From Calum.Benson at Sun.COM Wed Jun 14 13:25:16 2006 From: Calum.Benson at Sun.COM (Calum Benson) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 18:25:16 +0100 Subject: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs In-Reply-To: <3515.1150215756@olgas.newt.com> References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <1149868755.7852.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <17538.1149869665@olgas.newt.com> <3515.1150215756@olgas.newt.com> Message-ID: <645F3922-742E-4B5E-8D69-37D56C69E503@Sun.COM> On 13 Jun 2006, at 17:22, Bill Wohler wrote: > Calum Benson wrote: > >> On 9 Jun 2006, at 17:14, Bill Wohler wrote: >>> >>> Well, I tried C-PageUp/Down in the GtkTreeView widget (in GnuCash), >>> and I have no idea what it's doing. >> >> In a tree view, Ctrl+PgUp/PgDn should be moving focus to the item at >> the top or bottom of the current view; in other controls, it's the >> shortcut for scrolling left/right: >> >> http://www.gnome.org/learn/access-guide/latest/ >> keynav-23.html#keynav-35 >> >> If it's doing something else, it's either a bug, or it's been over- >> ridden by a developer who thinks they know better :) > > Thanks, Calum. Well, that's not what I'm seeing. A GnuCash developer > told me that he wouldn't overwrite the GtkTreeView bindings to allow > C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs so it's unlikely that it has been > overridden. A puzzler indeed. I'll mention this to the developers. > > I still think that the HIG should specify C-PageUp/Down for moving > between tabs and that other widgets should not use this binding. I'd agree that this has been a bugbear long enough that we should probably try a bit harder to fix it properly. The controls that use Ctrl+PgUp/PgDn just to move focus could possibly just do without (by default, at least); you can always hit Ctrl+up/down a few times instead. The ones that use them for scrolling left/right might be trickier, but I'll need to try and put together a complete list before I try and figure something out. Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:calum.benson at sun.com Java Desktop System Team http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems From michael.s.gilbert at gmail.com Fri Jun 16 22:19:21 2006 From: michael.s.gilbert at gmail.com (Michael Gilbert) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 22:19:21 -0400 Subject: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" In-Reply-To: <8e2a98be0606161901j5c6edfdcj3acd734a2ee19751@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> <8e2a98be0606111426w7d6407fdj68c34573295b317@mail.gmail.com> <8e2a98be0606161901j5c6edfdcj3acd734a2ee19751@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8e2a98be0606161919x9a20c7dld5fc3a4715960f2b@mail.gmail.com> Alan Horkan wrote: >The run dialog can be useful in this case. If you know the application >name and type it in then if it is installed the icon will appear in the >dialog and when you hit okay the application will run. If you do not know >the application name (why not?) the run dialog (or some versions of it at >least) have an expander which opens to show a flat list of available >applications. The users were having trouble finding a "find files" application in the applications menu. The did not even attempt to find the program they were looking for in the applications menu. >A package manager like Synaptic might be a good way to check what programs >are installed, it also includes a search tool. Synaptic is a confusing mess. If I were a new user, I would totally avoid it. I still avoid it...but only because I apt-get is so much easier and direct. > A file search is intended for documents and other user files > If you are looking for programs you are not expected to use the file > search. I don't think we should be in the game of telling the user how she is to use her computer. We should be making it as intuitive and broadly useful for the user to user her computer. If she expects to search for executables or system files (due to her poor os upbringing) then it should be perfectly reasonable and obvious for her to do so. we should not be forcing anyone to learn the unix way (find and locate). well maybe it would be useful for the find dialog to say something like, this is what i'm doing 'find / 2>/dev/null | grep fname' click here to learn more about how to use the power of the unix shell to enhance your computing expertise. thanks you for your thoughts. mike From horkana at maths.tcd.ie Sun Jun 18 13:07:14 2006 From: horkana at maths.tcd.ie (Alan Horkan) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 18:07:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" In-Reply-To: <8e2a98be0606161919x9a20c7dld5fc3a4715960f2b@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> <8e2a98be0606111426w7d6407fdj68c34573295b317@mail.gmail.com> <8e2a98be0606161901j5c6edfdcj3acd734a2ee19751@mail.gmail.com> <8e2a98be0606161919x9a20c7dld5fc3a4715960f2b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: [Removed CC's.] On Fri, 16 Jun 2006, Michael Gilbert wrote: > Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 22:19:21 -0400 > From: Michael Gilbert > To: horkana at maths.tcd.ie > Cc: 371882 at bugs.debian.org, usability at gnome.org > Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes > with gnome virgins" > > Alan Horkan wrote: > >The run dialog can be useful in this case. If you know the application > >name and type it in then if it is installed the icon will appear in the > >dialog and when you hit okay the application will run. If you do not know > >the application name (why not?) the run dialog (or some versions of it at > >least) have an expander which opens to show a flat list of available > >applications. > > The users were having trouble finding a "find files" application in > the applications menu. The did not even attempt to find the program > they were looking for in the applications menu. Accomodating users is one thing but it is difficult to help users who are unwilling to even look through the Applications menu. Having said that Novell have their own redesigned setup (which may already be available) which does in fact include a search widget directly in the main menu. Mockups can be seen here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/gamehack/sets/1506658/ > >A package manager like Synaptic might be a good way to check what programs > >are installed, it also includes a search tool. > > Synaptic is a confusing mess. I see you added Debian to the CC list, since Synaptic is a Debian only program not Gnome I will let them comment. > avoid it. I still avoid it...but only because I apt-get is so much > easier and direct. Ubuntu inlcude a simpler frontend to Synaptic which makes things easier for basic adding and removing of programs, you might want to try it. > > A file search is intended for documents and other user files > > > If you are looking for programs you are not expected to use the file > > search. > > I don't think we should be in the game of telling the user how she is > to use her computer. I dont disagree. I was describing how thing are and how best to work around them rather than the ideal situation. The _intention_ of the designers was that find tool would be for finding documents rather than programs. > We should be making it as intuitive and broadly useful for the user to > user her computer. If she expects to search for executables or system > files (due to her poor os upbringing) then it should be perfectly > reasonable and obvious for her to do so. we should not be forcing > anyone to learn the unix way (find and locate). Since you had already given up on the graphical user interface I was explaining how to get more out of the command line, I would not have mentioned it otherwise and I believe if a user feels like they "need" to user the command line the real issue is the Desktop needs to be improved. > well maybe it would be useful for the find dialog to say something like, > this is what i'm doing 'find / 2>/dev/null | grep fname' click here to It is good to try and find ways to reduce the learning curve of the command line but I'm not sure this idea would really work well as part of the graphical user interface. I do think it would be great to have a page in the documentation of the Find tool explaining or introducing the command line alternatives. > learn more about how to use the power of the unix shell to enhance your > computing expertise. > > thanks you for your thoughts. Sincerely Alan Horkan Inkscape http://inkscape.org Abiword http://www.abisource.com Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/ From jnoreiko at yahoo.com Mon Jun 19 02:45:00 2006 From: jnoreiko at yahoo.com (Joachim Noreiko) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 07:45:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060619064500.55514.qmail@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Alan Horkan wrote: > It is good to try and find ways to reduce the > learning curve of the > command line but I'm not sure this idea would really > work well as part of > the graphical user interface. I do think it would > be great to have a page > in the documentation of the Find tool explaining or > introducing the > command line alternatives. I think the find tool docs briefly mention which unix commands are used behind the GUI. However, is the find tool made redundant by the new Nautilus searching? And if not, how are the two meant to work together? ___________________________________________________________ Try the all-new Yahoo! Mail. "The New Version is radically easier to use" ? The Wall Street Journal http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html From horkana at maths.tcd.ie Mon Jun 19 18:51:41 2006 From: horkana at maths.tcd.ie (Alan Horkan) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 23:51:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" In-Reply-To: <20060619064500.55514.qmail@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060619064500.55514.qmail@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Jun 2006, Joachim Noreiko wrote: > > be great to have a page > > in the documentation of the Find tool explaining or > > introducing the > > command line alternatives. > > I think the find tool docs briefly mention which unix > commands are used behind the GUI. good to know > However, is the find tool made redundant by the new > Nautilus searching? And if not, how are the two meant > to work together? I doubt it. I'd expect the find tool to include more advanced options and for the built in tool to keep it simple. There might also be issues with the underlying technologies (Beagle?). I don't know for sure. -- Alan H. From jnoreiko at yahoo.com Tue Jun 20 03:33:12 2006 From: jnoreiko at yahoo.com (Joachim Noreiko) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:33:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Usability] Two types of find (Was: search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060620073312.32951.qmail@web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Alan Horkan wrote: > > > However, is the find tool made redundant by the > new > > Nautilus searching? And if not, how are the two > meant > > to work together? > > I doubt it. I'd expect the find tool to include > more advanced options and > for the built in tool to keep it simple. There > might also be issues > with the underlying technologies (Beagle?). I don't > know for sure. Sure, I can see that operationally there are reasons to have both tool. But with our user hats on for a second -- why are there two find tools, accessed in different ways, with different-looking interfaces? It's confusing, and doesn't give off the joined-up feel that GNOME should have. So -- how can we join them up? ___________________________________________________________ The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html From mystilleef at gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:03:43 2006 From: mystilleef at gmail.com (Mystilleef) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:03:43 -0400 Subject: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment Message-ID: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> Hello, My application is a GUI designed especially for GNOME. Thus, when my application is launched, I register it with the GNOME libraries and then instruct the kernel to create a separate process for the application. The procedure is called forking. The effect of this is that when my application is launched from a shell terminal, the kernel detaches it from the shell terminal's process, therefore making the application run in its own process. Apparently, this has offended some geeks who argue I am breaking some pointless UNIX convention. Their argument is that most (GNOME) applications do not detach from the shell terminal when run from it. And by detaching from the terminal, not only am I creating inconsistencies, but also creating an element of surprise. My response is that this behavior is a hold back from the days when UNIX had no GUI and when almost all applications that ran on it were console applications. The only environment a console application can run in is in a shell environment. That is why console applications have every right to "hug" the shell terminal. Also blocking the shell terminal is the only way console applications can recieve input from users. Graphic user applications, especially the ones designed for "desktop environments" have virtually no reason to be bound to a shell terminal's process. In particular, the only environment a GNOME application should be bound to is the GNOME desktop environment. And I believe you do that by registering with the GNOME and/or freedesktop libraries. In fact, I argue it is bad practice for GUI applications to be bound to a shell terminals process because if the terminal's process dies for any reason the application(s) bound to that terminal dies along with it. In my early linux years, I have lost documents this way. I launched several via the shell terminal, and then I forgetfully or accidentally close the shell terminal's window. Miraculously, all my applications disappear. Also, most graphic user applications are not console applications and as such the life-cycle of such applications should not be determined or controlled or constrained by shell terminal's process running in the sight of users that can easily be killed accidentally or otherwise. The geeks' counter responses ranged from questioning my competence as a shell terminal user, to suggestions to reconfigure my shell properties, to changing my shell environment, to connecting my application to the kernel's KILL signal so it can save its state before dying, among several funny comments. In fact, there's only one reason to provide an option for not detaching. Some console applications may need to pipe their result to my application. And my application needs to be connected to the shell's process for that to be happen successfully. There are many other silly UNIX conventions that are a hold back from yesteryears which bite us in the behind today. I recommend the "UNIX Haters Handbook" for an exhaustive listing. Yet many people religiously clinge to them without reason. I feel this issue is one them. Is it advisable to encourage developers via the HIG to avoid hugging the terminal. I mean, apart from the fact that it is just pointless especially for GUI apps, there's also the possibility of losing applications bound to the terminal's process when the terminal quits for whatever reasons. And why on earth would anyone want to bind a GUI app to the process of another user visible application? I bring this up here because the geeks say I am trying to "fix" the problem the wrong way. They insist that the problem, if at all it is one should be "fixed" at a global level outside my application. I'm guessing perhaps at a library level. So, I welcome your comments and thought on the issue. My opinion is that the default behavior for GUI applications, GNOME in particular, is to detach from the shell terminal, while an option to prevent detachment should be provided for those who need it. A positive side effect of my suggestion is that it frees the terminal to be used by other applications designed for terminal usage. Cheers From mike at mike-burns.com Tue Jun 20 16:18:34 2006 From: mike at mike-burns.com (Mike Burns) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:18:34 -0400 Subject: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment In-Reply-To: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060620201834.GA68180@gaping.mike-burns.com> On 2006-06-20 16.03.43 -0400, Mystilleef wrote: > Graphic user applications, especially the ones designed for "desktop > environments" have virtually no reason to be bound to a shell terminal's > process. How many users who run the program in question run it from the terminal instead of the applications menu, panel, Alt+F2, or a hotkey? How many who run it from the terminal aren't shell experts who know about stuff like '&'? -- Mike Burns mike at mike-burns.com http://mike-burns.com From mystilleef at gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:32:14 2006 From: mystilleef at gmail.com (Mystilleef) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:32:14 -0400 Subject: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment In-Reply-To: <20060620201834.GA68180@gaping.mike-burns.com> References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <20060620201834.GA68180@gaping.mike-burns.com> Message-ID: <9605403b0606201332r169394a3mdad3a6a12da9115f@mail.gmail.com> I can't really say how many users run it from the terminal or from the menu. But it seems a few do run it from the terminal. Of course, on UNIX -like systems it is not uncommon to run applications from the terminal. And depending on your shell environment "&" does not detach applications from the shell's process. Apparently, for BASH, there is "disown" command for that. But I don't believe proficiency in BASH or shell wizardry should be a requirement for using applications designed for GNOME. On 6/20/06, Mike Burns wrote: > On 2006-06-20 16.03.43 -0400, Mystilleef wrote: > > Graphic user applications, especially the ones designed for "desktop > > environments" have virtually no reason to be bound to a shell terminal's > > process. > > How many users who run the program in question run it from the terminal > instead of the applications menu, panel, Alt+F2, or a hotkey? How many who > run it from the terminal aren't shell experts who know about stuff like '&'? > > -- > Mike Burns mike at mike-burns.com http://mike-burns.com > From alleykat at gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:34:11 2006 From: alleykat at gmail.com (Travis Watkins) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:34:11 -0500 Subject: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment In-Reply-To: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 6/20/06, Mystilleef wrote: > Graphic user applications, especially the ones designed for "desktop > environments" have virtually no reason to be bound to a shell terminal's > process. How are we supposed to get the debug output from those GNOME libraries you use? -- Travis Watkins http://www.realistanew.com From mystilleef at gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:41:10 2006 From: mystilleef at gmail.com (Mystilleef) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:41:10 -0400 Subject: [Usability] Fwd: GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment In-Reply-To: <9605403b0606201339k12f232dfl57e73b92b2ee2cf5@mail.gmail.com> References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <9605403b0606201339k12f232dfl57e73b92b2ee2cf5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9605403b0606201341w12b56135o2b6da3fd50709fa9@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Mystilleef Date: Jun 20, 2006 4:39 PM Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment To: Travis Watkins On 6/20/06, Travis Watkins wrote: > On 6/20/06, Mystilleef wrote: > > Graphic user applications, especially the ones designed for "desktop > > environments" have virtually no reason to be bound to a shell terminal's > > process. > > How are we supposed to get the debug output from those GNOME libraries you use? > > -- > Travis Watkins > http://www.realistanew.com > You can print to stderr, which will display the debug output in the terminal the application was launched in, or you can print to a log file. Or maybe I didn't understand the question well enough? From mystilleef at gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:44:52 2006 From: mystilleef at gmail.com (Mystilleef) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:44:52 -0400 Subject: [Usability] Fwd: GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment In-Reply-To: References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <9605403b0606201339k12f232dfl57e73b92b2ee2cf5@mail.gmail.com> <9605403b0606201341w12b56135o2b6da3fd50709fa9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9605403b0606201344s4adf74d5l893e43b608b993ba@mail.gmail.com> On 6/20/06, Travis Watkins wrote: > On 6/20/06, Mystilleef wrote: > > You can print to stderr, which will display the debug output in the > > terminal the application was launched in, or you can print to a log > > file. Or maybe I didn't understand the question well enough? > > If you've separated from the terminal does outputting to stderr still > send output to said terminal? > > -- > Travis Watkins > http://www.realistanew.com > Yes, it does. From alleykat at gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:43:55 2006 From: alleykat at gmail.com (Travis Watkins) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:43:55 -0500 Subject: [Usability] Fwd: GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment In-Reply-To: <9605403b0606201341w12b56135o2b6da3fd50709fa9@mail.gmail.com> References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <9605403b0606201339k12f232dfl57e73b92b2ee2cf5@mail.gmail.com> <9605403b0606201341w12b56135o2b6da3fd50709fa9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 6/20/06, Mystilleef wrote: > You can print to stderr, which will display the debug output in the > terminal the application was launched in, or you can print to a log > file. Or maybe I didn't understand the question well enough? If you've separated from the terminal does outputting to stderr still send output to said terminal? -- Travis Watkins http://www.realistanew.com From http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2002-02-06-013-20-RV-KE-0004 Matt Perrt - Subject: Re: Wish List for kde3 ( Feb 7, 2002, 00:16:08 ) I have but one wish for KDE3. Make the "about" menu of each program display a one or two paragraph summary of what the program is about. Move all the credits to a "credits" menu. For new computer users, it's misleading to have the about menu not tell you anything useful about the program. Flame away ;-) Gregory Merchan From maurizio.colucci@gmail.com Sat Jun 3 09:44:58 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84B783B0071 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 09:44:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06472-03 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 09:44:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.225]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C22D3B04A9 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 09:44:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 50so711416wri for ; Sat, 03 Jun 2006 06:44:54 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=ueyQCybpWPMALDzDI3limxwRxIl77AriXASXgdjlnwOf+AW372pd6t9Vb64sFv7dsEpKBavtuMpnHsa4Xdronef3L9406qVAygiWe4PvwRYktPpImW1ASpjnKdnamNKMdXcz01o7/cM+dRHHr0HLE4di4q6Ou3KdSXFa3hRNpCo= Received: by 10.64.195.9 with SMTP id s9mr2455617qbf; Sat, 03 Jun 2006 06:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.237.7 with HTTP; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 06:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 15:44:54 +0200 From: "Maurizio Colucci" To: usability@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_18723_27366656.1149342294208" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.457 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.142, BAYES_05=-1.11, HTML_00_10=0.795, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.457 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Usability] Fingerprint reader X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 13:44:58 -0000 ------=_Part_18723_27366656.1149342294208 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi, Yesterday, when I had a friend of mine try the new Ubuntu, I had an unpleasant suprise: he laughed at me when he saw me type the password by hand. It seems he has been using a fingerprint reader under Windows, for more than a year now. I realized this is a feature that he will not do without, now he has gotten used to it. It seems the advantage under GNU/Linux would be even greater, since GNU/Linux requires you to type passwords more often than Windows. Is there some way to use a fingerprint reader to type passwords with Gnome? (My guess is it isn't, and that some work would be needed at the level of gksu and gdm.) I have no real point however, I only wished to inform you about this. Cheers Maurizio ------=_Part_18723_27366656.1149342294208 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi,
Yesterday, when I had a friend of mine try the new Ubuntu, I had an unpleasant suprise: he laughed at me when he saw me type the password by hand. It seems he has been using a fingerprint reader under Windows, for more than a year now.

I realized this is a feature that he will not do without, now he has gotten used to it.

It seems the advantage under GNU/Linux would be even greater, since GNU/Linux requires you to type passwords more often than Windows.

Is there some way to use a fingerprint reader to type passwords with Gnome? (My guess is it isn't, and that some work would be needed at the level of gksu and gdm.)

I have no real point however, I only wished to inform you about this. Cheers

Maurizio
------=_Part_18723_27366656.1149342294208-- From herzi@gnome-de.org Sat Jun 3 10:16:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39D073B0418 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:16:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08377-05 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:16:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.bytecamp.net (mail.bytecamp.net [212.204.60.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4B0413B011C for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:16:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 49673 invoked by uid 85); 3 Jun 2006 14:16:19 -0000 Received: from herzi@gnome-de.org by mail.bytecamp.net by uid 88 with qmail-scanner-1.20 (clamscan: 0.88.1 Clear:RC:0(80.171.61.188):. Processed in 0.020755 secs); 03 Jun 2006 14:16:19 -0000 Received: from d061188.adsl.hansenet.de (HELO wallace) (herzi%gnome-de.org@80.171.61.188) by mail.bytecamp.net with SMTP; 3 Jun 2006 14:16:18 -0000 Subject: Re: [Usability] Fingerprint reader From: Sven Herzberg To: Maurizio Colucci In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-eRqHlUcxkMCx8gO/XwrP" Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 17:35:30 +0200 Message-Id: <1149348930.5442.12.camel@wallace> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.48 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.042, BAYES_00=-2.599, TW_GD=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.48 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 14:16:27 -0000 --=-eRqHlUcxkMCx8gO/XwrP Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sa, 2006-06-03 at 15:44 +0200, Maurizio Colucci wrote: > Yesterday, when I had a friend of mine try the new Ubuntu, I had an > unpleasant suprise: he laughed at me when he saw me type the password > by hand. It seems he has been using a fingerprint reader under > Windows, for more than a year now.=20 >=20 > I realized this is a feature that he will not do without, now he has > gotten used to it.=20 >=20 > It seems the advantage under GNU/Linux would be even greater, since > GNU/Linux requires you to type passwords more often than Windows.=20 >=20 > Is there some way to use a fingerprint reader to type passwords with > Gnome? (My guess is it isn't, and that some work would be needed at > the level of gksu and gdm.)=20 The fingerprint readers in the Thinkpad X41 series do work with Linux and work with the pam-bio-api plugin. I tested this both with gdm and gksu and it works (not perfectly but, well, it wors). I only didn't test it with gnome keyring (which will be an important thing too). > I have no real point however, I only wished to inform you about this. > Cheers=20 Regards, Sven --=-eRqHlUcxkMCx8gO/XwrP Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEgaxCBWX9a7HDCv4RAn03AKDFQ6419PZ/XzvvDpkjxBimpH0sywCfawZV RYa+Y4FgXJ2XedGWhwxW8uc= =Ocwk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-eRqHlUcxkMCx8gO/XwrP-- From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Sat Jun 3 10:17:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D17B43B05AE for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:17:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08314-10 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:17:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 28FB03B0601 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:17:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 3 Jun 2006 15:17:44 +0100 (BST) Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 15:17:44 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan To: Maurizio Colucci Subject: Re: [Usability] Fingerprint reader In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 14:17:50 -0000 On Sat, 3 Jun 2006, Maurizio Colucci wrote: > Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 15:44:54 +0200 > From: Maurizio Colucci > To: usability@gnome.org > Subject: [Usability] Fingerprint reader > > Hi, > Yesterday, when I had a friend of mine try the new Ubuntu, I had an > unpleasant suprise: he laughed at me when he saw me type the password by > hand. It seems he has been using a fingerprint reader under Windows, for > more than a year now. This is a bit off topic for this list. Better to check with Ubuntu about hardware support. > It seems the advantage under GNU/Linux would be even greater, since > GNU/Linux requires you to type passwords more often than Windows. (It is easier to just type Gnome than GNU/Linux every time.) A topic more appropriate to this list would be trying to figure out ways to improve password sharing and single sign on so that you do not need to type passwords so often. > Is there some way to use a fingerprint reader to type passwords with Gnome? I assume it would fit in with the existing password infrastructure. I know Sun Microsystems have systems setup to login and authenticate off a smart card and there are suggestions of doing the same using USB keys so I'd be surprised if there wasn't already a supported finger print reader but it may take a little bit of additional work to get it up and running. > I have no real point however, I only wished to inform you about this. Cheers Thanks for trying. -- Alan From elektro@geekspot.de Sun Jun 4 11:01:01 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10C033B016C for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 11:01:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24057-03 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 11:00:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.169199.vserver.de (riedrich.biz [62.75.169.199]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45FC53B011B for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 11:00:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.169199.vserver.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id E21EB338804F for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:00:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp.169199.vserver.de ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (169199.vserver.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19483-02 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:00:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Desktop.lan (d463d0c7.datahighways.de [212.99.208.199]) by smtp.169199.vserver.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4E35338804D for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:00:39 +0200 (CEST) From: elektro To: usability@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 17:00:39 +0200 Message-Id: <1149433239.10978.15.camel@desktop> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: By ClamAV on Debian GNU/Linux at Geekspot X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.465 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.465 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Usability] The "Desktop" dilemma X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 15:01:01 -0000 Hi there, I'm new to this mailing list, so I don't know if this has already been discussed or not. What really disturbs me a lot (in almost all operating systems) is the "Desktop dilemma". I think the desktop folder, or the Desktop button in the places menu somehow just doesn't fit in. In Nautilus, in my home folder, I have a "Desktop" folder. But in the sidebar, I have a place called "personal folder", and a second place called "Desktop", although "Desktop" is also a sub-directory of my "personal folder". This is confusing, especially to new users. I think the desktop should be _either_ a directory, _or_ a place, but not both. My suggestion would be to have the desktop only show up as a place, and the files on the desktop could be stored in a hidden ".desktop" directory within the user's home. Another thing is the two Nautilus toolbar buttons "Personal folder" and "Computer". The button in the toolbar says "Personal folder", while the same button in the sidebar reads my username. I think both buttons should be removed, instead, the "Computer" icon should also appear as a button in the "places" sidebar. I'd bring some new arrangement into the places sidebar, similar to the one in the "Places" menu in the panel: -------- Personal Desktop -------- Computer File system -------- Network servers -------- The problem with the current layout is that all drives are completely mixed together, the "file system" place is also somewhere in between. When you go the the "Computer" place, you see all attached/mounted drives as icons. The problem is that it's hard to see if a drive is actually mounted or not, for example my USB stick: It's hard to see from the icon if it is mounted or not. What I also really miss is the ability to unmount/eject an external drive be right-clicking the icon in the sidebar or in the Places menu. Mac OS X is doing this right: An mounted CD-ROM appars in a Finder sidebar, similar to Nautilus, but there's a little "eject button" next to the icon, when you click this, the CD is unmounted and ejected. Perhaps you could add such an eject button to the places sidebar and the places panel menu. Tom From david@sipsolutions.net Sun Jun 4 14:35:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B06D43B017A for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 14:35:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03644-08 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 14:35:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sipsolutions.net (crystal.sipsolutions.net [195.210.38.204]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DE083B0130 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 14:35:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [84.133.205.221] (helo=[192.168.1.7]) by sipsolutions.net with esmtpsa (TLS-1.0:RSA_ARCFOUR_MD5:16) (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FmxRy-0007EF-Op; Sun, 04 Jun 2006 19:35:47 +0100 Subject: Re: [Usability] The "Desktop" dilemma From: David Christian Berg To: elektro In-Reply-To: <1149433239.10978.15.camel@desktop> References: <1149433239.10978.15.camel@desktop> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 20:34:58 +0200 Message-Id: <1149446101.8310.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 18:35:51 -0000 Hey Tom! > I think the desktop should be _either_ a directory, _or_ a place, but > not both. My suggestion would be to have the desktop only show up as a > place, and the files on the desktop could be stored in a hidden > ".desktop" directory within the user's home. Would you be ok with displaying the desktop as a desktop icon in the home directory as well so that it's easily distinguishable from other folders? > Another thing is the two Nautilus toolbar buttons "Personal folder" and > "Computer". The button in the toolbar says "Personal folder", while the > same button in the sidebar reads my username. I think both buttons > should be removed, instead, the "Computer" icon should also appear as a > button in the "places" sidebar. In my version the folder reads "Home Folder" and the button "Go to home folder" I don't think there's anything wrong with this, because many people might not use the tree view on the sidepane. The computer icon is not needed in the tree view, because you see the drives anyways > I'd bring some new arrangement into the places sidebar, similar to the > one in the "Places" menu in the panel: > > -------- > Personal > Desktop > -------- > Computer > File system > > > > -------- > Network servers > > -------- > The problem with the current layout is that all drives are completely > mixed together, the "file system" place is also somewhere in between. I do like the idea of dividing them this way and also would add a separate section for mounted media like cams and usb sticks, floppies and CDs... if possible. However, does GTK TreeView have a dividing element? As for the Computer: I'd leave it unchanged > When you go the the "Computer" place, you see all attached/mounted > drives as icons. The problem is that it's hard to see if a drive is > actually mounted or not, for example my USB stick: It's hard to see from > the icon if it is mounted or not. What I also really miss is the ability > to unmount/eject an external drive be right-clicking the icon in the > sidebar or in the Places menu. Mac OS X is doing this right: An mounted > CD-ROM appars in a Finder sidebar, similar to Nautilus, but there's a > little "eject button" next to the icon, when you click this, the CD is > unmounted and ejected. Perhaps you could add such an eject button to the > places sidebar and the places panel menu. Afaik you only see the icon, if it is mounted... at least it should be that way with all the media. Take care! David From chris@gnome-de.org Mon Jun 5 09:09:35 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 849453B0208 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:09:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00391-01 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:09:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.bytecamp.net (mail.bytecamp.net [212.204.60.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 56FE63B02DA for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:09:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 3177 invoked by uid 85); 5 Jun 2006 13:09:21 -0000 Received: from chris@gnome-de.org by mail.bytecamp.net by uid 88 with qmail-scanner-1.20 (clamscan: 0.88.1 Clear:RC:0(84.150.144.79):. Processed in 0.190123 secs); 05 Jun 2006 13:09:21 -0000 Received: from p5496904f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (HELO ?192.168.123.191?) (chris@gnome-de.org@84.150.144.79) by mail.bytecamp.net with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 13:09:20 -0000 Subject: Re: [Usability] Fingerprint reader From: Christian Neumair To: Maurizio Colucci In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 15:02:50 +0200 Message-Id: <1149512570.8272.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.587 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.012, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.587 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:09:35 -0000 Am Samstag, den 03.06.2006, 15:44 +0200 schrieb Maurizio Colucci: > Hi, > Yesterday, when I had a friend of mine try the new Ubuntu, I had an > unpleasant suprise: he laughed at me when he saw me type the password > by hand. It seems he has been using a fingerprint reader under > Windows, for more than a year now. > > I realized this is a feature that he will not do without, now he has > gotten used to it. > > It seems the advantage under GNU/Linux would be even greater, since > GNU/Linux requires you to type passwords more often than Windows. > > Is there some way to use a fingerprint reader to type passwords with > Gnome? (My guess is it isn't, and that some work would be needed at > the level of gksu and gdm.) > > I have no real point however, I only wished to inform you about this. > Cheers I filed an Ubuntu spec some months ago: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FingerprintAuthentication All the tools seem to be available already. As soon as the framework is in place, we'll adapt the GNOME stack to support it, creating a configuration and authentication UI, and gnome-keyring integration. I contacted the BioAPI packager Michael R. Crusoe some time ago to ask him whether he will split up the packages a bit, but I didn't get any response so far. From hadess@hadess.net Mon Jun 5 15:50:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9155B3B085A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:50:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26525-04 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:50:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lucifer.nerdfest.org (lucifer.nerdfest.org [216.243.209.218]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 426593B08B0 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:50:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.5] (cpc4-glfd1-0-0-cust751.glfd.cable.ntl.com [86.16.126.240]) (authenticated bits=0) by lucifer.nerdfest.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k55JoPoh009983 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:50:28 -0500 Subject: Re: [Usability] Fingerprint reader From: Bastien Nocera To: Maurizio Colucci In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:55:11 +0100 Message-Id: <1149537312.9198.9.camel@wyatt.hadess.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.5.90 (2.5.90-2.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.88.2/1512/Sun Jun 4 04:58:49 2006 on lucifer.nerdfest.org X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.594 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.006, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.594 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:50:45 -0000 On Sat, 2006-06-03 at 15:44 +0200, Maurizio Colucci wrote: > Hi, > Yesterday, when I had a friend of mine try the new Ubuntu, I had an > unpleasant suprise: he laughed at me when he saw me type the password > by hand. It seems he has been using a fingerprint reader under > Windows, for more than a year now. A combination of pam_keyring, and the pam modules Sven mentioned should do: http://www.hekanetworks.com/index.php/publisher/articleview/frmArticleID/25/staticId/31/ -- Bastien Nocera From glatzor@ubuntu.com Tue Jun 6 08:03:14 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEBF33B08AA for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:03:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19222-06 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:03:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail-out.m-online.net (mail-out.m-online.net [212.18.0.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6463D3B0979 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:02:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail01.m-online.net (svr21.m-online.net [192.168.3.149]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76F2672CC4 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:02:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pimpzkru.dyndns.org (ppp-62-245-208-121.mnet-online.de [62.245.208.121]) by mail.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CBC891424 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:02:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pimpzkru.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE831D2C38 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:16:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pimpzkru.dyndns.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (server.daheim [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32591-08 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:16:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from sebi-mac.daheim (sebi-mac.daheim [10.169.18.2]) by pimpzkru.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9B05D2C2C for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:16:31 +0200 (CEST) From: Sebastian Heinlein To: usability@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 14:01:40 +0200 Message-Id: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at pimpzkru X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.435 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.029, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.435 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Usability] Using nouns or verbs for the disclosure widgets X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:03:15 -0000 Hi, would you recommend to use a noun for the disclosure widgets e.g. "Details" or verbs e.g. "Show details"/"Hide details"? There is no corresponding section in the HIG. And both variants are in use currently. Regards, Sebastian From raeth.phox@gmail.com Tue Jun 6 08:19:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9826F3B08AA for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:19:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20110-07 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:19:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.172]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7004D3B0141 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:19:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id o2so1645338uge for ; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 05:18:59 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=tzLanvgM7DJ/K0gtFSV1wYYqtq8vky0oxlEnHI8oKGZofqP/pbVnOLV7L7iYyewPK9Gme2GZTeyuoMqaNb3XagvchsF2X4ZxJVbIEFZZLbxc9pw44qz/1fjm8q28B7cABezCyBe6Dbv4CVDkQNx8+mmYVGk7Jp+NK9CFUNLM1Tg= Received: by 10.78.18.1 with SMTP id 1mr1130306hur; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 05:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.50.15 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 05:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <878a8ff60606060518h749cc845x32a54fa2ded2650d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 13:18:59 +0100 From: Raeth Subject: Re: [Usability] Using nouns or verbs for the disclosure widgets Cc: usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.042 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.558, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.042 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:19:03 -0000 Hey, I'd go with "Show/Hide details", as it indicates whether the details are being currently shown or hidden. I think a verb would be more fitting with natural language. If I wanted to see the details, I'd want to "show details". I wouldn't go "details" to hide or show them. If they were on a tab you'd want the objective noun, like a title, but seeing as the disclosure widget is an action, I'd go with an action phrase. A verb would correspond with the such commonly used verbs as "save file" and "cancel". Raeth On 6/6/06, Sebastian Heinlein wrote: > Hi, > > would you recommend to use a noun for the disclosure widgets e.g. > "Details" or verbs e.g. "Show details"/"Hide details"? > > There is no corresponding section in the HIG. And both variants are in > use currently. > > Regards, > > Sebastian From Calum.Benson@Sun.COM Tue Jun 6 18:39:53 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81A1D3B01E8 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 18:39:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26404-10 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 18:39:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B08643B00E6 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 18:39:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-01.sun.com (d1-emea-01.sun.com [192.18.2.111] (may be forged)) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k56Mdlui019400 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 23:39:47 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-01.sun.com by d1-emea-01.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0G00H01HQ39T00@d1-emea-01.sun.com> (original mail from Calum.Benson@Sun.COM) for usability@gnome.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 23:39:46 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([213.202.177.89]) by d1-emea-01.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0G00IGYMYAOE00@d1-emea-01.sun.com>; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 23:39:46 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 23:39:43 +0100 From: Calum Benson Subject: Re: [Usability] Using nouns or verbs for the disclosure widgets In-reply-to: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> Sender: Calum.Benson@Sun.COM To: Sebastian Heinlein Message-id: <5FB97E1B-5914-4EB7-9674-ADDF1C47C503@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 22:39:53 -0000 On 6 Jun 2006, at 13:01, Sebastian Heinlein wrote: > would you recommend to use a noun for the disclosure widgets e.g. > "Details" or verbs e.g. "Show details"/"Hide details"? Hmm... out if interest I looked at the Apple guidelines, and it said that verbs were preferred, then illustrated the guideline with an example using a noun :) Seems like it's not just our HIG that has that kind of problem... http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/ OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGControls/chapter_18_section_7.html#//apple_ref/ doc/uid/TP30000359-TPXREF141 Personally, I've always labelled disclosure widgets in the same way I'd label a frame, i.e. with a noun (but without the bold text, of course). The direction of the arrow, in conjunction with the presence or absence of controls below it, seems sufficient to indicate the current shown/hidden status IMHO. And dynamically changing text is never much fun for screenreaders to keep up with either. > There is no corresponding section in the HIG. Yeah, that placeholder's been there a while :/ I really want to get stuck into the HIG post-GUADEC (assuming I'm not one of Sun's unlucky 5000....) Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:calum.benson@sun.com Java Desktop System Team http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Wed Jun 7 05:42:50 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13CA93B0C9A for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 05:42:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32165-01 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 05:42:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 339AA3B0AE7 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 05:42:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 7 Jun 2006 10:42:44 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 10:42:42 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan To: Calum Benson Subject: Re: [Usability] Using nouns or verbs for the disclosure widgets In-Reply-To: <5FB97E1B-5914-4EB7-9674-ADDF1C47C503@sun.com> Message-ID: References: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> <5FB97E1B-5914-4EB7-9674-ADDF1C47C503@sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 09:42:50 -0000 On Tue, 6 Jun 2006, Calum Benson wrote: [...] > Yeah, that placeholder's been there a while :/ I really want to get > stuck into the HIG post-GUADEC (assuming I'm not one of Sun's unlucky > 5000....) If you are among the unlucky hundreds it would be a serious loss to Gnome, since you seem to be the only usability professional actively helping on this list anymore. If there are other usability professionals here rather than enthusiastic amateurs please do feel free to (re)introduce yourselves. -- Alan From gnome-Usability@m.gmane.org Wed Jun 7 18:55:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11D1B3B0E64 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 18:55:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20656-09 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 18:55:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2131A3B0DED for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 18:55:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Fo6w6-0002OX-Iw for Usability@gnome.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:55:38 +0200 Received: from h-68-165-5-38.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.5.38]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:55:38 +0200 Received: from wohler by h-68-165-5-38.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:55:38 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: Usability@gnome.org From: Bill Wohler Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 15:55:24 -0700 Organization: Newt Software Lines: 20 Message-ID: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: h-68-165-5-38.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:VJ8cSiv38JexgyR7BZmb2CDKtXA= Sender: news X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 22:55:52 -0000 I think it is common to use C-PageUp and C-PageDown to move between tabs (for example, Galeon). Is this true? The latest version of GnuCash has tabs, and I'd like to be able to use keyboard navigation to move between them. Note that the tabs have different views using different GTK widgets. Currently, some of the tabs, such as the account tree view, allow C-M-PageUp and C-M-PageDown. Should the developers override the GtkTreeView widget so that C-PageUp and C-PageDown move between the tabs? Should this widget be fixed so that these keystrokes move between tabs by default? Or, something else entirely? I look forward to your thoughts. -- Bill Wohler http://www.newt.com/wohler/ GnuPG ID:610BD9AD Maintainer of comp.mail.mh FAQ and MH-E. If you're passed on the right, you're in the wrong lane. From newren@gmail.com Wed Jun 7 19:18:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDB033B0381 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:18:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22064-05 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:18:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.196]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B32933B019C for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:18:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so308940wxd for ; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 16:18:46 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=TWqobyNh87WUejW4RD35y63ZAvcLUk+QGiLvnvF+KPzTm9RHFZF5VjW7d7y89W/8kJt5+sbkOZFTBJUsJR1d8YM4amj/MEV+YRxnVBediNYQs9Km6z3RNHwua8n60ly83WjGy6d7j97OMrGnJZgPCTD6u1syejJPGylqaWkIzho= Received: by 10.70.73.15 with SMTP id v15mr1343030wxa; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 16:18:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.7 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 16:18:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 17:18:28 -0600 From: "Elijah Newren" To: "Bill Wohler" Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs In-Reply-To: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.575 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.575 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 23:18:49 -0000 On 6/7/06, Bill Wohler wrote: > I think it is common to use C-PageUp and C-PageDown to move between > tabs (for example, Galeon). Is this true? Also used by Mozilla, Firefox, Epiphany, X-Chat, and gnome-terminal, at least. I was planning on adding a keybinding based off it (C-A-PageUp/PageDown) for Metacity for multiscreen (non-xinerama) users to switch the focus between screens (see bug 101659). So, I'd say it's becoming fairly common. Would be nice if there were even greater consistency among apps in this area (gedit, for example, doesn't play along and it took me a while to figure out the keybinding). From Calum.Benson@Sun.COM Wed Jun 7 19:42:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5B033B0E85 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:42:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23635-02 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:42:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D516F3B036A for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:42:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-05.sun.com (d1-emea-05.sun.com [192.18.2.115] (may be forged)) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k57NgGIx020123 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 00:42:16 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-05.sun.com by d1-emea-05.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0I00K01DXE8100@d1-emea-05.sun.com> (original mail from Calum.Benson@Sun.COM) for Usability@gnome.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:42:15 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([194.125.112.30]) by d1-emea-05.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0I00I7RKIFLH30@d1-emea-05.sun.com>; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:42:15 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:42:11 +0100 From: Calum Benson Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs In-reply-to: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> Sender: Calum.Benson@Sun.COM To: Bill Wohler Message-id: <8D893175-CF50-4807-B113-1A7D97A2E36A@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 23:42:20 -0000 On 7 Jun 2006, at 23:55, Bill Wohler wrote: > I think it is common to use C-PageUp and C-PageDown to move between > tabs (for example, Galeon). Is this true? > > The latest version of GnuCash has tabs, and I'd like to be able to use > keyboard navigation to move between them. Note that the tabs have > different views using different GTK widgets. Currently, some of the > tabs, such as the account tree view, allow C-M-PageUp and > C-M-PageDown. > > Should the developers override the GtkTreeView widget so that > C-PageUp and C-PageDown move between the tabs? Should this widget be > fixed so that these keystrokes move between tabs by default? Or, > something else entirely? Well, Ctrl-Alt-PgUp/PgDn is the documented[1] alternative for places that Ctrl-PgUp/PgDn doesn't/can't work (i.e. because of the focused control using Ctrl-PgUp/PgDn itself). Unless we can come up with a plan for avoiding the collisions that require the use of Alt in some situations, I'd recommend sticking with the current consistent-if-a- little-clunky behaviour, rather than overriding it in some places but (inevitably) not others. Cheeri, Calum. [1] http://www.gnome.org/learn/access-guide/latest/ keynav-23.html#keynav-33 -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:calum.benson@sun.com Java Desktop System Team http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems From mpt@myrealbox.com Wed Jun 7 20:08:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 565953B04C8 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 20:08:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24932-06 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 20:08:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from leucothea.redline.site5.com (leucothea.redline.site5.com [216.118.97.161]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A22143B0384 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 20:08:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ool-44c0bc13.dyn.optonline.net ([68.192.188.19] helo=[192.168.0.5]) by leucothea.redline.site5.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.52) id 1Fo84Q-0007No-7s; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 20:08:18 -0400 In-Reply-To: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> References: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <83a57a3908c9daadda5812fafca772a5@myrealbox.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Matthew Paul Thomas Subject: Re: [Usability] Using nouns or verbs for the disclosure widgets Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 20:07:37 -0400 To: Gnome usability X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.623) X-Antivirus-Scanner: This message has been scanned by ClamAV. X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - leucothea.redline.site5.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnome.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - myrealbox.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:08:27 -0000 On Jun 6, 2006, at 8:01 AM, Sebastian Heinlein wrote: > ... > would you recommend to use a noun for the disclosure widgets e.g. > "Details" or verbs e.g. "Show details"/"Hide details"? > ... Hi Sebastian I suggest making the label a summary of the values of the disclosed controls, if practical, not just a description. "Details" is the least informative example of a description, and may be appropriate if you want the expander to be very unobtrusive. But a more informative label may reduce the need for people to expand the section at all. For example, |> Progress details which expands to __ \/ Progress details Time remaining: about 11 minutes Progress: 15 of 29 items Copying: vilanova_presentation.ogg Size: 10.0 MB of 45.0 MB is much less useful than |> Time remaining: about 11 minutes which expands to __ \/ Time remaining: about 11 minutes Progress: 15 of 29 items Copying: vilanova_presentation.ogg Size: 10.0 MB of 45.0 MB Conversely, a more informative label may give a clue of unusual things that you set accidentally, or that you set long ago and then forgot about. For example: __ \/ Custom style sheet (2 rules active) __________________________________________________________ |:link, :visited {text-decoration: underline !important} | |a[href^="javascript:"] {color: green !important} | | | |__________________________________________________________| Switching between "Show Foo" and "Hide Foo" would make the function of the control more obvious, but it would also make the label jump around between collapsed and expanded states. It also would result in ugly repetition where several expander controls were next to each other. For example, repeating "Show" Printing the heading for each in a formatting palette would expandable area by itself is look nasty: much easier to scan: ___________________________ ___________________________ |(X) Formatting (-)| |(X) Formatting (-)| |___________________________| |___________________________| |_>_Show_Font_Settings______| |_>_Font____________________| |_>_Show_Paragraph_Settings_| |_>_Paragraph_______________| |_>_Show_List_Settings______| |_>_List____________________| |_>_Show_Border_Settings____| |_>_Border__________________| |_>_Show_Page_Settings______| |_>_Page____________________| Cheers -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ From nigel.tao.gnome@gmail.com Thu Jun 8 02:08:21 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B93C23B0585 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 02:08:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10570-08 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 02:08:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.229]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8F183B0576 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 02:08:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 50so362302wri for ; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 23:08:17 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=G3ca7jhamDoCoDkkhkKhrUk2Q8C8QWNKTdZLp99+4qZYcnpQa0AU5XGm6ozUs1WCS3EzZwoGN55kTdpnL2dlPPIx9cpa5uYOGLhRDC8u+PuWuWFWj4zh5KNrGruUt74CaE1J7kC758zhIHElrqc9XnBPALEbQIL98Mb9LntRxtE= Received: by 10.64.47.19 with SMTP id u19mr1451658qbu; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 23:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.214.18 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 23:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9188fcea0606072308n35ce5008xcd047c8cd7fca53d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 16:08:16 +1000 From: "Nigel Tao" To: "Elijah Newren" Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs In-Reply-To: <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.569 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.031, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.569 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org, Bill Wohler X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 06:08:21 -0000 > Would be nice if there were even > greater consistency among apps in this area (gedit, for example, > doesn't play along and it took me a while to figure out the > keybinding). Somewhat tangential, I recently wrote a gedit plugin so that C-PageUp and C-PageDown switches between tabs. C-A-PageUp and C-A-PageDown still works, too. http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gedit-list/2006-May/msg00039.html From nudrema@gmail.com Thu Jun 8 02:10:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 508793B0564 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 02:10:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10923-04 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 02:10:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swip.net (mailfe03.swip.net [212.247.154.65]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C74D73B0576 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 02:10:38 -0400 (EDT) X-T2-Posting-ID: Ee7YIbSG3O5rNcT4cGADretWTWrDEjpwS9FwzyhFhzk= X-Cloudmark-Score: 0.000000 [] Received: from [83.182.30.136] (HELO [10.0.0.13]) by mailfe03.swip.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.8) with ESMTP id 217242419 for Usability@gnome.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 08:10:36 +0200 Message-ID: <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 08:10:33 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Steve_Fr=E9cinaux?= User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060522) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.964 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.434, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_NEUTRAL=1.069] X-Spam-Score: -1.964 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 06:10:41 -0000 Elijah Newren wrote: > On 6/7/06, Bill Wohler wrote: >> I think it is common to use C-PageUp and C-PageDown to move between >> tabs (for example, Galeon). Is this true? > > Also used by Mozilla, Firefox, Epiphany, X-Chat, and gnome-terminal, > at least. Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown is the accelerator the HIG recommend for the Gnome desktop. > I was planning on adding a keybinding based off it > (C-A-PageUp/PageDown) for Metacity for multiscreen (non-xinerama) > users to switch the focus between screens (see bug 101659). So, I'd > say it's becoming fairly common. Before doing that remember that Ctrl+Alt+PageUp/PageDown is the fallback shortcut for switching tabs that is used when Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown is not available. It's stated in the HIG (iirc) and is used, for instance, by gedit. > Would be nice if there were even > greater consistency among apps in this area (gedit, for example, > doesn't play along and it took me a while to figure out the > keybinding). Gedit suffers the same problem than Bill's software: the Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown key combination is eaten by GtkTextView, at Gtk level (for going to the next/previous paragraph, iirc). The actual accelerator will be more discoverable in further gedit versions since there is now a menu entry for switching tab (as there is one in epiphany, for instance) From lool+gnome@via.ecp.fr Thu Jun 8 15:47:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 617B03B04B1 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 15:47:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00800-04 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 15:47:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx0.bpl-group.org (mx0.bpl-group.org [195.115.71.69]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D15523B0766 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 15:47:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bee.dooz.org (levallois.dooz.org [81.57.180.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "lminier.people.bpl-group.org", Issuer "BPL Group People Certification Authority" (verified OK)) by mx0.bpl-group.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BDAEC4C9; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 21:47:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: by bee.dooz.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4E5D24F02FA; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 21:47:22 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 21:47:22 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lo=EFc?= Minier To: usability@gnome.org, 371882@bugs.debian.org Message-ID: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.575 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.024, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.575 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 19:47:33 -0000 Hi, Michael Gilbert (michael.s.gilbert -at- gmail.com) explained his experience when introducing GNOME to people otherwise running Windows in Debian bug http://bugs.debian.org/371882: """ at work the other day a couple windows-locked coworkers of mine were attempting to use a fedora system. they were attempting to figure out if a particular application was available on the system. they had no idea where to go to do a file search (they expected it to be in the start menu, but gave up after they found it wasn't under applications). so then they tried nautilus, but couldn't figure out where to go. they dropped down to / where they were even more dumbfounded. a comment was "what are all these directories and how am i supposed to find anything in this mess." i suggested looking in /usr/local and /opt but both came up empty. i suggested that they try the search under the gnome places menu, at which point they were able to find some similarity to their expectations. at first they used the defaults and only searched in their home directory (inadvertently assuming that the file must not be on the disk even though their search path was too limited), at which point i said you should search from the / directory. they opened the gnome file selector, and could not figure out how to pick / (in fact they didn't understand the concept of /, or how it relates to something like c:). i also didn't know how to select / directly from the gnome file selector this, but eventually figured out if you select the topmost directory breakout at the top of the file selector that you will get / as your selection. this is very non-obvious and needs to be fixed. so they tried their search, which completed *way* too fast for their expectations (likely because they are used to windows searches taking significant time to search an entire disk because file lists are not cached as scrollkeeper does). so i did a "find / | grep fname" which also came up empty to indicate to them that indeed the file they were looking for was not on the system. at one point another comment was "it seems like they do things differently just to be different," referring to the gnome desktop in general vs windows. anyway, hope you can find some useful bits from the mindset virgin gnome users. need more details? just ask. """ I initially tried opening a discussion at , but was suggested that this list would be a better place. (Please keep 371882@bdo in copy and add 371882-submitter@bdo if you want to copy Michael Gilbert.) Bye, -- Loïc Minier From bjourne@gmail.com Fri Jun 9 11:32:25 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E57533B0147 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:32:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02538-08 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:32:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.207]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E55FB3B02F7 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:32:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so654060wxd for ; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 08:32:21 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=McMsr9UbsQrkheYyfxiAcapOm/Xuc8Of7xlng/xz9cIKh1tbNMbqtyQLEGG11aQZzS4UMFABCCwUeMApOsqGEyjlKyNjv31WRTSfb8ug64jiJ6+CK1KrhYm1K4yxwDY7xqzGIerl00hQwi6n43htIWUBOSyNAcATL6NHQDUEG4A= Received: by 10.70.62.1 with SMTP id k1mr3581069wxa; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 08:32:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.115.6 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 08:32:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:32:19 +0200 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?BJ=F6rn_Lindqvist?=" To: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs In-Reply-To: <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.496 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.027, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001, TW_MV=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.496 X-Spam-Level: Cc: X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 15:32:25 -0000 > Gedit suffers the same problem than Bill's software: the > Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown key combination is eaten by GtkTextView, at Gtk > level (for going to the next/previous paragraph, iirc). The actual Wouldn't the right solution then be to fix GtkTextView so that it doesn't steal Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown? --=20 mvh Bj=F6rn From gnome-Usability@m.gmane.org Fri Jun 9 11:50:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 009143B032D for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:50:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03783-02 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:50:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE4163B024A for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:50:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1FojFO-00052n-5Z for Usability@gnome.org; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 17:50:06 +0200 Received: from h-68-165-4-198.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.4.198]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 17:50:06 +0200 Received: from wohler by h-68-165-4-198.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 17:50:06 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: Usability@gnome.org From: Bill Wohler Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 08:49:10 -0700 Organization: Newt Software Lines: 15 Message-ID: <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: h-68-165-4-198.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:rY1IfAkLd+KrTmPRanzn/dE9Bdc= Sender: news X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: [Usability] Re: Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 15:50:33 -0000 "BJörn Lindqvist" writes: >> Gedit suffers the same problem than Bill's software: the >> Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown key combination is eaten by GtkTextView, at Gtk >> level (for going to the next/previous paragraph, iirc). The actual > > Wouldn't the right solution then be to fix GtkTextView so that it > doesn't steal Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown? And GtkTreeView and possibly others. That's what I was thinking. Doable? -- Bill Wohler http://www.newt.com/wohler/ GnuPG ID:610BD9AD Maintainer of comp.mail.mh FAQ and MH-E. If you're passed on the right, you're in the wrong lane. From Calum.Benson@Sun.COM Fri Jun 9 11:59:21 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D20323B02F7 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:59:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04251-01 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:59:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD6AD3B024A for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:59:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-01.sun.com ([192.18.2.111]) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k59FxGjj008284 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:59:18 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-01.sun.com by d1-emea-01.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0L00D01NQKYK00@d1-emea-01.sun.com> (original mail from Calum.Benson@Sun.COM) for Usability@gnome.org; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:59:16 +0100 (BST) Received: from vpn-129-150-116-25.UK.Sun.COM ([129.150.116.25]) by d1-emea-01.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0L008BXOER2330@d1-emea-01.sun.com>; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:59:16 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:59:14 +0100 From: Calum Benson Subject: Re: [Usability] Re: Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs In-reply-to: <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> Sender: Calum.Benson@Sun.COM To: Bill Wohler Message-id: <1149868755.7852.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Organization: Sun Microsystems Ireland Ltd. MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.582 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.582 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 15:59:22 -0000 On Fri, 2006-06-09 at 08:49 -0700, Bill Wohler wrote: > "BJörn Lindqvist" writes: > > >> Gedit suffers the same problem than Bill's software: the > >> Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown key combination is eaten by GtkTextView, at Gtk > >> level (for going to the next/previous paragraph, iirc). The actual > > > > Wouldn't the right solution then be to fix GtkTextView so that it > > doesn't steal Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown? > > And GtkTreeView and possibly others. That's what I was thinking. Doable? More than likely, but only if you can suggest alternative keybindings for those existing TextView/TreeView functions that are sufficiently consistent/discoverable. Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:calum.benson@sun.com Java Desktop System Group http://ie.sun.com +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems From gnome-Usability@m.gmane.org Fri Jun 9 12:19:37 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ECF33B1112 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 12:19:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05786-06 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 12:19:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FC813B1120 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 12:19:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1FojhH-0003Ev-L0 for Usability@gnome.org; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 18:18:55 +0200 Received: from h-68-165-4-198.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.4.198]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 18:18:55 +0200 Received: from wohler by h-68-165-4-198.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 18:18:55 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: Usability@gnome.org From: Bill Wohler Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 09:18:45 -0700 Organization: Newt Software Lines: 27 Message-ID: <87slme715m.fsf@olgas.newt.com> References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <1149868755.7852.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: h-68-165-4-198.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:BstvWzstfMaA5FgcQdtcEdthMak= Sender: news X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.597 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.004, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.597 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: [Usability] Re: Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:19:37 -0000 Calum Benson writes: > On Fri, 2006-06-09 at 08:49 -0700, Bill Wohler wrote: >> "BJörn Lindqvist" writes: >> >> >> Gedit suffers the same problem than Bill's software: the >> >> Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown key combination is eaten by GtkTextView, at Gtk >> >> level (for going to the next/previous paragraph, iirc). The actual >> > >> > Wouldn't the right solution then be to fix GtkTextView so that it >> > doesn't steal Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown? >> >> And GtkTreeView and possibly others. That's what I was thinking. Doable? > > More than likely, but only if you can suggest alternative keybindings > for those existing TextView/TreeView functions that are sufficiently > consistent/discoverable. Well, I tried C-PageUp/Down in the GtkTreeView widget (in GnuCash), and I have no idea what it's doing. It's sort of like PageUp/Down, but it doesn't move the screen the same amount. Suffice to say, I would not mourn its loss. -- Bill Wohler http://www.newt.com/wohler/ GnuPG ID:610BD9AD Maintainer of comp.mail.mh FAQ and MH-E. If you're passed on the right, you're in the wrong lane. From mpt@myrealbox.com Fri Jun 9 16:56:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC7DA3B01AB for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:56:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20116-10 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:56:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from leucothea.redline.site5.com (leucothea.redline.site5.com [216.118.97.161]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11A453B0122 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:56:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ool-44c0bc13.dyn.optonline.net ([68.192.188.19] helo=[192.168.0.5]) by leucothea.redline.site5.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.52) id 1Foo1c-00028w-53; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:56:12 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> References: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Matthew Paul Thomas Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:38:35 -0400 To: Gnome usability X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.623) X-Antivirus-Scanner: This message has been scanned by ClamAV. X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - leucothea.redline.site5.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnome.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - myrealbox.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Cc: michael.s.gilbert@gmail.com X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 20:56:18 -0000 On Jun 8, 2006, at 3:47 PM, Lo=EFc Minier wrote: > ... > """ > at work the other day a couple windows-locked coworkers of mine were > attempting to use a fedora system. they were attempting to figure out > if a particular application was available on the system. they had no > idea where to go to do a file search (they expected it to be in the > start menu, but gave up after they found it wasn't under = applications). Hardly surprising: a file search definitely isn't a "place". It's not=20 an application either, but at least "Applications" looks vaguely like a=20= Start menu. > so then they tried nautilus, but couldn't figure out where to go. =20 > they dropped down to / where they were even more dumbfounded. a=20 > comment was "what are all these directories and how am i supposed to=20= > find anything in this mess." That problem will continue until Fedora begins using human-readable=20 directory names (like GoboLinux, Mac OS, and Windows all do to varying=20= extents). > ... > i suggested that they try the search under the gnome places menu, at > which point they were able to find some similarity to their > expectations. at first they used the defaults and only searched in > their home directory (inadvertently assuming that the file must not be > on the disk even though their search path was too limited), Again, they were right and the OS was wrong. The default should be to=20 search everything you can access, just like in Web search engines,=20 because (a) you are likely to be searching for programs, which usually=20= aren't in your home folder, and (b) searching everything will usually=20 be quicker (as you suggested later) than choosing a correct scope then=20= searching within that. > at which point i said you should search from the / directory. they=20 > opened the gnome file selector, and could not figure out how to pick /=20= > (in fact they didn't understand the concept of /, or how it relates to=20= > something like c:). i also didn't know how to select / directly from=20= > the gnome file selector this, but eventually figured out if you select=20= > the topmost directory breakout at the top of the file selector that=20= > you will get / as your selection. this is very non-obvious and needs=20= > to be fixed. Fortunately the dialog doesn't use the inscrutable "/" terminology, but=20= "File System" isn't much better, and the icon for it seems to be a=20 harmonica. Unfortunately there isn't really any good name for=20 "collection of obscurely-named things that has your files hidden in it=20= somewhere, and your programs in it spread across several other places,=20= but which can't be called your hard disk because it has your other=20 drives hidden inside it too". > so they tried their search, which completed *way* too fast for their > expectations (likely because they are used to windows searches taking > significant time to search an entire disk because file lists are not > cached as scrollkeeper does). > ... This is a bug in that while the Find tool tells you "No files found",=20 it does not mention what it was searching for, so there is no way to=20 distinguish between a search that has finished with no results and one=20= that hasn't started yet. Thanks for your interesting report. --=20 Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/= From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Sun Jun 11 11:05:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C6083B0088 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 11:05:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15678-04 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 11:05:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AB3C83B0084 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 11:05:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 11 Jun 2006 16:04:32 +0100 (BST) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 16:04:32 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lo=EFc?= Minier Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" In-Reply-To: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> Message-ID: References: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 15:05:20 -0000 On Thu, 8 Jun 2006, [iso-8859-1] Lo=EFc Minier wrote: > Michael Gilbert (michael.s.gilbert -at- gmail.com) explained his > experience when introducing GNOME to people otherwise running Windows in > Debian bug http://bugs.debian.org/371882: > """ > at work the other day a couple windows-locked coworkers of mine were > attempting to use a fedora system. they were attempting to figure out > if a particular application was available on the system. I do think things would be easier for windows users (in fact easier than windows) if Gnome were using a single main menu on the bottom left corner which is what Novell are doing. Strangely enough it was Novell/Ximian who proposed the two panel layout in the first place even though they have since abandoned it (this was discussed quite recently but I dont expect the two panel layout to go away anytime soon). The run dialog can be useful in this case. If you know the application name and type it in then if it is installed the icon will appear in the dialog and when you hit okay the application will run. If you do not know the application name (why not?) the run dialog (or some versions of it at least) have an expander which opens to show a flat list of available applications. I cannot say about Debian but while using Ubuntu I did notice I sometimes applications do not appear in menus right after you install them but a logout and log back in usually sorts that out. I'm trying to think why you might need to search for these applications in the first place rather than choose from what is available in the menus. A package manager like Synaptic might be a good way to check what programs are installed, it also includes a search tool. > idea where to go to do a file search (they expected it to be in the > start menu, but gave up after they found it wasn't under applications). A file search is intended for documents and other user files If you are looking for programs you are not expected to use the file search. > so then they tried nautilus, but couldn't figure out where to go. they > dropped down to / where they were even more dumbfounded. a comment was > "what are all these directories and how am i supposed to find anything > in this mess." Not much change from Microsoft then. ;P > i suggested looking in /usr/local and /opt but both came up empty. If you have given up on the Desktop and had to resort to the command line then a good way to find things is using the "locate" utitlity. When hunting for programs the command "apropos" can be very useful too (especially on BSD where the man pages are better). > i suggested that they try the search under the gnome places menu, at > which point they were able to find some similarity to their > expectations. at first they used the defaults and only searched in > their home directory (inadvertently assuming that the file must not be > on the disk even though their search path was too limited), at which > point i said you should search from the / directory. they opened the > gnome file selector, and could not figure out how to pick / (in fact > they didn't understand the concept of /, or how it relates to something > like c:). i also didn't know how to select / directly from the gnome > file selector this, but eventually figured out if you select the topmost > directory breakout at the top of the file selector that you will get / > as your selection. this is very non-obvious and needs to be fixed. so > they tried their search, which completed *way* too fast for their > expectations (likely because they are used to windows searches taking > significant time to search an entire disk because file lists are not > cached as scrollkeeper does). so i did a "find / | grep fname" which > also came up empty to indicate to them that indeed the file they were > looking for was not on the system. > > at one point another comment was "it seems like they do things > differently just to be different," referring to the gnome desktop in > general vs windows. *cough* *cough* splutter! Understatement. Things have gotten better and are getting better all the time, file bugs where you see them. At least horrible anachronisms like the "Druid dialogs" are on the way out (that really was a case of being different from Wizards just for the sake of being different). Sincerely Alan Horkan Inkscape http://inkscape.org Abiword http://www.abisource.com Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/ From Calum.Benson@Sun.COM Tue Jun 13 12:08:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B31DC3B000A for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:08:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29211-06 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:08:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0934E3B000C for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:08:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-10.sun.com (d1-emea-10.sun.com [192.18.2.120] (may be forged)) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5DG73iU003213 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:07:03 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-10.sun.com by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0T00B013ET6M00@d1-emea-10.sun.com> (original mail from Calum.Benson@Sun.COM) for Usability@gnome.org; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:07:03 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([129.150.116.239]) by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0T00H9Z3FRHT70@d1-emea-10.sun.com>; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:07:03 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:06:57 +0100 From: Calum Benson Subject: Re: [Usability] Re: Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs In-reply-to: <17538.1149869665@olgas.newt.com> Sender: Calum.Benson@Sun.COM To: Bill Wohler Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <1149868755.7852.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <17538.1149869665@olgas.newt.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.582 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.582 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 16:08:13 -0000 On 9 Jun 2006, at 17:14, Bill Wohler wrote: > > Well, I tried C-PageUp/Down in the GtkTreeView widget (in GnuCash), > and > I have no idea what it's doing. In a tree view, Ctrl+PgUp/PgDn should be moving focus to the item at the top or bottom of the current view; in other controls, it's the shortcut for scrolling left/right: http://www.gnome.org/learn/access-guide/latest/keynav-23.html#keynav-35 If it's doing something else, it's either a bug, or it's been over- ridden by a developer who thinks they know better :) Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:calum.benson@sun.com Java Desktop System Team http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems From Calum.Benson@Sun.COM Wed Jun 14 13:26:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F32D3B0156 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 13:26:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26510-02 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 13:26:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60F1D3B0135 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 13:26:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-02.sun.com (d1-emea-02.sun.com [192.18.2.112] (may be forged)) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5EHPMb5010739 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 18:25:22 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-02.sun.com by d1-emea-02.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0V00K011HFZ600@d1-emea-02.sun.com> (original mail from Calum.Benson@Sun.COM) for Usability@gnome.org; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 18:25:22 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([129.150.116.135]) by d1-emea-02.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0V00FZN1Q9TE10@d1-emea-02.sun.com>; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 18:25:22 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 18:25:16 +0100 From: Calum Benson In-reply-to: <3515.1150215756@olgas.newt.com> Sender: Calum.Benson@Sun.COM To: Bill Wohler Message-id: <645F3922-742E-4B5E-8D69-37D56C69E503@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <1149868755.7852.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <17538.1149869665@olgas.newt.com> <3515.1150215756@olgas.newt.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.583 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.015, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.583 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 17:26:46 -0000 On 13 Jun 2006, at 17:22, Bill Wohler wrote: > Calum Benson wrote: > >> On 9 Jun 2006, at 17:14, Bill Wohler wrote: >>> >>> Well, I tried C-PageUp/Down in the GtkTreeView widget (in GnuCash), >>> and I have no idea what it's doing. >> >> In a tree view, Ctrl+PgUp/PgDn should be moving focus to the item at >> the top or bottom of the current view; in other controls, it's the >> shortcut for scrolling left/right: >> >> http://www.gnome.org/learn/access-guide/latest/ >> keynav-23.html#keynav-35 >> >> If it's doing something else, it's either a bug, or it's been over- >> ridden by a developer who thinks they know better :) > > Thanks, Calum. Well, that's not what I'm seeing. A GnuCash developer > told me that he wouldn't overwrite the GtkTreeView bindings to allow > C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs so it's unlikely that it has been > overridden. A puzzler indeed. I'll mention this to the developers. > > I still think that the HIG should specify C-PageUp/Down for moving > between tabs and that other widgets should not use this binding. I'd agree that this has been a bugbear long enough that we should probably try a bit harder to fix it properly. The controls that use Ctrl+PgUp/PgDn just to move focus could possibly just do without (by default, at least); you can always hit Ctrl+up/down a few times instead. The ones that use them for scrolling left/right might be trickier, but I'll need to try and put together a complete list before I try and figure something out. Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:calum.benson@sun.com Java Desktop System Team http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems From michael.s.gilbert@gmail.com Fri Jun 16 22:20:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D0D43B033A for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2006 22:20:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32034-02 for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2006 22:20:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.196]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC9A03B02DB for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2006 22:20:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id h29so524273wxd for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2006 19:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.52.10 with SMTP id z10mr4997505wxz; Fri, 16 Jun 2006 19:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.65.5 with HTTP; Fri, 16 Jun 2006 19:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <8e2a98be0606161919x9a20c7dld5fc3a4715960f2b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 22:19:21 -0400 From: "Michael Gilbert" To: horkana@maths.tcd.ie In-Reply-To: <8e2a98be0606161901j5c6edfdcj3acd734a2ee19751@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> <8e2a98be0606111426w7d6407fdj68c34573295b317@mail.gmail.com> <8e2a98be0606161901j5c6edfdcj3acd734a2ee19751@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 09:59:24 -0400 Cc: usability@gnome.org, 371882@bugs.debian.org Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 02:20:40 -0000 Alan Horkan wrote: >The run dialog can be useful in this case. If you know the application >name and type it in then if it is installed the icon will appear in the >dialog and when you hit okay the application will run. If you do not know >the application name (why not?) the run dialog (or some versions of it at >least) have an expander which opens to show a flat list of available >applications. The users were having trouble finding a "find files" application in the applications menu. The did not even attempt to find the program they were looking for in the applications menu. >A package manager like Synaptic might be a good way to check what programs >are installed, it also includes a search tool. Synaptic is a confusing mess. If I were a new user, I would totally avoid it. I still avoid it...but only because I apt-get is so much easier and direct. > A file search is intended for documents and other user files > If you are looking for programs you are not expected to use the file > search. I don't think we should be in the game of telling the user how she is to use her computer. We should be making it as intuitive and broadly useful for the user to user her computer. If she expects to search for executables or system files (due to her poor os upbringing) then it should be perfectly reasonable and obvious for her to do so. we should not be forcing anyone to learn the unix way (find and locate). well maybe it would be useful for the find dialog to say something like, this is what i'm doing 'find / 2>/dev/null | grep fname' click here to learn more about how to use the power of the unix shell to enhance your computing expertise. thanks you for your thoughts. mike From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Sun Jun 18 13:08:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A9E93B0BF5 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 13:08:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04550-02 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 13:08:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 128B53B00B2 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 13:08:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 18 Jun 2006 18:07:14 +0100 (BST) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 18:07:14 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <8e2a98be0606161919x9a20c7dld5fc3a4715960f2b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: References: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> <8e2a98be0606111426w7d6407fdj68c34573295b317@mail.gmail.com> <8e2a98be0606161901j5c6edfdcj3acd734a2ee19751@mail.gmail.com> <8e2a98be0606161919x9a20c7dld5fc3a4715960f2b@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 17:08:12 -0000 [Removed CC's.] On Fri, 16 Jun 2006, Michael Gilbert wrote: > Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 22:19:21 -0400 > From: Michael Gilbert > To: horkana@maths.tcd.ie > Cc: 371882@bugs.debian.org, usability@gnome.org > Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes > with gnome virgins" > > Alan Horkan wrote: > >The run dialog can be useful in this case. If you know the application > >name and type it in then if it is installed the icon will appear in the > >dialog and when you hit okay the application will run. If you do not know > >the application name (why not?) the run dialog (or some versions of it at > >least) have an expander which opens to show a flat list of available > >applications. > > The users were having trouble finding a "find files" application in > the applications menu. The did not even attempt to find the program > they were looking for in the applications menu. Accomodating users is one thing but it is difficult to help users who are unwilling to even look through the Applications menu. Having said that Novell have their own redesigned setup (which may already be available) which does in fact include a search widget directly in the main menu. Mockups can be seen here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/gamehack/sets/1506658/ > >A package manager like Synaptic might be a good way to check what programs > >are installed, it also includes a search tool. > > Synaptic is a confusing mess. I see you added Debian to the CC list, since Synaptic is a Debian only program not Gnome I will let them comment. > avoid it. I still avoid it...but only because I apt-get is so much > easier and direct. Ubuntu inlcude a simpler frontend to Synaptic which makes things easier for basic adding and removing of programs, you might want to try it. > > A file search is intended for documents and other user files > > > If you are looking for programs you are not expected to use the file > > search. > > I don't think we should be in the game of telling the user how she is > to use her computer. I dont disagree. I was describing how thing are and how best to work around them rather than the ideal situation. The _intention_ of the designers was that find tool would be for finding documents rather than programs. > We should be making it as intuitive and broadly useful for the user to > user her computer. If she expects to search for executables or system > files (due to her poor os upbringing) then it should be perfectly > reasonable and obvious for her to do so. we should not be forcing > anyone to learn the unix way (find and locate). Since you had already given up on the graphical user interface I was explaining how to get more out of the command line, I would not have mentioned it otherwise and I believe if a user feels like they "need" to user the command line the real issue is the Desktop needs to be improved. > well maybe it would be useful for the find dialog to say something like, > this is what i'm doing 'find / 2>/dev/null | grep fname' click here to It is good to try and find ways to reduce the learning curve of the command line but I'm not sure this idea would really work well as part of the graphical user interface. I do think it would be great to have a page in the documentation of the Find tool explaining or introducing the command line alternatives. > learn more about how to use the power of the unix shell to enhance your > computing expertise. > > thanks you for your thoughts. Sincerely Alan Horkan Inkscape http://inkscape.org Abiword http://www.abisource.com Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/ From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Mon Jun 19 02:45:53 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C6963B0D43 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 02:45:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28820-04 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 02:45:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.203]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3E4573B0DC0 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 02:45:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 55516 invoked by uid 60001); 19 Jun 2006 06:45:00 -0000 Message-ID: <20060619064500.55514.qmail@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.215.111.236] by web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 07:45:00 BST Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 07:45:00 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Alan Horkan In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.667 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.715, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.667 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 06:45:53 -0000 --- Alan Horkan wrote: > It is good to try and find ways to reduce the > learning curve of the > command line but I'm not sure this idea would really > work well as part of > the graphical user interface. I do think it would > be great to have a page > in the documentation of the Find tool explaining or > introducing the > command line alternatives. I think the find tool docs briefly mention which unix commands are used behind the GUI. However, is the find tool made redundant by the new Nautilus searching? And if not, how are the two meant to work together? ___________________________________________________________ Try the all-new Yahoo! Mail. "The New Version is radically easier to use" – The Wall Street Journal http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Mon Jun 19 18:53:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC2903B02BD for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 18:53:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05746-09 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 18:53:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 653113B0105 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 18:53:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 19 Jun 2006 23:51:42 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 23:51:41 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20060619064500.55514.qmail@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: References: <20060619064500.55514.qmail@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:53:07 -0000 On Mon, 19 Jun 2006, Joachim Noreiko wrote: > > be great to have a page > > in the documentation of the Find tool explaining or > > introducing the > > command line alternatives. > > I think the find tool docs briefly mention which unix > commands are used behind the GUI. good to know > However, is the find tool made redundant by the new > Nautilus searching? And if not, how are the two meant > to work together? I doubt it. I'd expect the find tool to include more advanced options and for the built in tool to keep it simple. There might also be issues with the underlying technologies (Beagle?). I don't know for sure. -- Alan H. From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Tue Jun 20 03:34:38 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81B703B027D for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 03:34:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32616-04 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 03:34:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.202]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AA7EC3B0279 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 03:34:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 32953 invoked by uid 60001); 20 Jun 2006 07:33:12 -0000 Message-ID: <20060620073312.32951.qmail@web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.203.12.149] by web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:33:12 BST Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:33:12 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Alan Horkan In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.471 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.519, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.471 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: [Usability] Two types of find (Was: search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins") X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 07:34:38 -0000 --- Alan Horkan wrote: > > > However, is the find tool made redundant by the > new > > Nautilus searching? And if not, how are the two > meant > > to work together? > > I doubt it. I'd expect the find tool to include > more advanced options and > for the built in tool to keep it simple. There > might also be issues > with the underlying technologies (Beagle?). I don't > know for sure. Sure, I can see that operationally there are reasons to have both tool. But with our user hats on for a second -- why are there two find tools, accessed in different ways, with different-looking interfaces? It's confusing, and doesn't give off the joined-up feel that GNOME should have. So -- how can we join them up? ___________________________________________________________ The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html From mystilleef@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:03:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1667E3B058E for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:03:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10655-07 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:03:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.173]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D3AD3B0584 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:03:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id o2so3184611uge for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:03:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.67.103.7 with SMTP id f7mr3463065ugm; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:03:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.15 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:03:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:03:43 -0400 From: Mystilleef To: Usability@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.647 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.605, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.558, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.647 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:03:48 -0000 Hello, My application is a GUI designed especially for GNOME. Thus, when my application is launched, I register it with the GNOME libraries and then instruct the kernel to create a separate process for the application. The procedure is called forking. The effect of this is that when my application is launched from a shell terminal, the kernel detaches it from the shell terminal's process, therefore making the application run in its own process. Apparently, this has offended some geeks who argue I am breaking some pointless UNIX convention. Their argument is that most (GNOME) applications do not detach from the shell terminal when run from it. And by detaching from the terminal, not only am I creating inconsistencies, but also creating an element of surprise. My response is that this behavior is a hold back from the days when UNIX had no GUI and when almost all applications that ran on it were console applications. The only environment a console application can run in is in a shell environment. That is why console applications have every right to "hug" the shell terminal. Also blocking the shell terminal is the only way console applications can recieve input from users. Graphic user applications, especially the ones designed for "desktop environments" have virtually no reason to be bound to a shell terminal's process. In particular, the only environment a GNOME application should be bound to is the GNOME desktop environment. And I believe you do that by registering with the GNOME and/or freedesktop libraries. In fact, I argue it is bad practice for GUI applications to be bound to a shell terminals process because if the terminal's process dies for any reason the application(s) bound to that terminal dies along with it. In my early linux years, I have lost documents this way. I launched several via the shell terminal, and then I forgetfully or accidentally close the shell terminal's window. Miraculously, all my applications disappear. Also, most graphic user applications are not console applications and as such the life-cycle of such applications should not be determined or controlled or constrained by shell terminal's process running in the sight of users that can easily be killed accidentally or otherwise. The geeks' counter responses ranged from questioning my competence as a shell terminal user, to suggestions to reconfigure my shell properties, to changing my shell environment, to connecting my application to the kernel's KILL signal so it can save its state before dying, among several funny comments. In fact, there's only one reason to provide an option for not detaching. Some console applications may need to pipe their result to my application. And my application needs to be connected to the shell's process for that to be happen successfully. There are many other silly UNIX conventions that are a hold back from yesteryears which bite us in the behind today. I recommend the "UNIX Haters Handbook" for an exhaustive listing. Yet many people religiously clinge to them without reason. I feel this issue is one them. Is it advisable to encourage developers via the HIG to avoid hugging the terminal. I mean, apart from the fact that it is just pointless especially for GUI apps, there's also the possibility of losing applications bound to the terminal's process when the terminal quits for whatever reasons. And why on earth would anyone want to bind a GUI app to the process of another user visible application? I bring this up here because the geeks say I am trying to "fix" the problem the wrong way. They insist that the problem, if at all it is one should be "fixed" at a global level outside my application. I'm guessing perhaps at a library level. So, I welcome your comments and thought on the issue. My opinion is that the default behavior for GUI applications, GNOME in particular, is to detach from the shell terminal, while an option to prevent detachment should be provided for those who need it. A positive side effect of my suggestion is that it frees the terminal to be used by other applications designed for terminal usage. Cheers From mike@mike-burns.com Tue Jun 20 16:18:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C7FF3B0073 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:18:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11690-09 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:18:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mike-burns.com (mike-burns.com [64.105.111.66]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D9DC3B03DC for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:18:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mike by mike-burns.com with local (Exim 4.61 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1FsmgE-000I4J-6W; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:18:34 -0400 Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:18:34 -0400 From: Mike Burns To: Mystilleef Message-ID: <20060620201834.GA68180@gaping.mike-burns.com> Mail-Followup-To: Mystilleef , Usability@gnome.org References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:18:47 -0000 On 2006-06-20 16.03.43 -0400, Mystilleef wrote: > Graphic user applications, especially the ones designed for "desktop > environments" have virtually no reason to be bound to a shell terminal's > process. How many users who run the program in question run it from the terminal instead of the applications menu, panel, Alt+F2, or a hotkey? How many who run it from the terminal aren't shell experts who know about stuff like '&'? -- Mike Burns mike@mike-burns.com http://mike-burns.com From mystilleef@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:32:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E672F3B00B7 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:32:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12123-10 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:32:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.203]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59AB63B0155 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:32:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id t12so532169wxc for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.126.15 with SMTP id y15mr11029362wxc; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:32:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.15 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:32:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9605403b0606201332r169394a3mdad3a6a12da9115f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:32:14 -0400 From: Mystilleef To: Mystilleef , Usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20060620201834.GA68180@gaping.mike-burns.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <20060620201834.GA68180@gaping.mike-burns.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.256 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.344, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.256 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:32:18 -0000 I can't really say how many users run it from the terminal or from the menu. But it seems a few do run it from the terminal. Of course, on UNIX -like systems it is not uncommon to run applications from the terminal. And depending on your shell environment "&" does not detach applications from the shell's process. Apparently, for BASH, there is "disown" command for that. But I don't believe proficiency in BASH or shell wizardry should be a requirement for using applications designed for GNOME. On 6/20/06, Mike Burns wrote: > On 2006-06-20 16.03.43 -0400, Mystilleef wrote: > > Graphic user applications, especially the ones designed for "desktop > > environments" have virtually no reason to be bound to a shell terminal's > > process. > > How many users who run the program in question run it from the terminal > instead of the applications menu, panel, Alt+F2, or a hotkey? How many who > run it from the terminal aren't shell experts who know about stuff like '&'? > > -- > Mike Burns mike@mike-burns.com http://mike-burns.com > From alleykat@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:34:14 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A4B23B00B7 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:34:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12708-01 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:34:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.206]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A35193B009C for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:34:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 9so2684307nzo for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.12.45 with SMTP id p45mr9469143nzi; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.252.20 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:34:11 -0500 From: "Travis Watkins" To: Mystilleef In-Reply-To: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.379 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.221, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.379 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:34:14 -0000 On 6/20/06, Mystilleef wrote: > Graphic user applications, especially the ones designed for "desktop > environments" have virtually no reason to be bound to a shell terminal's > process. How are we supposed to get the debug output from those GNOME libraries you use? -- Travis Watkins http://www.realistanew.com From mystilleef@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:41:17 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BA943B0280 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:41:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13017-03 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:41:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.201]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEA573B01AF for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:41:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id h29so1020572wxd for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.52.10 with SMTP id z10mr11092861wxz; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:41:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.15 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:41:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9605403b0606201341w12b56135o2b6da3fd50709fa9@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:41:10 -0400 From: Mystilleef To: Usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <9605403b0606201339k12f232dfl57e73b92b2ee2cf5@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <9605403b0606201339k12f232dfl57e73b92b2ee2cf5@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.331 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.269, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.331 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Usability] Fwd: GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:41:17 -0000 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Mystilleef Date: Jun 20, 2006 4:39 PM Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment To: Travis Watkins On 6/20/06, Travis Watkins wrote: > On 6/20/06, Mystilleef wrote: > > Graphic user applications, especially the ones designed for "desktop > > environments" have virtually no reason to be bound to a shell terminal's > > process. > > How are we supposed to get the debug output from those GNOME libraries you use? > > -- > Travis Watkins > http://www.realistanew.com > You can print to stderr, which will display the debug output in the terminal the application was launched in, or you can print to a log file. Or maybe I didn't understand the question well enough? From mystilleef@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:45:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 130903B041C for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:45:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13208-05 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:45:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.198]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFC9C3B041A for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:45:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id t12so100wxc for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.24.3 with SMTP id 3mr11074250wxx; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.15 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9605403b0606201344s4adf74d5l893e43b608b993ba@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:44:52 -0400 From: Mystilleef To: "Travis Watkins" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <9605403b0606201339k12f232dfl57e73b92b2ee2cf5@mail.gmail.com> <9605403b0606201341w12b56135o2b6da3fd50709fa9@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.384 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.216, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.384 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Fwd: GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:45:20 -0000 On 6/20/06, Travis Watkins wrote: > On 6/20/06, Mystilleef wrote: > > You can print to stderr, which will display the debug output in the > > terminal the application was launched in, or you can print to a log > > file. Or maybe I didn't understand the question well enough? > > If you've separated from the terminal does outputting to stderr still > send output to said terminal? > > -- > Travis Watkins > http://www.realistanew.com > Yes, it does. From alleykat@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:50:05 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 374563B053D for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:50:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13567-03 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.195]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59FD03B04FC for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 16so1448nzp for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:50:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.91.2 with SMTP id o2mr3791224nzb; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:43:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.252.20 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:43:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:43:55 -0500 From: "Travis Watkins" To: Mystilleef In-Reply-To: <9605403b0606201341w12b56135o2b6da3fd50709fa9@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <9605403b0606201339k12f232dfl57e73b92b2ee2cf5@mail.gmail.com> <9605403b0606201341w12b56135o2b6da3fd50709fa9@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.384 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.216, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.384 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Fwd: GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:50:05 -0000 On 6/20/06, Mystilleef wrote: > You can print to stderr, which will display the debug output in the > terminal the application was launched in, or you can print to a log > file. Or maybe I didn't understand the question well enough? If you've separated from the terminal does outputting to stderr still send output to said terminal? -- Travis Watkins http://www.realistanew.com From ross@burtonini.com Wed Jun 21 04:29:05 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A27E93B0821 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:29:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21500-06 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:28:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65EB43B002A for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:28:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from burtonini.com (althur.gotadsl.co.uk [84.12.135.175]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBDB028C6D7; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:28:40 +0100 (BST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (ident=unknown) by burtonini.com with esmtp (masqmail 0.2.21) id 1Fsy4m-51o-00; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:28:40 +0100 From: Ross Burton To: Mystilleef In-Reply-To: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-hHw0K+ovPQXh+ENRGLBc" Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:28:40 +0100 Message-Id: <1150878520.12957.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.457 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.457 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:29:05 -0000 --=-hHw0K+ovPQXh+ENRGLBc Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 2006-06-20 at 16:03 -0400, Mystilleef wrote: > My application is a GUI designed especially for GNOME. Thus, when my > application is launched, I register it with the GNOME libraries and then > instruct the kernel to create a separate process for the application. > The procedure is called forking. The effect of this is that when my > application is launched from a shell terminal, the kernel detaches it > from the shell terminal's process, therefore making the application run > in its own process. There are plenty of situations where this behaviour is exactly not what I want, and not forking doesn't hurt anyone. The panel, run dialog and so on spawn processes so they are not bound to anything (you can demonstrate this by running a program from the panel and then killing the panel). Primary use case for not forking is that it makes it trivial to write a script that launches a program, user does something in it, and then the script can continue when the program has exited. If Gedit forked when it started I wouldn't be able to use it as $EDITOR in cvs commit for example. Why break this use case because you think that forking is useful, when to the average user there is no difference and to the terminal-using folks not forking is very useful at times. Yes, if you start a number of not-forking processes from a terminal and then close the terminal without disowning them they will also die. Luckily the users who will start a program from a terminal are advanced enough to know that happens[1]. Ross [1] In other news this week was the first time I got a bug report from a Sound Juicer user who when I asked "run SJ in a terminal and paste the output" asked "what's a terminal?". Yay non-geek users! --=20 Ross Burton mail: ross@burtonini.com jabber: ross@burtonini.com www: http://www.burtonini.com./ PGP Fingerprint: 1A21 F5B0 D8D0 CFE3 81D4 E25A 2D09 E447 D0B4 33DF --=-hHw0K+ovPQXh+ENRGLBc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEmQM3LQnkR9C0M98RAjA/AJ48sqixMzGp90lHwkoSZEEzzHYr0wCfaOyk 8c218P3Pjd0fJjEh3Od2p0s= =F/45 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-hHw0K+ovPQXh+ENRGLBc-- From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Wed Jun 21 04:49:23 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67FE13B07CA for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:49:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22910-06 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:49:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.203]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4F3AD3B04EA for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:49:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 38857 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Jun 2006 08:49:21 -0000 Message-ID: <20060621084921.38855.qmail@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.141.171.15] by web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:49:21 BST Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:49:21 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Ross Burton , Mystilleef In-Reply-To: <1150878520.12957.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.538 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.586, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.538 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:49:23 -0000 --- Ross Burton wrote: > Primary use case for not forking is that it makes it > trivial to write a > script that launches a program, user does something > in it, and then the > script can continue when the program has exited. If > Gedit forked when > it started I wouldn't be able to use it as $EDITOR > in cvs commit for > example. That's interesting! Would you care to add a brief note on how to do that to the wiki, perhaps on http://live.gnome.org/Sysadmin/CVS/FAQ ? > > [1] In other news this week was the first time I got > a bug report from a > Sound Juicer user who when I asked "run SJ in a > terminal and paste the > output" asked "what's a terminal?". Yay non-geek > users! Yay indeed! (Original poster wrote:) > There are many other silly UNIX conventions that are a hold back from yesteryears which bite us in the behind today. Absolutely. I keep finding some of these, filing bugs in my ignorance, and then getting told it's meant to be the way it is. We need to look at these legacy issues, because there are simply a pain to non-geek users, and non-geek contributors too. ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From nudrema@gmail.com Wed Jun 21 04:49:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 233453B04EF for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:49:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22840-07 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:49:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp40.mobistarmail.be (smtp40.mobistarmail.be [193.252.23.61]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 123723B0AF9 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:49:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.103] (unknown [212.224.134.45]) by mwinf4016.mobistarmail.be (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id AA8337000085 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 10:49:25 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060621084925698.AA8337000085@mwinf4016.mobistarmail.be Message-ID: <44990812.3040603@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 10:49:22 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Steve_Fr=E9cinaux?= User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <1150878520.12957.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <1150878520.12957.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.973 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.443, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_NEUTRAL=1.069] X-Spam-Score: -1.973 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:49:41 -0000 Ross Burton wrote: > Primary use case for not forking is that it makes it trivial to write a > script that launches a program, user does something in it, and then the > script can continue when the program has exited. If Gedit forked when > it started I wouldn't be able to use it as $EDITOR in cvs commit for > example. Well, in fact you can't now, because of a bug due to the single instance stuff (ie it's not blocking when you already have an instance of gedit). This might be solved by adding a --wait option or such for these case, but it's not done yet. From sberry@cyberspace.org Mon Jun 19 22:04:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C66503B01F6 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:04:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16941-07 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:04:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from grex.cyberspace.org (grex.cyberspace.org [216.86.77.194]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC98B3B0D79 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:04:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sberry by grex.cyberspace.org with local (Exim 4.54) id 1FsVan-0006sA-5J for usability@gnome.org; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:03:49 -0400 Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:03:49 -0400 From: David To: usability@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2i Sender: David X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.537 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.062, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.537 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 11:02:14 -0400 Subject: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 02:04:48 -0000 Dear All, I am not sure if you have seen this article (apparently it appeared on SlashDot). http://chabada.sk/better-desktop/ The reason I am mentioning it on the usability list is that he has many ideas for the utilisation of pop-up dialogues that appear not to be too intrusive. The idea of mail new message preview is a large usability gap, due to the time it takes users to switch back and forth between the app they are using and Evolution to determine if a message is improtant or not and the interruption to workflow this entails. Progress notifications, information about multimedia codecs and automatic music pause would all lead to a more intuitive systemi. The comments about displaying more relevant data in Nautilus are also worth taking on board. All in all, these are some of the best practical suggestions I have seen for a long time. I hope they provide deveopers and usability experts with food for thought. Thanks, Sarah From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Wed Jun 21 12:17:06 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB7C43B0FCB for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:17:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20270-09 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:17:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.206]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1A1503B0FE5 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:17:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 64620 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Jun 2006 16:17:02 -0000 Message-ID: <20060621161702.64618.qmail@web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.215.5.26] by web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:17:02 BST Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:17:02 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: David , usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.669 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.717, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.669 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:17:06 -0000 --- David wrote: > Dear All, > > I am not sure if you have seen this article > (apparently it appeared on SlashDot). > http://chabada.sk/better-desktop/ > > The reason I am mentioning it on the usability list > is that he has many ideas for the utilisation of > pop-up dialogues that appear not to be too > intrusive. The idea of mail new message preview is > a large usability gap, due to the time it takes > users to switch back and forth between the app they > are using and Evolution to determine if a message is > improtant or not and the interruption to workflow > this entails. Have you seen Growl for OS X? There is also a page on our wiki about redesigning the notification area. > > The comments about displaying more relevant data in > Nautilus are also worth taking on board. I do not underestand why Nautilus ties up two totally different concepts in its zoom function: icon size and amount of information displayed. If anything, the reverse would make more sense: icons smaller when there is more text in the label. I filed a bug about this but I don't think I explained it properly, as it has been ignored/ ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Wed Jun 21 12:49:44 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 617AA3B00AE for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:49:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22459-04 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:49:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C9A833B10DE for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:48:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 21 Jun 2006 17:47:39 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:47:39 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan To: sberry@grex.cyberspace.org In-Reply-To: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> Message-ID: References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:49:45 -0000 On Mon, 19 Jun 2006, David wrote: > Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:03:49 -0400 > From: David > To: usability@gnome.org > Subject: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions > > Dear All, > > I am not sure if you have seen this article (apparently it appeared on > SlashDot). http://chabada.sk/better-desktop/ I've seen it but I'm not sure it was discussed here on this list. I probably read about it on OSNews http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=14152 A lot of the suggestions could be dealt with directly by filing bug reports and feature requests and I think a few may have been filed already by the author. > Progress notifications, information about multimedia codecs and We really want to encourage people to use free and open formats and avoid vendor lock in problem which in the long run is a far worse problem. It might even be good idea to offer to transcode files to better formats before offering to install codecs for encumbered proprietary formats. Part of this "problem" is up to distributions and what they choose to include. Gnome doesn't include proprietary codecs and this stance is unlikely to change but some distributions do add them back in and give users what they think they want. Another part of it is education, to try and make sure users understand we cannot play formats such as MP3 out of the box due to legal hazards. Much as we might like to ignore the issue and give users what they want we cannot afford to as it will not go away and will only get worse. Fluendo and gstreamer do seem to be working at making it easier to install 3rd party codecs but we cannot achieve the ideal ease of use and without undermining other goals. > automatic music pause would all lead to a more intuitive systemi. the notion of pausing music has been discussed before, I dont recall if there was any conclusion or ideas on how best to go about implementing it. > The comments about displaying more relevant data in Nautilus are also > worth taking on board. I think the author may have posted those directly to the nautilus list. Sincerely Alan Horkan Inkscape http://inkscape.org Abiword http://www.abisource.com Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/ From thejello@gmail.com Wed Jun 21 14:37:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9858F3B014E for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:37:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29199-05 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:37:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.183]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 705803B0084 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:37:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id x66so48839pye for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 11:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.134.12 with SMTP id l12mr136441pyn; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 11:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.124.18 with HTTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 11:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4d9c6c340606211137p39290216x864bd61275aec52@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:37:08 -0400 From: "Simon Francis" To: "Alan Horkan" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_5466_4641605.1150915028419" References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.129 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.470, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.129 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org, sberry@grex.cyberspace.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 18:37:12 -0000 ------=_Part_5466_4641605.1150915028419 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Why does Gnome open non-free document formats that have related patents (Word, Excel, etc) but not multimedia files? I would consider it essential for a modern desktop to open either and a major barrier to adoption. On 6/21/06, Alan Horkan wrote: > > > On Mon, 19 Jun 2006, David wrote: > > > Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:03:49 -0400 > > From: David > > To: usability@gnome.org > > Subject: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions > > > > Dear All, > > > > I am not sure if you have seen this article (apparently it appeared on > > SlashDot). http://chabada.sk/better-desktop/ > > I've seen it but I'm not sure it was discussed here on this list. > > I probably read about it on OSNews > http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=14152 > > A lot of the suggestions could be dealt with directly by filing bug > reports and feature requests and I think a few may have been filed already > by the author. > > > Progress notifications, information about multimedia codecs and > > We really want to encourage people to use free and open formats and avoid > vendor lock in problem which in the long run is a far worse problem. It > might even be good idea to offer to transcode files to better formats > before offering to install codecs for encumbered proprietary formats. > > Part of this "problem" is up to distributions and what they choose to > include. Gnome doesn't include proprietary codecs and this stance is > unlikely to change but some distributions do add them back in and give > users what they think they want. > > Another part of it is education, to try and make sure users understand we > cannot play formats such as MP3 out of the box due to legal hazards. > Much as we might like to ignore the issue and give users what they want we > cannot afford to as it will not go away and will only get worse. > > Fluendo and gstreamer do seem to be working at making it easier to install > 3rd party codecs but we cannot achieve the ideal ease of use and without > undermining other goals. > > > automatic music pause would all lead to a more intuitive systemi. > > the notion of pausing music has been discussed before, I dont recall if > there was any conclusion or ideas on how best to go about implementing it. > > > The comments about displaying more relevant data in Nautilus are also > > worth taking on board. > > I think the author may have posted those directly to the nautilus list. > > Sincerely > > Alan Horkan > > Inkscape http://inkscape.org > Abiword http://www.abisource.com > Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org > > Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Usability mailing list > Usability@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability > ------=_Part_5466_4641605.1150915028419 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Why does Gnome open non-free document formats that have related patents (Word, Excel, etc) but not multimedia files? I would consider it essential for a modern desktop to open either and a major barrier to adoption.

