvcm.com> <20001220111307.J1013@helixcode.com> <3A4195CC.80CF85C@lvcm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A4195CC.80CF85C@lvcm.com>; from webmaven@lvcm.com on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:31:56PM -0800 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:31:56PM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: This is getting very, very long, so I'm going to just cut and summarize/answer. Basically, there are two separate issues here, which I think we're confusing a little. First of all, there's the discussion of whether or not we should use a hybrid task/category scheme, or a pure scheme. Secondly, there's the issue of four top-level categories being too few, in my opinion. Now, for the hybrid versus pure issue, sure, it's fine to have a pure schema, if it's possible, and doesn't deform an otherwise logical tree. For instance, you've created four top level categories which seem to be able to hold all the information we have on the site. But is it possible to continue with a pure schema on the second level of navigation? How deep will the tree be with this method versus a hybrid schema? How wide? I'd argue that particularly since hybrid schemas are so common on the web, people are used to them, and don't have to expel much mental effort to figure them out. As a thought experiment, take your four categories and turn two of them into tasks (pretty easy, just put a verb in front of the noun, like "Learn about the GNOME Foundation"). It's not much harder to figure out (ignoring that the label is long and unwieldy). It seems to me that the usability difference is vastly larger from adjusting the boundaries between categories than it is when adjusting between hybrid and non-hybrid schemas. As for your four categories, yes, they're mutually exclusive, and yes, they cover all the topics. But the fact that there are only four of them suggests to me that they would need rethinking and/or splitting up. As they are, they'd result in at least three more levels of navigation under them, since they're so broad and abstract. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Fri Dec 22 03:13:41 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from qonos.softcomca.com (qonos.softcomca.com [168.144.1.157]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB6382CF0C for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 03:13:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from qonos.softcomca.com [168.144.1.157] by qonos.softcomca.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.00) id AD1831250054; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 03:13:12 -0500 X-Originating-IP: 140.186.103.95 X-URL: http://www.mail2web.com/ Subject: Re: Re: Really Quick Mockup From: "rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu" Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 03:13:12 -0500 To: "joakim@helixcode.com" Cc: "gnome-web-list@gnome.org" Reply-To: rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Mailer: JMail 3.7.0 by Dimac (www.dimac.net) Message-Id: <200012220313660.SM00336@qonos.softcomca.com> Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work >Looks nice. I have a couple of problems with the colors. Basically, >everything looks like I turned brightness on my monitor up a few notches. >Everything's very low contrast and hard to read (especially the body text). The body text is definitely one of the things I wanted to think about. I like the charcoal, and find it to be a bit "sof= ter," but I don't know how usable it is. I'd have no problem switching to black if that is what we agree on. But I do t= hink that the charcoal is nicer. >I'd like to see some darker colors thrown into the mix, this is a >bit "wimpy" for my taste. I definitely want to use some stronger colors. I tried to initially, but you can't use dark colors for the background of= dark text. I have an aversion to white text, so I tried to make things work nicely with black text. My thinking was th= at the highlight colors would be the lighter shade of the main color for the particular sections. That would give us the= darker colors. Another way is to use a (gnomeish) icon for the section headers. It would make the page a little more i= nteresting, I think. I like how digitect tried to use icons initially. I don't think we should have one for every menu = item, but for sections, it might be nice. That does, of course, put greater requirements on the artists of the group. I= know I can't make nice icons, so I didn't want to push it as a requirement. But if someone is able to do them, it would= look good. --Ryan ------------------------------------------------------------------- This message has been posted from Mail2Web http://www.mail2web.com/ Web Hosting for $9.95 per month! Visit: http://www.yourhosting.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------- From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Fri Dec 22 03:23:38 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from m2w037 (M2W037.mail2web.com [168.144.108.37]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3909D2DB6A for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 03:23:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from m2w037 [168.144.108.37] by m2w037 with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.00) id AF961B9A013A; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 03:23:50 -0500 X-Originating-IP: 140.186.103.95 X-URL: http://www.mail2web.com/ Subject: Re: Re: Navigation Proposal From: "rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu" Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 03:23:50 -0500 To: "joakim@helixcode.com" , "gnome-web-list@gnome.org" Reply-To: rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Mailer: JMail 3.7.0 by Dimac (www.dimac.net) Message-Id: <200012220323626.SM01212@m2w037> Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work I'm just going to add my (Agreeing) comments below.... On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:31:56PM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: >This is getting very, very long, so I'm going to just cut and >summarize/answer. >Basically, there are two separate issues here, which I think we're >confusing >a little. First of all, there's the discussion of whether or not we should >use a hybrid task/category scheme, or a pure scheme. Secondly, there's the >issue of four top-level categories being too few, in my opinion. >Now, for the hybrid versus pure issue, sure, it's fine to have a pure >schema, >if it's possible, and doesn't deform an otherwise logical tree. For >instance, >you've created four top level categories which seem to be able to hold all >the information we have on the site. But is it possible to continue with a >pure schema on the second level of navigation? How deep will the tree be >with this method versus a hybrid schema? How w= ide? I agree. The doubt that a completely pure navigation structure is possible all the way through the site. And if it is, i= t will probably be at the cost of usability, which is what you're wanting to preserve. >I'd argue that particularly since hybrid schemas are so common on the web, >people are used to them, and don't have to expel much mental effort to >figure >them out. As a thought experiment, take your four categories and turn two >of >them into tasks (pretty easy, just put a verb in front of the noun, like >"Learn about the GNOME Foundation"). It's not much harder to figure out >(ignoring that the label is long and unwieldy). It seems to me that the >usability difference is vastly larger from adjusting the boundaries between >categories than it is when adjusting between hybrid and non-hybrid schemas. I agree. It was stated that hybrid schemes are common.....so people are already used to it. >As for your four categories, yes, they're mutually exclusive, and yes, they >cover all the topics. But the fact that there are only four of them >suggests >to me that they would need rethinking and/or splitting up. As they are, >they'd result in at least three more levels of navigation under them, since >they're so broad and abstract. This is my main gripe - 4 is definitely too few. 10 was too much. I wouldn't go for more than 7, but I think that my 6 = sections work pretty well. I'm sure that they can be refined more, but I think that it should be what we're working with= (at least for the sake of getting something done). 4 sections will require too many extra clicks to get at actual conte= nt. We shouldn't need more than 2 or 3 clicks to get to everything. Too few sections also means more information goes i= n each section. That ends up being a problem of information overload - we want to provide bite-sized pieces, not slabs o= f information. It is more usable to have a moderate number of sections, each of which only have a moderate number of sub= sections. If you do in either direction, you are going to end up with too much information somewhere. We should avoid t= hat. --Ryan ------------------------------------------------------------------- This message has been posted from Mail2Web http://www.mail2web.com/ Web Hosting for $9.95 per month! Visit: http://www.yourhosting.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------- From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Fri Dec 22 12:29:33 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDB112BDDC for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 12:29:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 149W0Z-0000bE-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 18:29:32 +0100 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 12:25:58 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: "gnome-web-list@gnome.org" Subject: Re: Re: Really Quick Mockup Message-ID: <20001222122558.C9263@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: "gnome-web-list@gnome.org" References: <200012220313660.SM00336@qonos.softcomca.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012220313660.SM00336@qonos.softcomca.com>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 03:13:12AM -0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 03:13:12AM -0500, rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu wrote: >> Looks nice. I have a couple of problems with the colors. Basically, >> everything looks like I turned brightness on my monitor up a few notches. >> Everything's very low contrast and hard to read (especially the body text). > The body text is definitely one of the things I wanted to think about. I > like the charcoal, and find it to be a bit "softer," but I don't know how > usable it is. I'd have no problem switching to black if that is what we > agree on. But I do think that the charcoal is nicer. I think it would have to be either black or quite a few shades darker. IT does indeed look "softer", but that's also part of the problem. >> I'd like to see some darker colors thrown into the mix, this is a bit >> "wimpy" for my taste. > I definitely want to use some stronger colors. I tried to initially, but > you can't use dark colors for the background of dark text. I have an > aversion to white text, so I tried to make things work nicely with black > text. My thinking was that the highlight colors would be the lighter shade > of the main color for the particular sections. That would give us the darker > colors. Another way is to use a (gnomeish) icon for the section headers. It > would make the page a little more interesting, I think. I like how digitect > tried to use icons initially. I don't think we should have one for every > menu item, but for sections, it might be nice. That does, of course, put > greater requirements on the artists of the group. I know I can't make nice > icons, so I didn't want to push it as a requirement. But if someone is able > to do them, it would look good. Strong colors should probably come into play in edges, accents, icons, and so on. I'm still uncertain about requiring icons, just because of the obstacle it presents when you need to add something. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From mandreiana@rdsnet.ro Sat Dec 23 02:50:06 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail.rdsnet.ro (mail.rdsnet.ro [193.231.236.16]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B3B4A2BD9F for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 02:49:16 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 8172 invoked from network); 23 Dec 2000 07:51:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO rdsnet.ro) (212.93.133.179) by mail.rdsnet.ro with SMTP; 23 Dec 2000 07:51:17 -0000 Message-ID: <3A4458FB.6A1853A0@rdsnet.ro> Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 09:49:15 +0200 From: Marius Andreiana Organization: Web Development Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ryan Muldoon Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Really Quick Mockup References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <200012200715.BAA171370@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <200012200733.BAA57916@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Shouldn't the navigation links be top level ? I think this was discussed and agreed that they eat to much space on the left side. Use menus like http://www.gnome.org/todo/index.php3 (left margin too big) -- Marius Andreiana From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Sat Dec 23 03:03:07 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from m2w021.mail2web.com (M2W021.mail2web.com [168.144.108.21]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 652902BAC2 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 03:03:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from m2w021.mail2web.com [168.144.108.21] by m2w021.mail2web.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.00) id AC227A33012C; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 03:02:42 -0500 X-Originating-IP: 140.186.102.236 X-URL: http://www.mail2web.com/ Subject: Re: Re: Re: Really Quick Mockup From: "rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu" Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 03:02:42 -0500 To: "joakim@helixcode.com" , "gnome-web-list@gnome.org" Reply-To: rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Mailer: JMail 3.7.0 by Dimac (www.dimac.net) Message-Id: <200012230302331.SM00269@m2w021.mail2web.com> Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Original Message: ----------------- From: Joakim Ziegler joakim@helixcode.com Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 12:25:58 -0600 Subject: Re: Re: Really Quick Mockup On Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 03:13:12AM -0500, rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu wrote: >> Looks nice. I have a couple of problems with the colors. Basically, >> everything looks like I turned brightness on my monitor up a few notches. >> Everything's very low contrast and hard to read (especially the body text). > The body text is definitely one of the things I wanted to think about. I > like the charcoal, and find it to be a bit "softer," but I don't know how > usable it is. I'd have no problem switching to black if that is what we > agree on. But I do think that the charcoal is nicer. I think it would have to be either black or quite a few shades darker. IT does indeed look "softer", but that's also part of the problem. ok.......I can concede that if I must. ;-) >> I'd like to see some darker colors thrown into the mix, this is a bit >> "wimpy" for my taste. > I definitely want to use some stronger colors. I tried to initially, but > you can't use dark colors for the background of dark text. I have an > aversion to white text, so I tried to make things work nicely with black > text. My thinking was that the highlight colors would be the lighter shade > of the main color for the particular sections. That would give us the darker > colors. Another way is to use a (gnomeish) icon for the section headers. It > would make the page a little more interesting, I think. I like how digitect > tried to use icons initially. I don't think we should have one for every > menu item, but for sections, it might be nice. That does, of course, put > greater requirements on the artists of the group. I know I can't make nice > icons, so I didn't want to push it as a requirement. But if someone is able > to do them, it would look good. Strong colors should probably come into play in edges, accents, icons, and so on. I'm still uncertain about requiring icons, just because of the obstacle it presents when you need to add something. I agree that those places are where strong colors would come in......so is there something that we are disagreeing o= n here? I don't think so, but maybe I'm not seeing it. I agree that icons add extra work, but doing them for sections l= essens the burden, because I doubt that we'll be changing sections that much. And we need some kind of art, to make the = pages not feel overly text-heavy (like my current mockup). I won't have time to make any changes on my stuff until after Christmas....if someone else wants to, feel free to. After= the 25th I should have some time though. --Ryan ------------------------------------------------------------------- This message has been posted from Mail2Web http://www.mail2web.com/ Web Hosting for $9.95 per month! Visit: http://www.yourhosting.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------- From webmaven@lvcm.com Sat Dec 23 16:09:22 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams2.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.76]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFC572BD85 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 16:09:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.231.69]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Sat, 23 Dec 2000 13:09:12 -0800 Message-ID: <3A45331D.CE46004C@lvcm.com> Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 15:19:57 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <20001219235007.H1013@helixcode.com> <3A40F218.A3A42DD1@lvcm.com> <20001220111307.J1013@helixcode.com> <3A4195CC.80CF85C@lvcm.com> <20001220225409.A1013@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Sorry it's taken me so long to reply, last minute holiday preparations can be a pain. Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:31:56PM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: > > Basically, there are two separate issues here, which I think we're confusing > a little. First of all, there's the discussion of whether or not we should > use a hybrid task/category scheme, or a pure scheme. Secondly, there's the > issue of four top-level categories being too few, in my opinion. I'll address them separately from now on, too. > Now, for the hybrid versus pure issue, sure, it's fine to have a pure schema, > if it's possible, and doesn't deform an otherwise logical tree. For instance, > you've created four top level categories which seem to be able to hold all > the information we have on the site. But is it possible to continue with a > pure schema on the second level of navigation? How deep will the tree be with > this method versus a hybrid schema? How wide? Of course it's possible. All content has a subject/topic. I'll post a follow up message with a complete tree as an illustration. > I'd argue that particularly since hybrid schemas are so common on the web, > people are used to them, and don't have to expel much mental effort to figure > them out. What you're really saying is that people don't bother to try and figure out an overall site structure, because on most sites they can't anyway. I don't disagree with *that*, but just because everyone is doing it wrong, does not mean we have to follow suit. If following the guideline of preferring a pure scheme results in an improved user experience, then I say we do so. If we wanted to accept the status-quo, we wouldn't be interested in GNOME in the first place. > As a thought experiment, take your four categories and turn two of > them into tasks (pretty easy, just put a verb in front of the noun, like > "Learn about the GNOME Foundation"). It's not much harder to figure out > (ignoring that the label is long and unwieldy). It seems to me that the > usability difference is vastly larger from adjusting the boundaries between > categories than it is when adjusting between hybrid and non-hybrid schemas. Mmm, I think you're confusing the issue here. What you've created is a noun/verb pair, which is a very specific combination. To make it an equivalent to the more inclusive 'Development' task category, you would have to label it 'Learn', after which the question naturally arises "learn about what?", which is answered in appropriate sub-categories, all of which then overlap in content with existing topical categories again (Learn about GNOME, Learn about the GNOME Foundation, etc.). The 'Development' category conceptually contains many different things that can be developed. You see, the problem with a hybrid schema is the fact that the mental model they suggest has classifications that conceptually overlap to a very significant degree, so that a user will likely guess wrong when trying to find something, thus forcing them to either learn the whole site map, spend extra time hunting around, or just break down and use the search function. With a 'pure' scheme, all the user must learn (or intuit) is the 'principle' behind the categories, and they will more likely be correct when they try to guess where something is. In the case of the current proposal, the 'Development' category and the 'Software' category conceptually overlap to a prohibitive extent, so decisions as to what to include in each are almost arbitrary, making it dificult to predict (or guess) what will be found in each. This leads to users clicking around more before they find what they're looking for, exactly the oposite effect from your intention to lead users to their goal using fewer clicks. If I'm looking for software documentation, will I automatically look for it in the 'Development' category? > As for your four categories, yes, they're mutually exclusive, and yes, they > cover all the topics. But the fact that there are only four of them suggests > to me that they would need rethinking and/or splitting up. As they are, > they'd result in at least three more levels of navigation under them, since > they're so broad and abstract. I'm all for refactoring the four categories I came up with into more (say six or seven) as long as it can be done within a topical categorization scheme. I'll see what I can come up with, and post a follow-up. I'm going to try and explain my position a little more clearly here, since it seems that part of my solution to your concerns for 'fewer clicks' has gone unnoticed. I apologize in advance for the length of my explanation. 'Navigation' in the context of website design has been conflated to include two concepts: Organization of content/functionality, and Wayfinding. The advantages of picking a pure schema (by subject, by audience, by task, etc) are chiefly on the organization side, making it simpler to decide what goes where, making it easier to categorize future additions to the content, and making it easier to decide to add new categories or sub-categories when appropriate. In other words, it increases maintainability by consistently factoring the content. It also has advantages with regard to wayfinding, in that it makes it easier for users to predict what area of the site will contain what they're looking for, once they've internalized the organization schema, and without forcing them to internalize the entire actual site structure. In other words, it makes a 'site-map' unneccessary. It sometimes *may* also have a wayfinding disadvantage, when more clicks are required to reach certain content. But wayfinding problems have many other solutions, while this is really the only way to improve organization. Here is one possible wayfinding solution that I've suggested before: Create an additional navigation device on the front page of the site, separate and distinct from the main navigation, that lists common tasks and leads to the correct section of the site. We can also create similar 'audience oriented' navigation to provide shortcuts for the press, developers, end-users, etc. The thing to keep in mind is that these additional wayfinding navbars do not compromise the *organization* of the sites content, which is still according to a pure topic oriented schema. I usually implement a secondary schema (as an example I'll use an Audience schema) by creating an 'Audience' directory that contains audience specific subdirectories, each with a single page of shortcuts specific to that audience. I don't add the 'Audience' directory into the main navigation, but instead create a second navigation bar or pick-list that only appears on the front page of the site, which lists the audiences, and links directly to 'their' shortcut page. This provides audience specific wayfinding, which then leads users directly to the content that is appropriate to them. Once on a content page, they can see (by looking at the main navigation) where they are in the site, and learn how the site is organized, so they can find their way around easier in the future. Here is the key, though: Since we have now separated audience-oriented wayfinding from the organization of the site, we can have the content of the audience specific shortcut pages overlap with each other and with the main schema without fear of confusing the site visitor. The same applies to creating any secondary wayfinding schema, including a task-oriented one, as seems appropriate in our case here. One difference between a task-oriented secondary navbar and an audience-oriented one, is that a task link is more likely to go directly to an existing page in the site, instead of to an intermediary page. I hope this helps explain the approach I'm advocating more completely. Michael Bernstein. From digitect@mindspring.com Sat Dec 23 18:57:39 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BF4B2BD74 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 18:57:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4ff.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.239]) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA10791 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 18:57:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <000501c06d3c$2255fd60$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <20001219235007.H1013@helixcode.com> <3A40F218.A3A42DD1@lvcm.com> <20001220111307.J1013@helixcode.com> <3A4195CC.80CF85C@lvcm.com> <20001220225409.A1013@helixcode.com> <3A45331D.CE46004C@lvcm.com> Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 18:57:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > From: "Michael Bernstein" > Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2000 6:19 PM > Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal > > . . . > > Here is one possible wayfinding solution that I've suggested > before: Create an additional navigation device on the front > page of the site, separate and distinct from the main > navigation, that lists common tasks and leads to the correct > section of the site. We can also create similar 'audience > oriented' navigation to provide shortcuts for the press, > developers, end-users, etc. The thing to keep in mind is > that these additional wayfinding navbars do not compromise > the *organization* of the sites content, which is still > according to a pure topic oriented schema. > I completely agree with Michael's other statements in this message, but this paragraph bears repeating. If we don't have a clear structure behind the scenes, authoring and maintainability will be pretty much impossible. Why not simply express this structure in the primary navigation scheme? Then the form and the content will have an architectural integrity that makes the site easy to navigate and doesn't require a lot of explanation for everybody that will have to interface with the design of the site at some point in its lifetime. We can *always* put subjective/topical shortcuts from any page to any other page. It's even possible to create whole micro-environments that have content referenced from all over the site for groups like the press, new users, kde users, etc. I wonder if we're struggling with a main structure because we haven't fleshed out a full outline of content. Sooner or later, somebody's going to have to do this ... why not now? Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From digitect@mindspring.com Sat Dec 23 19:27:12 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A47082BDAD for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 19:27:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4ff.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.239]) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA08248 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 19:27:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001b01c06d40$436b1680$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: Subject: Color boards Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 19:27:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work I've finished putting together color boards with some of the theoretical possibilities from my revised color palette at http://www.mindspring.com/~digitect/gnome/index.htm#colorboards. As you can see, the possibilities are pretty expansive with just a limited number of hues. As I said before, at some point we're going to have to take a flying leap into design. Maybe there's one more step of general layout (in grayscale) before we start forging comps. The color/graphics discussion seems to have waned again, so maybe there aren't too many of you who care about the theoretical side of colors and graphics. But I'd appreciate whatever critique anybody would offer, be it either theoretical or gut level. Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From thomasmueller@mail.com Fri Dec 29 16:48:41 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from pop162-leg.mail.com (pop162-leg.mail.com [165.251.32.54]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74DD62BCB1 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 2000 16:48:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.com (pD9036119.dip.t-dialin.net [217.3.97.25]) by pop162-leg.mail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B93281C3E3 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 2000 16:48:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3A4D14D6.7030303@mail.com> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 22:48:54 +0000 From: Thomas Mueller User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux 2.4.0-test1 i686; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001207 X-Accept-Language: de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org, gnome-web-list@gnome.org, gnome-web-list@gnome.org, gnome-web-list@gnome.org, gnome-web-list@gnome.org, gnome-web-list@gnome.org, gnome-web-list@gnome.org, gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: OAsis username Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Hi, I would like to contribute to bluefish and was told on the website that I have to register with OAsis and send my username to this address. Well, here it is: "ThomasMueller" Happy New Year! Thomas Mueller From shax82@hotmail.com Sun Dec 3 02:07:58 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from hotmail.com (oe5.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.236.109]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5D562BD6C for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2000 02:07:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 2 Dec 2000 23:07:24 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [200.53.168.85] From: "Felipe Contreras" To: "Gnome Web List" Subject: KISS Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 01:08:42 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C05CC5.93ED77A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Dec 2000 07:07:24.0239 (UTC) FILETIME=[AFCB55F0:01C05CF7] Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C05CC5.93ED77A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi everybody, I was wondering if everyone was really so quiet, or you = deleted me from the list : ) Anyway if you are there just take a look to this site, it's simple, = stupid, small but it's cool to me, sure we are going to make something a = little bit bigger, take a look and tell if it's somewhat the "look" that = the new gnome site will have. Felipe Contreras ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C05CC5.93ED77A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi everybody, I was wondering if = everyone was=20 really so quiet, or you deleted me from the list : )
Anyway if you are there just take a = look to this=20 site, it's simple, stupid, small but it's cool to me, sure we are going = to make=20 something a little bit bigger, take a look and tell if it's somewhat the = "look"=20 that the new gnome site will have.
 
Felipe = Contreras
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C05CC5.93ED77A0-- From mcsoccer@colyer.org Sat Dec 2 23:53:05 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from eve.speakeasy.net (eve.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.17]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C77B2BB53 for ; Sat, 2 Dec 2000 23:53:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from darkfusion.colyer.org (dsl254-096-109-nyc1.dsl-isp.net [216.254.96.109]) by eve.speakeasy.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id eB34oCX20812; Sat, 2 Dec 2000 20:50:13 -0800 Message-Id: <200012030450.eB34oCX20812@eve.speakeasy.net> Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 23:57:51 EST From: Matt Colyer To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Reply-To: mcsoccer@colyer.org X-Mailer: Spruce 0.7.2 for X11 w/smtpio 0.7.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: (no subject) Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Hello, It would be really nice if we could get some sever space at xxxx.gnome.org for development purposes. Such as hosting a developer/abilities db as well as all the proposals, design comps, requirements, and ideas that have been stated thus far. I was going to do this on another server but I wasn't sure if that was what your goal was with the proposal later Matt From David.Bellot@loria.fr Tue Dec 5 13:55:44 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lorraine.loria.fr (lorraine.loria.fr [152.81.1.17]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DF262E1B0 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 13:55:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from loria.fr (IDENT:david@vallois.loria.fr [152.81.7.64]) by lorraine.loria.fr (8.9.3/8.9.3/8.9.3/JCG-DG) with ESMTP id TAA24532; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 19:55:41 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <3A2D3B32.C95DE6DC@loria.fr> Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 20:00:03 +0100 From: David Bellot Organization: LORIA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16-22 i686) X-Accept-Language: fr-FR, fr, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: joakim@helixcode.com, gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: French localization of web sites and softwares Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Hi, I'm very interested in the localization of Gnome Software and Web sites. Actually, I'm the leader of the French Mozilla group. We are working actually on the M18 release in french and have already localized all precedent versions (web page is http://www.loria.fr/~bellot/mozilla.html). I have a little team with 12 persons, and I hope they could help too in maintaining and localizing web sites in french and perhaps other GNOME softwares. Localization for softwares and web sites in KDE project is simply great (and the leader of French Team in KDE is a good friend of me ;-). So, I hope to see the same work done in GNOME which is actually my favorite desktop. Mozilla is almost ready and we could work on other projects. I hope you're interested in it, and perhaps we'll work together to make GNOME the ultimate workbench ! Best Regards, David Bellot bellot@loria.fr From aidin@djesi.ba Tue Dec 5 16:56:43 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from happy-one.ssbljk (OSF-remote13.soros.org.ba [195.222.51.187]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C4ED2E1A6 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 16:56:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (aidin@localhost) by happy-one.ssbljk (8.10.2/8.10.2/SuSE Linux 8.10.0-0.3) with ESMTP id eB3EMdZ01218; Sun, 3 Dec 2000 15:22:39 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: happy-one.ssbljk: aidin owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 15:22:38 +0100 (CET) From: Aidin Alihodzic X-Sender: aidin@happy-one.ssbljk To: Felipe Contreras Cc: Gnome Web List Subject: Re: KISS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work which site? ;) sorry but I can't to find URL in your post... Haven't closed my eyes for 48 hours.... |-) argh... there is no any URL :-) Aidin On Sun, 3 Dec 2000, Felipe Contreras wrote: > Hi everybody, I was wondering if everyone was really so quiet, or you deleted me from the list : ) > Anyway if you are there just take a look to this site, it's simple, stupid, small but it's cool to me, sure we are going to make something a little bit bigger, take a look and tell if it's somewhat the "look" that the new gnome site will have. > > Felipe Contreras > From al593181@mail.mty.itesm.mx Tue Dec 5 18:34:49 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from webmail.mty.itesm.mx (webmail.mty.itesm.mx [131.178.2.83]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B02B92C926 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 18:34:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from felipecg (200.53.168.44) by webmail.mty.itesm.mx (5.1.054) id 3A2724C800013283; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 17:32:59 -0600 Message-ID: <000e01c05f14$2dc8e8a0$b09fb283@felipecg> From: "Felipe Contreras" To: "Aidin Alihodzic" Cc: "Gnome Web List" References: Subject: Re: KISS Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 17:36:20 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Damn! that's strange, http://www.linuxfromscratch.org, let's test it.. yea it is. Don't worry, now I've finished my finals, my mind is here again. : ) In what was I thinking? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aidin Alihodzic" To: "Felipe Contreras" Cc: "Gnome Web List" Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 8:22 AM Subject: Re: KISS > > which site? ;) > sorry but I can't to find URL in your post... Haven't closed my eyes for > 48 hours.... |-) argh... there is no any URL :-) > > Aidin > > On Sun, 3 Dec 2000, Felipe Contreras wrote: > > > Hi everybody, I was wondering if everyone was really so quiet, or you deleted me from the list : ) > > Anyway if you are there just take a look to this site, it's simple, stupid, small but it's cool to me, sure we are going to make something a little bit bigger, take a look and tell if it's somewhat the "look" that the new gnome site will have. > > > > Felipe Contreras > > > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-web-list mailing list > gnome-web-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-web-list > From digitect@mindspring.com Tue Dec 5 21:09:28 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from barry.mail.mindspring.net (barry.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.25]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FEF72BA9A for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:09:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4ei.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.210]) by barry.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA02057; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:09:24 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <005601c05f29$b228f3a0$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: "Felipe Contreras" Cc: "Gnome Web List" References: <000e01c05f14$2dc8e8a0$b09fb283@felipecg> Subject: Re: KISS Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:10:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > Damn! that's strange, http://www.linuxfromscratch.org, let's test it.. yea Hmmm, looks more KDE than GNOME, I'd say. Has the typical bars and colored areas, you know? Personally, I've been on a floating look lately, grey on white with accents of blue. Check out http://www.mindspring.com/~digitect/gnome-print/new/index.htm and my 15 minute GNOME comp at http://www.mindspring.com/~digitect/gnome/index.htm. Graphically, I'd like to see something less tech, more curvy, minimal and three-dimensional (or at least layered), and a little primitive/earthy looking, perhaps with a tad of carved in stone or rune-ish look like at my first link. I'm tired of colored bars everywhere. My two cents. From Uraeus@linuxrising.org Wed Dec 6 12:54:27 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mta01.chello.no (mta01.chello.no [212.186.255.12]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7E532BBE4 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 12:54:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from [192.168.0.131] ([212.186.233.38]) by mta01.chello.no (InterMail vK.4.02.00.00 201-232-116 license 77df2db80a2bdce4d335ff4839618d42) with ESMTP id <20001206175517.CVQB5083.mta01@[212.186.233.38]>; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 18:55:17 +0100 Subject: Who am I and what do I want to do for GNOME web From: Christian Schaller To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Cc: Joakim Ziegler Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 06 Oct 2000 15:54:44 -0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20001206175517.CVQB5083.mta01@[212.186.233.38]> Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Hi, I thought I should do what many others on the list have done before me and make a short presentation of myself and say something about how I plan to contribute. I have been following/parttaking in the GNOME effort now for since the 0.30 release. I am no coder (at least not of a usable level) so I have usually focused on doing advocacy stuff. This has included doing a lot of interviews and articles on GNOME which I have mostly published on Linuxpower.org and also help with arranging some GNOME related events, like helping IDG to get Michaek Meeks and Alan Cox to Oslo to do talks etc. I have also indirectly helped with the Norwegian translation by loaning Kjartan money ;) What do I want to do as part of the web team? Well, I am not interested in the choice of technology or page design, that I leave to the other able people on this list. What I want to do is continue as I have as a newshunter and editor for Gnotices and I also want to help maintain content. Currently I try to keep the mailing list page (http://www.gnome.org/resources/mailing-lists.html) resonanbly up to date, but I wouldn't mind helping out maintaining other parts of the GNOME website which could need some love. So if there are some parts of the website in desperate need of some content maintenance, please let me know. Christian From shax82@hotmail.com Sat Dec 9 21:59:27 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from hotmail.com (oe68.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.236.207]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50D392BB41 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 21:59:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 18:59:26 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [200.53.168.230] From: "Felipe Contreras" To: "Gnome Web List" Subject: Gnome test page Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 20:29:27 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0621E.BA24F8E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Dec 2000 02:59:26.0345 (UTC) FILETIME=[34C51F90:01C06255] Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0621E.BA24F8E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0006_01C0621E.BA24F8E0" ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C0621E.BA24F8E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, since there is no action in the list I did a sample of the front = page of the site. Sure there need to be lots of icons in order to make = the page look good, you know, one for each section of the site. For the ones that like lynx, this page looks pretty good. And for the ones that likes IE, sorry right now I've seen the page = doesn't look right. What do you think? ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C0621E.BA24F8E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well, since there is no action in the = list I did a=20 sample of the front page of the site. Sure there need to be lots of = icons in=20 order to make the page look good, you know, one for each section of the=20 site.
For the ones that like lynx, this page = looks pretty=20 good.
And for the ones that likes IE, sorry = right now=20 I've seen the page doesn't look right.
What do you = think?
------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C0621E.BA24F8E0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0621E.BA24F8E0 Content-Type: text/html; name="gnome2.html" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="gnome2.html" Gnome Test Page
3D"Gnome_logo"
Quote of the day: = Gnome rulez
Menu
Applications
Development
News
Download
Information
International
hmmmmmm, editorial?
Partners
GTK
GIMP
Linux
Kernel
Helix Code
OSDN
Gnome NEWS:
Hi, the news are....
no one is writting on the = list :-P
And tha..., o yea, Metatags
Gnome TIP:
Download GNOME from Helix Code. It's an organization = dedicated to make the GNOMe installation easier, so, It's better that = you download GNOMe from there.
Miscelanius:
Download GNOME from Helix Code
Here there will be anything, no matter about = what.
What the hell is GNOME
[Applications][Development][News][Download]
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0621E.BA24F8E0-- From hansolo@rochester.rr.com Sun Dec 10 00:01:24 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mailout1-1.nyroc.rr.com (mailout1-1.nyroc.rr.com [24.92.226.146]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F23D02BAC2 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 00:01:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from 2z2j10b (d185fd10d.rochester.rr.com [24.95.209.13]) by mailout1-1.nyroc.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA21127; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 23:56:48 -0500 (EST) From: "Alex" To: "Felipe Contreras" , "Gnome Web List" Subject: RE: Gnome test page Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 23:54:35 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Seems ok there are a few spelling issues though "Miscellaneous" is the correct spelling not "Miscelanius" And is there a reason why its spelled "GNOMe" several places? -Alex -----Original Message----- From: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org [mailto:gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org]On Behalf Of Felipe Contreras Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2000 9:29 PM To: Gnome Web List Subject: Gnome test page Well, since there is no action in the list I did a sample of the front page of the site. Sure there need to be lots of icons in order to make the page look good, you know, one for each section of the site. For the ones that like lynx, this page looks pretty good. And for the ones that likes IE, sorry right now I've seen the page doesn't look right. What do you think? From michaeld@senet.com.au Sun Dec 10 05:51:40 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from pluto.senet.com.au (pluto.senet.com.au [203.56.239.150]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6FD62BC8D for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 05:51:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from senet.com.au (c20-p50.senet.com.au [203.152.254.51]) by pluto.senet.com.au (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBAApY598537 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 21:21:35 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from michaeld@senet.com.au) Message-ID: <3A33603A.361C41B3@senet.com.au> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 21:21:38 +1030 From: Michael Davies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16-22 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GNOME Web List Subject: So where to from here? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work What's happenning with gnome-web? Are we waiting for Joakim's design document? Are we going to get working over the holidays? :-) -- Michael Davies "Do what you think is interesting, do something that michaeld@senet.com.au you think is fun and worthwhile, because otherwise you won't do it well anyway." -- Brian Kernighan. From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sun Dec 10 05:58:07 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA9B82BF4F for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 05:58:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 1454BB-000147-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 11:58:05 +0100 Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 05:55:21 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: GNOME Web List Subject: Re: So where to from here? Message-ID: <20001210055521.R21071@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: GNOME Web List References: <3A33603A.361C41B3@senet.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A33603A.361C41B3@senet.com.au>; from michaeld@senet.com.au on Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 09:21:38PM +1030 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 09:21:38PM +1030, Michael Davies wrote: > What's happenning with gnome-web? Are we waiting for Joakim's design > document? Are we going to get working over the holidays? :-) I'm actually writing it now. I've been a little stressed out lately, but I'm hoping to have it all done on Sunday evening/night. Please bear with me. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From mlee@andrews.edu Sun Dec 10 10:28:02 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp-server.tampabay.rr.com (smtp-server.tampabay.rr.com [65.32.1.34]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01D922BAB8 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 10:28:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from andrews.edu (24161225hfc63.tampabay.rr.com [24.161.225.63]) by smtp-server.tampabay.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13451 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 10:28:01 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 10:29:31 -0500 From: Martin Lee X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gnome Web List Subject: GNOME comp Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Since it all that's going on is people making test pages and designs, I thought I might as well jump on the bandwagon. Here's one of my ideas so far... http://www.infovariant.com/mlee/g.gif Don't get all upset if it isn't what you want, It's only an idea. Things can change... From newton@retemail.es Sun Dec 10 12:34:03 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp4s.retemail.es (smtp4.iddeo.es [62.81.31.73]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B65ED2BAB8 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 12:33:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from retemail.es ([62.174.96.45]) by smtp4s.retemail.es (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20001210173354.GGBG116110.smtp4s.retemail.es@retemail.es> for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 18:33:54 +0100 Message-ID: <3A34151F.891D2AF5@retemail.es> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 18:43:27 -0500 From: Antonio =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mart=EDnez=20=C1lvarez?= Organization: Proyecto Ciencia Libre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [es] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.17 i586) X-Accept-Language: en, es MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: unsubscribe 417320 newton@retemail.es Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work -- Antonio Martínez Álvarez, From digitect@mindspring.com Sun Dec 10 13:57:42 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mclean.mail.mindspring.net (mclean.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.57]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B58132BAB8 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 13:57:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4a3.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.67]) by mclean.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA02838 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 13:57:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <002a01c062db$37f77ce0$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: "Gnome Web List" References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> Subject: Re: GNOME comp Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 13:58:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > Here's one of my ideas so far... > > http://www.infovariant.com/mlee/g.gif Hey, I like it! Comments: * The four quadrant idea has a nice effect visually and organizationally. I think it expresses the matrix we have in the GNOME community between users and developers. So it is also fitting that the News and Software sections are at the intersection of these two groups. Any thought to what happens after the front page to the unused half of the matrix? (i.e., the Developer box when your in a user section, or vice-versa.) * I like the color palette. Warm gray is identifiably GNOME and I think we should stick to it, although I may suggest replacing the red with a warm blue, not only because of my personal taste but because it plays better on most monitors. Also, I'm not sure where the hexagon patterning comes from. * I'd like to see desktop-type icons used as navigational tools for the different sections. This would help overcome localization problems, contribute/utilize our icon library, and generally improve the impression of the site. Several of these are already in place and work well, for example: calendar, screenshots and help question mark (FAQ). * I don't think the current site's or this one's use of phrases is very helpful. I find single word links (if they're well chosen) to be much more useful in finding my way around a site. Tasks should be distilled down to one word and one icon to be truly successful. (i.e., "See GNOME in action" is much less clear than "Screenshots" even though the later is basically slang.) Obviously we're still working through all this, so I'm not trying to criticize the comp, just voice my opinion since it raised the issue for me. I guess we still haven't decided the main sections of the site, but it would be good if the design could some how reflect them. The two-sided approach you present is a great start if we never end up getting it more refined than that. Steve Hall [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From David.Bellot@loria.fr Sun Dec 10 10:34:58 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lorraine.loria.fr (lorraine.loria.fr [152.81.1.17]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29AA62BAB8 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 10:34:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from loria.fr (IDENT:david@vallois.loria.fr [152.81.7.64]) by lorraine.loria.fr (8.9.3/8.9.3/8.9.3/JCG-DG) with ESMTP id QAA20131 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 16:34:56 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <3A33A375.F1251FA0@loria.fr> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 16:38:29 +0100 From: David Bellot Organization: LORIA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16-22 i686) X-Accept-Language: fr-FR, fr, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Gnome Web List Subject: Re: GNOME comp References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Martin Lee wrote: > Since it all that's going on is people making test pages and designs, I > thought I might as well jump on the bandwagon. > > Here's one of my ideas so far... > > http://www.infovariant.com/mlee/g.gif > > Don't get all upset if it isn't what you want, It's only an idea. Things > can change... I found your design nice, but I prefer the new desing. In fact, the organization of the web page is better than the actual one. Could you mix the both ? And could you add more colors to make the page more fun. Old GNOME colors are not happy ! Best Regards, DB From ryan@devnut.com Sun Dec 10 20:55:36 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from web.olypen.com (olypen.com [208.200.248.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA2842BAFB for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 20:55:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from devnu(ppp-214.olypen.com[208.238.207.218]) (1921 bytes) by web.olypen.com via sendmail with P:smtp/R:inet_hosts/T:smtp (sender: ) id for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 17:59:56 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2.0.109 1999-Oct-27 #15 built 1999-Dec-15) From: "Ryan Christensen" To: "Gnome Web List" Subject: RE: So where to from here? Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 17:52:05 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20001210055521.R21071@helixcode.com> X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Don't feel rushed.. we'll stay as long as it takes.. :) Martin.. on your design.. looks pretty nice. Digitect basically took the words out of my mouth on opionion on it.. so I don't think I'll say much else. Ryan > -----Original Message----- > From: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org > [mailto:gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org]On Behalf Of Joakim Ziegler > Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2000 3:55 AM > To: GNOME Web List > Subject: Re: So where to from here? > > > On Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 09:21:38PM +1030, Michael Davies wrote: > > > What's happenning with gnome-web? Are we waiting for Joakim's design > > document? Are we going to get working over the holidays? :-) > > I'm actually writing it now. I've been a little stressed out > lately, but I'm > hoping to have it all done on Sunday evening/night. Please bear with me. > > -- > Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - > Radagast@IRC > FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer > http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-web-list mailing list > gnome-web-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-web-list > From mark@websidestory.com Mon Dec 11 11:29:56 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.websidestory.com (mail1.websidestory.com [208.232.223.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D6672DBA3 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 11:29:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from websidestory.com (mark.websidestory.com [208.232.223.60]) by mail1.websidestory.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id eBBGTsq03452 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 08:29:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A35023E.D150AC99@websidestory.com> Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 08:35:10 -0800 From: Mark Koopman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Gnome Web List Subject: Re: GNOME comp References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> <002a01c062db$37f77ce0$0201a8c0@pc001> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > > Here's one of my ideas so far... > > > > http://www.infovariant.com/mlee/g.gif > This is a beauty! #!/usr/local/bin/perl # Mark Koopman - mark@websidestory.com # Software Engineer # # WebSideStory, Inc # # 10182 Telesis Court # San Diego CA 92121 # 858.546.1182.##.318 # 858.546.0480.fax eval(lc(join('', map ({chr}(q( 49877273766940 80827378843973 32767986693280 69827639463932 39883673434341 ))=~/../g)))); From hedgehog@strogino.ru Mon Dec 11 15:58:30 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from hellfire.strogino.ru (hellfire.strogino.ru [212.45.8.27]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8790E2BB47 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 15:58:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from hedgehog (hedgehog.strogino.bhg.ru [192.168.35.236]) by hellfire.strogino.ru (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA24425 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 23:55:37 +0300 Message-ID: <002601c063b4$4f998c60$ec23a8c0@strogino.bhg.ru> From: "Serguey Kolesov" To: "GNOME-web-list" References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> Subject: Re: GNOME comp Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 23:52:41 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Hello. > Here's one of my ideas so far... > > http://www.infovariant.com/mlee/g.gif Well, I like it. It is not perfect but it is something to start with. And I have a few comments: - Headings "Start with GNOME" and "Develop with GNOME" can be made a bit more readable (a darker colour, maybe?) - The main font (Times or what is it?) is really ugly... what about Arial or something similar? -- Serguey From bill@noreboots.com Mon Dec 11 20:37:50 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from shine.micron.net (shine.micron.net [204.229.122.198]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 894A02D3DF for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:37:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from 10.224.0.198 ([10.224.0.198]) by shine.micron.net (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with SMTP id G5FLV000.A1A for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 18:37:48 -0700 Received: from noreboots.com (ucntcme231.dsl.micron.net [206.207.111.231]) by with SMTP (MailShield v1.5); Mon, 11 Dec 2000 18:37:47 -0700 Message-ID: <3A35814A.A2269CF0@noreboots.com> Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 18:37:14 -0700 From: Bill Anderson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16-22smp i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> <002601c063b4$4f998c60$ec23a8c0@strogino.bhg.ru> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SMTP-HELO: noreboots.com X-SMTP-MAIL-FROM: bill@noreboots.com X-SMTP-PEER-INFO: ucntcme231.dsl.micron.net [206.207.111.231] Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Serguey Kolesov wrote: > > Hello. > > > Here's one of my ideas so far... > > > > http://www.infovariant.com/mlee/g.gif > > Well, I like it. It is not perfect but it is something to start with. And I > have a few comments: > > - Headings "Start with GNOME" and "Develop with GNOME" can be made a bit > more readable (a darker colour, maybe?) Agreed, a darker color _would_ be nice. > > - The main font (Times or what is it?) is really ugly... what about Arial or > something similar? How many Linux users have that font without going through the trouble of adding it? I have it, but then i added a whole lot of TTFs to my system. Something to keep in mind is fon-availability on a default install of a distribution. AFAIK, no distributions currently include truetype fonts. Bill From mark@websidestory.com Mon Dec 11 20:50:08 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.websidestory.com (mail1.websidestory.com [208.232.223.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22BE12D2FD for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:50:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from websidestory.com (mark.websidestory.com [208.232.223.60]) by mail1.websidestory.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id eBC1o7q16492 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 17:50:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A35858E.3339617D@websidestory.com> Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 17:55:26 -0800 From: Mark Koopman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> <002601c063b4$4f998c60$ec23a8c0@strogino.bhg.ru> <3A35814A.A2269CF0@noreboots.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Bill Anderson wrote: > > Serguey Kolesov wrote: > > > > Hello. > > > > > Here's one of my ideas so far... > > > > > > http://www.infovariant.com/mlee/g.gif > > > > Well, I like it. It is not perfect but it is something to start with. And I > > have a few comments: > > > > - Headings "Start with GNOME" and "Develop with GNOME" can be made a bit > > more readable (a darker colour, maybe?) > > Agreed, a darker color _would_ be nice. > > > > > - The main font (Times or what is it?) is really ugly... what about Arial or > > something similar? > > How many Linux users have that font without going through the trouble of > adding it? I have it, but then i added a whole lot of TTFs to my system. > > Something to keep in mind is fon-availability on a default install of a > distribution. AFAIK, no distributions currently include truetype fonts. > > Bill > > I installed an RH6.2 distrib about 6 months that has Arial. Arials been around along time, i think we can expect users have it. i'm sure someone can prove me wrong though :) -- #!/usr/local/bin/perl # Mark Koopman - mark@websidestory.com # Software Engineer # # WebSideStory, Inc # # 10182 Telesis Court # San Diego CA 92121 # 858.546.1182.##.318 # 858.546.0480.fax eval(lc(join('', map ({chr}(q( 49877273766940 80827378843973 32767986693280 69827639463932 39883673434341 ))=~/../g)))); From al593181@mail.mty.itesm.mx Mon Dec 11 21:16:48 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from webmail.mty.itesm.mx (webmail.mty.itesm.mx [131.178.2.83]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4CDA2BAE9 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 21:16:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from felipecg (200.53.168.198) by webmail.mty.itesm.mx (5.1.054) id 3A2724C800027BD5; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:15:19 -0600 Message-ID: <002d01c063e1$d7082300$442cfea9@felipecg> From: "Felipe Contreras" To: "Gnome Web List" , "Mark Koopman" References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> <002601c063b4$4f998c60$ec23a8c0@strogino.bhg.ru> <3A35814A.A2269CF0@noreboots.com> <3A35858E.3339617D@websidestory.com> Subject: Re: GNOME comp Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:18:35 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Koopman" Cc: "GNOME-web-list" Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 7:55 PM Subject: Re: GNOME comp > Bill Anderson wrote: > > > > Serguey Kolesov wrote: > > > > > > Hello. > > > > > > > Here's one of my ideas so far... > > > > > > > > http://www.infovariant.com/mlee/g.gif > > > > > > Well, I like it. It is not perfect but it is something to start with. And I > > > have a few comments: > > > > > > - Headings "Start with GNOME" and "Develop with GNOME" can be made a bit > > > more readable (a darker colour, maybe?) > > > > Agreed, a darker color _would_ be nice. I Agree. > > > > > > > > - The main font (Times or what is it?) is really ugly... what about Arial or > > > something similar? > > > > How many Linux users have that font without going through the trouble of > > adding it? I have it, but then i added a whole lot of TTFs to my system. > > > > Something to keep in mind is fon-availability on a default install of a > > distribution. AFAIK, no distributions currently include truetype fonts. > > > > Bill > > > > > > I installed an RH6.2 distrib about 6 months that has Arial. Arials been > around > along time, i think we can expect users have it. > i'm sure someone can prove me wrong though :) My distro has the Arial font too, but anyway, the Times is not so bad, if you think about standards. So correct me if I'm wrong but I think you can say: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from gio.ingor.upm.es (glo.gio.ingor.upm.es [138.100.17.11]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A87BD2D2E0 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 07:06:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from gio.ingor.upm.es ([138.100.21.98]) by gio.ingor.upm.es (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA08708; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:06:00 +0100 Message-ID: <3A36142A.7020304@gio.ingor.upm.es> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:03:54 +0100 From: "Guille (bisho)" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-6.1.1 i686; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001119 X-Accept-Language: es-es, es, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Koopman Cc: GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> <002601c063b4$4f998c60$ec23a8c0@strogino.bhg.ru> <3A35814A.A2269CF0@noreboots.com> <3A35858E.3339617D@websidestory.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > I installed an RH6.2 distrib about 6 months that has Arial. Arials been > around > along time, i think we can expect users have it. > i'm sure someone can prove me wrong though :) The equivalent of Arial in Unix and Mac machines would be Helvetica. So I would propose to use -- \|||||||/ Guillermo Pérez Pérez < o o > - bisho@onirica.com \ L / - bisho@eurielec.etsit.upm.es -oOOo-------oOOo- From digitect@mindspring.com Tue Dec 12 09:02:14 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from barry.mail.mindspring.net (barry.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.25]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B836D2D286 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:02:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4ci.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.146]) by barry.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA17916 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:02:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001d01c06444$46104900$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: "GNOME-web-list" References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> <002601c063b4$4f998c60$ec23a8c0@strogino.bhg.ru> <3A35814A.A2269CF0@noreboots.com> <3A35858E.3339617D@websidestory.com> <3A36142A.7020304@gio.ingor.upm.es> Subject: Re: GNOME comp Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:03:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > The equivalent of Arial in Unix and Mac machines would be Helvetica. > > So I would propose to use * Am I incorrect in thinking that Arial is a proprietary font, perhaps owned by Microsoft? Unless every major distribution distributes it, I'm completely against using Arial. Helvetica has been on my system since RH 5.1, so I'd be in favor of making that the main font if we're going sans serif. But, frankly, serif fonts are easier to read, although I would agree that they look lower tech. I could easily stand having Times be the default, too. * I think we'd be better off sticking with picking one (serif v. non-serif) and having any particular glyphs come from within that chosen family. Let's not mix and match, it creates the potential of too much range in style. (i.e., "Helvetica", "Times", "Big ol' Outline Font", "Courier") * The font tag was deprecated from the W3C HTML 4.01 standard a few years ago. If we're not going to depend on linked style sheets, the correct way to call out a font (all text being contained within

tags, of course): Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From webmaven@lvcm.com Tue Dec 12 09:35:42 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams3.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.77]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 368002BB92 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:35:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.192.168]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Tue, 12 Dec 2000 06:34:29 -0800 Message-ID: <3A365581.775D5846@lvcm.com> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 08:42:41 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Guille (bisho)" Cc: Mark Koopman , GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> <002601c063b4$4f998c60$ec23a8c0@strogino.bhg.ru> <3A35814A.A2269CF0@noreboots.com> <3A35858E.3339617D@websidestory.com> <3A36142A.7020304@gio.ingor.upm.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work "Guille (bisho)" wrote: > > > I installed an RH6.2 distrib about 6 months that has Arial. Arials been > > around > > along time, i think we can expect users have it. > > i'm sure someone can prove me wrong though :) > > The equivalent of Arial in Unix and Mac machines would be Helvetica. > > So I would propose to use I usually use Michael Bernstein. From fboliv@student.dei.uc.pt Tue Dec 12 10:27:45 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from student.dei.uc.pt (student.dei.uc.pt [193.137.203.231]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 204152CA8C for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:27:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (fboliv@localhost) by student.dei.uc.pt (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBCFLwf15455; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:21:58 GMT Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:21:58 +0000 (WET) From: "Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n)" To: Michael Bernstein Cc: "Guille (bisho)" , Mark Koopman , GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp In-Reply-To: <3A365581.775D5846@lvcm.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Even though some new systems do have True Type fonts installed by default (including Arial), most of the systems do NOT have them, and do use helvetica as the standard font. Therefore i do agree with something like: or possibly (and thinking about the windows users visiting gnome.org (which will be a lot, as they are already)), including verdana, with In my oppinion (and also considering fonts), i think 8pt fonts are a good size for such a web page because they are not too small, but also not big at all, and do fit any resolution nicely from 640x480 to 1900... I'd like to know what you guys think about this size. (Note that this is the equivalent to font size 1) > > > I installed an RH6.2 distrib about 6 months that has Arial. Arials been > > > around > > > along time, i think we can expect users have it. > > > i'm sure someone can prove me wrong though :) > > > > The equivalent of Arial in Unix and Mac machines would be Helvetica. > > So I would propose to use ======================================== Frederico Oliveira - aka kript0n Email: kript0n@boxnetwork.net kript0n@void.box.sk fboliv@student.dei.uc.pt ======================================== From digitect@mindspring.com Tue Dec 12 10:36:04 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from barry.mail.mindspring.net (barry.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.25]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBC2D2CA8C for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:36:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from smui05.slb.mindspring.net (smui05.slb.mindspring.net [199.174.114.91]) by barry.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA27500 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:36:04 -0500 (EST) From: digitect@mindspring.com Received: by smui05.slb.mindspring.net id KAA0000005425; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:36:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:36:04 -0500 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Re: GNOME comp Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: 208.150.104.72 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > I usually use Yikes! Double-dog-ditto my previous comments on Arial for Verdana (proprietary (perhaps even MS), non-standard to most Linux distributions). Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From webmaven@lvcm.com Tue Dec 12 10:40:06 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams3.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.77]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A20B2CA8C for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:40:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.192.168]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Tue, 12 Dec 2000 07:38:29 -0800 Message-ID: <3A366482.47D836D2@lvcm.com> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:46:42 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n)" Cc: "Guille (bisho)" , Mark Koopman , GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work "Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n)" wrote: > > Even though some new systems do have True Type fonts installed by default > (including Arial), most of the systems do NOT have them, and do use > helvetica as the standard font. Therefore i do agree with something like: > > > > or possibly (and thinking about the windows users visiting gnome.org > (which will be a lot, as they are already)), including verdana, with > > Don't forget to add a default type *style* in case NONE of these fonts are available: Michael Bernstein. From jdub@aphid.net Tue Dec 12 10:44:40 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail003.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail003.syd.optusnet.com.au [203.2.75.251]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66C652CA8C for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:44:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (sdcax52-213.dialup.optusnet.com.au [198.142.206.213]) by mail003.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBCFhCw08603 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 02:43:24 +1100 Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 293DC3CA8; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 02:42:50 +1100 (EST) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 02:42:49 +1100 From: Jeff Waugh To: GNOME-web-list Subject: Correct specification of fonts Message-ID: <20001213024249.D3391@aphid.net> Mail-Followup-To: Jeff Waugh , GNOME-web-list References: <3A365581.775D5846@lvcm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from fboliv@student.dei.uc.pt on Tue, Dec 12, 2000 at 03:21:58PM +0000 X-Message: Leenooks, Lienucks, Leenoos, Lienus, Let's call the whole thing off. X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.0-test11 i686 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > a) Best not to specify specific fonts without defining a fallback style. Add "sans-serif" to that list. I must interject though - who cares about fonts at this stage? Shouldn't we be discussing structure? > In my oppinion (and also considering fonts), i think 8pt fonts are a good > size for such a web page because they are not too small, but also not big > at all, and do fit any resolution nicely from 640x480 to 1900... I'd like > to know what you guys think about this size. (Note that this is the > equivalent to font size 1) b) Font sizes should always be specified in web-relative notation, or if you're pushing it, pixels (but very rarely, and only for special purposes). Specifying by point is a big no-no. - Jeff (patiently awaiting Radagast's white paper to pore over) -- jdub@aphid.net --------------------------------- http://linux.conf.au/ -- "Life is short. Forgive quickly. Kiss slowly." - Robert Doisneau From dennisle@swbell.net Tue Dec 12 10:58:59 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.29]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B693F2DC91 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:58:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from swbell.net ([208.191.12.195]) by mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0G5G008S3PMNTA@mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net> for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:56:47 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:56:29 -0700 From: Dennis Lee Subject: Re: GNOME comp To: "Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n)" Cc: Michael Bernstein , "Guille (bisho)" , Mark Koopman , GNOME-web-list Message-id: <3A3658BD.8090608@swbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001018 X-Accept-Language: en References: Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n) wrote: > Even though some new systems do have True Type fonts > <...> > In my oppinion (and also considering fonts), i think 8pt fonts are a good > size for such a web page because they are not too small, but also not big > at all, and do fit any resolution nicely from 640x480 to 1900... I'd like > to know what you guys think about this size. (Note that this is the > equivalent to font size 1) _Please_ do not spec some tiny size font (like 8 point)! Fonts to small to read are one of the first complaints I hear about surfing with Linux. Sure spec-ing a font size can make page lay out pleasing to look at. But it is more importaint that our customers are able to read the page. Leave font size out of the css or the pages markup; all font size will do is cause grief, so many system display font sizes differently that font size is a bad can of rotten worms we can do with out. Dennis > >>>> I installed an RH6.2 distrib about 6 months that has Arial. Arials been >>>> around >>>> along time, i think we can expect users have it. >>>> i'm sure someone can prove me wrong though :) >>> >>> The equivalent of Arial in Unix and Mac machines would be Helvetica. >>> So I would propose to use >> From fboliv@student.dei.uc.pt Tue Dec 12 11:17:35 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from student.dei.uc.pt (student.dei.uc.pt [193.137.203.231]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CA4F2DCF9 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:17:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (fboliv@localhost) by student.dei.uc.pt (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBCG9ZA00896; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:09:35 GMT Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:09:35 +0000 (WET) From: "Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n)" To: Michael Bernstein Cc: "Guille (bisho)" , Mark Koopman , GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp In-Reply-To: <3A366482.47D836D2@lvcm.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Michael Bernstein wrote: > "Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n)" wrote: > > > > Even though some new systems do have True Type fonts installed by default > > (including Arial), most of the systems do NOT have them, and do use > > helvetica as the standard font. Therefore i do agree with something like: > > > > > > > > or possibly (and thinking about the windows users visiting gnome.org > > (which will be a lot, as they are already)), including verdana, with > > > > > > Don't forget to add a default type *style* in case NONE of > these fonts are available: > > > > Michael Bernstein. > True, thanks for the correction. How do you guys feel about 8pt or size 1 fonts? I'd like to hear about that. ======================================== Frederico Oliveira - aka kript0n Email: kript0n@boxnetwork.net kript0n@mail.box.sk fboliv@student.dei.uc.pt irc.box.sk:6667 -> #neworder ========================================= From webmaven@lvcm.com Tue Dec 12 11:21:11 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams3.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.77]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F23B2DF32 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:21:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.192.168]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Tue, 12 Dec 2000 08:22:02 -0800 Message-ID: <3A366EB7.116C8A5@lvcm.com> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:30:15 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: digitect@mindspring.com Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME comp References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work digitect@mindspring.com wrote: > > > I usually use > > Yikes! Double-dog-ditto my previous comments on Arial for Verdana (proprietary (perhaps even MS), non-standard to most Linux distributions). While it is true that Verdana is an MS product, it is free (though not Free). It has the advantage of being one of the few high-quality typefaces specifically designed for screen resolutions (which increases legibility). Specifying it in this way IN NO WAY introduces a dependency on the typeface. It will simply be used preferentially if available. Anyone who has gone to the trouble of adding it to THEIR SYSTEM will appreciate the attention to detail, and those who have not will not have their experience degraded in any way. I would however draw the line at stating on the site "This site best viewed using MS Verdana" ;-) That would be wrong :-) Michael Bernstein. P.S. The Gnome Foundation could commission a professional type designer (probably for about 30k or so) to design Free high-quality Serif and Sans-Serif typefaces, but this isn't something that will happen soon. I think Mathew Carter (Verdana's designer) spent a year designing Verdana for Microsoft. As a candidate designer, Zusana Licko comes to mind: http://www.emigre.com/bios/zlicko.html From webmaven@lvcm.com Tue Dec 12 11:29:01 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams1.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.75]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E9922DF32 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:29:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.192.168]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Tue, 12 Dec 2000 08:32:28 -0800 Message-ID: <3A367077.59D0646E@lvcm.com> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:37:43 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeff Waugh Cc: GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: Correct specification of fonts References: <3A365581.775D5846@lvcm.com> <20001213024249.D3391@aphid.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Jeff Waugh wrote: > > I must interject though - who cares about fonts at this stage? Shouldn't we > be discussing structure? I would, but my position (that structure should be primarily subject-oriented) has proved unpopular, and it seems that the site structure is going to be task-oriented instead. So I don't have a lot to contribute to that discussion. Michael Bernstein. From fboliv@student.dei.uc.pt Tue Dec 12 11:30:38 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from student.dei.uc.pt (student.dei.uc.pt [193.137.203.231]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A45972D43B for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:30:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (fboliv@localhost) by student.dei.uc.pt (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBCGEgC02403; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:14:42 GMT Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:14:42 +0000 (WET) From: "Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n)" To: Dennis Lee Cc: Michael Bernstein , "Guille (bisho)" , Mark Koopman , GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp In-Reply-To: <3A3658BD.8090608@swbell.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Dennis Lee wrote: > _Please_ do not spec some tiny size font (like 8 point)! > Fonts to small to read are one of the first complaints I hear about > surfing with Linux. As a matter of fact, 8 pt is not small (i have designed a page's CSS (check http://geek.box.sk) with 8pt and it fits both *nix browsers (read netscape) and windows browsers (read netscape [again] and ie). However i don't think discussing font size is the most important thing to do at the moment. We should in fact be discussing things like the layout other than smaller details such as this one. Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n) Box Network Administration (www.boxnetwork.net) From digitect@mindspring.com Tue Dec 12 11:49:36 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53E302DCD0 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:49:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from smui02.slb.mindspring.net (smui02.slb.mindspring.net [199.174.114.25]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA05561 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:49:35 -0500 (EST) From: digitect@mindspring.com Received: by smui02.slb.mindspring.net id LAA0000030936; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:49:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:49:35 -0500 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Re: Correct specification of fonts Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: 208.150.104.72 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > Michael Bernstein wrote: > > digitect@mindspring.com wrote: > > > > > I usually use > sans-serif"> > > > > Yikes! Double-dog-ditto my previous comments on Arial > for Verdana (proprietary (perhaps even MS), non-standard > to most Linux distributions). > > While it is true that Verdana is an MS product, it is free > (though not Free). It has the advantage of being one of the > few high-quality typefaces specifically designed for screen > resolutions (which increases legibility). Specifying it in > this way IN NO WAY introduces a dependency on the typeface. > It will simply be used preferentially if available. Anyone > who has gone to the trouble of adding it to THEIR SYSTEM > will appreciate the attention to detail, and those who have > not will not have their experience degraded in any way. > > I would however draw the line at stating on the site "This > site best viewed using MS Verdana" ;-) That would be wrong > :-) While I appreciate the so-called "browserness" of Verdana, I find it a very wide font, which means that it spools paragraphs of text farther down the page and make navigation titles return into two lines. Again, I am very opposed to using non-standard (not to mention proprietary fonts and would hope we could use the serif or sans-serif font family instead. If we MUST use specific glyphs, I prefer: 1. Times 2. Helvetica 3. Arial 4. Tahoma (thinner than Verdana) Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From digitect@mindspring.com Tue Dec 12 11:50:29 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mclean.mail.mindspring.net (mclean.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.57]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DD992CE2D for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:50:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from smui02.slb.mindspring.net (smui02.slb.mindspring.net [199.174.114.25]) by mclean.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA13568 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:50:26 -0500 (EST) From: digitect@mindspring.com Received: by smui02.slb.mindspring.net id LAA0000032505; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:50:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:50:25 -0500 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Correct specification of fonts Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: 208.150.104.72 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > Michael Bernstein wrote: > > Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > > I must interject though - who cares about fonts at this stage? Shouldn't we > > be discussing structure? > > I would, but my position (that structure should be primarily > subject-oriented) has proved unpopular, and it seems that > the site structure is going to be task-oriented instead. So > I don't have a lot to contribute to that discussion. > > Michael Bernstein. > Michael, I completely agree with you on this (which explains my recent font discussion contributions, too) but I haven't given up on using a subjective structure yet. (I always wonder if list decisions are made by consensus or verbosity.) From mlee@andrews.edu Tue Dec 12 11:57:45 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from andrews.edu (roonwit.cs.andrews.edu [143.207.1.21]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FB052CE2D for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:57:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from orion.cc.andrews.edu (orion.cc.andrews.edu [143.207.5.12]) by roonwit.cs.andrews.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA24129; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:57:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by orion.cc.andrews.edu (8.8.8+Sun) id LAA12435; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:57:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:57:31 -0500 (EST) From: Martin Lee To: Jeff Waugh Cc: GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: Correct specification of fonts In-Reply-To: <20001213024249.D3391@aphid.net> Message-ID: <%yOlN64AKE@orion.cc.andrews.edu> X-Mailer: Fir 4.0beta (SunOS) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > I must interject though - who cares about fonts at this stage? Shouldn't we > be discussing structure? Very true. Although there needs to be some thought as to the font, I think that the site should be designed first and a font chosen because it works well with the design and is part of the design. If sans-serif goes with the design, then use sans-serif. Font selection should be an implementation of the design. > > > In my oppinion (and also considering fonts), i think 8pt fonts are a good > > size for such a web page because they are not too small, but also not big > > at all, and do fit any resolution nicely from 640x480 to 1900... I'd like > > to know what you guys think about this size. (Note that this is the > > equivalent to font size 1) I preffer to use px sizes when using font styles, and find that some smaller font sizes will view fine (although small) in IE, but are close to unreadable in Netscape. I find that 10px - 12px is usually a good size - depending on what the content is. I think however, we should be focusing on brainstorming ideas for navagation, navagation items, page elements, layout, and the flow of the site. When I made up the comp (http://www.infovariant.com/mlee/g.gif) I wasn't sure what links we would need and what important information needs to be profiled on the from page. Design will be much easier once this is known. The layout I have separates the navagation into two separate types - beginner (a person new to GNOME, member of the press, windows users etc...) and expert (developer, gnome fanatic, regular users that are familiar with linux). This navigation is quite prominent on the home page, but once the user goes to a subpage, the navigation and logo will shrink to the top and side to minimize page real-estate used, giving more focus on the content. Anyway, that's my thought for the morning. From tslukka@alpha.hut.fi Tue Dec 12 13:38:08 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from relay1-us.simplemente.net (relay1.us.simplemente.net [216.167.121.82]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF8A42BB92 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:38:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from tiku.hut.fi (tiku.hut.fi [130.233.228.86]) by relay1-us.simplemente.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE97ED782A for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:38:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from alpha.hut.fi (tslukka@alpha.hut.fi [130.233.224.50]) by tiku.hut.fi (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA28669 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 20:37:56 +0200 (EET) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 20:37:56 +0200 (EET) From: Tuomo Lukka To: GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n) wrote: > On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Dennis Lee wrote: > > > _Please_ do not spec some tiny size font (like 8 point)! > > Fonts to small to read are one of the first complaints I hear about > > surfing with Linux. > > As a matter of fact, 8 pt is not small (i have designed a page's CSS > (check http://geek.box.sk) with 8pt and it fits both *nix browsers (read > netscape) and windows browsers (read netscape [again] and ie). Are you trying to say that "http://geek.box.sk/" is not using small font ?? I have RedHat 6.1 + Netscape 4.7x running on 1024 * 768 display, and this is how I see your web-page: http://titanic.tky.hut.fi/images/font_shot.jpg Please, take a look and remenber that even though it is possible that my system is "corrupt", I am using all settings a they were left after installing the whole thingie and probably there are also others who see this page like me.. So, please don't use small fonts, they are impossible to read some of us. Tuomo Lukka PS: If someone can tell why the hell my browser shows the page like that, please tell me! -------------------------------------------------------------------- In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded. Big Bang Theory. ********** *** The Web : http://titanic.tky.hut.fi/ ********** *** (http://www.iki.fi/luigi/) *** *** E-Mail : Luigi@iki.fi [Use this] *** *** *** *** Tel. : 09-4683042 [Home] *** ******** : 040-5389759 [Mobile] *** * ******** : 010-5322196 [Work] -------------------------------------------------------------------- From john@backspace.com Tue Dec 12 14:15:59 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1EDC2DDE2 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:15:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from [63.27.34.20] (1Cust20.tnt8.nyc3.da.uu.net [63.27.34.20]) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA16114 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:15:53 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: john@mail.backspace.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:28:54 -0500 To: GNOME-web-list From: John Emerson Subject: another GNOME comp Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work I like Martin's 4 quadrant idea, but I'm not sure how it would extend to other sections of the site. Also, it does seem a bit premature to be putting together comps without a finalized structure. Any news on that document, Joakim? Is there anything we can do to help? In any case, here's a comp of my own: http://backspace.com/gnome1.gif (I couldn't find the proper font for the GNOME title, but you get the general idea.) - John From wkurdzio@cslab.vt.edu Tue Dec 12 14:33:21 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from labrador.cslab.vt.edu (labrador.cslab.vt.edu [198.82.184.22]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FB152BB92 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:33:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from lemon.cslab.vt.edu (lemon.cslab.vt.edu [198.82.184.69]) by labrador.cslab.vt.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA21657 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:32:46 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wkurdzio@cslab.vt.edu) Received: from localhost (wkurdzio@localhost) by lemon.cslab.vt.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA13790 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:30:37 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wkurdzio@lemon.cslab.vt.edu) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:30:37 -0500 (EST) From: Wes Kurdziolek To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Small font sizes while browsing in Linux Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Netscape typically renders fonts two points smaller than specified, so 10pt is a good selection -- not too big in IE and Konquerer and not too small in Netscape. FYI: If you think your fonts are too small in X, make sure your 100dpi font directories are listed before your 75dpi font directories in your XF86Config file. -- Wes Kurdziolek Virginia Tech Computer Science Lab UNIX System Administrator E-mail: wkurdzio@cslab.vt.edu Voice: +1 (540) 231-3457 Office: 116A McBryde From dennisle@swbell.net Tue Dec 12 14:44:43 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.29]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DED12E0B7 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:44:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from swbell.net ([208.191.12.195]) by mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0G5G00KYCZCP4I@mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net> for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:26:50 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:26:33 -0700 From: Dennis Lee Subject: Re: GNOME comp To: Tuomo Lukka Cc: GNOME-web-list Message-id: <3A3689F9.9090105@swbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001018 X-Accept-Language: en References: Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Tuomo Lukka wrote: > On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n) wrote: > > >> On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Dennis Lee wrote: >> >> >>> _Please_ do not spec some tiny size font (like 8 point)! >>> Fonts to small to read are one of the first complaints I hear about >>> surfing with Linux. >> >> As a matter of fact, 8 pt is not small (i have designed a page's CSS >> (check http://geek.box.sk) with 8pt and it fits both *nix browsers (read >> netscape) and windows browsers (read netscape [again] and ie). > > > Are you trying to say that "http://geek.box.sk/" is not using small font ?? > I have RedHat 6.1 + Netscape 4.7x running on 1024 * 768 display, and this > is how I see your web-page: http://titanic.tky.hut.fi/images/font_shot.jpg > > Please, take a look and remenber that even though it is possible that my > system is "corrupt", I am using all settings a they were left after > installing the whole thingie and probably there are also others who see > this page like me.. So, please don't use small fonts, they are impossible > to read some of us. > Tuomo Lukka > > PS: If someone can tell why the hell my browser shows the page like that, > please tell me! There is nothing wrong with your system. Thats just the best Netscape 4.7 can display such a small font; at that display resultion; mine looks the same and I have true type fonts installed. There are some things you could to do in order to read the page, but why, it is the web site thats broken in my book. This is the kind of thing we can avoid by not setting a font size. Dennis From john@backspace.com Wed Dec 13 00:11:01 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtppop3pub.verizon.net (smtppop3pub.gte.net [206.46.170.22]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94E8A2D1D3 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 00:11:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net (smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.39.156]) by smtppop3pub.verizon.net with ESMTP for ; id XAA76968712 Tue, 12 Dec 2000 23:06:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from [151.202.83.231] (adsl-151-202-83-231.nyc.adsl.bellatlantic.net [151.202.83.231]) by smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA28372 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 00:10:28 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: john@mail.backspace.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 00:23:33 -0500 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org From: John Emerson Subject: another GNOME comp, 2 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work This one with a little more color: http://backspace.com/gnome2.gif - John From digitect@mindspring.com Wed Dec 13 00:18:24 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from hall.mail.mindspring.net (hall.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.60]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C599F2D1D3 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 00:18:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4d1.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.161]) by hall.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA02867; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 00:18:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <007601c064c4$40ccb8e0$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: , "John Emerson" References: Subject: Re: another GNOME comp, 2 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 00:19:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > This one with a little more color: > http://backspace.com/gnome2.gif I like your previous one better. How about the GNOME warm gray instead of the yellow? From robin@noname4us.com Wed Dec 13 00:51:41 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from first.noname4us.com (first.noname4us.com [212.247.87.60]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4088F2D1D3 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 00:51:41 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 4552 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2000 05:52:00 -0000 Received: from robin.int.noname4us.com (HELO sarah.) (192.168.128.12) by first.noname4us.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 2000 05:52:00 -0000 From: Robin Ericsson Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 05:51:31 GMT Message-ID: <20001213.5513100@sarah.> Subject: Re: another GNOME comp, 2 To: John Emerson Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mozilla/3.0 (compatible; StarOffice/5.2;Linux) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On 12/13/00, 6:23:33 AM, John Emerson wrote regardi= ng=20 another GNOME comp, 2: > This one with a little more color: > http://backspace.com/gnome2.gif I prefer this layout before the other one, but colors and stuff is to = early to decide I think...=20 R. From mandreiana@rdsnet.ro Wed Dec 13 03:02:40 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail.rdsnet.ro (mail.rdsnet.ro [193.231.236.16]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 18C1D2DF4D for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 03:02:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 18700 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2000 08:04:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO rdsnet.ro) (212.93.133.179) by mail.rdsnet.ro with SMTP; 13 Dec 2000 08:04:14 -0000 Message-ID: <3A372D1B.8F0C12C7@rdsnet.ro> Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 10:02:35 +0200 From: Marius Andreiana Organization: Web Development Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: Correct specification of fonts References: <3A365581.775D5846@lvcm.com> <20001213024249.D3391@aphid.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > > > Aren't cascading stylesheets used for fonts, colors, etc, stored in a separate file ? Shouldn't use tag at all, only CSS. -- Marius Andreiana From fboliv@student.dei.uc.pt Wed Dec 13 04:53:04 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from student.dei.uc.pt (student.dei.uc.pt [193.137.203.231]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5D612CE26 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 04:52:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (fboliv@localhost) by student.dei.uc.pt (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBD9oTl09546; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:50:29 GMT Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:50:28 +0000 (WET) From: "Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n)" To: Dennis Lee Cc: Tuomo Lukka , GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp In-Reply-To: <3A3689F9.9090105@swbell.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > PS: If someone can tell why the hell my browser shows the page like that, > > please tell me! > > There is nothing wrong with your system. Thats just the best Netscape > 4.7 can display such a small font; at that display resultion; mine looks > the same and I have true type fonts installed. There are some things you > could to do in order to read the page, but why, it is the web site thats > broken in my book. > > This is the kind of thing we can avoid by not setting a font size. Well, as a matter of fact, you do see it small, but it is a netscape navigator limitation. You guys could try and set font sizes between -1 and 7 on a test page and tell me which one looks good on 4.7 (imho, none does actually look good). And notice that true type fonts are not the deal here (remember that not everybody on *nix has a true type font server by default). About the "broken in my book" part.. heh, what book? and who broke it? :) Oh, mornings are like this... -- Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n) Box Network (www.boxnetwork.net) Admin and Webmaster From fboliv@student.dei.uc.pt Wed Dec 13 04:55:58 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from student.dei.uc.pt (student.dei.uc.pt [193.137.203.231]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71E452CE26 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 04:55:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (fboliv@localhost) by student.dei.uc.pt (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBD9sgq09963; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:54:42 GMT Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:54:42 +0000 (WET) From: "Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n)" To: Marius Andreiana Cc: GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: Correct specification of fonts In-Reply-To: <3A372D1B.8F0C12C7@rdsnet.ro> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Marius Andreiana wrote: > Aren't cascading stylesheets used for fonts, colors, etc, stored in a > separate file ? > Shouldn't use tag at all, only CSS. Of course we should use CSS. But thats not actually the point at this moment. The point is choosing an acceptable font that displays nicely on every OS and browser. So don't actually worry much about tags because they probably won't exist. Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n) Box Network (www.boxnetwork.net) Admin and Webmaster From menthos@menthos.com Wed Dec 13 12:09:25 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from kobra.efd.lth.se (kobra.efd.lth.se [130.235.34.36]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D69782E043 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 12:09:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from menthos.com (E405.sparta.lu.se [194.47.241.12]) by kobra.efd.lth.se (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id eBDH9N913526 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 18:09:23 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <3A37AD70.8080103@menthos.com> Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 18:10:08 +0100 From: Christian Rose User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16-22 i686; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001205 X-Accept-Language: sv, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Correct specification of fonts References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Maybe not using pixels or points but the non-specific sizes that CSS provides is somewhat "cleaner" (http://www.eskimo.com/%7Ebloo/indexdot/css/properties/font/fontsize.htm). Of course, it is still a question if we should use "medium", "small", or "x-small". In my personal experience, many developing only for Windows are using "xx-small" but that is completely unreadable on Linux with default settings. "x-small" or "small" are readable though. "medium" is probably too big. Christian Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n) wrote: >> Aren't cascading stylesheets used for fonts, colors, etc, stored in a >> separate file ? >> Shouldn't use tag at all, only CSS. > > Of course we should use CSS. But thats not actually the point at this > moment. The point is choosing an acceptable font that displays nicely on > every OS and browser. So don't actually worry much about tags > because they probably won't exist. From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Wed Dec 13 15:50:34 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 648632E46E for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 15:50:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id OAA184382 (8.9.1/50); Wed, 13 Dec 2000 14:49:55 -0600 Message-Id: <200012132049.OAA184382@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: another GNOME comp, 2 From: Ryan Muldoon To: John Emerson Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 14 Dec 2000 00:51:12 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work This design is a nice generic website design, but it has nothing saying "This is GNOME" Gnome has a fairly well-defined aesthetic that the site needs to represent. There is a GNOME palette, and gnome-looking graphics. We should keep this in mind. --Ryan > > This one with a little more color: > http://backspace.com/gnome2.gif > > > - John > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-web-list mailing list > gnome-web-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-web-list 9 From sopwith@redhat.com Wed Dec 13 16:03:20 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (host156.207-175-42.redhat.com [207.175.42.156]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E22552BC26 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 16:03:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (sopwith@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBDL3JH15517 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 16:03:19 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: devserv.devel.redhat.com: sopwith owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 16:03:18 -0500 (EST) From: Elliot Lee X-Sender: To: Subject: Re: another GNOME comp, 2 In-Reply-To: <200012132049.OAA184382@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On 14 Dec 2000, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > There is a GNOME palette, and gnome-looking graphics. Since when? There is only tradition, and tradition can be changed at will (for precedent, look at the latest www.gnome.org, which used none of the "brown" colors of previous web sites). Let your imagination run wild, -- Elliot "The Pythagorean Theorem employed 24 words, the Lord's Prayer has 66 words, Archimedes Principle has 67 words, the 10 Commandments have 179 words, the Gettysburg Address had 286 words, the Declaration of Independence, 1,300 words and finally the European Commission's regulation on the sale of cabbage: 26,911 words." From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Wed Dec 13 16:42:06 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3BA52E4AD for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 16:39:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id PAA200176 (8.9.1/50); Wed, 13 Dec 2000 15:39:13 -0600 Message-Id: <200012132139.PAA200176@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: another GNOME comp, 2 From: Ryan Muldoon To: Elliot Lee Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 14 Dec 2000 01:40:30 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > On 14 Dec 2000, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > > > There is a GNOME palette, and gnome-looking graphics. > > Since when? > > There is only tradition, and tradition can be changed at will (for > precedent, look at the latest www.gnome.org, which used none of the > "brown" colors of previous web sites). > > Let your imagination run wild, Sure, there are no official GNOME colors. But there is a tradition. Personally, I really don't like the colors of the current website, or the blue swoosh things, or the "computing made easy". Why? It didn't make me think of GNOME. Look at Apple's website. Or Microsoft's. Or Be's. All of them have an interface that is similar to that of the GUI. To me, that is a good thing. I think Helixcode's website does an excellent job of this - gnome.org should strive to do the same. The website should be pushing the platform - to do that, you need to show the "mood" of gnome. To me, part of gnome's appeal is its aesthetic. Maybe I'm alone in that. In my experience designing websites, those that are successful push the mood of the content. The framework should be so good, it is transparent to the user. --Ryan From gbreland@healthtech.net Wed Dec 13 10:06:54 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from ahtmail.healthtech.net (mail.healthtech.net [208.137.134.227]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF5432E27A for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 10:06:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by AHTMAIL with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:01:58 -0600 Message-ID: <102E310E554DD411B9BC006008F6053C079536@AHTMAIL> From: Greg Breland To: GNOME-web-list Subject: RE: Correct specification of fonts Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:01:58 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Why do we have to find a font that displays nicely on each browser. Why not have browser detect code that will deliver the correct CSS to each browser? This will be important to make the page accessible by lynx, IE3,IE$, NN4 and such. Then have a generic CCS1-2 for IE5.x, NN6.x, Opera Basically, the pages would be usable by older browsers, but might not look the best. This does not include the front page, which needs to look consistent in each browser. Once you get away from the front page and into the content, accessibility is more important than consistent appearance as long as the appearance is readable. Greg > ..... The point is choosing an acceptable font that > displays nicely on > every OS and browser. So don't actually worry much about tags > because they probably won't exist. From john@backspace.com Wed Dec 13 23:55:22 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net (smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.39.156]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E49CE2E149 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 23:55:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from [151.202.183.68] (adsl-151-202-183-68.nyc.adsl.bellatlantic.net [151.202.183.68]) by smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA28205 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 23:55:16 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: john@mail.backspace.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 00:08:24 -0500 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org From: John Emerson Subject: another GNOME comp, 3 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Here's a little more GNOME'ish: http://backspace.com/gnome3.gif I know, I know, it says "Get GNOME" three times... but this is all just brainstorming while we wait for a finalized structure. - John From digitect@mindspring.com Thu Dec 14 01:03:39 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B2732BCDC for ; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 01:03:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf2re.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.139.110]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA30664 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 01:03:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <025001c06593$964cfe40$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: Subject: Structure v.0.1-5 (estimate) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 01:03:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Ok, you guys are going to shoot me for this verbosity, but since discussion on structure has waned a bit lately, I thought I'd toss in my list to date. Below is basically an exhaustive collection of our statements up until now along with my editorial comments at no extra charge. (Well, you do have to read them. ;) Not trying to step on Joakim's forthcoming proposal, just thought it would be helpful to revisit the content list in the meantime. As I've droned before, my feelings are to aim the site at two main groups: Users and the Developer Community... ______________________________________________________________________ USER - Assumes the user has a system with GNOME already installed and properly maintained via distribution installation, a System Administrator or a third party commercial delivery system such as HelixCode or Eazel. Or perhaps a Windows user just wanting to know what Linux is and ended up here because our art is cool. Probably not interested in joining the GNOME community yet, just wants productivity from the desktop. Enough educational/marketing material needs to exist here to enable the later transition to contributor if desired. * Introduction (What is GNOME?) - Intro Docs - A few important documents here like "What is a desktop?" and "Is it like Windows?" - Screenshots - Bugs - I've found a bug, what do I do? (Great opportunity to expose the developer side.) * Headlines - Information and articles of general interest only. Things like "Number of GNOME users increasing" and "Bob explains metathemeing." * Help/UsrDocs - Quick start - GNOME users guide - Tutorials - Links . GNU . HelixCode/Easel/etc. . Themes - Published books * Press/Marketing - Lecture circuit - Other appearances (Radio, TV, print) - Calendar * Support - Here's where we fork into the Commercial v. do it yourself (developer.gnome.org) argument and begin to present the user with the benefits of rolling his own. (Leads naturally onto the Developer side.) * (Download) - Shouldn't exist on the user side. Reasoning: Does GNOME really want to distribute software for the average or newbie user? I doubt that we will ever have the resources or desire to create a delivery system as useful or efficient as the commercial companies for a typical user. Why go to all the trouble? Although I believe that GNOME should always be available from the GNOME site (!), I think we will do better explaining how the basic desktop components work for the user here and point experienced users to the Developer side to obtain specific rpms and src files for the extended range of software. We need to focus on helping the user with the core desktop (calculator, calendar, applets, etc.) and all of this stuff will probably be installed for him already. Remember, he doesn't have root access and isn't capable of compiling source anyway. ______________________________________________________________________ DEVELOPER COMMUNITY - Perhaps this is where our community really begins. Up until this point, the user is interested in just getting GNOME to work and finding out what it can do. But if he's impressed enough to dig deeper, and perhaps tries a dual boot installation on his home computer, then he'll need the support of the larger community. To me, that's entry level on the developer side which then expands to the full depth. * News (Developer) - Software update list - Gnotices - Project of the week * Docs, Developer - Contribution - Philosophical stuff only, directs through to projects (below) - White papers - FAQs - Mailing lists - Newsgroups/Threads? * Contacts - Developers (Advogado-like?) - Mail contact - IRC * Software map - Flexible listing by date, category, authors, etc. - CVS * Bug management - perhaps attached to the software database? * Projects/Communities - Components - GTK+ - Glade - Pango - Gimp - Office - GDP - UI Hitsquad - Sound - Icons - Graphics - Advocacy - Testing - Translation * Foundation stuff - charter - foundation meeting minutes - board members, with contact info - advisory board info - application form for membership From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Thu Dec 14 11:59:21 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8F0B2BABE for ; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 11:59:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 146biu-0005dn-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 17:59:17 +0100 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 11:56:57 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Design document [Draft 1] Message-ID: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work So, here's the much anticipated design document draft. There are a couple of pieces missing, and it'll require quite a bit of discussion, but I think I've created something that will be a decent starting point. When replying, please consider trimming extensively, just quoting the exact pieces you're commenting on, and try to keep it compact. This thread can get very extensive if we don't. Also, if you have several long comments to different parts, consider replying in two different mails. ----- GNOME WEBSITES - DESIGN DOCUMENT Draft 1 Joakim Ziegler TABLE OF CONTENTS 1. Introduction 2. Audience and goals 3. Navigation structure/usability 4. Graphical design 5. Localization 6. Technology 1. Introduction This is a draft design document for the GNOME websites. It's based on the discussion on gnome-web-list@gnome.org, as well as my own personal suggestions/preferences. Don't take things here as written in stone, this is mostly intended as a starting point for discussion. The structure of the document is fairly general, and is designed to accommodate most changes, so we won't have to go around changing the actual structure, just the content of the sections. It's a lot easier that way. 2. Audience and goals The GNOME websites span a rather large range of audiences (and corresponding goals), including users, developers, members of the press, representatives of companies considering supporting GNOME, and so on. The goals can be broken down as follows: 2.1 Marketing GNOME One of the primary goals of the GNOME websites, specifically www.gnome.org, is to market GNOME towards people who don't have it installed yet. Even though GNOME is well on its way to becoming a de facto standard desktop environment for GNU/Linux users, there is still a rather large group out there who are not yet using it (not to mention all the users of other Unices, as well as Windows and MacOS). Primary tools for doing this is the www.gnome.org frontpage (body text), as well as sections specifically designed to market GNOME to new users (the "Find out what GNOME is" section of the current site is a good example, although there should be more). 2.2 Providing GNOME news There is a lot happening in the GNOME community, and people want a place to get informed about the latest news. news.gnome.org fills this function rather well, but currently suffers from being poorly integrated with the rest of the GNOME sites (visually and content-wise). The base features of the current news.gnome.org are good, though: Posting of articles with followup discussion, along the lines of Slashdot. 2.3 Informing users Users need a wide variety of information. New users should have easy access to introductory documentation, tutorials, installation howtos, FAQs and so on. More experienced users should be able to find detailed documentation, troubleshooting guides, pointers to software of different types, etc. The user-oriented documentation could possibly be arranged around where the user is in the GNOME pipeline: Getting ready to install - Installing - Running it the first time - Learning to use it efficiently - Getting more software. 2.4 Educating developers developer.gnome.org is the prime resource for GNOME developer information. Since we're also managing the www.gtk.org assets, we're in a rather unique position to make developer.gnome.org into a one-stop site for all g-prefixed development information. Most of the current content is excellent, although it could benefit from somewhat better organization and navigational structure. Types of content: Technology overviews/whitepapers, tutorials, API docs, high-level guidelines. 2.5 Informing the press GNOME is getting massive press coverage lately. Even when our handling of press contacts has been low quality, slow, or non-existent, we've gotten excellent press. It's clear that we could get even more press coverage if we were slightly more aggressive in our handling of these matters. At the moment, our press resources mainly consists of a list of e-mail addresses, one for general press inquiries, a couple of corporate ones, and some for press contacts local to specific countries. Ideally, we should have a complete press kit online. It should include all the stuff journalists normally ask for when they contact gnome-press-contact@gnome.org, such as a brief description and history of the project, the structure of the GNOME foundation, representative screenshots, publicity shots of central people in the organization, and so on. 2.6 Informing ISVs and other corporate entities We've traditionally been rather bad at addressing the information needs of corporate entities specifcally. They've mostly been forced to browse the standard information on the site, and then post their inquiries to mailing lists. While the information needs of companies vary a lot, we should at least make an effort to address their basic needs. Information about the GNOME foundation advisory board, companies currently working with and supporting GNOME, and so on will be helpful. Generally, this is about marketing GNOME to potential corporate backers, as well as informing them. 3. Navigation structure/usability The navigational structure for the GNOME sites is by no means a given. There has been a lot of discussion, particularly about the top-level division of areas, where there have been suggestions for task-oriented, user group oriented, and subject oriented navigation, as well as variations over these three basic themes. My current proposal is to use a task/subject hybrid structure, with user group oriented navigation as an alternative method of access. That is, the main categories of the navigation tree are task/subject oriented, and we present a small menu in a sidebar or similar on the frontpage for users to navigate by user group, which leads to one page per user group, with a collection of links that's relevant for that group. That still leaves the problem of creating the top-level categories. It's very easy to either overspecialize the categories, and end up with too many (anything over 10-12 is too many, in reality) or create too broad categories that are unintuitive. I created 12 categories which I believe are rather intuitive for the user, and span all the information we want to place on the GNOME sites. I've not created the actual structure beneath each toplevel category, as I think it's not entirely clear yet what things we actually *want*, however I believe this structure is general enough that it'll be able to hold whatever we want to put into it. The order of this list might be illogical. 3.1 Top-level structure About Introductory documents. Mainly for those unfamiliar with GNOME in general, and who want a quick way to figure out what this is all about. Includes the a "What is GNOME" document, the general GNOME FAQ, and also documents for companies interested in supporting GNOME, the project roadmap, etc. Screenshots An important link to have on the front page, since this is what a lot of people look for. Idea for structure: Split it up into several different types of screenshots, like "Basic", "Businesslike", "Applications", "Oddities", etc. Perhaps make screenshots imagemaps which can be clicked to bring you to the appindex page of each displayed application? Get it Describe the various ways to get and install GNOME. CVS, GNOME FTP servers, Linux distributions which include GNOME, and Helix GNOME would all be relevant pointers here. It's a matter of resources how much we want to actually support all of this, but we should at least have instructions for how to get, build and install GNOME from CVS and GNOME FTP. Support How to get help with GNOME. All the documentation should be here, as well as pointers to mailing lists, bugzilla, IRC channels, etc. News Gnotices in some shape or form. Basically newsitems with discussion. Software A revamped, expanded version of the Appindex. Should let you search for software in a variety of ways, including category, file types it'll read and write (very practical for all the people who come onto IRC and say "What GNOME program can read a .foo file?", and so on. Possibly also an equivalence index, where people can say "I need something like Outlook", and it'll take you to Evolution. Developer Entry for the developer minded. Basically the combined content of today's developer.gnome.org and www.gtk.org. Press All the info members of the press would need to represent GNOME in a correct manner. Journalists work under time constraints, so this is where we have the chance to give them all the info they need in one neat package. Should include a press kit (possibly in PDF format), a list of contact mail addresses and phone numbers (I know, phone numbers are so 1985, but some journalists prefer them), press photos (preferably, each press contact listed should have a downloadable high-resolution photo for the press to use when interviewing), representative screenshots (of the nice and simple variety), and so on. The press kit itself should be a brief presentation of GNOME, talking about the project history, the foundation, the current status, what corporate backers there are, etc. Foundation All the formal stuff about the foundation, how a company can join the advisory board, current board of directors, board meeting minutes, and so on. The exact content of this section should be up to the people more directly involved with the foundation, I believe. Contact Ways to contact the GNOME project and the members, for various purposes. This should definitely be broken down by task, so that bug reports can be directed to bugzilla, press inquiries to the press section, etc. Events An events calendar, listing upcoming tradeshows where GNOME will be present, as well as scheduled upcoming releases. People Developer index, developer interviews (I'd like to resurrect that section, even though I only ever did one interview, I think it was a good one, and it's a great way to show the faces behind the software. Actually, it's such a good idea that KDE cloned it off our site), and so on. 3.2 Other navigation methods, shortcuts into the structure, etc. The structure outlined above is a reasonable main navigational structure, but one structure will never fit everyone. Hence, I'm suggesting augmenting it with a few metastructures that will mainly be accessible through the front page: Role description Allow people to choose who they are from a small menu (about ten items, perhaps), and arrive on a page of quick links for the group they chose. The links go directly into the structure, and are the ones we believe are useful for that group, in the order they should be read. Quick tasks Allow people to choose a few typical tasks from a menu, and go directly to those pages. These should be the 4-8 pages people visit the most, but that are still not logical to make into top-level categories. Things that spring to mind as obvious candidates are "Report a bug", "I need help!", etc. Search the site A search box on the front page is a necessity, and should search the entire site. 4. Graphical design There have been several quick sketches of the web site look and feel on the list lately. There seems to be considerable agreement on several aspects of the graphical design. I've tried to sum up those here, as well as inject some common sense rules, and some opinions of my own, of course. 4.1 Colors and typefaces High contrast is easier to read than low contrast. Dark text on a light background is easier to read than the opposite. It seems clear that we should use black text on white or light pastel backgrounds throughout the site, to keep readability as high as possible. This doesn't, however, exclude the occasional use of light-on-dark for menus with reasonably few items, etc. Typefaces on the web are a difficult problem. While technologies like CSS give decent control over what typefaces the browser chooses to use, there's no good, standardized and open method for downloading typefaces, hence one is limited mainly to specifying sans-serif or serif fonts. Sans fonts are widely used because they look cleaner, however, serifs theoretically increase readability, if rendered correctly, but font rendering in web browsers, especially under X, is abysmal. Thus, it might be worth considering using a sans font for the GNOME sites. 4.2 Headlines and icons For maintainability, headlines should be text only. The current design uses graphics for some text (most notably the menus), and this has proven to be difficult to maintain and update. Even though there are techniques for generating images of text on the fly and caching them, we should try to avoid this as much as possible. It would be good to integrate some icons into the site, since GNOME has very attractive icons on the desktop, etc. However, keeping the site light on graphics is probably a good idea, and since icons would have to be specially created for the site, it's dangerous to rely on them (if we had an icon per section, adding a new section would entail finding an icon artist to do another icon in the style of the existing ones). 4.3 Navigation bars and menus There are basically two main layouts used for the main navigation bars (navigating the main hierarchy). One, which has been the standard for most sites for a very long time, is the "Along the left side of the page" vertical menu. The advantages are that we can include basically as many items as we want, since vertical is the axis people are used to scrolling on anyway. The disadvantage is that subnavigation is difficult to integrate intuitively (most attempts use an indenting system, which tends to make the menu very wide). The other, which has become more common lately, is the stacked horizontal navbars along the top of the page. The advantages of this is that revealing several levels of navigation is very easy and intuitive, by adding bars below each other, The disadvantage is that it's somewhat limiting in the number of items that can be included on each level of navigation. Personally, I've come to prefer the stacked horizontal bars, if they're practical given the navigation structure, for a number of reasons. They stay out of the way a lot more than the vertical menu (since the vertical menus usually means wrapping the whole content in a table and putting the menu in a table cell to the left of it, so that there's essentially a strip of blank space all the way down below the menu bar), it takes up less screen realestate in general, and it's a model most people are comfortable with. We could optionally also include "breadcrumbs" to make finding out exactly where you are in the structure simpler (breadcrumbs are the category > subcategory > current page used on for instance yahoo.) If we use horizontal stacked bars, I suggest we place the alternate navigation methods (user group based, quick links, search) in a column along one of the sides of the frontpage, possibly in little boxes. 5. Localization We've amply discussed this. I'm going to write a section on it, but I believe it's not vital right now, and I really want to just get this document out there. 6. Technology Technology should be decided after a few days of discussion and fleshing out of the sections above. ----- -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From duane@extrawebs.com Thu Dec 14 12:00:20 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail.bartnet.net (mail.bartnet.net [38.197.168.6]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DD7E2E093 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 12:00:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from Duane (pool-216-209.bartnet.net [38.194.216.209]) by mail.bartnet.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA12392; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 11:06:18 -0600 Message-ID: <002001c065ef$3742fce0$03000004@Duane> From: "Duane Richards" To: "Ryan Muldoon" Cc: "gnome web list" References: <200012132139.PAA200176@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: another GNOME comp, 2 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 10:59:18 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work My name is Duane Richards, I've followed this list for several weeks now and I am interested in contributing some code and experience to the gnome website. I think that this is where we need to start and I agree with Ryan that the interface should be as seamless as possible between the gnome desktop and the website if possible even to the level of inheriting some features of the users desktop settings. For example there are different themes that can be applied to gkrellm and the desktop windows themselves. Could we allow these same themes to be applied to certain areas of the website? I also agree that we should try and keep the overall 'mood' of the original design and to model Helixcode's site would not be a bad thing. duane ----- Original Message ----- From: Ryan Muldoon To: Elliot Lee Cc: Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 2:40 PM Subject: Re: another GNOME comp, 2 > > On 14 Dec 2000, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > > > > > There is a GNOME palette, and gnome-looking graphics. > > > > Since when? > > > > There is only tradition, and tradition can be changed at will (for > > precedent, look at the latest www.gnome.org, which used none of the > > "brown" colors of previous web sites). > > > > Let your imagination run wild, > > > > Sure, there are no official GNOME colors. But there is a tradition. > Personally, I really don't like the colors of the current website, or > the blue swoosh things, or the "computing made easy". Why? It didn't > make me think of GNOME. Look at Apple's website. Or Microsoft's. Or > Be's. All of them have an interface that is similar to that of the > GUI. To me, that is a good thing. I think Helixcode's website does an > excellent job of this - gnome.org should strive to do the same. The > website should be pushing the platform - to do that, you need to show > the "mood" of gnome. To me, part of gnome's appeal is its > aesthetic. Maybe I'm alone in that. In my experience designing > websites, those that are successful push the mood of the content. The > framework should be so good, it is transparent to the user. > > > --Ryan > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-web-list mailing list > gnome-web-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-web-list From ryan@devnut.com Sat Dec 16 13:27:18 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from web.olypen.com (olypen.com [208.200.248.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 294DC2BAB1 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 13:27:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from devnu(ppp-58.olypen.com[208.238.207.62]) (813 bytes) by web.olypen.com via sendmail with P:smtp/R:inet_hosts/T:smtp (sender: ) id for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 10:32:29 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2.0.109 1999-Oct-27 #15 built 1999-Dec-15) From: "Ryan Christensen" To: "Gnome Web List" Subject: RE: Design document [Draft 1] Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 10:23:50 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 In-Reply-To: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work I'm going to work on a reply to this that I'll send off later tonight.. however, it looks great! Ryan >... From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sat Dec 16 16:38:53 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3ED9F2BAB1 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 16:38:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147P2t-0006to-00; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 22:39:12 +0100 Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 16:36:43 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Cc: tigert@helixcode.com Subject: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org, tigert@helixcode.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work [I'm Cc:ing this to Tuomas, since I'm unsure if he's on this list, and he's had more to do with GNOME's visual image through the ages than anyone else, so I'd love to hear his opinion] I was playing with some GNOME site mockups today. Nothing even close to finished yet, more like an exercise for myself, to see what sort of structures worked, and if I came up with something that "clicked". And I started thinking: What colors are representative of GNOME? We've had quite a few color schemes on GNOME web pages, varying both through time and from site to site. I've put up a little comparison chart, with the current www.kde.org colors included for reference, at: http://www.avmaria.com/colorschemes.png So what do we want for the new GNOME pages? There are obviously certain things that are given (and I've mentioned them in the design document draft), such as legibility dictating probably black body text on white background for the main text of the site, but beyond that, it's fairly open. Personally, I'd like the color scheme we use to be strong (the current www.gnome.org pages are fairly strong, but I was a little wussy in my choice of the pastels, on the other hand, the old GNOME page, and Gnotices, has a very strong red that I like, but the other colors are very weak), and distinctive (I ended up playing with blues in my new mockups, since blues are very safe, but they're also very KDE, so we should probably stay away). I'm wondering what people are seeing as GNOME colors. What colors "say" GNOME to you? It'd be great if people came up with simple color comps before we started doing actual site mockups. Just make an image with the colors you think we should use put beside each other. It can be even more simple than the ones I've done in my overview. It'd be great to come up with the following, at least: Background color, body text color, link colors, alternate background color (for boxes, etc) with the text colors to be applied on the alternate background, and a couple of accent and emphasis colors. There can be more, but these are the minimum colors a scheme should have to be flexible enough to fit the entire site. If you can't be bothered to make some color comps, please follow up to this thread with some thoughts about colors that you feel fit GNOME. When we have some agreement on this, it should go in the design document. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Sat Dec 16 17:55:30 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 494552CE02 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 17:55:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id QAA36840 (8.9.1/50); Sat, 16 Dec 2000 16:55:22 -0600 Message-Id: <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: GNOME colors From: Ryan Muldoon To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org, tigert@helixcode.com In-Reply-To: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 17 Dec 2000 02:56:31 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work While I don't have the time to do a color comp at the moment (finals), I'd like to put in my thoughts on the web site's color scheme: 1. Pastels should go away - They appear nowhere in gnome artwork. In my mind, they are almost the opposite of the general gnome aesthetic concept. 2. Reds, Browns, Yellows, dark green, and greyscale seem to be the most used colors in gnome artwork. I think the website should reflect this. 3. I am partial to continuing in the Tigert tradition for artwork - it is the distinctive GNOME feel. 4. The background-oriented colors should be subdued and earthy (yellow, white, grey, light brown), and then use the stronger colors for text (black), links (red/rust/maroonish, dark green) and content. As I've said before, the helixcode.com website did a good job of reflecting the GNOME feel - we should try to do similarly (but not use the same look, obviously). I think it is important to reflect the feel of the GUI while we are promoting it. While in general primary colors are nice and strong and such, they have little to do with the GNOME look and feel. It's important to consider this when we are making the website. People should be immediately be able to tell that it is the GNOME website, and not something else. --Ryan From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Sat Dec 16 18:04:24 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C8602CE02 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 18:04:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id RAA100834 (8.9.1/50); Sat, 16 Dec 2000 17:04:17 -0600 Message-Id: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] From: Ryan Muldoon To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 17 Dec 2000 03:05:26 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work My thoughts (for now) are about sections 2 and 3: > > 2. Audience and goals > > The GNOME websites span a rather large range of audiences (and corresponding > goals), including users, developers, members of the press, representatives of > companies considering supporting GNOME, and so on. The goals can be broken > down as follows: > I think one of the main goals should be the issue of integrating new members of the GNOME community. What I mean by this is encouraging people to get involved in improving GNOME. The best way to accelerate the rate of improvement of GNOME is to get more people involved. > 3. Navigation structure/usability To further my suggested goal, I think that we should have a "get involved" (or "projects of the week") top level link. This would basically lead to a section of the website that lists needed tasks from each of the various projects. conceivably it could include teh bugzilla link to the wishlist item. It would also have a contact email address for each task. These projects would let people wishing to contribute to quickly get started doing little things without much effort overhead. I think that this is really very important: GNOME should try and integrate as many new members as it can. We should push the fact that we're an open project that welcomes newcomers (as is stated in the GNOME foundation charter). If we want to push it even more, we can publish the accomplishments of new members in the "People" section that you propose, to give people a fame incentive to participate. --Ryan From jdub@giardia.yourweb.com.au Sat Dec 16 18:23:42 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from giardia.yourweb.com.au (giardia.yourweb.com.au [61.8.3.32]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EBAB2D711 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 18:11:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by giardia.yourweb.com.au (Postfix, from userid 609) id 9747B17BB1; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:11:54 +1100 (EST) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:11:54 +1100 From: Jeff Waugh To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] Message-ID: <20001217101154.D17103@giardia.yourweb.com.au> References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 03:05:26AM +0500 X-Message: Leenooks, Lienucks, Leenoos, Lienus, Let's call the whole thing off. X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.17 i686 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > I think one of the main goals should be the issue of integrating new > members of the GNOME community. What I mean by this is encouraging > people to get involved in improving GNOME. The best way to accelerate > the rate of improvement of GNOME is to get more people involved. > > To further my suggested goal, I think that we should have a "get > involved" (or "projects of the week") top level link. Absolutely. On top of Dan Meuth's "Getting Involved" document, this will help immensely, and is important enough to put on the front page. In fact, a whole section of the website could be devoted to new projects, people, things to do, etc. We just need maintainers. :) Good call, Ryan! - Jeff -- jdub@aphid.net --------------------------------- http://linux.conf.au/ -- ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI. From digitect@mindspring.com Sat Dec 16 19:35:31 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7FC92D61F for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 19:31:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4ek.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.212]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA02795; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 19:31:24 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001001c067c0$aec4f8e0$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: "Ryan Muldoon" Cc: References: <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: GNOME colors Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 19:31:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Wow. I couldn't agree more. You beat me to saying this. That. What he said. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ryan Muldoon" To: "Joakim Ziegler" Cc: ; Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 4:56 PM Subject: Re: GNOME colors > > 1. Pastels should go away - They appear nowhere in gnome artwork. In my > mind, they are almost the opposite of the general gnome aesthetic > concept. > > 2. Reds, Browns, Yellows, dark green, and greyscale seem to be the most > used colors in gnome artwork. I think the website should reflect this. > > 3. I am partial to continuing in the Tigert tradition for artwork - it > is the distinctive GNOME feel. > > 4. The background-oriented colors should be subdued and earthy (yellow, > white, grey, light brown), and then use the stronger colors for text > (black), links (red/rust/maroonish, dark green) and content. > > While in general primary colors are nice and strong and such, they have > little to do with the GNOME look and feel. It's important to consider > this when we are making the website. People should be immediately be > able to tell that it is the GNOME website, and not something else. > From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sat Dec 16 19:51:54 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A51AF2BBE4 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 19:51:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147S3g-0000xx-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 01:52:15 +0100 Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 19:49:04 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] Message-ID: <20001216194904.D21146@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 03:05:26AM +0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 03:05:26AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: >> The GNOME websites span a rather large range of audiences (and corresponding >> goals), including users, developers, members of the press, representatives of >> companies considering supporting GNOME, and so on. The goals can be broken >> down as follows: > I think one of the main goals should be the issue of integrating new > members of the GNOME community. What I mean by this is encouraging > people to get involved in improving GNOME. The best way to accelerate > the rate of improvement of GNOME is to get more people involved. I agree that participation should be encouraged. People who've read "The Mythical Man-Month" might disagree with the "The best way to accelerate the rate of improvement of GNOME is to get more people involved" statement, though. Specifically, I'm not sure if we *need* to make this a major goal. After all, the percentage of web site users that are even potential contributors is extremely small, and new contributors join GNOME every day, without the current website appealing specifically to them. It's an aspect that should be considered, but personally, I find it a lot more important to communicate well to users, and to the press. >> 3. Navigation structure/usability > To further my suggested goal, I think that we should have a "get > involved" (or "projects of the week") top level link. This would > basically lead to a section of the website that lists needed tasks from > each of the various projects. conceivably it could include teh bugzilla > link to the wishlist item. It would also have a contact email address > for each task. These projects would let people wishing to contribute to > quickly get started doing little things without much effort overhead. I > think that this is really very important: GNOME should try and integrate > as many new members as it can. We should push the fact that we're an > open project that welcomes newcomers (as is stated in the GNOME > foundation charter). This would be well served by a link in the list of "quick links" on the frontpage, I think. "Get involved" is not terribly suited to be a top-level navigation category, as it would either be too broad (by including everything that could be related to getting involved) or too narrow (specific howto type documents). > If we want to push it even more, we can publish the accomplishments of > new members in the "People" section that you propose, to give people a > fame incentive to participate. This is a good idea. It runs into the problem of knowing when someone actually enters the community, though. Most people drift around for a bit and get gradually involved. Of course, we could do this with people who made a substantial contribution (code, translation, whatever) for the first time. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sat Dec 16 20:05:06 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B2FA2BCE2 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 20:05:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147SGR-0002RN-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 02:05:28 +0100 Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 20:02:12 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 02:56:31AM +0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 02:56:31AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > While I don't have the time to do a color comp at the moment (finals), > I'd like to put in my thoughts on the web site's color scheme: > 1. Pastels should go away - They appear nowhere in gnome artwork. In my > mind, they are almost the opposite of the general gnome aesthetic > concept. I agree about the pastels. However, I think it's dangerous to invoke a "GNOME aestetic concept", since there's no such concept, in reality, it's mostly a coincidence, and caused by Tuomas doing a large part of the original icons and so on. Interestingly, the icons Tuomas has been doing lately (for instance for Evolution) have less of the brownish, earthy colors. > 2. Reds, Browns, Yellows, dark green, and greyscale seem to be the most > used colors in gnome artwork. I think the website should reflect this. > 3. I am partial to continuing in the Tigert tradition for artwork - it > is the distinctive GNOME feel. > 4. The background-oriented colors should be subdued and earthy (yellow, > white, grey, light brown), and then use the stronger colors for text > (black), links (red/rust/maroonish, dark green) and content. > As I've said before, the helixcode.com website did a good job of > reflecting the GNOME feel - we should try to do similarly (but not use > the same look, obviously). I think it is important to reflect the feel > of the GUI while we are promoting it. I agree in principle, although I'm not sure it's necessarily a very healthy restriction to impose. For instance, the current www.gnome.org site doesn't follow the GNOME icon color scheme at all, while the old www.gnome.org site did. I think there's little disagreement that the current site is a vast improvement over the old one. Additionally, some of the colors in the GNOME color scheme (especially as used on the old site) are plain bad, visually. Low-saturation greyish browns are extremely dreary colors (while reducing the contrast of the entire site, and thus the readability). There are also different goals for the visual design of a desktop people are supposed to use for 10 hours a day, every day, and a website that serves as an information and promotion channel for that same desktop. Specifically, you have a much shorter time to make and impression, so being less subdued (in color use, design, etc.) is necessary to capture the user and build brand recognition. > While in general primary colors are nice and strong and such, they have > little to do with the GNOME look and feel. It's important to consider > this when we are making the website. People should be immediately be > able to tell that it is the GNOME website, and not something else. Well, I agree that brand recognition is nice. However, as it stands, GNOME has practically no brand at all, beyond the desktop itself (and modelling a web site strictly over a desktop is a very bad idea). Rather than assuming that we should let the look of the desktop dictate the look of the website, I think it would be reasonable to have a back and forth effect. We're in a position to break new ground and make the best GNOME site ever. If the choice stands between a good site that has a strong visual bond to the desktop, and a great site that breaks some of those conventions, I'll go for the great one any day. In short, I'm fine with using the GNOME icon inspired colors, if we can build a great website on it. But I'm not willing to make it the deciding factor in what the final site is going to look like. There are other, more important priorities. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From jdub@giardia.yourweb.com.au Sat Dec 16 20:14:49 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from giardia.yourweb.com.au (giardia.yourweb.com.au [61.8.3.32]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A03D62BEAB for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 20:14:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by giardia.yourweb.com.au (Postfix, from userid 609) id C1ABA17E89; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 12:14:46 +1100 (EST) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 12:14:46 +1100 From: Jeff Waugh To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001217121446.B32045@giardia.yourweb.com.au> References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 02:56:31AM +0500 X-Message: Leenooks, Lienucks, Leenoos, Lienus, Let's call the whole thing off. X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.17 i686 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > 1. Pastels should go away - They appear nowhere in gnome artwork. In my > mind, they are almost the opposite of the general gnome aesthetic > concept. They appear on the Gnome website. :) I think the pastels got a tough review - and for the wrong reasons. Can you remember the old site? Sure, it had "coder's tables" and murky layout, but the colours? Choosing colours for the website is essentially one of the steps in branding Gnome. Do you want to be stuck with dreary, earthy, dank tones, or something upbeat, sleek and futurey? (Terrible marketing words, I know...) > 2. Reds, Browns, Yellows, dark green, and greyscale seem to be the most > used colors in gnome artwork. I think the website should reflect this. Where is this "Gnome artwork"? The Foot? The icons? Stuff stuck in our minds from days gone by? All those browns lead to murky, not perky (good god, now I'm rhyming) - perhaps we should discuss wider branding ideas with the Foundation. > 3. I am partial to continuing in the Tigert tradition for artwork - it > is the distinctive GNOME feel. "What happens if Linus is run over by a bus?" ==> s/Linus/tigert/ The Gnome look'n'feel is already progressing - see the work on Red Carpet, Helix Setup Tools, Evolution, Nautilus... Not much brown in there! :D All the interfaces are going *funky*, not muddy. (My little brother asked if Gnomes wiped their feet after putting their footprints in the website background...) Warm yellows (Helix bubble-buttons) and subtle use of burgundy, with the light Gnome-feet off-whites as shading is looking interesting. I'll do a colour comp in a minute. > People should be immediately be able to tell that it is the GNOME > website, and not something else. That's defintely true - but we can 'remake tradition' at this point too. :) - Jeff -- jdub@aphid.net --------------------------------- http://linux.conf.au/ -- ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI. From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Sat Dec 16 20:29:58 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 339372BBE4 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 20:29:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id TAA233604 (8.9.1/50); Sat, 16 Dec 2000 19:29:44 -0600 Message-Id: <200012170129.TAA233604@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] From: Ryan Muldoon To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20001216194904.D21146@helixcode.com> References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216194904.D21146@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 17 Dec 2000 05:30:52 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > I think one of the main goals should be the issue of integrating new > > members of the GNOME community. What I mean by this is encouraging > > people to get involved in improving GNOME. The best way to accelerate > > the rate of improvement of GNOME is to get more people involved. > > I agree that participation should be encouraged. People who've read "The > Mythical Man-Month" might disagree with the "The best way to accelerate the > rate of improvement of GNOME is to get more people involved" statement, though. > This has nothing to do with "The Mythical Man-Month" in my opinion. I am not talking about huge, key parts of projects to be offered up. I am talking about the simple, nice-to-have projecs that the core developers just don't have time to do. Think of the "Project of the Week" that Havoc Pennington used to do back when there were weekly status reports. > Specifically, I'm not sure if we *need* to make this a major goal. After all, > the percentage of web site users that are even potential contributors is > extremely small, and new contributors join GNOME every day, without the > current website appealing specifically to them. It's an aspect that should be > considered, but personally, I find it a lot more important to communicate > well to users, and to the press. > I really think we do need to make this a major goal. We should be lowering the barrier to entry for participation as much as we can. I think if we can make it nearly trivial to find a little something to do for GNOME, someone who is looking to kill a few hours might do it, and end up wanting to contribute more in the future. GNOME can get all the press in the world, but to really make it, it needs an enthusiastic community behind it. People like the fact that when they look at the back of RedHat boxes, they see their work in one of the screenshots. If we can make this easy, it helps that many more people contribute. > >> 3. Navigation structure/usability > > > To further my suggested goal, I think that we should have a "get > > involved" (or "projects of the week") top level link. This would > > basically lead to a section of the website that lists needed tasks from > > each of the various projects. conceivably it could include teh bugzilla > > link to the wishlist item. It would also have a contact email address > > for each task. These projects would let people wishing to contribute to > > quickly get started doing little things without much effort overhead. I > > think that this is really very important: GNOME should try and integrate > > as many new members as it can. We should push the fact that we're an > > open project that welcomes newcomers (as is stated in the GNOME > > foundation charter). > > This would be well served by a link in the list of "quick links" on the > frontpage, I think. "Get involved" is not terribly suited to be a top-level > navigation category, as it would either be too broad (by including everything > that could be related to getting involved) or too narrow (specific howto type > documents). > The "Get Involved" or "Projects of the Week" (which is probably a better name) shouldn't be categories, you're right. I used some poor wording. What I meant was that it should be a link that appears on every page: a main link. It won't be linking to "howtos" either - it would go to a page that lists little, easy to understand projects that could use doing. For instance: translating something, or writing documentation for a little applet, or coding a part of something, or making an applet, etc. > > > If we want to push it even more, we can publish the accomplishments of > > new members in the "People" section that you propose, to give people a > > fame incentive to participate. > > This is a good idea. It runs into the problem of knowing when someone > actually enters the community, though. Most people drift around for a bit and > get gradually involved. Of course, we could do this with people who made a > substantial contribution (code, translation, whatever) for the first time. > It could just be done when a new person does one of the projects of the week. Easy to figure that out. --Ryan From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Sat Dec 16 20:46:41 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A36AD2BAB8 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 20:46:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id TAA129434 (8.9.1/50); Sat, 16 Dec 2000 19:46:23 -0600 Message-Id: <200012170146.TAA129434@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: GNOME colors From: Ryan Muldoon To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 17 Dec 2000 05:47:32 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 02:56:31AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > > While I don't have the time to do a color comp at the moment (finals), > > I'd like to put in my thoughts on the web site's color scheme: > > > 1. Pastels should go away - They appear nowhere in gnome artwork. In my > > mind, they are almost the opposite of the general gnome aesthetic > > concept. > > I agree about the pastels. However, I think it's dangerous to invoke a "GNOME > aestetic concept", since there's no such concept, in reality, it's mostly a > coincidence, and caused by Tuomas doing a large part of the original icons > and so on. Interestingly, the icons Tuomas has been doing lately (for > instance for Evolution) have less of the brownish, earthy colors. > I really do think that there is a given palette that people think of when they think of GNOME. The Evolution icons still are using reds, greyscale, and yellow, and a bit of brown, so I don't know what you mean.....they are still consistent with the previous icons. > > 2. Reds, Browns, Yellows, dark green, and greyscale seem to be the most > > used colors in gnome artwork. I think the website should reflect this. > > > 3. I am partial to continuing in the Tigert tradition for artwork - it > > is the distinctive GNOME feel. > > > 4. The background-oriented colors should be subdued and earthy (yellow, > > white, grey, light brown), and then use the stronger colors for text > > (black), links (red/rust/maroonish, dark green) and content. > > > As I've said before, the helixcode.com website did a good job of > > reflecting the GNOME feel - we should try to do similarly (but not use > > the same look, obviously). I think it is important to reflect the feel > > of the GUI while we are promoting it. > > I agree in principle, although I'm not sure it's necessarily a very healthy > restriction to impose. For instance, the current www.gnome.org site doesn't > follow the GNOME icon color scheme at all, while the old www.gnome.org site > did. I think there's little disagreement that the current site is a vast > improvement over the old one. > well, in some respects yes, but in others, I think it is much worse. The older websites weren't as fancy, etc, and used tables poorly, but they got some things right. The blue swoosh things on the current website are just wastes of screen real estate, and don't match the normal GNOME colors. The menus are graphics rather than text, which is not wise for many reasons. Their colors are also odd. The "Computing Made Easy" slogan I also think is bad. But having a white background is nice, as it is clean looking. > Additionally, some of the colors in the GNOME color scheme (especially as > used on the old site) are plain bad, visually. Low-saturation greyish browns > are extremely dreary colors (while reducing the contrast of the entire site, > and thus the readability). There are also different goals for the visual > design of a desktop people are supposed to use for 10 hours a day, every day, > and a website that serves as an information and promotion channel for that > same desktop. Specifically, you have a much shorter time to make and > impression, so being less subdued (in color use, design, etc.) is necessary > to capture the user and build brand recognition. > > I think that you are ignoring the fact that you can still easily produce contrast. Those low saturation colors are extremely suitable for things in the background - muted highlighting, etc. Black and white, and proper use of reds will give us plenty of contrast. I am by no means suggesting that we put brown text on a yellow background - that is just silly. Black text on a white background should be a given. However, I think that having the "decorative" parts of the site being somewhat muted is an advantage rather than a disadvantage. It doesn't distract the user's eyes from the content. This is something that people who need to get at information appreciate. How can you buiild brand recognition if the colors/feel you use have nothing to do with the product? > > While in general primary colors are nice and strong and such, they have > > little to do with the GNOME look and feel. It's important to consider > > this when we are making the website. People should be immediately be > > able to tell that it is the GNOME website, and not something else. > > Well, I agree that brand recognition is nice. However, as it stands, GNOME > has practically no brand at all, beyond the desktop itself (and modelling a > web site strictly over a desktop is a very bad idea). Rather than assuming > that we should let the look of the desktop dictate the look of the website, I > think it would be reasonable to have a back and forth effect. We're in a > position to break new ground and make the best GNOME site ever. If the choice > stands between a good site that has a strong visual bond to the desktop, and > a great site that breaks some of those conventions, I'll go for the great one > any day. > I am not suggesting that we organize the site as we would a desktop. they are two different media. However, I don't think that the website should influence the desktop either - I don't know how you would do this in the first place. I think that the "tigert" feel is rather nice. I am one of those people that use their computer for 10 hours a day, so I appreciate the aesthetic quality. One ot the reasons I enjoy using GNOME so much is that it is rather attractive and sophisticated feeling. If we were to make a "great" GNOME website with magenta and orange, I would call it a poor GNOME website. In my experience, there is a difference between a great generic website and a great branded website. > In short, I'm fine with using the GNOME icon inspired colors, if we can build > a great website on it. But I'm not willing to make it the deciding factor in > what the final site is going to look like. There are other, more important > priorities. > I just want to make sure that we website actually represents GNOME. That should be the most important deciding factor. I'm sure you agree with me.....perhaps we just see different ways of arriving at that goal. --Ryan From digitect@mindspring.com Sat Dec 16 21:05:29 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D6CD2BAB8 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:05:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4ek.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.212]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA28032; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:05:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: "Joakim Ziegler" , References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> Subject: Re: GNOME colors Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:05:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work From: "Joakim Ziegler" Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 9:02 PM Subject: Re: GNOME colors > I think there's little disagreement that the current site is a vast > improvement over the old one. I'm not sure I would agree. One of the things I first noticed about GNOME was the softer tone of the web site. I tire of getting hit with primaries and contrast at every page I go to, and the old GNOME site was a refreshing change. (No offense intended Joakim, just my preference.) > > Additionally, some of the colors in the GNOME color scheme (especially as > used on the old site) are plain bad, visually. Low-saturation greyish browns > are extremely dreary colors (while reducing the contrast of the entire site, > and thus the readability). There are also different goals for the visual > design of a desktop people are supposed to use for 10 hours a day, every day, > and a website that serves as an information and promotion channel for that > same desktop. Specifically, you have a much shorter time to make and > impression, so being less subdued (in color use, design, etc.) is necessary > to capture the user and build brand recognition. This is *definitely* a matter of aesthetic opinion. What you say is "dreary" I think is easy on the eyes. Fact is, when you stare at a monitor 10 hours a day, a slightly lower intensity and contrast is more desirable. (Not too much of course, just a little.) Also, I don't care about making a visual splash and capturing the casual visitor to the site through theatrics. GNOME is better. That's why you would want to use it. Let's make the site *clear*, useful and navigable and let the user judge for himself whether or not GNOME is better. Sooner or later, flash runs out of steam, and they'll go on to something else. There's a saying in architecture: "If you can't make it good, make it big. If you can't make it big, paint it red." Let's just make it good. > Well, I agree that brand recognition is nice. However, as it stands, GNOME > has practically no brand at all, beyond the desktop itself (and modelling a > web site strictly over a desktop is a very bad idea). Rather than assuming > that we should let the look of the desktop dictate the look of the website, I > think it would be reasonable to have a back and forth effect.... I agree, with the caveat that the desktop is basically so flexible that it doesn't really have a look (especially with upcoming meta-themeing flexibility). *Except* for the icons ... ... which is why I'm a big proponent of keeping the site very minimal (of color) except for the desktop art we choose to use. It expresses the aesthetic of GNOME better than anything else. Ok, now my turn. Try these on: http://www.mindspring.com/~steve_hall/gnome/comp-stevehall03.htm http://www.mindspring.com/~steve_hall/gnome/comp-stevehall02d.htm (This one is *not* intended to be a real proposal, just a way of testing icons against a gray on charcoal scheme.) The first test comp is obviously neutral. But as you can see from the developer alternative, with neutrality comes flexibility. If we make the main GNOME site's colors too strong, the myriad related application and project sites will have much more of a struggle to maintain/create their own identity while still incorporating some flavor of the central GNOME site. Take the current site's "pastels". Anybody else using them? Of course not, because it's too strong to be identifiable as anything other than the main site. I guess I'm trying to say that these pages, like the desktop, is a canvas on which many projects and applications are painted. It isn't supposed to stand out, just be a good supporting structure. Let's keep it clear and somewhat neutral. It can still be kickin if the composition is proportional and we express style through the subtler things. Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Sat Dec 16 21:06:15 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0814B2BAB8 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:06:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id UAA128390 (8.9.1/50); Sat, 16 Dec 2000 20:05:42 -0600 Message-Id: <200012170205.UAA128390@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: GNOME colors From: Ryan Muldoon To: Jeff Waugh Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20001217121446.B32045@giardia.yourweb.com.au> References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001217121446.B32045@giardia.yourweb.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 17 Dec 2000 06:06:50 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > > > 1. Pastels should go away - They appear nowhere in gnome artwork. In my > > mind, they are almost the opposite of the general gnome aesthetic > > concept. > > > They appear on the Gnome website. :) I think the pastels got a tough review > - and for the wrong reasons. Can you remember the old site? Sure, it had > "coder's tables" and murky layout, but the colours? > Right, but they shouldn't have been there. See my reply to Joakim about the current website vs. the old ones. > Choosing colours for the website is essentially one of the steps in branding > Gnome. Do you want to be stuck with dreary, earthy, dank tones, or something > upbeat, sleek and futurey? (Terrible marketing words, I know...) > Where in the GNOME desktop do you find sleek and futurey looking design/colors? I don't see much metallic sheen in my desktop. I rather like the calm, muted tones - and I know a great deal of others do as well. The website should reflect how the desktop is. > > 2. Reds, Browns, Yellows, dark green, and greyscale seem to be the most > > used colors in gnome artwork. I think the website should reflect this. > > > Where is this "Gnome artwork"? The Foot? The icons? Stuff stuck in our minds > from days gone by? All those browns lead to murky, not perky (good god, now > I'm rhyming) - perhaps we should discuss wider branding ideas with the > Foundation. > Do we want the KDE-style "perky" icons (that some might call overly bright and childish)? I don't know what you mean here. The "days gone by" are the foundation of what GNOME is today. They were a big reason why I started using GNOME in the .30 days (2 or 3 websites ago). I think we should keep on with the subtle and sophisticated look that GNOME has. > > 3. I am partial to continuing in the Tigert tradition for artwork - it > > is the distinctive GNOME feel. > > > "What happens if Linus is run over by a bus?" ==> s/Linus/tigert/ > Lots of people can and have made artwork in the tigert style. A friend of mine made a dozen or so, and I can't tell who made which ones. I think that a style shouldn't be dictated by more than one or two people........otherwise it isn't consistent. > The Gnome look'n'feel is already progressing - see the work on Red Carpet, > Helix Setup Tools, Evolution, Nautilus... Not much brown in there! :D All > the interfaces are going *funky*, not muddy. (My little brother asked if > Gnomes wiped their feet after putting their footprints in the website > background...) > Nautilus' Eazel theme definitely clashes with the rest of GNOME, and I think that is a mistake. Thankfully there are many other themes to use, some of which match rather nicely. I don't think that brown sums up the GNOME look....there are a lot of other colors that GNOME uses currently. I don't see how anything is muddy currently. But I would strongly advise against "funky." > Warm yellows (Helix bubble-buttons) and subtle use of burgundy, with the > light Gnome-feet off-whites as shading is looking interesting. I'll do a > colour comp in a minute. > we'll see......the bubble-buttons seem gratuitus to me, I was hoping that they wouldn't be there in the final version of Red Carpet. > > People should be immediately be able to tell that it is the GNOME > > website, and not something else. > > > That's defintely true - but we can 'remake tradition' at this point too. :) Well, to remake tradition, we would have to redo all of the existing artwork. Personally, I'm not up to the task. I'm sure that people would like to see your (or others') effort in this direction. I don't see how we can brand something when promotional material doesn't match the actual product. --Ryan From jdub@giardia.yourweb.com.au Sat Dec 16 21:48:28 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from giardia.yourweb.com.au (giardia.yourweb.com.au [61.8.3.32]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19DA62D623 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:47:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by giardia.yourweb.com.au (Postfix, from userid 609) id 420DA17E89; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:47:39 +1100 (EST) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:47:39 +1100 From: Jeff Waugh To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001217134739.C32045@giardia.yourweb.com.au> References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001217121446.B32045@giardia.yourweb.com.au> <200012170205.UAA128390@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012170205.UAA128390@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 06:06:50AM +0500 X-Message: Leenooks, Lienucks, Leenoos, Lienus, Let's call the whole thing off. X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.17 i686 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > Where in the GNOME desktop do you find sleek and futurey looking > design/colors? I don't see much metallic sheen in my desktop. All these words are heavily subjective - but there is a strong difference between "subtle" and "murky". The old Gnome site was murky, the new one is bold; it seems that there's interest in a middle-ground. But of desktops? Gnome is flexible enough to allow many styles - mine happens to be what I would call "sleek". Which is why... > The website should reflect how the desktop is. ... I think this is a fallacy - at least if by "reflect" you mean "look like". Gnome desktops are so diverse that choosing a website look'n'feel to integrate with a desktop feel so strongly is almost impossible. I'm not a fan of using desktop icons on the website, except for obvious highlights and cooperative illustration. Using them for navigation, etc., is not a great idea. How many websites reflect the look of their associated GUI? One: Apple's, and because they're so tied to it, because it's so visually strong itself, they can. > Do we want the KDE-style "perky" icons (that some might call overly > bright and childish)? I don't know what you mean here. I think the tigert-style Gnome icons are perky. The tiger shell, the mushroom - that's perk! :D They have a light, fun feeling. KDE's icons are just cardboard cutouts. > > "What happens if Linus is run over by a bus?" ==> s/Linus/tigert/ > > Lots of people can and have made artwork in the tigert style. There was a joke there. :) > Nautilus' Eazel theme definitely clashes with the rest of GNOME, and I > think that is a mistake. 8< snip 8< > we'll see......the bubble-buttons seem gratuitus to me, I was hoping > that they wouldn't be there in the final version of Red Carpet. Changing, progressing. > Well, to remake tradition, we would have to redo all of the existing > artwork. Heh. No, we'll just always have it as an influence on continuing change. The main point here is that the website shouldn't have an incredibly strong binding to the desktop. Different media, different styles, different presentations, etc. It has to work within the context of being a website - if that means being different to the multitudes of looks that our desktops may take, that's fine. - Jeff -- jdub@aphid.net --------------------------------- http://linux.conf.au/ -- ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI. From steve_hall@mindspring.com Sat Dec 16 21:16:43 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D4BD2BAB8 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:16:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4ek.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.212]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA17235 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:16:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <005701c067cf$6492b000$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "Steve Hall" To: Subject: IRC? Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:16:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Say, anybody interested in fleshing out ideas in IRC? Even if nobody's around right now, maybe we could schedule a regular session to hash stuff out. Would that be productive or just promote flameage? Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From steve_hall@mindspring.com Sat Dec 16 21:44:17 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 801E22BAB8 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:44:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4ek.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.212]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA22940 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:44:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <008b01c067d3$3e93ae00$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "Steve Hall" To: Subject: Re: GNOME colors Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:44:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > Ok, now my turn. Try these on: > > http://www.mindspring.com/~steve_hall/gnome/comp-stevehall03.htm > I forgot and uploaded this page with a Times font. I had been going back and forth--try this one for sans-serif (ahh, the beauty of style sheets, huh?): http://www.mindspring.com/~steve_hall/gnome/comp-stevehall02e.htm (Again, this is *not* intended to be a design proposal, just a color test with the icon art.) Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sat Dec 16 22:24:26 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 510712BAAA for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 22:24:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147URL-0004Vy-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 04:24:48 +0100 Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 22:22:14 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001216222214.F21146@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <200012170146.TAA129434@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012170146.TAA129434@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 05:47:32AM +0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 05:47:32AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > I really do think that there is a given palette that people think of > when they think of GNOME. > The Evolution icons still are using reds, greyscale, and yellow, and a > bit of brown, so I don't know what you mean.....they are still > consistent with the previous icons. They're not particularly brown, they're not particularly subdued in color (even using some orange arrows, etc.), and so on. I suggest you take a look at the screenshots. If anything, Tuomas' style is maintained in the style of drawing, not the colors. >> I agree in principle, although I'm not sure it's necessarily a very healthy >> restriction to impose. For instance, the current www.gnome.org site doesn't >> follow the GNOME icon color scheme at all, while the old www.gnome.org site >> did. I think there's little disagreement that the current site is a vast >> improvement over the old one. > well, in some respects yes, but in others, I think it is much > worse. The older websites weren't as fancy, etc, and used tables > poorly, but they got some things right. The blue swoosh things on the > current website are just wastes of screen real estate, and don't match > the normal GNOME colors. The menus are graphics rather than text, which > is not wise for many reasons. Their colors are also odd. The > "Computing Made Easy" slogan I also think is bad. But having a white > background is nice, as it is clean looking. Well, those might be your opinions, but the last redesign was met with roaring approval through all stages of the design, by the entire GNOME marketing group, and considered an improvement in all ways. The idea that adding space (and subsequently making it look better with graphical elements) is a waste of screen realestate is a seriously misguided one, as anyone versed in graphical design will tell you. The slogan was chosen by the GNOME marketing group, which included just about everyone relevant to GNOME marketing at the time, such as Elliot, Miguel, Bart, and quite a few others. To reiterate, you're entitled to your opinions, but it would be unwise to represent them as the one and only truth. > I think that you are ignoring the fact that you can still easily produce > contrast. Those low saturation colors are extremely suitable for things > in the background - muted highlighting, etc. Black and white, and > proper use of reds will give us plenty of contrast. I am by no means > suggesting that we put brown text on a yellow background - that is just > silly. Black text on a white background should be a given. However, I > think that having the "decorative" parts of the site being somewhat > muted is an advantage rather than a disadvantage. It doesn't distract > the user's eyes from the content. This is something that people who > need to get at information appreciate. > How can you buiild brand recognition if the colors/feel you use have > nothing to do with the product? Coca-Cola is black (well, dark brown). Yet, the label and all other marketing is red and white. Pepsi is the same color as coke, but their colors are mainly blues and whites, with some red. Etc. You're confusing the brand and the product, which is detrimental to both. The branding (and subsequently the website) has a completely different set of goals than what the look and feel of the desktop has. I outlined this in the previous mail as well. > I am not suggesting that we organize the site as we would a > desktop. they are two different media. However, I don't think that the > website should influence the desktop either - I don't know how you would > do this in the first place. I think that the "tigert" feel is rather > nice. I am one of those people that use their computer for 10 hours a > day, so I appreciate the aesthetic quality. One ot the reasons I enjoy > using GNOME so much is that it is rather attractive and sophisticated > feeling. If we were to make a "great" GNOME website with magenta and > orange, I would call it a poor GNOME website. In my experience, there > is a difference between a great generic website and a great branded > website. Well, you're not going to be using the website for 10 hours straight, that's my exact point. This is just one of the many ways in which a website differs from a desktop (the others being the goal of using it, the portion of screen realestate it takes up, the context (surfing around versus working), and in short just about everything else). >> In short, I'm fine with using the GNOME icon inspired colors, if we can build >> a great website on it. But I'm not willing to make it the deciding factor in >> what the final site is going to look like. There are other, more important >> priorities. > I just want to make sure that we website actually represents > GNOME. That should be the most important deciding factor. I'm sure you > agree with me.....perhaps we just see different ways of arriving at that > goal. There are plenty of ways a website can represent GNOME. The GNOME project founders and leaders felt that the current website represented GNOME very well, at the time I made it, and it has absolutely zero brown. As I said it before, if you can make a color scheme that uses what you fele are GNOME colors and make it an attractive, professional-looking, sleek site that will appeal to new users and veterans alike, by all means. But I repeat, I will not make it a deciding factor. The quality of the site in general, and the image it projects, is much more important. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sat Dec 16 22:37:29 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 067B22BAAA for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 22:37:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147Udy-00072U-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 04:37:51 +0100 Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 22:35:21 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001216223521.G21146@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001>; from digitect@mindspring.com on Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 09:05:25PM -0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 09:05:25PM -0500, digitect wrote: >> I think there's little disagreement that the current site is a vast >> improvement over the old one. > I'm not sure I would agree. One of the things I first noticed about GNOME > was the softer tone of the web site. I tire of getting hit with primaries > and contrast at every page I go to, and the old GNOME site was a refreshing > change. (No offense intended Joakim, just my preference.) See my mail to Ryan Muldoon for a comprehensive explanation of the background for the current www.gnome.org design. >> Additionally, some of the colors in the GNOME color scheme (especially as >> used on the old site) are plain bad, visually. Low-saturation greyish browns >> are extremely dreary colors (while reducing the contrast of the entire site, >> and thus the readability). There are also different goals for the visual >> design of a desktop people are supposed to use for 10 hours a day, every day, >> and a website that serves as an information and promotion channel for that >> same desktop. Specifically, you have a much shorter time to make and >> impression, so being less subdued (in color use, design, etc.) is necessary >> to capture the user and build brand recognition. > This is *definitely* a matter of aesthetic opinion. What you say is "dreary" > I think is easy on the eyes. Fact is, when you stare at a monitor 10 hours a > day, a slightly lower intensity and contrast is more desirable. (Not too > much of course, just a little.) As mentioned elewhere, you're not going to be staring at the GNOME website for 10 hours every day. Also, please read the literature on the impact of contrast on legibility and comprehension (Nielsen has a few good passages on this). > Also, I don't care about making a visual splash and capturing the casual > visitor to the site through theatrics. GNOME is better. That's why you would > want to use it. Let's make the site *clear*, useful and navigable and let > the user judge for himself whether or not GNOME is better. Sooner or later, > flash runs out of steam, and they'll go on to something else. There's a > saying in architecture: "If you can't make it good, make it big. If you > can't make it big, paint it red." Let's just make it good. If you have a good way of showing people the total spectrum of quality that GNOME represents in the 5-10 seconds a typical user will dedicate to the front page of an average site before he either gets interested or moves on, please let me know. Please do not erect strawman arguments like this. I'm clearly not arguing that we make it good-looking instead of good, I'm saying we do both. > Ok, now my turn. Try these on: > http://www.mindspring.com/~steve_hall/gnome/comp-stevehall03.htm Personally, I find these colors to be awfully bland and boring. Others might disagree. > http://www.mindspring.com/~steve_hall/gnome/comp-stevehall02d.htm (This one > is *not* intended to be a real proposal, just a way of testing icons against > a gray on charcoal scheme.) > The first test comp is obviously neutral. But as you can see from the > developer alternative, with neutrality comes flexibility. If we make the > main GNOME site's colors too strong, the myriad related application and > project sites will have much more of a struggle to maintain/create their own > identity while still incorporating some flavor of the central GNOME site. > Take the current site's "pastels". Anybody else using them? Of course not, > because it's too strong to be identifiable as anything other than the main > site. I don't think it's our goal to make a reusable design framework of some kind, which can be used by any random project site that happens to be related to GNOME. It might be a good idea to have such a framework, to make it easier for GNOME projects to create attractive and presentable web pages without too much work, but that's a separate effort from the main GNOME pages. There are many good reasons for *not* encouraging a spread/bastardization of the design, such as the confusion that would arise, with people potentially confusing random project sites and the main sites, possibly with content whose quality or reliability we can't vounch for, etc. This is known as brand dilution, and is considered a Bad Thing. So let's create this design with the GNOME sites in mind, not with generic project sites, for whose sake we need to be bland and nonintrusive. Gods know it's a big enough job as it is. > I guess I'm trying to say that these pages, like the desktop, is a canvas on > which many projects and applications are painted. It isn't supposed to stand > out, just be a good supporting structure. Let's keep it clear and somewhat > neutral. It can still be kickin if the composition is proportional and we > express style through the subtler things. As I've said countless times, feel free to create a wonderful site design using these colors. I'm still not willing to let the use or non-use of brown become a deciding factor in whether or not a design is "good enough for the GNOME sites". -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From digitect@mindspring.com Sun Dec 17 00:00:36 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23BF52DB51 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 00:00:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4ek.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.212]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA22112; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 00:00:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <013901c067e6$48ab51a0$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: "Joakim Ziegler" , References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001216223521.G21146@helixcode.com> Subject: Re: GNOME colors Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 00:00:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work All right everybody, at the risk of continuing a flamewar, I respectfully submit my rebuttals below... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joakim Ziegler" To: Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 11:35 PM Subject: Re: GNOME colors > On Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 09:05:25PM -0500, digitect wrote: > > >> I think there's little disagreement that the current site is a vast > >> improvement over the old one. > > > I'm not sure I would agree. One of the things I first noticed about GNOME > > was the softer tone of the web site. I tire of getting hit with primaries > > and contrast at every page I go to, and the old GNOME site was a refreshing > > change. (No offense intended Joakim, just my preference.) > > See my mail to Ryan Muldoon for a comprehensive explanation of the background > for the current www.gnome.org design. (which were): "Well, those might be your opinions, but the last redesign was met with roaring approval through all stages of the design, by the entire GNOME marketing group, and considered an improvement in all ways." Several points: 1. The marketing group's opinion is not gospel. I am interested in alternative perspectives, those which do not necessarily play well to the masses and therefore the business/marketing side of things. I'm sure there are many individuals in the GNOME movement that would agree, that's why half of us are here in this alternative OS anyway. 2. I would hardly classify even the most enthusiastic artistic critisizm as "roaring". Really, why are we even talking about re-design if there seems to be general approval for the site as it stands? 3. Aesthetic critique is nothing to get defensive about. Neither Ryan or myself are discussing your artistic sensibilities or talents. I can't speak for him, but I'm just expressing some of the appeal that the old scheme appealed to me. > >> Additionally, some of the colors in the GNOME color scheme (especially as > >> used on the old site) are plain bad, visually. Low-saturation greyish browns > >> are extremely dreary colors (while reducing the contrast of the entire site, > >> and thus the readability). There are also different goals for the visual > >> design of a desktop people are supposed to use for 10 hours a day, every day, > >> and a website that serves as an information and promotion channel for that > >> same desktop. Specifically, you have a much shorter time to make and > >> impression, so being less subdued (in color use, design, etc.) is necessary > >> to capture the user and build brand recognition. > > > This is *definitely* a matter of aesthetic opinion. What you say is "dreary" > > I think is easy on the eyes. Fact is, when you stare at a monitor 10 hours a > > day, a slightly lower intensity and contrast is more desirable. (Not too > > much of course, just a little.) > > As mentioned elewhere, you're not going to be staring at the GNOME website > for 10 hours every day. Also, please read the literature on the impact of > contrast on legibility and comprehension (Nielsen has a few good passages on > this). As you probably know, ultra-high contrast (red on blue for example) is also extremely illegible. So then we must be talking about a balance point somewhere in between, a matter of suitability and appropriateness. To simply say "black on white is correct and nothing else is" fails to appreciate some of the finer subtleties of design, as I'm sure you would agree. What we're all trying to do here is to agree on what is legible and what isn't, not conduct some sort of physiological lightwave rod and cone interface analysis in 4 out of 5 dentists. Indeed, my own comp uses a white background with charcoal text, which I think is perfectly readable. But I'm open for other people's alternative suggestions, too. > > > Also, I don't care about making a visual splash and capturing the casual > > visitor to the site through theatrics. GNOME is better. That's why you would > > want to use it. Let's make the site *clear*, useful and navigable and let > > the user judge for himself whether or not GNOME is better. Sooner or later, > > flash runs out of steam, and they'll go on to something else. There's a > > saying in architecture: "If you can't make it good, make it big. If you > > can't make it big, paint it red." Let's just make it good. > > If you have a good way of showing people the total spectrum of quality that > GNOME represents in the 5-10 seconds a typical user will dedicate to the > front page of an average site before he either gets interested or moves on, > please let me know. > > Please do not erect strawman arguments like this. I'm clearly not arguing > that we make it good-looking instead of good, I'm saying we do both. And I'm not saying that good-looking isn't important either. But it's easy to get enticed by a lot of fancy colors and miss the point. GNOME is about quality and that quality comes through the character and the philosophy that created it. I don't think we should compromise our principles just because it plays well to the 5 second visitor. > > > Ok, now my turn. Try these on: > > > http://www.mindspring.com/~steve_hall/gnome/comp-stevehall03.htm > > Personally, I find these colors to be awfully bland and boring. Others might > disagree. Heh. It's not trying to be exciting, just informative. Roadway signs aren't the most exciting thing I've ever seen either, but they get me to where I'm going. (We all seem to be disagreeing lately, aren't we? But you're entitled.) > > > http://www.mindspring.com/~steve_hall/gnome/comp-stevehall02d.htm (This one > > is *not* intended to be a real proposal, just a way of testing icons against > > a gray on charcoal scheme.) > > > The first test comp is obviously neutral. But as you can see from the > > developer alternative, with neutrality comes flexibility. If we make the > > main GNOME site's colors too strong, the myriad related application and > > project sites will have much more of a struggle to maintain/create their own > > identity while still incorporating some flavor of the central GNOME site. > > Take the current site's "pastels". Anybody else using them? Of course not, > > because it's too strong to be identifiable as anything other than the main > > site. > > I don't think it's our goal to make a reusable design framework of some kind, > which can be used by any random project site that happens to be related to > GNOME. It might be a good idea to have such a framework, to make it easier > for GNOME projects to create attractive and presentable web pages without too > much work, but that's a separate effort from the main GNOME pages. > > There are many good reasons for *not* encouraging a spread/bastardization of > the design, such as the confusion that would arise, with people potentially > confusing random project sites and the main sites, possibly with content > whose quality or reliability we can't vounch for, etc. This is known as brand > dilution, and is considered a Bad Thing. > > So let's create this design with the GNOME sites in mind, not with generic > project sites, for whose sake we need to be bland and nonintrusive. Gods know > it's a big enough job as it is. Wait a second. Have we started selling GNOME lately and nobody told me? Has the GPL been revoked?! I thought that the whole idea behind the GNOME desktop was Free extensibility among as many applications as desire. Since when does the brand of GNOME matter? Let's leave branding up to HelixCode and Eazel, GNOME is more about a philosophy of software development. All I'm saying is that the GNOME web site should have an identifiable *character* and resulting style which is suggested through many subtle (and perhaps some more obvious) artistic vehicles. My point is that these vehicles need to align with the character of the desktop, not be attention-begging flares for a desktop desparate for market share. Truely, if GNOME is the best (and Free) than it can't help but succeed. Again, let's not overstate the point. > > > I guess I'm trying to say that these pages, like the desktop, is a canvas on > > which many projects and applications are painted. It isn't supposed to stand > > out, just be a good supporting structure. Let's keep it clear and somewhat > > neutral. It can still be kickin if the composition is proportional and we > > express style through the subtler things. > > As I've said countless times, feel free to create a wonderful site design > using these colors. I'm still not willing to let the use or non-use of brown > become a deciding factor in whether or not a design is "good enough for the > GNOME sites". > Well, at some point we have to evaluate our interpretations of color. I am fundamentally opposed to a red background, for example. Brown (as you call it), on the other hand, conveys to me the soft-spoken, earthiness of a product that doesn't mind standing on it's own substance and merits. To quote Martha Stewart, "This is a good thing!" It is introverted, which means the visitor has to *ask* questions about GNOME, a sure way to get them *more* involved (as Socrates would tell you). Maybe not quite as many, but definitely a better caliber of folks would stick around. Of course this is all subjective. But that's why we're all talking about this, right? Ok, that's all I have to say. GNOME is a pretty cool thing to me, and has some refreshing qualities that aren't so popular these days. I'm just fighting for a chance to maintain that character in the web site because I care about it. (Oh, and BTW. When you said, "I think this doom metal is making me slightly aggressive. Perhaps I shouldn't listen to this stuff while writing on mailing lists," I think I agree. ;) No hard feelings, Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sun Dec 17 00:36:00 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 244412D713 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 00:35:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147WUf-0001f2-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 06:36:22 +0100 Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 00:33:51 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001217003351.J21146@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001216223521.G21146@helixcode.com> <013901c067e6$48ab51a0$0201a8c0@pc001> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <013901c067e6$48ab51a0$0201a8c0@pc001>; from digitect@mindspring.com on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 12:00:31AM -0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 12:00:31AM -0500, digitect wrote: >> On Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 09:05:25PM -0500, digitect wrote: >> See my mail to Ryan Muldoon for a comprehensive explanation of the >> background for the current www.gnome.org design. > (which were): "Well, those might be your opinions, but the last redesign > was met with > roaring approval through all stages of the design, by the entire GNOME > marketing group, and considered an improvement in all ways." > Several points: > 1. The marketing group's opinion is not gospel. I am interested in > alternative perspectives, those which do not necessarily play well to > the masses and therefore the business/marketing side of things. I'm sure > there are many individuals in the GNOME movement that would agree, > that's why half of us are here in this alternative OS anyway. The marketing group was as close to gospel as you could get at that point. It included both people explicitly working on promoting GNOME, like Bart DeCrem and me, and generally the leaders of the project, such as Miguel, Federico, and Elliot. > 2. I would hardly classify even the most enthusiastic artistic > critisizm as "roaring". Really, why are we even talking about re-design > if there seems to be general approval for the site as it stands? The reactions to the current design were along the lines of "This is a kick-ass website design". But I digress. There are several reasons why we decided to redesign, and thus why we're here. First of all, I wanted a site that was easier to maintain, since my time is somewhat limited. This means that stuff like images for text, although having several advantages, such as compactness, would have to go. Secondly, I want to get rid of WML and Auto*, because it's hard to maintain, and makes it difficult for people to get involved in maintaining the site, again making a lot of maintenance fall on me, instead of on the people who need it done, even though they have CVS access. Additionally, there's the desire to coordinate the look and feel throughout the GNOME sites, which wasn't a consideration originally, and thus the current design isn't made for expanding to, for instance, news.gnome.org. > 3. Aesthetic critique is nothing to get defensive about. Neither Ryan or > myself are discussing your artistic sensibilities or talents. I can't > speak for him, but I'm just expressing some of the appeal that the old > scheme appealed to me. I'm not being defensive. I am, however, pointing out some historical reasons for why the current design is what it is, and they're well worth observing. In particular since one of the stated reasons for that redesign was to, and I quote (don't remember who this was from, might have been Elliot) "Get rid of that horrid brown". >> As mentioned elewhere, you're not going to be staring at the GNOME website >> for 10 hours every day. Also, please read the literature on the impact of >> contrast on legibility and comprehension (Nielsen has a few good passages on >> this). > As you probably know, ultra-high contrast (red on blue for example) is > also extremely illegible. So then we must be talking about a balance > point somewhere in between, a matter of suitability and appropriateness. > To simply say "black on white is correct and nothing else is" fails to > appreciate some of the finer subtleties of design, as I'm sure you would > agree. What we're all trying to do here is to agree on what is legible > and what isn't, not conduct some sort of physiological lightwave rod and > cone interface analysis in 4 out of 5 dentists. Indeed, my own comp uses > a white background with charcoal text, which I think is perfectly > readable. But I'm open for other people's alternative suggestions, too. Red on blue is a simultaneous contrast, and I can't remember proposing that anywhere. Nielsen, for instance, has interesting numbers on the impact of black-or-close text on white-or-close backgrounds on readability, as compared to just about all other combinations. We don't need to do this analysis, since people have already done it for us. > And I'm not saying that good-looking isn't important either. But it's > easy to get enticed by a lot of fancy colors and miss the point. GNOME > is about quality and that quality comes through the character and the > philosophy that created it. I don't think we should compromise our > principles just because it plays well to the 5 second visitor. I don't think we have a "principle" that would be compromised if we used a certain set of colors over another. I want that 5 second visitor. There are a lot of them. We want to reach them, we want to pull them in, we want to show them what GNOME is about. >> Personally, I find these colors to be awfully bland and boring. Others >> might disagree. > Heh. It's not trying to be exciting, just informative. Roadway signs > aren't the most exciting thing I've ever seen either, but they get me to > where I'm going. (We all seem to be disagreeing lately, aren't we? But > you're entitled.) Most color schemes get you where you're going. Of that rather large set, it's a matter of choosing the one that has the most additional advantages, like being attractive, immediately appealing, etc. >> There are many good reasons for *not* encouraging a >> spread/bastardization of >> the design, such as the confusion that would arise, with people >> potentially >> confusing random project sites and the main sites, possibly with >> content >> whose quality or reliability we can't vounch for, etc. This is known >> as brand >> dilution, and is considered a Bad Thing. >> So let's create this design with the GNOME sites in mind, not with >> generic >> project sites, for whose sake we need to be bland and nonintrusive. >> Gods know >> it's a big enough job as it is. > Wait a second. Have we started selling GNOME lately and nobody told me? > Has the GPL been revoked?! I thought that the whole idea behind the > GNOME desktop was Free extensibility among as many applications as > desire. Since when does the brand of GNOME matter? Let's leave branding > up to HelixCode and Eazel, GNOME is more about a philosophy of software > development. Branding/marketing and freedom are not mutually exclusive. Indeed, freedom matters little if few people know that they can have it, and crave it. The GNOME Foundation charter states rather specifically: Public Image and Voice ----------------------- The foundation will be the principal entity with the ability to make official public statements for GNOME, such as press releases. The foundation will also be responsible for maintaining the "GNOME brand," and will have to determine the appropriate uses of the associated trademarks. The foundation will also be a hub for joint-marketing efforts by those organizations (corporate and non) which want to make GNOME-related announcements. Regional groups, created to promote GNOME in specific areas, may wish to make their own announcements about their efforts. Leaving branding and marketing up to companies are not an option. I love Helix Code, it's why I work for it, but I wouldn't want marketing and branding of GNOME to be handed over to Helix Code or any other corporate entity. It's far too important for that. > All I'm saying is that the GNOME web site should have an identifiable > *character* and resulting style which is suggested through many subtle > (and perhaps some more obvious) artistic vehicles. My point is that > these vehicles need to align with the character of the desktop, not be > attention-begging flares for a desktop desparate for market share. > Truely, if GNOME is the best (and Free) than it can't help but succeed. > Again, let's not overstate the point. I know what you're saying. I just think that the desktop and web site are sufficiently different in target audience, goals, medium and usage patterns that it's completely responsible to not maintain a very strong visual consistency between the two. Additionally, there's no such thing as assured success for the best contender, as shown by many real life examples, but that's a different discussion. I just think "GNOME is best anyway, so it doesn't need marketing" (or arguments of that nature) are rather missing the point entirely. >>> As I've said countless times, feel free to create a wonderful site >>> design >>> using these colors. I'm still not willing to let the use or non-use of >>> brown >>> become a deciding factor in whether or not a design is "good enough >>> for the >>> GNOME sites". > Well, at some point we have to evaluate our interpretations of color. I > am fundamentally opposed to a red background, for example. Brown (as you > call it), on the other hand, conveys to me the soft-spoken, earthiness > of a product that doesn't mind standing on it's own substance and > merits. To quote Martha Stewart, "This is a good thing!" It is > introverted, which means the visitor has to *ask* questions about GNOME, > a sure way to get them *more* involved (as Socrates would tell you). > Maybe not quite as many, but definitely a better caliber of folks would > stick around. Of course this is all subjective. But that's why we're all > talking about this, right? Actually, it's not entirely subjective, although it's taken a rather subjective turn. There are in fact very well accepted theories of color that deal with what sort of message and feel certain colors convey (although this isn't global, it's fairly uniform in the western hemisphere, at least. Let's not get into design and color choice for maximum market impact worldwide, it's the realm of million-dollar consulting companies.) And yes, an approach like that would certainly attract a certain group of users. But we're really talking mass-market appeal here, especially for the main www.gnome.org site. We're charged with an extremely important responsibility, namely to be the GNOME project's face to the world, and to be the main gate through which the project recruits both new users, developers and supporters. There is significant strength in numbers, and I don't want to lose a single one of those potential users because our chosen design appeals to "a better caliber of folks". There seems to be some conception that we're mainly making a set of sites for developers. We're not. Developers are important, they get their part of the site, but GNOME is just about ready to go onto the mass market of desktops, and to take on Windows directly. That's what this is about, offering a high-quality, free alternative to all those average users out there. > Ok, that's all I have to say. GNOME is a pretty cool thing to me, and > has some refreshing qualities that aren't so popular these days. I'm > just fighting for a chance to maintain that character in the web site > because I care about it. I think there are many ways to convey GNOME's character through the graphical design, feel and content of the website. Assuming that we have to use the same colors on the web site as are prevalent in the icons (which make up a very small area of the desktop) to do so is in my opinion an extremely simplistic view. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From cox@idecnet.com Sun Dec 17 08:44:19 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp.wanadoo.es (unknown [62.36.220.21]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7E912DC02 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 08:44:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from sapiens.idecnet.com (usuario1-37-143-140.dialup.uni2.es [62.37.143.140]) by smtp.wanadoo.es (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id eBHDiF413309; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:44:16 +0100 (MET) Received: from idecnet.com (cox@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sapiens.idecnet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA02638; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:44:13 +0100 Message-ID: <3A3CC32C.1FF011DA@idecnet.com> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:44:12 +0100 From: "Tomas V.V.Cox" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.13 i586) X-Accept-Language: es-ES, Spanish/Spain, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ryan Muldoon Cc: Joakim Ziegler , gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: 2. Audience (was Re: Design document [Draft 1]) References: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Ryan Muldoon wrote: > > My thoughts (for now) are about sections 2 and 3: > > > > > 2. Audience and goals > > > > The GNOME websites span a rather large range of audiences (and corresponding > > goals), including users, developers, members of the press, representatives of > > companies considering supporting GNOME, and so on. The goals can be broken > > down as follows: > > > > I think one of the main goals should be the issue of integrating new > members of the GNOME community. What I mean by this is encouraging > people to get involved in improving GNOME. The best way to accelerate > the rate of improvement of GNOME is to get more people involved. > Perhaps we can do an user oriented navigation structure. | | Desktop users | Developers | Press | Bussiness | |----------------------------------------------------------------- | (Contents Bar)| | What is Gnome | | other | | other | | other | | other | If I am a delevoper, the "Contents Bar" should have all the links related to developers with Gnome (How to get involved, cvs instructions, devel doc, etc). In each "web site user" section could appear a link to get involved (for ex: Desktop users => do translations, mantain web site; Developers => apps; Press => talk about Gnome, join the press list; Biz => put money :) Cheers, Tomas V.V.Cox From digitect@mindspring.com Sun Dec 17 10:37:18 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F41A2BB19 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:37:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf2u6.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.139.198]) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA14327 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:37:17 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <000f01c0683f$3c45a740$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001216223521.G21146@helixcode.com> <013901c067e6$48ab51a0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217003351.J21146@helixcode.com> Subject: Re: GNOME colors Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:37:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Maybe we're not too far apart... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joakim Ziegler" Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2000 1:33 AM Subject: Re: GNOME colors > In particular since one of the stated reasons for that redesign was to, and I > quote (don't remember who this was from, might have been Elliot) "Get rid of > that horrid brown". Ok, so some hate brown, some like it for traditional reasons. I can agree that it doesn't sparkle. If it ends up going, so be it. I just thought since it is somewhat part of the brand identity for historical reasons, it might be good to at least maintain it in an accent color. > Actually, [color is] not entirely subjective, although it's taken a rather > subjective turn. There are in fact very well accepted theories of color that > deal with what sort of message and feel certain colors convey (although this > isn't global, it's fairly uniform in the western hemisphere, at least. Let's > not get into design and color choice for maximum market impact worldwide, > it's the realm of million-dollar consulting companies.) Well, as an American I can easily agree with this strategy. But it' very appealing to me that GNOME is so international. I always thought the earth tones used in the past came from some sort of Mexican/South American tradition. Not trying to stir the pot again, but I for one, was interpreting the color from an alternative perspective and it was appealing that way. I, too, have studied tons of color theory (Joseph Albers, Mondrian and friends) but in the end it's going to come down to somebody's subjective decision. > I think there are many ways to convey GNOME's character through the graphical > design, feel and content of the website. Assuming that we have to use the > same colors on the web site as are prevalent in the icons (which make up a > very small area of the desktop) to do so is in my opinion an extremely > simplistic view. Maybe you misunderstand my verbosities. I'm not if favor of using a color scheme based *on* the icons. I think the site should be neutral. That's Neutral, as in hue-less, or minimally. Then the art from the desktop can stand out. Of course I understand your hesitancy to depend on the desktop art given it's current dormant state of development. But I'm interested in seeing that prosper, too, in fact, more so than the web site. So maybe I'm on the wrong list, but I think both can and should work together to benefit from the synergy. It's a clever way to take advantage of the spartan volunteer work force. > I want that 5 second visitor. There are a lot of them. We want to reach them, > we want to pull them in, we want to show them what GNOME is about. You and me both. We just have to figure out how to do that. > Leaving branding and marketing up to companies are not an option. I love > Helix Code, it's why I work for it, but I wouldn't want marketing and > branding of GNOME to be handed over to Helix Code or any other corporate > entity. It's far too important for that. I agree. GNOME needs to stand on its own. And I do want it to have it's own identity, distinct from anybody else out there. But I see it as more of a family, not a singular product brand. But maybe I'm not thinking broadly about it enough. > And yes, an approach like that would certainly attract a certain group of > users. But we're really talking mass-market appeal here, especially for the > main www.gnome.org site. We're charged with an extremely important > responsibility, namely to be the GNOME project's face to the world, and to be > the main gate through which the project recruits both new users, developers > and supporters. There is significant strength in numbers, and I don't want to > lose a single one of those potential users because our chosen design appeals > to "a better caliber of folks". I agree. > There seems to be some conception that we're mainly making a set of sites for > developers. We're not. Developers are important, they get their part of the > site, but GNOME is just about ready to go onto the mass market of desktops, > and to take on Windows directly. That's what this is about, offering a > high-quality, free alternative to all those average users out there. Yes, I think the site is currently far too skewed towards the developers. Or rather, I should say that I just don't think there's enough accomodation to the new user. That's why I'm in favor of splitting content right down the middle and have proposed a structure around this scheme. Users need the front end and it needs to be far better than what we currently have. From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sun Dec 17 13:54:41 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC7B62BE08 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:54:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147ixh-0006BO-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 19:55:10 +0100 Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:52:36 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001217135236.A28998@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001216223521.G21146@helixcode.com> <013901c067e6$48ab51a0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217003351.J21146@helixcode.com> <000f01c0683f$3c45a740$0201a8c0@pc001> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <000f01c0683f$3c45a740$0201a8c0@pc001>; from digitect@mindspring.com on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 10:37:16AM -0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 10:37:16AM -0500, digitect wrote: >> In particular since one of the stated reasons for that redesign was to, and >> I quote (don't remember who this was from, might have been Elliot) "Get rid of >> that horrid brown". > Ok, so some hate brown, some like it for traditional reasons. I can agree that > it doesn't sparkle. If it ends up going, so be it. I just thought since it is > somewhat part of the brand identity for historical reasons, it might be good > to at least maintain it in an accent color. I think there are ways to retain the image in the colors without preserving that specific brown. I'll write a message about this with a color comp of my own after I finish this message. >> Actually, [color is] not entirely subjective, although it's taken a rather >> subjective turn. There are in fact very well accepted theories of color that >> deal with what sort of message and feel certain colors convey (although this >> isn't global, it's fairly uniform in the western hemisphere, at least. Let's >> not get into design and color choice for maximum market impact worldwide, >> it's the realm of million-dollar consulting companies.) > Well, as an American I can easily agree with this strategy. But it' very > appealing to me that GNOME is so international. I always thought the earth > tones used in the past came from some sort of Mexican/South American > tradition. Not that I'm aware of, at least not consciously. Anyway, from my understanding, it seems that it's Asia that's the joker in the color symbolism deck, most of the western hemisphere has a rather similar culture when it comes to this. > Not trying to stir the pot again, but I for one, was interpreting > the color from an alternative perspective and it was appealing that way. I, > too, have studied tons of color theory (Joseph Albers, Mondrian and friends) > but in the end it's going to come down to somebody's subjective decision. Definitely. I hope it ends up being a clear majority decision, though. I also have the feeling that disagreement might be larger during a discussion than when people actually sit down and look at different suggestions. >> I think there are many ways to convey GNOME's character through the >> graphical >> design, feel and content of the website. Assuming that we have to use the >> same colors on the web site as are prevalent in the icons (which make up a >> very small area of the desktop) to do so is in my opinion an extremely >> simplistic view. > Maybe you misunderstand my verbosities. I'm not if favor of using a color > scheme based *on* the icons. I think the site should be neutral. That's > Neutral, as in hue-less, or minimally. Then the art from the desktop can stand > out. Of course I understand your hesitancy to depend on the desktop art given > it's current dormant state of development. But I'm interested in seeing that > prosper, too, in fact, more so than the web site. So maybe I'm on the wrong > list, but I think both can and should work together to benefit from the > synergy. It's a clever way to take advantage of the spartan volunteer work > force. I hope so too. It seems to me that when a new, fresh piece of design that doesn't rely overly on the existing corpus gets injected into the mix, the totality benefits. It's like including outside DNA into an overly homogenic gene pool, which has become somewhat stagnant; it promotes change and development, and tends towards a new equilibrium. I know some people have considered some of the icon and other graphics work Tuomas has done at Helix Code to be inspiration in this manner (it has more of a Helix look than the traditional GNOME look), and I hope the a web site that does new things, while still respecting its origins, can have the same sort of effect. >> Leaving branding and marketing up to companies are not an option. I love >> Helix Code, it's why I work for it, but I wouldn't want marketing and >> branding of GNOME to be handed over to Helix Code or any other corporate >> entity. It's far too important for that. > I agree. GNOME needs to stand on its own. And I do want it to have it's own > identity, distinct from anybody else out there. But I see it as more of a > family, not a singular product brand. But maybe I'm not thinking broadly about > it enough. Well, you're right in some respects. This is one of the reasons I'm a little afraid of relying too much on the desktop imagery. While the desktop environment is an important part of GNOME, it's also the part that gets the most attention (because it's easiest to get a concept of). But GNOME is a lot more than the desktop (in fact, the desktop is kind of a coincidence). It's difficult to brand something this large and diverse. I'm hoping we can succeed by being fairly abstract in our approach. Possibly, we'll just have to say "this is what we want GNOME to be associated with", instead of "what is it people associate GNOME with?", because people's perceptions at the moment are very varied. I'm doing a color comp right now, which is a little bolder than the things that have been proposed so far, yet, I think, might be a pleasant surprise. More of that in a little while. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sun Dec 17 14:53:09 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A34F92BAC0 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:53:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147jsI-0001Ln-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 20:53:38 +0100 Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:51:05 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001217145105.B28998@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com>; from joakim@helixcode.com on Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 04:36:43PM -0600 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work So I thought I'd say a little about what the color associations I get from GNOME are. To me, the keyword is probably "warm". GNOME is very close, personal, it ties stuff together. I'm associating rather freely here, this is more or less a brain dump of a non-verbal part of my brain, so bear with me. Lush, rich, warm colors, with perhaps a little dust, like when sun filters through dusty air inside a library building on a warm summer day. The colors of fine wood, old leather, finely printed books, warm sand, cream, spices, and so on. This probably sounds weird, but I have a very emotional approach to choosing colors and doing design. Others might not. Anyway, with these associations in mind, I sat down and made a little color comp. It has six base colors, with four variations of each. I didn't add black to this set of comps, since it's kind of a given. I think this palette isn't too far, conseptually, from the colors people associate with GNOME traditionally, in that they're all slightly "dusty" and subdued, but they're also a little bit bolder and stronger than the typical grayish browns. I didn't make any mockup design of a webpage, since I think that tends to distract a little from the colors themselves, at this stage. I think it's great that we're actually *thinking* about colors this time, since color choice the last time (and, I suspect, also the first time) was somewhat of a haphazard process. Anyway, see what you think: http://www.avmaria.com/gnome-color-proposal-1.png -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From digitect@mindspring.com Sun Dec 17 14:53:51 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6042B2BAC0 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:53:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf2rd.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.139.109]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA24563 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:53:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <002101c06863$13772400$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001216223521.G21146@helixcode.com> <013901c067e6$48ab51a0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217003351.J21146@helixcode.com> <000f01c0683f$3c45a740$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217135236.A28998@helixcode.com> Subject: Re: GNOME colors Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:53:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > From: "Joakim Ziegler" > Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2000 2:52 PM > > It's difficult to brand something this large and diverse. I'm hoping we can > succeed by being fairly abstract in our approach. Possibly, we'll just have > to say "this is what we want GNOME to be associated with", instead of "what > is it people associate GNOME with?", because people's perceptions at the > moment are very varied. Yeah, I was starting to think that too, back when we were talking about brand v. family of products. Would we go so far as to consider the web site one of the products? Then it can sort of take on a character of it's own, appropriate for the audiences your draft discusses. From digitect@mindspring.com Sun Dec 17 19:38:43 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (granger.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.148]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 143862BAE9 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 19:38:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf318.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.140.40]) by granger.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA17267 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 19:38:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <003901c0688a$defbe6c0$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: Subject: Re: GNOME colors Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 19:38:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > From: "Joakim Ziegler" > Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2000 3:51 PM > To me, the keyword is probably "warm". . . . Lush, rich, > warm colors, with perhaps a little dust, like when sun filters through dusty > air inside a library building on a warm summer day. The colors of fine wood, > old leather, finely printed books, warm sand, cream, spices, and so on. I'm warm, too, but outside. Meadows in late spring/early summer, new green shoots, dry earth, dandelions. > I think this palette isn't too far, conceptually, from the > colors people associate with GNOME traditionally, in that they're all > slightly "dusty" and subdued, but they're also a little bit bolder and > stronger than the typical grayish browns. True. > I think it's great that we're actually *thinking* about colors this time, > since color choice the last time (and, I suspect, also the first time) was > somewhat of a haphazard process. This is definitely a good process. I like how your moderating us to components, not entire mockups. I wasn't expecting us to be this disciplined. I think this is letting us get to a deeper understanding of what GNOME is, was, and should be. Of course, once the iterative part is finished . . . > > Anyway, see what you think: > > http://www.avmaria.com/gnome-color-proposal-1.png (All right, whoever's been watching from the curb thus far, say you didn't expect me to make a counter proposal. ;) I agree with Joakim steering clear of the blues. I think I could also settle for bolder if I had to, but I'm still not quite convinced. What if we backed off on the saturation a bit and leaned more green/yellow than red? Besides being a pretty popular palette these days, I think it also says GNOME: http://www.mindspring.com/~digitect/gnome/colors-stevehall-01.png Anyone else care to chime in with opinions of colors? Joakim and I have been preaching at each other for quite a few exchanges but I hope we haven't scared everybody else off. I'll try to keep it down a little until next weekend. Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sun Dec 17 20:08:13 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6929F2BAE9 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 20:08:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147onE-0007LW-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 02:08:44 +0100 Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 20:06:10 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001217200610.A29998@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <003901c0688a$defbe6c0$0201a8c0@pc001> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <003901c0688a$defbe6c0$0201a8c0@pc001>; from digitect@mindspring.com on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 07:38:41PM -0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 07:38:41PM -0500, digitect wrote: >> From: "Joakim Ziegler" >> Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2000 3:51 PM >> I think it's great that we're actually *thinking* about colors this time, >> since color choice the last time (and, I suspect, also the first time) was >> somewhat of a haphazard process. > This is definitely a good process. I like how your moderating us to components, > not entire mockups. I wasn't expecting us to be this disciplined. I think this > is letting us get to a deeper understanding of what GNOME is, was, and should > be. Of course, once the iterative part is finished . . . I'm mainly trying to eliminate noise. A good color scheme could easily be lost if it was presented in a too quickly done mockup of a web site, or the other way around. I'm happy people like this way of working, as it makes it easy to concentrate on one thing at a time. >> Anyway, see what you think: >> http://www.avmaria.com/gnome-color-proposal-1.png > (All right, whoever's been watching from the curb thus far, say you didn't > expect me to make a counter proposal. ;) I agree with Joakim steering clear of > the blues. I think I could also settle for bolder if I had to, but I'm still not > quite convinced. What if we backed off on the saturation a bit and leaned more > green/yellow than red? Besides being a pretty popular palette these days, I > think it also says GNOME: > http://www.mindspring.com/~digitect/gnome/colors-stevehall-01.png Not bad, although I feel that "the bottom fell out", for lack of a better term, in that all of the colors seem to have a lot of white in them. I like the brown, though. Your yellow has a lot of green in it, which makes it seem a little cold for my taste. What do you know. You're a spring, I'm an autumn. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From webmaven@lvcm.com Mon Dec 18 01:16:38 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams1.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.75]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 046D82DC09 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 01:16:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.192.168]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Sun, 17 Dec 2000 22:20:30 -0800 Message-ID: <3A3DCA08.83084BDF@lvcm.com> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 00:25:44 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001216223521.G21146@helixcode.com> <013901c067e6$48ab51a0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217003351.J21146@helixcode.com> <000f01c0683f$3c45a740$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217135236.A28998@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > It's difficult to brand something this large and diverse. I'm hoping we can > succeed by being fairly abstract in our approach. Possibly, we'll just have > to say "this is what we want GNOME to be associated with", instead of "what > is it people associate GNOME with?", because people's perceptions at the > moment are very varied. Joakim, Has anyone on the 'GNOME marketing commitee' ever created a positioning statement for GNOME? A positioning statement, for those of you on the list who may not have heard the term before, is simply a description of how you would like to be perceived by your prospects. It shouldn't be confused with your position, which is a description of how you actually ARE perceived. A positioning statement can be created quite simply by answering seven questions: Who: Who are you? What: What business are you in? For whom: What people do you serve? What need: What are the special needs of the people you serve? Against whom: With whom are you competing? What's different: What makes you different form those competitors? So: What's the benefit? What unique benefit does a customer derive from you? To illustrate, take Bloomingdale's as an example: (Who) "Bloomingdale's (What) are fashion-focused department stores (For whom) for trend-conscious, upper-middle class shoppers (What need) looking for high-end products. Unlike (Against whom) other department stores, Bloomingdale's (What's different) provides unique merchandise in a theatrical setting (So) that makes shopping entertaining." Of the seven questions, the trickiest is number five 'What's different?'. This is where people try to cram in everything but the kitchen sink. When trying to define your position in the marketplace (especially the marketplace of ideas), you must choose the one thing that makes you different from your competitors, and not try to say you are all things to all people. So, has anyone ever done this for GNOME? Michael Bernstein. From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Mon Dec 18 01:38:34 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAF002DC09 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 01:38:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147twy-0002Y8-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 07:39:08 +0100 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 01:36:33 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001218013633.B29998@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <20001217145105.B28998@helixcode.com> <200012172013.OAA55914@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012172013.OAA55914@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 12:14:14AM +0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 12:14:14AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: >> To me, the keyword is probably "warm". GNOME is very close, personal, it ties >> stuff together. I'm associating rather freely here, this is more or less a >> brain dump of a non-verbal part of my brain, so bear with me. Lush, rich, >> warm colors, with perhaps a little dust, like when sun filters through dusty >> air inside a library building on a warm summer day. The colors of fine wood, >> old leather, finely printed books, warm sand, cream, spices, and so on. > I definitely agree here. > My comments on the color comp are as follows: > 1. overall, very nice > 2. the orange seems out of place - too bright > 3. I really like the cream colors, for accent > 4. the salmon color (up and to the left of orange) seems a little off > too It's mainly intended as a draft palette, so at least small adjustments should be expected. The orange might indeed be a little bright, but I'd like to have an orange in there, it's an incredibly versatile color, and used correctly, it can be very nice (it's probably a bit much in a square block like it is on the palette). > 5. the top row, if used, should only be used sparingly Yes, the top row was mainly intended for those cases where you'd need a brighter color, like, say, if you're doing a beveled frame on one of the colors, or for other such highlight purposes. > I like the darker colors in the last row...perhaps we can experiment > with using these for header text, or bolder accent lines. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Mon Dec 18 01:41:32 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D1512DC46 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 01:41:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147tzp-0002DV-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 07:42:06 +0100 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 01:39:30 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001218013930.C29998@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001216223521.G21146@helixcode.com> <013901c067e6$48ab51a0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217003351.J21146@helixcode.com> <000f01c0683f$3c45a740$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217135236.A28998@helixcode.com> <3A3DCA08.83084BDF@lvcm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A3DCA08.83084BDF@lvcm.com>; from webmaven@lvcm.com on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 12:25:44AM -0800 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 12:25:44AM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: > Joakim Ziegler wrote: >> It's difficult to brand something this large and diverse. I'm hoping we can >> succeed by being fairly abstract in our approach. Possibly, we'll just have >> to say "this is what we want GNOME to be associated with", instead of "what >> is it people associate GNOME with?", because people's perceptions at the >> moment are very varied. > Has anyone on the 'GNOME marketing commitee' ever created a > positioning statement for GNOME? Not as far as I know. At least not as such. I think the information exists, and the answers to the questions are likely very similar wihtin at least the core community. Actually, a lot of them are answered in places such as the foundation charter. However, it's a good idea to have one. I don't feel that we have the mandate to create one, though, but it might be worthwhile to raise the issue with the board. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From Peteris_Krisjanis@elkogroup.com Mon Dec 18 01:45:43 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lotus3.elkogroup.com (lotus3.elkogroup.com [194.9.175.53]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92DC32DC46 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 01:45:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: IRC? To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.3 (Intl) 21 March 2000 Message-ID: From: Peteris_Krisjanis@elkogroup.com Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 08:46:21 +0200 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on lotus3/ELKOGROUP/LV(Release 5.0.5 |September 22, 2000) at 12/18/2000 08:46:25 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Yeah, I think it would be useful, because for synchronization of opinions we generating gigantic amount of mails (sometimes) ;))) Only thing we must choose is time and place... Peteris Krisjanis. From jdub@aphid.net Mon Dec 18 03:57:18 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail005.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail005.syd.optusnet.com.au [203.2.75.229]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC29E2CB0B for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 03:57:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (sdcax53-026.dialup.optusnet.com.au [198.142.207.26]) by mail005.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBI8ttK12626 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 19:55:55 +1100 Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 026783E95; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 19:57:16 +1100 (EST) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 19:57:16 +1100 From: Jeff Waugh To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: IRC? Message-ID: <20001218195716.P6829@aphid.net> Mail-Followup-To: Jeff Waugh , gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from Peteris_Krisjanis@elkogroup.com on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 08:46:21AM +0200 X-Message: Leenooks, Lienucks, Leenoos, Lienus, Let's call the whole thing off. X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.0-test11 i686 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > Yeah, I think it would be useful, because for synchronization of opinions > we generating gigantic amount of mails (sometimes) ;))) > > Only thing we must choose is time and place... As always, on irc.gnome.org in #webgeeks. There's usually a couple of us there bitching about . :) - Jeff -- jdub@aphid.net --------------------------------- http://linux.conf.au/ -- ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI. From webmaven@lvcm.com Mon Dec 18 10:15:27 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams3.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.77]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A35E52D2AD for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 10:15:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.192.168]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Mon, 18 Dec 2000 07:16:21 -0800 Message-ID: <3A3E485C.3EB53192@lvcm.com> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 09:24:44 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001216223521.G21146@helixcode.com> <013901c067e6$48ab51a0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217003351.J21146@helixcode.com> <000f01c0683f$3c45a740$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217135236.A28998@helixcode.com> <3A3DCA08.83084BDF@lvcm.com> <20001218013930.C29998@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 12:25:44AM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: > > Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > >> It's difficult to brand something this large and diverse. I'm hoping we can > >> succeed by being fairly abstract in our approach. Possibly, we'll just have > >> to say "this is what we want GNOME to be associated with", instead of "what > >> is it people associate GNOME with?", because people's perceptions at the > >> moment are very varied. > > > Has anyone on the 'GNOME marketing commitee' ever created a > > positioning statement for GNOME? > > Not as far as I know. At least not as such. I think the information exists, > and the answers to the questions are likely very similar wihtin at least the > core community. Actually, a lot of them are answered in places such as the > foundation charter. > > However, it's a good idea to have one. I don't feel that we have the mandate > to create one, though, but it might be worthwhile to raise the issue with the > board. I've frequently found that going through the excersize of creating one then makes look-and-feel decisions a lot simpler. All you have to ask is which alternative expresses the positioning that you want better. That answer will be different for different mediums, but the message will still be consistent, even if it's expression isn't. Michael Bernstein. From ulf@obsession.se Mon Dec 18 18:51:12 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from musse.tninet.se (musse.tninet.se [195.100.94.12]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E0A6F2BB95 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 18:51:11 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 11831 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2000 00:51:10 +0100 Received: from delenn.tninet.se (HELO algonet.se) (195.100.94.104) by musse.tninet.se with SMTP; 19 Dec 2000 00:51:10 +0100 Received: from obsession.se (sdu88-247.ppp.algonet.se [195.163.247.88]) by delenn.tninet.se (BLUETAIL Mail Robustifier 2.2.1) with ESMTP id 477170.183469.977delenn-s1 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:51:09 +0100 Message-ID: <3A3FF490.6B0D01C6@obsession.se> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:51:44 +0100 From: Ulf Pettersson Reply-To: ulf@obsession.se Organization: Obsession Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: On colour Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work I have followed your discussion around colour for sometime now. Your proposals include too many too diverse colours. This last picture: http://www.mindspring.com/~digitect/gnome/colors-stevehall-01.png includes about 9 different hues. Some of them are more or less complimentary while others are quite close. All in all, they cannot (and do not) match. All expression is based on relationsships between differences and similarities and if you include colours in a almost random way it is hard to get meaning across (unless visual uncertainty/randomness itself is the point). Basically, choose colours in a way that give them a clear relationship; either they may be close in hue(i generally don't like that) or they may be complimentary (opposite in hue) (i tend to choose color more in that way, most other designers seem to as well). The point is that you have to have a some sort of 'drama' in your colour selection or it will not be effective. For example, a drama is cleary created between reds and greens, but if you also add blues and yellows the effect is lost. I'd advise you restrict yourselves to two (possibly three) main colors for major graphic elements, excluding black and white. If you want more colours, create subtle variantions from one or two of the ones you have chosen. If we look at the picture above: If you remove the last three columns from the picture (yellow, blue, green), I would say you have a good set of colours to work with (other combinations are possible). I like the colour-scheme of Gnome. At least compared to the design of most free software. Too me the Gnome colour scheme seems a very strong element of the Gnome brand and it would be a shame to loose it (without a clearly superior alternative). To me it is also obvious that the site should reflect the colours of the desktop. Every major non-free, consumer OS uses their desktops visual appearance in their branding (MacOS, BeOS and Windows increasingly), and they are right about it. I dont think the Gnome icons or the Gnome colour-scheme are that great. They are a little too murky, too similar in colour and the icons are sometimes somewhat poorly rendered. But for free software they are really not bad. I really detest the look of KDE. It looks unprofessional, childish and hackerish in a bad (non-elegant) sense. Between KDE and Gnome, Gnome _looks_ like a much more though-over and professional environment. Largely because of its icons, other graphic details and the subtle and consistent colour-scale. I'd hate to flame anyone but the current design of the Gnome site (front page) does not really suit my taste (or professional opinion). Mostly because it is hard to read, too diffucult to understand where to click and has too much graphics but also because the colours (bright pink, blue and green) make me think of My Little Pony or icecream and are not consistent with the Gnome colours. I think the previous site was better (as I remember it) and was surprised by the change, which was a step in the opposite direction of most website design (where flexibility, utility, useability, download speed and design elements well adjusted for the web are gaining ground). Ulf Pettersson Designer From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Mon Dec 18 20:11:24 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7924A2BDE9 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 20:11:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148BK1-00072c-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 02:12:06 +0100 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 20:07:33 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: On colour Message-ID: <20001218200733.D868@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <3A3FF490.6B0D01C6@obsession.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A3FF490.6B0D01C6@obsession.se>; from ulf@obsession.se on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 12:51:44AM +0100 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 12:51:44AM +0100, Ulf Pettersson wrote: > Your proposals include too many too diverse colours. > This last picture: > http://www.mindspring.com/~digitect/gnome/colors-stevehall-01.png > includes about 9 different hues. Some of them are more or less complimentary > while others are quite close. All in all, they cannot (and do not) match. All > expression is based on relationsships between differences and similarities and > if you include colours in a almost random way it is hard to get meaning across > (unless visual uncertainty/randomness itself is the point). > Basically, choose colours in a way that give them a clear relationship; either > they may be close in hue(i generally don't like that) or they may be > complimentary (opposite in hue) (i tend to choose color more in that way, most > other designers seem to as well). The point is that you have to have a some sort > of 'drama' in your colour selection or it will not be effective. For example, a > drama is cleary created between reds and greens, but if you also add blues and > yellows the effect is lost. > I'd advise you restrict yourselves to two (possibly three) main colors for major > graphic elements, excluding black and white. If you want more colours, create > subtle variantions from one or two of the ones you have chosen. If we look at > the picture above: If you remove the last three columns from the picture > (yellow, blue, green), I would say you have a good set of colours to work with > (other combinations are possible). There's definitely the possibility of restricting ourselves to fewer colors, specifically the number of colors used on a single page. I think it would be good to have a number of colors in an "official palette" to choose from, though, especially since the site design might call for such things as color-coding sections. I can't speak for Steve Hall's proposal, but mine included 5 different hues, with brightness/saturation variations for each. This is definitely not too many, given the circumstances above. > I like the colour-scheme of Gnome. At least compared to the design of most free > software. Too me the Gnome colour scheme seems a very strong element of the > Gnome brand and it would be a shame to loose it (without a clearly superior > alternative). To me it is also obvious that the site should reflect the colours > of the desktop. Every major non-free, consumer OS uses their desktops visual > appearance in their branding (MacOS, BeOS and Windows increasingly), and they > are right about it. I think this is misguided for several reasons (as I believe I've pointed out earlier in this thread). First of all, GNOME is a lot more than just a desktop, and the desktop is what gets the most attention as it is, so it might be good to try to balance this a bit more. Secondly, a desktop and a web site are so different media that it would be a bad idea to try to unify them too much (Apple were only able to unify their web site and desktop after they turned the desktop into a visual circus of useless chrome, which has received more or less unanimous bad reviews from usability experts, and I don't see how Microsoft's site picks up too much of Windows' look at all). > I dont think the Gnome icons or the Gnome colour-scheme are that great. They are > a little too murky, too similar in colour and the icons are sometimes somewhat > poorly rendered. But for free software they are really not bad. I really detest > the look of KDE. It looks unprofessional, childish and hackerish in a bad > (non-elegant) sense. Between KDE and Gnome, Gnome _looks_ like a much more > though-over and professional environment. Largely because of its icons, other > graphic details and the subtle and consistent colour-scale. I agree, the GNOME icon colors work very well for icons (although I think Tuomas, who is largely responsible for that color scheme in icons, is moving somewhat brighter colors in his newer work, for instance the icons in Evolution). > I'd hate to flame anyone but the current design of the Gnome site (front page) > does not really suit my taste (or professional opinion). Mostly because it is > hard to read, too diffucult to understand where to click and has too much > graphics but also because the colours (bright pink, blue and green) make me > think of My Little Pony or icecream and are not consistent with the Gnome > colours. I think the previous site was better (as I remember it) and was > surprised by the change, which was a step in the opposite direction of most > website design (where flexibility, utility, useability, download speed and > design elements well adjusted for the web are gaining ground). Well, some of this is personal opinion, I won't take issue with that, since there's little point. Download speed increased with the new design (it's about 2/3 of the old page size). I'm not sure how exactly you feel usability and "design elements well adjusted for the web" were hurt by the new design, although I'll admit that some flexibility from the development perspective was lost by using graphics for text, etc. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From digitect@mindspring.com Mon Dec 18 20:22:17 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 608742BDE9 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 20:22:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from smui05.slb.mindspring.net (smui05.slb.mindspring.net [199.174.114.91]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA21347 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 20:22:17 -0500 (EST) From: digitect@mindspring.com Received: by smui05.slb.mindspring.net id UAA0000008124; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 20:22:16 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 20:22:16 -0500 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: On colour Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: 208.150.104.109 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > ulf@obsession.se wrote: > > Your proposals include too many too diverse colours. Oops, I guess I didn't mean to suggest that we use ALL these colors on one page. I really intended to create a *family* of colors to be used in more selective compositions (as you suggest) across www.gnome.org, developer.gnome.org, gtk.gnome.org, help.gnome.org, foundation.gnome.org, etc. The palette is a total range (figure, field and accent) of all the sub-sites in the gnome.org domain, which together define GNOME. I would heartily agree that no artist could/should work out a composition with even half of them! But thanks for bringing it up, because I'm wondering if you think that's a valid approach. I've been thinking that each major section should be a variation of one theme. Perhaps they all use a monochromatic color scheme, each with a different color from the family. Or maybe they all have one brown, but use different accents. Take Microsoft. Their "look" is those primary colors (along with other non-color devices). But each product, sub-site, or application uses a different color as the primary and one or more of the others for accent. In this way each gets it's own look, but yet stays within the recognizable family. With just the four total, they get over a hundred valid compositions. But do you think GNOME should have our different sub-sites look different, or all the same? I'll also say that there are more than just two theories about what constitutes "good" color composition, although the two you mention are the most common. Here is an interior design site that does a pretty good job of outlining some of the more commonly accepted theories. Read "Color Schemes" about half way down: http://www.kitchen-emporium.com/colour.html I'm particularly fond of neutral, but that's because I'm an architect. (Imagine concrete, white plaster, stainless steel, bleached maple flooring, and black granite counter tops--mmm, delicious.) For the GNOME web site I also think it does a better job of showing off the muted colors in our artwork. My current proposal is that the GNOME site be a white background, with light tan and dark brown page elements (from tradition), dark gray text accented by the periwinkle blue. Most other sections reuse the white background and dark gray text, along with the tan and brown, but are differently accented in the greens, ochres, or rusts from my proposed family of colors. And sometimes (like developer.gnome.org) we use more black to make it more suspenseful, or flip accent and primaries. The user continues to see the same color scheme, the "brand" of GNOME, but recognizes a new subsection intuitively because of the compositional adjustments, all of which are choreographed around the desired mood in each site. ("Help" is friendly, "Foundation" is businesslike, "Developer" is ominous, etc.) Wow, it's tough to discuss this stuff in writing! Thanks for bearing with me. Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From amundson@eventloop.com Mon Dec 18 23:41:20 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from skull.eventloop.com (mail.eventloop.com [209.98.211.225]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07BEC2BB7E for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:41:20 -0500 (EST) Received: (from amundson@localhost) by skull.eventloop.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id WAA02212; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 22:41:07 -0600 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 22:41:07 -0600 From: Shawn T Amundson To: "Tomas V.V.Cox" Cc: Ryan Muldoon , Joakim Ziegler , gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: 2. Audience (was Re: Design document [Draft 1]) Message-ID: <20001218224106.A2120@eventloop.com> Reply-To: Shawn T Amundson Mail-Followup-To: "Tomas V.V.Cox" , Ryan Muldoon , Joakim Ziegler , gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <3A3CC32C.1FF011DA@idecnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A3CC32C.1FF011DA@idecnet.com>; from cox@idecnet.com on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 02:44:12PM +0100 X-Widget-Set-Url: http://www.gtk.org/ Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 02:44:12PM +0100, Tomas V.V.Cox wrote: > > > > I think one of the main goals should be the issue of integrating new > > members of the GNOME community. What I mean by this is encouraging > > people to get involved in improving GNOME. The best way to accelerate > > the rate of improvement of GNOME is to get more people involved. > > > > Perhaps we can do an user oriented navigation structure. > > | | Desktop users | Developers | Press | Bussiness | > |----------------------------------------------------------------- > | (Contents Bar)| > | What is Gnome | > | other | > | other | > | other | > | other | > > Again, I'd like to stress my belief that the website should feel like it is for desktop users and developers, not for press and big business. I agree that it is important information and a very important group of people, but GNOME's *image* is more important. I suggest Press things be categorized under "Contact Us". Perhaps on that page, have a link to the "Press Kit" pages. This will not be too hard to find for the press. The other portion, a overview of what GNOME is, should be on the homepage. I suggest that someone could start writing some nice text for GNOME's front page which is interesting and pulls you into various areas of the project. I am curious what specific things are targetted at Businesses and not just large groups of users (like Universities). I suggest the following top level navigation: | | The Desktop | Download | Development | News | Contact Us | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- | (Contents Bar)| | ..... | | ..... | | ..... | | ..... | | ..... | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Webmaster | Legal Here is what would go in each section: The Desktop - All information for the User and non-coding Contributor (www.gnome.org) Download - Information on downloading GNOME and GNOME Applications (www.gnome.org/download/) Development - For the developer (developer.gnome.org) News - News about GNOME (news.gnome.org) Contact Us - All contact info, press kit, etc. (www.gnome.org/contact_us/) Everything else would be in the sidebar under one of these categories. -Shawn -- Shawn T. Amundson amundson@eventloop.com Research and Development http://www.eventloop.com/ EventLoop, Inc. http://www.snorfle.net/ "The assumption that the universe looks the same in every direction is clearly not true in reality." - Stephen Hawking From amundson@eventloop.com Mon Dec 18 23:52:33 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from skull.eventloop.com (mail.eventloop.com [209.98.211.225]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8419A2BB7E for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:52:32 -0500 (EST) Received: (from amundson@localhost) by skull.eventloop.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id WAA02246 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 22:52:32 -0600 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 22:52:32 -0600 From: Shawn T Amundson To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] Message-ID: <20001218225231.B2120@eventloop.com> Reply-To: Shawn T Amundson Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com>; from joakim@helixcode.com on Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:56:57AM -0600 X-Widget-Set-Url: http://www.gtk.org/ Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:56:57AM -0600, Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > TABLE OF CONTENTS > > 1. Introduction > > 2. Audience and goals > > 3. Navigation structure/usability > > 4. Graphical design > > 5. Localization > > 6. Technology > > Also: 7. Contributors and Copyright > > > 1. Introduction > > This is a draft design document for the GNOME websites. It's based on the > discussion on gnome-web-list@gnome.org, as well as my own personal > suggestions/preferences. Don't take things here as written in stone, this is > mostly intended as a starting point for discussion. The next version of this document should probably say something like: The is a draft design document for the GNOME websites. It is based on discussion by the GNOME Web Development Team on gnome-web-list@gnome.org as well as feedback from GNOME users, contributors, and developers. Don't take things here as written in stone, this is intended for discussion purposes and to document the theory behind our decisions while developing the website. Delete the following paragraph, it is not relevant to the discussion: > > The structure of the document is fairly general, and is designed to > accommodate most changes, so we won't have to go around changing the actual > structure, just the content of the sections. It's a lot easier that way. > [ More in seperate e-mails ] -Shawn -- Shawn T. Amundson amundson@eventloop.com Research and Development http://www.eventloop.com/ EventLoop, Inc. http://www.snorfle.net/ "The assumption that the universe looks the same in every direction is clearly not true in reality." - Stephen Hawking From amundson@eventloop.com Tue Dec 19 00:24:27 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from skull.eventloop.com (mail.eventloop.com [209.98.211.225]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD99C2C8B5 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:24:26 -0500 (EST) Received: (from amundson@localhost) by skull.eventloop.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id XAA02318 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:24:26 -0600 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:24:26 -0600 From: Shawn T Amundson To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] Message-ID: <20001218232425.C2120@eventloop.com> Reply-To: Shawn T Amundson Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com>; from joakim@helixcode.com on Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:56:57AM -0600 X-Widget-Set-Url: http://www.gtk.org/ Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:56:57AM -0600, Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > 3. Navigation structure/usability > > The navigational structure for the GNOME sites is by no means a given. There > has been a lot of discussion, particularly about the top-level division of > areas, where there have been suggestions for task-oriented, user group > oriented, and subject oriented navigation, as well as variations over these > three basic themes. > > My current proposal is to use a task/subject hybrid structure, with user > group oriented navigation as an alternative method of access. That is, the > main categories of the navigation tree are task/subject oriented, and we > present a small menu in a sidebar or similar on the frontpage for users to > navigate by user group, which leads to one page per user group, with a > collection of links that's relevant for that group. > > That still leaves the problem of creating the top-level categories. It's very > easy to either overspecialize the categories, and end up with too many > (anything over 10-12 is too many, in reality) or create too broad categories > that are unintuitive. I created 12 categories which I believe are rather > intuitive for the user, and span all the information we want to place on the > GNOME sites. I've not created the actual structure beneath each toplevel > category, as I think it's not entirely clear yet what things we actually > *want*, however I believe this structure is general enough that it'll be able > to hold whatever we want to put into it. The order of this list might be > illogical. I think that this is too many things. I already e-mailed this out a few minutes ago, but I'll repeat so the comments below make sense: Toplevel categories: The Desktop - All information for the User and non-coding Contributor (www.gnome.org) Download - Information on downloading GNOME and GNOME Applications (www.gnome.org/download/) Development - For the developer (developer.gnome.org) News - News about GNOME (news.gnome.org) Contact Us - All contact info, press kit, etc. (www.gnome.org/contact_us/) Now, I'll comment on where I think each of the following should land in my proposed toplevel structure. > 3.1 Top-level structure > > About > > Introductory documents. Mainly for those unfamiliar with GNOME in general, > and who want a quick way to figure out what this is all about. Includes the > a "What is GNOME" document, the general GNOME FAQ, and also documents for > companies interested in supporting GNOME, the project roadmap, etc. This type of thing would go in "The Desktop" area. > > > Screenshots > > An important link to have on the front page, since this is what a lot of > people look for. Idea for structure: Split it up into several different > types of screenshots, like "Basic", "Businesslike", "Applications", > "Oddities", etc. Perhaps make screenshots imagemaps which can be clicked to > bring you to the appindex page of each displayed application? > The problem with this is, it creates a parallel navigation to find screenshots. Say for example, I want screenshots of GTK+ widgets. If I am on www.gtk.org and I click screenshots, I would expect to get GTK+ screenshots, not a long list of differnt types of screenshots. Likewise, if I am in the user section, I probably don't care about widget screenshots - I'd rather see apps and themes. Also, if I am at the GNOME Office page I will expect to see GNOME Office screenshots. Therefore, I suggest that screenshot links be stuck in the most obvious place under the category where it makes sense. This will still make it obvious. It will just be on the sidebar instead of the toplevel. > > Get it > > Describe the various ways to get and install GNOME. CVS, GNOME FTP servers, > Linux distributions which include GNOME, and Helix GNOME would all be > relevant pointers here. It's a matter of resources how much we want to > actually support all of this, but we should at least have instructions for > how to get, build and install GNOME from CVS and GNOME FTP. > All of this would be under "Download". In my opinion, "Download" is a stronger term than "Get it". It is more formal and professional. > > Support > > How to get help with GNOME. All the documentation should be here, as well as > pointers to mailing lists, bugzilla, IRC channels, etc. > A lot of this applies to both "The Desktop" and "Development". Links to this information should be in both locations. I suggest that "Support" sounds potentially like commercial support though, so that term not be used for navigation. > > News > > Gnotices in some shape or form. Basically newsitems with discussion. Same. > > > Software > > A revamped, expanded version of the Appindex. Should let you search for > software in a variety of ways, including category, file types it'll read > and write (very practical for all the people who come onto IRC and say > "What GNOME program can read a .foo file?", and so on. Possibly also an > equivalence index, where people can say "I need something like Outlook", > and it'll take you to Evolution. I suggest that this belongs primarily under "Download", with links in "The Desktop" as well. > > > Developer > > Entry for the developer minded. Basically the combined content of today's > developer.gnome.org and www.gtk.org. Same. > > > Press > > All the info members of the press would need to represent GNOME in a > correct manner. Journalists work under time constraints, so this is where > we have the chance to give them all the info they need in one neat package. > Should include a press kit (possibly in PDF format), a list of contact mail > addresses and phone numbers (I know, phone numbers are so 1985, but some > journalists prefer them), press photos (preferably, each press contact > listed should have a downloadable high-resolution photo for the press to > use when interviewing), representative screenshots (of the nice and simple > variety), and so on. The press kit itself should be a brief presentation of > GNOME, talking about the project history, the foundation, the current > status, what corporate backers there are, etc. This should be under "Contact Us". > > Foundation > > All the formal stuff about the foundation, how a company can join the > advisory board, current board of directors, board meeting minutes, and so > on. The exact content of this section should be up to the people more > directly involved with the foundation, I believe. This might justify another toplevel navigation. I hadn't taken it into consideration. > > Contact > > Ways to contact the GNOME project and the members, for various purposes. > This should definitely be broken down by task, so that bug reports can be > directed to bugzilla, press inquiries to the press section, etc. Under Contact Us. > Events > > An events calendar, listing upcoming tradeshows where GNOME will be > present, as well as scheduled upcoming releases. A link should exist to this from "The Desktop", "Development", and "Contact Us". > People > > Developer index, developer interviews (I'd like to resurrect that section, > even though I only ever did one interview, I think it was a good one, and > it's a great way to show the faces behind the software. Actually, it's such > a good idea that KDE cloned it off our site), and so on. Well, a developer index should go under Contact Us. Developer interviews should go under "News". > > 3.2 Other navigation methods, shortcuts into the structure, etc. > > The structure outlined above is a reasonable main navigational structure, but > one structure will never fit everyone. Hence, I'm suggesting augmenting it > with a few metastructures that will mainly be accessible through the front > page: > > > Role description > > Allow people to choose who they are from a small menu (about ten items, > perhaps), and arrive on a page of quick links for the group they chose. The > links go directly into the structure, and are the ones we believe are > useful for that group, in the order they should be read. > > Quick tasks > > Allow people to choose a few typical tasks from a menu, and go directly to > those pages. These should be the 4-8 pages people visit the most, but that > are still not logical to make into top-level categories. Things that spring > to mind as obvious candidates are "Report a bug", "I need help!", etc. I think both "role description" and "quick tasks" are fixes that are employed on sites that have navigation so difficult as to be usable. Hopefully we can do better and won't need these things. The problem with menu things is people are drawn to them and may ignore the rest of the navigation. > Search the site > > A search box on the front page is a necessity, and should search the entire > site. Yes. -Shawn -- Shawn T. Amundson amundson@eventloop.com Research and Development http://www.eventloop.com/ EventLoop, Inc. http://www.snorfle.net/ "The assumption that the universe looks the same in every direction is clearly not true in reality." - Stephen Hawking From amundson@eventloop.com Tue Dec 19 00:37:11 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from skull.eventloop.com (mail.eventloop.com [209.98.211.225]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA0D12BBA9 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:37:10 -0500 (EST) Received: (from amundson@localhost) by skull.eventloop.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id XAA02394 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:37:10 -0600 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:37:10 -0600 From: Shawn T Amundson To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] Message-ID: <20001218233709.D2120@eventloop.com> Reply-To: Shawn T Amundson Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com>; from joakim@helixcode.com on Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:56:57AM -0600 X-Widget-Set-Url: http://www.gtk.org/ Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:56:57AM -0600, Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > 4. Graphical design > > There have been several quick sketches of the web site look and feel on the > list lately. There seems to be considerable agreement on several aspects of > the graphical design. I've tried to sum up those here, as well as inject some > common sense rules, and some opinions of my own, of course. > > > 4.1 Colors and typefaces > > High contrast is easier to read than low contrast. Dark text on a light > background is easier to read than the opposite. It seems clear that we should > use black text on white or light pastel backgrounds throughout the site, to > keep readability as high as possible. This doesn't, however, exclude the > occasional use of light-on-dark for menus with reasonably few items, etc. > > Typefaces on the web are a difficult problem. While technologies like CSS > give decent control over what typefaces the browser chooses to use, there's > no good, standardized and open method for downloading typefaces, hence one is > limited mainly to specifying sans-serif or serif fonts. Sans fonts are widely > used because they look cleaner, however, serifs theoretically increase > readability, if rendered correctly, but font rendering in web browsers, > especially under X, is abysmal. Thus, it might be worth considering using a > sans font for the GNOME sites. I suggest the site be designed in such a manner that this is dynamic and can be changed easily. Think of having things like a Christmas or Halloween theme. (Ok, these are poor cultural examples, but you get what I'm saying.) Or maybe changing the website "theme" in for GNOME 2.0. > 4.2 Headlines and icons > > For maintainability, headlines should be text only. The current design uses > graphics for some text (most notably the menus), and this has proven to be > difficult to maintain and update. Even though there are techniques for > generating images of text on the fly and caching them, we should try to avoid > this as much as possible. > > It would be good to integrate some icons into the site, since GNOME has very > attractive icons on the desktop, etc. However, keeping the site light on > graphics is probably a good idea, and since icons would have to be specially > created for the site, it's dangerous to rely on them (if we had an icon per > section, adding a new section would entail finding an icon artist to do > another icon in the style of the existing ones). I agree completely. > 4.3 Navigation bars and menus > > There are basically two main layouts used for the main navigation bars > (navigating the main hierarchy). One, which has been the standard for most > sites for a very long time, is the "Along the left side of the page" vertical > menu. The advantages are that we can include basically as many items as we > want, since vertical is the axis people are used to scrolling on anyway. The > disadvantage is that subnavigation is difficult to integrate intuitively > (most attempts use an indenting system, which tends to make the menu very > wide). > > The other, which has become more common lately, is the stacked horizontal > navbars along the top of the page. The advantages of this is that revealing > several levels of navigation is very easy and intuitive, by adding bars below > each other, The disadvantage is that it's somewhat limiting in the number of > items that can be included on each level of navigation. > > Personally, I've come to prefer the stacked horizontal bars, if they're > practical given the navigation structure, for a number of reasons. They stay > out of the way a lot more than the vertical menu (since the vertical menus > usually means wrapping the whole content in a table and putting the menu in a > table cell to the left of it, so that there's essentially a strip of blank > space all the way down below the menu bar), it takes up less screen > realestate in general, and it's a model most people are comfortable with. > > We could optionally also include "breadcrumbs" to make finding out exactly > where you are in the structure simpler (breadcrumbs are the category > > subcategory > current page used on for instance yahoo.) > > If we use horizontal stacked bars, I suggest we place the alternate > navigation methods (user group based, quick links, search) in a column along > one of the sides of the frontpage, possibly in little boxes. Because of the long list of things that might potentially be in the secondary menu, I suggest a more standard horizontal toplevel with the vertical secondary. A dual vertical would be difficult to do properly without using graphical text. In addition, if the site is in that big table, you can flip flop between the differenty styles at will. I think the vertical one will be easier initially. > 5. Localization > > We've amply discussed this. I'm going to write a section on it, but I believe > it's not vital right now, and I really want to just get this document out > there. Perhaps someone who has strong opinions supporting Localization should write a draft of this section. I also believe it is not important at this time, but it will quickly become important when implementation eventually begins. > > 6. Technology > > Technology should be decided after a few days of discussion and fleshing out > of the sections above. > I suggest stating it is tenatively PHP with mySQL, because it sounds like that's what most people are thinking. Obviously the group as a whole won't decide this: the implementors and maintainers of the site will determine it. -Shawn -- Shawn T. Amundson amundson@eventloop.com Research and Development http://www.eventloop.com/ EventLoop, Inc. http://www.snorfle.net/ "The assumption that the universe looks the same in every direction is clearly not true in reality." - Stephen Hawking From amundson@eventloop.com Tue Dec 19 00:52:09 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from skull.eventloop.com (mail.eventloop.com [209.98.211.225]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09EAF2BB7B for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:52:09 -0500 (EST) Received: (from amundson@localhost) by skull.eventloop.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id XAA02477; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:52:07 -0600 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:52:07 -0600 From: Shawn T Amundson To: digitect Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001218235207.E2120@eventloop.com> Reply-To: Shawn T Amundson Mail-Followup-To: digitect , gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <003901c0688a$defbe6c0$0201a8c0@pc001> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <003901c0688a$defbe6c0$0201a8c0@pc001>; from digitect@mindspring.com on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 07:38:41PM -0500 X-Widget-Set-Url: http://www.gtk.org/ Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 07:38:41PM -0500, digitect wrote: > > Anyone else care to chime in with opinions of colors? Joakim and I have been > preaching at each other for quite a few exchanges but I hope we haven't scared > everybody else off. I'll try to keep it down a little until next weekend. I have a hard time visualizing what the site will look like without seeing a full mockup. :-( I will suggest that we might want different color schemes on different parts of the site. For example, the murky brown color might be a good starting point for the development portion of the site, while happier brighter colors might be better for providing info to users. Just a thought. I definately think that GNotices should have a unique look and a branding of it's own, as well as "fit in". -Shawn -- Shawn T. Amundson amundson@eventloop.com Research and Development http://www.eventloop.com/ EventLoop, Inc. http://www.snorfle.net/ "The assumption that the universe looks the same in every direction is clearly not true in reality." - Stephen Hawking From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Tue Dec 19 00:54:58 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 939022BB7B for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:54:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id XAA168182 (8.9.1/50); Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:54:09 -0600 Message-Id: <200012190554.XAA168182@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: 2. Audience (was Re: Design document [Draft 1]) From: Ryan Muldoon To: Shawn T Amundson Cc: Tomas "V.V.Cox" , Joakim Ziegler , gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20001218224106.A2120@eventloop.com> References: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <3A3CC32C.1FF011DA@idecnet.com> <20001218224106.A2120@eventloop.com> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 19 Dec 2000 09:55:14 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > Again, I'd like to stress my belief that the website should feel > like it is for desktop users and developers, not for press and > big business. I agree that it is important information and a very > important group of people, but GNOME's *image* is more important. > I completely agree > I suggest Press things be categorized under "Contact Us". Perhaps > on that page, have a link to the "Press Kit" pages. This will not > be too hard to find for the press. The other portion, a overview > of what GNOME is, should be on the homepage. I suggest that someone > could start writing some nice text for GNOME's front page which is > interesting and pulls you into various areas of the project. > This sounds like a good idea to me > I am curious what specific things are targetted at Businesses and > not just large groups of users (like Universities). > I think the intention was to get businesses looking at the foundation. I guess that this could fit under "contact us" - but we should aim for clarity whenever possible. > I suggest the following top level navigation: > > | | The Desktop | Download | Development | News | Contact Us | > |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > | (Contents Bar)| > | ..... | > | ..... | > | ..... | > | ..... | > | ..... | > |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > | Webmaster | Legal > > Here is what would go in each section: > > The Desktop - All information for the User and non-coding Contributor (www.gnome.org) > Download - Information on downloading GNOME and GNOME Applications (www.gnome.org/download/) > Development - For the developer (developer.gnome.org) > News - News about GNOME (news.gnome.org) > Contact Us - All contact info, press kit, etc. (www.gnome.org/contact_us/) > what about a "Projects" subheading? This might be useful to point to sub-groups, like Documentation, Translation, UI, Sound, etc. The benefit of a "projects" section would be that my "projects of the week" idea would fall nicely under that category. (wording would have to change though...) --Ryan From amundson@eventloop.com Tue Dec 19 01:02:09 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from skull.eventloop.com (mail.eventloop.com [209.98.211.225]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84FCD2BB7B for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 01:02:08 -0500 (EST) Received: (from amundson@localhost) by skull.eventloop.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id AAA02553; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:01:59 -0600 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:01:59 -0600 From: Shawn T Amundson To: Ryan Muldoon Cc: "Tomas V.V.Cox" , Joakim Ziegler , gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: 2. Audience (was Re: Design document [Draft 1]) Message-ID: <20001219000159.F2120@eventloop.com> Reply-To: Shawn T Amundson Mail-Followup-To: Ryan Muldoon , "Tomas V.V.Cox" , Joakim Ziegler , gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <3A3CC32C.1FF011DA@idecnet.com> <20001218224106.A2120@eventloop.com> <200012190554.XAA168182@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012190554.XAA168182@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 09:55:14AM +0500 X-Widget-Set-Url: http://www.gtk.org/ Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 09:55:14AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > > > I am curious what specific things are targetted at Businesses and > > not just large groups of users (like Universities). > > > I think the intention was to get businesses looking at the foundation. > I guess that this could fit under "contact us" - but we should aim for > clarity whenever possible. Ok, I suggest "Foundation" also be a toplevel heading which takes you to the foundation website. > > > I suggest the following top level navigation: > > > > | | The Desktop | Download | Development | News | Contact Us | > > |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > | (Contents Bar)| > > | ..... | > > | ..... | > > | ..... | > > | ..... | > > | ..... | > > |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > | Webmaster | Legal > > > > Here is what would go in each section: > > > > The Desktop - All information for the User and non-coding Contributor (www.gnome.org) > > Download - Information on downloading GNOME and GNOME Applications (www.gnome.org/download/) > > Development - For the developer (developer.gnome.org) > > News - News about GNOME (news.gnome.org) > > Contact Us - All contact info, press kit, etc. (www.gnome.org/contact_us/) > > > what about a "Projects" subheading? This might be useful to point to > sub-groups, like Documentation, Translation, UI, Sound, etc. > > The benefit of a "projects" section would be that my "projects of the week" > idea would fall nicely under that category. (wording would have to change > though...) > This would go under "The Desktop" since they are contributor things. There will be quite a few things on the sidebar, and we should probably go over each area one-by-one and figure out exactly what goes in each area. First we need to agree on an initial set of toplevel navigation controls. If later on we can't resolve where things should go, we start over. -Shawn -- Shawn T. Amundson amundson@eventloop.com Research and Development http://www.eventloop.com/ EventLoop, Inc. http://www.snorfle.net/ "The assumption that the universe looks the same in every direction is clearly not true in reality." - Stephen Hawking From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Tue Dec 19 01:02:50 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1EF72BB7B for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 01:02:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id AAA51320 (8.9.1/50); Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:02:40 -0600 Message-Id: <200012190602.AAA51320@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: GNOME colors From: Ryan Muldoon To: Shawn T Amundson Cc: digitect , gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20001218235207.E2120@eventloop.com> References: <003901c0688a$defbe6c0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001218235207.E2120@eventloop.com> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 19 Dec 2000 10:03:46 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 07:38:41PM -0500, digitect wrote: > > > > Anyone else care to chime in with opinions of colors? Joakim and I have been > > preaching at each other for quite a few exchanges but I hope we haven't scared > > everybody else off. I'll try to keep it down a little until next weekend. > > I have a hard time visualizing what the site will look like > without seeing a full mockup. :-( > I think this is what is holding back most other people on the list as well.... digitect has a decent mockup of some color ideas already.....maybe he can spend a little time working on it to add in his color suggestions? In a couple days I'll try and do the same, as time allows. > I will suggest that we might want different color schemes on > different parts of the site. For example, the murky brown > color might be a good starting point for the development portion > of the site, while happier brighter colors might be better for > providing info to users. Just a thought. I definately think > that GNotices should have a unique look and a branding of it's > own, as well as "fit in". I think a good idea is what digitect mentioned earlier: establishing a set of colors to work with, and then have each subsite be a different arrangement of those colors. It would let each section have its own identity, while being easily associated with the gnome.org umbrella. That gives us a lot of leeway for each section. Some common elements (like text) should be consistent throughout, of course. --Ryan From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Tue Dec 19 01:12:49 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD8422BB7B for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 01:12:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id AAA19364 (8.9.1/50); Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:12:25 -0600 Message-Id: <200012190612.AAA19364@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: 2. Audience (was Re: Design document [Draft 1]) From: Ryan Muldoon To: Shawn T Amundson Cc: Tomas "V.V.Cox" , Joakim Ziegler , gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20001219000159.F2120@eventloop.com> References: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <3A3CC32C.1FF011DA@idecnet.com> <20001218224106.A2120@eventloop.com> <200012190554.XAA168182@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219000159.F2120@eventloop.com> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 19 Dec 2000 10:13:30 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 09:55:14AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > > > > > I am curious what specific things are targetted at Businesses and > > > not just large groups of users (like Universities). > > > > > I think the intention was to get businesses looking at the foundation. > > I guess that this could fit under "contact us" - but we should aim for > > clarity whenever possible. > > Ok, I suggest "Foundation" also be a toplevel heading which takes you to > the foundation website. > ok, that sounds like a good idea > > > > > I suggest the following top level navigation: > > > > > > | | The Desktop | Download | Development | News | Contact Us | > > > |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > | (Contents Bar)| > > > | ..... | > > > | ..... | > > > | ..... | > > > | ..... | > > > | ..... | > > > |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > | Webmaster | Legal > > > > > > Here is what would go in each section: > > > > > > The Desktop - All information for the User and non-coding Contributor (www.gnome.org) > > > Download - Information on downloading GNOME and GNOME Applications (www.gnome.org/download/) > > > Development - For the developer (developer.gnome.org) > > > News - News about GNOME (news.gnome.org) > > > Contact Us - All contact info, press kit, etc. (www.gnome.org/contact_us/) > > > > > what about a "Projects" subheading? This might be useful to point to > > sub-groups, like Documentation, Translation, UI, Sound, etc. > > > > The benefit of a "projects" section would be that my "projects of the week" > > idea would fall nicely under that category. (wording would have to change > > though...) > > > > This would go under "The Desktop" since they are contributor > things. > > There will be quite a few things on the sidebar, and we should > probably go over each area one-by-one and figure out exactly > what goes in each area. First we need to agree on an initial set > of toplevel navigation controls. If later on we can't resolve > where things should go, we start over. > I think that we should avoid things like sub-sub-headings if possible..... I'll try and think about this tomorrow and see if I can come up with a suggested navigation system. --Ryan From amundson@eventloop.com Tue Dec 19 01:13:21 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from skull.eventloop.com (mail.eventloop.com [209.98.211.225]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FDD12BB7B for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 01:13:20 -0500 (EST) Received: (from amundson@localhost) by skull.eventloop.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id AAA02638; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:13:18 -0600 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:13:18 -0600 From: Shawn T Amundson To: Ryan Muldoon Cc: digitect , gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001219001318.A2615@eventloop.com> Reply-To: Shawn T Amundson Mail-Followup-To: Ryan Muldoon , digitect , gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <003901c0688a$defbe6c0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001218235207.E2120@eventloop.com> <200012190602.AAA51320@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012190602.AAA51320@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:03:46AM +0500 X-Widget-Set-Url: http://www.gtk.org/ Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:03:46AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > > I think a good idea is what digitect mentioned earlier: establishing a set of > colors to work with, and then have each subsite be a different arrangement of > those colors. It would let each section have its own identity, while being > easily associated with the gnome.org umbrella. That gives us a lot of leeway > for each section. Some common elements (like text) should be consistent > throughout, of course. > I admit I read through the color thread *really* quickly. ;-) -Shawn -- Shawn T. Amundson amundson@eventloop.com Research and Development http://www.eventloop.com/ EventLoop, Inc. http://www.snorfle.net/ "The assumption that the universe looks the same in every direction is clearly not true in reality." - Stephen Hawking From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Tue Dec 19 08:53:43 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D3E72BEFE for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:53:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148NDD-0006uq-00; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:53:52 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:49:17 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: "Tomas V.V.Cox" , Ryan Muldoon , gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: 2. Audience (was Re: Design document [Draft 1]) Message-ID: <20001219084917.B2280@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: "Tomas V.V.Cox" , Ryan Muldoon , gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <3A3CC32C.1FF011DA@idecnet.com> <20001218224106.A2120@eventloop.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20001218224106.A2120@eventloop.com>; from amundson@eventloop.com on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 10:41:07PM -0600 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 10:41:07PM -0600, Shawn T Amundson wrote: > Again, I'd like to stress my belief that the website should feel > like it is for desktop users and developers, not for press and > big business. I agree that it is important information and a very > important group of people, but GNOME's *image* is more important. > I suggest Press things be categorized under "Contact Us". Perhaps > on that page, have a link to the "Press Kit" pages. This will not > be too hard to find for the press. The other portion, a overview > of what GNOME is, should be on the homepage. I suggest that someone > could start writing some nice text for GNOME's front page which is > interesting and pulls you into various areas of the project. Having press as a top-level navigation category is a good idea, I think. It doesn't skew the focus of the site significantly away from users and developers, since there will be about 10 top level categories no matter what we do. Since press stuff isn't just about contact, but also about a specific type of information, it's very useful to put it all in one place. > I am curious what specific things are targetted at Businesses and > not just large groups of users (like Universities). There are a couple of things. First of all, information on/marketing for the foundation targetted towards businesses who might want to join the advisory board. Secondly, Red Hat have asked me in the past about a place to put information for ISVs who are considering porting their applications to GNOME (and have volunteered to produce that information). > I suggest the following top level navigation: > > | | The Desktop | Download | Development | News | Contact Us | > |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > | (Contents Bar)| > | ..... | > | ..... | > | ..... | > | ..... | > | ..... | > |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > | Webmaster | Legal > Here is what would go in each section: > The Desktop - All information for the User and non-coding Contributor (www.gnome.org) > Download - Information on downloading GNOME and GNOME Applications (www.gnome.org/download/) > Development - For the developer (developer.gnome.org) > News - News about GNOME (news.gnome.org) > Contact Us - All contact info, press kit, etc. (www.gnome.org/contact_us/) > Everything else would be in the sidebar under one of these categories. These categories seem very broad to me. Specifically "The Desktop" would have around 10 subcategories, while "Download" would hardly have any. If "Download" is a top-level category, why isn't "Screenshots"? They're both things people do a lot, and are likely to do immediately. I think the navigational structure needs more thinking. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Tue Dec 19 08:54:56 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8963D2BEFE for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:54:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148NF1-0007rQ-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:55:43 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:51:09 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: 2. Audience (was Re: Design document [Draft 1]) Message-ID: <20001219085109.C2280@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <3A3CC32C.1FF011DA@idecnet.com> <20001218224106.A2120@eventloop.com> <200012190554.XAA168182@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219000159.F2120@eventloop.com> <200012190612.AAA19364@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012190612.AAA19364@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:13:30AM +0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:13:30AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: >> On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 09:55:14AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: >> There will be quite a few things on the sidebar, and we should >> probably go over each area one-by-one and figure out exactly >> what goes in each area. First we need to agree on an initial set >> of toplevel navigation controls. If later on we can't resolve >> where things should go, we start over. > I think that we should avoid things like sub-sub-headings if possible..... > I'll try and think about this tomorrow and see if I can come up with a > suggested navigation system. Just a word of warning: It's usually very hard to avoid three levels of navigation on a site that has any amount of content at all. This goes double if you want rather few top level categories (like "The Desktop" would be impossible to categorize properly with only one more level under it). -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Tue Dec 19 09:25:25 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B83202BB87 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:25:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148NiW-0004Sj-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:26:12 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:21:37 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] Message-ID: <20001219092137.D2280@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> <20001218232425.C2120@eventloop.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20001218232425.C2120@eventloop.com>; from amundson@eventloop.com on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 11:24:26PM -0600 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 11:24:26PM -0600, Shawn T Amundson wrote: > On Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:56:57AM -0600, Joakim Ziegler wrote: > I think that this is too many things. I already e-mailed this out a few > minutes ago, but I'll repeat so the comments below make sense: > Toplevel categories: > > The Desktop - All information for the User and non-coding Contributor (www.gnome.org) > Download - Information on downloading GNOME and GNOME Applications (www.gnome.org/download/) > Development - For the developer (developer.gnome.org) > News - News about GNOME (news.gnome.org) > Contact Us - All contact info, press kit, etc. (www.gnome.org/contact_us/) > Now, I'll comment on where I think each of the following should land in > my proposed toplevel structure. I think this is too few things, by far. Look at any largish company site that has a set of products and activities ranging as wide as the GNOME project. On the Microsoft frontpage, I count 32 top-level navigation links, not counting the links inside the actual body part of the site, sorted into 6 categories of links. The KDE site has 37 links on the front page navigational structure, separated into 10 categgories of links. Adobe has 7 main navigation categories. Red Hat has 19 links in 6 categories. The new Helix Code site will have 9 top level categories. All are more than 5, some a lot more. (Yes, I'm making the assumption here that these sites do things right. I think that's a reasonable one.) >> About >> Introductory documents. Mainly for those unfamiliar with GNOME in general, >> and who want a quick way to figure out what this is all about. Includes the >> a "What is GNOME" document, the general GNOME FAQ, and also documents for >> companies interested in supporting GNOME, the project roadmap, etc. > This type of thing would go in "The Desktop" area. It's not just about the desktop, though. As I've said so many times that people might actually find it boring already, GNOME is a lot more than a desktop, and the desktop is already the thing getting the most exposure. The other about stuff are introductions to GNOME as a whole, history of the GNOME project, roadmaps and release schedules, what companies are backing GNOME, etc. >> Screenshots >> An important link to have on the front page, since this is what a lot of >> people look for. Idea for structure: Split it up into several different >> types of screenshots, like "Basic", "Businesslike", "Applications", >> "Oddities", etc. Perhaps make screenshots imagemaps which can be clicked to >> bring you to the appindex page of each displayed application? > The problem with this is, it creates a parallel navigation to > find screenshots. Say for example, I want screenshots of GTK+ > widgets. If I am on www.gtk.org and I click screenshots, I > would expect to get GTK+ screenshots, not a long list of differnt > types of screenshots. Likewise, if I am in the user section, > I probably don't care about widget screenshots - I'd rather see > apps and themes. Also, if I am at the GNOME Office page I will > expect to see GNOME Office screenshots. > Therefore, I suggest that screenshot links be stuck in the most > obvious place under the category where it makes sense. This will > still make it obvious. It will just be on the sidebar instead > of the toplevel. There's nothing wrong with parallel navigation. In fact, just about any nontrivial information structure will have to tangle the hierarchy, or you'll have incredible headaches about where to put stuff. A good way to do the screenshots thing would likely be to make it a trivial script, so you can ask for screenshots including a specific app/widget/whatever. You'll end up with parallel navigation no matter what, since if you're on the page for an app, and click on "Download", you should be taken to the "Download" section. >> Get it >> >> Describe the various ways to get and install GNOME. CVS, GNOME FTP servers, >> Linux distributions which include GNOME, and Helix GNOME would all be >> relevant pointers here. It's a matter of resources how much we want to >> actually support all of this, but we should at least have instructions for >> how to get, build and install GNOME from CVS and GNOME FTP. > All of this would be under "Download". In my opinion, "Download" is a > stronger term than "Get it". It is more formal and professional. Sure, this could be renamed. What are other people's opinion? >> Support >> How to get help with GNOME. All the documentation should be here, as well as >> pointers to mailing lists, bugzilla, IRC channels, etc. >> > A lot of this applies to both "The Desktop" and "Development". Links to > this information should be in both locations. I suggest that "Support" > sounds potentially like commercial support though, so that term not be used > for navigation. Commercial support should probably be in here too, actually. There's a reasonably large number of companies offering commercial support at the moment (take a look at http://www.gnome.org/commsupp.html ). I think support is a good candidate for a top level categorie precisely because it applies to several other areas. Tangling the hierarchy with something that's just linked to from two different branches, but isn't accessible on its own seems very counterintuitive to me. >> Software >> A revamped, expanded version of the Appindex. Should let you search for >> software in a variety of ways, including category, file types it'll read >> and write (very practical for all the people who come onto IRC and say >> "What GNOME program can read a .foo file?", and so on. Possibly also an >> equivalence index, where people can say "I need something like Outlook", >> and it'll take you to Evolution. > I suggest that this belongs primarily under "Download", with links in > "The Desktop" as well. Downloading the software is just a small part of what you do with it, though. And some of it also belongs in "Developer", since there will be libraries and development tools and whatnot. This spread suggests to me that it should be its own category. >> Press >> All the info members of the press would need to represent GNOME in a >> correct manner. Journalists work under time constraints, so this is where >> we have the chance to give them all the info they need in one neat package. >> Should include a press kit (possibly in PDF format), a list of contact mail >> addresses and phone numbers (I know, phone numbers are so 1985, but some >> journalists prefer them), press photos (preferably, each press contact >> listed should have a downloadable high-resolution photo for the press to >> use when interviewing), representative screenshots (of the nice and simple >> variety), and so on. The press kit itself should be a brief presentation of >> GNOME, talking about the project history, the foundation, the current >> status, what corporate backers there are, etc. > This should be under "Contact Us". Actually, if we were to put it somewhere, I'd put it in "About" (Which I'm 100% sure is a good idea to have as a top-level item, per the reasons above). >> Events >> An events calendar, listing upcoming tradeshows where GNOME will be >> present, as well as scheduled upcoming releases. > A link should exist to this from "The Desktop", "Development", and > "Contact Us". Actually, it might belong on news.gnome.org (in other words, under "News", now that I think about it. The main problem with the events page as it is, is that it's hard to keep it up to date, traditionally. >> People >> Developer index, developer interviews (I'd like to resurrect that section, >> even though I only ever did one interview, I think it was a good one, and >> it's a great way to show the faces behind the software. Actually, it's such >> a good idea that KDE cloned it off our site), and so on. > Well, a developer index should go under Contact Us. Developer interviews > should go under "News". They're not really news, though. If you were looking to find out who the people behind GNOME were, would "News" be your first choice? I think keeping people as a top level category has a strong symbolic effect too, in this time of corporate involvement. >> Role description >> Allow people to choose who they are from a small menu (about ten items, >> perhaps), and arrive on a page of quick links for the group they chose. The >> links go directly into the structure, and are the ones we believe are >> useful for that group, in the order they should be read. >> Quick tasks >> Allow people to choose a few typical tasks from a menu, and go directly to >> those pages. These should be the 4-8 pages people visit the most, but that >> are still not logical to make into top-level categories. Things that spring >> to mind as obvious candidates are "Report a bug", "I need help!", etc. > I think both "role description" and "quick tasks" are fixes that are employed > on sites that have navigation so difficult as to be usable. Hopefully we > can do better and won't need these things. The problem with menu things is > people are drawn to them and may ignore the rest of the navigation. They can be that, but it's by no means necessary. Role oriented navigation is a valid navigational metaphor, and "Quick links" are an excellent way to point the way to things that are often used, but aren't top level categories. In fact, if we cut down on the number of categories, the quick links would be even more important (screenshots would become one, for instance). -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Tue Dec 19 09:30:05 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9E9E2DD19 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:30:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148Nn2-0000IO-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:30:52 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:26:18 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] Message-ID: <20001219092618.E2280@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> <20001218233709.D2120@eventloop.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20001218233709.D2120@eventloop.com>; from amundson@eventloop.com on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 11:37:10PM -0600 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 11:37:10PM -0600, Shawn T Amundson wrote: > On Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:56:57AM -0600, Joakim Ziegler wrote: > I suggest the site be designed in such a manner that this is dynamic > and can be changed easily. Think of having things like a Christmas or > Halloween theme. (Ok, these are poor cultural examples, but you get > what I'm saying.) Or maybe changing the website "theme" in for GNOME > 2.0. This is fairly easy no matter what, I think, if we use PHP or such for generating the pages. Headers and footers for the site would just be function calls, etc. > Because of the long list of things that might potentially be in the > secondary menu, I suggest a more standard horizontal toplevel with > the vertical secondary. > A dual vertical would be difficult to do properly without using > graphical text. > In addition, if the site is in that big table, you can flip flop > between the differenty styles at will. I think the vertical one > will be easier initially. I think we should let this wait until we've figured out the navigational structure. With the one I proposed, the number of items on the second level wouldn't be that high, while with your proposal, it would be. >> 5. Localization >> We've amply discussed this. I'm going to write a section on it, but I believe >> it's not vital right now, and I really want to just get this document out >> there. > Perhaps someone who has strong opinions supporting Localization should write > a draft of this section. I also believe it is not important at this time, but > it will quickly become important when implementation eventually begins. Yes, that would be great. Any takers? >> 6. Technology >> Technology should be decided after a few days of discussion and fleshing out >> of the sections above. > I suggest stating it is tenatively PHP with mySQL, because it sounds > like that's what most people are thinking. Obviously the group as a > whole won't decide this: the implementors and maintainers of the site > will determine it. I agree. Duly noted for the next draft. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From mark@websidestory.com Tue Dec 19 11:52:08 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.websidestory.com (mail1.websidestory.com [208.232.223.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E9442BC51 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:52:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from websidestory.com (pip-1.hitbox.com [209.75.20.72]) by mail1.websidestory.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id eBJGq7E28383 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:52:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A3F9374.6E11A9E9@websidestory.com> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:57:24 -0800 From: Mark Koopman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> <20001218232425.C2120@eventloop.com> <20001219092137.D2280@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > >> Get it > >> > >> Describe the various ways to get and install GNOME. CVS, GNOME FTP servers, > >> Linux distributions which include GNOME, and Helix GNOME would all be > >> relevant pointers here. It's a matter of resources how much we want to > >> actually support all of this, but we should at least have instructions for > >> how to get, build and install GNOME from CVS and GNOME FTP. > > > All of this would be under "Download". In my opinion, "Download" is a > > stronger term than "Get it". It is more formal and professional. > > Sure, this could be renamed. What are other people's opinion? > unless some naming convention is what we want to follow, 'Download' IMO is much more concise, widely accepted and understood. > >> Software > > >> A revamped, expanded version of the Appindex. Should let you search for > >> software in a variety of ways, including category, file types it'll read > >> and write (very practical for all the people who come onto IRC and say > >> "What GNOME program can read a .foo file?", and so on. Possibly also an > >> equivalence index, where people can say "I need something like Outlook", > >> and it'll take you to Evolution. > > > I suggest that this belongs primarily under "Download", with links in > > "The Desktop" as well. > > Downloading the software is just a small part of what you do with it, though. > And some of it also belongs in "Developer", since there will be libraries and > development tools and whatnot. This spread suggests to me that it should be > its own category. > maybe off a Download page, have links for each app that links to it's appropriate Appindex page? Sourceforge-ish style, perhaps? > >> Press > > >> All the info members of the press would need to represent GNOME in a > >> correct manner. Journalists work under time constraints, so this is where > >> we have the chance to give them all the info they need in one neat package. > >> Should include a press kit (possibly in PDF format), a list of contact mail > >> addresses and phone numbers (I know, phone numbers are so 1985, but some > >> journalists prefer them), press photos (preferably, each press contact > >> listed should have a downloadable high-resolution photo for the press to > >> use when interviewing), representative screenshots (of the nice and simple > >> variety), and so on. The press kit itself should be a brief presentation of > >> GNOME, talking about the project history, the foundation, the current > >> status, what corporate backers there are, etc. > > > This should be under "Contact Us". > > Actually, if we were to put it somewhere, I'd put it in "About" (Which I'm > 100% sure is a good idea to have as a top-level item, per the reasons above). > i vote About! Press information should be in an About page, because an About section is a easily understood link that leads anyone to know more 'about' something. the Press's main purpose is to inform the public 'about' things. :) #!/usr/local/bin/perl # Mark Koopman - mark@websidestory.com # Software Engineer # # WebSideStory, Inc # # 10182 Telesis Court # San Diego CA 92121 # 858.546.1182.