On 6/21/06, Alan Horkan <horkana@maths.tcd.ie> wrote:

On Mon, 19 Jun 2006, David wrote:

> Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:03:49 -0400
> From: David <sberry@grex.cyberspace.org>
> To: usability@gnome.org
> Subject: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions
>
> Dear All,
>
> I am not sure if you have seen this article (apparently it appeared on
> SlashDot). http://chabada.sk/better-desktop/

I've seen it but I'm not sure it was discussed here on this list.

I probably read about it on OSNews
http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=14152

A lot of the suggestions could be dealt with directly by filing bug
reports and feature requests and I think a few may have been filed already
by the author.

> Progress notifications, information about multimedia codecs and

We really want to encourage people to use free and open formats and avoid
vendor lock in problem which in the long run is a far worse problem.  It
might even be good idea to offer to transcode files to better formats
before offering to install codecs for encumbered proprietary formats.

Part of this "problem" is up to distributions and what they choose to
include.  Gnome doesn't include proprietary codecs and this stance is
unlikely to change but some distributions do add them back in and give
users what they think they want.

Another part of it is education, to try and make sure users understand we
cannot play formats such as MP3 out of the box due to legal hazards.
Much as we might like to ignore the issue and give users what they want we
cannot afford to as it will not go away and will only get worse.

Fluendo and gstreamer do seem to be working at making it easier to install
3rd party codecs but we cannot achieve the ideal ease of use and without
undermining other goals.

> automatic music pause would all lead to a more intuitive systemi.

the notion of pausing music has been discussed before, I dont recall if
there was any conclusion or ideas on how best to go about implementing it.

> The comments about displaying more relevant data in Nautilus are also
> worth taking on board.

I think the author may have posted those directly to the nautilus list.

Sincerely

Alan Horkan

Inkscape http://inkscape.org
Abiword http://www.abisource.com
Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org

Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/



_______________________________________________
Usability mailing list
Usability@gnome.org
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability

------=_Part_5466_4641605.1150915028419-- From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Wed Jun 21 16:21:38 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 456063B05BB for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:21:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03268-09 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:21:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BE8643B05C0 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:21:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 21 Jun 2006 21:21:33 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 21:21:33 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <4d9c6c340606211137p39290216x864bd61275aec52@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> <4d9c6c340606211137p39290216x864bd61275aec52@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 20:21:38 -0000 On Wed, 21 Jun 2006, Simon Francis wrote: > Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:37:08 -0400 > From: Simon Francis > To: Alan Horkan > Cc: sberry@grex.cyberspace.org, usability@gnome.org > Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions > > Why does Gnome open non-free document formats that have related patents > (Word, Excel, etc) but not multimedia files? Techincally (and I apologise for the pedantry) Abiword and Gnumeric or Openoffice are the ones opening those formats not "GNOME" (although they are part or the wider Gnome community). More importantly the older office document formats have quite the same patent threats looming over them as the newer video formats do and they could be clean room reverse engineered but patents on video formats remain a threat even if the decoders are completely new code. > I would consider it essential for a modern desktop to open either and a > major barrier to adoption. The develolpers are not going to lock themselves out of their own desktop by using proprietary formats. If distributions choose to include additional codecs that is up to them. Other operating systems do not support certain formats out of the box. This is not directly a Gnome issue, and it is more a packaging and installation issue than a usability or mulitmedia issue. I am sure Gstreamer will continue to try and make it easier to install third part codecs but it is a nasty problem since the root of it is the politics of software patents. I understand your points and I do sort of agree with you (most likely I will choose a distribution which includes the codecs, or maybe install them myself but try to use unencumbered formats where possible) and I am only trying to present the problem as best I understand it. -- Alan From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Wed Jun 21 17:26:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B9A03B0153 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:26:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07094-01 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:26:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.206]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4366F3B0005 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:26:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 98624 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Jun 2006 21:26:49 -0000 Message-ID: <20060621212649.98622.qmail@web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.188.165.84] by web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 22:26:49 BST Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 22:26:49 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Alan Horkan , sberry@grex.cyberspace.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.653 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.701, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.653 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 21:26:51 -0000 --- Alan Horkan wrote: > Another part of it is education, to try and make > sure users understand we > cannot play formats such as MP3 out of the box due > to legal hazards. > Much as we might like to ignore the issue and give > users what they want we > cannot afford to as it will not go away and will > only get worse. Then let's educate the users! Try to open an MP3 file in Nautilus, and you get a 'application could not be found' message, which is unhelpful and untrue. Replace that with something that says why the MP3 can't be played. ___________________________________________________________ The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html From ross@burtonini.com Thu Jun 22 06:19:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9248D3B0389 for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 06:19:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15587-05 for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 06:19:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 651A03B042A for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 06:19:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from burtonini.com (althur.gotadsl.co.uk [84.12.135.175]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D3F029BC37; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 11:14:54 +0100 (BST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (ident=unknown) by burtonini.com with esmtp (masqmail 0.2.21) id 1Ft3Ca-331-00; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:57:04 +0100 From: Ross Burton To: Steve =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9cinaux?= In-Reply-To: <44990812.3040603@gmail.com> References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <1150878520.12957.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <44990812.3040603@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-GS5gCILk9mi/7eC2n045" Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:57:04 +0100 Message-Id: <1150898224.7820.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.833 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.616, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_12_24=1.247, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -1.833 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 10:19:18 -0000 --=-GS5gCILk9mi/7eC2n045 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 2006-06-21 at 10:49 +0200, Steve Fr=C3=A9cinaux wrote: > Ross Burton wrote: >=20 > > Primary use case for not forking is that it makes it trivial to write a > > script that launches a program, user does something in it, and then the > > script can continue when the program has exited. If Gedit forked when > > it started I wouldn't be able to use it as $EDITOR in cvs commit for > > example. >=20 > Well, in fact you can't now, because of a bug due to the single instance > stuff (ie it's not blocking when you already have an instance of gedit). >=20 > This might be solved by adding a --wait option or such for these case, > but it's not done yet. Never let reality get in the way of a good example, that's what I say. Yes, the single-instance stuff needs a --wait or something. In fact I'll add this to the single-instance SoC project wiki page. Ross --=20 Ross Burton mail: ross@burtonini.com jabber: ross@burtonini.com www: http://www.burtonini.com./ PGP Fingerprint: 1A21 F5B0 D8D0 CFE3 81D4 E25A 2D09 E447 D0B4 33DF --=-GS5gCILk9mi/7eC2n045 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEmVAwLQnkR9C0M98RAjj/AJkBwL8X5gXuowk+mivKV7xgBtxiYQCggIe4 2AiH4/XMuAfyJXaHvh10+DM= =rEto -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-GS5gCILk9mi/7eC2n045-- From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Fri Jun 23 03:30:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97FAB3B018A for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 03:30:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22794-06 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 03:30:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32406.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32406.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.199]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AD4CA3B00ED for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 03:30:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 90963 invoked by uid 60001); 23 Jun 2006 07:30:56 -0000 Message-ID: <20060623073056.90961.qmail@web32406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.214.29.119] by web32406.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 08:30:56 BST Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 08:30:56 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Michael Knepher , Gnome usability In-Reply-To: <19425c310606221428w62bc6e6ey19dd5c892a7e4176@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.56 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.608, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.56 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 07:30:57 -0000 --- Michael Knepher wrote: > On 6/21/06, Joachim Noreiko > wrote: > > > > --- Alan Horkan wrote: > > > > > Another part of it is education, to try and make > > > sure users understand we > > > cannot play formats such as MP3 out of the box > due > > > to legal hazards. > > > > Then let's educate the users! > > > > Try to open an MP3 file in Nautilus, and you get a > > 'application could not be found' message, which is > > unhelpful and untrue. > > Replace that with something that says why the MP3 > > can't be played. > > Isn't that the generic message that appears when > trying to open *any* > file type that doesn't have an application > registered to that > mime-type? Why should nautilus have a hard-coded > exception for any > file-type? Having a support page with information or > links to further > information about various filetypes and what > applications can > open/play/edit/hang out with them would seem to be a > better idea. > Today it may be mp3, but tomorrow it's likely to be > some other format, > and even today mp3 is far from the only > unsupported-out-of-the-box > file format for most distributions. Opening a support page when the user tries to open an MP3 file would be fine too. Basically, something needs to happen beyond the default message so the user doesn't simply think "This linux is rubbish -- it doesn't even know what an MP3 file is!" And yes, we could widen the idea, so anytime the user tries to open a file for which there's currently no application, she can go to find out more about what to do next. Eg, try to open an SVG file, and the helpfile you're pointed to will suggest Inkscape. ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From kbridger@shaw.ca Sat Jun 24 15:16:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B07543B00A5 for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 15:16:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31701-10 for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 15:16:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pd2mo2so.prod.shaw.ca (shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net [24.71.223.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2AF63B01B1 for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 15:16:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pd2mr7so.prod.shaw.ca (pd2mr7so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.10]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1D00MELPIRZW10@l-daemon> for usability@gnome.org; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 13:16:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml9so.prod.shaw.ca ([10.0.121.7]) by pd2mr7so.prod.shaw.ca (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1D00L5ZPIRYC00@pd2mr7so.prod.shaw.ca> for usability@gnome.org; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 13:16:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from spontaneity.thebside.ca ([70.70.211.21]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1D00HLCPIQVQG0@l-daemon> for usability@gnome.org; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 13:16:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.0.10] (westley [192.168.0.10]) by spontaneity.thebside.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0D6A1014; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 12:16:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 12:16:01 -0700 From: Kirk Bridger In-reply-to: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> To: David Message-id: <449D8F71.1060304@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.366 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.809, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST=1.708, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.366 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 19:16:56 -0000 His site seems down, but looking through Google's cache I have a comment: Renaming file extensions causes file type change: I don't like the way Windows uses file extensions to determine filetype. I think it is much more useful to have the system figure out what filetype it is. Windows ended up providing users with a means of hiding file extensions and we all know how that turned out. I love being able to send a .exe file through my exchange server's filter simply by renaming it .txt. Changing types though could be useful - I use nautilus's script to resize images for example. Being able to do that in the properties or by right-clicking is an interesting idea. I suppose the same could be done for filetypes as well, to a limited extent. I'm not sure if there is a frequently used use case there or not though. Kirk David wrote: > Dear All, > > I am not sure if you have seen this article (apparently it appeared on SlashDot). > http://chabada.sk/better-desktop/ > > The reason I am mentioning it on the usability list is that he has many ideas for the utilisation of pop-up dialogues that appear not to be too intrusive. The idea of mail new message preview is a large usability gap, due to the time it takes users to switch back and forth between the app they are using and Evolution to determine if a message is improtant or not and the interruption to workflow this entails. > > Progress notifications, information about multimedia codecs and automatic music pause would all lead to a more intuitive systemi. > > The comments about displaying more relevant data in Nautilus are also worth taking on board. > > All in all, these are some of the best practical suggestions I have seen for a long time. I hope they provide deveopers and usability experts with food for thought. > > Thanks, > > Sarah > _______________________________________________ > Usability mailing list > Usability@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability > From mpt@myrealbox.com Sun Jun 25 01:21:37 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40CD73B02A2 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 01:21:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17670-06 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 01:21:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from leucothea.redline.site5.com (leucothea.redline.site5.com [216.118.97.161]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E57D3B0079 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 01:21:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 203-173-178-53.bliink.ihug.co.nz ([203.173.178.53] helo=[10.1.1.5]) by leucothea.redline.site5.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.52) id 1FuN3O-0005nO-Se; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 01:21:03 -0400 In-Reply-To: <449D8F71.1060304@shaw.ca> References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> <449D8F71.1060304@shaw.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <6b768541cf85cb7ade2a7217c3faffd4@myrealbox.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Matthew Paul Thomas Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:21:12 +1200 To: Gnome usability X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.623) X-Antivirus-Scanner: This message has been scanned by ClamAV. X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - leucothea.redline.site5.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnome.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - myrealbox.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.499 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.499 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 05:21:37 -0000 On Jun 25, 2006, at 7:16 AM, Kirk Bridger wrote: > ... > I don't like the way Windows uses file extensions to determine > filetype. I think it is much more useful to have the system figure > out what filetype it is. Windows ended up providing users with a > means of hiding file extensions and we all know how that turned out. > I love being able to send a .exe file through my exchange server's > filter simply by renaming it .txt. > ... The converse of that is the friend of mine who renamed something.bmp to something.gif and wondered why it didn't get converted. (And that was without even being exposed to the Gimp, which has a Save dialog encouraging such confusion.) -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Sun Jun 25 05:29:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FA973B0079 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 05:29:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07670-03 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 05:29:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B8F243B013D for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 05:29:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 25 Jun 2006 10:28:36 +0100 (BST) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:28:36 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: Gnome usability In-Reply-To: <6b768541cf85cb7ade2a7217c3faffd4@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> <449D8F71.1060304@shaw.ca> <6b768541cf85cb7ade2a7217c3faffd4@myrealbox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 09:29:34 -0000 On Sun, 25 Jun 2006, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:21:12 +1200 > From: Matthew Paul Thomas > To: Gnome usability > Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions > > On Jun 25, 2006, at 7:16 AM, Kirk Bridger wrote: > > ... > > I don't like the way Windows uses file extensions to determine > > filetype. It is a fairly fast way of doing things. > > I think it is much more useful to have the system figure > > out what filetype it is. There certainly used to be an option to use full file type detection in Nautilus, which was much more necessary several years ago as some developers intentionally did not use any file extensions but most do nowadays. Even if we had a system where we did not need to use file extensions I would generally add them back in for my own use, they are especially useful for simple pattern matching on the command line. For example: ls -lgh *.png > > Windows ended up providing users with a > > means of hiding file extensions and we all know how that turned out. > > I love being able to send a .exe file through my exchange server's > > filter simply by renaming it .txt. I've seen people embed huge video files inside Word Documents just to bypass stupid filters. It is a system only useful for preventing users from accidentally shooting themselves in the foot but that wont stop those determined to wreck their computer. > The converse of that is the friend of mine who renamed something.bmp to > something.gif and wondered why it didn't get converted. A very familiar situation. It didn't help that some web authoring tools such as Microsoft Frontpage failed to discourage users from including massive uncompressed bitmaps on their web pages. It would sure be an improvement to offer to convert the file instead of issuing pointless - inevitably ignored - warnings the way Microsoft does. -- Alan From http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2002-02-06-013-20-RV-KE-0004 Matt Perrt - Subject: Re: Wish List for kde3 ( Feb 7, 2002, 00:16:08 ) I have but one wish for KDE3. Make the "about" menu of each program display a one or two paragraph summary of what the program is about. Move all the credits to a "credits" menu. For new computer users, it's misleading to have the about menu not tell you anything useful about the program. Flame away ;-) Gregory Merchan From maurizio.colucci@gmail.com Sat Jun 3 09:44:58 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84B783B0071 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 09:44:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06472-03 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 09:44:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.225]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C22D3B04A9 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 09:44:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 50so711416wri for ; Sat, 03 Jun 2006 06:44:54 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=ueyQCybpWPMALDzDI3limxwRxIl77AriXASXgdjlnwOf+AW372pd6t9Vb64sFv7dsEpKBavtuMpnHsa4Xdronef3L9406qVAygiWe4PvwRYktPpImW1ASpjnKdnamNKMdXcz01o7/cM+dRHHr0HLE4di4q6Ou3KdSXFa3hRNpCo= Received: by 10.64.195.9 with SMTP id s9mr2455617qbf; Sat, 03 Jun 2006 06:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.237.7 with HTTP; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 06:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 15:44:54 +0200 From: "Maurizio Colucci" To: usability@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_18723_27366656.1149342294208" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.457 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.142, BAYES_05=-1.11, HTML_00_10=0.795, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.457 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Usability] Fingerprint reader X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 13:44:58 -0000 ------=_Part_18723_27366656.1149342294208 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi, Yesterday, when I had a friend of mine try the new Ubuntu, I had an unpleasant suprise: he laughed at me when he saw me type the password by hand. It seems he has been using a fingerprint reader under Windows, for more than a year now. I realized this is a feature that he will not do without, now he has gotten used to it. It seems the advantage under GNU/Linux would be even greater, since GNU/Linux requires you to type passwords more often than Windows. Is there some way to use a fingerprint reader to type passwords with Gnome? (My guess is it isn't, and that some work would be needed at the level of gksu and gdm.) I have no real point however, I only wished to inform you about this. Cheers Maurizio ------=_Part_18723_27366656.1149342294208 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi,
Yesterday, when I had a friend of mine try the new Ubuntu, I had an unpleasant suprise: he laughed at me when he saw me type the password by hand. It seems he has been using a fingerprint reader under Windows, for more than a year now.

I realized this is a feature that he will not do without, now he has gotten used to it.

It seems the advantage under GNU/Linux would be even greater, since GNU/Linux requires you to type passwords more often than Windows.

Is there some way to use a fingerprint reader to type passwords with Gnome? (My guess is it isn't, and that some work would be needed at the level of gksu and gdm.)

I have no real point however, I only wished to inform you about this. Cheers

Maurizio
------=_Part_18723_27366656.1149342294208-- From herzi@gnome-de.org Sat Jun 3 10:16:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39D073B0418 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:16:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08377-05 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:16:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.bytecamp.net (mail.bytecamp.net [212.204.60.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4B0413B011C for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:16:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 49673 invoked by uid 85); 3 Jun 2006 14:16:19 -0000 Received: from herzi@gnome-de.org by mail.bytecamp.net by uid 88 with qmail-scanner-1.20 (clamscan: 0.88.1 Clear:RC:0(80.171.61.188):. Processed in 0.020755 secs); 03 Jun 2006 14:16:19 -0000 Received: from d061188.adsl.hansenet.de (HELO wallace) (herzi%gnome-de.org@80.171.61.188) by mail.bytecamp.net with SMTP; 3 Jun 2006 14:16:18 -0000 Subject: Re: [Usability] Fingerprint reader From: Sven Herzberg To: Maurizio Colucci In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-eRqHlUcxkMCx8gO/XwrP" Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 17:35:30 +0200 Message-Id: <1149348930.5442.12.camel@wallace> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.48 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.042, BAYES_00=-2.599, TW_GD=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.48 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 14:16:27 -0000 --=-eRqHlUcxkMCx8gO/XwrP Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sa, 2006-06-03 at 15:44 +0200, Maurizio Colucci wrote: > Yesterday, when I had a friend of mine try the new Ubuntu, I had an > unpleasant suprise: he laughed at me when he saw me type the password > by hand. It seems he has been using a fingerprint reader under > Windows, for more than a year now.=20 >=20 > I realized this is a feature that he will not do without, now he has > gotten used to it.=20 >=20 > It seems the advantage under GNU/Linux would be even greater, since > GNU/Linux requires you to type passwords more often than Windows.=20 >=20 > Is there some way to use a fingerprint reader to type passwords with > Gnome? (My guess is it isn't, and that some work would be needed at > the level of gksu and gdm.)=20 The fingerprint readers in the Thinkpad X41 series do work with Linux and work with the pam-bio-api plugin. I tested this both with gdm and gksu and it works (not perfectly but, well, it wors). I only didn't test it with gnome keyring (which will be an important thing too). > I have no real point however, I only wished to inform you about this. > Cheers=20 Regards, Sven --=-eRqHlUcxkMCx8gO/XwrP Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEgaxCBWX9a7HDCv4RAn03AKDFQ6419PZ/XzvvDpkjxBimpH0sywCfawZV RYa+Y4FgXJ2XedGWhwxW8uc= =Ocwk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-eRqHlUcxkMCx8gO/XwrP-- From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Sat Jun 3 10:17:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D17B43B05AE for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:17:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08314-10 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:17:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 28FB03B0601 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:17:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 3 Jun 2006 15:17:44 +0100 (BST) Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 15:17:44 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan To: Maurizio Colucci Subject: Re: [Usability] Fingerprint reader In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 14:17:50 -0000 On Sat, 3 Jun 2006, Maurizio Colucci wrote: > Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 15:44:54 +0200 > From: Maurizio Colucci > To: usability@gnome.org > Subject: [Usability] Fingerprint reader > > Hi, > Yesterday, when I had a friend of mine try the new Ubuntu, I had an > unpleasant suprise: he laughed at me when he saw me type the password by > hand. It seems he has been using a fingerprint reader under Windows, for > more than a year now. This is a bit off topic for this list. Better to check with Ubuntu about hardware support. > It seems the advantage under GNU/Linux would be even greater, since > GNU/Linux requires you to type passwords more often than Windows. (It is easier to just type Gnome than GNU/Linux every time.) A topic more appropriate to this list would be trying to figure out ways to improve password sharing and single sign on so that you do not need to type passwords so often. > Is there some way to use a fingerprint reader to type passwords with Gnome? I assume it would fit in with the existing password infrastructure. I know Sun Microsystems have systems setup to login and authenticate off a smart card and there are suggestions of doing the same using USB keys so I'd be surprised if there wasn't already a supported finger print reader but it may take a little bit of additional work to get it up and running. > I have no real point however, I only wished to inform you about this. Cheers Thanks for trying. -- Alan From elektro@geekspot.de Sun Jun 4 11:01:01 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10C033B016C for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 11:01:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24057-03 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 11:00:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.169199.vserver.de (riedrich.biz [62.75.169.199]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45FC53B011B for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 11:00:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.169199.vserver.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id E21EB338804F for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:00:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp.169199.vserver.de ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (169199.vserver.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19483-02 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:00:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Desktop.lan (d463d0c7.datahighways.de [212.99.208.199]) by smtp.169199.vserver.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4E35338804D for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:00:39 +0200 (CEST) From: elektro To: usability@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 17:00:39 +0200 Message-Id: <1149433239.10978.15.camel@desktop> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: By ClamAV on Debian GNU/Linux at Geekspot X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.465 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.465 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Usability] The "Desktop" dilemma X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 15:01:01 -0000 Hi there, I'm new to this mailing list, so I don't know if this has already been discussed or not. What really disturbs me a lot (in almost all operating systems) is the "Desktop dilemma". I think the desktop folder, or the Desktop button in the places menu somehow just doesn't fit in. In Nautilus, in my home folder, I have a "Desktop" folder. But in the sidebar, I have a place called "personal folder", and a second place called "Desktop", although "Desktop" is also a sub-directory of my "personal folder". This is confusing, especially to new users. I think the desktop should be _either_ a directory, _or_ a place, but not both. My suggestion would be to have the desktop only show up as a place, and the files on the desktop could be stored in a hidden ".desktop" directory within the user's home. Another thing is the two Nautilus toolbar buttons "Personal folder" and "Computer". The button in the toolbar says "Personal folder", while the same button in the sidebar reads my username. I think both buttons should be removed, instead, the "Computer" icon should also appear as a button in the "places" sidebar. I'd bring some new arrangement into the places sidebar, similar to the one in the "Places" menu in the panel: -------- Personal Desktop -------- Computer File system -------- Network servers -------- The problem with the current layout is that all drives are completely mixed together, the "file system" place is also somewhere in between. When you go the the "Computer" place, you see all attached/mounted drives as icons. The problem is that it's hard to see if a drive is actually mounted or not, for example my USB stick: It's hard to see from the icon if it is mounted or not. What I also really miss is the ability to unmount/eject an external drive be right-clicking the icon in the sidebar or in the Places menu. Mac OS X is doing this right: An mounted CD-ROM appars in a Finder sidebar, similar to Nautilus, but there's a little "eject button" next to the icon, when you click this, the CD is unmounted and ejected. Perhaps you could add such an eject button to the places sidebar and the places panel menu. Tom From david@sipsolutions.net Sun Jun 4 14:35:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B06D43B017A for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 14:35:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03644-08 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 14:35:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sipsolutions.net (crystal.sipsolutions.net [195.210.38.204]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DE083B0130 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 14:35:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [84.133.205.221] (helo=[192.168.1.7]) by sipsolutions.net with esmtpsa (TLS-1.0:RSA_ARCFOUR_MD5:16) (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FmxRy-0007EF-Op; Sun, 04 Jun 2006 19:35:47 +0100 Subject: Re: [Usability] The "Desktop" dilemma From: David Christian Berg To: elektro In-Reply-To: <1149433239.10978.15.camel@desktop> References: <1149433239.10978.15.camel@desktop> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 20:34:58 +0200 Message-Id: <1149446101.8310.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 18:35:51 -0000 Hey Tom! > I think the desktop should be _either_ a directory, _or_ a place, but > not both. My suggestion would be to have the desktop only show up as a > place, and the files on the desktop could be stored in a hidden > ".desktop" directory within the user's home. Would you be ok with displaying the desktop as a desktop icon in the home directory as well so that it's easily distinguishable from other folders? > Another thing is the two Nautilus toolbar buttons "Personal folder" and > "Computer". The button in the toolbar says "Personal folder", while the > same button in the sidebar reads my username. I think both buttons > should be removed, instead, the "Computer" icon should also appear as a > button in the "places" sidebar. In my version the folder reads "Home Folder" and the button "Go to home folder" I don't think there's anything wrong with this, because many people might not use the tree view on the sidepane. The computer icon is not needed in the tree view, because you see the drives anyways > I'd bring some new arrangement into the places sidebar, similar to the > one in the "Places" menu in the panel: > > -------- > Personal > Desktop > -------- > Computer > File system > > > > -------- > Network servers > > -------- > The problem with the current layout is that all drives are completely > mixed together, the "file system" place is also somewhere in between. I do like the idea of dividing them this way and also would add a separate section for mounted media like cams and usb sticks, floppies and CDs... if possible. However, does GTK TreeView have a dividing element? As for the Computer: I'd leave it unchanged > When you go the the "Computer" place, you see all attached/mounted > drives as icons. The problem is that it's hard to see if a drive is > actually mounted or not, for example my USB stick: It's hard to see from > the icon if it is mounted or not. What I also really miss is the ability > to unmount/eject an external drive be right-clicking the icon in the > sidebar or in the Places menu. Mac OS X is doing this right: An mounted > CD-ROM appars in a Finder sidebar, similar to Nautilus, but there's a > little "eject button" next to the icon, when you click this, the CD is > unmounted and ejected. Perhaps you could add such an eject button to the > places sidebar and the places panel menu. Afaik you only see the icon, if it is mounted... at least it should be that way with all the media. Take care! David From chris@gnome-de.org Mon Jun 5 09:09:35 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 849453B0208 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:09:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00391-01 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:09:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.bytecamp.net (mail.bytecamp.net [212.204.60.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 56FE63B02DA for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:09:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 3177 invoked by uid 85); 5 Jun 2006 13:09:21 -0000 Received: from chris@gnome-de.org by mail.bytecamp.net by uid 88 with qmail-scanner-1.20 (clamscan: 0.88.1 Clear:RC:0(84.150.144.79):. Processed in 0.190123 secs); 05 Jun 2006 13:09:21 -0000 Received: from p5496904f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (HELO ?192.168.123.191?) (chris@gnome-de.org@84.150.144.79) by mail.bytecamp.net with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 13:09:20 -0000 Subject: Re: [Usability] Fingerprint reader From: Christian Neumair To: Maurizio Colucci In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 15:02:50 +0200 Message-Id: <1149512570.8272.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.587 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.012, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.587 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:09:35 -0000 Am Samstag, den 03.06.2006, 15:44 +0200 schrieb Maurizio Colucci: > Hi, > Yesterday, when I had a friend of mine try the new Ubuntu, I had an > unpleasant suprise: he laughed at me when he saw me type the password > by hand. It seems he has been using a fingerprint reader under > Windows, for more than a year now. > > I realized this is a feature that he will not do without, now he has > gotten used to it. > > It seems the advantage under GNU/Linux would be even greater, since > GNU/Linux requires you to type passwords more often than Windows. > > Is there some way to use a fingerprint reader to type passwords with > Gnome? (My guess is it isn't, and that some work would be needed at > the level of gksu and gdm.) > > I have no real point however, I only wished to inform you about this. > Cheers I filed an Ubuntu spec some months ago: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FingerprintAuthentication All the tools seem to be available already. As soon as the framework is in place, we'll adapt the GNOME stack to support it, creating a configuration and authentication UI, and gnome-keyring integration. I contacted the BioAPI packager Michael R. Crusoe some time ago to ask him whether he will split up the packages a bit, but I didn't get any response so far. From hadess@hadess.net Mon Jun 5 15:50:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9155B3B085A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:50:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26525-04 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:50:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lucifer.nerdfest.org (lucifer.nerdfest.org [216.243.209.218]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 426593B08B0 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:50:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.5] (cpc4-glfd1-0-0-cust751.glfd.cable.ntl.com [86.16.126.240]) (authenticated bits=0) by lucifer.nerdfest.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k55JoPoh009983 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:50:28 -0500 Subject: Re: [Usability] Fingerprint reader From: Bastien Nocera To: Maurizio Colucci In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:55:11 +0100 Message-Id: <1149537312.9198.9.camel@wyatt.hadess.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.5.90 (2.5.90-2.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.88.2/1512/Sun Jun 4 04:58:49 2006 on lucifer.nerdfest.org X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.594 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.006, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.594 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:50:45 -0000 On Sat, 2006-06-03 at 15:44 +0200, Maurizio Colucci wrote: > Hi, > Yesterday, when I had a friend of mine try the new Ubuntu, I had an > unpleasant suprise: he laughed at me when he saw me type the password > by hand. It seems he has been using a fingerprint reader under > Windows, for more than a year now. A combination of pam_keyring, and the pam modules Sven mentioned should do: http://www.hekanetworks.com/index.php/publisher/articleview/frmArticleID/25/staticId/31/ -- Bastien Nocera From glatzor@ubuntu.com Tue Jun 6 08:03:14 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEBF33B08AA for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:03:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19222-06 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:03:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail-out.m-online.net (mail-out.m-online.net [212.18.0.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6463D3B0979 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:02:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail01.m-online.net (svr21.m-online.net [192.168.3.149]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76F2672CC4 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:02:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pimpzkru.dyndns.org (ppp-62-245-208-121.mnet-online.de [62.245.208.121]) by mail.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CBC891424 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:02:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pimpzkru.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE831D2C38 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:16:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pimpzkru.dyndns.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (server.daheim [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32591-08 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:16:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from sebi-mac.daheim (sebi-mac.daheim [10.169.18.2]) by pimpzkru.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9B05D2C2C for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:16:31 +0200 (CEST) From: Sebastian Heinlein To: usability@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 14:01:40 +0200 Message-Id: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at pimpzkru X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.435 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.029, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.435 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Usability] Using nouns or verbs for the disclosure widgets X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:03:15 -0000 Hi, would you recommend to use a noun for the disclosure widgets e.g. "Details" or verbs e.g. "Show details"/"Hide details"? There is no corresponding section in the HIG. And both variants are in use currently. Regards, Sebastian From raeth.phox@gmail.com Tue Jun 6 08:19:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9826F3B08AA for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:19:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20110-07 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:19:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.172]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7004D3B0141 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:19:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id o2so1645338uge for ; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 05:18:59 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=tzLanvgM7DJ/K0gtFSV1wYYqtq8vky0oxlEnHI8oKGZofqP/pbVnOLV7L7iYyewPK9Gme2GZTeyuoMqaNb3XagvchsF2X4ZxJVbIEFZZLbxc9pw44qz/1fjm8q28B7cABezCyBe6Dbv4CVDkQNx8+mmYVGk7Jp+NK9CFUNLM1Tg= Received: by 10.78.18.1 with SMTP id 1mr1130306hur; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 05:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.50.15 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 05:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <878a8ff60606060518h749cc845x32a54fa2ded2650d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 13:18:59 +0100 From: Raeth Subject: Re: [Usability] Using nouns or verbs for the disclosure widgets Cc: usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.042 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.558, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.042 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:19:03 -0000 Hey, I'd go with "Show/Hide details", as it indicates whether the details are being currently shown or hidden. I think a verb would be more fitting with natural language. If I wanted to see the details, I'd want to "show details". I wouldn't go "details" to hide or show them. If they were on a tab you'd want the objective noun, like a title, but seeing as the disclosure widget is an action, I'd go with an action phrase. A verb would correspond with the such commonly used verbs as "save file" and "cancel". Raeth On 6/6/06, Sebastian Heinlein wrote: > Hi, > > would you recommend to use a noun for the disclosure widgets e.g. > "Details" or verbs e.g. "Show details"/"Hide details"? > > There is no corresponding section in the HIG. And both variants are in > use currently. > > Regards, > > Sebastian From Calum.Benson@Sun.COM Tue Jun 6 18:39:53 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81A1D3B01E8 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 18:39:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26404-10 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 18:39:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B08643B00E6 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 18:39:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-01.sun.com (d1-emea-01.sun.com [192.18.2.111] (may be forged)) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k56Mdlui019400 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 23:39:47 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-01.sun.com by d1-emea-01.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0G00H01HQ39T00@d1-emea-01.sun.com> (original mail from Calum.Benson@Sun.COM) for usability@gnome.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 23:39:46 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([213.202.177.89]) by d1-emea-01.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0G00IGYMYAOE00@d1-emea-01.sun.com>; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 23:39:46 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 23:39:43 +0100 From: Calum Benson Subject: Re: [Usability] Using nouns or verbs for the disclosure widgets In-reply-to: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> Sender: Calum.Benson@Sun.COM To: Sebastian Heinlein Message-id: <5FB97E1B-5914-4EB7-9674-ADDF1C47C503@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 22:39:53 -0000 On 6 Jun 2006, at 13:01, Sebastian Heinlein wrote: > would you recommend to use a noun for the disclosure widgets e.g. > "Details" or verbs e.g. "Show details"/"Hide details"? Hmm... out if interest I looked at the Apple guidelines, and it said that verbs were preferred, then illustrated the guideline with an example using a noun :) Seems like it's not just our HIG that has that kind of problem... http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/ OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGControls/chapter_18_section_7.html#//apple_ref/ doc/uid/TP30000359-TPXREF141 Personally, I've always labelled disclosure widgets in the same way I'd label a frame, i.e. with a noun (but without the bold text, of course). The direction of the arrow, in conjunction with the presence or absence of controls below it, seems sufficient to indicate the current shown/hidden status IMHO. And dynamically changing text is never much fun for screenreaders to keep up with either. > There is no corresponding section in the HIG. Yeah, that placeholder's been there a while :/ I really want to get stuck into the HIG post-GUADEC (assuming I'm not one of Sun's unlucky 5000....) Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:calum.benson@sun.com Java Desktop System Team http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Wed Jun 7 05:42:50 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13CA93B0C9A for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 05:42:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32165-01 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 05:42:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 339AA3B0AE7 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 05:42:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 7 Jun 2006 10:42:44 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 10:42:42 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan To: Calum Benson Subject: Re: [Usability] Using nouns or verbs for the disclosure widgets In-Reply-To: <5FB97E1B-5914-4EB7-9674-ADDF1C47C503@sun.com> Message-ID: References: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> <5FB97E1B-5914-4EB7-9674-ADDF1C47C503@sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 09:42:50 -0000 On Tue, 6 Jun 2006, Calum Benson wrote: [...] > Yeah, that placeholder's been there a while :/ I really want to get > stuck into the HIG post-GUADEC (assuming I'm not one of Sun's unlucky > 5000....) If you are among the unlucky hundreds it would be a serious loss to Gnome, since you seem to be the only usability professional actively helping on this list anymore. If there are other usability professionals here rather than enthusiastic amateurs please do feel free to (re)introduce yourselves. -- Alan From gnome-Usability@m.gmane.org Wed Jun 7 18:55:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11D1B3B0E64 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 18:55:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20656-09 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 18:55:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2131A3B0DED for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 18:55:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Fo6w6-0002OX-Iw for Usability@gnome.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:55:38 +0200 Received: from h-68-165-5-38.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.5.38]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:55:38 +0200 Received: from wohler by h-68-165-5-38.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:55:38 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: Usability@gnome.org From: Bill Wohler Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 15:55:24 -0700 Organization: Newt Software Lines: 20 Message-ID: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: h-68-165-5-38.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:VJ8cSiv38JexgyR7BZmb2CDKtXA= Sender: news X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 22:55:52 -0000 I think it is common to use C-PageUp and C-PageDown to move between tabs (for example, Galeon). Is this true? The latest version of GnuCash has tabs, and I'd like to be able to use keyboard navigation to move between them. Note that the tabs have different views using different GTK widgets. Currently, some of the tabs, such as the account tree view, allow C-M-PageUp and C-M-PageDown. Should the developers override the GtkTreeView widget so that C-PageUp and C-PageDown move between the tabs? Should this widget be fixed so that these keystrokes move between tabs by default? Or, something else entirely? I look forward to your thoughts. -- Bill Wohler http://www.newt.com/wohler/ GnuPG ID:610BD9AD Maintainer of comp.mail.mh FAQ and MH-E. If you're passed on the right, you're in the wrong lane. From newren@gmail.com Wed Jun 7 19:18:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDB033B0381 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:18:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22064-05 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:18:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.196]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B32933B019C for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:18:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so308940wxd for ; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 16:18:46 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=TWqobyNh87WUejW4RD35y63ZAvcLUk+QGiLvnvF+KPzTm9RHFZF5VjW7d7y89W/8kJt5+sbkOZFTBJUsJR1d8YM4amj/MEV+YRxnVBediNYQs9Km6z3RNHwua8n60ly83WjGy6d7j97OMrGnJZgPCTD6u1syejJPGylqaWkIzho= Received: by 10.70.73.15 with SMTP id v15mr1343030wxa; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 16:18:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.7 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 16:18:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 17:18:28 -0600 From: "Elijah Newren" To: "Bill Wohler" Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs In-Reply-To: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.575 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.575 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 23:18:49 -0000 On 6/7/06, Bill Wohler wrote: > I think it is common to use C-PageUp and C-PageDown to move between > tabs (for example, Galeon). Is this true? Also used by Mozilla, Firefox, Epiphany, X-Chat, and gnome-terminal, at least. I was planning on adding a keybinding based off it (C-A-PageUp/PageDown) for Metacity for multiscreen (non-xinerama) users to switch the focus between screens (see bug 101659). So, I'd say it's becoming fairly common. Would be nice if there were even greater consistency among apps in this area (gedit, for example, doesn't play along and it took me a while to figure out the keybinding). From Calum.Benson@Sun.COM Wed Jun 7 19:42:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5B033B0E85 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:42:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23635-02 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:42:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D516F3B036A for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:42:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-05.sun.com (d1-emea-05.sun.com [192.18.2.115] (may be forged)) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k57NgGIx020123 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 00:42:16 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-05.sun.com by d1-emea-05.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0I00K01DXE8100@d1-emea-05.sun.com> (original mail from Calum.Benson@Sun.COM) for Usability@gnome.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:42:15 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([194.125.112.30]) by d1-emea-05.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0I00I7RKIFLH30@d1-emea-05.sun.com>; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:42:15 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:42:11 +0100 From: Calum Benson Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs In-reply-to: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> Sender: Calum.Benson@Sun.COM To: Bill Wohler Message-id: <8D893175-CF50-4807-B113-1A7D97A2E36A@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 23:42:20 -0000 On 7 Jun 2006, at 23:55, Bill Wohler wrote: > I think it is common to use C-PageUp and C-PageDown to move between > tabs (for example, Galeon). Is this true? > > The latest version of GnuCash has tabs, and I'd like to be able to use > keyboard navigation to move between them. Note that the tabs have > different views using different GTK widgets. Currently, some of the > tabs, such as the account tree view, allow C-M-PageUp and > C-M-PageDown. > > Should the developers override the GtkTreeView widget so that > C-PageUp and C-PageDown move between the tabs? Should this widget be > fixed so that these keystrokes move between tabs by default? Or, > something else entirely? Well, Ctrl-Alt-PgUp/PgDn is the documented[1] alternative for places that Ctrl-PgUp/PgDn doesn't/can't work (i.e. because of the focused control using Ctrl-PgUp/PgDn itself). Unless we can come up with a plan for avoiding the collisions that require the use of Alt in some situations, I'd recommend sticking with the current consistent-if-a- little-clunky behaviour, rather than overriding it in some places but (inevitably) not others. Cheeri, Calum. [1] http://www.gnome.org/learn/access-guide/latest/ keynav-23.html#keynav-33 -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:calum.benson@sun.com Java Desktop System Team http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems From mpt@myrealbox.com Wed Jun 7 20:08:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 565953B04C8 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 20:08:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24932-06 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 20:08:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from leucothea.redline.site5.com (leucothea.redline.site5.com [216.118.97.161]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A22143B0384 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 20:08:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ool-44c0bc13.dyn.optonline.net ([68.192.188.19] helo=[192.168.0.5]) by leucothea.redline.site5.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.52) id 1Fo84Q-0007No-7s; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 20:08:18 -0400 In-Reply-To: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> References: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <83a57a3908c9daadda5812fafca772a5@myrealbox.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Matthew Paul Thomas Subject: Re: [Usability] Using nouns or verbs for the disclosure widgets Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 20:07:37 -0400 To: Gnome usability X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.623) X-Antivirus-Scanner: This message has been scanned by ClamAV. X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - leucothea.redline.site5.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnome.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - myrealbox.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:08:27 -0000 On Jun 6, 2006, at 8:01 AM, Sebastian Heinlein wrote: > ... > would you recommend to use a noun for the disclosure widgets e.g. > "Details" or verbs e.g. "Show details"/"Hide details"? > ... Hi Sebastian I suggest making the label a summary of the values of the disclosed controls, if practical, not just a description. "Details" is the least informative example of a description, and may be appropriate if you want the expander to be very unobtrusive. But a more informative label may reduce the need for people to expand the section at all. For example, |> Progress details which expands to __ \/ Progress details Time remaining: about 11 minutes Progress: 15 of 29 items Copying: vilanova_presentation.ogg Size: 10.0 MB of 45.0 MB is much less useful than |> Time remaining: about 11 minutes which expands to __ \/ Time remaining: about 11 minutes Progress: 15 of 29 items Copying: vilanova_presentation.ogg Size: 10.0 MB of 45.0 MB Conversely, a more informative label may give a clue of unusual things that you set accidentally, or that you set long ago and then forgot about. For example: __ \/ Custom style sheet (2 rules active) __________________________________________________________ |:link, :visited {text-decoration: underline !important} | |a[href^="javascript:"] {color: green !important} | | | |__________________________________________________________| Switching between "Show Foo" and "Hide Foo" would make the function of the control more obvious, but it would also make the label jump around between collapsed and expanded states. It also would result in ugly repetition where several expander controls were next to each other. For example, repeating "Show" Printing the heading for each in a formatting palette would expandable area by itself is look nasty: much easier to scan: ___________________________ ___________________________ |(X) Formatting (-)| |(X) Formatting (-)| |___________________________| |___________________________| |_>_Show_Font_Settings______| |_>_Font____________________| |_>_Show_Paragraph_Settings_| |_>_Paragraph_______________| |_>_Show_List_Settings______| |_>_List____________________| |_>_Show_Border_Settings____| |_>_Border__________________| |_>_Show_Page_Settings______| |_>_Page____________________| Cheers -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ From nigel.tao.gnome@gmail.com Thu Jun 8 02:08:21 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B93C23B0585 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 02:08:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10570-08 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 02:08:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.229]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8F183B0576 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 02:08:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 50so362302wri for ; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 23:08:17 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=G3ca7jhamDoCoDkkhkKhrUk2Q8C8QWNKTdZLp99+4qZYcnpQa0AU5XGm6ozUs1WCS3EzZwoGN55kTdpnL2dlPPIx9cpa5uYOGLhRDC8u+PuWuWFWj4zh5KNrGruUt74CaE1J7kC758zhIHElrqc9XnBPALEbQIL98Mb9LntRxtE= Received: by 10.64.47.19 with SMTP id u19mr1451658qbu; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 23:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.214.18 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 23:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9188fcea0606072308n35ce5008xcd047c8cd7fca53d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 16:08:16 +1000 From: "Nigel Tao" To: "Elijah Newren" Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs In-Reply-To: <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.569 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.031, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.569 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org, Bill Wohler X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 06:08:21 -0000 > Would be nice if there were even > greater consistency among apps in this area (gedit, for example, > doesn't play along and it took me a while to figure out the > keybinding). Somewhat tangential, I recently wrote a gedit plugin so that C-PageUp and C-PageDown switches between tabs. C-A-PageUp and C-A-PageDown still works, too. http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gedit-list/2006-May/msg00039.html From nudrema@gmail.com Thu Jun 8 02:10:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 508793B0564 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 02:10:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10923-04 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 02:10:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swip.net (mailfe03.swip.net [212.247.154.65]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C74D73B0576 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 02:10:38 -0400 (EDT) X-T2-Posting-ID: Ee7YIbSG3O5rNcT4cGADretWTWrDEjpwS9FwzyhFhzk= X-Cloudmark-Score: 0.000000 [] Received: from [83.182.30.136] (HELO [10.0.0.13]) by mailfe03.swip.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.8) with ESMTP id 217242419 for Usability@gnome.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 08:10:36 +0200 Message-ID: <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 08:10:33 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Steve_Fr=E9cinaux?= User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060522) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.964 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.434, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_NEUTRAL=1.069] X-Spam-Score: -1.964 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 06:10:41 -0000 Elijah Newren wrote: > On 6/7/06, Bill Wohler wrote: >> I think it is common to use C-PageUp and C-PageDown to move between >> tabs (for example, Galeon). Is this true? > > Also used by Mozilla, Firefox, Epiphany, X-Chat, and gnome-terminal, > at least. Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown is the accelerator the HIG recommend for the Gnome desktop. > I was planning on adding a keybinding based off it > (C-A-PageUp/PageDown) for Metacity for multiscreen (non-xinerama) > users to switch the focus between screens (see bug 101659). So, I'd > say it's becoming fairly common. Before doing that remember that Ctrl+Alt+PageUp/PageDown is the fallback shortcut for switching tabs that is used when Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown is not available. It's stated in the HIG (iirc) and is used, for instance, by gedit. > Would be nice if there were even > greater consistency among apps in this area (gedit, for example, > doesn't play along and it took me a while to figure out the > keybinding). Gedit suffers the same problem than Bill's software: the Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown key combination is eaten by GtkTextView, at Gtk level (for going to the next/previous paragraph, iirc). The actual accelerator will be more discoverable in further gedit versions since there is now a menu entry for switching tab (as there is one in epiphany, for instance) From lool+gnome@via.ecp.fr Thu Jun 8 15:47:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 617B03B04B1 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 15:47:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00800-04 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 15:47:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx0.bpl-group.org (mx0.bpl-group.org [195.115.71.69]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D15523B0766 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 15:47:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bee.dooz.org (levallois.dooz.org [81.57.180.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "lminier.people.bpl-group.org", Issuer "BPL Group People Certification Authority" (verified OK)) by mx0.bpl-group.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BDAEC4C9; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 21:47:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: by bee.dooz.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4E5D24F02FA; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 21:47:22 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 21:47:22 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lo=EFc?= Minier To: usability@gnome.org, 371882@bugs.debian.org Message-ID: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.575 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.024, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.575 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 19:47:33 -0000 Hi, Michael Gilbert (michael.s.gilbert -at- gmail.com) explained his experience when introducing GNOME to people otherwise running Windows in Debian bug http://bugs.debian.org/371882: """ at work the other day a couple windows-locked coworkers of mine were attempting to use a fedora system. they were attempting to figure out if a particular application was available on the system. they had no idea where to go to do a file search (they expected it to be in the start menu, but gave up after they found it wasn't under applications). so then they tried nautilus, but couldn't figure out where to go. they dropped down to / where they were even more dumbfounded. a comment was "what are all these directories and how am i supposed to find anything in this mess." i suggested looking in /usr/local and /opt but both came up empty. i suggested that they try the search under the gnome places menu, at which point they were able to find some similarity to their expectations. at first they used the defaults and only searched in their home directory (inadvertently assuming that the file must not be on the disk even though their search path was too limited), at which point i said you should search from the / directory. they opened the gnome file selector, and could not figure out how to pick / (in fact they didn't understand the concept of /, or how it relates to something like c:). i also didn't know how to select / directly from the gnome file selector this, but eventually figured out if you select the topmost directory breakout at the top of the file selector that you will get / as your selection. this is very non-obvious and needs to be fixed. so they tried their search, which completed *way* too fast for their expectations (likely because they are used to windows searches taking significant time to search an entire disk because file lists are not cached as scrollkeeper does). so i did a "find / | grep fname" which also came up empty to indicate to them that indeed the file they were looking for was not on the system. at one point another comment was "it seems like they do things differently just to be different," referring to the gnome desktop in general vs windows. anyway, hope you can find some useful bits from the mindset virgin gnome users. need more details? just ask. """ I initially tried opening a discussion at , but was suggested that this list would be a better place. (Please keep 371882@bdo in copy and add 371882-submitter@bdo if you want to copy Michael Gilbert.) Bye, -- Loïc Minier From bjourne@gmail.com Fri Jun 9 11:32:25 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E57533B0147 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:32:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02538-08 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:32:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.207]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E55FB3B02F7 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:32:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so654060wxd for ; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 08:32:21 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=McMsr9UbsQrkheYyfxiAcapOm/Xuc8Of7xlng/xz9cIKh1tbNMbqtyQLEGG11aQZzS4UMFABCCwUeMApOsqGEyjlKyNjv31WRTSfb8ug64jiJ6+CK1KrhYm1K4yxwDY7xqzGIerl00hQwi6n43htIWUBOSyNAcATL6NHQDUEG4A= Received: by 10.70.62.1 with SMTP id k1mr3581069wxa; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 08:32:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.115.6 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 08:32:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:32:19 +0200 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?BJ=F6rn_Lindqvist?=" To: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs In-Reply-To: <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.496 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.027, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001, TW_MV=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.496 X-Spam-Level: Cc: X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 15:32:25 -0000 > Gedit suffers the same problem than Bill's software: the > Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown key combination is eaten by GtkTextView, at Gtk > level (for going to the next/previous paragraph, iirc). The actual Wouldn't the right solution then be to fix GtkTextView so that it doesn't steal Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown? --=20 mvh Bj=F6rn From gnome-Usability@m.gmane.org Fri Jun 9 11:50:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 009143B032D for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:50:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03783-02 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:50:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE4163B024A for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:50:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1FojFO-00052n-5Z for Usability@gnome.org; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 17:50:06 +0200 Received: from h-68-165-4-198.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.4.198]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 17:50:06 +0200 Received: from wohler by h-68-165-4-198.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 17:50:06 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: Usability@gnome.org From: Bill Wohler Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 08:49:10 -0700 Organization: Newt Software Lines: 15 Message-ID: <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: h-68-165-4-198.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:rY1IfAkLd+KrTmPRanzn/dE9Bdc= Sender: news X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: [Usability] Re: Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 15:50:33 -0000 "BJörn Lindqvist" writes: >> Gedit suffers the same problem than Bill's software: the >> Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown key combination is eaten by GtkTextView, at Gtk >> level (for going to the next/previous paragraph, iirc). The actual > > Wouldn't the right solution then be to fix GtkTextView so that it > doesn't steal Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown? And GtkTreeView and possibly others. That's what I was thinking. Doable? -- Bill Wohler http://www.newt.com/wohler/ GnuPG ID:610BD9AD Maintainer of comp.mail.mh FAQ and MH-E. If you're passed on the right, you're in the wrong lane. From Calum.Benson@Sun.COM Fri Jun 9 11:59:21 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D20323B02F7 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:59:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04251-01 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:59:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD6AD3B024A for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:59:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-01.sun.com ([192.18.2.111]) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k59FxGjj008284 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:59:18 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-01.sun.com by d1-emea-01.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0L00D01NQKYK00@d1-emea-01.sun.com> (original mail from Calum.Benson@Sun.COM) for Usability@gnome.org; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:59:16 +0100 (BST) Received: from vpn-129-150-116-25.UK.Sun.COM ([129.150.116.25]) by d1-emea-01.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0L008BXOER2330@d1-emea-01.sun.com>; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:59:16 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:59:14 +0100 From: Calum Benson Subject: Re: [Usability] Re: Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs In-reply-to: <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> Sender: Calum.Benson@Sun.COM To: Bill Wohler Message-id: <1149868755.7852.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Organization: Sun Microsystems Ireland Ltd. MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.582 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.582 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 15:59:22 -0000 On Fri, 2006-06-09 at 08:49 -0700, Bill Wohler wrote: > "BJörn Lindqvist" writes: > > >> Gedit suffers the same problem than Bill's software: the > >> Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown key combination is eaten by GtkTextView, at Gtk > >> level (for going to the next/previous paragraph, iirc). The actual > > > > Wouldn't the right solution then be to fix GtkTextView so that it > > doesn't steal Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown? > > And GtkTreeView and possibly others. That's what I was thinking. Doable? More than likely, but only if you can suggest alternative keybindings for those existing TextView/TreeView functions that are sufficiently consistent/discoverable. Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:calum.benson@sun.com Java Desktop System Group http://ie.sun.com +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems From gnome-Usability@m.gmane.org Fri Jun 9 12:19:37 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ECF33B1112 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 12:19:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05786-06 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 12:19:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FC813B1120 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 12:19:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1FojhH-0003Ev-L0 for Usability@gnome.org; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 18:18:55 +0200 Received: from h-68-165-4-198.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.4.198]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 18:18:55 +0200 Received: from wohler by h-68-165-4-198.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 18:18:55 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: Usability@gnome.org From: Bill Wohler Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 09:18:45 -0700 Organization: Newt Software Lines: 27 Message-ID: <87slme715m.fsf@olgas.newt.com> References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <1149868755.7852.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: h-68-165-4-198.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:BstvWzstfMaA5FgcQdtcEdthMak= Sender: news X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.597 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.004, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.597 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: [Usability] Re: Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:19:37 -0000 Calum Benson writes: > On Fri, 2006-06-09 at 08:49 -0700, Bill Wohler wrote: >> "BJörn Lindqvist" writes: >> >> >> Gedit suffers the same problem than Bill's software: the >> >> Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown key combination is eaten by GtkTextView, at Gtk >> >> level (for going to the next/previous paragraph, iirc). The actual >> > >> > Wouldn't the right solution then be to fix GtkTextView so that it >> > doesn't steal Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown? >> >> And GtkTreeView and possibly others. That's what I was thinking. Doable? > > More than likely, but only if you can suggest alternative keybindings > for those existing TextView/TreeView functions that are sufficiently > consistent/discoverable. Well, I tried C-PageUp/Down in the GtkTreeView widget (in GnuCash), and I have no idea what it's doing. It's sort of like PageUp/Down, but it doesn't move the screen the same amount. Suffice to say, I would not mourn its loss. -- Bill Wohler http://www.newt.com/wohler/ GnuPG ID:610BD9AD Maintainer of comp.mail.mh FAQ and MH-E. If you're passed on the right, you're in the wrong lane. From mpt@myrealbox.com Fri Jun 9 16:56:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC7DA3B01AB for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:56:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20116-10 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:56:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from leucothea.redline.site5.com (leucothea.redline.site5.com [216.118.97.161]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11A453B0122 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:56:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ool-44c0bc13.dyn.optonline.net ([68.192.188.19] helo=[192.168.0.5]) by leucothea.redline.site5.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.52) id 1Foo1c-00028w-53; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:56:12 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> References: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Matthew Paul Thomas Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:38:35 -0400 To: Gnome usability X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.623) X-Antivirus-Scanner: This message has been scanned by ClamAV. X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - leucothea.redline.site5.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnome.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - myrealbox.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Cc: michael.s.gilbert@gmail.com X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 20:56:18 -0000 On Jun 8, 2006, at 3:47 PM, Lo=EFc Minier wrote: > ... > """ > at work the other day a couple windows-locked coworkers of mine were > attempting to use a fedora system. they were attempting to figure out > if a particular application was available on the system. they had no > idea where to go to do a file search (they expected it to be in the > start menu, but gave up after they found it wasn't under = applications). Hardly surprising: a file search definitely isn't a "place". It's not=20 an application either, but at least "Applications" looks vaguely like a=20= Start menu. > so then they tried nautilus, but couldn't figure out where to go. =20 > they dropped down to / where they were even more dumbfounded. a=20 > comment was "what are all these directories and how am i supposed to=20= > find anything in this mess." That problem will continue until Fedora begins using human-readable=20 directory names (like GoboLinux, Mac OS, and Windows all do to varying=20= extents). > ... > i suggested that they try the search under the gnome places menu, at > which point they were able to find some similarity to their > expectations. at first they used the defaults and only searched in > their home directory (inadvertently assuming that the file must not be > on the disk even though their search path was too limited), Again, they were right and the OS was wrong. The default should be to=20 search everything you can access, just like in Web search engines,=20 because (a) you are likely to be searching for programs, which usually=20= aren't in your home folder, and (b) searching everything will usually=20 be quicker (as you suggested later) than choosing a correct scope then=20= searching within that. > at which point i said you should search from the / directory. they=20 > opened the gnome file selector, and could not figure out how to pick /=20= > (in fact they didn't understand the concept of /, or how it relates to=20= > something like c:). i also didn't know how to select / directly from=20= > the gnome file selector this, but eventually figured out if you select=20= > the topmost directory breakout at the top of the file selector that=20= > you will get / as your selection. this is very non-obvious and needs=20= > to be fixed. Fortunately the dialog doesn't use the inscrutable "/" terminology, but=20= "File System" isn't much better, and the icon for it seems to be a=20 harmonica. Unfortunately there isn't really any good name for=20 "collection of obscurely-named things that has your files hidden in it=20= somewhere, and your programs in it spread across several other places,=20= but which can't be called your hard disk because it has your other=20 drives hidden inside it too". > so they tried their search, which completed *way* too fast for their > expectations (likely because they are used to windows searches taking > significant time to search an entire disk because file lists are not > cached as scrollkeeper does). > ... This is a bug in that while the Find tool tells you "No files found",=20 it does not mention what it was searching for, so there is no way to=20 distinguish between a search that has finished with no results and one=20= that hasn't started yet. Thanks for your interesting report. --=20 Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/= From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Sun Jun 11 11:05:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C6083B0088 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 11:05:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15678-04 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 11:05:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AB3C83B0084 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 11:05:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 11 Jun 2006 16:04:32 +0100 (BST) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 16:04:32 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lo=EFc?= Minier Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" In-Reply-To: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> Message-ID: References: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 15:05:20 -0000 On Thu, 8 Jun 2006, [iso-8859-1] Lo=EFc Minier wrote: > Michael Gilbert (michael.s.gilbert -at- gmail.com) explained his > experience when introducing GNOME to people otherwise running Windows in > Debian bug http://bugs.debian.org/371882: > """ > at work the other day a couple windows-locked coworkers of mine were > attempting to use a fedora system. they were attempting to figure out > if a particular application was available on the system. I do think things would be easier for windows users (in fact easier than windows) if Gnome were using a single main menu on the bottom left corner which is what Novell are doing. Strangely enough it was Novell/Ximian who proposed the two panel layout in the first place even though they have since abandoned it (this was discussed quite recently but I dont expect the two panel layout to go away anytime soon). The run dialog can be useful in this case. If you know the application name and type it in then if it is installed the icon will appear in the dialog and when you hit okay the application will run. If you do not know the application name (why not?) the run dialog (or some versions of it at least) have an expander which opens to show a flat list of available applications. I cannot say about Debian but while using Ubuntu I did notice I sometimes applications do not appear in menus right after you install them but a logout and log back in usually sorts that out. I'm trying to think why you might need to search for these applications in the first place rather than choose from what is available in the menus. A package manager like Synaptic might be a good way to check what programs are installed, it also includes a search tool. > idea where to go to do a file search (they expected it to be in the > start menu, but gave up after they found it wasn't under applications). A file search is intended for documents and other user files If you are looking for programs you are not expected to use the file search. > so then they tried nautilus, but couldn't figure out where to go. they > dropped down to / where they were even more dumbfounded. a comment was > "what are all these directories and how am i supposed to find anything > in this mess." Not much change from Microsoft then. ;P > i suggested looking in /usr/local and /opt but both came up empty. If you have given up on the Desktop and had to resort to the command line then a good way to find things is using the "locate" utitlity. When hunting for programs the command "apropos" can be very useful too (especially on BSD where the man pages are better). > i suggested that they try the search under the gnome places menu, at > which point they were able to find some similarity to their > expectations. at first they used the defaults and only searched in > their home directory (inadvertently assuming that the file must not be > on the disk even though their search path was too limited), at which > point i said you should search from the / directory. they opened the > gnome file selector, and could not figure out how to pick / (in fact > they didn't understand the concept of /, or how it relates to something > like c:). i also didn't know how to select / directly from the gnome > file selector this, but eventually figured out if you select the topmost > directory breakout at the top of the file selector that you will get / > as your selection. this is very non-obvious and needs to be fixed. so > they tried their search, which completed *way* too fast for their > expectations (likely because they are used to windows searches taking > significant time to search an entire disk because file lists are not > cached as scrollkeeper does). so i did a "find / | grep fname" which > also came up empty to indicate to them that indeed the file they were > looking for was not on the system. > > at one point another comment was "it seems like they do things > differently just to be different," referring to the gnome desktop in > general vs windows. *cough* *cough* splutter! Understatement. Things have gotten better and are getting better all the time, file bugs where you see them. At least horrible anachronisms like the "Druid dialogs" are on the way out (that really was a case of being different from Wizards just for the sake of being different). Sincerely Alan Horkan Inkscape http://inkscape.org Abiword http://www.abisource.com Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/ From Calum.Benson@Sun.COM Tue Jun 13 12:08:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B31DC3B000A for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:08:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29211-06 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:08:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0934E3B000C for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:08:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-10.sun.com (d1-emea-10.sun.com [192.18.2.120] (may be forged)) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5DG73iU003213 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:07:03 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-10.sun.com by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0T00B013ET6M00@d1-emea-10.sun.com> (original mail from Calum.Benson@Sun.COM) for Usability@gnome.org; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:07:03 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([129.150.116.239]) by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0T00H9Z3FRHT70@d1-emea-10.sun.com>; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:07:03 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:06:57 +0100 From: Calum Benson Subject: Re: [Usability] Re: Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs In-reply-to: <17538.1149869665@olgas.newt.com> Sender: Calum.Benson@Sun.COM To: Bill Wohler Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <1149868755.7852.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <17538.1149869665@olgas.newt.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.582 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.582 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 16:08:13 -0000 On 9 Jun 2006, at 17:14, Bill Wohler wrote: > > Well, I tried C-PageUp/Down in the GtkTreeView widget (in GnuCash), > and > I have no idea what it's doing. In a tree view, Ctrl+PgUp/PgDn should be moving focus to the item at the top or bottom of the current view; in other controls, it's the shortcut for scrolling left/right: http://www.gnome.org/learn/access-guide/latest/keynav-23.html#keynav-35 If it's doing something else, it's either a bug, or it's been over- ridden by a developer who thinks they know better :) Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:calum.benson@sun.com Java Desktop System Team http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems From Calum.Benson@Sun.COM Wed Jun 14 13:26:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F32D3B0156 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 13:26:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26510-02 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 13:26:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60F1D3B0135 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 13:26:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-02.sun.com (d1-emea-02.sun.com [192.18.2.112] (may be forged)) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5EHPMb5010739 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 18:25:22 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-02.sun.com by d1-emea-02.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0V00K011HFZ600@d1-emea-02.sun.com> (original mail from Calum.Benson@Sun.COM) for Usability@gnome.org; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 18:25:22 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([129.150.116.135]) by d1-emea-02.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0V00FZN1Q9TE10@d1-emea-02.sun.com>; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 18:25:22 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 18:25:16 +0100 From: Calum Benson In-reply-to: <3515.1150215756@olgas.newt.com> Sender: Calum.Benson@Sun.COM To: Bill Wohler Message-id: <645F3922-742E-4B5E-8D69-37D56C69E503@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <1149868755.7852.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <17538.1149869665@olgas.newt.com> <3515.1150215756@olgas.newt.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.583 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.015, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.583 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 17:26:46 -0000 On 13 Jun 2006, at 17:22, Bill Wohler wrote: > Calum Benson wrote: > >> On 9 Jun 2006, at 17:14, Bill Wohler wrote: >>> >>> Well, I tried C-PageUp/Down in the GtkTreeView widget (in GnuCash), >>> and I have no idea what it's doing. >> >> In a tree view, Ctrl+PgUp/PgDn should be moving focus to the item at >> the top or bottom of the current view; in other controls, it's the >> shortcut for scrolling left/right: >> >> http://www.gnome.org/learn/access-guide/latest/ >> keynav-23.html#keynav-35 >> >> If it's doing something else, it's either a bug, or it's been over- >> ridden by a developer who thinks they know better :) > > Thanks, Calum. Well, that's not what I'm seeing. A GnuCash developer > told me that he wouldn't overwrite the GtkTreeView bindings to allow > C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs so it's unlikely that it has been > overridden. A puzzler indeed. I'll mention this to the developers. > > I still think that the HIG should specify C-PageUp/Down for moving > between tabs and that other widgets should not use this binding. I'd agree that this has been a bugbear long enough that we should probably try a bit harder to fix it properly. The controls that use Ctrl+PgUp/PgDn just to move focus could possibly just do without (by default, at least); you can always hit Ctrl+up/down a few times instead. The ones that use them for scrolling left/right might be trickier, but I'll need to try and put together a complete list before I try and figure something out. Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:calum.benson@sun.com Java Desktop System Team http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems From michael.s.gilbert@gmail.com Fri Jun 16 22:20:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D0D43B033A for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2006 22:20:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32034-02 for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2006 22:20:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.196]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC9A03B02DB for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2006 22:20:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id h29so524273wxd for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2006 19:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.52.10 with SMTP id z10mr4997505wxz; Fri, 16 Jun 2006 19:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.65.5 with HTTP; Fri, 16 Jun 2006 19:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <8e2a98be0606161919x9a20c7dld5fc3a4715960f2b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 22:19:21 -0400 From: "Michael Gilbert" To: horkana@maths.tcd.ie In-Reply-To: <8e2a98be0606161901j5c6edfdcj3acd734a2ee19751@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> <8e2a98be0606111426w7d6407fdj68c34573295b317@mail.gmail.com> <8e2a98be0606161901j5c6edfdcj3acd734a2ee19751@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 09:59:24 -0400 Cc: usability@gnome.org, 371882@bugs.debian.org Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 02:20:40 -0000 Alan Horkan wrote: >The run dialog can be useful in this case. If you know the application >name and type it in then if it is installed the icon will appear in the >dialog and when you hit okay the application will run. If you do not know >the application name (why not?) the run dialog (or some versions of it at >least) have an expander which opens to show a flat list of available >applications. The users were having trouble finding a "find files" application in the applications menu. The did not even attempt to find the program they were looking for in the applications menu. >A package manager like Synaptic might be a good way to check what programs >are installed, it also includes a search tool. Synaptic is a confusing mess. If I were a new user, I would totally avoid it. I still avoid it...but only because I apt-get is so much easier and direct. > A file search is intended for documents and other user files > If you are looking for programs you are not expected to use the file > search. I don't think we should be in the game of telling the user how she is to use her computer. We should be making it as intuitive and broadly useful for the user to user her computer. If she expects to search for executables or system files (due to her poor os upbringing) then it should be perfectly reasonable and obvious for her to do so. we should not be forcing anyone to learn the unix way (find and locate). well maybe it would be useful for the find dialog to say something like, this is what i'm doing 'find / 2>/dev/null | grep fname' click here to learn more about how to use the power of the unix shell to enhance your computing expertise. thanks you for your thoughts. mike From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Sun Jun 18 13:08:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A9E93B0BF5 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 13:08:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04550-02 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 13:08:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 128B53B00B2 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 13:08:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 18 Jun 2006 18:07:14 +0100 (BST) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 18:07:14 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <8e2a98be0606161919x9a20c7dld5fc3a4715960f2b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: References: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> <8e2a98be0606111426w7d6407fdj68c34573295b317@mail.gmail.com> <8e2a98be0606161901j5c6edfdcj3acd734a2ee19751@mail.gmail.com> <8e2a98be0606161919x9a20c7dld5fc3a4715960f2b@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 17:08:12 -0000 [Removed CC's.] On Fri, 16 Jun 2006, Michael Gilbert wrote: > Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 22:19:21 -0400 > From: Michael Gilbert > To: horkana@maths.tcd.ie > Cc: 371882@bugs.debian.org, usability@gnome.org > Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes > with gnome virgins" > > Alan Horkan wrote: > >The run dialog can be useful in this case. If you know the application > >name and type it in then if it is installed the icon will appear in the > >dialog and when you hit okay the application will run. If you do not know > >the application name (why not?) the run dialog (or some versions of it at > >least) have an expander which opens to show a flat list of available > >applications. > > The users were having trouble finding a "find files" application in > the applications menu. The did not even attempt to find the program > they were looking for in the applications menu. Accomodating users is one thing but it is difficult to help users who are unwilling to even look through the Applications menu. Having said that Novell have their own redesigned setup (which may already be available) which does in fact include a search widget directly in the main menu. Mockups can be seen here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/gamehack/sets/1506658/ > >A package manager like Synaptic might be a good way to check what programs > >are installed, it also includes a search tool. > > Synaptic is a confusing mess. I see you added Debian to the CC list, since Synaptic is a Debian only program not Gnome I will let them comment. > avoid it. I still avoid it...but only because I apt-get is so much > easier and direct. Ubuntu inlcude a simpler frontend to Synaptic which makes things easier for basic adding and removing of programs, you might want to try it. > > A file search is intended for documents and other user files > > > If you are looking for programs you are not expected to use the file > > search. > > I don't think we should be in the game of telling the user how she is > to use her computer. I dont disagree. I was describing how thing are and how best to work around them rather than the ideal situation. The _intention_ of the designers was that find tool would be for finding documents rather than programs. > We should be making it as intuitive and broadly useful for the user to > user her computer. If she expects to search for executables or system > files (due to her poor os upbringing) then it should be perfectly > reasonable and obvious for her to do so. we should not be forcing > anyone to learn the unix way (find and locate). Since you had already given up on the graphical user interface I was explaining how to get more out of the command line, I would not have mentioned it otherwise and I believe if a user feels like they "need" to user the command line the real issue is the Desktop needs to be improved. > well maybe it would be useful for the find dialog to say something like, > this is what i'm doing 'find / 2>/dev/null | grep fname' click here to It is good to try and find ways to reduce the learning curve of the command line but I'm not sure this idea would really work well as part of the graphical user interface. I do think it would be great to have a page in the documentation of the Find tool explaining or introducing the command line alternatives. > learn more about how to use the power of the unix shell to enhance your > computing expertise. > > thanks you for your thoughts. Sincerely Alan Horkan Inkscape http://inkscape.org Abiword http://www.abisource.com Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/ From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Mon Jun 19 02:45:53 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C6963B0D43 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 02:45:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28820-04 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 02:45:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.203]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3E4573B0DC0 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 02:45:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 55516 invoked by uid 60001); 19 Jun 2006 06:45:00 -0000 Message-ID: <20060619064500.55514.qmail@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.215.111.236] by web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 07:45:00 BST Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 07:45:00 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Alan Horkan In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.667 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.715, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.667 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 06:45:53 -0000 --- Alan Horkan wrote: > It is good to try and find ways to reduce the > learning curve of the > command line but I'm not sure this idea would really > work well as part of > the graphical user interface. I do think it would > be great to have a page > in the documentation of the Find tool explaining or > introducing the > command line alternatives. I think the find tool docs briefly mention which unix commands are used behind the GUI. However, is the find tool made redundant by the new Nautilus searching? And if not, how are the two meant to work together? ___________________________________________________________ Try the all-new Yahoo! Mail. "The New Version is radically easier to use" – The Wall Street Journal http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Mon Jun 19 18:53:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC2903B02BD for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 18:53:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05746-09 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 18:53:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 653113B0105 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 18:53:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 19 Jun 2006 23:51:42 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 23:51:41 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20060619064500.55514.qmail@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: References: <20060619064500.55514.qmail@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:53:07 -0000 On Mon, 19 Jun 2006, Joachim Noreiko wrote: > > be great to have a page > > in the documentation of the Find tool explaining or > > introducing the > > command line alternatives. > > I think the find tool docs briefly mention which unix > commands are used behind the GUI. good to know > However, is the find tool made redundant by the new > Nautilus searching? And if not, how are the two meant > to work together? I doubt it. I'd expect the find tool to include more advanced options and for the built in tool to keep it simple. There might also be issues with the underlying technologies (Beagle?). I don't know for sure. -- Alan H. From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Tue Jun 20 03:34:38 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81B703B027D for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 03:34:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32616-04 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 03:34:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.202]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AA7EC3B0279 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 03:34:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 32953 invoked by uid 60001); 20 Jun 2006 07:33:12 -0000 Message-ID: <20060620073312.32951.qmail@web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.203.12.149] by web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:33:12 BST Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:33:12 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Alan Horkan In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.471 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.519, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.471 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: [Usability] Two types of find (Was: search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins") X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 07:34:38 -0000 --- Alan Horkan wrote: > > > However, is the find tool made redundant by the > new > > Nautilus searching? And if not, how are the two > meant > > to work together? > > I doubt it. I'd expect the find tool to include > more advanced options and > for the built in tool to keep it simple. There > might also be issues > with the underlying technologies (Beagle?). I don't > know for sure. Sure, I can see that operationally there are reasons to have both tool. But with our user hats on for a second -- why are there two find tools, accessed in different ways, with different-looking interfaces? It's confusing, and doesn't give off the joined-up feel that GNOME should have. So -- how can we join them up? ___________________________________________________________ The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html From mystilleef@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:03:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1667E3B058E for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:03:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10655-07 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:03:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.173]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D3AD3B0584 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:03:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id o2so3184611uge for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:03:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.67.103.7 with SMTP id f7mr3463065ugm; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:03:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.15 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:03:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:03:43 -0400 From: Mystilleef To: Usability@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.647 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.605, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.558, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.647 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:03:48 -0000 Hello, My application is a GUI designed especially for GNOME. Thus, when my application is launched, I register it with the GNOME libraries and then instruct the kernel to create a separate process for the application. The procedure is called forking. The effect of this is that when my application is launched from a shell terminal, the kernel detaches it from the shell terminal's process, therefore making the application run in its own process. Apparently, this has offended some geeks who argue I am breaking some pointless UNIX convention. Their argument is that most (GNOME) applications do not detach from the shell terminal when run from it. And by detaching from the terminal, not only am I creating inconsistencies, but also creating an element of surprise. My response is that this behavior is a hold back from the days when UNIX had no GUI and when almost all applications that ran on it were console applications. The only environment a console application can run in is in a shell environment. That is why console applications have every right to "hug" the shell terminal. Also blocking the shell terminal is the only way console applications can recieve input from users. Graphic user applications, especially the ones designed for "desktop environments" have virtually no reason to be bound to a shell terminal's process. In particular, the only environment a GNOME application should be bound to is the GNOME desktop environment. And I believe you do that by registering with the GNOME and/or freedesktop libraries. In fact, I argue it is bad practice for GUI applications to be bound to a shell terminals process because if the terminal's process dies for any reason the application(s) bound to that terminal dies along with it. In my early linux years, I have lost documents this way. I launched several via the shell terminal, and then I forgetfully or accidentally close the shell terminal's window. Miraculously, all my applications disappear. Also, most graphic user applications are not console applications and as such the life-cycle of such applications should not be determined or controlled or constrained by shell terminal's process running in the sight of users that can easily be killed accidentally or otherwise. The geeks' counter responses ranged from questioning my competence as a shell terminal user, to suggestions to reconfigure my shell properties, to changing my shell environment, to connecting my application to the kernel's KILL signal so it can save its state before dying, among several funny comments. In fact, there's only one reason to provide an option for not detaching. Some console applications may need to pipe their result to my application. And my application needs to be connected to the shell's process for that to be happen successfully. There are many other silly UNIX conventions that are a hold back from yesteryears which bite us in the behind today. I recommend the "UNIX Haters Handbook" for an exhaustive listing. Yet many people religiously clinge to them without reason. I feel this issue is one them. Is it advisable to encourage developers via the HIG to avoid hugging the terminal. I mean, apart from the fact that it is just pointless especially for GUI apps, there's also the possibility of losing applications bound to the terminal's process when the terminal quits for whatever reasons. And why on earth would anyone want to bind a GUI app to the process of another user visible application? I bring this up here because the geeks say I am trying to "fix" the problem the wrong way. They insist that the problem, if at all it is one should be "fixed" at a global level outside my application. I'm guessing perhaps at a library level. So, I welcome your comments and thought on the issue. My opinion is that the default behavior for GUI applications, GNOME in particular, is to detach from the shell terminal, while an option to prevent detachment should be provided for those who need it. A positive side effect of my suggestion is that it frees the terminal to be used by other applications designed for terminal usage. Cheers From mike@mike-burns.com Tue Jun 20 16:18:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C7FF3B0073 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:18:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11690-09 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:18:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mike-burns.com (mike-burns.com [64.105.111.66]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D9DC3B03DC for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:18:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mike by mike-burns.com with local (Exim 4.61 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1FsmgE-000I4J-6W; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:18:34 -0400 Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:18:34 -0400 From: Mike Burns To: Mystilleef Message-ID: <20060620201834.GA68180@gaping.mike-burns.com> Mail-Followup-To: Mystilleef , Usability@gnome.org References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:18:47 -0000 On 2006-06-20 16.03.43 -0400, Mystilleef wrote: > Graphic user applications, especially the ones designed for "desktop > environments" have virtually no reason to be bound to a shell terminal's > process. How many users who run the program in question run it from the terminal instead of the applications menu, panel, Alt+F2, or a hotkey? How many who run it from the terminal aren't shell experts who know about stuff like '&'? -- Mike Burns mike@mike-burns.com http://mike-burns.com From mystilleef@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:32:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E672F3B00B7 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:32:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12123-10 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:32:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.203]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59AB63B0155 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:32:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id t12so532169wxc for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.126.15 with SMTP id y15mr11029362wxc; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:32:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.15 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:32:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9605403b0606201332r169394a3mdad3a6a12da9115f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:32:14 -0400 From: Mystilleef To: Mystilleef , Usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20060620201834.GA68180@gaping.mike-burns.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <20060620201834.GA68180@gaping.mike-burns.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.256 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.344, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.256 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:32:18 -0000 I can't really say how many users run it from the terminal or from the menu. But it seems a few do run it from the terminal. Of course, on UNIX -like systems it is not uncommon to run applications from the terminal. And depending on your shell environment "&" does not detach applications from the shell's process. Apparently, for BASH, there is "disown" command for that. But I don't believe proficiency in BASH or shell wizardry should be a requirement for using applications designed for GNOME. On 6/20/06, Mike Burns wrote: > On 2006-06-20 16.03.43 -0400, Mystilleef wrote: > > Graphic user applications, especially the ones designed for "desktop > > environments" have virtually no reason to be bound to a shell terminal's > > process. > > How many users who run the program in question run it from the terminal > instead of the applications menu, panel, Alt+F2, or a hotkey? How many who > run it from the terminal aren't shell experts who know about stuff like '&'? > > -- > Mike Burns mike@mike-burns.com http://mike-burns.com > From alleykat@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:34:14 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A4B23B00B7 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:34:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12708-01 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:34:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.206]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A35193B009C for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:34:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 9so2684307nzo for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.12.45 with SMTP id p45mr9469143nzi; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.252.20 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:34:11 -0500 From: "Travis Watkins" To: Mystilleef In-Reply-To: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.379 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.221, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.379 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:34:14 -0000 On 6/20/06, Mystilleef wrote: > Graphic user applications, especially the ones designed for "desktop > environments" have virtually no reason to be bound to a shell terminal's > process. How are we supposed to get the debug output from those GNOME libraries you use? -- Travis Watkins http://www.realistanew.com From mystilleef@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:41:17 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BA943B0280 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:41:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13017-03 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:41:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.201]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEA573B01AF for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:41:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id h29so1020572wxd for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.52.10 with SMTP id z10mr11092861wxz; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:41:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.15 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:41:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9605403b0606201341w12b56135o2b6da3fd50709fa9@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:41:10 -0400 From: Mystilleef To: Usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <9605403b0606201339k12f232dfl57e73b92b2ee2cf5@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <9605403b0606201339k12f232dfl57e73b92b2ee2cf5@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.331 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.269, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.331 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Usability] Fwd: GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:41:17 -0000 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Mystilleef Date: Jun 20, 2006 4:39 PM Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment To: Travis Watkins On 6/20/06, Travis Watkins wrote: > On 6/20/06, Mystilleef wrote: > > Graphic user applications, especially the ones designed for "desktop > > environments" have virtually no reason to be bound to a shell terminal's > > process. > > How are we supposed to get the debug output from those GNOME libraries you use? > > -- > Travis Watkins > http://www.realistanew.com > You can print to stderr, which will display the debug output in the terminal the application was launched in, or you can print to a log file. Or maybe I didn't understand the question well enough? From mystilleef@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:45:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 130903B041C for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:45:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13208-05 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:45:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.198]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFC9C3B041A for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:45:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id t12so100wxc for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.24.3 with SMTP id 3mr11074250wxx; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.15 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9605403b0606201344s4adf74d5l893e43b608b993ba@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:44:52 -0400 From: Mystilleef To: "Travis Watkins" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <9605403b0606201339k12f232dfl57e73b92b2ee2cf5@mail.gmail.com> <9605403b0606201341w12b56135o2b6da3fd50709fa9@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.384 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.216, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.384 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Fwd: GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:45:20 -0000 On 6/20/06, Travis Watkins wrote: > On 6/20/06, Mystilleef wrote: > > You can print to stderr, which will display the debug output in the > > terminal the application was launched in, or you can print to a log > > file. Or maybe I didn't understand the question well enough? > > If you've separated from the terminal does outputting to stderr still > send output to said terminal? > > -- > Travis Watkins > http://www.realistanew.com > Yes, it does. From alleykat@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:50:05 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 374563B053D for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:50:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13567-03 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.195]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59FD03B04FC for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 16so1448nzp for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:50:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.91.2 with SMTP id o2mr3791224nzb; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:43:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.252.20 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:43:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:43:55 -0500 From: "Travis Watkins" To: Mystilleef In-Reply-To: <9605403b0606201341w12b56135o2b6da3fd50709fa9@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <9605403b0606201339k12f232dfl57e73b92b2ee2cf5@mail.gmail.com> <9605403b0606201341w12b56135o2b6da3fd50709fa9@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.384 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.216, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.384 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Fwd: GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:50:05 -0000 On 6/20/06, Mystilleef wrote: > You can print to stderr, which will display the debug output in the > terminal the application was launched in, or you can print to a log > file. Or maybe I didn't understand the question well enough? If you've separated from the terminal does outputting to stderr still send output to said terminal? -- Travis Watkins http://www.realistanew.com From ross@burtonini.com Wed Jun 21 04:29:05 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A27E93B0821 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:29:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21500-06 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:28:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65EB43B002A for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:28:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from burtonini.com (althur.gotadsl.co.uk [84.12.135.175]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBDB028C6D7; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:28:40 +0100 (BST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (ident=unknown) by burtonini.com with esmtp (masqmail 0.2.21) id 1Fsy4m-51o-00; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:28:40 +0100 From: Ross Burton To: Mystilleef In-Reply-To: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-hHw0K+ovPQXh+ENRGLBc" Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:28:40 +0100 Message-Id: <1150878520.12957.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.457 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.457 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:29:05 -0000 --=-hHw0K+ovPQXh+ENRGLBc Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 2006-06-20 at 16:03 -0400, Mystilleef wrote: > My application is a GUI designed especially for GNOME. Thus, when my > application is launched, I register it with the GNOME libraries and then > instruct the kernel to create a separate process for the application. > The procedure is called forking. The effect of this is that when my > application is launched from a shell terminal, the kernel detaches it > from the shell terminal's process, therefore making the application run > in its own process. There are plenty of situations where this behaviour is exactly not what I want, and not forking doesn't hurt anyone. The panel, run dialog and so on spawn processes so they are not bound to anything (you can demonstrate this by running a program from the panel and then killing the panel). Primary use case for not forking is that it makes it trivial to write a script that launches a program, user does something in it, and then the script can continue when the program has exited. If Gedit forked when it started I wouldn't be able to use it as $EDITOR in cvs commit for example. Why break this use case because you think that forking is useful, when to the average user there is no difference and to the terminal-using folks not forking is very useful at times. Yes, if you start a number of not-forking processes from a terminal and then close the terminal without disowning them they will also die. Luckily the users who will start a program from a terminal are advanced enough to know that happens[1]. Ross [1] In other news this week was the first time I got a bug report from a Sound Juicer user who when I asked "run SJ in a terminal and paste the output" asked "what's a terminal?". Yay non-geek users! --=20 Ross Burton mail: ross@burtonini.com jabber: ross@burtonini.com www: http://www.burtonini.com./ PGP Fingerprint: 1A21 F5B0 D8D0 CFE3 81D4 E25A 2D09 E447 D0B4 33DF --=-hHw0K+ovPQXh+ENRGLBc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEmQM3LQnkR9C0M98RAjA/AJ48sqixMzGp90lHwkoSZEEzzHYr0wCfaOyk 8c218P3Pjd0fJjEh3Od2p0s= =F/45 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-hHw0K+ovPQXh+ENRGLBc-- From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Wed Jun 21 04:49:23 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67FE13B07CA for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:49:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22910-06 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:49:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.203]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4F3AD3B04EA for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:49:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 38857 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Jun 2006 08:49:21 -0000 Message-ID: <20060621084921.38855.qmail@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.141.171.15] by web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:49:21 BST Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:49:21 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Ross Burton , Mystilleef In-Reply-To: <1150878520.12957.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.538 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.586, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.538 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:49:23 -0000 --- Ross Burton wrote: > Primary use case for not forking is that it makes it > trivial to write a > script that launches a program, user does something > in it, and then the > script can continue when the program has exited. If > Gedit forked when > it started I wouldn't be able to use it as $EDITOR > in cvs commit for > example. That's interesting! Would you care to add a brief note on how to do that to the wiki, perhaps on http://live.gnome.org/Sysadmin/CVS/FAQ ? > > [1] In other news this week was the first time I got > a bug report from a > Sound Juicer user who when I asked "run SJ in a > terminal and paste the > output" asked "what's a terminal?". Yay non-geek > users! Yay indeed! (Original poster wrote:) > There are many other silly UNIX conventions that are a hold back from yesteryears which bite us in the behind today. Absolutely. I keep finding some of these, filing bugs in my ignorance, and then getting told it's meant to be the way it is. We need to look at these legacy issues, because there are simply a pain to non-geek users, and non-geek contributors too. ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From nudrema@gmail.com Wed Jun 21 04:49:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 233453B04EF for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:49:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22840-07 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:49:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp40.mobistarmail.be (smtp40.mobistarmail.be [193.252.23.61]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 123723B0AF9 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:49:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.103] (unknown [212.224.134.45]) by mwinf4016.mobistarmail.be (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id AA8337000085 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 10:49:25 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060621084925698.AA8337000085@mwinf4016.mobistarmail.be Message-ID: <44990812.3040603@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 10:49:22 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Steve_Fr=E9cinaux?= User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <1150878520.12957.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <1150878520.12957.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.973 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.443, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_NEUTRAL=1.069] X-Spam-Score: -1.973 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:49:41 -0000 Ross Burton wrote: > Primary use case for not forking is that it makes it trivial to write a > script that launches a program, user does something in it, and then the > script can continue when the program has exited. If Gedit forked when > it started I wouldn't be able to use it as $EDITOR in cvs commit for > example. Well, in fact you can't now, because of a bug due to the single instance stuff (ie it's not blocking when you already have an instance of gedit). This might be solved by adding a --wait option or such for these case, but it's not done yet. From sberry@cyberspace.org Mon Jun 19 22:04:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C66503B01F6 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:04:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16941-07 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:04:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from grex.cyberspace.org (grex.cyberspace.org [216.86.77.194]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC98B3B0D79 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:04:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sberry by grex.cyberspace.org with local (Exim 4.54) id 1FsVan-0006sA-5J for usability@gnome.org; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:03:49 -0400 Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:03:49 -0400 From: David To: usability@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2i Sender: David X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.537 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.062, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.537 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 11:02:14 -0400 Subject: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 02:04:48 -0000 Dear All, I am not sure if you have seen this article (apparently it appeared on SlashDot). http://chabada.sk/better-desktop/ The reason I am mentioning it on the usability list is that he has many ideas for the utilisation of pop-up dialogues that appear not to be too intrusive. The idea of mail new message preview is a large usability gap, due to the time it takes users to switch back and forth between the app they are using and Evolution to determine if a message is improtant or not and the interruption to workflow this entails. Progress notifications, information about multimedia codecs and automatic music pause would all lead to a more intuitive systemi. The comments about displaying more relevant data in Nautilus are also worth taking on board. All in all, these are some of the best practical suggestions I have seen for a long time. I hope they provide deveopers and usability experts with food for thought. Thanks, Sarah From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Wed Jun 21 12:17:06 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB7C43B0FCB for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:17:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20270-09 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:17:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.206]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1A1503B0FE5 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:17:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 64620 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Jun 2006 16:17:02 -0000 Message-ID: <20060621161702.64618.qmail@web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.215.5.26] by web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:17:02 BST Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:17:02 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: David , usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.669 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.717, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.669 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:17:06 -0000 --- David wrote: > Dear All, > > I am not sure if you have seen this article > (apparently it appeared on SlashDot). > http://chabada.sk/better-desktop/ > > The reason I am mentioning it on the usability list > is that he has many ideas for the utilisation of > pop-up dialogues that appear not to be too > intrusive. The idea of mail new message preview is > a large usability gap, due to the time it takes > users to switch back and forth between the app they > are using and Evolution to determine if a message is > improtant or not and the interruption to workflow > this entails. Have you seen Growl for OS X? There is also a page on our wiki about redesigning the notification area. > > The comments about displaying more relevant data in > Nautilus are also worth taking on board. I do not underestand why Nautilus ties up two totally different concepts in its zoom function: icon size and amount of information displayed. If anything, the reverse would make more sense: icons smaller when there is more text in the label. I filed a bug about this but I don't think I explained it properly, as it has been ignored/ ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Wed Jun 21 12:49:44 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 617AA3B00AE for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:49:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22459-04 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:49:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C9A833B10DE for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:48:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 21 Jun 2006 17:47:39 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:47:39 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan To: sberry@grex.cyberspace.org In-Reply-To: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> Message-ID: References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:49:45 -0000 On Mon, 19 Jun 2006, David wrote: > Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:03:49 -0400 > From: David > To: usability@gnome.org > Subject: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions > > Dear All, > > I am not sure if you have seen this article (apparently it appeared on > SlashDot). http://chabada.sk/better-desktop/ I've seen it but I'm not sure it was discussed here on this list. I probably read about it on OSNews http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=14152 A lot of the suggestions could be dealt with directly by filing bug reports and feature requests and I think a few may have been filed already by the author. > Progress notifications, information about multimedia codecs and We really want to encourage people to use free and open formats and avoid vendor lock in problem which in the long run is a far worse problem. It might even be good idea to offer to transcode files to better formats before offering to install codecs for encumbered proprietary formats. Part of this "problem" is up to distributions and what they choose to include. Gnome doesn't include proprietary codecs and this stance is unlikely to change but some distributions do add them back in and give users what they think they want. Another part of it is education, to try and make sure users understand we cannot play formats such as MP3 out of the box due to legal hazards. Much as we might like to ignore the issue and give users what they want we cannot afford to as it will not go away and will only get worse. Fluendo and gstreamer do seem to be working at making it easier to install 3rd party codecs but we cannot achieve the ideal ease of use and without undermining other goals. > automatic music pause would all lead to a more intuitive systemi. the notion of pausing music has been discussed before, I dont recall if there was any conclusion or ideas on how best to go about implementing it. > The comments about displaying more relevant data in Nautilus are also > worth taking on board. I think the author may have posted those directly to the nautilus list. Sincerely Alan Horkan Inkscape http://inkscape.org Abiword http://www.abisource.com Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/ From thejello@gmail.com Wed Jun 21 14:37:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9858F3B014E for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:37:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29199-05 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:37:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.183]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 705803B0084 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:37:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id x66so48839pye for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 11:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.134.12 with SMTP id l12mr136441pyn; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 11:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.124.18 with HTTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 11:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4d9c6c340606211137p39290216x864bd61275aec52@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:37:08 -0400 From: "Simon Francis" To: "Alan Horkan" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_5466_4641605.1150915028419" References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.129 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.470, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.129 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org, sberry@grex.cyberspace.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 18:37:12 -0000 ------=_Part_5466_4641605.1150915028419 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Why does Gnome open non-free document formats that have related patents (Word, Excel, etc) but not multimedia files? I would consider it essential for a modern desktop to open either and a major barrier to adoption. On 6/21/06, Alan Horkan wrote: > > > On Mon, 19 Jun 2006, David wrote: > > > Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:03:49 -0400 > > From: David > > To: usability@gnome.org > > Subject: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions > > > > Dear All, > > > > I am not sure if you have seen this article (apparently it appeared on > > SlashDot). http://chabada.sk/better-desktop/ > > I've seen it but I'm not sure it was discussed here on this list. > > I probably read about it on OSNews > http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=14152 > > A lot of the suggestions could be dealt with directly by filing bug > reports and feature requests and I think a few may have been filed already > by the author. > > > Progress notifications, information about multimedia codecs and > > We really want to encourage people to use free and open formats and avoid > vendor lock in problem which in the long run is a far worse problem. It > might even be good idea to offer to transcode files to better formats > before offering to install codecs for encumbered proprietary formats. > > Part of this "problem" is up to distributions and what they choose to > include. Gnome doesn't include proprietary codecs and this stance is > unlikely to change but some distributions do add them back in and give > users what they think they want. > > Another part of it is education, to try and make sure users understand we > cannot play formats such as MP3 out of the box due to legal hazards. > Much as we might like to ignore the issue and give users what they want we > cannot afford to as it will not go away and will only get worse. > > Fluendo and gstreamer do seem to be working at making it easier to install > 3rd party codecs but we cannot achieve the ideal ease of use and without > undermining other goals. > > > automatic music pause would all lead to a more intuitive systemi. > > the notion of pausing music has been discussed before, I dont recall if > there was any conclusion or ideas on how best to go about implementing it. > > > The comments about displaying more relevant data in Nautilus are also > > worth taking on board. > > I think the author may have posted those directly to the nautilus list. > > Sincerely > > Alan Horkan > > Inkscape http://inkscape.org > Abiword http://www.abisource.com > Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org > > Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Usability mailing list > Usability@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability > ------=_Part_5466_4641605.1150915028419 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Why does Gnome open non-free document formats that have related patents (Word, Excel, etc) but not multimedia files? I would consider it essential for a modern desktop to open either and a major barrier to adoption.