##.318 # 858.546.0480.fax eval(lc(join('', map ({chr}(q( 49877273766940 80827378843973 32767986693280 69827639463932 39883673434341 ))=~/../g)))); From ulf@obsession.se Tue Dec 19 13:17:41 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from angel.algonet.se (angel.algonet.se [194.213.74.112]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B5C982BB95 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:17:40 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 522 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2000 19:17:34 +0100 Received: from garibaldi.tninet.se (HELO algonet.se) (195.100.94.103) by angel.algonet.se with SMTP; 19 Dec 2000 19:17:34 +0100 Received: from obsession.se (sdu95-77.ppp.algonet.se [195.163.77.95]) by garibaldi.tninet.se (BLUETAIL Mail Robustifier 2.2.1) with ESMTP id 49810.249853.977garibaldi-s2 ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 19:17:33 +0100 Message-ID: <3A40F7E0.4CF245AF@obsession.se> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:18:08 +0100 From: Ulf Pettersson Reply-To: ulf@obsession.se Organization: Obsession Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: digitect@mindspring.com, gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: On colour References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > Oops, I guess I didn't mean to suggest that we use ALL these colors on one page... ...I would heartily agree that no artist could/should work out a composition with even half of them! That does feel a lot better. > But thanks for bringing it up, because I'm wondering if you think that's a valid approach. In general, yes. But i would choose a few primary colours first and work out the variations as I designed the actual pages. > I've been thinking that each major section should be a variation of one theme. Good idea. >But do you think GNOME should have our different sub-sites look different, or all the same? Different, definately. But the _main_ difference should come from the fact that the content is different, not from different visual profiles. Visual consistency is a big problem in free software design, the value of branding and placing products in a 'family' is vastly underrated. Isn't one of the main tasks of this list to make all the Gnome web sites use the same visual profile? > I'll also say that there are more than just two theories about what constitutes "good" color composition, although the two you mention are the most common. Certainly. It just didn't seem to me like much of any theory was used at all, with colours from all across the spectrum without priorities ;). I narrowmindedly expected people on this list only to be some variation of perl-hacker/programmer and in my experience they never know anything about (perceptive) colour-theory. I'm not that good with colour anyway, I can never choose. > http://www.kitchen-emporium.com/colour.html Thanks. > I'm particularly fond of neutral, but that's because I'm an architect. Doesn't really surprise me, given those colours. > Wow, it's tough to discuss this stuff in writing! Thanks for bearing with me. It is yes, even tougher having to do it in second-language English. Ulf Pettersson From ulf@obsession.se Tue Dec 19 15:41:38 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from knatte.tninet.se (knatte.tninet.se [195.100.94.10]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8DB7B2BBE3 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:41:37 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 2724 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2000 21:41:36 +0100 Received: from garibaldi.tninet.se (HELO algonet.se) (195.100.94.103) by knatte.tninet.se with SMTP; 19 Dec 2000 21:41:36 +0100 Received: from obsession.se (sdu95-77.ppp.algonet.se [195.163.77.95]) by garibaldi.tninet.se (BLUETAIL Mail Robustifier 2.2.1) with ESMTP id 208082.258495.977garibaldi-s0 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:41:35 +0100 Message-ID: <3A4119A4.24FB39FA@obsession.se> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:42:12 +0100 From: Ulf Pettersson Reply-To: ulf@obsession.se Organization: Obsession Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: [Fwd: Re: On colour] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work >Secondly, a desktop and a > web site are so different media that it would be a bad idea to try to unify > them too much (Apple were only able to unify their web site and desktop after > they turned the desktop into a visual circus of useless chrome, which has > received more or less unanimous bad reviews from usability experts, and The point is not to unify them in a practical sense but in a branding sense. Of course it would be wrong to use ui features as buttons or visual elements on the website or excess in graphics just because you want an exact os look. Ulf Pettersson From ulf@obsession.se Tue Dec 19 15:42:40 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from hromeo.algonet.se (hromeo.algonet.se [194.213.74.51]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7918A2BBE3 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:42:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 16217 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2000 21:42:37 +0100 Received: from garibaldi.tninet.se (HELO algonet.se) (195.100.94.103) by hromeo.algonet.se with SMTP; 19 Dec 2000 21:42:37 +0100 Received: from obsession.se (sdu95-77.ppp.algonet.se [195.163.77.95]) by garibaldi.tninet.se (BLUETAIL Mail Robustifier 2.2.1) with ESMTP id 899174.258556.977garibaldi-s2 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:42:36 +0100 Message-ID: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:43:14 +0100 From: Ulf Pettersson Reply-To: ulf@obsession.se Organization: Obsession Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > I will suggest that we might want different color schemes on > different parts of the site. Completely different color schemes is not a good suggestion. It will break the consistency of the site. > For example, the murky brown > color might be a good starting point for the development portion > of the site, while happier brighter colors might be better for > providing info to users. Just a thought. I definately think > that GNotices should have a unique look and a branding of it's > own, as well as "fit in". Why? Ulf Pettersson From ulf@obsession.se Tue Dec 19 16:03:15 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from musse.tninet.se (musse.tninet.se [195.100.94.12]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B42382C9FE for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:03:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 5797 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2000 22:03:11 +0100 Received: from garibaldi.tninet.se (HELO algonet.se) (195.100.94.103) by musse.tninet.se with SMTP; 19 Dec 2000 22:03:11 +0100 Received: from obsession.se (sdu95-77.ppp.algonet.se [195.163.77.95]) by garibaldi.tninet.se (BLUETAIL Mail Robustifier 2.2.1) with ESMTP id 586130.259790.977garibaldi-s2 ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:03:10 +0100 Message-ID: <3A411E99.ACB7E6C0@obsession.se> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:03:21 +0100 From: Ulf Pettersson Reply-To: ulf@obsession.se Organization: Obsession Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joakim Ziegler , gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> <20001218232425.C2120@eventloop.com> <20001219092137.D2280@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > This type of thing would go in "The Desktop" area. > > It's not just about the desktop, though. As I've said so many times that > people might actually find it boring already, GNOME is a lot more than a > desktop, and the desktop is already the thing getting the most exposure. The > other about stuff are introductions to GNOME as a whole, history of the GNOME > project, roadmaps and release schedules, what companies are backing GNOME, etc. Desktop just isn't a good choice as a top-level category. I would not understand what to find there. Joakims original proposal was better. > >> Screenshots > > Therefore, I suggest that screenshot links be stuck in the most > > obvious place under the category where it makes sense. This will > > still make it obvious. It will just be on the sidebar instead > > of the toplevel. > > There's nothing wrong with parallel navigation. In fact, just about any > nontrivial information structure will have to tangle the hierarchy, or you'll Good point. However it must be combined with a very strict and consistent hierarchy. This is not easy of course. > > All of this would be under "Download". In my opinion, "Download" is a > > stronger term than "Get it". It is more formal and professional. > > Sure, this could be renamed. What are other people's opinion? I don't know about formal or professional but Download is a lot easier for me to understand (as swedish native). It is also the term used most widely, for sure. Ulf Pettersson From jdub@aphid.net Tue Dec 19 17:47:11 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mr14.vic-remote.bigpond.net.au (mr14.vic-remote.bigpond.net.au [24.192.1.29]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DE682D484 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 17:47:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (CPE-61-9-177-91.vic.bigpond.net.au [61.9.177.91]) by mr14.vic-remote.bigpond.net.au (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA20426 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:47:01 +1100 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0BC9F39560; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:46:53 +1100 (EST) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:46:53 +1100 From: Jeff Waugh To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: GNOME Sites & Colour Coding Message-ID: <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> Mail-Followup-To: Jeff Waugh , gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se>; from ulf@obsession.se on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:43:14PM +0100 X-Message: Leenooks, Lienucks, Leenoos, Lienus, Let's call the whole thing off. X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.17 i686 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > I will suggest that we might want different color schemes on > > different parts of the site. > > Completely different color schemes is not a good suggestion. It will break the > consistency of the site. You'll find that he means s/different/complementary/ -> this is a good idea, and makes navigation much clearer. Have I missed any? (I'm almost sure I have.) gnome.org news.gnome.org developer.gnome.org foundation.gnome.org (gnome-foundation.org, etc) gtk.org - Jeff -- jdub@aphid.net ----------------------------- http://lazarus.aphid.net/ -- "Can we have a special TELSABUG category, and everything gets dropped to fix them first?" - Telsa Gwynne From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Tue Dec 19 18:37:30 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05E3E2BBFC for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:37:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id RAA24628 (8.9.1/50); Tue, 19 Dec 2000 17:37:22 -0600 Message-Id: <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Navigation Proposal From: Ryan Muldoon To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 20 Dec 2000 03:38:28 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Since I had a bit of time on my hands, I tried to think of a slighly more intuitive way to arrange navigation for the GNOME sites. This may or may not translate well for gtk.org .....I think that gtk.org's main page will have to just have a different (more sparse) set of navigational links, and then all of the links will go to pages with gnome.org-style navigation. Basically, my goal was to cut down on the number of main sections. It seemed like a bad idea to me to have 10 top-level sections. I cut it down to 6, and still managed (I think) to cover all the bases that Joakim's proposal did. I also managed to sneak in my "Project of the Week." My current thinking is that we should try to have a different "main" color for each section (from the pool of colors we will decide on), and then use the other colors for accents. That way, we keep with the same colors throughout, but give each site it's own look. Anyway, please feel free to give me some criticism. I tried to model this after my structural suggestion for how the websites should be organized (from my email "initial structure ideas" from a month ago). About Press Kit Screenshots FAQ List of Contributors Community IRC info GNOME roadmap Project of the Week Developer Interviews Mailing lists Events News Development Tutorials Whitepapers API Reference CVS Foundation Charter Meeting Minutes Board Members Advisory Board Membership Projects Localization UI Hitsquad Sound Documentation Software Application List Bugzilla Download From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Tue Dec 19 22:31:20 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92CB92BF82 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:31:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148ZzB-0008TK-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 04:32:13 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:27:31 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:38:28AM +0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:38:28AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > About > Press Kit > Screenshots > FAQ > List of Contributors > Community > IRC info > GNOME roadmap > Project of the Week > Developer Interviews > Mailing lists > Events > News > Development > Tutorials > Whitepapers > API Reference > CVS > Foundation > Charter > Meeting Minutes > Board Members > Advisory Board > Membership > Projects > Localization > UI Hitsquad > Sound > Documentation > Software > Application List > Bugzilla > Download I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" not being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick links". Hm. Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than my proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be improved further. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From cardinal@dodds.net Tue Dec 19 23:12:50 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from norad.dodds.net (norad.dodds.net [206.65.64.207]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08CED2BBB2 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:12:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by norad.dodds.net (Postfix, from userid 522) id 28921C200; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:12:49 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by norad.dodds.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 224C8C1FF; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:12:49 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:12:48 -0600 (CST) From: Matt McClanahan To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal In-Reply-To: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Tue, 19 Dec 2000, Joakim Ziegler wrote: > On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:38:28AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > > > About > > Press Kit > > Screenshots > > FAQ > > List of Contributors > > Community > > IRC info > > GNOME roadmap > > Project of the Week > > Developer Interviews > > Mailing lists > > Events > > News (snip) > > Software > > Application List > > Bugzilla > > Download > > I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" not > being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick links". Hm. > Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than my > proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be > improved further. I'd tend to agree on the News, but I've never seen downloads as being a 'primary' link off of the landing page. I suppose access logs could easilly prove me wrong, but putting it under software makes sense to me. Wouldn't there be a brief news summary on the landing page anyway, which could then provide the direct link to the news page? The press kit also seems something that would intuitively go in an 'About' section. On many corporate (Not intending to draw a parallel of course, just citing examples) sites I've seen, 'About' tends to be a single link from the landing page, which is then broken down into company info, investor relations, press kit, and whatever else. Matt From webmaven@lvcm.com Tue Dec 19 23:41:09 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams3.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.77]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 787502BBB2 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:41:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.231.69]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Tue, 19 Dec 2000 20:42:05 -0800 Message-ID: <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:50:49 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > [snip] > > I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" not > being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick links". Hm. > Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than my > proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be > improved further. This is quite a bit closer to a purely topical heirarchy, with action items (verbs) relegated to leaf nodes (except for quick links/in-line links). I would suggest further modifying the heirarchy by: - Moving the roadmap under the 'About' category - Creating 'GTK' and 'Gnome Desktop' sub headings under 'Software' - Moving the 'Development' category under 'Software' - Moving 'Projects' under either 'Software' or 'Community' This would leave us with four top level categories of content: * About GNOME * GNOME Community * GNOME Foundation * GNOME Software Which should be all encompassing, and fairly clear as to where to look to find what you want. With only four top level categories, these can be represented by a row of buttons across the top, and second and third level navigation can be accomplished with a right- or left-handed vertical bar. HTH, Michael Bernstein From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Tue Dec 19 23:53:57 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F6D52CE64 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:53:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148bH7-0000sh-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 05:54:50 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:50:07 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001219235007.H1013@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com>; from webmaven@lvcm.com on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:50:49PM -0800 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:50:49PM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: > Joakim Ziegler wrote: >> I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" not >> being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick links". Hm. >> Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than my >> proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be >> improved further. > This is quite a bit closer to a purely topical heirarchy, > with action items (verbs) relegated to leaf nodes (except > for quick links/in-line links). I would suggest further > modifying the heirarchy by: > - Moving the roadmap under the 'About' category > - Creating 'GTK' and 'Gnome Desktop' sub headings under > 'Software' > - Moving the 'Development' category under 'Software' > - Moving 'Projects' under either 'Software' or 'Community' > This would leave us with four top level categories of > content: > * About GNOME > * GNOME Community > * GNOME Foundation > * GNOME Software > Which should be all encompassing, and fairly clear as to > where to look to find what you want. With only four top > level categories, these can be represented by a row of > buttons across the top, and second and third level > navigation can be accomplished with a right- or left-handed > vertical bar. While nice in theory, I think this falls into the "too much abstraction" trap. Yes, it's a really nicely topical, logical hierarchy, but people expect stuff like "Development" to be a top level header. Remember, we're not aiming for the perfect categorization system here (Dewey Decimal works really well, but it's hell to navigate for people who don't know it), we're aiming for something that's optimal to use. That means as few clicks as possible to the stuff that people use the most. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From shax82@hotmail.com Wed Dec 20 01:39:38 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from hotmail.com (oe27.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.236.247]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B38F82BB41 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:39:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:39:37 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [148.246.89.138] From: "Felipe Contreras" To: "Gnome Web List" , "Joakim Ziegler" References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <20001219235007.H1013@helixcode.com> Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal: desktop.gnome.org Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:55:20 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Dec 2000 06:39:37.0066 (UTC) FILETIME=[9F1AACA0:01C06A4F] Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joakim Ziegler" Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal > On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:50:49PM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: > > Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > >> I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" not > >> being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick links". Hm. > >> Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than my > >> proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be > >> improved further. > > > This is quite a bit closer to a purely topical heirarchy, > > with action items (verbs) relegated to leaf nodes (except > > for quick links/in-line links). I would suggest further > > modifying the heirarchy by: > > > - Moving the roadmap under the 'About' category > > - Creating 'GTK' and 'Gnome Desktop' sub headings under > > 'Software' > > - Moving the 'Development' category under 'Software' > > - Moving 'Projects' under either 'Software' or 'Community' > > > This would leave us with four top level categories of > > content: > > > * About GNOME > > * GNOME Community > > * GNOME Foundation > > * GNOME Software > > > Which should be all encompassing, and fairly clear as to > > where to look to find what you want. With only four top > > level categories, these can be represented by a row of > > buttons across the top, and second and third level > > navigation can be accomplished with a right- or left-handed > > vertical bar. > > While nice in theory, I think this falls into the "too much abstraction" > trap. Yes, it's a really nicely topical, logical hierarchy, but people expect > stuff like "Development" to be a top level header. > > Remember, we're not aiming for the perfect categorization system here (Dewey > Decimal works really well, but it's hell to navigate for people who don't > know it), we're aiming for something that's optimal to use. That means as few > clicks as possible to the stuff that people use the most. I was just thinking... Ok, GNOME is more than the desktop, so let's supose that I'm a GNOME's desktop user, so it could be good, to let's say I can find everything I want in desktop.gnome.org or just let's keep clear in mind what "GNOME" is and how can it be divided. In fact honestly I thought it was just the desktop, so I think a positioning statement whould help a lot to decide wich whould be the final site's structure. From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Wed Dec 20 02:11:47 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57F5E2BB41 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:11:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id BAA62748 (8.9.1/50); Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:11:43 -0600 Message-Id: <200012200711.BAA62748@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal From: Ryan Muldoon To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 20 Dec 2000 11:12:47 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:38:28AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > > > About > > Press Kit > > Screenshots > > FAQ > > List of Contributors > > Community > > IRC info > > GNOME roadmap > > Project of the Week > > Developer Interviews > > Mailing lists > > Events > > News > > Development > > Tutorials > > Whitepapers > > API Reference > > CVS > > Foundation > > Charter > > Meeting Minutes > > Board Members > > Advisory Board > > Membership > > Projects > > Localization > > UI Hitsquad > > Sound > > Documentation > > Software > > Application List > > Bugzilla > > Download > > I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" not > being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick links". Hm. > Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than my > proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be > improved further. My rationale for your comments: Press: Press kit seems like it would be "about" GNOME, and I don't know how many subsections it would have, and if they really need to be quickly accessed in the general case. News: What does this really include other than Gnotices? I couldn't come up with anything, so if it were a category, it would be empty. Also, I would imagine that the front page will have news as well, anyway Download: It seems like a single action item, that I do with the category "software." Download has a download page...what else? Nonstandard GNOME software would have download links in the Application List, I'd imagine. I've been working on a quick mockup of a front page (without any graphics for now, as I really shouldn't be the one to make them) to test out some colors, and the navigation. I changed "IRC info" to "Support", which seemed to make more sense, as IRC is kind of specific. Support would have that information. Once I have a little more time to work with colors, I will post the mockup for general critique. It certainly isn't meant to express the final look of the site - its point is to address whether the colors we are thinking about and the navigation structure is usable. --Ryan From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Wed Dec 20 02:16:10 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 112A72BB41 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:16:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id BAA171370 (8.9.1/50); Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:15:46 -0600 Message-Id: <200012200715.BAA171370@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal From: Ryan Muldoon To: Michael Bernstein Cc: Joakim Ziegler , gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 20 Dec 2000 11:16:51 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > > > [snip] > > > > I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" not > > being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick links". Hm. > > Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than my > > proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be > > improved further. > > This is quite a bit closer to a purely topical heirarchy, > with action items (verbs) relegated to leaf nodes (except > for quick links/in-line links). I would suggest further > modifying the heirarchy by: > > - Moving the roadmap under the 'About' category > Why? It seems like the roadmap would be for the community. > - Creating 'GTK' and 'Gnome Desktop' sub headings under > 'Software' > I think part of the point is that we want to integrate GTK stuff with GNOME stuff, not separate them out. We want to push the GNOME platform. > - Moving the 'Development' category under 'Software' > This is definitely wrong.....people look for Development information. There is a lot of it. It should be in a section by itself. > - Moving 'Projects' under either 'Software' or 'Community' > Projects are pretty big by themselves.....they should have their own section. > This would leave us with four top level categories of > content: > > * About GNOME > > * GNOME Community > > * GNOME Foundation > > * GNOME Software > > Which should be all encompassing, and fairly clear as to > where to look to find what you want. With only four top > level categories, these can be represented by a row of > buttons across the top, and second and third level > navigation can be accomplished with a right- or left-handed > vertical bar. > I agree with Joakim here - this is too much simplification. We want to be able to get at information without too many clicks. I cut down from the initial 10 because that seemed like too many categories, and it wasn't easy to quickly understand. With too few categories, you run into the same problem. --Ryan From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Wed Dec 20 02:34:08 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65CD92CCF3 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:33:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id BAA57916 (8.9.1/50); Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:33:10 -0600 Message-Id: <200012200733.BAA57916@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Really Quick Mockup From: Ryan Muldoon To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <200012200715.BAA171370@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <200012200715.BAA171370@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 20 Dec 2000 11:34:15 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work I have put up a mockup (heavily based on digitect's most recent mockup) of what I've been thinking about for how Navigation could work, and colors. What I would like to do, but don't have the time to do at the moment, is come up with a main color for each of the sections, and use that for the background color of the section heading. Ideally, all of these would come from Joakim's color comp, as the first two colors did. I really liked the grey text that digitect started with. I darkened the link color a bit, and did some other minor touchups. As I said before, this is for testing colors, fonts, and navigation. I'd like to leave the real templates to the artists of the group, as I'm definitely not one of them. I apologize for not putting up a completed mockup, but I am going home for the holidays tomorrow, so I figured that I would put something up for people to look at, rather than wait. Release early, release often, as I recall. http://www.illuminagraphic.com/dev/gnome/ --Ryan From michel@expocentro.com Wed Dec 20 07:20:27 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from barney.springfield (barney.ipsa.com.ar [200.47.2.9]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5613F2D399 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 07:20:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.springfield (milhouse.springfield [172.16.20.39]) by barney.springfield (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA96755 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:19:54 -0300 (ART) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:19:28 -0300 From: Michel Martens To: Gnome Web List Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: ; from cardinal@dodds.net on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:12:48 -0300 X-Mailer: Balsa 1.0.0 Lines: 29 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On 2000.12.20 01:12:48 -0300 Matt McClanahan wrote: > > I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" > not > > being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick > links". Hm. > > Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than > my > > proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be > > improved further. > > I'd tend to agree on the News, but I've never seen downloads as being a > 'primary' link off of the landing page. I suppose access logs could > easilly prove me wrong, but putting it under software makes sense to me. > Wouldn't there be a brief news summary on the landing page anyway, which > could then provide the direct link to the news page? Couldn't we get access to the logs of www.gnome.org? I think it could be a good starting point to see what are the visitors requesting. That will give us the big picture of what is important for the users and will give us a good idea of how we could arrange the site's navigation structure to meet their requirements. Michel. From digitect@mindspring.com Wed Dec 20 08:01:11 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from maynard.mail.mindspring.net (maynard.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.243]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEFD32BF58 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 08:01:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf2uq.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.139.218]) by maynard.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA12817 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 08:01:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <009501c06a84$ec48df80$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> Subject: Re: GNOME colors Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 08:01:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work I'm going to start trying to put some themed color compositions together towards the end of the week so we can visualize how this (my palette) might work across the many sub-sites. I won't specify which is intended for which area so that you can read into them what you want. I realize that the color palettes Joakim and I posted are pretty abstract and are hard to visualize. But it's going to take some time to think through each sub-site's composition for mockups. Mine will be basic blocks of color in the proportion and shape that we might use them, at 50% scale. It will help us to discuss color composition and their possibilities without actually designing the pages. I have been keeping up with all the comps that everyone has submitted to date (I think) so that I don't have to go back through the emails. They're at http://www.mindspring.com/~digitect/gnome/ if you're interested. I've also posted a revised color comp (Steve Hall 02) here that is probably a little more balanced and expressive of my neutral idea. Are there any other color palette proposals? We're going to need to start moving on this soon if we are ever to get through actual page design. Even though we've made some good progress on discussing color and structure, I'm anticipating that marrying these two will be quite the main event. Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From webmaven@lvcm.com Wed Dec 20 10:43:40 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams4.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.78]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DCE22BB74 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:43:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.231.69]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Wed, 20 Dec 2000 07:45:22 -0800 Message-ID: <3A40F218.A3A42DD1@lvcm.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:53:28 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <20001219235007.H1013@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:50:49PM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: > > > > This would leave us with four top level categories of > > content: > > > * About GNOME > > * GNOME Community > > * GNOME Foundation > > * GNOME Software > > > Which should be all encompassing, and fairly clear as to > > where to look to find what you want. With only four top > > level categories, these can be represented by a row of > > buttons across the top, and second and third level > > navigation can be accomplished with a right- or left-handed > > vertical bar. > > While nice in theory, I think this falls into the "too much abstraction" > trap. Yes, it's a really nicely topical, logical hierarchy, but people expect > stuff like "Development" to be a top level header. I disagree. I think it's worth not creating a mixed noun/verb categorization schema, and you'll actually confuse people more if you don't excersize retsraint in this regard. If I'm looking for documentation, do I find it under 'Software' or under 'Development'? > Remember, we're not aiming for the perfect categorization system here (Dewey > Decimal works really well, but it's hell to navigate for people who don't > know it), we're aiming for something that's optimal to use. That means as few > clicks as possible to the stuff that people use the most. That comparison's a bit unfair. Dewey decimal attempts to categorize all human knowledge, We're just trying to categorize all of GNOME. And as far as the 'few clicks as possible' goes, you've already noted that quick links and in-line text links can give access to items deep within the heirarchy. Also, keep in mind that one of the goals of your categorization schema should be maintainability. If you come up with new content, it should be immediately obvious and crystal clear which topic it falls under, and if you're creating a new category in the future, it should be immediately obvious whether it's a sub-category of an existing topic, of if it's a new top-level category. If you feel that more top level navigation items are needed, I'll happily go along with that, but they need to be logically distinct, not just re-parented branches. It's better to have more than one categorization schema (as I've suggested before), having a separate navigation device for each, than to create mixed and hybrid schemas. So if you want to ceate a second navigation device indicating the audience, for example, that would work just fine (clicking on the 'developer' item on the second bar could bring you to a page of quick developer links) and allow people to find what they're looking for in the way that they're most comfortable. HTH, Michael Bernstein. From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Wed Dec 20 11:01:36 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DB122CDC3 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:01:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148lhH-0004zZ-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:02:32 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:57:44 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001220105744.I1013@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <200012200711.BAA62748@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012200711.BAA62748@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 11:12:47AM +0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 11:12:47AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: >> On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:38:28AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: >>> About >>> Press Kit >>> Screenshots >>> FAQ >>> List of Contributors >>> Community >>> IRC info >>> GNOME roadmap >>> Project of the Week >>> Developer Interviews >>> Mailing lists >>> Events >>> News >>> Development >>> Tutorials >>> Whitepapers >>> API Reference >>> CVS >>> Foundation >>> Charter >>> Meeting Minutes >>> Board Members >>> Advisory Board >>> Membership >>> Projects >>> Localization >>> UI Hitsquad >>> Sound >>> Documentation >>> Software >>> Application List >>> Bugzilla >>> Download >> I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" not >> being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick links". Hm. >> Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than my >> proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be >> improved further. > My rationale for your comments: > Press: Press kit seems like it would be "about" GNOME, and I don't know how > many subsections it would have, and if they really need to be quickly accessed > in the general case. Yes, it would be "about" GNOME, and it probably wouldn't have many subsections (contacts, press kit, and some link page, perhaps). My main concern is not from a logical hierarchy point of view, I'm more concerned with people immideately finding what they're looking for. I think members of the press would like to have an immediately visible "Press" link. It *could* be a quick link, granted. > News: What does this really include other than Gnotices? I couldn't come up > with anything, so if it were a category, it would be empty. Also, I would > imagine that the front page will have news as well, anyway Well, Gnotices isn't just one page, it's a whole hierarchy in itself. The front page, the individual stories, and the comments to the stories, the page to submit new stories, not to mention the "More stories by this author" and other meta-functionality. Of the three things I've mentioned here, Gnotices is the one I'm the most sure should be a top level item. > Download: It seems like a single action item, that I do with the category > "software." Download has a download page...what else? Nonstandard GNOME > software would have download links in the Application List, I'd imagine. The main reason for this would be to make it very accessible. However, I suppose Software-Download is dead intuitive, so that would be ok. I agree with this one. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Wed Dec 20 11:16:53 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 451392C906 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:16:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148lw8-00061T-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:17:52 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:13:07 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001220111307.J1013@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <20001219235007.H1013@helixcode.com> <3A40F218.A3A42DD1@lvcm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A40F218.A3A42DD1@lvcm.com>; from webmaven@lvcm.com on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:53:28AM -0800 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:53:28AM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: > Joakim Ziegler wrote: >> On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:50:49PM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: >>> This would leave us with four top level categories of >>> content: >>> * About GNOME >>> * GNOME Community >>> * GNOME Foundation >>> * GNOME Software >>> Which should be all encompassing, and fairly clear as to >>> where to look to find what you want. With only four top >>> level categories, these can be represented by a row of >>> buttons across the top, and second and third level >>> navigation can be accomplished with a right- or left-handed >>> vertical bar. >> While nice in theory, I think this falls into the "too much abstraction" >> trap. Yes, it's a really nicely topical, logical hierarchy, but people expect >> stuff like "Development" to be a top level header. > I disagree. I think it's worth not creating a mixed > noun/verb categorization schema, and you'll actually confuse > people more if you don't excersize retsraint in this regard. > If I'm looking for documentation, do I find it under > 'Software' or under 'Development'? I've never heard of cases where a "mixed noun/verb categorization schema" has ever led to problems. Indeed, the stilted terms or overly broad/narrow ctegories you create by trying to stick to one would likely be a bigger problem. Remember, even extremely usability tested software, such as everything coming out of Apple, has top-level menu items like "File", "Edit", "Tools" and "Window". >> Remember, we're not aiming for the perfect categorization system here (Dewey >> Decimal works really well, but it's hell to navigate for people who don't >> know it), we're aiming for something that's optimal to use. That means as few >> clicks as possible to the stuff that people use the most. > That comparison's a bit unfair. Dewey decimal attempts to > categorize all human knowledge, We're just trying to > categorize all of GNOME. And as far as the 'few clicks as > possible' goes, you've already noted that quick links and > in-line text links can give access to items deep within the > heirarchy. > Also, keep in mind that one of the goals of your > categorization schema should be maintainability. If you come > up with new content, it should be immediately obvious and > crystal clear which topic it falls under, and if you're > creating a new category in the future, it should be > immediately obvious whether it's a sub-category of an > existing topic, of if it's a new top-level category. This isn't going to happen. No matter how perfect your categorization schema, there will always be data that doesn't fit. In your four top level categories, you might have avoided this problem on the top level, because the categories are so vague, but it'll just come back to haunt you on the level below. Given a reasonablys malls et of data, like we have, you're not going o be able to construct a balanced and symmetrical category tree, because you can't specialize enough without ending up with just one or two documents in each category. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From mark@websidestory.com Wed Dec 20 12:00:30 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.websidestory.com (mail1.websidestory.com [208.232.223.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E17BA2DEE1 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:00:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from websidestory.com (pip-1.hitbox.com [209.75.20.72]) by mail1.websidestory.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id eBKH0SE07649 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:00:29 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A40E6D3.F689CDC3@websidestory.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:05:23 -0800 From: Mark Koopman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <20001219235007.H1013@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > Remember, we're not aiming for the perfect categorization system here (Dewey > Decimal works really well, but it's hell to navigate for people who don't > know it), we're aiming for something that's optimal to use. That means as few > clicks as possible to the stuff that people use the most. > what DO people use most? and how do you know? web analytics or gut-feeling? #!/usr/local/bin/perl # Mark Koopman - mark@websidestory.com # Software Engineer # # WebSideStory, Inc # # 10182 Telesis Court # San Diego CA 92121 # 858.546.1182.##.318 # 858.546.0480.fax eval(lc(join('', map ({chr}(q( 49877273766940 80827378843973 32767986693280 69827639463932 39883673434341 ))=~/../g)))); From mark@websidestory.com Wed Dec 20 12:20:31 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.websidestory.com (mail1.websidestory.com [208.232.223.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 339622DEF6 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:20:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from websidestory.com (pip-1.hitbox.com [209.75.20.72]) by mail1.websidestory.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id eBKHKUE08919 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:20:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A40EB82.8927DDD3@websidestory.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:25:22 -0800 From: Mark Koopman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gnome Web List Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Michel Martens wrote: > Couldn't we get access to the logs of www.gnome.org? I think it could be a > good starting point to see what are the visitors requesting. That will give > us the big picture of what is important for the users and will give us a > good idea of how we could arrange the site's navigation structure to meet > their requirements. > > Michel. and for the new site, (this might sound a bit egotistic), i recommend we install a HitBox counter, get.hitbox.com. It's put out by the company i work for, WebSideStory. the counter is trivial to integrate into a site and provides 24-7 real-time stats. hey, i think we have site analysis down pat. it's worth a thought and if anyone gives this more serious consideration, i'll see what i can do as far as having an Account donated to the project. email me if you want to know more about HitBox site analysis #!/usr/local/bin/perl # Mark Koopman - mark@websidestory.com # Software Engineer # # WebSideStory, Inc # # 10182 Telesis Court # San Diego CA 92121 # 858.546.1182.##.318 # 858.546.0480.fax eval(lc(join('', map ({chr}(q( 49877273766940 80827378843973 32767986693280 69827639463932 39883673434341 ))=~/../g)))); From mark@websidestory.com Wed Dec 20 12:29:39 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.websidestory.com (mail1.websidestory.com [208.232.223.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38CED2DEEA for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:29:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from websidestory.com (pip-1.hitbox.com [209.75.20.72]) by mail1.websidestory.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id eBKHTbE09625 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:29:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A40EDA8.3BF462DA@websidestory.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:34:32 -0800 From: Mark Koopman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Site Analysis Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > I haven't looked at statistics for www.gnome.org for a while. There were > (non-public) usage stats for www.gnome.org when it was hosted on the old > server, though, up until a few months ago. > > It's not really necessary to use stats to figure out what people use the > most, or rather, what we'd like them to use most, and what is most useful. > News.gnome.org, for instance, is clearly popular, just judging from the > number of comments each story gets (compared to Slashdot, we're doing really > well, actually). And it should be no surprise to anyone that people want to > find out what GNOME is, and then find out how to get it. > Here's a scenario: We feel popularity of GNOME is increasing, more discussion threads are seen on the site...but are people actually downloading any software? how can you tell? no one person can read all discussion threads to see what's hot/what's not, and then accurately alter a site's navigation/content to stir up some better usability of a site. HitBox offers path-tracking that can give you a good view at how people are clicking around your site. it's an accurate measure of how many pages people are viewing per visit, and if your traffic comes from Bookmarks, or Search Engines. i'm suggesting a HitBox because some discussions have entertained more of a marketing effort, and our HitBox site analysis suits a majority of our marketing efforts within our company. just a suggestion, dont mean to be harping on ya if i sound that way. -- #!/usr/local/bin/perl # Mark Koopman - mark@websidestory.com # Software Engineer # # WebSideStory, Inc # # 10182 Telesis Court # San Diego CA 92121 # 858.546.1182.##.318 # 858.546.0480.fax eval(lc(join('', map ({chr}(q( 49877273766940 80827378843973 32767986693280 69827639463932 39883673434341 ))=~/../g)))); From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Wed Dec 20 12:32:41 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37F642DEEA for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:32:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148n7T-0002o0-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 18:33:39 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:28:53 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: Gnome Web List Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001220122853.O1013@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: Gnome Web List References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> <3A40EB82.8927DDD3@websidestory.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A40EB82.8927DDD3@websidestory.com>; from mark@websidestory.com on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:25:22AM -0800 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:25:22AM -0800, Mark Koopman wrote: > Michel Martens wrote: >> Couldn't we get access to the logs of www.gnome.org? I think it could be a >> good starting point to see what are the visitors requesting. That will give >> us the big picture of what is important for the users and will give us a >> good idea of how we could arrange the site's navigation structure to meet >> their requirements. > and for the new site, (this might sound a bit egotistic), i recommend we > install a HitBox counter, get.hitbox.com. It's put out by the company > i > work for, WebSideStory. the counter is trivial to integrate into a site > and provides 24-7 real-time stats. hey, i think we have site analysis > down > pat. it's worth a thought and if anyone gives this more serious > consideration, > i'll see what i can do as far as having an Account donated to the > project. For the GNOME site to use a proprietary system like this, even if the license was "donated" to the site, would be completely and utterly unthinkable. Free your software, then we can talk. I can't see how this is much more useful than webalizer anyway. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From thom@planetarytramp.net Wed Dec 20 12:38:19 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from proxy.jakinternet.co.uk (proxy.jakinternet.co.uk [212.187.250.66]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A35ED2BD56 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:38:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.jakinternet.co.uk (smtp.jakinternet.co.uk [212.187.250.72]) by proxy.jakinternet.co.uk (Postfix) with SMTP id CA814A7700 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 18:34:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from emancipation.planetarytramp.net ([194.88.79.192]) by smtp.jakinternet.co.uk ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:37:59 -0000 Received: by emancipation.planetarytramp.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 215A11AE5E; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:37:55 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:37:55 +0000 From: Thom May To: Michel Martens , gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001220173754.E24093@emancipation> Mail-Followup-To: Michel Martens , gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="wtjvnLv0o8UUzur2" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield>; from michel@expocentro.com on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:19:28AM -0300 X-Operating-System: Linux/2.2.17-ide (i686) Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work --wtjvnLv0o8UUzur2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Michel, Owen posted a link to the logs for most of the gnome machines; this is a link to the mail archive of that post: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-web-list/2000-November/msg00087.html HTH -Thom * Michel Martens (michel@expocentro.com) wrote : > >=20 > Couldn't we get access to the logs of www.gnome.org? I think it could be a > good starting point to see what are the visitors requesting. That will gi= ve > us the big picture of what is important for the users and will give us a > good idea of how we could arrange the site's navigation structure to meet > their requirements. >=20 > Michel. >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > gnome-web-list mailing list > gnome-web-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-web-list --wtjvnLv0o8UUzur2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjpA7nIACgkQs10SPRMEYVXwaQCfRLQKq4tVTqlz9HpIDPDjSZMk ZvAAnjxukWUHFXQ/Ae0/8TDBgpqUf895 =97Vx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --wtjvnLv0o8UUzur2-- From mark@websidestory.com Wed Dec 20 12:55:21 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.websidestory.com (mail1.websidestory.com [208.232.223.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F09C2DF2F for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:55:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from websidestory.com (pip-1.hitbox.com [209.75.20.72]) by mail1.websidestory.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id eBKHtKE11462 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:55:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A40F3AF.4F722EFB@websidestory.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:00:15 -0800 From: Mark Koopman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> <20001220173754.E24093@emancipation> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Thom May wrote: > > Hi Michel, > Owen posted a link to the logs for most of the gnome machines; > this is a link to the mail archive of that post: > > http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-web-list/2000-November/msg00087.html > Logs show this: Program started at Wed-20-Dec-2000 00:00. Analysed requests from Tue-31-Dec-1996 19:15 to Wed-20-Dec-2000 00:00 (1449.2 days). Directory Report #reqs: pages: directory --------: -------: --------- 71622830: 190: /images/ 2102723: 1348900: [root directory] 1324279: 604703: /applist/ 228694: 120716: /gnome-office/ 200024: 196679: /start/ 95088: 95087: /faqs/ 76820: 62083: /projects/ 51062: 51062: /resources/ 33919: 33919: /learn/ 31242: 31242: /intro/ 28839: 355: http:// 27877: 13600: /todo/ 15071: 12501: /~michael/ 7892: 7103: /~drc/ 7207: 7204: /i18n/ 5723: 5016: /developerinterviews/ 5158: 4907: /cgi-bin/ 4200: 4200: /developers/ 3037: 2474: /~ole/ 1111: 698: /~sopwith/ 890: 161: /~cgabriel/ 784: 540: /~chrisime/ 551: 1: [no directory] 220: 146: /~msw/ 180: 163: /ftp/ http://??? what is that? only 180 ftp requests....do we feel that's an accurate number of ftp requests made in approx 4 years? i dont think so, or else we're looking at the wrong server logs. HitBox has the benefit of being server-independent and one Account code could analyze any number of servers. #!/usr/local/bin/perl # Mark Koopman - mark@websidestory.com # Software Engineer # # WebSideStory, Inc # # 10182 Telesis Court # San Diego CA 92121 # 858.546.1182.##.318 # 858.546.0480.fax eval(lc(join('', map ({chr}(q( 49877273766940 80827378843973 32767986693280 69827639463932 39883673434341 ))=~/../g)))); From gleblanc@cu-portland.edu Wed Dec 20 12:59:51 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from email.cu-portland.edu (unknown [207.149.56.67]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE6AB2DF03 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:59:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from grego1.cu-portland.edu (207.149.56.153 [207.149.56.153]) by email.cu-portland.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id XNSRM085; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:59:49 -0800 Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal From: Gregory Leblanc To: Gnome Web List In-Reply-To: <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.8 (Developer Preview) Date: 20 Dec 2000 10:00:17 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20001220175950.DE6AB2DF03@mail.gnome.org> Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On 20 Dec 2000 09:19:28 -0300, Michel Martens wrote: > > On 2000.12.20 01:12:48 -0300 Matt McClanahan wrote: > > > > > > I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" > > not > > > being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick > > links". Hm. > > > Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than > > my > > > proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be > > > improved further. > > > > I'd tend to agree on the News, but I've never seen downloads as being a > > 'primary' link off of the landing page. I suppose access logs could > > easilly prove me wrong, but putting it under software makes sense to me. > > Wouldn't there be a brief news summary on the landing page anyway, which > > could then provide the direct link to the news page? > > > > Couldn't we get access to the logs of www.gnome.org? I think it could be a > good starting point to see what are the visitors requesting. That will give > us the big picture of what is important for the users and will give us a > good idea of how we could arrange the site's navigation structure to meet > their requirements. Hey, don't you read the list? :) Owen posted this stuff a while ago, you can get his message at http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-web-list/2000-November/msg00087.html Greg From thom@planetarytramp.net Wed Dec 20 13:18:50 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from proxy.jakinternet.co.uk (proxy.jakinternet.co.uk [212.187.250.66]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B98262CB76 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:18:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.jakinternet.co.uk (smtp.jakinternet.co.uk [212.187.250.72]) by proxy.jakinternet.co.uk (Postfix) with SMTP id BFF8CA7934 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:15:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from emancipation.planetarytramp.net ([194.88.79.192]) by smtp.jakinternet.co.uk ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 18:17:59 -0000 Received: by emancipation.planetarytramp.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 259751AE5E; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 18:17:56 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 18:17:56 +0000 From: Thom May To: Mark Koopman , gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001220181755.F24093@emancipation> Mail-Followup-To: Mark Koopman , gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> <20001220173754.E24093@emancipation> <3A40F3AF.4F722EFB@websidestory.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="w2JjAQZceEVGylhD" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3A40F3AF.4F722EFB@websidestory.com>; from mark@websidestory.com on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 10:00:15AM -0800 X-Operating-System: Linux/2.2.17-ide (i686) Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work --w2JjAQZceEVGylhD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * Mark Koopman (mark@websidestory.com) wrote : (loads of advertising) Mark,=20 I appreciate your enthusiasm for you product, and can understand it! I know i get excited when th company I work for releases a great product. However, it is _not_ appropriate to use a list in this manner for advertising a product, nor is it possible for Gnome to _ever_ use a proprietary product such as yours, until or unless it is released with a DFSG compatible license (I'm using DFSG as it's the best generic OSS definition, I think, see http://www.debian.org/social_contract ) cheers -Thom --w2JjAQZceEVGylhD Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjpA99MACgkQs10SPRMEYVVkowCeIb5S6hUj0BxM8N0kycGghIsz RrEAnA4CWb9o6L0q498U12MYhGKZL297 =QhdJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --w2JjAQZceEVGylhD-- From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Wed Dec 20 13:23:42 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52DA42DF40 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:20:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148ns1-0002WZ-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:21:46 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:16:57 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001220131657.Q1013@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> <20001220173754.E24093@emancipation> <3A40F3AF.4F722EFB@websidestory.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A40F3AF.4F722EFB@websidestory.com>; from mark@websidestory.com on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 10:00:15AM -0800 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 10:00:15AM -0800, Mark Koopman wrote: > Thom May wrote: > http://??? what is that? Most likely a malformed request of some sort. > only 180 ftp requests....do we feel that's an accurate number > of ftp requests made in approx 4 years? i dont think so, or else > we're looking at the wrong server logs. Since these are the HTTP server logs, I'm not surprised. > HitBox has the benefit > of being server-independent and one Account code could analyze > any number of servers. Please stop shamelessly promoting your proprietary software on this list. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From mark@websidestory.com Wed Dec 20 13:25:00 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.websidestory.com (mail1.websidestory.com [208.232.223.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC3F02BB09 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:24:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from websidestory.com (pip-1.hitbox.com [209.75.20.72]) by mail1.websidestory.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id eBKIOxE13824 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:24:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A40FAA2.138CDE25@websidestory.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:29:54 -0800 From: Mark Koopman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> <20001220173754.E24093@emancipation> <3A40F3AF.4F722EFB@websidestory.com> <20001220181755.F24093@emancipation> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Thom May wrote: > > * Mark Koopman (mark@websidestory.com) wrote : > (loads of advertising) > Mark, > I appreciate your enthusiasm for you product, and can understand > it! I know i get excited when th company I work for releases a > great product. > However, it is _not_ appropriate to use a list in this manner > for advertising a product, nor is it possible for Gnome to > _ever_ use a proprietary product such as yours, until or unless > it is released with a DFSG compatible license (I'm using DFSG as it's > the best generic OSS definition, I think, see > http://www.debian.org/social_contract ) > cheers > -Thom > that's fine, i understand. i was offering a free version of the product, but that wasn't so clearly stated by myself from the beginning. keep on truckin' -- #!/usr/local/bin/perl # Mark Koopman - mark@websidestory.com # Software Engineer # # WebSideStory, Inc # # 10182 Telesis Court # San Diego CA 92121 # 858.546.1182.##.318 # 858.546.0480.fax eval(lc(join('', map ({chr}(q( 49877273766940 80827378843973 32767986693280 69827639463932 39883673434341 ))=~/../g)))); From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Wed Dec 20 13:44:36 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 565952BB01 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:44:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148oF5-0004bR-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:45:35 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:40:48 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001220134048.T1013@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> <20001220173754.E24093@emancipation> <3A40F3AF.4F722EFB@websidestory.com> <20001220181755.F24093@emancipation> <3A40FAA2.138CDE25@websidestory.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A40FAA2.138CDE25@websidestory.com>; from mark@websidestory.com on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 10:29:54AM -0800 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 10:29:54AM -0800, Mark Koopman wrote: > Thom May wrote: >> * Mark Koopman (mark@websidestory.com) wrote : >> (loads of advertising) >> Mark, >> I appreciate your enthusiasm for you product, and can understand >> it! I know i get excited when th company I work for releases a >> great product. >> However, it is _not_ appropriate to use a list in this manner >> for advertising a product, nor is it possible for Gnome to >> _ever_ use a proprietary product such as yours, until or unless >> it is released with a DFSG compatible license (I'm using DFSG as it's >> the best generic OSS definition, I think, see >> http://www.debian.org/social_contract ) >> cheers > that's fine, i understand. i was offering a free version of the > product, but that wasn't so clearly stated by myself from the beginning. Free software is not a matter of price, but of freedom. That is, you would have to release source under a DFSG-compliant license for it to be considered free software. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From digitect@mindspring.com Wed Dec 20 20:34:09 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from hall.mail.mindspring.net (hall.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.60]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 589E72D26E for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 20:34:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf2sp.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.139.153]) by hall.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA22238 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 20:34:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <002e01c06aee$1d6828a0$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: Subject: Fw: Really Quick Mockup Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 20:34:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Oops. Meant to send this to the list, too. From: "digitect" To: "Ryan Muldoon" Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 7:40 AM Subject: Re: Really Quick Mockup Some general comments about Ryan's structure and the discussion in general... ____________________________________________________________ Ryan Muldoon's structure A B O U T ScreenShots Press Kit FAQ Contributors C O M M U N I T Y Support GNOME Roadmap Project of the Week Developer Interviews Mailing Lists Events News D E V E L O P M E N T Tutorials Whitepapers API Reference CVS F O U N D A T I O N Charter Meeting Minutes Board Members Adisory Board Membership P R O J E C T S Localization Documentation UI Improvement Icons Sound S O F T W A R E Application List Bugzilla Download ____________________________________________________________ 1. "Download" is a snare. It means two different things. For the user, Download means "Get It". For the developer, Download means "Here's a new version of an app you can try". We need to have some sort of "Get the Whole Core" place for users with easy instructions and HowTos for newbies. I think our current Download section is much more suited to the developer. I definitely agree with the current direction we're headed for a clear outline structure with quick link/headline shortcuts into the structure from the front page or other. The entire content needs to be organized in a clear structural format, but we'll always need to jump across it. (After all, this is why Al Gore invented they hyperlink.) So in regards to my Download dilema above, maybe we're just talking about creating a quick link to a new user section of downloads from the front page. 2. To me, in the structure above, "Foundation" seems to have a disproportionate share of visual realestate. I think I'd prefer to see it as a single jump from Community or About. I realize that they're important, but I'm guessing that very few visitors will want to use this section. The few important ones that do, can easily be transported to a whole corporate section of the site. (I'd also suggest making a History section so that folks can read up on the history of GNOME and be pointed to a history of GNU, and possibly Linux/BSD/Unix.) Otherwise this is a great structure and I vote we stop suggesting new ones and just develop this one. (Not that development alone won't turn it on its head.) I think we need to develop this by now trying to describe the third tier of areas and really try to be exhaustive with all the content we know about (like project for example). I'm sure we're going to find at least one major adjustment that needs to be made. (And BTW, I might suggest that we do this in HTML, or at least post a "latest copy" so that we don't all get confused.) Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From webmaven@lvcm.com Wed Dec 20 22:22:22 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams4.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.78]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 435312C10B for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:22:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.231.69]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:23:47 -0800 Message-ID: <3A4195CC.80CF85C@lvcm.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:31:56 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <20001219235007.H1013@helixcode.com> <3A40F218.A3A42DD1@lvcm.com> <20001220111307.J1013@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:53:28AM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: > > Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > > > > > While nice in theory, I think this falls into the "too much abstraction" > > > trap. Yes, it's a really nicely topical, logical hierarchy, but people expect > > > stuff like "Development" to be a top level header. > > > > I disagree. I think it's worth not creating a mixed > > noun/verb categorization schema, and you'll actually confuse > > people more if you don't excersize retsraint in this regard. > > If I'm looking for documentation, do I find it under > > 'Software' or under 'Development'? > > I've never heard of cases where a "mixed noun/verb categorization schema" has > ever led to problems. Indeed, the stilted terms or overly broad/narrow > ctegories you create by trying to stick to one would likely be a bigger > problem. Sorry, noun/verb is my own terminology. Topical vs. functional, or subject-oriented vs. task-oriented would be the more usual way to describe it, I suppose. Have you read 'Information Architecture for the World Wide Web' by Louis Rosenfeld and Peter Moreville? Chapter 3 deals with this specific issue of organization schemas, and the point is made that hybrid schemas are more confusing because it's impossible to form a mental model of the site. The book is published by O'Reilly, and I can reccomend it unconditionally to anyone who designs websites. Here is are two small (relevant) quotes: "The power of a pure organization scheme derives from it's ability to suggest a simple mental model for users to quickly understand. Users easily recognize an audience specific or topical organization. However, when you start blending elements of multiple schemes, confusion is almost guaranteed." "Hybrid Schemas are common on the web. This happens because it is often dificult to agree upon any one scheme to present on the main page, so people throw the elements of multiple schemes together in a confusing mix. There is a better alternative. In cases where multiple schemes must be presented on one page, you should communicate to designers the importance of retaining the integrity of each scheme. As long as the schemes are presented separately on the page, they retain the powerful ability to suggest a mental model for users." > Remember, even extremely usability tested software, such as > everything coming out of Apple, has top-level menu items like "File", "Edit", > "Tools" and "Window". You've made the point yourself that the website shouldn't emulate the desktop, but I'll still point out that websites are primarily comprised of content, whereas desktop applications are primarily tools for content creation and manipulation. You are correct that mixing schemas in menus are not much of a usability problem *once you've learned the platforms' conventions*. Users will not be willing to spend as much time learning the structure of your site as they have been willing to learn the conventions of their chosen desktop environment. > > Also, keep in mind that one of the goals of your > > categorization schema should be maintainability. If you come > > up with new content, it should be immediately obvious and > > crystal clear which topic it falls under, and if you're > > creating a new category in the future, it should be > > immediately obvious whether it's a sub-category of an > > existing topic, of if it's a new top-level category. > > This isn't going to happen. No matter how perfect your categorization schema, > there will always be data that doesn't fit. Of course. But it will be immediately obvious when it doesn't fit and you must simply decide whether it requires a new sub-category or a new top level category, which is vastly preferable to a situation arising where you're unsure where to place a new document. If I want to create downloadable printable manuals, do I put a download category in 'Documentation', or a printable documentation category in 'Download'? If you have a topical heirarchy it's obvious that you need a 'Download this document in a printable format' task oriented link from each relevant page, so the problem never arises. Now, if you want to have a separate navigation device on the front page that contains links to the most common tasks, the problem is solved. you can dedicate screen real-estate to those tasks without polluting a topical heirarchy with task oriented top level items. So you can have a task-oriented quick link to 'download all documentation in a printable format' that is not part of the main navigation. With a completely database-driven site architecture, maintaining multiple site navigation schemas is not any more of a problem than maintaining one. All you have to do is make sure that content is tagged with the appropriate meta-information when it is added, according to whatever (and however many) schemas you want, and navigation options can be dynamically generated based on this information. > In your four top level > categories, you might have avoided this problem on the top level, because the > categories are so vague, but it'll just come back to haunt you on the level > below. I don't think that the categories I've defined are vague. They are broad, true, but they are also mutually exclusive. On the contrary, vagueness comes from having categories that overlap to a significant degree, which is exactly what I'm trying to avoid. Now, it is true that more than four top level categories are desireable, and I'm certainly open to suggestions of content that does not fit into the divisions that I've proposed, But given the content that's been suggested so far, I don't see where any additional top level *topical* categories are possible. > Given a reasonablys malls et of data, like we have, you're not going o > be able to construct a balanced and symmetrical category tree, because you > can't specialize enough without ending up with just one or two documents in > each category. The sub-categorization does not have to be as deep in all places on the tree. If a site section does not have enough content to warant further sub-categorization, then it doesn't, and shouldn't be. Cheers, Michael Bernstein. From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Wed Dec 20 22:57:53 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D366A2BB13 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:57:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148wsa-0003fS-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 04:58:57 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:54:09 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001220225409.A1013@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <20001219235007.H1013@helixcode.com> <3A40F218.A3A42DD1@lvcm.com> <20001220111307.J1013@helixcode.com> <3A4195CC.80CF85C@lvcm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A4195CC.80CF85C@lvcm.com>; from webmaven@lvcm.com on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:31:56PM -0800 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:31:56PM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: This is getting very, very long, so I'm going to just cut and summarize/answer. Basically, there are two separate issues here, which I think we're confusing a little. First of all, there's the discussion of whether or not we should use a hybrid task/category scheme, or a pure scheme. Secondly, there's the issue of four top-level categories being too few, in my opinion. Now, for the hybrid versus pure issue, sure, it's fine to have a pure schema, if it's possible, and doesn't deform an otherwise logical tree. For instance, you've created four top level categories which seem to be able to hold all the information we have on the site. But is it possible to continue with a pure schema on the second level of navigation? How deep will the tree be with this method versus a hybrid schema? How wide? I'd argue that particularly since hybrid schemas are so common on the web, people are used to them, and don't have to expel much mental effort to figure them out. As a thought experiment, take your four categories and turn two of them into tasks (pretty easy, just put a verb in front of the noun, like "Learn about the GNOME Foundation"). It's not much harder to figure out (ignoring that the label is long and unwieldy). It seems to me that the usability difference is vastly larger from adjusting the boundaries between categories than it is when adjusting between hybrid and non-hybrid schemas. As for your four categories, yes, they're mutually exclusive, and yes, they cover all the topics. But the fact that there are only four of them suggests to me that they would need rethinking and/or splitting up. As they are, they'd result in at least three more levels of navigation under them, since they're so broad and abstract. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Fri Dec 22 03:13:41 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from qonos.softcomca.com (qonos.softcomca.com [168.144.1.157]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB6382CF0C for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 03:13:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from qonos.softcomca.com [168.144.1.157] by qonos.softcomca.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.00) id AD1831250054; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 03:13:12 -0500 X-Originating-IP: 140.186.103.95 X-URL: http://www.mail2web.com/ Subject: Re: Re: Really Quick Mockup From: "rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu" Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 03:13:12 -0500 To: "joakim@helixcode.com" Cc: "gnome-web-list@gnome.org" Reply-To: rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Mailer: JMail 3.7.0 by Dimac (www.dimac.net) Message-Id: <200012220313660.SM00336@qonos.softcomca.com> Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work >Looks nice. I have a couple of problems with the colors. Basically, >everything looks like I turned brightness on my monitor up a few notches. >Everything's very low contrast and hard to read (especially the body text). The body text is definitely one of the things I wanted to think about. I like the charcoal, and find it to be a bit "sof= ter," but I don't know how usable it is. I'd have no problem switching to black if that is what we agree on. But I do t= hink that the charcoal is nicer. >I'd like to see some darker colors thrown into the mix, this is a >bit "wimpy" for my taste. I definitely want to use some stronger colors. I tried to initially, but you can't use dark colors for the background of= dark text. I have an aversion to white text, so I tried to make things work nicely with black text. My thinking was th= at the highlight colors would be the lighter shade of the main color for the particular sections. That would give us the= darker colors. Another way is to use a (gnomeish) icon for the section headers. It would make the page a little more i= nteresting, I think. I like how digitect tried to use icons initially. I don't think we should have one for every menu = item, but for sections, it might be nice. That does, of course, put greater requirements on the artists of the group. I= know I can't make nice icons, so I didn't want to push it as a requirement. But if someone is able to do them, it would= look good. --Ryan ------------------------------------------------------------------- This message has been posted from Mail2Web http://www.mail2web.com/ Web Hosting for $9.95 per month! Visit: http://www.yourhosting.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------- From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Fri Dec 22 03:23:38 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from m2w037 (M2W037.mail2web.com [168.144.108.37]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3909D2DB6A for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 03:23:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from m2w037 [168.144.108.37] by m2w037 with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.00) id AF961B9A013A; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 03:23:50 -0500 X-Originating-IP: 140.186.103.95 X-URL: http://www.mail2web.com/ Subject: Re: Re: Navigation Proposal From: "rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu" Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 03:23:50 -0500 To: "joakim@helixcode.com" , "gnome-web-list@gnome.org" Reply-To: rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Mailer: JMail 3.7.0 by Dimac (www.dimac.net) Message-Id: <200012220323626.SM01212@m2w037> Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work I'm just going to add my (Agreeing) comments below.... On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:31:56PM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: >This is getting very, very long, so I'm going to just cut and >summarize/answer. >Basically, there are two separate issues here, which I think we're >confusing >a little. First of all, there's the discussion of whether or not we should >use a hybrid task/category scheme, or a pure scheme. Secondly, there's the >issue of four top-level categories being too few, in my opinion. >Now, for the hybrid versus pure issue, sure, it's fine to have a pure >schema, >if it's possible, and doesn't deform an otherwise logical tree. For >instance, >you've created four top level categories which seem to be able to hold all >the information we have on the site. But is it possible to continue with a >pure schema on the second level of navigation? How deep will the tree be >with this method versus a hybrid schema? How w= ide? I agree. The doubt that a completely pure navigation structure is possible all the way through the site. And if it is, i= t will probably be at the cost of usability, which is what you're wanting to preserve. >I'd argue that particularly since hybrid schemas are so common on the web, >people are used to them, and don't have to expel much mental effort to >figure >them out. As a thought experiment, take your four categories and turn two >of >them into tasks (pretty easy, just put a verb in front of the noun, like >"Learn about the GNOME Foundation"). It's not much harder to figure out >(ignoring that the label is long and unwieldy). It seems to me that the >usability difference is vastly larger from adjusting the boundaries between >categories than it is when adjusting between hybrid and non-hybrid schemas. I agree. It was stated that hybrid schemes are common.....so people are already used to it. >As for your four categories, yes, they're mutually exclusive, and yes, they >cover all the topics. But the fact that there are only four of them >suggests >to me that they would need rethinking and/or splitting up. As they are, >they'd result in at least three more levels of navigation under them, since >they're so broad and abstract. This is my main gripe - 4 is definitely too few. 10 was too much. I wouldn't go for more than 7, but I think that my 6 = sections work pretty well. I'm sure that they can be refined more, but I think that it should be what we're working with= (at least for the sake of getting something done). 4 sections will require too many extra clicks to get at actual conte= nt. We shouldn't need more than 2 or 3 clicks to get to everything. Too few sections also means more information goes i= n each section. That ends up being a problem of information overload - we want to provide bite-sized pieces, not slabs o= f information. It is more usable to have a moderate number of sections, each of which only have a moderate number of sub= sections. If you do in either direction, you are going to end up with too much information somewhere. We should avoid t= hat. --Ryan ------------------------------------------------------------------- This message has been posted from Mail2Web http://www.mail2web.com/ Web Hosting for $9.95 per month! Visit: http://www.yourhosting.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------- From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Fri Dec 22 12:29:33 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDB112BDDC for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 12:29:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 149W0Z-0000bE-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 18:29:32 +0100 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 12:25:58 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: "gnome-web-list@gnome.org" Subject: Re: Re: Really Quick Mockup Message-ID: <20001222122558.C9263@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: "gnome-web-list@gnome.org" References: <200012220313660.SM00336@qonos.softcomca.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012220313660.SM00336@qonos.softcomca.com>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 03:13:12AM -0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 03:13:12AM -0500, rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu wrote: >> Looks nice. I have a couple of problems with the colors. Basically, >> everything looks like I turned brightness on my monitor up a few notches. >> Everything's very low contrast and hard to read (especially the body text). > The body text is definitely one of the things I wanted to think about. I > like the charcoal, and find it to be a bit "softer," but I don't know how > usable it is. I'd have no problem switching to black if that is what we > agree on. But I do think that the charcoal is nicer. I think it would have to be either black or quite a few shades darker. IT does indeed look "softer", but that's also part of the problem. >> I'd like to see some darker colors thrown into the mix, this is a bit >> "wimpy" for my taste. > I definitely want to use some stronger colors. I tried to initially, but > you can't use dark colors for the background of dark text. I have an > aversion to white text, so I tried to make things work nicely with black > text. My thinking was that the highlight colors would be the lighter shade > of the main color for the particular sections. That would give us the darker > colors. Another way is to use a (gnomeish) icon for the section headers. It > would make the page a little more interesting, I think. I like how digitect > tried to use icons initially. I don't think we should have one for every > menu item, but for sections, it might be nice. That does, of course, put > greater requirements on the artists of the group. I know I can't make nice > icons, so I didn't want to push it as a requirement. But if someone is able > to do them, it would look good. Strong colors should probably come into play in edges, accents, icons, and so on. I'm still uncertain about requiring icons, just because of the obstacle it presents when you need to add something. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From mandreiana@rdsnet.ro Sat Dec 23 02:50:06 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail.rdsnet.ro (mail.rdsnet.ro [193.231.236.16]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B3B4A2BD9F for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 02:49:16 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 8172 invoked from network); 23 Dec 2000 07:51:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO rdsnet.ro) (212.93.133.179) by mail.rdsnet.ro with SMTP; 23 Dec 2000 07:51:17 -0000 Message-ID: <3A4458FB.6A1853A0@rdsnet.ro> Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 09:49:15 +0200 From: Marius Andreiana Organization: Web Development Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ryan Muldoon Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Really Quick Mockup References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <200012200715.BAA171370@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <200012200733.BAA57916@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Shouldn't the navigation links be top level ? I think this was discussed and agreed that they eat to much space on the left side. Use menus like http://www.gnome.org/todo/index.php3 (left margin too big) -- Marius Andreiana From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Sat Dec 23 03:03:07 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from m2w021.mail2web.com (M2W021.mail2web.com [168.144.108.21]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 652902BAC2 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 03:03:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from m2w021.mail2web.com [168.144.108.21] by m2w021.mail2web.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.00) id AC227A33012C; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 03:02:42 -0500 X-Originating-IP: 140.186.102.236 X-URL: http://www.mail2web.com/ Subject: Re: Re: Re: Really Quick Mockup From: "rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu" Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 03:02:42 -0500 To: "joakim@helixcode.com" , "gnome-web-list@gnome.org" Reply-To: rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Mailer: JMail 3.7.0 by Dimac (www.dimac.net) Message-Id: <200012230302331.SM00269@m2w021.mail2web.com> Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Original Message: ----------------- From: Joakim Ziegler joakim@helixcode.com Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 12:25:58 -0600 Subject: Re: Re: Really Quick Mockup On Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 03:13:12AM -0500, rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu wrote: >> Looks nice. I have a couple of problems with the colors. Basically, >> everything looks like I turned brightness on my monitor up a few notches. >> Everything's very low contrast and hard to read (especially the body text). > The body text is definitely one of the things I wanted to think about. I > like the charcoal, and find it to be a bit "softer," but I don't know how > usable it is. I'd have no problem switching to black if that is what we > agree on. But I do think that the charcoal is nicer. I think it would have to be either black or quite a few shades darker. IT does indeed look "softer", but that's also part of the problem. ok.......I can concede that if I must. ;-) >> I'd like to see some darker colors thrown into the mix, this is a bit >> "wimpy" for my taste. > I definitely want to use some stronger colors. I tried to initially, but > you can't use dark colors for the background of dark text. I have an > aversion to white text, so I tried to make things work nicely with black > text. My thinking was that the highlight colors would be the lighter shade > of the main color for the particular sections. That would give us the darker > colors. Another way is to use a (gnomeish) icon for the section headers. It > would make the page a little more interesting, I think. I like how digitect > tried to use icons initially. I don't think we should have one for every > menu item, but for sections, it might be nice. That does, of course, put > greater requirements on the artists of the group. I know I can't make nice > icons, so I didn't want to push it as a requirement. But if someone is able > to do them, it would look good. Strong colors should probably come into play in edges, accents, icons, and so on. I'm still uncertain about requiring icons, just because of the obstacle it presents when you need to add something. I agree that those places are where strong colors would come in......so is there something that we are disagreeing o= n here? I don't think so, but maybe I'm not seeing it. I agree that icons add extra work, but doing them for sections l= essens the burden, because I doubt that we'll be changing sections that much. And we need some kind of art, to make the = pages not feel overly text-heavy (like my current mockup). I won't have time to make any changes on my stuff until after Christmas....if someone else wants to, feel free to. After= the 25th I should have some time though. --Ryan ------------------------------------------------------------------- This message has been posted from Mail2Web http://www.mail2web.com/ Web Hosting for $9.95 per month! Visit: http://www.yourhosting.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------- From webmaven@lvcm.com Sat Dec 23 16:09:22 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams2.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.76]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFC572BD85 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 16:09:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.231.69]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Sat, 23 Dec 2000 13:09:12 -0800 Message-ID: <3A45331D.CE46004C@lvcm.com> Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 15:19:57 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <20001219235007.H1013@helixcode.com> <3A40F218.A3A42DD1@lvcm.com> <20001220111307.J1013@helixcode.com> <3A4195CC.80CF85C@lvcm.com> <20001220225409.A1013@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Sorry it's taken me so long to reply, last minute holiday preparations can be a pain. Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:31:56PM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: > > Basically, there are two separate issues here, which I think we're confusing > a little. First of all, there's the discussion of whether or not we should > use a hybrid task/category scheme, or a pure scheme. Secondly, there's the > issue of four top-level categories being too few, in my opinion. I'll address them separately from now on, too. > Now, for the hybrid versus pure issue, sure, it's fine to have a pure schema, > if it's possible, and doesn't deform an otherwise logical tree. For instance, > you've created four top level categories which seem to be able to hold all > the information we have on the site. But is it possible to continue with a > pure schema on the second level of navigation? How deep will the tree be with > this method versus a hybrid schema? How wide? Of course it's possible. All content has a subject/topic. I'll post a follow up message with a complete tree as an illustration. > I'd argue that particularly since hybrid schemas are so common on the web, > people are used to them, and don't have to expel much mental effort to figure > them out. What you're really saying is that people don't bother to try and figure out an overall site structure, because on most sites they can't anyway. I don't disagree with *that*, but just because everyone is doing it wrong, does not mean we have to follow suit. If following the guideline of preferring a pure scheme results in an improved user experience, then I say we do so. If we wanted to accept the status-quo, we wouldn't be interested in GNOME in the first place. > As a thought experiment, take your four categories and turn two of > them into tasks (pretty easy, just put a verb in front of the noun, like > "Learn about the GNOME Foundation"). It's not much harder to figure out > (ignoring that the label is long and unwieldy). It seems to me that the > usability difference is vastly larger from adjusting the boundaries between > categories than it is when adjusting between hybrid and non-hybrid schemas. Mmm, I think you're confusing the issue here. What you've created is a noun/verb pair, which is a very specific combination. To make it an equivalent to the more inclusive 'Development' task category, you would have to label it 'Learn', after which the question naturally arises "learn about what?", which is answered in appropriate sub-categories, all of which then overlap in content with existing topical categories again (Learn about GNOME, Learn about the GNOME Foundation, etc.). The 'Development' category conceptually contains many different things that can be developed. You see, the problem with a hybrid schema is the fact that the mental model they suggest has classifications that conceptually overlap to a very significant degree, so that a user will likely guess wrong when trying to find something, thus forcing them to either learn the whole site map, spend extra time hunting around, or just break down and use the search function. With a 'pure' scheme, all the user must learn (or intuit) is the 'principle' behind the categories, and they will more likely be correct when they try to guess where something is. In the case of the current proposal, the 'Development' category and the 'Software' category conceptually overlap to a prohibitive extent, so decisions as to what to include in each are almost arbitrary, making it dificult to predict (or guess) what will be found in each. This leads to users clicking around more before they find what they're looking for, exactly the oposite effect from your intention to lead users to their goal using fewer clicks. If I'm looking for software documentation, will I automatically look for it in the 'Development' category? > As for your four categories, yes, they're mutually exclusive, and yes, they > cover all the topics. But the fact that there are only four of them suggests > to me that they would need rethinking and/or splitting up. As they are, > they'd result in at least three more levels of navigation under them, since > they're so broad and abstract. I'm all for refactoring the four categories I came up with into more (say six or seven) as long as it can be done within a topical categorization scheme. I'll see what I can come up with, and post a follow-up. I'm going to try and explain my position a little more clearly here, since it seems that part of my solution to your concerns for 'fewer clicks' has gone unnoticed. I apologize in advance for the length of my explanation. 'Navigation' in the context of website design has been conflated to include two concepts: Organization of content/functionality, and Wayfinding. The advantages of picking a pure schema (by subject, by audience, by task, etc) are chiefly on the organization side, making it simpler to decide what goes where, making it easier to categorize future additions to the content, and making it easier to decide to add new categories or sub-categories when appropriate. In other words, it increases maintainability by consistently factoring the content. It also has advantages with regard to wayfinding, in that it makes it easier for users to predict what area of the site will contain what they're looking for, once they've internalized the organization schema, and without forcing them to internalize the entire actual site structure. In other words, it makes a 'site-map' unneccessary. It sometimes *may* also have a wayfinding disadvantage, when more clicks are required to reach certain content. But wayfinding problems have many other solutions, while this is really the only way to improve organization. Here is one possible wayfinding solution that I've suggested before: Create an additional navigation device on the front page of the site, separate and distinct from the main navigation, that lists common tasks and leads to the correct section of the site. We can also create similar 'audience oriented' navigation to provide shortcuts for the press, developers, end-users, etc. The thing to keep in mind is that these additional wayfinding navbars do not compromise the *organization* of the sites content, which is still according to a pure topic oriented schema. I usually implement a secondary schema (as an example I'll use an Audience schema) by creating an 'Audience' directory that contains audience specific subdirectories, each with a single page of shortcuts specific to that audience. I don't add the 'Audience' directory into the main navigation, but instead create a second navigation bar or pick-list that only appears on the front page of the site, which lists the audiences, and links directly to 'their' shortcut page. This provides audience specific wayfinding, which then leads users directly to the content that is appropriate to them. Once on a content page, they can see (by looking at the main navigation) where they are in the site, and learn how the site is organized, so they can find their way around easier in the future. Here is the key, though: Since we have now separated audience-oriented wayfinding from the organization of the site, we can have the content of the audience specific shortcut pages overlap with each other and with the main schema without fear of confusing the site visitor. The same applies to creating any secondary wayfinding schema, including a task-oriented one, as seems appropriate in our case here. One difference between a task-oriented secondary navbar and an audience-oriented one, is that a task link is more likely to go directly to an existing page in the site, instead of to an intermediary page. I hope this helps explain the approach I'm advocating more completely. Michael Bernstein. From digitect@mindspring.com Sat Dec 23 18:57:39 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BF4B2BD74 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 18:57:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4ff.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.239]) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA10791 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 18:57:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <000501c06d3c$2255fd60$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <20001219235007.H1013@helixcode.com> <3A40F218.A3A42DD1@lvcm.com> <20001220111307.J1013@helixcode.com> <3A4195CC.80CF85C@lvcm.com> <20001220225409.A1013@helixcode.com> <3A45331D.CE46004C@lvcm.com> Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 18:57:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > From: "Michael Bernstein" > Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2000 6:19 PM > Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal > > . . . > > Here is one possible wayfinding solution that I've suggested > before: Create an additional navigation device on the front > page of the site, separate and distinct from the main > navigation, that lists common tasks and leads to the correct > section of the site. We can also create similar 'audience > oriented' navigation to provide shortcuts for the press, > developers, end-users, etc. The thing to keep in mind is > that these additional wayfinding navbars do not compromise > the *organization* of the sites content, which is still > according to a pure topic oriented schema. > I completely agree with Michael's other statements in this message, but this paragraph bears repeating. If we don't have a clear structure behind the scenes, authoring and maintainability will be pretty much impossible. Why not simply express this structure in the primary navigation scheme? Then the form and the content will have an architectural integrity that makes the site easy to navigate and doesn't require a lot of explanation for everybody that will have to interface with the design of the site at some point in its lifetime. We can *always* put subjective/topical shortcuts from any page to any other page. It's even possible to create whole micro-environments that have content referenced from all over the site for groups like the press, new users, kde users, etc. I wonder if we're struggling with a main structure because we haven't fleshed out a full outline of content. Sooner or later, somebody's going to have to do this ... why not now? Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From digitect@mindspring.com Sat Dec 23 19:27:12 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A47082BDAD for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 19:27:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4ff.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.239]) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA08248 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 19:27:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001b01c06d40$436b1680$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: Subject: Color boards Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 19:27:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work I've finished putting together color boards with some of the theoretical possibilities from my revised color palette at http://www.mindspring.com/~digitect/gnome/index.htm#colorboards. As you can see, the possibilities are pretty expansive with just a limited number of hues. As I said before, at some point we're going to have to take a flying leap into design. Maybe there's one more step of general layout (in grayscale) before we start forging comps. The color/graphics discussion seems to have waned again, so maybe there aren't too many of you who care about the theoretical side of colors and graphics. But I'd appreciate whatever critique anybody would offer, be it either theoretical or gut level. Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From thomasmueller@mail.com Fri Dec 29 16:48:41 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from pop162-leg.mail.com (pop162-leg.mail.com [165.251.32.54]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74DD62BCB1 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 2000 16:48:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.com (pD9036119.dip.t-dialin.net [217.3.97.25]) by pop162-leg.mail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B93281C3E3 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 2000 16:48:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3A4D14D6.7030303@mail.com> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 22:48:54 +0000 From: Thomas Mueller User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux 2.4.0-test1 i686; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001207 X-Accept-Language: de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org, gnome-web-list@gnome.org, gnome-web-list@gnome.org, gnome-web-list@gnome.org, gnome-web-list@gnome.org, gnome-web-list@gnome.org, gnome-web-list@gnome.org, gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: OAsis username Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Hi, I would like to contribute to bluefish and was told on the website that I have to register with OAsis and send my username to this address. Well, here it is: "ThomasMueller" Happy New Year! Thomas Mueller From shax82@hotmail.com Sun Dec 3 02:07:58 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from hotmail.com (oe5.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.236.109]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5D562BD6C for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2000 02:07:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 2 Dec 2000 23:07:24 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [200.53.168.85] From: "Felipe Contreras" To: "Gnome Web List" Subject: KISS Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 01:08:42 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C05CC5.93ED77A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Dec 2000 07:07:24.0239 (UTC) FILETIME=[AFCB55F0:01C05CF7] Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C05CC5.93ED77A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi everybody, I was wondering if everyone was really so quiet, or you = deleted me from the list : ) Anyway if you are there just take a look to this site, it's simple, = stupid, small but it's cool to me, sure we are going to make something a = little bit bigger, take a look and tell if it's somewhat the "look" that = the new gnome site will have. Felipe Contreras ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C05CC5.93ED77A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi everybody, I was wondering if = everyone was=20 really so quiet, or you deleted me from the list : )
Anyway if you are there just take a = look to this=20 site, it's simple, stupid, small but it's cool to me, sure we are going = to make=20 something a little bit bigger, take a look and tell if it's somewhat the = "look"=20 that the new gnome site will have.