On 6/21/06, Alan Horkan <horkana@maths.tcd.ie> wrote:

On Mon, 19 Jun 2006, David wrote:

> Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:03:49 -0400
> From: David <sberry@grex.cyberspace.org>
> To: usability@gnome.org
> Subject: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions
>
> Dear All,
>
> I am not sure if you have seen this article (apparently it appeared on
> SlashDot). http://chabada.sk/better-desktop/

I've seen it but I'm not sure it was discussed here on this list.

I probably read about it on OSNews
http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=14152

A lot of the suggestions could be dealt with directly by filing bug
reports and feature requests and I think a few may have been filed already
by the author.

> Progress notifications, information about multimedia codecs and

We really want to encourage people to use free and open formats and avoid
vendor lock in problem which in the long run is a far worse problem.  It
might even be good idea to offer to transcode files to better formats
before offering to install codecs for encumbered proprietary formats.

Part of this "problem" is up to distributions and what they choose to
include.  Gnome doesn't include proprietary codecs and this stance is
unlikely to change but some distributions do add them back in and give
users what they think they want.

Another part of it is education, to try and make sure users understand we
cannot play formats such as MP3 out of the box due to legal hazards.
Much as we might like to ignore the issue and give users what they want we
cannot afford to as it will not go away and will only get worse.

Fluendo and gstreamer do seem to be working at making it easier to install
3rd party codecs but we cannot achieve the ideal ease of use and without
undermining other goals.

> automatic music pause would all lead to a more intuitive systemi.

the notion of pausing music has been discussed before, I dont recall if
there was any conclusion or ideas on how best to go about implementing it.

> The comments about displaying more relevant data in Nautilus are also
> worth taking on board.

I think the author may have posted those directly to the nautilus list.

Sincerely

Alan Horkan

Inkscape http://inkscape.org
Abiword http://www.abisource.com
Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org

Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/



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Usability@gnome.org
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------=_Part_5466_4641605.1150915028419-- From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Wed Jun 21 16:21:38 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 456063B05BB for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:21:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03268-09 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:21:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BE8643B05C0 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:21:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 21 Jun 2006 21:21:33 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 21:21:33 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <4d9c6c340606211137p39290216x864bd61275aec52@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> <4d9c6c340606211137p39290216x864bd61275aec52@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 20:21:38 -0000 On Wed, 21 Jun 2006, Simon Francis wrote: > Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:37:08 -0400 > From: Simon Francis > To: Alan Horkan > Cc: sberry@grex.cyberspace.org, usability@gnome.org > Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions > > Why does Gnome open non-free document formats that have related patents > (Word, Excel, etc) but not multimedia files? Techincally (and I apologise for the pedantry) Abiword and Gnumeric or Openoffice are the ones opening those formats not "GNOME" (although they are part or the wider Gnome community). More importantly the older office document formats have quite the same patent threats looming over them as the newer video formats do and they could be clean room reverse engineered but patents on video formats remain a threat even if the decoders are completely new code. > I would consider it essential for a modern desktop to open either and a > major barrier to adoption. The develolpers are not going to lock themselves out of their own desktop by using proprietary formats. If distributions choose to include additional codecs that is up to them. Other operating systems do not support certain formats out of the box. This is not directly a Gnome issue, and it is more a packaging and installation issue than a usability or mulitmedia issue. I am sure Gstreamer will continue to try and make it easier to install third part codecs but it is a nasty problem since the root of it is the politics of software patents. I understand your points and I do sort of agree with you (most likely I will choose a distribution which includes the codecs, or maybe install them myself but try to use unencumbered formats where possible) and I am only trying to present the problem as best I understand it. -- Alan From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Wed Jun 21 17:26:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B9A03B0153 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:26:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07094-01 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:26:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.206]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4366F3B0005 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:26:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 98624 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Jun 2006 21:26:49 -0000 Message-ID: <20060621212649.98622.qmail@web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.188.165.84] by web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 22:26:49 BST Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 22:26:49 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Alan Horkan , sberry@grex.cyberspace.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.653 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.701, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.653 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 21:26:51 -0000 --- Alan Horkan wrote: > Another part of it is education, to try and make > sure users understand we > cannot play formats such as MP3 out of the box due > to legal hazards. > Much as we might like to ignore the issue and give > users what they want we > cannot afford to as it will not go away and will > only get worse. Then let's educate the users! Try to open an MP3 file in Nautilus, and you get a 'application could not be found' message, which is unhelpful and untrue. Replace that with something that says why the MP3 can't be played. ___________________________________________________________ The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html From ross@burtonini.com Thu Jun 22 06:19:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9248D3B0389 for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 06:19:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15587-05 for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 06:19:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 651A03B042A for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 06:19:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from burtonini.com (althur.gotadsl.co.uk [84.12.135.175]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D3F029BC37; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 11:14:54 +0100 (BST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (ident=unknown) by burtonini.com with esmtp (masqmail 0.2.21) id 1Ft3Ca-331-00; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:57:04 +0100 From: Ross Burton To: Steve =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9cinaux?= In-Reply-To: <44990812.3040603@gmail.com> References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <1150878520.12957.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <44990812.3040603@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-GS5gCILk9mi/7eC2n045" Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:57:04 +0100 Message-Id: <1150898224.7820.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.833 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.616, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_12_24=1.247, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -1.833 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 10:19:18 -0000 --=-GS5gCILk9mi/7eC2n045 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 2006-06-21 at 10:49 +0200, Steve Fr=C3=A9cinaux wrote: > Ross Burton wrote: >=20 > > Primary use case for not forking is that it makes it trivial to write a > > script that launches a program, user does something in it, and then the > > script can continue when the program has exited. If Gedit forked when > > it started I wouldn't be able to use it as $EDITOR in cvs commit for > > example. >=20 > Well, in fact you can't now, because of a bug due to the single instance > stuff (ie it's not blocking when you already have an instance of gedit). >=20 > This might be solved by adding a --wait option or such for these case, > but it's not done yet. Never let reality get in the way of a good example, that's what I say. Yes, the single-instance stuff needs a --wait or something. In fact I'll add this to the single-instance SoC project wiki page. Ross --=20 Ross Burton mail: ross@burtonini.com jabber: ross@burtonini.com www: http://www.burtonini.com./ PGP Fingerprint: 1A21 F5B0 D8D0 CFE3 81D4 E25A 2D09 E447 D0B4 33DF --=-GS5gCILk9mi/7eC2n045 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEmVAwLQnkR9C0M98RAjj/AJkBwL8X5gXuowk+mivKV7xgBtxiYQCggIe4 2AiH4/XMuAfyJXaHvh10+DM= =rEto -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-GS5gCILk9mi/7eC2n045-- From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Fri Jun 23 03:30:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97FAB3B018A for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 03:30:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22794-06 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 03:30:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32406.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32406.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.199]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AD4CA3B00ED for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 03:30:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 90963 invoked by uid 60001); 23 Jun 2006 07:30:56 -0000 Message-ID: <20060623073056.90961.qmail@web32406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.214.29.119] by web32406.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 08:30:56 BST Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 08:30:56 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Michael Knepher , Gnome usability In-Reply-To: <19425c310606221428w62bc6e6ey19dd5c892a7e4176@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.56 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.608, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.56 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 07:30:57 -0000 --- Michael Knepher wrote: > On 6/21/06, Joachim Noreiko > wrote: > > > > --- Alan Horkan wrote: > > > > > Another part of it is education, to try and make > > > sure users understand we > > > cannot play formats such as MP3 out of the box > due > > > to legal hazards. > > > > Then let's educate the users! > > > > Try to open an MP3 file in Nautilus, and you get a > > 'application could not be found' message, which is > > unhelpful and untrue. > > Replace that with something that says why the MP3 > > can't be played. > > Isn't that the generic message that appears when > trying to open *any* > file type that doesn't have an application > registered to that > mime-type? Why should nautilus have a hard-coded > exception for any > file-type? Having a support page with information or > links to further > information about various filetypes and what > applications can > open/play/edit/hang out with them would seem to be a > better idea. > Today it may be mp3, but tomorrow it's likely to be > some other format, > and even today mp3 is far from the only > unsupported-out-of-the-box > file format for most distributions. Opening a support page when the user tries to open an MP3 file would be fine too. Basically, something needs to happen beyond the default message so the user doesn't simply think "This linux is rubbish -- it doesn't even know what an MP3 file is!" And yes, we could widen the idea, so anytime the user tries to open a file for which there's currently no application, she can go to find out more about what to do next. Eg, try to open an SVG file, and the helpfile you're pointed to will suggest Inkscape. ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From kbridger@shaw.ca Sat Jun 24 15:16:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B07543B00A5 for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 15:16:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31701-10 for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 15:16:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pd2mo2so.prod.shaw.ca (shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net [24.71.223.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2AF63B01B1 for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 15:16:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pd2mr7so.prod.shaw.ca (pd2mr7so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.10]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1D00MELPIRZW10@l-daemon> for usability@gnome.org; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 13:16:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml9so.prod.shaw.ca ([10.0.121.7]) by pd2mr7so.prod.shaw.ca (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1D00L5ZPIRYC00@pd2mr7so.prod.shaw.ca> for usability@gnome.org; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 13:16:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from spontaneity.thebside.ca ([70.70.211.21]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1D00HLCPIQVQG0@l-daemon> for usability@gnome.org; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 13:16:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.0.10] (westley [192.168.0.10]) by spontaneity.thebside.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0D6A1014; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 12:16:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 12:16:01 -0700 From: Kirk Bridger In-reply-to: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> To: David Message-id: <449D8F71.1060304@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.366 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.809, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST=1.708, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.366 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 19:16:56 -0000 His site seems down, but looking through Google's cache I have a comment: Renaming file extensions causes file type change: I don't like the way Windows uses file extensions to determine filetype. I think it is much more useful to have the system figure out what filetype it is. Windows ended up providing users with a means of hiding file extensions and we all know how that turned out. I love being able to send a .exe file through my exchange server's filter simply by renaming it .txt. Changing types though could be useful - I use nautilus's script to resize images for example. Being able to do that in the properties or by right-clicking is an interesting idea. I suppose the same could be done for filetypes as well, to a limited extent. I'm not sure if there is a frequently used use case there or not though. Kirk David wrote: > Dear All, > > I am not sure if you have seen this article (apparently it appeared on SlashDot). > http://chabada.sk/better-desktop/ > > The reason I am mentioning it on the usability list is that he has many ideas for the utilisation of pop-up dialogues that appear not to be too intrusive. The idea of mail new message preview is a large usability gap, due to the time it takes users to switch back and forth between the app they are using and Evolution to determine if a message is improtant or not and the interruption to workflow this entails. > > Progress notifications, information about multimedia codecs and automatic music pause would all lead to a more intuitive systemi. > > The comments about displaying more relevant data in Nautilus are also worth taking on board. > > All in all, these are some of the best practical suggestions I have seen for a long time. I hope they provide deveopers and usability experts with food for thought. > > Thanks, > > Sarah > _______________________________________________ > Usability mailing list > Usability@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability > From mpt@myrealbox.com Sun Jun 25 01:21:37 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40CD73B02A2 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 01:21:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17670-06 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 01:21:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from leucothea.redline.site5.com (leucothea.redline.site5.com [216.118.97.161]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E57D3B0079 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 01:21:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 203-173-178-53.bliink.ihug.co.nz ([203.173.178.53] helo=[10.1.1.5]) by leucothea.redline.site5.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.52) id 1FuN3O-0005nO-Se; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 01:21:03 -0400 In-Reply-To: <449D8F71.1060304@shaw.ca> References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> <449D8F71.1060304@shaw.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <6b768541cf85cb7ade2a7217c3faffd4@myrealbox.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Matthew Paul Thomas Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:21:12 +1200 To: Gnome usability X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.623) X-Antivirus-Scanner: This message has been scanned by ClamAV. X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - leucothea.redline.site5.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnome.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - myrealbox.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.499 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.499 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 05:21:37 -0000 On Jun 25, 2006, at 7:16 AM, Kirk Bridger wrote: > ... > I don't like the way Windows uses file extensions to determine > filetype. I think it is much more useful to have the system figure > out what filetype it is. Windows ended up providing users with a > means of hiding file extensions and we all know how that turned out. > I love being able to send a .exe file through my exchange server's > filter simply by renaming it .txt. > ... The converse of that is the friend of mine who renamed something.bmp to something.gif and wondered why it didn't get converted. (And that was without even being exposed to the Gimp, which has a Save dialog encouraging such confusion.) -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Sun Jun 25 05:29:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FA973B0079 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 05:29:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07670-03 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 05:29:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B8F243B013D for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 05:29:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 25 Jun 2006 10:28:36 +0100 (BST) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:28:36 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: Gnome usability In-Reply-To: <6b768541cf85cb7ade2a7217c3faffd4@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> <449D8F71.1060304@shaw.ca> <6b768541cf85cb7ade2a7217c3faffd4@myrealbox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 09:29:34 -0000 On Sun, 25 Jun 2006, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:21:12 +1200 > From: Matthew Paul Thomas > To: Gnome usability > Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions > > On Jun 25, 2006, at 7:16 AM, Kirk Bridger wrote: > > ... > > I don't like the way Windows uses file extensions to determine > > filetype. It is a fairly fast way of doing things. > > I think it is much more useful to have the system figure > > out what filetype it is. There certainly used to be an option to use full file type detection in Nautilus, which was much more necessary several years ago as some developers intentionally did not use any file extensions but most do nowadays. Even if we had a system where we did not need to use file extensions I would generally add them back in for my own use, they are especially useful for simple pattern matching on the command line. For example: ls -lgh *.png > > Windows ended up providing users with a > > means of hiding file extensions and we all know how that turned out. > > I love being able to send a .exe file through my exchange server's > > filter simply by renaming it .txt. I've seen people embed huge video files inside Word Documents just to bypass stupid filters. It is a system only useful for preventing users from accidentally shooting themselves in the foot but that wont stop those determined to wreck their computer. > The converse of that is the friend of mine who renamed something.bmp to > something.gif and wondered why it didn't get converted. A very familiar situation. It didn't help that some web authoring tools such as Microsoft Frontpage failed to discourage users from including massive uncompressed bitmaps on their web pages. It would sure be an improvement to offer to convert the file instead of issuing pointless - inevitably ignored - warnings the way Microsoft does. -- Alan From reinouts@gnome.org Sun Jun 25 10:38:30 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C5643B00CA for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:38:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17732-05 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:38:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp13.wxs.nl (smtp13.wxs.nl [195.121.247.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F2FB3B00FE for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:38:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from reinout.rotterdam-cs.com (ip5656924e.speed.planet.nl [86.86.146.78]) by smtp13.wxs.nl (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004)) with SMTP id <0J1F00KSS7B3U5@smtp13.wxs.nl> for usability@gnome.org; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 16:37:52 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 16:40:29 +0200 From: Reinout van Schouwen To: usability@gnome.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Pan/0.14.2 (This is not a psychotic episode. It's a cleansing moment of clarity.) References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> <449D8F71.1060304@shaw.ca> <6b768541cf85cb7ade2a7217c3faffd4@myrealbox.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.014, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 14:38:30 -0000 On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:21:12 +1200, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > The converse of that is the friend of mine who renamed something.bmp to > something.gif and wondered why it didn't get converted. Automagically converting the file after the user renames it to another graphics type would be a very sensible thing to do, wouldn't it? regards, -- Reinout van Schouwen From reinouts@gnome.org Sun Jun 25 10:41:44 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93DA03B00BB for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:41:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17855-06 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:41:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp16.wxs.nl (smtp16.wxs.nl [195.121.247.7]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 232073B00CA for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:41:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from reinout.rotterdam-cs.com (ip5656924e.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl [86.86.146.78]) by smtp16.wxs.nl (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004)) with SMTP id <0J1F005KV7GTCX@smtp16.wxs.nl> for usability@gnome.org; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 16:41:18 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 16:43:55 +0200 From: Reinout van Schouwen To: usability@gnome.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Pan/0.14.2 (This is not a psychotic episode. It's a cleansing moment of clarity.) References: <20060621212649.98622.qmail@web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.014, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 14:41:44 -0000 On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 22:26:49 +0100, Joachim Noreiko wrote: > Try to open an MP3 file in Nautilus, and you get a 'application could not > be found' message, which is unhelpful and untrue. > Replace that with something that says why the MP3 can't be played. You are assuming that people read such messages. In reality, unfortunately, they don't. regards, -- Reinout van Schouwen From mpt@myrealbox.com Sun Jun 25 18:51:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BF323B0201 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 18:51:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06774-08 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 18:51:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from leucothea.redline.site5.com (leucothea.redline.site5.com [216.118.97.161]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 390DA3B019D for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 18:51:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 203-173-178-53.bliink.ihug.co.nz ([203.173.178.53] helo=[10.1.1.5]) by leucothea.redline.site5.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.52) id 1FudS6-0007xY-9V; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 18:51:38 -0400 In-Reply-To: References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> <449D8F71.1060304@shaw.ca> <6b768541cf85cb7ade2a7217c3faffd4@myrealbox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Matthew Paul Thomas Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:51:39 +1200 To: Gnome usability X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.623) X-Antivirus-Scanner: This message has been scanned by ClamAV. X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - leucothea.redline.site5.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnome.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - myrealbox.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.514 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.085, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.514 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 22:51:46 -0000 On Jun 26, 2006, at 2:40 AM, Reinout van Schouwen wrote: > > On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:21:12 +1200, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: >> >> The converse of that is the friend of mine who renamed something.bmp >> to something.gif and wondered why it didn't get converted. > > Automagically converting the file after the user renames it to another > graphics type would be a very sensible thing to do, wouldn't it? > ... I don't think so, because then you would still have the "renaming a file in a particular way causes a confirmation alert" problem, except this time the alert would be asking about a (usually) lossy file conversion instead of merely a rename. -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Mon Jun 26 03:49:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67B333B0124 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 03:49:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31093-05 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 03:49:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.204]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A389A3B00B6 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 03:49:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 67033 invoked by uid 60001); 26 Jun 2006 07:49:48 -0000 Message-ID: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.188.218.167] by web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:49:48 BST Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:49:48 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Reinout van Schouwen , usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.654 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.702, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.654 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 07:49:52 -0000 --- Reinout van Schouwen wrote: > On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 22:26:49 +0100, Joachim Noreiko > wrote: > > > Try to open an MP3 file in Nautilus, and you get a > 'application could not > > be found' message, which is unhelpful and untrue. > > Replace that with something that says why the MP3 > can't be played. > > You are assuming that people read such messages. In > reality, > unfortunately, they don't. Yes, they often don't. But have to assume they do and plan our UI around that assumption. Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and probably no user documentation either. ___________________________________________________________ Now you can scan emails quickly with a reading pane. Get the new Yahoo! Mail. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html From burner@suppressingfire.org Mon Jun 26 10:22:09 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B811B3B043B for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:22:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24164-06 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:22:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ms-smtp-01.nyroc.rr.com (ms-smtp-01.nyroc.rr.com [24.24.2.55]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66D493B0124 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:22:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from suppressingfire (cpe-24-24-95-18.stny.res.rr.com [24.24.95.18]) by ms-smtp-01.nyroc.rr.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k5QELvpk004094 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:22:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [66.24.9.211] (helo=phoenix.local) by suppressingfire with asmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1Fury6-0003dz-00; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:21:38 -0400 From: "Michael R. Head" To: usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-jyWJEDPHSqqZY9+dmCjI" Organization: suppressingfire.org Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:21:33 -0400 Message-Id: <1151331695.7135.143.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Scanner: exiscan *1Fury6-0003dz-00*MS6m9wiATYI* X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.653 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_NJABL_DUL=1.946] X-Spam-Score: -0.653 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:22:09 -0000 --=-jyWJEDPHSqqZY9+dmCjI Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:49 +0100, Joachim Noreiko wrote: >=20 > Yes, they often don't. > But have to assume they do and plan our UI around that > assumption. > Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and probably > no user documentation either. It's not that we shouldn't have those, it's that the user shouldn't _need_ them. --=20 Michael R. Head suppressingfire.org --=-jyWJEDPHSqqZY9+dmCjI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEn+1tNXGzGEydodARAqBvAKCCBm4gdnuwL1qXO4DzJtBTQB0tNACeMCMV 98CqtU5zsymY1oSZ3hjToYY= =1qKT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-jyWJEDPHSqqZY9+dmCjI-- From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Mon Jun 26 12:36:43 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2CFA3B009A for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:36:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00507-06 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:36:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.202]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DDC053B03BA for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:36:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 49772 invoked by uid 60001); 26 Jun 2006 16:36:42 -0000 Message-ID: <20060626163642.49770.qmail@web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.214.125.57] by web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:36:42 BST Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:36:42 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: "Michael R. Head" , usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <1151331695.7135.143.camel@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.565 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.613, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.565 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:36:44 -0000 --- "Michael R. Head" wrote: > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:49 +0100, Joachim Noreiko > wrote: > > > > Yes, they often don't. > > But have to assume they do and plan our UI around > that > > assumption. > > Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and > probably > > no user documentation either. > > It's not that we shouldn't have those, it's that the > user shouldn't > _need_ them. I agree with that in general. But when the user tries to open a file for which there's no application, there has to be some sort of response from the system. ___________________________________________________________ All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html From glatzor@ubuntu.com Mon Jun 26 14:31:16 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 333A13B0265 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:31:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07114-05 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:31:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail-out.m-online.net (mail-out.m-online.net [212.18.0.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8BEB3B017D for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:31:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail01.m-online.net (svr21.m-online.net [192.168.3.149]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2BCA73290 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:31:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pimpzkru.dyndns.org (ppp-82-135-65-46.dynamic.mnet-online.de [82.135.65.46]) by mail.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 949F092781 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:31:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pimpzkru.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DA2AD2E05 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:47:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pimpzkru.dyndns.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (server.daheim [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20467-07 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:47:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from sebi-mac.daheim (sebi-mac.daheim [10.169.18.2]) by pimpzkru.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3721ED2E02 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:47:05 +0200 (CEST) From: Sebastian Heinlein To: usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20060626163642.49770.qmail@web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060626163642.49770.qmail@web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:30:33 +0200 Message-Id: <1151346634.4959.6.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at pimpzkru X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.464 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.464 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:31:16 -0000 Am Montag, den 26.06.2006, 17:36 +0100 schrieb Joachim Noreiko: > --- "Michael R. Head" > wrote: > > > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:49 +0100, Joachim Noreiko > > wrote: > > > > > > Yes, they often don't. > > > But have to assume they do and plan our UI around > > that > > > assumption. > > > Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and > > probably > > > no user documentation either. > > > > It's not that we shouldn't have those, it's that the > > user shouldn't > > _need_ them. > > I agree with that in general. > But when the user tries to open a file for which > there's no application, there has to be some sort of > response from the system May I point you to the following spec that has been discussed on the Ubuntu Depeveloper Summit in Paris recently: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SuggestedPackagesForFiletypesSpec Regards, Sebastian From mpt@myrealbox.com Mon Jun 26 23:42:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82C2B3B0286 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:42:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01194-10 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:42:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from leucothea.redline.site5.com (leucothea.redline.site5.com [216.118.97.161]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 832863B00CF for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:42:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 203-173-178-53.bliink.ihug.co.nz ([203.173.178.53] helo=[10.1.1.5]) by leucothea.redline.site5.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.52) id 1Fv4TO-00043b-Bp; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:42:46 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Matthew Paul Thomas Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:42:56 +1200 To: Gnome usability X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.623) X-Antivirus-Scanner: This message has been scanned by ClamAV. X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - leucothea.redline.site5.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnome.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - myrealbox.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.524 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.075, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.524 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 03:42:51 -0000 On Jun 26, 2006, at 7:49 PM, Joachim Noreiko wrote: > ... > --- Reinout van Schouwen wrote: > ... >> You are assuming that people read such messages. In reality, >> unfortunately, they don't. > > Yes, they often don't. But have to assume they do and plan our UI > around that assumption. Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and > probably no user documentation either. > ... That's a long-term goal to work towards: alerts replaced by bug fixes and better design, and "user documentation" replaced by helpful help and better design. But that's not the issue here. The issue is, given that there is an error alert, which alert text is better: "Nautilus could not open the file because the filetype is unknown", or "&operatingsystem; cannot play MP3 files, because some countries allow software patents and Free Software cannot pay patent licenses". -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ From kbridger@shaw.ca Tue Jun 27 00:40:32 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 179EB3B0125 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:40:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03708-04 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:40:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pd2mo2so.prod.shaw.ca (shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net [24.71.223.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCA8E3B0143 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:40:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pd5mr1so.prod.shaw.ca (pd5mr1so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.232]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1I0071O4YNP570@l-daemon> for usability@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:39:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml1so.prod.shaw.ca ([10.0.121.145]) by pd5mr1so.prod.shaw.ca (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-2.05 (built Apr 28 2005)) with ESMTP id <0J1I001J94YN5Q50@pd5mr1so.prod.shaw.ca> for usability@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:39:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from spontaneity.thebside.ca ([70.70.211.21]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1I00ART4YN7T31@l-daemon> for usability@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:39:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.0.10] (westley [192.168.0.10]) by spontaneity.thebside.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C58A043724; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:39:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:39:58 -0700 From: Kirk Bridger In-reply-to: To: Matthew Paul Thomas Message-id: <44A0B69E.4050605@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> <449D8F71.1060304@shaw.ca> <6b768541cf85cb7ade2a7217c3faffd4@myrealbox.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.372 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.817, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST=1.708, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.372 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Gnome usability Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 04:40:32 -0000 I think it would be an interesting idea if it was lossless.  As soon as data can be lost in the translation I think it would be a mistake.

But as Matthew pointed out, it is a rename function.  Might it make more sense to have a right-click option to convert a file to another filetype, a la Nautilus scripts?  Certainly more complex but also more robust I think.

Why would a file's name determine it's format?  It seems artificial and fragile to me.  Alan's point about organizing via extension is a fallback to the shell, but is certainly true.  For the shell.  I think there are better ways to do it on the desktop - perhaps with Beagle and tagging images with their type or something like that?

However as long it is lossless there would be no danger and it most likely would be useful to some.  It actually might be kind of cool.


Kirk



Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: 
On Jun 26, 2006, at 2:40 AM, Reinout van Schouwen wrote:
  
On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:21:12 +1200, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
    
The converse of that is the friend of mine who renamed something.bmp 
to something.gif and wondered why it didn't get converted.
      
Automagically converting the file after the user renames it to another
graphics type would be a very sensible thing to do, wouldn't it?
...
    

I don't think so, because then you would still have the "renaming a 
file in a particular way causes a confirmation alert" problem, except 
this time the alert would be asking about a (usually) lossy file 
conversion instead of merely a rename.
From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Tue Jun 27 10:37:21 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34D453B0497 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 10:37:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03799-06 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 10:37:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3DC803B0234 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 10:37:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bell.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.9] helo=bell.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 27 Jun 2006 15:36:40 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:36:40 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: Gnome usability In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:37:21 -0000 On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: [...] > > Yes, they often don't. But have to assume they do and plan our UI > > around that assumption. Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and > > probably no user documentation either. > > ... > > That's a long-term goal to work towards: alerts replaced by bug fixes > and better design, and "user documentation" replaced by helpful help > and better design. > But that's not the issue here. The issue is, given that there is an > error alert, which alert text is better: I agree with your sentiment but ... > "Nautilus could not open the > file because the filetype is unknown", or > "&operatingsystem; cannot play MP3 files, because some countries allow > software patents and Free Software cannot pay patent licenses". ... there are so many things wrong with that second sentence I will not criticize it other than to say I hope you will retract it, or rephrase it. -- Alan H. From thejello@gmail.com Tue Jun 27 11:30:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2D3B3B00A0 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:30:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05701-08 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:30:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.181]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8869E3B00B4 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:30:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id b29so1887828pya for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:29:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.121.9 with SMTP id y9mr7319104pym; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:29:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.124.18 with HTTP; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:29:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4d9c6c340606270829v76184a30t1873601ca705e921@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:29:55 -0400 From: "Simon Francis" To: "Matthew Paul Thomas" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_11777_20547401.1151422195993" References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.928 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.097, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, HTML_30_40=0.374, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.928 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Gnome usability Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:30:27 -0000 ------=_Part_11777_20547401.1151422195993 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline But OpenOffice and AbiWord open my Word documents fine which have patents. It is as essential to a home user to have working multimedia playback as a business user having the ability to open documents. On 6/26/06, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > > On Jun 26, 2006, at 7:49 PM, Joachim Noreiko wrote: > > ... > > --- Reinout van Schouwen wrote: > > ... > >> You are assuming that people read such messages. In reality, > >> unfortunately, they don't. > > > > Yes, they often don't. But have to assume they do and plan our UI > > around that assumption. Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and > > probably no user documentation either. > > ... > > That's a long-term goal to work towards: alerts replaced by bug fixes > and better design, and "user documentation" replaced by helpful help > and better design. > > But that's not the issue here. The issue is, given that there is an > error alert, which alert text is better: "Nautilus could not open the > file because the filetype is unknown", or "&operatingsystem; cannot > play MP3 files, because some countries allow software patents and Free > Software cannot pay patent licenses". > > -- > Matthew Paul Thomas > http://mpt.net.nz/ > > _______________________________________________ > Usability mailing list > Usability@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability > ------=_Part_11777_20547401.1151422195993 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline But OpenOffice and AbiWord open my Word documents fine which have patents. It is as essential to a home user to have working multimedia playback as a business user having the ability to open documents.

On 6/26/06, Matthew Paul Thomas <mpt@myrealbox.com> wrote:
On Jun 26, 2006, at 7:49 PM, Joachim Noreiko wrote:
> ...
> --- Reinout van Schouwen <reinouts@gnome.org> wrote:
> ...
>> You are assuming that people read such messages. In reality,
>> unfortunately, they don't.
>
> Yes, they often don't. But have to assume they do and plan our UI
> around that assumption. Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and
> probably no user documentation either.
> ...

That's a long-term goal to work towards: alerts replaced by bug fixes
and better design, and "user documentation" replaced by helpful help
and better design.

But that's not the issue here. The issue is, given that there is an
error alert, which alert text is better: "Nautilus could not open the
file because the filetype is unknown", or "&operatingsystem; cannot
play MP3 files, because some countries allow software patents and Free
Software cannot pay patent licenses".

--
Matthew Paul Thomas
http://mpt.net.nz/

_______________________________________________
Usability mailing list
Usability@gnome.org
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability

------=_Part_11777_20547401.1151422195993-- From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Tue Jun 27 11:47:32 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC2E73B0110 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:47:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06333-09 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:47:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C26043B0172 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:47:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bell.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.9] helo=bell.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 27 Jun 2006 16:46:39 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:46:38 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: Gnome usability In-Reply-To: <4d9c6c340606270829v76184a30t1873601ca705e921@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4d9c6c340606270829v76184a30t1873601ca705e921@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:47:32 -0000 On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Simon Francis wrote: > Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:29:55 -0400 > From: Simon Francis > To: Matthew Paul Thomas > Cc: Gnome usability > Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions > > But OpenOffice and AbiWord open my Word documents fine which have patents. Do they? The newer XML formats might have some dodgy patents but I don't think the older Microsoft Word .doc had any patents and Rich Text Format was intended for sharing documents with other word processors (RTF is what Abiword actually uses). -- Alan From liam@holoweb.net Tue Jun 27 18:01:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FEF03B009D for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 18:01:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18927-05 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 18:01:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hd-t1637cl.privatedns.com (ip-209-172-34-239.reverse.privatedns.com [209.172.34.239]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6DEEF3B00B3 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 18:01:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 22820 invoked from network); 27 Jun 2006 22:01:16 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?127.0.0.1?) (127.0.0.1) by hd-t1637cl.privatedns.com with SMTP; 27 Jun 2006 22:01:16 -0000 From: Liam R E Quin To: Matthew Paul Thomas In-Reply-To: References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=-/ZZWHMx5iFlopzfnwJPX" Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:56:21 -0400 Message-Id: <1151445381.25012.65.camel@dell.barefootcomputing.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.2-1mdv2007.0 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.498 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.034, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_50_60=0.134, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.498 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Gnome usability Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 22:01:47 -0000 --=-/ZZWHMx5iFlopzfnwJPX Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 15:42 +1200, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: [...] > But that's not the issue here. The issue is, given that there is an > error alert, which alert text is better: "Nautilus could not open the > file because the filetype is unknown", or "&operatingsystem; cannot > play MP3 files, because some countries allow software patents and Free > Software cannot pay patent licenses". The latter isn't true. That is, (1) the operating system is actually likely to be technically capable of supporting MP3 players, and (2) it's trying to play a piece of music (one imagines) and not in fact trying to play a patent :-) More importantly, the right message in practice might be The distributor of this operating environment did not obtain permission to ship support for MPEG sound decoding (e.g. mp3) from the holder(s) of patents on the required techniques. If you know that the legal issues do not affect you, you can install support for MP3 files [here]. Contact your local politician to register a protest against the way that ideas can belong to corporations [here]. People are more likely to read messages if, from time to time, they contain useful information. Explain the problem, and help people to understand the issues, and then help them to do something about it. best, Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org --=-/ZZWHMx5iFlopzfnwJPX Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 15:42 +1200, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
[...] 
But that's not the issue here. The issue is, given that there is an 
error alert, which alert text is better: "Nautilus could not open the 
file because the filetype is unknown", or "&operatingsystem; cannot 
play MP3 files, because some countries allow software patents and Free 
Software cannot pay patent licenses".

The latter isn't true.  That is,
(1) the operating system is actually likely to be technically capable
    of supporting MP3 players, and
(2) it's trying to play a piece of music (one imagines) and not in
    fact trying to play a patent :-)

More importantly, the right message in practice might be

    The distributor of this operating environment did not obtain
    permission to ship support for MPEG sound decoding (e.g. mp3)
    from the holder(s) of patents on the required techniques.

    If you know that the legal issues do not affect you, you can
    install support for MP3 files [here].

    Contact your local politician to register a protest against
    the way that ideas can belong to corporations [here].

People are more likely to read messages if, from time to time,
they contain useful information.  Explain the problem, and
help people to understand the issues, and then help them to
do something about it.

best,

Liam

-- 
Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org
--=-/ZZWHMx5iFlopzfnwJPX-- From mpt@myrealbox.com Wed Jun 28 03:21:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B1753B000F for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 03:21:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30217-06 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 03:21:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from leucothea.redline.site5.com (leucothea.redline.site5.com [216.118.97.161]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B86653B0010 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 03:21:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 203-173-178-53.bliink.ihug.co.nz ([203.173.178.53] helo=[10.1.1.5]) by leucothea.redline.site5.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.52) id 1FvULi-0003jt-Gr; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 03:20:36 -0400 In-Reply-To: References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Matthew Paul Thomas Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 19:20:29 +1200 To: Gnome usability X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.624) X-Antivirus-Scanner: This message has been scanned by ClamAV. X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - leucothea.redline.site5.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnome.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - myrealbox.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.532 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.067, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.532 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 07:21:45 -0000 On Jun 28, 2006, at 2:36 AM, Alan Horkan wrote: > > On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > ... >> "Nautilus could not open the file because the filetype is unknown", >> or "&operatingsystem; cannot play MP3 files, because some countries >> allow software patents and Free Software cannot pay patent licenses". > > ... there are so many things wrong with that second sentence I will > not criticize it other than to say I hope you will retract it, or > rephrase it. > ... That (like most of your postings, alas) is critical but utterly unhelpful. How specifically would you improve the sentence? (I'm assuming that Gnome is considered to be Free Software by default, and if a distributor charges money for the inclusion of MP3-playing proprietary software in their OS, they can patch the message to suit the rare case where you've uninstalled that software.) -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ From fraggle@gmail.com Wed Jun 28 05:57:15 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4766C3B0002 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 05:57:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02935-01 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 05:57:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.236]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2F5F3B0079 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 05:57:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 55so716444wri for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 02:56:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.230.8 with SMTP id h8mr1022414qbr; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 02:56:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.64.181.11 with HTTP; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 02:56:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <301d395f0606280256r707ec315s178e5efe70da7fce@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 10:56:31 +0100 From: "Simon Howard" To: "Francesco Stablum" In-Reply-To: <377fd1f30605260335r3ef7c556s3f6724c44f8236f6@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <377fd1f30605260335r3ef7c556s3f6724c44f8236f6@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.494 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.094, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.494 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Copy & paste problem X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:57:15 -0000 On 5/26/06, Francesco Stablum wrote: > The problem is that there are two clipboard buffers and it can be very > annoying and conterintuitive to new unix/gnome users. Why not making a > single buffer? Most users new to Unix are unlikely to know about the PRIMARY selection pasting method (select + middle click). The problems are that you can select text to make a PRIMARY-style "copy" operation, but doing a "paste" using edit-paste will paste the CLIPBOARD selection instead, and similarly a middle-click will paste the PRIMARY selection, which doesn't work if you did edit-copy. The problem is, the only way to combine the two systems would involve copying to the clipboard whenever text is selected. This would make things even more confusing than they already are - imagine someone who selects some text in application 1, selects "edit-copy", then goes to application 2, selects some text (to replace) and hits "edit-paste". Nothing happens, because the clipboard was overwritten the second time he selected any text. I'd say that users are unlikely to stumble across the PRIMARY select paste method anyway. It doesn't interfere with the normal copy-and-paste method, which is what most Unix newbies are going to use. -- Simon Howard http://www.soulsphere.org/ From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Wed Jun 28 08:05:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ABF63B0204 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:05:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09357-07 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:05:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.198]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AB34D3B01B2 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:04:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 10999 invoked by uid 60001); 28 Jun 2006 12:04:12 -0000 Message-ID: <20060628120412.10997.qmail@web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.216.7.206] by web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:04:12 BST Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:04:12 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Simon Howard , Francesco Stablum In-Reply-To: <301d395f0606280256r707ec315s178e5efe70da7fce@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.692 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.740, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.692 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Copy & paste problem X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:05:49 -0000 --- Simon Howard wrote: > On 5/26/06, Francesco Stablum > wrote: > > The problem is that there are two clipboard > buffers and it can be very > > annoying and conterintuitive to new unix/gnome > users. Why not making a > > single buffer? > > Most users new to Unix are unlikely to know about > the PRIMARY > selection pasting method (select + middle click). > The problems are > that you can select text to make a PRIMARY-style > "copy" operation, but > doing a "paste" using edit-paste will paste the > CLIPBOARD selection > instead, and similarly a middle-click will paste the > PRIMARY > selection, which doesn't work if you did edit-copy. > > The problem is, the only way to combine the two > systems would involve > copying to the clipboard whenever text is selected. > This would make > things even more confusing than they already are - > imagine someone who > selects some text in application 1, selects > "edit-copy", then goes to > application 2, selects some text (to replace) and > hits "edit-paste". > Nothing happens, because the clipboard was > overwritten the second time > he selected any text. > > I'd say that users are unlikely to stumble across > the PRIMARY select > paste method anyway. It doesn't interfere with the > normal > copy-and-paste method, which is what most Unix > newbies are going to > use. This is true -- however, the existence of the PRIMARY system does have an impact on users, because across all GTK application windows, there can be only one selection. This breaks users' expectations of what an application is, because something they do in one window can affect the state of selection in another. There's a bug open for this, but most solutions suggested so far are looking at ways to highlight the selection considered for PRIMARY in some way, and nothing proposed so far is entirely satisfactory. Could there be a way to combine the two systems? What about using middle-click-&-drag to select text to copy, and middle-click to paste, using the regular clipboard? ___________________________________________________________ Does your mail provider give you FREE antivirus protection? Get Yahoo! Mail http://uk.mail.yahoo.com From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Wed Jun 28 08:56:50 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDEEF3B00BE for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:56:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11067-05 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:56:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8BD6D3B0083 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:56:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 28 Jun 2006 13:56:13 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:56:13 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan To: Matthew Paul Thomas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Gnome usability Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:56:50 -0000 On Wed, 28 Jun 2006, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 19:20:29 +1200 > From: Matthew Paul Thomas > To: Gnome usability > Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions > > On Jun 28, 2006, at 2:36 AM, Alan Horkan wrote: > > > > On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > That (like most of your postings, alas) is critical but utterly > unhelpful. How specifically would you improve the sentence? See the post Liam Quinn made, it described the issue well. > >> "Nautilus could not open the file because the filetype is unknown", > >> or "&operatingsystem; cannot play MP3 files, because some countries > >> allow software patents and Free Software cannot pay patent licenses". Using the phrase "some countries" in the error message begs the questions which countries? These kinds of ambiguities are best avoided in error messages, it is like answering a users question with another question they are unlikely to know the answer to so it can be very annoying. Software patents may be the root cause of the problem but distributions could choose to license the software from Fleundo so it is a overly complicated way to preset the issue to the user in what should be short and simple error message. > > ... there are so many things wrong with that second sentence I will > > not criticize it other than to say I hope you will retract it, or > > rephrase it. I was hoping you could see that although your sentiment was well intentioned you propesd actions and confusing choice of text were "utterly unhelpful" (sic) but it seems you couldn't even recognise your own mistake and instead of getting all defensive about it and resorting to personal attacks. Admittedly my posts may be rushed and far from perfect but but I try only to provide some timely response of some kind rather than leave questions unanswered. I do not make any claims of expertise and I do not cry foul when others point my mistakes - it may be annoying but I try to learn from them and improve what I'm doing - since I am here to try and help make the software better in whatever way I can manage. I do not have the luxury of being employed to work on Free Software development. > (I'm assuming that Gnome is considered to be Free Software by default, That is not a safe assumption. Many Gnome developers do believe in the ideas of the Free Software Foundation but there is no certain answer that would make your assumption a safe one, Alan Cox and Richard Stallman are not clear on whether it is or not: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/2006-June/msg00098.html For the ordinary users the relevant points are the distributor has chosen not to license the software, or is prevented from (or at least believes the even the threat of legal action is not worth risking) includinging a free version due to legal reason. The freedom issue is important but secondary and only make the error message longer and more confusing. > and if a distributor charges money for the inclusion of MP3-playing > proprietary software in their OS, they can patch the message to suit > the rare case where you've uninstalled that software.) So showing a dialog might be suitable but the message must as simple and direct as possible. -- Alan H. From d2004@cosmopod.com Tue Jun 27 19:42:15 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F1C73B0010 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:42:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21597-07 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:42:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 64.cosmopod.com (unknown [216.75.2.64]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E949F3B0005 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:42:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 64.cosmopod.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by 64.cosmopod.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k5RNfGcX017982 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:41:17 -0700 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by 64.cosmopod.com (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k5RNf9TV017912 for usability@gnome.org; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:41:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: 64.cosmopod.com: d2004 set sender to d2004@cosmopod.com using -f From: d2004@cosmopod.com To: usability@gnome.org Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:41:04 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200606271641.06914.d2004@cosmopod.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.038, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_REAL_NAME=0.961] X-Spam-Score: -1.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:59:56 -0400 Subject: [Usability] Consistency Issue between EOG and gThumb X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 23:42:15 -0000 Dear All, I am a long time GNOME user (but not a developer) and occasional reader of this mailing list. This is my first post though. I have a small usability/consistency issue, which, though rather trivial, is something of a "pet hate" for me. On playing with Fedora Core 6 Test 1 last night, I saw it is still present in the GNOME development build 2.15.2, so I thought I would raise it with you. If the user opens a graphic in gThumb and maximises it to "Full Screen" view (F11) and then zooms in (+ key) they can pan around the image using the cursors. If they then want to move to the next or previous graphic in the directory, they can use the Page Up or Page Down keys. This is all fine, so far as I am concerned. Unfortunately, Eye of GNOME (EOG) has somewhat different behaviour, that makes the two tools inconsistent with each other. On opening a graphic, switching to "Full Screen" view and zooming in, the cursors can no longer be used for panning around. Instead, pressing the up, down, left or right cursors switch the user to the previous or next graphic in the directory. Panning must be done with the mouse instead of keyboard shortcuts. My preference would definitely be that EOG be modified so that the cursors are used for panning, not for moving forwards and backwards between graphics. I have a few other questions not necessarily related to usability but I thought I would raise them. I am aware of the legal/patent concerns around playing regionally-encrypted DVDs in some nations such as the US. I normally download the rpms for Xine, including the deCSS one and use that which works fine. However, having installed DeCSS on my system, I still cannot use Totem as my player. Does Totem need to be recompiled? It would be good to modify the application so that simply installing DeCSS would enable Totem to locate it as a plug-in, thus making the default player usable for those of us in countries without these legal issues by simply adding this one file. Secondly, I am quite intrigued by Project Soylent but there is little information with regard to release dates on the website. Do you have any indication when we will start seeing the fruits of this labour? Will it be in Topaz or in a future 2.x build? Thirdly, having seen the list of Chabada's suggestions that are currently being debated on this list, I can affirm that, as an end user, I would definitely find all that he has suggested to be of benefit, including extra file information displayed in Nautilus, the Evolution mail previews and the use of GNOME Baker as part of the core desktop. More explanation in error/information messages regarding why MP3s and the like cannot be played would also be a benefit in educating users, even if some people do not read the messages. Finally, keep up the good work. I would love to see GNOME gain some more momentum in terms of adoption by desktop users. Keep striving for it! Danni From gnome-Usability@m.gmane.org Wed Jun 28 15:54:19 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86C8C3B019A for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:54:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30946-06 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:54:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51A763B008A for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:54:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Fvg6m-0003PT-M8 for Usability@gnome.org; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:53:56 +0200 Received: from 208.255.6.238 ([208.255.6.238]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:53:56 +0200 Received: from hawke by 208.255.6.238 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:53:56 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: Usability@gnome.org From: Alex Mauer Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:53:44 -0500 Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1151445381.25012.65.camel@dell.barefootcomputing.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig1F6DB6AB10F6CA222F800EE1" X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.255.6.238 User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) In-Reply-To: <1151445381.25012.65.camel@dell.barefootcomputing.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Sender: news X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.933 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.168, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=1.5, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -0.933 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 19:54:19 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig1F6DB6AB10F6CA222F800EE1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> Software cannot pay patent licenses". >=20 > The latter isn't true. That is, > (2) it's trying to play a piece of music (one imagines) and not in > fact trying to play a patent :-) "pay" is not the same as "play" --------------enig1F6DB6AB10F6CA222F800EE1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEot5Pspyc9T9S9Z8RAheWAJ9P+Ten7TVJfNyqLpkMgxG5vqKctACeOgrB b22evmr31rdj0wWzBrwZboo= =5ySV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig1F6DB6AB10F6CA222F800EE1-- From gnome-Usability@m.gmane.org Wed Jun 28 16:05:19 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D6EA3B01CE for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:05:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31334-06 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:05:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F9DD3B00DA for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:05:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1FvgGS-00058t-VK for Usability@gnome.org; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:03:56 +0200 Received: from 208.255.6.238 ([208.255.6.238]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:03:56 +0200 Received: from hawke by 208.255.6.238 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:03:56 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: Usability@gnome.org From: Alex Mauer Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:02:18 -0500 Lines: 45 Message-ID: References: <301d395f0606280256r707ec315s178e5efe70da7fce@mail.gmail.com> <20060628120412.10997.qmail@web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigF18874BA74D82C3519B16B37" X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.255.6.238 User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) In-Reply-To: <20060628120412.10997.qmail@web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Sender: news X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.085 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=1.5, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.085 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Copy & paste problem X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:05:19 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigF18874BA74D82C3519B16B37 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Joachim Noreiko wrote: > This is true -- however, the existence of the PRIMARY > system does have an impact on users, because across > all GTK application windows, there can be only one > selection. This breaks users' expectations of what an > application is, because something they do in one > window can affect the state of selection in another. >=20 > There's a bug open for this, but most solutions > suggested so far are looking at ways to highlight the > selection considered for PRIMARY in some way, and > nothing proposed so far is entirely satisfactory. Has it been proposed that PRIMARY holds the most recent selection, but making a new selection does not deselect the previous one? This seems to be the closest match to expectations, while keeping interference between PRIMARY and clipboard to a minimum. Is there anything unsatisfactory about this? > Could there be a way to combine the two systems? Is there any need to? --------------enigF18874BA74D82C3519B16B37 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEouBRspyc9T9S9Z8RAifGAJ9KrY0cHyUjd6uyvn0T2JWvtaNApwCeM2A+ oAkMWT1YVKCZluP9R3Gt0cY= =h+Uw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigF18874BA74D82C3519B16B37-- From gezimetc@shaw.ca Thu Jun 29 02:32:15 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F166A3B0206 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:32:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22815-10 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:32:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pd2mo1so.prod.shaw.ca (shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net [24.71.223.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8A5A3B000B for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:32:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pd4mr8so.prod.shaw.ca (pd4mr8so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.101]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1L008GTZF4UU80@l-daemon> for Usability@gnome.org; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 00:30:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml1so.prod.shaw.ca ([10.0.121.145]) by pd4mr8so.prod.shaw.ca (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1L00048ZF4MRC0@pd4mr8so.prod.shaw.ca> for Usability@gnome.org; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 00:30:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from laptopi ([70.65.137.227]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1L006YPZF3RJ61@l-daemon> for Usability@gnome.org; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 00:30:40 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 00:30:39 -0600 From: Gezim Hoxha In-reply-to: To: Alex Mauer Message-id: <1151562639.7932.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <301d395f0606280256r707ec315s178e5efe70da7fce@mail.gmail.com> <20060628120412.10997.qmail@web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.394 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.837, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST=1.708, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.394 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Copy & paste problem X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 06:32:15 -0000 On Wed, 2006-28-06 at 15:02 -0500, Alex Mauer wrote: > Joachim Noreiko wrote: > > This is true -- however, the existence of the PRIMARY > > system does have an impact on users, because across > > all GTK application windows, there can be only one > > selection. This breaks users' expectations of what an > > application is, because something they do in one > > window can affect the state of selection in another. > > > > There's a bug open for this, but most solutions > > suggested so far are looking at ways to highlight the > > selection considered for PRIMARY in some way, and > > nothing proposed so far is entirely satisfactory. > > Has it been proposed that PRIMARY holds the most recent selection, but > making a new selection does not deselect the previous one? This seems > to be the closest match to expectations, while keeping interference > between PRIMARY and clipboard to a minimum. What you're saying is that PRIMARY should hold the second most recent selection (saying this because you say that it should hold the most recent selection but if you selection something that is no longer the most recent selection)? If this is the case than this behaviour is not necessarily desired, because if I select a URL and then open a new tab in epiphany, there is no URL so, I'd just place the cursor at the URL bar and want to paste the _most_ recent selection, rather then the second most recent one. However, if I wanted to go to that URL from the current tab, then I'd want to paste the second most recent selection since when I click the URL bar the current URL will be selected. -Gezim From dalibor.petricevic@iskon.hr Thu Jun 29 02:56:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5532A3B011E for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:56:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23860-03 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:56:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mxout2.iskon.hr (mxout2.iskon.hr [213.191.128.16]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 37F293B013B for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:56:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 14767 invoked from network); 29 Jun 2006 08:55:55 +0200 X-Remote-IP: 213.191.142.122 Received: from unknown (HELO mx.iskon.hr) (213.191.142.122) by mxout2.iskon.hr with SMTP; 29 Jun 2006 08:55:55 +0200 Received: (qmail 9508 invoked from network); 29 Jun 2006 08:55:55 +0200 X-Remote-IP: 213.191.128.133 Received: from lan.iskon.hr (HELO ?10.0.3.242?) (213.191.128.133) by mx.iskon.hr with SMTP; 29 Jun 2006 08:55:55 +0200 Message-ID: <44A3797B.7070509@iskon.hr> Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:55:55 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-2?Q?Dalibor_Petri=E8evi=E6?= User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Mauer References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1151445381.25012.65.camel@dell.barefootcomputing.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.11 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_05=-1.11] X-Spam-Score: -1.11 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 09:00:16 -0400 Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 06:56:03 -0000 Alex Mauer wrote: >>> Software cannot pay patent licenses". >> The latter isn't true. That is, >> (2) it's trying to play a piece of music (one imagines) and not in >> fact trying to play a patent :-) > > "pay" is not the same as "play" > This statement is 100% true. :-) -- dado From http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2002-02-06-013-20-RV-KE-0004 Matt Perrt - Subject: Re: Wish List for kde3 ( Feb 7, 2002, 00:16:08 ) I have but one wish for KDE3. Make the "about" menu of each program display a one or two paragraph summary of what the program is about. Move all the credits to a "credits" menu. For new computer users, it's misleading to have the about menu not tell you anything useful about the program. Flame away ;-) Gregory Merchan From maurizio.colucci@gmail.com Sat Jun 3 09:44:58 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84B783B0071 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 09:44:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06472-03 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 09:44:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.225]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C22D3B04A9 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 09:44:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 50so711416wri for ; Sat, 03 Jun 2006 06:44:54 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=ueyQCybpWPMALDzDI3limxwRxIl77AriXASXgdjlnwOf+AW372pd6t9Vb64sFv7dsEpKBavtuMpnHsa4Xdronef3L9406qVAygiWe4PvwRYktPpImW1ASpjnKdnamNKMdXcz01o7/cM+dRHHr0HLE4di4q6Ou3KdSXFa3hRNpCo= Received: by 10.64.195.9 with SMTP id s9mr2455617qbf; Sat, 03 Jun 2006 06:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.237.7 with HTTP; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 06:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 15:44:54 +0200 From: "Maurizio Colucci" To: usability@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_18723_27366656.1149342294208" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.457 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.142, BAYES_05=-1.11, HTML_00_10=0.795, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.457 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Usability] Fingerprint reader X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 13:44:58 -0000 ------=_Part_18723_27366656.1149342294208 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi, Yesterday, when I had a friend of mine try the new Ubuntu, I had an unpleasant suprise: he laughed at me when he saw me type the password by hand. It seems he has been using a fingerprint reader under Windows, for more than a year now. I realized this is a feature that he will not do without, now he has gotten used to it. It seems the advantage under GNU/Linux would be even greater, since GNU/Linux requires you to type passwords more often than Windows. Is there some way to use a fingerprint reader to type passwords with Gnome? (My guess is it isn't, and that some work would be needed at the level of gksu and gdm.) I have no real point however, I only wished to inform you about this. Cheers Maurizio ------=_Part_18723_27366656.1149342294208 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi,
Yesterday, when I had a friend of mine try the new Ubuntu, I had an unpleasant suprise: he laughed at me when he saw me type the password by hand. It seems he has been using a fingerprint reader under Windows, for more than a year now.

I realized this is a feature that he will not do without, now he has gotten used to it.

It seems the advantage under GNU/Linux would be even greater, since GNU/Linux requires you to type passwords more often than Windows.

Is there some way to use a fingerprint reader to type passwords with Gnome? (My guess is it isn't, and that some work would be needed at the level of gksu and gdm.)

I have no real point however, I only wished to inform you about this. Cheers

Maurizio
------=_Part_18723_27366656.1149342294208-- From herzi@gnome-de.org Sat Jun 3 10:16:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39D073B0418 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:16:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08377-05 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:16:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.bytecamp.net (mail.bytecamp.net [212.204.60.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4B0413B011C for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:16:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 49673 invoked by uid 85); 3 Jun 2006 14:16:19 -0000 Received: from herzi@gnome-de.org by mail.bytecamp.net by uid 88 with qmail-scanner-1.20 (clamscan: 0.88.1 Clear:RC:0(80.171.61.188):. Processed in 0.020755 secs); 03 Jun 2006 14:16:19 -0000 Received: from d061188.adsl.hansenet.de (HELO wallace) (herzi%gnome-de.org@80.171.61.188) by mail.bytecamp.net with SMTP; 3 Jun 2006 14:16:18 -0000 Subject: Re: [Usability] Fingerprint reader From: Sven Herzberg To: Maurizio Colucci In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-eRqHlUcxkMCx8gO/XwrP" Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 17:35:30 +0200 Message-Id: <1149348930.5442.12.camel@wallace> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.48 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.042, BAYES_00=-2.599, TW_GD=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.48 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 14:16:27 -0000 --=-eRqHlUcxkMCx8gO/XwrP Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sa, 2006-06-03 at 15:44 +0200, Maurizio Colucci wrote: > Yesterday, when I had a friend of mine try the new Ubuntu, I had an > unpleasant suprise: he laughed at me when he saw me type the password > by hand. It seems he has been using a fingerprint reader under > Windows, for more than a year now.=20 >=20 > I realized this is a feature that he will not do without, now he has > gotten used to it.=20 >=20 > It seems the advantage under GNU/Linux would be even greater, since > GNU/Linux requires you to type passwords more often than Windows.=20 >=20 > Is there some way to use a fingerprint reader to type passwords with > Gnome? (My guess is it isn't, and that some work would be needed at > the level of gksu and gdm.)=20 The fingerprint readers in the Thinkpad X41 series do work with Linux and work with the pam-bio-api plugin. I tested this both with gdm and gksu and it works (not perfectly but, well, it wors). I only didn't test it with gnome keyring (which will be an important thing too). > I have no real point however, I only wished to inform you about this. > Cheers=20 Regards, Sven --=-eRqHlUcxkMCx8gO/XwrP Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEgaxCBWX9a7HDCv4RAn03AKDFQ6419PZ/XzvvDpkjxBimpH0sywCfawZV RYa+Y4FgXJ2XedGWhwxW8uc= =Ocwk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-eRqHlUcxkMCx8gO/XwrP-- From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Sat Jun 3 10:17:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D17B43B05AE for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:17:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08314-10 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:17:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 28FB03B0601 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:17:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 3 Jun 2006 15:17:44 +0100 (BST) Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 15:17:44 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan To: Maurizio Colucci Subject: Re: [Usability] Fingerprint reader In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 14:17:50 -0000 On Sat, 3 Jun 2006, Maurizio Colucci wrote: > Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 15:44:54 +0200 > From: Maurizio Colucci > To: usability@gnome.org > Subject: [Usability] Fingerprint reader > > Hi, > Yesterday, when I had a friend of mine try the new Ubuntu, I had an > unpleasant suprise: he laughed at me when he saw me type the password by > hand. It seems he has been using a fingerprint reader under Windows, for > more than a year now. This is a bit off topic for this list. Better to check with Ubuntu about hardware support. > It seems the advantage under GNU/Linux would be even greater, since > GNU/Linux requires you to type passwords more often than Windows. (It is easier to just type Gnome than GNU/Linux every time.) A topic more appropriate to this list would be trying to figure out ways to improve password sharing and single sign on so that you do not need to type passwords so often. > Is there some way to use a fingerprint reader to type passwords with Gnome? I assume it would fit in with the existing password infrastructure. I know Sun Microsystems have systems setup to login and authenticate off a smart card and there are suggestions of doing the same using USB keys so I'd be surprised if there wasn't already a supported finger print reader but it may take a little bit of additional work to get it up and running. > I have no real point however, I only wished to inform you about this. Cheers Thanks for trying. -- Alan From elektro@geekspot.de Sun Jun 4 11:01:01 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10C033B016C for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 11:01:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24057-03 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 11:00:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.169199.vserver.de (riedrich.biz [62.75.169.199]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45FC53B011B for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 11:00:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.169199.vserver.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id E21EB338804F for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:00:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp.169199.vserver.de ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (169199.vserver.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19483-02 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:00:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Desktop.lan (d463d0c7.datahighways.de [212.99.208.199]) by smtp.169199.vserver.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4E35338804D for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:00:39 +0200 (CEST) From: elektro To: usability@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 17:00:39 +0200 Message-Id: <1149433239.10978.15.camel@desktop> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: By ClamAV on Debian GNU/Linux at Geekspot X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.465 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.465 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Usability] The "Desktop" dilemma X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 15:01:01 -0000 Hi there, I'm new to this mailing list, so I don't know if this has already been discussed or not. What really disturbs me a lot (in almost all operating systems) is the "Desktop dilemma". I think the desktop folder, or the Desktop button in the places menu somehow just doesn't fit in. In Nautilus, in my home folder, I have a "Desktop" folder. But in the sidebar, I have a place called "personal folder", and a second place called "Desktop", although "Desktop" is also a sub-directory of my "personal folder". This is confusing, especially to new users. I think the desktop should be _either_ a directory, _or_ a place, but not both. My suggestion would be to have the desktop only show up as a place, and the files on the desktop could be stored in a hidden ".desktop" directory within the user's home. Another thing is the two Nautilus toolbar buttons "Personal folder" and "Computer". The button in the toolbar says "Personal folder", while the same button in the sidebar reads my username. I think both buttons should be removed, instead, the "Computer" icon should also appear as a button in the "places" sidebar. I'd bring some new arrangement into the places sidebar, similar to the one in the "Places" menu in the panel: -------- Personal Desktop -------- Computer File system -------- Network servers -------- The problem with the current layout is that all drives are completely mixed together, the "file system" place is also somewhere in between. When you go the the "Computer" place, you see all attached/mounted drives as icons. The problem is that it's hard to see if a drive is actually mounted or not, for example my USB stick: It's hard to see from the icon if it is mounted or not. What I also really miss is the ability to unmount/eject an external drive be right-clicking the icon in the sidebar or in the Places menu. Mac OS X is doing this right: An mounted CD-ROM appars in a Finder sidebar, similar to Nautilus, but there's a little "eject button" next to the icon, when you click this, the CD is unmounted and ejected. Perhaps you could add such an eject button to the places sidebar and the places panel menu. Tom From david@sipsolutions.net Sun Jun 4 14:35:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B06D43B017A for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 14:35:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03644-08 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 14:35:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sipsolutions.net (crystal.sipsolutions.net [195.210.38.204]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DE083B0130 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 14:35:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [84.133.205.221] (helo=[192.168.1.7]) by sipsolutions.net with esmtpsa (TLS-1.0:RSA_ARCFOUR_MD5:16) (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FmxRy-0007EF-Op; Sun, 04 Jun 2006 19:35:47 +0100 Subject: Re: [Usability] The "Desktop" dilemma From: David Christian Berg To: elektro In-Reply-To: <1149433239.10978.15.camel@desktop> References: <1149433239.10978.15.camel@desktop> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 20:34:58 +0200 Message-Id: <1149446101.8310.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 18:35:51 -0000 Hey Tom! > I think the desktop should be _either_ a directory, _or_ a place, but > not both. My suggestion would be to have the desktop only show up as a > place, and the files on the desktop could be stored in a hidden > ".desktop" directory within the user's home. Would you be ok with displaying the desktop as a desktop icon in the home directory as well so that it's easily distinguishable from other folders? > Another thing is the two Nautilus toolbar buttons "Personal folder" and > "Computer". The button in the toolbar says "Personal folder", while the > same button in the sidebar reads my username. I think both buttons > should be removed, instead, the "Computer" icon should also appear as a > button in the "places" sidebar. In my version the folder reads "Home Folder" and the button "Go to home folder" I don't think there's anything wrong with this, because many people might not use the tree view on the sidepane. The computer icon is not needed in the tree view, because you see the drives anyways > I'd bring some new arrangement into the places sidebar, similar to the > one in the "Places" menu in the panel: > > -------- > Personal > Desktop > -------- > Computer > File system > > > > -------- > Network servers > > -------- > The problem with the current layout is that all drives are completely > mixed together, the "file system" place is also somewhere in between. I do like the idea of dividing them this way and also would add a separate section for mounted media like cams and usb sticks, floppies and CDs... if possible. However, does GTK TreeView have a dividing element? As for the Computer: I'd leave it unchanged > When you go the the "Computer" place, you see all attached/mounted > drives as icons. The problem is that it's hard to see if a drive is > actually mounted or not, for example my USB stick: It's hard to see from > the icon if it is mounted or not. What I also really miss is the ability > to unmount/eject an external drive be right-clicking the icon in the > sidebar or in the Places menu. Mac OS X is doing this right: An mounted > CD-ROM appars in a Finder sidebar, similar to Nautilus, but there's a > little "eject button" next to the icon, when you click this, the CD is > unmounted and ejected. Perhaps you could add such an eject button to the > places sidebar and the places panel menu. Afaik you only see the icon, if it is mounted... at least it should be that way with all the media. Take care! David From chris@gnome-de.org Mon Jun 5 09:09:35 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 849453B0208 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:09:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00391-01 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:09:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.bytecamp.net (mail.bytecamp.net [212.204.60.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 56FE63B02DA for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:09:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 3177 invoked by uid 85); 5 Jun 2006 13:09:21 -0000 Received: from chris@gnome-de.org by mail.bytecamp.net by uid 88 with qmail-scanner-1.20 (clamscan: 0.88.1 Clear:RC:0(84.150.144.79):. Processed in 0.190123 secs); 05 Jun 2006 13:09:21 -0000 Received: from p5496904f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (HELO ?192.168.123.191?) (chris@gnome-de.org@84.150.144.79) by mail.bytecamp.net with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 13:09:20 -0000 Subject: Re: [Usability] Fingerprint reader From: Christian Neumair To: Maurizio Colucci In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 15:02:50 +0200 Message-Id: <1149512570.8272.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.587 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.012, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.587 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:09:35 -0000 Am Samstag, den 03.06.2006, 15:44 +0200 schrieb Maurizio Colucci: > Hi, > Yesterday, when I had a friend of mine try the new Ubuntu, I had an > unpleasant suprise: he laughed at me when he saw me type the password > by hand. It seems he has been using a fingerprint reader under > Windows, for more than a year now. > > I realized this is a feature that he will not do without, now he has > gotten used to it. > > It seems the advantage under GNU/Linux would be even greater, since > GNU/Linux requires you to type passwords more often than Windows. > > Is there some way to use a fingerprint reader to type passwords with > Gnome? (My guess is it isn't, and that some work would be needed at > the level of gksu and gdm.) > > I have no real point however, I only wished to inform you about this. > Cheers I filed an Ubuntu spec some months ago: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FingerprintAuthentication All the tools seem to be available already. As soon as the framework is in place, we'll adapt the GNOME stack to support it, creating a configuration and authentication UI, and gnome-keyring integration. I contacted the BioAPI packager Michael R. Crusoe some time ago to ask him whether he will split up the packages a bit, but I didn't get any response so far. From hadess@hadess.net Mon Jun 5 15:50:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9155B3B085A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:50:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26525-04 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:50:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lucifer.nerdfest.org (lucifer.nerdfest.org [216.243.209.218]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 426593B08B0 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:50:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.5] (cpc4-glfd1-0-0-cust751.glfd.cable.ntl.com [86.16.126.240]) (authenticated bits=0) by lucifer.nerdfest.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k55JoPoh009983 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:50:28 -0500 Subject: Re: [Usability] Fingerprint reader From: Bastien Nocera To: Maurizio Colucci In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:55:11 +0100 Message-Id: <1149537312.9198.9.camel@wyatt.hadess.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.5.90 (2.5.90-2.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.88.2/1512/Sun Jun 4 04:58:49 2006 on lucifer.nerdfest.org X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.594 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.006, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.594 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:50:45 -0000 On Sat, 2006-06-03 at 15:44 +0200, Maurizio Colucci wrote: > Hi, > Yesterday, when I had a friend of mine try the new Ubuntu, I had an > unpleasant suprise: he laughed at me when he saw me type the password > by hand. It seems he has been using a fingerprint reader under > Windows, for more than a year now. A combination of pam_keyring, and the pam modules Sven mentioned should do: http://www.hekanetworks.com/index.php/publisher/articleview/frmArticleID/25/staticId/31/ -- Bastien Nocera From glatzor@ubuntu.com Tue Jun 6 08:03:14 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEBF33B08AA for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:03:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19222-06 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:03:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail-out.m-online.net (mail-out.m-online.net [212.18.0.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6463D3B0979 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:02:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail01.m-online.net (svr21.m-online.net [192.168.3.149]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76F2672CC4 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:02:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pimpzkru.dyndns.org (ppp-62-245-208-121.mnet-online.de [62.245.208.121]) by mail.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CBC891424 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:02:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pimpzkru.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE831D2C38 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:16:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pimpzkru.dyndns.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (server.daheim [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32591-08 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:16:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from sebi-mac.daheim (sebi-mac.daheim [10.169.18.2]) by pimpzkru.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9B05D2C2C for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:16:31 +0200 (CEST) From: Sebastian Heinlein To: usability@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 14:01:40 +0200 Message-Id: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at pimpzkru X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.435 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.029, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.435 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Usability] Using nouns or verbs for the disclosure widgets X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:03:15 -0000 Hi, would you recommend to use a noun for the disclosure widgets e.g. "Details" or verbs e.g. "Show details"/"Hide details"? There is no corresponding section in the HIG. And both variants are in use currently. Regards, Sebastian From raeth.phox@gmail.com Tue Jun 6 08:19:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9826F3B08AA for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:19:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20110-07 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:19:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.172]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7004D3B0141 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:19:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id o2so1645338uge for ; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 05:18:59 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=tzLanvgM7DJ/K0gtFSV1wYYqtq8vky0oxlEnHI8oKGZofqP/pbVnOLV7L7iYyewPK9Gme2GZTeyuoMqaNb3XagvchsF2X4ZxJVbIEFZZLbxc9pw44qz/1fjm8q28B7cABezCyBe6Dbv4CVDkQNx8+mmYVGk7Jp+NK9CFUNLM1Tg= Received: by 10.78.18.1 with SMTP id 1mr1130306hur; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 05:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.50.15 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 05:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <878a8ff60606060518h749cc845x32a54fa2ded2650d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 13:18:59 +0100 From: Raeth Subject: Re: [Usability] Using nouns or verbs for the disclosure widgets Cc: usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.042 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.558, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.042 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:19:03 -0000 Hey, I'd go with "Show/Hide details", as it indicates whether the details are being currently shown or hidden. I think a verb would be more fitting with natural language. If I wanted to see the details, I'd want to "show details". I wouldn't go "details" to hide or show them. If they were on a tab you'd want the objective noun, like a title, but seeing as the disclosure widget is an action, I'd go with an action phrase. A verb would correspond with the such commonly used verbs as "save file" and "cancel". Raeth On 6/6/06, Sebastian Heinlein wrote: > Hi, > > would you recommend to use a noun for the disclosure widgets e.g. > "Details" or verbs e.g. "Show details"/"Hide details"? > > There is no corresponding section in the HIG. And both variants are in > use currently. > > Regards, > > Sebastian From Calum.Benson@Sun.COM Tue Jun 6 18:39:53 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81A1D3B01E8 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 18:39:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26404-10 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 18:39:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B08643B00E6 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 18:39:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-01.sun.com (d1-emea-01.sun.com [192.18.2.111] (may be forged)) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k56Mdlui019400 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 23:39:47 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-01.sun.com by d1-emea-01.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0G00H01HQ39T00@d1-emea-01.sun.com> (original mail from Calum.Benson@Sun.COM) for usability@gnome.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 23:39:46 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([213.202.177.89]) by d1-emea-01.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0G00IGYMYAOE00@d1-emea-01.sun.com>; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 23:39:46 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 23:39:43 +0100 From: Calum Benson Subject: Re: [Usability] Using nouns or verbs for the disclosure widgets In-reply-to: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> Sender: Calum.Benson@Sun.COM To: Sebastian Heinlein Message-id: <5FB97E1B-5914-4EB7-9674-ADDF1C47C503@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 22:39:53 -0000 On 6 Jun 2006, at 13:01, Sebastian Heinlein wrote: > would you recommend to use a noun for the disclosure widgets e.g. > "Details" or verbs e.g. "Show details"/"Hide details"? Hmm... out if interest I looked at the Apple guidelines, and it said that verbs were preferred, then illustrated the guideline with an example using a noun :) Seems like it's not just our HIG that has that kind of problem... http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/ OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGControls/chapter_18_section_7.html#//apple_ref/ doc/uid/TP30000359-TPXREF141 Personally, I've always labelled disclosure widgets in the same way I'd label a frame, i.e. with a noun (but without the bold text, of course). The direction of the arrow, in conjunction with the presence or absence of controls below it, seems sufficient to indicate the current shown/hidden status IMHO. And dynamically changing text is never much fun for screenreaders to keep up with either. > There is no corresponding section in the HIG. Yeah, that placeholder's been there a while :/ I really want to get stuck into the HIG post-GUADEC (assuming I'm not one of Sun's unlucky 5000....) Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:calum.benson@sun.com Java Desktop System Team http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Wed Jun 7 05:42:50 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13CA93B0C9A for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 05:42:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32165-01 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 05:42:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 339AA3B0AE7 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 05:42:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 7 Jun 2006 10:42:44 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 10:42:42 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan To: Calum Benson Subject: Re: [Usability] Using nouns or verbs for the disclosure widgets In-Reply-To: <5FB97E1B-5914-4EB7-9674-ADDF1C47C503@sun.com> Message-ID: References: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> <5FB97E1B-5914-4EB7-9674-ADDF1C47C503@sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 09:42:50 -0000 On Tue, 6 Jun 2006, Calum Benson wrote: [...] > Yeah, that placeholder's been there a while :/ I really want to get > stuck into the HIG post-GUADEC (assuming I'm not one of Sun's unlucky > 5000....) If you are among the unlucky hundreds it would be a serious loss to Gnome, since you seem to be the only usability professional actively helping on this list anymore. If there are other usability professionals here rather than enthusiastic amateurs please do feel free to (re)introduce yourselves. -- Alan From gnome-Usability@m.gmane.org Wed Jun 7 18:55:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11D1B3B0E64 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 18:55:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20656-09 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 18:55:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2131A3B0DED for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 18:55:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Fo6w6-0002OX-Iw for Usability@gnome.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:55:38 +0200 Received: from h-68-165-5-38.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.5.38]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:55:38 +0200 Received: from wohler by h-68-165-5-38.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:55:38 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: Usability@gnome.org From: Bill Wohler Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 15:55:24 -0700 Organization: Newt Software Lines: 20 Message-ID: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: h-68-165-5-38.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:VJ8cSiv38JexgyR7BZmb2CDKtXA= Sender: news X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 22:55:52 -0000 I think it is common to use C-PageUp and C-PageDown to move between tabs (for example, Galeon). Is this true? The latest version of GnuCash has tabs, and I'd like to be able to use keyboard navigation to move between them. Note that the tabs have different views using different GTK widgets. Currently, some of the tabs, such as the account tree view, allow C-M-PageUp and C-M-PageDown. Should the developers override the GtkTreeView widget so that C-PageUp and C-PageDown move between the tabs? Should this widget be fixed so that these keystrokes move between tabs by default? Or, something else entirely? I look forward to your thoughts. -- Bill Wohler http://www.newt.com/wohler/ GnuPG ID:610BD9AD Maintainer of comp.mail.mh FAQ and MH-E. If you're passed on the right, you're in the wrong lane. From newren@gmail.com Wed Jun 7 19:18:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDB033B0381 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:18:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22064-05 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:18:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.196]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B32933B019C for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:18:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so308940wxd for ; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 16:18:46 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=TWqobyNh87WUejW4RD35y63ZAvcLUk+QGiLvnvF+KPzTm9RHFZF5VjW7d7y89W/8kJt5+sbkOZFTBJUsJR1d8YM4amj/MEV+YRxnVBediNYQs9Km6z3RNHwua8n60ly83WjGy6d7j97OMrGnJZgPCTD6u1syejJPGylqaWkIzho= Received: by 10.70.73.15 with SMTP id v15mr1343030wxa; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 16:18:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.7 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 16:18:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 17:18:28 -0600 From: "Elijah Newren" To: "Bill Wohler" Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs In-Reply-To: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.575 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.575 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 23:18:49 -0000 On 6/7/06, Bill Wohler wrote: > I think it is common to use C-PageUp and C-PageDown to move between > tabs (for example, Galeon). Is this true? Also used by Mozilla, Firefox, Epiphany, X-Chat, and gnome-terminal, at least. I was planning on adding a keybinding based off it (C-A-PageUp/PageDown) for Metacity for multiscreen (non-xinerama) users to switch the focus between screens (see bug 101659). So, I'd say it's becoming fairly common. Would be nice if there were even greater consistency among apps in this area (gedit, for example, doesn't play along and it took me a while to figure out the keybinding). From Calum.Benson@Sun.COM Wed Jun 7 19:42:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5B033B0E85 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:42:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23635-02 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:42:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D516F3B036A for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:42:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-05.sun.com (d1-emea-05.sun.com [192.18.2.115] (may be forged)) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k57NgGIx020123 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 00:42:16 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-05.sun.com by d1-emea-05.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0I00K01DXE8100@d1-emea-05.sun.com> (original mail from Calum.Benson@Sun.COM) for Usability@gnome.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:42:15 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([194.125.112.30]) by d1-emea-05.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0I00I7RKIFLH30@d1-emea-05.sun.com>; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:42:15 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:42:11 +0100 From: Calum Benson Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs In-reply-to: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> Sender: Calum.Benson@Sun.COM To: Bill Wohler Message-id: <8D893175-CF50-4807-B113-1A7D97A2E36A@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 23:42:20 -0000 On 7 Jun 2006, at 23:55, Bill Wohler wrote: > I think it is common to use C-PageUp and C-PageDown to move between > tabs (for example, Galeon). Is this true? > > The latest version of GnuCash has tabs, and I'd like to be able to use > keyboard navigation to move between them. Note that the tabs have > different views using different GTK widgets. Currently, some of the > tabs, such as the account tree view, allow C-M-PageUp and > C-M-PageDown. > > Should the developers override the GtkTreeView widget so that > C-PageUp and C-PageDown move between the tabs? Should this widget be > fixed so that these keystrokes move between tabs by default? Or, > something else entirely? Well, Ctrl-Alt-PgUp/PgDn is the documented[1] alternative for places that Ctrl-PgUp/PgDn doesn't/can't work (i.e. because of the focused control using Ctrl-PgUp/PgDn itself). Unless we can come up with a plan for avoiding the collisions that require the use of Alt in some situations, I'd recommend sticking with the current consistent-if-a- little-clunky behaviour, rather than overriding it in some places but (inevitably) not others. Cheeri, Calum. [1] http://www.gnome.org/learn/access-guide/latest/ keynav-23.html#keynav-33 -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:calum.benson@sun.com Java Desktop System Team http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems From mpt@myrealbox.com Wed Jun 7 20:08:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 565953B04C8 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 20:08:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24932-06 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 20:08:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from leucothea.redline.site5.com (leucothea.redline.site5.com [216.118.97.161]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A22143B0384 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 20:08:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ool-44c0bc13.dyn.optonline.net ([68.192.188.19] helo=[192.168.0.5]) by leucothea.redline.site5.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.52) id 1Fo84Q-0007No-7s; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 20:08:18 -0400 In-Reply-To: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> References: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <83a57a3908c9daadda5812fafca772a5@myrealbox.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Matthew Paul Thomas Subject: Re: [Usability] Using nouns or verbs for the disclosure widgets Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 20:07:37 -0400 To: Gnome usability X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.623) X-Antivirus-Scanner: This message has been scanned by ClamAV. X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - leucothea.redline.site5.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnome.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - myrealbox.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:08:27 -0000 On Jun 6, 2006, at 8:01 AM, Sebastian Heinlein wrote: > ... > would you recommend to use a noun for the disclosure widgets e.g. > "Details" or verbs e.g. "Show details"/"Hide details"? > ... Hi Sebastian I suggest making the label a summary of the values of the disclosed controls, if practical, not just a description. "Details" is the least informative example of a description, and may be appropriate if you want the expander to be very unobtrusive. But a more informative label may reduce the need for people to expand the section at all. For example, |> Progress details which expands to __ \/ Progress details Time remaining: about 11 minutes Progress: 15 of 29 items Copying: vilanova_presentation.ogg Size: 10.0 MB of 45.0 MB is much less useful than |> Time remaining: about 11 minutes which expands to __ \/ Time remaining: about 11 minutes Progress: 15 of 29 items Copying: vilanova_presentation.ogg Size: 10.0 MB of 45.0 MB Conversely, a more informative label may give a clue of unusual things that you set accidentally, or that you set long ago and then forgot about. For example: __ \/ Custom style sheet (2 rules active) __________________________________________________________ |:link, :visited {text-decoration: underline !important} | |a[href^="javascript:"] {color: green !important} | | | |__________________________________________________________| Switching between "Show Foo" and "Hide Foo" would make the function of the control more obvious, but it would also make the label jump around between collapsed and expanded states. It also would result in ugly repetition where several expander controls were next to each other. For example, repeating "Show" Printing the heading for each in a formatting palette would expandable area by itself is look nasty: much easier to scan: ___________________________ ___________________________ |(X) Formatting (-)| |(X) Formatting (-)| |___________________________| |___________________________| |_>_Show_Font_Settings______| |_>_Font____________________| |_>_Show_Paragraph_Settings_| |_>_Paragraph_______________| |_>_Show_List_Settings______| |_>_List____________________| |_>_Show_Border_Settings____| |_>_Border__________________| |_>_Show_Page_Settings______| |_>_Page____________________| Cheers -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ From nigel.tao.gnome@gmail.com Thu Jun 8 02:08:21 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B93C23B0585 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 02:08:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10570-08 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 02:08:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.229]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8F183B0576 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 02:08:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 50so362302wri for ; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 23:08:17 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=G3ca7jhamDoCoDkkhkKhrUk2Q8C8QWNKTdZLp99+4qZYcnpQa0AU5XGm6ozUs1WCS3EzZwoGN55kTdpnL2dlPPIx9cpa5uYOGLhRDC8u+PuWuWFWj4zh5KNrGruUt74CaE1J7kC758zhIHElrqc9XnBPALEbQIL98Mb9LntRxtE= Received: by 10.64.47.19 with SMTP id u19mr1451658qbu; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 23:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.214.18 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 23:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9188fcea0606072308n35ce5008xcd047c8cd7fca53d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 16:08:16 +1000 From: "Nigel Tao" To: "Elijah Newren" Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs In-Reply-To: <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.569 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.031, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.569 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org, Bill Wohler X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 06:08:21 -0000 > Would be nice if there were even > greater consistency among apps in this area (gedit, for example, > doesn't play along and it took me a while to figure out the > keybinding). Somewhat tangential, I recently wrote a gedit plugin so that C-PageUp and C-PageDown switches between tabs. C-A-PageUp and C-A-PageDown still works, too. http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gedit-list/2006-May/msg00039.html From nudrema@gmail.com Thu Jun 8 02:10:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 508793B0564 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 02:10:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10923-04 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 02:10:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swip.net (mailfe03.swip.net [212.247.154.65]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C74D73B0576 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 02:10:38 -0400 (EDT) X-T2-Posting-ID: Ee7YIbSG3O5rNcT4cGADretWTWrDEjpwS9FwzyhFhzk= X-Cloudmark-Score: 0.000000 [] Received: from [83.182.30.136] (HELO [10.0.0.13]) by mailfe03.swip.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.8) with ESMTP id 217242419 for Usability@gnome.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 08:10:36 +0200 Message-ID: <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 08:10:33 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Steve_Fr=E9cinaux?= User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060522) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.964 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.434, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_NEUTRAL=1.069] X-Spam-Score: -1.964 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 06:10:41 -0000 Elijah Newren wrote: > On 6/7/06, Bill Wohler wrote: >> I think it is common to use C-PageUp and C-PageDown to move between >> tabs (for example, Galeon). Is this true? > > Also used by Mozilla, Firefox, Epiphany, X-Chat, and gnome-terminal, > at least. Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown is the accelerator the HIG recommend for the Gnome desktop. > I was planning on adding a keybinding based off it > (C-A-PageUp/PageDown) for Metacity for multiscreen (non-xinerama) > users to switch the focus between screens (see bug 101659). So, I'd > say it's becoming fairly common. Before doing that remember that Ctrl+Alt+PageUp/PageDown is the fallback shortcut for switching tabs that is used when Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown is not available. It's stated in the HIG (iirc) and is used, for instance, by gedit. > Would be nice if there were even > greater consistency among apps in this area (gedit, for example, > doesn't play along and it took me a while to figure out the > keybinding). Gedit suffers the same problem than Bill's software: the Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown key combination is eaten by GtkTextView, at Gtk level (for going to the next/previous paragraph, iirc). The actual accelerator will be more discoverable in further gedit versions since there is now a menu entry for switching tab (as there is one in epiphany, for instance) From lool+gnome@via.ecp.fr Thu Jun 8 15:47:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 617B03B04B1 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 15:47:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00800-04 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 15:47:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx0.bpl-group.org (mx0.bpl-group.org [195.115.71.69]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D15523B0766 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 15:47:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bee.dooz.org (levallois.dooz.org [81.57.180.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "lminier.people.bpl-group.org", Issuer "BPL Group People Certification Authority" (verified OK)) by mx0.bpl-group.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BDAEC4C9; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 21:47:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: by bee.dooz.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4E5D24F02FA; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 21:47:22 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 21:47:22 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lo=EFc?= Minier To: usability@gnome.org, 371882@bugs.debian.org Message-ID: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.575 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.024, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.575 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 19:47:33 -0000 Hi, Michael Gilbert (michael.s.gilbert -at- gmail.com) explained his experience when introducing GNOME to people otherwise running Windows in Debian bug http://bugs.debian.org/371882: """ at work the other day a couple windows-locked coworkers of mine were attempting to use a fedora system. they were attempting to figure out if a particular application was available on the system. they had no idea where to go to do a file search (they expected it to be in the start menu, but gave up after they found it wasn't under applications). so then they tried nautilus, but couldn't figure out where to go. they dropped down to / where they were even more dumbfounded. a comment was "what are all these directories and how am i supposed to find anything in this mess." i suggested looking in /usr/local and /opt but both came up empty. i suggested that they try the search under the gnome places menu, at which point they were able to find some similarity to their expectations. at first they used the defaults and only searched in their home directory (inadvertently assuming that the file must not be on the disk even though their search path was too limited), at which point i said you should search from the / directory. they opened the gnome file selector, and could not figure out how to pick / (in fact they didn't understand the concept of /, or how it relates to something like c:). i also didn't know how to select / directly from the gnome file selector this, but eventually figured out if you select the topmost directory breakout at the top of the file selector that you will get / as your selection. this is very non-obvious and needs to be fixed. so they tried their search, which completed *way* too fast for their expectations (likely because they are used to windows searches taking significant time to search an entire disk because file lists are not cached as scrollkeeper does). so i did a "find / | grep fname" which also came up empty to indicate to them that indeed the file they were looking for was not on the system. at one point another comment was "it seems like they do things differently just to be different," referring to the gnome desktop in general vs windows. anyway, hope you can find some useful bits from the mindset virgin gnome users. need more details? just ask. """ I initially tried opening a discussion at , but was suggested that this list would be a better place. (Please keep 371882@bdo in copy and add 371882-submitter@bdo if you want to copy Michael Gilbert.) Bye, -- Loïc Minier From bjourne@gmail.com Fri Jun 9 11:32:25 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E57533B0147 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:32:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02538-08 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:32:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.207]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E55FB3B02F7 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:32:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so654060wxd for ; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 08:32:21 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=McMsr9UbsQrkheYyfxiAcapOm/Xuc8Of7xlng/xz9cIKh1tbNMbqtyQLEGG11aQZzS4UMFABCCwUeMApOsqGEyjlKyNjv31WRTSfb8ug64jiJ6+CK1KrhYm1K4yxwDY7xqzGIerl00hQwi6n43htIWUBOSyNAcATL6NHQDUEG4A= Received: by 10.70.62.1 with SMTP id k1mr3581069wxa; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 08:32:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.115.6 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 08:32:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:32:19 +0200 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?BJ=F6rn_Lindqvist?=" To: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs In-Reply-To: <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.496 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.027, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001, TW_MV=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.496 X-Spam-Level: Cc: X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 15:32:25 -0000 > Gedit suffers the same problem than Bill's software: the > Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown key combination is eaten by GtkTextView, at Gtk > level (for going to the next/previous paragraph, iirc). The actual Wouldn't the right solution then be to fix GtkTextView so that it doesn't steal Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown? --=20 mvh Bj=F6rn From gnome-Usability@m.gmane.org Fri Jun 9 11:50:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 009143B032D for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:50:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03783-02 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:50:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE4163B024A for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:50:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1FojFO-00052n-5Z for Usability@gnome.org; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 17:50:06 +0200 Received: from h-68-165-4-198.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.4.198]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 17:50:06 +0200 Received: from wohler by h-68-165-4-198.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 17:50:06 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: Usability@gnome.org From: Bill Wohler Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 08:49:10 -0700 Organization: Newt Software Lines: 15 Message-ID: <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: h-68-165-4-198.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:rY1IfAkLd+KrTmPRanzn/dE9Bdc= Sender: news X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: [Usability] Re: Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 15:50:33 -0000 "BJörn Lindqvist" writes: >> Gedit suffers the same problem than Bill's software: the >> Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown key combination is eaten by GtkTextView, at Gtk >> level (for going to the next/previous paragraph, iirc). The actual > > Wouldn't the right solution then be to fix GtkTextView so that it > doesn't steal Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown? And GtkTreeView and possibly others. That's what I was thinking. Doable? -- Bill Wohler http://www.newt.com/wohler/ GnuPG ID:610BD9AD Maintainer of comp.mail.mh FAQ and MH-E. If you're passed on the right, you're in the wrong lane. From Calum.Benson@Sun.COM Fri Jun 9 11:59:21 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D20323B02F7 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:59:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04251-01 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:59:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD6AD3B024A for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:59:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-01.sun.com ([192.18.2.111]) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k59FxGjj008284 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:59:18 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-01.sun.com by d1-emea-01.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0L00D01NQKYK00@d1-emea-01.sun.com> (original mail from Calum.Benson@Sun.COM) for Usability@gnome.org; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:59:16 +0100 (BST) Received: from vpn-129-150-116-25.UK.Sun.COM ([129.150.116.25]) by d1-emea-01.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0L008BXOER2330@d1-emea-01.sun.com>; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:59:16 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:59:14 +0100 From: Calum Benson Subject: Re: [Usability] Re: Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs In-reply-to: <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> Sender: Calum.Benson@Sun.COM To: Bill Wohler Message-id: <1149868755.7852.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Organization: Sun Microsystems Ireland Ltd. MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.582 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.582 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 15:59:22 -0000 On Fri, 2006-06-09 at 08:49 -0700, Bill Wohler wrote: > "BJörn Lindqvist" writes: > > >> Gedit suffers the same problem than Bill's software: the > >> Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown key combination is eaten by GtkTextView, at Gtk > >> level (for going to the next/previous paragraph, iirc). The actual > > > > Wouldn't the right solution then be to fix GtkTextView so that it > > doesn't steal Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown? > > And GtkTreeView and possibly others. That's what I was thinking. Doable? More than likely, but only if you can suggest alternative keybindings for those existing TextView/TreeView functions that are sufficiently consistent/discoverable. Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:calum.benson@sun.com Java Desktop System Group http://ie.sun.com +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems From gnome-Usability@m.gmane.org Fri Jun 9 12:19:37 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ECF33B1112 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 12:19:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05786-06 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 12:19:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FC813B1120 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 12:19:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1FojhH-0003Ev-L0 for Usability@gnome.org; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 18:18:55 +0200 Received: from h-68-165-4-198.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.4.198]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 18:18:55 +0200 Received: from wohler by h-68-165-4-198.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 18:18:55 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: Usability@gnome.org From: Bill Wohler Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 09:18:45 -0700 Organization: Newt Software Lines: 27 Message-ID: <87slme715m.fsf@olgas.newt.com> References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <1149868755.7852.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: h-68-165-4-198.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:BstvWzstfMaA5FgcQdtcEdthMak= Sender: news X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.597 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.004, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.597 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: [Usability] Re: Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:19:37 -0000 Calum Benson writes: > On Fri, 2006-06-09 at 08:49 -0700, Bill Wohler wrote: >> "BJörn Lindqvist" writes: >> >> >> Gedit suffers the same problem than Bill's software: the >> >> Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown key combination is eaten by GtkTextView, at Gtk >> >> level (for going to the next/previous paragraph, iirc). The actual >> > >> > Wouldn't the right solution then be to fix GtkTextView so that it >> > doesn't steal Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown? >> >> And GtkTreeView and possibly others. That's what I was thinking. Doable? > > More than likely, but only if you can suggest alternative keybindings > for those existing TextView/TreeView functions that are sufficiently > consistent/discoverable. Well, I tried C-PageUp/Down in the GtkTreeView widget (in GnuCash), and I have no idea what it's doing. It's sort of like PageUp/Down, but it doesn't move the screen the same amount. Suffice to say, I would not mourn its loss. -- Bill Wohler http://www.newt.com/wohler/ GnuPG ID:610BD9AD Maintainer of comp.mail.mh FAQ and MH-E. If you're passed on the right, you're in the wrong lane. From mpt@myrealbox.com Fri Jun 9 16:56:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC7DA3B01AB for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:56:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20116-10 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:56:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from leucothea.redline.site5.com (leucothea.redline.site5.com [216.118.97.161]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11A453B0122 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:56:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ool-44c0bc13.dyn.optonline.net ([68.192.188.19] helo=[192.168.0.5]) by leucothea.redline.site5.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.52) id 1Foo1c-00028w-53; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:56:12 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> References: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Matthew Paul Thomas Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:38:35 -0400 To: Gnome usability X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.623) X-Antivirus-Scanner: This message has been scanned by ClamAV. X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - leucothea.redline.site5.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnome.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - myrealbox.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Cc: michael.s.gilbert@gmail.com X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 20:56:18 -0000 On Jun 8, 2006, at 3:47 PM, Lo=EFc Minier wrote: > ... > """ > at work the other day a couple windows-locked coworkers of mine were > attempting to use a fedora system. they were attempting to figure out > if a particular application was available on the system. they had no > idea where to go to do a file search (they expected it to be in the > start menu, but gave up after they found it wasn't under = applications). Hardly surprising: a file search definitely isn't a "place". It's not=20 an application either, but at least "Applications" looks vaguely like a=20= Start menu. > so then they tried nautilus, but couldn't figure out where to go. =20 > they dropped down to / where they were even more dumbfounded. a=20 > comment was "what are all these directories and how am i supposed to=20= > find anything in this mess." That problem will continue until Fedora begins using human-readable=20 directory names (like GoboLinux, Mac OS, and Windows all do to varying=20= extents). > ... > i suggested that they try the search under the gnome places menu, at > which point they were able to find some similarity to their > expectations. at first they used the defaults and only searched in > their home directory (inadvertently assuming that the file must not be > on the disk even though their search path was too limited), Again, they were right and the OS was wrong. The default should be to=20 search everything you can access, just like in Web search engines,=20 because (a) you are likely to be searching for programs, which usually=20= aren't in your home folder, and (b) searching everything will usually=20 be quicker (as you suggested later) than choosing a correct scope then=20= searching within that. > at which point i said you should search from the / directory. they=20 > opened the gnome file selector, and could not figure out how to pick /=20= > (in fact they didn't understand the concept of /, or how it relates to=20= > something like c:). i also didn't know how to select / directly from=20= > the gnome file selector this, but eventually figured out if you select=20= > the topmost directory breakout at the top of the file selector that=20= > you will get / as your selection. this is very non-obvious and needs=20= > to be fixed. Fortunately the dialog doesn't use the inscrutable "/" terminology, but=20= "File System" isn't much better, and the icon for it seems to be a=20 harmonica. Unfortunately there isn't really any good name for=20 "collection of obscurely-named things that has your files hidden in it=20= somewhere, and your programs in it spread across several other places,=20= but which can't be called your hard disk because it has your other=20 drives hidden inside it too". > so they tried their search, which completed *way* too fast for their > expectations (likely because they are used to windows searches taking > significant time to search an entire disk because file lists are not > cached as scrollkeeper does). > ... This is a bug in that while the Find tool tells you "No files found",=20 it does not mention what it was searching for, so there is no way to=20 distinguish between a search that has finished with no results and one=20= that hasn't started yet. Thanks for your interesting report. --=20 Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/= From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Sun Jun 11 11:05:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C6083B0088 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 11:05:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15678-04 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 11:05:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AB3C83B0084 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 11:05:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 11 Jun 2006 16:04:32 +0100 (BST) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 16:04:32 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lo=EFc?= Minier Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" In-Reply-To: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> Message-ID: References: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 15:05:20 -0000 On Thu, 8 Jun 2006, [iso-8859-1] Lo=EFc Minier wrote: > Michael Gilbert (michael.s.gilbert -at- gmail.com) explained his > experience when introducing GNOME to people otherwise running Windows in > Debian bug http://bugs.debian.org/371882: > """ > at work the other day a couple windows-locked coworkers of mine were > attempting to use a fedora system. they were attempting to figure out > if a particular application was available on the system. I do think things would be easier for windows users (in fact easier than windows) if Gnome were using a single main menu on the bottom left corner which is what Novell are doing. Strangely enough it was Novell/Ximian who proposed the two panel layout in the first place even though they have since abandoned it (this was discussed quite recently but I dont expect the two panel layout to go away anytime soon). The run dialog can be useful in this case. If you know the application name and type it in then if it is installed the icon will appear in the dialog and when you hit okay the application will run. If you do not know the application name (why not?) the run dialog (or some versions of it at least) have an expander which opens to show a flat list of available applications. I cannot say about Debian but while using Ubuntu I did notice I sometimes applications do not appear in menus right after you install them but a logout and log back in usually sorts that out. I'm trying to think why you might need to search for these applications in the first place rather than choose from what is available in the menus. A package manager like Synaptic might be a good way to check what programs are installed, it also includes a search tool. > idea where to go to do a file search (they expected it to be in the > start menu, but gave up after they found it wasn't under applications). A file search is intended for documents and other user files If you are looking for programs you are not expected to use the file search. > so then they tried nautilus, but couldn't figure out where to go. they > dropped down to / where they were even more dumbfounded. a comment was > "what are all these directories and how am i supposed to find anything > in this mess." Not much change from Microsoft then. ;P > i suggested looking in /usr/local and /opt but both came up empty. If you have given up on the Desktop and had to resort to the command line then a good way to find things is using the "locate" utitlity. When hunting for programs the command "apropos" can be very useful too (especially on BSD where the man pages are better). > i suggested that they try the search under the gnome places menu, at > which point they were able to find some similarity to their > expectations. at first they used the defaults and only searched in > their home directory (inadvertently assuming that the file must not be > on the disk even though their search path was too limited), at which > point i said you should search from the / directory. they opened the > gnome file selector, and could not figure out how to pick / (in fact > they didn't understand the concept of /, or how it relates to something > like c:). i also didn't know how to select / directly from the gnome > file selector this, but eventually figured out if you select the topmost > directory breakout at the top of the file selector that you will get / > as your selection. this is very non-obvious and needs to be fixed. so > they tried their search, which completed *way* too fast for their > expectations (likely because they are used to windows searches taking > significant time to search an entire disk because file lists are not > cached as scrollkeeper does). so i did a "find / | grep fname" which > also came up empty to indicate to them that indeed the file they were > looking for was not on the system. > > at one point another comment was "it seems like they do things > differently just to be different," referring to the gnome desktop in > general vs windows. *cough* *cough* splutter! Understatement. Things have gotten better and are getting better all the time, file bugs where you see them. At least horrible anachronisms like the "Druid dialogs" are on the way out (that really was a case of being different from Wizards just for the sake of being different). Sincerely Alan Horkan Inkscape http://inkscape.org Abiword http://www.abisource.com Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/ From Calum.Benson@Sun.COM Tue Jun 13 12:08:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B31DC3B000A for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:08:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29211-06 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:08:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0934E3B000C for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:08:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-10.sun.com (d1-emea-10.sun.com [192.18.2.120] (may be forged)) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5DG73iU003213 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:07:03 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-10.sun.com by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0T00B013ET6M00@d1-emea-10.sun.com> (original mail from Calum.Benson@Sun.COM) for Usability@gnome.org; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:07:03 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([129.150.116.239]) by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0T00H9Z3FRHT70@d1-emea-10.sun.com>; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:07:03 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:06:57 +0100 From: Calum Benson Subject: Re: [Usability] Re: Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs In-reply-to: <17538.1149869665@olgas.newt.com> Sender: Calum.Benson@Sun.COM To: Bill Wohler Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <1149868755.7852.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <17538.1149869665@olgas.newt.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.582 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.582 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 16:08:13 -0000 On 9 Jun 2006, at 17:14, Bill Wohler wrote: > > Well, I tried C-PageUp/Down in the GtkTreeView widget (in GnuCash), > and > I have no idea what it's doing. In a tree view, Ctrl+PgUp/PgDn should be moving focus to the item at the top or bottom of the current view; in other controls, it's the shortcut for scrolling left/right: http://www.gnome.org/learn/access-guide/latest/keynav-23.html#keynav-35 If it's doing something else, it's either a bug, or it's been over- ridden by a developer who thinks they know better :) Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:calum.benson@sun.com Java Desktop System Team http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems From Calum.Benson@Sun.COM Wed Jun 14 13:26:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F32D3B0156 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 13:26:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26510-02 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 13:26:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60F1D3B0135 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 13:26:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-02.sun.com (d1-emea-02.sun.com [192.18.2.112] (may be forged)) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5EHPMb5010739 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 18:25:22 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-02.sun.com by d1-emea-02.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0V00K011HFZ600@d1-emea-02.sun.com> (original mail from Calum.Benson@Sun.COM) for Usability@gnome.org; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 18:25:22 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([129.150.116.135]) by d1-emea-02.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0V00FZN1Q9TE10@d1-emea-02.sun.com>; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 18:25:22 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 18:25:16 +0100 From: Calum Benson In-reply-to: <3515.1150215756@olgas.newt.com> Sender: Calum.Benson@Sun.COM To: Bill Wohler Message-id: <645F3922-742E-4B5E-8D69-37D56C69E503@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <1149868755.7852.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <17538.1149869665@olgas.newt.com> <3515.1150215756@olgas.newt.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.583 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.015, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.583 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 17:26:46 -0000 On 13 Jun 2006, at 17:22, Bill Wohler wrote: > Calum Benson wrote: > >> On 9 Jun 2006, at 17:14, Bill Wohler wrote: >>> >>> Well, I tried C-PageUp/Down in the GtkTreeView widget (in GnuCash), >>> and I have no idea what it's doing. >> >> In a tree view, Ctrl+PgUp/PgDn should be moving focus to the item at >> the top or bottom of the current view; in other controls, it's the >> shortcut for scrolling left/right: >> >> http://www.gnome.org/learn/access-guide/latest/ >> keynav-23.html#keynav-35 >> >> If it's doing something else, it's either a bug, or it's been over- >> ridden by a developer who thinks they know better :) > > Thanks, Calum. Well, that's not what I'm seeing. A GnuCash developer > told me that he wouldn't overwrite the GtkTreeView bindings to allow > C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs so it's unlikely that it has been > overridden. A puzzler indeed. I'll mention this to the developers. > > I still think that the HIG should specify C-PageUp/Down for moving > between tabs and that other widgets should not use this binding. I'd agree that this has been a bugbear long enough that we should probably try a bit harder to fix it properly. The controls that use Ctrl+PgUp/PgDn just to move focus could possibly just do without (by default, at least); you can always hit Ctrl+up/down a few times instead. The ones that use them for scrolling left/right might be trickier, but I'll need to try and put together a complete list before I try and figure something out. Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:calum.benson@sun.com Java Desktop System Team http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems From michael.s.gilbert@gmail.com Fri Jun 16 22:20:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D0D43B033A for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2006 22:20:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32034-02 for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2006 22:20:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.196]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC9A03B02DB for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2006 22:20:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id h29so524273wxd for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2006 19:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.52.10 with SMTP id z10mr4997505wxz; Fri, 16 Jun 2006 19:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.65.5 with HTTP; Fri, 16 Jun 2006 19:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <8e2a98be0606161919x9a20c7dld5fc3a4715960f2b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 22:19:21 -0400 From: "Michael Gilbert" To: horkana@maths.tcd.ie In-Reply-To: <8e2a98be0606161901j5c6edfdcj3acd734a2ee19751@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> <8e2a98be0606111426w7d6407fdj68c34573295b317@mail.gmail.com> <8e2a98be0606161901j5c6edfdcj3acd734a2ee19751@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 09:59:24 -0400 Cc: usability@gnome.org, 371882@bugs.debian.org Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 02:20:40 -0000 Alan Horkan wrote: >The run dialog can be useful in this case. If you know the application >name and type it in then if it is installed the icon will appear in the >dialog and when you hit okay the application will run. If you do not know >the application name (why not?) the run dialog (or some versions of it at >least) have an expander which opens to show a flat list of available >applications. The users were having trouble finding a "find files" application in the applications menu. The did not even attempt to find the program they were looking for in the applications menu. >A package manager like Synaptic might be a good way to check what programs >are installed, it also includes a search tool. Synaptic is a confusing mess. If I were a new user, I would totally avoid it. I still avoid it...but only because I apt-get is so much easier and direct. > A file search is intended for documents and other user files > If you are looking for programs you are not expected to use the file > search. I don't think we should be in the game of telling the user how she is to use her computer. We should be making it as intuitive and broadly useful for the user to user her computer. If she expects to search for executables or system files (due to her poor os upbringing) then it should be perfectly reasonable and obvious for her to do so. we should not be forcing anyone to learn the unix way (find and locate). well maybe it would be useful for the find dialog to say something like, this is what i'm doing 'find / 2>/dev/null | grep fname' click here to learn more about how to use the power of the unix shell to enhance your computing expertise. thanks you for your thoughts. mike From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Sun Jun 18 13:08:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A9E93B0BF5 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 13:08:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04550-02 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 13:08:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 128B53B00B2 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 13:08:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 18 Jun 2006 18:07:14 +0100 (BST) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 18:07:14 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <8e2a98be0606161919x9a20c7dld5fc3a4715960f2b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: References: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> <8e2a98be0606111426w7d6407fdj68c34573295b317@mail.gmail.com> <8e2a98be0606161901j5c6edfdcj3acd734a2ee19751@mail.gmail.com> <8e2a98be0606161919x9a20c7dld5fc3a4715960f2b@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 17:08:12 -0000 [Removed CC's.] On Fri, 16 Jun 2006, Michael Gilbert wrote: > Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 22:19:21 -0400 > From: Michael Gilbert > To: horkana@maths.tcd.ie > Cc: 371882@bugs.debian.org, usability@gnome.org > Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes > with gnome virgins" > > Alan Horkan wrote: > >The run dialog can be useful in this case. If you know the application > >name and type it in then if it is installed the icon will appear in the > >dialog and when you hit okay the application will run. If you do not know > >the application name (why not?) the run dialog (or some versions of it at > >least) have an expander which opens to show a flat list of available > >applications. > > The users were having trouble finding a "find files" application in > the applications menu. The did not even attempt to find the program > they were looking for in the applications menu. Accomodating users is one thing but it is difficult to help users who are unwilling to even look through the Applications menu. Having said that Novell have their own redesigned setup (which may already be available) which does in fact include a search widget directly in the main menu. Mockups can be seen here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/gamehack/sets/1506658/ > >A package manager like Synaptic might be a good way to check what programs > >are installed, it also includes a search tool. > > Synaptic is a confusing mess. I see you added Debian to the CC list, since Synaptic is a Debian only program not Gnome I will let them comment. > avoid it. I still avoid it...but only because I apt-get is so much > easier and direct. Ubuntu inlcude a simpler frontend to Synaptic which makes things easier for basic adding and removing of programs, you might want to try it. > > A file search is intended for documents and other user files > > > If you are looking for programs you are not expected to use the file > > search. > > I don't think we should be in the game of telling the user how she is > to use her computer. I dont disagree. I was describing how thing are and how best to work around them rather than the ideal situation. The _intention_ of the designers was that find tool would be for finding documents rather than programs. > We should be making it as intuitive and broadly useful for the user to > user her computer. If she expects to search for executables or system > files (due to her poor os upbringing) then it should be perfectly > reasonable and obvious for her to do so. we should not be forcing > anyone to learn the unix way (find and locate). Since you had already given up on the graphical user interface I was explaining how to get more out of the command line, I would not have mentioned it otherwise and I believe if a user feels like they "need" to user the command line the real issue is the Desktop needs to be improved. > well maybe it would be useful for the find dialog to say something like, > this is what i'm doing 'find / 2>/dev/null | grep fname' click here to It is good to try and find ways to reduce the learning curve of the command line but I'm not sure this idea would really work well as part of the graphical user interface. I do think it would be great to have a page in the documentation of the Find tool explaining or introducing the command line alternatives. > learn more about how to use the power of the unix shell to enhance your > computing expertise. > > thanks you for your thoughts. Sincerely Alan Horkan Inkscape http://inkscape.org Abiword http://www.abisource.com Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/ From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Mon Jun 19 02:45:53 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C6963B0D43 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 02:45:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28820-04 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 02:45:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.203]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3E4573B0DC0 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 02:45:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 55516 invoked by uid 60001); 19 Jun 2006 06:45:00 -0000 Message-ID: <20060619064500.55514.qmail@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.215.111.236] by web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 07:45:00 BST Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 07:45:00 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Alan Horkan In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.667 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.715, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.667 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 06:45:53 -0000 --- Alan Horkan wrote: > It is good to try and find ways to reduce the > learning curve of the > command line but I'm not sure this idea would really > work well as part of > the graphical user interface. I do think it would > be great to have a page > in the documentation of the Find tool explaining or > introducing the > command line alternatives. I think the find tool docs briefly mention which unix commands are used behind the GUI. However, is the find tool made redundant by the new Nautilus searching? And if not, how are the two meant to work together? ___________________________________________________________ Try the all-new Yahoo! Mail. "The New Version is radically easier to use" – The Wall Street Journal http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Mon Jun 19 18:53:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC2903B02BD for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 18:53:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05746-09 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 18:53:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 653113B0105 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 18:53:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 19 Jun 2006 23:51:42 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 23:51:41 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20060619064500.55514.qmail@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: References: <20060619064500.55514.qmail@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:53:07 -0000 On Mon, 19 Jun 2006, Joachim Noreiko wrote: > > be great to have a page > > in the documentation of the Find tool explaining or > > introducing the > > command line alternatives. > > I think the find tool docs briefly mention which unix > commands are used behind the GUI. good to know > However, is the find tool made redundant by the new > Nautilus searching? And if not, how are the two meant > to work together? I doubt it. I'd expect the find tool to include more advanced options and for the built in tool to keep it simple. There might also be issues with the underlying technologies (Beagle?). I don't know for sure. -- Alan H. From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Tue Jun 20 03:34:38 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81B703B027D for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 03:34:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32616-04 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 03:34:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.202]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AA7EC3B0279 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 03:34:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 32953 invoked by uid 60001); 20 Jun 2006 07:33:12 -0000 Message-ID: <20060620073312.32951.qmail@web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.203.12.149] by web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:33:12 BST Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:33:12 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Alan Horkan In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.471 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.519, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.471 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: [Usability] Two types of find (Was: search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins") X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 07:34:38 -0000 --- Alan Horkan wrote: > > > However, is the find tool made redundant by the > new > > Nautilus searching? And if not, how are the two > meant > > to work together? > > I doubt it. I'd expect the find tool to include > more advanced options and > for the built in tool to keep it simple. There > might also be issues > with the underlying technologies (Beagle?). I don't > know for sure. Sure, I can see that operationally there are reasons to have both tool. But with our user hats on for a second -- why are there two find tools, accessed in different ways, with different-looking interfaces? It's confusing, and doesn't give off the joined-up feel that GNOME should have. So -- how can we join them up? ___________________________________________________________ The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html From mystilleef@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:03:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1667E3B058E for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:03:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10655-07 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:03:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.173]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D3AD3B0584 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:03:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id o2so3184611uge for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:03:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.67.103.7 with SMTP id f7mr3463065ugm; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:03:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.15 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:03:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:03:43 -0400 From: Mystilleef To: Usability@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.647 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.605, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.558, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.647 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:03:48 -0000 Hello, My application is a GUI designed especially for GNOME. Thus, when my application is launched, I register it with the GNOME libraries and then instruct the kernel to create a separate process for the application. The procedure is called forking. The effect of this is that when my application is launched from a shell terminal, the kernel detaches it from the shell terminal's process, therefore making the application run in its own process. Apparently, this has offended some geeks who argue I am breaking some pointless UNIX convention. Their argument is that most (GNOME) applications do not detach from the shell terminal when run from it. And by detaching from the terminal, not only am I creating inconsistencies, but also creating an element of surprise. My response is that this behavior is a hold back from the days when UNIX had no GUI and when almost all applications that ran on it were console applications. The only environment a console application can run in is in a shell environment. That is why console applications have every right to "hug" the shell terminal. Also blocking the shell terminal is the only way console applications can recieve input from users. Graphic user applications, especially the ones designed for "desktop environments" have virtually no reason to be bound to a shell terminal's process. In particular, the only environment a GNOME application should be bound to is the GNOME desktop environment. And I believe you do that by registering with the GNOME and/or freedesktop libraries. In fact, I argue it is bad practice for GUI applications to be bound to a shell terminals process because if the terminal's process dies for any reason the application(s) bound to that terminal dies along with it. In my early linux years, I have lost documents this way. I launched several via the shell terminal, and then I forgetfully or accidentally close the shell terminal's window. Miraculously, all my applications disappear. Also, most graphic user applications are not console applications and as such the life-cycle of such applications should not be determined or controlled or constrained by shell terminal's process running in the sight of users that can easily be killed accidentally or otherwise. The geeks' counter responses ranged from questioning my competence as a shell terminal user, to suggestions to reconfigure my shell properties, to changing my shell environment, to connecting my application to the kernel's KILL signal so it can save its state before dying, among several funny comments. In fact, there's only one reason to provide an option for not detaching. Some console applications may need to pipe their result to my application. And my application needs to be connected to the shell's process for that to be happen successfully. There are many other silly UNIX conventions that are a hold back from yesteryears which bite us in the behind today. I recommend the "UNIX Haters Handbook" for an exhaustive listing. Yet many people religiously clinge to them without reason. I feel this issue is one them. Is it advisable to encourage developers via the HIG to avoid hugging the terminal. I mean, apart from the fact that it is just pointless especially for GUI apps, there's also the possibility of losing applications bound to the terminal's process when the terminal quits for whatever reasons. And why on earth would anyone want to bind a GUI app to the process of another user visible application? I bring this up here because the geeks say I am trying to "fix" the problem the wrong way. They insist that the problem, if at all it is one should be "fixed" at a global level outside my application. I'm guessing perhaps at a library level. So, I welcome your comments and thought on the issue. My opinion is that the default behavior for GUI applications, GNOME in particular, is to detach from the shell terminal, while an option to prevent detachment should be provided for those who need it. A positive side effect of my suggestion is that it frees the terminal to be used by other applications designed for terminal usage. Cheers From mike@mike-burns.com Tue Jun 20 16:18:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C7FF3B0073 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:18:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11690-09 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:18:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mike-burns.com (mike-burns.com [64.105.111.66]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D9DC3B03DC for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:18:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mike by mike-burns.com with local (Exim 4.61 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1FsmgE-000I4J-6W; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:18:34 -0400 Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:18:34 -0400 From: Mike Burns To: Mystilleef Message-ID: <20060620201834.GA68180@gaping.mike-burns.com> Mail-Followup-To: Mystilleef , Usability@gnome.org References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:18:47 -0000 On 2006-06-20 16.03.43 -0400, Mystilleef wrote: > Graphic user applications, especially the ones designed for "desktop > environments" have virtually no reason to be bound to a shell terminal's > process. How many users who run the program in question run it from the terminal instead of the applications menu, panel, Alt+F2, or a hotkey? How many who run it from the terminal aren't shell experts who know about stuff like '&'? -- Mike Burns mike@mike-burns.com http://mike-burns.com From mystilleef@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:32:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E672F3B00B7 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:32:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12123-10 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:32:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.203]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59AB63B0155 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:32:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id t12so532169wxc for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.126.15 with SMTP id y15mr11029362wxc; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:32:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.15 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:32:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9605403b0606201332r169394a3mdad3a6a12da9115f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:32:14 -0400 From: Mystilleef To: Mystilleef , Usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20060620201834.GA68180@gaping.mike-burns.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <20060620201834.GA68180@gaping.mike-burns.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.256 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.344, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.256 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:32:18 -0000 I can't really say how many users run it from the terminal or from the menu. But it seems a few do run it from the terminal. Of course, on UNIX -like systems it is not uncommon to run applications from the terminal. And depending on your shell environment "&" does not detach applications from the shell's process. Apparently, for BASH, there is "disown" command for that. But I don't believe proficiency in BASH or shell wizardry should be a requirement for using applications designed for GNOME. On 6/20/06, Mike Burns wrote: > On 2006-06-20 16.03.43 -0400, Mystilleef wrote: > > Graphic user applications, especially the ones designed for "desktop > > environments" have virtually no reason to be bound to a shell terminal's > > process. > > How many users who run the program in question run it from the terminal > instead of the applications menu, panel, Alt+F2, or a hotkey? How many who > run it from the terminal aren't shell experts who know about stuff like '&'? > > -- > Mike Burns mike@mike-burns.com http://mike-burns.com > From alleykat@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:34:14 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A4B23B00B7 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:34:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12708-01 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:34:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.206]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A35193B009C for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:34:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 9so2684307nzo for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.12.45 with SMTP id p45mr9469143nzi; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.252.20 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:34:11 -0500 From: "Travis Watkins" To: Mystilleef In-Reply-To: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.379 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.221, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.379 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:34:14 -0000 On 6/20/06, Mystilleef wrote: > Graphic user applications, especially the ones designed for "desktop > environments" have virtually no reason to be bound to a shell terminal's > process. How are we supposed to get the debug output from those GNOME libraries you use? -- Travis Watkins http://www.realistanew.com From mystilleef@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:41:17 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BA943B0280 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:41:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13017-03 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:41:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.201]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEA573B01AF for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:41:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id h29so1020572wxd for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.52.10 with SMTP id z10mr11092861wxz; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:41:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.15 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:41:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9605403b0606201341w12b56135o2b6da3fd50709fa9@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:41:10 -0400 From: Mystilleef To: Usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <9605403b0606201339k12f232dfl57e73b92b2ee2cf5@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <9605403b0606201339k12f232dfl57e73b92b2ee2cf5@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.331 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.269, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.331 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Usability] Fwd: GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:41:17 -0000 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Mystilleef Date: Jun 20, 2006 4:39 PM Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment To: Travis Watkins On 6/20/06, Travis Watkins wrote: > On 6/20/06, Mystilleef wrote: > > Graphic user applications, especially the ones designed for "desktop > > environments" have virtually no reason to be bound to a shell terminal's > > process. > > How are we supposed to get the debug output from those GNOME libraries you use? > > -- > Travis Watkins > http://www.realistanew.com > You can print to stderr, which will display the debug output in the terminal the application was launched in, or you can print to a log file. Or maybe I didn't understand the question well enough? From mystilleef@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:45:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 130903B041C for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:45:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13208-05 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:45:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.198]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFC9C3B041A for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:45:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id t12so100wxc for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.24.3 with SMTP id 3mr11074250wxx; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.15 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9605403b0606201344s4adf74d5l893e43b608b993ba@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:44:52 -0400 From: Mystilleef To: "Travis Watkins" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <9605403b0606201339k12f232dfl57e73b92b2ee2cf5@mail.gmail.com> <9605403b0606201341w12b56135o2b6da3fd50709fa9@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.384 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.216, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.384 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Fwd: GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:45:20 -0000 On 6/20/06, Travis Watkins wrote: > On 6/20/06, Mystilleef wrote: > > You can print to stderr, which will display the debug output in the > > terminal the application was launched in, or you can print to a log > > file. Or maybe I didn't understand the question well enough? > > If you've separated from the terminal does outputting to stderr still > send output to said terminal? > > -- > Travis Watkins > http://www.realistanew.com > Yes, it does. From alleykat@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:50:05 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 374563B053D for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:50:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13567-03 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.195]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59FD03B04FC for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 16so1448nzp for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:50:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.91.2 with SMTP id o2mr3791224nzb; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:43:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.252.20 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:43:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:43:55 -0500 From: "Travis Watkins" To: Mystilleef In-Reply-To: <9605403b0606201341w12b56135o2b6da3fd50709fa9@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <9605403b0606201339k12f232dfl57e73b92b2ee2cf5@mail.gmail.com> <9605403b0606201341w12b56135o2b6da3fd50709fa9@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.384 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.216, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.384 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Fwd: GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:50:05 -0000 On 6/20/06, Mystilleef wrote: > You can print to stderr, which will display the debug output in the > terminal the application was launched in, or you can print to a log > file. Or maybe I didn't understand the question well enough? If you've separated from the terminal does outputting to stderr still send output to said terminal? -- Travis Watkins http://www.realistanew.com From ross@burtonini.com Wed Jun 21 04:29:05 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A27E93B0821 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:29:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21500-06 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:28:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65EB43B002A for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:28:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from burtonini.com (althur.gotadsl.co.uk [84.12.135.175]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBDB028C6D7; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:28:40 +0100 (BST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (ident=unknown) by burtonini.com with esmtp (masqmail 0.2.21) id 1Fsy4m-51o-00; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:28:40 +0100 From: Ross Burton To: Mystilleef In-Reply-To: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-hHw0K+ovPQXh+ENRGLBc" Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:28:40 +0100 Message-Id: <1150878520.12957.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.457 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.457 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:29:05 -0000 --=-hHw0K+ovPQXh+ENRGLBc Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 2006-06-20 at 16:03 -0400, Mystilleef wrote: > My application is a GUI designed especially for GNOME. Thus, when my > application is launched, I register it with the GNOME libraries and then > instruct the kernel to create a separate process for the application. > The procedure is called forking. The effect of this is that when my > application is launched from a shell terminal, the kernel detaches it > from the shell terminal's process, therefore making the application run > in its own process. There are plenty of situations where this behaviour is exactly not what I want, and not forking doesn't hurt anyone. The panel, run dialog and so on spawn processes so they are not bound to anything (you can demonstrate this by running a program from the panel and then killing the panel). Primary use case for not forking is that it makes it trivial to write a script that launches a program, user does something in it, and then the script can continue when the program has exited. If Gedit forked when it started I wouldn't be able to use it as $EDITOR in cvs commit for example. Why break this use case because you think that forking is useful, when to the average user there is no difference and to the terminal-using folks not forking is very useful at times. Yes, if you start a number of not-forking processes from a terminal and then close the terminal without disowning them they will also die. Luckily the users who will start a program from a terminal are advanced enough to know that happens[1]. Ross [1] In other news this week was the first time I got a bug report from a Sound Juicer user who when I asked "run SJ in a terminal and paste the output" asked "what's a terminal?". Yay non-geek users! --=20 Ross Burton mail: ross@burtonini.com jabber: ross@burtonini.com www: http://www.burtonini.com./ PGP Fingerprint: 1A21 F5B0 D8D0 CFE3 81D4 E25A 2D09 E447 D0B4 33DF --=-hHw0K+ovPQXh+ENRGLBc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEmQM3LQnkR9C0M98RAjA/AJ48sqixMzGp90lHwkoSZEEzzHYr0wCfaOyk 8c218P3Pjd0fJjEh3Od2p0s= =F/45 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-hHw0K+ovPQXh+ENRGLBc-- From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Wed Jun 21 04:49:23 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67FE13B07CA for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:49:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22910-06 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:49:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.203]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4F3AD3B04EA for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:49:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 38857 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Jun 2006 08:49:21 -0000 Message-ID: <20060621084921.38855.qmail@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.141.171.15] by web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:49:21 BST Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:49:21 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Ross Burton , Mystilleef In-Reply-To: <1150878520.12957.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.538 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.586, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.538 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:49:23 -0000 --- Ross Burton wrote: > Primary use case for not forking is that it makes it > trivial to write a > script that launches a program, user does something > in it, and then the > script can continue when the program has exited. If > Gedit forked when > it started I wouldn't be able to use it as $EDITOR > in cvs commit for > example. That's interesting! Would you care to add a brief note on how to do that to the wiki, perhaps on http://live.gnome.org/Sysadmin/CVS/FAQ ? > > [1] In other news this week was the first time I got > a bug report from a > Sound Juicer user who when I asked "run SJ in a > terminal and paste the > output" asked "what's a terminal?". Yay non-geek > users! Yay indeed! (Original poster wrote:) > There are many other silly UNIX conventions that are a hold back from yesteryears which bite us in the behind today. Absolutely. I keep finding some of these, filing bugs in my ignorance, and then getting told it's meant to be the way it is. We need to look at these legacy issues, because there are simply a pain to non-geek users, and non-geek contributors too. ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From nudrema@gmail.com Wed Jun 21 04:49:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 233453B04EF for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:49:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22840-07 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:49:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp40.mobistarmail.be (smtp40.mobistarmail.be [193.252.23.61]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 123723B0AF9 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:49:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.103] (unknown [212.224.134.45]) by mwinf4016.mobistarmail.be (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id AA8337000085 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 10:49:25 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060621084925698.AA8337000085@mwinf4016.mobistarmail.be Message-ID: <44990812.3040603@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 10:49:22 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Steve_Fr=E9cinaux?= User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <1150878520.12957.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <1150878520.12957.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.973 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.443, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_NEUTRAL=1.069] X-Spam-Score: -1.973 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:49:41 -0000 Ross Burton wrote: > Primary use case for not forking is that it makes it trivial to write a > script that launches a program, user does something in it, and then the > script can continue when the program has exited. If Gedit forked when > it started I wouldn't be able to use it as $EDITOR in cvs commit for > example. Well, in fact you can't now, because of a bug due to the single instance stuff (ie it's not blocking when you already have an instance of gedit). This might be solved by adding a --wait option or such for these case, but it's not done yet. From sberry@cyberspace.org Mon Jun 19 22:04:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C66503B01F6 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:04:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16941-07 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:04:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from grex.cyberspace.org (grex.cyberspace.org [216.86.77.194]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC98B3B0D79 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:04:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sberry by grex.cyberspace.org with local (Exim 4.54) id 1FsVan-0006sA-5J for usability@gnome.org; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:03:49 -0400 Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:03:49 -0400 From: David To: usability@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2i Sender: David X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.537 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.062, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.537 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 11:02:14 -0400 Subject: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 02:04:48 -0000 Dear All, I am not sure if you have seen this article (apparently it appeared on SlashDot). http://chabada.sk/better-desktop/ The reason I am mentioning it on the usability list is that he has many ideas for the utilisation of pop-up dialogues that appear not to be too intrusive. The idea of mail new message preview is a large usability gap, due to the time it takes users to switch back and forth between the app they are using and Evolution to determine if a message is improtant or not and the interruption to workflow this entails. Progress notifications, information about multimedia codecs and automatic music pause would all lead to a more intuitive systemi. The comments about displaying more relevant data in Nautilus are also worth taking on board. All in all, these are some of the best practical suggestions I have seen for a long time. I hope they provide deveopers and usability experts with food for thought. Thanks, Sarah From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Wed Jun 21 12:17:06 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB7C43B0FCB for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:17:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20270-09 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:17:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.206]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1A1503B0FE5 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:17:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 64620 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Jun 2006 16:17:02 -0000 Message-ID: <20060621161702.64618.qmail@web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.215.5.26] by web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:17:02 BST Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:17:02 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: David , usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.669 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.717, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.669 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:17:06 -0000 --- David wrote: > Dear All, > > I am not sure if you have seen this article > (apparently it appeared on SlashDot). > http://chabada.sk/better-desktop/ > > The reason I am mentioning it on the usability list > is that he has many ideas for the utilisation of > pop-up dialogues that appear not to be too > intrusive. The idea of mail new message preview is > a large usability gap, due to the time it takes > users to switch back and forth between the app they > are using and Evolution to determine if a message is > improtant or not and the interruption to workflow > this entails. Have you seen Growl for OS X? There is also a page on our wiki about redesigning the notification area. > > The comments about displaying more relevant data in > Nautilus are also worth taking on board. I do not underestand why Nautilus ties up two totally different concepts in its zoom function: icon size and amount of information displayed. If anything, the reverse would make more sense: icons smaller when there is more text in the label. I filed a bug about this but I don't think I explained it properly, as it has been ignored/ ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Wed Jun 21 12:49:44 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 617AA3B00AE for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:49:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22459-04 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:49:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C9A833B10DE for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:48:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 21 Jun 2006 17:47:39 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:47:39 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan To: sberry@grex.cyberspace.org In-Reply-To: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> Message-ID: References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:49:45 -0000 On Mon, 19 Jun 2006, David wrote: > Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:03:49 -0400 > From: David > To: usability@gnome.org > Subject: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions > > Dear All, > > I am not sure if you have seen this article (apparently it appeared on > SlashDot). http://chabada.sk/better-desktop/ I've seen it but I'm not sure it was discussed here on this list. I probably read about it on OSNews http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=14152 A lot of the suggestions could be dealt with directly by filing bug reports and feature requests and I think a few may have been filed already by the author. > Progress notifications, information about multimedia codecs and We really want to encourage people to use free and open formats and avoid vendor lock in problem which in the long run is a far worse problem. It might even be good idea to offer to transcode files to better formats before offering to install codecs for encumbered proprietary formats. Part of this "problem" is up to distributions and what they choose to include. Gnome doesn't include proprietary codecs and this stance is unlikely to change but some distributions do add them back in and give users what they think they want. Another part of it is education, to try and make sure users understand we cannot play formats such as MP3 out of the box due to legal hazards. Much as we might like to ignore the issue and give users what they want we cannot afford to as it will not go away and will only get worse. Fluendo and gstreamer do seem to be working at making it easier to install 3rd party codecs but we cannot achieve the ideal ease of use and without undermining other goals. > automatic music pause would all lead to a more intuitive systemi. the notion of pausing music has been discussed before, I dont recall if there was any conclusion or ideas on how best to go about implementing it. > The comments about displaying more relevant data in Nautilus are also > worth taking on board. I think the author may have posted those directly to the nautilus list. Sincerely Alan Horkan Inkscape http://inkscape.org Abiword http://www.abisource.com Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/ From thejello@gmail.com Wed Jun 21 14:37:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9858F3B014E for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:37:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29199-05 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:37:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.183]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 705803B0084 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:37:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id x66so48839pye for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 11:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.134.12 with SMTP id l12mr136441pyn; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 11:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.124.18 with HTTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 11:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4d9c6c340606211137p39290216x864bd61275aec52@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:37:08 -0400 From: "Simon Francis" To: "Alan Horkan" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_5466_4641605.1150915028419" References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.129 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.470, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.129 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org, sberry@grex.cyberspace.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 18:37:12 -0000 ------=_Part_5466_4641605.1150915028419 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Why does Gnome open non-free document formats that have related patents (Word, Excel, etc) but not multimedia files? I would consider it essential for a modern desktop to open either and a major barrier to adoption. On 6/21/06, Alan Horkan wrote: > > > On Mon, 19 Jun 2006, David wrote: > > > Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:03:49 -0400 > > From: David > > To: usability@gnome.org > > Subject: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions > > > > Dear All, > > > > I am not sure if you have seen this article (apparently it appeared on > > SlashDot). http://chabada.sk/better-desktop/ > > I've seen it but I'm not sure it was discussed here on this list. > > I probably read about it on OSNews > http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=14152 > > A lot of the suggestions could be dealt with directly by filing bug > reports and feature requests and I think a few may have been filed already > by the author. > > > Progress notifications, information about multimedia codecs and > > We really want to encourage people to use free and open formats and avoid > vendor lock in problem which in the long run is a far worse problem. It > might even be good idea to offer to transcode files to better formats > before offering to install codecs for encumbered proprietary formats. > > Part of this "problem" is up to distributions and what they choose to > include. Gnome doesn't include proprietary codecs and this stance is > unlikely to change but some distributions do add them back in and give > users what they think they want. > > Another part of it is education, to try and make sure users understand we > cannot play formats such as MP3 out of the box due to legal hazards. > Much as we might like to ignore the issue and give users what they want we > cannot afford to as it will not go away and will only get worse. > > Fluendo and gstreamer do seem to be working at making it easier to install > 3rd party codecs but we cannot achieve the ideal ease of use and without > undermining other goals. > > > automatic music pause would all lead to a more intuitive systemi. > > the notion of pausing music has been discussed before, I dont recall if > there was any conclusion or ideas on how best to go about implementing it. > > > The comments about displaying more relevant data in Nautilus are also > > worth taking on board. > > I think the author may have posted those directly to the nautilus list. > > Sincerely > > Alan Horkan > > Inkscape http://inkscape.org > Abiword http://www.abisource.com > Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org > > Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Usability mailing list > Usability@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability > ------=_Part_5466_4641605.1150915028419 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Why does Gnome open non-free document formats that have related patents (Word, Excel, etc) but not multimedia files? I would consider it essential for a modern desktop to open either and a major barrier to adoption.

On 6/21/06, Alan Horkan <horkana@maths.tcd.ie> wrote:

On Mon, 19 Jun 2006, David wrote:

> Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:03:49 -0400
> From: David <sberry@grex.cyberspace.org>
> To: usability@gnome.org
> Subject: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions
>
> Dear All,
>
> I am not sure if you have seen this article (apparently it appeared on
> SlashDot). http://chabada.sk/better-desktop/

I've seen it but I'm not sure it was discussed here on this list.

I probably read about it on OSNews
http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=14152

A lot of the suggestions could be dealt with directly by filing bug
reports and feature requests and I think a few may have been filed already
by the author.

> Progress notifications, information about multimedia codecs and

We really want to encourage people to use free and open formats and avoid
vendor lock in problem which in the long run is a far worse problem.  It
might even be good idea to offer to transcode files to better formats
before offering to install codecs for encumbered proprietary formats.

Part of this "problem" is up to distributions and what they choose to
include.  Gnome doesn't include proprietary codecs and this stance is
unlikely to change but some distributions do add them back in and give
users what they think they want.

Another part of it is education, to try and make sure users understand we
cannot play formats such as MP3 out of the box due to legal hazards.
Much as we might like to ignore the issue and give users what they want we
cannot afford to as it will not go away and will only get worse.

Fluendo and gstreamer do seem to be working at making it easier to install
3rd party codecs but we cannot achieve the ideal ease of use and without
undermining other goals.

> automatic music pause would all lead to a more intuitive systemi.

the notion of pausing music has been discussed before, I dont recall if
there was any conclusion or ideas on how best to go about implementing it.

> The comments about displaying more relevant data in Nautilus are also
> worth taking on board.

I think the author may have posted those directly to the nautilus list.

Sincerely

Alan Horkan

Inkscape http://inkscape.org
Abiword http://www.abisource.com
Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org

Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/



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Usability@gnome.org
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------=_Part_5466_4641605.1150915028419-- From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Wed Jun 21 16:21:38 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 456063B05BB for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:21:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03268-09 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:21:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BE8643B05C0 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:21:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 21 Jun 2006 21:21:33 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 21:21:33 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <4d9c6c340606211137p39290216x864bd61275aec52@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> <4d9c6c340606211137p39290216x864bd61275aec52@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 20:21:38 -0000 On Wed, 21 Jun 2006, Simon Francis wrote: > Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:37:08 -0400 > From: Simon Francis > To: Alan Horkan > Cc: sberry@grex.cyberspace.org, usability@gnome.org > Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions > > Why does Gnome open non-free document formats that have related patents > (Word, Excel, etc) but not multimedia files? Techincally (and I apologise for the pedantry) Abiword and Gnumeric or Openoffice are the ones opening those formats not "GNOME" (although they are part or the wider Gnome community). More importantly the older office document formats have quite the same patent threats looming over them as the newer video formats do and they could be clean room reverse engineered but patents on video formats remain a threat even if the decoders are completely new code. > I would consider it essential for a modern desktop to open either and a > major barrier to adoption. The develolpers are not going to lock themselves out of their own desktop by using proprietary formats. If distributions choose to include additional codecs that is up to them. Other operating systems do not support certain formats out of the box. This is not directly a Gnome issue, and it is more a packaging and installation issue than a usability or mulitmedia issue. I am sure Gstreamer will continue to try and make it easier to install third part codecs but it is a nasty problem since the root of it is the politics of software patents. I understand your points and I do sort of agree with you (most likely I will choose a distribution which includes the codecs, or maybe install them myself but try to use unencumbered formats where possible) and I am only trying to present the problem as best I understand it. -- Alan From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Wed Jun 21 17:26:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B9A03B0153 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:26:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07094-01 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:26:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.206]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4366F3B0005 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:26:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 98624 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Jun 2006 21:26:49 -0000 Message-ID: <20060621212649.98622.qmail@web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.188.165.84] by web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 22:26:49 BST Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 22:26:49 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Alan Horkan , sberry@grex.cyberspace.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.653 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.701, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.653 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 21:26:51 -0000 --- Alan Horkan wrote: > Another part of it is education, to try and make > sure users understand we > cannot play formats such as MP3 out of the box due > to legal hazards. > Much as we might like to ignore the issue and give > users what they want we > cannot afford to as it will not go away and will > only get worse. Then let's educate the users! Try to open an MP3 file in Nautilus, and you get a 'application could not be found' message, which is unhelpful and untrue. Replace that with something that says why the MP3 can't be played. ___________________________________________________________ The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html From ross@burtonini.com Thu Jun 22 06:19:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9248D3B0389 for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 06:19:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15587-05 for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 06:19:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 651A03B042A for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 06:19:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from burtonini.com (althur.gotadsl.co.uk [84.12.135.175]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D3F029BC37; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 11:14:54 +0100 (BST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (ident=unknown) by burtonini.com with esmtp (masqmail 0.2.21) id 1Ft3Ca-331-00; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:57:04 +0100 From: Ross Burton To: Steve =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9cinaux?= In-Reply-To: <44990812.3040603@gmail.com> References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <1150878520.12957.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <44990812.3040603@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-GS5gCILk9mi/7eC2n045" Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:57:04 +0100 Message-Id: <1150898224.7820.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.833 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.616, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_12_24=1.247, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -1.833 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 10:19:18 -0000 --=-GS5gCILk9mi/7eC2n045 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 2006-06-21 at 10:49 +0200, Steve Fr=C3=A9cinaux wrote: > Ross Burton wrote: >=20 > > Primary use case for not forking is that it makes it trivial to write a > > script that launches a program, user does something in it, and then the > > script can continue when the program has exited. If Gedit forked when > > it started I wouldn't be able to use it as $EDITOR in cvs commit for > > example. >=20 > Well, in fact you can't now, because of a bug due to the single instance > stuff (ie it's not blocking when you already have an instance of gedit). >=20 > This might be solved by adding a --wait option or such for these case, > but it's not done yet. Never let reality get in the way of a good example, that's what I say. Yes, the single-instance stuff needs a --wait or something. In fact I'll add this to the single-instance SoC project wiki page. Ross --=20 Ross Burton mail: ross@burtonini.com jabber: ross@burtonini.com www: http://www.burtonini.com./ PGP Fingerprint: 1A21 F5B0 D8D0 CFE3 81D4 E25A 2D09 E447 D0B4 33DF --=-GS5gCILk9mi/7eC2n045 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEmVAwLQnkR9C0M98RAjj/AJkBwL8X5gXuowk+mivKV7xgBtxiYQCggIe4 2AiH4/XMuAfyJXaHvh10+DM= =rEto -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-GS5gCILk9mi/7eC2n045-- From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Fri Jun 23 03:30:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97FAB3B018A for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 03:30:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22794-06 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 03:30:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32406.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32406.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.199]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AD4CA3B00ED for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 03:30:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 90963 invoked by uid 60001); 23 Jun 2006 07:30:56 -0000 Message-ID: <20060623073056.90961.qmail@web32406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.214.29.119] by web32406.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 08:30:56 BST Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 08:30:56 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Michael Knepher , Gnome usability In-Reply-To: <19425c310606221428w62bc6e6ey19dd5c892a7e4176@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.56 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.608, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.56 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 07:30:57 -0000 --- Michael Knepher wrote: > On 6/21/06, Joachim Noreiko > wrote: > > > > --- Alan Horkan wrote: > > > > > Another part of it is education, to try and make > > > sure users understand we > > > cannot play formats such as MP3 out of the box > due > > > to legal hazards. > > > > Then let's educate the users! > > > > Try to open an MP3 file in Nautilus, and you get a > > 'application could not be found' message, which is > > unhelpful and untrue. > > Replace that with something that says why the MP3 > > can't be played. > > Isn't that the generic message that appears when > trying to open *any* > file type that doesn't have an application > registered to that > mime-type? Why should nautilus have a hard-coded > exception for any > file-type? Having a support page with information or > links to further > information about various filetypes and what > applications can > open/play/edit/hang out with them would seem to be a > better idea. > Today it may be mp3, but tomorrow it's likely to be > some other format, > and even today mp3 is far from the only > unsupported-out-of-the-box > file format for most distributions. Opening a support page when the user tries to open an MP3 file would be fine too. Basically, something needs to happen beyond the default message so the user doesn't simply think "This linux is rubbish -- it doesn't even know what an MP3 file is!" And yes, we could widen the idea, so anytime the user tries to open a file for which there's currently no application, she can go to find out more about what to do next. Eg, try to open an SVG file, and the helpfile you're pointed to will suggest Inkscape. ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From kbridger@shaw.ca Sat Jun 24 15:16:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B07543B00A5 for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 15:16:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31701-10 for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 15:16:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pd2mo2so.prod.shaw.ca (shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net [24.71.223.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2AF63B01B1 for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 15:16:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pd2mr7so.prod.shaw.ca (pd2mr7so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.10]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1D00MELPIRZW10@l-daemon> for usability@gnome.org; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 13:16:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml9so.prod.shaw.ca ([10.0.121.7]) by pd2mr7so.prod.shaw.ca (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1D00L5ZPIRYC00@pd2mr7so.prod.shaw.ca> for usability@gnome.org; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 13:16:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from spontaneity.thebside.ca ([70.70.211.21]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1D00HLCPIQVQG0@l-daemon> for usability@gnome.org; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 13:16:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.0.10] (westley [192.168.0.10]) by spontaneity.thebside.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0D6A1014; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 12:16:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 12:16:01 -0700 From: Kirk Bridger In-reply-to: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> To: David Message-id: <449D8F71.1060304@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.366 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.809, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST=1.708, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.366 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 19:16:56 -0000 His site seems down, but looking through Google's cache I have a comment: Renaming file extensions causes file type change: I don't like the way Windows uses file extensions to determine filetype. I think it is much more useful to have the system figure out what filetype it is. Windows ended up providing users with a means of hiding file extensions and we all know how that turned out. I love being able to send a .exe file through my exchange server's filter simply by renaming it .txt. Changing types though could be useful - I use nautilus's script to resize images for example. Being able to do that in the properties or by right-clicking is an interesting idea. I suppose the same could be done for filetypes as well, to a limited extent. I'm not sure if there is a frequently used use case there or not though. Kirk David wrote: > Dear All, > > I am not sure if you have seen this article (apparently it appeared on SlashDot). > http://chabada.sk/better-desktop/ > > The reason I am mentioning it on the usability list is that he has many ideas for the utilisation of pop-up dialogues that appear not to be too intrusive. The idea of mail new message preview is a large usability gap, due to the time it takes users to switch back and forth between the app they are using and Evolution to determine if a message is improtant or not and the interruption to workflow this entails. > > Progress notifications, information about multimedia codecs and automatic music pause would all lead to a more intuitive systemi. > > The comments about displaying more relevant data in Nautilus are also worth taking on board. > > All in all, these are some of the best practical suggestions I have seen for a long time. I hope they provide deveopers and usability experts with food for thought. > > Thanks, > > Sarah > _______________________________________________ > Usability mailing list > Usability@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability > From mpt@myrealbox.com Sun Jun 25 01:21:37 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40CD73B02A2 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 01:21:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17670-06 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 01:21:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from leucothea.redline.site5.com (leucothea.redline.site5.com [216.118.97.161]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E57D3B0079 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 01:21:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 203-173-178-53.bliink.ihug.co.nz ([203.173.178.53] helo=[10.1.1.5]) by leucothea.redline.site5.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.52) id 1FuN3O-0005nO-Se; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 01:21:03 -0400 In-Reply-To: <449D8F71.1060304@shaw.ca> References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> <449D8F71.1060304@shaw.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <6b768541cf85cb7ade2a7217c3faffd4@myrealbox.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Matthew Paul Thomas Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:21:12 +1200 To: Gnome usability X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.623) X-Antivirus-Scanner: This message has been scanned by ClamAV. X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - leucothea.redline.site5.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnome.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - myrealbox.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.499 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.499 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 05:21:37 -0000 On Jun 25, 2006, at 7:16 AM, Kirk Bridger wrote: > ... > I don't like the way Windows uses file extensions to determine > filetype. I think it is much more useful to have the system figure > out what filetype it is. Windows ended up providing users with a > means of hiding file extensions and we all know how that turned out. > I love being able to send a .exe file through my exchange server's > filter simply by renaming it .txt. > ... The converse of that is the friend of mine who renamed something.bmp to something.gif and wondered why it didn't get converted. (And that was without even being exposed to the Gimp, which has a Save dialog encouraging such confusion.) -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Sun Jun 25 05:29:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FA973B0079 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 05:29:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07670-03 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 05:29:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B8F243B013D for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 05:29:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 25 Jun 2006 10:28:36 +0100 (BST) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:28:36 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: Gnome usability In-Reply-To: <6b768541cf85cb7ade2a7217c3faffd4@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> <449D8F71.1060304@shaw.ca> <6b768541cf85cb7ade2a7217c3faffd4@myrealbox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 09:29:34 -0000 On Sun, 25 Jun 2006, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:21:12 +1200 > From: Matthew Paul Thomas > To: Gnome usability > Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions > > On Jun 25, 2006, at 7:16 AM, Kirk Bridger wrote: > > ... > > I don't like the way Windows uses file extensions to determine > > filetype. It is a fairly fast way of doing things. > > I think it is much more useful to have the system figure > > out what filetype it is. There certainly used to be an option to use full file type detection in Nautilus, which was much more necessary several years ago as some developers intentionally did not use any file extensions but most do nowadays. Even if we had a system where we did not need to use file extensions I would generally add them back in for my own use, they are especially useful for simple pattern matching on the command line. For example: ls -lgh *.png > > Windows ended up providing users with a > > means of hiding file extensions and we all know how that turned out. > > I love being able to send a .exe file through my exchange server's > > filter simply by renaming it .txt. I've seen people embed huge video files inside Word Documents just to bypass stupid filters. It is a system only useful for preventing users from accidentally shooting themselves in the foot but that wont stop those determined to wreck their computer. > The converse of that is the friend of mine who renamed something.bmp to > something.gif and wondered why it didn't get converted. A very familiar situation. It didn't help that some web authoring tools such as Microsoft Frontpage failed to discourage users from including massive uncompressed bitmaps on their web pages. It would sure be an improvement to offer to convert the file instead of issuing pointless - inevitably ignored - warnings the way Microsoft does. -- Alan From reinouts@gnome.org Sun Jun 25 10:38:30 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C5643B00CA for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:38:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17732-05 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:38:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp13.wxs.nl (smtp13.wxs.nl [195.121.247.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F2FB3B00FE for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:38:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from reinout.rotterdam-cs.com (ip5656924e.speed.planet.nl [86.86.146.78]) by smtp13.wxs.nl (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004)) with SMTP id <0J1F00KSS7B3U5@smtp13.wxs.nl> for usability@gnome.org; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 16:37:52 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 16:40:29 +0200 From: Reinout van Schouwen To: usability@gnome.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Pan/0.14.2 (This is not a psychotic episode. It's a cleansing moment of clarity.) References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> <449D8F71.1060304@shaw.ca> <6b768541cf85cb7ade2a7217c3faffd4@myrealbox.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.014, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 14:38:30 -0000 On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:21:12 +1200, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > The converse of that is the friend of mine who renamed something.bmp to > something.gif and wondered why it didn't get converted. Automagically converting the file after the user renames it to another graphics type would be a very sensible thing to do, wouldn't it? regards, -- Reinout van Schouwen From reinouts@gnome.org Sun Jun 25 10:41:44 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93DA03B00BB for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:41:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17855-06 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:41:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp16.wxs.nl (smtp16.wxs.nl [195.121.247.7]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 232073B00CA for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:41:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from reinout.rotterdam-cs.com (ip5656924e.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl [86.86.146.78]) by smtp16.wxs.nl (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004)) with SMTP id <0J1F005KV7GTCX@smtp16.wxs.nl> for usability@gnome.org; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 16:41:18 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 16:43:55 +0200 From: Reinout van Schouwen To: usability@gnome.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Pan/0.14.2 (This is not a psychotic episode. It's a cleansing moment of clarity.) References: <20060621212649.98622.qmail@web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.014, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 14:41:44 -0000 On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 22:26:49 +0100, Joachim Noreiko wrote: > Try to open an MP3 file in Nautilus, and you get a 'application could not > be found' message, which is unhelpful and untrue. > Replace that with something that says why the MP3 can't be played. You are assuming that people read such messages. In reality, unfortunately, they don't. regards, -- Reinout van Schouwen From mpt@myrealbox.com Sun Jun 25 18:51:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BF323B0201 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 18:51:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06774-08 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 18:51:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from leucothea.redline.site5.com (leucothea.redline.site5.com [216.118.97.161]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 390DA3B019D for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 18:51:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 203-173-178-53.bliink.ihug.co.nz ([203.173.178.53] helo=[10.1.1.5]) by leucothea.redline.site5.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.52) id 1FudS6-0007xY-9V; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 18:51:38 -0400 In-Reply-To: References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> <449D8F71.1060304@shaw.ca> <6b768541cf85cb7ade2a7217c3faffd4@myrealbox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Matthew Paul Thomas Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:51:39 +1200 To: Gnome usability X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.623) X-Antivirus-Scanner: This message has been scanned by ClamAV. X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - leucothea.redline.site5.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnome.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - myrealbox.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.514 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.085, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.514 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 22:51:46 -0000 On Jun 26, 2006, at 2:40 AM, Reinout van Schouwen wrote: > > On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:21:12 +1200, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: >> >> The converse of that is the friend of mine who renamed something.bmp >> to something.gif and wondered why it didn't get converted. > > Automagically converting the file after the user renames it to another > graphics type would be a very sensible thing to do, wouldn't it? > ... I don't think so, because then you would still have the "renaming a file in a particular way causes a confirmation alert" problem, except this time the alert would be asking about a (usually) lossy file conversion instead of merely a rename. -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Mon Jun 26 03:49:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67B333B0124 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 03:49:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31093-05 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 03:49:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.204]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A389A3B00B6 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 03:49:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 67033 invoked by uid 60001); 26 Jun 2006 07:49:48 -0000 Message-ID: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.188.218.167] by web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:49:48 BST Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:49:48 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Reinout van Schouwen , usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.654 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.702, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.654 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 07:49:52 -0000 --- Reinout van Schouwen wrote: > On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 22:26:49 +0100, Joachim Noreiko > wrote: > > > Try to open an MP3 file in Nautilus, and you get a > 'application could not > > be found' message, which is unhelpful and untrue. > > Replace that with something that says why the MP3 > can't be played. > > You are assuming that people read such messages. In > reality, > unfortunately, they don't. Yes, they often don't. But have to assume they do and plan our UI around that assumption. Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and probably no user documentation either. ___________________________________________________________ Now you can scan emails quickly with a reading pane. Get the new Yahoo! Mail. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html From burner@suppressingfire.org Mon Jun 26 10:22:09 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B811B3B043B for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:22:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24164-06 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:22:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ms-smtp-01.nyroc.rr.com (ms-smtp-01.nyroc.rr.com [24.24.2.55]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66D493B0124 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:22:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from suppressingfire (cpe-24-24-95-18.stny.res.rr.com [24.24.95.18]) by ms-smtp-01.nyroc.rr.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k5QELvpk004094 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:22:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [66.24.9.211] (helo=phoenix.local) by suppressingfire with asmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1Fury6-0003dz-00; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:21:38 -0400 From: "Michael R. Head" To: usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-jyWJEDPHSqqZY9+dmCjI" Organization: suppressingfire.org Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:21:33 -0400 Message-Id: <1151331695.7135.143.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Scanner: exiscan *1Fury6-0003dz-00*MS6m9wiATYI* X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.653 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_NJABL_DUL=1.946] X-Spam-Score: -0.653 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:22:09 -0000 --=-jyWJEDPHSqqZY9+dmCjI Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:49 +0100, Joachim Noreiko wrote: >=20 > Yes, they often don't. > But have to assume they do and plan our UI around that > assumption. > Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and probably > no user documentation either. It's not that we shouldn't have those, it's that the user shouldn't _need_ them. --=20 Michael R. Head suppressingfire.org --=-jyWJEDPHSqqZY9+dmCjI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEn+1tNXGzGEydodARAqBvAKCCBm4gdnuwL1qXO4DzJtBTQB0tNACeMCMV 98CqtU5zsymY1oSZ3hjToYY= =1qKT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-jyWJEDPHSqqZY9+dmCjI-- From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Mon Jun 26 12:36:43 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2CFA3B009A for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:36:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00507-06 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:36:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.202]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DDC053B03BA for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:36:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 49772 invoked by uid 60001); 26 Jun 2006 16:36:42 -0000 Message-ID: <20060626163642.49770.qmail@web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.214.125.57] by web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:36:42 BST Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:36:42 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: "Michael R. Head" , usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <1151331695.7135.143.camel@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.565 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.613, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.565 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:36:44 -0000 --- "Michael R. Head" wrote: > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:49 +0100, Joachim Noreiko > wrote: > > > > Yes, they often don't. > > But have to assume they do and plan our UI around > that > > assumption. > > Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and > probably > > no user documentation either. > > It's not that we shouldn't have those, it's that the > user shouldn't > _need_ them. I agree with that in general. But when the user tries to open a file for which there's no application, there has to be some sort of response from the system. ___________________________________________________________ All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html From glatzor@ubuntu.com Mon Jun 26 14:31:16 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 333A13B0265 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:31:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07114-05 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:31:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail-out.m-online.net (mail-out.m-online.net [212.18.0.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8BEB3B017D for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:31:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail01.m-online.net (svr21.m-online.net [192.168.3.149]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2BCA73290 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:31:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pimpzkru.dyndns.org (ppp-82-135-65-46.dynamic.mnet-online.de [82.135.65.46]) by mail.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 949F092781 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:31:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pimpzkru.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DA2AD2E05 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:47:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pimpzkru.dyndns.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (server.daheim [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20467-07 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:47:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from sebi-mac.daheim (sebi-mac.daheim [10.169.18.2]) by pimpzkru.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3721ED2E02 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:47:05 +0200 (CEST) From: Sebastian Heinlein To: usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20060626163642.49770.qmail@web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060626163642.49770.qmail@web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:30:33 +0200 Message-Id: <1151346634.4959.6.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at pimpzkru X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.464 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.464 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:31:16 -0000 Am Montag, den 26.06.2006, 17:36 +0100 schrieb Joachim Noreiko: > --- "Michael R. Head" > wrote: > > > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:49 +0100, Joachim Noreiko > > wrote: > > > > > > Yes, they often don't. > > > But have to assume they do and plan our UI around > > that > > > assumption. > > > Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and > > probably > > > no user documentation either. > > > > It's not that we shouldn't have those, it's that the > > user shouldn't > > _need_ them. > > I agree with that in general. > But when the user tries to open a file for which > there's no application, there has to be some sort of > response from the system May I point you to the following spec that has been discussed on the Ubuntu Depeveloper Summit in Paris recently: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SuggestedPackagesForFiletypesSpec Regards, Sebastian From mpt@myrealbox.com Mon Jun 26 23:42:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82C2B3B0286 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:42:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01194-10 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:42:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from leucothea.redline.site5.com (leucothea.redline.site5.com [216.118.97.161]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 832863B00CF for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:42:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 203-173-178-53.bliink.ihug.co.nz ([203.173.178.53] helo=[10.1.1.5]) by leucothea.redline.site5.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.52) id 1Fv4TO-00043b-Bp; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:42:46 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Matthew Paul Thomas Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:42:56 +1200 To: Gnome usability X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.623) X-Antivirus-Scanner: This message has been scanned by ClamAV. X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - leucothea.redline.site5.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnome.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - myrealbox.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.524 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.075, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.524 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 03:42:51 -0000 On Jun 26, 2006, at 7:49 PM, Joachim Noreiko wrote: > ... > --- Reinout van Schouwen wrote: > ... >> You are assuming that people read such messages. In reality, >> unfortunately, they don't. > > Yes, they often don't. But have to assume they do and plan our UI > around that assumption. Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and > probably no user documentation either. > ... That's a long-term goal to work towards: alerts replaced by bug fixes and better design, and "user documentation" replaced by helpful help and better design. But that's not the issue here. The issue is, given that there is an error alert, which alert text is better: "Nautilus could not open the file because the filetype is unknown", or "&operatingsystem; cannot play MP3 files, because some countries allow software patents and Free Software cannot pay patent licenses". -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ From kbridger@shaw.ca Tue Jun 27 00:40:32 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 179EB3B0125 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:40:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03708-04 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:40:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pd2mo2so.prod.shaw.ca (shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net [24.71.223.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCA8E3B0143 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:40:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pd5mr1so.prod.shaw.ca (pd5mr1so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.232]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1I0071O4YNP570@l-daemon> for usability@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:39:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml1so.prod.shaw.ca ([10.0.121.145]) by pd5mr1so.prod.shaw.ca (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-2.05 (built Apr 28 2005)) with ESMTP id <0J1I001J94YN5Q50@pd5mr1so.prod.shaw.ca> for usability@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:39:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from spontaneity.thebside.ca ([70.70.211.21]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1I00ART4YN7T31@l-daemon> for usability@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:39:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.0.10] (westley [192.168.0.10]) by spontaneity.thebside.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C58A043724; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:39:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:39:58 -0700 From: Kirk Bridger In-reply-to: To: Matthew Paul Thomas Message-id: <44A0B69E.4050605@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> <449D8F71.1060304@shaw.ca> <6b768541cf85cb7ade2a7217c3faffd4@myrealbox.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.372 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.817, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST=1.708, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.372 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Gnome usability Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 04:40:32 -0000 I think it would be an interesting idea if it was lossless.  As soon as data can be lost in the translation I think it would be a mistake.

But as Matthew pointed out, it is a rename function.  Might it make more sense to have a right-click option to convert a file to another filetype, a la Nautilus scripts?  Certainly more complex but also more robust I think.

Why would a file's name determine it's format?  It seems artificial and fragile to me.  Alan's point about organizing via extension is a fallback to the shell, but is certainly true.  For the shell.  I think there are better ways to do it on the desktop - perhaps with Beagle and tagging images with their type or something like that?

However as long it is lossless there would be no danger and it most likely would be useful to some.  It actually might be kind of cool.


Kirk



Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: 
On Jun 26, 2006, at 2:40 AM, Reinout van Schouwen wrote:
  
On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:21:12 +1200, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
    
The converse of that is the friend of mine who renamed something.bmp 
to something.gif and wondered why it didn't get converted.
      
Automagically converting the file after the user renames it to another
graphics type would be a very sensible thing to do, wouldn't it?
...
    

I don't think so, because then you would still have the "renaming a 
file in a particular way causes a confirmation alert" problem, except 
this time the alert would be asking about a (usually) lossy file 
conversion instead of merely a rename.
From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Tue Jun 27 10:37:21 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34D453B0497 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 10:37:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03799-06 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 10:37:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3DC803B0234 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 10:37:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bell.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.9] helo=bell.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 27 Jun 2006 15:36:40 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:36:40 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: Gnome usability In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:37:21 -0000 On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: [...] > > Yes, they often don't. But have to assume they do and plan our UI > > around that assumption. Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and > > probably no user documentation either. > > ... > > That's a long-term goal to work towards: alerts replaced by bug fixes > and better design, and "user documentation" replaced by helpful help > and better design. > But that's not the issue here. The issue is, given that there is an > error alert, which alert text is better: I agree with your sentiment but ... > "Nautilus could not open the > file because the filetype is unknown", or > "&operatingsystem; cannot play MP3 files, because some countries allow > software patents and Free Software cannot pay patent licenses". ... there are so many things wrong with that second sentence I will not criticize it other than to say I hope you will retract it, or rephrase it. -- Alan H. From thejello@gmail.com Tue Jun 27 11:30:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2D3B3B00A0 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:30:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05701-08 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:30:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.181]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8869E3B00B4 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:30:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id b29so1887828pya for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:29:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.121.9 with SMTP id y9mr7319104pym; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:29:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.124.18 with HTTP; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:29:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4d9c6c340606270829v76184a30t1873601ca705e921@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:29:55 -0400 From: "Simon Francis" To: "Matthew Paul Thomas" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_11777_20547401.1151422195993" References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.928 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.097, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, HTML_30_40=0.374, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.928 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Gnome usability Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:30:27 -0000 ------=_Part_11777_20547401.1151422195993 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline But OpenOffice and AbiWord open my Word documents fine which have patents. It is as essential to a home user to have working multimedia playback as a business user having the ability to open documents. On 6/26/06, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > > On Jun 26, 2006, at 7:49 PM, Joachim Noreiko wrote: > > ... > > --- Reinout van Schouwen wrote: > > ... > >> You are assuming that people read such messages. In reality, > >> unfortunately, they don't. > > > > Yes, they often don't. But have to assume they do and plan our UI > > around that assumption. Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and > > probably no user documentation either. > > ... > > That's a long-term goal to work towards: alerts replaced by bug fixes > and better design, and "user documentation" replaced by helpful help > and better design. > > But that's not the issue here. The issue is, given that there is an > error alert, which alert text is better: "Nautilus could not open the > file because the filetype is unknown", or "&operatingsystem; cannot > play MP3 files, because some countries allow software patents and Free > Software cannot pay patent licenses". > > -- > Matthew Paul Thomas > http://mpt.net.nz/ > > _______________________________________________ > Usability mailing list > Usability@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability > ------=_Part_11777_20547401.1151422195993 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline But OpenOffice and AbiWord open my Word documents fine which have patents. It is as essential to a home user to have working multimedia playback as a business user having the ability to open documents.

On 6/26/06, Matthew Paul Thomas <mpt@myrealbox.com> wrote:
On Jun 26, 2006, at 7:49 PM, Joachim Noreiko wrote:
> ...
> --- Reinout van Schouwen <reinouts@gnome.org> wrote:
> ...
>> You are assuming that people read such messages. In reality,
>> unfortunately, they don't.
>
> Yes, they often don't. But have to assume they do and plan our UI
> around that assumption. Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and
> probably no user documentation either.
> ...

That's a long-term goal to work towards: alerts replaced by bug fixes
and better design, and "user documentation" replaced by helpful help
and better design.

But that's not the issue here. The issue is, given that there is an
error alert, which alert text is better: "Nautilus could not open the
file because the filetype is unknown", or "&operatingsystem; cannot
play MP3 files, because some countries allow software patents and Free
Software cannot pay patent licenses".

--
Matthew Paul Thomas
http://mpt.net.nz/

_______________________________________________
Usability mailing list
Usability@gnome.org
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability

------=_Part_11777_20547401.1151422195993-- From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Tue Jun 27 11:47:32 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC2E73B0110 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:47:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06333-09 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:47:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C26043B0172 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:47:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bell.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.9] helo=bell.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 27 Jun 2006 16:46:39 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:46:38 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: Gnome usability In-Reply-To: <4d9c6c340606270829v76184a30t1873601ca705e921@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4d9c6c340606270829v76184a30t1873601ca705e921@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:47:32 -0000 On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Simon Francis wrote: > Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:29:55 -0400 > From: Simon Francis > To: Matthew Paul Thomas > Cc: Gnome usability > Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions > > But OpenOffice and AbiWord open my Word documents fine which have patents. Do they? The newer XML formats might have some dodgy patents but I don't think the older Microsoft Word .doc had any patents and Rich Text Format was intended for sharing documents with other word processors (RTF is what Abiword actually uses). -- Alan From liam@holoweb.net Tue Jun 27 18:01:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FEF03B009D for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 18:01:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18927-05 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 18:01:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hd-t1637cl.privatedns.com (ip-209-172-34-239.reverse.privatedns.com [209.172.34.239]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6DEEF3B00B3 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 18:01:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 22820 invoked from network); 27 Jun 2006 22:01:16 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?127.0.0.1?) (127.0.0.1) by hd-t1637cl.privatedns.com with SMTP; 27 Jun 2006 22:01:16 -0000 From: Liam R E Quin To: Matthew Paul Thomas In-Reply-To: References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=-/ZZWHMx5iFlopzfnwJPX" Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:56:21 -0400 Message-Id: <1151445381.25012.65.camel@dell.barefootcomputing.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.2-1mdv2007.0 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.498 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.034, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_50_60=0.134, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.498 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Gnome usability Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 22:01:47 -0000 --=-/ZZWHMx5iFlopzfnwJPX Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 15:42 +1200, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: [...] > But that's not the issue here. The issue is, given that there is an > error alert, which alert text is better: "Nautilus could not open the > file because the filetype is unknown", or "&operatingsystem; cannot > play MP3 files, because some countries allow software patents and Free > Software cannot pay patent licenses". The latter isn't true. That is, (1) the operating system is actually likely to be technically capable of supporting MP3 players, and (2) it's trying to play a piece of music (one imagines) and not in fact trying to play a patent :-) More importantly, the right message in practice might be The distributor of this operating environment did not obtain permission to ship support for MPEG sound decoding (e.g. mp3) from the holder(s) of patents on the required techniques. If you know that the legal issues do not affect you, you can install support for MP3 files [here]. Contact your local politician to register a protest against the way that ideas can belong to corporations [here]. People are more likely to read messages if, from time to time, they contain useful information. Explain the problem, and help people to understand the issues, and then help them to do something about it. best, Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org --=-/ZZWHMx5iFlopzfnwJPX Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 15:42 +1200, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
[...] 
But that's not the issue here. The issue is, given that there is an 
error alert, which alert text is better: "Nautilus could not open the 
file because the filetype is unknown", or "&operatingsystem; cannot 
play MP3 files, because some countries allow software patents and Free 
Software cannot pay patent licenses".

The latter isn't true.  That is,
(1) the operating system is actually likely to be technically capable
    of supporting MP3 players, and
(2) it's trying to play a piece of music (one imagines) and not in
    fact trying to play a patent :-)

More importantly, the right message in practice might be

    The distributor of this operating environment did not obtain
    permission to ship support for MPEG sound decoding (e.g. mp3)
    from the holder(s) of patents on the required techniques.

    If you know that the legal issues do not affect you, you can
    install support for MP3 files [here].

    Contact your local politician to register a protest against
    the way that ideas can belong to corporations [here].

People are more likely to read messages if, from time to time,
they contain useful information.  Explain the problem, and
help people to understand the issues, and then help them to
do something about it.

best,

Liam

-- 
Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org
--=-/ZZWHMx5iFlopzfnwJPX-- From mpt@myrealbox.com Wed Jun 28 03:21:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B1753B000F for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 03:21:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30217-06 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 03:21:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from leucothea.redline.site5.com (leucothea.redline.site5.com [216.118.97.161]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B86653B0010 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 03:21:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 203-173-178-53.bliink.ihug.co.nz ([203.173.178.53] helo=[10.1.1.5]) by leucothea.redline.site5.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.52) id 1FvULi-0003jt-Gr; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 03:20:36 -0400 In-Reply-To: References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Matthew Paul Thomas Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 19:20:29 +1200 To: Gnome usability X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.624) X-Antivirus-Scanner: This message has been scanned by ClamAV. X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - leucothea.redline.site5.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnome.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - myrealbox.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.532 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.067, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.532 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 07:21:45 -0000 On Jun 28, 2006, at 2:36 AM, Alan Horkan wrote: > > On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > ... >> "Nautilus could not open the file because the filetype is unknown", >> or "&operatingsystem; cannot play MP3 files, because some countries >> allow software patents and Free Software cannot pay patent licenses". > > ... there are so many things wrong with that second sentence I will > not criticize it other than to say I hope you will retract it, or > rephrase it. > ... That (like most of your postings, alas) is critical but utterly unhelpful. How specifically would you improve the sentence? (I'm assuming that Gnome is considered to be Free Software by default, and if a distributor charges money for the inclusion of MP3-playing proprietary software in their OS, they can patch the message to suit the rare case where you've uninstalled that software.) -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ From fraggle@gmail.com Wed Jun 28 05:57:15 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4766C3B0002 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 05:57:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02935-01 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 05:57:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.236]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2F5F3B0079 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 05:57:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 55so716444wri for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 02:56:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.230.8 with SMTP id h8mr1022414qbr; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 02:56:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.64.181.11 with HTTP; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 02:56:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <301d395f0606280256r707ec315s178e5efe70da7fce@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 10:56:31 +0100 From: "Simon Howard" To: "Francesco Stablum" In-Reply-To: <377fd1f30605260335r3ef7c556s3f6724c44f8236f6@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <377fd1f30605260335r3ef7c556s3f6724c44f8236f6@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.494 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.094, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.494 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Copy & paste problem X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:57:15 -0000 On 5/26/06, Francesco Stablum wrote: > The problem is that there are two clipboard buffers and it can be very > annoying and conterintuitive to new unix/gnome users. Why not making a > single buffer? Most users new to Unix are unlikely to know about the PRIMARY selection pasting method (select + middle click). The problems are that you can select text to make a PRIMARY-style "copy" operation, but doing a "paste" using edit-paste will paste the CLIPBOARD selection instead, and similarly a middle-click will paste the PRIMARY selection, which doesn't work if you did edit-copy. The problem is, the only way to combine the two systems would involve copying to the clipboard whenever text is selected. This would make things even more confusing than they already are - imagine someone who selects some text in application 1, selects "edit-copy", then goes to application 2, selects some text (to replace) and hits "edit-paste". Nothing happens, because the clipboard was overwritten the second time he selected any text. I'd say that users are unlikely to stumble across the PRIMARY select paste method anyway. It doesn't interfere with the normal copy-and-paste method, which is what most Unix newbies are going to use. -- Simon Howard http://www.soulsphere.org/ From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Wed Jun 28 08:05:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ABF63B0204 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:05:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09357-07 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:05:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.198]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AB34D3B01B2 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:04:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 10999 invoked by uid 60001); 28 Jun 2006 12:04:12 -0000 Message-ID: <20060628120412.10997.qmail@web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.216.7.206] by web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:04:12 BST Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:04:12 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Simon Howard , Francesco Stablum In-Reply-To: <301d395f0606280256r707ec315s178e5efe70da7fce@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.692 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.740, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.692 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Copy & paste problem X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:05:49 -0000 --- Simon Howard wrote: > On 5/26/06, Francesco Stablum > wrote: > > The problem is that there are two clipboard > buffers and it can be very > > annoying and conterintuitive to new unix/gnome > users. Why not making a > > single buffer? > > Most users new to Unix are unlikely to know about > the PRIMARY > selection pasting method (select + middle click). > The problems are > that you can select text to make a PRIMARY-style > "copy" operation, but > doing a "paste" using edit-paste will paste the > CLIPBOARD selection > instead, and similarly a middle-click will paste the > PRIMARY > selection, which doesn't work if you did edit-copy. > > The problem is, the only way to combine the two > systems would involve > copying to the clipboard whenever text is selected. > This would make > things even more confusing than they already are - > imagine someone who > selects some text in application 1, selects > "edit-copy", then goes to > application 2, selects some text (to replace) and > hits "edit-paste". > Nothing happens, because the clipboard was > overwritten the second time > he selected any text. > > I'd say that users are unlikely to stumble across > the PRIMARY select > paste method anyway. It doesn't interfere with the > normal > copy-and-paste method, which is what most Unix > newbies are going to > use. This is true -- however, the existence of the PRIMARY system does have an impact on users, because across all GTK application windows, there can be only one selection. This breaks users' expectations of what an application is, because something they do in one window can affect the state of selection in another. There's a bug open for this, but most solutions suggested so far are looking at ways to highlight the selection considered for PRIMARY in some way, and nothing proposed so far is entirely satisfactory. Could there be a way to combine the two systems? What about using middle-click-&-drag to select text to copy, and middle-click to paste, using the regular clipboard? ___________________________________________________________ Does your mail provider give you FREE antivirus protection? Get Yahoo! Mail http://uk.mail.yahoo.com From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Wed Jun 28 08:56:50 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDEEF3B00BE for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:56:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11067-05 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:56:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8BD6D3B0083 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:56:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 28 Jun 2006 13:56:13 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:56:13 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan To: Matthew Paul Thomas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Gnome usability Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:56:50 -0000 On Wed, 28 Jun 2006, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 19:20:29 +1200 > From: Matthew Paul Thomas > To: Gnome usability > Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions > > On Jun 28, 2006, at 2:36 AM, Alan Horkan wrote: > > > > On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > That (like most of your postings, alas) is critical but utterly > unhelpful. How specifically would you improve the sentence? See the post Liam Quinn made, it described the issue well. > >> "Nautilus could not open the file because the filetype is unknown", > >> or "&operatingsystem; cannot play MP3 files, because some countries > >> allow software patents and Free Software cannot pay patent licenses". Using the phrase "some countries" in the error message begs the questions which countries? These kinds of ambiguities are best avoided in error messages, it is like answering a users question with another question they are unlikely to know the answer to so it can be very annoying. Software patents may be the root cause of the problem but distributions could choose to license the software from Fleundo so it is a overly complicated way to preset the issue to the user in what should be short and simple error message. > > ... there are so many things wrong with that second sentence I will > > not criticize it other than to say I hope you will retract it, or > > rephrase it. I was hoping you could see that although your sentiment was well intentioned you propesd actions and confusing choice of text were "utterly unhelpful" (sic) but it seems you couldn't even recognise your own mistake and instead of getting all defensive about it and resorting to personal attacks. Admittedly my posts may be rushed and far from perfect but but I try only to provide some timely response of some kind rather than leave questions unanswered. I do not make any claims of expertise and I do not cry foul when others point my mistakes - it may be annoying but I try to learn from them and improve what I'm doing - since I am here to try and help make the software better in whatever way I can manage. I do not have the luxury of being employed to work on Free Software development. > (I'm assuming that Gnome is considered to be Free Software by default, That is not a safe assumption. Many Gnome developers do believe in the ideas of the Free Software Foundation but there is no certain answer that would make your assumption a safe one, Alan Cox and Richard Stallman are not clear on whether it is or not: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/2006-June/msg00098.html For the ordinary users the relevant points are the distributor has chosen not to license the software, or is prevented from (or at least believes the even the threat of legal action is not worth risking) includinging a free version due to legal reason. The freedom issue is important but secondary and only make the error message longer and more confusing. > and if a distributor charges money for the inclusion of MP3-playing > proprietary software in their OS, they can patch the message to suit > the rare case where you've uninstalled that software.) So showing a dialog might be suitable but the message must as simple and direct as possible. -- Alan H. From d2004@cosmopod.com Tue Jun 27 19:42:15 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F1C73B0010 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:42:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21597-07 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:42:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 64.cosmopod.com (unknown [216.75.2.64]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E949F3B0005 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:42:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 64.cosmopod.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by 64.cosmopod.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k5RNfGcX017982 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:41:17 -0700 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by 64.cosmopod.com (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k5RNf9TV017912 for usability@gnome.org; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:41:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: 64.cosmopod.com: d2004 set sender to d2004@cosmopod.com using -f From: d2004@cosmopod.com To: usability@gnome.org Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:41:04 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200606271641.06914.d2004@cosmopod.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.038, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_REAL_NAME=0.961] X-Spam-Score: -1.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:59:56 -0400 Subject: [Usability] Consistency Issue between EOG and gThumb X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 23:42:15 -0000 Dear All, I am a long time GNOME user (but not a developer) and occasional reader of this mailing list. This is my first post though. I have a small usability/consistency issue, which, though rather trivial, is something of a "pet hate" for me. On playing with Fedora Core 6 Test 1 last night, I saw it is still present in the GNOME development build 2.15.2, so I thought I would raise it with you. If the user opens a graphic in gThumb and maximises it to "Full Screen" view (F11) and then zooms in (+ key) they can pan around the image using the cursors. If they then want to move to the next or previous graphic in the directory, they can use the Page Up or Page Down keys. This is all fine, so far as I am concerned. Unfortunately, Eye of GNOME (EOG) has somewhat different behaviour, that makes the two tools inconsistent with each other. On opening a graphic, switching to "Full Screen" view and zooming in, the cursors can no longer be used for panning around. Instead, pressing the up, down, left or right cursors switch the user to the previous or next graphic in the directory. Panning must be done with the mouse instead of keyboard shortcuts. My preference would definitely be that EOG be modified so that the cursors are used for panning, not for moving forwards and backwards between graphics. I have a few other questions not necessarily related to usability but I thought I would raise them. I am aware of the legal/patent concerns around playing regionally-encrypted DVDs in some nations such as the US. I normally download the rpms for Xine, including the deCSS one and use that which works fine. However, having installed DeCSS on my system, I still cannot use Totem as my player. Does Totem need to be recompiled? It would be good to modify the application so that simply installing DeCSS would enable Totem to locate it as a plug-in, thus making the default player usable for those of us in countries without these legal issues by simply adding this one file. Secondly, I am quite intrigued by Project Soylent but there is little information with regard to release dates on the website. Do you have any indication when we will start seeing the fruits of this labour? Will it be in Topaz or in a future 2.x build? Thirdly, having seen the list of Chabada's suggestions that are currently being debated on this list, I can affirm that, as an end user, I would definitely find all that he has suggested to be of benefit, including extra file information displayed in Nautilus, the Evolution mail previews and the use of GNOME Baker as part of the core desktop. More explanation in error/information messages regarding why MP3s and the like cannot be played would also be a benefit in educating users, even if some people do not read the messages. Finally, keep up the good work. I would love to see GNOME gain some more momentum in terms of adoption by desktop users. Keep striving for it! Danni From gnome-Usability@m.gmane.org Wed Jun 28 15:54:19 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86C8C3B019A for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:54:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30946-06 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:54:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51A763B008A for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:54:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Fvg6m-0003PT-M8 for Usability@gnome.org; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:53:56 +0200 Received: from 208.255.6.238 ([208.255.6.238]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:53:56 +0200 Received: from hawke by 208.255.6.238 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:53:56 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: Usability@gnome.org From: Alex Mauer Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:53:44 -0500 Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1151445381.25012.65.camel@dell.barefootcomputing.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig1F6DB6AB10F6CA222F800EE1" X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.255.6.238 User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) In-Reply-To: <1151445381.25012.65.camel@dell.barefootcomputing.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Sender: news X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.933 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.168, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=1.5, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -0.933 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 19:54:19 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig1F6DB6AB10F6CA222F800EE1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> Software cannot pay patent licenses". >=20 > The latter isn't true. That is, > (2) it's trying to play a piece of music (one imagines) and not in > fact trying to play a patent :-) "pay" is not the same as "play" --------------enig1F6DB6AB10F6CA222F800EE1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEot5Pspyc9T9S9Z8RAheWAJ9P+Ten7TVJfNyqLpkMgxG5vqKctACeOgrB b22evmr31rdj0wWzBrwZboo= =5ySV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig1F6DB6AB10F6CA222F800EE1-- From gnome-Usability@m.gmane.org Wed Jun 28 16:05:19 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D6EA3B01CE for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:05:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31334-06 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:05:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F9DD3B00DA for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:05:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1FvgGS-00058t-VK for Usability@gnome.org; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:03:56 +0200 Received: from 208.255.6.238 ([208.255.6.238]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:03:56 +0200 Received: from hawke by 208.255.6.238 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:03:56 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: Usability@gnome.org From: Alex Mauer Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:02:18 -0500 Lines: 45 Message-ID: References: <301d395f0606280256r707ec315s178e5efe70da7fce@mail.gmail.com> <20060628120412.10997.qmail@web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigF18874BA74D82C3519B16B37" X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.255.6.238 User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) In-Reply-To: <20060628120412.10997.qmail@web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Sender: news X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.085 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=1.5, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.085 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Copy & paste problem X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:05:19 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigF18874BA74D82C3519B16B37 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Joachim Noreiko wrote: > This is true -- however, the existence of the PRIMARY > system does have an impact on users, because across > all GTK application windows, there can be only one > selection. This breaks users' expectations of what an > application is, because something they do in one > window can affect the state of selection in another. >=20 > There's a bug open for this, but most solutions > suggested so far are looking at ways to highlight the > selection considered for PRIMARY in some way, and > nothing proposed so far is entirely satisfactory. Has it been proposed that PRIMARY holds the most recent selection, but making a new selection does not deselect the previous one? This seems to be the closest match to expectations, while keeping interference between PRIMARY and clipboard to a minimum. Is there anything unsatisfactory about this? > Could there be a way to combine the two systems? Is there any need to? --------------enigF18874BA74D82C3519B16B37 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEouBRspyc9T9S9Z8RAifGAJ9KrY0cHyUjd6uyvn0T2JWvtaNApwCeM2A+ oAkMWT1YVKCZluP9R3Gt0cY= =h+Uw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigF18874BA74D82C3519B16B37-- From gezimetc@shaw.ca Thu Jun 29 02:32:15 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F166A3B0206 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:32:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22815-10 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:32:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pd2mo1so.prod.shaw.ca (shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net [24.71.223.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8A5A3B000B for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:32:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pd4mr8so.prod.shaw.ca (pd4mr8so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.101]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1L008GTZF4UU80@l-daemon> for Usability@gnome.org; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 00:30:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml1so.prod.shaw.ca ([10.0.121.145]) by pd4mr8so.prod.shaw.ca (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1L00048ZF4MRC0@pd4mr8so.prod.shaw.ca> for Usability@gnome.org; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 00:30:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from laptopi ([70.65.137.227]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1L006YPZF3RJ61@l-daemon> for Usability@gnome.org; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 00:30:40 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 00:30:39 -0600 From: Gezim Hoxha In-reply-to: To: Alex Mauer Message-id: <1151562639.7932.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <301d395f0606280256r707ec315s178e5efe70da7fce@mail.gmail.com> <20060628120412.10997.qmail@web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.394 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.837, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST=1.708, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.394 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Copy & paste problem X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 06:32:15 -0000 On Wed, 2006-28-06 at 15:02 -0500, Alex Mauer wrote: > Joachim Noreiko wrote: > > This is true -- however, the existence of the PRIMARY > > system does have an impact on users, because across > > all GTK application windows, there can be only one > > selection. This breaks users' expectations of what an > > application is, because something they do in one > > window can affect the state of selection in another. > > > > There's a bug open for this, but most solutions > > suggested so far are looking at ways to highlight the > > selection considered for PRIMARY in some way, and > > nothing proposed so far is entirely satisfactory. > > Has it been proposed that PRIMARY holds the most recent selection, but > making a new selection does not deselect the previous one? This seems > to be the closest match to expectations, while keeping interference > between PRIMARY and clipboard to a minimum. What you're saying is that PRIMARY should hold the second most recent selection (saying this because you say that it should hold the most recent selection but if you selection something that is no longer the most recent selection)? If this is the case than this behaviour is not necessarily desired, because if I select a URL and then open a new tab in epiphany, there is no URL so, I'd just place the cursor at the URL bar and want to paste the _most_ recent selection, rather then the second most recent one. However, if I wanted to go to that URL from the current tab, then I'd want to paste the second most recent selection since when I click the URL bar the current URL will be selected. -Gezim From Calum.Benson@Sun.COM Fri Jun 30 09:58:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEE0F3B02AA for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:58:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23483-10 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:58:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 256893B028E for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:58:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-05.sun.com ([192.18.2.115]) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5UDwFQG009306 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 14:58:17 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-05.sun.com by d1-emea-05.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J1O00301E5LMB00@d1-emea-05.sun.com> (original mail from Calum.Benson@Sun.COM) for usability@gnome.org; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 14:58:15 +0100 (BST) Received: from vpn-129-150-116-215.UK.Sun.COM ([129.150.116.215]) by d1-emea-05.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J1O00F8BET2IFW0@d1-emea-05.sun.com>; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 14:58:15 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 15:45:03 +0200 From: Calum Benson In-reply-to: <200606271641.06914.d2004@cosmopod.com> Sender: Calum.Benson@Sun.COM To: d2004@cosmopod.com Message-id: <1151675104.6191.70.camel@localhost.localdomain> Organization: Sun Microsystems Ireland Ltd. MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <200606271641.06914.d2004@cosmopod.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.583 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.015, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.583 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Consistency Issue between EOG and gThumb X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 13:58:27 -0000 On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 16:41 -0700, d2004@cosmopod.com wrote: > My preference would definitely be that EOG be modified so that the cursors are > used for panning, not for moving forwards and backwards between graphics. Hmm, we definitely had a discussion about this very issue at one point, but I can't find a bug about it so it may just have been on IRC, and I can't remember the outcome either. Please file a bug against EOG and we'll take it from there. (I'm afraid I can't help much with your other questions though...) Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:calum.benson@sun.com Java Desktop System Group http://ie.sun.com +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems From dalibor.petricevic@iskon.hr Thu Jun 29 02:56:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5532A3B011E for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:56:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23860-03 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:56:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mxout2.iskon.hr (mxout2.iskon.hr [213.191.128.16]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 37F293B013B for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:56:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 14767 invoked from network); 29 Jun 2006 08:55:55 +0200 X-Remote-IP: 213.191.142.122 Received: from unknown (HELO mx.iskon.hr) (213.191.142.122) by mxout2.iskon.hr with SMTP; 29 Jun 2006 08:55:55 +0200 Received: (qmail 9508 invoked from network); 29 Jun 2006 08:55:55 +0200 X-Remote-IP: 213.191.128.133 Received: from lan.iskon.hr (HELO ?10.0.3.242?) (213.191.128.133) by mx.iskon.hr with SMTP; 29 Jun 2006 08:55:55 +0200 Message-ID: <44A3797B.7070509@iskon.hr> Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:55:55 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-2?Q?Dalibor_Petri=E8evi=E6?= User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Mauer References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1151445381.25012.65.camel@dell.barefootcomputing.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.11 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_05=-1.11] X-Spam-Score: -1.11 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 09:00:16 -0400 Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 06:56:03 -0000 Alex Mauer wrote: >>> Software cannot pay patent licenses". >> The latter isn't true. That is, >> (2) it's trying to play a piece of music (one imagines) and not in >> fact trying to play a patent :-) > > "pay" is not the same as "play" > This statement is 100% true. :-) -- dado From michael.s.gilbert@gmail.com Sun Jun 11 17:26:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3548B3B066D for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:26:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03372-02 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:26:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.198]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71B863B00C2 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:26:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so898841wxd for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 14:26:15 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=E6x4g84w3Wxy2kgsEZWnXCIto/u+bgbiVNUy8s0bEacoZyrS++1h7nSw17dMVy0l08l8XUJMB2wAM/jzt1NghBZBUDRXxWz9jj338jjNZIYZdCYv93fLKS2atVJI5kuo6c1KeprSWUCcpHQWmZc+d+hIXsSTUrBKNUmbpUM2pyY= Received: by 10.70.132.12 with SMTP id f12mr5681715wxd; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 14:26:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.65.5 with HTTP; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 14:26:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <8e2a98be0606111426w7d6407fdj68c34573295b317@mail.gmail.com> From: "Michael Gilbert" To: "Matthew Paul Thomas" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 09:59:24 -0400 Cc: Gnome usability , 371882@bugs.debian.org Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 21:26:54 -0000 X-Original-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:26:15 -0400 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 21:26:54 -0000 hello Matthew, thank you for looking further into these issues. On 6/9/06, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > Hardly surprising: a file search definitely isn't a "place". It's not > an application either, but at least "Applications" looks vaguely like a > Start menu. the best solution is probably an item called something like "File Finder" placed in either "Applications" or "Applications -> System Tools." my gut tells me system tools is better, but that menu is already quite cluttered. > The default should be to search everything you can access, just like in > Web search engines, agreed. > Fortunately the dialog doesn't use the inscrutable "/" terminology, but > "File System" isn't much better, and the icon for it seems to be a > harmonica. Unfortunately there isn't really any good name for > "collection of obscurely-named things that has your files hidden in it > somewhere, and your programs in it spread across several other places, > but which can't be called your hard disk because it has your other > drives hidden inside it too". i think that "All Files" is a more intuitive description for "/" than "File System," and encompasses the needs of your above description. > This is a bug in that while the Find tool tells you "No files found", > it does not mention what it was searching for, so there is no way to > distinguish between a search that has finished with no results and one > that hasn't started yet. note that if one has done a search the dialog will say "No files found" even if the user begins typing a different search term. at this point the software is lying because it doesn't know whether or not there are no files matching the new term. it would be better for the "No files found" feedback to disappear the moment the user modifies the search term or changes any item in the dialog. > Thanks for your interesting report. you're quite welcome. i'm glad to do my part to help make software better. have a nice day. mike From wohler@newt.com Tue Jun 13 12:23:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCF4E3B0071 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:23:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29812-05 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:23:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tassie.newt.com (tassie.newt.com [70.85.162.231]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06F753B00D9 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:23:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from olgas.newt.com (m590e36d0.tmodns.net [208.54.14.89]) by tassie.newt.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F3B71D0A3D; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:22:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by olgas.newt.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 937AF16FB4; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:22:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from olgas.newt.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by olgas.newt.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8971216FAD; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:22:36 -0700 (PDT) To: Calum Benson In-reply-to: References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <1149868755.7852.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <17538.1149869665@olgas.newt.com> Comments: In-reply-to Calum Benson message dated "Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:06:57 +0100." Organization: Newt Software X-Mailer: MH-E 8.0; nmh 1.1; GNU Emacs 22.0.50 X-Image-URL: http://www.newt.com/wohler/images/bill-diving.png Message-ID: <3515.1150215756@olgas.newt.com> From: Bill Wohler X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.062 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.054, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.456] X-Spam-Score: -1.062 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 09:59:24 -0400 Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 16:23:36 -0000 X-Original-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:22:36 -0700 X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 16:23:36 -0000 Calum Benson wrote: > On 9 Jun 2006, at 17:14, Bill Wohler wrote: > > > > Well, I tried C-PageUp/Down in the GtkTreeView widget (in GnuCash), > > and I have no idea what it's doing. > > In a tree view, Ctrl+PgUp/PgDn should be moving focus to the item at > the top or bottom of the current view; in other controls, it's the > shortcut for scrolling left/right: > > http://www.gnome.org/learn/access-guide/latest/keynav-23.html#keynav-35 > > If it's doing something else, it's either a bug, or it's been over- > ridden by a developer who thinks they know better :) Thanks, Calum. Well, that's not what I'm seeing. A GnuCash developer told me that he wouldn't overwrite the GtkTreeView bindings to allow C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs so it's unlikely that it has been overridden. A puzzler indeed. I'll mention this to the developers. I still think that the HIG should specify C-PageUp/Down for moving between tabs and that other widgets should not use this binding. -- Bill Wohler http://www.newt.com/wohler/ GnuPG ID:610BD9AD Maintainer of comp.mail.mh FAQ and MH-E. If you're passed on the right, you're in the wrong lane. From maurizio.colucci@gmail.com Sat Jun 3 09:44:58 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84B783B0071 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 09:44:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06472-03 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 09:44:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.225]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C22D3B04A9 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 09:44:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 50so711416wri for ; Sat, 03 Jun 2006 06:44:54 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=ueyQCybpWPMALDzDI3limxwRxIl77AriXASXgdjlnwOf+AW372pd6t9Vb64sFv7dsEpKBavtuMpnHsa4Xdronef3L9406qVAygiWe4PvwRYktPpImW1ASpjnKdnamNKMdXcz01o7/cM+dRHHr0HLE4di4q6Ou3KdSXFa3hRNpCo= Received: by 10.64.195.9 with SMTP id s9mr2455617qbf; Sat, 03 Jun 2006 06:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.237.7 with HTTP; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 06:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 15:44:54 +0200 From: "Maurizio Colucci" To: usability@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_18723_27366656.1149342294208" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.457 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.142, BAYES_05=-1.11, HTML_00_10=0.795, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.457 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Usability] Fingerprint reader X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 13:44:58 -0000 ------=_Part_18723_27366656.1149342294208 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi, Yesterday, when I had a friend of mine try the new Ubuntu, I had an unpleasant suprise: he laughed at me when he saw me type the password by hand. It seems he has been using a fingerprint reader under Windows, for more than a year now. I realized this is a feature that he will not do without, now he has gotten used to it. It seems the advantage under GNU/Linux would be even greater, since GNU/Linux requires you to type passwords more often than Windows. Is there some way to use a fingerprint reader to type passwords with Gnome? (My guess is it isn't, and that some work would be needed at the level of gksu and gdm.) I have no real point however, I only wished to inform you about this. Cheers Maurizio ------=_Part_18723_27366656.1149342294208 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi,
Yesterday, when I had a friend of mine try the new Ubuntu, I had an unpleasant suprise: he laughed at me when he saw me type the password by hand. It seems he has been using a fingerprint reader under Windows, for more than a year now.