 
Felipe = Contreras
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C05CC5.93ED77A0-- From mcsoccer@colyer.org Sat Dec 2 23:53:05 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from eve.speakeasy.net (eve.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.17]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C77B2BB53 for ; Sat, 2 Dec 2000 23:53:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from darkfusion.colyer.org (dsl254-096-109-nyc1.dsl-isp.net [216.254.96.109]) by eve.speakeasy.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id eB34oCX20812; Sat, 2 Dec 2000 20:50:13 -0800 Message-Id: <200012030450.eB34oCX20812@eve.speakeasy.net> Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 23:57:51 EST From: Matt Colyer To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Reply-To: mcsoccer@colyer.org X-Mailer: Spruce 0.7.2 for X11 w/smtpio 0.7.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: (no subject) Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Hello, It would be really nice if we could get some sever space at xxxx.gnome.org for development purposes. Such as hosting a developer/abilities db as well as all the proposals, design comps, requirements, and ideas that have been stated thus far. I was going to do this on another server but I wasn't sure if that was what your goal was with the proposal later Matt From David.Bellot@loria.fr Tue Dec 5 13:55:44 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lorraine.loria.fr (lorraine.loria.fr [152.81.1.17]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DF262E1B0 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 13:55:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from loria.fr (IDENT:david@vallois.loria.fr [152.81.7.64]) by lorraine.loria.fr (8.9.3/8.9.3/8.9.3/JCG-DG) with ESMTP id TAA24532; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 19:55:41 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <3A2D3B32.C95DE6DC@loria.fr> Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 20:00:03 +0100 From: David Bellot Organization: LORIA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16-22 i686) X-Accept-Language: fr-FR, fr, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: joakim@helixcode.com, gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: French localization of web sites and softwares Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Hi, I'm very interested in the localization of Gnome Software and Web sites. Actually, I'm the leader of the French Mozilla group. We are working actually on the M18 release in french and have already localized all precedent versions (web page is http://www.loria.fr/~bellot/mozilla.html). I have a little team with 12 persons, and I hope they could help too in maintaining and localizing web sites in french and perhaps other GNOME softwares. Localization for softwares and web sites in KDE project is simply great (and the leader of French Team in KDE is a good friend of me ;-). So, I hope to see the same work done in GNOME which is actually my favorite desktop. Mozilla is almost ready and we could work on other projects. I hope you're interested in it, and perhaps we'll work together to make GNOME the ultimate workbench ! Best Regards, David Bellot bellot@loria.fr From aidin@djesi.ba Tue Dec 5 16:56:43 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from happy-one.ssbljk (OSF-remote13.soros.org.ba [195.222.51.187]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C4ED2E1A6 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 16:56:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (aidin@localhost) by happy-one.ssbljk (8.10.2/8.10.2/SuSE Linux 8.10.0-0.3) with ESMTP id eB3EMdZ01218; Sun, 3 Dec 2000 15:22:39 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: happy-one.ssbljk: aidin owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 15:22:38 +0100 (CET) From: Aidin Alihodzic X-Sender: aidin@happy-one.ssbljk To: Felipe Contreras Cc: Gnome Web List Subject: Re: KISS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work which site? ;) sorry but I can't to find URL in your post... Haven't closed my eyes for 48 hours.... |-) argh... there is no any URL :-) Aidin On Sun, 3 Dec 2000, Felipe Contreras wrote: > Hi everybody, I was wondering if everyone was really so quiet, or you deleted me from the list : ) > Anyway if you are there just take a look to this site, it's simple, stupid, small but it's cool to me, sure we are going to make something a little bit bigger, take a look and tell if it's somewhat the "look" that the new gnome site will have. > > Felipe Contreras > From al593181@mail.mty.itesm.mx Tue Dec 5 18:34:49 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from webmail.mty.itesm.mx (webmail.mty.itesm.mx [131.178.2.83]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B02B92C926 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 18:34:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from felipecg (200.53.168.44) by webmail.mty.itesm.mx (5.1.054) id 3A2724C800013283; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 17:32:59 -0600 Message-ID: <000e01c05f14$2dc8e8a0$b09fb283@felipecg> From: "Felipe Contreras" To: "Aidin Alihodzic" Cc: "Gnome Web List" References: Subject: Re: KISS Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 17:36:20 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Damn! that's strange, http://www.linuxfromscratch.org, let's test it.. yea it is. Don't worry, now I've finished my finals, my mind is here again. : ) In what was I thinking? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aidin Alihodzic" To: "Felipe Contreras" Cc: "Gnome Web List" Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 8:22 AM Subject: Re: KISS > > which site? ;) > sorry but I can't to find URL in your post... Haven't closed my eyes for > 48 hours.... |-) argh... there is no any URL :-) > > Aidin > > On Sun, 3 Dec 2000, Felipe Contreras wrote: > > > Hi everybody, I was wondering if everyone was really so quiet, or you deleted me from the list : ) > > Anyway if you are there just take a look to this site, it's simple, stupid, small but it's cool to me, sure we are going to make something a little bit bigger, take a look and tell if it's somewhat the "look" that the new gnome site will have. > > > > Felipe Contreras > > > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-web-list mailing list > gnome-web-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-web-list > From digitect@mindspring.com Tue Dec 5 21:09:28 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from barry.mail.mindspring.net (barry.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.25]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FEF72BA9A for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:09:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4ei.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.210]) by barry.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA02057; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:09:24 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <005601c05f29$b228f3a0$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: "Felipe Contreras" Cc: "Gnome Web List" References: <000e01c05f14$2dc8e8a0$b09fb283@felipecg> Subject: Re: KISS Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:10:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > Damn! that's strange, http://www.linuxfromscratch.org, let's test it.. yea Hmmm, looks more KDE than GNOME, I'd say. Has the typical bars and colored areas, you know? Personally, I've been on a floating look lately, grey on white with accents of blue. Check out http://www.mindspring.com/~digitect/gnome-print/new/index.htm and my 15 minute GNOME comp at http://www.mindspring.com/~digitect/gnome/index.htm. Graphically, I'd like to see something less tech, more curvy, minimal and three-dimensional (or at least layered), and a little primitive/earthy looking, perhaps with a tad of carved in stone or rune-ish look like at my first link. I'm tired of colored bars everywhere. My two cents. From Uraeus@linuxrising.org Wed Dec 6 12:54:27 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mta01.chello.no (mta01.chello.no [212.186.255.12]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7E532BBE4 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 12:54:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from [192.168.0.131] ([212.186.233.38]) by mta01.chello.no (InterMail vK.4.02.00.00 201-232-116 license 77df2db80a2bdce4d335ff4839618d42) with ESMTP id <20001206175517.CVQB5083.mta01@[212.186.233.38]>; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 18:55:17 +0100 Subject: Who am I and what do I want to do for GNOME web From: Christian Schaller To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Cc: Joakim Ziegler Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 06 Oct 2000 15:54:44 -0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20001206175517.CVQB5083.mta01@[212.186.233.38]> Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Hi, I thought I should do what many others on the list have done before me and make a short presentation of myself and say something about how I plan to contribute. I have been following/parttaking in the GNOME effort now for since the 0.30 release. I am no coder (at least not of a usable level) so I have usually focused on doing advocacy stuff. This has included doing a lot of interviews and articles on GNOME which I have mostly published on Linuxpower.org and also help with arranging some GNOME related events, like helping IDG to get Michaek Meeks and Alan Cox to Oslo to do talks etc. I have also indirectly helped with the Norwegian translation by loaning Kjartan money ;) What do I want to do as part of the web team? Well, I am not interested in the choice of technology or page design, that I leave to the other able people on this list. What I want to do is continue as I have as a newshunter and editor for Gnotices and I also want to help maintain content. Currently I try to keep the mailing list page (http://www.gnome.org/resources/mailing-lists.html) resonanbly up to date, but I wouldn't mind helping out maintaining other parts of the GNOME website which could need some love. So if there are some parts of the website in desperate need of some content maintenance, please let me know. Christian From shax82@hotmail.com Sat Dec 9 21:59:27 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from hotmail.com (oe68.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.236.207]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50D392BB41 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 21:59:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 18:59:26 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [200.53.168.230] From: "Felipe Contreras" To: "Gnome Web List" Subject: Gnome test page Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 20:29:27 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0621E.BA24F8E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Dec 2000 02:59:26.0345 (UTC) FILETIME=[34C51F90:01C06255] Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0621E.BA24F8E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0006_01C0621E.BA24F8E0" ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C0621E.BA24F8E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, since there is no action in the list I did a sample of the front = page of the site. Sure there need to be lots of icons in order to make = the page look good, you know, one for each section of the site. For the ones that like lynx, this page looks pretty good. And for the ones that likes IE, sorry right now I've seen the page = doesn't look right. What do you think? ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C0621E.BA24F8E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well, since there is no action in the = list I did a=20 sample of the front page of the site. Sure there need to be lots of = icons in=20 order to make the page look good, you know, one for each section of the=20 site.
For the ones that like lynx, this page = looks pretty=20 good.
And for the ones that likes IE, sorry = right now=20 I've seen the page doesn't look right.
What do you = think?
------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C0621E.BA24F8E0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0621E.BA24F8E0 Content-Type: text/html; name="gnome2.html" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="gnome2.html" Gnome Test Page
3D"Gnome_logo"
Quote of the day: = Gnome rulez
Menu
Applications
Development
News
Download
Information
International
hmmmmmm, editorial?
Partners
GTK
GIMP
Linux
Kernel
Helix Code
OSDN
Gnome NEWS:
Hi, the news are....
no one is writting on the = list :-P
And tha..., o yea, Metatags
Gnome TIP:
Download GNOME from Helix Code. It's an organization = dedicated to make the GNOMe installation easier, so, It's better that = you download GNOMe from there.
Miscelanius:
Download GNOME from Helix Code
Here there will be anything, no matter about = what.
What the hell is GNOME
[Applications][Development][News][Download]
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0621E.BA24F8E0-- From hansolo@rochester.rr.com Sun Dec 10 00:01:24 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mailout1-1.nyroc.rr.com (mailout1-1.nyroc.rr.com [24.92.226.146]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F23D02BAC2 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 00:01:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from 2z2j10b (d185fd10d.rochester.rr.com [24.95.209.13]) by mailout1-1.nyroc.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA21127; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 23:56:48 -0500 (EST) From: "Alex" To: "Felipe Contreras" , "Gnome Web List" Subject: RE: Gnome test page Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 23:54:35 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Seems ok there are a few spelling issues though "Miscellaneous" is the correct spelling not "Miscelanius" And is there a reason why its spelled "GNOMe" several places? -Alex -----Original Message----- From: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org [mailto:gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org]On Behalf Of Felipe Contreras Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2000 9:29 PM To: Gnome Web List Subject: Gnome test page Well, since there is no action in the list I did a sample of the front page of the site. Sure there need to be lots of icons in order to make the page look good, you know, one for each section of the site. For the ones that like lynx, this page looks pretty good. And for the ones that likes IE, sorry right now I've seen the page doesn't look right. What do you think? From michaeld@senet.com.au Sun Dec 10 05:51:40 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from pluto.senet.com.au (pluto.senet.com.au [203.56.239.150]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6FD62BC8D for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 05:51:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from senet.com.au (c20-p50.senet.com.au [203.152.254.51]) by pluto.senet.com.au (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBAApY598537 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 21:21:35 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from michaeld@senet.com.au) Message-ID: <3A33603A.361C41B3@senet.com.au> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 21:21:38 +1030 From: Michael Davies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16-22 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GNOME Web List Subject: So where to from here? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work What's happenning with gnome-web? Are we waiting for Joakim's design document? Are we going to get working over the holidays? :-) -- Michael Davies "Do what you think is interesting, do something that michaeld@senet.com.au you think is fun and worthwhile, because otherwise you won't do it well anyway." -- Brian Kernighan. From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sun Dec 10 05:58:07 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA9B82BF4F for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 05:58:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 1454BB-000147-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 11:58:05 +0100 Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 05:55:21 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: GNOME Web List Subject: Re: So where to from here? Message-ID: <20001210055521.R21071@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: GNOME Web List References: <3A33603A.361C41B3@senet.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A33603A.361C41B3@senet.com.au>; from michaeld@senet.com.au on Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 09:21:38PM +1030 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 09:21:38PM +1030, Michael Davies wrote: > What's happenning with gnome-web? Are we waiting for Joakim's design > document? Are we going to get working over the holidays? :-) I'm actually writing it now. I've been a little stressed out lately, but I'm hoping to have it all done on Sunday evening/night. Please bear with me. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From mlee@andrews.edu Sun Dec 10 10:28:02 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp-server.tampabay.rr.com (smtp-server.tampabay.rr.com [65.32.1.34]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01D922BAB8 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 10:28:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from andrews.edu (24161225hfc63.tampabay.rr.com [24.161.225.63]) by smtp-server.tampabay.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13451 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 10:28:01 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 10:29:31 -0500 From: Martin Lee X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gnome Web List Subject: GNOME comp Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Since it all that's going on is people making test pages and designs, I thought I might as well jump on the bandwagon. Here's one of my ideas so far... http://www.infovariant.com/mlee/g.gif Don't get all upset if it isn't what you want, It's only an idea. Things can change... From newton@retemail.es Sun Dec 10 12:34:03 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp4s.retemail.es (smtp4.iddeo.es [62.81.31.73]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B65ED2BAB8 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 12:33:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from retemail.es ([62.174.96.45]) by smtp4s.retemail.es (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20001210173354.GGBG116110.smtp4s.retemail.es@retemail.es> for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 18:33:54 +0100 Message-ID: <3A34151F.891D2AF5@retemail.es> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 18:43:27 -0500 From: Antonio =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mart=EDnez=20=C1lvarez?= Organization: Proyecto Ciencia Libre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [es] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.17 i586) X-Accept-Language: en, es MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: unsubscribe 417320 newton@retemail.es Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work -- Antonio Martínez Álvarez, From digitect@mindspring.com Sun Dec 10 13:57:42 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mclean.mail.mindspring.net (mclean.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.57]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B58132BAB8 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 13:57:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4a3.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.67]) by mclean.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA02838 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 13:57:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <002a01c062db$37f77ce0$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: "Gnome Web List" References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> Subject: Re: GNOME comp Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 13:58:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > Here's one of my ideas so far... > > http://www.infovariant.com/mlee/g.gif Hey, I like it! Comments: * The four quadrant idea has a nice effect visually and organizationally. I think it expresses the matrix we have in the GNOME community between users and developers. So it is also fitting that the News and Software sections are at the intersection of these two groups. Any thought to what happens after the front page to the unused half of the matrix? (i.e., the Developer box when your in a user section, or vice-versa.) * I like the color palette. Warm gray is identifiably GNOME and I think we should stick to it, although I may suggest replacing the red with a warm blue, not only because of my personal taste but because it plays better on most monitors. Also, I'm not sure where the hexagon patterning comes from. * I'd like to see desktop-type icons used as navigational tools for the different sections. This would help overcome localization problems, contribute/utilize our icon library, and generally improve the impression of the site. Several of these are already in place and work well, for example: calendar, screenshots and help question mark (FAQ). * I don't think the current site's or this one's use of phrases is very helpful. I find single word links (if they're well chosen) to be much more useful in finding my way around a site. Tasks should be distilled down to one word and one icon to be truly successful. (i.e., "See GNOME in action" is much less clear than "Screenshots" even though the later is basically slang.) Obviously we're still working through all this, so I'm not trying to criticize the comp, just voice my opinion since it raised the issue for me. I guess we still haven't decided the main sections of the site, but it would be good if the design could some how reflect them. The two-sided approach you present is a great start if we never end up getting it more refined than that. Steve Hall [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From David.Bellot@loria.fr Sun Dec 10 10:34:58 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lorraine.loria.fr (lorraine.loria.fr [152.81.1.17]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29AA62BAB8 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 10:34:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from loria.fr (IDENT:david@vallois.loria.fr [152.81.7.64]) by lorraine.loria.fr (8.9.3/8.9.3/8.9.3/JCG-DG) with ESMTP id QAA20131 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 16:34:56 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <3A33A375.F1251FA0@loria.fr> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 16:38:29 +0100 From: David Bellot Organization: LORIA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16-22 i686) X-Accept-Language: fr-FR, fr, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Gnome Web List Subject: Re: GNOME comp References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Martin Lee wrote: > Since it all that's going on is people making test pages and designs, I > thought I might as well jump on the bandwagon. > > Here's one of my ideas so far... > > http://www.infovariant.com/mlee/g.gif > > Don't get all upset if it isn't what you want, It's only an idea. Things > can change... I found your design nice, but I prefer the new desing. In fact, the organization of the web page is better than the actual one. Could you mix the both ? And could you add more colors to make the page more fun. Old GNOME colors are not happy ! Best Regards, DB From ryan@devnut.com Sun Dec 10 20:55:36 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from web.olypen.com (olypen.com [208.200.248.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA2842BAFB for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 20:55:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from devnu(ppp-214.olypen.com[208.238.207.218]) (1921 bytes) by web.olypen.com via sendmail with P:smtp/R:inet_hosts/T:smtp (sender: ) id for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 17:59:56 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2.0.109 1999-Oct-27 #15 built 1999-Dec-15) From: "Ryan Christensen" To: "Gnome Web List" Subject: RE: So where to from here? Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 17:52:05 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20001210055521.R21071@helixcode.com> X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Don't feel rushed.. we'll stay as long as it takes.. :) Martin.. on your design.. looks pretty nice. Digitect basically took the words out of my mouth on opionion on it.. so I don't think I'll say much else. Ryan > -----Original Message----- > From: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org > [mailto:gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org]On Behalf Of Joakim Ziegler > Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2000 3:55 AM > To: GNOME Web List > Subject: Re: So where to from here? > > > On Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 09:21:38PM +1030, Michael Davies wrote: > > > What's happenning with gnome-web? Are we waiting for Joakim's design > > document? Are we going to get working over the holidays? :-) > > I'm actually writing it now. I've been a little stressed out > lately, but I'm > hoping to have it all done on Sunday evening/night. Please bear with me. > > -- > Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - > Radagast@IRC > FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer > http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-web-list mailing list > gnome-web-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-web-list > From mark@websidestory.com Mon Dec 11 11:29:56 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.websidestory.com (mail1.websidestory.com [208.232.223.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D6672DBA3 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 11:29:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from websidestory.com (mark.websidestory.com [208.232.223.60]) by mail1.websidestory.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id eBBGTsq03452 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 08:29:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A35023E.D150AC99@websidestory.com> Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 08:35:10 -0800 From: Mark Koopman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Gnome Web List Subject: Re: GNOME comp References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> <002a01c062db$37f77ce0$0201a8c0@pc001> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > > Here's one of my ideas so far... > > > > http://www.infovariant.com/mlee/g.gif > This is a beauty! #!/usr/local/bin/perl # Mark Koopman - mark@websidestory.com # Software Engineer # # WebSideStory, Inc # # 10182 Telesis Court # San Diego CA 92121 # 858.546.1182.##.318 # 858.546.0480.fax eval(lc(join('', map ({chr}(q( 49877273766940 80827378843973 32767986693280 69827639463932 39883673434341 ))=~/../g)))); From hedgehog@strogino.ru Mon Dec 11 15:58:30 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from hellfire.strogino.ru (hellfire.strogino.ru [212.45.8.27]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8790E2BB47 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 15:58:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from hedgehog (hedgehog.strogino.bhg.ru [192.168.35.236]) by hellfire.strogino.ru (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA24425 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 23:55:37 +0300 Message-ID: <002601c063b4$4f998c60$ec23a8c0@strogino.bhg.ru> From: "Serguey Kolesov" To: "GNOME-web-list" References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> Subject: Re: GNOME comp Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 23:52:41 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Hello. > Here's one of my ideas so far... > > http://www.infovariant.com/mlee/g.gif Well, I like it. It is not perfect but it is something to start with. And I have a few comments: - Headings "Start with GNOME" and "Develop with GNOME" can be made a bit more readable (a darker colour, maybe?) - The main font (Times or what is it?) is really ugly... what about Arial or something similar? -- Serguey From bill@noreboots.com Mon Dec 11 20:37:50 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from shine.micron.net (shine.micron.net [204.229.122.198]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 894A02D3DF for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:37:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from 10.224.0.198 ([10.224.0.198]) by shine.micron.net (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with SMTP id G5FLV000.A1A for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 18:37:48 -0700 Received: from noreboots.com (ucntcme231.dsl.micron.net [206.207.111.231]) by with SMTP (MailShield v1.5); Mon, 11 Dec 2000 18:37:47 -0700 Message-ID: <3A35814A.A2269CF0@noreboots.com> Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 18:37:14 -0700 From: Bill Anderson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16-22smp i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> <002601c063b4$4f998c60$ec23a8c0@strogino.bhg.ru> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SMTP-HELO: noreboots.com X-SMTP-MAIL-FROM: bill@noreboots.com X-SMTP-PEER-INFO: ucntcme231.dsl.micron.net [206.207.111.231] Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Serguey Kolesov wrote: > > Hello. > > > Here's one of my ideas so far... > > > > http://www.infovariant.com/mlee/g.gif > > Well, I like it. It is not perfect but it is something to start with. And I > have a few comments: > > - Headings "Start with GNOME" and "Develop with GNOME" can be made a bit > more readable (a darker colour, maybe?) Agreed, a darker color _would_ be nice. > > - The main font (Times or what is it?) is really ugly... what about Arial or > something similar? How many Linux users have that font without going through the trouble of adding it? I have it, but then i added a whole lot of TTFs to my system. Something to keep in mind is fon-availability on a default install of a distribution. AFAIK, no distributions currently include truetype fonts. Bill From mark@websidestory.com Mon Dec 11 20:50:08 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.websidestory.com (mail1.websidestory.com [208.232.223.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22BE12D2FD for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:50:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from websidestory.com (mark.websidestory.com [208.232.223.60]) by mail1.websidestory.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id eBC1o7q16492 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 17:50:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A35858E.3339617D@websidestory.com> Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 17:55:26 -0800 From: Mark Koopman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> <002601c063b4$4f998c60$ec23a8c0@strogino.bhg.ru> <3A35814A.A2269CF0@noreboots.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Bill Anderson wrote: > > Serguey Kolesov wrote: > > > > Hello. > > > > > Here's one of my ideas so far... > > > > > > http://www.infovariant.com/mlee/g.gif > > > > Well, I like it. It is not perfect but it is something to start with. And I > > have a few comments: > > > > - Headings "Start with GNOME" and "Develop with GNOME" can be made a bit > > more readable (a darker colour, maybe?) > > Agreed, a darker color _would_ be nice. > > > > > - The main font (Times or what is it?) is really ugly... what about Arial or > > something similar? > > How many Linux users have that font without going through the trouble of > adding it? I have it, but then i added a whole lot of TTFs to my system. > > Something to keep in mind is fon-availability on a default install of a > distribution. AFAIK, no distributions currently include truetype fonts. > > Bill > > I installed an RH6.2 distrib about 6 months that has Arial. Arials been around along time, i think we can expect users have it. i'm sure someone can prove me wrong though :) -- #!/usr/local/bin/perl # Mark Koopman - mark@websidestory.com # Software Engineer # # WebSideStory, Inc # # 10182 Telesis Court # San Diego CA 92121 # 858.546.1182.##.318 # 858.546.0480.fax eval(lc(join('', map ({chr}(q( 49877273766940 80827378843973 32767986693280 69827639463932 39883673434341 ))=~/../g)))); From al593181@mail.mty.itesm.mx Mon Dec 11 21:16:48 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from webmail.mty.itesm.mx (webmail.mty.itesm.mx [131.178.2.83]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4CDA2BAE9 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 21:16:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from felipecg (200.53.168.198) by webmail.mty.itesm.mx (5.1.054) id 3A2724C800027BD5; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:15:19 -0600 Message-ID: <002d01c063e1$d7082300$442cfea9@felipecg> From: "Felipe Contreras" To: "Gnome Web List" , "Mark Koopman" References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> <002601c063b4$4f998c60$ec23a8c0@strogino.bhg.ru> <3A35814A.A2269CF0@noreboots.com> <3A35858E.3339617D@websidestory.com> Subject: Re: GNOME comp Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:18:35 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Koopman" Cc: "GNOME-web-list" Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 7:55 PM Subject: Re: GNOME comp > Bill Anderson wrote: > > > > Serguey Kolesov wrote: > > > > > > Hello. > > > > > > > Here's one of my ideas so far... > > > > > > > > http://www.infovariant.com/mlee/g.gif > > > > > > Well, I like it. It is not perfect but it is something to start with. And I > > > have a few comments: > > > > > > - Headings "Start with GNOME" and "Develop with GNOME" can be made a bit > > > more readable (a darker colour, maybe?) > > > > Agreed, a darker color _would_ be nice. I Agree. > > > > > > > > - The main font (Times or what is it?) is really ugly... what about Arial or > > > something similar? > > > > How many Linux users have that font without going through the trouble of > > adding it? I have it, but then i added a whole lot of TTFs to my system. > > > > Something to keep in mind is fon-availability on a default install of a > > distribution. AFAIK, no distributions currently include truetype fonts. > > > > Bill > > > > > > I installed an RH6.2 distrib about 6 months that has Arial. Arials been > around > along time, i think we can expect users have it. > i'm sure someone can prove me wrong though :) My distro has the Arial font too, but anyway, the Times is not so bad, if you think about standards. So correct me if I'm wrong but I think you can say: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from gio.ingor.upm.es (glo.gio.ingor.upm.es [138.100.17.11]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A87BD2D2E0 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 07:06:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from gio.ingor.upm.es ([138.100.21.98]) by gio.ingor.upm.es (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA08708; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:06:00 +0100 Message-ID: <3A36142A.7020304@gio.ingor.upm.es> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:03:54 +0100 From: "Guille (bisho)" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-6.1.1 i686; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001119 X-Accept-Language: es-es, es, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Koopman Cc: GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> <002601c063b4$4f998c60$ec23a8c0@strogino.bhg.ru> <3A35814A.A2269CF0@noreboots.com> <3A35858E.3339617D@websidestory.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > I installed an RH6.2 distrib about 6 months that has Arial. Arials been > around > along time, i think we can expect users have it. > i'm sure someone can prove me wrong though :) The equivalent of Arial in Unix and Mac machines would be Helvetica. So I would propose to use -- \|||||||/ Guillermo Pérez Pérez < o o > - bisho@onirica.com \ L / - bisho@eurielec.etsit.upm.es -oOOo-------oOOo- From digitect@mindspring.com Tue Dec 12 09:02:14 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from barry.mail.mindspring.net (barry.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.25]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B836D2D286 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:02:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4ci.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.146]) by barry.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA17916 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:02:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001d01c06444$46104900$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: "GNOME-web-list" References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> <002601c063b4$4f998c60$ec23a8c0@strogino.bhg.ru> <3A35814A.A2269CF0@noreboots.com> <3A35858E.3339617D@websidestory.com> <3A36142A.7020304@gio.ingor.upm.es> Subject: Re: GNOME comp Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:03:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > The equivalent of Arial in Unix and Mac machines would be Helvetica. > > So I would propose to use * Am I incorrect in thinking that Arial is a proprietary font, perhaps owned by Microsoft? Unless every major distribution distributes it, I'm completely against using Arial. Helvetica has been on my system since RH 5.1, so I'd be in favor of making that the main font if we're going sans serif. But, frankly, serif fonts are easier to read, although I would agree that they look lower tech. I could easily stand having Times be the default, too. * I think we'd be better off sticking with picking one (serif v. non-serif) and having any particular glyphs come from within that chosen family. Let's not mix and match, it creates the potential of too much range in style. (i.e., "Helvetica", "Times", "Big ol' Outline Font", "Courier") * The font tag was deprecated from the W3C HTML 4.01 standard a few years ago. If we're not going to depend on linked style sheets, the correct way to call out a font (all text being contained within

tags, of course): Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From webmaven@lvcm.com Tue Dec 12 09:35:42 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams3.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.77]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 368002BB92 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:35:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.192.168]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Tue, 12 Dec 2000 06:34:29 -0800 Message-ID: <3A365581.775D5846@lvcm.com> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 08:42:41 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Guille (bisho)" Cc: Mark Koopman , GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp References: <3A33A15B.FAA7F010@andrews.edu> <002601c063b4$4f998c60$ec23a8c0@strogino.bhg.ru> <3A35814A.A2269CF0@noreboots.com> <3A35858E.3339617D@websidestory.com> <3A36142A.7020304@gio.ingor.upm.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work "Guille (bisho)" wrote: > > > I installed an RH6.2 distrib about 6 months that has Arial. Arials been > > around > > along time, i think we can expect users have it. > > i'm sure someone can prove me wrong though :) > > The equivalent of Arial in Unix and Mac machines would be Helvetica. > > So I would propose to use I usually use Michael Bernstein. From fboliv@student.dei.uc.pt Tue Dec 12 10:27:45 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from student.dei.uc.pt (student.dei.uc.pt [193.137.203.231]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 204152CA8C for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:27:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (fboliv@localhost) by student.dei.uc.pt (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBCFLwf15455; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:21:58 GMT Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:21:58 +0000 (WET) From: "Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n)" To: Michael Bernstein Cc: "Guille (bisho)" , Mark Koopman , GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp In-Reply-To: <3A365581.775D5846@lvcm.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Even though some new systems do have True Type fonts installed by default (including Arial), most of the systems do NOT have them, and do use helvetica as the standard font. Therefore i do agree with something like: or possibly (and thinking about the windows users visiting gnome.org (which will be a lot, as they are already)), including verdana, with In my oppinion (and also considering fonts), i think 8pt fonts are a good size for such a web page because they are not too small, but also not big at all, and do fit any resolution nicely from 640x480 to 1900... I'd like to know what you guys think about this size. (Note that this is the equivalent to font size 1) > > > I installed an RH6.2 distrib about 6 months that has Arial. Arials been > > > around > > > along time, i think we can expect users have it. > > > i'm sure someone can prove me wrong though :) > > > > The equivalent of Arial in Unix and Mac machines would be Helvetica. > > So I would propose to use ======================================== Frederico Oliveira - aka kript0n Email: kript0n@boxnetwork.net kript0n@void.box.sk fboliv@student.dei.uc.pt ======================================== From digitect@mindspring.com Tue Dec 12 10:36:04 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from barry.mail.mindspring.net (barry.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.25]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBC2D2CA8C for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:36:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from smui05.slb.mindspring.net (smui05.slb.mindspring.net [199.174.114.91]) by barry.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA27500 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:36:04 -0500 (EST) From: digitect@mindspring.com Received: by smui05.slb.mindspring.net id KAA0000005425; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:36:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:36:04 -0500 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Re: GNOME comp Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: 208.150.104.72 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > I usually use Yikes! Double-dog-ditto my previous comments on Arial for Verdana (proprietary (perhaps even MS), non-standard to most Linux distributions). Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From webmaven@lvcm.com Tue Dec 12 10:40:06 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams3.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.77]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A20B2CA8C for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:40:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.192.168]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Tue, 12 Dec 2000 07:38:29 -0800 Message-ID: <3A366482.47D836D2@lvcm.com> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:46:42 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n)" Cc: "Guille (bisho)" , Mark Koopman , GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work "Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n)" wrote: > > Even though some new systems do have True Type fonts installed by default > (including Arial), most of the systems do NOT have them, and do use > helvetica as the standard font. Therefore i do agree with something like: > > > > or possibly (and thinking about the windows users visiting gnome.org > (which will be a lot, as they are already)), including verdana, with > > Don't forget to add a default type *style* in case NONE of these fonts are available: Michael Bernstein. From jdub@aphid.net Tue Dec 12 10:44:40 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail003.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail003.syd.optusnet.com.au [203.2.75.251]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66C652CA8C for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:44:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (sdcax52-213.dialup.optusnet.com.au [198.142.206.213]) by mail003.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBCFhCw08603 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 02:43:24 +1100 Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 293DC3CA8; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 02:42:50 +1100 (EST) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 02:42:49 +1100 From: Jeff Waugh To: GNOME-web-list Subject: Correct specification of fonts Message-ID: <20001213024249.D3391@aphid.net> Mail-Followup-To: Jeff Waugh , GNOME-web-list References: <3A365581.775D5846@lvcm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from fboliv@student.dei.uc.pt on Tue, Dec 12, 2000 at 03:21:58PM +0000 X-Message: Leenooks, Lienucks, Leenoos, Lienus, Let's call the whole thing off. X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.0-test11 i686 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > a) Best not to specify specific fonts without defining a fallback style. Add "sans-serif" to that list. I must interject though - who cares about fonts at this stage? Shouldn't we be discussing structure? > In my oppinion (and also considering fonts), i think 8pt fonts are a good > size for such a web page because they are not too small, but also not big > at all, and do fit any resolution nicely from 640x480 to 1900... I'd like > to know what you guys think about this size. (Note that this is the > equivalent to font size 1) b) Font sizes should always be specified in web-relative notation, or if you're pushing it, pixels (but very rarely, and only for special purposes). Specifying by point is a big no-no. - Jeff (patiently awaiting Radagast's white paper to pore over) -- jdub@aphid.net --------------------------------- http://linux.conf.au/ -- "Life is short. Forgive quickly. Kiss slowly." - Robert Doisneau From dennisle@swbell.net Tue Dec 12 10:58:59 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.29]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B693F2DC91 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:58:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from swbell.net ([208.191.12.195]) by mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0G5G008S3PMNTA@mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net> for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:56:47 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:56:29 -0700 From: Dennis Lee Subject: Re: GNOME comp To: "Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n)" Cc: Michael Bernstein , "Guille (bisho)" , Mark Koopman , GNOME-web-list Message-id: <3A3658BD.8090608@swbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001018 X-Accept-Language: en References: Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n) wrote: > Even though some new systems do have True Type fonts > <...> > In my oppinion (and also considering fonts), i think 8pt fonts are a good > size for such a web page because they are not too small, but also not big > at all, and do fit any resolution nicely from 640x480 to 1900... I'd like > to know what you guys think about this size. (Note that this is the > equivalent to font size 1) _Please_ do not spec some tiny size font (like 8 point)! Fonts to small to read are one of the first complaints I hear about surfing with Linux. Sure spec-ing a font size can make page lay out pleasing to look at. But it is more importaint that our customers are able to read the page. Leave font size out of the css or the pages markup; all font size will do is cause grief, so many system display font sizes differently that font size is a bad can of rotten worms we can do with out. Dennis > >>>> I installed an RH6.2 distrib about 6 months that has Arial. Arials been >>>> around >>>> along time, i think we can expect users have it. >>>> i'm sure someone can prove me wrong though :) >>> >>> The equivalent of Arial in Unix and Mac machines would be Helvetica. >>> So I would propose to use >> From fboliv@student.dei.uc.pt Tue Dec 12 11:17:35 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from student.dei.uc.pt (student.dei.uc.pt [193.137.203.231]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CA4F2DCF9 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:17:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (fboliv@localhost) by student.dei.uc.pt (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBCG9ZA00896; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:09:35 GMT Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:09:35 +0000 (WET) From: "Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n)" To: Michael Bernstein Cc: "Guille (bisho)" , Mark Koopman , GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp In-Reply-To: <3A366482.47D836D2@lvcm.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Michael Bernstein wrote: > "Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n)" wrote: > > > > Even though some new systems do have True Type fonts installed by default > > (including Arial), most of the systems do NOT have them, and do use > > helvetica as the standard font. Therefore i do agree with something like: > > > > > > > > or possibly (and thinking about the windows users visiting gnome.org > > (which will be a lot, as they are already)), including verdana, with > > > > > > Don't forget to add a default type *style* in case NONE of > these fonts are available: > > > > Michael Bernstein. > True, thanks for the correction. How do you guys feel about 8pt or size 1 fonts? I'd like to hear about that. ======================================== Frederico Oliveira - aka kript0n Email: kript0n@boxnetwork.net kript0n@mail.box.sk fboliv@student.dei.uc.pt irc.box.sk:6667 -> #neworder ========================================= From webmaven@lvcm.com Tue Dec 12 11:21:11 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams3.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.77]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F23B2DF32 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:21:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.192.168]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Tue, 12 Dec 2000 08:22:02 -0800 Message-ID: <3A366EB7.116C8A5@lvcm.com> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:30:15 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: digitect@mindspring.com Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME comp References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work digitect@mindspring.com wrote: > > > I usually use > > Yikes! Double-dog-ditto my previous comments on Arial for Verdana (proprietary (perhaps even MS), non-standard to most Linux distributions). While it is true that Verdana is an MS product, it is free (though not Free). It has the advantage of being one of the few high-quality typefaces specifically designed for screen resolutions (which increases legibility). Specifying it in this way IN NO WAY introduces a dependency on the typeface. It will simply be used preferentially if available. Anyone who has gone to the trouble of adding it to THEIR SYSTEM will appreciate the attention to detail, and those who have not will not have their experience degraded in any way. I would however draw the line at stating on the site "This site best viewed using MS Verdana" ;-) That would be wrong :-) Michael Bernstein. P.S. The Gnome Foundation could commission a professional type designer (probably for about 30k or so) to design Free high-quality Serif and Sans-Serif typefaces, but this isn't something that will happen soon. I think Mathew Carter (Verdana's designer) spent a year designing Verdana for Microsoft. As a candidate designer, Zusana Licko comes to mind: http://www.emigre.com/bios/zlicko.html From webmaven@lvcm.com Tue Dec 12 11:29:01 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams1.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.75]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E9922DF32 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:29:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.192.168]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Tue, 12 Dec 2000 08:32:28 -0800 Message-ID: <3A367077.59D0646E@lvcm.com> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:37:43 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeff Waugh Cc: GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: Correct specification of fonts References: <3A365581.775D5846@lvcm.com> <20001213024249.D3391@aphid.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Jeff Waugh wrote: > > I must interject though - who cares about fonts at this stage? Shouldn't we > be discussing structure? I would, but my position (that structure should be primarily subject-oriented) has proved unpopular, and it seems that the site structure is going to be task-oriented instead. So I don't have a lot to contribute to that discussion. Michael Bernstein. From fboliv@student.dei.uc.pt Tue Dec 12 11:30:38 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from student.dei.uc.pt (student.dei.uc.pt [193.137.203.231]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A45972D43B for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:30:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (fboliv@localhost) by student.dei.uc.pt (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBCGEgC02403; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:14:42 GMT Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:14:42 +0000 (WET) From: "Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n)" To: Dennis Lee Cc: Michael Bernstein , "Guille (bisho)" , Mark Koopman , GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp In-Reply-To: <3A3658BD.8090608@swbell.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Dennis Lee wrote: > _Please_ do not spec some tiny size font (like 8 point)! > Fonts to small to read are one of the first complaints I hear about > surfing with Linux. As a matter of fact, 8 pt is not small (i have designed a page's CSS (check http://geek.box.sk) with 8pt and it fits both *nix browsers (read netscape) and windows browsers (read netscape [again] and ie). However i don't think discussing font size is the most important thing to do at the moment. We should in fact be discussing things like the layout other than smaller details such as this one. Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n) Box Network Administration (www.boxnetwork.net) From digitect@mindspring.com Tue Dec 12 11:49:36 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53E302DCD0 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:49:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from smui02.slb.mindspring.net (smui02.slb.mindspring.net [199.174.114.25]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA05561 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:49:35 -0500 (EST) From: digitect@mindspring.com Received: by smui02.slb.mindspring.net id LAA0000030936; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:49:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:49:35 -0500 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Re: Correct specification of fonts Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: 208.150.104.72 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > Michael Bernstein wrote: > > digitect@mindspring.com wrote: > > > > > I usually use > sans-serif"> > > > > Yikes! Double-dog-ditto my previous comments on Arial > for Verdana (proprietary (perhaps even MS), non-standard > to most Linux distributions). > > While it is true that Verdana is an MS product, it is free > (though not Free). It has the advantage of being one of the > few high-quality typefaces specifically designed for screen > resolutions (which increases legibility). Specifying it in > this way IN NO WAY introduces a dependency on the typeface. > It will simply be used preferentially if available. Anyone > who has gone to the trouble of adding it to THEIR SYSTEM > will appreciate the attention to detail, and those who have > not will not have their experience degraded in any way. > > I would however draw the line at stating on the site "This > site best viewed using MS Verdana" ;-) That would be wrong > :-) While I appreciate the so-called "browserness" of Verdana, I find it a very wide font, which means that it spools paragraphs of text farther down the page and make navigation titles return into two lines. Again, I am very opposed to using non-standard (not to mention proprietary fonts and would hope we could use the serif or sans-serif font family instead. If we MUST use specific glyphs, I prefer: 1. Times 2. Helvetica 3. Arial 4. Tahoma (thinner than Verdana) Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From digitect@mindspring.com Tue Dec 12 11:50:29 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mclean.mail.mindspring.net (mclean.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.57]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DD992CE2D for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:50:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from smui02.slb.mindspring.net (smui02.slb.mindspring.net [199.174.114.25]) by mclean.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA13568 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:50:26 -0500 (EST) From: digitect@mindspring.com Received: by smui02.slb.mindspring.net id LAA0000032505; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:50:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:50:25 -0500 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Correct specification of fonts Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: 208.150.104.72 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > Michael Bernstein wrote: > > Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > > I must interject though - who cares about fonts at this stage? Shouldn't we > > be discussing structure? > > I would, but my position (that structure should be primarily > subject-oriented) has proved unpopular, and it seems that > the site structure is going to be task-oriented instead. So > I don't have a lot to contribute to that discussion. > > Michael Bernstein. > Michael, I completely agree with you on this (which explains my recent font discussion contributions, too) but I haven't given up on using a subjective structure yet. (I always wonder if list decisions are made by consensus or verbosity.) From mlee@andrews.edu Tue Dec 12 11:57:45 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from andrews.edu (roonwit.cs.andrews.edu [143.207.1.21]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FB052CE2D for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:57:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from orion.cc.andrews.edu (orion.cc.andrews.edu [143.207.5.12]) by roonwit.cs.andrews.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA24129; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:57:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by orion.cc.andrews.edu (8.8.8+Sun) id LAA12435; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:57:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:57:31 -0500 (EST) From: Martin Lee To: Jeff Waugh Cc: GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: Correct specification of fonts In-Reply-To: <20001213024249.D3391@aphid.net> Message-ID: <%yOlN64AKE@orion.cc.andrews.edu> X-Mailer: Fir 4.0beta (SunOS) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > I must interject though - who cares about fonts at this stage? Shouldn't we > be discussing structure? Very true. Although there needs to be some thought as to the font, I think that the site should be designed first and a font chosen because it works well with the design and is part of the design. If sans-serif goes with the design, then use sans-serif. Font selection should be an implementation of the design. > > > In my oppinion (and also considering fonts), i think 8pt fonts are a good > > size for such a web page because they are not too small, but also not big > > at all, and do fit any resolution nicely from 640x480 to 1900... I'd like > > to know what you guys think about this size. (Note that this is the > > equivalent to font size 1) I preffer to use px sizes when using font styles, and find that some smaller font sizes will view fine (although small) in IE, but are close to unreadable in Netscape. I find that 10px - 12px is usually a good size - depending on what the content is. I think however, we should be focusing on brainstorming ideas for navagation, navagation items, page elements, layout, and the flow of the site. When I made up the comp (http://www.infovariant.com/mlee/g.gif) I wasn't sure what links we would need and what important information needs to be profiled on the from page. Design will be much easier once this is known. The layout I have separates the navagation into two separate types - beginner (a person new to GNOME, member of the press, windows users etc...) and expert (developer, gnome fanatic, regular users that are familiar with linux). This navigation is quite prominent on the home page, but once the user goes to a subpage, the navigation and logo will shrink to the top and side to minimize page real-estate used, giving more focus on the content. Anyway, that's my thought for the morning. From tslukka@alpha.hut.fi Tue Dec 12 13:38:08 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from relay1-us.simplemente.net (relay1.us.simplemente.net [216.167.121.82]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF8A42BB92 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:38:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from tiku.hut.fi (tiku.hut.fi [130.233.228.86]) by relay1-us.simplemente.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE97ED782A for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:38:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from alpha.hut.fi (tslukka@alpha.hut.fi [130.233.224.50]) by tiku.hut.fi (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA28669 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 20:37:56 +0200 (EET) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 20:37:56 +0200 (EET) From: Tuomo Lukka To: GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n) wrote: > On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Dennis Lee wrote: > > > _Please_ do not spec some tiny size font (like 8 point)! > > Fonts to small to read are one of the first complaints I hear about > > surfing with Linux. > > As a matter of fact, 8 pt is not small (i have designed a page's CSS > (check http://geek.box.sk) with 8pt and it fits both *nix browsers (read > netscape) and windows browsers (read netscape [again] and ie). Are you trying to say that "http://geek.box.sk/" is not using small font ?? I have RedHat 6.1 + Netscape 4.7x running on 1024 * 768 display, and this is how I see your web-page: http://titanic.tky.hut.fi/images/font_shot.jpg Please, take a look and remenber that even though it is possible that my system is "corrupt", I am using all settings a they were left after installing the whole thingie and probably there are also others who see this page like me.. So, please don't use small fonts, they are impossible to read some of us. Tuomo Lukka PS: If someone can tell why the hell my browser shows the page like that, please tell me! -------------------------------------------------------------------- In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded. Big Bang Theory. ********** *** The Web : http://titanic.tky.hut.fi/ ********** *** (http://www.iki.fi/luigi/) *** *** E-Mail : Luigi@iki.fi [Use this] *** *** *** *** Tel. : 09-4683042 [Home] *** ******** : 040-5389759 [Mobile] *** * ******** : 010-5322196 [Work] -------------------------------------------------------------------- From john@backspace.com Tue Dec 12 14:15:59 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1EDC2DDE2 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:15:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from [63.27.34.20] (1Cust20.tnt8.nyc3.da.uu.net [63.27.34.20]) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA16114 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:15:53 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: john@mail.backspace.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:28:54 -0500 To: GNOME-web-list From: John Emerson Subject: another GNOME comp Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work I like Martin's 4 quadrant idea, but I'm not sure how it would extend to other sections of the site. Also, it does seem a bit premature to be putting together comps without a finalized structure. Any news on that document, Joakim? Is there anything we can do to help? In any case, here's a comp of my own: http://backspace.com/gnome1.gif (I couldn't find the proper font for the GNOME title, but you get the general idea.) - John From wkurdzio@cslab.vt.edu Tue Dec 12 14:33:21 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from labrador.cslab.vt.edu (labrador.cslab.vt.edu [198.82.184.22]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FB152BB92 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:33:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from lemon.cslab.vt.edu (lemon.cslab.vt.edu [198.82.184.69]) by labrador.cslab.vt.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA21657 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:32:46 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wkurdzio@cslab.vt.edu) Received: from localhost (wkurdzio@localhost) by lemon.cslab.vt.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA13790 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:30:37 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wkurdzio@lemon.cslab.vt.edu) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:30:37 -0500 (EST) From: Wes Kurdziolek To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Small font sizes while browsing in Linux Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Netscape typically renders fonts two points smaller than specified, so 10pt is a good selection -- not too big in IE and Konquerer and not too small in Netscape. FYI: If you think your fonts are too small in X, make sure your 100dpi font directories are listed before your 75dpi font directories in your XF86Config file. -- Wes Kurdziolek Virginia Tech Computer Science Lab UNIX System Administrator E-mail: wkurdzio@cslab.vt.edu Voice: +1 (540) 231-3457 Office: 116A McBryde From dennisle@swbell.net Tue Dec 12 14:44:43 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.29]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DED12E0B7 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:44:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from swbell.net ([208.191.12.195]) by mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0G5G00KYCZCP4I@mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net> for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:26:50 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:26:33 -0700 From: Dennis Lee Subject: Re: GNOME comp To: Tuomo Lukka Cc: GNOME-web-list Message-id: <3A3689F9.9090105@swbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001018 X-Accept-Language: en References: Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Tuomo Lukka wrote: > On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n) wrote: > > >> On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Dennis Lee wrote: >> >> >>> _Please_ do not spec some tiny size font (like 8 point)! >>> Fonts to small to read are one of the first complaints I hear about >>> surfing with Linux. >> >> As a matter of fact, 8 pt is not small (i have designed a page's CSS >> (check http://geek.box.sk) with 8pt and it fits both *nix browsers (read >> netscape) and windows browsers (read netscape [again] and ie). > > > Are you trying to say that "http://geek.box.sk/" is not using small font ?? > I have RedHat 6.1 + Netscape 4.7x running on 1024 * 768 display, and this > is how I see your web-page: http://titanic.tky.hut.fi/images/font_shot.jpg > > Please, take a look and remenber that even though it is possible that my > system is "corrupt", I am using all settings a they were left after > installing the whole thingie and probably there are also others who see > this page like me.. So, please don't use small fonts, they are impossible > to read some of us. > Tuomo Lukka > > PS: If someone can tell why the hell my browser shows the page like that, > please tell me! There is nothing wrong with your system. Thats just the best Netscape 4.7 can display such a small font; at that display resultion; mine looks the same and I have true type fonts installed. There are some things you could to do in order to read the page, but why, it is the web site thats broken in my book. This is the kind of thing we can avoid by not setting a font size. Dennis From john@backspace.com Wed Dec 13 00:11:01 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtppop3pub.verizon.net (smtppop3pub.gte.net [206.46.170.22]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94E8A2D1D3 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 00:11:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net (smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.39.156]) by smtppop3pub.verizon.net with ESMTP for ; id XAA76968712 Tue, 12 Dec 2000 23:06:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from [151.202.83.231] (adsl-151-202-83-231.nyc.adsl.bellatlantic.net [151.202.83.231]) by smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA28372 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 00:10:28 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: john@mail.backspace.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 00:23:33 -0500 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org From: John Emerson Subject: another GNOME comp, 2 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work This one with a little more color: http://backspace.com/gnome2.gif - John From digitect@mindspring.com Wed Dec 13 00:18:24 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from hall.mail.mindspring.net (hall.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.60]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C599F2D1D3 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 00:18:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4d1.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.161]) by hall.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA02867; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 00:18:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <007601c064c4$40ccb8e0$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: , "John Emerson" References: Subject: Re: another GNOME comp, 2 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 00:19:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > This one with a little more color: > http://backspace.com/gnome2.gif I like your previous one better. How about the GNOME warm gray instead of the yellow? From robin@noname4us.com Wed Dec 13 00:51:41 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from first.noname4us.com (first.noname4us.com [212.247.87.60]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4088F2D1D3 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 00:51:41 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 4552 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2000 05:52:00 -0000 Received: from robin.int.noname4us.com (HELO sarah.) (192.168.128.12) by first.noname4us.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 2000 05:52:00 -0000 From: Robin Ericsson Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 05:51:31 GMT Message-ID: <20001213.5513100@sarah.> Subject: Re: another GNOME comp, 2 To: John Emerson Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mozilla/3.0 (compatible; StarOffice/5.2;Linux) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On 12/13/00, 6:23:33 AM, John Emerson wrote regardi= ng=20 another GNOME comp, 2: > This one with a little more color: > http://backspace.com/gnome2.gif I prefer this layout before the other one, but colors and stuff is to = early to decide I think...=20 R. From mandreiana@rdsnet.ro Wed Dec 13 03:02:40 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail.rdsnet.ro (mail.rdsnet.ro [193.231.236.16]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 18C1D2DF4D for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 03:02:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 18700 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2000 08:04:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO rdsnet.ro) (212.93.133.179) by mail.rdsnet.ro with SMTP; 13 Dec 2000 08:04:14 -0000 Message-ID: <3A372D1B.8F0C12C7@rdsnet.ro> Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 10:02:35 +0200 From: Marius Andreiana Organization: Web Development Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: Correct specification of fonts References: <3A365581.775D5846@lvcm.com> <20001213024249.D3391@aphid.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > > > Aren't cascading stylesheets used for fonts, colors, etc, stored in a separate file ? Shouldn't use tag at all, only CSS. -- Marius Andreiana From fboliv@student.dei.uc.pt Wed Dec 13 04:53:04 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from student.dei.uc.pt (student.dei.uc.pt [193.137.203.231]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5D612CE26 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 04:52:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (fboliv@localhost) by student.dei.uc.pt (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBD9oTl09546; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:50:29 GMT Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:50:28 +0000 (WET) From: "Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n)" To: Dennis Lee Cc: Tuomo Lukka , GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: GNOME comp In-Reply-To: <3A3689F9.9090105@swbell.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > PS: If someone can tell why the hell my browser shows the page like that, > > please tell me! > > There is nothing wrong with your system. Thats just the best Netscape > 4.7 can display such a small font; at that display resultion; mine looks > the same and I have true type fonts installed. There are some things you > could to do in order to read the page, but why, it is the web site thats > broken in my book. > > This is the kind of thing we can avoid by not setting a font size. Well, as a matter of fact, you do see it small, but it is a netscape navigator limitation. You guys could try and set font sizes between -1 and 7 on a test page and tell me which one looks good on 4.7 (imho, none does actually look good). And notice that true type fonts are not the deal here (remember that not everybody on *nix has a true type font server by default). About the "broken in my book" part.. heh, what book? and who broke it? :) Oh, mornings are like this... -- Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n) Box Network (www.boxnetwork.net) Admin and Webmaster From fboliv@student.dei.uc.pt Wed Dec 13 04:55:58 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from student.dei.uc.pt (student.dei.uc.pt [193.137.203.231]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71E452CE26 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 04:55:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (fboliv@localhost) by student.dei.uc.pt (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBD9sgq09963; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:54:42 GMT Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:54:42 +0000 (WET) From: "Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n)" To: Marius Andreiana Cc: GNOME-web-list Subject: Re: Correct specification of fonts In-Reply-To: <3A372D1B.8F0C12C7@rdsnet.ro> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Marius Andreiana wrote: > Aren't cascading stylesheets used for fonts, colors, etc, stored in a > separate file ? > Shouldn't use tag at all, only CSS. Of course we should use CSS. But thats not actually the point at this moment. The point is choosing an acceptable font that displays nicely on every OS and browser. So don't actually worry much about tags because they probably won't exist. Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n) Box Network (www.boxnetwork.net) Admin and Webmaster From menthos@menthos.com Wed Dec 13 12:09:25 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from kobra.efd.lth.se (kobra.efd.lth.se [130.235.34.36]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D69782E043 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 12:09:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from menthos.com (E405.sparta.lu.se [194.47.241.12]) by kobra.efd.lth.se (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id eBDH9N913526 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 18:09:23 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <3A37AD70.8080103@menthos.com> Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 18:10:08 +0100 From: Christian Rose User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16-22 i686; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001205 X-Accept-Language: sv, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Correct specification of fonts References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Maybe not using pixels or points but the non-specific sizes that CSS provides is somewhat "cleaner" (http://www.eskimo.com/%7Ebloo/indexdot/css/properties/font/fontsize.htm). Of course, it is still a question if we should use "medium", "small", or "x-small". In my personal experience, many developing only for Windows are using "xx-small" but that is completely unreadable on Linux with default settings. "x-small" or "small" are readable though. "medium" is probably too big. Christian Fred Oliveira (aka kript0n) wrote: >> Aren't cascading stylesheets used for fonts, colors, etc, stored in a >> separate file ? >> Shouldn't use tag at all, only CSS. > > Of course we should use CSS. But thats not actually the point at this > moment. The point is choosing an acceptable font that displays nicely on > every OS and browser. So don't actually worry much about tags > because they probably won't exist. From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Wed Dec 13 15:50:34 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 648632E46E for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 15:50:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id OAA184382 (8.9.1/50); Wed, 13 Dec 2000 14:49:55 -0600 Message-Id: <200012132049.OAA184382@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: another GNOME comp, 2 From: Ryan Muldoon To: John Emerson Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 14 Dec 2000 00:51:12 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work This design is a nice generic website design, but it has nothing saying "This is GNOME" Gnome has a fairly well-defined aesthetic that the site needs to represent. There is a GNOME palette, and gnome-looking graphics. We should keep this in mind. --Ryan > > This one with a little more color: > http://backspace.com/gnome2.gif > > > - John > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-web-list mailing list > gnome-web-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-web-list 9 From sopwith@redhat.com Wed Dec 13 16:03:20 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (host156.207-175-42.redhat.com [207.175.42.156]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E22552BC26 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 16:03:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (sopwith@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBDL3JH15517 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 16:03:19 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: devserv.devel.redhat.com: sopwith owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 16:03:18 -0500 (EST) From: Elliot Lee X-Sender: To: Subject: Re: another GNOME comp, 2 In-Reply-To: <200012132049.OAA184382@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On 14 Dec 2000, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > There is a GNOME palette, and gnome-looking graphics. Since when? There is only tradition, and tradition can be changed at will (for precedent, look at the latest www.gnome.org, which used none of the "brown" colors of previous web sites). Let your imagination run wild, -- Elliot "The Pythagorean Theorem employed 24 words, the Lord's Prayer has 66 words, Archimedes Principle has 67 words, the 10 Commandments have 179 words, the Gettysburg Address had 286 words, the Declaration of Independence, 1,300 words and finally the European Commission's regulation on the sale of cabbage: 26,911 words." From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Wed Dec 13 16:42:06 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3BA52E4AD for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 16:39:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id PAA200176 (8.9.1/50); Wed, 13 Dec 2000 15:39:13 -0600 Message-Id: <200012132139.PAA200176@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: another GNOME comp, 2 From: Ryan Muldoon To: Elliot Lee Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 14 Dec 2000 01:40:30 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > On 14 Dec 2000, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > > > There is a GNOME palette, and gnome-looking graphics. > > Since when? > > There is only tradition, and tradition can be changed at will (for > precedent, look at the latest www.gnome.org, which used none of the > "brown" colors of previous web sites). > > Let your imagination run wild, Sure, there are no official GNOME colors. But there is a tradition. Personally, I really don't like the colors of the current website, or the blue swoosh things, or the "computing made easy". Why? It didn't make me think of GNOME. Look at Apple's website. Or Microsoft's. Or Be's. All of them have an interface that is similar to that of the GUI. To me, that is a good thing. I think Helixcode's website does an excellent job of this - gnome.org should strive to do the same. The website should be pushing the platform - to do that, you need to show the "mood" of gnome. To me, part of gnome's appeal is its aesthetic. Maybe I'm alone in that. In my experience designing websites, those that are successful push the mood of the content. The framework should be so good, it is transparent to the user. --Ryan From gbreland@healthtech.net Wed Dec 13 10:06:54 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from ahtmail.healthtech.net (mail.healthtech.net [208.137.134.227]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF5432E27A for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 10:06:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by AHTMAIL with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:01:58 -0600 Message-ID: <102E310E554DD411B9BC006008F6053C079536@AHTMAIL> From: Greg Breland To: GNOME-web-list Subject: RE: Correct specification of fonts Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:01:58 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Why do we have to find a font that displays nicely on each browser. Why not have browser detect code that will deliver the correct CSS to each browser? This will be important to make the page accessible by lynx, IE3,IE$, NN4 and such. Then have a generic CCS1-2 for IE5.x, NN6.x, Opera Basically, the pages would be usable by older browsers, but might not look the best. This does not include the front page, which needs to look consistent in each browser. Once you get away from the front page and into the content, accessibility is more important than consistent appearance as long as the appearance is readable. Greg > ..... The point is choosing an acceptable font that > displays nicely on > every OS and browser. So don't actually worry much about tags > because they probably won't exist. From john@backspace.com Wed Dec 13 23:55:22 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net (smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.39.156]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E49CE2E149 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 23:55:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from [151.202.183.68] (adsl-151-202-183-68.nyc.adsl.bellatlantic.net [151.202.183.68]) by smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA28205 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 23:55:16 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: john@mail.backspace.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 00:08:24 -0500 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org From: John Emerson Subject: another GNOME comp, 3 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Here's a little more GNOME'ish: http://backspace.com/gnome3.gif I know, I know, it says "Get GNOME" three times... but this is all just brainstorming while we wait for a finalized structure. - John From digitect@mindspring.com Thu Dec 14 01:03:39 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B2732BCDC for ; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 01:03:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf2re.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.139.110]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA30664 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 01:03:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <025001c06593$964cfe40$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: Subject: Structure v.0.1-5 (estimate) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 01:03:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Ok, you guys are going to shoot me for this verbosity, but since discussion on structure has waned a bit lately, I thought I'd toss in my list to date. Below is basically an exhaustive collection of our statements up until now along with my editorial comments at no extra charge. (Well, you do have to read them. ;) Not trying to step on Joakim's forthcoming proposal, just thought it would be helpful to revisit the content list in the meantime. As I've droned before, my feelings are to aim the site at two main groups: Users and the Developer Community... ______________________________________________________________________ USER - Assumes the user has a system with GNOME already installed and properly maintained via distribution installation, a System Administrator or a third party commercial delivery system such as HelixCode or Eazel. Or perhaps a Windows user just wanting to know what Linux is and ended up here because our art is cool. Probably not interested in joining the GNOME community yet, just wants productivity from the desktop. Enough educational/marketing material needs to exist here to enable the later transition to contributor if desired. * Introduction (What is GNOME?) - Intro Docs - A few important documents here like "What is a desktop?" and "Is it like Windows?" - Screenshots - Bugs - I've found a bug, what do I do? (Great opportunity to expose the developer side.) * Headlines - Information and articles of general interest only. Things like "Number of GNOME users increasing" and "Bob explains metathemeing." * Help/UsrDocs - Quick start - GNOME users guide - Tutorials - Links . GNU . HelixCode/Easel/etc. . Themes - Published books * Press/Marketing - Lecture circuit - Other appearances (Radio, TV, print) - Calendar * Support - Here's where we fork into the Commercial v. do it yourself (developer.gnome.org) argument and begin to present the user with the benefits of rolling his own. (Leads naturally onto the Developer side.) * (Download) - Shouldn't exist on the user side. Reasoning: Does GNOME really want to distribute software for the average or newbie user? I doubt that we will ever have the resources or desire to create a delivery system as useful or efficient as the commercial companies for a typical user. Why go to all the trouble? Although I believe that GNOME should always be available from the GNOME site (!), I think we will do better explaining how the basic desktop components work for the user here and point experienced users to the Developer side to obtain specific rpms and src files for the extended range of software. We need to focus on helping the user with the core desktop (calculator, calendar, applets, etc.) and all of this stuff will probably be installed for him already. Remember, he doesn't have root access and isn't capable of compiling source anyway. ______________________________________________________________________ DEVELOPER COMMUNITY - Perhaps this is where our community really begins. Up until this point, the user is interested in just getting GNOME to work and finding out what it can do. But if he's impressed enough to dig deeper, and perhaps tries a dual boot installation on his home computer, then he'll need the support of the larger community. To me, that's entry level on the developer side which then expands to the full depth. * News (Developer) - Software update list - Gnotices - Project of the week * Docs, Developer - Contribution - Philosophical stuff only, directs through to projects (below) - White papers - FAQs - Mailing lists - Newsgroups/Threads? * Contacts - Developers (Advogado-like?) - Mail contact - IRC * Software map - Flexible listing by date, category, authors, etc. - CVS * Bug management - perhaps attached to the software database? * Projects/Communities - Components - GTK+ - Glade - Pango - Gimp - Office - GDP - UI Hitsquad - Sound - Icons - Graphics - Advocacy - Testing - Translation * Foundation stuff - charter - foundation meeting minutes - board members, with contact info - advisory board info - application form for membership From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Thu Dec 14 11:59:21 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8F0B2BABE for ; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 11:59:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 146biu-0005dn-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 17:59:17 +0100 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 11:56:57 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Design document [Draft 1] Message-ID: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work So, here's the much anticipated design document draft. There are a couple of pieces missing, and it'll require quite a bit of discussion, but I think I've created something that will be a decent starting point. When replying, please consider trimming extensively, just quoting the exact pieces you're commenting on, and try to keep it compact. This thread can get very extensive if we don't. Also, if you have several long comments to different parts, consider replying in two different mails. ----- GNOME WEBSITES - DESIGN DOCUMENT Draft 1 Joakim Ziegler TABLE OF CONTENTS 1. Introduction 2. Audience and goals 3. Navigation structure/usability 4. Graphical design 5. Localization 6. Technology 1. Introduction This is a draft design document for the GNOME websites. It's based on the discussion on gnome-web-list@gnome.org, as well as my own personal suggestions/preferences. Don't take things here as written in stone, this is mostly intended as a starting point for discussion. The structure of the document is fairly general, and is designed to accommodate most changes, so we won't have to go around changing the actual structure, just the content of the sections. It's a lot easier that way. 2. Audience and goals The GNOME websites span a rather large range of audiences (and corresponding goals), including users, developers, members of the press, representatives of companies considering supporting GNOME, and so on. The goals can be broken down as follows: 2.1 Marketing GNOME One of the primary goals of the GNOME websites, specifically www.gnome.org, is to market GNOME towards people who don't have it installed yet. Even though GNOME is well on its way to becoming a de facto standard desktop environment for GNU/Linux users, there is still a rather large group out there who are not yet using it (not to mention all the users of other Unices, as well as Windows and MacOS). Primary tools for doing this is the www.gnome.org frontpage (body text), as well as sections specifically designed to market GNOME to new users (the "Find out what GNOME is" section of the current site is a good example, although there should be more). 2.2 Providing GNOME news There is a lot happening in the GNOME community, and people want a place to get informed about the latest news. news.gnome.org fills this function rather well, but currently suffers from being poorly integrated with the rest of the GNOME sites (visually and content-wise). The base features of the current news.gnome.org are good, though: Posting of articles with followup discussion, along the lines of Slashdot. 2.3 Informing users Users need a wide variety of information. New users should have easy access to introductory documentation, tutorials, installation howtos, FAQs and so on. More experienced users should be able to find detailed documentation, troubleshooting guides, pointers to software of different types, etc. The user-oriented documentation could possibly be arranged around where the user is in the GNOME pipeline: Getting ready to install - Installing - Running it the first time - Learning to use it efficiently - Getting more software. 2.4 Educating developers developer.gnome.org is the prime resource for GNOME developer information. Since we're also managing the www.gtk.org assets, we're in a rather unique position to make developer.gnome.org into a one-stop site for all g-prefixed development information. Most of the current content is excellent, although it could benefit from somewhat better organization and navigational structure. Types of content: Technology overviews/whitepapers, tutorials, API docs, high-level guidelines. 2.5 Informing the press GNOME is getting massive press coverage lately. Even when our handling of press contacts has been low quality, slow, or non-existent, we've gotten excellent press. It's clear that we could get even more press coverage if we were slightly more aggressive in our handling of these matters. At the moment, our press resources mainly consists of a list of e-mail addresses, one for general press inquiries, a couple of corporate ones, and some for press contacts local to specific countries. Ideally, we should have a complete press kit online. It should include all the stuff journalists normally ask for when they contact gnome-press-contact@gnome.org, such as a brief description and history of the project, the structure of the GNOME foundation, representative screenshots, publicity shots of central people in the organization, and so on. 2.6 Informing ISVs and other corporate entities We've traditionally been rather bad at addressing the information needs of corporate entities specifcally. They've mostly been forced to browse the standard information on the site, and then post their inquiries to mailing lists. While the information needs of companies vary a lot, we should at least make an effort to address their basic needs. Information about the GNOME foundation advisory board, companies currently working with and supporting GNOME, and so on will be helpful. Generally, this is about marketing GNOME to potential corporate backers, as well as informing them. 3. Navigation structure/usability The navigational structure for the GNOME sites is by no means a given. There has been a lot of discussion, particularly about the top-level division of areas, where there have been suggestions for task-oriented, user group oriented, and subject oriented navigation, as well as variations over these three basic themes. My current proposal is to use a task/subject hybrid structure, with user group oriented navigation as an alternative method of access. That is, the main categories of the navigation tree are task/subject oriented, and we present a small menu in a sidebar or similar on the frontpage for users to navigate by user group, which leads to one page per user group, with a collection of links that's relevant for that group. That still leaves the problem of creating the top-level categories. It's very easy to either overspecialize the categories, and end up with too many (anything over 10-12 is too many, in reality) or create too broad categories that are unintuitive. I created 12 categories which I believe are rather intuitive for the user, and span all the information we want to place on the GNOME sites. I've not created the actual structure beneath each toplevel category, as I think it's not entirely clear yet what things we actually *want*, however I believe this structure is general enough that it'll be able to hold whatever we want to put into it. The order of this list might be illogical. 3.1 Top-level structure About Introductory documents. Mainly for those unfamiliar with GNOME in general, and who want a quick way to figure out what this is all about. Includes the a "What is GNOME" document, the general GNOME FAQ, and also documents for companies interested in supporting GNOME, the project roadmap, etc. Screenshots An important link to have on the front page, since this is what a lot of people look for. Idea for structure: Split it up into several different types of screenshots, like "Basic", "Businesslike", "Applications", "Oddities", etc. Perhaps make screenshots imagemaps which can be clicked to bring you to the appindex page of each displayed application? Get it Describe the various ways to get and install GNOME. CVS, GNOME FTP servers, Linux distributions which include GNOME, and Helix GNOME would all be relevant pointers here. It's a matter of resources how much we want to actually support all of this, but we should at least have instructions for how to get, build and install GNOME from CVS and GNOME FTP. Support How to get help with GNOME. All the documentation should be here, as well as pointers to mailing lists, bugzilla, IRC channels, etc. News Gnotices in some shape or form. Basically newsitems with discussion. Software A revamped, expanded version of the Appindex. Should let you search for software in a variety of ways, including category, file types it'll read and write (very practical for all the people who come onto IRC and say "What GNOME program can read a .foo file?", and so on. Possibly also an equivalence index, where people can say "I need something like Outlook", and it'll take you to Evolution. Developer Entry for the developer minded. Basically the combined content of today's developer.gnome.org and www.gtk.org. Press All the info members of the press would need to represent GNOME in a correct manner. Journalists work under time constraints, so this is where we have the chance to give them all the info they need in one neat package. Should include a press kit (possibly in PDF format), a list of contact mail addresses and phone numbers (I know, phone numbers are so 1985, but some journalists prefer them), press photos (preferably, each press contact listed should have a downloadable high-resolution photo for the press to use when interviewing), representative screenshots (of the nice and simple variety), and so on. The press kit itself should be a brief presentation of GNOME, talking about the project history, the foundation, the current status, what corporate backers there are, etc. Foundation All the formal stuff about the foundation, how a company can join the advisory board, current board of directors, board meeting minutes, and so on. The exact content of this section should be up to the people more directly involved with the foundation, I believe. Contact Ways to contact the GNOME project and the members, for various purposes. This should definitely be broken down by task, so that bug reports can be directed to bugzilla, press inquiries to the press section, etc. Events An events calendar, listing upcoming tradeshows where GNOME will be present, as well as scheduled upcoming releases. People Developer index, developer interviews (I'd like to resurrect that section, even though I only ever did one interview, I think it was a good one, and it's a great way to show the faces behind the software. Actually, it's such a good idea that KDE cloned it off our site), and so on. 3.2 Other navigation methods, shortcuts into the structure, etc. The structure outlined above is a reasonable main navigational structure, but one structure will never fit everyone. Hence, I'm suggesting augmenting it with a few metastructures that will mainly be accessible through the front page: Role description Allow people to choose who they are from a small menu (about ten items, perhaps), and arrive on a page of quick links for the group they chose. The links go directly into the structure, and are the ones we believe are useful for that group, in the order they should be read. Quick tasks Allow people to choose a few typical tasks from a menu, and go directly to those pages. These should be the 4-8 pages people visit the most, but that are still not logical to make into top-level categories. Things that spring to mind as obvious candidates are "Report a bug", "I need help!", etc. Search the site A search box on the front page is a necessity, and should search the entire site. 4. Graphical design There have been several quick sketches of the web site look and feel on the list lately. There seems to be considerable agreement on several aspects of the graphical design. I've tried to sum up those here, as well as inject some common sense rules, and some opinions of my own, of course. 4.1 Colors and typefaces High contrast is easier to read than low contrast. Dark text on a light background is easier to read than the opposite. It seems clear that we should use black text on white or light pastel backgrounds throughout the site, to keep readability as high as possible. This doesn't, however, exclude the occasional use of light-on-dark for menus with reasonably few items, etc. Typefaces on the web are a difficult problem. While technologies like CSS give decent control over what typefaces the browser chooses to use, there's no good, standardized and open method for downloading typefaces, hence one is limited mainly to specifying sans-serif or serif fonts. Sans fonts are widely used because they look cleaner, however, serifs theoretically increase readability, if rendered correctly, but font rendering in web browsers, especially under X, is abysmal. Thus, it might be worth considering using a sans font for the GNOME sites. 