I realized this is a feature that he will not do without, now he has gotten used to it.

It seems the advantage under GNU/Linux would be even greater, since GNU/Linux requires you to type passwords more often than Windows.

Is there some way to use a fingerprint reader to type passwords with Gnome? (My guess is it isn't, and that some work would be needed at the level of gksu and gdm.)

I have no real point however, I only wished to inform you about this. Cheers

Maurizio
------=_Part_18723_27366656.1149342294208-- From herzi@gnome-de.org Sat Jun 3 10:16:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39D073B0418 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:16:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08377-05 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:16:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.bytecamp.net (mail.bytecamp.net [212.204.60.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4B0413B011C for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:16:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 49673 invoked by uid 85); 3 Jun 2006 14:16:19 -0000 Received: from herzi@gnome-de.org by mail.bytecamp.net by uid 88 with qmail-scanner-1.20 (clamscan: 0.88.1 Clear:RC:0(80.171.61.188):. Processed in 0.020755 secs); 03 Jun 2006 14:16:19 -0000 Received: from d061188.adsl.hansenet.de (HELO wallace) (herzi%gnome-de.org@80.171.61.188) by mail.bytecamp.net with SMTP; 3 Jun 2006 14:16:18 -0000 Subject: Re: [Usability] Fingerprint reader From: Sven Herzberg To: Maurizio Colucci In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-eRqHlUcxkMCx8gO/XwrP" Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 17:35:30 +0200 Message-Id: <1149348930.5442.12.camel@wallace> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.48 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.042, BAYES_00=-2.599, TW_GD=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.48 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 14:16:27 -0000 --=-eRqHlUcxkMCx8gO/XwrP Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sa, 2006-06-03 at 15:44 +0200, Maurizio Colucci wrote: > Yesterday, when I had a friend of mine try the new Ubuntu, I had an > unpleasant suprise: he laughed at me when he saw me type the password > by hand. It seems he has been using a fingerprint reader under > Windows, for more than a year now.=20 >=20 > I realized this is a feature that he will not do without, now he has > gotten used to it.=20 >=20 > It seems the advantage under GNU/Linux would be even greater, since > GNU/Linux requires you to type passwords more often than Windows.=20 >=20 > Is there some way to use a fingerprint reader to type passwords with > Gnome? (My guess is it isn't, and that some work would be needed at > the level of gksu and gdm.)=20 The fingerprint readers in the Thinkpad X41 series do work with Linux and work with the pam-bio-api plugin. I tested this both with gdm and gksu and it works (not perfectly but, well, it wors). I only didn't test it with gnome keyring (which will be an important thing too). > I have no real point however, I only wished to inform you about this. > Cheers=20 Regards, Sven --=-eRqHlUcxkMCx8gO/XwrP Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEgaxCBWX9a7HDCv4RAn03AKDFQ6419PZ/XzvvDpkjxBimpH0sywCfawZV RYa+Y4FgXJ2XedGWhwxW8uc= =Ocwk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-eRqHlUcxkMCx8gO/XwrP-- From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Sat Jun 3 10:17:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D17B43B05AE for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:17:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08314-10 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:17:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 28FB03B0601 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:17:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 3 Jun 2006 15:17:44 +0100 (BST) Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 15:17:44 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan To: Maurizio Colucci Subject: Re: [Usability] Fingerprint reader In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 14:17:50 -0000 On Sat, 3 Jun 2006, Maurizio Colucci wrote: > Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 15:44:54 +0200 > From: Maurizio Colucci > To: usability@gnome.org > Subject: [Usability] Fingerprint reader > > Hi, > Yesterday, when I had a friend of mine try the new Ubuntu, I had an > unpleasant suprise: he laughed at me when he saw me type the password by > hand. It seems he has been using a fingerprint reader under Windows, for > more than a year now. This is a bit off topic for this list. Better to check with Ubuntu about hardware support. > It seems the advantage under GNU/Linux would be even greater, since > GNU/Linux requires you to type passwords more often than Windows. (It is easier to just type Gnome than GNU/Linux every time.) A topic more appropriate to this list would be trying to figure out ways to improve password sharing and single sign on so that you do not need to type passwords so often. > Is there some way to use a fingerprint reader to type passwords with Gnome? I assume it would fit in with the existing password infrastructure. I know Sun Microsystems have systems setup to login and authenticate off a smart card and there are suggestions of doing the same using USB keys so I'd be surprised if there wasn't already a supported finger print reader but it may take a little bit of additional work to get it up and running. > I have no real point however, I only wished to inform you about this. Cheers Thanks for trying. -- Alan From elektro@geekspot.de Sun Jun 4 11:01:01 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10C033B016C for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 11:01:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24057-03 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 11:00:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.169199.vserver.de (riedrich.biz [62.75.169.199]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45FC53B011B for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 11:00:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.169199.vserver.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id E21EB338804F for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:00:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp.169199.vserver.de ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (169199.vserver.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19483-02 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:00:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Desktop.lan (d463d0c7.datahighways.de [212.99.208.199]) by smtp.169199.vserver.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4E35338804D for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:00:39 +0200 (CEST) From: elektro To: usability@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 17:00:39 +0200 Message-Id: <1149433239.10978.15.camel@desktop> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: By ClamAV on Debian GNU/Linux at Geekspot X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.465 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.465 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Usability] The "Desktop" dilemma X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 15:01:01 -0000 Hi there, I'm new to this mailing list, so I don't know if this has already been discussed or not. What really disturbs me a lot (in almost all operating systems) is the "Desktop dilemma". I think the desktop folder, or the Desktop button in the places menu somehow just doesn't fit in. In Nautilus, in my home folder, I have a "Desktop" folder. But in the sidebar, I have a place called "personal folder", and a second place called "Desktop", although "Desktop" is also a sub-directory of my "personal folder". This is confusing, especially to new users. I think the desktop should be _either_ a directory, _or_ a place, but not both. My suggestion would be to have the desktop only show up as a place, and the files on the desktop could be stored in a hidden ".desktop" directory within the user's home. Another thing is the two Nautilus toolbar buttons "Personal folder" and "Computer". The button in the toolbar says "Personal folder", while the same button in the sidebar reads my username. I think both buttons should be removed, instead, the "Computer" icon should also appear as a button in the "places" sidebar. I'd bring some new arrangement into the places sidebar, similar to the one in the "Places" menu in the panel: -------- Personal Desktop -------- Computer File system -------- Network servers -------- The problem with the current layout is that all drives are completely mixed together, the "file system" place is also somewhere in between. When you go the the "Computer" place, you see all attached/mounted drives as icons. The problem is that it's hard to see if a drive is actually mounted or not, for example my USB stick: It's hard to see from the icon if it is mounted or not. What I also really miss is the ability to unmount/eject an external drive be right-clicking the icon in the sidebar or in the Places menu. Mac OS X is doing this right: An mounted CD-ROM appars in a Finder sidebar, similar to Nautilus, but there's a little "eject button" next to the icon, when you click this, the CD is unmounted and ejected. Perhaps you could add such an eject button to the places sidebar and the places panel menu. Tom From david@sipsolutions.net Sun Jun 4 14:35:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B06D43B017A for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 14:35:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03644-08 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 14:35:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sipsolutions.net (crystal.sipsolutions.net [195.210.38.204]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DE083B0130 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 14:35:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [84.133.205.221] (helo=[192.168.1.7]) by sipsolutions.net with esmtpsa (TLS-1.0:RSA_ARCFOUR_MD5:16) (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FmxRy-0007EF-Op; Sun, 04 Jun 2006 19:35:47 +0100 Subject: Re: [Usability] The "Desktop" dilemma From: David Christian Berg To: elektro In-Reply-To: <1149433239.10978.15.camel@desktop> References: <1149433239.10978.15.camel@desktop> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 20:34:58 +0200 Message-Id: <1149446101.8310.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 18:35:51 -0000 Hey Tom! > I think the desktop should be _either_ a directory, _or_ a place, but > not both. My suggestion would be to have the desktop only show up as a > place, and the files on the desktop could be stored in a hidden > ".desktop" directory within the user's home. Would you be ok with displaying the desktop as a desktop icon in the home directory as well so that it's easily distinguishable from other folders? > Another thing is the two Nautilus toolbar buttons "Personal folder" and > "Computer". The button in the toolbar says "Personal folder", while the > same button in the sidebar reads my username. I think both buttons > should be removed, instead, the "Computer" icon should also appear as a > button in the "places" sidebar. In my version the folder reads "Home Folder" and the button "Go to home folder" I don't think there's anything wrong with this, because many people might not use the tree view on the sidepane. The computer icon is not needed in the tree view, because you see the drives anyways > I'd bring some new arrangement into the places sidebar, similar to the > one in the "Places" menu in the panel: > > -------- > Personal > Desktop > -------- > Computer > File system > > > > -------- > Network servers > > -------- > The problem with the current layout is that all drives are completely > mixed together, the "file system" place is also somewhere in between. I do like the idea of dividing them this way and also would add a separate section for mounted media like cams and usb sticks, floppies and CDs... if possible. However, does GTK TreeView have a dividing element? As for the Computer: I'd leave it unchanged > When you go the the "Computer" place, you see all attached/mounted > drives as icons. The problem is that it's hard to see if a drive is > actually mounted or not, for example my USB stick: It's hard to see from > the icon if it is mounted or not. What I also really miss is the ability > to unmount/eject an external drive be right-clicking the icon in the > sidebar or in the Places menu. Mac OS X is doing this right: An mounted > CD-ROM appars in a Finder sidebar, similar to Nautilus, but there's a > little "eject button" next to the icon, when you click this, the CD is > unmounted and ejected. Perhaps you could add such an eject button to the > places sidebar and the places panel menu. Afaik you only see the icon, if it is mounted... at least it should be that way with all the media. Take care! David From chris@gnome-de.org Mon Jun 5 09:09:35 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 849453B0208 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:09:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00391-01 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:09:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.bytecamp.net (mail.bytecamp.net [212.204.60.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 56FE63B02DA for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:09:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 3177 invoked by uid 85); 5 Jun 2006 13:09:21 -0000 Received: from chris@gnome-de.org by mail.bytecamp.net by uid 88 with qmail-scanner-1.20 (clamscan: 0.88.1 Clear:RC:0(84.150.144.79):. Processed in 0.190123 secs); 05 Jun 2006 13:09:21 -0000 Received: from p5496904f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (HELO ?192.168.123.191?) (chris@gnome-de.org@84.150.144.79) by mail.bytecamp.net with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 13:09:20 -0000 Subject: Re: [Usability] Fingerprint reader From: Christian Neumair To: Maurizio Colucci In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 15:02:50 +0200 Message-Id: <1149512570.8272.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.587 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.012, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.587 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:09:35 -0000 Am Samstag, den 03.06.2006, 15:44 +0200 schrieb Maurizio Colucci: > Hi, > Yesterday, when I had a friend of mine try the new Ubuntu, I had an > unpleasant suprise: he laughed at me when he saw me type the password > by hand. It seems he has been using a fingerprint reader under > Windows, for more than a year now. > > I realized this is a feature that he will not do without, now he has > gotten used to it. > > It seems the advantage under GNU/Linux would be even greater, since > GNU/Linux requires you to type passwords more often than Windows. > > Is there some way to use a fingerprint reader to type passwords with > Gnome? (My guess is it isn't, and that some work would be needed at > the level of gksu and gdm.) > > I have no real point however, I only wished to inform you about this. > Cheers I filed an Ubuntu spec some months ago: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FingerprintAuthentication All the tools seem to be available already. As soon as the framework is in place, we'll adapt the GNOME stack to support it, creating a configuration and authentication UI, and gnome-keyring integration. I contacted the BioAPI packager Michael R. Crusoe some time ago to ask him whether he will split up the packages a bit, but I didn't get any response so far. From hadess@hadess.net Mon Jun 5 15:50:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9155B3B085A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:50:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26525-04 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:50:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lucifer.nerdfest.org (lucifer.nerdfest.org [216.243.209.218]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 426593B08B0 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:50:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.5] (cpc4-glfd1-0-0-cust751.glfd.cable.ntl.com [86.16.126.240]) (authenticated bits=0) by lucifer.nerdfest.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k55JoPoh009983 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:50:28 -0500 Subject: Re: [Usability] Fingerprint reader From: Bastien Nocera To: Maurizio Colucci In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:55:11 +0100 Message-Id: <1149537312.9198.9.camel@wyatt.hadess.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.5.90 (2.5.90-2.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.88.2/1512/Sun Jun 4 04:58:49 2006 on lucifer.nerdfest.org X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.594 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.006, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.594 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:50:45 -0000 On Sat, 2006-06-03 at 15:44 +0200, Maurizio Colucci wrote: > Hi, > Yesterday, when I had a friend of mine try the new Ubuntu, I had an > unpleasant suprise: he laughed at me when he saw me type the password > by hand. It seems he has been using a fingerprint reader under > Windows, for more than a year now. A combination of pam_keyring, and the pam modules Sven mentioned should do: http://www.hekanetworks.com/index.php/publisher/articleview/frmArticleID/25/staticId/31/ -- Bastien Nocera From glatzor@ubuntu.com Tue Jun 6 08:03:14 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEBF33B08AA for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:03:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19222-06 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:03:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail-out.m-online.net (mail-out.m-online.net [212.18.0.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6463D3B0979 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:02:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail01.m-online.net (svr21.m-online.net [192.168.3.149]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76F2672CC4 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:02:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pimpzkru.dyndns.org (ppp-62-245-208-121.mnet-online.de [62.245.208.121]) by mail.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CBC891424 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:02:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pimpzkru.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE831D2C38 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:16:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pimpzkru.dyndns.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (server.daheim [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32591-08 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:16:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from sebi-mac.daheim (sebi-mac.daheim [10.169.18.2]) by pimpzkru.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9B05D2C2C for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:16:31 +0200 (CEST) From: Sebastian Heinlein To: usability@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 14:01:40 +0200 Message-Id: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at pimpzkru X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.435 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.029, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.435 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Usability] Using nouns or verbs for the disclosure widgets X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:03:15 -0000 Hi, would you recommend to use a noun for the disclosure widgets e.g. "Details" or verbs e.g. "Show details"/"Hide details"? There is no corresponding section in the HIG. And both variants are in use currently. Regards, Sebastian From raeth.phox@gmail.com Tue Jun 6 08:19:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9826F3B08AA for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:19:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20110-07 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:19:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.172]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7004D3B0141 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:19:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id o2so1645338uge for ; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 05:18:59 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=tzLanvgM7DJ/K0gtFSV1wYYqtq8vky0oxlEnHI8oKGZofqP/pbVnOLV7L7iYyewPK9Gme2GZTeyuoMqaNb3XagvchsF2X4ZxJVbIEFZZLbxc9pw44qz/1fjm8q28B7cABezCyBe6Dbv4CVDkQNx8+mmYVGk7Jp+NK9CFUNLM1Tg= Received: by 10.78.18.1 with SMTP id 1mr1130306hur; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 05:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.50.15 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 05:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <878a8ff60606060518h749cc845x32a54fa2ded2650d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 13:18:59 +0100 From: Raeth Subject: Re: [Usability] Using nouns or verbs for the disclosure widgets Cc: usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.042 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.558, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.042 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:19:03 -0000 Hey, I'd go with "Show/Hide details", as it indicates whether the details are being currently shown or hidden. I think a verb would be more fitting with natural language. If I wanted to see the details, I'd want to "show details". I wouldn't go "details" to hide or show them. If they were on a tab you'd want the objective noun, like a title, but seeing as the disclosure widget is an action, I'd go with an action phrase. A verb would correspond with the such commonly used verbs as "save file" and "cancel". Raeth On 6/6/06, Sebastian Heinlein wrote: > Hi, > > would you recommend to use a noun for the disclosure widgets e.g. > "Details" or verbs e.g. "Show details"/"Hide details"? > > There is no corresponding section in the HIG. And both variants are in > use currently. > > Regards, > > Sebastian From Calum.Benson@Sun.COM Tue Jun 6 18:39:53 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81A1D3B01E8 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 18:39:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26404-10 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 18:39:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B08643B00E6 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 18:39:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-01.sun.com (d1-emea-01.sun.com [192.18.2.111] (may be forged)) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k56Mdlui019400 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 23:39:47 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-01.sun.com by d1-emea-01.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0G00H01HQ39T00@d1-emea-01.sun.com> (original mail from Calum.Benson@Sun.COM) for usability@gnome.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 23:39:46 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([213.202.177.89]) by d1-emea-01.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0G00IGYMYAOE00@d1-emea-01.sun.com>; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 23:39:46 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 23:39:43 +0100 From: Calum Benson Subject: Re: [Usability] Using nouns or verbs for the disclosure widgets In-reply-to: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> Sender: Calum.Benson@Sun.COM To: Sebastian Heinlein Message-id: <5FB97E1B-5914-4EB7-9674-ADDF1C47C503@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 22:39:53 -0000 On 6 Jun 2006, at 13:01, Sebastian Heinlein wrote: > would you recommend to use a noun for the disclosure widgets e.g. > "Details" or verbs e.g. "Show details"/"Hide details"? Hmm... out if interest I looked at the Apple guidelines, and it said that verbs were preferred, then illustrated the guideline with an example using a noun :) Seems like it's not just our HIG that has that kind of problem... http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/ OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGControls/chapter_18_section_7.html#//apple_ref/ doc/uid/TP30000359-TPXREF141 Personally, I've always labelled disclosure widgets in the same way I'd label a frame, i.e. with a noun (but without the bold text, of course). The direction of the arrow, in conjunction with the presence or absence of controls below it, seems sufficient to indicate the current shown/hidden status IMHO. And dynamically changing text is never much fun for screenreaders to keep up with either. > There is no corresponding section in the HIG. Yeah, that placeholder's been there a while :/ I really want to get stuck into the HIG post-GUADEC (assuming I'm not one of Sun's unlucky 5000....) Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:calum.benson@sun.com Java Desktop System Team http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Wed Jun 7 05:42:50 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13CA93B0C9A for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 05:42:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32165-01 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 05:42:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 339AA3B0AE7 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 05:42:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 7 Jun 2006 10:42:44 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 10:42:42 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan To: Calum Benson Subject: Re: [Usability] Using nouns or verbs for the disclosure widgets In-Reply-To: <5FB97E1B-5914-4EB7-9674-ADDF1C47C503@sun.com> Message-ID: References: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> <5FB97E1B-5914-4EB7-9674-ADDF1C47C503@sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 09:42:50 -0000 On Tue, 6 Jun 2006, Calum Benson wrote: [...] > Yeah, that placeholder's been there a while :/ I really want to get > stuck into the HIG post-GUADEC (assuming I'm not one of Sun's unlucky > 5000....) If you are among the unlucky hundreds it would be a serious loss to Gnome, since you seem to be the only usability professional actively helping on this list anymore. If there are other usability professionals here rather than enthusiastic amateurs please do feel free to (re)introduce yourselves. -- Alan From gnome-Usability@m.gmane.org Wed Jun 7 18:55:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11D1B3B0E64 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 18:55:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20656-09 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 18:55:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2131A3B0DED for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 18:55:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Fo6w6-0002OX-Iw for Usability@gnome.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:55:38 +0200 Received: from h-68-165-5-38.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.5.38]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:55:38 +0200 Received: from wohler by h-68-165-5-38.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:55:38 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: Usability@gnome.org From: Bill Wohler Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 15:55:24 -0700 Organization: Newt Software Lines: 20 Message-ID: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: h-68-165-5-38.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:VJ8cSiv38JexgyR7BZmb2CDKtXA= Sender: news X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 22:55:52 -0000 I think it is common to use C-PageUp and C-PageDown to move between tabs (for example, Galeon). Is this true? The latest version of GnuCash has tabs, and I'd like to be able to use keyboard navigation to move between them. Note that the tabs have different views using different GTK widgets. Currently, some of the tabs, such as the account tree view, allow C-M-PageUp and C-M-PageDown. Should the developers override the GtkTreeView widget so that C-PageUp and C-PageDown move between the tabs? Should this widget be fixed so that these keystrokes move between tabs by default? Or, something else entirely? I look forward to your thoughts. -- Bill Wohler http://www.newt.com/wohler/ GnuPG ID:610BD9AD Maintainer of comp.mail.mh FAQ and MH-E. If you're passed on the right, you're in the wrong lane. From newren@gmail.com Wed Jun 7 19:18:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDB033B0381 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:18:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22064-05 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:18:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.196]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B32933B019C for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:18:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so308940wxd for ; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 16:18:46 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=TWqobyNh87WUejW4RD35y63ZAvcLUk+QGiLvnvF+KPzTm9RHFZF5VjW7d7y89W/8kJt5+sbkOZFTBJUsJR1d8YM4amj/MEV+YRxnVBediNYQs9Km6z3RNHwua8n60ly83WjGy6d7j97OMrGnJZgPCTD6u1syejJPGylqaWkIzho= Received: by 10.70.73.15 with SMTP id v15mr1343030wxa; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 16:18:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.7 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 16:18:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 17:18:28 -0600 From: "Elijah Newren" To: "Bill Wohler" Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs In-Reply-To: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.575 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.575 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 23:18:49 -0000 On 6/7/06, Bill Wohler wrote: > I think it is common to use C-PageUp and C-PageDown to move between > tabs (for example, Galeon). Is this true? Also used by Mozilla, Firefox, Epiphany, X-Chat, and gnome-terminal, at least. I was planning on adding a keybinding based off it (C-A-PageUp/PageDown) for Metacity for multiscreen (non-xinerama) users to switch the focus between screens (see bug 101659). So, I'd say it's becoming fairly common. Would be nice if there were even greater consistency among apps in this area (gedit, for example, doesn't play along and it took me a while to figure out the keybinding). From Calum.Benson@Sun.COM Wed Jun 7 19:42:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5B033B0E85 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:42:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23635-02 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:42:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D516F3B036A for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:42:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-05.sun.com (d1-emea-05.sun.com [192.18.2.115] (may be forged)) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k57NgGIx020123 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 00:42:16 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-05.sun.com by d1-emea-05.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0I00K01DXE8100@d1-emea-05.sun.com> (original mail from Calum.Benson@Sun.COM) for Usability@gnome.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:42:15 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([194.125.112.30]) by d1-emea-05.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0I00I7RKIFLH30@d1-emea-05.sun.com>; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:42:15 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:42:11 +0100 From: Calum Benson Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs In-reply-to: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> Sender: Calum.Benson@Sun.COM To: Bill Wohler Message-id: <8D893175-CF50-4807-B113-1A7D97A2E36A@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 23:42:20 -0000 On 7 Jun 2006, at 23:55, Bill Wohler wrote: > I think it is common to use C-PageUp and C-PageDown to move between > tabs (for example, Galeon). Is this true? > > The latest version of GnuCash has tabs, and I'd like to be able to use > keyboard navigation to move between them. Note that the tabs have > different views using different GTK widgets. Currently, some of the > tabs, such as the account tree view, allow C-M-PageUp and > C-M-PageDown. > > Should the developers override the GtkTreeView widget so that > C-PageUp and C-PageDown move between the tabs? Should this widget be > fixed so that these keystrokes move between tabs by default? Or, > something else entirely? Well, Ctrl-Alt-PgUp/PgDn is the documented[1] alternative for places that Ctrl-PgUp/PgDn doesn't/can't work (i.e. because of the focused control using Ctrl-PgUp/PgDn itself). Unless we can come up with a plan for avoiding the collisions that require the use of Alt in some situations, I'd recommend sticking with the current consistent-if-a- little-clunky behaviour, rather than overriding it in some places but (inevitably) not others. Cheeri, Calum. [1] http://www.gnome.org/learn/access-guide/latest/ keynav-23.html#keynav-33 -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:calum.benson@sun.com Java Desktop System Team http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems From mpt@myrealbox.com Wed Jun 7 20:08:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 565953B04C8 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 20:08:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24932-06 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 20:08:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from leucothea.redline.site5.com (leucothea.redline.site5.com [216.118.97.161]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A22143B0384 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 20:08:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ool-44c0bc13.dyn.optonline.net ([68.192.188.19] helo=[192.168.0.5]) by leucothea.redline.site5.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.52) id 1Fo84Q-0007No-7s; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 20:08:18 -0400 In-Reply-To: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> References: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <83a57a3908c9daadda5812fafca772a5@myrealbox.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Matthew Paul Thomas Subject: Re: [Usability] Using nouns or verbs for the disclosure widgets Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 20:07:37 -0400 To: Gnome usability X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.623) X-Antivirus-Scanner: This message has been scanned by ClamAV. X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - leucothea.redline.site5.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnome.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - myrealbox.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:08:27 -0000 On Jun 6, 2006, at 8:01 AM, Sebastian Heinlein wrote: > ... > would you recommend to use a noun for the disclosure widgets e.g. > "Details" or verbs e.g. "Show details"/"Hide details"? > ... Hi Sebastian I suggest making the label a summary of the values of the disclosed controls, if practical, not just a description. "Details" is the least informative example of a description, and may be appropriate if you want the expander to be very unobtrusive. But a more informative label may reduce the need for people to expand the section at all. For example, |> Progress details which expands to __ \/ Progress details Time remaining: about 11 minutes Progress: 15 of 29 items Copying: vilanova_presentation.ogg Size: 10.0 MB of 45.0 MB is much less useful than |> Time remaining: about 11 minutes which expands to __ \/ Time remaining: about 11 minutes Progress: 15 of 29 items Copying: vilanova_presentation.ogg Size: 10.0 MB of 45.0 MB Conversely, a more informative label may give a clue of unusual things that you set accidentally, or that you set long ago and then forgot about. For example: __ \/ Custom style sheet (2 rules active) __________________________________________________________ |:link, :visited {text-decoration: underline !important} | |a[href^="javascript:"] {color: green !important} | | | |__________________________________________________________| Switching between "Show Foo" and "Hide Foo" would make the function of the control more obvious, but it would also make the label jump around between collapsed and expanded states. It also would result in ugly repetition where several expander controls were next to each other. For example, repeating "Show" Printing the heading for each in a formatting palette would expandable area by itself is look nasty: much easier to scan: ___________________________ ___________________________ |(X) Formatting (-)| |(X) Formatting (-)| |___________________________| |___________________________| |_>_Show_Font_Settings______| |_>_Font____________________| |_>_Show_Paragraph_Settings_| |_>_Paragraph_______________| |_>_Show_List_Settings______| |_>_List____________________| |_>_Show_Border_Settings____| |_>_Border__________________| |_>_Show_Page_Settings______| |_>_Page____________________| Cheers -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ From nigel.tao.gnome@gmail.com Thu Jun 8 02:08:21 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B93C23B0585 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 02:08:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10570-08 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 02:08:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.229]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8F183B0576 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 02:08:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 50so362302wri for ; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 23:08:17 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=G3ca7jhamDoCoDkkhkKhrUk2Q8C8QWNKTdZLp99+4qZYcnpQa0AU5XGm6ozUs1WCS3EzZwoGN55kTdpnL2dlPPIx9cpa5uYOGLhRDC8u+PuWuWFWj4zh5KNrGruUt74CaE1J7kC758zhIHElrqc9XnBPALEbQIL98Mb9LntRxtE= Received: by 10.64.47.19 with SMTP id u19mr1451658qbu; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 23:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.214.18 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 23:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9188fcea0606072308n35ce5008xcd047c8cd7fca53d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 16:08:16 +1000 From: "Nigel Tao" To: "Elijah Newren" Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs In-Reply-To: <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.569 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.031, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.569 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org, Bill Wohler X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 06:08:21 -0000 > Would be nice if there were even > greater consistency among apps in this area (gedit, for example, > doesn't play along and it took me a while to figure out the > keybinding). Somewhat tangential, I recently wrote a gedit plugin so that C-PageUp and C-PageDown switches between tabs. C-A-PageUp and C-A-PageDown still works, too. http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gedit-list/2006-May/msg00039.html From nudrema@gmail.com Thu Jun 8 02:10:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 508793B0564 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 02:10:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10923-04 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 02:10:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swip.net (mailfe03.swip.net [212.247.154.65]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C74D73B0576 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 02:10:38 -0400 (EDT) X-T2-Posting-ID: Ee7YIbSG3O5rNcT4cGADretWTWrDEjpwS9FwzyhFhzk= X-Cloudmark-Score: 0.000000 [] Received: from [83.182.30.136] (HELO [10.0.0.13]) by mailfe03.swip.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.8) with ESMTP id 217242419 for Usability@gnome.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 08:10:36 +0200 Message-ID: <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 08:10:33 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Steve_Fr=E9cinaux?= User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060522) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.964 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.434, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_NEUTRAL=1.069] X-Spam-Score: -1.964 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 06:10:41 -0000 Elijah Newren wrote: > On 6/7/06, Bill Wohler wrote: >> I think it is common to use C-PageUp and C-PageDown to move between >> tabs (for example, Galeon). Is this true? > > Also used by Mozilla, Firefox, Epiphany, X-Chat, and gnome-terminal, > at least. Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown is the accelerator the HIG recommend for the Gnome desktop. > I was planning on adding a keybinding based off it > (C-A-PageUp/PageDown) for Metacity for multiscreen (non-xinerama) > users to switch the focus between screens (see bug 101659). So, I'd > say it's becoming fairly common. Before doing that remember that Ctrl+Alt+PageUp/PageDown is the fallback shortcut for switching tabs that is used when Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown is not available. It's stated in the HIG (iirc) and is used, for instance, by gedit. > Would be nice if there were even > greater consistency among apps in this area (gedit, for example, > doesn't play along and it took me a while to figure out the > keybinding). Gedit suffers the same problem than Bill's software: the Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown key combination is eaten by GtkTextView, at Gtk level (for going to the next/previous paragraph, iirc). The actual accelerator will be more discoverable in further gedit versions since there is now a menu entry for switching tab (as there is one in epiphany, for instance) From lool+gnome@via.ecp.fr Thu Jun 8 15:47:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 617B03B04B1 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 15:47:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00800-04 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 15:47:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx0.bpl-group.org (mx0.bpl-group.org [195.115.71.69]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D15523B0766 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 15:47:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bee.dooz.org (levallois.dooz.org [81.57.180.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "lminier.people.bpl-group.org", Issuer "BPL Group People Certification Authority" (verified OK)) by mx0.bpl-group.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BDAEC4C9; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 21:47:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: by bee.dooz.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4E5D24F02FA; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 21:47:22 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 21:47:22 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lo=EFc?= Minier To: usability@gnome.org, 371882@bugs.debian.org Message-ID: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.575 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.024, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.575 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 19:47:33 -0000 Hi, Michael Gilbert (michael.s.gilbert -at- gmail.com) explained his experience when introducing GNOME to people otherwise running Windows in Debian bug http://bugs.debian.org/371882: """ at work the other day a couple windows-locked coworkers of mine were attempting to use a fedora system. they were attempting to figure out if a particular application was available on the system. they had no idea where to go to do a file search (they expected it to be in the start menu, but gave up after they found it wasn't under applications). so then they tried nautilus, but couldn't figure out where to go. they dropped down to / where they were even more dumbfounded. a comment was "what are all these directories and how am i supposed to find anything in this mess." i suggested looking in /usr/local and /opt but both came up empty. i suggested that they try the search under the gnome places menu, at which point they were able to find some similarity to their expectations. at first they used the defaults and only searched in their home directory (inadvertently assuming that the file must not be on the disk even though their search path was too limited), at which point i said you should search from the / directory. they opened the gnome file selector, and could not figure out how to pick / (in fact they didn't understand the concept of /, or how it relates to something like c:). i also didn't know how to select / directly from the gnome file selector this, but eventually figured out if you select the topmost directory breakout at the top of the file selector that you will get / as your selection. this is very non-obvious and needs to be fixed. so they tried their search, which completed *way* too fast for their expectations (likely because they are used to windows searches taking significant time to search an entire disk because file lists are not cached as scrollkeeper does). so i did a "find / | grep fname" which also came up empty to indicate to them that indeed the file they were looking for was not on the system. at one point another comment was "it seems like they do things differently just to be different," referring to the gnome desktop in general vs windows. anyway, hope you can find some useful bits from the mindset virgin gnome users. need more details? just ask. """ I initially tried opening a discussion at , but was suggested that this list would be a better place. (Please keep 371882@bdo in copy and add 371882-submitter@bdo if you want to copy Michael Gilbert.) Bye, -- Loïc Minier From bjourne@gmail.com Fri Jun 9 11:32:25 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E57533B0147 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:32:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02538-08 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:32:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.207]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E55FB3B02F7 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:32:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so654060wxd for ; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 08:32:21 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=McMsr9UbsQrkheYyfxiAcapOm/Xuc8Of7xlng/xz9cIKh1tbNMbqtyQLEGG11aQZzS4UMFABCCwUeMApOsqGEyjlKyNjv31WRTSfb8ug64jiJ6+CK1KrhYm1K4yxwDY7xqzGIerl00hQwi6n43htIWUBOSyNAcATL6NHQDUEG4A= Received: by 10.70.62.1 with SMTP id k1mr3581069wxa; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 08:32:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.115.6 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 08:32:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:32:19 +0200 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?BJ=F6rn_Lindqvist?=" To: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs In-Reply-To: <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.496 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.027, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001, TW_MV=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.496 X-Spam-Level: Cc: X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 15:32:25 -0000 > Gedit suffers the same problem than Bill's software: the > Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown key combination is eaten by GtkTextView, at Gtk > level (for going to the next/previous paragraph, iirc). The actual Wouldn't the right solution then be to fix GtkTextView so that it doesn't steal Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown? --=20 mvh Bj=F6rn From gnome-Usability@m.gmane.org Fri Jun 9 11:50:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 009143B032D for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:50:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03783-02 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:50:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE4163B024A for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:50:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1FojFO-00052n-5Z for Usability@gnome.org; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 17:50:06 +0200 Received: from h-68-165-4-198.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.4.198]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 17:50:06 +0200 Received: from wohler by h-68-165-4-198.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 17:50:06 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: Usability@gnome.org From: Bill Wohler Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 08:49:10 -0700 Organization: Newt Software Lines: 15 Message-ID: <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: h-68-165-4-198.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:rY1IfAkLd+KrTmPRanzn/dE9Bdc= Sender: news X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: [Usability] Re: Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 15:50:33 -0000 "BJörn Lindqvist" writes: >> Gedit suffers the same problem than Bill's software: the >> Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown key combination is eaten by GtkTextView, at Gtk >> level (for going to the next/previous paragraph, iirc). The actual > > Wouldn't the right solution then be to fix GtkTextView so that it > doesn't steal Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown? And GtkTreeView and possibly others. That's what I was thinking. Doable? -- Bill Wohler http://www.newt.com/wohler/ GnuPG ID:610BD9AD Maintainer of comp.mail.mh FAQ and MH-E. If you're passed on the right, you're in the wrong lane. From Calum.Benson@Sun.COM Fri Jun 9 11:59:21 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D20323B02F7 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:59:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04251-01 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:59:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD6AD3B024A for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:59:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-01.sun.com ([192.18.2.111]) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k59FxGjj008284 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:59:18 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-01.sun.com by d1-emea-01.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0L00D01NQKYK00@d1-emea-01.sun.com> (original mail from Calum.Benson@Sun.COM) for Usability@gnome.org; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:59:16 +0100 (BST) Received: from vpn-129-150-116-25.UK.Sun.COM ([129.150.116.25]) by d1-emea-01.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0L008BXOER2330@d1-emea-01.sun.com>; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:59:16 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:59:14 +0100 From: Calum Benson Subject: Re: [Usability] Re: Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs In-reply-to: <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> Sender: Calum.Benson@Sun.COM To: Bill Wohler Message-id: <1149868755.7852.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Organization: Sun Microsystems Ireland Ltd. MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.582 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.582 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 15:59:22 -0000 On Fri, 2006-06-09 at 08:49 -0700, Bill Wohler wrote: > "BJörn Lindqvist" writes: > > >> Gedit suffers the same problem than Bill's software: the > >> Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown key combination is eaten by GtkTextView, at Gtk > >> level (for going to the next/previous paragraph, iirc). The actual > > > > Wouldn't the right solution then be to fix GtkTextView so that it > > doesn't steal Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown? > > And GtkTreeView and possibly others. That's what I was thinking. Doable? More than likely, but only if you can suggest alternative keybindings for those existing TextView/TreeView functions that are sufficiently consistent/discoverable. Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:calum.benson@sun.com Java Desktop System Group http://ie.sun.com +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems From gnome-Usability@m.gmane.org Fri Jun 9 12:19:37 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ECF33B1112 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 12:19:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05786-06 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 12:19:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FC813B1120 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 12:19:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1FojhH-0003Ev-L0 for Usability@gnome.org; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 18:18:55 +0200 Received: from h-68-165-4-198.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.4.198]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 18:18:55 +0200 Received: from wohler by h-68-165-4-198.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 18:18:55 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: Usability@gnome.org From: Bill Wohler Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 09:18:45 -0700 Organization: Newt Software Lines: 27 Message-ID: <87slme715m.fsf@olgas.newt.com> References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <1149868755.7852.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: h-68-165-4-198.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:BstvWzstfMaA5FgcQdtcEdthMak= Sender: news X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.597 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.004, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.597 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: [Usability] Re: Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:19:37 -0000 Calum Benson writes: > On Fri, 2006-06-09 at 08:49 -0700, Bill Wohler wrote: >> "BJörn Lindqvist" writes: >> >> >> Gedit suffers the same problem than Bill's software: the >> >> Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown key combination is eaten by GtkTextView, at Gtk >> >> level (for going to the next/previous paragraph, iirc). The actual >> > >> > Wouldn't the right solution then be to fix GtkTextView so that it >> > doesn't steal Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown? >> >> And GtkTreeView and possibly others. That's what I was thinking. Doable? > > More than likely, but only if you can suggest alternative keybindings > for those existing TextView/TreeView functions that are sufficiently > consistent/discoverable. Well, I tried C-PageUp/Down in the GtkTreeView widget (in GnuCash), and I have no idea what it's doing. It's sort of like PageUp/Down, but it doesn't move the screen the same amount. Suffice to say, I would not mourn its loss. -- Bill Wohler http://www.newt.com/wohler/ GnuPG ID:610BD9AD Maintainer of comp.mail.mh FAQ and MH-E. If you're passed on the right, you're in the wrong lane. From mpt@myrealbox.com Fri Jun 9 16:56:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC7DA3B01AB for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:56:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20116-10 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:56:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from leucothea.redline.site5.com (leucothea.redline.site5.com [216.118.97.161]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11A453B0122 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:56:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ool-44c0bc13.dyn.optonline.net ([68.192.188.19] helo=[192.168.0.5]) by leucothea.redline.site5.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.52) id 1Foo1c-00028w-53; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:56:12 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> References: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Matthew Paul Thomas Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:38:35 -0400 To: Gnome usability X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.623) X-Antivirus-Scanner: This message has been scanned by ClamAV. X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - leucothea.redline.site5.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnome.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - myrealbox.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Cc: michael.s.gilbert@gmail.com X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 20:56:18 -0000 On Jun 8, 2006, at 3:47 PM, Lo=EFc Minier wrote: > ... > """ > at work the other day a couple windows-locked coworkers of mine were > attempting to use a fedora system. they were attempting to figure out > if a particular application was available on the system. they had no > idea where to go to do a file search (they expected it to be in the > start menu, but gave up after they found it wasn't under = applications). Hardly surprising: a file search definitely isn't a "place". It's not=20 an application either, but at least "Applications" looks vaguely like a=20= Start menu. > so then they tried nautilus, but couldn't figure out where to go. =20 > they dropped down to / where they were even more dumbfounded. a=20 > comment was "what are all these directories and how am i supposed to=20= > find anything in this mess." That problem will continue until Fedora begins using human-readable=20 directory names (like GoboLinux, Mac OS, and Windows all do to varying=20= extents). > ... > i suggested that they try the search under the gnome places menu, at > which point they were able to find some similarity to their > expectations. at first they used the defaults and only searched in > their home directory (inadvertently assuming that the file must not be > on the disk even though their search path was too limited), Again, they were right and the OS was wrong. The default should be to=20 search everything you can access, just like in Web search engines,=20 because (a) you are likely to be searching for programs, which usually=20= aren't in your home folder, and (b) searching everything will usually=20 be quicker (as you suggested later) than choosing a correct scope then=20= searching within that. > at which point i said you should search from the / directory. they=20 > opened the gnome file selector, and could not figure out how to pick /=20= > (in fact they didn't understand the concept of /, or how it relates to=20= > something like c:). i also didn't know how to select / directly from=20= > the gnome file selector this, but eventually figured out if you select=20= > the topmost directory breakout at the top of the file selector that=20= > you will get / as your selection. this is very non-obvious and needs=20= > to be fixed. Fortunately the dialog doesn't use the inscrutable "/" terminology, but=20= "File System" isn't much better, and the icon for it seems to be a=20 harmonica. Unfortunately there isn't really any good name for=20 "collection of obscurely-named things that has your files hidden in it=20= somewhere, and your programs in it spread across several other places,=20= but which can't be called your hard disk because it has your other=20 drives hidden inside it too". > so they tried their search, which completed *way* too fast for their > expectations (likely because they are used to windows searches taking > significant time to search an entire disk because file lists are not > cached as scrollkeeper does). > ... This is a bug in that while the Find tool tells you "No files found",=20 it does not mention what it was searching for, so there is no way to=20 distinguish between a search that has finished with no results and one=20= that hasn't started yet. Thanks for your interesting report. --=20 Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/= From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Sun Jun 11 11:05:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C6083B0088 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 11:05:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15678-04 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 11:05:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AB3C83B0084 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 11:05:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 11 Jun 2006 16:04:32 +0100 (BST) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 16:04:32 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lo=EFc?= Minier Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" In-Reply-To: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> Message-ID: References: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 15:05:20 -0000 On Thu, 8 Jun 2006, [iso-8859-1] Lo=EFc Minier wrote: > Michael Gilbert (michael.s.gilbert -at- gmail.com) explained his > experience when introducing GNOME to people otherwise running Windows in > Debian bug http://bugs.debian.org/371882: > """ > at work the other day a couple windows-locked coworkers of mine were > attempting to use a fedora system. they were attempting to figure out > if a particular application was available on the system. I do think things would be easier for windows users (in fact easier than windows) if Gnome were using a single main menu on the bottom left corner which is what Novell are doing. Strangely enough it was Novell/Ximian who proposed the two panel layout in the first place even though they have since abandoned it (this was discussed quite recently but I dont expect the two panel layout to go away anytime soon). The run dialog can be useful in this case. If you know the application name and type it in then if it is installed the icon will appear in the dialog and when you hit okay the application will run. If you do not know the application name (why not?) the run dialog (or some versions of it at least) have an expander which opens to show a flat list of available applications. I cannot say about Debian but while using Ubuntu I did notice I sometimes applications do not appear in menus right after you install them but a logout and log back in usually sorts that out. I'm trying to think why you might need to search for these applications in the first place rather than choose from what is available in the menus. A package manager like Synaptic might be a good way to check what programs are installed, it also includes a search tool. > idea where to go to do a file search (they expected it to be in the > start menu, but gave up after they found it wasn't under applications). A file search is intended for documents and other user files If you are looking for programs you are not expected to use the file search. > so then they tried nautilus, but couldn't figure out where to go. they > dropped down to / where they were even more dumbfounded. a comment was > "what are all these directories and how am i supposed to find anything > in this mess." Not much change from Microsoft then. ;P > i suggested looking in /usr/local and /opt but both came up empty. If you have given up on the Desktop and had to resort to the command line then a good way to find things is using the "locate" utitlity. When hunting for programs the command "apropos" can be very useful too (especially on BSD where the man pages are better). > i suggested that they try the search under the gnome places menu, at > which point they were able to find some similarity to their > expectations. at first they used the defaults and only searched in > their home directory (inadvertently assuming that the file must not be > on the disk even though their search path was too limited), at which > point i said you should search from the / directory. they opened the > gnome file selector, and could not figure out how to pick / (in fact > they didn't understand the concept of /, or how it relates to something > like c:). i also didn't know how to select / directly from the gnome > file selector this, but eventually figured out if you select the topmost > directory breakout at the top of the file selector that you will get / > as your selection. this is very non-obvious and needs to be fixed. so > they tried their search, which completed *way* too fast for their > expectations (likely because they are used to windows searches taking > significant time to search an entire disk because file lists are not > cached as scrollkeeper does). so i did a "find / | grep fname" which > also came up empty to indicate to them that indeed the file they were > looking for was not on the system. > > at one point another comment was "it seems like they do things > differently just to be different," referring to the gnome desktop in > general vs windows. *cough* *cough* splutter! Understatement. Things have gotten better and are getting better all the time, file bugs where you see them. At least horrible anachronisms like the "Druid dialogs" are on the way out (that really was a case of being different from Wizards just for the sake of being different). Sincerely Alan Horkan Inkscape http://inkscape.org Abiword http://www.abisource.com Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/ From Calum.Benson@Sun.COM Tue Jun 13 12:08:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B31DC3B000A for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:08:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29211-06 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:08:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0934E3B000C for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:08:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-10.sun.com (d1-emea-10.sun.com [192.18.2.120] (may be forged)) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5DG73iU003213 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:07:03 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-10.sun.com by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0T00B013ET6M00@d1-emea-10.sun.com> (original mail from Calum.Benson@Sun.COM) for Usability@gnome.org; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:07:03 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([129.150.116.239]) by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0T00H9Z3FRHT70@d1-emea-10.sun.com>; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:07:03 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:06:57 +0100 From: Calum Benson Subject: Re: [Usability] Re: Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs In-reply-to: <17538.1149869665@olgas.newt.com> Sender: Calum.Benson@Sun.COM To: Bill Wohler Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <1149868755.7852.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <17538.1149869665@olgas.newt.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.582 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.582 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 16:08:13 -0000 On 9 Jun 2006, at 17:14, Bill Wohler wrote: > > Well, I tried C-PageUp/Down in the GtkTreeView widget (in GnuCash), > and > I have no idea what it's doing. In a tree view, Ctrl+PgUp/PgDn should be moving focus to the item at the top or bottom of the current view; in other controls, it's the shortcut for scrolling left/right: http://www.gnome.org/learn/access-guide/latest/keynav-23.html#keynav-35 If it's doing something else, it's either a bug, or it's been over- ridden by a developer who thinks they know better :) Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:calum.benson@sun.com Java Desktop System Team http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems From Calum.Benson@Sun.COM Wed Jun 14 13:26:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F32D3B0156 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 13:26:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26510-02 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 13:26:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60F1D3B0135 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 13:26:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-02.sun.com (d1-emea-02.sun.com [192.18.2.112] (may be forged)) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5EHPMb5010739 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 18:25:22 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-02.sun.com by d1-emea-02.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0V00K011HFZ600@d1-emea-02.sun.com> (original mail from Calum.Benson@Sun.COM) for Usability@gnome.org; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 18:25:22 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([129.150.116.135]) by d1-emea-02.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0V00FZN1Q9TE10@d1-emea-02.sun.com>; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 18:25:22 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 18:25:16 +0100 From: Calum Benson In-reply-to: <3515.1150215756@olgas.newt.com> Sender: Calum.Benson@Sun.COM To: Bill Wohler Message-id: <645F3922-742E-4B5E-8D69-37D56C69E503@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <1149868755.7852.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <17538.1149869665@olgas.newt.com> <3515.1150215756@olgas.newt.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.583 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.015, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.583 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 17:26:46 -0000 On 13 Jun 2006, at 17:22, Bill Wohler wrote: > Calum Benson wrote: > >> On 9 Jun 2006, at 17:14, Bill Wohler wrote: >>> >>> Well, I tried C-PageUp/Down in the GtkTreeView widget (in GnuCash), >>> and I have no idea what it's doing. >> >> In a tree view, Ctrl+PgUp/PgDn should be moving focus to the item at >> the top or bottom of the current view; in other controls, it's the >> shortcut for scrolling left/right: >> >> http://www.gnome.org/learn/access-guide/latest/ >> keynav-23.html#keynav-35 >> >> If it's doing something else, it's either a bug, or it's been over- >> ridden by a developer who thinks they know better :) > > Thanks, Calum. Well, that's not what I'm seeing. A GnuCash developer > told me that he wouldn't overwrite the GtkTreeView bindings to allow > C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs so it's unlikely that it has been > overridden. A puzzler indeed. I'll mention this to the developers. > > I still think that the HIG should specify C-PageUp/Down for moving > between tabs and that other widgets should not use this binding. I'd agree that this has been a bugbear long enough that we should probably try a bit harder to fix it properly. The controls that use Ctrl+PgUp/PgDn just to move focus could possibly just do without (by default, at least); you can always hit Ctrl+up/down a few times instead. The ones that use them for scrolling left/right might be trickier, but I'll need to try and put together a complete list before I try and figure something out. Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:calum.benson@sun.com Java Desktop System Team http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems From michael.s.gilbert@gmail.com Fri Jun 16 22:20:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D0D43B033A for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2006 22:20:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32034-02 for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2006 22:20:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.196]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC9A03B02DB for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2006 22:20:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id h29so524273wxd for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2006 19:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.52.10 with SMTP id z10mr4997505wxz; Fri, 16 Jun 2006 19:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.65.5 with HTTP; Fri, 16 Jun 2006 19:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <8e2a98be0606161919x9a20c7dld5fc3a4715960f2b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 22:19:21 -0400 From: "Michael Gilbert" To: horkana@maths.tcd.ie In-Reply-To: <8e2a98be0606161901j5c6edfdcj3acd734a2ee19751@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> <8e2a98be0606111426w7d6407fdj68c34573295b317@mail.gmail.com> <8e2a98be0606161901j5c6edfdcj3acd734a2ee19751@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 09:59:24 -0400 Cc: usability@gnome.org, 371882@bugs.debian.org Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 02:20:40 -0000 Alan Horkan wrote: >The run dialog can be useful in this case. If you know the application >name and type it in then if it is installed the icon will appear in the >dialog and when you hit okay the application will run. If you do not know >the application name (why not?) the run dialog (or some versions of it at >least) have an expander which opens to show a flat list of available >applications. The users were having trouble finding a "find files" application in the applications menu. The did not even attempt to find the program they were looking for in the applications menu. >A package manager like Synaptic might be a good way to check what programs >are installed, it also includes a search tool. Synaptic is a confusing mess. If I were a new user, I would totally avoid it. I still avoid it...but only because I apt-get is so much easier and direct. > A file search is intended for documents and other user files > If you are looking for programs you are not expected to use the file > search. I don't think we should be in the game of telling the user how she is to use her computer. We should be making it as intuitive and broadly useful for the user to user her computer. If she expects to search for executables or system files (due to her poor os upbringing) then it should be perfectly reasonable and obvious for her to do so. we should not be forcing anyone to learn the unix way (find and locate). well maybe it would be useful for the find dialog to say something like, this is what i'm doing 'find / 2>/dev/null | grep fname' click here to learn more about how to use the power of the unix shell to enhance your computing expertise. thanks you for your thoughts. mike From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Sun Jun 18 13:08:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A9E93B0BF5 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 13:08:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04550-02 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 13:08:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 128B53B00B2 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 13:08:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 18 Jun 2006 18:07:14 +0100 (BST) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 18:07:14 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <8e2a98be0606161919x9a20c7dld5fc3a4715960f2b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: References: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> <8e2a98be0606111426w7d6407fdj68c34573295b317@mail.gmail.com> <8e2a98be0606161901j5c6edfdcj3acd734a2ee19751@mail.gmail.com> <8e2a98be0606161919x9a20c7dld5fc3a4715960f2b@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 17:08:12 -0000 [Removed CC's.] On Fri, 16 Jun 2006, Michael Gilbert wrote: > Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 22:19:21 -0400 > From: Michael Gilbert > To: horkana@maths.tcd.ie > Cc: 371882@bugs.debian.org, usability@gnome.org > Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes > with gnome virgins" > > Alan Horkan wrote: > >The run dialog can be useful in this case. If you know the application > >name and type it in then if it is installed the icon will appear in the > >dialog and when you hit okay the application will run. If you do not know > >the application name (why not?) the run dialog (or some versions of it at > >least) have an expander which opens to show a flat list of available > >applications. > > The users were having trouble finding a "find files" application in > the applications menu. The did not even attempt to find the program > they were looking for in the applications menu. Accomodating users is one thing but it is difficult to help users who are unwilling to even look through the Applications menu. Having said that Novell have their own redesigned setup (which may already be available) which does in fact include a search widget directly in the main menu. Mockups can be seen here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/gamehack/sets/1506658/ > >A package manager like Synaptic might be a good way to check what programs > >are installed, it also includes a search tool. > > Synaptic is a confusing mess. I see you added Debian to the CC list, since Synaptic is a Debian only program not Gnome I will let them comment. > avoid it. I still avoid it...but only because I apt-get is so much > easier and direct. Ubuntu inlcude a simpler frontend to Synaptic which makes things easier for basic adding and removing of programs, you might want to try it. > > A file search is intended for documents and other user files > > > If you are looking for programs you are not expected to use the file > > search. > > I don't think we should be in the game of telling the user how she is > to use her computer. I dont disagree. I was describing how thing are and how best to work around them rather than the ideal situation. The _intention_ of the designers was that find tool would be for finding documents rather than programs. > We should be making it as intuitive and broadly useful for the user to > user her computer. If she expects to search for executables or system > files (due to her poor os upbringing) then it should be perfectly > reasonable and obvious for her to do so. we should not be forcing > anyone to learn the unix way (find and locate). Since you had already given up on the graphical user interface I was explaining how to get more out of the command line, I would not have mentioned it otherwise and I believe if a user feels like they "need" to user the command line the real issue is the Desktop needs to be improved. > well maybe it would be useful for the find dialog to say something like, > this is what i'm doing 'find / 2>/dev/null | grep fname' click here to It is good to try and find ways to reduce the learning curve of the command line but I'm not sure this idea would really work well as part of the graphical user interface. I do think it would be great to have a page in the documentation of the Find tool explaining or introducing the command line alternatives. > learn more about how to use the power of the unix shell to enhance your > computing expertise. > > thanks you for your thoughts. Sincerely Alan Horkan Inkscape http://inkscape.org Abiword http://www.abisource.com Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/ From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Mon Jun 19 02:45:53 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C6963B0D43 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 02:45:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28820-04 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 02:45:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.203]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3E4573B0DC0 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 02:45:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 55516 invoked by uid 60001); 19 Jun 2006 06:45:00 -0000 Message-ID: <20060619064500.55514.qmail@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.215.111.236] by web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 07:45:00 BST Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 07:45:00 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Alan Horkan In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.667 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.715, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.667 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 06:45:53 -0000 --- Alan Horkan wrote: > It is good to try and find ways to reduce the > learning curve of the > command line but I'm not sure this idea would really > work well as part of > the graphical user interface. I do think it would > be great to have a page > in the documentation of the Find tool explaining or > introducing the > command line alternatives. I think the find tool docs briefly mention which unix commands are used behind the GUI. However, is the find tool made redundant by the new Nautilus searching? And if not, how are the two meant to work together? ___________________________________________________________ Try the all-new Yahoo! Mail. "The New Version is radically easier to use" – The Wall Street Journal http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Mon Jun 19 18:53:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC2903B02BD for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 18:53:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05746-09 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 18:53:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 653113B0105 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 18:53:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 19 Jun 2006 23:51:42 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 23:51:41 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20060619064500.55514.qmail@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: References: <20060619064500.55514.qmail@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:53:07 -0000 On Mon, 19 Jun 2006, Joachim Noreiko wrote: > > be great to have a page > > in the documentation of the Find tool explaining or > > introducing the > > command line alternatives. > > I think the find tool docs briefly mention which unix > commands are used behind the GUI. good to know > However, is the find tool made redundant by the new > Nautilus searching? And if not, how are the two meant > to work together? I doubt it. I'd expect the find tool to include more advanced options and for the built in tool to keep it simple. There might also be issues with the underlying technologies (Beagle?). I don't know for sure. -- Alan H. From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Tue Jun 20 03:34:38 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81B703B027D for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 03:34:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32616-04 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 03:34:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.202]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AA7EC3B0279 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 03:34:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 32953 invoked by uid 60001); 20 Jun 2006 07:33:12 -0000 Message-ID: <20060620073312.32951.qmail@web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.203.12.149] by web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:33:12 BST Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:33:12 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Alan Horkan In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.471 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.519, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.471 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: [Usability] Two types of find (Was: search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins") X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 07:34:38 -0000 --- Alan Horkan wrote: > > > However, is the find tool made redundant by the > new > > Nautilus searching? And if not, how are the two > meant > > to work together? > > I doubt it. I'd expect the find tool to include > more advanced options and > for the built in tool to keep it simple. There > might also be issues > with the underlying technologies (Beagle?). I don't > know for sure. Sure, I can see that operationally there are reasons to have both tool. But with our user hats on for a second -- why are there two find tools, accessed in different ways, with different-looking interfaces? It's confusing, and doesn't give off the joined-up feel that GNOME should have. So -- how can we join them up? ___________________________________________________________ The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html From mystilleef@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:03:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1667E3B058E for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:03:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10655-07 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:03:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.173]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D3AD3B0584 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:03:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id o2so3184611uge for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:03:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.67.103.7 with SMTP id f7mr3463065ugm; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:03:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.15 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:03:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:03:43 -0400 From: Mystilleef To: Usability@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.647 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.605, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.558, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.647 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:03:48 -0000 Hello, My application is a GUI designed especially for GNOME. Thus, when my application is launched, I register it with the GNOME libraries and then instruct the kernel to create a separate process for the application. The procedure is called forking. The effect of this is that when my application is launched from a shell terminal, the kernel detaches it from the shell terminal's process, therefore making the application run in its own process. Apparently, this has offended some geeks who argue I am breaking some pointless UNIX convention. Their argument is that most (GNOME) applications do not detach from the shell terminal when run from it. And by detaching from the terminal, not only am I creating inconsistencies, but also creating an element of surprise. My response is that this behavior is a hold back from the days when UNIX had no GUI and when almost all applications that ran on it were console applications. The only environment a console application can run in is in a shell environment. That is why console applications have every right to "hug" the shell terminal. Also blocking the shell terminal is the only way console applications can recieve input from users. Graphic user applications, especially the ones designed for "desktop environments" have virtually no reason to be bound to a shell terminal's process. In particular, the only environment a GNOME application should be bound to is the GNOME desktop environment. And I believe you do that by registering with the GNOME and/or freedesktop libraries. In fact, I argue it is bad practice for GUI applications to be bound to a shell terminals process because if the terminal's process dies for any reason the application(s) bound to that terminal dies along with it. In my early linux years, I have lost documents this way. I launched several via the shell terminal, and then I forgetfully or accidentally close the shell terminal's window. Miraculously, all my applications disappear. Also, most graphic user applications are not console applications and as such the life-cycle of such applications should not be determined or controlled or constrained by shell terminal's process running in the sight of users that can easily be killed accidentally or otherwise. The geeks' counter responses ranged from questioning my competence as a shell terminal user, to suggestions to reconfigure my shell properties, to changing my shell environment, to connecting my application to the kernel's KILL signal so it can save its state before dying, among several funny comments. In fact, there's only one reason to provide an option for not detaching. Some console applications may need to pipe their result to my application. And my application needs to be connected to the shell's process for that to be happen successfully. There are many other silly UNIX conventions that are a hold back from yesteryears which bite us in the behind today. I recommend the "UNIX Haters Handbook" for an exhaustive listing. Yet many people religiously clinge to them without reason. I feel this issue is one them. Is it advisable to encourage developers via the HIG to avoid hugging the terminal. I mean, apart from the fact that it is just pointless especially for GUI apps, there's also the possibility of losing applications bound to the terminal's process when the terminal quits for whatever reasons. And why on earth would anyone want to bind a GUI app to the process of another user visible application? I bring this up here because the geeks say I am trying to "fix" the problem the wrong way. They insist that the problem, if at all it is one should be "fixed" at a global level outside my application. I'm guessing perhaps at a library level. So, I welcome your comments and thought on the issue. My opinion is that the default behavior for GUI applications, GNOME in particular, is to detach from the shell terminal, while an option to prevent detachment should be provided for those who need it. A positive side effect of my suggestion is that it frees the terminal to be used by other applications designed for terminal usage. Cheers From mike@mike-burns.com Tue Jun 20 16:18:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C7FF3B0073 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:18:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11690-09 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:18:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mike-burns.com (mike-burns.com [64.105.111.66]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D9DC3B03DC for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:18:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mike by mike-burns.com with local (Exim 4.61 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1FsmgE-000I4J-6W; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:18:34 -0400 Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:18:34 -0400 From: Mike Burns To: Mystilleef Message-ID: <20060620201834.GA68180@gaping.mike-burns.com> Mail-Followup-To: Mystilleef , Usability@gnome.org References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:18:47 -0000 On 2006-06-20 16.03.43 -0400, Mystilleef wrote: > Graphic user applications, especially the ones designed for "desktop > environments" have virtually no reason to be bound to a shell terminal's > process. How many users who run the program in question run it from the terminal instead of the applications menu, panel, Alt+F2, or a hotkey? How many who run it from the terminal aren't shell experts who know about stuff like '&'? -- Mike Burns mike@mike-burns.com http://mike-burns.com From mystilleef@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:32:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E672F3B00B7 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:32:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12123-10 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:32:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.203]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59AB63B0155 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:32:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id t12so532169wxc for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.126.15 with SMTP id y15mr11029362wxc; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:32:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.15 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:32:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9605403b0606201332r169394a3mdad3a6a12da9115f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:32:14 -0400 From: Mystilleef To: Mystilleef , Usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20060620201834.GA68180@gaping.mike-burns.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <20060620201834.GA68180@gaping.mike-burns.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.256 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.344, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.256 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:32:18 -0000 I can't really say how many users run it from the terminal or from the menu. But it seems a few do run it from the terminal. Of course, on UNIX -like systems it is not uncommon to run applications from the terminal. And depending on your shell environment "&" does not detach applications from the shell's process. Apparently, for BASH, there is "disown" command for that. But I don't believe proficiency in BASH or shell wizardry should be a requirement for using applications designed for GNOME. On 6/20/06, Mike Burns wrote: > On 2006-06-20 16.03.43 -0400, Mystilleef wrote: > > Graphic user applications, especially the ones designed for "desktop > > environments" have virtually no reason to be bound to a shell terminal's > > process. > > How many users who run the program in question run it from the terminal > instead of the applications menu, panel, Alt+F2, or a hotkey? How many who > run it from the terminal aren't shell experts who know about stuff like '&'? > > -- > Mike Burns mike@mike-burns.com http://mike-burns.com > From alleykat@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:34:14 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A4B23B00B7 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:34:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12708-01 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:34:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.206]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A35193B009C for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:34:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 9so2684307nzo for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.12.45 with SMTP id p45mr9469143nzi; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.252.20 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:34:11 -0500 From: "Travis Watkins" To: Mystilleef In-Reply-To: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.379 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.221, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.379 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:34:14 -0000 On 6/20/06, Mystilleef wrote: > Graphic user applications, especially the ones designed for "desktop > environments" have virtually no reason to be bound to a shell terminal's > process. How are we supposed to get the debug output from those GNOME libraries you use? -- Travis Watkins http://www.realistanew.com From mystilleef@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:41:17 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BA943B0280 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:41:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13017-03 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:41:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.201]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEA573B01AF for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:41:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id h29so1020572wxd for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.52.10 with SMTP id z10mr11092861wxz; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:41:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.15 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:41:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9605403b0606201341w12b56135o2b6da3fd50709fa9@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:41:10 -0400 From: Mystilleef To: Usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <9605403b0606201339k12f232dfl57e73b92b2ee2cf5@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <9605403b0606201339k12f232dfl57e73b92b2ee2cf5@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.331 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.269, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.331 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Usability] Fwd: GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:41:17 -0000 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Mystilleef Date: Jun 20, 2006 4:39 PM Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment To: Travis Watkins On 6/20/06, Travis Watkins wrote: > On 6/20/06, Mystilleef wrote: > > Graphic user applications, especially the ones designed for "desktop > > environments" have virtually no reason to be bound to a shell terminal's > > process. > > How are we supposed to get the debug output from those GNOME libraries you use? > > -- > Travis Watkins > http://www.realistanew.com > You can print to stderr, which will display the debug output in the terminal the application was launched in, or you can print to a log file. Or maybe I didn't understand the question well enough? From mystilleef@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:45:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 130903B041C for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:45:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13208-05 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:45:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.198]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFC9C3B041A for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:45:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id t12so100wxc for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.24.3 with SMTP id 3mr11074250wxx; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.15 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9605403b0606201344s4adf74d5l893e43b608b993ba@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:44:52 -0400 From: Mystilleef To: "Travis Watkins" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <9605403b0606201339k12f232dfl57e73b92b2ee2cf5@mail.gmail.com> <9605403b0606201341w12b56135o2b6da3fd50709fa9@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.384 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.216, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.384 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Fwd: GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:45:20 -0000 On 6/20/06, Travis Watkins wrote: > On 6/20/06, Mystilleef wrote: > > You can print to stderr, which will display the debug output in the > > terminal the application was launched in, or you can print to a log > > file. Or maybe I didn't understand the question well enough? > > If you've separated from the terminal does outputting to stderr still > send output to said terminal? > > -- > Travis Watkins > http://www.realistanew.com > Yes, it does. From alleykat@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:50:05 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 374563B053D for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:50:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13567-03 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.195]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59FD03B04FC for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 16so1448nzp for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:50:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.91.2 with SMTP id o2mr3791224nzb; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:43:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.252.20 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:43:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:43:55 -0500 From: "Travis Watkins" To: Mystilleef In-Reply-To: <9605403b0606201341w12b56135o2b6da3fd50709fa9@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <9605403b0606201339k12f232dfl57e73b92b2ee2cf5@mail.gmail.com> <9605403b0606201341w12b56135o2b6da3fd50709fa9@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.384 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.216, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.384 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Fwd: GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:50:05 -0000 On 6/20/06, Mystilleef wrote: > You can print to stderr, which will display the debug output in the > terminal the application was launched in, or you can print to a log > file. Or maybe I didn't understand the question well enough? If you've separated from the terminal does outputting to stderr still send output to said terminal? -- Travis Watkins http://www.realistanew.com From ross@burtonini.com Wed Jun 21 04:29:05 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A27E93B0821 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:29:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21500-06 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:28:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65EB43B002A for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:28:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from burtonini.com (althur.gotadsl.co.uk [84.12.135.175]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBDB028C6D7; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:28:40 +0100 (BST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (ident=unknown) by burtonini.com with esmtp (masqmail 0.2.21) id 1Fsy4m-51o-00; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:28:40 +0100 From: Ross Burton To: Mystilleef In-Reply-To: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-hHw0K+ovPQXh+ENRGLBc" Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:28:40 +0100 Message-Id: <1150878520.12957.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.457 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.457 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:29:05 -0000 --=-hHw0K+ovPQXh+ENRGLBc Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 2006-06-20 at 16:03 -0400, Mystilleef wrote: > My application is a GUI designed especially for GNOME. Thus, when my > application is launched, I register it with the GNOME libraries and then > instruct the kernel to create a separate process for the application. > The procedure is called forking. The effect of this is that when my > application is launched from a shell terminal, the kernel detaches it > from the shell terminal's process, therefore making the application run > in its own process. There are plenty of situations where this behaviour is exactly not what I want, and not forking doesn't hurt anyone. The panel, run dialog and so on spawn processes so they are not bound to anything (you can demonstrate this by running a program from the panel and then killing the panel). Primary use case for not forking is that it makes it trivial to write a script that launches a program, user does something in it, and then the script can continue when the program has exited. If Gedit forked when it started I wouldn't be able to use it as $EDITOR in cvs commit for example. Why break this use case because you think that forking is useful, when to the average user there is no difference and to the terminal-using folks not forking is very useful at times. Yes, if you start a number of not-forking processes from a terminal and then close the terminal without disowning them they will also die. Luckily the users who will start a program from a terminal are advanced enough to know that happens[1]. Ross [1] In other news this week was the first time I got a bug report from a Sound Juicer user who when I asked "run SJ in a terminal and paste the output" asked "what's a terminal?". Yay non-geek users! --=20 Ross Burton mail: ross@burtonini.com jabber: ross@burtonini.com www: http://www.burtonini.com./ PGP Fingerprint: 1A21 F5B0 D8D0 CFE3 81D4 E25A 2D09 E447 D0B4 33DF --=-hHw0K+ovPQXh+ENRGLBc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEmQM3LQnkR9C0M98RAjA/AJ48sqixMzGp90lHwkoSZEEzzHYr0wCfaOyk 8c218P3Pjd0fJjEh3Od2p0s= =F/45 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-hHw0K+ovPQXh+ENRGLBc-- From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Wed Jun 21 04:49:23 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67FE13B07CA for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:49:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22910-06 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:49:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.203]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4F3AD3B04EA for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:49:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 38857 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Jun 2006 08:49:21 -0000 Message-ID: <20060621084921.38855.qmail@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.141.171.15] by web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:49:21 BST Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:49:21 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Ross Burton , Mystilleef In-Reply-To: <1150878520.12957.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.538 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.586, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.538 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:49:23 -0000 --- Ross Burton wrote: > Primary use case for not forking is that it makes it > trivial to write a > script that launches a program, user does something > in it, and then the > script can continue when the program has exited. If > Gedit forked when > it started I wouldn't be able to use it as $EDITOR > in cvs commit for > example. That's interesting! Would you care to add a brief note on how to do that to the wiki, perhaps on http://live.gnome.org/Sysadmin/CVS/FAQ ? > > [1] In other news this week was the first time I got > a bug report from a > Sound Juicer user who when I asked "run SJ in a > terminal and paste the > output" asked "what's a terminal?". Yay non-geek > users! Yay indeed! (Original poster wrote:) > There are many other silly UNIX conventions that are a hold back from yesteryears which bite us in the behind today. Absolutely. I keep finding some of these, filing bugs in my ignorance, and then getting told it's meant to be the way it is. We need to look at these legacy issues, because there are simply a pain to non-geek users, and non-geek contributors too. ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From nudrema@gmail.com Wed Jun 21 04:49:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 233453B04EF for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:49:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22840-07 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:49:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp40.mobistarmail.be (smtp40.mobistarmail.be [193.252.23.61]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 123723B0AF9 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:49:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.103] (unknown [212.224.134.45]) by mwinf4016.mobistarmail.be (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id AA8337000085 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 10:49:25 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060621084925698.AA8337000085@mwinf4016.mobistarmail.be Message-ID: <44990812.3040603@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 10:49:22 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Steve_Fr=E9cinaux?= User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <1150878520.12957.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <1150878520.12957.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.973 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.443, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_NEUTRAL=1.069] X-Spam-Score: -1.973 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:49:41 -0000 Ross Burton wrote: > Primary use case for not forking is that it makes it trivial to write a > script that launches a program, user does something in it, and then the > script can continue when the program has exited. If Gedit forked when > it started I wouldn't be able to use it as $EDITOR in cvs commit for > example. Well, in fact you can't now, because of a bug due to the single instance stuff (ie it's not blocking when you already have an instance of gedit). This might be solved by adding a --wait option or such for these case, but it's not done yet. From sberry@cyberspace.org Mon Jun 19 22:04:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C66503B01F6 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:04:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16941-07 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:04:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from grex.cyberspace.org (grex.cyberspace.org [216.86.77.194]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC98B3B0D79 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:04:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sberry by grex.cyberspace.org with local (Exim 4.54) id 1FsVan-0006sA-5J for usability@gnome.org; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:03:49 -0400 Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:03:49 -0400 From: David To: usability@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2i Sender: David X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.537 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.062, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.537 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 11:02:14 -0400 Subject: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 02:04:48 -0000 Dear All, I am not sure if you have seen this article (apparently it appeared on SlashDot). http://chabada.sk/better-desktop/ The reason I am mentioning it on the usability list is that he has many ideas for the utilisation of pop-up dialogues that appear not to be too intrusive. The idea of mail new message preview is a large usability gap, due to the time it takes users to switch back and forth between the app they are using and Evolution to determine if a message is improtant or not and the interruption to workflow this entails. Progress notifications, information about multimedia codecs and automatic music pause would all lead to a more intuitive systemi. The comments about displaying more relevant data in Nautilus are also worth taking on board. All in all, these are some of the best practical suggestions I have seen for a long time. I hope they provide deveopers and usability experts with food for thought. Thanks, Sarah From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Wed Jun 21 12:17:06 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB7C43B0FCB for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:17:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20270-09 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:17:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.206]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1A1503B0FE5 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:17:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 64620 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Jun 2006 16:17:02 -0000 Message-ID: <20060621161702.64618.qmail@web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.215.5.26] by web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:17:02 BST Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:17:02 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: David , usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.669 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.717, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.669 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:17:06 -0000 --- David wrote: > Dear All, > > I am not sure if you have seen this article > (apparently it appeared on SlashDot). > http://chabada.sk/better-desktop/ > > The reason I am mentioning it on the usability list > is that he has many ideas for the utilisation of > pop-up dialogues that appear not to be too > intrusive. The idea of mail new message preview is > a large usability gap, due to the time it takes > users to switch back and forth between the app they > are using and Evolution to determine if a message is > improtant or not and the interruption to workflow > this entails. Have you seen Growl for OS X? There is also a page on our wiki about redesigning the notification area. > > The comments about displaying more relevant data in > Nautilus are also worth taking on board. I do not underestand why Nautilus ties up two totally different concepts in its zoom function: icon size and amount of information displayed. If anything, the reverse would make more sense: icons smaller when there is more text in the label. I filed a bug about this but I don't think I explained it properly, as it has been ignored/ ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Wed Jun 21 12:49:44 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 617AA3B00AE for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:49:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22459-04 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:49:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C9A833B10DE for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:48:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 21 Jun 2006 17:47:39 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:47:39 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan To: sberry@grex.cyberspace.org In-Reply-To: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> Message-ID: References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:49:45 -0000 On Mon, 19 Jun 2006, David wrote: > Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:03:49 -0400 > From: David > To: usability@gnome.org > Subject: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions > > Dear All, > > I am not sure if you have seen this article (apparently it appeared on > SlashDot). http://chabada.sk/better-desktop/ I've seen it but I'm not sure it was discussed here on this list. I probably read about it on OSNews http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=14152 A lot of the suggestions could be dealt with directly by filing bug reports and feature requests and I think a few may have been filed already by the author. > Progress notifications, information about multimedia codecs and We really want to encourage people to use free and open formats and avoid vendor lock in problem which in the long run is a far worse problem. It might even be good idea to offer to transcode files to better formats before offering to install codecs for encumbered proprietary formats. Part of this "problem" is up to distributions and what they choose to include. Gnome doesn't include proprietary codecs and this stance is unlikely to change but some distributions do add them back in and give users what they think they want. Another part of it is education, to try and make sure users understand we cannot play formats such as MP3 out of the box due to legal hazards. Much as we might like to ignore the issue and give users what they want we cannot afford to as it will not go away and will only get worse. Fluendo and gstreamer do seem to be working at making it easier to install 3rd party codecs but we cannot achieve the ideal ease of use and without undermining other goals. > automatic music pause would all lead to a more intuitive systemi. the notion of pausing music has been discussed before, I dont recall if there was any conclusion or ideas on how best to go about implementing it. > The comments about displaying more relevant data in Nautilus are also > worth taking on board. I think the author may have posted those directly to the nautilus list. Sincerely Alan Horkan Inkscape http://inkscape.org Abiword http://www.abisource.com Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/ From thejello@gmail.com Wed Jun 21 14:37:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9858F3B014E for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:37:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29199-05 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:37:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.183]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 705803B0084 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:37:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id x66so48839pye for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 11:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.134.12 with SMTP id l12mr136441pyn; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 11:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.124.18 with HTTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 11:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4d9c6c340606211137p39290216x864bd61275aec52@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:37:08 -0400 From: "Simon Francis" To: "Alan Horkan" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_5466_4641605.1150915028419" References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.129 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.470, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.129 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org, sberry@grex.cyberspace.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 18:37:12 -0000 ------=_Part_5466_4641605.1150915028419 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Why does Gnome open non-free document formats that have related patents (Word, Excel, etc) but not multimedia files? I would consider it essential for a modern desktop to open either and a major barrier to adoption. On 6/21/06, Alan Horkan wrote: > > > On Mon, 19 Jun 2006, David wrote: > > > Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:03:49 -0400 > > From: David > > To: usability@gnome.org > > Subject: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions > > > > Dear All, > > > > I am not sure if you have seen this article (apparently it appeared on > > SlashDot). http://chabada.sk/better-desktop/ > > I've seen it but I'm not sure it was discussed here on this list. > > I probably read about it on OSNews > http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=14152 > > A lot of the suggestions could be dealt with directly by filing bug > reports and feature requests and I think a few may have been filed already > by the author. > > > Progress notifications, information about multimedia codecs and > > We really want to encourage people to use free and open formats and avoid > vendor lock in problem which in the long run is a far worse problem. It > might even be good idea to offer to transcode files to better formats > before offering to install codecs for encumbered proprietary formats. > > Part of this "problem" is up to distributions and what they choose to > include. Gnome doesn't include proprietary codecs and this stance is > unlikely to change but some distributions do add them back in and give > users what they think they want. > > Another part of it is education, to try and make sure users understand we > cannot play formats such as MP3 out of the box due to legal hazards. > Much as we might like to ignore the issue and give users what they want we > cannot afford to as it will not go away and will only get worse. > > Fluendo and gstreamer do seem to be working at making it easier to install > 3rd party codecs but we cannot achieve the ideal ease of use and without > undermining other goals. > > > automatic music pause would all lead to a more intuitive systemi. > > the notion of pausing music has been discussed before, I dont recall if > there was any conclusion or ideas on how best to go about implementing it. > > > The comments about displaying more relevant data in Nautilus are also > > worth taking on board. > > I think the author may have posted those directly to the nautilus list. > > Sincerely > > Alan Horkan > > Inkscape http://inkscape.org > Abiword http://www.abisource.com > Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org > > Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Usability mailing list > Usability@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability > ------=_Part_5466_4641605.1150915028419 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Why does Gnome open non-free document formats that have related patents (Word, Excel, etc) but not multimedia files? I would consider it essential for a modern desktop to open either and a major barrier to adoption.

On 6/21/06, Alan Horkan <horkana@maths.tcd.ie> wrote:

On Mon, 19 Jun 2006, David wrote:

> Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:03:49 -0400
> From: David <sberry@grex.cyberspace.org>
> To: usability@gnome.org
> Subject: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions
>
> Dear All,
>
> I am not sure if you have seen this article (apparently it appeared on
> SlashDot). http://chabada.sk/better-desktop/

I've seen it but I'm not sure it was discussed here on this list.

I probably read about it on OSNews
http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=14152

A lot of the suggestions could be dealt with directly by filing bug
reports and feature requests and I think a few may have been filed already
by the author.

> Progress notifications, information about multimedia codecs and

We really want to encourage people to use free and open formats and avoid
vendor lock in problem which in the long run is a far worse problem.  It
might even be good idea to offer to transcode files to better formats
before offering to install codecs for encumbered proprietary formats.

Part of this "problem" is up to distributions and what they choose to
include.  Gnome doesn't include proprietary codecs and this stance is
unlikely to change but some distributions do add them back in and give
users what they think they want.

Another part of it is education, to try and make sure users understand we
cannot play formats such as MP3 out of the box due to legal hazards.
Much as we might like to ignore the issue and give users what they want we
cannot afford to as it will not go away and will only get worse.

Fluendo and gstreamer do seem to be working at making it easier to install
3rd party codecs but we cannot achieve the ideal ease of use and without
undermining other goals.

> automatic music pause would all lead to a more intuitive systemi.

the notion of pausing music has been discussed before, I dont recall if
there was any conclusion or ideas on how best to go about implementing it.

> The comments about displaying more relevant data in Nautilus are also
> worth taking on board.

I think the author may have posted those directly to the nautilus list.

Sincerely

Alan Horkan

Inkscape http://inkscape.org
Abiword http://www.abisource.com
Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org

Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/



_______________________________________________
Usability mailing list
Usability@gnome.org
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability

------=_Part_5466_4641605.1150915028419-- From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Wed Jun 21 16:21:38 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 456063B05BB for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:21:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03268-09 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:21:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BE8643B05C0 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:21:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 21 Jun 2006 21:21:33 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 21:21:33 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <4d9c6c340606211137p39290216x864bd61275aec52@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> <4d9c6c340606211137p39290216x864bd61275aec52@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 20:21:38 -0000 On Wed, 21 Jun 2006, Simon Francis wrote: > Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:37:08 -0400 > From: Simon Francis > To: Alan Horkan > Cc: sberry@grex.cyberspace.org, usability@gnome.org > Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions > > Why does Gnome open non-free document formats that have related patents > (Word, Excel, etc) but not multimedia files? Techincally (and I apologise for the pedantry) Abiword and Gnumeric or Openoffice are the ones opening those formats not "GNOME" (although they are part or the wider Gnome community). More importantly the older office document formats have quite the same patent threats looming over them as the newer video formats do and they could be clean room reverse engineered but patents on video formats remain a threat even if the decoders are completely new code. > I would consider it essential for a modern desktop to open either and a > major barrier to adoption. The develolpers are not going to lock themselves out of their own desktop by using proprietary formats. If distributions choose to include additional codecs that is up to them. Other operating systems do not support certain formats out of the box. This is not directly a Gnome issue, and it is more a packaging and installation issue than a usability or mulitmedia issue. I am sure Gstreamer will continue to try and make it easier to install third part codecs but it is a nasty problem since the root of it is the politics of software patents. I understand your points and I do sort of agree with you (most likely I will choose a distribution which includes the codecs, or maybe install them myself but try to use unencumbered formats where possible) and I am only trying to present the problem as best I understand it. -- Alan From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Wed Jun 21 17:26:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B9A03B0153 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:26:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07094-01 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:26:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.206]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4366F3B0005 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:26:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 98624 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Jun 2006 21:26:49 -0000 Message-ID: <20060621212649.98622.qmail@web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.188.165.84] by web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 22:26:49 BST Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 22:26:49 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Alan Horkan , sberry@grex.cyberspace.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.653 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.701, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.653 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 21:26:51 -0000 --- Alan Horkan wrote: > Another part of it is education, to try and make > sure users understand we > cannot play formats such as MP3 out of the box due > to legal hazards. > Much as we might like to ignore the issue and give > users what they want we > cannot afford to as it will not go away and will > only get worse. Then let's educate the users! Try to open an MP3 file in Nautilus, and you get a 'application could not be found' message, which is unhelpful and untrue. Replace that with something that says why the MP3 can't be played. ___________________________________________________________ The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html From ross@burtonini.com Thu Jun 22 06:19:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9248D3B0389 for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 06:19:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15587-05 for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 06:19:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 651A03B042A for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 06:19:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from burtonini.com (althur.gotadsl.co.uk [84.12.135.175]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D3F029BC37; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 11:14:54 +0100 (BST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (ident=unknown) by burtonini.com with esmtp (masqmail 0.2.21) id 1Ft3Ca-331-00; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:57:04 +0100 From: Ross Burton To: Steve =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9cinaux?= In-Reply-To: <44990812.3040603@gmail.com> References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <1150878520.12957.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <44990812.3040603@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-GS5gCILk9mi/7eC2n045" Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:57:04 +0100 Message-Id: <1150898224.7820.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.833 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.616, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_12_24=1.247, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -1.833 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 10:19:18 -0000 --=-GS5gCILk9mi/7eC2n045 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 2006-06-21 at 10:49 +0200, Steve Fr=C3=A9cinaux wrote: > Ross Burton wrote: >=20 > > Primary use case for not forking is that it makes it trivial to write a > > script that launches a program, user does something in it, and then the > > script can continue when the program has exited. If Gedit forked when > > it started I wouldn't be able to use it as $EDITOR in cvs commit for > > example. >=20 > Well, in fact you can't now, because of a bug due to the single instance > stuff (ie it's not blocking when you already have an instance of gedit). >=20 > This might be solved by adding a --wait option or such for these case, > but it's not done yet. Never let reality get in the way of a good example, that's what I say. Yes, the single-instance stuff needs a --wait or something. In fact I'll add this to the single-instance SoC project wiki page. Ross --=20 Ross Burton mail: ross@burtonini.com jabber: ross@burtonini.com www: http://www.burtonini.com./ PGP Fingerprint: 1A21 F5B0 D8D0 CFE3 81D4 E25A 2D09 E447 D0B4 33DF --=-GS5gCILk9mi/7eC2n045 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEmVAwLQnkR9C0M98RAjj/AJkBwL8X5gXuowk+mivKV7xgBtxiYQCggIe4 2AiH4/XMuAfyJXaHvh10+DM= =rEto -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-GS5gCILk9mi/7eC2n045-- From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Fri Jun 23 03:30:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97FAB3B018A for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 03:30:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22794-06 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 03:30:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32406.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32406.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.199]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AD4CA3B00ED for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 03:30:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 90963 invoked by uid 60001); 23 Jun 2006 07:30:56 -0000 Message-ID: <20060623073056.90961.qmail@web32406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.214.29.119] by web32406.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 08:30:56 BST Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 08:30:56 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Michael Knepher , Gnome usability In-Reply-To: <19425c310606221428w62bc6e6ey19dd5c892a7e4176@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.56 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.608, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.56 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 07:30:57 -0000 --- Michael Knepher wrote: > On 6/21/06, Joachim Noreiko > wrote: > > > > --- Alan Horkan wrote: > > > > > Another part of it is education, to try and make > > > sure users understand we > > > cannot play formats such as MP3 out of the box > due > > > to legal hazards. > > > > Then let's educate the users! > > > > Try to open an MP3 file in Nautilus, and you get a > > 'application could not be found' message, which is > > unhelpful and untrue. > > Replace that with something that says why the MP3 > > can't be played. > > Isn't that the generic message that appears when > trying to open *any* > file type that doesn't have an application > registered to that > mime-type? Why should nautilus have a hard-coded > exception for any > file-type? Having a support page with information or > links to further > information about various filetypes and what > applications can > open/play/edit/hang out with them would seem to be a > better idea. > Today it may be mp3, but tomorrow it's likely to be > some other format, > and even today mp3 is far from the only > unsupported-out-of-the-box > file format for most distributions. Opening a support page when the user tries to open an MP3 file would be fine too. Basically, something needs to happen beyond the default message so the user doesn't simply think "This linux is rubbish -- it doesn't even know what an MP3 file is!" And yes, we could widen the idea, so anytime the user tries to open a file for which there's currently no application, she can go to find out more about what to do next. Eg, try to open an SVG file, and the helpfile you're pointed to will suggest Inkscape. ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From kbridger@shaw.ca Sat Jun 24 15:16:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B07543B00A5 for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 15:16:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31701-10 for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 15:16:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pd2mo2so.prod.shaw.ca (shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net [24.71.223.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2AF63B01B1 for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 15:16:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pd2mr7so.prod.shaw.ca (pd2mr7so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.10]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1D00MELPIRZW10@l-daemon> for usability@gnome.org; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 13:16:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml9so.prod.shaw.ca ([10.0.121.7]) by pd2mr7so.prod.shaw.ca (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1D00L5ZPIRYC00@pd2mr7so.prod.shaw.ca> for usability@gnome.org; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 13:16:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from spontaneity.thebside.ca ([70.70.211.21]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1D00HLCPIQVQG0@l-daemon> for usability@gnome.org; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 13:16:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.0.10] (westley [192.168.0.10]) by spontaneity.thebside.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0D6A1014; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 12:16:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 12:16:01 -0700 From: Kirk Bridger In-reply-to: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> To: David Message-id: <449D8F71.1060304@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.366 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.809, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST=1.708, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.366 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 19:16:56 -0000 His site seems down, but looking through Google's cache I have a comment: Renaming file extensions causes file type change: I don't like the way Windows uses file extensions to determine filetype. I think it is much more useful to have the system figure out what filetype it is. Windows ended up providing users with a means of hiding file extensions and we all know how that turned out. I love being able to send a .exe file through my exchange server's filter simply by renaming it .txt. Changing types though could be useful - I use nautilus's script to resize images for example. Being able to do that in the properties or by right-clicking is an interesting idea. I suppose the same could be done for filetypes as well, to a limited extent. I'm not sure if there is a frequently used use case there or not though. Kirk David wrote: > Dear All, > > I am not sure if you have seen this article (apparently it appeared on SlashDot). > http://chabada.sk/better-desktop/ > > The reason I am mentioning it on the usability list is that he has many ideas for the utilisation of pop-up dialogues that appear not to be too intrusive. The idea of mail new message preview is a large usability gap, due to the time it takes users to switch back and forth between the app they are using and Evolution to determine if a message is improtant or not and the interruption to workflow this entails. > > Progress notifications, information about multimedia codecs and automatic music pause would all lead to a more intuitive systemi. > > The comments about displaying more relevant data in Nautilus are also worth taking on board. > > All in all, these are some of the best practical suggestions I have seen for a long time. I hope they provide deveopers and usability experts with food for thought. > > Thanks, > > Sarah > _______________________________________________ > Usability mailing list > Usability@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability > From mpt@myrealbox.com Sun Jun 25 01:21:37 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40CD73B02A2 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 01:21:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17670-06 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 01:21:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from leucothea.redline.site5.com (leucothea.redline.site5.com [216.118.97.161]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E57D3B0079 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 01:21:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 203-173-178-53.bliink.ihug.co.nz ([203.173.178.53] helo=[10.1.1.5]) by leucothea.redline.site5.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.52) id 1FuN3O-0005nO-Se; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 01:21:03 -0400 In-Reply-To: <449D8F71.1060304@shaw.ca> References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> <449D8F71.1060304@shaw.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <6b768541cf85cb7ade2a7217c3faffd4@myrealbox.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Matthew Paul Thomas Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:21:12 +1200 To: Gnome usability X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.623) X-Antivirus-Scanner: This message has been scanned by ClamAV. X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - leucothea.redline.site5.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnome.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - myrealbox.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.499 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.499 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 05:21:37 -0000 On Jun 25, 2006, at 7:16 AM, Kirk Bridger wrote: > ... > I don't like the way Windows uses file extensions to determine > filetype. I think it is much more useful to have the system figure > out what filetype it is. Windows ended up providing users with a > means of hiding file extensions and we all know how that turned out. > I love being able to send a .exe file through my exchange server's > filter simply by renaming it .txt. > ... The converse of that is the friend of mine who renamed something.bmp to something.gif and wondered why it didn't get converted. (And that was without even being exposed to the Gimp, which has a Save dialog encouraging such confusion.) -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Sun Jun 25 05:29:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FA973B0079 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 05:29:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07670-03 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 05:29:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B8F243B013D for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 05:29:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 25 Jun 2006 10:28:36 +0100 (BST) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:28:36 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: Gnome usability In-Reply-To: <6b768541cf85cb7ade2a7217c3faffd4@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> <449D8F71.1060304@shaw.ca> <6b768541cf85cb7ade2a7217c3faffd4@myrealbox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 09:29:34 -0000 On Sun, 25 Jun 2006, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:21:12 +1200 > From: Matthew Paul Thomas > To: Gnome usability > Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions > > On Jun 25, 2006, at 7:16 AM, Kirk Bridger wrote: > > ... > > I don't like the way Windows uses file extensions to determine > > filetype. It is a fairly fast way of doing things. > > I think it is much more useful to have the system figure > > out what filetype it is. There certainly used to be an option to use full file type detection in Nautilus, which was much more necessary several years ago as some developers intentionally did not use any file extensions but most do nowadays. Even if we had a system where we did not need to use file extensions I would generally add them back in for my own use, they are especially useful for simple pattern matching on the command line. For example: ls -lgh *.png > > Windows ended up providing users with a > > means of hiding file extensions and we all know how that turned out. > > I love being able to send a .exe file through my exchange server's > > filter simply by renaming it .txt. I've seen people embed huge video files inside Word Documents just to bypass stupid filters. It is a system only useful for preventing users from accidentally shooting themselves in the foot but that wont stop those determined to wreck their computer. > The converse of that is the friend of mine who renamed something.bmp to > something.gif and wondered why it didn't get converted. A very familiar situation. It didn't help that some web authoring tools such as Microsoft Frontpage failed to discourage users from including massive uncompressed bitmaps on their web pages. It would sure be an improvement to offer to convert the file instead of issuing pointless - inevitably ignored - warnings the way Microsoft does. -- Alan From reinouts@gnome.org Sun Jun 25 10:38:30 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C5643B00CA for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:38:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17732-05 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:38:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp13.wxs.nl (smtp13.wxs.nl [195.121.247.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F2FB3B00FE for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:38:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from reinout.rotterdam-cs.com (ip5656924e.speed.planet.nl [86.86.146.78]) by smtp13.wxs.nl (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004)) with SMTP id <0J1F00KSS7B3U5@smtp13.wxs.nl> for usability@gnome.org; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 16:37:52 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 16:40:29 +0200 From: Reinout van Schouwen To: usability@gnome.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Pan/0.14.2 (This is not a psychotic episode. It's a cleansing moment of clarity.) References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> <449D8F71.1060304@shaw.ca> <6b768541cf85cb7ade2a7217c3faffd4@myrealbox.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.014, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 14:38:30 -0000 On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:21:12 +1200, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > The converse of that is the friend of mine who renamed something.bmp to > something.gif and wondered why it didn't get converted. Automagically converting the file after the user renames it to another graphics type would be a very sensible thing to do, wouldn't it? regards, -- Reinout van Schouwen From reinouts@gnome.org Sun Jun 25 10:41:44 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93DA03B00BB for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:41:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17855-06 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:41:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp16.wxs.nl (smtp16.wxs.nl [195.121.247.7]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 232073B00CA for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:41:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from reinout.rotterdam-cs.com (ip5656924e.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl [86.86.146.78]) by smtp16.wxs.nl (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004)) with SMTP id <0J1F005KV7GTCX@smtp16.wxs.nl> for usability@gnome.org; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 16:41:18 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 16:43:55 +0200 From: Reinout van Schouwen To: usability@gnome.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Pan/0.14.2 (This is not a psychotic episode. It's a cleansing moment of clarity.) References: <20060621212649.98622.qmail@web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.014, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 14:41:44 -0000 On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 22:26:49 +0100, Joachim Noreiko wrote: > Try to open an MP3 file in Nautilus, and you get a 'application could not > be found' message, which is unhelpful and untrue. > Replace that with something that says why the MP3 can't be played. You are assuming that people read such messages. In reality, unfortunately, they don't. regards, -- Reinout van Schouwen From mpt@myrealbox.com Sun Jun 25 18:51:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BF323B0201 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 18:51:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06774-08 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 18:51:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from leucothea.redline.site5.com (leucothea.redline.site5.com [216.118.97.161]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 390DA3B019D for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 18:51:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 203-173-178-53.bliink.ihug.co.nz ([203.173.178.53] helo=[10.1.1.5]) by leucothea.redline.site5.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.52) id 1FudS6-0007xY-9V; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 18:51:38 -0400 In-Reply-To: References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> <449D8F71.1060304@shaw.ca> <6b768541cf85cb7ade2a7217c3faffd4@myrealbox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Matthew Paul Thomas Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:51:39 +1200 To: Gnome usability X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.623) X-Antivirus-Scanner: This message has been scanned by ClamAV. X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - leucothea.redline.site5.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnome.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - myrealbox.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.514 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.085, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.514 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 22:51:46 -0000 On Jun 26, 2006, at 2:40 AM, Reinout van Schouwen wrote: > > On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:21:12 +1200, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: >> >> The converse of that is the friend of mine who renamed something.bmp >> to something.gif and wondered why it didn't get converted. > > Automagically converting the file after the user renames it to another > graphics type would be a very sensible thing to do, wouldn't it? > ... I don't think so, because then you would still have the "renaming a file in a particular way causes a confirmation alert" problem, except this time the alert would be asking about a (usually) lossy file conversion instead of merely a rename. -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Mon Jun 26 03:49:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67B333B0124 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 03:49:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31093-05 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 03:49:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.204]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A389A3B00B6 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 03:49:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 67033 invoked by uid 60001); 26 Jun 2006 07:49:48 -0000 Message-ID: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.188.218.167] by web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:49:48 BST Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:49:48 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Reinout van Schouwen , usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.654 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.702, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.654 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 07:49:52 -0000 --- Reinout van Schouwen wrote: > On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 22:26:49 +0100, Joachim Noreiko > wrote: > > > Try to open an MP3 file in Nautilus, and you get a > 'application could not > > be found' message, which is unhelpful and untrue. > > Replace that with something that says why the MP3 > can't be played. > > You are assuming that people read such messages. In > reality, > unfortunately, they don't. Yes, they often don't. But have to assume they do and plan our UI around that assumption. Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and probably no user documentation either. ___________________________________________________________ Now you can scan emails quickly with a reading pane. Get the new Yahoo! Mail. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html From burner@suppressingfire.org Mon Jun 26 10:22:09 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B811B3B043B for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:22:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24164-06 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:22:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ms-smtp-01.nyroc.rr.com (ms-smtp-01.nyroc.rr.com [24.24.2.55]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66D493B0124 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:22:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from suppressingfire (cpe-24-24-95-18.stny.res.rr.com [24.24.95.18]) by ms-smtp-01.nyroc.rr.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k5QELvpk004094 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:22:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [66.24.9.211] (helo=phoenix.local) by suppressingfire with asmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1Fury6-0003dz-00; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:21:38 -0400 From: "Michael R. Head" To: usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-jyWJEDPHSqqZY9+dmCjI" Organization: suppressingfire.org Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:21:33 -0400 Message-Id: <1151331695.7135.143.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Scanner: exiscan *1Fury6-0003dz-00*MS6m9wiATYI* X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.653 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_NJABL_DUL=1.946] X-Spam-Score: -0.653 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:22:09 -0000 --=-jyWJEDPHSqqZY9+dmCjI Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:49 +0100, Joachim Noreiko wrote: >=20 > Yes, they often don't. > But have to assume they do and plan our UI around that > assumption. > Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and probably > no user documentation either. It's not that we shouldn't have those, it's that the user shouldn't _need_ them. --=20 Michael R. Head suppressingfire.org --=-jyWJEDPHSqqZY9+dmCjI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEn+1tNXGzGEydodARAqBvAKCCBm4gdnuwL1qXO4DzJtBTQB0tNACeMCMV 98CqtU5zsymY1oSZ3hjToYY= =1qKT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-jyWJEDPHSqqZY9+dmCjI-- From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Mon Jun 26 12:36:43 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2CFA3B009A for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:36:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00507-06 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:36:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.202]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DDC053B03BA for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:36:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 49772 invoked by uid 60001); 26 Jun 2006 16:36:42 -0000 Message-ID: <20060626163642.49770.qmail@web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.214.125.57] by web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:36:42 BST Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:36:42 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: "Michael R. Head" , usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <1151331695.7135.143.camel@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.565 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.613, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.565 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:36:44 -0000 --- "Michael R. Head" wrote: > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:49 +0100, Joachim Noreiko > wrote: > > > > Yes, they often don't. > > But have to assume they do and plan our UI around > that > > assumption. > > Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and > probably > > no user documentation either. > > It's not that we shouldn't have those, it's that the > user shouldn't > _need_ them. I agree with that in general. But when the user tries to open a file for which there's no application, there has to be some sort of response from the system. ___________________________________________________________ All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html From glatzor@ubuntu.com Mon Jun 26 14:31:16 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 333A13B0265 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:31:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07114-05 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:31:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail-out.m-online.net (mail-out.m-online.net [212.18.0.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8BEB3B017D for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:31:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail01.m-online.net (svr21.m-online.net [192.168.3.149]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2BCA73290 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:31:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pimpzkru.dyndns.org (ppp-82-135-65-46.dynamic.mnet-online.de [82.135.65.46]) by mail.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 949F092781 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:31:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pimpzkru.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DA2AD2E05 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:47:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pimpzkru.dyndns.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (server.daheim [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20467-07 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:47:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from sebi-mac.daheim (sebi-mac.daheim [10.169.18.2]) by pimpzkru.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3721ED2E02 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:47:05 +0200 (CEST) From: Sebastian Heinlein To: usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20060626163642.49770.qmail@web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060626163642.49770.qmail@web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:30:33 +0200 Message-Id: <1151346634.4959.6.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at pimpzkru X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.464 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.464 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:31:16 -0000 Am Montag, den 26.06.2006, 17:36 +0100 schrieb Joachim Noreiko: > --- "Michael R. Head" > wrote: > > > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:49 +0100, Joachim Noreiko > > wrote: > > > > > > Yes, they often don't. > > > But have to assume they do and plan our UI around > > that > > > assumption. > > > Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and > > probably > > > no user documentation either. > > > > It's not that we shouldn't have those, it's that the > > user shouldn't > > _need_ them. > > I agree with that in general. > But when the user tries to open a file for which > there's no application, there has to be some sort of > response from the system May I point you to the following spec that has been discussed on the Ubuntu Depeveloper Summit in Paris recently: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SuggestedPackagesForFiletypesSpec Regards, Sebastian From mpt@myrealbox.com Mon Jun 26 23:42:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82C2B3B0286 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:42:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01194-10 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:42:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from leucothea.redline.site5.com (leucothea.redline.site5.com [216.118.97.161]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 832863B00CF for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:42:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 203-173-178-53.bliink.ihug.co.nz ([203.173.178.53] helo=[10.1.1.5]) by leucothea.redline.site5.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.52) id 1Fv4TO-00043b-Bp; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:42:46 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Matthew Paul Thomas Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:42:56 +1200 To: Gnome usability X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.623) X-Antivirus-Scanner: This message has been scanned by ClamAV. X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - leucothea.redline.site5.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnome.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - myrealbox.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.524 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.075, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.524 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 03:42:51 -0000 On Jun 26, 2006, at 7:49 PM, Joachim Noreiko wrote: > ... > --- Reinout van Schouwen wrote: > ... >> You are assuming that people read such messages. In reality, >> unfortunately, they don't. > > Yes, they often don't. But have to assume they do and plan our UI > around that assumption. Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and > probably no user documentation either. > ... That's a long-term goal to work towards: alerts replaced by bug fixes and better design, and "user documentation" replaced by helpful help and better design. But that's not the issue here. The issue is, given that there is an error alert, which alert text is better: "Nautilus could not open the file because the filetype is unknown", or "&operatingsystem; cannot play MP3 files, because some countries allow software patents and Free Software cannot pay patent licenses". -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ From kbridger@shaw.ca Tue Jun 27 00:40:32 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 179EB3B0125 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:40:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03708-04 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:40:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pd2mo2so.prod.shaw.ca (shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net [24.71.223.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCA8E3B0143 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:40:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pd5mr1so.prod.shaw.ca (pd5mr1so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.232]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1I0071O4YNP570@l-daemon> for usability@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:39:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml1so.prod.shaw.ca ([10.0.121.145]) by pd5mr1so.prod.shaw.ca (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-2.05 (built Apr 28 2005)) with ESMTP id <0J1I001J94YN5Q50@pd5mr1so.prod.shaw.ca> for usability@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:39:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from spontaneity.thebside.ca ([70.70.211.21]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1I00ART4YN7T31@l-daemon> for usability@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:39:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.0.10] (westley [192.168.0.10]) by spontaneity.thebside.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C58A043724; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:39:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:39:58 -0700 From: Kirk Bridger In-reply-to: To: Matthew Paul Thomas Message-id: <44A0B69E.4050605@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> <449D8F71.1060304@shaw.ca> <6b768541cf85cb7ade2a7217c3faffd4@myrealbox.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.372 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.817, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST=1.708, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.372 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Gnome usability Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 04:40:32 -0000 I think it would be an interesting idea if it was lossless.  As soon as data can be lost in the translation I think it would be a mistake.

But as Matthew pointed out, it is a rename function.  Might it make more sense to have a right-click option to convert a file to another filetype, a la Nautilus scripts?  Certainly more complex but also more robust I think.

Why would a file's name determine it's format?  It seems artificial and fragile to me.  Alan's point about organizing via extension is a fallback to the shell, but is certainly true.  For the shell.  I think there are better ways to do it on the desktop - perhaps with Beagle and tagging images with their type or something like that?

However as long it is lossless there would be no danger and it most likely would be useful to some.  It actually might be kind of cool.


Kirk



Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: 
On Jun 26, 2006, at 2:40 AM, Reinout van Schouwen wrote:
  
On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:21:12 +1200, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
    
The converse of that is the friend of mine who renamed something.bmp 
to something.gif and wondered why it didn't get converted.
      
Automagically converting the file after the user renames it to another
graphics type would be a very sensible thing to do, wouldn't it?
...
    

I don't think so, because then you would still have the "renaming a 
file in a particular way causes a confirmation alert" problem, except 
this time the alert would be asking about a (usually) lossy file 
conversion instead of merely a rename.
From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Tue Jun 27 10:37:21 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34D453B0497 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 10:37:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03799-06 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 10:37:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3DC803B0234 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 10:37:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bell.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.9] helo=bell.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 27 Jun 2006 15:36:40 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:36:40 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: Gnome usability In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:37:21 -0000 On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: [...] > > Yes, they often don't. But have to assume they do and plan our UI > > around that assumption. Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and > > probably no user documentation either. > > ... > > That's a long-term goal to work towards: alerts replaced by bug fixes > and better design, and "user documentation" replaced by helpful help > and better design. > But that's not the issue here. The issue is, given that there is an > error alert, which alert text is better: I agree with your sentiment but ... > "Nautilus could not open the > file because the filetype is unknown", or > "&operatingsystem; cannot play MP3 files, because some countries allow > software patents and Free Software cannot pay patent licenses". ... there are so many things wrong with that second sentence I will not criticize it other than to say I hope you will retract it, or rephrase it. -- Alan H. From thejello@gmail.com Tue Jun 27 11:30:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2D3B3B00A0 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:30:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05701-08 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:30:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.181]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8869E3B00B4 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:30:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id b29so1887828pya for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:29:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.121.9 with SMTP id y9mr7319104pym; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:29:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.124.18 with HTTP; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:29:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4d9c6c340606270829v76184a30t1873601ca705e921@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:29:55 -0400 From: "Simon Francis" To: "Matthew Paul Thomas" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_11777_20547401.1151422195993" References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.928 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.097, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, HTML_30_40=0.374, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.928 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Gnome usability Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:30:27 -0000 ------=_Part_11777_20547401.1151422195993 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline But OpenOffice and AbiWord open my Word documents fine which have patents. It is as essential to a home user to have working multimedia playback as a business user having the ability to open documents. On 6/26/06, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > > On Jun 26, 2006, at 7:49 PM, Joachim Noreiko wrote: > > ... > > --- Reinout van Schouwen wrote: > > ... > >> You are assuming that people read such messages. In reality, > >> unfortunately, they don't. > > > > Yes, they often don't. But have to assume they do and plan our UI > > around that assumption. Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and > > probably no user documentation either. > > ... > > That's a long-term goal to work towards: alerts replaced by bug fixes > and better design, and "user documentation" replaced by helpful help > and better design. > > But that's not the issue here. The issue is, given that there is an > error alert, which alert text is better: "Nautilus could not open the > file because the filetype is unknown", or "&operatingsystem; cannot > play MP3 files, because some countries allow software patents and Free > Software cannot pay patent licenses". > > -- > Matthew Paul Thomas > http://mpt.net.nz/ > > _______________________________________________ > Usability mailing list > Usability@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability > ------=_Part_11777_20547401.1151422195993 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline But OpenOffice and AbiWord open my Word documents fine which have patents. It is as essential to a home user to have working multimedia playback as a business user having the ability to open documents.

On 6/26/06, Matthew Paul Thomas <mpt@myrealbox.com> wrote:
On Jun 26, 2006, at 7:49 PM, Joachim Noreiko wrote:
> ...
> --- Reinout van Schouwen <reinouts@gnome.org> wrote:
> ...
>> You are assuming that people read such messages. In reality,
>> unfortunately, they don't.
>
> Yes, they often don't. But have to assume they do and plan our UI
> around that assumption. Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and
> probably no user documentation either.
> ...

That's a long-term goal to work towards: alerts replaced by bug fixes
and better design, and "user documentation" replaced by helpful help
and better design.

But that's not the issue here. The issue is, given that there is an
error alert, which alert text is better: "Nautilus could not open the
file because the filetype is unknown", or "&operatingsystem; cannot
play MP3 files, because some countries allow software patents and Free
Software cannot pay patent licenses".

--
Matthew Paul Thomas
http://mpt.net.nz/

_______________________________________________
Usability mailing list
Usability@gnome.org
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability

------=_Part_11777_20547401.1151422195993-- From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Tue Jun 27 11:47:32 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC2E73B0110 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:47:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06333-09 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:47:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C26043B0172 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:47:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bell.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.9] helo=bell.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 27 Jun 2006 16:46:39 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:46:38 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: Gnome usability In-Reply-To: <4d9c6c340606270829v76184a30t1873601ca705e921@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4d9c6c340606270829v76184a30t1873601ca705e921@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:47:32 -0000 On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Simon Francis wrote: > Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:29:55 -0400 > From: Simon Francis > To: Matthew Paul Thomas > Cc: Gnome usability > Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions > > But OpenOffice and AbiWord open my Word documents fine which have patents. Do they? The newer XML formats might have some dodgy patents but I don't think the older Microsoft Word .doc had any patents and Rich Text Format was intended for sharing documents with other word processors (RTF is what Abiword actually uses). -- Alan From liam@holoweb.net Tue Jun 27 18:01:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FEF03B009D for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 18:01:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18927-05 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 18:01:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hd-t1637cl.privatedns.com (ip-209-172-34-239.reverse.privatedns.com [209.172.34.239]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6DEEF3B00B3 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 18:01:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 22820 invoked from network); 27 Jun 2006 22:01:16 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?127.0.0.1?) (127.0.0.1) by hd-t1637cl.privatedns.com with SMTP; 27 Jun 2006 22:01:16 -0000 From: Liam R E Quin To: Matthew Paul Thomas In-Reply-To: References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=-/ZZWHMx5iFlopzfnwJPX" Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:56:21 -0400 Message-Id: <1151445381.25012.65.camel@dell.barefootcomputing.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.2-1mdv2007.0 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.498 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.034, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_50_60=0.134, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.498 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Gnome usability Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 22:01:47 -0000 --=-/ZZWHMx5iFlopzfnwJPX Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 15:42 +1200, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: [...] > But that's not the issue here. The issue is, given that there is an > error alert, which alert text is better: "Nautilus could not open the > file because the filetype is unknown", or "&operatingsystem; cannot > play MP3 files, because some countries allow software patents and Free > Software cannot pay patent licenses". The latter isn't true. That is, (1) the operating system is actually likely to be technically capable of supporting MP3 players, and (2) it's trying to play a piece of music (one imagines) and not in fact trying to play a patent :-) More importantly, the right message in practice might be The distributor of this operating environment did not obtain permission to ship support for MPEG sound decoding (e.g. mp3) from the holder(s) of patents on the required techniques. If you know that the legal issues do not affect you, you can install support for MP3 files [here]. Contact your local politician to register a protest against the way that ideas can belong to corporations [here]. People are more likely to read messages if, from time to time, they contain useful information. Explain the problem, and help people to understand the issues, and then help them to do something about it. best, Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org --=-/ZZWHMx5iFlopzfnwJPX Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 15:42 +1200, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
[...] 
But that's not the issue here. The issue is, given that there is an 
error alert, which alert text is better: "Nautilus could not open the 
file because the filetype is unknown", or "&operatingsystem; cannot 
play MP3 files, because some countries allow software patents and Free 
Software cannot pay patent licenses".

The latter isn't true.  That is,
(1) the operating system is actually likely to be technically capable
    of supporting MP3 players, and
(2) it's trying to play a piece of music (one imagines) and not in
    fact trying to play a patent :-)

More importantly, the right message in practice might be

    The distributor of this operating environment did not obtain
    permission to ship support for MPEG sound decoding (e.g. mp3)
    from the holder(s) of patents on the required techniques.

    If you know that the legal issues do not affect you, you can
    install support for MP3 files [here].

    Contact your local politician to register a protest against
    the way that ideas can belong to corporations [here].

People are more likely to read messages if, from time to time,
they contain useful information.  Explain the problem, and
help people to understand the issues, and then help them to
do something about it.

best,

Liam

-- 
Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org
--=-/ZZWHMx5iFlopzfnwJPX-- From mpt@myrealbox.com Wed Jun 28 03:21:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B1753B000F for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 03:21:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30217-06 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 03:21:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from leucothea.redline.site5.com (leucothea.redline.site5.com [216.118.97.161]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B86653B0010 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 03:21:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 203-173-178-53.bliink.ihug.co.nz ([203.173.178.53] helo=[10.1.1.5]) by leucothea.redline.site5.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.52) id 1FvULi-0003jt-Gr; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 03:20:36 -0400 In-Reply-To: References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Matthew Paul Thomas Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 19:20:29 +1200 To: Gnome usability X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.624) X-Antivirus-Scanner: This message has been scanned by ClamAV. X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - leucothea.redline.site5.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnome.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - myrealbox.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.532 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.067, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.532 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 07:21:45 -0000 On Jun 28, 2006, at 2:36 AM, Alan Horkan wrote: > > On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > ... >> "Nautilus could not open the file because the filetype is unknown", >> or "&operatingsystem; cannot play MP3 files, because some countries >> allow software patents and Free Software cannot pay patent licenses". > > ... there are so many things wrong with that second sentence I will > not criticize it other than to say I hope you will retract it, or > rephrase it. > ... That (like most of your postings, alas) is critical but utterly unhelpful. How specifically would you improve the sentence? (I'm assuming that Gnome is considered to be Free Software by default, and if a distributor charges money for the inclusion of MP3-playing proprietary software in their OS, they can patch the message to suit the rare case where you've uninstalled that software.) -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ From fraggle@gmail.com Wed Jun 28 05:57:15 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4766C3B0002 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 05:57:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02935-01 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 05:57:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.236]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2F5F3B0079 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 05:57:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 55so716444wri for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 02:56:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.230.8 with SMTP id h8mr1022414qbr; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 02:56:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.64.181.11 with HTTP; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 02:56:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <301d395f0606280256r707ec315s178e5efe70da7fce@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 10:56:31 +0100 From: "Simon Howard" To: "Francesco Stablum" In-Reply-To: <377fd1f30605260335r3ef7c556s3f6724c44f8236f6@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <377fd1f30605260335r3ef7c556s3f6724c44f8236f6@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.494 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.094, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.494 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Copy & paste problem X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:57:15 -0000 On 5/26/06, Francesco Stablum wrote: > The problem is that there are two clipboard buffers and it can be very > annoying and conterintuitive to new unix/gnome users. Why not making a > single buffer? Most users new to Unix are unlikely to know about the PRIMARY selection pasting method (select + middle click). The problems are that you can select text to make a PRIMARY-style "copy" operation, but doing a "paste" using edit-paste will paste the CLIPBOARD selection instead, and similarly a middle-click will paste the PRIMARY selection, which doesn't work if you did edit-copy. The problem is, the only way to combine the two systems would involve copying to the clipboard whenever text is selected. This would make things even more confusing than they already are - imagine someone who selects some text in application 1, selects "edit-copy", then goes to application 2, selects some text (to replace) and hits "edit-paste". Nothing happens, because the clipboard was overwritten the second time he selected any text. I'd say that users are unlikely to stumble across the PRIMARY select paste method anyway. It doesn't interfere with the normal copy-and-paste method, which is what most Unix newbies are going to use. -- Simon Howard http://www.soulsphere.org/ From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Wed Jun 28 08:05:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ABF63B0204 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:05:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09357-07 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:05:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.198]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AB34D3B01B2 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:04:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 10999 invoked by uid 60001); 28 Jun 2006 12:04:12 -0000 Message-ID: <20060628120412.10997.qmail@web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.216.7.206] by web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:04:12 BST Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:04:12 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Simon Howard , Francesco Stablum In-Reply-To: <301d395f0606280256r707ec315s178e5efe70da7fce@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.692 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.740, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.692 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Copy & paste problem X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:05:49 -0000 --- Simon Howard wrote: > On 5/26/06, Francesco Stablum > wrote: > > The problem is that there are two clipboard > buffers and it can be very > > annoying and conterintuitive to new unix/gnome > users. Why not making a > > single buffer? > > Most users new to Unix are unlikely to know about > the PRIMARY > selection pasting method (select + middle click). > The problems are > that you can select text to make a PRIMARY-style > "copy" operation, but > doing a "paste" using edit-paste will paste the > CLIPBOARD selection > instead, and similarly a middle-click will paste the > PRIMARY > selection, which doesn't work if you did edit-copy. > > The problem is, the only way to combine the two > systems would involve > copying to the clipboard whenever text is selected. > This would make > things even more confusing than they already are - > imagine someone who > selects some text in application 1, selects > "edit-copy", then goes to > application 2, selects some text (to replace) and > hits "edit-paste". > Nothing happens, because the clipboard was > overwritten the second time > he selected any text. > > I'd say that users are unlikely to stumble across > the PRIMARY select > paste method anyway. It doesn't interfere with the > normal > copy-and-paste method, which is what most Unix > newbies are going to > use. This is true -- however, the existence of the PRIMARY system does have an impact on users, because across all GTK application windows, there can be only one selection. This breaks users' expectations of what an application is, because something they do in one window can affect the state of selection in another. There's a bug open for this, but most solutions suggested so far are looking at ways to highlight the selection considered for PRIMARY in some way, and nothing proposed so far is entirely satisfactory. Could there be a way to combine the two systems? What about using middle-click-&-drag to select text to copy, and middle-click to paste, using the regular clipboard? ___________________________________________________________ Does your mail provider give you FREE antivirus protection? Get Yahoo! Mail http://uk.mail.yahoo.com From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Wed Jun 28 08:56:50 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDEEF3B00BE for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:56:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11067-05 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:56:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8BD6D3B0083 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:56:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 28 Jun 2006 13:56:13 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:56:13 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan To: Matthew Paul Thomas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Gnome usability Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:56:50 -0000 On Wed, 28 Jun 2006, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 19:20:29 +1200 > From: Matthew Paul Thomas > To: Gnome usability > Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions > > On Jun 28, 2006, at 2:36 AM, Alan Horkan wrote: > > > > On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > That (like most of your postings, alas) is critical but utterly > unhelpful. How specifically would you improve the sentence? See the post Liam Quinn made, it described the issue well. > >> "Nautilus could not open the file because the filetype is unknown", > >> or "&operatingsystem; cannot play MP3 files, because some countries > >> allow software patents and Free Software cannot pay patent licenses". Using the phrase "some countries" in the error message begs the questions which countries? These kinds of ambiguities are best avoided in error messages, it is like answering a users question with another question they are unlikely to know the answer to so it can be very annoying. Software patents may be the root cause of the problem but distributions could choose to license the software from Fleundo so it is a overly complicated way to preset the issue to the user in what should be short and simple error message. > > ... there are so many things wrong with that second sentence I will > > not criticize it other than to say I hope you will retract it, or > > rephrase it. I was hoping you could see that although your sentiment was well intentioned you propesd actions and confusing choice of text were "utterly unhelpful" (sic) but it seems you couldn't even recognise your own mistake and instead of getting all defensive about it and resorting to personal attacks. Admittedly my posts may be rushed and far from perfect but but I try only to provide some timely response of some kind rather than leave questions unanswered. I do not make any claims of expertise and I do not cry foul when others point my mistakes - it may be annoying but I try to learn from them and improve what I'm doing - since I am here to try and help make the software better in whatever way I can manage. I do not have the luxury of being employed to work on Free Software development. > (I'm assuming that Gnome is considered to be Free Software by default, That is not a safe assumption. Many Gnome developers do believe in the ideas of the Free Software Foundation but there is no certain answer that would make your assumption a safe one, Alan Cox and Richard Stallman are not clear on whether it is or not: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/2006-June/msg00098.html For the ordinary users the relevant points are the distributor has chosen not to license the software, or is prevented from (or at least believes the even the threat of legal action is not worth risking) includinging a free version due to legal reason. The freedom issue is important but secondary and only make the error message longer and more confusing. > and if a distributor charges money for the inclusion of MP3-playing > proprietary software in their OS, they can patch the message to suit > the rare case where you've uninstalled that software.) So showing a dialog might be suitable but the message must as simple and direct as possible. -- Alan H. From d2004@cosmopod.com Tue Jun 27 19:42:15 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F1C73B0010 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:42:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21597-07 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:42:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 64.cosmopod.com (unknown [216.75.2.64]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E949F3B0005 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:42:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 64.cosmopod.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by 64.cosmopod.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k5RNfGcX017982 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:41:17 -0700 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by 64.cosmopod.com (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k5RNf9TV017912 for usability@gnome.org; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:41:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: 64.cosmopod.com: d2004 set sender to d2004@cosmopod.com using -f From: d2004@cosmopod.com To: usability@gnome.org Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:41:04 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200606271641.06914.d2004@cosmopod.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.038, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_REAL_NAME=0.961] X-Spam-Score: -1.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:59:56 -0400 Subject: [Usability] Consistency Issue between EOG and gThumb X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 23:42:15 -0000 Dear All, I am a long time GNOME user (but not a developer) and occasional reader of this mailing list. This is my first post though. I have a small usability/consistency issue, which, though rather trivial, is something of a "pet hate" for me. On playing with Fedora Core 6 Test 1 last night, I saw it is still present in the GNOME development build 2.15.2, so I thought I would raise it with you. If the user opens a graphic in gThumb and maximises it to "Full Screen" view (F11) and then zooms in (+ key) they can pan around the image using the cursors. If they then want to move to the next or previous graphic in the directory, they can use the Page Up or Page Down keys. This is all fine, so far as I am concerned. Unfortunately, Eye of GNOME (EOG) has somewhat different behaviour, that makes the two tools inconsistent with each other. On opening a graphic, switching to "Full Screen" view and zooming in, the cursors can no longer be used for panning around. Instead, pressing the up, down, left or right cursors switch the user to the previous or next graphic in the directory. Panning must be done with the mouse instead of keyboard shortcuts. My preference would definitely be that EOG be modified so that the cursors are used for panning, not for moving forwards and backwards between graphics. I have a few other questions not necessarily related to usability but I thought I would raise them. I am aware of the legal/patent concerns around playing regionally-encrypted DVDs in some nations such as the US. I normally download the rpms for Xine, including the deCSS one and use that which works fine. However, having installed DeCSS on my system, I still cannot use Totem as my player. Does Totem need to be recompiled? It would be good to modify the application so that simply installing DeCSS would enable Totem to locate it as a plug-in, thus making the default player usable for those of us in countries without these legal issues by simply adding this one file. Secondly, I am quite intrigued by Project Soylent but there is little information with regard to release dates on the website. Do you have any indication when we will start seeing the fruits of this labour? Will it be in Topaz or in a future 2.x build? Thirdly, having seen the list of Chabada's suggestions that are currently being debated on this list, I can affirm that, as an end user, I would definitely find all that he has suggested to be of benefit, including extra file information displayed in Nautilus, the Evolution mail previews and the use of GNOME Baker as part of the core desktop. More explanation in error/information messages regarding why MP3s and the like cannot be played would also be a benefit in educating users, even if some people do not read the messages. Finally, keep up the good work. I would love to see GNOME gain some more momentum in terms of adoption by desktop users. Keep striving for it! Danni From gnome-Usability@m.gmane.org Wed Jun 28 15:54:19 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86C8C3B019A for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:54:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30946-06 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:54:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51A763B008A for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:54:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Fvg6m-0003PT-M8 for Usability@gnome.org; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:53:56 +0200 Received: from 208.255.6.238 ([208.255.6.238]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:53:56 +0200 Received: from hawke by 208.255.6.238 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:53:56 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: Usability@gnome.org From: Alex Mauer Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:53:44 -0500 Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1151445381.25012.65.camel@dell.barefootcomputing.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig1F6DB6AB10F6CA222F800EE1" X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.255.6.238 User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) In-Reply-To: <1151445381.25012.65.camel@dell.barefootcomputing.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Sender: news X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.933 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.168, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=1.5, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -0.933 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 19:54:19 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig1F6DB6AB10F6CA222F800EE1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> Software cannot pay patent licenses". >=20 > The latter isn't true. That is, > (2) it's trying to play a piece of music (one imagines) and not in > fact trying to play a patent :-) "pay" is not the same as "play" --------------enig1F6DB6AB10F6CA222F800EE1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEot5Pspyc9T9S9Z8RAheWAJ9P+Ten7TVJfNyqLpkMgxG5vqKctACeOgrB b22evmr31rdj0wWzBrwZboo= =5ySV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig1F6DB6AB10F6CA222F800EE1-- From gnome-Usability@m.gmane.org Wed Jun 28 16:05:19 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D6EA3B01CE for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:05:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31334-06 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:05:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F9DD3B00DA for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:05:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1FvgGS-00058t-VK for Usability@gnome.org; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:03:56 +0200 Received: from 208.255.6.238 ([208.255.6.238]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:03:56 +0200 Received: from hawke by 208.255.6.238 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:03:56 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: Usability@gnome.org From: Alex Mauer Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:02:18 -0500 Lines: 45 Message-ID: References: <301d395f0606280256r707ec315s178e5efe70da7fce@mail.gmail.com> <20060628120412.10997.qmail@web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigF18874BA74D82C3519B16B37" X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.255.6.238 User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) In-Reply-To: <20060628120412.10997.qmail@web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Sender: news X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.085 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=1.5, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.085 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Copy & paste problem X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:05:19 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigF18874BA74D82C3519B16B37 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Joachim Noreiko wrote: > This is true -- however, the existence of the PRIMARY > system does have an impact on users, because across > all GTK application windows, there can be only one > selection. This breaks users' expectations of what an > application is, because something they do in one > window can affect the state of selection in another. >=20 > There's a bug open for this, but most solutions > suggested so far are looking at ways to highlight the > selection considered for PRIMARY in some way, and > nothing proposed so far is entirely satisfactory. Has it been proposed that PRIMARY holds the most recent selection, but making a new selection does not deselect the previous one? This seems to be the closest match to expectations, while keeping interference between PRIMARY and clipboard to a minimum. Is there anything unsatisfactory about this? > Could there be a way to combine the two systems? Is there any need to? --------------enigF18874BA74D82C3519B16B37 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEouBRspyc9T9S9Z8RAifGAJ9KrY0cHyUjd6uyvn0T2JWvtaNApwCeM2A+ oAkMWT1YVKCZluP9R3Gt0cY= =h+Uw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigF18874BA74D82C3519B16B37-- From gezimetc@shaw.ca Thu Jun 29 02:32:15 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F166A3B0206 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:32:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22815-10 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:32:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pd2mo1so.prod.shaw.ca (shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net [24.71.223.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8A5A3B000B for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:32:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pd4mr8so.prod.shaw.ca (pd4mr8so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.101]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1L008GTZF4UU80@l-daemon> for Usability@gnome.org; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 00:30:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml1so.prod.shaw.ca ([10.0.121.145]) by pd4mr8so.prod.shaw.ca (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1L00048ZF4MRC0@pd4mr8so.prod.shaw.ca> for Usability@gnome.org; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 00:30:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from laptopi ([70.65.137.227]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1L006YPZF3RJ61@l-daemon> for Usability@gnome.org; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 00:30:40 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 00:30:39 -0600 From: Gezim Hoxha In-reply-to: To: Alex Mauer Message-id: <1151562639.7932.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <301d395f0606280256r707ec315s178e5efe70da7fce@mail.gmail.com> <20060628120412.10997.qmail@web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.394 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.837, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST=1.708, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.394 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Copy & paste problem X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 06:32:15 -0000 On Wed, 2006-28-06 at 15:02 -0500, Alex Mauer wrote: > Joachim Noreiko wrote: > > This is true -- however, the existence of the PRIMARY > > system does have an impact on users, because across > > all GTK application windows, there can be only one > > selection. This breaks users' expectations of what an > > application is, because something they do in one > > window can affect the state of selection in another. > > > > There's a bug open for this, but most solutions > > suggested so far are looking at ways to highlight the > > selection considered for PRIMARY in some way, and > > nothing proposed so far is entirely satisfactory. > > Has it been proposed that PRIMARY holds the most recent selection, but > making a new selection does not deselect the previous one? This seems > to be the closest match to expectations, while keeping interference > between PRIMARY and clipboard to a minimum. What you're saying is that PRIMARY should hold the second most recent selection (saying this because you say that it should hold the most recent selection but if you selection something that is no longer the most recent selection)? If this is the case than this behaviour is not necessarily desired, because if I select a URL and then open a new tab in epiphany, there is no URL so, I'd just place the cursor at the URL bar and want to paste the _most_ recent selection, rather then the second most recent one. However, if I wanted to go to that URL from the current tab, then I'd want to paste the second most recent selection since when I click the URL bar the current URL will be selected. -Gezim From Calum.Benson@Sun.COM Fri Jun 30 09:58:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEE0F3B02AA for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:58:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23483-10 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:58:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 256893B028E for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:58:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-05.sun.com ([192.18.2.115]) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5UDwFQG009306 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 14:58:17 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-05.sun.com by d1-emea-05.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J1O00301E5LMB00@d1-emea-05.sun.com> (original mail from Calum.Benson@Sun.COM) for usability@gnome.org; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 14:58:15 +0100 (BST) Received: from vpn-129-150-116-215.UK.Sun.COM ([129.150.116.215]) by d1-emea-05.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J1O00F8BET2IFW0@d1-emea-05.sun.com>; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 14:58:15 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 15:45:03 +0200 From: Calum Benson In-reply-to: <200606271641.06914.d2004@cosmopod.com> Sender: Calum.Benson@Sun.COM To: d2004@cosmopod.com Message-id: <1151675104.6191.70.camel@localhost.localdomain> Organization: Sun Microsystems Ireland Ltd. MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <200606271641.06914.d2004@cosmopod.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.583 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.015, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.583 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Consistency Issue between EOG and gThumb X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 13:58:27 -0000 On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 16:41 -0700, d2004@cosmopod.com wrote: > My preference would definitely be that EOG be modified so that the cursors are > used for panning, not for moving forwards and backwards between graphics. Hmm, we definitely had a discussion about this very issue at one point, but I can't find a bug about it so it may just have been on IRC, and I can't remember the outcome either. Please file a bug against EOG and we'll take it from there. (I'm afraid I can't help much with your other questions though...) Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:calum.benson@sun.com Java Desktop System Group http://ie.sun.com +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems From dalibor.petricevic@iskon.hr Thu Jun 29 02:56:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5532A3B011E for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:56:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23860-03 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:56:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mxout2.iskon.hr (mxout2.iskon.hr [213.191.128.16]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 37F293B013B for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:56:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 14767 invoked from network); 29 Jun 2006 08:55:55 +0200 X-Remote-IP: 213.191.142.122 Received: from unknown (HELO mx.iskon.hr) (213.191.142.122) by mxout2.iskon.hr with SMTP; 29 Jun 2006 08:55:55 +0200 Received: (qmail 9508 invoked from network); 29 Jun 2006 08:55:55 +0200 X-Remote-IP: 213.191.128.133 Received: from lan.iskon.hr (HELO ?10.0.3.242?) (213.191.128.133) by mx.iskon.hr with SMTP; 29 Jun 2006 08:55:55 +0200 Message-ID: <44A3797B.7070509@iskon.hr> Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:55:55 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-2?Q?Dalibor_Petri=E8evi=E6?= User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Mauer References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1151445381.25012.65.camel@dell.barefootcomputing.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.11 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_05=-1.11] X-Spam-Score: -1.11 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 09:00:16 -0400 Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 06:56:03 -0000 Alex Mauer wrote: >>> Software cannot pay patent licenses". >> The latter isn't true. That is, >> (2) it's trying to play a piece of music (one imagines) and not in >> fact trying to play a patent :-) > > "pay" is not the same as "play" > This statement is 100% true. :-) -- dado From michael.s.gilbert@gmail.com Sun Jun 11 17:26:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3548B3B066D for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:26:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03372-02 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:26:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.198]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71B863B00C2 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:26:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so898841wxd for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 14:26:15 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=E6x4g84w3Wxy2kgsEZWnXCIto/u+bgbiVNUy8s0bEacoZyrS++1h7nSw17dMVy0l08l8XUJMB2wAM/jzt1NghBZBUDRXxWz9jj338jjNZIYZdCYv93fLKS2atVJI5kuo6c1KeprSWUCcpHQWmZc+d+hIXsSTUrBKNUmbpUM2pyY= Received: by 10.70.132.12 with SMTP id f12mr5681715wxd; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 14:26:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.65.5 with HTTP; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 14:26:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <8e2a98be0606111426w7d6407fdj68c34573295b317@mail.gmail.com> From: "Michael Gilbert" To: "Matthew Paul Thomas" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 09:59:24 -0400 Cc: Gnome usability , 371882@bugs.debian.org Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 21:26:54 -0000 X-Original-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:26:15 -0400 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 21:26:54 -0000 hello Matthew, thank you for looking further into these issues. On 6/9/06, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > Hardly surprising: a file search definitely isn't a "place". It's not > an application either, but at least "Applications" looks vaguely like a > Start menu. the best solution is probably an item called something like "File Finder" placed in either "Applications" or "Applications -> System Tools." my gut tells me system tools is better, but that menu is already quite cluttered. > The default should be to search everything you can access, just like in > Web search engines, agreed. > Fortunately the dialog doesn't use the inscrutable "/" terminology, but > "File System" isn't much better, and the icon for it seems to be a > harmonica. Unfortunately there isn't really any good name for > "collection of obscurely-named things that has your files hidden in it > somewhere, and your programs in it spread across several other places, > but which can't be called your hard disk because it has your other > drives hidden inside it too". i think that "All Files" is a more intuitive description for "/" than "File System," and encompasses the needs of your above description. > This is a bug in that while the Find tool tells you "No files found", > it does not mention what it was searching for, so there is no way to > distinguish between a search that has finished with no results and one > that hasn't started yet. note that if one has done a search the dialog will say "No files found" even if the user begins typing a different search term. at this point the software is lying because it doesn't know whether or not there are no files matching the new term. it would be better for the "No files found" feedback to disappear the moment the user modifies the search term or changes any item in the dialog. > Thanks for your interesting report. you're quite welcome. i'm glad to do my part to help make software better. have a nice day. mike From wohler@newt.com Tue Jun 13 12:23:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCF4E3B0071 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:23:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29812-05 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:23:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tassie.newt.com (tassie.newt.com [70.85.162.231]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06F753B00D9 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:23:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from olgas.newt.com (m590e36d0.tmodns.net [208.54.14.89]) by tassie.newt.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F3B71D0A3D; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:22:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by olgas.newt.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 937AF16FB4; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:22:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from olgas.newt.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by olgas.newt.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8971216FAD; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:22:36 -0700 (PDT) To: Calum Benson In-reply-to: References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <1149868755.7852.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <17538.1149869665@olgas.newt.com> Comments: In-reply-to Calum Benson message dated "Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:06:57 +0100." Organization: Newt Software X-Mailer: MH-E 8.0; nmh 1.1; GNU Emacs 22.0.50 X-Image-URL: http://www.newt.com/wohler/images/bill-diving.png Message-ID: <3515.1150215756@olgas.newt.com> From: Bill Wohler X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.062 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.054, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.456] X-Spam-Score: -1.062 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 09:59:24 -0400 Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 16:23:36 -0000 X-Original-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:22:36 -0700 X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 16:23:36 -0000 Calum Benson wrote: > On 9 Jun 2006, at 17:14, Bill Wohler wrote: > > > > Well, I tried C-PageUp/Down in the GtkTreeView widget (in GnuCash), > > and I have no idea what it's doing. > > In a tree view, Ctrl+PgUp/PgDn should be moving focus to the item at > the top or bottom of the current view; in other controls, it's the > shortcut for scrolling left/right: > > http://www.gnome.org/learn/access-guide/latest/keynav-23.html#keynav-35 > > If it's doing something else, it's either a bug, or it's been over- > ridden by a developer who thinks they know better :) Thanks, Calum. Well, that's not what I'm seeing. A GnuCash developer told me that he wouldn't overwrite the GtkTreeView bindings to allow C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs so it's unlikely that it has been overridden. A puzzler indeed. I'll mention this to the developers. I still think that the HIG should specify C-PageUp/Down for moving between tabs and that other widgets should not use this binding. -- Bill Wohler http://www.newt.com/wohler/ GnuPG ID:610BD9AD Maintainer of comp.mail.mh FAQ and MH-E. If you're passed on the right, you're in the wrong lane. From akrodha@gmx.de Sun Jun 25 16:05:29 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B13103B0C45 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 16:05:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30044-07 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 16:05:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.21]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 98BBF3B0A3E for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 15:57:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 25 Jun 2006 19:57:31 -0000 Received: from p54B9E419.dip.t-dialin.net (EHLO [192.168.2.23]) [84.185.228.25] by mail.gmx.net (mp020) with SMTP; 25 Jun 2006 21:57:31 +0200 X-Authenticated: #19803887 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7DB7E6BF-0358-4181-AAAC-514F63FBE93D@gmx.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: usability@gnome.org From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9_Alvarado?= Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 21:57:27 +0200 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 08 Jul 2006 10:30:56 -0400 Subject: [Usability] Alt-drag panel items? X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 20:05:30 -0000 Hello everyone I'm a huge fan of the Alt-drag trick for moving windows around. I was =20= wondering if the same thing could be done with the panel? Currently =20 moving panel items is a mess. Most can only be moved by right-=20 clicking and selecting move, although some of them (application =20 launchers) can simply be dragged=E2=80=94provided they're not locked. Maybe we can simplify the panel by locking ALL items (thereby =20 removing the need for the "Lock" context menu item), but letting the =20 user Alt-drag them around (thereby removing the need for the "Move" =20 context menu item) and maybe even dragging them off the panel or into =20= the Wastebasket (thereby removing the need for the "Remove" context =20 menu item). This could free up the context menu for other purposes. Does it sound like a good idea? =E2=80=93Jos=C3=A9 Alvarado, newcomer to the mailing list P.S. I commented in Bugzilla (http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?=20 id=3D303135), but I figured this might interest the Usability group. =E0=A5=90 From http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2002-02-06-013-20-RV-KE-0004 Matt Perrt - Subject: Re: Wish List for kde3 ( Feb 7, 2002, 00:16:08 ) I have but one wish for KDE3. Make the "about" menu of each program display a one or two paragraph summary of what the program is about. Move all the credits to a "credits" menu. For new computer users, it's misleading to have the about menu not tell you anything useful about the program. Flame away ;-) Gregory Merchan From maurizio.colucci@gmail.com Sat Jun 3 09:44:58 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84B783B0071 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 09:44:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06472-03 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 09:44:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.225]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C22D3B04A9 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 09:44:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 50so711416wri for ; Sat, 03 Jun 2006 06:44:54 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=ueyQCybpWPMALDzDI3limxwRxIl77AriXASXgdjlnwOf+AW372pd6t9Vb64sFv7dsEpKBavtuMpnHsa4Xdronef3L9406qVAygiWe4PvwRYktPpImW1ASpjnKdnamNKMdXcz01o7/cM+dRHHr0HLE4di4q6Ou3KdSXFa3hRNpCo= Received: by 10.64.195.9 with SMTP id s9mr2455617qbf; Sat, 03 Jun 2006 06:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.237.7 with HTTP; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 06:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 15:44:54 +0200 From: "Maurizio Colucci" To: usability@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_18723_27366656.1149342294208" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.457 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.142, BAYES_05=-1.11, HTML_00_10=0.795, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.457 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Usability] Fingerprint reader X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 13:44:58 -0000 ------=_Part_18723_27366656.1149342294208 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi, Yesterday, when I had a friend of mine try the new Ubuntu, I had an unpleasant suprise: he laughed at me when he saw me type the password by hand. It seems he has been using a fingerprint reader under Windows, for more than a year now. I realized this is a feature that he will not do without, now he has gotten used to it. It seems the advantage under GNU/Linux would be even greater, since GNU/Linux requires you to type passwords more often than Windows. Is there some way to use a fingerprint reader to type passwords with Gnome? (My guess is it isn't, and that some work would be needed at the level of gksu and gdm.) I have no real point however, I only wished to inform you about this. Cheers Maurizio ------=_Part_18723_27366656.1149342294208 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi,
Yesterday, when I had a friend of mine try the new Ubuntu, I had an unpleasant suprise: he laughed at me when he saw me type the password by hand. It seems he has been using a fingerprint reader under Windows, for more than a year now.

I realized this is a feature that he will not do without, now he has gotten used to it.

It seems the advantage under GNU/Linux would be even greater, since GNU/Linux requires you to type passwords more often than Windows.

Is there some way to use a fingerprint reader to type passwords with Gnome? (My guess is it isn't, and that some work would be needed at the level of gksu and gdm.)

I have no real point however, I only wished to inform you about this. Cheers

Maurizio
------=_Part_18723_27366656.1149342294208-- From herzi@gnome-de.org Sat Jun 3 10:16:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39D073B0418 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:16:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08377-05 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:16:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.bytecamp.net (mail.bytecamp.net [212.204.60.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4B0413B011C for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:16:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 49673 invoked by uid 85); 3 Jun 2006 14:16:19 -0000 Received: from herzi@gnome-de.org by mail.bytecamp.net by uid 88 with qmail-scanner-1.20 (clamscan: 0.88.1 Clear:RC:0(80.171.61.188):. Processed in 0.020755 secs); 03 Jun 2006 14:16:19 -0000 Received: from d061188.adsl.hansenet.de (HELO wallace) (herzi%gnome-de.org@80.171.61.188) by mail.bytecamp.net with SMTP; 3 Jun 2006 14:16:18 -0000 Subject: Re: [Usability] Fingerprint reader From: Sven Herzberg To: Maurizio Colucci In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-eRqHlUcxkMCx8gO/XwrP" Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 17:35:30 +0200 Message-Id: <1149348930.5442.12.camel@wallace> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.48 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.042, BAYES_00=-2.599, TW_GD=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.48 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 14:16:27 -0000 --=-eRqHlUcxkMCx8gO/XwrP Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sa, 2006-06-03 at 15:44 +0200, Maurizio Colucci wrote: > Yesterday, when I had a friend of mine try the new Ubuntu, I had an > unpleasant suprise: he laughed at me when he saw me type the password > by hand. It seems he has been using a fingerprint reader under > Windows, for more than a year now.=20 >=20 > I realized this is a feature that he will not do without, now he has > gotten used to it.=20 >=20 > It seems the advantage under GNU/Linux would be even greater, since > GNU/Linux requires you to type passwords more often than Windows.=20 >=20 > Is there some way to use a fingerprint reader to type passwords with > Gnome? (My guess is it isn't, and that some work would be needed at > the level of gksu and gdm.)=20 The fingerprint readers in the Thinkpad X41 series do work with Linux and work with the pam-bio-api plugin. I tested this both with gdm and gksu and it works (not perfectly but, well, it wors). I only didn't test it with gnome keyring (which will be an important thing too). > I have no real point however, I only wished to inform you about this. > Cheers=20 Regards, Sven --=-eRqHlUcxkMCx8gO/XwrP Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEgaxCBWX9a7HDCv4RAn03AKDFQ6419PZ/XzvvDpkjxBimpH0sywCfawZV RYa+Y4FgXJ2XedGWhwxW8uc= =Ocwk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-eRqHlUcxkMCx8gO/XwrP-- From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Sat Jun 3 10:17:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D17B43B05AE for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:17:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08314-10 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:17:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 28FB03B0601 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:17:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 3 Jun 2006 15:17:44 +0100 (BST) Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 15:17:44 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan To: Maurizio Colucci Subject: Re: [Usability] Fingerprint reader In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 14:17:50 -0000 On Sat, 3 Jun 2006, Maurizio Colucci wrote: > Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 15:44:54 +0200 > From: Maurizio Colucci > To: usability@gnome.org > Subject: [Usability] Fingerprint reader > > Hi, > Yesterday, when I had a friend of mine try the new Ubuntu, I had an > unpleasant suprise: he laughed at me when he saw me type the password by > hand. It seems he has been using a fingerprint reader under Windows, for > more than a year now. This is a bit off topic for this list. Better to check with Ubuntu about hardware support. > It seems the advantage under GNU/Linux would be even greater, since > GNU/Linux requires you to type passwords more often than Windows. (It is easier to just type Gnome than GNU/Linux every time.) A topic more appropriate to this list would be trying to figure out ways to improve password sharing and single sign on so that you do not need to type passwords so often. > Is there some way to use a fingerprint reader to type passwords with Gnome? I assume it would fit in with the existing password infrastructure. I know Sun Microsystems have systems setup to login and authenticate off a smart card and there are suggestions of doing the same using USB keys so I'd be surprised if there wasn't already a supported finger print reader but it may take a little bit of additional work to get it up and running. > I have no real point however, I only wished to inform you about this. Cheers Thanks for trying. -- Alan From elektro@geekspot.de Sun Jun 4 11:01:01 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10C033B016C for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 11:01:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24057-03 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 11:00:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.169199.vserver.de (riedrich.biz [62.75.169.199]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45FC53B011B for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 11:00:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.169199.vserver.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id E21EB338804F for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:00:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp.169199.vserver.de ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (169199.vserver.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19483-02 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:00:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Desktop.lan (d463d0c7.datahighways.de [212.99.208.199]) by smtp.169199.vserver.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4E35338804D for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:00:39 +0200 (CEST) From: elektro To: usability@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 17:00:39 +0200 Message-Id: <1149433239.10978.15.camel@desktop> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: By ClamAV on Debian GNU/Linux at Geekspot X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.465 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.465 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Usability] The "Desktop" dilemma X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 15:01:01 -0000 Hi there, I'm new to this mailing list, so I don't know if this has already been discussed or not. What really disturbs me a lot (in almost all operating systems) is the "Desktop dilemma". I think the desktop folder, or the Desktop button in the places menu somehow just doesn't fit in. In Nautilus, in my home folder, I have a "Desktop" folder. But in the sidebar, I have a place called "personal folder", and a second place called "Desktop", although "Desktop" is also a sub-directory of my "personal folder". This is confusing, especially to new users. I think the desktop should be _either_ a directory, _or_ a place, but not both. My suggestion would be to have the desktop only show up as a place, and the files on the desktop could be stored in a hidden ".desktop" directory within the user's home. Another thing is the two Nautilus toolbar buttons "Personal folder" and "Computer". The button in the toolbar says "Personal folder", while the same button in the sidebar reads my username. I think both buttons should be removed, instead, the "Computer" icon should also appear as a button in the "places" sidebar. I'd bring some new arrangement into the places sidebar, similar to the one in the "Places" menu in the panel: -------- Personal Desktop -------- Computer File system -------- Network servers -------- The problem with the current layout is that all drives are completely mixed together, the "file system" place is also somewhere in between. When you go the the "Computer" place, you see all attached/mounted drives as icons. The problem is that it's hard to see if a drive is actually mounted or not, for example my USB stick: It's hard to see from the icon if it is mounted or not. What I also really miss is the ability to unmount/eject an external drive be right-clicking the icon in the sidebar or in the Places menu. Mac OS X is doing this right: An mounted CD-ROM appars in a Finder sidebar, similar to Nautilus, but there's a little "eject button" next to the icon, when you click this, the CD is unmounted and ejected. Perhaps you could add such an eject button to the places sidebar and the places panel menu. Tom From david@sipsolutions.net Sun Jun 4 14:35:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B06D43B017A for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 14:35:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03644-08 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 14:35:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sipsolutions.net (crystal.sipsolutions.net [195.210.38.204]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DE083B0130 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 14:35:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [84.133.205.221] (helo=[192.168.1.7]) by sipsolutions.net with esmtpsa (TLS-1.0:RSA_ARCFOUR_MD5:16) (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FmxRy-0007EF-Op; Sun, 04 Jun 2006 19:35:47 +0100 Subject: Re: [Usability] The "Desktop" dilemma From: David Christian Berg To: elektro In-Reply-To: <1149433239.10978.15.camel@desktop> References: <1149433239.10978.15.camel@desktop> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 20:34:58 +0200 Message-Id: <1149446101.8310.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 18:35:51 -0000 Hey Tom! > I think the desktop should be _either_ a directory, _or_ a place, but > not both. My suggestion would be to have the desktop only show up as a > place, and the files on the desktop could be stored in a hidden > ".desktop" directory within the user's home. Would you be ok with displaying the desktop as a desktop icon in the home directory as well so that it's easily distinguishable from other folders? > Another thing is the two Nautilus toolbar buttons "Personal folder" and > "Computer". The button in the toolbar says "Personal folder", while the > same button in the sidebar reads my username. I think both buttons > should be removed, instead, the "Computer" icon should also appear as a > button in the "places" sidebar. In my version the folder reads "Home Folder" and the button "Go to home folder" I don't think there's anything wrong with this, because many people might not use the tree view on the sidepane. The computer icon is not needed in the tree view, because you see the drives anyways > I'd bring some new arrangement into the places sidebar, similar to the > one in the "Places" menu in the panel: > > -------- > Personal > Desktop > -------- > Computer > File system > > > > -------- > Network servers > > -------- > The problem with the current layout is that all drives are completely > mixed together, the "file system" place is also somewhere in between. I do like the idea of dividing them this way and also would add a separate section for mounted media like cams and usb sticks, floppies and CDs... if possible. However, does GTK TreeView have a dividing element? As for the Computer: I'd leave it unchanged > When you go the the "Computer" place, you see all attached/mounted > drives as icons. The problem is that it's hard to see if a drive is > actually mounted or not, for example my USB stick: It's hard to see from > the icon if it is mounted or not. What I also really miss is the ability > to unmount/eject an external drive be right-clicking the icon in the > sidebar or in the Places menu. Mac OS X is doing this right: An mounted > CD-ROM appars in a Finder sidebar, similar to Nautilus, but there's a > little "eject button" next to the icon, when you click this, the CD is > unmounted and ejected. Perhaps you could add such an eject button to the > places sidebar and the places panel menu. Afaik you only see the icon, if it is mounted... at least it should be that way with all the media. Take care! David From chris@gnome-de.org Mon Jun 5 09:09:35 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 849453B0208 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:09:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00391-01 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:09:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.bytecamp.net (mail.bytecamp.net [212.204.60.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 56FE63B02DA for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:09:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 3177 invoked by uid 85); 5 Jun 2006 13:09:21 -0000 Received: from chris@gnome-de.org by mail.bytecamp.net by uid 88 with qmail-scanner-1.20 (clamscan: 0.88.1 Clear:RC:0(84.150.144.79):. Processed in 0.190123 secs); 05 Jun 2006 13:09:21 -0000 Received: from p5496904f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (HELO ?192.168.123.191?) (chris@gnome-de.org@84.150.144.79) by mail.bytecamp.net with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 13:09:20 -0000 Subject: Re: [Usability] Fingerprint reader From: Christian Neumair To: Maurizio Colucci In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 15:02:50 +0200 Message-Id: <1149512570.8272.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.587 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.012, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.587 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:09:35 -0000 Am Samstag, den 03.06.2006, 15:44 +0200 schrieb Maurizio Colucci: > Hi, > Yesterday, when I had a friend of mine try the new Ubuntu, I had an > unpleasant suprise: he laughed at me when he saw me type the password > by hand. It seems he has been using a fingerprint reader under > Windows, for more than a year now. > > I realized this is a feature that he will not do without, now he has > gotten used to it. > > It seems the advantage under GNU/Linux would be even greater, since > GNU/Linux requires you to type passwords more often than Windows. > > Is there some way to use a fingerprint reader to type passwords with > Gnome? (My guess is it isn't, and that some work would be needed at > the level of gksu and gdm.) > > I have no real point however, I only wished to inform you about this. > Cheers I filed an Ubuntu spec some months ago: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FingerprintAuthentication All the tools seem to be available already. As soon as the framework is in place, we'll adapt the GNOME stack to support it, creating a configuration and authentication UI, and gnome-keyring integration. I contacted the BioAPI packager Michael R. Crusoe some time ago to ask him whether he will split up the packages a bit, but I didn't get any response so far. From hadess@hadess.net Mon Jun 5 15:50:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9155B3B085A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:50:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26525-04 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:50:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lucifer.nerdfest.org (lucifer.nerdfest.org [216.243.209.218]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 426593B08B0 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:50:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.5] (cpc4-glfd1-0-0-cust751.glfd.cable.ntl.com [86.16.126.240]) (authenticated bits=0) by lucifer.nerdfest.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k55JoPoh009983 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:50:28 -0500 Subject: Re: [Usability] Fingerprint reader From: Bastien Nocera To: Maurizio Colucci In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:55:11 +0100 Message-Id: <1149537312.9198.9.camel@wyatt.hadess.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.5.90 (2.5.90-2.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.88.2/1512/Sun Jun 4 04:58:49 2006 on lucifer.nerdfest.org X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.594 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.006, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.594 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:50:45 -0000 On Sat, 2006-06-03 at 15:44 +0200, Maurizio Colucci wrote: > Hi, > Yesterday, when I had a friend of mine try the new Ubuntu, I had an > unpleasant suprise: he laughed at me when he saw me type the password > by hand. It seems he has been using a fingerprint reader under > Windows, for more than a year now. A combination of pam_keyring, and the pam modules Sven mentioned should do: http://www.hekanetworks.com/index.php/publisher/articleview/frmArticleID/25/staticId/31/ -- Bastien Nocera From glatzor@ubuntu.com Tue Jun 6 08:03:14 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEBF33B08AA for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:03:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19222-06 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:03:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail-out.m-online.net (mail-out.m-online.net [212.18.0.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6463D3B0979 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:02:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail01.m-online.net (svr21.m-online.net [192.168.3.149]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76F2672CC4 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:02:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pimpzkru.dyndns.org (ppp-62-245-208-121.mnet-online.de [62.245.208.121]) by mail.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CBC891424 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:02:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pimpzkru.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE831D2C38 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:16:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pimpzkru.dyndns.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (server.daheim [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32591-08 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:16:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from sebi-mac.daheim (sebi-mac.daheim [10.169.18.2]) by pimpzkru.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9B05D2C2C for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:16:31 +0200 (CEST) From: Sebastian Heinlein To: usability@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 14:01:40 +0200 Message-Id: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at pimpzkru X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.435 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.029, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.435 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Usability] Using nouns or verbs for the disclosure widgets X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:03:15 -0000 Hi, would you recommend to use a noun for the disclosure widgets e.g. "Details" or verbs e.g. "Show details"/"Hide details"? There is no corresponding section in the HIG. And both variants are in use currently. Regards, Sebastian From raeth.phox@gmail.com Tue Jun 6 08:19:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9826F3B08AA for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:19:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20110-07 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:19:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.172]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7004D3B0141 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:19:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id o2so1645338uge for ; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 05:18:59 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=tzLanvgM7DJ/K0gtFSV1wYYqtq8vky0oxlEnHI8oKGZofqP/pbVnOLV7L7iYyewPK9Gme2GZTeyuoMqaNb3XagvchsF2X4ZxJVbIEFZZLbxc9pw44qz/1fjm8q28B7cABezCyBe6Dbv4CVDkQNx8+mmYVGk7Jp+NK9CFUNLM1Tg= Received: by 10.78.18.1 with SMTP id 1mr1130306hur; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 05:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.50.15 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 05:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <878a8ff60606060518h749cc845x32a54fa2ded2650d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 13:18:59 +0100 From: Raeth Subject: Re: [Usability] Using nouns or verbs for the disclosure widgets Cc: usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.042 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.558, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.042 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:19:03 -0000 Hey, I'd go with "Show/Hide details", as it indicates whether the details are being currently shown or hidden. I think a verb would be more fitting with natural language. If I wanted to see the details, I'd want to "show details". I wouldn't go "details" to hide or show them. If they were on a tab you'd want the objective noun, like a title, but seeing as the disclosure widget is an action, I'd go with an action phrase. A verb would correspond with the such commonly used verbs as "save file" and "cancel". Raeth On 6/6/06, Sebastian Heinlein wrote: > Hi, > > would you recommend to use a noun for the disclosure widgets e.g. > "Details" or verbs e.g. "Show details"/"Hide details"? > > There is no corresponding section in the HIG. And both variants are in > use currently. > > Regards, > > Sebastian From Calum.Benson@Sun.COM Tue Jun 6 18:39:53 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81A1D3B01E8 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 18:39:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26404-10 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 18:39:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B08643B00E6 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 18:39:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-01.sun.com (d1-emea-01.sun.com [192.18.2.111] (may be forged)) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k56Mdlui019400 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 23:39:47 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-01.sun.com by d1-emea-01.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0G00H01HQ39T00@d1-emea-01.sun.com> (original mail from Calum.Benson@Sun.COM) for usability@gnome.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 23:39:46 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([213.202.177.89]) by d1-emea-01.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0G00IGYMYAOE00@d1-emea-01.sun.com>; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 23:39:46 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 23:39:43 +0100 From: Calum Benson Subject: Re: [Usability] Using nouns or verbs for the disclosure widgets In-reply-to: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> Sender: Calum.Benson@Sun.COM To: Sebastian Heinlein Message-id: <5FB97E1B-5914-4EB7-9674-ADDF1C47C503@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 22:39:53 -0000 On 6 Jun 2006, at 13:01, Sebastian Heinlein wrote: > would you recommend to use a noun for the disclosure widgets e.g. > "Details" or verbs e.g. "Show details"/"Hide details"? Hmm... out if interest I looked at the Apple guidelines, and it said that verbs were preferred, then illustrated the guideline with an example using a noun :) Seems like it's not just our HIG that has that kind of problem... http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/ OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGControls/chapter_18_section_7.html#//apple_ref/ doc/uid/TP30000359-TPXREF141 Personally, I've always labelled disclosure widgets in the same way I'd label a frame, i.e. with a noun (but without the bold text, of course). The direction of the arrow, in conjunction with the presence or absence of controls below it, seems sufficient to indicate the current shown/hidden status IMHO. And dynamically changing text is never much fun for screenreaders to keep up with either. > There is no corresponding section in the HIG. Yeah, that placeholder's been there a while :/ I really want to get stuck into the HIG post-GUADEC (assuming I'm not one of Sun's unlucky 5000....) Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:calum.benson@sun.com Java Desktop System Team http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Wed Jun 7 05:42:50 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13CA93B0C9A for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 05:42:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32165-01 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 05:42:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 339AA3B0AE7 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 05:42:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 7 Jun 2006 10:42:44 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 10:42:42 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan To: Calum Benson Subject: Re: [Usability] Using nouns or verbs for the disclosure widgets In-Reply-To: <5FB97E1B-5914-4EB7-9674-ADDF1C47C503@sun.com> Message-ID: References: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> <5FB97E1B-5914-4EB7-9674-ADDF1C47C503@sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 09:42:50 -0000 On Tue, 6 Jun 2006, Calum Benson wrote: [...] > Yeah, that placeholder's been there a while :/ I really want to get > stuck into the HIG post-GUADEC (assuming I'm not one of Sun's unlucky > 5000....) If you are among the unlucky hundreds it would be a serious loss to Gnome, since you seem to be the only usability professional actively helping on this list anymore. If there are other usability professionals here rather than enthusiastic amateurs please do feel free to (re)introduce yourselves. -- Alan From gnome-Usability@m.gmane.org Wed Jun 7 18:55:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11D1B3B0E64 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 18:55:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20656-09 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 18:55:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2131A3B0DED for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 18:55:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Fo6w6-0002OX-Iw for Usability@gnome.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:55:38 +0200 Received: from h-68-165-5-38.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.5.38]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:55:38 +0200 Received: from wohler by h-68-165-5-38.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:55:38 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: Usability@gnome.org From: Bill Wohler Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 15:55:24 -0700 Organization: Newt Software Lines: 20 Message-ID: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: h-68-165-5-38.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:VJ8cSiv38JexgyR7BZmb2CDKtXA= Sender: news X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 22:55:52 -0000 I think it is common to use C-PageUp and C-PageDown to move between tabs (for example, Galeon). Is this true? The latest version of GnuCash has tabs, and I'd like to be able to use keyboard navigation to move between them. Note that the tabs have different views using different GTK widgets. Currently, some of the tabs, such as the account tree view, allow C-M-PageUp and C-M-PageDown. Should the developers override the GtkTreeView widget so that C-PageUp and C-PageDown move between the tabs? Should this widget be fixed so that these keystrokes move between tabs by default? Or, something else entirely? I look forward to your thoughts. -- Bill Wohler http://www.newt.com/wohler/ GnuPG ID:610BD9AD Maintainer of comp.mail.mh FAQ and MH-E. If you're passed on the right, you're in the wrong lane. From newren@gmail.com Wed Jun 7 19:18:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDB033B0381 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:18:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22064-05 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:18:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.196]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B32933B019C for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:18:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so308940wxd for ; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 16:18:46 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=TWqobyNh87WUejW4RD35y63ZAvcLUk+QGiLvnvF+KPzTm9RHFZF5VjW7d7y89W/8kJt5+sbkOZFTBJUsJR1d8YM4amj/MEV+YRxnVBediNYQs9Km6z3RNHwua8n60ly83WjGy6d7j97OMrGnJZgPCTD6u1syejJPGylqaWkIzho= Received: by 10.70.73.15 with SMTP id v15mr1343030wxa; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 16:18:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.7 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 16:18:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 17:18:28 -0600 From: "Elijah Newren" To: "Bill Wohler" Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs In-Reply-To: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.575 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.575 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 23:18:49 -0000 On 6/7/06, Bill Wohler wrote: > I think it is common to use C-PageUp and C-PageDown to move between > tabs (for example, Galeon). Is this true? Also used by Mozilla, Firefox, Epiphany, X-Chat, and gnome-terminal, at least. I was planning on adding a keybinding based off it (C-A-PageUp/PageDown) for Metacity for multiscreen (non-xinerama) users to switch the focus between screens (see bug 101659). So, I'd say it's becoming fairly common. Would be nice if there were even greater consistency among apps in this area (gedit, for example, doesn't play along and it took me a while to figure out the keybinding). From Calum.Benson@Sun.COM Wed Jun 7 19:42:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5B033B0E85 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:42:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23635-02 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:42:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D516F3B036A for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:42:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-05.sun.com (d1-emea-05.sun.com [192.18.2.115] (may be forged)) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k57NgGIx020123 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 00:42:16 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-05.sun.com by d1-emea-05.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0I00K01DXE8100@d1-emea-05.sun.com> (original mail from Calum.Benson@Sun.COM) for Usability@gnome.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:42:15 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([194.125.112.30]) by d1-emea-05.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0I00I7RKIFLH30@d1-emea-05.sun.com>; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:42:15 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:42:11 +0100 From: Calum Benson Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs In-reply-to: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> Sender: Calum.Benson@Sun.COM To: Bill Wohler Message-id: <8D893175-CF50-4807-B113-1A7D97A2E36A@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 23:42:20 -0000 On 7 Jun 2006, at 23:55, Bill Wohler wrote: > I think it is common to use C-PageUp and C-PageDown to move between > tabs (for example, Galeon). Is this true? > > The latest version of GnuCash has tabs, and I'd like to be able to use > keyboard navigation to move between them. Note that the tabs have > different views using different GTK widgets. Currently, some of the > tabs, such as the account tree view, allow C-M-PageUp and > C-M-PageDown. > > Should the developers override the GtkTreeView widget so that > C-PageUp and C-PageDown move between the tabs? Should this widget be > fixed so that these keystrokes move between tabs by default? Or, > something else entirely? Well, Ctrl-Alt-PgUp/PgDn is the documented[1] alternative for places that Ctrl-PgUp/PgDn doesn't/can't work (i.e. because of the focused control using Ctrl-PgUp/PgDn itself). Unless we can come up with a plan for avoiding the collisions that require the use of Alt in some situations, I'd recommend sticking with the current consistent-if-a- little-clunky behaviour, rather than overriding it in some places but (inevitably) not others. Cheeri, Calum. [1] http://www.gnome.org/learn/access-guide/latest/ keynav-23.html#keynav-33 -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:calum.benson@sun.com Java Desktop System Team http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems From mpt@myrealbox.com Wed Jun 7 20:08:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 565953B04C8 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 20:08:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24932-06 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 20:08:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from leucothea.redline.site5.com (leucothea.redline.site5.com [216.118.97.161]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A22143B0384 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 20:08:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ool-44c0bc13.dyn.optonline.net ([68.192.188.19] helo=[192.168.0.5]) by leucothea.redline.site5.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.52) id 1Fo84Q-0007No-7s; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 20:08:18 -0400 In-Reply-To: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> References: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <83a57a3908c9daadda5812fafca772a5@myrealbox.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Matthew Paul Thomas Subject: Re: [Usability] Using nouns or verbs for the disclosure widgets Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 20:07:37 -0400 To: Gnome usability X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.623) X-Antivirus-Scanner: This message has been scanned by ClamAV. X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - leucothea.redline.site5.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnome.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - myrealbox.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:08:27 -0000 On Jun 6, 2006, at 8:01 AM, Sebastian Heinlein wrote: > ... > would you recommend to use a noun for the disclosure widgets e.g. > "Details" or verbs e.g. "Show details"/"Hide details"? > ... Hi Sebastian I suggest making the label a summary of the values of the disclosed controls, if practical, not just a description. "Details" is the least informative example of a description, and may be appropriate if you want the expander to be very unobtrusive. But a more informative label may reduce the need for people to expand the section at all. For example, |> Progress details which expands to __ \/ Progress details Time remaining: about 11 minutes Progress: 15 of 29 items Copying: vilanova_presentation.ogg Size: 10.0 MB of 45.0 MB is much less useful than |> Time remaining: about 11 minutes which expands to __ \/ Time remaining: about 11 minutes Progress: 15 of 29 items Copying: vilanova_presentation.ogg Size: 10.0 MB of 45.0 MB Conversely, a more informative label may give a clue of unusual things that you set accidentally, or that you set long ago and then forgot about. For example: __ \/ Custom style sheet (2 rules active) __________________________________________________________ |:link, :visited {text-decoration: underline !important} | |a[href^="javascript:"] {color: green !important} | | | |__________________________________________________________| Switching between "Show Foo" and "Hide Foo" would make the function of the control more obvious, but it would also make the label jump around between collapsed and expanded states. It also would result in ugly repetition where several expander controls were next to each other. For example, repeating "Show" Printing the heading for each in a formatting palette would expandable area by itself is look nasty: much easier to scan: ___________________________ ___________________________ |(X) Formatting (-)| |(X) Formatting (-)| |___________________________| |___________________________| |_>_Show_Font_Settings______| |_>_Font____________________| |_>_Show_Paragraph_Settings_| |_>_Paragraph_______________| |_>_Show_List_Settings______| |_>_List____________________| |_>_Show_Border_Settings____| |_>_Border__________________| |_>_Show_Page_Settings______| |_>_Page____________________| Cheers -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ From nigel.tao.gnome@gmail.com Thu Jun 8 02:08:21 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B93C23B0585 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 02:08:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10570-08 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 02:08:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.229]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8F183B0576 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 02:08:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 50so362302wri for ; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 23:08:17 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=G3ca7jhamDoCoDkkhkKhrUk2Q8C8QWNKTdZLp99+4qZYcnpQa0AU5XGm6ozUs1WCS3EzZwoGN55kTdpnL2dlPPIx9cpa5uYOGLhRDC8u+PuWuWFWj4zh5KNrGruUt74CaE1J7kC758zhIHElrqc9XnBPALEbQIL98Mb9LntRxtE= Received: by 10.64.47.19 with SMTP id u19mr1451658qbu; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 23:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.214.18 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 23:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9188fcea0606072308n35ce5008xcd047c8cd7fca53d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 16:08:16 +1000 From: "Nigel Tao" To: "Elijah Newren" Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs In-Reply-To: <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.569 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.031, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.569 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org, Bill Wohler X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 06:08:21 -0000 > Would be nice if there were even > greater consistency among apps in this area (gedit, for example, > doesn't play along and it took me a while to figure out the > keybinding). Somewhat tangential, I recently wrote a gedit plugin so that C-PageUp and C-PageDown switches between tabs. C-A-PageUp and C-A-PageDown still works, too. http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gedit-list/2006-May/msg00039.html From nudrema@gmail.com Thu Jun 8 02:10:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 508793B0564 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 02:10:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10923-04 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 02:10:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swip.net (mailfe03.swip.net [212.247.154.65]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C74D73B0576 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 02:10:38 -0400 (EDT) X-T2-Posting-ID: Ee7YIbSG3O5rNcT4cGADretWTWrDEjpwS9FwzyhFhzk= X-Cloudmark-Score: 0.000000 [] Received: from [83.182.30.136] (HELO [10.0.0.13]) by mailfe03.swip.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.8) with ESMTP id 217242419 for Usability@gnome.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 08:10:36 +0200 Message-ID: <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 08:10:33 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Steve_Fr=E9cinaux?= User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060522) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.964 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.434, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_NEUTRAL=1.069] X-Spam-Score: -1.964 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 06:10:41 -0000 Elijah Newren wrote: > On 6/7/06, Bill Wohler wrote: >> I think it is common to use C-PageUp and C-PageDown to move between >> tabs (for example, Galeon). Is this true? > > Also used by Mozilla, Firefox, Epiphany, X-Chat, and gnome-terminal, > at least. Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown is the accelerator the HIG recommend for the Gnome desktop. > I was planning on adding a keybinding based off it > (C-A-PageUp/PageDown) for Metacity for multiscreen (non-xinerama) > users to switch the focus between screens (see bug 101659). So, I'd > say it's becoming fairly common. Before doing that remember that Ctrl+Alt+PageUp/PageDown is the fallback shortcut for switching tabs that is used when Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown is not available. It's stated in the HIG (iirc) and is used, for instance, by gedit. > Would be nice if there were even > greater consistency among apps in this area (gedit, for example, > doesn't play along and it took me a while to figure out the > keybinding). Gedit suffers the same problem than Bill's software: the Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown key combination is eaten by GtkTextView, at Gtk level (for going to the next/previous paragraph, iirc). The actual accelerator will be more discoverable in further gedit versions since there is now a menu entry for switching tab (as there is one in epiphany, for instance) From lool+gnome@via.ecp.fr Thu Jun 8 15:47:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 617B03B04B1 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 15:47:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00800-04 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 15:47:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx0.bpl-group.org (mx0.bpl-group.org [195.115.71.69]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D15523B0766 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 15:47:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bee.dooz.org (levallois.dooz.org [81.57.180.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "lminier.people.bpl-group.org", Issuer "BPL Group People Certification Authority" (verified OK)) by mx0.bpl-group.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BDAEC4C9; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 21:47:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: by bee.dooz.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4E5D24F02FA; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 21:47:22 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 21:47:22 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lo=EFc?= Minier To: usability@gnome.org, 371882@bugs.debian.org Message-ID: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.575 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.024, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.575 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 19:47:33 -0000 Hi, Michael Gilbert (michael.s.gilbert -at- gmail.com) explained his experience when introducing GNOME to people otherwise running Windows in Debian bug http://bugs.debian.org/371882: """ at work the other day a couple windows-locked coworkers of mine were attempting to use a fedora system. they were attempting to figure out if a particular application was available on the system. they had no idea where to go to do a file search (they expected it to be in the start menu, but gave up after they found it wasn't under applications). so then they tried nautilus, but couldn't figure out where to go. they dropped down to / where they were even more dumbfounded. a comment was "what are all these directories and how am i supposed to find anything in this mess." i suggested looking in /usr/local and /opt but both came up empty. i suggested that they try the search under the gnome places menu, at which point they were able to find some similarity to their expectations. at first they used the defaults and only searched in their home directory (inadvertently assuming that the file must not be on the disk even though their search path was too limited), at which point i said you should search from the / directory. they opened the gnome file selector, and could not figure out how to pick / (in fact they didn't understand the concept of /, or how it relates to something like c:). i also didn't know how to select / directly from the gnome file selector this, but eventually figured out if you select the topmost directory breakout at the top of the file selector that you will get / as your selection. this is very non-obvious and needs to be fixed. so they tried their search, which completed *way* too fast for their expectations (likely because they are used to windows searches taking significant time to search an entire disk because file lists are not cached as scrollkeeper does). so i did a "find / | grep fname" which also came up empty to indicate to them that indeed the file they were looking for was not on the system. at one point another comment was "it seems like they do things differently just to be different," referring to the gnome desktop in general vs windows. anyway, hope you can find some useful bits from the mindset virgin gnome users. need more details? just ask. """ I initially tried opening a discussion at , but was suggested that this list would be a better place. (Please keep 371882@bdo in copy and add 371882-submitter@bdo if you want to copy Michael Gilbert.) Bye, -- Loïc Minier From bjourne@gmail.com Fri Jun 9 11:32:25 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E57533B0147 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:32:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02538-08 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:32:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.207]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E55FB3B02F7 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:32:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so654060wxd for ; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 08:32:21 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=McMsr9UbsQrkheYyfxiAcapOm/Xuc8Of7xlng/xz9cIKh1tbNMbqtyQLEGG11aQZzS4UMFABCCwUeMApOsqGEyjlKyNjv31WRTSfb8ug64jiJ6+CK1KrhYm1K4yxwDY7xqzGIerl00hQwi6n43htIWUBOSyNAcATL6NHQDUEG4A= Received: by 10.70.62.1 with SMTP id k1mr3581069wxa; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 08:32:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.115.6 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 08:32:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:32:19 +0200 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?BJ=F6rn_Lindqvist?=" To: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs In-Reply-To: <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.496 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.027, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001, TW_MV=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.496 X-Spam-Level: Cc: X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 15:32:25 -0000 > Gedit suffers the same problem than Bill's software: the > Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown key combination is eaten by GtkTextView, at Gtk > level (for going to the next/previous paragraph, iirc). The actual Wouldn't the right solution then be to fix GtkTextView so that it doesn't steal Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown? --=20 mvh Bj=F6rn From gnome-Usability@m.gmane.org Fri Jun 9 11:50:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 009143B032D for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:50:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03783-02 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:50:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE4163B024A for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:50:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1FojFO-00052n-5Z for Usability@gnome.org; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 17:50:06 +0200 Received: from h-68-165-4-198.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.4.198]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 17:50:06 +0200 Received: from wohler by h-68-165-4-198.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 17:50:06 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: Usability@gnome.org From: Bill Wohler Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 08:49:10 -0700 Organization: Newt Software Lines: 15 Message-ID: <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: h-68-165-4-198.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:rY1IfAkLd+KrTmPRanzn/dE9Bdc= Sender: news X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: [Usability] Re: Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 15:50:33 -0000 "BJörn Lindqvist" writes: >> Gedit suffers the same problem than Bill's software: the >> Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown key combination is eaten by GtkTextView, at Gtk >> level (for going to the next/previous paragraph, iirc). The actual > > Wouldn't the right solution then be to fix GtkTextView so that it > doesn't steal Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown? And GtkTreeView and possibly others. That's what I was thinking. Doable? -- Bill Wohler http://www.newt.com/wohler/ GnuPG ID:610BD9AD Maintainer of comp.mail.mh FAQ and MH-E. If you're passed on the right, you're in the wrong lane. From Calum.Benson@Sun.COM Fri Jun 9 11:59:21 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D20323B02F7 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:59:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04251-01 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:59:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD6AD3B024A for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:59:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-01.sun.com ([192.18.2.111]) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k59FxGjj008284 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:59:18 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-01.sun.com by d1-emea-01.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0L00D01NQKYK00@d1-emea-01.sun.com> (original mail from Calum.Benson@Sun.COM) for Usability@gnome.org; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:59:16 +0100 (BST) Received: from vpn-129-150-116-25.UK.Sun.COM ([129.150.116.25]) by d1-emea-01.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0L008BXOER2330@d1-emea-01.sun.com>; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:59:16 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:59:14 +0100 From: Calum Benson Subject: Re: [Usability] Re: Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs In-reply-to: <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> Sender: Calum.Benson@Sun.COM To: Bill Wohler Message-id: <1149868755.7852.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Organization: Sun Microsystems Ireland Ltd. MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.582 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.582 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 15:59:22 -0000 On Fri, 2006-06-09 at 08:49 -0700, Bill Wohler wrote: > "BJörn Lindqvist" writes: > > >> Gedit suffers the same problem than Bill's software: the > >> Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown key combination is eaten by GtkTextView, at Gtk > >> level (for going to the next/previous paragraph, iirc). The actual > > > > Wouldn't the right solution then be to fix GtkTextView so that it > > doesn't steal Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown? > > And GtkTreeView and possibly others. That's what I was thinking. Doable? More than likely, but only if you can suggest alternative keybindings for those existing TextView/TreeView functions that are sufficiently consistent/discoverable. Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:calum.benson@sun.com Java Desktop System Group http://ie.sun.com +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems From gnome-Usability@m.gmane.org Fri Jun 9 12:19:37 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ECF33B1112 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 12:19:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05786-06 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 12:19:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FC813B1120 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 12:19:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1FojhH-0003Ev-L0 for Usability@gnome.org; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 18:18:55 +0200 Received: from h-68-165-4-198.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.4.198]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 18:18:55 +0200 Received: from wohler by h-68-165-4-198.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 18:18:55 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: Usability@gnome.org From: Bill Wohler Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 09:18:45 -0700 Organization: Newt Software Lines: 27 Message-ID: <87slme715m.fsf@olgas.newt.com> References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <1149868755.7852.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: h-68-165-4-198.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:BstvWzstfMaA5FgcQdtcEdthMak= Sender: news X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.597 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.004, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.597 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: [Usability] Re: Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:19:37 -0000 Calum Benson writes: > On Fri, 2006-06-09 at 08:49 -0700, Bill Wohler wrote: >> "BJörn Lindqvist" writes: >> >> >> Gedit suffers the same problem than Bill's software: the >> >> Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown key combination is eaten by GtkTextView, at Gtk >> >> level (for going to the next/previous paragraph, iirc). The actual >> > >> > Wouldn't the right solution then be to fix GtkTextView so that it >> > doesn't steal Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown? >> >> And GtkTreeView and possibly others. That's what I was thinking. Doable? > > More than likely, but only if you can suggest alternative keybindings > for those existing TextView/TreeView functions that are sufficiently > consistent/discoverable. Well, I tried C-PageUp/Down in the GtkTreeView widget (in GnuCash), and I have no idea what it's doing. It's sort of like PageUp/Down, but it doesn't move the screen the same amount. Suffice to say, I would not mourn its loss. -- Bill Wohler http://www.newt.com/wohler/ GnuPG ID:610BD9AD Maintainer of comp.mail.mh FAQ and MH-E. If you're passed on the right, you're in the wrong lane. From mpt@myrealbox.com Fri Jun 9 16:56:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC7DA3B01AB for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:56:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20116-10 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:56:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from leucothea.redline.site5.com (leucothea.redline.site5.com [216.118.97.161]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11A453B0122 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:56:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ool-44c0bc13.dyn.optonline.net ([68.192.188.19] helo=[192.168.0.5]) by leucothea.redline.site5.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.52) id 1Foo1c-00028w-53; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:56:12 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> References: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Matthew Paul Thomas Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:38:35 -0400 To: Gnome usability X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.623) X-Antivirus-Scanner: This message has been scanned by ClamAV. X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - leucothea.redline.site5.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnome.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - myrealbox.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Cc: michael.s.gilbert@gmail.com X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 20:56:18 -0000 On Jun 8, 2006, at 3:47 PM, Lo=EFc Minier wrote: > ... > """ > at work the other day a couple windows-locked coworkers of mine were > attempting to use a fedora system. they were attempting to figure out > if a particular application was available on the system. they had no > idea where to go to do a file search (they expected it to be in the > start menu, but gave up after they found it wasn't under = applications). Hardly surprising: a file search definitely isn't a "place". It's not=20 an application either, but at least "Applications" looks vaguely like a=20= Start menu. > so then they tried nautilus, but couldn't figure out where to go. =20 > they dropped down to / where they were even more dumbfounded. a=20 > comment was "what are all these directories and how am i supposed to=20= > find anything in this mess." That problem will continue until Fedora begins using human-readable=20 directory names (like GoboLinux, Mac OS, and Windows all do to varying=20= extents). > ... > i suggested that they try the search under the gnome places menu, at > which point they were able to find some similarity to their > expectations. at first they used the defaults and only searched in > their home directory (inadvertently assuming that the file must not be > on the disk even though their search path was too limited), Again, they were right and the OS was wrong. The default should be to=20 search everything you can access, just like in Web search engines,=20 because (a) you are likely to be searching for programs, which usually=20= aren't in your home folder, and (b) searching everything will usually=20 be quicker (as you suggested later) than choosing a correct scope then=20= searching within that. > at which point i said you should search from the / directory. they=20 > opened the gnome file selector, and could not figure out how to pick /=20= > (in fact they didn't understand the concept of /, or how it relates to=20= > something like c:). i also didn't know how to select / directly from=20= > the gnome file selector this, but eventually figured out if you select=20= > the topmost directory breakout at the top of the file selector that=20= > you will get / as your selection. this is very non-obvious and needs=20= > to be fixed. Fortunately the dialog doesn't use the inscrutable "/" terminology, but=20= "File System" isn't much better, and the icon for it seems to be a=20 harmonica. Unfortunately there isn't really any good name for=20 "collection of obscurely-named things that has your files hidden in it=20= somewhere, and your programs in it spread across several other places,=20= but which can't be called your hard disk because it has your other=20 drives hidden inside it too". > so they tried their search, which completed *way* too fast for their > expectations (likely because they are used to windows searches taking > significant time to search an entire disk because file lists are not > cached as scrollkeeper does). > ... This is a bug in that while the Find tool tells you "No files found",=20 it does not mention what it was searching for, so there is no way to=20 distinguish between a search that has finished with no results and one=20= that hasn't started yet. Thanks for your interesting report. --=20 Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/= From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Sun Jun 11 11:05:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C6083B0088 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 11:05:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15678-04 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 11:05:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AB3C83B0084 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 11:05:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 11 Jun 2006 16:04:32 +0100 (BST) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 16:04:32 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lo=EFc?= Minier Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" In-Reply-To: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> Message-ID: References: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 15:05:20 -0000 On Thu, 8 Jun 2006, [iso-8859-1] Lo=EFc Minier wrote: > Michael Gilbert (michael.s.gilbert -at- gmail.com) explained his > experience when introducing GNOME to people otherwise running Windows in > Debian bug http://bugs.debian.org/371882: > """ > at work the other day a couple windows-locked coworkers of mine were > attempting to use a fedora system. they were attempting to figure out > if a particular application was available on the system. I do think things would be easier for windows users (in fact easier than windows) if Gnome were using a single main menu on the bottom left corner which is what Novell are doing. Strangely enough it was Novell/Ximian who proposed the two panel layout in the first place even though they have since abandoned it (this was discussed quite recently but I dont expect the two panel layout to go away anytime soon). The run dialog can be useful in this case. If you know the application name and type it in then if it is installed the icon will appear in the dialog and when you hit okay the application will run. If you do not know the application name (why not?) the run dialog (or some versions of it at least) have an expander which opens to show a flat list of available applications. I cannot say about Debian but while using Ubuntu I did notice I sometimes applications do not appear in menus right after you install them but a logout and log back in usually sorts that out. I'm trying to think why you might need to search for these applications in the first place rather than choose from what is available in the menus. A package manager like Synaptic might be a good way to check what programs are installed, it also includes a search tool. > idea where to go to do a file search (they expected it to be in the > start menu, but gave up after they found it wasn't under applications). A file search is intended for documents and other user files If you are looking for programs you are not expected to use the file search. > so then they tried nautilus, but couldn't figure out where to go. they > dropped down to / where they were even more dumbfounded. a comment was > "what are all these directories and how am i supposed to find anything > in this mess." Not much change from Microsoft then. ;P > i suggested looking in /usr/local and /opt but both came up empty. If you have given up on the Desktop and had to resort to the command line then a good way to find things is using the "locate" utitlity. When hunting for programs the command "apropos" can be very useful too (especially on BSD where the man pages are better). > i suggested that they try the search under the gnome places menu, at > which point they were able to find some similarity to their > expectations. at first they used the defaults and only searched in > their home directory (inadvertently assuming that the file must not be > on the disk even though their search path was too limited), at which > point i said you should search from the / directory. they opened the > gnome file selector, and could not figure out how to pick / (in fact > they didn't understand the concept of /, or how it relates to something > like c:). i also didn't know how to select / directly from the gnome > file selector this, but eventually figured out if you select the topmost > directory breakout at the top of the file selector that you will get / > as your selection. this is very non-obvious and needs to be fixed. so > they tried their search, which completed *way* too fast for their > expectations (likely because they are used to windows searches taking > significant time to search an entire disk because file lists are not > cached as scrollkeeper does). so i did a "find / | grep fname" which > also came up empty to indicate to them that indeed the file they were > looking for was not on the system. > > at one point another comment was "it seems like they do things > differently just to be different," referring to the gnome desktop in > general vs windows. *cough* *cough* splutter! Understatement. Things have gotten better and are getting better all the time, file bugs where you see them. At least horrible anachronisms like the "Druid dialogs" are on the way out (that really was a case of being different from Wizards just for the sake of being different). Sincerely Alan Horkan Inkscape http://inkscape.org Abiword http://www.abisource.com Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/ From Calum.Benson@Sun.COM Tue Jun 13 12:08:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B31DC3B000A for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:08:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29211-06 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:08:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0934E3B000C for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:08:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-10.sun.com (d1-emea-10.sun.com [192.18.2.120] (may be forged)) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5DG73iU003213 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:07:03 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-10.sun.com by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0T00B013ET6M00@d1-emea-10.sun.com> (original mail from Calum.Benson@Sun.COM) for Usability@gnome.org; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:07:03 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([129.150.116.239]) by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0T00H9Z3FRHT70@d1-emea-10.sun.com>; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:07:03 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:06:57 +0100 From: Calum Benson Subject: Re: [Usability] Re: Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs In-reply-to: <17538.1149869665@olgas.newt.com> Sender: Calum.Benson@Sun.COM To: Bill Wohler Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <1149868755.7852.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <17538.1149869665@olgas.newt.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.582 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.582 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 16:08:13 -0000 On 9 Jun 2006, at 17:14, Bill Wohler wrote: > > Well, I tried C-PageUp/Down in the GtkTreeView widget (in GnuCash), > and > I have no idea what it's doing. In a tree view, Ctrl+PgUp/PgDn should be moving focus to the item at the top or bottom of the current view; in other controls, it's the shortcut for scrolling left/right: http://www.gnome.org/learn/access-guide/latest/keynav-23.html#keynav-35 If it's doing something else, it's either a bug, or it's been over- ridden by a developer who thinks they know better :) Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:calum.benson@sun.com Java Desktop System Team http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems From Calum.Benson@Sun.COM Wed Jun 14 13:26:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F32D3B0156 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 13:26:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26510-02 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 13:26:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60F1D3B0135 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 13:26:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-02.sun.com (d1-emea-02.sun.com [192.18.2.112] (may be forged)) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5EHPMb5010739 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 18:25:22 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-02.sun.com by d1-emea-02.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0V00K011HFZ600@d1-emea-02.sun.com> (original mail from Calum.Benson@Sun.COM) for Usability@gnome.org; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 18:25:22 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([129.150.116.135]) by d1-emea-02.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0V00FZN1Q9TE10@d1-emea-02.sun.com>; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 18:25:22 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 18:25:16 +0100 From: Calum Benson In-reply-to: <3515.1150215756@olgas.newt.com> Sender: Calum.Benson@Sun.COM To: Bill Wohler Message-id: <645F3922-742E-4B5E-8D69-37D56C69E503@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <1149868755.7852.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <17538.1149869665@olgas.newt.com> <3515.1150215756@olgas.newt.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.583 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.015, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.583 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 17:26:46 -0000 On 13 Jun 2006, at 17:22, Bill Wohler wrote: > Calum Benson wrote: > >> On 9 Jun 2006, at 17:14, Bill Wohler wrote: >>> >>> Well, I tried C-PageUp/Down in the GtkTreeView widget (in GnuCash), >>> and I have no idea what it's doing. >> >> In a tree view, Ctrl+PgUp/PgDn should be moving focus to the item at >> the top or bottom of the current view; in other controls, it's the >> shortcut for scrolling left/right: >> >> http://www.gnome.org/learn/access-guide/latest/ >> keynav-23.html#keynav-35 >> >> If it's doing something else, it's either a bug, or it's been over- >> ridden by a developer who thinks they know better :) > > Thanks, Calum. Well, that's not what I'm seeing. A GnuCash developer > told me that he wouldn't overwrite the GtkTreeView bindings to allow > C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs so it's unlikely that it has been > overridden. A puzzler indeed. I'll mention this to the developers. > > I still think that the HIG should specify C-PageUp/Down for moving > between tabs and that other widgets should not use this binding. I'd agree that this has been a bugbear long enough that we should probably try a bit harder to fix it properly. The controls that use Ctrl+PgUp/PgDn just to move focus could possibly just do without (by default, at least); you can always hit Ctrl+up/down a few times instead. The ones that use them for scrolling left/right might be trickier, but I'll need to try and put together a complete list before I try and figure something out. Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:calum.benson@sun.com Java Desktop System Team http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems From michael.s.gilbert@gmail.com Fri Jun 16 22:20:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D0D43B033A for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2006 22:20:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32034-02 for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2006 22:20:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.196]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC9A03B02DB for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2006 22:20:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id h29so524273wxd for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2006 19:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.52.10 with SMTP id z10mr4997505wxz; Fri, 16 Jun 2006 19:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.65.5 with HTTP; Fri, 16 Jun 2006 19:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <8e2a98be0606161919x9a20c7dld5fc3a4715960f2b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 22:19:21 -0400 From: "Michael Gilbert" To: horkana@maths.tcd.ie In-Reply-To: <8e2a98be0606161901j5c6edfdcj3acd734a2ee19751@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> <8e2a98be0606111426w7d6407fdj68c34573295b317@mail.gmail.com> <8e2a98be0606161901j5c6edfdcj3acd734a2ee19751@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 09:59:24 -0400 Cc: usability@gnome.org, 371882@bugs.debian.org Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 02:20:40 -0000 Alan Horkan wrote: >The run dialog can be useful in this case. If you know the application >name and type it in then if it is installed the icon will appear in the >dialog and when you hit okay the application will run. If you do not know >the application name (why not?) the run dialog (or some versions of it at >least) have an expander which opens to show a flat list of available >applications. The users were having trouble finding a "find files" application in the applications menu. The did not even attempt to find the program they were looking for in the applications menu. >A package manager like Synaptic might be a good way to check what programs >are installed, it also includes a search tool. Synaptic is a confusing mess. If I were a new user, I would totally avoid it. I still avoid it...but only because I apt-get is so much easier and direct. > A file search is intended for documents and other user files > If you are looking for programs you are not expected to use the file > search. I don't think we should be in the game of telling the user how she is to use her computer. We should be making it as intuitive and broadly useful for the user to user her computer. If she expects to search for executables or system files (due to her poor os upbringing) then it should be perfectly reasonable and obvious for her to do so. we should not be forcing anyone to learn the unix way (find and locate). well maybe it would be useful for the find dialog to say something like, this is what i'm doing 'find / 2>/dev/null | grep fname' click here to learn more about how to use the power of the unix shell to enhance your computing expertise. thanks you for your thoughts. mike From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Sun Jun 18 13:08:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A9E93B0BF5 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 13:08:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04550-02 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 13:08:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 128B53B00B2 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 13:08:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 18 Jun 2006 18:07:14 +0100 (BST) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 18:07:14 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <8e2a98be0606161919x9a20c7dld5fc3a4715960f2b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: References: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> <8e2a98be0606111426w7d6407fdj68c34573295b317@mail.gmail.com> <8e2a98be0606161901j5c6edfdcj3acd734a2ee19751@mail.gmail.com> <8e2a98be0606161919x9a20c7dld5fc3a4715960f2b@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 17:08:12 -0000 [Removed CC's.] On Fri, 16 Jun 2006, Michael Gilbert wrote: > Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 22:19:21 -0400 > From: Michael Gilbert > To: horkana@maths.tcd.ie > Cc: 371882@bugs.debian.org, usability@gnome.org > Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes > with gnome virgins" > > Alan Horkan wrote: > >The run dialog can be useful in this case. If you know the application > >name and type it in then if it is installed the icon will appear in the > >dialog and when you hit okay the application will run. If you do not know > >the application name (why not?) the run dialog (or some versions of it at > >least) have an expander which opens to show a flat list of available > >applications. > > The users were having trouble finding a "find files" application in > the applications menu. The did not even attempt to find the program > they were looking for in the applications menu. Accomodating users is one thing but it is difficult to help users who are unwilling to even look through the Applications menu. Having said that Novell have their own redesigned setup (which may already be available) which does in fact include a search widget directly in the main menu. Mockups can be seen here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/gamehack/sets/1506658/ > >A package manager like Synaptic might be a good way to check what programs > >are installed, it also includes a search tool. > > Synaptic is a confusing mess. I see you added Debian to the CC list, since Synaptic is a Debian only program not Gnome I will let them comment. > avoid it. I still avoid it...but only because I apt-get is so much > easier and direct. Ubuntu inlcude a simpler frontend to Synaptic which makes things easier for basic adding and removing of programs, you might want to try it. > > A file search is intended for documents and other user files > > > If you are looking for programs you are not expected to use the file > > search. > > I don't think we should be in the game of telling the user how she is > to use her computer. I dont disagree. I was describing how thing are and how best to work around them rather than the ideal situation. The _intention_ of the designers was that find tool would be for finding documents rather than programs. > We should be making it as intuitive and broadly useful for the user to > user her computer. If she expects to search for executables or system > files (due to her poor os upbringing) then it should be perfectly > reasonable and obvious for her to do so. we should not be forcing > anyone to learn the unix way (find and locate). Since you had already given up on the graphical user interface I was explaining how to get more out of the command line, I would not have mentioned it otherwise and I believe if a user feels like they "need" to user the command line the real issue is the Desktop needs to be improved. > well maybe it would be useful for the find dialog to say something like, > this is what i'm doing 'find / 2>/dev/null | grep fname' click here to It is good to try and find ways to reduce the learning curve of the command line but I'm not sure this idea would really work well as part of the graphical user interface. I do think it would be great to have a page in the documentation of the Find tool explaining or introducing the command line alternatives. > learn more about how to use the power of the unix shell to enhance your > computing expertise. > > thanks you for your thoughts. Sincerely Alan Horkan Inkscape http://inkscape.org Abiword http://www.abisource.com Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/ From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Mon Jun 19 02:45:53 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C6963B0D43 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 02:45:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28820-04 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 02:45:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.203]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3E4573B0DC0 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 02:45:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 55516 invoked by uid 60001); 19 Jun 2006 06:45:00 -0000 Message-ID: <20060619064500.55514.qmail@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.215.111.236] by web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 07:45:00 BST Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 07:45:00 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Alan Horkan In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.667 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.715, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.667 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 06:45:53 -0000 --- Alan Horkan wrote: > It is good to try and find ways to reduce the > learning curve of the > command line but I'm not sure this idea would really > work well as part of > the graphical user interface. I do think it would > be great to have a page > in the documentation of the Find tool explaining or > introducing the > command line alternatives. I think the find tool docs briefly mention which unix commands are used behind the GUI. However, is the find tool made redundant by the new Nautilus searching? And if not, how are the two meant to work together? ___________________________________________________________ Try the all-new Yahoo! Mail. "The New Version is radically easier to use" – The Wall Street Journal http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Mon Jun 19 18:53:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC2903B02BD for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 18:53:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05746-09 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 18:53:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 653113B0105 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 18:53:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 19 Jun 2006 23:51:42 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 23:51:41 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20060619064500.55514.qmail@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: References: <20060619064500.55514.qmail@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:53:07 -0000 On Mon, 19 Jun 2006, Joachim Noreiko wrote: > > be great to have a page > > in the documentation of the Find tool explaining or > > introducing the > > command line alternatives. > > I think the find tool docs briefly mention which unix > commands are used behind the GUI. good to know > However, is the find tool made redundant by the new > Nautilus searching? And if not, how are the two meant > to work together? I doubt it. I'd expect the find tool to include more advanced options and for the built in tool to keep it simple. There might also be issues with the underlying technologies (Beagle?). I don't know for sure. -- Alan H. From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Tue Jun 20 03:34:38 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81B703B027D for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 03:34:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32616-04 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 03:34:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.202]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AA7EC3B0279 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 03:34:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 32953 invoked by uid 60001); 20 Jun 2006 07:33:12 -0000 Message-ID: <20060620073312.32951.qmail@web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.203.12.149] by web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:33:12 BST Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:33:12 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Alan Horkan In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.471 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.519, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.471 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: [Usability] Two types of find (Was: search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins") X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 07:34:38 -0000 --- Alan Horkan wrote: > > > However, is the find tool made redundant by the > new > > Nautilus searching? And if not, how are the two > meant > > to work together? > > I doubt it. I'd expect the find tool to include > more advanced options and > for the built in tool to keep it simple. There > might also be issues > with the underlying technologies (Beagle?). I don't > know for sure. Sure, I can see that operationally there are reasons to have both tool. But with our user hats on for a second -- why are there two find tools, accessed in different ways, with different-looking interfaces? It's confusing, and doesn't give off the joined-up feel that GNOME should have. So -- how can we join them up? ___________________________________________________________ The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html From mystilleef@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:03:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1667E3B058E for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:03:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10655-07 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:03:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.173]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D3AD3B0584 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:03:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id o2so3184611uge for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:03:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.67.103.7 with SMTP id f7mr3463065ugm; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:03:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.15 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:03:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:03:43 -0400 From: Mystilleef To: Usability@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.647 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.605, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.558, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.647 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:03:48 -0000 Hello, My application is a GUI designed especially for GNOME. Thus, when my application is launched, I register it with the GNOME libraries and then instruct the kernel to create a separate process for the application. The procedure is called forking. The effect of this is that when my application is launched from a shell terminal, the kernel detaches it from the shell terminal's process, therefore making the application run in its own process. Apparently, this has offended some geeks who argue I am breaking some pointless UNIX convention. Their argument is that most (GNOME) applications do not detach from the shell terminal when run from it. And by detaching from the terminal, not only am I creating inconsistencies, but also creating an element of surprise. My response is that this behavior is a hold back from the days when UNIX had no GUI and when almost all applications that ran on it were console applications. The only environment a console application can run in is in a shell environment. That is why console applications have every right to "hug" the shell terminal. Also blocking the shell terminal is the only way console applications can recieve input from users. Graphic user applications, especially the ones designed for "desktop environments" have virtually no reason to be bound to a shell terminal's process. In particular, the only environment a GNOME application should be bound to is the GNOME desktop environment. And I believe you do that by registering with the GNOME and/or freedesktop libraries. In fact, I argue it is bad practice for GUI applications to be bound to a shell terminals process because if the terminal's process dies for any reason the application(s) bound to that terminal dies along with it. In my early linux years, I have lost documents this way. I launched several via the shell terminal, and then I forgetfully or accidentally close the shell terminal's window. Miraculously, all my applications disappear. Also, most graphic user applications are not console applications and as such the life-cycle of such applications should not be determined or controlled or constrained by shell terminal's process running in the sight of users that can easily be killed accidentally or otherwise. The geeks' counter responses ranged from questioning my competence as a shell terminal user, to suggestions to reconfigure my shell properties, to changing my shell environment, to connecting my application to the kernel's KILL signal so it can save its state before dying, among several funny comments. In fact, there's only one reason to provide an option for not detaching. Some console applications may need to pipe their result to my application. And my application needs to be connected to the shell's process for that to be happen successfully. There are many other silly UNIX conventions that are a hold back from yesteryears which bite us in the behind today. I recommend the "UNIX Haters Handbook" for an exhaustive listing. Yet many people religiously clinge to them without reason. I feel this issue is one them. Is it advisable to encourage developers via the HIG to avoid hugging the terminal. I mean, apart from the fact that it is just pointless especially for GUI apps, there's also the possibility of losing applications bound to the terminal's process when the terminal quits for whatever reasons. And why on earth would anyone want to bind a GUI app to the process of another user visible application? I bring this up here because the geeks say I am trying to "fix" the problem the wrong way. They insist that the problem, if at all it is one should be "fixed" at a global level outside my application. I'm guessing perhaps at a library level. So, I welcome your comments and thought on the issue. My opinion is that the default behavior for GUI applications, GNOME in particular, is to detach from the shell terminal, while an option to prevent detachment should be provided for those who need it. A positive side effect of my suggestion is that it frees the terminal to be used by other applications designed for terminal usage. Cheers From mike@mike-burns.com Tue Jun 20 16:18:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C7FF3B0073 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:18:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11690-09 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:18:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mike-burns.com (mike-burns.com [64.105.111.66]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D9DC3B03DC for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:18:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mike by mike-burns.com with local (Exim 4.61 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1FsmgE-000I4J-6W; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:18:34 -0400 Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:18:34 -0400 From: Mike Burns To: Mystilleef Message-ID: <20060620201834.GA68180@gaping.mike-burns.com> Mail-Followup-To: Mystilleef , Usability@gnome.org References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:18:47 -0000 On 2006-06-20 16.03.43 -0400, Mystilleef wrote: > Graphic user applications, especially the ones designed for "desktop > environments" have virtually no reason to be bound to a shell terminal's > process. How many users who run the program in question run it from the terminal instead of the applications menu, panel, Alt+F2, or a hotkey? How many who run it from the terminal aren't shell experts who know about stuff like '&'? -- Mike Burns mike@mike-burns.com http://mike-burns.com From mystilleef@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:32:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E672F3B00B7 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:32:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12123-10 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:32:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.203]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59AB63B0155 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:32:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id t12so532169wxc for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.126.15 with SMTP id y15mr11029362wxc; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:32:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.15 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:32:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9605403b0606201332r169394a3mdad3a6a12da9115f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:32:14 -0400 From: Mystilleef To: Mystilleef , Usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20060620201834.GA68180@gaping.mike-burns.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <20060620201834.GA68180@gaping.mike-burns.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.256 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.344, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.256 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:32:18 -0000 I can't really say how many users run it from the terminal or from the menu. But it seems a few do run it from the terminal. Of course, on UNIX -like systems it is not uncommon to run applications from the terminal. And depending on your shell environment "&" does not detach applications from the shell's process. Apparently, for BASH, there is "disown" command for that. But I don't believe proficiency in BASH or shell wizardry should be a requirement for using applications designed for GNOME. On 6/20/06, Mike Burns wrote: > On 2006-06-20 16.03.43 -0400, Mystilleef wrote: > > Graphic user applications, especially the ones designed for "desktop > > environments" have virtually no reason to be bound to a shell terminal's > > process. > > How many users who run the program in question run it from the terminal > instead of the applications menu, panel, Alt+F2, or a hotkey? How many who > run it from the terminal aren't shell experts who know about stuff like '&'? > > -- > Mike Burns mike@mike-burns.com http://mike-burns.com > From alleykat@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:34:14 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A4B23B00B7 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:34:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12708-01 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:34:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.206]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A35193B009C for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:34:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 9so2684307nzo for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.12.45 with SMTP id p45mr9469143nzi; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.252.20 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:34:11 -0500 From: "Travis Watkins" To: Mystilleef In-Reply-To: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.379 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.221, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.379 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:34:14 -0000 On 6/20/06, Mystilleef wrote: > Graphic user applications, especially the ones designed for "desktop > environments" have virtually no reason to be bound to a shell terminal's > process. How are we supposed to get the debug output from those GNOME libraries you use? -- Travis Watkins http://www.realistanew.com From mystilleef@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:41:17 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BA943B0280 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:41:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13017-03 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:41:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.201]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEA573B01AF for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:41:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id h29so1020572wxd for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.52.10 with SMTP id z10mr11092861wxz; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:41:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.15 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:41:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9605403b0606201341w12b56135o2b6da3fd50709fa9@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:41:10 -0400 From: Mystilleef To: Usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <9605403b0606201339k12f232dfl57e73b92b2ee2cf5@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <9605403b0606201339k12f232dfl57e73b92b2ee2cf5@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.331 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.269, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.331 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Usability] Fwd: GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:41:17 -0000 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Mystilleef Date: Jun 20, 2006 4:39 PM Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment To: Travis Watkins On 6/20/06, Travis Watkins wrote: > On 6/20/06, Mystilleef wrote: > > Graphic user applications, especially the ones designed for "desktop > > environments" have virtually no reason to be bound to a shell terminal's > > process. > > How are we supposed to get the debug output from those GNOME libraries you use? > > -- > Travis Watkins > http://www.realistanew.com > You can print to stderr, which will display the debug output in the terminal the application was launched in, or you can print to a log file. Or maybe I didn't understand the question well enough? From mystilleef@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:45:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 130903B041C for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:45:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13208-05 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:45:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.198]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFC9C3B041A for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:45:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id t12so100wxc for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.24.3 with SMTP id 3mr11074250wxx; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.15 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9605403b0606201344s4adf74d5l893e43b608b993ba@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:44:52 -0400 From: Mystilleef To: "Travis Watkins" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <9605403b0606201339k12f232dfl57e73b92b2ee2cf5@mail.gmail.com> <9605403b0606201341w12b56135o2b6da3fd50709fa9@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.384 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.216, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.384 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Fwd: GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:45:20 -0000 On 6/20/06, Travis Watkins wrote: > On 6/20/06, Mystilleef wrote: > > You can print to stderr, which will display the debug output in the > > terminal the application was launched in, or you can print to a log > > file. Or maybe I didn't understand the question well enough? > > If you've separated from the terminal does outputting to stderr still > send output to said terminal? > > -- > Travis Watkins > http://www.realistanew.com > Yes, it does. From alleykat@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:50:05 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 374563B053D for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:50:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13567-03 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.195]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59FD03B04FC for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 16so1448nzp for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:50:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.91.2 with SMTP id o2mr3791224nzb; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:43:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.252.20 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:43:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:43:55 -0500 From: "Travis Watkins" To: Mystilleef In-Reply-To: <9605403b0606201341w12b56135o2b6da3fd50709fa9@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <9605403b0606201339k12f232dfl57e73b92b2ee2cf5@mail.gmail.com> <9605403b0606201341w12b56135o2b6da3fd50709fa9@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.384 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.216, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.384 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Fwd: GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:50:05 -0000 On 6/20/06, Mystilleef wrote: > You can print to stderr, which will display the debug output in the > terminal the application was launched in, or you can print to a log > file. Or maybe I didn't understand the question well enough? If you've separated from the terminal does outputting to stderr still send output to said terminal? -- Travis Watkins http://www.realistanew.com From ross@burtonini.com Wed Jun 21 04:29:05 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A27E93B0821 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:29:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21500-06 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:28:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65EB43B002A for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:28:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from burtonini.com (althur.gotadsl.co.uk [84.12.135.175]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBDB028C6D7; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:28:40 +0100 (BST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (ident=unknown) by burtonini.com with esmtp (masqmail 0.2.21) id 1Fsy4m-51o-00; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:28:40 +0100 From: Ross Burton To: Mystilleef In-Reply-To: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-hHw0K+ovPQXh+ENRGLBc" Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:28:40 +0100 Message-Id: <1150878520.12957.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.457 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.457 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:29:05 -0000 --=-hHw0K+ovPQXh+ENRGLBc Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 2006-06-20 at 16:03 -0400, Mystilleef wrote: > My application is a GUI designed especially for GNOME. Thus, when my > application is launched, I register it with the GNOME libraries and then > instruct the kernel to create a separate process for the application. > The procedure is called forking. The effect of this is that when my > application is launched from a shell terminal, the kernel detaches it > from the shell terminal's process, therefore making the application run > in its own process. There are plenty of situations where this behaviour is exactly not what I want, and not forking doesn't hurt anyone. The panel, run dialog and so on spawn processes so they are not bound to anything (you can demonstrate this by running a program from the panel and then killing the panel). Primary use case for not forking is that it makes it trivial to write a script that launches a program, user does something in it, and then the script can continue when the program has exited. If Gedit forked when it started I wouldn't be able to use it as $EDITOR in cvs commit for example. Why break this use case because you think that forking is useful, when to the average user there is no difference and to the terminal-using folks not forking is very useful at times. Yes, if you start a number of not-forking processes from a terminal and then close the terminal without disowning them they will also die. Luckily the users who will start a program from a terminal are advanced enough to know that happens[1]. Ross [1] In other news this week was the first time I got a bug report from a Sound Juicer user who when I asked "run SJ in a terminal and paste the output" asked "what's a terminal?". Yay non-geek users! --=20 Ross Burton mail: ross@burtonini.com jabber: ross@burtonini.com www: http://www.burtonini.com./ PGP Fingerprint: 1A21 F5B0 D8D0 CFE3 81D4 E25A 2D09 E447 D0B4 33DF --=-hHw0K+ovPQXh+ENRGLBc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEmQM3LQnkR9C0M98RAjA/AJ48sqixMzGp90lHwkoSZEEzzHYr0wCfaOyk 8c218P3Pjd0fJjEh3Od2p0s= =F/45 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-hHw0K+ovPQXh+ENRGLBc-- From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Wed Jun 21 04:49:23 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67FE13B07CA for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:49:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22910-06 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:49:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.203]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4F3AD3B04EA for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:49:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 38857 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Jun 2006 08:49:21 -0000 Message-ID: <20060621084921.38855.qmail@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.141.171.15] by web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:49:21 BST Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:49:21 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Ross Burton , Mystilleef In-Reply-To: <1150878520.12957.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.538 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.586, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.538 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:49:23 -0000 --- Ross Burton wrote: > Primary use case for not forking is that it makes it > trivial to write a > script that launches a program, user does something > in it, and then the > script can continue when the program has exited. If > Gedit forked when > it started I wouldn't be able to use it as $EDITOR > in cvs commit for > example. That's interesting! Would you care to add a brief note on how to do that to the wiki, perhaps on http://live.gnome.org/Sysadmin/CVS/FAQ ? > > [1] In other news this week was the first time I got > a bug report from a > Sound Juicer user who when I asked "run SJ in a > terminal and paste the > output" asked "what's a terminal?". Yay non-geek > users! Yay indeed! (Original poster wrote:) > There are many other silly UNIX conventions that are a hold back from yesteryears which bite us in the behind today. Absolutely. I keep finding some of these, filing bugs in my ignorance, and then getting told it's meant to be the way it is. We need to look at these legacy issues, because there are simply a pain to non-geek users, and non-geek contributors too. ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From nudrema@gmail.com Wed Jun 21 04:49:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 233453B04EF for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:49:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22840-07 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:49:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp40.mobistarmail.be (smtp40.mobistarmail.be [193.252.23.61]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 123723B0AF9 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:49:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.103] (unknown [212.224.134.45]) by mwinf4016.mobistarmail.be (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id AA8337000085 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 10:49:25 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060621084925698.AA8337000085@mwinf4016.mobistarmail.be Message-ID: <44990812.3040603@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 10:49:22 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Steve_Fr=E9cinaux?= User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <1150878520.12957.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <1150878520.12957.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.973 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.443, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_NEUTRAL=1.069] X-Spam-Score: -1.973 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:49:41 -0000 Ross Burton wrote: > Primary use case for not forking is that it makes it trivial to write a > script that launches a program, user does something in it, and then the > script can continue when the program has exited. If Gedit forked when > it started I wouldn't be able to use it as $EDITOR in cvs commit for > example. Well, in fact you can't now, because of a bug due to the single instance stuff (ie it's not blocking when you already have an instance of gedit). This might be solved by adding a --wait option or such for these case, but it's not done yet. From sberry@cyberspace.org Mon Jun 19 22:04:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C66503B01F6 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:04:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16941-07 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:04:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from grex.cyberspace.org (grex.cyberspace.org [216.86.77.194]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC98B3B0D79 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:04:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sberry by grex.cyberspace.org with local (Exim 4.54) id 1FsVan-0006sA-5J for usability@gnome.org; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:03:49 -0400 Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:03:49 -0400 From: David To: usability@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2i Sender: David X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.537 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.062, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.537 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 11:02:14 -0400 Subject: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 02:04:48 -0000 Dear All, I am not sure if you have seen this article (apparently it appeared on SlashDot). http://chabada.sk/better-desktop/ The reason I am mentioning it on the usability list is that he has many ideas for the utilisation of pop-up dialogues that appear not to be too intrusive. The idea of mail new message preview is a large usability gap, due to the time it takes users to switch back and forth between the app they are using and Evolution to determine if a message is improtant or not and the interruption to workflow this entails. Progress notifications, information about multimedia codecs and automatic music pause would all lead to a more intuitive systemi. The comments about displaying more relevant data in Nautilus are also worth taking on board. All in all, these are some of the best practical suggestions I have seen for a long time. I hope they provide deveopers and usability experts with food for thought. Thanks, Sarah From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Wed Jun 21 12:17:06 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB7C43B0FCB for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:17:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20270-09 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:17:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.206]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1A1503B0FE5 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:17:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 64620 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Jun 2006 16:17:02 -0000 Message-ID: <20060621161702.64618.qmail@web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.215.5.26] by web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:17:02 BST Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:17:02 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: David , usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.669 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.717, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.669 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:17:06 -0000 --- David wrote: > Dear All, > > I am not sure if you have seen this article > (apparently it appeared on SlashDot). > http://chabada.sk/better-desktop/ > > The reason I am mentioning it on the usability list > is that he has many ideas for the utilisation of > pop-up dialogues that appear not to be too > intrusive. The idea of mail new message preview is > a large usability gap, due to the time it takes > users to switch back and forth between the app they > are using and Evolution to determine if a message is > improtant or not and the interruption to workflow > this entails. Have you seen Growl for OS X? There is also a page on our wiki about redesigning the notification area. > > The comments about displaying more relevant data in > Nautilus are also worth taking on board. I do not underestand why Nautilus ties up two totally different concepts in its zoom function: icon size and amount of information displayed. If anything, the reverse would make more sense: icons smaller when there is more text in the label. I filed a bug about this but I don't think I explained it properly, as it has been ignored/ ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Wed Jun 21 12:49:44 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 617AA3B00AE for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:49:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22459-04 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:49:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C9A833B10DE for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:48:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 21 Jun 2006 17:47:39 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:47:39 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan To: sberry@grex.cyberspace.org In-Reply-To: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> Message-ID: References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:49:45 -0000 On Mon, 19 Jun 2006, David wrote: > Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:03:49 -0400 > From: David > To: usability@gnome.org > Subject: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions > > Dear All, > > I am not sure if you have seen this article (apparently it appeared on > SlashDot). http://chabada.sk/better-desktop/ I've seen it but I'm not sure it was discussed here on this list. I probably read about it on OSNews http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=14152 A lot of the suggestions could be dealt with directly by filing bug reports and feature requests and I think a few may have been filed already by the author. > Progress notifications, information about multimedia codecs and We really want to encourage people to use free and open formats and avoid vendor lock in problem which in the long run is a far worse problem. It might even be good idea to offer to transcode files to better formats before offering to install codecs for encumbered proprietary formats. Part of this "problem" is up to distributions and what they choose to include. Gnome doesn't include proprietary codecs and this stance is unlikely to change but some distributions do add them back in and give users what they think they want. Another part of it is education, to try and make sure users understand we cannot play formats such as MP3 out of the box due to legal hazards. Much as we might like to ignore the issue and give users what they want we cannot afford to as it will not go away and will only get worse. Fluendo and gstreamer do seem to be working at making it easier to install 3rd party codecs but we cannot achieve the ideal ease of use and without undermining other goals. > automatic music pause would all lead to a more intuitive systemi. the notion of pausing music has been discussed before, I dont recall if there was any conclusion or ideas on how best to go about implementing it. > The comments about displaying more relevant data in Nautilus are also > worth taking on board. I think the author may have posted those directly to the nautilus list. Sincerely Alan Horkan Inkscape http://inkscape.org Abiword http://www.abisource.com Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/ From thejello@gmail.com Wed Jun 21 14:37:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9858F3B014E for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:37:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29199-05 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:37:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.183]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 705803B0084 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:37:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id x66so48839pye for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 11:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.134.12 with SMTP id l12mr136441pyn; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 11:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.124.18 with HTTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 11:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4d9c6c340606211137p39290216x864bd61275aec52@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:37:08 -0400 From: "Simon Francis" To: "Alan Horkan" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_5466_4641605.1150915028419" References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.129 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.470, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.129 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org, sberry@grex.cyberspace.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 18:37:12 -0000 ------=_Part_5466_4641605.1150915028419 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Why does Gnome open non-free document formats that have related patents (Word, Excel, etc) but not multimedia files? I would consider it essential for a modern desktop to open either and a major barrier to adoption. On 6/21/06, Alan Horkan wrote: > > > On Mon, 19 Jun 2006, David wrote: > > > Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:03:49 -0400 > > From: David > > To: usability@gnome.org > > Subject: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions > > > > Dear All, > > > > I am not sure if you have seen this article (apparently it appeared on > > SlashDot). http://chabada.sk/better-desktop/ > > I've seen it but I'm not sure it was discussed here on this list. > > I probably read about it on OSNews > http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=14152 > > A lot of the suggestions could be dealt with directly by filing bug > reports and feature requests and I think a few may have been filed already > by the author. > > > Progress notifications, information about multimedia codecs and > > We really want to encourage people to use free and open formats and avoid > vendor lock in problem which in the long run is a far worse problem. It > might even be good idea to offer to transcode files to better formats > before offering to install codecs for encumbered proprietary formats. > > Part of this "problem" is up to distributions and what they choose to > include. Gnome doesn't include proprietary codecs and this stance is > unlikely to change but some distributions do add them back in and give > users what they think they want. > > Another part of it is education, to try and make sure users understand we > cannot play formats such as MP3 out of the box due to legal hazards. > Much as we might like to ignore the issue and give users what they want we > cannot afford to as it will not go away and will only get worse. > > Fluendo and gstreamer do seem to be working at making it easier to install > 3rd party codecs but we cannot achieve the ideal ease of use and without > undermining other goals. > > > automatic music pause would all lead to a more intuitive systemi. > > the notion of pausing music has been discussed before, I dont recall if > there was any conclusion or ideas on how best to go about implementing it. > > > The comments about displaying more relevant data in Nautilus are also > > worth taking on board. > > I think the author may have posted those directly to the nautilus list. > > Sincerely > > Alan Horkan > > Inkscape http://inkscape.org > Abiword http://www.abisource.com > Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org > > Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Usability mailing list > Usability@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability > ------=_Part_5466_4641605.1150915028419 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Why does Gnome open non-free document formats that have related patents (Word, Excel, etc) but not multimedia files? I would consider it essential for a modern desktop to open either and a major barrier to adoption.