4.2 Headlines and icons For maintainability, headlines should be text only. The current design uses graphics for some text (most notably the menus), and this has proven to be difficult to maintain and update. Even though there are techniques for generating images of text on the fly and caching them, we should try to avoid this as much as possible. It would be good to integrate some icons into the site, since GNOME has very attractive icons on the desktop, etc. However, keeping the site light on graphics is probably a good idea, and since icons would have to be specially created for the site, it's dangerous to rely on them (if we had an icon per section, adding a new section would entail finding an icon artist to do another icon in the style of the existing ones). 4.3 Navigation bars and menus There are basically two main layouts used for the main navigation bars (navigating the main hierarchy). One, which has been the standard for most sites for a very long time, is the "Along the left side of the page" vertical menu. The advantages are that we can include basically as many items as we want, since vertical is the axis people are used to scrolling on anyway. The disadvantage is that subnavigation is difficult to integrate intuitively (most attempts use an indenting system, which tends to make the menu very wide). The other, which has become more common lately, is the stacked horizontal navbars along the top of the page. The advantages of this is that revealing several levels of navigation is very easy and intuitive, by adding bars below each other, The disadvantage is that it's somewhat limiting in the number of items that can be included on each level of navigation. Personally, I've come to prefer the stacked horizontal bars, if they're practical given the navigation structure, for a number of reasons. They stay out of the way a lot more than the vertical menu (since the vertical menus usually means wrapping the whole content in a table and putting the menu in a table cell to the left of it, so that there's essentially a strip of blank space all the way down below the menu bar), it takes up less screen realestate in general, and it's a model most people are comfortable with. We could optionally also include "breadcrumbs" to make finding out exactly where you are in the structure simpler (breadcrumbs are the category > subcategory > current page used on for instance yahoo.) If we use horizontal stacked bars, I suggest we place the alternate navigation methods (user group based, quick links, search) in a column along one of the sides of the frontpage, possibly in little boxes. 5. Localization We've amply discussed this. I'm going to write a section on it, but I believe it's not vital right now, and I really want to just get this document out there. 6. Technology Technology should be decided after a few days of discussion and fleshing out of the sections above. ----- -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From duane@extrawebs.com Thu Dec 14 12:00:20 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail.bartnet.net (mail.bartnet.net [38.197.168.6]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DD7E2E093 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 12:00:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from Duane (pool-216-209.bartnet.net [38.194.216.209]) by mail.bartnet.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA12392; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 11:06:18 -0600 Message-ID: <002001c065ef$3742fce0$03000004@Duane> From: "Duane Richards" To: "Ryan Muldoon" Cc: "gnome web list" References: <200012132139.PAA200176@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: another GNOME comp, 2 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 10:59:18 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work My name is Duane Richards, I've followed this list for several weeks now and I am interested in contributing some code and experience to the gnome website. I think that this is where we need to start and I agree with Ryan that the interface should be as seamless as possible between the gnome desktop and the website if possible even to the level of inheriting some features of the users desktop settings. For example there are different themes that can be applied to gkrellm and the desktop windows themselves. Could we allow these same themes to be applied to certain areas of the website? I also agree that we should try and keep the overall 'mood' of the original design and to model Helixcode's site would not be a bad thing. duane ----- Original Message ----- From: Ryan Muldoon To: Elliot Lee Cc: Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 2:40 PM Subject: Re: another GNOME comp, 2 > > On 14 Dec 2000, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > > > > > There is a GNOME palette, and gnome-looking graphics. > > > > Since when? > > > > There is only tradition, and tradition can be changed at will (for > > precedent, look at the latest www.gnome.org, which used none of the > > "brown" colors of previous web sites). > > > > Let your imagination run wild, > > > > Sure, there are no official GNOME colors. But there is a tradition. > Personally, I really don't like the colors of the current website, or > the blue swoosh things, or the "computing made easy". Why? It didn't > make me think of GNOME. Look at Apple's website. Or Microsoft's. Or > Be's. All of them have an interface that is similar to that of the > GUI. To me, that is a good thing. I think Helixcode's website does an > excellent job of this - gnome.org should strive to do the same. The > website should be pushing the platform - to do that, you need to show > the "mood" of gnome. To me, part of gnome's appeal is its > aesthetic. Maybe I'm alone in that. In my experience designing > websites, those that are successful push the mood of the content. The > framework should be so good, it is transparent to the user. > > > --Ryan > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-web-list mailing list > gnome-web-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-web-list From ryan@devnut.com Sat Dec 16 13:27:18 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from web.olypen.com (olypen.com [208.200.248.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 294DC2BAB1 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 13:27:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from devnu(ppp-58.olypen.com[208.238.207.62]) (813 bytes) by web.olypen.com via sendmail with P:smtp/R:inet_hosts/T:smtp (sender: ) id for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 10:32:29 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2.0.109 1999-Oct-27 #15 built 1999-Dec-15) From: "Ryan Christensen" To: "Gnome Web List" Subject: RE: Design document [Draft 1] Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 10:23:50 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 In-Reply-To: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work I'm going to work on a reply to this that I'll send off later tonight.. however, it looks great! Ryan >... From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sat Dec 16 16:38:53 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3ED9F2BAB1 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 16:38:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147P2t-0006to-00; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 22:39:12 +0100 Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 16:36:43 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Cc: tigert@helixcode.com Subject: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org, tigert@helixcode.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work [I'm Cc:ing this to Tuomas, since I'm unsure if he's on this list, and he's had more to do with GNOME's visual image through the ages than anyone else, so I'd love to hear his opinion] I was playing with some GNOME site mockups today. Nothing even close to finished yet, more like an exercise for myself, to see what sort of structures worked, and if I came up with something that "clicked". And I started thinking: What colors are representative of GNOME? We've had quite a few color schemes on GNOME web pages, varying both through time and from site to site. I've put up a little comparison chart, with the current www.kde.org colors included for reference, at: http://www.avmaria.com/colorschemes.png So what do we want for the new GNOME pages? There are obviously certain things that are given (and I've mentioned them in the design document draft), such as legibility dictating probably black body text on white background for the main text of the site, but beyond that, it's fairly open. Personally, I'd like the color scheme we use to be strong (the current www.gnome.org pages are fairly strong, but I was a little wussy in my choice of the pastels, on the other hand, the old GNOME page, and Gnotices, has a very strong red that I like, but the other colors are very weak), and distinctive (I ended up playing with blues in my new mockups, since blues are very safe, but they're also very KDE, so we should probably stay away). I'm wondering what people are seeing as GNOME colors. What colors "say" GNOME to you? It'd be great if people came up with simple color comps before we started doing actual site mockups. Just make an image with the colors you think we should use put beside each other. It can be even more simple than the ones I've done in my overview. It'd be great to come up with the following, at least: Background color, body text color, link colors, alternate background color (for boxes, etc) with the text colors to be applied on the alternate background, and a couple of accent and emphasis colors. There can be more, but these are the minimum colors a scheme should have to be flexible enough to fit the entire site. If you can't be bothered to make some color comps, please follow up to this thread with some thoughts about colors that you feel fit GNOME. When we have some agreement on this, it should go in the design document. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Sat Dec 16 17:55:30 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 494552CE02 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 17:55:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id QAA36840 (8.9.1/50); Sat, 16 Dec 2000 16:55:22 -0600 Message-Id: <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: GNOME colors From: Ryan Muldoon To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org, tigert@helixcode.com In-Reply-To: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 17 Dec 2000 02:56:31 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work While I don't have the time to do a color comp at the moment (finals), I'd like to put in my thoughts on the web site's color scheme: 1. Pastels should go away - They appear nowhere in gnome artwork. In my mind, they are almost the opposite of the general gnome aesthetic concept. 2. Reds, Browns, Yellows, dark green, and greyscale seem to be the most used colors in gnome artwork. I think the website should reflect this. 3. I am partial to continuing in the Tigert tradition for artwork - it is the distinctive GNOME feel. 4. The background-oriented colors should be subdued and earthy (yellow, white, grey, light brown), and then use the stronger colors for text (black), links (red/rust/maroonish, dark green) and content. As I've said before, the helixcode.com website did a good job of reflecting the GNOME feel - we should try to do similarly (but not use the same look, obviously). I think it is important to reflect the feel of the GUI while we are promoting it. While in general primary colors are nice and strong and such, they have little to do with the GNOME look and feel. It's important to consider this when we are making the website. People should be immediately be able to tell that it is the GNOME website, and not something else. --Ryan From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Sat Dec 16 18:04:24 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C8602CE02 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 18:04:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id RAA100834 (8.9.1/50); Sat, 16 Dec 2000 17:04:17 -0600 Message-Id: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] From: Ryan Muldoon To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 17 Dec 2000 03:05:26 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work My thoughts (for now) are about sections 2 and 3: > > 2. Audience and goals > > The GNOME websites span a rather large range of audiences (and corresponding > goals), including users, developers, members of the press, representatives of > companies considering supporting GNOME, and so on. The goals can be broken > down as follows: > I think one of the main goals should be the issue of integrating new members of the GNOME community. What I mean by this is encouraging people to get involved in improving GNOME. The best way to accelerate the rate of improvement of GNOME is to get more people involved. > 3. Navigation structure/usability To further my suggested goal, I think that we should have a "get involved" (or "projects of the week") top level link. This would basically lead to a section of the website that lists needed tasks from each of the various projects. conceivably it could include teh bugzilla link to the wishlist item. It would also have a contact email address for each task. These projects would let people wishing to contribute to quickly get started doing little things without much effort overhead. I think that this is really very important: GNOME should try and integrate as many new members as it can. We should push the fact that we're an open project that welcomes newcomers (as is stated in the GNOME foundation charter). If we want to push it even more, we can publish the accomplishments of new members in the "People" section that you propose, to give people a fame incentive to participate. --Ryan From jdub@giardia.yourweb.com.au Sat Dec 16 18:23:42 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from giardia.yourweb.com.au (giardia.yourweb.com.au [61.8.3.32]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EBAB2D711 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 18:11:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by giardia.yourweb.com.au (Postfix, from userid 609) id 9747B17BB1; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:11:54 +1100 (EST) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:11:54 +1100 From: Jeff Waugh To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] Message-ID: <20001217101154.D17103@giardia.yourweb.com.au> References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 03:05:26AM +0500 X-Message: Leenooks, Lienucks, Leenoos, Lienus, Let's call the whole thing off. X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.17 i686 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > I think one of the main goals should be the issue of integrating new > members of the GNOME community. What I mean by this is encouraging > people to get involved in improving GNOME. The best way to accelerate > the rate of improvement of GNOME is to get more people involved. > > To further my suggested goal, I think that we should have a "get > involved" (or "projects of the week") top level link. Absolutely. On top of Dan Meuth's "Getting Involved" document, this will help immensely, and is important enough to put on the front page. In fact, a whole section of the website could be devoted to new projects, people, things to do, etc. We just need maintainers. :) Good call, Ryan! - Jeff -- jdub@aphid.net --------------------------------- http://linux.conf.au/ -- ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI. From digitect@mindspring.com Sat Dec 16 19:35:31 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7FC92D61F for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 19:31:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4ek.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.212]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA02795; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 19:31:24 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001001c067c0$aec4f8e0$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: "Ryan Muldoon" Cc: References: <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: GNOME colors Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 19:31:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Wow. I couldn't agree more. You beat me to saying this. That. What he said. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ryan Muldoon" To: "Joakim Ziegler" Cc: ; Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 4:56 PM Subject: Re: GNOME colors > > 1. Pastels should go away - They appear nowhere in gnome artwork. In my > mind, they are almost the opposite of the general gnome aesthetic > concept. > > 2. Reds, Browns, Yellows, dark green, and greyscale seem to be the most > used colors in gnome artwork. I think the website should reflect this. > > 3. I am partial to continuing in the Tigert tradition for artwork - it > is the distinctive GNOME feel. > > 4. The background-oriented colors should be subdued and earthy (yellow, > white, grey, light brown), and then use the stronger colors for text > (black), links (red/rust/maroonish, dark green) and content. > > While in general primary colors are nice and strong and such, they have > little to do with the GNOME look and feel. It's important to consider > this when we are making the website. People should be immediately be > able to tell that it is the GNOME website, and not something else. > From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sat Dec 16 19:51:54 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A51AF2BBE4 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 19:51:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147S3g-0000xx-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 01:52:15 +0100 Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 19:49:04 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] Message-ID: <20001216194904.D21146@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 03:05:26AM +0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 03:05:26AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: >> The GNOME websites span a rather large range of audiences (and corresponding >> goals), including users, developers, members of the press, representatives of >> companies considering supporting GNOME, and so on. The goals can be broken >> down as follows: > I think one of the main goals should be the issue of integrating new > members of the GNOME community. What I mean by this is encouraging > people to get involved in improving GNOME. The best way to accelerate > the rate of improvement of GNOME is to get more people involved. I agree that participation should be encouraged. People who've read "The Mythical Man-Month" might disagree with the "The best way to accelerate the rate of improvement of GNOME is to get more people involved" statement, though. Specifically, I'm not sure if we *need* to make this a major goal. After all, the percentage of web site users that are even potential contributors is extremely small, and new contributors join GNOME every day, without the current website appealing specifically to them. It's an aspect that should be considered, but personally, I find it a lot more important to communicate well to users, and to the press. >> 3. Navigation structure/usability > To further my suggested goal, I think that we should have a "get > involved" (or "projects of the week") top level link. This would > basically lead to a section of the website that lists needed tasks from > each of the various projects. conceivably it could include teh bugzilla > link to the wishlist item. It would also have a contact email address > for each task. These projects would let people wishing to contribute to > quickly get started doing little things without much effort overhead. I > think that this is really very important: GNOME should try and integrate > as many new members as it can. We should push the fact that we're an > open project that welcomes newcomers (as is stated in the GNOME > foundation charter). This would be well served by a link in the list of "quick links" on the frontpage, I think. "Get involved" is not terribly suited to be a top-level navigation category, as it would either be too broad (by including everything that could be related to getting involved) or too narrow (specific howto type documents). > If we want to push it even more, we can publish the accomplishments of > new members in the "People" section that you propose, to give people a > fame incentive to participate. This is a good idea. It runs into the problem of knowing when someone actually enters the community, though. Most people drift around for a bit and get gradually involved. Of course, we could do this with people who made a substantial contribution (code, translation, whatever) for the first time. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sat Dec 16 20:05:06 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B2FA2BCE2 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 20:05:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147SGR-0002RN-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 02:05:28 +0100 Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 20:02:12 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 02:56:31AM +0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 02:56:31AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > While I don't have the time to do a color comp at the moment (finals), > I'd like to put in my thoughts on the web site's color scheme: > 1. Pastels should go away - They appear nowhere in gnome artwork. In my > mind, they are almost the opposite of the general gnome aesthetic > concept. I agree about the pastels. However, I think it's dangerous to invoke a "GNOME aestetic concept", since there's no such concept, in reality, it's mostly a coincidence, and caused by Tuomas doing a large part of the original icons and so on. Interestingly, the icons Tuomas has been doing lately (for instance for Evolution) have less of the brownish, earthy colors. > 2. Reds, Browns, Yellows, dark green, and greyscale seem to be the most > used colors in gnome artwork. I think the website should reflect this. > 3. I am partial to continuing in the Tigert tradition for artwork - it > is the distinctive GNOME feel. > 4. The background-oriented colors should be subdued and earthy (yellow, > white, grey, light brown), and then use the stronger colors for text > (black), links (red/rust/maroonish, dark green) and content. > As I've said before, the helixcode.com website did a good job of > reflecting the GNOME feel - we should try to do similarly (but not use > the same look, obviously). I think it is important to reflect the feel > of the GUI while we are promoting it. I agree in principle, although I'm not sure it's necessarily a very healthy restriction to impose. For instance, the current www.gnome.org site doesn't follow the GNOME icon color scheme at all, while the old www.gnome.org site did. I think there's little disagreement that the current site is a vast improvement over the old one. Additionally, some of the colors in the GNOME color scheme (especially as used on the old site) are plain bad, visually. Low-saturation greyish browns are extremely dreary colors (while reducing the contrast of the entire site, and thus the readability). There are also different goals for the visual design of a desktop people are supposed to use for 10 hours a day, every day, and a website that serves as an information and promotion channel for that same desktop. Specifically, you have a much shorter time to make and impression, so being less subdued (in color use, design, etc.) is necessary to capture the user and build brand recognition. > While in general primary colors are nice and strong and such, they have > little to do with the GNOME look and feel. It's important to consider > this when we are making the website. People should be immediately be > able to tell that it is the GNOME website, and not something else. Well, I agree that brand recognition is nice. However, as it stands, GNOME has practically no brand at all, beyond the desktop itself (and modelling a web site strictly over a desktop is a very bad idea). Rather than assuming that we should let the look of the desktop dictate the look of the website, I think it would be reasonable to have a back and forth effect. We're in a position to break new ground and make the best GNOME site ever. If the choice stands between a good site that has a strong visual bond to the desktop, and a great site that breaks some of those conventions, I'll go for the great one any day. In short, I'm fine with using the GNOME icon inspired colors, if we can build a great website on it. But I'm not willing to make it the deciding factor in what the final site is going to look like. There are other, more important priorities. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From jdub@giardia.yourweb.com.au Sat Dec 16 20:14:49 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from giardia.yourweb.com.au (giardia.yourweb.com.au [61.8.3.32]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A03D62BEAB for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 20:14:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by giardia.yourweb.com.au (Postfix, from userid 609) id C1ABA17E89; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 12:14:46 +1100 (EST) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 12:14:46 +1100 From: Jeff Waugh To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001217121446.B32045@giardia.yourweb.com.au> References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 02:56:31AM +0500 X-Message: Leenooks, Lienucks, Leenoos, Lienus, Let's call the whole thing off. X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.17 i686 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > 1. Pastels should go away - They appear nowhere in gnome artwork. In my > mind, they are almost the opposite of the general gnome aesthetic > concept. They appear on the Gnome website. :) I think the pastels got a tough review - and for the wrong reasons. Can you remember the old site? Sure, it had "coder's tables" and murky layout, but the colours? Choosing colours for the website is essentially one of the steps in branding Gnome. Do you want to be stuck with dreary, earthy, dank tones, or something upbeat, sleek and futurey? (Terrible marketing words, I know...) > 2. Reds, Browns, Yellows, dark green, and greyscale seem to be the most > used colors in gnome artwork. I think the website should reflect this. Where is this "Gnome artwork"? The Foot? The icons? Stuff stuck in our minds from days gone by? All those browns lead to murky, not perky (good god, now I'm rhyming) - perhaps we should discuss wider branding ideas with the Foundation. > 3. I am partial to continuing in the Tigert tradition for artwork - it > is the distinctive GNOME feel. "What happens if Linus is run over by a bus?" ==> s/Linus/tigert/ The Gnome look'n'feel is already progressing - see the work on Red Carpet, Helix Setup Tools, Evolution, Nautilus... Not much brown in there! :D All the interfaces are going *funky*, not muddy. (My little brother asked if Gnomes wiped their feet after putting their footprints in the website background...) Warm yellows (Helix bubble-buttons) and subtle use of burgundy, with the light Gnome-feet off-whites as shading is looking interesting. I'll do a colour comp in a minute. > People should be immediately be able to tell that it is the GNOME > website, and not something else. That's defintely true - but we can 'remake tradition' at this point too. :) - Jeff -- jdub@aphid.net --------------------------------- http://linux.conf.au/ -- ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI. From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Sat Dec 16 20:29:58 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 339372BBE4 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 20:29:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id TAA233604 (8.9.1/50); Sat, 16 Dec 2000 19:29:44 -0600 Message-Id: <200012170129.TAA233604@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] From: Ryan Muldoon To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20001216194904.D21146@helixcode.com> References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216194904.D21146@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 17 Dec 2000 05:30:52 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > I think one of the main goals should be the issue of integrating new > > members of the GNOME community. What I mean by this is encouraging > > people to get involved in improving GNOME. The best way to accelerate > > the rate of improvement of GNOME is to get more people involved. > > I agree that participation should be encouraged. People who've read "The > Mythical Man-Month" might disagree with the "The best way to accelerate the > rate of improvement of GNOME is to get more people involved" statement, though. > This has nothing to do with "The Mythical Man-Month" in my opinion. I am not talking about huge, key parts of projects to be offered up. I am talking about the simple, nice-to-have projecs that the core developers just don't have time to do. Think of the "Project of the Week" that Havoc Pennington used to do back when there were weekly status reports. > Specifically, I'm not sure if we *need* to make this a major goal. After all, > the percentage of web site users that are even potential contributors is > extremely small, and new contributors join GNOME every day, without the > current website appealing specifically to them. It's an aspect that should be > considered, but personally, I find it a lot more important to communicate > well to users, and to the press. > I really think we do need to make this a major goal. We should be lowering the barrier to entry for participation as much as we can. I think if we can make it nearly trivial to find a little something to do for GNOME, someone who is looking to kill a few hours might do it, and end up wanting to contribute more in the future. GNOME can get all the press in the world, but to really make it, it needs an enthusiastic community behind it. People like the fact that when they look at the back of RedHat boxes, they see their work in one of the screenshots. If we can make this easy, it helps that many more people contribute. > >> 3. Navigation structure/usability > > > To further my suggested goal, I think that we should have a "get > > involved" (or "projects of the week") top level link. This would > > basically lead to a section of the website that lists needed tasks from > > each of the various projects. conceivably it could include teh bugzilla > > link to the wishlist item. It would also have a contact email address > > for each task. These projects would let people wishing to contribute to > > quickly get started doing little things without much effort overhead. I > > think that this is really very important: GNOME should try and integrate > > as many new members as it can. We should push the fact that we're an > > open project that welcomes newcomers (as is stated in the GNOME > > foundation charter). > > This would be well served by a link in the list of "quick links" on the > frontpage, I think. "Get involved" is not terribly suited to be a top-level > navigation category, as it would either be too broad (by including everything > that could be related to getting involved) or too narrow (specific howto type > documents). > The "Get Involved" or "Projects of the Week" (which is probably a better name) shouldn't be categories, you're right. I used some poor wording. What I meant was that it should be a link that appears on every page: a main link. It won't be linking to "howtos" either - it would go to a page that lists little, easy to understand projects that could use doing. For instance: translating something, or writing documentation for a little applet, or coding a part of something, or making an applet, etc. > > > If we want to push it even more, we can publish the accomplishments of > > new members in the "People" section that you propose, to give people a > > fame incentive to participate. > > This is a good idea. It runs into the problem of knowing when someone > actually enters the community, though. Most people drift around for a bit and > get gradually involved. Of course, we could do this with people who made a > substantial contribution (code, translation, whatever) for the first time. > It could just be done when a new person does one of the projects of the week. Easy to figure that out. --Ryan From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Sat Dec 16 20:46:41 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A36AD2BAB8 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 20:46:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id TAA129434 (8.9.1/50); Sat, 16 Dec 2000 19:46:23 -0600 Message-Id: <200012170146.TAA129434@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: GNOME colors From: Ryan Muldoon To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 17 Dec 2000 05:47:32 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 02:56:31AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > > While I don't have the time to do a color comp at the moment (finals), > > I'd like to put in my thoughts on the web site's color scheme: > > > 1. Pastels should go away - They appear nowhere in gnome artwork. In my > > mind, they are almost the opposite of the general gnome aesthetic > > concept. > > I agree about the pastels. However, I think it's dangerous to invoke a "GNOME > aestetic concept", since there's no such concept, in reality, it's mostly a > coincidence, and caused by Tuomas doing a large part of the original icons > and so on. Interestingly, the icons Tuomas has been doing lately (for > instance for Evolution) have less of the brownish, earthy colors. > I really do think that there is a given palette that people think of when they think of GNOME. The Evolution icons still are using reds, greyscale, and yellow, and a bit of brown, so I don't know what you mean.....they are still consistent with the previous icons. > > 2. Reds, Browns, Yellows, dark green, and greyscale seem to be the most > > used colors in gnome artwork. I think the website should reflect this. > > > 3. I am partial to continuing in the Tigert tradition for artwork - it > > is the distinctive GNOME feel. > > > 4. The background-oriented colors should be subdued and earthy (yellow, > > white, grey, light brown), and then use the stronger colors for text > > (black), links (red/rust/maroonish, dark green) and content. > > > As I've said before, the helixcode.com website did a good job of > > reflecting the GNOME feel - we should try to do similarly (but not use > > the same look, obviously). I think it is important to reflect the feel > > of the GUI while we are promoting it. > > I agree in principle, although I'm not sure it's necessarily a very healthy > restriction to impose. For instance, the current www.gnome.org site doesn't > follow the GNOME icon color scheme at all, while the old www.gnome.org site > did. I think there's little disagreement that the current site is a vast > improvement over the old one. > well, in some respects yes, but in others, I think it is much worse. The older websites weren't as fancy, etc, and used tables poorly, but they got some things right. The blue swoosh things on the current website are just wastes of screen real estate, and don't match the normal GNOME colors. The menus are graphics rather than text, which is not wise for many reasons. Their colors are also odd. The "Computing Made Easy" slogan I also think is bad. But having a white background is nice, as it is clean looking. > Additionally, some of the colors in the GNOME color scheme (especially as > used on the old site) are plain bad, visually. Low-saturation greyish browns > are extremely dreary colors (while reducing the contrast of the entire site, > and thus the readability). There are also different goals for the visual > design of a desktop people are supposed to use for 10 hours a day, every day, > and a website that serves as an information and promotion channel for that > same desktop. Specifically, you have a much shorter time to make and > impression, so being less subdued (in color use, design, etc.) is necessary > to capture the user and build brand recognition. > > I think that you are ignoring the fact that you can still easily produce contrast. Those low saturation colors are extremely suitable for things in the background - muted highlighting, etc. Black and white, and proper use of reds will give us plenty of contrast. I am by no means suggesting that we put brown text on a yellow background - that is just silly. Black text on a white background should be a given. However, I think that having the "decorative" parts of the site being somewhat muted is an advantage rather than a disadvantage. It doesn't distract the user's eyes from the content. This is something that people who need to get at information appreciate. How can you buiild brand recognition if the colors/feel you use have nothing to do with the product? > > While in general primary colors are nice and strong and such, they have > > little to do with the GNOME look and feel. It's important to consider > > this when we are making the website. People should be immediately be > > able to tell that it is the GNOME website, and not something else. > > Well, I agree that brand recognition is nice. However, as it stands, GNOME > has practically no brand at all, beyond the desktop itself (and modelling a > web site strictly over a desktop is a very bad idea). Rather than assuming > that we should let the look of the desktop dictate the look of the website, I > think it would be reasonable to have a back and forth effect. We're in a > position to break new ground and make the best GNOME site ever. If the choice > stands between a good site that has a strong visual bond to the desktop, and > a great site that breaks some of those conventions, I'll go for the great one > any day. > I am not suggesting that we organize the site as we would a desktop. they are two different media. However, I don't think that the website should influence the desktop either - I don't know how you would do this in the first place. I think that the "tigert" feel is rather nice. I am one of those people that use their computer for 10 hours a day, so I appreciate the aesthetic quality. One ot the reasons I enjoy using GNOME so much is that it is rather attractive and sophisticated feeling. If we were to make a "great" GNOME website with magenta and orange, I would call it a poor GNOME website. In my experience, there is a difference between a great generic website and a great branded website. > In short, I'm fine with using the GNOME icon inspired colors, if we can build > a great website on it. But I'm not willing to make it the deciding factor in > what the final site is going to look like. There are other, more important > priorities. > I just want to make sure that we website actually represents GNOME. That should be the most important deciding factor. I'm sure you agree with me.....perhaps we just see different ways of arriving at that goal. --Ryan From digitect@mindspring.com Sat Dec 16 21:05:29 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D6CD2BAB8 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:05:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4ek.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.212]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA28032; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:05:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: "Joakim Ziegler" , References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> Subject: Re: GNOME colors Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:05:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work From: "Joakim Ziegler" Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 9:02 PM Subject: Re: GNOME colors > I think there's little disagreement that the current site is a vast > improvement over the old one. I'm not sure I would agree. One of the things I first noticed about GNOME was the softer tone of the web site. I tire of getting hit with primaries and contrast at every page I go to, and the old GNOME site was a refreshing change. (No offense intended Joakim, just my preference.) > > Additionally, some of the colors in the GNOME color scheme (especially as > used on the old site) are plain bad, visually. Low-saturation greyish browns > are extremely dreary colors (while reducing the contrast of the entire site, > and thus the readability). There are also different goals for the visual > design of a desktop people are supposed to use for 10 hours a day, every day, > and a website that serves as an information and promotion channel for that > same desktop. Specifically, you have a much shorter time to make and > impression, so being less subdued (in color use, design, etc.) is necessary > to capture the user and build brand recognition. This is *definitely* a matter of aesthetic opinion. What you say is "dreary" I think is easy on the eyes. Fact is, when you stare at a monitor 10 hours a day, a slightly lower intensity and contrast is more desirable. (Not too much of course, just a little.) Also, I don't care about making a visual splash and capturing the casual visitor to the site through theatrics. GNOME is better. That's why you would want to use it. Let's make the site *clear*, useful and navigable and let the user judge for himself whether or not GNOME is better. Sooner or later, flash runs out of steam, and they'll go on to something else. There's a saying in architecture: "If you can't make it good, make it big. If you can't make it big, paint it red." Let's just make it good. > Well, I agree that brand recognition is nice. However, as it stands, GNOME > has practically no brand at all, beyond the desktop itself (and modelling a > web site strictly over a desktop is a very bad idea). Rather than assuming > that we should let the look of the desktop dictate the look of the website, I > think it would be reasonable to have a back and forth effect.... I agree, with the caveat that the desktop is basically so flexible that it doesn't really have a look (especially with upcoming meta-themeing flexibility). *Except* for the icons ... ... which is why I'm a big proponent of keeping the site very minimal (of color) except for the desktop art we choose to use. It expresses the aesthetic of GNOME better than anything else. Ok, now my turn. Try these on: http://www.mindspring.com/~steve_hall/gnome/comp-stevehall03.htm http://www.mindspring.com/~steve_hall/gnome/comp-stevehall02d.htm (This one is *not* intended to be a real proposal, just a way of testing icons against a gray on charcoal scheme.) The first test comp is obviously neutral. But as you can see from the developer alternative, with neutrality comes flexibility. If we make the main GNOME site's colors too strong, the myriad related application and project sites will have much more of a struggle to maintain/create their own identity while still incorporating some flavor of the central GNOME site. Take the current site's "pastels". Anybody else using them? Of course not, because it's too strong to be identifiable as anything other than the main site. I guess I'm trying to say that these pages, like the desktop, is a canvas on which many projects and applications are painted. It isn't supposed to stand out, just be a good supporting structure. Let's keep it clear and somewhat neutral. It can still be kickin if the composition is proportional and we express style through the subtler things. Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Sat Dec 16 21:06:15 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0814B2BAB8 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:06:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id UAA128390 (8.9.1/50); Sat, 16 Dec 2000 20:05:42 -0600 Message-Id: <200012170205.UAA128390@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: GNOME colors From: Ryan Muldoon To: Jeff Waugh Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20001217121446.B32045@giardia.yourweb.com.au> References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001217121446.B32045@giardia.yourweb.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 17 Dec 2000 06:06:50 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > > > 1. Pastels should go away - They appear nowhere in gnome artwork. In my > > mind, they are almost the opposite of the general gnome aesthetic > > concept. > > > They appear on the Gnome website. :) I think the pastels got a tough review > - and for the wrong reasons. Can you remember the old site? Sure, it had > "coder's tables" and murky layout, but the colours? > Right, but they shouldn't have been there. See my reply to Joakim about the current website vs. the old ones. > Choosing colours for the website is essentially one of the steps in branding > Gnome. Do you want to be stuck with dreary, earthy, dank tones, or something > upbeat, sleek and futurey? (Terrible marketing words, I know...) > Where in the GNOME desktop do you find sleek and futurey looking design/colors? I don't see much metallic sheen in my desktop. I rather like the calm, muted tones - and I know a great deal of others do as well. The website should reflect how the desktop is. > > 2. Reds, Browns, Yellows, dark green, and greyscale seem to be the most > > used colors in gnome artwork. I think the website should reflect this. > > > Where is this "Gnome artwork"? The Foot? The icons? Stuff stuck in our minds > from days gone by? All those browns lead to murky, not perky (good god, now > I'm rhyming) - perhaps we should discuss wider branding ideas with the > Foundation. > Do we want the KDE-style "perky" icons (that some might call overly bright and childish)? I don't know what you mean here. The "days gone by" are the foundation of what GNOME is today. They were a big reason why I started using GNOME in the .30 days (2 or 3 websites ago). I think we should keep on with the subtle and sophisticated look that GNOME has. > > 3. I am partial to continuing in the Tigert tradition for artwork - it > > is the distinctive GNOME feel. > > > "What happens if Linus is run over by a bus?" ==> s/Linus/tigert/ > Lots of people can and have made artwork in the tigert style. A friend of mine made a dozen or so, and I can't tell who made which ones. I think that a style shouldn't be dictated by more than one or two people........otherwise it isn't consistent. > The Gnome look'n'feel is already progressing - see the work on Red Carpet, > Helix Setup Tools, Evolution, Nautilus... Not much brown in there! :D All > the interfaces are going *funky*, not muddy. (My little brother asked if > Gnomes wiped their feet after putting their footprints in the website > background...) > Nautilus' Eazel theme definitely clashes with the rest of GNOME, and I think that is a mistake. Thankfully there are many other themes to use, some of which match rather nicely. I don't think that brown sums up the GNOME look....there are a lot of other colors that GNOME uses currently. I don't see how anything is muddy currently. But I would strongly advise against "funky." > Warm yellows (Helix bubble-buttons) and subtle use of burgundy, with the > light Gnome-feet off-whites as shading is looking interesting. I'll do a > colour comp in a minute. > we'll see......the bubble-buttons seem gratuitus to me, I was hoping that they wouldn't be there in the final version of Red Carpet. > > People should be immediately be able to tell that it is the GNOME > > website, and not something else. > > > That's defintely true - but we can 'remake tradition' at this point too. :) Well, to remake tradition, we would have to redo all of the existing artwork. Personally, I'm not up to the task. I'm sure that people would like to see your (or others') effort in this direction. I don't see how we can brand something when promotional material doesn't match the actual product. --Ryan From jdub@giardia.yourweb.com.au Sat Dec 16 21:48:28 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from giardia.yourweb.com.au (giardia.yourweb.com.au [61.8.3.32]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19DA62D623 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:47:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by giardia.yourweb.com.au (Postfix, from userid 609) id 420DA17E89; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:47:39 +1100 (EST) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:47:39 +1100 From: Jeff Waugh To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001217134739.C32045@giardia.yourweb.com.au> References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001217121446.B32045@giardia.yourweb.com.au> <200012170205.UAA128390@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012170205.UAA128390@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 06:06:50AM +0500 X-Message: Leenooks, Lienucks, Leenoos, Lienus, Let's call the whole thing off. X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.17 i686 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > Where in the GNOME desktop do you find sleek and futurey looking > design/colors? I don't see much metallic sheen in my desktop. All these words are heavily subjective - but there is a strong difference between "subtle" and "murky". The old Gnome site was murky, the new one is bold; it seems that there's interest in a middle-ground. But of desktops? Gnome is flexible enough to allow many styles - mine happens to be what I would call "sleek". Which is why... > The website should reflect how the desktop is. ... I think this is a fallacy - at least if by "reflect" you mean "look like". Gnome desktops are so diverse that choosing a website look'n'feel to integrate with a desktop feel so strongly is almost impossible. I'm not a fan of using desktop icons on the website, except for obvious highlights and cooperative illustration. Using them for navigation, etc., is not a great idea. How many websites reflect the look of their associated GUI? One: Apple's, and because they're so tied to it, because it's so visually strong itself, they can. > Do we want the KDE-style "perky" icons (that some might call overly > bright and childish)? I don't know what you mean here. I think the tigert-style Gnome icons are perky. The tiger shell, the mushroom - that's perk! :D They have a light, fun feeling. KDE's icons are just cardboard cutouts. > > "What happens if Linus is run over by a bus?" ==> s/Linus/tigert/ > > Lots of people can and have made artwork in the tigert style. There was a joke there. :) > Nautilus' Eazel theme definitely clashes with the rest of GNOME, and I > think that is a mistake. 8< snip 8< > we'll see......the bubble-buttons seem gratuitus to me, I was hoping > that they wouldn't be there in the final version of Red Carpet. Changing, progressing. > Well, to remake tradition, we would have to redo all of the existing > artwork. Heh. No, we'll just always have it as an influence on continuing change. The main point here is that the website shouldn't have an incredibly strong binding to the desktop. Different media, different styles, different presentations, etc. It has to work within the context of being a website - if that means being different to the multitudes of looks that our desktops may take, that's fine. - Jeff -- jdub@aphid.net --------------------------------- http://linux.conf.au/ -- ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI. From steve_hall@mindspring.com Sat Dec 16 21:16:43 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D4BD2BAB8 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:16:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4ek.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.212]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA17235 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:16:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <005701c067cf$6492b000$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "Steve Hall" To: Subject: IRC? Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:16:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Say, anybody interested in fleshing out ideas in IRC? Even if nobody's around right now, maybe we could schedule a regular session to hash stuff out. Would that be productive or just promote flameage? Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From steve_hall@mindspring.com Sat Dec 16 21:44:17 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 801E22BAB8 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:44:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4ek.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.212]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA22940 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:44:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <008b01c067d3$3e93ae00$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "Steve Hall" To: Subject: Re: GNOME colors Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:44:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > Ok, now my turn. Try these on: > > http://www.mindspring.com/~steve_hall/gnome/comp-stevehall03.htm > I forgot and uploaded this page with a Times font. I had been going back and forth--try this one for sans-serif (ahh, the beauty of style sheets, huh?): http://www.mindspring.com/~steve_hall/gnome/comp-stevehall02e.htm (Again, this is *not* intended to be a design proposal, just a color test with the icon art.) Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sat Dec 16 22:24:26 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 510712BAAA for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 22:24:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147URL-0004Vy-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 04:24:48 +0100 Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 22:22:14 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001216222214.F21146@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <200012170146.TAA129434@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012170146.TAA129434@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 05:47:32AM +0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 05:47:32AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > I really do think that there is a given palette that people think of > when they think of GNOME. > The Evolution icons still are using reds, greyscale, and yellow, and a > bit of brown, so I don't know what you mean.....they are still > consistent with the previous icons. They're not particularly brown, they're not particularly subdued in color (even using some orange arrows, etc.), and so on. I suggest you take a look at the screenshots. If anything, Tuomas' style is maintained in the style of drawing, not the colors. >> I agree in principle, although I'm not sure it's necessarily a very healthy >> restriction to impose. For instance, the current www.gnome.org site doesn't >> follow the GNOME icon color scheme at all, while the old www.gnome.org site >> did. I think there's little disagreement that the current site is a vast >> improvement over the old one. > well, in some respects yes, but in others, I think it is much > worse. The older websites weren't as fancy, etc, and used tables > poorly, but they got some things right. The blue swoosh things on the > current website are just wastes of screen real estate, and don't match > the normal GNOME colors. The menus are graphics rather than text, which > is not wise for many reasons. Their colors are also odd. The > "Computing Made Easy" slogan I also think is bad. But having a white > background is nice, as it is clean looking. Well, those might be your opinions, but the last redesign was met with roaring approval through all stages of the design, by the entire GNOME marketing group, and considered an improvement in all ways. The idea that adding space (and subsequently making it look better with graphical elements) is a waste of screen realestate is a seriously misguided one, as anyone versed in graphical design will tell you. The slogan was chosen by the GNOME marketing group, which included just about everyone relevant to GNOME marketing at the time, such as Elliot, Miguel, Bart, and quite a few others. To reiterate, you're entitled to your opinions, but it would be unwise to represent them as the one and only truth. > I think that you are ignoring the fact that you can still easily produce > contrast. Those low saturation colors are extremely suitable for things > in the background - muted highlighting, etc. Black and white, and > proper use of reds will give us plenty of contrast. I am by no means > suggesting that we put brown text on a yellow background - that is just > silly. Black text on a white background should be a given. However, I > think that having the "decorative" parts of the site being somewhat > muted is an advantage rather than a disadvantage. It doesn't distract > the user's eyes from the content. This is something that people who > need to get at information appreciate. > How can you buiild brand recognition if the colors/feel you use have > nothing to do with the product? Coca-Cola is black (well, dark brown). Yet, the label and all other marketing is red and white. Pepsi is the same color as coke, but their colors are mainly blues and whites, with some red. Etc. You're confusing the brand and the product, which is detrimental to both. The branding (and subsequently the website) has a completely different set of goals than what the look and feel of the desktop has. I outlined this in the previous mail as well. > I am not suggesting that we organize the site as we would a > desktop. they are two different media. However, I don't think that the > website should influence the desktop either - I don't know how you would > do this in the first place. I think that the "tigert" feel is rather > nice. I am one of those people that use their computer for 10 hours a > day, so I appreciate the aesthetic quality. One ot the reasons I enjoy > using GNOME so much is that it is rather attractive and sophisticated > feeling. If we were to make a "great" GNOME website with magenta and > orange, I would call it a poor GNOME website. In my experience, there > is a difference between a great generic website and a great branded > website. Well, you're not going to be using the website for 10 hours straight, that's my exact point. This is just one of the many ways in which a website differs from a desktop (the others being the goal of using it, the portion of screen realestate it takes up, the context (surfing around versus working), and in short just about everything else). >> In short, I'm fine with using the GNOME icon inspired colors, if we can build >> a great website on it. But I'm not willing to make it the deciding factor in >> what the final site is going to look like. There are other, more important >> priorities. > I just want to make sure that we website actually represents > GNOME. That should be the most important deciding factor. I'm sure you > agree with me.....perhaps we just see different ways of arriving at that > goal. There are plenty of ways a website can represent GNOME. The GNOME project founders and leaders felt that the current website represented GNOME very well, at the time I made it, and it has absolutely zero brown. As I said it before, if you can make a color scheme that uses what you fele are GNOME colors and make it an attractive, professional-looking, sleek site that will appeal to new users and veterans alike, by all means. But I repeat, I will not make it a deciding factor. The quality of the site in general, and the image it projects, is much more important. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sat Dec 16 22:37:29 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 067B22BAAA for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 22:37:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147Udy-00072U-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 04:37:51 +0100 Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 22:35:21 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001216223521.G21146@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001>; from digitect@mindspring.com on Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 09:05:25PM -0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 09:05:25PM -0500, digitect wrote: >> I think there's little disagreement that the current site is a vast >> improvement over the old one. > I'm not sure I would agree. One of the things I first noticed about GNOME > was the softer tone of the web site. I tire of getting hit with primaries > and contrast at every page I go to, and the old GNOME site was a refreshing > change. (No offense intended Joakim, just my preference.) See my mail to Ryan Muldoon for a comprehensive explanation of the background for the current www.gnome.org design. >> Additionally, some of the colors in the GNOME color scheme (especially as >> used on the old site) are plain bad, visually. Low-saturation greyish browns >> are extremely dreary colors (while reducing the contrast of the entire site, >> and thus the readability). There are also different goals for the visual >> design of a desktop people are supposed to use for 10 hours a day, every day, >> and a website that serves as an information and promotion channel for that >> same desktop. Specifically, you have a much shorter time to make and >> impression, so being less subdued (in color use, design, etc.) is necessary >> to capture the user and build brand recognition. > This is *definitely* a matter of aesthetic opinion. What you say is "dreary" > I think is easy on the eyes. Fact is, when you stare at a monitor 10 hours a > day, a slightly lower intensity and contrast is more desirable. (Not too > much of course, just a little.) As mentioned elewhere, you're not going to be staring at the GNOME website for 10 hours every day. Also, please read the literature on the impact of contrast on legibility and comprehension (Nielsen has a few good passages on this). > Also, I don't care about making a visual splash and capturing the casual > visitor to the site through theatrics. GNOME is better. That's why you would > want to use it. Let's make the site *clear*, useful and navigable and let > the user judge for himself whether or not GNOME is better. Sooner or later, > flash runs out of steam, and they'll go on to something else. There's a > saying in architecture: "If you can't make it good, make it big. If you > can't make it big, paint it red." Let's just make it good. If you have a good way of showing people the total spectrum of quality that GNOME represents in the 5-10 seconds a typical user will dedicate to the front page of an average site before he either gets interested or moves on, please let me know. Please do not erect strawman arguments like this. I'm clearly not arguing that we make it good-looking instead of good, I'm saying we do both. > Ok, now my turn. Try these on: > http://www.mindspring.com/~steve_hall/gnome/comp-stevehall03.htm Personally, I find these colors to be awfully bland and boring. Others might disagree. > http://www.mindspring.com/~steve_hall/gnome/comp-stevehall02d.htm (This one > is *not* intended to be a real proposal, just a way of testing icons against > a gray on charcoal scheme.) > The first test comp is obviously neutral. But as you can see from the > developer alternative, with neutrality comes flexibility. If we make the > main GNOME site's colors too strong, the myriad related application and > project sites will have much more of a struggle to maintain/create their own > identity while still incorporating some flavor of the central GNOME site. > Take the current site's "pastels". Anybody else using them? Of course not, > because it's too strong to be identifiable as anything other than the main > site. I don't think it's our goal to make a reusable design framework of some kind, which can be used by any random project site that happens to be related to GNOME. It might be a good idea to have such a framework, to make it easier for GNOME projects to create attractive and presentable web pages without too much work, but that's a separate effort from the main GNOME pages. There are many good reasons for *not* encouraging a spread/bastardization of the design, such as the confusion that would arise, with people potentially confusing random project sites and the main sites, possibly with content whose quality or reliability we can't vounch for, etc. This is known as brand dilution, and is considered a Bad Thing. So let's create this design with the GNOME sites in mind, not with generic project sites, for whose sake we need to be bland and nonintrusive. Gods know it's a big enough job as it is. > I guess I'm trying to say that these pages, like the desktop, is a canvas on > which many projects and applications are painted. It isn't supposed to stand > out, just be a good supporting structure. Let's keep it clear and somewhat > neutral. It can still be kickin if the composition is proportional and we > express style through the subtler things. As I've said countless times, feel free to create a wonderful site design using these colors. I'm still not willing to let the use or non-use of brown become a deciding factor in whether or not a design is "good enough for the GNOME sites". -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From digitect@mindspring.com Sun Dec 17 00:00:36 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23BF52DB51 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 00:00:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4ek.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.212]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA22112; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 00:00:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <013901c067e6$48ab51a0$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: "Joakim Ziegler" , References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001216223521.G21146@helixcode.com> Subject: Re: GNOME colors Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 00:00:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work All right everybody, at the risk of continuing a flamewar, I respectfully submit my rebuttals below... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joakim Ziegler" To: Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 11:35 PM Subject: Re: GNOME colors > On Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 09:05:25PM -0500, digitect wrote: > > >> I think there's little disagreement that the current site is a vast > >> improvement over the old one. > > > I'm not sure I would agree. One of the things I first noticed about GNOME > > was the softer tone of the web site. I tire of getting hit with primaries > > and contrast at every page I go to, and the old GNOME site was a refreshing > > change. (No offense intended Joakim, just my preference.) > > See my mail to Ryan Muldoon for a comprehensive explanation of the background > for the current www.gnome.org design. (which were): "Well, those might be your opinions, but the last redesign was met with roaring approval through all stages of the design, by the entire GNOME marketing group, and considered an improvement in all ways." Several points: 1. The marketing group's opinion is not gospel. I am interested in alternative perspectives, those which do not necessarily play well to the masses and therefore the business/marketing side of things. I'm sure there are many individuals in the GNOME movement that would agree, that's why half of us are here in this alternative OS anyway. 2. I would hardly classify even the most enthusiastic artistic critisizm as "roaring". Really, why are we even talking about re-design if there seems to be general approval for the site as it stands? 3. Aesthetic critique is nothing to get defensive about. Neither Ryan or myself are discussing your artistic sensibilities or talents. I can't speak for him, but I'm just expressing some of the appeal that the old scheme appealed to me. > >> Additionally, some of the colors in the GNOME color scheme (especially as > >> used on the old site) are plain bad, visually. Low-saturation greyish browns > >> are extremely dreary colors (while reducing the contrast of the entire site, > >> and thus the readability). There are also different goals for the visual > >> design of a desktop people are supposed to use for 10 hours a day, every day, > >> and a website that serves as an information and promotion channel for that > >> same desktop. Specifically, you have a much shorter time to make and > >> impression, so being less subdued (in color use, design, etc.) is necessary > >> to capture the user and build brand recognition. > > > This is *definitely* a matter of aesthetic opinion. What you say is "dreary" > > I think is easy on the eyes. Fact is, when you stare at a monitor 10 hours a > > day, a slightly lower intensity and contrast is more desirable. (Not too > > much of course, just a little.) > > As mentioned elewhere, you're not going to be staring at the GNOME website > for 10 hours every day. Also, please read the literature on the impact of > contrast on legibility and comprehension (Nielsen has a few good passages on > this). As you probably know, ultra-high contrast (red on blue for example) is also extremely illegible. So then we must be talking about a balance point somewhere in between, a matter of suitability and appropriateness. To simply say "black on white is correct and nothing else is" fails to appreciate some of the finer subtleties of design, as I'm sure you would agree. What we're all trying to do here is to agree on what is legible and what isn't, not conduct some sort of physiological lightwave rod and cone interface analysis in 4 out of 5 dentists. Indeed, my own comp uses a white background with charcoal text, which I think is perfectly readable. But I'm open for other people's alternative suggestions, too. > > > Also, I don't care about making a visual splash and capturing the casual > > visitor to the site through theatrics. GNOME is better. That's why you would > > want to use it. Let's make the site *clear*, useful and navigable and let > > the user judge for himself whether or not GNOME is better. Sooner or later, > > flash runs out of steam, and they'll go on to something else. There's a > > saying in architecture: "If you can't make it good, make it big. If you > > can't make it big, paint it red." Let's just make it good. > > If you have a good way of showing people the total spectrum of quality that > GNOME represents in the 5-10 seconds a typical user will dedicate to the > front page of an average site before he either gets interested or moves on, > please let me know. > > Please do not erect strawman arguments like this. I'm clearly not arguing > that we make it good-looking instead of good, I'm saying we do both. And I'm not saying that good-looking isn't important either. But it's easy to get enticed by a lot of fancy colors and miss the point. GNOME is about quality and that quality comes through the character and the philosophy that created it. I don't think we should compromise our principles just because it plays well to the 5 second visitor. > > > Ok, now my turn. Try these on: > > > http://www.mindspring.com/~steve_hall/gnome/comp-stevehall03.htm > > Personally, I find these colors to be awfully bland and boring. Others might > disagree. Heh. It's not trying to be exciting, just informative. Roadway signs aren't the most exciting thing I've ever seen either, but they get me to where I'm going. (We all seem to be disagreeing lately, aren't we? But you're entitled.) > > > http://www.mindspring.com/~steve_hall/gnome/comp-stevehall02d.htm (This one > > is *not* intended to be a real proposal, just a way of testing icons against > > a gray on charcoal scheme.) > > > The first test comp is obviously neutral. But as you can see from the > > developer alternative, with neutrality comes flexibility. If we make the > > main GNOME site's colors too strong, the myriad related application and > > project sites will have much more of a struggle to maintain/create their own > > identity while still incorporating some flavor of the central GNOME site. > > Take the current site's "pastels". Anybody else using them? Of course not, > > because it's too strong to be identifiable as anything other than the main > > site. > > I don't think it's our goal to make a reusable design framework of some kind, > which can be used by any random project site that happens to be related to > GNOME. It might be a good idea to have such a framework, to make it easier > for GNOME projects to create attractive and presentable web pages without too > much work, but that's a separate effort from the main GNOME pages. > > There are many good reasons for *not* encouraging a spread/bastardization of > the design, such as the confusion that would arise, with people potentially > confusing random project sites and the main sites, possibly with content > whose quality or reliability we can't vounch for, etc. This is known as brand > dilution, and is considered a Bad Thing. > > So let's create this design with the GNOME sites in mind, not with generic > project sites, for whose sake we need to be bland and nonintrusive. Gods know > it's a big enough job as it is. Wait a second. Have we started selling GNOME lately and nobody told me? Has the GPL been revoked?! I thought that the whole idea behind the GNOME desktop was Free extensibility among as many applications as desire. Since when does the brand of GNOME matter? Let's leave branding up to HelixCode and Eazel, GNOME is more about a philosophy of software development. All I'm saying is that the GNOME web site should have an identifiable *character* and resulting style which is suggested through many subtle (and perhaps some more obvious) artistic vehicles. My point is that these vehicles need to align with the character of the desktop, not be attention-begging flares for a desktop desparate for market share. Truely, if GNOME is the best (and Free) than it can't help but succeed. Again, let's not overstate the point. > > > I guess I'm trying to say that these pages, like the desktop, is a canvas on > > which many projects and applications are painted. It isn't supposed to stand > > out, just be a good supporting structure. Let's keep it clear and somewhat > > neutral. It can still be kickin if the composition is proportional and we > > express style through the subtler things. > > As I've said countless times, feel free to create a wonderful site design > using these colors. I'm still not willing to let the use or non-use of brown > become a deciding factor in whether or not a design is "good enough for the > GNOME sites". > Well, at some point we have to evaluate our interpretations of color. I am fundamentally opposed to a red background, for example. Brown (as you call it), on the other hand, conveys to me the soft-spoken, earthiness of a product that doesn't mind standing on it's own substance and merits. To quote Martha Stewart, "This is a good thing!" It is introverted, which means the visitor has to *ask* questions about GNOME, a sure way to get them *more* involved (as Socrates would tell you). Maybe not quite as many, but definitely a better caliber of folks would stick around. Of course this is all subjective. But that's why we're all talking about this, right? Ok, that's all I have to say. GNOME is a pretty cool thing to me, and has some refreshing qualities that aren't so popular these days. I'm just fighting for a chance to maintain that character in the web site because I care about it. (Oh, and BTW. When you said, "I think this doom metal is making me slightly aggressive. Perhaps I shouldn't listen to this stuff while writing on mailing lists," I think I agree. ;) No hard feelings, Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sun Dec 17 00:36:00 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 244412D713 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 00:35:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147WUf-0001f2-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 06:36:22 +0100 Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 00:33:51 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001217003351.J21146@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001216223521.G21146@helixcode.com> <013901c067e6$48ab51a0$0201a8c0@pc001> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <013901c067e6$48ab51a0$0201a8c0@pc001>; from digitect@mindspring.com on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 12:00:31AM -0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 12:00:31AM -0500, digitect wrote: >> On Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 09:05:25PM -0500, digitect wrote: >> See my mail to Ryan Muldoon for a comprehensive explanation of the >> background for the current www.gnome.org design. > (which were): "Well, those might be your opinions, but the last redesign > was met with > roaring approval through all stages of the design, by the entire GNOME > marketing group, and considered an improvement in all ways." > Several points: > 1. The marketing group's opinion is not gospel. I am interested in > alternative perspectives, those which do not necessarily play well to > the masses and therefore the business/marketing side of things. I'm sure > there are many individuals in the GNOME movement that would agree, > that's why half of us are here in this alternative OS anyway. The marketing group was as close to gospel as you could get at that point. It included both people explicitly working on promoting GNOME, like Bart DeCrem and me, and generally the leaders of the project, such as Miguel, Federico, and Elliot. > 2. I would hardly classify even the most enthusiastic artistic > critisizm as "roaring". Really, why are we even talking about re-design > if there seems to be general approval for the site as it stands? The reactions to the current design were along the lines of "This is a kick-ass website design". But I digress. There are several reasons why we decided to redesign, and thus why we're here. First of all, I wanted a site that was easier to maintain, since my time is somewhat limited. This means that stuff like images for text, although having several advantages, such as compactness, would have to go. Secondly, I want to get rid of WML and Auto*, because it's hard to maintain, and makes it difficult for people to get involved in maintaining the site, again making a lot of maintenance fall on me, instead of on the people who need it done, even though they have CVS access. Additionally, there's the desire to coordinate the look and feel throughout the GNOME sites, which wasn't a consideration originally, and thus the current design isn't made for expanding to, for instance, news.gnome.org. > 3. Aesthetic critique is nothing to get defensive about. Neither Ryan or > myself are discussing your artistic sensibilities or talents. I can't > speak for him, but I'm just expressing some of the appeal that the old > scheme appealed to me. I'm not being defensive. I am, however, pointing out some historical reasons for why the current design is what it is, and they're well worth observing. In particular since one of the stated reasons for that redesign was to, and I quote (don't remember who this was from, might have been Elliot) "Get rid of that horrid brown". >> As mentioned elewhere, you're not going to be staring at the GNOME website >> for 10 hours every day. Also, please read the literature on the impact of >> contrast on legibility and comprehension (Nielsen has a few good passages on >> this). > As you probably know, ultra-high contrast (red on blue for example) is > also extremely illegible. So then we must be talking about a balance > point somewhere in between, a matter of suitability and appropriateness. > To simply say "black on white is correct and nothing else is" fails to > appreciate some of the finer subtleties of design, as I'm sure you would > agree. What we're all trying to do here is to agree on what is legible > and what isn't, not conduct some sort of physiological lightwave rod and > cone interface analysis in 4 out of 5 dentists. Indeed, my own comp uses > a white background with charcoal text, which I think is perfectly > readable. But I'm open for other people's alternative suggestions, too. Red on blue is a simultaneous contrast, and I can't remember proposing that anywhere. Nielsen, for instance, has interesting numbers on the impact of black-or-close text on white-or-close backgrounds on readability, as compared to just about all other combinations. We don't need to do this analysis, since people have already done it for us. > And I'm not saying that good-looking isn't important either. But it's > easy to get enticed by a lot of fancy colors and miss the point. GNOME > is about quality and that quality comes through the character and the > philosophy that created it. I don't think we should compromise our > principles just because it plays well to the 5 second visitor. I don't think we have a "principle" that would be compromised if we used a certain set of colors over another. I want that 5 second visitor. There are a lot of them. We want to reach them, we want to pull them in, we want to show them what GNOME is about. >> Personally, I find these colors to be awfully bland and boring. Others >> might disagree. > Heh. It's not trying to be exciting, just informative. Roadway signs > aren't the most exciting thing I've ever seen either, but they get me to > where I'm going. (We all seem to be disagreeing lately, aren't we? But > you're entitled.) Most color schemes get you where you're going. Of that rather large set, it's a matter of choosing the one that has the most additional advantages, like being attractive, immediately appealing, etc. >> There are many good reasons for *not* encouraging a >> spread/bastardization of >> the design, such as the confusion that would arise, with people >> potentially >> confusing random project sites and the main sites, possibly with >> content >> whose quality or reliability we can't vounch for, etc. This is known >> as brand >> dilution, and is considered a Bad Thing. >> So let's create this design with the GNOME sites in mind, not with >> generic >> project sites, for whose sake we need to be bland and nonintrusive. >> Gods know >> it's a big enough job as it is. > Wait a second. Have we started selling GNOME lately and nobody told me? > Has the GPL been revoked?! I thought that the whole idea behind the > GNOME desktop was Free extensibility among as many applications as > desire. Since when does the brand of GNOME matter? Let's leave branding > up to HelixCode and Eazel, GNOME is more about a philosophy of software > development. Branding/marketing and freedom are not mutually exclusive. Indeed, freedom matters little if few people know that they can have it, and crave it. The GNOME Foundation charter states rather specifically: Public Image and Voice ----------------------- The foundation will be the principal entity with the ability to make official public statements for GNOME, such as press releases. The foundation will also be responsible for maintaining the "GNOME brand," and will have to determine the appropriate uses of the associated trademarks. The foundation will also be a hub for joint-marketing efforts by those organizations (corporate and non) which want to make GNOME-related announcements. Regional groups, created to promote GNOME in specific areas, may wish to make their own announcements about their efforts. Leaving branding and marketing up to companies are not an option. I love Helix Code, it's why I work for it, but I wouldn't want marketing and branding of GNOME to be handed over to Helix Code or any other corporate entity. It's far too important for that. > All I'm saying is that the GNOME web site should have an identifiable > *character* and resulting style which is suggested through many subtle > (and perhaps some more obvious) artistic vehicles. My point is that > these vehicles need to align with the character of the desktop, not be > attention-begging flares for a desktop desparate for market share. > Truely, if GNOME is the best (and Free) than it can't help but succeed. > Again, let's not overstate the point. I know what you're saying. I just think that the desktop and web site are sufficiently different in target audience, goals, medium and usage patterns that it's completely responsible to not maintain a very strong visual consistency between the two. Additionally, there's no such thing as assured success for the best contender, as shown by many real life examples, but that's a different discussion. I just think "GNOME is best anyway, so it doesn't need marketing" (or arguments of that nature) are rather missing the point entirely. >>> As I've said countless times, feel free to create a wonderful site >>> design >>> using these colors. I'm still not willing to let the use or non-use of >>> brown >>> become a deciding factor in whether or not a design is "good enough >>> for the >>> GNOME sites". > Well, at some point we have to evaluate our interpretations of color. I > am fundamentally opposed to a red background, for example. Brown (as you > call it), on the other hand, conveys to me the soft-spoken, earthiness > of a product that doesn't mind standing on it's own substance and > merits. To quote Martha Stewart, "This is a good thing!" It is > introverted, which means the visitor has to *ask* questions about GNOME, > a sure way to get them *more* involved (as Socrates would tell you). > Maybe not quite as many, but definitely a better caliber of folks would > stick around. Of course this is all subjective. But that's why we're all > talking about this, right? Actually, it's not entirely subjective, although it's taken a rather subjective turn. There are in fact very well accepted theories of color that deal with what sort of message and feel certain colors convey (although this isn't global, it's fairly uniform in the western hemisphere, at least. Let's not get into design and color choice for maximum market impact worldwide, it's the realm of million-dollar consulting companies.) And yes, an approach like that would certainly attract a certain group of users. But we're really talking mass-market appeal here, especially for the main www.gnome.org site. We're charged with an extremely important responsibility, namely to be the GNOME project's face to the world, and to be the main gate through which the project recruits both new users, developers and supporters. There is significant strength in numbers, and I don't want to lose a single one of those potential users because our chosen design appeals to "a better caliber of folks". There seems to be some conception that we're mainly making a set of sites for developers. We're not. Developers are important, they get their part of the site, but GNOME is just about ready to go onto the mass market of desktops, and to take on Windows directly. That's what this is about, offering a high-quality, free alternative to all those average users out there. > Ok, that's all I have to say. GNOME is a pretty cool thing to me, and > has some refreshing qualities that aren't so popular these days. I'm > just fighting for a chance to maintain that character in the web site > because I care about it. I think there are many ways to convey GNOME's character through the graphical design, feel and content of the website. Assuming that we have to use the same colors on the web site as are prevalent in the icons (which make up a very small area of the desktop) to do so is in my opinion an extremely simplistic view. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From cox@idecnet.com Sun Dec 17 08:44:19 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp.wanadoo.es (unknown [62.36.220.21]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7E912DC02 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 08:44:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from sapiens.idecnet.com (usuario1-37-143-140.dialup.uni2.es [62.37.143.140]) by smtp.wanadoo.es (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id eBHDiF413309; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:44:16 +0100 (MET) Received: from idecnet.com (cox@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sapiens.idecnet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA02638; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:44:13 +0100 Message-ID: <3A3CC32C.1FF011DA@idecnet.com> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:44:12 +0100 From: "Tomas V.V.Cox" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.13 i586) X-Accept-Language: es-ES, Spanish/Spain, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ryan Muldoon Cc: Joakim Ziegler , gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: 2. Audience (was Re: Design document [Draft 1]) References: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Ryan Muldoon wrote: > > My thoughts (for now) are about sections 2 and 3: > > > > > 2. Audience and goals > > > > The GNOME websites span a rather large range of audiences (and corresponding > > goals), including users, developers, members of the press, representatives of > > companies considering supporting GNOME, and so on. The goals can be broken > > down as follows: > > > > I think one of the main goals should be the issue of integrating new > members of the GNOME community. What I mean by this is encouraging > people to get involved in improving GNOME. The best way to accelerate > the rate of improvement of GNOME is to get more people involved. > Perhaps we can do an user oriented navigation structure. | | Desktop users | Developers | Press | Bussiness | |----------------------------------------------------------------- | (Contents Bar)| | What is Gnome | | other | | other | | other | | other | If I am a delevoper, the "Contents Bar" should have all the links related to developers with Gnome (How to get involved, cvs instructions, devel doc, etc). In each "web site user" section could appear a link to get involved (for ex: Desktop users => do translations, mantain web site; Developers => apps; Press => talk about Gnome, join the press list; Biz => put money :) Cheers, Tomas V.V.Cox From digitect@mindspring.com Sun Dec 17 10:37:18 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F41A2BB19 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:37:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf2u6.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.139.198]) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA14327 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:37:17 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <000f01c0683f$3c45a740$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001216223521.G21146@helixcode.com> <013901c067e6$48ab51a0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217003351.J21146@helixcode.com> Subject: Re: GNOME colors Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:37:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Maybe we're not too far apart... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joakim Ziegler" Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2000 1:33 AM Subject: Re: GNOME colors > In particular since one of the stated reasons for that redesign was to, and I > quote (don't remember who this was from, might have been Elliot) "Get rid of > that horrid brown". Ok, so some hate brown, some like it for traditional reasons. I can agree that it doesn't sparkle. If it ends up going, so be it. I just thought since it is somewhat part of the brand identity for historical reasons, it might be good to at least maintain it in an accent color. > Actually, [color is] not entirely subjective, although it's taken a rather > subjective turn. There are in fact very well accepted theories of color that > deal with what sort of message and feel certain colors convey (although this > isn't global, it's fairly uniform in the western hemisphere, at least. Let's > not get into design and color choice for maximum market impact worldwide, > it's the realm of million-dollar consulting companies.) Well, as an American I can easily agree with this strategy. But it' very appealing to me that GNOME is so international. I always thought the earth tones used in the past came from some sort of Mexican/South American tradition. Not trying to stir the pot again, but I for one, was interpreting the color from an alternative perspective and it was appealing that way. I, too, have studied tons of color theory (Joseph Albers, Mondrian and friends) but in the end it's going to come down to somebody's subjective decision. > I think there are many ways to convey GNOME's character through the graphical > design, feel and content of the website. Assuming that we have to use the > same colors on the web site as are prevalent in the icons (which make up a > very small area of the desktop) to do so is in my opinion an extremely > simplistic view. Maybe you misunderstand my verbosities. I'm not if favor of using a color scheme based *on* the icons. I think the site should be neutral. That's Neutral, as in hue-less, or minimally. Then the art from the desktop can stand out. Of course I understand your hesitancy to depend on the desktop art given it's current dormant state of development. But I'm interested in seeing that prosper, too, in fact, more so than the web site. So maybe I'm on the wrong list, but I think both can and should work together to benefit from the synergy. It's a clever way to take advantage of the spartan volunteer work force. > I want that 5 second visitor. There are a lot of them. We want to reach them, > we want to pull them in, we want to show them what GNOME is about. You and me both. We just have to figure out how to do that. > Leaving branding and marketing up to companies are not an option. I love > Helix Code, it's why I work for it, but I wouldn't want marketing and > branding of GNOME to be handed over to Helix Code or any other corporate > entity. It's far too important for that. I agree. GNOME needs to stand on its own. And I do want it to have it's own identity, distinct from anybody else out there. But I see it as more of a family, not a singular product brand. But maybe I'm not thinking broadly about it enough. > And yes, an approach like that would certainly attract a certain group of > users. But we're really talking mass-market appeal here, especially for the > main www.gnome.org site. We're charged with an extremely important > responsibility, namely to be the GNOME project's face to the world, and to be > the main gate through which the project recruits both new users, developers > and supporters. There is significant strength in numbers, and I don't want to > lose a single one of those potential users because our chosen design appeals > to "a better caliber of folks". I agree. > There seems to be some conception that we're mainly making a set of sites for > developers. We're not. Developers are important, they get their part of the > site, but GNOME is just about ready to go onto the mass market of desktops, > and to take on Windows directly. That's what this is about, offering a > high-quality, free alternative to all those average users out there. Yes, I think the site is currently far too skewed towards the developers. Or rather, I should say that I just don't think there's enough accomodation to the new user. That's why I'm in favor of splitting content right down the middle and have proposed a structure around this scheme. Users need the front end and it needs to be far better than what we currently have. From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sun Dec 17 13:54:41 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC7B62BE08 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:54:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147ixh-0006BO-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 19:55:10 +0100 Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:52:36 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001217135236.A28998@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001216223521.G21146@helixcode.com> <013901c067e6$48ab51a0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217003351.J21146@helixcode.com> <000f01c0683f$3c45a740$0201a8c0@pc001> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <000f01c0683f$3c45a740$0201a8c0@pc001>; from digitect@mindspring.com on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 10:37:16AM -0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 10:37:16AM -0500, digitect wrote: >> In particular since one of the stated reasons for that redesign was to, and >> I quote (don't remember who this was from, might have been Elliot) "Get rid of >> that horrid brown". > Ok, so some hate brown, some like it for traditional reasons. I can agree that > it doesn't sparkle. If it ends up going, so be it. I just thought since it is > somewhat part of the brand identity for historical reasons, it might be good > to at least maintain it in an accent color. I think there are ways to retain the image in the colors without preserving that specific brown. I'll write a message about this with a color comp of my own after I finish this message. >> Actually, [color is] not entirely subjective, although it's taken a rather >> subjective turn. There are in fact very well accepted theories of color that >> deal with what sort of message and feel certain colors convey (although this >> isn't global, it's fairly uniform in the western hemisphere, at least. Let's >> not get into design and color choice for maximum market impact worldwide, >> it's the realm of million-dollar consulting companies.) > Well, as an American I can easily agree with this strategy. But it' very > appealing to me that GNOME is so international. I always thought the earth > tones used in the past came from some sort of Mexican/South American > tradition. Not that I'm aware of, at least not consciously. Anyway, from my understanding, it seems that it's Asia that's the joker in the color symbolism deck, most of the western hemisphere has a rather similar culture when it comes to this. > Not trying to stir the pot again, but I for one, was interpreting > the color from an alternative perspective and it was appealing that way. I, > too, have studied tons of color theory (Joseph Albers, Mondrian and friends) > but in the end it's going to come down to somebody's subjective decision. Definitely. I hope it ends up being a clear majority decision, though. I also have the feeling that disagreement might be larger during a discussion than when people actually sit down and look at different suggestions. >> I think there are many ways to convey GNOME's character through the >> graphical >> design, feel and content of the website. Assuming that we have to use the >> same colors on the web site as are prevalent in the icons (which make up a >> very small area of the desktop) to do so is in my opinion an extremely >> simplistic view. > Maybe you misunderstand my verbosities. I'm not if favor of using a color > scheme based *on* the icons. I think the site should be neutral. That's > Neutral, as in hue-less, or minimally. Then the art from the desktop can stand > out. Of course I understand your hesitancy to depend on the desktop art given > it's current dormant state of development. But I'm interested in seeing that > prosper, too, in fact, more so than the web site. So maybe I'm on the wrong > list, but I think both can and should work together to benefit from the > synergy. It's a clever way to take advantage of the spartan volunteer work > force. I hope so too. It seems to me that when a new, fresh piece of design that doesn't rely overly on the existing corpus gets injected into the mix, the totality benefits. It's like including outside DNA into an overly homogenic gene pool, which has become somewhat stagnant; it promotes change and development, and tends towards a new equilibrium. I know some people have considered some of the icon and other graphics work Tuomas has done at Helix Code to be inspiration in this manner (it has more of a Helix look than the traditional GNOME look), and I hope the a web site that does new things, while still respecting its origins, can have the same sort of effect. >> Leaving branding and marketing up to companies are not an option. I love >> Helix Code, it's why I work for it, but I wouldn't want marketing and >> branding of GNOME to be handed over to Helix Code or any other corporate >> entity. It's far too important for that. > I agree. GNOME needs to stand on its own. And I do want it to have it's own > identity, distinct from anybody else out there. But I see it as more of a > family, not a singular product brand. But maybe I'm not thinking broadly about > it enough. Well, you're right in some respects. This is one of the reasons I'm a little afraid of relying too much on the desktop imagery. While the desktop environment is an important part of GNOME, it's also the part that gets the most attention (because it's easiest to get a concept of). But GNOME is a lot more than the desktop (in fact, the desktop is kind of a coincidence). It's difficult to brand something this large and diverse. I'm hoping we can succeed by being fairly abstract in our approach. Possibly, we'll just have to say "this is what we want GNOME to be associated with", instead of "what is it people associate GNOME with?", because people's perceptions at the moment are very varied. I'm doing a color comp right now, which is a little bolder than the things that have been proposed so far, yet, I think, might be a pleasant surprise. More of that in a little while. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sun Dec 17 14:53:09 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A34F92BAC0 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:53:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147jsI-0001Ln-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 20:53:38 +0100 Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:51:05 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001217145105.B28998@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com>; from joakim@helixcode.com on Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 04:36:43PM -0600 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work So I thought I'd say a little about what the color associations I get from GNOME are. To me, the keyword is probably "warm". GNOME is very close, personal, it ties stuff together. I'm associating rather freely here, this is more or less a brain dump of a non-verbal part of my brain, so bear with me. Lush, rich, warm colors, with perhaps a little dust, like when sun filters through dusty air inside a library building on a warm summer day. The colors of fine wood, old leather, finely printed books, warm sand, cream, spices, and so on. This probably sounds weird, but I have a very emotional approach to choosing colors and doing design. Others might not. Anyway, with these associations in mind, I sat down and made a little color comp. It has six base colors, with four variations of each. I didn't add black to this set of comps, since it's kind of a given. I think this palette isn't too far, conseptually, from the colors people associate with GNOME traditionally, in that they're all slightly "dusty" and subdued, but they're also a little bit bolder and stronger than the typical grayish browns. I didn't make any mockup design of a webpage, since I think that tends to distract a little from the colors themselves, at this stage. I think it's great that we're actually *thinking* about colors this time, since color choice the last time (and, I suspect, also the first time) was somewhat of a haphazard process. Anyway, see what you think: http://www.avmaria.com/gnome-color-proposal-1.png -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From digitect@mindspring.com Sun Dec 17 14:53:51 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6042B2BAC0 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:53:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf2rd.