On 6/21/06, Alan Horkan <horkana@maths.tcd.ie> wrote:

On Mon, 19 Jun 2006, David wrote:

> Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:03:49 -0400
> From: David <sberry@grex.cyberspace.org>
> To: usability@gnome.org
> Subject: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions
>
> Dear All,
>
> I am not sure if you have seen this article (apparently it appeared on
> SlashDot). http://chabada.sk/better-desktop/

I've seen it but I'm not sure it was discussed here on this list.

I probably read about it on OSNews
http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=14152

A lot of the suggestions could be dealt with directly by filing bug
reports and feature requests and I think a few may have been filed already
by the author.

> Progress notifications, information about multimedia codecs and

We really want to encourage people to use free and open formats and avoid
vendor lock in problem which in the long run is a far worse problem.  It
might even be good idea to offer to transcode files to better formats
before offering to install codecs for encumbered proprietary formats.

Part of this "problem" is up to distributions and what they choose to
include.  Gnome doesn't include proprietary codecs and this stance is
unlikely to change but some distributions do add them back in and give
users what they think they want.

Another part of it is education, to try and make sure users understand we
cannot play formats such as MP3 out of the box due to legal hazards.
Much as we might like to ignore the issue and give users what they want we
cannot afford to as it will not go away and will only get worse.

Fluendo and gstreamer do seem to be working at making it easier to install
3rd party codecs but we cannot achieve the ideal ease of use and without
undermining other goals.

> automatic music pause would all lead to a more intuitive systemi.

the notion of pausing music has been discussed before, I dont recall if
there was any conclusion or ideas on how best to go about implementing it.

> The comments about displaying more relevant data in Nautilus are also
> worth taking on board.

I think the author may have posted those directly to the nautilus list.

Sincerely

Alan Horkan

Inkscape http://inkscape.org
Abiword http://www.abisource.com
Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org

Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/



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Usability@gnome.org
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------=_Part_5466_4641605.1150915028419-- From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Wed Jun 21 16:21:38 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 456063B05BB for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:21:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03268-09 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:21:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BE8643B05C0 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:21:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 21 Jun 2006 21:21:33 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 21:21:33 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <4d9c6c340606211137p39290216x864bd61275aec52@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> <4d9c6c340606211137p39290216x864bd61275aec52@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 20:21:38 -0000 On Wed, 21 Jun 2006, Simon Francis wrote: > Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:37:08 -0400 > From: Simon Francis > To: Alan Horkan > Cc: sberry@grex.cyberspace.org, usability@gnome.org > Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions > > Why does Gnome open non-free document formats that have related patents > (Word, Excel, etc) but not multimedia files? Techincally (and I apologise for the pedantry) Abiword and Gnumeric or Openoffice are the ones opening those formats not "GNOME" (although they are part or the wider Gnome community). More importantly the older office document formats have quite the same patent threats looming over them as the newer video formats do and they could be clean room reverse engineered but patents on video formats remain a threat even if the decoders are completely new code. > I would consider it essential for a modern desktop to open either and a > major barrier to adoption. The develolpers are not going to lock themselves out of their own desktop by using proprietary formats. If distributions choose to include additional codecs that is up to them. Other operating systems do not support certain formats out of the box. This is not directly a Gnome issue, and it is more a packaging and installation issue than a usability or mulitmedia issue. I am sure Gstreamer will continue to try and make it easier to install third part codecs but it is a nasty problem since the root of it is the politics of software patents. I understand your points and I do sort of agree with you (most likely I will choose a distribution which includes the codecs, or maybe install them myself but try to use unencumbered formats where possible) and I am only trying to present the problem as best I understand it. -- Alan From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Wed Jun 21 17:26:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B9A03B0153 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:26:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07094-01 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:26:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.206]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4366F3B0005 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:26:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 98624 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Jun 2006 21:26:49 -0000 Message-ID: <20060621212649.98622.qmail@web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.188.165.84] by web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 22:26:49 BST Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 22:26:49 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Alan Horkan , sberry@grex.cyberspace.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.653 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.701, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.653 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 21:26:51 -0000 --- Alan Horkan wrote: > Another part of it is education, to try and make > sure users understand we > cannot play formats such as MP3 out of the box due > to legal hazards. > Much as we might like to ignore the issue and give > users what they want we > cannot afford to as it will not go away and will > only get worse. Then let's educate the users! Try to open an MP3 file in Nautilus, and you get a 'application could not be found' message, which is unhelpful and untrue. Replace that with something that says why the MP3 can't be played. ___________________________________________________________ The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html From ross@burtonini.com Thu Jun 22 06:19:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9248D3B0389 for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 06:19:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15587-05 for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 06:19:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 651A03B042A for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 06:19:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from burtonini.com (althur.gotadsl.co.uk [84.12.135.175]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D3F029BC37; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 11:14:54 +0100 (BST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (ident=unknown) by burtonini.com with esmtp (masqmail 0.2.21) id 1Ft3Ca-331-00; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:57:04 +0100 From: Ross Burton To: Steve =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9cinaux?= In-Reply-To: <44990812.3040603@gmail.com> References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <1150878520.12957.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <44990812.3040603@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-GS5gCILk9mi/7eC2n045" Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:57:04 +0100 Message-Id: <1150898224.7820.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.833 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.616, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_12_24=1.247, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -1.833 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 10:19:18 -0000 --=-GS5gCILk9mi/7eC2n045 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 2006-06-21 at 10:49 +0200, Steve Fr=C3=A9cinaux wrote: > Ross Burton wrote: >=20 > > Primary use case for not forking is that it makes it trivial to write a > > script that launches a program, user does something in it, and then the > > script can continue when the program has exited. If Gedit forked when > > it started I wouldn't be able to use it as $EDITOR in cvs commit for > > example. >=20 > Well, in fact you can't now, because of a bug due to the single instance > stuff (ie it's not blocking when you already have an instance of gedit). >=20 > This might be solved by adding a --wait option or such for these case, > but it's not done yet. Never let reality get in the way of a good example, that's what I say. Yes, the single-instance stuff needs a --wait or something. In fact I'll add this to the single-instance SoC project wiki page. Ross --=20 Ross Burton mail: ross@burtonini.com jabber: ross@burtonini.com www: http://www.burtonini.com./ PGP Fingerprint: 1A21 F5B0 D8D0 CFE3 81D4 E25A 2D09 E447 D0B4 33DF --=-GS5gCILk9mi/7eC2n045 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEmVAwLQnkR9C0M98RAjj/AJkBwL8X5gXuowk+mivKV7xgBtxiYQCggIe4 2AiH4/XMuAfyJXaHvh10+DM= =rEto -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-GS5gCILk9mi/7eC2n045-- From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Fri Jun 23 03:30:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97FAB3B018A for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 03:30:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22794-06 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 03:30:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32406.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32406.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.199]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AD4CA3B00ED for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 03:30:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 90963 invoked by uid 60001); 23 Jun 2006 07:30:56 -0000 Message-ID: <20060623073056.90961.qmail@web32406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.214.29.119] by web32406.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 08:30:56 BST Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 08:30:56 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Michael Knepher , Gnome usability In-Reply-To: <19425c310606221428w62bc6e6ey19dd5c892a7e4176@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.56 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.608, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.56 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 07:30:57 -0000 --- Michael Knepher wrote: > On 6/21/06, Joachim Noreiko > wrote: > > > > --- Alan Horkan wrote: > > > > > Another part of it is education, to try and make > > > sure users understand we > > > cannot play formats such as MP3 out of the box > due > > > to legal hazards. > > > > Then let's educate the users! > > > > Try to open an MP3 file in Nautilus, and you get a > > 'application could not be found' message, which is > > unhelpful and untrue. > > Replace that with something that says why the MP3 > > can't be played. > > Isn't that the generic message that appears when > trying to open *any* > file type that doesn't have an application > registered to that > mime-type? Why should nautilus have a hard-coded > exception for any > file-type? Having a support page with information or > links to further > information about various filetypes and what > applications can > open/play/edit/hang out with them would seem to be a > better idea. > Today it may be mp3, but tomorrow it's likely to be > some other format, > and even today mp3 is far from the only > unsupported-out-of-the-box > file format for most distributions. Opening a support page when the user tries to open an MP3 file would be fine too. Basically, something needs to happen beyond the default message so the user doesn't simply think "This linux is rubbish -- it doesn't even know what an MP3 file is!" And yes, we could widen the idea, so anytime the user tries to open a file for which there's currently no application, she can go to find out more about what to do next. Eg, try to open an SVG file, and the helpfile you're pointed to will suggest Inkscape. ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From kbridger@shaw.ca Sat Jun 24 15:16:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B07543B00A5 for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 15:16:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31701-10 for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 15:16:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pd2mo2so.prod.shaw.ca (shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net [24.71.223.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2AF63B01B1 for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 15:16:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pd2mr7so.prod.shaw.ca (pd2mr7so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.10]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1D00MELPIRZW10@l-daemon> for usability@gnome.org; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 13:16:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml9so.prod.shaw.ca ([10.0.121.7]) by pd2mr7so.prod.shaw.ca (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1D00L5ZPIRYC00@pd2mr7so.prod.shaw.ca> for usability@gnome.org; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 13:16:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from spontaneity.thebside.ca ([70.70.211.21]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1D00HLCPIQVQG0@l-daemon> for usability@gnome.org; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 13:16:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.0.10] (westley [192.168.0.10]) by spontaneity.thebside.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0D6A1014; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 12:16:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 12:16:01 -0700 From: Kirk Bridger In-reply-to: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> To: David Message-id: <449D8F71.1060304@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.366 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.809, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST=1.708, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.366 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 19:16:56 -0000 His site seems down, but looking through Google's cache I have a comment: Renaming file extensions causes file type change: I don't like the way Windows uses file extensions to determine filetype. I think it is much more useful to have the system figure out what filetype it is. Windows ended up providing users with a means of hiding file extensions and we all know how that turned out. I love being able to send a .exe file through my exchange server's filter simply by renaming it .txt. Changing types though could be useful - I use nautilus's script to resize images for example. Being able to do that in the properties or by right-clicking is an interesting idea. I suppose the same could be done for filetypes as well, to a limited extent. I'm not sure if there is a frequently used use case there or not though. Kirk David wrote: > Dear All, > > I am not sure if you have seen this article (apparently it appeared on SlashDot). > http://chabada.sk/better-desktop/ > > The reason I am mentioning it on the usability list is that he has many ideas for the utilisation of pop-up dialogues that appear not to be too intrusive. The idea of mail new message preview is a large usability gap, due to the time it takes users to switch back and forth between the app they are using and Evolution to determine if a message is improtant or not and the interruption to workflow this entails. > > Progress notifications, information about multimedia codecs and automatic music pause would all lead to a more intuitive systemi. > > The comments about displaying more relevant data in Nautilus are also worth taking on board. > > All in all, these are some of the best practical suggestions I have seen for a long time. I hope they provide deveopers and usability experts with food for thought. > > Thanks, > > Sarah > _______________________________________________ > Usability mailing list > Usability@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability > From mpt@myrealbox.com Sun Jun 25 01:21:37 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40CD73B02A2 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 01:21:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17670-06 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 01:21:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from leucothea.redline.site5.com (leucothea.redline.site5.com [216.118.97.161]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E57D3B0079 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 01:21:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 203-173-178-53.bliink.ihug.co.nz ([203.173.178.53] helo=[10.1.1.5]) by leucothea.redline.site5.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.52) id 1FuN3O-0005nO-Se; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 01:21:03 -0400 In-Reply-To: <449D8F71.1060304@shaw.ca> References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> <449D8F71.1060304@shaw.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <6b768541cf85cb7ade2a7217c3faffd4@myrealbox.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Matthew Paul Thomas Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:21:12 +1200 To: Gnome usability X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.623) X-Antivirus-Scanner: This message has been scanned by ClamAV. X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - leucothea.redline.site5.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnome.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - myrealbox.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.499 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.499 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 05:21:37 -0000 On Jun 25, 2006, at 7:16 AM, Kirk Bridger wrote: > ... > I don't like the way Windows uses file extensions to determine > filetype. I think it is much more useful to have the system figure > out what filetype it is. Windows ended up providing users with a > means of hiding file extensions and we all know how that turned out. > I love being able to send a .exe file through my exchange server's > filter simply by renaming it .txt. > ... The converse of that is the friend of mine who renamed something.bmp to something.gif and wondered why it didn't get converted. (And that was without even being exposed to the Gimp, which has a Save dialog encouraging such confusion.) -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Sun Jun 25 05:29:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FA973B0079 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 05:29:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07670-03 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 05:29:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B8F243B013D for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 05:29:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 25 Jun 2006 10:28:36 +0100 (BST) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:28:36 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: Gnome usability In-Reply-To: <6b768541cf85cb7ade2a7217c3faffd4@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> <449D8F71.1060304@shaw.ca> <6b768541cf85cb7ade2a7217c3faffd4@myrealbox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 09:29:34 -0000 On Sun, 25 Jun 2006, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:21:12 +1200 > From: Matthew Paul Thomas > To: Gnome usability > Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions > > On Jun 25, 2006, at 7:16 AM, Kirk Bridger wrote: > > ... > > I don't like the way Windows uses file extensions to determine > > filetype. It is a fairly fast way of doing things. > > I think it is much more useful to have the system figure > > out what filetype it is. There certainly used to be an option to use full file type detection in Nautilus, which was much more necessary several years ago as some developers intentionally did not use any file extensions but most do nowadays. Even if we had a system where we did not need to use file extensions I would generally add them back in for my own use, they are especially useful for simple pattern matching on the command line. For example: ls -lgh *.png > > Windows ended up providing users with a > > means of hiding file extensions and we all know how that turned out. > > I love being able to send a .exe file through my exchange server's > > filter simply by renaming it .txt. I've seen people embed huge video files inside Word Documents just to bypass stupid filters. It is a system only useful for preventing users from accidentally shooting themselves in the foot but that wont stop those determined to wreck their computer. > The converse of that is the friend of mine who renamed something.bmp to > something.gif and wondered why it didn't get converted. A very familiar situation. It didn't help that some web authoring tools such as Microsoft Frontpage failed to discourage users from including massive uncompressed bitmaps on their web pages. It would sure be an improvement to offer to convert the file instead of issuing pointless - inevitably ignored - warnings the way Microsoft does. -- Alan From reinouts@gnome.org Sun Jun 25 10:38:30 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C5643B00CA for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:38:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17732-05 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:38:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp13.wxs.nl (smtp13.wxs.nl [195.121.247.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F2FB3B00FE for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:38:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from reinout.rotterdam-cs.com (ip5656924e.speed.planet.nl [86.86.146.78]) by smtp13.wxs.nl (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004)) with SMTP id <0J1F00KSS7B3U5@smtp13.wxs.nl> for usability@gnome.org; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 16:37:52 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 16:40:29 +0200 From: Reinout van Schouwen To: usability@gnome.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Pan/0.14.2 (This is not a psychotic episode. It's a cleansing moment of clarity.) References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> <449D8F71.1060304@shaw.ca> <6b768541cf85cb7ade2a7217c3faffd4@myrealbox.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.014, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 14:38:30 -0000 On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:21:12 +1200, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > The converse of that is the friend of mine who renamed something.bmp to > something.gif and wondered why it didn't get converted. Automagically converting the file after the user renames it to another graphics type would be a very sensible thing to do, wouldn't it? regards, -- Reinout van Schouwen From reinouts@gnome.org Sun Jun 25 10:41:44 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93DA03B00BB for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:41:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17855-06 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:41:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp16.wxs.nl (smtp16.wxs.nl [195.121.247.7]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 232073B00CA for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:41:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from reinout.rotterdam-cs.com (ip5656924e.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl [86.86.146.78]) by smtp16.wxs.nl (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004)) with SMTP id <0J1F005KV7GTCX@smtp16.wxs.nl> for usability@gnome.org; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 16:41:18 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 16:43:55 +0200 From: Reinout van Schouwen To: usability@gnome.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Pan/0.14.2 (This is not a psychotic episode. It's a cleansing moment of clarity.) References: <20060621212649.98622.qmail@web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.014, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 14:41:44 -0000 On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 22:26:49 +0100, Joachim Noreiko wrote: > Try to open an MP3 file in Nautilus, and you get a 'application could not > be found' message, which is unhelpful and untrue. > Replace that with something that says why the MP3 can't be played. You are assuming that people read such messages. In reality, unfortunately, they don't. regards, -- Reinout van Schouwen From mpt@myrealbox.com Sun Jun 25 18:51:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BF323B0201 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 18:51:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06774-08 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 18:51:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from leucothea.redline.site5.com (leucothea.redline.site5.com [216.118.97.161]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 390DA3B019D for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 18:51:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 203-173-178-53.bliink.ihug.co.nz ([203.173.178.53] helo=[10.1.1.5]) by leucothea.redline.site5.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.52) id 1FudS6-0007xY-9V; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 18:51:38 -0400 In-Reply-To: References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> <449D8F71.1060304@shaw.ca> <6b768541cf85cb7ade2a7217c3faffd4@myrealbox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Matthew Paul Thomas Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:51:39 +1200 To: Gnome usability X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.623) X-Antivirus-Scanner: This message has been scanned by ClamAV. X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - leucothea.redline.site5.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnome.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - myrealbox.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.514 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.085, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.514 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 22:51:46 -0000 On Jun 26, 2006, at 2:40 AM, Reinout van Schouwen wrote: > > On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:21:12 +1200, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: >> >> The converse of that is the friend of mine who renamed something.bmp >> to something.gif and wondered why it didn't get converted. > > Automagically converting the file after the user renames it to another > graphics type would be a very sensible thing to do, wouldn't it? > ... I don't think so, because then you would still have the "renaming a file in a particular way causes a confirmation alert" problem, except this time the alert would be asking about a (usually) lossy file conversion instead of merely a rename. -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Mon Jun 26 03:49:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67B333B0124 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 03:49:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31093-05 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 03:49:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.204]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A389A3B00B6 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 03:49:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 67033 invoked by uid 60001); 26 Jun 2006 07:49:48 -0000 Message-ID: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.188.218.167] by web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:49:48 BST Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:49:48 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Reinout van Schouwen , usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.654 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.702, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.654 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 07:49:52 -0000 --- Reinout van Schouwen wrote: > On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 22:26:49 +0100, Joachim Noreiko > wrote: > > > Try to open an MP3 file in Nautilus, and you get a > 'application could not > > be found' message, which is unhelpful and untrue. > > Replace that with something that says why the MP3 > can't be played. > > You are assuming that people read such messages. In > reality, > unfortunately, they don't. Yes, they often don't. But have to assume they do and plan our UI around that assumption. Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and probably no user documentation either. ___________________________________________________________ Now you can scan emails quickly with a reading pane. Get the new Yahoo! Mail. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html From burner@suppressingfire.org Mon Jun 26 10:22:09 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B811B3B043B for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:22:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24164-06 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:22:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ms-smtp-01.nyroc.rr.com (ms-smtp-01.nyroc.rr.com [24.24.2.55]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66D493B0124 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:22:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from suppressingfire (cpe-24-24-95-18.stny.res.rr.com [24.24.95.18]) by ms-smtp-01.nyroc.rr.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k5QELvpk004094 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:22:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [66.24.9.211] (helo=phoenix.local) by suppressingfire with asmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1Fury6-0003dz-00; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:21:38 -0400 From: "Michael R. Head" To: usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-jyWJEDPHSqqZY9+dmCjI" Organization: suppressingfire.org Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:21:33 -0400 Message-Id: <1151331695.7135.143.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Scanner: exiscan *1Fury6-0003dz-00*MS6m9wiATYI* X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.653 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_NJABL_DUL=1.946] X-Spam-Score: -0.653 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:22:09 -0000 --=-jyWJEDPHSqqZY9+dmCjI Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:49 +0100, Joachim Noreiko wrote: >=20 > Yes, they often don't. > But have to assume they do and plan our UI around that > assumption. > Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and probably > no user documentation either. It's not that we shouldn't have those, it's that the user shouldn't _need_ them. --=20 Michael R. Head suppressingfire.org --=-jyWJEDPHSqqZY9+dmCjI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEn+1tNXGzGEydodARAqBvAKCCBm4gdnuwL1qXO4DzJtBTQB0tNACeMCMV 98CqtU5zsymY1oSZ3hjToYY= =1qKT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-jyWJEDPHSqqZY9+dmCjI-- From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Mon Jun 26 12:36:43 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2CFA3B009A for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:36:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00507-06 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:36:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.202]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DDC053B03BA for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:36:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 49772 invoked by uid 60001); 26 Jun 2006 16:36:42 -0000 Message-ID: <20060626163642.49770.qmail@web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.214.125.57] by web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:36:42 BST Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:36:42 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: "Michael R. Head" , usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <1151331695.7135.143.camel@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.565 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.613, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.565 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:36:44 -0000 --- "Michael R. Head" wrote: > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:49 +0100, Joachim Noreiko > wrote: > > > > Yes, they often don't. > > But have to assume they do and plan our UI around > that > > assumption. > > Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and > probably > > no user documentation either. > > It's not that we shouldn't have those, it's that the > user shouldn't > _need_ them. I agree with that in general. But when the user tries to open a file for which there's no application, there has to be some sort of response from the system. ___________________________________________________________ All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html From glatzor@ubuntu.com Mon Jun 26 14:31:16 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 333A13B0265 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:31:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07114-05 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:31:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail-out.m-online.net (mail-out.m-online.net [212.18.0.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8BEB3B017D for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:31:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail01.m-online.net (svr21.m-online.net [192.168.3.149]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2BCA73290 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:31:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pimpzkru.dyndns.org (ppp-82-135-65-46.dynamic.mnet-online.de [82.135.65.46]) by mail.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 949F092781 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:31:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pimpzkru.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DA2AD2E05 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:47:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pimpzkru.dyndns.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (server.daheim [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20467-07 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:47:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from sebi-mac.daheim (sebi-mac.daheim [10.169.18.2]) by pimpzkru.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3721ED2E02 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:47:05 +0200 (CEST) From: Sebastian Heinlein To: usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20060626163642.49770.qmail@web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060626163642.49770.qmail@web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:30:33 +0200 Message-Id: <1151346634.4959.6.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at pimpzkru X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.464 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.464 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:31:16 -0000 Am Montag, den 26.06.2006, 17:36 +0100 schrieb Joachim Noreiko: > --- "Michael R. Head" > wrote: > > > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:49 +0100, Joachim Noreiko > > wrote: > > > > > > Yes, they often don't. > > > But have to assume they do and plan our UI around > > that > > > assumption. > > > Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and > > probably > > > no user documentation either. > > > > It's not that we shouldn't have those, it's that the > > user shouldn't > > _need_ them. > > I agree with that in general. > But when the user tries to open a file for which > there's no application, there has to be some sort of > response from the system May I point you to the following spec that has been discussed on the Ubuntu Depeveloper Summit in Paris recently: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SuggestedPackagesForFiletypesSpec Regards, Sebastian From mpt@myrealbox.com Mon Jun 26 23:42:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82C2B3B0286 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:42:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01194-10 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:42:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from leucothea.redline.site5.com (leucothea.redline.site5.com [216.118.97.161]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 832863B00CF for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:42:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 203-173-178-53.bliink.ihug.co.nz ([203.173.178.53] helo=[10.1.1.5]) by leucothea.redline.site5.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.52) id 1Fv4TO-00043b-Bp; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:42:46 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Matthew Paul Thomas Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:42:56 +1200 To: Gnome usability X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.623) X-Antivirus-Scanner: This message has been scanned by ClamAV. X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - leucothea.redline.site5.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnome.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - myrealbox.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.524 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.075, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.524 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 03:42:51 -0000 On Jun 26, 2006, at 7:49 PM, Joachim Noreiko wrote: > ... > --- Reinout van Schouwen wrote: > ... >> You are assuming that people read such messages. In reality, >> unfortunately, they don't. > > Yes, they often don't. But have to assume they do and plan our UI > around that assumption. Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and > probably no user documentation either. > ... That's a long-term goal to work towards: alerts replaced by bug fixes and better design, and "user documentation" replaced by helpful help and better design. But that's not the issue here. The issue is, given that there is an error alert, which alert text is better: "Nautilus could not open the file because the filetype is unknown", or "&operatingsystem; cannot play MP3 files, because some countries allow software patents and Free Software cannot pay patent licenses". -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ From kbridger@shaw.ca Tue Jun 27 00:40:32 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 179EB3B0125 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:40:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03708-04 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:40:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pd2mo2so.prod.shaw.ca (shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net [24.71.223.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCA8E3B0143 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:40:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pd5mr1so.prod.shaw.ca (pd5mr1so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.232]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1I0071O4YNP570@l-daemon> for usability@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:39:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml1so.prod.shaw.ca ([10.0.121.145]) by pd5mr1so.prod.shaw.ca (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-2.05 (built Apr 28 2005)) with ESMTP id <0J1I001J94YN5Q50@pd5mr1so.prod.shaw.ca> for usability@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:39:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from spontaneity.thebside.ca ([70.70.211.21]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1I00ART4YN7T31@l-daemon> for usability@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:39:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.0.10] (westley [192.168.0.10]) by spontaneity.thebside.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C58A043724; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:39:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:39:58 -0700 From: Kirk Bridger In-reply-to: To: Matthew Paul Thomas Message-id: <44A0B69E.4050605@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> <449D8F71.1060304@shaw.ca> <6b768541cf85cb7ade2a7217c3faffd4@myrealbox.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.372 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.817, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST=1.708, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.372 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Gnome usability Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 04:40:32 -0000 I think it would be an interesting idea if it was lossless.  As soon as data can be lost in the translation I think it would be a mistake.

But as Matthew pointed out, it is a rename function.  Might it make more sense to have a right-click option to convert a file to another filetype, a la Nautilus scripts?  Certainly more complex but also more robust I think.

Why would a file's name determine it's format?  It seems artificial and fragile to me.  Alan's point about organizing via extension is a fallback to the shell, but is certainly true.  For the shell.  I think there are better ways to do it on the desktop - perhaps with Beagle and tagging images with their type or something like that?

However as long it is lossless there would be no danger and it most likely would be useful to some.  It actually might be kind of cool.


Kirk



Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: 
On Jun 26, 2006, at 2:40 AM, Reinout van Schouwen wrote:
  
On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:21:12 +1200, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
    
The converse of that is the friend of mine who renamed something.bmp 
to something.gif and wondered why it didn't get converted.
      
Automagically converting the file after the user renames it to another
graphics type would be a very sensible thing to do, wouldn't it?
...
    

I don't think so, because then you would still have the "renaming a 
file in a particular way causes a confirmation alert" problem, except 
this time the alert would be asking about a (usually) lossy file 
conversion instead of merely a rename.
From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Tue Jun 27 10:37:21 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34D453B0497 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 10:37:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03799-06 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 10:37:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3DC803B0234 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 10:37:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bell.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.9] helo=bell.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 27 Jun 2006 15:36:40 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:36:40 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: Gnome usability In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:37:21 -0000 On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: [...] > > Yes, they often don't. But have to assume they do and plan our UI > > around that assumption. Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and > > probably no user documentation either. > > ... > > That's a long-term goal to work towards: alerts replaced by bug fixes > and better design, and "user documentation" replaced by helpful help > and better design. > But that's not the issue here. The issue is, given that there is an > error alert, which alert text is better: I agree with your sentiment but ... > "Nautilus could not open the > file because the filetype is unknown", or > "&operatingsystem; cannot play MP3 files, because some countries allow > software patents and Free Software cannot pay patent licenses". ... there are so many things wrong with that second sentence I will not criticize it other than to say I hope you will retract it, or rephrase it. -- Alan H. From thejello@gmail.com Tue Jun 27 11:30:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2D3B3B00A0 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:30:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05701-08 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:30:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.181]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8869E3B00B4 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:30:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id b29so1887828pya for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:29:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.121.9 with SMTP id y9mr7319104pym; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:29:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.124.18 with HTTP; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:29:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4d9c6c340606270829v76184a30t1873601ca705e921@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:29:55 -0400 From: "Simon Francis" To: "Matthew Paul Thomas" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_11777_20547401.1151422195993" References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.928 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.097, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, HTML_30_40=0.374, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.928 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Gnome usability Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:30:27 -0000 ------=_Part_11777_20547401.1151422195993 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline But OpenOffice and AbiWord open my Word documents fine which have patents. It is as essential to a home user to have working multimedia playback as a business user having the ability to open documents. On 6/26/06, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > > On Jun 26, 2006, at 7:49 PM, Joachim Noreiko wrote: > > ... > > --- Reinout van Schouwen wrote: > > ... > >> You are assuming that people read such messages. In reality, > >> unfortunately, they don't. > > > > Yes, they often don't. But have to assume they do and plan our UI > > around that assumption. Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and > > probably no user documentation either. > > ... > > That's a long-term goal to work towards: alerts replaced by bug fixes > and better design, and "user documentation" replaced by helpful help > and better design. > > But that's not the issue here. The issue is, given that there is an > error alert, which alert text is better: "Nautilus could not open the > file because the filetype is unknown", or "&operatingsystem; cannot > play MP3 files, because some countries allow software patents and Free > Software cannot pay patent licenses". > > -- > Matthew Paul Thomas > http://mpt.net.nz/ > > _______________________________________________ > Usability mailing list > Usability@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability > ------=_Part_11777_20547401.1151422195993 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline But OpenOffice and AbiWord open my Word documents fine which have patents. It is as essential to a home user to have working multimedia playback as a business user having the ability to open documents.

On 6/26/06, Matthew Paul Thomas <mpt@myrealbox.com> wrote:
On Jun 26, 2006, at 7:49 PM, Joachim Noreiko wrote:
> ...
> --- Reinout van Schouwen <reinouts@gnome.org> wrote:
> ...
>> You are assuming that people read such messages. In reality,
>> unfortunately, they don't.
>
> Yes, they often don't. But have to assume they do and plan our UI
> around that assumption. Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and
> probably no user documentation either.
> ...

That's a long-term goal to work towards: alerts replaced by bug fixes
and better design, and "user documentation" replaced by helpful help
and better design.

But that's not the issue here. The issue is, given that there is an
error alert, which alert text is better: "Nautilus could not open the
file because the filetype is unknown", or "&operatingsystem; cannot
play MP3 files, because some countries allow software patents and Free
Software cannot pay patent licenses".

--
Matthew Paul Thomas
http://mpt.net.nz/

_______________________________________________
Usability mailing list
Usability@gnome.org
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability

------=_Part_11777_20547401.1151422195993-- From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Tue Jun 27 11:47:32 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC2E73B0110 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:47:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06333-09 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:47:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C26043B0172 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:47:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bell.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.9] helo=bell.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 27 Jun 2006 16:46:39 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:46:38 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: Gnome usability In-Reply-To: <4d9c6c340606270829v76184a30t1873601ca705e921@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4d9c6c340606270829v76184a30t1873601ca705e921@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:47:32 -0000 On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Simon Francis wrote: > Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:29:55 -0400 > From: Simon Francis > To: Matthew Paul Thomas > Cc: Gnome usability > Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions > > But OpenOffice and AbiWord open my Word documents fine which have patents. Do they? The newer XML formats might have some dodgy patents but I don't think the older Microsoft Word .doc had any patents and Rich Text Format was intended for sharing documents with other word processors (RTF is what Abiword actually uses). -- Alan From liam@holoweb.net Tue Jun 27 18:01:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FEF03B009D for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 18:01:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18927-05 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 18:01:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hd-t1637cl.privatedns.com (ip-209-172-34-239.reverse.privatedns.com [209.172.34.239]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6DEEF3B00B3 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 18:01:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 22820 invoked from network); 27 Jun 2006 22:01:16 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?127.0.0.1?) (127.0.0.1) by hd-t1637cl.privatedns.com with SMTP; 27 Jun 2006 22:01:16 -0000 From: Liam R E Quin To: Matthew Paul Thomas In-Reply-To: References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=-/ZZWHMx5iFlopzfnwJPX" Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:56:21 -0400 Message-Id: <1151445381.25012.65.camel@dell.barefootcomputing.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.2-1mdv2007.0 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.498 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.034, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_50_60=0.134, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.498 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Gnome usability Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 22:01:47 -0000 --=-/ZZWHMx5iFlopzfnwJPX Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 15:42 +1200, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: [...] > But that's not the issue here. The issue is, given that there is an > error alert, which alert text is better: "Nautilus could not open the > file because the filetype is unknown", or "&operatingsystem; cannot > play MP3 files, because some countries allow software patents and Free > Software cannot pay patent licenses". The latter isn't true. That is, (1) the operating system is actually likely to be technically capable of supporting MP3 players, and (2) it's trying to play a piece of music (one imagines) and not in fact trying to play a patent :-) More importantly, the right message in practice might be The distributor of this operating environment did not obtain permission to ship support for MPEG sound decoding (e.g. mp3) from the holder(s) of patents on the required techniques. If you know that the legal issues do not affect you, you can install support for MP3 files [here]. Contact your local politician to register a protest against the way that ideas can belong to corporations [here]. People are more likely to read messages if, from time to time, they contain useful information. Explain the problem, and help people to understand the issues, and then help them to do something about it. best, Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org --=-/ZZWHMx5iFlopzfnwJPX Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 15:42 +1200, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
[...] 
But that's not the issue here. The issue is, given that there is an 
error alert, which alert text is better: "Nautilus could not open the 
file because the filetype is unknown", or "&operatingsystem; cannot 
play MP3 files, because some countries allow software patents and Free 
Software cannot pay patent licenses".

The latter isn't true.  That is,
(1) the operating system is actually likely to be technically capable
    of supporting MP3 players, and
(2) it's trying to play a piece of music (one imagines) and not in
    fact trying to play a patent :-)

More importantly, the right message in practice might be

    The distributor of this operating environment did not obtain
    permission to ship support for MPEG sound decoding (e.g. mp3)
    from the holder(s) of patents on the required techniques.

    If you know that the legal issues do not affect you, you can
    install support for MP3 files [here].

    Contact your local politician to register a protest against
    the way that ideas can belong to corporations [here].

People are more likely to read messages if, from time to time,
they contain useful information.  Explain the problem, and
help people to understand the issues, and then help them to
do something about it.

best,

Liam

-- 
Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org
--=-/ZZWHMx5iFlopzfnwJPX-- From mpt@myrealbox.com Wed Jun 28 03:21:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B1753B000F for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 03:21:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30217-06 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 03:21:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from leucothea.redline.site5.com (leucothea.redline.site5.com [216.118.97.161]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B86653B0010 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 03:21:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 203-173-178-53.bliink.ihug.co.nz ([203.173.178.53] helo=[10.1.1.5]) by leucothea.redline.site5.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.52) id 1FvULi-0003jt-Gr; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 03:20:36 -0400 In-Reply-To: References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Matthew Paul Thomas Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 19:20:29 +1200 To: Gnome usability X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.624) X-Antivirus-Scanner: This message has been scanned by ClamAV. X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - leucothea.redline.site5.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnome.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - myrealbox.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.532 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.067, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.532 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 07:21:45 -0000 On Jun 28, 2006, at 2:36 AM, Alan Horkan wrote: > > On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > ... >> "Nautilus could not open the file because the filetype is unknown", >> or "&operatingsystem; cannot play MP3 files, because some countries >> allow software patents and Free Software cannot pay patent licenses". > > ... there are so many things wrong with that second sentence I will > not criticize it other than to say I hope you will retract it, or > rephrase it. > ... That (like most of your postings, alas) is critical but utterly unhelpful. How specifically would you improve the sentence? (I'm assuming that Gnome is considered to be Free Software by default, and if a distributor charges money for the inclusion of MP3-playing proprietary software in their OS, they can patch the message to suit the rare case where you've uninstalled that software.) -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ From fraggle@gmail.com Wed Jun 28 05:57:15 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4766C3B0002 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 05:57:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02935-01 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 05:57:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.236]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2F5F3B0079 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 05:57:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 55so716444wri for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 02:56:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.230.8 with SMTP id h8mr1022414qbr; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 02:56:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.64.181.11 with HTTP; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 02:56:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <301d395f0606280256r707ec315s178e5efe70da7fce@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 10:56:31 +0100 From: "Simon Howard" To: "Francesco Stablum" In-Reply-To: <377fd1f30605260335r3ef7c556s3f6724c44f8236f6@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <377fd1f30605260335r3ef7c556s3f6724c44f8236f6@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.494 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.094, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.494 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Copy & paste problem X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:57:15 -0000 On 5/26/06, Francesco Stablum wrote: > The problem is that there are two clipboard buffers and it can be very > annoying and conterintuitive to new unix/gnome users. Why not making a > single buffer? Most users new to Unix are unlikely to know about the PRIMARY selection pasting method (select + middle click). The problems are that you can select text to make a PRIMARY-style "copy" operation, but doing a "paste" using edit-paste will paste the CLIPBOARD selection instead, and similarly a middle-click will paste the PRIMARY selection, which doesn't work if you did edit-copy. The problem is, the only way to combine the two systems would involve copying to the clipboard whenever text is selected. This would make things even more confusing than they already are - imagine someone who selects some text in application 1, selects "edit-copy", then goes to application 2, selects some text (to replace) and hits "edit-paste". Nothing happens, because the clipboard was overwritten the second time he selected any text. I'd say that users are unlikely to stumble across the PRIMARY select paste method anyway. It doesn't interfere with the normal copy-and-paste method, which is what most Unix newbies are going to use. -- Simon Howard http://www.soulsphere.org/ From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Wed Jun 28 08:05:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ABF63B0204 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:05:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09357-07 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:05:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.198]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AB34D3B01B2 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:04:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 10999 invoked by uid 60001); 28 Jun 2006 12:04:12 -0000 Message-ID: <20060628120412.10997.qmail@web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.216.7.206] by web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:04:12 BST Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:04:12 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Simon Howard , Francesco Stablum In-Reply-To: <301d395f0606280256r707ec315s178e5efe70da7fce@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.692 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.740, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.692 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Copy & paste problem X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:05:49 -0000 --- Simon Howard wrote: > On 5/26/06, Francesco Stablum > wrote: > > The problem is that there are two clipboard > buffers and it can be very > > annoying and conterintuitive to new unix/gnome > users. Why not making a > > single buffer? > > Most users new to Unix are unlikely to know about > the PRIMARY > selection pasting method (select + middle click). > The problems are > that you can select text to make a PRIMARY-style > "copy" operation, but > doing a "paste" using edit-paste will paste the > CLIPBOARD selection > instead, and similarly a middle-click will paste the > PRIMARY > selection, which doesn't work if you did edit-copy. > > The problem is, the only way to combine the two > systems would involve > copying to the clipboard whenever text is selected. > This would make > things even more confusing than they already are - > imagine someone who > selects some text in application 1, selects > "edit-copy", then goes to > application 2, selects some text (to replace) and > hits "edit-paste". > Nothing happens, because the clipboard was > overwritten the second time > he selected any text. > > I'd say that users are unlikely to stumble across > the PRIMARY select > paste method anyway. It doesn't interfere with the > normal > copy-and-paste method, which is what most Unix > newbies are going to > use. This is true -- however, the existence of the PRIMARY system does have an impact on users, because across all GTK application windows, there can be only one selection. This breaks users' expectations of what an application is, because something they do in one window can affect the state of selection in another. There's a bug open for this, but most solutions suggested so far are looking at ways to highlight the selection considered for PRIMARY in some way, and nothing proposed so far is entirely satisfactory. Could there be a way to combine the two systems? What about using middle-click-&-drag to select text to copy, and middle-click to paste, using the regular clipboard? ___________________________________________________________ Does your mail provider give you FREE antivirus protection? Get Yahoo! Mail http://uk.mail.yahoo.com From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Wed Jun 28 08:56:50 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDEEF3B00BE for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:56:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11067-05 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:56:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8BD6D3B0083 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:56:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 28 Jun 2006 13:56:13 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:56:13 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan To: Matthew Paul Thomas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Gnome usability Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:56:50 -0000 On Wed, 28 Jun 2006, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 19:20:29 +1200 > From: Matthew Paul Thomas > To: Gnome usability > Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions > > On Jun 28, 2006, at 2:36 AM, Alan Horkan wrote: > > > > On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > That (like most of your postings, alas) is critical but utterly > unhelpful. How specifically would you improve the sentence? See the post Liam Quinn made, it described the issue well. > >> "Nautilus could not open the file because the filetype is unknown", > >> or "&operatingsystem; cannot play MP3 files, because some countries > >> allow software patents and Free Software cannot pay patent licenses". Using the phrase "some countries" in the error message begs the questions which countries? These kinds of ambiguities are best avoided in error messages, it is like answering a users question with another question they are unlikely to know the answer to so it can be very annoying. Software patents may be the root cause of the problem but distributions could choose to license the software from Fleundo so it is a overly complicated way to preset the issue to the user in what should be short and simple error message. > > ... there are so many things wrong with that second sentence I will > > not criticize it other than to say I hope you will retract it, or > > rephrase it. I was hoping you could see that although your sentiment was well intentioned you propesd actions and confusing choice of text were "utterly unhelpful" (sic) but it seems you couldn't even recognise your own mistake and instead of getting all defensive about it and resorting to personal attacks. Admittedly my posts may be rushed and far from perfect but but I try only to provide some timely response of some kind rather than leave questions unanswered. I do not make any claims of expertise and I do not cry foul when others point my mistakes - it may be annoying but I try to learn from them and improve what I'm doing - since I am here to try and help make the software better in whatever way I can manage. I do not have the luxury of being employed to work on Free Software development. > (I'm assuming that Gnome is considered to be Free Software by default, That is not a safe assumption. Many Gnome developers do believe in the ideas of the Free Software Foundation but there is no certain answer that would make your assumption a safe one, Alan Cox and Richard Stallman are not clear on whether it is or not: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/2006-June/msg00098.html For the ordinary users the relevant points are the distributor has chosen not to license the software, or is prevented from (or at least believes the even the threat of legal action is not worth risking) includinging a free version due to legal reason. The freedom issue is important but secondary and only make the error message longer and more confusing. > and if a distributor charges money for the inclusion of MP3-playing > proprietary software in their OS, they can patch the message to suit > the rare case where you've uninstalled that software.) So showing a dialog might be suitable but the message must as simple and direct as possible. -- Alan H. From d2004@cosmopod.com Tue Jun 27 19:42:15 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F1C73B0010 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:42:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21597-07 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:42:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 64.cosmopod.com (unknown [216.75.2.64]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E949F3B0005 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:42:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 64.cosmopod.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by 64.cosmopod.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k5RNfGcX017982 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:41:17 -0700 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by 64.cosmopod.com (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k5RNf9TV017912 for usability@gnome.org; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:41:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: 64.cosmopod.com: d2004 set sender to d2004@cosmopod.com using -f From: d2004@cosmopod.com To: usability@gnome.org Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:41:04 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200606271641.06914.d2004@cosmopod.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.038, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_REAL_NAME=0.961] X-Spam-Score: -1.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:59:56 -0400 Subject: [Usability] Consistency Issue between EOG and gThumb X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 23:42:15 -0000 Dear All, I am a long time GNOME user (but not a developer) and occasional reader of this mailing list. This is my first post though. I have a small usability/consistency issue, which, though rather trivial, is something of a "pet hate" for me. On playing with Fedora Core 6 Test 1 last night, I saw it is still present in the GNOME development build 2.15.2, so I thought I would raise it with you. If the user opens a graphic in gThumb and maximises it to "Full Screen" view (F11) and then zooms in (+ key) they can pan around the image using the cursors. If they then want to move to the next or previous graphic in the directory, they can use the Page Up or Page Down keys. This is all fine, so far as I am concerned. Unfortunately, Eye of GNOME (EOG) has somewhat different behaviour, that makes the two tools inconsistent with each other. On opening a graphic, switching to "Full Screen" view and zooming in, the cursors can no longer be used for panning around. Instead, pressing the up, down, left or right cursors switch the user to the previous or next graphic in the directory. Panning must be done with the mouse instead of keyboard shortcuts. My preference would definitely be that EOG be modified so that the cursors are used for panning, not for moving forwards and backwards between graphics. I have a few other questions not necessarily related to usability but I thought I would raise them. I am aware of the legal/patent concerns around playing regionally-encrypted DVDs in some nations such as the US. I normally download the rpms for Xine, including the deCSS one and use that which works fine. However, having installed DeCSS on my system, I still cannot use Totem as my player. Does Totem need to be recompiled? It would be good to modify the application so that simply installing DeCSS would enable Totem to locate it as a plug-in, thus making the default player usable for those of us in countries without these legal issues by simply adding this one file. Secondly, I am quite intrigued by Project Soylent but there is little information with regard to release dates on the website. Do you have any indication when we will start seeing the fruits of this labour? Will it be in Topaz or in a future 2.x build? Thirdly, having seen the list of Chabada's suggestions that are currently being debated on this list, I can affirm that, as an end user, I would definitely find all that he has suggested to be of benefit, including extra file information displayed in Nautilus, the Evolution mail previews and the use of GNOME Baker as part of the core desktop. More explanation in error/information messages regarding why MP3s and the like cannot be played would also be a benefit in educating users, even if some people do not read the messages. Finally, keep up the good work. I would love to see GNOME gain some more momentum in terms of adoption by desktop users. Keep striving for it! Danni From gnome-Usability@m.gmane.org Wed Jun 28 15:54:19 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86C8C3B019A for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:54:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30946-06 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:54:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51A763B008A for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:54:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Fvg6m-0003PT-M8 for Usability@gnome.org; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:53:56 +0200 Received: from 208.255.6.238 ([208.255.6.238]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:53:56 +0200 Received: from hawke by 208.255.6.238 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:53:56 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: Usability@gnome.org From: Alex Mauer Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:53:44 -0500 Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1151445381.25012.65.camel@dell.barefootcomputing.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig1F6DB6AB10F6CA222F800EE1" X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.255.6.238 User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) In-Reply-To: <1151445381.25012.65.camel@dell.barefootcomputing.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Sender: news X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.933 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.168, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=1.5, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -0.933 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 19:54:19 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig1F6DB6AB10F6CA222F800EE1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> Software cannot pay patent licenses". >=20 > The latter isn't true. That is, > (2) it's trying to play a piece of music (one imagines) and not in > fact trying to play a patent :-) "pay" is not the same as "play" --------------enig1F6DB6AB10F6CA222F800EE1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEot5Pspyc9T9S9Z8RAheWAJ9P+Ten7TVJfNyqLpkMgxG5vqKctACeOgrB b22evmr31rdj0wWzBrwZboo= =5ySV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig1F6DB6AB10F6CA222F800EE1-- From gnome-Usability@m.gmane.org Wed Jun 28 16:05:19 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D6EA3B01CE for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:05:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31334-06 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:05:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F9DD3B00DA for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:05:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1FvgGS-00058t-VK for Usability@gnome.org; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:03:56 +0200 Received: from 208.255.6.238 ([208.255.6.238]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:03:56 +0200 Received: from hawke by 208.255.6.238 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:03:56 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: Usability@gnome.org From: Alex Mauer Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:02:18 -0500 Lines: 45 Message-ID: References: <301d395f0606280256r707ec315s178e5efe70da7fce@mail.gmail.com> <20060628120412.10997.qmail@web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigF18874BA74D82C3519B16B37" X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.255.6.238 User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) In-Reply-To: <20060628120412.10997.qmail@web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Sender: news X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.085 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=1.5, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.085 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Copy & paste problem X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:05:19 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigF18874BA74D82C3519B16B37 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Joachim Noreiko wrote: > This is true -- however, the existence of the PRIMARY > system does have an impact on users, because across > all GTK application windows, there can be only one > selection. This breaks users' expectations of what an > application is, because something they do in one > window can affect the state of selection in another. >=20 > There's a bug open for this, but most solutions > suggested so far are looking at ways to highlight the > selection considered for PRIMARY in some way, and > nothing proposed so far is entirely satisfactory. Has it been proposed that PRIMARY holds the most recent selection, but making a new selection does not deselect the previous one? This seems to be the closest match to expectations, while keeping interference between PRIMARY and clipboard to a minimum. Is there anything unsatisfactory about this? > Could there be a way to combine the two systems? Is there any need to? --------------enigF18874BA74D82C3519B16B37 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEouBRspyc9T9S9Z8RAifGAJ9KrY0cHyUjd6uyvn0T2JWvtaNApwCeM2A+ oAkMWT1YVKCZluP9R3Gt0cY= =h+Uw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigF18874BA74D82C3519B16B37-- From gezimetc@shaw.ca Thu Jun 29 02:32:15 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F166A3B0206 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:32:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22815-10 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:32:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pd2mo1so.prod.shaw.ca (shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net [24.71.223.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8A5A3B000B for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:32:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pd4mr8so.prod.shaw.ca (pd4mr8so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.101]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1L008GTZF4UU80@l-daemon> for Usability@gnome.org; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 00:30:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml1so.prod.shaw.ca ([10.0.121.145]) by pd4mr8so.prod.shaw.ca (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1L00048ZF4MRC0@pd4mr8so.prod.shaw.ca> for Usability@gnome.org; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 00:30:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from laptopi ([70.65.137.227]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1L006YPZF3RJ61@l-daemon> for Usability@gnome.org; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 00:30:40 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 00:30:39 -0600 From: Gezim Hoxha In-reply-to: To: Alex Mauer Message-id: <1151562639.7932.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <301d395f0606280256r707ec315s178e5efe70da7fce@mail.gmail.com> <20060628120412.10997.qmail@web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.394 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.837, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST=1.708, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.394 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Copy & paste problem X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 06:32:15 -0000 On Wed, 2006-28-06 at 15:02 -0500, Alex Mauer wrote: > Joachim Noreiko wrote: > > This is true -- however, the existence of the PRIMARY > > system does have an impact on users, because across > > all GTK application windows, there can be only one > > selection. This breaks users' expectations of what an > > application is, because something they do in one > > window can affect the state of selection in another. > > > > There's a bug open for this, but most solutions > > suggested so far are looking at ways to highlight the > > selection considered for PRIMARY in some way, and > > nothing proposed so far is entirely satisfactory. > > Has it been proposed that PRIMARY holds the most recent selection, but > making a new selection does not deselect the previous one? This seems > to be the closest match to expectations, while keeping interference > between PRIMARY and clipboard to a minimum. What you're saying is that PRIMARY should hold the second most recent selection (saying this because you say that it should hold the most recent selection but if you selection something that is no longer the most recent selection)? If this is the case than this behaviour is not necessarily desired, because if I select a URL and then open a new tab in epiphany, there is no URL so, I'd just place the cursor at the URL bar and want to paste the _most_ recent selection, rather then the second most recent one. However, if I wanted to go to that URL from the current tab, then I'd want to paste the second most recent selection since when I click the URL bar the current URL will be selected. -Gezim From dalibor.petricevic@iskon.hr Thu Jun 29 02:56:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5532A3B011E for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:56:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23860-03 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:56:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mxout2.iskon.hr (mxout2.iskon.hr [213.191.128.16]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 37F293B013B for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:56:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 14767 invoked from network); 29 Jun 2006 08:55:55 +0200 X-Remote-IP: 213.191.142.122 Received: from unknown (HELO mx.iskon.hr) (213.191.142.122) by mxout2.iskon.hr with SMTP; 29 Jun 2006 08:55:55 +0200 Received: (qmail 9508 invoked from network); 29 Jun 2006 08:55:55 +0200 X-Remote-IP: 213.191.128.133 Received: from lan.iskon.hr (HELO ?10.0.3.242?) (213.191.128.133) by mx.iskon.hr with SMTP; 29 Jun 2006 08:55:55 +0200 Message-ID: <44A3797B.7070509@iskon.hr> Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:55:55 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-2?Q?Dalibor_Petri=E8evi=E6?= User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Mauer References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1151445381.25012.65.camel@dell.barefootcomputing.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.11 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_05=-1.11] X-Spam-Score: -1.11 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 09:00:16 -0400 Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 06:56:03 -0000 Alex Mauer wrote: >>> Software cannot pay patent licenses". >> The latter isn't true. That is, >> (2) it's trying to play a piece of music (one imagines) and not in >> fact trying to play a patent :-) > > "pay" is not the same as "play" > This statement is 100% true. :-) -- dado From michael.s.gilbert@gmail.com Sun Jun 11 17:26:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3548B3B066D for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:26:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03372-02 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:26:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.198]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71B863B00C2 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:26:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so898841wxd for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 14:26:15 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=E6x4g84w3Wxy2kgsEZWnXCIto/u+bgbiVNUy8s0bEacoZyrS++1h7nSw17dMVy0l08l8XUJMB2wAM/jzt1NghBZBUDRXxWz9jj338jjNZIYZdCYv93fLKS2atVJI5kuo6c1KeprSWUCcpHQWmZc+d+hIXsSTUrBKNUmbpUM2pyY= Received: by 10.70.132.12 with SMTP id f12mr5681715wxd; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 14:26:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.65.5 with HTTP; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 14:26:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <8e2a98be0606111426w7d6407fdj68c34573295b317@mail.gmail.com> From: "Michael Gilbert" To: "Matthew Paul Thomas" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 09:59:24 -0400 Cc: Gnome usability , 371882@bugs.debian.org Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 21:26:54 -0000 X-Original-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:26:15 -0400 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 21:26:54 -0000 hello Matthew, thank you for looking further into these issues. On 6/9/06, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > Hardly surprising: a file search definitely isn't a "place". It's not > an application either, but at least "Applications" looks vaguely like a > Start menu. the best solution is probably an item called something like "File Finder" placed in either "Applications" or "Applications -> System Tools." my gut tells me system tools is better, but that menu is already quite cluttered. > The default should be to search everything you can access, just like in > Web search engines, agreed. > Fortunately the dialog doesn't use the inscrutable "/" terminology, but > "File System" isn't much better, and the icon for it seems to be a > harmonica. Unfortunately there isn't really any good name for > "collection of obscurely-named things that has your files hidden in it > somewhere, and your programs in it spread across several other places, > but which can't be called your hard disk because it has your other > drives hidden inside it too". i think that "All Files" is a more intuitive description for "/" than "File System," and encompasses the needs of your above description. > This is a bug in that while the Find tool tells you "No files found", > it does not mention what it was searching for, so there is no way to > distinguish between a search that has finished with no results and one > that hasn't started yet. note that if one has done a search the dialog will say "No files found" even if the user begins typing a different search term. at this point the software is lying because it doesn't know whether or not there are no files matching the new term. it would be better for the "No files found" feedback to disappear the moment the user modifies the search term or changes any item in the dialog. > Thanks for your interesting report. you're quite welcome. i'm glad to do my part to help make software better. have a nice day. mike From wohler@newt.com Tue Jun 13 12:23:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCF4E3B0071 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:23:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29812-05 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:23:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tassie.newt.com (tassie.newt.com [70.85.162.231]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06F753B00D9 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:23:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from olgas.newt.com (m590e36d0.tmodns.net [208.54.14.89]) by tassie.newt.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F3B71D0A3D; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:22:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by olgas.newt.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 937AF16FB4; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:22:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from olgas.newt.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by olgas.newt.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8971216FAD; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:22:36 -0700 (PDT) To: Calum Benson In-reply-to: References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <1149868755.7852.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <17538.1149869665@olgas.newt.com> Comments: In-reply-to Calum Benson message dated "Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:06:57 +0100." Organization: Newt Software X-Mailer: MH-E 8.0; nmh 1.1; GNU Emacs 22.0.50 X-Image-URL: http://www.newt.com/wohler/images/bill-diving.png Message-ID: <3515.1150215756@olgas.newt.com> From: Bill Wohler X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.062 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.054, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.456] X-Spam-Score: -1.062 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 09:59:24 -0400 Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 16:23:36 -0000 X-Original-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:22:36 -0700 X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 16:23:36 -0000 Calum Benson wrote: > On 9 Jun 2006, at 17:14, Bill Wohler wrote: > > > > Well, I tried C-PageUp/Down in the GtkTreeView widget (in GnuCash), > > and I have no idea what it's doing. > > In a tree view, Ctrl+PgUp/PgDn should be moving focus to the item at > the top or bottom of the current view; in other controls, it's the > shortcut for scrolling left/right: > > http://www.gnome.org/learn/access-guide/latest/keynav-23.html#keynav-35 > > If it's doing something else, it's either a bug, or it's been over- > ridden by a developer who thinks they know better :) Thanks, Calum. Well, that's not what I'm seeing. A GnuCash developer told me that he wouldn't overwrite the GtkTreeView bindings to allow C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs so it's unlikely that it has been overridden. A puzzler indeed. I'll mention this to the developers. I still think that the HIG should specify C-PageUp/Down for moving between tabs and that other widgets should not use this binding. -- Bill Wohler http://www.newt.com/wohler/ GnuPG ID:610BD9AD Maintainer of comp.mail.mh FAQ and MH-E. If you're passed on the right, you're in the wrong lane. From akrodha@gmx.de Sun Jun 25 16:05:29 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B13103B0C45 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 16:05:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30044-07 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 16:05:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.21]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 98BBF3B0A3E for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 15:57:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 25 Jun 2006 19:57:31 -0000 Received: from p54B9E419.dip.t-dialin.net (EHLO [192.168.2.23]) [84.185.228.25] by mail.gmx.net (mp020) with SMTP; 25 Jun 2006 21:57:31 +0200 X-Authenticated: #19803887 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7DB7E6BF-0358-4181-AAAC-514F63FBE93D@gmx.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: usability@gnome.org From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9_Alvarado?= Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 21:57:27 +0200 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 08 Jul 2006 10:30:56 -0400 Subject: [Usability] Alt-drag panel items? X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 20:05:30 -0000 Hello everyone I'm a huge fan of the Alt-drag trick for moving windows around. I was =20= wondering if the same thing could be done with the panel? Currently =20 moving panel items is a mess. Most can only be moved by right-=20 clicking and selecting move, although some of them (application =20 launchers) can simply be dragged=E2=80=94provided they're not locked. Maybe we can simplify the panel by locking ALL items (thereby =20 removing the need for the "Lock" context menu item), but letting the =20 user Alt-drag them around (thereby removing the need for the "Move" =20 context menu item) and maybe even dragging them off the panel or into =20= the Wastebasket (thereby removing the need for the "Remove" context =20 menu item). This could free up the context menu for other purposes. Does it sound like a good idea? =E2=80=93Jos=C3=A9 Alvarado, newcomer to the mailing list P.S. I commented in Bugzilla (http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?=20 id=3D303135), but I figured this might interest the Usability group. =E0=A5=90 From maurizio.colucci@gmail.com Sat Jun 3 09:44:58 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84B783B0071 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 09:44:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06472-03 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 09:44:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.225]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C22D3B04A9 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 09:44:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 50so711416wri for ; Sat, 03 Jun 2006 06:44:54 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=ueyQCybpWPMALDzDI3limxwRxIl77AriXASXgdjlnwOf+AW372pd6t9Vb64sFv7dsEpKBavtuMpnHsa4Xdronef3L9406qVAygiWe4PvwRYktPpImW1ASpjnKdnamNKMdXcz01o7/cM+dRHHr0HLE4di4q6Ou3KdSXFa3hRNpCo= Received: by 10.64.195.9 with SMTP id s9mr2455617qbf; Sat, 03 Jun 2006 06:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.237.7 with HTTP; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 06:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 15:44:54 +0200 From: "Maurizio Colucci" To: usability@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_18723_27366656.1149342294208" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.457 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.142, BAYES_05=-1.11, HTML_00_10=0.795, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.457 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Usability] Fingerprint reader X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 13:44:58 -0000 ------=_Part_18723_27366656.1149342294208 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi, Yesterday, when I had a friend of mine try the new Ubuntu, I had an unpleasant suprise: he laughed at me when he saw me type the password by hand. It seems he has been using a fingerprint reader under Windows, for more than a year now. I realized this is a feature that he will not do without, now he has gotten used to it. It seems the advantage under GNU/Linux would be even greater, since GNU/Linux requires you to type passwords more often than Windows. Is there some way to use a fingerprint reader to type passwords with Gnome? (My guess is it isn't, and that some work would be needed at the level of gksu and gdm.) I have no real point however, I only wished to inform you about this. Cheers Maurizio ------=_Part_18723_27366656.1149342294208 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi,
Yesterday, when I had a friend of mine try the new Ubuntu, I had an unpleasant suprise: he laughed at me when he saw me type the password by hand. It seems he has been using a fingerprint reader under Windows, for more than a year now.

I realized this is a feature that he will not do without, now he has gotten used to it.

It seems the advantage under GNU/Linux would be even greater, since GNU/Linux requires you to type passwords more often than Windows.

Is there some way to use a fingerprint reader to type passwords with Gnome? (My guess is it isn't, and that some work would be needed at the level of gksu and gdm.)