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.139.109]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA24563 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:53:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <002101c06863$13772400$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001216223521.G21146@helixcode.com> <013901c067e6$48ab51a0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217003351.J21146@helixcode.com> <000f01c0683f$3c45a740$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217135236.A28998@helixcode.com> Subject: Re: GNOME colors Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:53:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > From: "Joakim Ziegler" > Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2000 2:52 PM > > It's difficult to brand something this large and diverse. I'm hoping we can > succeed by being fairly abstract in our approach. Possibly, we'll just have > to say "this is what we want GNOME to be associated with", instead of "what > is it people associate GNOME with?", because people's perceptions at the > moment are very varied. Yeah, I was starting to think that too, back when we were talking about brand v. family of products. Would we go so far as to consider the web site one of the products? Then it can sort of take on a character of it's own, appropriate for the audiences your draft discusses. From digitect@mindspring.com Sun Dec 17 19:38:43 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (granger.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.148]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 143862BAE9 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 19:38:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf318.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.140.40]) by granger.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA17267 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 19:38:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <003901c0688a$defbe6c0$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: Subject: Re: GNOME colors Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 19:38:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > From: "Joakim Ziegler" > Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2000 3:51 PM > To me, the keyword is probably "warm". . . . Lush, rich, > warm colors, with perhaps a little dust, like when sun filters through dusty > air inside a library building on a warm summer day. The colors of fine wood, > old leather, finely printed books, warm sand, cream, spices, and so on. I'm warm, too, but outside. Meadows in late spring/early summer, new green shoots, dry earth, dandelions. > I think this palette isn't too far, conceptually, from the > colors people associate with GNOME traditionally, in that they're all > slightly "dusty" and subdued, but they're also a little bit bolder and > stronger than the typical grayish browns. True. > I think it's great that we're actually *thinking* about colors this time, > since color choice the last time (and, I suspect, also the first time) was > somewhat of a haphazard process. This is definitely a good process. I like how your moderating us to components, not entire mockups. I wasn't expecting us to be this disciplined. I think this is letting us get to a deeper understanding of what GNOME is, was, and should be. Of course, once the iterative part is finished . . . > > Anyway, see what you think: > > http://www.avmaria.com/gnome-color-proposal-1.png (All right, whoever's been watching from the curb thus far, say you didn't expect me to make a counter proposal. ;) I agree with Joakim steering clear of the blues. I think I could also settle for bolder if I had to, but I'm still not quite convinced. What if we backed off on the saturation a bit and leaned more green/yellow than red? Besides being a pretty popular palette these days, I think it also says GNOME: http://www.mindspring.com/~digitect/gnome/colors-stevehall-01.png Anyone else care to chime in with opinions of colors? Joakim and I have been preaching at each other for quite a few exchanges but I hope we haven't scared everybody else off. I'll try to keep it down a little until next weekend. Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Sun Dec 17 20:08:13 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6929F2BAE9 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 20:08:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147onE-0007LW-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 02:08:44 +0100 Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 20:06:10 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001217200610.A29998@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <003901c0688a$defbe6c0$0201a8c0@pc001> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <003901c0688a$defbe6c0$0201a8c0@pc001>; from digitect@mindspring.com on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 07:38:41PM -0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 07:38:41PM -0500, digitect wrote: >> From: "Joakim Ziegler" >> Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2000 3:51 PM >> I think it's great that we're actually *thinking* about colors this time, >> since color choice the last time (and, I suspect, also the first time) was >> somewhat of a haphazard process. > This is definitely a good process. I like how your moderating us to components, > not entire mockups. I wasn't expecting us to be this disciplined. I think this > is letting us get to a deeper understanding of what GNOME is, was, and should > be. Of course, once the iterative part is finished . . . I'm mainly trying to eliminate noise. A good color scheme could easily be lost if it was presented in a too quickly done mockup of a web site, or the other way around. I'm happy people like this way of working, as it makes it easy to concentrate on one thing at a time. >> Anyway, see what you think: >> http://www.avmaria.com/gnome-color-proposal-1.png > (All right, whoever's been watching from the curb thus far, say you didn't > expect me to make a counter proposal. ;) I agree with Joakim steering clear of > the blues. I think I could also settle for bolder if I had to, but I'm still not > quite convinced. What if we backed off on the saturation a bit and leaned more > green/yellow than red? Besides being a pretty popular palette these days, I > think it also says GNOME: > http://www.mindspring.com/~digitect/gnome/colors-stevehall-01.png Not bad, although I feel that "the bottom fell out", for lack of a better term, in that all of the colors seem to have a lot of white in them. I like the brown, though. Your yellow has a lot of green in it, which makes it seem a little cold for my taste. What do you know. You're a spring, I'm an autumn. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From webmaven@lvcm.com Mon Dec 18 01:16:38 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams1.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.75]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 046D82DC09 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 01:16:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.192.168]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Sun, 17 Dec 2000 22:20:30 -0800 Message-ID: <3A3DCA08.83084BDF@lvcm.com> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 00:25:44 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001216223521.G21146@helixcode.com> <013901c067e6$48ab51a0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217003351.J21146@helixcode.com> <000f01c0683f$3c45a740$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217135236.A28998@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > It's difficult to brand something this large and diverse. I'm hoping we can > succeed by being fairly abstract in our approach. Possibly, we'll just have > to say "this is what we want GNOME to be associated with", instead of "what > is it people associate GNOME with?", because people's perceptions at the > moment are very varied. Joakim, Has anyone on the 'GNOME marketing commitee' ever created a positioning statement for GNOME? A positioning statement, for those of you on the list who may not have heard the term before, is simply a description of how you would like to be perceived by your prospects. It shouldn't be confused with your position, which is a description of how you actually ARE perceived. A positioning statement can be created quite simply by answering seven questions: Who: Who are you? What: What business are you in? For whom: What people do you serve? What need: What are the special needs of the people you serve? Against whom: With whom are you competing? What's different: What makes you different form those competitors? So: What's the benefit? What unique benefit does a customer derive from you? To illustrate, take Bloomingdale's as an example: (Who) "Bloomingdale's (What) are fashion-focused department stores (For whom) for trend-conscious, upper-middle class shoppers (What need) looking for high-end products. Unlike (Against whom) other department stores, Bloomingdale's (What's different) provides unique merchandise in a theatrical setting (So) that makes shopping entertaining." Of the seven questions, the trickiest is number five 'What's different?'. This is where people try to cram in everything but the kitchen sink. When trying to define your position in the marketplace (especially the marketplace of ideas), you must choose the one thing that makes you different from your competitors, and not try to say you are all things to all people. So, has anyone ever done this for GNOME? Michael Bernstein. From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Mon Dec 18 01:38:34 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAF002DC09 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 01:38:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147twy-0002Y8-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 07:39:08 +0100 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 01:36:33 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001218013633.B29998@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <20001217145105.B28998@helixcode.com> <200012172013.OAA55914@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012172013.OAA55914@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 12:14:14AM +0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 12:14:14AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: >> To me, the keyword is probably "warm". GNOME is very close, personal, it ties >> stuff together. I'm associating rather freely here, this is more or less a >> brain dump of a non-verbal part of my brain, so bear with me. Lush, rich, >> warm colors, with perhaps a little dust, like when sun filters through dusty >> air inside a library building on a warm summer day. The colors of fine wood, >> old leather, finely printed books, warm sand, cream, spices, and so on. > I definitely agree here. > My comments on the color comp are as follows: > 1. overall, very nice > 2. the orange seems out of place - too bright > 3. I really like the cream colors, for accent > 4. the salmon color (up and to the left of orange) seems a little off > too It's mainly intended as a draft palette, so at least small adjustments should be expected. The orange might indeed be a little bright, but I'd like to have an orange in there, it's an incredibly versatile color, and used correctly, it can be very nice (it's probably a bit much in a square block like it is on the palette). > 5. the top row, if used, should only be used sparingly Yes, the top row was mainly intended for those cases where you'd need a brighter color, like, say, if you're doing a beveled frame on one of the colors, or for other such highlight purposes. > I like the darker colors in the last row...perhaps we can experiment > with using these for header text, or bolder accent lines. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Mon Dec 18 01:41:32 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D1512DC46 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 01:41:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 147tzp-0002DV-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 07:42:06 +0100 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 01:39:30 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001218013930.C29998@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001216223521.G21146@helixcode.com> <013901c067e6$48ab51a0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217003351.J21146@helixcode.com> <000f01c0683f$3c45a740$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217135236.A28998@helixcode.com> <3A3DCA08.83084BDF@lvcm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A3DCA08.83084BDF@lvcm.com>; from webmaven@lvcm.com on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 12:25:44AM -0800 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 12:25:44AM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: > Joakim Ziegler wrote: >> It's difficult to brand something this large and diverse. I'm hoping we can >> succeed by being fairly abstract in our approach. Possibly, we'll just have >> to say "this is what we want GNOME to be associated with", instead of "what >> is it people associate GNOME with?", because people's perceptions at the >> moment are very varied. > Has anyone on the 'GNOME marketing commitee' ever created a > positioning statement for GNOME? Not as far as I know. At least not as such. I think the information exists, and the answers to the questions are likely very similar wihtin at least the core community. Actually, a lot of them are answered in places such as the foundation charter. However, it's a good idea to have one. I don't feel that we have the mandate to create one, though, but it might be worthwhile to raise the issue with the board. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From Peteris_Krisjanis@elkogroup.com Mon Dec 18 01:45:43 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lotus3.elkogroup.com (lotus3.elkogroup.com [194.9.175.53]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92DC32DC46 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 01:45:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: IRC? To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.3 (Intl) 21 March 2000 Message-ID: From: Peteris_Krisjanis@elkogroup.com Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 08:46:21 +0200 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on lotus3/ELKOGROUP/LV(Release 5.0.5 |September 22, 2000) at 12/18/2000 08:46:25 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Yeah, I think it would be useful, because for synchronization of opinions we generating gigantic amount of mails (sometimes) ;))) Only thing we must choose is time and place... Peteris Krisjanis. From jdub@aphid.net Mon Dec 18 03:57:18 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail005.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail005.syd.optusnet.com.au [203.2.75.229]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC29E2CB0B for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 03:57:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (sdcax53-026.dialup.optusnet.com.au [198.142.207.26]) by mail005.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBI8ttK12626 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 19:55:55 +1100 Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 026783E95; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 19:57:16 +1100 (EST) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 19:57:16 +1100 From: Jeff Waugh To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: IRC? Message-ID: <20001218195716.P6829@aphid.net> Mail-Followup-To: Jeff Waugh , gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from Peteris_Krisjanis@elkogroup.com on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 08:46:21AM +0200 X-Message: Leenooks, Lienucks, Leenoos, Lienus, Let's call the whole thing off. X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.0-test11 i686 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > Yeah, I think it would be useful, because for synchronization of opinions > we generating gigantic amount of mails (sometimes) ;))) > > Only thing we must choose is time and place... As always, on irc.gnome.org in #webgeeks. There's usually a couple of us there bitching about . :) - Jeff -- jdub@aphid.net --------------------------------- http://linux.conf.au/ -- ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI. From webmaven@lvcm.com Mon Dec 18 10:15:27 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams3.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.77]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A35E52D2AD for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 10:15:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.192.168]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Mon, 18 Dec 2000 07:16:21 -0800 Message-ID: <3A3E485C.3EB53192@lvcm.com> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 09:24:44 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors References: <20001216163643.C21146@helixcode.com> <200012162255.QAA36840@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001216200212.E21146@helixcode.com> <004101c067cd$d2488ae0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001216223521.G21146@helixcode.com> <013901c067e6$48ab51a0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217003351.J21146@helixcode.com> <000f01c0683f$3c45a740$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001217135236.A28998@helixcode.com> <3A3DCA08.83084BDF@lvcm.com> <20001218013930.C29998@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 12:25:44AM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: > > Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > >> It's difficult to brand something this large and diverse. I'm hoping we can > >> succeed by being fairly abstract in our approach. Possibly, we'll just have > >> to say "this is what we want GNOME to be associated with", instead of "what > >> is it people associate GNOME with?", because people's perceptions at the > >> moment are very varied. > > > Has anyone on the 'GNOME marketing commitee' ever created a > > positioning statement for GNOME? > > Not as far as I know. At least not as such. I think the information exists, > and the answers to the questions are likely very similar wihtin at least the > core community. Actually, a lot of them are answered in places such as the > foundation charter. > > However, it's a good idea to have one. I don't feel that we have the mandate > to create one, though, but it might be worthwhile to raise the issue with the > board. I've frequently found that going through the excersize of creating one then makes look-and-feel decisions a lot simpler. All you have to ask is which alternative expresses the positioning that you want better. That answer will be different for different mediums, but the message will still be consistent, even if it's expression isn't. Michael Bernstein. From ulf@obsession.se Mon Dec 18 18:51:12 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from musse.tninet.se (musse.tninet.se [195.100.94.12]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E0A6F2BB95 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 18:51:11 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 11831 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2000 00:51:10 +0100 Received: from delenn.tninet.se (HELO algonet.se) (195.100.94.104) by musse.tninet.se with SMTP; 19 Dec 2000 00:51:10 +0100 Received: from obsession.se (sdu88-247.ppp.algonet.se [195.163.247.88]) by delenn.tninet.se (BLUETAIL Mail Robustifier 2.2.1) with ESMTP id 477170.183469.977delenn-s1 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:51:09 +0100 Message-ID: <3A3FF490.6B0D01C6@obsession.se> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:51:44 +0100 From: Ulf Pettersson Reply-To: ulf@obsession.se Organization: Obsession Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: On colour Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work I have followed your discussion around colour for sometime now. Your proposals include too many too diverse colours. This last picture: http://www.mindspring.com/~digitect/gnome/colors-stevehall-01.png includes about 9 different hues. Some of them are more or less complimentary while others are quite close. All in all, they cannot (and do not) match. All expression is based on relationsships between differences and similarities and if you include colours in a almost random way it is hard to get meaning across (unless visual uncertainty/randomness itself is the point). Basically, choose colours in a way that give them a clear relationship; either they may be close in hue(i generally don't like that) or they may be complimentary (opposite in hue) (i tend to choose color more in that way, most other designers seem to as well). The point is that you have to have a some sort of 'drama' in your colour selection or it will not be effective. For example, a drama is cleary created between reds and greens, but if you also add blues and yellows the effect is lost. I'd advise you restrict yourselves to two (possibly three) main colors for major graphic elements, excluding black and white. If you want more colours, create subtle variantions from one or two of the ones you have chosen. If we look at the picture above: If you remove the last three columns from the picture (yellow, blue, green), I would say you have a good set of colours to work with (other combinations are possible). I like the colour-scheme of Gnome. At least compared to the design of most free software. Too me the Gnome colour scheme seems a very strong element of the Gnome brand and it would be a shame to loose it (without a clearly superior alternative). To me it is also obvious that the site should reflect the colours of the desktop. Every major non-free, consumer OS uses their desktops visual appearance in their branding (MacOS, BeOS and Windows increasingly), and they are right about it. I dont think the Gnome icons or the Gnome colour-scheme are that great. They are a little too murky, too similar in colour and the icons are sometimes somewhat poorly rendered. But for free software they are really not bad. I really detest the look of KDE. It looks unprofessional, childish and hackerish in a bad (non-elegant) sense. Between KDE and Gnome, Gnome _looks_ like a much more though-over and professional environment. Largely because of its icons, other graphic details and the subtle and consistent colour-scale. I'd hate to flame anyone but the current design of the Gnome site (front page) does not really suit my taste (or professional opinion). Mostly because it is hard to read, too diffucult to understand where to click and has too much graphics but also because the colours (bright pink, blue and green) make me think of My Little Pony or icecream and are not consistent with the Gnome colours. I think the previous site was better (as I remember it) and was surprised by the change, which was a step in the opposite direction of most website design (where flexibility, utility, useability, download speed and design elements well adjusted for the web are gaining ground). Ulf Pettersson Designer From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Mon Dec 18 20:11:24 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7924A2BDE9 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 20:11:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148BK1-00072c-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 02:12:06 +0100 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 20:07:33 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: On colour Message-ID: <20001218200733.D868@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <3A3FF490.6B0D01C6@obsession.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A3FF490.6B0D01C6@obsession.se>; from ulf@obsession.se on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 12:51:44AM +0100 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 12:51:44AM +0100, Ulf Pettersson wrote: > Your proposals include too many too diverse colours. > This last picture: > http://www.mindspring.com/~digitect/gnome/colors-stevehall-01.png > includes about 9 different hues. Some of them are more or less complimentary > while others are quite close. All in all, they cannot (and do not) match. All > expression is based on relationsships between differences and similarities and > if you include colours in a almost random way it is hard to get meaning across > (unless visual uncertainty/randomness itself is the point). > Basically, choose colours in a way that give them a clear relationship; either > they may be close in hue(i generally don't like that) or they may be > complimentary (opposite in hue) (i tend to choose color more in that way, most > other designers seem to as well). The point is that you have to have a some sort > of 'drama' in your colour selection or it will not be effective. For example, a > drama is cleary created between reds and greens, but if you also add blues and > yellows the effect is lost. > I'd advise you restrict yourselves to two (possibly three) main colors for major > graphic elements, excluding black and white. If you want more colours, create > subtle variantions from one or two of the ones you have chosen. If we look at > the picture above: If you remove the last three columns from the picture > (yellow, blue, green), I would say you have a good set of colours to work with > (other combinations are possible). There's definitely the possibility of restricting ourselves to fewer colors, specifically the number of colors used on a single page. I think it would be good to have a number of colors in an "official palette" to choose from, though, especially since the site design might call for such things as color-coding sections. I can't speak for Steve Hall's proposal, but mine included 5 different hues, with brightness/saturation variations for each. This is definitely not too many, given the circumstances above. > I like the colour-scheme of Gnome. At least compared to the design of most free > software. Too me the Gnome colour scheme seems a very strong element of the > Gnome brand and it would be a shame to loose it (without a clearly superior > alternative). To me it is also obvious that the site should reflect the colours > of the desktop. Every major non-free, consumer OS uses their desktops visual > appearance in their branding (MacOS, BeOS and Windows increasingly), and they > are right about it. I think this is misguided for several reasons (as I believe I've pointed out earlier in this thread). First of all, GNOME is a lot more than just a desktop, and the desktop is what gets the most attention as it is, so it might be good to try to balance this a bit more. Secondly, a desktop and a web site are so different media that it would be a bad idea to try to unify them too much (Apple were only able to unify their web site and desktop after they turned the desktop into a visual circus of useless chrome, which has received more or less unanimous bad reviews from usability experts, and I don't see how Microsoft's site picks up too much of Windows' look at all). > I dont think the Gnome icons or the Gnome colour-scheme are that great. They are > a little too murky, too similar in colour and the icons are sometimes somewhat > poorly rendered. But for free software they are really not bad. I really detest > the look of KDE. It looks unprofessional, childish and hackerish in a bad > (non-elegant) sense. Between KDE and Gnome, Gnome _looks_ like a much more > though-over and professional environment. Largely because of its icons, other > graphic details and the subtle and consistent colour-scale. I agree, the GNOME icon colors work very well for icons (although I think Tuomas, who is largely responsible for that color scheme in icons, is moving somewhat brighter colors in his newer work, for instance the icons in Evolution). > I'd hate to flame anyone but the current design of the Gnome site (front page) > does not really suit my taste (or professional opinion). Mostly because it is > hard to read, too diffucult to understand where to click and has too much > graphics but also because the colours (bright pink, blue and green) make me > think of My Little Pony or icecream and are not consistent with the Gnome > colours. I think the previous site was better (as I remember it) and was > surprised by the change, which was a step in the opposite direction of most > website design (where flexibility, utility, useability, download speed and > design elements well adjusted for the web are gaining ground). Well, some of this is personal opinion, I won't take issue with that, since there's little point. Download speed increased with the new design (it's about 2/3 of the old page size). I'm not sure how exactly you feel usability and "design elements well adjusted for the web" were hurt by the new design, although I'll admit that some flexibility from the development perspective was lost by using graphics for text, etc. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From digitect@mindspring.com Mon Dec 18 20:22:17 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 608742BDE9 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 20:22:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from smui05.slb.mindspring.net (smui05.slb.mindspring.net [199.174.114.91]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA21347 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 20:22:17 -0500 (EST) From: digitect@mindspring.com Received: by smui05.slb.mindspring.net id UAA0000008124; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 20:22:16 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 20:22:16 -0500 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: On colour Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: 208.150.104.109 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > ulf@obsession.se wrote: > > Your proposals include too many too diverse colours. Oops, I guess I didn't mean to suggest that we use ALL these colors on one page. I really intended to create a *family* of colors to be used in more selective compositions (as you suggest) across www.gnome.org, developer.gnome.org, gtk.gnome.org, help.gnome.org, foundation.gnome.org, etc. The palette is a total range (figure, field and accent) of all the sub-sites in the gnome.org domain, which together define GNOME. I would heartily agree that no artist could/should work out a composition with even half of them! But thanks for bringing it up, because I'm wondering if you think that's a valid approach. I've been thinking that each major section should be a variation of one theme. Perhaps they all use a monochromatic color scheme, each with a different color from the family. Or maybe they all have one brown, but use different accents. Take Microsoft. Their "look" is those primary colors (along with other non-color devices). But each product, sub-site, or application uses a different color as the primary and one or more of the others for accent. In this way each gets it's own look, but yet stays within the recognizable family. With just the four total, they get over a hundred valid compositions. But do you think GNOME should have our different sub-sites look different, or all the same? I'll also say that there are more than just two theories about what constitutes "good" color composition, although the two you mention are the most common. Here is an interior design site that does a pretty good job of outlining some of the more commonly accepted theories. Read "Color Schemes" about half way down: http://www.kitchen-emporium.com/colour.html I'm particularly fond of neutral, but that's because I'm an architect. (Imagine concrete, white plaster, stainless steel, bleached maple flooring, and black granite counter tops--mmm, delicious.) For the GNOME web site I also think it does a better job of showing off the muted colors in our artwork. My current proposal is that the GNOME site be a white background, with light tan and dark brown page elements (from tradition), dark gray text accented by the periwinkle blue. Most other sections reuse the white background and dark gray text, along with the tan and brown, but are differently accented in the greens, ochres, or rusts from my proposed family of colors. And sometimes (like developer.gnome.org) we use more black to make it more suspenseful, or flip accent and primaries. The user continues to see the same color scheme, the "brand" of GNOME, but recognizes a new subsection intuitively because of the compositional adjustments, all of which are choreographed around the desired mood in each site. ("Help" is friendly, "Foundation" is businesslike, "Developer" is ominous, etc.) Wow, it's tough to discuss this stuff in writing! Thanks for bearing with me. Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From amundson@eventloop.com Mon Dec 18 23:41:20 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from skull.eventloop.com (mail.eventloop.com [209.98.211.225]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07BEC2BB7E for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:41:20 -0500 (EST) Received: (from amundson@localhost) by skull.eventloop.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id WAA02212; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 22:41:07 -0600 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 22:41:07 -0600 From: Shawn T Amundson To: "Tomas V.V.Cox" Cc: Ryan Muldoon , Joakim Ziegler , gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: 2. Audience (was Re: Design document [Draft 1]) Message-ID: <20001218224106.A2120@eventloop.com> Reply-To: Shawn T Amundson Mail-Followup-To: "Tomas V.V.Cox" , Ryan Muldoon , Joakim Ziegler , gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <3A3CC32C.1FF011DA@idecnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A3CC32C.1FF011DA@idecnet.com>; from cox@idecnet.com on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 02:44:12PM +0100 X-Widget-Set-Url: http://www.gtk.org/ Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 02:44:12PM +0100, Tomas V.V.Cox wrote: > > > > I think one of the main goals should be the issue of integrating new > > members of the GNOME community. What I mean by this is encouraging > > people to get involved in improving GNOME. The best way to accelerate > > the rate of improvement of GNOME is to get more people involved. > > > > Perhaps we can do an user oriented navigation structure. > > | | Desktop users | Developers | Press | Bussiness | > |----------------------------------------------------------------- > | (Contents Bar)| > | What is Gnome | > | other | > | other | > | other | > | other | > > Again, I'd like to stress my belief that the website should feel like it is for desktop users and developers, not for press and big business. I agree that it is important information and a very important group of people, but GNOME's *image* is more important. I suggest Press things be categorized under "Contact Us". Perhaps on that page, have a link to the "Press Kit" pages. This will not be too hard to find for the press. The other portion, a overview of what GNOME is, should be on the homepage. I suggest that someone could start writing some nice text for GNOME's front page which is interesting and pulls you into various areas of the project. I am curious what specific things are targetted at Businesses and not just large groups of users (like Universities). I suggest the following top level navigation: | | The Desktop | Download | Development | News | Contact Us | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- | (Contents Bar)| | ..... | | ..... | | ..... | | ..... | | ..... | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Webmaster | Legal Here is what would go in each section: The Desktop - All information for the User and non-coding Contributor (www.gnome.org) Download - Information on downloading GNOME and GNOME Applications (www.gnome.org/download/) Development - For the developer (developer.gnome.org) News - News about GNOME (news.gnome.org) Contact Us - All contact info, press kit, etc. (www.gnome.org/contact_us/) Everything else would be in the sidebar under one of these categories. -Shawn -- Shawn T. Amundson amundson@eventloop.com Research and Development http://www.eventloop.com/ EventLoop, Inc. http://www.snorfle.net/ "The assumption that the universe looks the same in every direction is clearly not true in reality." - Stephen Hawking From amundson@eventloop.com Mon Dec 18 23:52:33 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from skull.eventloop.com (mail.eventloop.com [209.98.211.225]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8419A2BB7E for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:52:32 -0500 (EST) Received: (from amundson@localhost) by skull.eventloop.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id WAA02246 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 22:52:32 -0600 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 22:52:32 -0600 From: Shawn T Amundson To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] Message-ID: <20001218225231.B2120@eventloop.com> Reply-To: Shawn T Amundson Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com>; from joakim@helixcode.com on Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:56:57AM -0600 X-Widget-Set-Url: http://www.gtk.org/ Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:56:57AM -0600, Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > TABLE OF CONTENTS > > 1. Introduction > > 2. Audience and goals > > 3. Navigation structure/usability > > 4. Graphical design > > 5. Localization > > 6. Technology > > Also: 7. Contributors and Copyright > > > 1. Introduction > > This is a draft design document for the GNOME websites. It's based on the > discussion on gnome-web-list@gnome.org, as well as my own personal > suggestions/preferences. Don't take things here as written in stone, this is > mostly intended as a starting point for discussion. The next version of this document should probably say something like: The is a draft design document for the GNOME websites. It is based on discussion by the GNOME Web Development Team on gnome-web-list@gnome.org as well as feedback from GNOME users, contributors, and developers. Don't take things here as written in stone, this is intended for discussion purposes and to document the theory behind our decisions while developing the website. Delete the following paragraph, it is not relevant to the discussion: > > The structure of the document is fairly general, and is designed to > accommodate most changes, so we won't have to go around changing the actual > structure, just the content of the sections. It's a lot easier that way. > [ More in seperate e-mails ] -Shawn -- Shawn T. Amundson amundson@eventloop.com Research and Development http://www.eventloop.com/ EventLoop, Inc. http://www.snorfle.net/ "The assumption that the universe looks the same in every direction is clearly not true in reality." - Stephen Hawking From amundson@eventloop.com Tue Dec 19 00:24:27 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from skull.eventloop.com (mail.eventloop.com [209.98.211.225]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD99C2C8B5 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:24:26 -0500 (EST) Received: (from amundson@localhost) by skull.eventloop.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id XAA02318 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:24:26 -0600 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:24:26 -0600 From: Shawn T Amundson To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] Message-ID: <20001218232425.C2120@eventloop.com> Reply-To: Shawn T Amundson Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com>; from joakim@helixcode.com on Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:56:57AM -0600 X-Widget-Set-Url: http://www.gtk.org/ Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:56:57AM -0600, Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > 3. Navigation structure/usability > > The navigational structure for the GNOME sites is by no means a given. There > has been a lot of discussion, particularly about the top-level division of > areas, where there have been suggestions for task-oriented, user group > oriented, and subject oriented navigation, as well as variations over these > three basic themes. > > My current proposal is to use a task/subject hybrid structure, with user > group oriented navigation as an alternative method of access. That is, the > main categories of the navigation tree are task/subject oriented, and we > present a small menu in a sidebar or similar on the frontpage for users to > navigate by user group, which leads to one page per user group, with a > collection of links that's relevant for that group. > > That still leaves the problem of creating the top-level categories. It's very > easy to either overspecialize the categories, and end up with too many > (anything over 10-12 is too many, in reality) or create too broad categories > that are unintuitive. I created 12 categories which I believe are rather > intuitive for the user, and span all the information we want to place on the > GNOME sites. I've not created the actual structure beneath each toplevel > category, as I think it's not entirely clear yet what things we actually > *want*, however I believe this structure is general enough that it'll be able > to hold whatever we want to put into it. The order of this list might be > illogical. I think that this is too many things. I already e-mailed this out a few minutes ago, but I'll repeat so the comments below make sense: Toplevel categories: The Desktop - All information for the User and non-coding Contributor (www.gnome.org) Download - Information on downloading GNOME and GNOME Applications (www.gnome.org/download/) Development - For the developer (developer.gnome.org) News - News about GNOME (news.gnome.org) Contact Us - All contact info, press kit, etc. (www.gnome.org/contact_us/) Now, I'll comment on where I think each of the following should land in my proposed toplevel structure. > 3.1 Top-level structure > > About > > Introductory documents. Mainly for those unfamiliar with GNOME in general, > and who want a quick way to figure out what this is all about. Includes the > a "What is GNOME" document, the general GNOME FAQ, and also documents for > companies interested in supporting GNOME, the project roadmap, etc. This type of thing would go in "The Desktop" area. > > > Screenshots > > An important link to have on the front page, since this is what a lot of > people look for. Idea for structure: Split it up into several different > types of screenshots, like "Basic", "Businesslike", "Applications", > "Oddities", etc. Perhaps make screenshots imagemaps which can be clicked to > bring you to the appindex page of each displayed application? > The problem with this is, it creates a parallel navigation to find screenshots. Say for example, I want screenshots of GTK+ widgets. If I am on www.gtk.org and I click screenshots, I would expect to get GTK+ screenshots, not a long list of differnt types of screenshots. Likewise, if I am in the user section, I probably don't care about widget screenshots - I'd rather see apps and themes. Also, if I am at the GNOME Office page I will expect to see GNOME Office screenshots. Therefore, I suggest that screenshot links be stuck in the most obvious place under the category where it makes sense. This will still make it obvious. It will just be on the sidebar instead of the toplevel. > > Get it > > Describe the various ways to get and install GNOME. CVS, GNOME FTP servers, > Linux distributions which include GNOME, and Helix GNOME would all be > relevant pointers here. It's a matter of resources how much we want to > actually support all of this, but we should at least have instructions for > how to get, build and install GNOME from CVS and GNOME FTP. > All of this would be under "Download". In my opinion, "Download" is a stronger term than "Get it". It is more formal and professional. > > Support > > How to get help with GNOME. All the documentation should be here, as well as > pointers to mailing lists, bugzilla, IRC channels, etc. > A lot of this applies to both "The Desktop" and "Development". Links to this information should be in both locations. I suggest that "Support" sounds potentially like commercial support though, so that term not be used for navigation. > > News > > Gnotices in some shape or form. Basically newsitems with discussion. Same. > > > Software > > A revamped, expanded version of the Appindex. Should let you search for > software in a variety of ways, including category, file types it'll read > and write (very practical for all the people who come onto IRC and say > "What GNOME program can read a .foo file?", and so on. Possibly also an > equivalence index, where people can say "I need something like Outlook", > and it'll take you to Evolution. I suggest that this belongs primarily under "Download", with links in "The Desktop" as well. > > > Developer > > Entry for the developer minded. Basically the combined content of today's > developer.gnome.org and www.gtk.org. Same. > > > Press > > All the info members of the press would need to represent GNOME in a > correct manner. Journalists work under time constraints, so this is where > we have the chance to give them all the info they need in one neat package. > Should include a press kit (possibly in PDF format), a list of contact mail > addresses and phone numbers (I know, phone numbers are so 1985, but some > journalists prefer them), press photos (preferably, each press contact > listed should have a downloadable high-resolution photo for the press to > use when interviewing), representative screenshots (of the nice and simple > variety), and so on. The press kit itself should be a brief presentation of > GNOME, talking about the project history, the foundation, the current > status, what corporate backers there are, etc. This should be under "Contact Us". > > Foundation > > All the formal stuff about the foundation, how a company can join the > advisory board, current board of directors, board meeting minutes, and so > on. The exact content of this section should be up to the people more > directly involved with the foundation, I believe. This might justify another toplevel navigation. I hadn't taken it into consideration. > > Contact > > Ways to contact the GNOME project and the members, for various purposes. > This should definitely be broken down by task, so that bug reports can be > directed to bugzilla, press inquiries to the press section, etc. Under Contact Us. > Events > > An events calendar, listing upcoming tradeshows where GNOME will be > present, as well as scheduled upcoming releases. A link should exist to this from "The Desktop", "Development", and "Contact Us". > People > > Developer index, developer interviews (I'd like to resurrect that section, > even though I only ever did one interview, I think it was a good one, and > it's a great way to show the faces behind the software. Actually, it's such > a good idea that KDE cloned it off our site), and so on. Well, a developer index should go under Contact Us. Developer interviews should go under "News". > > 3.2 Other navigation methods, shortcuts into the structure, etc. > > The structure outlined above is a reasonable main navigational structure, but > one structure will never fit everyone. Hence, I'm suggesting augmenting it > with a few metastructures that will mainly be accessible through the front > page: > > > Role description > > Allow people to choose who they are from a small menu (about ten items, > perhaps), and arrive on a page of quick links for the group they chose. The > links go directly into the structure, and are the ones we believe are > useful for that group, in the order they should be read. > > Quick tasks > > Allow people to choose a few typical tasks from a menu, and go directly to > those pages. These should be the 4-8 pages people visit the most, but that > are still not logical to make into top-level categories. Things that spring > to mind as obvious candidates are "Report a bug", "I need help!", etc. I think both "role description" and "quick tasks" are fixes that are employed on sites that have navigation so difficult as to be usable. Hopefully we can do better and won't need these things. The problem with menu things is people are drawn to them and may ignore the rest of the navigation. > Search the site > > A search box on the front page is a necessity, and should search the entire > site. Yes. -Shawn -- Shawn T. Amundson amundson@eventloop.com Research and Development http://www.eventloop.com/ EventLoop, Inc. http://www.snorfle.net/ "The assumption that the universe looks the same in every direction is clearly not true in reality." - Stephen Hawking From amundson@eventloop.com Tue Dec 19 00:37:11 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from skull.eventloop.com (mail.eventloop.com [209.98.211.225]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA0D12BBA9 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:37:10 -0500 (EST) Received: (from amundson@localhost) by skull.eventloop.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id XAA02394 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:37:10 -0600 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:37:10 -0600 From: Shawn T Amundson To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] Message-ID: <20001218233709.D2120@eventloop.com> Reply-To: Shawn T Amundson Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com>; from joakim@helixcode.com on Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:56:57AM -0600 X-Widget-Set-Url: http://www.gtk.org/ Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:56:57AM -0600, Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > 4. Graphical design > > There have been several quick sketches of the web site look and feel on the > list lately. There seems to be considerable agreement on several aspects of > the graphical design. I've tried to sum up those here, as well as inject some > common sense rules, and some opinions of my own, of course. > > > 4.1 Colors and typefaces > > High contrast is easier to read than low contrast. Dark text on a light > background is easier to read than the opposite. It seems clear that we should > use black text on white or light pastel backgrounds throughout the site, to > keep readability as high as possible. This doesn't, however, exclude the > occasional use of light-on-dark for menus with reasonably few items, etc. > > Typefaces on the web are a difficult problem. While technologies like CSS > give decent control over what typefaces the browser chooses to use, there's > no good, standardized and open method for downloading typefaces, hence one is > limited mainly to specifying sans-serif or serif fonts. Sans fonts are widely > used because they look cleaner, however, serifs theoretically increase > readability, if rendered correctly, but font rendering in web browsers, > especially under X, is abysmal. Thus, it might be worth considering using a > sans font for the GNOME sites. I suggest the site be designed in such a manner that this is dynamic and can be changed easily. Think of having things like a Christmas or Halloween theme. (Ok, these are poor cultural examples, but you get what I'm saying.) Or maybe changing the website "theme" in for GNOME 2.0. > 4.2 Headlines and icons > > For maintainability, headlines should be text only. The current design uses > graphics for some text (most notably the menus), and this has proven to be > difficult to maintain and update. Even though there are techniques for > generating images of text on the fly and caching them, we should try to avoid > this as much as possible. > > It would be good to integrate some icons into the site, since GNOME has very > attractive icons on the desktop, etc. However, keeping the site light on > graphics is probably a good idea, and since icons would have to be specially > created for the site, it's dangerous to rely on them (if we had an icon per > section, adding a new section would entail finding an icon artist to do > another icon in the style of the existing ones). I agree completely. > 4.3 Navigation bars and menus > > There are basically two main layouts used for the main navigation bars > (navigating the main hierarchy). One, which has been the standard for most > sites for a very long time, is the "Along the left side of the page" vertical > menu. The advantages are that we can include basically as many items as we > want, since vertical is the axis people are used to scrolling on anyway. The > disadvantage is that subnavigation is difficult to integrate intuitively > (most attempts use an indenting system, which tends to make the menu very > wide). > > The other, which has become more common lately, is the stacked horizontal > navbars along the top of the page. The advantages of this is that revealing > several levels of navigation is very easy and intuitive, by adding bars below > each other, The disadvantage is that it's somewhat limiting in the number of > items that can be included on each level of navigation. > > Personally, I've come to prefer the stacked horizontal bars, if they're > practical given the navigation structure, for a number of reasons. They stay > out of the way a lot more than the vertical menu (since the vertical menus > usually means wrapping the whole content in a table and putting the menu in a > table cell to the left of it, so that there's essentially a strip of blank > space all the way down below the menu bar), it takes up less screen > realestate in general, and it's a model most people are comfortable with. > > We could optionally also include "breadcrumbs" to make finding out exactly > where you are in the structure simpler (breadcrumbs are the category > > subcategory > current page used on for instance yahoo.) > > If we use horizontal stacked bars, I suggest we place the alternate > navigation methods (user group based, quick links, search) in a column along > one of the sides of the frontpage, possibly in little boxes. Because of the long list of things that might potentially be in the secondary menu, I suggest a more standard horizontal toplevel with the vertical secondary. A dual vertical would be difficult to do properly without using graphical text. In addition, if the site is in that big table, you can flip flop between the differenty styles at will. I think the vertical one will be easier initially. > 5. Localization > > We've amply discussed this. I'm going to write a section on it, but I believe > it's not vital right now, and I really want to just get this document out > there. Perhaps someone who has strong opinions supporting Localization should write a draft of this section. I also believe it is not important at this time, but it will quickly become important when implementation eventually begins. > > 6. Technology > > Technology should be decided after a few days of discussion and fleshing out > of the sections above. > I suggest stating it is tenatively PHP with mySQL, because it sounds like that's what most people are thinking. Obviously the group as a whole won't decide this: the implementors and maintainers of the site will determine it. -Shawn -- Shawn T. Amundson amundson@eventloop.com Research and Development http://www.eventloop.com/ EventLoop, Inc. http://www.snorfle.net/ "The assumption that the universe looks the same in every direction is clearly not true in reality." - Stephen Hawking From amundson@eventloop.com Tue Dec 19 00:52:09 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from skull.eventloop.com (mail.eventloop.com [209.98.211.225]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09EAF2BB7B for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:52:09 -0500 (EST) Received: (from amundson@localhost) by skull.eventloop.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id XAA02477; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:52:07 -0600 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:52:07 -0600 From: Shawn T Amundson To: digitect Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001218235207.E2120@eventloop.com> Reply-To: Shawn T Amundson Mail-Followup-To: digitect , gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <003901c0688a$defbe6c0$0201a8c0@pc001> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <003901c0688a$defbe6c0$0201a8c0@pc001>; from digitect@mindspring.com on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 07:38:41PM -0500 X-Widget-Set-Url: http://www.gtk.org/ Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 07:38:41PM -0500, digitect wrote: > > Anyone else care to chime in with opinions of colors? Joakim and I have been > preaching at each other for quite a few exchanges but I hope we haven't scared > everybody else off. I'll try to keep it down a little until next weekend. I have a hard time visualizing what the site will look like without seeing a full mockup. :-( I will suggest that we might want different color schemes on different parts of the site. For example, the murky brown color might be a good starting point for the development portion of the site, while happier brighter colors might be better for providing info to users. Just a thought. I definately think that GNotices should have a unique look and a branding of it's own, as well as "fit in". -Shawn -- Shawn T. Amundson amundson@eventloop.com Research and Development http://www.eventloop.com/ EventLoop, Inc. http://www.snorfle.net/ "The assumption that the universe looks the same in every direction is clearly not true in reality." - Stephen Hawking From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Tue Dec 19 00:54:58 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 939022BB7B for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:54:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id XAA168182 (8.9.1/50); Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:54:09 -0600 Message-Id: <200012190554.XAA168182@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: 2. Audience (was Re: Design document [Draft 1]) From: Ryan Muldoon To: Shawn T Amundson Cc: Tomas "V.V.Cox" , Joakim Ziegler , gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20001218224106.A2120@eventloop.com> References: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <3A3CC32C.1FF011DA@idecnet.com> <20001218224106.A2120@eventloop.com> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 19 Dec 2000 09:55:14 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > Again, I'd like to stress my belief that the website should feel > like it is for desktop users and developers, not for press and > big business. I agree that it is important information and a very > important group of people, but GNOME's *image* is more important. > I completely agree > I suggest Press things be categorized under "Contact Us". Perhaps > on that page, have a link to the "Press Kit" pages. This will not > be too hard to find for the press. The other portion, a overview > of what GNOME is, should be on the homepage. I suggest that someone > could start writing some nice text for GNOME's front page which is > interesting and pulls you into various areas of the project. > This sounds like a good idea to me > I am curious what specific things are targetted at Businesses and > not just large groups of users (like Universities). > I think the intention was to get businesses looking at the foundation. I guess that this could fit under "contact us" - but we should aim for clarity whenever possible. > I suggest the following top level navigation: > > | | The Desktop | Download | Development | News | Contact Us | > |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > | (Contents Bar)| > | ..... | > | ..... | > | ..... | > | ..... | > | ..... | > |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > | Webmaster | Legal > > Here is what would go in each section: > > The Desktop - All information for the User and non-coding Contributor (www.gnome.org) > Download - Information on downloading GNOME and GNOME Applications (www.gnome.org/download/) > Development - For the developer (developer.gnome.org) > News - News about GNOME (news.gnome.org) > Contact Us - All contact info, press kit, etc. (www.gnome.org/contact_us/) > what about a "Projects" subheading? This might be useful to point to sub-groups, like Documentation, Translation, UI, Sound, etc. The benefit of a "projects" section would be that my "projects of the week" idea would fall nicely under that category. (wording would have to change though...) --Ryan From amundson@eventloop.com Tue Dec 19 01:02:09 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from skull.eventloop.com (mail.eventloop.com [209.98.211.225]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84FCD2BB7B for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 01:02:08 -0500 (EST) Received: (from amundson@localhost) by skull.eventloop.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id AAA02553; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:01:59 -0600 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:01:59 -0600 From: Shawn T Amundson To: Ryan Muldoon Cc: "Tomas V.V.Cox" , Joakim Ziegler , gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: 2. Audience (was Re: Design document [Draft 1]) Message-ID: <20001219000159.F2120@eventloop.com> Reply-To: Shawn T Amundson Mail-Followup-To: Ryan Muldoon , "Tomas V.V.Cox" , Joakim Ziegler , gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <3A3CC32C.1FF011DA@idecnet.com> <20001218224106.A2120@eventloop.com> <200012190554.XAA168182@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012190554.XAA168182@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 09:55:14AM +0500 X-Widget-Set-Url: http://www.gtk.org/ Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 09:55:14AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > > > I am curious what specific things are targetted at Businesses and > > not just large groups of users (like Universities). > > > I think the intention was to get businesses looking at the foundation. > I guess that this could fit under "contact us" - but we should aim for > clarity whenever possible. Ok, I suggest "Foundation" also be a toplevel heading which takes you to the foundation website. > > > I suggest the following top level navigation: > > > > | | The Desktop | Download | Development | News | Contact Us | > > |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > | (Contents Bar)| > > | ..... | > > | ..... | > > | ..... | > > | ..... | > > | ..... | > > |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > | Webmaster | Legal > > > > Here is what would go in each section: > > > > The Desktop - All information for the User and non-coding Contributor (www.gnome.org) > > Download - Information on downloading GNOME and GNOME Applications (www.gnome.org/download/) > > Development - For the developer (developer.gnome.org) > > News - News about GNOME (news.gnome.org) > > Contact Us - All contact info, press kit, etc. (www.gnome.org/contact_us/) > > > what about a "Projects" subheading? This might be useful to point to > sub-groups, like Documentation, Translation, UI, Sound, etc. > > The benefit of a "projects" section would be that my "projects of the week" > idea would fall nicely under that category. (wording would have to change > though...) > This would go under "The Desktop" since they are contributor things. There will be quite a few things on the sidebar, and we should probably go over each area one-by-one and figure out exactly what goes in each area. First we need to agree on an initial set of toplevel navigation controls. If later on we can't resolve where things should go, we start over. -Shawn -- Shawn T. Amundson amundson@eventloop.com Research and Development http://www.eventloop.com/ EventLoop, Inc. http://www.snorfle.net/ "The assumption that the universe looks the same in every direction is clearly not true in reality." - Stephen Hawking From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Tue Dec 19 01:02:50 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1EF72BB7B for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 01:02:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id AAA51320 (8.9.1/50); Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:02:40 -0600 Message-Id: <200012190602.AAA51320@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: GNOME colors From: Ryan Muldoon To: Shawn T Amundson Cc: digitect , gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20001218235207.E2120@eventloop.com> References: <003901c0688a$defbe6c0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001218235207.E2120@eventloop.com> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 19 Dec 2000 10:03:46 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 07:38:41PM -0500, digitect wrote: > > > > Anyone else care to chime in with opinions of colors? Joakim and I have been > > preaching at each other for quite a few exchanges but I hope we haven't scared > > everybody else off. I'll try to keep it down a little until next weekend. > > I have a hard time visualizing what the site will look like > without seeing a full mockup. :-( > I think this is what is holding back most other people on the list as well.... digitect has a decent mockup of some color ideas already.....maybe he can spend a little time working on it to add in his color suggestions? In a couple days I'll try and do the same, as time allows. > I will suggest that we might want different color schemes on > different parts of the site. For example, the murky brown > color might be a good starting point for the development portion > of the site, while happier brighter colors might be better for > providing info to users. Just a thought. I definately think > that GNotices should have a unique look and a branding of it's > own, as well as "fit in". I think a good idea is what digitect mentioned earlier: establishing a set of colors to work with, and then have each subsite be a different arrangement of those colors. It would let each section have its own identity, while being easily associated with the gnome.org umbrella. That gives us a lot of leeway for each section. Some common elements (like text) should be consistent throughout, of course. --Ryan From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Tue Dec 19 01:12:49 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD8422BB7B for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 01:12:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id AAA19364 (8.9.1/50); Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:12:25 -0600 Message-Id: <200012190612.AAA19364@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: 2. Audience (was Re: Design document [Draft 1]) From: Ryan Muldoon To: Shawn T Amundson Cc: Tomas "V.V.Cox" , Joakim Ziegler , gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20001219000159.F2120@eventloop.com> References: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <3A3CC32C.1FF011DA@idecnet.com> <20001218224106.A2120@eventloop.com> <200012190554.XAA168182@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219000159.F2120@eventloop.com> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 19 Dec 2000 10:13:30 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 09:55:14AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > > > > > I am curious what specific things are targetted at Businesses and > > > not just large groups of users (like Universities). > > > > > I think the intention was to get businesses looking at the foundation. > > I guess that this could fit under "contact us" - but we should aim for > > clarity whenever possible. > > Ok, I suggest "Foundation" also be a toplevel heading which takes you to > the foundation website. > ok, that sounds like a good idea > > > > > I suggest the following top level navigation: > > > > > > | | The Desktop | Download | Development | News | Contact Us | > > > |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > | (Contents Bar)| > > > | ..... | > > > | ..... | > > > | ..... | > > > | ..... | > > > | ..... | > > > |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > | Webmaster | Legal > > > > > > Here is what would go in each section: > > > > > > The Desktop - All information for the User and non-coding Contributor (www.gnome.org) > > > Download - Information on downloading GNOME and GNOME Applications (www.gnome.org/download/) > > > Development - For the developer (developer.gnome.org) > > > News - News about GNOME (news.gnome.org) > > > Contact Us - All contact info, press kit, etc. (www.gnome.org/contact_us/) > > > > > what about a "Projects" subheading? This might be useful to point to > > sub-groups, like Documentation, Translation, UI, Sound, etc. > > > > The benefit of a "projects" section would be that my "projects of the week" > > idea would fall nicely under that category. (wording would have to change > > though...) > > > > This would go under "The Desktop" since they are contributor > things. > > There will be quite a few things on the sidebar, and we should > probably go over each area one-by-one and figure out exactly > what goes in each area. First we need to agree on an initial set > of toplevel navigation controls. If later on we can't resolve > where things should go, we start over. > I think that we should avoid things like sub-sub-headings if possible..... I'll try and think about this tomorrow and see if I can come up with a suggested navigation system. --Ryan From amundson@eventloop.com Tue Dec 19 01:13:21 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from skull.eventloop.com (mail.eventloop.com [209.98.211.225]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FDD12BB7B for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 01:13:20 -0500 (EST) Received: (from amundson@localhost) by skull.eventloop.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id AAA02638; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:13:18 -0600 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:13:18 -0600 From: Shawn T Amundson To: Ryan Muldoon Cc: digitect , gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Message-ID: <20001219001318.A2615@eventloop.com> Reply-To: Shawn T Amundson Mail-Followup-To: Ryan Muldoon , digitect , gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <003901c0688a$defbe6c0$0201a8c0@pc001> <20001218235207.E2120@eventloop.com> <200012190602.AAA51320@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012190602.AAA51320@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:03:46AM +0500 X-Widget-Set-Url: http://www.gtk.org/ Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:03:46AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > > I think a good idea is what digitect mentioned earlier: establishing a set of > colors to work with, and then have each subsite be a different arrangement of > those colors. It would let each section have its own identity, while being > easily associated with the gnome.org umbrella. That gives us a lot of leeway > for each section. Some common elements (like text) should be consistent > throughout, of course. > I admit I read through the color thread *really* quickly. ;-) -Shawn -- Shawn T. Amundson amundson@eventloop.com Research and Development http://www.eventloop.com/ EventLoop, Inc. http://www.snorfle.net/ "The assumption that the universe looks the same in every direction is clearly not true in reality." - Stephen Hawking From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Tue Dec 19 08:53:43 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D3E72BEFE for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:53:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148NDD-0006uq-00; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:53:52 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:49:17 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: "Tomas V.V.Cox" , Ryan Muldoon , gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: 2. Audience (was Re: Design document [Draft 1]) Message-ID: <20001219084917.B2280@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: "Tomas V.V.Cox" , Ryan Muldoon , gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <3A3CC32C.1FF011DA@idecnet.com> <20001218224106.A2120@eventloop.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20001218224106.A2120@eventloop.com>; from amundson@eventloop.com on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 10:41:07PM -0600 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 10:41:07PM -0600, Shawn T Amundson wrote: > Again, I'd like to stress my belief that the website should feel > like it is for desktop users and developers, not for press and > big business. I agree that it is important information and a very > important group of people, but GNOME's *image* is more important. > I suggest Press things be categorized under "Contact Us". Perhaps > on that page, have a link to the "Press Kit" pages. This will not > be too hard to find for the press. The other portion, a overview > of what GNOME is, should be on the homepage. I suggest that someone > could start writing some nice text for GNOME's front page which is > interesting and pulls you into various areas of the project. Having press as a top-level navigation category is a good idea, I think. It doesn't skew the focus of the site significantly away from users and developers, since there will be about 10 top level categories no matter what we do. Since press stuff isn't just about contact, but also about a specific type of information, it's very useful to put it all in one place. > I am curious what specific things are targetted at Businesses and > not just large groups of users (like Universities). There are a couple of things. First of all, information on/marketing for the foundation targetted towards businesses who might want to join the advisory board. Secondly, Red Hat have asked me in the past about a place to put information for ISVs who are considering porting their applications to GNOME (and have volunteered to produce that information). > I suggest the following top level navigation: > > | | The Desktop | Download | Development | News | Contact Us | > |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > | (Contents Bar)| > | ..... | > | ..... | > | ..... | > | ..... | > | ..... | > |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > | Webmaster | Legal > Here is what would go in each section: > The Desktop - All information for the User and non-coding Contributor (www.gnome.org) > Download - Information on downloading GNOME and GNOME Applications (www.gnome.org/download/) > Development - For the developer (developer.gnome.org) > News - News about GNOME (news.gnome.org) > Contact Us - All contact info, press kit, etc. (www.gnome.org/contact_us/) > Everything else would be in the sidebar under one of these categories. These categories seem very broad to me. Specifically "The Desktop" would have around 10 subcategories, while "Download" would hardly have any. If "Download" is a top-level category, why isn't "Screenshots"? They're both things people do a lot, and are likely to do immediately. I think the navigational structure needs more thinking. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Tue Dec 19 08:54:56 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8963D2BEFE for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:54:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148NF1-0007rQ-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:55:43 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:51:09 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: 2. Audience (was Re: Design document [Draft 1]) Message-ID: <20001219085109.C2280@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <200012162304.RAA100834@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <3A3CC32C.1FF011DA@idecnet.com> <20001218224106.A2120@eventloop.com> <200012190554.XAA168182@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219000159.F2120@eventloop.com> <200012190612.AAA19364@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012190612.AAA19364@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:13:30AM +0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:13:30AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: >> On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 09:55:14AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: >> There will be quite a few things on the sidebar, and we should >> probably go over each area one-by-one and figure out exactly >> what goes in each area. First we need to agree on an initial set >> of toplevel navigation controls. If later on we can't resolve >> where things should go, we start over. > I think that we should avoid things like sub-sub-headings if possible..... > I'll try and think about this tomorrow and see if I can come up with a > suggested navigation system. Just a word of warning: It's usually very hard to avoid three levels of navigation on a site that has any amount of content at all. This goes double if you want rather few top level categories (like "The Desktop" would be impossible to categorize properly with only one more level under it). -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Tue Dec 19 09:25:25 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B83202BB87 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:25:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148NiW-0004Sj-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:26:12 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:21:37 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] Message-ID: <20001219092137.D2280@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> <20001218232425.C2120@eventloop.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20001218232425.C2120@eventloop.com>; from amundson@eventloop.com on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 11:24:26PM -0600 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 11:24:26PM -0600, Shawn T Amundson wrote: > On Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:56:57AM -0600, Joakim Ziegler wrote: > I think that this is too many things. I already e-mailed this out a few > minutes ago, but I'll repeat so the comments below make sense: > Toplevel categories: > > The Desktop - All information for the User and non-coding Contributor (www.gnome.org) > Download - Information on downloading GNOME and GNOME Applications (www.gnome.org/download/) > Development - For the developer (developer.gnome.org) > News - News about GNOME (news.gnome.org) > Contact Us - All contact info, press kit, etc. (www.gnome.org/contact_us/) > Now, I'll comment on where I think each of the following should land in > my proposed toplevel structure. I think this is too few things, by far. Look at any largish company site that has a set of products and activities ranging as wide as the GNOME project. On the Microsoft frontpage, I count 32 top-level navigation links, not counting the links inside the actual body part of the site, sorted into 6 categories of links. The KDE site has 37 links on the front page navigational structure, separated into 10 categgories of links. Adobe has 7 main navigation categories. Red Hat has 19 links in 6 categories. The new Helix Code site will have 9 top level categories. All are more than 5, some a lot more. (Yes, I'm making the assumption here that these sites do things right. I think that's a reasonable one.) >> About >> Introductory documents. Mainly for those unfamiliar with GNOME in general, >> and who want a quick way to figure out what this is all about. Includes the >> a "What is GNOME" document, the general GNOME FAQ, and also documents for >> companies interested in supporting GNOME, the project roadmap, etc. > This type of thing would go in "The Desktop" area. It's not just about the desktop, though. As I've said so many times that people might actually find it boring already, GNOME is a lot more than a desktop, and the desktop is already the thing getting the most exposure. The other about stuff are introductions to GNOME as a whole, history of the GNOME project, roadmaps and release schedules, what companies are backing GNOME, etc. >> Screenshots >> An important link to have on the front page, since this is what a lot of >> people look for. Idea for structure: Split it up into several different >> types of screenshots, like "Basic", "Businesslike", "Applications", >> "Oddities", etc. Perhaps make screenshots imagemaps which can be clicked to >> bring you to the appindex page of each displayed application? > The problem with this is, it creates a parallel navigation to > find screenshots. Say for example, I want screenshots of GTK+ > widgets. If I am on www.gtk.org and I click screenshots, I > would expect to get GTK+ screenshots, not a long list of differnt > types of screenshots. Likewise, if I am in the user section, > I probably don't care about widget screenshots - I'd rather see > apps and themes. Also, if I am at the GNOME Office page I will > expect to see GNOME Office screenshots. > Therefore, I suggest that screenshot links be stuck in the most > obvious place under the category where it makes sense. This will > still make it obvious. It will just be on the sidebar instead > of the toplevel. There's nothing wrong with parallel navigation. In fact, just about any nontrivial information structure will have to tangle the hierarchy, or you'll have incredible headaches about where to put stuff. A good way to do the screenshots thing would likely be to make it a trivial script, so you can ask for screenshots including a specific app/widget/whatever. You'll end up with parallel navigation no matter what, since if you're on the page for an app, and click on "Download", you should be taken to the "Download" section. >> Get it >> >> Describe the various ways to get and install GNOME. CVS, GNOME FTP servers, >> Linux distributions which include GNOME, and Helix GNOME would all be >> relevant pointers here. It's a matter of resources how much we want to >> actually support all of this, but we should at least have instructions for >> how to get, build and install GNOME from CVS and GNOME FTP. > All of this would be under "Download". In my opinion, "Download" is a > stronger term than "Get it". It is more formal and professional. Sure, this could be renamed. What are other people's opinion? >> Support >> How to get help with GNOME. All the documentation should be here, as well as >> pointers to mailing lists, bugzilla, IRC channels, etc. >> > A lot of this applies to both "The Desktop" and "Development". Links to > this information should be in both locations. I suggest that "Support" > sounds potentially like commercial support though, so that term not be used > for navigation. Commercial support should probably be in here too, actually. There's a reasonably large number of companies offering commercial support at the moment (take a look at http://www.gnome.org/commsupp.html ). I think support is a good candidate for a top level categorie precisely because it applies to several other areas. Tangling the hierarchy with something that's just linked to from two different branches, but isn't accessible on its own seems very counterintuitive to me. >> Software >> A revamped, expanded version of the Appindex. Should let you search for >> software in a variety of ways, including category, file types it'll read >> and write (very practical for all the people who come onto IRC and say >> "What GNOME program can read a .foo file?", and so on. Possibly also an >> equivalence index, where people can say "I need something like Outlook", >> and it'll take you to Evolution. > I suggest that this belongs primarily under "Download", with links in > "The Desktop" as well. Downloading the software is just a small part of what you do with it, though. And some of it also belongs in "Developer", since there will be libraries and development tools and whatnot. This spread suggests to me that it should be its own category. >> Press >> All the info members of the press would need to represent GNOME in a >> correct manner. Journalists work under time constraints, so this is where >> we have the chance to give them all the info they need in one neat package. >> Should include a press kit (possibly in PDF format), a list of contact mail >> addresses and phone numbers (I know, phone numbers are so 1985, but some >> journalists prefer them), press photos (preferably, each press contact >> listed should have a downloadable high-resolution photo for the press to >> use when interviewing), representative screenshots (of the nice and simple >> variety), and so on. The press kit itself should be a brief presentation of >> GNOME, talking about the project history, the foundation, the current >> status, what corporate backers there are, etc. > This should be under "Contact Us". Actually, if we were to put it somewhere, I'd put it in "About" (Which I'm 100% sure is a good idea to have as a top-level item, per the reasons above). >> Events >> An events calendar, listing upcoming tradeshows where GNOME will be >> present, as well as scheduled upcoming releases. > A link should exist to this from "The Desktop", "Development", and > "Contact Us". Actually, it might belong on news.gnome.org (in other words, under "News", now that I think about it. The main problem with the events page as it is, is that it's hard to keep it up to date, traditionally. >> People >> Developer index, developer interviews (I'd like to resurrect that section, >> even though I only ever did one interview, I think it was a good one, and >> it's a great way to show the faces behind the software. Actually, it's such >> a good idea that KDE cloned it off our site), and so on. > Well, a developer index should go under Contact Us. Developer interviews > should go under "News". They're not really news, though. If you were looking to find out who the people behind GNOME were, would "News" be your first choice? I think keeping people as a top level category has a strong symbolic effect too, in this time of corporate involvement. >> Role description >> Allow people to choose who they are from a small menu (about ten items, >> perhaps), and arrive on a page of quick links for the group they chose. The >> links go directly into the structure, and are the ones we believe are >> useful for that group, in the order they should be read. >> Quick tasks >> Allow people to choose a few typical tasks from a menu, and go directly to >> those pages. These should be the 4-8 pages people visit the most, but that >> are still not logical to make into top-level categories. Things that spring >> to mind as obvious candidates are "Report a bug", "I need help!", etc. > I think both "role description" and "quick tasks" are fixes that are employed > on sites that have navigation so difficult as to be usable. Hopefully we > can do better and won't need these things. The problem with menu things is > people are drawn to them and may ignore the rest of the navigation. They can be that, but it's by no means necessary. Role oriented navigation is a valid navigational metaphor, and "Quick links" are an excellent way to point the way to things that are often used, but aren't top level categories. In fact, if we cut down on the number of categories, the quick links would be even more important (screenshots would become one, for instance). -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Tue Dec 19 09:30:05 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9E9E2DD19 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:30:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148Nn2-0000IO-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:30:52 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:26:18 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] Message-ID: <20001219092618.E2280@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> <20001218233709.D2120@eventloop.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20001218233709.D2120@eventloop.com>; from amundson@eventloop.com on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 11:37:10PM -0600 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 11:37:10PM -0600, Shawn T Amundson wrote: > On Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:56:57AM -0600, Joakim Ziegler wrote: > I suggest the site be designed in such a manner that this is dynamic > and can be changed easily. Think of having things like a Christmas or > Halloween theme. (Ok, these are poor cultural examples, but you get > what I'm saying.) Or maybe changing the website "theme" in for GNOME > 2.0. This is fairly easy no matter what, I think, if we use PHP or such for generating the pages. Headers and footers for the site would just be function calls, etc. > Because of the long list of things that might potentially be in the > secondary menu, I suggest a more standard horizontal toplevel with > the vertical secondary. > A dual vertical would be difficult to do properly without using > graphical text. > In addition, if the site is in that big table, you can flip flop > between the differenty styles at will. I think the vertical one > will be easier initially. I think we should let this wait until we've figured out the navigational structure. With the one I proposed, the number of items on the second level wouldn't be that high, while with your proposal, it would be. >> 5. Localization >> We've amply discussed this. I'm going to write a section on it, but I believe >> it's not vital right now, and I really want to just get this document out >> there. > Perhaps someone who has strong opinions supporting Localization should write > a draft of this section. I also believe it is not important at this time, but > it will quickly become important when implementation eventually begins. Yes, that would be great. Any takers? >> 6. Technology >> Technology should be decided after a few days of discussion and fleshing out >> of the sections above. > I suggest stating it is tenatively PHP with mySQL, because it sounds > like that's what most people are thinking. Obviously the group as a > whole won't decide this: the implementors and maintainers of the site > will determine it. I agree. Duly noted for the next draft. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From mark@websidestory.com Tue Dec 19 11:52:08 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.websidestory.com (mail1.websidestory.com [208.232.223.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E9442BC51 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:52:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from websidestory.com (pip-1.hitbox.com [209.75.20.72]) by mail1.websidestory.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id eBJGq7E28383 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:52:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A3F9374.6E11A9E9@websidestory.com> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:57:24 -0800 From: Mark Koopman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> <20001218232425.C2120@eventloop.com> <20001219092137.D2280@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > >> Get it > >> > >> Describe the various ways to get and install GNOME. CVS, GNOME FTP servers, > >> Linux distributions which include GNOME, and Helix GNOME would all be > >> relevant pointers here. It's a matter of resources how much we want to > >> actually support all of this, but we should at least have instructions for > >> how to get, build and install GNOME from CVS and GNOME FTP. > > > All of this would be under "Download". In my opinion, "Download" is a > > stronger term than "Get it". It is more formal and professional. > > Sure, this could be renamed. What are other people's opinion? > unless some naming convention is what we want to follow, 'Download' IMO is much more concise, widely accepted and understood. > >> Software > > >> A revamped, expanded version of the Appindex. Should let you search for > >> software in a variety of ways, including category, file types it'll read > >> and write (very practical for all the people who come onto IRC and say > >> "What GNOME program can read a .foo file?", and so on. Possibly also an > >> equivalence index, where people can say "I need something like Outlook", > >> and it'll take you to Evolution. > > > I suggest that this belongs primarily under "Download", with links in > > "The Desktop" as well. > > Downloading the software is just a small part of what you do with it, though. > And some of it also belongs in "Developer", since there will be libraries and > development tools and whatnot. This spread suggests to me that it should be > its own category. > maybe off a Download page, have links for each app that links to it's appropriate Appindex page? Sourceforge-ish style, perhaps? > >> Press > > >> All the info members of the press would need to represent GNOME in a > >> correct manner. Journalists work under time constraints, so this is where > >> we have the chance to give them all the info they need in one neat package. > >> Should include a press kit (possibly in PDF format), a list of contact mail > >> addresses and phone numbers (I know, phone numbers are so 1985, but some > >> journalists prefer them), press photos (preferably, each press contact > >> listed should have a downloadable high-resolution photo for the press to > >> use when interviewing), representative screenshots (of the nice and simple > >> variety), and so on. The press kit itself should be a brief presentation of > >> GNOME, talking about the project history, the foundation, the current > >> status, what corporate backers there are, etc. > > > This should be under "Contact Us". > > Actually, if we were to put it somewhere, I'd put it in "About" (Which I'm > 100% sure is a good idea to have as a top-level item, per the reasons above). > i vote About! Press information should be in an About page, because an About section is a easily understood link that leads anyone to know more 'about' something. the Press's main purpose is to inform the public 'about' things. :) #!/usr/local/bin/perl # Mark Koopman - mark@websidestory.com # Software Engineer # # WebSideStory, Inc # # 10182 Telesis Court # San Diego CA 92121 # 858.546.1182.##.318 # 858.546.0480.fax eval(lc(join('', map ({chr}(q( 49877273766940 80827378843973 32767986693280 69827639463932 39883673434341 ))=~/../g)))); From ulf@obsession.se Tue Dec 19 13:17:41 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from angel.algonet.se (angel.algonet.se [194.213.74.112]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B5C982BB95 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:17:40 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 522 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2000 19:17:34 +0100 Received: from garibaldi.tninet.se (HELO algonet.se) (195.100.94.103) by angel.algonet.se with SMTP; 19 Dec 2000 19:17:34 +0100 Received: from obsession.se (sdu95-77.ppp.algonet.se [195.163.77.95]) by garibaldi.tninet.se (BLUETAIL Mail Robustifier 2.2.1) with ESMTP id 49810.249853.977garibaldi-s2 ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 19:17:33 +0100 Message-ID: <3A40F7E0.4CF245AF@obsession.se> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:18:08 +0100 From: Ulf Pettersson Reply-To: ulf@obsession.se Organization: Obsession Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: digitect@mindspring.com, gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: On colour References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > Oops, I guess I didn't mean to suggest that we use ALL these colors on one page... ...I would heartily agree that no artist could/should work out a composition with even half of them! That does feel a lot better. > But thanks for bringing it up, because I'm wondering if you think that's a valid approach. In general, yes. But i would choose a few primary colours first and work out the variations as I designed the actual pages. > I've been thinking that each major section should be a variation of one theme. Good idea. >But do you think GNOME should have our different sub-sites look different, or all the same? Different, definately. But the _main_ difference should come from the fact that the content is different, not from different visual profiles. Visual consistency is a big problem in free software design, the value of branding and placing products in a 'family' is vastly underrated. Isn't one of the main tasks of this list to make all the Gnome web sites use the same visual profile? > I'll also say that there are more than just two theories about what constitutes "good" color composition, although the two you mention are the most common. Certainly. It just didn't seem to me like much of any theory was used at all, with colours from all across the spectrum without priorities ;). I narrowmindedly expected people on this list only to be some variation of perl-hacker/programmer and in my experience they never know anything about (perceptive) colour-theory. I'm not that good with colour anyway, I can never choose. > http://www.kitchen-emporium.com/colour.html Thanks. > I'm particularly fond of neutral, but that's because I'm an architect. Doesn't really surprise me, given those colours. > Wow, it's tough to discuss this stuff in writing! Thanks for bearing with me. It is yes, even tougher having to do it in second-language English. Ulf Pettersson From ulf@obsession.se Tue Dec 19 15:41:38 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from knatte.tninet.se (knatte.tninet.se [195.100.94.10]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8DB7B2BBE3 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:41:37 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 2724 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2000 21:41:36 +0100 Received: from garibaldi.tninet.se (HELO algonet.se) (195.100.94.103) by knatte.tninet.se with SMTP; 19 Dec 2000 21:41:36 +0100 Received: from obsession.se (sdu95-77.ppp.algonet.se [195.163.77.95]) by garibaldi.tninet.se (BLUETAIL Mail Robustifier 2.2.1) with ESMTP id 208082.258495.977garibaldi-s0 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:41:35 +0100 Message-ID: <3A4119A4.24FB39FA@obsession.se> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:42:12 +0100 From: Ulf Pettersson Reply-To: ulf@obsession.se Organization: Obsession Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: [Fwd: Re: On colour] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work >Secondly, a desktop and a > web site are so different media that it would be a bad idea to try to unify > them too much (Apple were only able to unify their web site and desktop after > they turned the desktop into a visual circus of useless chrome, which has > received more or less unanimous bad reviews from usability experts, and The point is not to unify them in a practical sense but in a branding sense. Of course it would be wrong to use ui features as buttons or visual elements on the website or excess in graphics just because you want an exact os look. Ulf Pettersson From ulf@obsession.se Tue Dec 19 15:42:40 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from hromeo.algonet.se (hromeo.algonet.se [194.213.74.51]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7918A2BBE3 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:42:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 16217 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2000 21:42:37 +0100 Received: from garibaldi.tninet.se (HELO algonet.se) (195.100.94.103) by hromeo.algonet.se with SMTP; 19 Dec 2000 21:42:37 +0100 Received: from obsession.se (sdu95-77.ppp.algonet.se [195.163.77.95]) by garibaldi.tninet.se (BLUETAIL Mail Robustifier 2.2.1) with ESMTP id 899174.258556.977garibaldi-s2 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:42:36 +0100 Message-ID: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:43:14 +0100 From: Ulf Pettersson Reply-To: ulf@obsession.se Organization: Obsession Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: GNOME colors Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > I will suggest that we might want different color schemes on > different parts of the site. Completely different color schemes is not a good suggestion. It will break the consistency of the site. > For example, the murky brown > color might be a good starting point for the development portion > of the site, while happier brighter colors might be better for > providing info to users. Just a thought. I definately think > that GNotices should have a unique look and a branding of it's > own, as well as "fit in". Why? Ulf Pettersson From ulf@obsession.se Tue Dec 19 16:03:15 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from musse.tninet.se (musse.tninet.se [195.100.94.12]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B42382C9FE for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:03:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 5797 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2000 22:03:11 +0100 Received: from garibaldi.tninet.se (HELO algonet.se) (195.100.94.103) by musse.tninet.se with SMTP; 19 Dec 2000 22:03:11 +0100 Received: from obsession.se (sdu95-77.ppp.algonet.se [195.163.77.95]) by garibaldi.tninet.se (BLUETAIL Mail Robustifier 2.2.1) with ESMTP id 586130.259790.977garibaldi-s2 ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:03:10 +0100 Message-ID: <3A411E99.ACB7E6C0@obsession.se> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:03:21 +0100 From: Ulf Pettersson Reply-To: ulf@obsession.se Organization: Obsession Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joakim Ziegler , gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Design document [Draft 1] References: <20001214115657.B13154@helixcode.com> <20001218232425.C2120@eventloop.com> <20001219092137.D2280@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > This type of thing would go in "The Desktop" area. > > It's not just about the desktop, though. As I've said so many times that > people might actually find it boring already, GNOME is a lot more than a > desktop, and the desktop is already the thing getting the most exposure. The > other about stuff are introductions to GNOME as a whole, history of the GNOME > project, roadmaps and release schedules, what companies are backing GNOME, etc. Desktop just isn't a good choice as a top-level category. I would not understand what to find there. Joakims original proposal was better. > >> Screenshots > > Therefore, I suggest that screenshot links be stuck in the most > > obvious place under the category where it makes sense. This will > > still make it obvious. It will just be on the sidebar instead > > of the toplevel. > > There's nothing wrong with parallel navigation. In fact, just about any > nontrivial information structure will have to tangle the hierarchy, or you'll Good point. However it must be combined with a very strict and consistent hierarchy. This is not easy of course. > > All of this would be under "Download". In my opinion, "Download" is a > > stronger term than "Get it". It is more formal and professional. > > Sure, this could be renamed. What are other people's opinion? I don't know about formal or professional but Download is a lot easier for me to understand (as swedish native). It is also the term used most widely, for sure. Ulf Pettersson From jdub@aphid.net Tue Dec 19 17:47:11 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mr14.vic-remote.bigpond.net.au (mr14.vic-remote.bigpond.net.au [24.192.1.29]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DE682D484 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 17:47:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (CPE-61-9-177-91.vic.bigpond.net.au [61.9.177.91]) by mr14.vic-remote.bigpond.net.au (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA20426 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:47:01 +1100 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0BC9F39560; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:46:53 +1100 (EST) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:46:53 +1100 From: Jeff Waugh To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: GNOME Sites & Colour Coding Message-ID: <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> Mail-Followup-To: Jeff Waugh , gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se>; from ulf@obsession.se on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:43:14PM +0100 X-Message: Leenooks, Lienucks, Leenoos, Lienus, Let's call the whole thing off. X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.17 i686 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > > I will suggest that we might want different color schemes on > > different parts of the site. > > Completely different color schemes is not a good suggestion. It will break the > consistency of the site. You'll find that he means s/different/complementary/ -> this is a good idea, and makes navigation much clearer. Have I missed any? (I'm almost sure I have.) gnome.org news.gnome.org developer.gnome.org foundation.gnome.org (gnome-foundation.org, etc) gtk.org - Jeff -- jdub@aphid.net ----------------------------- http://lazarus.aphid.net/ -- "Can we have a special TELSABUG category, and everything gets dropped to fix them first?" - Telsa Gwynne From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Tue Dec 19 18:37:30 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05E3E2BBFC for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:37:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id RAA24628 (8.9.1/50); Tue, 19 Dec 2000 17:37:22 -0600 Message-Id: <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Navigation Proposal From: Ryan Muldoon To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 20 Dec 2000 03:38:28 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Since I had a bit of time on my hands, I tried to think of a slighly more intuitive way to arrange navigation for the GNOME sites. This may or may not translate well for gtk.org .....I think that gtk.org's main page will have to just have a different (more sparse) set of navigational links, and then all of the links will go to pages with gnome.org-style navigation. Basically, my goal was to cut down on the number of main sections. It seemed like a bad idea to me to have 10 top-level sections. I cut it down to 6, and still managed (I think) to cover all the bases that Joakim's proposal did. I also managed to sneak in my "Project of the Week." My current thinking is that we should try to have a different "main" color for each section (from the pool of colors we will decide on), and then use the other colors for accents. That way, we keep with the same colors throughout, but give each site it's own look. Anyway, please feel free to give me some criticism. I tried to model this after my structural suggestion for how the websites should be organized (from my email "initial structure ideas" from a month ago). About Press Kit Screenshots FAQ List of Contributors Community IRC info GNOME roadmap Project of the Week Developer Interviews Mailing lists Events News Development Tutorials Whitepapers API Reference CVS Foundation Charter Meeting Minutes Board Members Advisory Board Membership Projects Localization UI Hitsquad Sound Documentation Software Application List Bugzilla Download From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Tue Dec 19 22:31:20 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92CB92BF82 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:31:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148ZzB-0008TK-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 04:32:13 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:27:31 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:38:28AM +0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:38:28AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > About > Press Kit > Screenshots > FAQ > List of Contributors > Community > IRC info > GNOME roadmap > Project of the Week > Developer Interviews > Mailing lists > Events > News > Development > Tutorials > Whitepapers > API Reference > CVS > Foundation > Charter > Meeting Minutes > Board Members > Advisory Board > Membership > Projects > Localization > UI Hitsquad > Sound > Documentation > Software > Application List > Bugzilla > Download I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" not being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick links". Hm. Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than my proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be improved further. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From cardinal@dodds.net Tue Dec 19 23:12:50 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from norad.dodds.net (norad.dodds.net [206.65.64.207]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08CED2BBB2 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:12:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by norad.dodds.net (Postfix, from userid 522) id 28921C200; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:12:49 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by norad.dodds.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 224C8C1FF; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:12:49 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:12:48 -0600 (CST) From: Matt McClanahan To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal In-Reply-To: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Tue, 19 Dec 2000, Joakim Ziegler wrote: > On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:38:28AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > > > About > > Press Kit > > Screenshots > > FAQ > > List of Contributors > > Community > > IRC info > > GNOME roadmap > > Project of the Week > > Developer Interviews > > Mailing lists > > Events > > News (snip) > > Software > > Application List > > Bugzilla > > Download > > I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" not > being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick links". Hm. > Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than my > proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be > improved further. I'd tend to agree on the News, but I've never seen downloads as being a 'primary' link off of the landing page. I suppose access logs could easilly prove me wrong, but putting it under software makes sense to me. Wouldn't there be a brief news summary on the landing page anyway, which could then provide the direct link to the news page? The press kit also seems something that would intuitively go in an 'About' section. On many corporate (Not intending to draw a parallel of course, just citing examples) sites I've seen, 'About' tends to be a single link from the landing page, which is then broken down into company info, investor relations, press kit, and whatever else. Matt From webmaven@lvcm.com Tue Dec 19 23:41:09 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams3.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.77]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 787502BBB2 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:41:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.231.69]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Tue, 19 Dec 2000 20:42:05 -0800 Message-ID: <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:50:49 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > [snip] > > I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" not > being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick links". Hm. > Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than my > proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be > improved further. This is quite a bit closer to a purely topical heirarchy, with action items (verbs) relegated to leaf nodes (except for quick links/in-line links). I would suggest further modifying the heirarchy by: - Moving the roadmap under the 'About' category - Creating 'GTK' and 'Gnome Desktop' sub headings under 'Software' - Moving the 'Development' category under 'Software' - Moving 'Projects' under either 'Software' or 'Community' This would leave us with four top level categories of content: * About GNOME * GNOME Community * GNOME Foundation * GNOME Software Which should be all encompassing, and fairly clear as to where to look to find what you want. With only four top level categories, these can be represented by a row of buttons across the top, and second and third level navigation can be accomplished with a right- or left-handed vertical bar. HTH, Michael Bernstein From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Tue Dec 19 23:53:57 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F6D52CE64 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:53:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148bH7-0000sh-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 05:54:50 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:50:07 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001219235007.H1013@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com>; from webmaven@lvcm.com on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:50:49PM -0800 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:50:49PM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: > Joakim Ziegler wrote: >> I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" not >> being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick links". Hm. >> Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than my >> proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be >> improved further. > This is quite a bit closer to a purely topical heirarchy, > with action items (verbs) relegated to leaf nodes (except > for quick links/in-line links). I would suggest further > modifying the heirarchy by: > - Moving the roadmap under the 'About' category > - Creating 'GTK' and 'Gnome Desktop' sub headings under > 'Software' > - Moving the 'Development' category under 'Software' > - Moving 'Projects' under either 'Software' or 'Community' > This would leave us with four top level categories of > content: > * About GNOME > * GNOME Community > * GNOME Foundation > * GNOME Software > Which should be all encompassing, and fairly clear as to > where to look to find what you want. With only four top > level categories, these can be represented by a row of > buttons across the top, and second and third level > navigation can be accomplished with a right- or left-handed > vertical bar. While nice in theory, I think this falls into the "too much abstraction" trap. Yes, it's a really nicely topical, logical hierarchy, but people expect stuff like "Development" to be a top level header. Remember, we're not aiming for the perfect categorization system here (Dewey Decimal works really well, but it's hell to navigate for people who don't know it), we're aiming for something that's optimal to use. That means as few clicks as possible to the stuff that people use the most. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From shax82@hotmail.com Wed Dec 20 01:39:38 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from hotmail.com (oe27.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.236.247]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B38F82BB41 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:39:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:39:37 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [148.246.89.138] From: "Felipe Contreras" To: "Gnome Web List" , "Joakim Ziegler" References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <20001219235007.H1013@helixcode.com> Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal: desktop.gnome.org Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:55:20 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Dec 2000 06:39:37.0066 (UTC) FILETIME=[9F1AACA0:01C06A4F] Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joakim Ziegler" Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal > On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:50:49PM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: > > Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > >> I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" not > >> being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick links". Hm. > >> Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than my > >> proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be > >> improved further. > > > This is quite a bit closer to a purely topical heirarchy, > > with action items (verbs) relegated to leaf nodes (except > > for quick links/in-line links). I would suggest further > > modifying the heirarchy by: > > > - Moving the roadmap under the 'About' category > > - Creating 'GTK' and 'Gnome Desktop' sub headings under > > 'Software' > > - Moving the 'Development' category under 'Software' > > - Moving 'Projects' under either 'Software' or 'Community' > > > This would leave us with four top level categories of > > content: > > > * About GNOME > > * GNOME Community > > * GNOME Foundation > > * GNOME Software > > > Which should be all encompassing, and fairly clear as to > > where to look to find what you want. With only four top > > level categories, these can be represented by a row of > > buttons across the top, and second and third level > > navigation can be accomplished with a right- or left-handed > > vertical bar. > > While nice in theory, I think this falls into the "too much abstraction" > trap. Yes, it's a really nicely topical, logical hierarchy, but people expect > stuff like "Development" to be a top level header. > > Remember, we're not aiming for the perfect categorization system here (Dewey > Decimal works really well, but it's hell to navigate for people who don't > know it), we're aiming for something that's optimal to use. That means as few > clicks as possible to the stuff that people use the most. I was just thinking... Ok, GNOME is more than the desktop, so let's supose that I'm a GNOME's desktop user, so it could be good, to let's say I can find everything I want in desktop.gnome.org or just let's keep clear in mind what "GNOME" is and how can it be divided. In fact honestly I thought it was just the desktop, so I think a positioning statement whould help a lot to decide wich whould be the final site's structure. From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Wed Dec 20 02:11:47 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57F5E2BB41 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:11:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id BAA62748 (8.9.1/50); Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:11:43 -0600 Message-Id: <200012200711.BAA62748@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal From: Ryan Muldoon To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 20 Dec 2000 11:12:47 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:38:28AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: > > > About > > Press Kit > > Screenshots > > FAQ > > List of Contributors > > Community > > IRC info > > GNOME roadmap > > Project of the Week > > Developer Interviews > > Mailing lists > > Events > > News > > Development > > Tutorials > > Whitepapers > > API Reference > > CVS > > Foundation > > Charter > > Meeting Minutes > > Board Members > > Advisory Board > > Membership > > Projects > > Localization > > UI Hitsquad > > Sound > > Documentation > > Software > > Application List > > Bugzilla > > Download > > I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" not > being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick links". Hm. > Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than my > proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be > improved further. My rationale for your comments: Press: Press kit seems like it would be "about" GNOME, and I don't know how many subsections it would have, and if they really need to be quickly accessed in the general case. News: What does this really include other than Gnotices? I couldn't come up with anything, so if it were a category, it would be empty. Also, I would imagine that the front page will have news as well, anyway Download: It seems like a single action item, that I do with the category "software." Download has a download page...what else? Nonstandard GNOME software would have download links in the Application List, I'd imagine. I've been working on a quick mockup of a front page (without any graphics for now, as I really shouldn't be the one to make them) to test out some colors, and the navigation. I changed "IRC info" to "Support", which seemed to make more sense, as IRC is kind of specific. Support would have that information. Once I have a little more time to work with colors, I will post the mockup for general critique. It certainly isn't meant to express the final look of the site - its point is to address whether the colors we are thinking about and the navigation structure is usable. --Ryan From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Wed Dec 20 02:16:10 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 112A72BB41 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:16:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id BAA171370 (8.9.1/50); Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:15:46 -0600 Message-Id: <200012200715.BAA171370@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal From: Ryan Muldoon To: Michael Bernstein Cc: Joakim Ziegler , gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 20 Dec 2000 11:16:51 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > > > [snip] > > > > I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" not > > being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick links". Hm. > > Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than my > > proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be > > improved further. > > This is quite a bit closer to a purely topical heirarchy, > with action items (verbs) relegated to leaf nodes (except > for quick links/in-line links). I would suggest further > modifying the heirarchy by: > > - Moving the roadmap under the 'About' category > Why? It seems like the roadmap would be for the community. > - Creating 'GTK' and 'Gnome Desktop' sub headings under > 'Software' > I think part of the point is that we want to integrate GTK stuff with GNOME stuff, not separate them out. We want to push the GNOME platform. > - Moving the 'Development' category under 'Software' > This is definitely wrong.....people look for Development information. There is a lot of it. It should be in a section by itself. > - Moving 'Projects' under either 'Software' or 'Community' > Projects are pretty big by themselves.....they should have their own section. > This would leave us with four top level categories of > content: > > * About GNOME > > * GNOME Community > > * GNOME Foundation > > * GNOME Software > > Which should be all encompassing, and fairly clear as to > where to look to find what you want. With only four top > level categories, these can be represented by a row of > buttons across the top, and second and third level > navigation can be accomplished with a right- or left-handed > vertical bar. > I agree with Joakim here - this is too much simplification. We want to be able to get at information without too many clicks. I cut down from the initial 10 because that seemed like too many categories, and it wasn't easy to quickly understand. With too few categories, you run into the same problem. --Ryan From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Wed Dec 20 02:34:08 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65CD92CCF3 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:33:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.151.32.23] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id BAA57916 (8.9.1/50); Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:33:10 -0600 Message-Id: <200012200733.BAA57916@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Subject: Really Quick Mockup From: Ryan Muldoon To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <200012200715.BAA171370@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <200012200715.BAA171370@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.6 (Developer Preview) Date: 20 Dec 2000 11:34:15 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work I have put up a mockup (heavily based on digitect's most recent mockup) of what I've been thinking about for how Navigation could work, and colors. What I would like to do, but don't have the time to do at the moment, is come up with a main color for each of the sections, and use that for the background color of the section heading. Ideally, all of these would come from Joakim's color comp, as the first two colors did. I really liked the grey text that digitect started with. I darkened the link color a bit, and did some other minor touchups. As I said before, this is for testing colors, fonts, and navigation. I'd like to leave the real templates to the artists of the group, as I'm definitely not one of them. I apologize for not putting up a completed mockup, but I am going home for the holidays tomorrow, so I figured that I would put something up for people to look at, rather than wait. Release early, release often, as I recall. http://www.illuminagraphic.com/dev/gnome/ --Ryan From michel@expocentro.com Wed Dec 20 07:20:27 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from barney.springfield (barney.ipsa.com.ar [200.47.2.9]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5613F2D399 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 07:20:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.springfield (milhouse.springfield [172.16.20.39]) by barney.springfield (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA96755 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:19:54 -0300 (ART) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:19:28 -0300 From: Michel Martens To: Gnome Web List Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: ; from cardinal@dodds.net on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:12:48 -0300 X-Mailer: Balsa 1.0.0 Lines: 29 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On 2000.12.20 01:12:48 -0300 Matt McClanahan wrote: > > I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" > not > > being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick > links". Hm. > > Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than > my > > proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be > > improved further. > > I'd tend to agree on the News, but I've never seen downloads as being a > 'primary' link off of the landing page. I suppose access logs could > easilly prove me wrong, but putting it under software makes sense to me. > Wouldn't there be a brief news summary on the landing page anyway, which > could then provide the direct link to the news page? Couldn't we get access to the logs of www.gnome.org? I think it could be a good starting point to see what are the visitors requesting. That will give us the big picture of what is important for the users and will give us a good idea of how we could arrange the site's navigation structure to meet their requirements. Michel. From digitect@mindspring.com Wed Dec 20 08:01:11 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from maynard.mail.mindspring.net (maynard.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.243]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEFD32BF58 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 08:01:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf2uq.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.139.218]) by maynard.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA12817 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 08:01:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <009501c06a84$ec48df80$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> Subject: Re: GNOME colors Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 08:01:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work I'm going to start trying to put some themed color compositions together towards the end of the week so we can visualize how this (my palette) might work across the many sub-sites. I won't specify which is intended for which area so that you can read into them what you want. I realize that the color palettes Joakim and I posted are pretty abstract and are hard to visualize. But it's going to take some time to think through each sub-site's composition for mockups. Mine will be basic blocks of color in the proportion and shape that we might use them, at 50% scale. It will help us to discuss color composition and their possibilities without actually designing the pages. I have been keeping up with all the comps that everyone has submitted to date (I think) so that I don't have to go back through the emails. They're at http://www.mindspring.com/~digitect/gnome/ if you're interested. I've also posted a revised color comp (Steve Hall 02) here that is probably a little more balanced and expressive of my neutral idea. Are there any other color palette proposals? We're going to need to start moving on this soon if we are ever to get through actual page design. Even though we've made some good progress on discussing color and structure, I'm anticipating that marrying these two will be quite the main event. Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From webmaven@lvcm.com Wed Dec 20 10:43:40 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams4.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.78]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DCE22BB74 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:43:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.231.69]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Wed, 20 Dec 2000 07:45:22 -0800 Message-ID: <3A40F218.A3A42DD1@lvcm.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:53:28 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <20001219235007.H1013@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:50:49PM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: > > > > This would leave us with four top level categories of > > content: > > > * About GNOME > > * GNOME Community > > * GNOME Foundation > > * GNOME Software > > > Which should be all encompassing, and fairly clear as to > > where to look to find what you want. With only four top > > level categories, these can be represented by a row of > > buttons across the top, and second and third level > > navigation can be accomplished with a right- or left-handed > > vertical bar. > > While nice in theory, I think this falls into the "too much abstraction" > trap. Yes, it's a really nicely topical, logical hierarchy, but people expect > stuff like "Development" to be a top level header. I disagree. I think it's worth not creating a mixed noun/verb categorization schema, and you'll actually confuse people more if you don't excersize retsraint in this regard. If I'm looking for documentation, do I find it under 'Software' or under 'Development'? > Remember, we're not aiming for the perfect categorization system here (Dewey > Decimal works really well, but it's hell to navigate for people who don't > know it), we're aiming for something that's optimal to use. That means as few > clicks as possible to the stuff that people use the most. That comparison's a bit unfair. Dewey decimal attempts to categorize all human knowledge, We're just trying to categorize all of GNOME. And as far as the 'few clicks as possible' goes, you've already noted that quick links and in-line text links can give access to items deep within the heirarchy. Also, keep in mind that one of the goals of your categorization schema should be maintainability. If you come up with new content, it should be immediately obvious and crystal clear which topic it falls under, and if you're creating a new category in the future, it should be immediately obvious whether it's a sub-category of an existing topic, of if it's a new top-level category. If you feel that more top level navigation items are needed, I'll happily go along with that, but they need to be logically distinct, not just re-parented branches. It's better to have more than one categorization schema (as I've suggested before), having a separate navigation device for each, than to create mixed and hybrid schemas. So if you want to ceate a second navigation device indicating the audience, for example, that would work just fine (clicking on the 'developer' item on the second bar could bring you to a page of quick developer links) and allow people to find what they're looking for in the way that they're most comfortable. HTH, Michael Bernstein. From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Wed Dec 20 11:01:36 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DB122CDC3 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:01:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148lhH-0004zZ-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:02:32 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:57:44 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001220105744.I1013@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <200012200711.BAA62748@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012200711.BAA62748@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 11:12:47AM +0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 11:12:47AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: >> On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:38:28AM +0500, Ryan Muldoon wrote: >>> About >>> Press Kit >>> Screenshots >>> FAQ >>> List of Contributors >>> Community >>> IRC info >>> GNOME roadmap >>> Project of the Week >>> Developer Interviews >>> Mailing lists >>> Events >>> News >>> Development >>> Tutorials >>> Whitepapers >>> API Reference >>> CVS >>> Foundation >>> Charter >>> Meeting Minutes >>> Board Members >>> Advisory Board >>> Membership >>> Projects >>> Localization >>> UI Hitsquad >>> Sound >>> Documentation >>> Software >>> Application List >>> Bugzilla >>> Download >> I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" not >> being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick links". Hm. >> Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than my >> proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be >> improved further. > My rationale for your comments: > Press: Press kit seems like it would be "about" GNOME, and I don't know how > many subsections it would have, and if they really need to be quickly accessed > in the general case. Yes, it would be "about" GNOME, and it probably wouldn't have many subsections (contacts, press kit, and some link page, perhaps). My main concern is not from a logical hierarchy point of view, I'm more concerned with people immideately finding what they're looking for. I think members of the press would like to have an immediately visible "Press" link. It *could* be a quick link, granted. > News: What does this really include other than Gnotices? I couldn't come up > with anything, so if it were a category, it would be empty. Also, I would > imagine that the front page will have news as well, anyway Well, Gnotices isn't just one page, it's a whole hierarchy in itself. The front page, the individual stories, and the comments to the stories, the page to submit new stories, not to mention the "More stories by this author" and other meta-functionality. Of the three things I've mentioned here, Gnotices is the one I'm the most sure should be a top level item. > Download: It seems like a single action item, that I do with the category > "software." Download has a download page...what else? Nonstandard GNOME > software would have download links in the Application List, I'd imagine. The main reason for this would be to make it very accessible. However, I suppose Software-Download is dead intuitive, so that would be ok. I agree with this one. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Wed Dec 20 11:16:53 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 451392C906 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:16:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148lw8-00061T-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:17:52 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:13:07 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001220111307.J1013@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <20001219235007.H1013@helixcode.com> <3A40F218.A3A42DD1@lvcm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A40F218.A3A42DD1@lvcm.com>; from webmaven@lvcm.com on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:53:28AM -0800 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:53:28AM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: > Joakim Ziegler wrote: >> On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:50:49PM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: >>> This would leave us with four top level categories of >>> content: >>> * About GNOME >>> * GNOME Community >>> * GNOME Foundation >>> * GNOME Software >>> Which should be all encompassing, and fairly clear as to >>> where to look to find what you want. With only four top >>> level categories, these can be represented by a row of >>> buttons across the top, and second and third level >>> navigation can be accomplished with a right- or left-handed >>> vertical bar. >> While nice in theory, I think this falls into the "too much abstraction" >> trap. Yes, it's a really nicely topical, logical hierarchy, but people expect >> stuff like "Development" to be a top level header. > I disagree. I think it's worth not creating a mixed > noun/verb categorization schema, and you'll actually confuse > people more if you don't excersize retsraint in this regard. > If I'm looking for documentation, do I find it under > 'Software' or under 'Development'? I've never heard of cases where a "mixed noun/verb categorization schema" has ever led to problems. Indeed, the stilted terms or overly broad/narrow ctegories you create by trying to stick to one would likely be a bigger problem. Remember, even extremely usability tested software, such as everything coming out of Apple, has top-level menu items like "File", "Edit", "Tools" and "Window". >> Remember, we're not aiming for the perfect categorization system here (Dewey >> Decimal works really well, but it's hell to navigate for people who don't >> know it), we're aiming for something that's optimal to use. That means as few >> clicks as possible to the stuff that people use the most. > That comparison's a bit unfair. Dewey decimal attempts to > categorize all human knowledge, We're just trying to > categorize all of GNOME. And as far as the 'few clicks as > possible' goes, you've already noted that quick links and > in-line text links can give access to items deep within the > heirarchy. > Also, keep in mind that one of the goals of your > categorization schema should be maintainability. If you come > up with new content, it should be immediately obvious and > crystal clear which topic it falls under, and if you're > creating a new category in the future, it should be > immediately obvious whether it's a sub-category of an > existing topic, of if it's a new top-level category. This isn't going to happen. No matter how perfect your categorization schema, there will always be data that doesn't fit. In your four top level categories, you might have avoided this problem on the top level, because the categories are so vague, but it'll just come back to haunt you on the level below. Given a reasonablys malls et of data, like we have, you're not going o be able to construct a balanced and symmetrical category tree, because you can't specialize enough without ending up with just one or two documents in each category. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From mark@websidestory.com Wed Dec 20 12:00:30 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.websidestory.com (mail1.websidestory.com [208.232.223.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E17BA2DEE1 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:00:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from websidestory.com (pip-1.hitbox.com [209.75.20.72]) by mail1.websidestory.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id eBKH0SE07649 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:00:29 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A40E6D3.F689CDC3@websidestory.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:05:23 -0800 From: Mark Koopman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <20001219235007.H1013@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > Remember, we're not aiming for the perfect categorization system here (Dewey > Decimal works really well, but it's hell to navigate for people who don't > know it), we're aiming for something that's optimal to use. That means as few > clicks as possible to the stuff that people use the most. > what DO people use most? and how do you know? web analytics or gut-feeling? #!/usr/local/bin/perl # Mark Koopman - mark@websidestory.com # Software Engineer # # WebSideStory, Inc # # 10182 Telesis Court # San Diego CA 92121 # 858.546.1182.##.318 # 858.546.0480.fax eval(lc(join('', map ({chr}(q( 49877273766940 80827378843973 32767986693280 69827639463932 39883673434341 ))=~/../g)))); From mark@websidestory.com Wed Dec 20 12:20:31 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.websidestory.com (mail1.websidestory.com [208.232.223.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 339622DEF6 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:20:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from websidestory.com (pip-1.hitbox.com [209.75.20.72]) by mail1.websidestory.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id eBKHKUE08919 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:20:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A40EB82.8927DDD3@websidestory.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:25:22 -0800 From: Mark Koopman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gnome Web List Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Michel Martens wrote: > Couldn't we get access to the logs of www.gnome.org? I think it could be a > good starting point to see what are the visitors requesting. That will give > us the big picture of what is important for the users and will give us a > good idea of how we could arrange the site's navigation structure to meet > their requirements. > > Michel. and for the new site, (this might sound a bit egotistic), i recommend we install a HitBox counter, get.hitbox.com. It's put out by the company i work for, WebSideStory. the counter is trivial to integrate into a site and provides 24-7 real-time stats. hey, i think we have site analysis down pat. it's worth a thought and if anyone gives this more serious consideration, i'll see what i can do as far as having an Account donated to the project. email me if you want to know more about HitBox site analysis #!/usr/local/bin/perl # Mark Koopman - mark@websidestory.com # Software Engineer # # WebSideStory, Inc # # 10182 Telesis Court # San Diego CA 92121 # 858.546.1182.##.318 # 858.546.0480.fax eval(lc(join('', map ({chr}(q( 49877273766940 80827378843973 32767986693280 69827639463932 39883673434341 ))=~/../g)))); From mark@websidestory.com Wed Dec 20 12:29:39 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.websidestory.com (mail1.websidestory.com [208.232.223.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38CED2DEEA for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:29:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from websidestory.com (pip-1.hitbox.com [209.75.20.72]) by mail1.websidestory.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id eBKHTbE09625 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:29:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A40EDA8.3BF462DA@websidestory.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:34:32 -0800 From: Mark Koopman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Site Analysis Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > I haven't looked at statistics for www.gnome.org for a while. There were > (non-public) usage stats for www.gnome.org when it was hosted on the old > server, though, up until a few months ago. > > It's not really necessary to use stats to figure out what people use the > most, or rather, what we'd like them to use most, and what is most useful. > News.gnome.org, for instance, is clearly popular, just judging from the > number of comments each story gets (compared to Slashdot, we're doing really > well, actually). And it should be no surprise to anyone that people want to > find out what GNOME is, and then find out how to get it. > Here's a scenario: We feel popularity of GNOME is increasing, more discussion threads are seen on the site...but are people actually downloading any software? how can you tell? no one person can read all discussion threads to see what's hot/what's not, and then accurately alter a site's navigation/content to stir up some better usability of a site. HitBox offers path-tracking that can give you a good view at how people are clicking around your site. it's an accurate measure of how many pages people are viewing per visit, and if your traffic comes from Bookmarks, or Search Engines. i'm suggesting a HitBox because some discussions have entertained more of a marketing effort, and our HitBox site analysis suits a majority of our marketing efforts within our company. just a suggestion, dont mean to be harping on ya if i sound that way. -- #!/usr/local/bin/perl # Mark Koopman - mark@websidestory.com # Software Engineer # # WebSideStory, Inc # # 10182 Telesis Court # San Diego CA 92121 # 858.546.1182.##.318 # 858.546.0480.fax eval(lc(join('', map ({chr}(q( 49877273766940 80827378843973 32767986693280 69827639463932 39883673434341 ))=~/../g)))); From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Wed Dec 20 12:32:41 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37F642DEEA for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:32:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148n7T-0002o0-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 18:33:39 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:28:53 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: Gnome Web List Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001220122853.O1013@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: Gnome Web List References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> <3A40EB82.8927DDD3@websidestory.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A40EB82.8927DDD3@websidestory.com>; from mark@websidestory.com on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:25:22AM -0800 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:25:22AM -0800, Mark Koopman wrote: > Michel Martens wrote: >> Couldn't we get access to the logs of www.gnome.org? I think it could be a >> good starting point to see what are the visitors requesting. That will give >> us the big picture of what is important for the users and will give us a >> good idea of how we could arrange the site's navigation structure to meet >> their requirements. > and for the new site, (this might sound a bit egotistic), i recommend we > install a HitBox counter, get.hitbox.com. It's put out by the company > i > work for, WebSideStory. the counter is trivial to integrate into a site > and provides 24-7 real-time stats. hey, i think we have site analysis > down > pat. it's worth a thought and if anyone gives this more serious > consideration, > i'll see what i can do as far as having an Account donated to the > project. For the GNOME site to use a proprietary system like this, even if the license was "donated" to the site, would be completely and utterly unthinkable. Free your software, then we can talk. I can't see how this is much more useful than webalizer anyway. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From thom@planetarytramp.net Wed Dec 20 12:38:19 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from proxy.jakinternet.co.uk (proxy.jakinternet.co.uk [212.187.250.66]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A35ED2BD56 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:38:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.jakinternet.co.uk (smtp.jakinternet.co.uk [212.187.250.72]) by proxy.jakinternet.co.uk (Postfix) with SMTP id CA814A7700 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 18:34:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from emancipation.planetarytramp.net ([194.88.79.192]) by smtp.jakinternet.co.uk ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:37:59 -0000 Received: by emancipation.planetarytramp.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 215A11AE5E; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:37:55 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:37:55 +0000 From: Thom May To: Michel Martens , gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001220173754.E24093@emancipation> Mail-Followup-To: Michel Martens , gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="wtjvnLv0o8UUzur2" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield>; from michel@expocentro.com on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:19:28AM -0300 X-Operating-System: Linux/2.2.17-ide (i686) Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work --wtjvnLv0o8UUzur2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Michel, Owen posted a link to the logs for most of the gnome machines; this is a link to the mail archive of that post: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-web-list/2000-November/msg00087.html HTH -Thom * Michel Martens (michel@expocentro.com) wrote : > >=20 > Couldn't we get access to the logs of www.gnome.org? I think it could be a > good starting point to see what are the visitors requesting. That will gi= ve > us the big picture of what is important for the users and will give us a > good idea of how we could arrange the site's navigation structure to meet > their requirements. >=20 > Michel. >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > gnome-web-list mailing list > gnome-web-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-web-list --wtjvnLv0o8UUzur2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjpA7nIACgkQs10SPRMEYVXwaQCfRLQKq4tVTqlz9HpIDPDjSZMk ZvAAnjxukWUHFXQ/Ae0/8TDBgpqUf895 =97Vx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --wtjvnLv0o8UUzur2-- From mark@websidestory.com Wed Dec 20 12:55:21 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.websidestory.com (mail1.websidestory.com [208.232.223.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F09C2DF2F for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:55:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from websidestory.com (pip-1.hitbox.com [209.75.20.72]) by mail1.websidestory.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id eBKHtKE11462 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:55:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A40F3AF.4F722EFB@websidestory.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:00:15 -0800 From: Mark Koopman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> <20001220173754.E24093@emancipation> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Thom May wrote: > > Hi Michel, > Owen posted a link to the logs for most of the gnome machines; > this is a link to the mail archive of that post: > > http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-web-list/2000-November/msg00087.html > Logs show this: Program started at Wed-20-Dec-2000 00:00. Analysed requests from Tue-31-Dec-1996 19:15 to Wed-20-Dec-2000 00:00 (1449.2 days). Directory Report #reqs: pages: directory --------: -------: --------- 71622830: 190: /images/ 2102723: 1348900: [root directory] 1324279: 604703: /applist/ 228694: 120716: /gnome-office/ 200024: 196679: /start/ 95088: 95087: /faqs/ 76820: 62083: /projects/ 51062: 51062: /resources/ 33919: 33919: /learn/ 31242: 31242: /intro/ 28839: 355: http:// 27877: 13600: /todo/ 15071: 12501: /~michael/ 7892: 7103: /~drc/ 7207: 7204: /i18n/ 5723: 5016: /developerinterviews/ 5158: 4907: /cgi-bin/ 4200: 4200: /developers/ 3037: 2474: /~ole/ 1111: 698: /~sopwith/ 890: 161: /~cgabriel/ 784: 540: /~chrisime/ 551: 1: [no directory] 220: 146: /~msw/ 180: 163: /ftp/ http://??? what is that? only 180 ftp requests....do we feel that's an accurate number of ftp requests made in approx 4 years? i dont think so, or else we're looking at the wrong server logs. HitBox has the benefit of being server-independent and one Account code could analyze any number of servers. #!/usr/local/bin/perl # Mark Koopman - mark@websidestory.com # Software Engineer # # WebSideStory, Inc # # 10182 Telesis Court # San Diego CA 92121 # 858.546.1182.##.318 # 858.546.0480.fax eval(lc(join('', map ({chr}(q( 49877273766940 80827378843973 32767986693280 69827639463932 39883673434341 ))=~/../g)))); From gleblanc@cu-portland.edu Wed Dec 20 12:59:51 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from email.cu-portland.edu (unknown [207.149.56.67]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE6AB2DF03 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:59:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from grego1.cu-portland.edu (207.149.56.153 [207.149.56.153]) by email.cu-portland.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id XNSRM085; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:59:49 -0800 Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal From: Gregory Leblanc To: Gnome Web List In-Reply-To: <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Evolution 0.8 (Developer Preview) Date: 20 Dec 2000 10:00:17 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20001220175950.DE6AB2DF03@mail.gnome.org> Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On 20 Dec 2000 09:19:28 -0300, Michel Martens wrote: > > On 2000.12.20 01:12:48 -0300 Matt McClanahan wrote: > > > > > > I like this. I'm a little worried about "Press", "News" and "Download" > > not > > > being top-level, but I guess they're prime candidates for "quick > > links". Hm. > > > Not bad at all. I have a better gut feeling about this structure than > > my > > > proposal, but I'd like to think about it a little to see if it can be > > > improved further. > > > > I'd tend to agree on the News, but I've never seen downloads as being a > > 'primary' link off of the landing page. I suppose access logs could > > easilly prove me wrong, but putting it under software makes sense to me. > > Wouldn't there be a brief news summary on the landing page anyway, which > > could then provide the direct link to the news page? > > > > Couldn't we get access to the logs of www.gnome.org? I think it could be a > good starting point to see what are the visitors requesting. That will give > us the big picture of what is important for the users and will give us a > good idea of how we could arrange the site's navigation structure to meet > their requirements. Hey, don't you read the list? :) Owen posted this stuff a while ago, you can get his message at http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-web-list/2000-November/msg00087.html Greg From thom@planetarytramp.net Wed Dec 20 13:18:50 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from proxy.jakinternet.co.uk (proxy.jakinternet.co.uk [212.187.250.66]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B98262CB76 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:18:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.jakinternet.co.uk (smtp.jakinternet.co.uk [212.187.250.72]) by proxy.jakinternet.co.uk (Postfix) with SMTP id BFF8CA7934 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:15:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from emancipation.planetarytramp.net ([194.88.79.192]) by smtp.jakinternet.co.uk ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 18:17:59 -0000 Received: by emancipation.planetarytramp.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 259751AE5E; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 18:17:56 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 18:17:56 +0000 From: Thom May To: Mark Koopman , gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001220181755.F24093@emancipation> Mail-Followup-To: Mark Koopman , gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> <20001220173754.E24093@emancipation> <3A40F3AF.4F722EFB@websidestory.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="w2JjAQZceEVGylhD" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3A40F3AF.4F722EFB@websidestory.com>; from mark@websidestory.com on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 10:00:15AM -0800 X-Operating-System: Linux/2.2.17-ide (i686) Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work --w2JjAQZceEVGylhD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * Mark Koopman (mark@websidestory.com) wrote : (loads of advertising) Mark,=20 I appreciate your enthusiasm for you product, and can understand it! I know i get excited when th company I work for releases a great product. However, it is _not_ appropriate to use a list in this manner for advertising a product, nor is it possible for Gnome to _ever_ use a proprietary product such as yours, until or unless it is released with a DFSG compatible license (I'm using DFSG as it's the best generic OSS definition, I think, see http://www.debian.org/social_contract ) cheers -Thom --w2JjAQZceEVGylhD Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjpA99MACgkQs10SPRMEYVVkowCeIb5S6hUj0BxM8N0kycGghIsz RrEAnA4CWb9o6L0q498U12MYhGKZL297 =QhdJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --w2JjAQZceEVGylhD-- From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Wed Dec 20 13:23:42 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52DA42DF40 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:20:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148ns1-0002WZ-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:21:46 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:16:57 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001220131657.Q1013@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> <20001220173754.E24093@emancipation> <3A40F3AF.4F722EFB@websidestory.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A40F3AF.4F722EFB@websidestory.com>; from mark@websidestory.com on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 10:00:15AM -0800 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 10:00:15AM -0800, Mark Koopman wrote: > Thom May wrote: > http://??? what is that? Most likely a malformed request of some sort. > only 180 ftp requests....do we feel that's an accurate number > of ftp requests made in approx 4 years? i dont think so, or else > we're looking at the wrong server logs. Since these are the HTTP server logs, I'm not surprised. > HitBox has the benefit > of being server-independent and one Account code could analyze > any number of servers. Please stop shamelessly promoting your proprietary software on this list. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From mark@websidestory.com Wed Dec 20 13:25:00 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail1.websidestory.com (mail1.websidestory.com [208.232.223.4]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC3F02BB09 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:24:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from websidestory.com (pip-1.hitbox.com [209.75.20.72]) by mail1.websidestory.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id eBKIOxE13824 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:24:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A40FAA2.138CDE25@websidestory.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:29:54 -0800 From: Mark Koopman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> <20001220173754.E24093@emancipation> <3A40F3AF.4F722EFB@websidestory.com> <20001220181755.F24093@emancipation> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Thom May wrote: > > * Mark Koopman (mark@websidestory.com) wrote : > (loads of advertising) > Mark, > I appreciate your enthusiasm for you product, and can understand > it! I know i get excited when th company I work for releases a > great product. > However, it is _not_ appropriate to use a list in this manner > for advertising a product, nor is it possible for Gnome to > _ever_ use a proprietary product such as yours, until or unless > it is released with a DFSG compatible license (I'm using DFSG as it's > the best generic OSS definition, I think, see > http://www.debian.org/social_contract ) > cheers > -Thom > that's fine, i understand. i was offering a free version of the product, but that wasn't so clearly stated by myself from the beginning. keep on truckin' -- #!/usr/local/bin/perl # Mark Koopman - mark@websidestory.com # Software Engineer # # WebSideStory, Inc # # 10182 Telesis Court # San Diego CA 92121 # 858.546.1182.##.318 # 858.546.0480.fax eval(lc(join('', map ({chr}(q( 49877273766940 80827378843973 32767986693280 69827639463932 39883673434341 ))=~/../g)))); From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Wed Dec 20 13:44:36 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 565952BB01 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:44:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148oF5-0004bR-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:45:35 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:40:48 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001220134048.T1013@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <20001220091928.A12772@milhouse.springfield> <20001220173754.E24093@emancipation> <3A40F3AF.4F722EFB@websidestory.com> <20001220181755.F24093@emancipation> <3A40FAA2.138CDE25@websidestory.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A40FAA2.138CDE25@websidestory.com>; from mark@websidestory.com on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 10:29:54AM -0800 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 10:29:54AM -0800, Mark Koopman wrote: > Thom May wrote: >> * Mark Koopman (mark@websidestory.com) wrote : >> (loads of advertising) >> Mark, >> I appreciate your enthusiasm for you product, and can understand >> it! I know i get excited when th company I work for releases a >> great product. >> However, it is _not_ appropriate to use a list in this manner >> for advertising a product, nor is it possible for Gnome to >> _ever_ use a proprietary product such as yours, until or unless >> it is released with a DFSG compatible license (I'm using DFSG as it's >> the best generic OSS definition, I think, see >> http://www.debian.org/social_contract ) >> cheers > that's fine, i understand. i was offering a free version of the > product, but that wasn't so clearly stated by myself from the beginning. Free software is not a matter of price, but of freedom. That is, you would have to release source under a DFSG-compliant license for it to be considered free software. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From digitect@mindspring.com Wed Dec 20 20:34:09 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from hall.mail.mindspring.net (hall.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.60]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 589E72D26E for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 20:34:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf2sp.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.139.153]) by hall.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA22238 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 20:34:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <002e01c06aee$1d6828a0$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: Subject: Fw: Really Quick Mockup Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 20:34:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Oops. Meant to send this to the list, too. From: "digitect" To: "Ryan Muldoon" Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 7:40 AM Subject: Re: Really Quick Mockup Some general comments about Ryan's structure and the discussion in general... ____________________________________________________________ Ryan Muldoon's structure A B O U T ScreenShots Press Kit FAQ Contributors C O M M U N I T Y Support GNOME Roadmap Project of the Week Developer Interviews Mailing Lists Events News D E V E L O P M E N T Tutorials Whitepapers API Reference CVS F O U N D A T I O N Charter Meeting Minutes Board Members Adisory Board Membership P R O J E C T S Localization Documentation UI Improvement Icons Sound S O F T W A R E Application List Bugzilla Download ____________________________________________________________ 1. "Download" is a snare. It means two different things. For the user, Download means "Get It". For the developer, Download means "Here's a new version of an app you can try". We need to have some sort of "Get the Whole Core" place for users with easy instructions and HowTos for newbies. I think our current Download section is much more suited to the developer. I definitely agree with the current direction we're headed for a clear outline structure with quick link/headline shortcuts into the structure from the front page or other. The entire content needs to be organized in a clear structural format, but we'll always need to jump across it. (After all, this is why Al Gore invented they hyperlink.) So in regards to my Download dilema above, maybe we're just talking about creating a quick link to a new user section of downloads from the front page. 2. To me, in the structure above, "Foundation" seems to have a disproportionate share of visual realestate. I think I'd prefer to see it as a single jump from Community or About. I realize that they're important, but I'm guessing that very few visitors will want to use this section. The few important ones that do, can easily be transported to a whole corporate section of the site. (I'd also suggest making a History section so that folks can read up on the history of GNOME and be pointed to a history of GNU, and possibly Linux/BSD/Unix.) Otherwise this is a great structure and I vote we stop suggesting new ones and just develop this one. (Not that development alone won't turn it on its head.) I think we need to develop this by now trying to describe the third tier of areas and really try to be exhaustive with all the content we know about (like project for example). I'm sure we're going to find at least one major adjustment that needs to be made. (And BTW, I might suggest that we do this in HTML, or at least post a "latest copy" so that we don't all get confused.) Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From webmaven@lvcm.com Wed Dec 20 22:22:22 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams4.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.78]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 435312C10B for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:22:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.231.69]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:23:47 -0800 Message-ID: <3A4195CC.80CF85C@lvcm.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:31:56 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <20001219235007.H1013@helixcode.com> <3A40F218.A3A42DD1@lvcm.com> <20001220111307.J1013@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:53:28AM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: > > Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > > > > > While nice in theory, I think this falls into the "too much abstraction" > > > trap. Yes, it's a really nicely topical, logical hierarchy, but people expect > > > stuff like "Development" to be a top level header. > > > > I disagree. I think it's worth not creating a mixed > > noun/verb categorization schema, and you'll actually confuse > > people more if you don't excersize retsraint in this regard. > > If I'm looking for documentation, do I find it under > > 'Software' or under 'Development'? > > I've never heard of cases where a "mixed noun/verb categorization schema" has > ever led to problems. Indeed, the stilted terms or overly broad/narrow > ctegories you create by trying to stick to one would likely be a bigger > problem. Sorry, noun/verb is my own terminology. Topical vs. functional, or subject-oriented vs. task-oriented would be the more usual way to describe it, I suppose. Have you read 'Information Architecture for the World Wide Web' by Louis Rosenfeld and Peter Moreville? Chapter 3 deals with this specific issue of organization schemas, and the point is made that hybrid schemas are more confusing because it's impossible to form a mental model of the site. The book is published by O'Reilly, and I can reccomend it unconditionally to anyone who designs websites. Here is are two small (relevant) quotes: "The power of a pure organization scheme derives from it's ability to suggest a simple mental model for users to quickly understand. Users easily recognize an audience specific or topical organization. However, when you start blending elements of multiple schemes, confusion is almost guaranteed." "Hybrid Schemas are common on the web. This happens because it is often dificult to agree upon any one scheme to present on the main page, so people throw the elements of multiple schemes together in a confusing mix. There is a better alternative. In cases where multiple schemes must be presented on one page, you should communicate to designers the importance of retaining the integrity of each scheme. As long as the schemes are presented separately on the page, they retain the powerful ability to suggest a mental model for users." > Remember, even extremely usability tested software, such as > everything coming out of Apple, has top-level menu items like "File", "Edit", > "Tools" and "Window". You've made the point yourself that the website shouldn't emulate the desktop, but I'll still point out that websites are primarily comprised of content, whereas desktop applications are primarily tools for content creation and manipulation. You are correct that mixing schemas in menus are not much of a usability problem *once you've learned the platforms' conventions*. Users will not be willing to spend as much time learning the structure of your site as they have been willing to learn the conventions of their chosen desktop environment. > > Also, keep in mind that one of the goals of your > > categorization schema should be maintainability. If you come > > up with new content, it should be immediately obvious and > > crystal clear which topic it falls under, and if you're > > creating a new category in the future, it should be > > immediately obvious whether it's a sub-category of an > > existing topic, of if it's a new top-level category. > > This isn't going to happen. No matter how perfect your categorization schema, > there will always be data that doesn't fit. Of course. But it will be immediately obvious when it doesn't fit and you must simply decide whether it requires a new sub-category or a new top level category, which is vastly preferable to a situation arising where you're unsure where to place a new document. If I want to create downloadable printable manuals, do I put a download category in 'Documentation', or a printable documentation category in 'Download'? If you have a topical heirarchy it's obvious that you need a 'Download this document in a printable format' task oriented link from each relevant page, so the problem never arises. Now, if you want to have a separate navigation device on the front page that contains links to the most common tasks, the problem is solved. you can dedicate screen real-estate to those tasks without polluting a topical heirarchy with task oriented top level items. So you can have a task-oriented quick link to 'download all documentation in a printable format' that is not part of the main navigation. With a completely database-driven site architecture, maintaining multiple site navigation schemas is not any more of a problem than maintaining one. All you have to do is make sure that content is tagged with the appropriate meta-information when it is added, according to whatever (and however many) schemas you want, and navigation options can be dynamically generated based on this information. > In your four top level > categories, you might have avoided this problem on the top level, because the > categories are so vague, but it'll just come back to haunt you on the level > below. I don't think that the categories I've defined are vague. They are broad, true, but they are also mutually exclusive. On the contrary, vagueness comes from having categories that overlap to a significant degree, which is exactly what I'm trying to avoid. Now, it is true that more than four top level categories are desireable, and I'm certainly open to suggestions of content that does not fit into the divisions that I've proposed, But given the content that's been suggested so far, I don't see where any additional top level *topical* categories are possible. > Given a reasonablys malls et of data, like we have, you're not going o > be able to construct a balanced and symmetrical category tree, because you > can't specialize enough without ending up with just one or two documents in > each category. The sub-categorization does not have to be as deep in all places on the tree. If a site section does not have enough content to warant further sub-categorization, then it doesn't, and shouldn't be. Cheers, Michael Bernstein. From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Wed Dec 20 22:57:53 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D366A2BB13 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:57:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 148wsa-0003fS-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 04:58:57 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:54:09 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Message-ID: <20001220225409.A1013@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <20001219235007.H1013@helixcode.com> <3A40F218.A3A42DD1@lvcm.com> <20001220111307.J1013@helixcode.com> <3A4195CC.80CF85C@lvcm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A4195CC.80CF85C@lvcm.com>; from webmaven@lvcm.com on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:31:56PM -0800 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:31:56PM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: This is getting very, very long, so I'm going to just cut and summarize/answer. Basically, there are two separate issues here, which I think we're confusing a little. First of all, there's the discussion of whether or not we should use a hybrid task/category scheme, or a pure scheme. Secondly, there's the issue of four top-level categories being too few, in my opinion. Now, for the hybrid versus pure issue, sure, it's fine to have a pure schema, if it's possible, and doesn't deform an otherwise logical tree. For instance, you've created four top level categories which seem to be able to hold all the information we have on the site. But is it possible to continue with a pure schema on the second level of navigation? How deep will the tree be with this method versus a hybrid schema? How wide? I'd argue that particularly since hybrid schemas are so common on the web, people are used to them, and don't have to expel much mental effort to figure them out. As a thought experiment, take your four categories and turn two of them into tasks (pretty easy, just put a verb in front of the noun, like "Learn about the GNOME Foundation"). It's not much harder to figure out (ignoring that the label is long and unwieldy). It seems to me that the usability difference is vastly larger from adjusting the boundaries between categories than it is when adjusting between hybrid and non-hybrid schemas. As for your four categories, yes, they're mutually exclusive, and yes, they cover all the topics. But the fact that there are only four of them suggests to me that they would need rethinking and/or splitting up. As they are, they'd result in at least three more levels of navigation under them, since they're so broad and abstract. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Fri Dec 22 03:13:41 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from qonos.softcomca.com (qonos.softcomca.com [168.144.1.157]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB6382CF0C for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 03:13:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from qonos.softcomca.com [168.144.1.157] by qonos.softcomca.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.00) id AD1831250054; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 03:13:12 -0500 X-Originating-IP: 140.186.103.95 X-URL: http://www.mail2web.com/ Subject: Re: Re: Really Quick Mockup From: "rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu" Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 03:13:12 -0500 To: "joakim@helixcode.com" Cc: "gnome-web-list@gnome.org" Reply-To: rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Mailer: JMail 3.7.0 by Dimac (www.dimac.net) Message-Id: <200012220313660.SM00336@qonos.softcomca.com> Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work >Looks nice. I have a couple of problems with the colors. Basically, >everything looks like I turned brightness on my monitor up a few notches. >Everything's very low contrast and hard to read (especially the body text). The body text is definitely one of the things I wanted to think about. I like the charcoal, and find it to be a bit "sof= ter," but I don't know how usable it is. I'd have no problem switching to black if that is what we agree on. But I do t= hink that the charcoal is nicer. >I'd like to see some darker colors thrown into the mix, this is a >bit "wimpy" for my taste. I definitely want to use some stronger colors. I tried to initially, but you can't use dark colors for the background of= dark text. I have an aversion to white text, so I tried to make things work nicely with black text. My thinking was th= at the highlight colors would be the lighter shade of the main color for the particular sections. That would give us the= darker colors. Another way is to use a (gnomeish) icon for the section headers. It would make the page a little more i= nteresting, I think. I like how digitect tried to use icons initially. I don't think we should have one for every menu = item, but for sections, it might be nice. That does, of course, put greater requirements on the artists of the group. I= know I can't make nice icons, so I didn't want to push it as a requirement. But if someone is able to do them, it would= look good. --Ryan ------------------------------------------------------------------- This message has been posted from Mail2Web http://www.mail2web.com/ Web Hosting for $9.95 per month! Visit: http://www.yourhosting.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------- From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Fri Dec 22 03:23:38 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from m2w037 (M2W037.mail2web.com [168.144.108.37]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3909D2DB6A for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 03:23:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from m2w037 [168.144.108.37] by m2w037 with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.00) id AF961B9A013A; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 03:23:50 -0500 X-Originating-IP: 140.186.103.95 X-URL: http://www.mail2web.com/ Subject: Re: Re: Navigation Proposal From: "rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu" Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 03:23:50 -0500 To: "joakim@helixcode.com" , "gnome-web-list@gnome.org" Reply-To: rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Mailer: JMail 3.7.0 by Dimac (www.dimac.net) Message-Id: <200012220323626.SM01212@m2w037> Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work I'm just going to add my (Agreeing) comments below.... On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:31:56PM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: >This is getting very, very long, so I'm going to just cut and >summarize/answer. >Basically, there are two separate issues here, which I think we're >confusing >a little. First of all, there's the discussion of whether or not we should >use a hybrid task/category scheme, or a pure scheme. Secondly, there's the >issue of four top-level categories being too few, in my opinion. >Now, for the hybrid versus pure issue, sure, it's fine to have a pure >schema, >if it's possible, and doesn't deform an otherwise logical tree. For >instance, >you've created four top level categories which seem to be able to hold all >the information we have on the site. But is it possible to continue with a >pure schema on the second level of navigation? How deep will the tree be >with this method versus a hybrid schema? How w= ide? I agree. The doubt that a completely pure navigation structure is possible all the way through the site. And if it is, i= t will probably be at the cost of usability, which is what you're wanting to preserve. >I'd argue that particularly since hybrid schemas are so common on the web, >people are used to them, and don't have to expel much mental effort to >figure >them out. As a thought experiment, take your four categories and turn two >of >them into tasks (pretty easy, just put a verb in front of the noun, like >"Learn about the GNOME Foundation"). It's not much harder to figure out >(ignoring that the label is long and unwieldy). It seems to me that the >usability difference is vastly larger from adjusting the boundaries between >categories than it is when adjusting between hybrid and non-hybrid schemas. I agree. It was stated that hybrid schemes are common.....so people are already used to it. >As for your four categories, yes, they're mutually exclusive, and yes, they >cover all the topics. But the fact that there are only four of them >suggests >to me that they would need rethinking and/or splitting up. As they are, >they'd result in at least three more levels of navigation under them, since >they're so broad and abstract. This is my main gripe - 4 is definitely too few. 10 was too much. I wouldn't go for more than 7, but I think that my 6 = sections work pretty well. I'm sure that they can be refined more, but I think that it should be what we're working with= (at least for the sake of getting something done). 4 sections will require too many extra clicks to get at actual conte= nt. We shouldn't need more than 2 or 3 clicks to get to everything. Too few sections also means more information goes i= n each section. That ends up being a problem of information overload - we want to provide bite-sized pieces, not slabs o= f information. It is more usable to have a moderate number of sections, each of which only have a moderate number of sub= sections. If you do in either direction, you are going to end up with too much information somewhere. We should avoid t= hat. --Ryan ------------------------------------------------------------------- This message has been posted from Mail2Web http://www.mail2web.com/ Web Hosting for $9.95 per month! Visit: http://www.yourhosting.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------- From ziegler@bzzzt.fix.no Fri Dec 22 12:29:33 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from bzzzt.fix.no (bzzzt.fix.no [212.71.72.20]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDB112BDDC for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 12:29:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziegler by bzzzt.fix.no with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 149W0Z-0000bE-00 for gnome-web-list@gnome.org; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 18:29:32 +0100 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 12:25:58 -0600 From: Joakim Ziegler To: "gnome-web-list@gnome.org" Subject: Re: Re: Really Quick Mockup Message-ID: <20001222122558.C9263@helixcode.com> Mail-Followup-To: "gnome-web-list@gnome.org" References: <200012220313660.SM00336@qonos.softcomca.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012220313660.SM00336@qonos.softcomca.com>; from rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu on Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 03:13:12AM -0500 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work On Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 03:13:12AM -0500, rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu wrote: >> Looks nice. I have a couple of problems with the colors. Basically, >> everything looks like I turned brightness on my monitor up a few notches. >> Everything's very low contrast and hard to read (especially the body text). > The body text is definitely one of the things I wanted to think about. I > like the charcoal, and find it to be a bit "softer," but I don't know how > usable it is. I'd have no problem switching to black if that is what we > agree on. But I do think that the charcoal is nicer. I think it would have to be either black or quite a few shades darker. IT does indeed look "softer", but that's also part of the problem. >> I'd like to see some darker colors thrown into the mix, this is a bit >> "wimpy" for my taste. > I definitely want to use some stronger colors. I tried to initially, but > you can't use dark colors for the background of dark text. I have an > aversion to white text, so I tried to make things work nicely with black > text. My thinking was that the highlight colors would be the lighter shade > of the main color for the particular sections. That would give us the darker > colors. Another way is to use a (gnomeish) icon for the section headers. It > would make the page a little more interesting, I think. I like how digitect > tried to use icons initially. I don't think we should have one for every > menu item, but for sections, it might be nice. That does, of course, put > greater requirements on the artists of the group. I know I can't make nice > icons, so I didn't want to push it as a requirement. But if someone is able > to do them, it would look good. Strong colors should probably come into play in edges, accents, icons, and so on. I'm still uncertain about requiring icons, just because of the obstacle it presents when you need to add something. -- Joakim Ziegler - Helix Code web monkey - joakim@helixcode.com - Radagast@IRC FIX sysop - free software coder - FIDEL & Conglomerate developer http://www.avmaria.com/ - http://www.helixcode.com/ From mandreiana@rdsnet.ro Sat Dec 23 02:50:06 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from mail.rdsnet.ro (mail.rdsnet.ro [193.231.236.16]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B3B4A2BD9F for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 02:49:16 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 8172 invoked from network); 23 Dec 2000 07:51:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO rdsnet.ro) (212.93.133.179) by mail.rdsnet.ro with SMTP; 23 Dec 2000 07:51:17 -0000 Message-ID: <3A4458FB.6A1853A0@rdsnet.ro> Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 09:49:15 +0200 From: Marius Andreiana Organization: Web Development Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ryan Muldoon Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Really Quick Mockup References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <200012200715.BAA171370@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <200012200733.BAA57916@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Shouldn't the navigation links be top level ? I think this was discussed and agreed that they eat to much space on the left side. Use menus like http://www.gnome.org/todo/index.php3 (left margin too big) -- Marius Andreiana From rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu Sat Dec 23 03:03:07 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from m2w021.mail2web.com (M2W021.mail2web.com [168.144.108.21]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 652902BAC2 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 03:03:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from m2w021.mail2web.com [168.144.108.21] by m2w021.mail2web.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.00) id AC227A33012C; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 03:02:42 -0500 X-Originating-IP: 140.186.102.236 X-URL: http://www.mail2web.com/ Subject: Re: Re: Re: Really Quick Mockup From: "rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu" Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 03:02:42 -0500 To: "joakim@helixcode.com" , "gnome-web-list@gnome.org" Reply-To: rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Mailer: JMail 3.7.0 by Dimac (www.dimac.net) Message-Id: <200012230302331.SM00269@m2w021.mail2web.com> Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Original Message: ----------------- From: Joakim Ziegler joakim@helixcode.com Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 12:25:58 -0600 Subject: Re: Re: Really Quick Mockup On Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 03:13:12AM -0500, rpmuldoon@students.wisc.edu wrote: >> Looks nice. I have a couple of problems with the colors. Basically, >> everything looks like I turned brightness on my monitor up a few notches. >> Everything's very low contrast and hard to read (especially the body text). > The body text is definitely one of the things I wanted to think about. I > like the charcoal, and find it to be a bit "softer," but I don't know how > usable it is. I'd have no problem switching to black if that is what we > agree on. But I do think that the charcoal is nicer. I think it would have to be either black or quite a few shades darker. IT does indeed look "softer", but that's also part of the problem. ok.......I can concede that if I must. ;-) >> I'd like to see some darker colors thrown into the mix, this is a bit >> "wimpy" for my taste. > I definitely want to use some stronger colors. I tried to initially, but > you can't use dark colors for the background of dark text. I have an > aversion to white text, so I tried to make things work nicely with black > text. My thinking was that the highlight colors would be the lighter shade > of the main color for the particular sections. That would give us the darker > colors. Another way is to use a (gnomeish) icon for the section headers. It > would make the page a little more interesting, I think. I like how digitect > tried to use icons initially. I don't think we should have one for every > menu item, but for sections, it might be nice. That does, of course, put > greater requirements on the artists of the group. I know I can't make nice > icons, so I didn't want to push it as a requirement. But if someone is able > to do them, it would look good. Strong colors should probably come into play in edges, accents, icons, and so on. I'm still uncertain about requiring icons, just because of the obstacle it presents when you need to add something. I agree that those places are where strong colors would come in......so is there something that we are disagreeing o= n here? I don't think so, but maybe I'm not seeing it. I agree that icons add extra work, but doing them for sections l= essens the burden, because I doubt that we'll be changing sections that much. And we need some kind of art, to make the = pages not feel overly text-heavy (like my current mockup). I won't have time to make any changes on my stuff until after Christmas....if someone else wants to, feel free to. After= the 25th I should have some time though. --Ryan ------------------------------------------------------------------- This message has been posted from Mail2Web http://www.mail2web.com/ Web Hosting for $9.95 per month! Visit: http://www.yourhosting.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------- From webmaven@lvcm.com Sat Dec 23 16:09:22 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from lvcablemodem.com (hams2.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.76]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFC572BD85 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 16:09:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com ([24.234.231.69]) by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.517.51); Sat, 23 Dec 2000 13:09:12 -0800 Message-ID: <3A45331D.CE46004C@lvcm.com> Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 15:19:57 -0800 From: Michael Bernstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joakim Ziegler Cc: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <20001219235007.H1013@helixcode.com> <3A40F218.A3A42DD1@lvcm.com> <20001220111307.J1013@helixcode.com> <3A4195CC.80CF85C@lvcm.com> <20001220225409.A1013@helixcode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Sorry it's taken me so long to reply, last minute holiday preparations can be a pain. Joakim Ziegler wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:31:56PM -0800, Michael Bernstein wrote: > > Basically, there are two separate issues here, which I think we're confusing > a little. First of all, there's the discussion of whether or not we should > use a hybrid task/category scheme, or a pure scheme. Secondly, there's the > issue of four top-level categories being too few, in my opinion. I'll address them separately from now on, too. > Now, for the hybrid versus pure issue, sure, it's fine to have a pure schema, > if it's possible, and doesn't deform an otherwise logical tree. For instance, > you've created four top level categories which seem to be able to hold all > the information we have on the site. But is it possible to continue with a > pure schema on the second level of navigation? How deep will the tree be with > this method versus a hybrid schema? How wide? Of course it's possible. All content has a subject/topic. I'll post a follow up message with a complete tree as an illustration. > I'd argue that particularly since hybrid schemas are so common on the web, > people are used to them, and don't have to expel much mental effort to figure > them out. What you're really saying is that people don't bother to try and figure out an overall site structure, because on most sites they can't anyway. I don't disagree with *that*, but just because everyone is doing it wrong, does not mean we have to follow suit. If following the guideline of preferring a pure scheme results in an improved user experience, then I say we do so. If we wanted to accept the status-quo, we wouldn't be interested in GNOME in the first place. > As a thought experiment, take your four categories and turn two of > them into tasks (pretty easy, just put a verb in front of the noun, like > "Learn about the GNOME Foundation"). It's not much harder to figure out > (ignoring that the label is long and unwieldy). It seems to me that the > usability difference is vastly larger from adjusting the boundaries between > categories than it is when adjusting between hybrid and non-hybrid schemas. Mmm, I think you're confusing the issue here. What you've created is a noun/verb pair, which is a very specific combination. To make it an equivalent to the more inclusive 'Development' task category, you would have to label it 'Learn', after which the question naturally arises "learn about what?", which is answered in appropriate sub-categories, all of which then overlap in content with existing topical categories again (Learn about GNOME, Learn about the GNOME Foundation, etc.). The 'Development' category conceptually contains many different things that can be developed. You see, the problem with a hybrid schema is the fact that the mental model they suggest has classifications that conceptually overlap to a very significant degree, so that a user will likely guess wrong when trying to find something, thus forcing them to either learn the whole site map, spend extra time hunting around, or just break down and use the search function. With a 'pure' scheme, all the user must learn (or intuit) is the 'principle' behind the categories, and they will more likely be correct when they try to guess where something is. In the case of the current proposal, the 'Development' category and the 'Software' category conceptually overlap to a prohibitive extent, so decisions as to what to include in each are almost arbitrary, making it dificult to predict (or guess) what will be found in each. This leads to users clicking around more before they find what they're looking for, exactly the oposite effect from your intention to lead users to their goal using fewer clicks. If I'm looking for software documentation, will I automatically look for it in the 'Development' category? > As for your four categories, yes, they're mutually exclusive, and yes, they > cover all the topics. But the fact that there are only four of them suggests > to me that they would need rethinking and/or splitting up. As they are, > they'd result in at least three more levels of navigation under them, since > they're so broad and abstract. I'm all for refactoring the four categories I came up with into more (say six or seven) as long as it can be done within a topical categorization scheme. I'll see what I can come up with, and post a follow-up. I'm going to try and explain my position a little more clearly here, since it seems that part of my solution to your concerns for 'fewer clicks' has gone unnoticed. I apologize in advance for the length of my explanation. 'Navigation' in the context of website design has been conflated to include two concepts: Organization of content/functionality, and Wayfinding. The advantages of picking a pure schema (by subject, by audience, by task, etc) are chiefly on the organization side, making it simpler to decide what goes where, making it easier to categorize future additions to the content, and making it easier to decide to add new categories or sub-categories when appropriate. In other words, it increases maintainability by consistently factoring the content. It also has advantages with regard to wayfinding, in that it makes it easier for users to predict what area of the site will contain what they're looking for, once they've internalized the organization schema, and without forcing them to internalize the entire actual site structure. In other words, it makes a 'site-map' unneccessary. It sometimes *may* also have a wayfinding disadvantage, when more clicks are required to reach certain content. But wayfinding problems have many other solutions, while this is really the only way to improve organization. Here is one possible wayfinding solution that I've suggested before: Create an additional navigation device on the front page of the site, separate and distinct from the main navigation, that lists common tasks and leads to the correct section of the site. We can also create similar 'audience oriented' navigation to provide shortcuts for the press, developers, end-users, etc. The thing to keep in mind is that these additional wayfinding navbars do not compromise the *organization* of the sites content, which is still according to a pure topic oriented schema. I usually implement a secondary schema (as an example I'll use an Audience schema) by creating an 'Audience' directory that contains audience specific subdirectories, each with a single page of shortcuts specific to that audience. I don't add the 'Audience' directory into the main navigation, but instead create a second navigation bar or pick-list that only appears on the front page of the site, which lists the audiences, and links directly to 'their' shortcut page. This provides audience specific wayfinding, which then leads users directly to the content that is appropriate to them. Once on a content page, they can see (by looking at the main navigation) where they are in the site, and learn how the site is organized, so they can find their way around easier in the future. Here is the key, though: Since we have now separated audience-oriented wayfinding from the organization of the site, we can have the content of the audience specific shortcut pages overlap with each other and with the main schema without fear of confusing the site visitor. The same applies to creating any secondary wayfinding schema, including a task-oriented one, as seems appropriate in our case here. One difference between a task-oriented secondary navbar and an audience-oriented one, is that a task link is more likely to go directly to an existing page in the site, instead of to an intermediary page. I hope this helps explain the approach I'm advocating more completely. Michael Bernstein. From digitect@mindspring.com Sat Dec 23 18:57:39 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BF4B2BD74 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 18:57:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4ff.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.239]) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA10791 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 18:57:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <000501c06d3c$2255fd60$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: References: <3A4119E2.D657B37B@obsession.se> <20001220094652.D622@aphid.net> <200012192337.RAA24628@mail1.doit.wisc.edu> <20001219222731.F1013@helixcode.com> <3A4056C9.D47A7CC4@lvcm.com> <20001219235007.H1013@helixcode.com> <3A40F218.A3A42DD1@lvcm.com> <20001220111307.J1013@helixcode.com> <3A4195CC.80CF85C@lvcm.com> <20001220225409.A1013@helixcode.com> <3A45331D.CE46004C@lvcm.com> Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 18:57:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work > From: "Michael Bernstein" > Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2000 6:19 PM > Subject: Re: Navigation Proposal > > . . . > > Here is one possible wayfinding solution that I've suggested > before: Create an additional navigation device on the front > page of the site, separate and distinct from the main > navigation, that lists common tasks and leads to the correct > section of the site. We can also create similar 'audience > oriented' navigation to provide shortcuts for the press, > developers, end-users, etc. The thing to keep in mind is > that these additional wayfinding navbars do not compromise > the *organization* of the sites content, which is still > according to a pure topic oriented schema. > I completely agree with Michael's other statements in this message, but this paragraph bears repeating. If we don't have a clear structure behind the scenes, authoring and maintainability will be pretty much impossible. Why not simply express this structure in the primary navigation scheme? Then the form and the content will have an architectural integrity that makes the site easy to navigate and doesn't require a lot of explanation for everybody that will have to interface with the design of the site at some point in its lifetime. We can *always* put subjective/topical shortcuts from any page to any other page. It's even possible to create whole micro-environments that have content referenced from all over the site for groups like the press, new users, kde users, etc. I wonder if we're struggling with a main structure because we haven't fleshed out a full outline of content. Sooner or later, somebody's going to have to do this ... why not now? Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From digitect@mindspring.com Sat Dec 23 19:27:12 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A47082BDAD for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 19:27:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc001 (user-2ivf4ff.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.145.239]) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA08248 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 19:27:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001b01c06d40$436b1680$0201a8c0@pc001> From: "digitect" To: Subject: Color boards Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 19:27:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work I've finished putting together color boards with some of the theoretical possibilities from my revised color palette at http://www.mindspring.com/~digitect/gnome/index.htm#colorboards. As you can see, the possibilities are pretty expansive with just a limited number of hues. As I said before, at some point we're going to have to take a flying leap into design. Maybe there's one more step of general layout (in grayscale) before we start forging comps. The color/graphics discussion seems to have waned again, so maybe there aren't too many of you who care about the theoretical side of colors and graphics. But I'd appreciate whatever critique anybody would offer, be it either theoretical or gut level. Steve [ digitect@mindspring.com ] From thomasmueller@mail.com Fri Dec 29 16:48:41 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org Received: from pop162-leg.mail.com (pop162-leg.mail.com [165.251.32.54]) by mail.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74DD62BCB1 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 2000 16:48:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.com (pD9036119.dip.t-dialin.net [217.3.97.25]) by pop162-leg.mail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B93281C3E3 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 2000 16:48:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3A4D14D6.7030303@mail.com> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 22:48:54 +0000 From: Thomas Mueller User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux 2.4.0-test1 i686; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001207 X-Accept-Language: de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-web-list@gnome.org, gnome-web-list@gnome.org, gnome-web-list@gnome.org, gnome-web-list@gnome.org, gnome-web-list@gnome.org, gnome-web-list@gnome.org, gnome-web-list@gnome.org, gnome-web-list@gnome.org Subject: OAsis username Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org Errors-To: gnome-web-list-admin@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Loop: gnome-web-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta5 Precedence: bulk List-Id: GNOME web site work Hi, I would like to contribute to bluefish and was told on the website that I have to register with OAsis and send my username to this address. Well, here it is: "ThomasMueller" Happy New Year! Thomas Mueller