I have no real point however, I only wished to inform you about this. Cheers

Maurizio
------=_Part_18723_27366656.1149342294208-- From herzi@gnome-de.org Sat Jun 3 10:16:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39D073B0418 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:16:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08377-05 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:16:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.bytecamp.net (mail.bytecamp.net [212.204.60.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4B0413B011C for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:16:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 49673 invoked by uid 85); 3 Jun 2006 14:16:19 -0000 Received: from herzi@gnome-de.org by mail.bytecamp.net by uid 88 with qmail-scanner-1.20 (clamscan: 0.88.1 Clear:RC:0(80.171.61.188):. Processed in 0.020755 secs); 03 Jun 2006 14:16:19 -0000 Received: from d061188.adsl.hansenet.de (HELO wallace) (herzi%gnome-de.org@80.171.61.188) by mail.bytecamp.net with SMTP; 3 Jun 2006 14:16:18 -0000 Subject: Re: [Usability] Fingerprint reader From: Sven Herzberg To: Maurizio Colucci In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-eRqHlUcxkMCx8gO/XwrP" Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 17:35:30 +0200 Message-Id: <1149348930.5442.12.camel@wallace> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.48 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.042, BAYES_00=-2.599, TW_GD=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.48 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 14:16:27 -0000 --=-eRqHlUcxkMCx8gO/XwrP Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sa, 2006-06-03 at 15:44 +0200, Maurizio Colucci wrote: > Yesterday, when I had a friend of mine try the new Ubuntu, I had an > unpleasant suprise: he laughed at me when he saw me type the password > by hand. It seems he has been using a fingerprint reader under > Windows, for more than a year now.=20 >=20 > I realized this is a feature that he will not do without, now he has > gotten used to it.=20 >=20 > It seems the advantage under GNU/Linux would be even greater, since > GNU/Linux requires you to type passwords more often than Windows.=20 >=20 > Is there some way to use a fingerprint reader to type passwords with > Gnome? (My guess is it isn't, and that some work would be needed at > the level of gksu and gdm.)=20 The fingerprint readers in the Thinkpad X41 series do work with Linux and work with the pam-bio-api plugin. I tested this both with gdm and gksu and it works (not perfectly but, well, it wors). I only didn't test it with gnome keyring (which will be an important thing too). > I have no real point however, I only wished to inform you about this. > Cheers=20 Regards, Sven --=-eRqHlUcxkMCx8gO/XwrP Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEgaxCBWX9a7HDCv4RAn03AKDFQ6419PZ/XzvvDpkjxBimpH0sywCfawZV RYa+Y4FgXJ2XedGWhwxW8uc= =Ocwk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-eRqHlUcxkMCx8gO/XwrP-- From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Sat Jun 3 10:17:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D17B43B05AE for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:17:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08314-10 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:17:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 28FB03B0601 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:17:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 3 Jun 2006 15:17:44 +0100 (BST) Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 15:17:44 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan To: Maurizio Colucci Subject: Re: [Usability] Fingerprint reader In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 14:17:50 -0000 On Sat, 3 Jun 2006, Maurizio Colucci wrote: > Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 15:44:54 +0200 > From: Maurizio Colucci > To: usability@gnome.org > Subject: [Usability] Fingerprint reader > > Hi, > Yesterday, when I had a friend of mine try the new Ubuntu, I had an > unpleasant suprise: he laughed at me when he saw me type the password by > hand. It seems he has been using a fingerprint reader under Windows, for > more than a year now. This is a bit off topic for this list. Better to check with Ubuntu about hardware support. > It seems the advantage under GNU/Linux would be even greater, since > GNU/Linux requires you to type passwords more often than Windows. (It is easier to just type Gnome than GNU/Linux every time.) A topic more appropriate to this list would be trying to figure out ways to improve password sharing and single sign on so that you do not need to type passwords so often. > Is there some way to use a fingerprint reader to type passwords with Gnome? I assume it would fit in with the existing password infrastructure. I know Sun Microsystems have systems setup to login and authenticate off a smart card and there are suggestions of doing the same using USB keys so I'd be surprised if there wasn't already a supported finger print reader but it may take a little bit of additional work to get it up and running. > I have no real point however, I only wished to inform you about this. Cheers Thanks for trying. -- Alan From elektro@geekspot.de Sun Jun 4 11:01:01 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10C033B016C for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 11:01:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24057-03 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 11:00:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.169199.vserver.de (riedrich.biz [62.75.169.199]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45FC53B011B for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 11:00:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.169199.vserver.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id E21EB338804F for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:00:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp.169199.vserver.de ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (169199.vserver.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19483-02 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:00:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Desktop.lan (d463d0c7.datahighways.de [212.99.208.199]) by smtp.169199.vserver.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4E35338804D for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:00:39 +0200 (CEST) From: elektro To: usability@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 17:00:39 +0200 Message-Id: <1149433239.10978.15.camel@desktop> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: By ClamAV on Debian GNU/Linux at Geekspot X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.465 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.465 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Usability] The "Desktop" dilemma X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 15:01:01 -0000 Hi there, I'm new to this mailing list, so I don't know if this has already been discussed or not. What really disturbs me a lot (in almost all operating systems) is the "Desktop dilemma". I think the desktop folder, or the Desktop button in the places menu somehow just doesn't fit in. In Nautilus, in my home folder, I have a "Desktop" folder. But in the sidebar, I have a place called "personal folder", and a second place called "Desktop", although "Desktop" is also a sub-directory of my "personal folder". This is confusing, especially to new users. I think the desktop should be _either_ a directory, _or_ a place, but not both. My suggestion would be to have the desktop only show up as a place, and the files on the desktop could be stored in a hidden ".desktop" directory within the user's home. Another thing is the two Nautilus toolbar buttons "Personal folder" and "Computer". The button in the toolbar says "Personal folder", while the same button in the sidebar reads my username. I think both buttons should be removed, instead, the "Computer" icon should also appear as a button in the "places" sidebar. I'd bring some new arrangement into the places sidebar, similar to the one in the "Places" menu in the panel: -------- Personal Desktop -------- Computer File system -------- Network servers -------- The problem with the current layout is that all drives are completely mixed together, the "file system" place is also somewhere in between. When you go the the "Computer" place, you see all attached/mounted drives as icons. The problem is that it's hard to see if a drive is actually mounted or not, for example my USB stick: It's hard to see from the icon if it is mounted or not. What I also really miss is the ability to unmount/eject an external drive be right-clicking the icon in the sidebar or in the Places menu. Mac OS X is doing this right: An mounted CD-ROM appars in a Finder sidebar, similar to Nautilus, but there's a little "eject button" next to the icon, when you click this, the CD is unmounted and ejected. Perhaps you could add such an eject button to the places sidebar and the places panel menu. Tom From david@sipsolutions.net Sun Jun 4 14:35:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B06D43B017A for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 14:35:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03644-08 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 14:35:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sipsolutions.net (crystal.sipsolutions.net [195.210.38.204]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DE083B0130 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 14:35:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [84.133.205.221] (helo=[192.168.1.7]) by sipsolutions.net with esmtpsa (TLS-1.0:RSA_ARCFOUR_MD5:16) (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FmxRy-0007EF-Op; Sun, 04 Jun 2006 19:35:47 +0100 Subject: Re: [Usability] The "Desktop" dilemma From: David Christian Berg To: elektro In-Reply-To: <1149433239.10978.15.camel@desktop> References: <1149433239.10978.15.camel@desktop> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 20:34:58 +0200 Message-Id: <1149446101.8310.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 18:35:51 -0000 Hey Tom! > I think the desktop should be _either_ a directory, _or_ a place, but > not both. My suggestion would be to have the desktop only show up as a > place, and the files on the desktop could be stored in a hidden > ".desktop" directory within the user's home. Would you be ok with displaying the desktop as a desktop icon in the home directory as well so that it's easily distinguishable from other folders? > Another thing is the two Nautilus toolbar buttons "Personal folder" and > "Computer". The button in the toolbar says "Personal folder", while the > same button in the sidebar reads my username. I think both buttons > should be removed, instead, the "Computer" icon should also appear as a > button in the "places" sidebar. In my version the folder reads "Home Folder" and the button "Go to home folder" I don't think there's anything wrong with this, because many people might not use the tree view on the sidepane. The computer icon is not needed in the tree view, because you see the drives anyways > I'd bring some new arrangement into the places sidebar, similar to the > one in the "Places" menu in the panel: > > -------- > Personal > Desktop > -------- > Computer > File system > > > > -------- > Network servers > > -------- > The problem with the current layout is that all drives are completely > mixed together, the "file system" place is also somewhere in between. I do like the idea of dividing them this way and also would add a separate section for mounted media like cams and usb sticks, floppies and CDs... if possible. However, does GTK TreeView have a dividing element? As for the Computer: I'd leave it unchanged > When you go the the "Computer" place, you see all attached/mounted > drives as icons. The problem is that it's hard to see if a drive is > actually mounted or not, for example my USB stick: It's hard to see from > the icon if it is mounted or not. What I also really miss is the ability > to unmount/eject an external drive be right-clicking the icon in the > sidebar or in the Places menu. Mac OS X is doing this right: An mounted > CD-ROM appars in a Finder sidebar, similar to Nautilus, but there's a > little "eject button" next to the icon, when you click this, the CD is > unmounted and ejected. Perhaps you could add such an eject button to the > places sidebar and the places panel menu. Afaik you only see the icon, if it is mounted... at least it should be that way with all the media. Take care! David From chris@gnome-de.org Mon Jun 5 09:09:35 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 849453B0208 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:09:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00391-01 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:09:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.bytecamp.net (mail.bytecamp.net [212.204.60.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 56FE63B02DA for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:09:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 3177 invoked by uid 85); 5 Jun 2006 13:09:21 -0000 Received: from chris@gnome-de.org by mail.bytecamp.net by uid 88 with qmail-scanner-1.20 (clamscan: 0.88.1 Clear:RC:0(84.150.144.79):. Processed in 0.190123 secs); 05 Jun 2006 13:09:21 -0000 Received: from p5496904f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (HELO ?192.168.123.191?) (chris@gnome-de.org@84.150.144.79) by mail.bytecamp.net with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 13:09:20 -0000 Subject: Re: [Usability] Fingerprint reader From: Christian Neumair To: Maurizio Colucci In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 15:02:50 +0200 Message-Id: <1149512570.8272.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.587 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.012, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.587 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:09:35 -0000 Am Samstag, den 03.06.2006, 15:44 +0200 schrieb Maurizio Colucci: > Hi, > Yesterday, when I had a friend of mine try the new Ubuntu, I had an > unpleasant suprise: he laughed at me when he saw me type the password > by hand. It seems he has been using a fingerprint reader under > Windows, for more than a year now. > > I realized this is a feature that he will not do without, now he has > gotten used to it. > > It seems the advantage under GNU/Linux would be even greater, since > GNU/Linux requires you to type passwords more often than Windows. > > Is there some way to use a fingerprint reader to type passwords with > Gnome? (My guess is it isn't, and that some work would be needed at > the level of gksu and gdm.) > > I have no real point however, I only wished to inform you about this. > Cheers I filed an Ubuntu spec some months ago: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FingerprintAuthentication All the tools seem to be available already. As soon as the framework is in place, we'll adapt the GNOME stack to support it, creating a configuration and authentication UI, and gnome-keyring integration. I contacted the BioAPI packager Michael R. Crusoe some time ago to ask him whether he will split up the packages a bit, but I didn't get any response so far. From hadess@hadess.net Mon Jun 5 15:50:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9155B3B085A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:50:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26525-04 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:50:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lucifer.nerdfest.org (lucifer.nerdfest.org [216.243.209.218]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 426593B08B0 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:50:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.5] (cpc4-glfd1-0-0-cust751.glfd.cable.ntl.com [86.16.126.240]) (authenticated bits=0) by lucifer.nerdfest.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k55JoPoh009983 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:50:28 -0500 Subject: Re: [Usability] Fingerprint reader From: Bastien Nocera To: Maurizio Colucci In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:55:11 +0100 Message-Id: <1149537312.9198.9.camel@wyatt.hadess.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.5.90 (2.5.90-2.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.88.2/1512/Sun Jun 4 04:58:49 2006 on lucifer.nerdfest.org X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.594 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.006, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.594 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:50:45 -0000 On Sat, 2006-06-03 at 15:44 +0200, Maurizio Colucci wrote: > Hi, > Yesterday, when I had a friend of mine try the new Ubuntu, I had an > unpleasant suprise: he laughed at me when he saw me type the password > by hand. It seems he has been using a fingerprint reader under > Windows, for more than a year now. A combination of pam_keyring, and the pam modules Sven mentioned should do: http://www.hekanetworks.com/index.php/publisher/articleview/frmArticleID/25/staticId/31/ -- Bastien Nocera From glatzor@ubuntu.com Tue Jun 6 08:03:14 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEBF33B08AA for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:03:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19222-06 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:03:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail-out.m-online.net (mail-out.m-online.net [212.18.0.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6463D3B0979 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:02:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail01.m-online.net (svr21.m-online.net [192.168.3.149]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76F2672CC4 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:02:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pimpzkru.dyndns.org (ppp-62-245-208-121.mnet-online.de [62.245.208.121]) by mail.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CBC891424 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:02:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pimpzkru.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE831D2C38 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:16:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pimpzkru.dyndns.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (server.daheim [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32591-08 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:16:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from sebi-mac.daheim (sebi-mac.daheim [10.169.18.2]) by pimpzkru.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9B05D2C2C for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:16:31 +0200 (CEST) From: Sebastian Heinlein To: usability@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 14:01:40 +0200 Message-Id: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at pimpzkru X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.435 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.029, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.435 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Usability] Using nouns or verbs for the disclosure widgets X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:03:15 -0000 Hi, would you recommend to use a noun for the disclosure widgets e.g. "Details" or verbs e.g. "Show details"/"Hide details"? There is no corresponding section in the HIG. And both variants are in use currently. Regards, Sebastian From raeth.phox@gmail.com Tue Jun 6 08:19:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9826F3B08AA for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:19:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20110-07 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:19:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.172]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7004D3B0141 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:19:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id o2so1645338uge for ; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 05:18:59 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=tzLanvgM7DJ/K0gtFSV1wYYqtq8vky0oxlEnHI8oKGZofqP/pbVnOLV7L7iYyewPK9Gme2GZTeyuoMqaNb3XagvchsF2X4ZxJVbIEFZZLbxc9pw44qz/1fjm8q28B7cABezCyBe6Dbv4CVDkQNx8+mmYVGk7Jp+NK9CFUNLM1Tg= Received: by 10.78.18.1 with SMTP id 1mr1130306hur; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 05:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.50.15 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 05:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <878a8ff60606060518h749cc845x32a54fa2ded2650d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 13:18:59 +0100 From: Raeth Subject: Re: [Usability] Using nouns or verbs for the disclosure widgets Cc: usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.042 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.558, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.042 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:19:03 -0000 Hey, I'd go with "Show/Hide details", as it indicates whether the details are being currently shown or hidden. I think a verb would be more fitting with natural language. If I wanted to see the details, I'd want to "show details". I wouldn't go "details" to hide or show them. If they were on a tab you'd want the objective noun, like a title, but seeing as the disclosure widget is an action, I'd go with an action phrase. A verb would correspond with the such commonly used verbs as "save file" and "cancel". Raeth On 6/6/06, Sebastian Heinlein wrote: > Hi, > > would you recommend to use a noun for the disclosure widgets e.g. > "Details" or verbs e.g. "Show details"/"Hide details"? > > There is no corresponding section in the HIG. And both variants are in > use currently. > > Regards, > > Sebastian From Calum.Benson@Sun.COM Tue Jun 6 18:39:53 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81A1D3B01E8 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 18:39:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26404-10 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 18:39:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B08643B00E6 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 18:39:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-01.sun.com (d1-emea-01.sun.com [192.18.2.111] (may be forged)) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k56Mdlui019400 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 23:39:47 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-01.sun.com by d1-emea-01.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0G00H01HQ39T00@d1-emea-01.sun.com> (original mail from Calum.Benson@Sun.COM) for usability@gnome.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 23:39:46 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([213.202.177.89]) by d1-emea-01.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0G00IGYMYAOE00@d1-emea-01.sun.com>; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 23:39:46 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 23:39:43 +0100 From: Calum Benson Subject: Re: [Usability] Using nouns or verbs for the disclosure widgets In-reply-to: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> Sender: Calum.Benson@Sun.COM To: Sebastian Heinlein Message-id: <5FB97E1B-5914-4EB7-9674-ADDF1C47C503@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 22:39:53 -0000 On 6 Jun 2006, at 13:01, Sebastian Heinlein wrote: > would you recommend to use a noun for the disclosure widgets e.g. > "Details" or verbs e.g. "Show details"/"Hide details"? Hmm... out if interest I looked at the Apple guidelines, and it said that verbs were preferred, then illustrated the guideline with an example using a noun :) Seems like it's not just our HIG that has that kind of problem... http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/ OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGControls/chapter_18_section_7.html#//apple_ref/ doc/uid/TP30000359-TPXREF141 Personally, I've always labelled disclosure widgets in the same way I'd label a frame, i.e. with a noun (but without the bold text, of course). The direction of the arrow, in conjunction with the presence or absence of controls below it, seems sufficient to indicate the current shown/hidden status IMHO. And dynamically changing text is never much fun for screenreaders to keep up with either. > There is no corresponding section in the HIG. Yeah, that placeholder's been there a while :/ I really want to get stuck into the HIG post-GUADEC (assuming I'm not one of Sun's unlucky 5000....) Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:calum.benson@sun.com Java Desktop System Team http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Wed Jun 7 05:42:50 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13CA93B0C9A for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 05:42:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32165-01 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 05:42:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 339AA3B0AE7 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 05:42:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 7 Jun 2006 10:42:44 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 10:42:42 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan To: Calum Benson Subject: Re: [Usability] Using nouns or verbs for the disclosure widgets In-Reply-To: <5FB97E1B-5914-4EB7-9674-ADDF1C47C503@sun.com> Message-ID: References: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> <5FB97E1B-5914-4EB7-9674-ADDF1C47C503@sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 09:42:50 -0000 On Tue, 6 Jun 2006, Calum Benson wrote: [...] > Yeah, that placeholder's been there a while :/ I really want to get > stuck into the HIG post-GUADEC (assuming I'm not one of Sun's unlucky > 5000....) If you are among the unlucky hundreds it would be a serious loss to Gnome, since you seem to be the only usability professional actively helping on this list anymore. If there are other usability professionals here rather than enthusiastic amateurs please do feel free to (re)introduce yourselves. -- Alan From gnome-Usability@m.gmane.org Wed Jun 7 18:55:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11D1B3B0E64 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 18:55:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20656-09 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 18:55:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2131A3B0DED for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 18:55:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Fo6w6-0002OX-Iw for Usability@gnome.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:55:38 +0200 Received: from h-68-165-5-38.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.5.38]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:55:38 +0200 Received: from wohler by h-68-165-5-38.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:55:38 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: Usability@gnome.org From: Bill Wohler Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 15:55:24 -0700 Organization: Newt Software Lines: 20 Message-ID: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: h-68-165-5-38.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:VJ8cSiv38JexgyR7BZmb2CDKtXA= Sender: news X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 22:55:52 -0000 I think it is common to use C-PageUp and C-PageDown to move between tabs (for example, Galeon). Is this true? The latest version of GnuCash has tabs, and I'd like to be able to use keyboard navigation to move between them. Note that the tabs have different views using different GTK widgets. Currently, some of the tabs, such as the account tree view, allow C-M-PageUp and C-M-PageDown. Should the developers override the GtkTreeView widget so that C-PageUp and C-PageDown move between the tabs? Should this widget be fixed so that these keystrokes move between tabs by default? Or, something else entirely? I look forward to your thoughts. -- Bill Wohler http://www.newt.com/wohler/ GnuPG ID:610BD9AD Maintainer of comp.mail.mh FAQ and MH-E. If you're passed on the right, you're in the wrong lane. From newren@gmail.com Wed Jun 7 19:18:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDB033B0381 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:18:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22064-05 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:18:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.196]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B32933B019C for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:18:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so308940wxd for ; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 16:18:46 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=TWqobyNh87WUejW4RD35y63ZAvcLUk+QGiLvnvF+KPzTm9RHFZF5VjW7d7y89W/8kJt5+sbkOZFTBJUsJR1d8YM4amj/MEV+YRxnVBediNYQs9Km6z3RNHwua8n60ly83WjGy6d7j97OMrGnJZgPCTD6u1syejJPGylqaWkIzho= Received: by 10.70.73.15 with SMTP id v15mr1343030wxa; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 16:18:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.7 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 16:18:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 17:18:28 -0600 From: "Elijah Newren" To: "Bill Wohler" Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs In-Reply-To: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.575 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.575 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 23:18:49 -0000 On 6/7/06, Bill Wohler wrote: > I think it is common to use C-PageUp and C-PageDown to move between > tabs (for example, Galeon). Is this true? Also used by Mozilla, Firefox, Epiphany, X-Chat, and gnome-terminal, at least. I was planning on adding a keybinding based off it (C-A-PageUp/PageDown) for Metacity for multiscreen (non-xinerama) users to switch the focus between screens (see bug 101659). So, I'd say it's becoming fairly common. Would be nice if there were even greater consistency among apps in this area (gedit, for example, doesn't play along and it took me a while to figure out the keybinding). From Calum.Benson@Sun.COM Wed Jun 7 19:42:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5B033B0E85 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:42:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23635-02 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:42:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D516F3B036A for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:42:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-05.sun.com (d1-emea-05.sun.com [192.18.2.115] (may be forged)) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k57NgGIx020123 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 00:42:16 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-05.sun.com by d1-emea-05.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0I00K01DXE8100@d1-emea-05.sun.com> (original mail from Calum.Benson@Sun.COM) for Usability@gnome.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:42:15 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([194.125.112.30]) by d1-emea-05.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0I00I7RKIFLH30@d1-emea-05.sun.com>; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:42:15 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:42:11 +0100 From: Calum Benson Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs In-reply-to: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> Sender: Calum.Benson@Sun.COM To: Bill Wohler Message-id: <8D893175-CF50-4807-B113-1A7D97A2E36A@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 23:42:20 -0000 On 7 Jun 2006, at 23:55, Bill Wohler wrote: > I think it is common to use C-PageUp and C-PageDown to move between > tabs (for example, Galeon). Is this true? > > The latest version of GnuCash has tabs, and I'd like to be able to use > keyboard navigation to move between them. Note that the tabs have > different views using different GTK widgets. Currently, some of the > tabs, such as the account tree view, allow C-M-PageUp and > C-M-PageDown. > > Should the developers override the GtkTreeView widget so that > C-PageUp and C-PageDown move between the tabs? Should this widget be > fixed so that these keystrokes move between tabs by default? Or, > something else entirely? Well, Ctrl-Alt-PgUp/PgDn is the documented[1] alternative for places that Ctrl-PgUp/PgDn doesn't/can't work (i.e. because of the focused control using Ctrl-PgUp/PgDn itself). Unless we can come up with a plan for avoiding the collisions that require the use of Alt in some situations, I'd recommend sticking with the current consistent-if-a- little-clunky behaviour, rather than overriding it in some places but (inevitably) not others. Cheeri, Calum. [1] http://www.gnome.org/learn/access-guide/latest/ keynav-23.html#keynav-33 -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:calum.benson@sun.com Java Desktop System Team http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems From mpt@myrealbox.com Wed Jun 7 20:08:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 565953B04C8 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 20:08:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24932-06 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 20:08:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from leucothea.redline.site5.com (leucothea.redline.site5.com [216.118.97.161]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A22143B0384 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 20:08:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ool-44c0bc13.dyn.optonline.net ([68.192.188.19] helo=[192.168.0.5]) by leucothea.redline.site5.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.52) id 1Fo84Q-0007No-7s; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 20:08:18 -0400 In-Reply-To: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> References: <1149595300.6792.6.camel@sebi-mac> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <83a57a3908c9daadda5812fafca772a5@myrealbox.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Matthew Paul Thomas Subject: Re: [Usability] Using nouns or verbs for the disclosure widgets Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 20:07:37 -0400 To: Gnome usability X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.623) X-Antivirus-Scanner: This message has been scanned by ClamAV. X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - leucothea.redline.site5.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnome.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - myrealbox.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:08:27 -0000 On Jun 6, 2006, at 8:01 AM, Sebastian Heinlein wrote: > ... > would you recommend to use a noun for the disclosure widgets e.g. > "Details" or verbs e.g. "Show details"/"Hide details"? > ... Hi Sebastian I suggest making the label a summary of the values of the disclosed controls, if practical, not just a description. "Details" is the least informative example of a description, and may be appropriate if you want the expander to be very unobtrusive. But a more informative label may reduce the need for people to expand the section at all. For example, |> Progress details which expands to __ \/ Progress details Time remaining: about 11 minutes Progress: 15 of 29 items Copying: vilanova_presentation.ogg Size: 10.0 MB of 45.0 MB is much less useful than |> Time remaining: about 11 minutes which expands to __ \/ Time remaining: about 11 minutes Progress: 15 of 29 items Copying: vilanova_presentation.ogg Size: 10.0 MB of 45.0 MB Conversely, a more informative label may give a clue of unusual things that you set accidentally, or that you set long ago and then forgot about. For example: __ \/ Custom style sheet (2 rules active) __________________________________________________________ |:link, :visited {text-decoration: underline !important} | |a[href^="javascript:"] {color: green !important} | | | |__________________________________________________________| Switching between "Show Foo" and "Hide Foo" would make the function of the control more obvious, but it would also make the label jump around between collapsed and expanded states. It also would result in ugly repetition where several expander controls were next to each other. For example, repeating "Show" Printing the heading for each in a formatting palette would expandable area by itself is look nasty: much easier to scan: ___________________________ ___________________________ |(X) Formatting (-)| |(X) Formatting (-)| |___________________________| |___________________________| |_>_Show_Font_Settings______| |_>_Font____________________| |_>_Show_Paragraph_Settings_| |_>_Paragraph_______________| |_>_Show_List_Settings______| |_>_List____________________| |_>_Show_Border_Settings____| |_>_Border__________________| |_>_Show_Page_Settings______| |_>_Page____________________| Cheers -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ From nigel.tao.gnome@gmail.com Thu Jun 8 02:08:21 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B93C23B0585 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 02:08:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10570-08 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 02:08:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.229]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8F183B0576 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 02:08:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 50so362302wri for ; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 23:08:17 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=G3ca7jhamDoCoDkkhkKhrUk2Q8C8QWNKTdZLp99+4qZYcnpQa0AU5XGm6ozUs1WCS3EzZwoGN55kTdpnL2dlPPIx9cpa5uYOGLhRDC8u+PuWuWFWj4zh5KNrGruUt74CaE1J7kC758zhIHElrqc9XnBPALEbQIL98Mb9LntRxtE= Received: by 10.64.47.19 with SMTP id u19mr1451658qbu; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 23:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.214.18 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 23:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9188fcea0606072308n35ce5008xcd047c8cd7fca53d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 16:08:16 +1000 From: "Nigel Tao" To: "Elijah Newren" Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs In-Reply-To: <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.569 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.031, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.569 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org, Bill Wohler X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 06:08:21 -0000 > Would be nice if there were even > greater consistency among apps in this area (gedit, for example, > doesn't play along and it took me a while to figure out the > keybinding). Somewhat tangential, I recently wrote a gedit plugin so that C-PageUp and C-PageDown switches between tabs. C-A-PageUp and C-A-PageDown still works, too. http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gedit-list/2006-May/msg00039.html From nudrema@gmail.com Thu Jun 8 02:10:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 508793B0564 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 02:10:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10923-04 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 02:10:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swip.net (mailfe03.swip.net [212.247.154.65]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C74D73B0576 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 02:10:38 -0400 (EDT) X-T2-Posting-ID: Ee7YIbSG3O5rNcT4cGADretWTWrDEjpwS9FwzyhFhzk= X-Cloudmark-Score: 0.000000 [] Received: from [83.182.30.136] (HELO [10.0.0.13]) by mailfe03.swip.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.8) with ESMTP id 217242419 for Usability@gnome.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 08:10:36 +0200 Message-ID: <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 08:10:33 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Steve_Fr=E9cinaux?= User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060522) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.964 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.434, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_NEUTRAL=1.069] X-Spam-Score: -1.964 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 06:10:41 -0000 Elijah Newren wrote: > On 6/7/06, Bill Wohler wrote: >> I think it is common to use C-PageUp and C-PageDown to move between >> tabs (for example, Galeon). Is this true? > > Also used by Mozilla, Firefox, Epiphany, X-Chat, and gnome-terminal, > at least. Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown is the accelerator the HIG recommend for the Gnome desktop. > I was planning on adding a keybinding based off it > (C-A-PageUp/PageDown) for Metacity for multiscreen (non-xinerama) > users to switch the focus between screens (see bug 101659). So, I'd > say it's becoming fairly common. Before doing that remember that Ctrl+Alt+PageUp/PageDown is the fallback shortcut for switching tabs that is used when Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown is not available. It's stated in the HIG (iirc) and is used, for instance, by gedit. > Would be nice if there were even > greater consistency among apps in this area (gedit, for example, > doesn't play along and it took me a while to figure out the > keybinding). Gedit suffers the same problem than Bill's software: the Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown key combination is eaten by GtkTextView, at Gtk level (for going to the next/previous paragraph, iirc). The actual accelerator will be more discoverable in further gedit versions since there is now a menu entry for switching tab (as there is one in epiphany, for instance) From lool+gnome@via.ecp.fr Thu Jun 8 15:47:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 617B03B04B1 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 15:47:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00800-04 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 15:47:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx0.bpl-group.org (mx0.bpl-group.org [195.115.71.69]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D15523B0766 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 15:47:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bee.dooz.org (levallois.dooz.org [81.57.180.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "lminier.people.bpl-group.org", Issuer "BPL Group People Certification Authority" (verified OK)) by mx0.bpl-group.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BDAEC4C9; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 21:47:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: by bee.dooz.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4E5D24F02FA; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 21:47:22 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 21:47:22 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lo=EFc?= Minier To: usability@gnome.org, 371882@bugs.debian.org Message-ID: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.575 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.024, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.575 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 19:47:33 -0000 Hi, Michael Gilbert (michael.s.gilbert -at- gmail.com) explained his experience when introducing GNOME to people otherwise running Windows in Debian bug http://bugs.debian.org/371882: """ at work the other day a couple windows-locked coworkers of mine were attempting to use a fedora system. they were attempting to figure out if a particular application was available on the system. they had no idea where to go to do a file search (they expected it to be in the start menu, but gave up after they found it wasn't under applications). so then they tried nautilus, but couldn't figure out where to go. they dropped down to / where they were even more dumbfounded. a comment was "what are all these directories and how am i supposed to find anything in this mess." i suggested looking in /usr/local and /opt but both came up empty. i suggested that they try the search under the gnome places menu, at which point they were able to find some similarity to their expectations. at first they used the defaults and only searched in their home directory (inadvertently assuming that the file must not be on the disk even though their search path was too limited), at which point i said you should search from the / directory. they opened the gnome file selector, and could not figure out how to pick / (in fact they didn't understand the concept of /, or how it relates to something like c:). i also didn't know how to select / directly from the gnome file selector this, but eventually figured out if you select the topmost directory breakout at the top of the file selector that you will get / as your selection. this is very non-obvious and needs to be fixed. so they tried their search, which completed *way* too fast for their expectations (likely because they are used to windows searches taking significant time to search an entire disk because file lists are not cached as scrollkeeper does). so i did a "find / | grep fname" which also came up empty to indicate to them that indeed the file they were looking for was not on the system. at one point another comment was "it seems like they do things differently just to be different," referring to the gnome desktop in general vs windows. anyway, hope you can find some useful bits from the mindset virgin gnome users. need more details? just ask. """ I initially tried opening a discussion at , but was suggested that this list would be a better place. (Please keep 371882@bdo in copy and add 371882-submitter@bdo if you want to copy Michael Gilbert.) Bye, -- Loïc Minier From bjourne@gmail.com Fri Jun 9 11:32:25 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E57533B0147 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:32:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02538-08 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:32:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.207]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E55FB3B02F7 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:32:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so654060wxd for ; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 08:32:21 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=McMsr9UbsQrkheYyfxiAcapOm/Xuc8Of7xlng/xz9cIKh1tbNMbqtyQLEGG11aQZzS4UMFABCCwUeMApOsqGEyjlKyNjv31WRTSfb8ug64jiJ6+CK1KrhYm1K4yxwDY7xqzGIerl00hQwi6n43htIWUBOSyNAcATL6NHQDUEG4A= Received: by 10.70.62.1 with SMTP id k1mr3581069wxa; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 08:32:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.115.6 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 08:32:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:32:19 +0200 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?BJ=F6rn_Lindqvist?=" To: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs In-Reply-To: <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.496 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.027, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001, TW_MV=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.496 X-Spam-Level: Cc: X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 15:32:25 -0000 > Gedit suffers the same problem than Bill's software: the > Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown key combination is eaten by GtkTextView, at Gtk > level (for going to the next/previous paragraph, iirc). The actual Wouldn't the right solution then be to fix GtkTextView so that it doesn't steal Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown? --=20 mvh Bj=F6rn From gnome-Usability@m.gmane.org Fri Jun 9 11:50:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 009143B032D for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:50:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03783-02 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:50:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE4163B024A for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:50:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1FojFO-00052n-5Z for Usability@gnome.org; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 17:50:06 +0200 Received: from h-68-165-4-198.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.4.198]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 17:50:06 +0200 Received: from wohler by h-68-165-4-198.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 17:50:06 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: Usability@gnome.org From: Bill Wohler Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 08:49:10 -0700 Organization: Newt Software Lines: 15 Message-ID: <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: h-68-165-4-198.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:rY1IfAkLd+KrTmPRanzn/dE9Bdc= Sender: news X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: [Usability] Re: Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 15:50:33 -0000 "BJörn Lindqvist" writes: >> Gedit suffers the same problem than Bill's software: the >> Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown key combination is eaten by GtkTextView, at Gtk >> level (for going to the next/previous paragraph, iirc). The actual > > Wouldn't the right solution then be to fix GtkTextView so that it > doesn't steal Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown? And GtkTreeView and possibly others. That's what I was thinking. Doable? -- Bill Wohler http://www.newt.com/wohler/ GnuPG ID:610BD9AD Maintainer of comp.mail.mh FAQ and MH-E. If you're passed on the right, you're in the wrong lane. From Calum.Benson@Sun.COM Fri Jun 9 11:59:21 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D20323B02F7 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:59:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04251-01 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:59:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD6AD3B024A for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:59:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-01.sun.com ([192.18.2.111]) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k59FxGjj008284 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:59:18 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-01.sun.com by d1-emea-01.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0L00D01NQKYK00@d1-emea-01.sun.com> (original mail from Calum.Benson@Sun.COM) for Usability@gnome.org; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:59:16 +0100 (BST) Received: from vpn-129-150-116-25.UK.Sun.COM ([129.150.116.25]) by d1-emea-01.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0L008BXOER2330@d1-emea-01.sun.com>; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:59:16 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:59:14 +0100 From: Calum Benson Subject: Re: [Usability] Re: Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs In-reply-to: <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> Sender: Calum.Benson@Sun.COM To: Bill Wohler Message-id: <1149868755.7852.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Organization: Sun Microsystems Ireland Ltd. MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.582 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.582 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 15:59:22 -0000 On Fri, 2006-06-09 at 08:49 -0700, Bill Wohler wrote: > "BJörn Lindqvist" writes: > > >> Gedit suffers the same problem than Bill's software: the > >> Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown key combination is eaten by GtkTextView, at Gtk > >> level (for going to the next/previous paragraph, iirc). The actual > > > > Wouldn't the right solution then be to fix GtkTextView so that it > > doesn't steal Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown? > > And GtkTreeView and possibly others. That's what I was thinking. Doable? More than likely, but only if you can suggest alternative keybindings for those existing TextView/TreeView functions that are sufficiently consistent/discoverable. Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:calum.benson@sun.com Java Desktop System Group http://ie.sun.com +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems From gnome-Usability@m.gmane.org Fri Jun 9 12:19:37 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ECF33B1112 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 12:19:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05786-06 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 12:19:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FC813B1120 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 12:19:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1FojhH-0003Ev-L0 for Usability@gnome.org; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 18:18:55 +0200 Received: from h-68-165-4-198.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net ([68.165.4.198]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 18:18:55 +0200 Received: from wohler by h-68-165-4-198.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 18:18:55 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: Usability@gnome.org From: Bill Wohler Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 09:18:45 -0700 Organization: Newt Software Lines: 27 Message-ID: <87slme715m.fsf@olgas.newt.com> References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <1149868755.7852.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: h-68-165-4-198.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:BstvWzstfMaA5FgcQdtcEdthMak= Sender: news X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.597 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.004, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.597 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: [Usability] Re: Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:19:37 -0000 Calum Benson writes: > On Fri, 2006-06-09 at 08:49 -0700, Bill Wohler wrote: >> "BJörn Lindqvist" writes: >> >> >> Gedit suffers the same problem than Bill's software: the >> >> Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown key combination is eaten by GtkTextView, at Gtk >> >> level (for going to the next/previous paragraph, iirc). The actual >> > >> > Wouldn't the right solution then be to fix GtkTextView so that it >> > doesn't steal Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown? >> >> And GtkTreeView and possibly others. That's what I was thinking. Doable? > > More than likely, but only if you can suggest alternative keybindings > for those existing TextView/TreeView functions that are sufficiently > consistent/discoverable. Well, I tried C-PageUp/Down in the GtkTreeView widget (in GnuCash), and I have no idea what it's doing. It's sort of like PageUp/Down, but it doesn't move the screen the same amount. Suffice to say, I would not mourn its loss. -- Bill Wohler http://www.newt.com/wohler/ GnuPG ID:610BD9AD Maintainer of comp.mail.mh FAQ and MH-E. If you're passed on the right, you're in the wrong lane. From mpt@myrealbox.com Fri Jun 9 16:56:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC7DA3B01AB for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:56:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20116-10 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:56:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from leucothea.redline.site5.com (leucothea.redline.site5.com [216.118.97.161]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11A453B0122 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:56:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ool-44c0bc13.dyn.optonline.net ([68.192.188.19] helo=[192.168.0.5]) by leucothea.redline.site5.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.52) id 1Foo1c-00028w-53; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:56:12 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> References: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Matthew Paul Thomas Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:38:35 -0400 To: Gnome usability X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.623) X-Antivirus-Scanner: This message has been scanned by ClamAV. X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - leucothea.redline.site5.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnome.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - myrealbox.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Cc: michael.s.gilbert@gmail.com X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 20:56:18 -0000 On Jun 8, 2006, at 3:47 PM, Lo=EFc Minier wrote: > ... > """ > at work the other day a couple windows-locked coworkers of mine were > attempting to use a fedora system. they were attempting to figure out > if a particular application was available on the system. they had no > idea where to go to do a file search (they expected it to be in the > start menu, but gave up after they found it wasn't under = applications). Hardly surprising: a file search definitely isn't a "place". It's not=20 an application either, but at least "Applications" looks vaguely like a=20= Start menu. > so then they tried nautilus, but couldn't figure out where to go. =20 > they dropped down to / where they were even more dumbfounded. a=20 > comment was "what are all these directories and how am i supposed to=20= > find anything in this mess." That problem will continue until Fedora begins using human-readable=20 directory names (like GoboLinux, Mac OS, and Windows all do to varying=20= extents). > ... > i suggested that they try the search under the gnome places menu, at > which point they were able to find some similarity to their > expectations. at first they used the defaults and only searched in > their home directory (inadvertently assuming that the file must not be > on the disk even though their search path was too limited), Again, they were right and the OS was wrong. The default should be to=20 search everything you can access, just like in Web search engines,=20 because (a) you are likely to be searching for programs, which usually=20= aren't in your home folder, and (b) searching everything will usually=20 be quicker (as you suggested later) than choosing a correct scope then=20= searching within that. > at which point i said you should search from the / directory. they=20 > opened the gnome file selector, and could not figure out how to pick /=20= > (in fact they didn't understand the concept of /, or how it relates to=20= > something like c:). i also didn't know how to select / directly from=20= > the gnome file selector this, but eventually figured out if you select=20= > the topmost directory breakout at the top of the file selector that=20= > you will get / as your selection. this is very non-obvious and needs=20= > to be fixed. Fortunately the dialog doesn't use the inscrutable "/" terminology, but=20= "File System" isn't much better, and the icon for it seems to be a=20 harmonica. Unfortunately there isn't really any good name for=20 "collection of obscurely-named things that has your files hidden in it=20= somewhere, and your programs in it spread across several other places,=20= but which can't be called your hard disk because it has your other=20 drives hidden inside it too". > so they tried their search, which completed *way* too fast for their > expectations (likely because they are used to windows searches taking > significant time to search an entire disk because file lists are not > cached as scrollkeeper does). > ... This is a bug in that while the Find tool tells you "No files found",=20 it does not mention what it was searching for, so there is no way to=20 distinguish between a search that has finished with no results and one=20= that hasn't started yet. Thanks for your interesting report. --=20 Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/= From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Sun Jun 11 11:05:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C6083B0088 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 11:05:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15678-04 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 11:05:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AB3C83B0084 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 11:05:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 11 Jun 2006 16:04:32 +0100 (BST) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 16:04:32 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lo=EFc?= Minier Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" In-Reply-To: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> Message-ID: References: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 15:05:20 -0000 On Thu, 8 Jun 2006, [iso-8859-1] Lo=EFc Minier wrote: > Michael Gilbert (michael.s.gilbert -at- gmail.com) explained his > experience when introducing GNOME to people otherwise running Windows in > Debian bug http://bugs.debian.org/371882: > """ > at work the other day a couple windows-locked coworkers of mine were > attempting to use a fedora system. they were attempting to figure out > if a particular application was available on the system. I do think things would be easier for windows users (in fact easier than windows) if Gnome were using a single main menu on the bottom left corner which is what Novell are doing. Strangely enough it was Novell/Ximian who proposed the two panel layout in the first place even though they have since abandoned it (this was discussed quite recently but I dont expect the two panel layout to go away anytime soon). The run dialog can be useful in this case. If you know the application name and type it in then if it is installed the icon will appear in the dialog and when you hit okay the application will run. If you do not know the application name (why not?) the run dialog (or some versions of it at least) have an expander which opens to show a flat list of available applications. I cannot say about Debian but while using Ubuntu I did notice I sometimes applications do not appear in menus right after you install them but a logout and log back in usually sorts that out. I'm trying to think why you might need to search for these applications in the first place rather than choose from what is available in the menus. A package manager like Synaptic might be a good way to check what programs are installed, it also includes a search tool. > idea where to go to do a file search (they expected it to be in the > start menu, but gave up after they found it wasn't under applications). A file search is intended for documents and other user files If you are looking for programs you are not expected to use the file search. > so then they tried nautilus, but couldn't figure out where to go. they > dropped down to / where they were even more dumbfounded. a comment was > "what are all these directories and how am i supposed to find anything > in this mess." Not much change from Microsoft then. ;P > i suggested looking in /usr/local and /opt but both came up empty. If you have given up on the Desktop and had to resort to the command line then a good way to find things is using the "locate" utitlity. When hunting for programs the command "apropos" can be very useful too (especially on BSD where the man pages are better). > i suggested that they try the search under the gnome places menu, at > which point they were able to find some similarity to their > expectations. at first they used the defaults and only searched in > their home directory (inadvertently assuming that the file must not be > on the disk even though their search path was too limited), at which > point i said you should search from the / directory. they opened the > gnome file selector, and could not figure out how to pick / (in fact > they didn't understand the concept of /, or how it relates to something > like c:). i also didn't know how to select / directly from the gnome > file selector this, but eventually figured out if you select the topmost > directory breakout at the top of the file selector that you will get / > as your selection. this is very non-obvious and needs to be fixed. so > they tried their search, which completed *way* too fast for their > expectations (likely because they are used to windows searches taking > significant time to search an entire disk because file lists are not > cached as scrollkeeper does). so i did a "find / | grep fname" which > also came up empty to indicate to them that indeed the file they were > looking for was not on the system. > > at one point another comment was "it seems like they do things > differently just to be different," referring to the gnome desktop in > general vs windows. *cough* *cough* splutter! Understatement. Things have gotten better and are getting better all the time, file bugs where you see them. At least horrible anachronisms like the "Druid dialogs" are on the way out (that really was a case of being different from Wizards just for the sake of being different). Sincerely Alan Horkan Inkscape http://inkscape.org Abiword http://www.abisource.com Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/ From Calum.Benson@Sun.COM Tue Jun 13 12:08:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B31DC3B000A for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:08:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29211-06 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:08:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0934E3B000C for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:08:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-10.sun.com (d1-emea-10.sun.com [192.18.2.120] (may be forged)) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5DG73iU003213 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:07:03 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-10.sun.com by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0T00B013ET6M00@d1-emea-10.sun.com> (original mail from Calum.Benson@Sun.COM) for Usability@gnome.org; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:07:03 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([129.150.116.239]) by d1-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0T00H9Z3FRHT70@d1-emea-10.sun.com>; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:07:03 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:06:57 +0100 From: Calum Benson Subject: Re: [Usability] Re: Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs In-reply-to: <17538.1149869665@olgas.newt.com> Sender: Calum.Benson@Sun.COM To: Bill Wohler Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <1149868755.7852.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <17538.1149869665@olgas.newt.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.582 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.582 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 16:08:13 -0000 On 9 Jun 2006, at 17:14, Bill Wohler wrote: > > Well, I tried C-PageUp/Down in the GtkTreeView widget (in GnuCash), > and > I have no idea what it's doing. In a tree view, Ctrl+PgUp/PgDn should be moving focus to the item at the top or bottom of the current view; in other controls, it's the shortcut for scrolling left/right: http://www.gnome.org/learn/access-guide/latest/keynav-23.html#keynav-35 If it's doing something else, it's either a bug, or it's been over- ridden by a developer who thinks they know better :) Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:calum.benson@sun.com Java Desktop System Team http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems From Calum.Benson@Sun.COM Wed Jun 14 13:26:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F32D3B0156 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 13:26:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26510-02 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 13:26:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60F1D3B0135 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 13:26:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-02.sun.com (d1-emea-02.sun.com [192.18.2.112] (may be forged)) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5EHPMb5010739 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 18:25:22 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-02.sun.com by d1-emea-02.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0V00K011HFZ600@d1-emea-02.sun.com> (original mail from Calum.Benson@Sun.COM) for Usability@gnome.org; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 18:25:22 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([129.150.116.135]) by d1-emea-02.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0V00FZN1Q9TE10@d1-emea-02.sun.com>; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 18:25:22 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 18:25:16 +0100 From: Calum Benson In-reply-to: <3515.1150215756@olgas.newt.com> Sender: Calum.Benson@Sun.COM To: Bill Wohler Message-id: <645F3922-742E-4B5E-8D69-37D56C69E503@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <1149868755.7852.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <17538.1149869665@olgas.newt.com> <3515.1150215756@olgas.newt.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.583 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.015, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.583 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 17:26:46 -0000 On 13 Jun 2006, at 17:22, Bill Wohler wrote: > Calum Benson wrote: > >> On 9 Jun 2006, at 17:14, Bill Wohler wrote: >>> >>> Well, I tried C-PageUp/Down in the GtkTreeView widget (in GnuCash), >>> and I have no idea what it's doing. >> >> In a tree view, Ctrl+PgUp/PgDn should be moving focus to the item at >> the top or bottom of the current view; in other controls, it's the >> shortcut for scrolling left/right: >> >> http://www.gnome.org/learn/access-guide/latest/ >> keynav-23.html#keynav-35 >> >> If it's doing something else, it's either a bug, or it's been over- >> ridden by a developer who thinks they know better :) > > Thanks, Calum. Well, that's not what I'm seeing. A GnuCash developer > told me that he wouldn't overwrite the GtkTreeView bindings to allow > C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs so it's unlikely that it has been > overridden. A puzzler indeed. I'll mention this to the developers. > > I still think that the HIG should specify C-PageUp/Down for moving > between tabs and that other widgets should not use this binding. I'd agree that this has been a bugbear long enough that we should probably try a bit harder to fix it properly. The controls that use Ctrl+PgUp/PgDn just to move focus could possibly just do without (by default, at least); you can always hit Ctrl+up/down a few times instead. The ones that use them for scrolling left/right might be trickier, but I'll need to try and put together a complete list before I try and figure something out. Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:calum.benson@sun.com Java Desktop System Team http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems From michael.s.gilbert@gmail.com Fri Jun 16 22:20:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D0D43B033A for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2006 22:20:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32034-02 for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2006 22:20:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.196]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC9A03B02DB for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2006 22:20:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id h29so524273wxd for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2006 19:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.52.10 with SMTP id z10mr4997505wxz; Fri, 16 Jun 2006 19:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.65.5 with HTTP; Fri, 16 Jun 2006 19:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <8e2a98be0606161919x9a20c7dld5fc3a4715960f2b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 22:19:21 -0400 From: "Michael Gilbert" To: horkana@maths.tcd.ie In-Reply-To: <8e2a98be0606161901j5c6edfdcj3acd734a2ee19751@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> <8e2a98be0606111426w7d6407fdj68c34573295b317@mail.gmail.com> <8e2a98be0606161901j5c6edfdcj3acd734a2ee19751@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 09:59:24 -0400 Cc: usability@gnome.org, 371882@bugs.debian.org Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 02:20:40 -0000 Alan Horkan wrote: >The run dialog can be useful in this case. If you know the application >name and type it in then if it is installed the icon will appear in the >dialog and when you hit okay the application will run. If you do not know >the application name (why not?) the run dialog (or some versions of it at >least) have an expander which opens to show a flat list of available >applications. The users were having trouble finding a "find files" application in the applications menu. The did not even attempt to find the program they were looking for in the applications menu. >A package manager like Synaptic might be a good way to check what programs >are installed, it also includes a search tool. Synaptic is a confusing mess. If I were a new user, I would totally avoid it. I still avoid it...but only because I apt-get is so much easier and direct. > A file search is intended for documents and other user files > If you are looking for programs you are not expected to use the file > search. I don't think we should be in the game of telling the user how she is to use her computer. We should be making it as intuitive and broadly useful for the user to user her computer. If she expects to search for executables or system files (due to her poor os upbringing) then it should be perfectly reasonable and obvious for her to do so. we should not be forcing anyone to learn the unix way (find and locate). well maybe it would be useful for the find dialog to say something like, this is what i'm doing 'find / 2>/dev/null | grep fname' click here to learn more about how to use the power of the unix shell to enhance your computing expertise. thanks you for your thoughts. mike From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Sun Jun 18 13:08:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A9E93B0BF5 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 13:08:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04550-02 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 13:08:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 128B53B00B2 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 13:08:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 18 Jun 2006 18:07:14 +0100 (BST) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 18:07:14 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <8e2a98be0606161919x9a20c7dld5fc3a4715960f2b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: References: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> <8e2a98be0606111426w7d6407fdj68c34573295b317@mail.gmail.com> <8e2a98be0606161901j5c6edfdcj3acd734a2ee19751@mail.gmail.com> <8e2a98be0606161919x9a20c7dld5fc3a4715960f2b@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 17:08:12 -0000 [Removed CC's.] On Fri, 16 Jun 2006, Michael Gilbert wrote: > Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 22:19:21 -0400 > From: Michael Gilbert > To: horkana@maths.tcd.ie > Cc: 371882@bugs.debian.org, usability@gnome.org > Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes > with gnome virgins" > > Alan Horkan wrote: > >The run dialog can be useful in this case. If you know the application > >name and type it in then if it is installed the icon will appear in the > >dialog and when you hit okay the application will run. If you do not know > >the application name (why not?) the run dialog (or some versions of it at > >least) have an expander which opens to show a flat list of available > >applications. > > The users were having trouble finding a "find files" application in > the applications menu. The did not even attempt to find the program > they were looking for in the applications menu. Accomodating users is one thing but it is difficult to help users who are unwilling to even look through the Applications menu. Having said that Novell have their own redesigned setup (which may already be available) which does in fact include a search widget directly in the main menu. Mockups can be seen here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/gamehack/sets/1506658/ > >A package manager like Synaptic might be a good way to check what programs > >are installed, it also includes a search tool. > > Synaptic is a confusing mess. I see you added Debian to the CC list, since Synaptic is a Debian only program not Gnome I will let them comment. > avoid it. I still avoid it...but only because I apt-get is so much > easier and direct. Ubuntu inlcude a simpler frontend to Synaptic which makes things easier for basic adding and removing of programs, you might want to try it. > > A file search is intended for documents and other user files > > > If you are looking for programs you are not expected to use the file > > search. > > I don't think we should be in the game of telling the user how she is > to use her computer. I dont disagree. I was describing how thing are and how best to work around them rather than the ideal situation. The _intention_ of the designers was that find tool would be for finding documents rather than programs. > We should be making it as intuitive and broadly useful for the user to > user her computer. If she expects to search for executables or system > files (due to her poor os upbringing) then it should be perfectly > reasonable and obvious for her to do so. we should not be forcing > anyone to learn the unix way (find and locate). Since you had already given up on the graphical user interface I was explaining how to get more out of the command line, I would not have mentioned it otherwise and I believe if a user feels like they "need" to user the command line the real issue is the Desktop needs to be improved. > well maybe it would be useful for the find dialog to say something like, > this is what i'm doing 'find / 2>/dev/null | grep fname' click here to It is good to try and find ways to reduce the learning curve of the command line but I'm not sure this idea would really work well as part of the graphical user interface. I do think it would be great to have a page in the documentation of the Find tool explaining or introducing the command line alternatives. > learn more about how to use the power of the unix shell to enhance your > computing expertise. > > thanks you for your thoughts. Sincerely Alan Horkan Inkscape http://inkscape.org Abiword http://www.abisource.com Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/ From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Mon Jun 19 02:45:53 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C6963B0D43 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 02:45:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28820-04 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 02:45:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.203]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3E4573B0DC0 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 02:45:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 55516 invoked by uid 60001); 19 Jun 2006 06:45:00 -0000 Message-ID: <20060619064500.55514.qmail@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.215.111.236] by web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 07:45:00 BST Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 07:45:00 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Alan Horkan In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.667 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.715, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.667 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 06:45:53 -0000 --- Alan Horkan wrote: > It is good to try and find ways to reduce the > learning curve of the > command line but I'm not sure this idea would really > work well as part of > the graphical user interface. I do think it would > be great to have a page > in the documentation of the Find tool explaining or > introducing the > command line alternatives. I think the find tool docs briefly mention which unix commands are used behind the GUI. However, is the find tool made redundant by the new Nautilus searching? And if not, how are the two meant to work together? ___________________________________________________________ Try the all-new Yahoo! Mail. "The New Version is radically easier to use" – The Wall Street Journal http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Mon Jun 19 18:53:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC2903B02BD for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 18:53:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05746-09 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 18:53:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 653113B0105 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 18:53:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 19 Jun 2006 23:51:42 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 23:51:41 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20060619064500.55514.qmail@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: References: <20060619064500.55514.qmail@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:53:07 -0000 On Mon, 19 Jun 2006, Joachim Noreiko wrote: > > be great to have a page > > in the documentation of the Find tool explaining or > > introducing the > > command line alternatives. > > I think the find tool docs briefly mention which unix > commands are used behind the GUI. good to know > However, is the find tool made redundant by the new > Nautilus searching? And if not, how are the two meant > to work together? I doubt it. I'd expect the find tool to include more advanced options and for the built in tool to keep it simple. There might also be issues with the underlying technologies (Beagle?). I don't know for sure. -- Alan H. From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Tue Jun 20 03:34:38 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81B703B027D for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 03:34:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32616-04 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 03:34:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.202]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AA7EC3B0279 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 03:34:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 32953 invoked by uid 60001); 20 Jun 2006 07:33:12 -0000 Message-ID: <20060620073312.32951.qmail@web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.203.12.149] by web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:33:12 BST Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:33:12 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Alan Horkan In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.471 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.519, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.471 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: [Usability] Two types of find (Was: search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins") X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 07:34:38 -0000 --- Alan Horkan wrote: > > > However, is the find tool made redundant by the > new > > Nautilus searching? And if not, how are the two > meant > > to work together? > > I doubt it. I'd expect the find tool to include > more advanced options and > for the built in tool to keep it simple. There > might also be issues > with the underlying technologies (Beagle?). I don't > know for sure. Sure, I can see that operationally there are reasons to have both tool. But with our user hats on for a second -- why are there two find tools, accessed in different ways, with different-looking interfaces? It's confusing, and doesn't give off the joined-up feel that GNOME should have. So -- how can we join them up? ___________________________________________________________ The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html From mystilleef@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:03:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1667E3B058E for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:03:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10655-07 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:03:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.173]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D3AD3B0584 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:03:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id o2so3184611uge for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:03:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.67.103.7 with SMTP id f7mr3463065ugm; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:03:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.15 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:03:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:03:43 -0400 From: Mystilleef To: Usability@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.647 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.605, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.558, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.647 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:03:48 -0000 Hello, My application is a GUI designed especially for GNOME. Thus, when my application is launched, I register it with the GNOME libraries and then instruct the kernel to create a separate process for the application. The procedure is called forking. The effect of this is that when my application is launched from a shell terminal, the kernel detaches it from the shell terminal's process, therefore making the application run in its own process. Apparently, this has offended some geeks who argue I am breaking some pointless UNIX convention. Their argument is that most (GNOME) applications do not detach from the shell terminal when run from it. And by detaching from the terminal, not only am I creating inconsistencies, but also creating an element of surprise. My response is that this behavior is a hold back from the days when UNIX had no GUI and when almost all applications that ran on it were console applications. The only environment a console application can run in is in a shell environment. That is why console applications have every right to "hug" the shell terminal. Also blocking the shell terminal is the only way console applications can recieve input from users. Graphic user applications, especially the ones designed for "desktop environments" have virtually no reason to be bound to a shell terminal's process. In particular, the only environment a GNOME application should be bound to is the GNOME desktop environment. And I believe you do that by registering with the GNOME and/or freedesktop libraries. In fact, I argue it is bad practice for GUI applications to be bound to a shell terminals process because if the terminal's process dies for any reason the application(s) bound to that terminal dies along with it. In my early linux years, I have lost documents this way. I launched several via the shell terminal, and then I forgetfully or accidentally close the shell terminal's window. Miraculously, all my applications disappear. Also, most graphic user applications are not console applications and as such the life-cycle of such applications should not be determined or controlled or constrained by shell terminal's process running in the sight of users that can easily be killed accidentally or otherwise. The geeks' counter responses ranged from questioning my competence as a shell terminal user, to suggestions to reconfigure my shell properties, to changing my shell environment, to connecting my application to the kernel's KILL signal so it can save its state before dying, among several funny comments. In fact, there's only one reason to provide an option for not detaching. Some console applications may need to pipe their result to my application. And my application needs to be connected to the shell's process for that to be happen successfully. There are many other silly UNIX conventions that are a hold back from yesteryears which bite us in the behind today. I recommend the "UNIX Haters Handbook" for an exhaustive listing. Yet many people religiously clinge to them without reason. I feel this issue is one them. Is it advisable to encourage developers via the HIG to avoid hugging the terminal. I mean, apart from the fact that it is just pointless especially for GUI apps, there's also the possibility of losing applications bound to the terminal's process when the terminal quits for whatever reasons. And why on earth would anyone want to bind a GUI app to the process of another user visible application? I bring this up here because the geeks say I am trying to "fix" the problem the wrong way. They insist that the problem, if at all it is one should be "fixed" at a global level outside my application. I'm guessing perhaps at a library level. So, I welcome your comments and thought on the issue. My opinion is that the default behavior for GUI applications, GNOME in particular, is to detach from the shell terminal, while an option to prevent detachment should be provided for those who need it. A positive side effect of my suggestion is that it frees the terminal to be used by other applications designed for terminal usage. Cheers From mike@mike-burns.com Tue Jun 20 16:18:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C7FF3B0073 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:18:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11690-09 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:18:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mike-burns.com (mike-burns.com [64.105.111.66]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D9DC3B03DC for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:18:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mike by mike-burns.com with local (Exim 4.61 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1FsmgE-000I4J-6W; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:18:34 -0400 Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:18:34 -0400 From: Mike Burns To: Mystilleef Message-ID: <20060620201834.GA68180@gaping.mike-burns.com> Mail-Followup-To: Mystilleef , Usability@gnome.org References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:18:47 -0000 On 2006-06-20 16.03.43 -0400, Mystilleef wrote: > Graphic user applications, especially the ones designed for "desktop > environments" have virtually no reason to be bound to a shell terminal's > process. How many users who run the program in question run it from the terminal instead of the applications menu, panel, Alt+F2, or a hotkey? How many who run it from the terminal aren't shell experts who know about stuff like '&'? -- Mike Burns mike@mike-burns.com http://mike-burns.com From mystilleef@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:32:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E672F3B00B7 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:32:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12123-10 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:32:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.203]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59AB63B0155 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:32:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id t12so532169wxc for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.126.15 with SMTP id y15mr11029362wxc; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:32:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.15 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:32:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9605403b0606201332r169394a3mdad3a6a12da9115f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:32:14 -0400 From: Mystilleef To: Mystilleef , Usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20060620201834.GA68180@gaping.mike-burns.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <20060620201834.GA68180@gaping.mike-burns.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.256 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.344, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.256 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:32:18 -0000 I can't really say how many users run it from the terminal or from the menu. But it seems a few do run it from the terminal. Of course, on UNIX -like systems it is not uncommon to run applications from the terminal. And depending on your shell environment "&" does not detach applications from the shell's process. Apparently, for BASH, there is "disown" command for that. But I don't believe proficiency in BASH or shell wizardry should be a requirement for using applications designed for GNOME. On 6/20/06, Mike Burns wrote: > On 2006-06-20 16.03.43 -0400, Mystilleef wrote: > > Graphic user applications, especially the ones designed for "desktop > > environments" have virtually no reason to be bound to a shell terminal's > > process. > > How many users who run the program in question run it from the terminal > instead of the applications menu, panel, Alt+F2, or a hotkey? How many who > run it from the terminal aren't shell experts who know about stuff like '&'? > > -- > Mike Burns mike@mike-burns.com http://mike-burns.com > From alleykat@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:34:14 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A4B23B00B7 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:34:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12708-01 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:34:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.206]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A35193B009C for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:34:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 9so2684307nzo for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.12.45 with SMTP id p45mr9469143nzi; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.252.20 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:34:11 -0500 From: "Travis Watkins" To: Mystilleef In-Reply-To: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.379 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.221, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.379 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:34:14 -0000 On 6/20/06, Mystilleef wrote: > Graphic user applications, especially the ones designed for "desktop > environments" have virtually no reason to be bound to a shell terminal's > process. How are we supposed to get the debug output from those GNOME libraries you use? -- Travis Watkins http://www.realistanew.com From mystilleef@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:41:17 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BA943B0280 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:41:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13017-03 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:41:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.201]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEA573B01AF for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:41:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id h29so1020572wxd for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.52.10 with SMTP id z10mr11092861wxz; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:41:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.15 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:41:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9605403b0606201341w12b56135o2b6da3fd50709fa9@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:41:10 -0400 From: Mystilleef To: Usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <9605403b0606201339k12f232dfl57e73b92b2ee2cf5@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <9605403b0606201339k12f232dfl57e73b92b2ee2cf5@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.331 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.269, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.331 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Usability] Fwd: GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:41:17 -0000 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Mystilleef Date: Jun 20, 2006 4:39 PM Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment To: Travis Watkins On 6/20/06, Travis Watkins wrote: > On 6/20/06, Mystilleef wrote: > > Graphic user applications, especially the ones designed for "desktop > > environments" have virtually no reason to be bound to a shell terminal's > > process. > > How are we supposed to get the debug output from those GNOME libraries you use? > > -- > Travis Watkins > http://www.realistanew.com > You can print to stderr, which will display the debug output in the terminal the application was launched in, or you can print to a log file. Or maybe I didn't understand the question well enough? From mystilleef@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:45:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 130903B041C for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:45:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13208-05 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:45:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.198]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFC9C3B041A for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:45:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id t12so100wxc for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.24.3 with SMTP id 3mr11074250wxx; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.15 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9605403b0606201344s4adf74d5l893e43b608b993ba@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:44:52 -0400 From: Mystilleef To: "Travis Watkins" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <9605403b0606201339k12f232dfl57e73b92b2ee2cf5@mail.gmail.com> <9605403b0606201341w12b56135o2b6da3fd50709fa9@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.384 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.216, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.384 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Fwd: GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:45:20 -0000 On 6/20/06, Travis Watkins wrote: > On 6/20/06, Mystilleef wrote: > > You can print to stderr, which will display the debug output in the > > terminal the application was launched in, or you can print to a log > > file. Or maybe I didn't understand the question well enough? > > If you've separated from the terminal does outputting to stderr still > send output to said terminal? > > -- > Travis Watkins > http://www.realistanew.com > Yes, it does. From alleykat@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 16:50:05 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 374563B053D for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:50:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13567-03 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.195]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59FD03B04FC for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 16so1448nzp for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:50:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.91.2 with SMTP id o2mr3791224nzb; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:43:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.252.20 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:43:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:43:55 -0500 From: "Travis Watkins" To: Mystilleef In-Reply-To: <9605403b0606201341w12b56135o2b6da3fd50709fa9@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <9605403b0606201339k12f232dfl57e73b92b2ee2cf5@mail.gmail.com> <9605403b0606201341w12b56135o2b6da3fd50709fa9@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.384 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.216, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.384 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Fwd: GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:50:05 -0000 On 6/20/06, Mystilleef wrote: > You can print to stderr, which will display the debug output in the > terminal the application was launched in, or you can print to a log > file. Or maybe I didn't understand the question well enough? If you've separated from the terminal does outputting to stderr still send output to said terminal? -- Travis Watkins http://www.realistanew.com From ross@burtonini.com Wed Jun 21 04:29:05 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A27E93B0821 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:29:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21500-06 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:28:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65EB43B002A for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:28:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from burtonini.com (althur.gotadsl.co.uk [84.12.135.175]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBDB028C6D7; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:28:40 +0100 (BST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (ident=unknown) by burtonini.com with esmtp (masqmail 0.2.21) id 1Fsy4m-51o-00; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:28:40 +0100 From: Ross Burton To: Mystilleef In-Reply-To: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-hHw0K+ovPQXh+ENRGLBc" Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:28:40 +0100 Message-Id: <1150878520.12957.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.457 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.457 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:29:05 -0000 --=-hHw0K+ovPQXh+ENRGLBc Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 2006-06-20 at 16:03 -0400, Mystilleef wrote: > My application is a GUI designed especially for GNOME. Thus, when my > application is launched, I register it with the GNOME libraries and then > instruct the kernel to create a separate process for the application. > The procedure is called forking. The effect of this is that when my > application is launched from a shell terminal, the kernel detaches it > from the shell terminal's process, therefore making the application run > in its own process. There are plenty of situations where this behaviour is exactly not what I want, and not forking doesn't hurt anyone. The panel, run dialog and so on spawn processes so they are not bound to anything (you can demonstrate this by running a program from the panel and then killing the panel). Primary use case for not forking is that it makes it trivial to write a script that launches a program, user does something in it, and then the script can continue when the program has exited. If Gedit forked when it started I wouldn't be able to use it as $EDITOR in cvs commit for example. Why break this use case because you think that forking is useful, when to the average user there is no difference and to the terminal-using folks not forking is very useful at times. Yes, if you start a number of not-forking processes from a terminal and then close the terminal without disowning them they will also die. Luckily the users who will start a program from a terminal are advanced enough to know that happens[1]. Ross [1] In other news this week was the first time I got a bug report from a Sound Juicer user who when I asked "run SJ in a terminal and paste the output" asked "what's a terminal?". Yay non-geek users! --=20 Ross Burton mail: ross@burtonini.com jabber: ross@burtonini.com www: http://www.burtonini.com./ PGP Fingerprint: 1A21 F5B0 D8D0 CFE3 81D4 E25A 2D09 E447 D0B4 33DF --=-hHw0K+ovPQXh+ENRGLBc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEmQM3LQnkR9C0M98RAjA/AJ48sqixMzGp90lHwkoSZEEzzHYr0wCfaOyk 8c218P3Pjd0fJjEh3Od2p0s= =F/45 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-hHw0K+ovPQXh+ENRGLBc-- From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Wed Jun 21 04:49:23 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67FE13B07CA for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:49:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22910-06 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:49:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.203]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4F3AD3B04EA for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:49:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 38857 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Jun 2006 08:49:21 -0000 Message-ID: <20060621084921.38855.qmail@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.141.171.15] by web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:49:21 BST Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:49:21 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Ross Burton , Mystilleef In-Reply-To: <1150878520.12957.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.538 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.586, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.538 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:49:23 -0000 --- Ross Burton wrote: > Primary use case for not forking is that it makes it > trivial to write a > script that launches a program, user does something > in it, and then the > script can continue when the program has exited. If > Gedit forked when > it started I wouldn't be able to use it as $EDITOR > in cvs commit for > example. That's interesting! Would you care to add a brief note on how to do that to the wiki, perhaps on http://live.gnome.org/Sysadmin/CVS/FAQ ? > > [1] In other news this week was the first time I got > a bug report from a > Sound Juicer user who when I asked "run SJ in a > terminal and paste the > output" asked "what's a terminal?". Yay non-geek > users! Yay indeed! (Original poster wrote:) > There are many other silly UNIX conventions that are a hold back from yesteryears which bite us in the behind today. Absolutely. I keep finding some of these, filing bugs in my ignorance, and then getting told it's meant to be the way it is. We need to look at these legacy issues, because there are simply a pain to non-geek users, and non-geek contributors too. ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From nudrema@gmail.com Wed Jun 21 04:49:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 233453B04EF for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:49:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22840-07 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:49:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp40.mobistarmail.be (smtp40.mobistarmail.be [193.252.23.61]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 123723B0AF9 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:49:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.103] (unknown [212.224.134.45]) by mwinf4016.mobistarmail.be (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id AA8337000085 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 10:49:25 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060621084925698.AA8337000085@mwinf4016.mobistarmail.be Message-ID: <44990812.3040603@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 10:49:22 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Steve_Fr=E9cinaux?= User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <1150878520.12957.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <1150878520.12957.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.973 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.443, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_NEUTRAL=1.069] X-Spam-Score: -1.973 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:49:41 -0000 Ross Burton wrote: > Primary use case for not forking is that it makes it trivial to write a > script that launches a program, user does something in it, and then the > script can continue when the program has exited. If Gedit forked when > it started I wouldn't be able to use it as $EDITOR in cvs commit for > example. Well, in fact you can't now, because of a bug due to the single instance stuff (ie it's not blocking when you already have an instance of gedit). This might be solved by adding a --wait option or such for these case, but it's not done yet. From sberry@cyberspace.org Mon Jun 19 22:04:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C66503B01F6 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:04:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16941-07 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:04:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from grex.cyberspace.org (grex.cyberspace.org [216.86.77.194]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC98B3B0D79 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:04:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sberry by grex.cyberspace.org with local (Exim 4.54) id 1FsVan-0006sA-5J for usability@gnome.org; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:03:49 -0400 Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:03:49 -0400 From: David To: usability@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2i Sender: David X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.537 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.062, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.537 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 11:02:14 -0400 Subject: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 02:04:48 -0000 Dear All, I am not sure if you have seen this article (apparently it appeared on SlashDot). http://chabada.sk/better-desktop/ The reason I am mentioning it on the usability list is that he has many ideas for the utilisation of pop-up dialogues that appear not to be too intrusive. The idea of mail new message preview is a large usability gap, due to the time it takes users to switch back and forth between the app they are using and Evolution to determine if a message is improtant or not and the interruption to workflow this entails. Progress notifications, information about multimedia codecs and automatic music pause would all lead to a more intuitive systemi. The comments about displaying more relevant data in Nautilus are also worth taking on board. All in all, these are some of the best practical suggestions I have seen for a long time. I hope they provide deveopers and usability experts with food for thought. Thanks, Sarah From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Wed Jun 21 12:17:06 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB7C43B0FCB for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:17:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20270-09 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:17:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.206]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1A1503B0FE5 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:17:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 64620 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Jun 2006 16:17:02 -0000 Message-ID: <20060621161702.64618.qmail@web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.215.5.26] by web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:17:02 BST Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:17:02 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: David , usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.669 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.717, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.669 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:17:06 -0000 --- David wrote: > Dear All, > > I am not sure if you have seen this article > (apparently it appeared on SlashDot). > http://chabada.sk/better-desktop/ > > The reason I am mentioning it on the usability list > is that he has many ideas for the utilisation of > pop-up dialogues that appear not to be too > intrusive. The idea of mail new message preview is > a large usability gap, due to the time it takes > users to switch back and forth between the app they > are using and Evolution to determine if a message is > improtant or not and the interruption to workflow > this entails. Have you seen Growl for OS X? There is also a page on our wiki about redesigning the notification area. > > The comments about displaying more relevant data in > Nautilus are also worth taking on board. I do not underestand why Nautilus ties up two totally different concepts in its zoom function: icon size and amount of information displayed. If anything, the reverse would make more sense: icons smaller when there is more text in the label. I filed a bug about this but I don't think I explained it properly, as it has been ignored/ ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Wed Jun 21 12:49:44 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 617AA3B00AE for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:49:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22459-04 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:49:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C9A833B10DE for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:48:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 21 Jun 2006 17:47:39 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:47:39 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan To: sberry@grex.cyberspace.org In-Reply-To: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> Message-ID: References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:49:45 -0000 On Mon, 19 Jun 2006, David wrote: > Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:03:49 -0400 > From: David > To: usability@gnome.org > Subject: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions > > Dear All, > > I am not sure if you have seen this article (apparently it appeared on > SlashDot). http://chabada.sk/better-desktop/ I've seen it but I'm not sure it was discussed here on this list. I probably read about it on OSNews http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=14152 A lot of the suggestions could be dealt with directly by filing bug reports and feature requests and I think a few may have been filed already by the author. > Progress notifications, information about multimedia codecs and We really want to encourage people to use free and open formats and avoid vendor lock in problem which in the long run is a far worse problem. It might even be good idea to offer to transcode files to better formats before offering to install codecs for encumbered proprietary formats. Part of this "problem" is up to distributions and what they choose to include. Gnome doesn't include proprietary codecs and this stance is unlikely to change but some distributions do add them back in and give users what they think they want. Another part of it is education, to try and make sure users understand we cannot play formats such as MP3 out of the box due to legal hazards. Much as we might like to ignore the issue and give users what they want we cannot afford to as it will not go away and will only get worse. Fluendo and gstreamer do seem to be working at making it easier to install 3rd party codecs but we cannot achieve the ideal ease of use and without undermining other goals. > automatic music pause would all lead to a more intuitive systemi. the notion of pausing music has been discussed before, I dont recall if there was any conclusion or ideas on how best to go about implementing it. > The comments about displaying more relevant data in Nautilus are also > worth taking on board. I think the author may have posted those directly to the nautilus list. Sincerely Alan Horkan Inkscape http://inkscape.org Abiword http://www.abisource.com Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/ From thejello@gmail.com Wed Jun 21 14:37:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9858F3B014E for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:37:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29199-05 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:37:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.183]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 705803B0084 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:37:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id x66so48839pye for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 11:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.134.12 with SMTP id l12mr136441pyn; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 11:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.124.18 with HTTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 11:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4d9c6c340606211137p39290216x864bd61275aec52@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:37:08 -0400 From: "Simon Francis" To: "Alan Horkan" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_5466_4641605.1150915028419" References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.129 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.470, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.129 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org, sberry@grex.cyberspace.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 18:37:12 -0000 ------=_Part_5466_4641605.1150915028419 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Why does Gnome open non-free document formats that have related patents (Word, Excel, etc) but not multimedia files? I would consider it essential for a modern desktop to open either and a major barrier to adoption. On 6/21/06, Alan Horkan wrote: > > > On Mon, 19 Jun 2006, David wrote: > > > Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:03:49 -0400 > > From: David > > To: usability@gnome.org > > Subject: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions > > > > Dear All, > > > > I am not sure if you have seen this article (apparently it appeared on > > SlashDot). http://chabada.sk/better-desktop/ > > I've seen it but I'm not sure it was discussed here on this list. > > I probably read about it on OSNews > http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=14152 > > A lot of the suggestions could be dealt with directly by filing bug > reports and feature requests and I think a few may have been filed already > by the author. > > > Progress notifications, information about multimedia codecs and > > We really want to encourage people to use free and open formats and avoid > vendor lock in problem which in the long run is a far worse problem. It > might even be good idea to offer to transcode files to better formats > before offering to install codecs for encumbered proprietary formats. > > Part of this "problem" is up to distributions and what they choose to > include. Gnome doesn't include proprietary codecs and this stance is > unlikely to change but some distributions do add them back in and give > users what they think they want. > > Another part of it is education, to try and make sure users understand we > cannot play formats such as MP3 out of the box due to legal hazards. > Much as we might like to ignore the issue and give users what they want we > cannot afford to as it will not go away and will only get worse. > > Fluendo and gstreamer do seem to be working at making it easier to install > 3rd party codecs but we cannot achieve the ideal ease of use and without > undermining other goals. > > > automatic music pause would all lead to a more intuitive systemi. > > the notion of pausing music has been discussed before, I dont recall if > there was any conclusion or ideas on how best to go about implementing it. > > > The comments about displaying more relevant data in Nautilus are also > > worth taking on board. > > I think the author may have posted those directly to the nautilus list. > > Sincerely > > Alan Horkan > > Inkscape http://inkscape.org > Abiword http://www.abisource.com > Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org > > Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Usability mailing list > Usability@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability > ------=_Part_5466_4641605.1150915028419 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Why does Gnome open non-free document formats that have related patents (Word, Excel, etc) but not multimedia files? I would consider it essential for a modern desktop to open either and a major barrier to adoption.

On 6/21/06, Alan Horkan <horkana@maths.tcd.ie> wrote:

On Mon, 19 Jun 2006, David wrote:

> Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:03:49 -0400
> From: David <sberry@grex.cyberspace.org>
> To: usability@gnome.org
> Subject: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions
>
> Dear All,
>
> I am not sure if you have seen this article (apparently it appeared on
> SlashDot). http://chabada.sk/better-desktop/

I've seen it but I'm not sure it was discussed here on this list.

I probably read about it on OSNews
http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=14152

A lot of the suggestions could be dealt with directly by filing bug
reports and feature requests and I think a few may have been filed already
by the author.

> Progress notifications, information about multimedia codecs and

We really want to encourage people to use free and open formats and avoid
vendor lock in problem which in the long run is a far worse problem.  It
might even be good idea to offer to transcode files to better formats
before offering to install codecs for encumbered proprietary formats.

Part of this "problem" is up to distributions and what they choose to
include.  Gnome doesn't include proprietary codecs and this stance is
unlikely to change but some distributions do add them back in and give
users what they think they want.

Another part of it is education, to try and make sure users understand we
cannot play formats such as MP3 out of the box due to legal hazards.
Much as we might like to ignore the issue and give users what they want we
cannot afford to as it will not go away and will only get worse.

Fluendo and gstreamer do seem to be working at making it easier to install
3rd party codecs but we cannot achieve the ideal ease of use and without
undermining other goals.

> automatic music pause would all lead to a more intuitive systemi.

the notion of pausing music has been discussed before, I dont recall if
there was any conclusion or ideas on how best to go about implementing it.

> The comments about displaying more relevant data in Nautilus are also
> worth taking on board.

I think the author may have posted those directly to the nautilus list.

Sincerely

Alan Horkan

Inkscape http://inkscape.org
Abiword http://www.abisource.com
Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org

Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/



_______________________________________________
Usability mailing list
Usability@gnome.org
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability

------=_Part_5466_4641605.1150915028419-- From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Wed Jun 21 16:21:38 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 456063B05BB for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:21:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03268-09 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:21:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BE8643B05C0 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:21:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 21 Jun 2006 21:21:33 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 21:21:33 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <4d9c6c340606211137p39290216x864bd61275aec52@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> <4d9c6c340606211137p39290216x864bd61275aec52@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 20:21:38 -0000 On Wed, 21 Jun 2006, Simon Francis wrote: > Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:37:08 -0400 > From: Simon Francis > To: Alan Horkan > Cc: sberry@grex.cyberspace.org, usability@gnome.org > Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions > > Why does Gnome open non-free document formats that have related patents > (Word, Excel, etc) but not multimedia files? Techincally (and I apologise for the pedantry) Abiword and Gnumeric or Openoffice are the ones opening those formats not "GNOME" (although they are part or the wider Gnome community). More importantly the older office document formats have quite the same patent threats looming over them as the newer video formats do and they could be clean room reverse engineered but patents on video formats remain a threat even if the decoders are completely new code. > I would consider it essential for a modern desktop to open either and a > major barrier to adoption. The develolpers are not going to lock themselves out of their own desktop by using proprietary formats. If distributions choose to include additional codecs that is up to them. Other operating systems do not support certain formats out of the box. This is not directly a Gnome issue, and it is more a packaging and installation issue than a usability or mulitmedia issue. I am sure Gstreamer will continue to try and make it easier to install third part codecs but it is a nasty problem since the root of it is the politics of software patents. I understand your points and I do sort of agree with you (most likely I will choose a distribution which includes the codecs, or maybe install them myself but try to use unencumbered formats where possible) and I am only trying to present the problem as best I understand it. -- Alan From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Wed Jun 21 17:26:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B9A03B0153 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:26:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07094-01 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:26:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.206]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4366F3B0005 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:26:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 98624 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Jun 2006 21:26:49 -0000 Message-ID: <20060621212649.98622.qmail@web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.188.165.84] by web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 22:26:49 BST Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 22:26:49 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Alan Horkan , sberry@grex.cyberspace.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.653 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.701, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.653 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 21:26:51 -0000 --- Alan Horkan wrote: > Another part of it is education, to try and make > sure users understand we > cannot play formats such as MP3 out of the box due > to legal hazards. > Much as we might like to ignore the issue and give > users what they want we > cannot afford to as it will not go away and will > only get worse. Then let's educate the users! Try to open an MP3 file in Nautilus, and you get a 'application could not be found' message, which is unhelpful and untrue. Replace that with something that says why the MP3 can't be played. ___________________________________________________________ The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html From ross@burtonini.com Thu Jun 22 06:19:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9248D3B0389 for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 06:19:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15587-05 for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 06:19:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 651A03B042A for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 06:19:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from burtonini.com (althur.gotadsl.co.uk [84.12.135.175]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D3F029BC37; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 11:14:54 +0100 (BST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (ident=unknown) by burtonini.com with esmtp (masqmail 0.2.21) id 1Ft3Ca-331-00; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:57:04 +0100 From: Ross Burton To: Steve =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9cinaux?= In-Reply-To: <44990812.3040603@gmail.com> References: <9605403b0606201303n46e76878ha19df482c2a22528@mail.gmail.com> <1150878520.12957.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <44990812.3040603@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-GS5gCILk9mi/7eC2n045" Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:57:04 +0100 Message-Id: <1150898224.7820.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.833 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.616, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_12_24=1.247, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -1.833 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] GNOME Applications and the Shell Environment X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 10:19:18 -0000 --=-GS5gCILk9mi/7eC2n045 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 2006-06-21 at 10:49 +0200, Steve Fr=C3=A9cinaux wrote: > Ross Burton wrote: >=20 > > Primary use case for not forking is that it makes it trivial to write a > > script that launches a program, user does something in it, and then the > > script can continue when the program has exited. If Gedit forked when > > it started I wouldn't be able to use it as $EDITOR in cvs commit for > > example. >=20 > Well, in fact you can't now, because of a bug due to the single instance > stuff (ie it's not blocking when you already have an instance of gedit). >=20 > This might be solved by adding a --wait option or such for these case, > but it's not done yet. Never let reality get in the way of a good example, that's what I say. Yes, the single-instance stuff needs a --wait or something. In fact I'll add this to the single-instance SoC project wiki page. Ross --=20 Ross Burton mail: ross@burtonini.com jabber: ross@burtonini.com www: http://www.burtonini.com./ PGP Fingerprint: 1A21 F5B0 D8D0 CFE3 81D4 E25A 2D09 E447 D0B4 33DF --=-GS5gCILk9mi/7eC2n045 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEmVAwLQnkR9C0M98RAjj/AJkBwL8X5gXuowk+mivKV7xgBtxiYQCggIe4 2AiH4/XMuAfyJXaHvh10+DM= =rEto -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-GS5gCILk9mi/7eC2n045-- From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Fri Jun 23 03:30:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97FAB3B018A for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 03:30:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22794-06 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 03:30:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32406.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32406.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.199]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AD4CA3B00ED for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 03:30:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 90963 invoked by uid 60001); 23 Jun 2006 07:30:56 -0000 Message-ID: <20060623073056.90961.qmail@web32406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.214.29.119] by web32406.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 08:30:56 BST Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 08:30:56 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Michael Knepher , Gnome usability In-Reply-To: <19425c310606221428w62bc6e6ey19dd5c892a7e4176@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.56 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.608, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.56 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 07:30:57 -0000 --- Michael Knepher wrote: > On 6/21/06, Joachim Noreiko > wrote: > > > > --- Alan Horkan wrote: > > > > > Another part of it is education, to try and make > > > sure users understand we > > > cannot play formats such as MP3 out of the box > due > > > to legal hazards. > > > > Then let's educate the users! > > > > Try to open an MP3 file in Nautilus, and you get a > > 'application could not be found' message, which is > > unhelpful and untrue. > > Replace that with something that says why the MP3 > > can't be played. > > Isn't that the generic message that appears when > trying to open *any* > file type that doesn't have an application > registered to that > mime-type? Why should nautilus have a hard-coded > exception for any > file-type? Having a support page with information or > links to further > information about various filetypes and what > applications can > open/play/edit/hang out with them would seem to be a > better idea. > Today it may be mp3, but tomorrow it's likely to be > some other format, > and even today mp3 is far from the only > unsupported-out-of-the-box > file format for most distributions. Opening a support page when the user tries to open an MP3 file would be fine too. Basically, something needs to happen beyond the default message so the user doesn't simply think "This linux is rubbish -- it doesn't even know what an MP3 file is!" And yes, we could widen the idea, so anytime the user tries to open a file for which there's currently no application, she can go to find out more about what to do next. Eg, try to open an SVG file, and the helpfile you're pointed to will suggest Inkscape. ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From kbridger@shaw.ca Sat Jun 24 15:16:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B07543B00A5 for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 15:16:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31701-10 for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 15:16:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pd2mo2so.prod.shaw.ca (shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net [24.71.223.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2AF63B01B1 for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 15:16:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pd2mr7so.prod.shaw.ca (pd2mr7so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.10]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1D00MELPIRZW10@l-daemon> for usability@gnome.org; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 13:16:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml9so.prod.shaw.ca ([10.0.121.7]) by pd2mr7so.prod.shaw.ca (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1D00L5ZPIRYC00@pd2mr7so.prod.shaw.ca> for usability@gnome.org; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 13:16:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from spontaneity.thebside.ca ([70.70.211.21]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1D00HLCPIQVQG0@l-daemon> for usability@gnome.org; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 13:16:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.0.10] (westley [192.168.0.10]) by spontaneity.thebside.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0D6A1014; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 12:16:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 12:16:01 -0700 From: Kirk Bridger In-reply-to: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> To: David Message-id: <449D8F71.1060304@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.366 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.809, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST=1.708, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.366 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 19:16:56 -0000 His site seems down, but looking through Google's cache I have a comment: Renaming file extensions causes file type change: I don't like the way Windows uses file extensions to determine filetype. I think it is much more useful to have the system figure out what filetype it is. Windows ended up providing users with a means of hiding file extensions and we all know how that turned out. I love being able to send a .exe file through my exchange server's filter simply by renaming it .txt. Changing types though could be useful - I use nautilus's script to resize images for example. Being able to do that in the properties or by right-clicking is an interesting idea. I suppose the same could be done for filetypes as well, to a limited extent. I'm not sure if there is a frequently used use case there or not though. Kirk David wrote: > Dear All, > > I am not sure if you have seen this article (apparently it appeared on SlashDot). > http://chabada.sk/better-desktop/ > > The reason I am mentioning it on the usability list is that he has many ideas for the utilisation of pop-up dialogues that appear not to be too intrusive. The idea of mail new message preview is a large usability gap, due to the time it takes users to switch back and forth between the app they are using and Evolution to determine if a message is improtant or not and the interruption to workflow this entails. > > Progress notifications, information about multimedia codecs and automatic music pause would all lead to a more intuitive systemi. > > The comments about displaying more relevant data in Nautilus are also worth taking on board. > > All in all, these are some of the best practical suggestions I have seen for a long time. I hope they provide deveopers and usability experts with food for thought. > > Thanks, > > Sarah > _______________________________________________ > Usability mailing list > Usability@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability > From mpt@myrealbox.com Sun Jun 25 01:21:37 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40CD73B02A2 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 01:21:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17670-06 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 01:21:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from leucothea.redline.site5.com (leucothea.redline.site5.com [216.118.97.161]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E57D3B0079 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 01:21:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 203-173-178-53.bliink.ihug.co.nz ([203.173.178.53] helo=[10.1.1.5]) by leucothea.redline.site5.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.52) id 1FuN3O-0005nO-Se; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 01:21:03 -0400 In-Reply-To: <449D8F71.1060304@shaw.ca> References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> <449D8F71.1060304@shaw.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <6b768541cf85cb7ade2a7217c3faffd4@myrealbox.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Matthew Paul Thomas Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:21:12 +1200 To: Gnome usability X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.623) X-Antivirus-Scanner: This message has been scanned by ClamAV. X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - leucothea.redline.site5.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnome.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - myrealbox.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.499 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.499 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 05:21:37 -0000 On Jun 25, 2006, at 7:16 AM, Kirk Bridger wrote: > ... > I don't like the way Windows uses file extensions to determine > filetype. I think it is much more useful to have the system figure > out what filetype it is. Windows ended up providing users with a > means of hiding file extensions and we all know how that turned out. > I love being able to send a .exe file through my exchange server's > filter simply by renaming it .txt. > ... The converse of that is the friend of mine who renamed something.bmp to something.gif and wondered why it didn't get converted. (And that was without even being exposed to the Gimp, which has a Save dialog encouraging such confusion.) -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Sun Jun 25 05:29:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FA973B0079 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 05:29:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07670-03 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 05:29:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B8F243B013D for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 05:29:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 25 Jun 2006 10:28:36 +0100 (BST) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:28:36 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: Gnome usability In-Reply-To: <6b768541cf85cb7ade2a7217c3faffd4@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> <449D8F71.1060304@shaw.ca> <6b768541cf85cb7ade2a7217c3faffd4@myrealbox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 09:29:34 -0000 On Sun, 25 Jun 2006, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:21:12 +1200 > From: Matthew Paul Thomas > To: Gnome usability > Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions > > On Jun 25, 2006, at 7:16 AM, Kirk Bridger wrote: > > ... > > I don't like the way Windows uses file extensions to determine > > filetype. It is a fairly fast way of doing things. > > I think it is much more useful to have the system figure > > out what filetype it is. There certainly used to be an option to use full file type detection in Nautilus, which was much more necessary several years ago as some developers intentionally did not use any file extensions but most do nowadays. Even if we had a system where we did not need to use file extensions I would generally add them back in for my own use, they are especially useful for simple pattern matching on the command line. For example: ls -lgh *.png > > Windows ended up providing users with a > > means of hiding file extensions and we all know how that turned out. > > I love being able to send a .exe file through my exchange server's > > filter simply by renaming it .txt. I've seen people embed huge video files inside Word Documents just to bypass stupid filters. It is a system only useful for preventing users from accidentally shooting themselves in the foot but that wont stop those determined to wreck their computer. > The converse of that is the friend of mine who renamed something.bmp to > something.gif and wondered why it didn't get converted. A very familiar situation. It didn't help that some web authoring tools such as Microsoft Frontpage failed to discourage users from including massive uncompressed bitmaps on their web pages. It would sure be an improvement to offer to convert the file instead of issuing pointless - inevitably ignored - warnings the way Microsoft does. -- Alan From reinouts@gnome.org Sun Jun 25 10:38:30 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C5643B00CA for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:38:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17732-05 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:38:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp13.wxs.nl (smtp13.wxs.nl [195.121.247.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F2FB3B00FE for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:38:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from reinout.rotterdam-cs.com (ip5656924e.speed.planet.nl [86.86.146.78]) by smtp13.wxs.nl (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004)) with SMTP id <0J1F00KSS7B3U5@smtp13.wxs.nl> for usability@gnome.org; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 16:37:52 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 16:40:29 +0200 From: Reinout van Schouwen To: usability@gnome.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Pan/0.14.2 (This is not a psychotic episode. It's a cleansing moment of clarity.) References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> <449D8F71.1060304@shaw.ca> <6b768541cf85cb7ade2a7217c3faffd4@myrealbox.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.014, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 14:38:30 -0000 On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:21:12 +1200, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > The converse of that is the friend of mine who renamed something.bmp to > something.gif and wondered why it didn't get converted. Automagically converting the file after the user renames it to another graphics type would be a very sensible thing to do, wouldn't it? regards, -- Reinout van Schouwen From reinouts@gnome.org Sun Jun 25 10:41:44 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93DA03B00BB for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:41:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17855-06 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:41:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp16.wxs.nl (smtp16.wxs.nl [195.121.247.7]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 232073B00CA for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:41:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from reinout.rotterdam-cs.com (ip5656924e.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl [86.86.146.78]) by smtp16.wxs.nl (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004)) with SMTP id <0J1F005KV7GTCX@smtp16.wxs.nl> for usability@gnome.org; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 16:41:18 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 16:43:55 +0200 From: Reinout van Schouwen To: usability@gnome.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Pan/0.14.2 (This is not a psychotic episode. It's a cleansing moment of clarity.) References: <20060621212649.98622.qmail@web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.014, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 14:41:44 -0000 On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 22:26:49 +0100, Joachim Noreiko wrote: > Try to open an MP3 file in Nautilus, and you get a 'application could not > be found' message, which is unhelpful and untrue. > Replace that with something that says why the MP3 can't be played. You are assuming that people read such messages. In reality, unfortunately, they don't. regards, -- Reinout van Schouwen From mpt@myrealbox.com Sun Jun 25 18:51:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BF323B0201 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 18:51:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06774-08 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 18:51:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from leucothea.redline.site5.com (leucothea.redline.site5.com [216.118.97.161]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 390DA3B019D for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 18:51:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 203-173-178-53.bliink.ihug.co.nz ([203.173.178.53] helo=[10.1.1.5]) by leucothea.redline.site5.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.52) id 1FudS6-0007xY-9V; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 18:51:38 -0400 In-Reply-To: References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> <449D8F71.1060304@shaw.ca> <6b768541cf85cb7ade2a7217c3faffd4@myrealbox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Matthew Paul Thomas Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:51:39 +1200 To: Gnome usability X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.623) X-Antivirus-Scanner: This message has been scanned by ClamAV. X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - leucothea.redline.site5.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnome.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - myrealbox.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.514 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.085, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.514 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 22:51:46 -0000 On Jun 26, 2006, at 2:40 AM, Reinout van Schouwen wrote: > > On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:21:12 +1200, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: >> >> The converse of that is the friend of mine who renamed something.bmp >> to something.gif and wondered why it didn't get converted. > > Automagically converting the file after the user renames it to another > graphics type would be a very sensible thing to do, wouldn't it? > ... I don't think so, because then you would still have the "renaming a file in a particular way causes a confirmation alert" problem, except this time the alert would be asking about a (usually) lossy file conversion instead of merely a rename. -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Mon Jun 26 03:49:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67B333B0124 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 03:49:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31093-05 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 03:49:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.204]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A389A3B00B6 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 03:49:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 67033 invoked by uid 60001); 26 Jun 2006 07:49:48 -0000 Message-ID: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.188.218.167] by web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:49:48 BST Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:49:48 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Reinout van Schouwen , usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.654 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.702, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.654 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 07:49:52 -0000 --- Reinout van Schouwen wrote: > On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 22:26:49 +0100, Joachim Noreiko > wrote: > > > Try to open an MP3 file in Nautilus, and you get a > 'application could not > > be found' message, which is unhelpful and untrue. > > Replace that with something that says why the MP3 > can't be played. > > You are assuming that people read such messages. In > reality, > unfortunately, they don't. Yes, they often don't. But have to assume they do and plan our UI around that assumption. Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and probably no user documentation either. ___________________________________________________________ Now you can scan emails quickly with a reading pane. Get the new Yahoo! Mail. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html From burner@suppressingfire.org Mon Jun 26 10:22:09 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B811B3B043B for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:22:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24164-06 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:22:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ms-smtp-01.nyroc.rr.com (ms-smtp-01.nyroc.rr.com [24.24.2.55]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66D493B0124 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:22:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from suppressingfire (cpe-24-24-95-18.stny.res.rr.com [24.24.95.18]) by ms-smtp-01.nyroc.rr.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k5QELvpk004094 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:22:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [66.24.9.211] (helo=phoenix.local) by suppressingfire with asmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1Fury6-0003dz-00; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:21:38 -0400 From: "Michael R. Head" To: usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-jyWJEDPHSqqZY9+dmCjI" Organization: suppressingfire.org Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:21:33 -0400 Message-Id: <1151331695.7135.143.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Scanner: exiscan *1Fury6-0003dz-00*MS6m9wiATYI* X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.653 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_NJABL_DUL=1.946] X-Spam-Score: -0.653 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:22:09 -0000 --=-jyWJEDPHSqqZY9+dmCjI Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:49 +0100, Joachim Noreiko wrote: >=20 > Yes, they often don't. > But have to assume they do and plan our UI around that > assumption. > Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and probably > no user documentation either. It's not that we shouldn't have those, it's that the user shouldn't _need_ them. --=20 Michael R. Head suppressingfire.org --=-jyWJEDPHSqqZY9+dmCjI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEn+1tNXGzGEydodARAqBvAKCCBm4gdnuwL1qXO4DzJtBTQB0tNACeMCMV 98CqtU5zsymY1oSZ3hjToYY= =1qKT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-jyWJEDPHSqqZY9+dmCjI-- From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Mon Jun 26 12:36:43 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2CFA3B009A for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:36:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00507-06 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:36:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.202]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DDC053B03BA for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:36:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 49772 invoked by uid 60001); 26 Jun 2006 16:36:42 -0000 Message-ID: <20060626163642.49770.qmail@web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.214.125.57] by web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:36:42 BST Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:36:42 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: "Michael R. Head" , usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <1151331695.7135.143.camel@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.565 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.613, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.565 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:36:44 -0000 --- "Michael R. Head" wrote: > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:49 +0100, Joachim Noreiko > wrote: > > > > Yes, they often don't. > > But have to assume they do and plan our UI around > that > > assumption. > > Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and > probably > > no user documentation either. > > It's not that we shouldn't have those, it's that the > user shouldn't > _need_ them. I agree with that in general. But when the user tries to open a file for which there's no application, there has to be some sort of response from the system. ___________________________________________________________ All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html From glatzor@ubuntu.com Mon Jun 26 14:31:16 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 333A13B0265 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:31:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07114-05 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:31:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail-out.m-online.net (mail-out.m-online.net [212.18.0.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8BEB3B017D for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:31:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail01.m-online.net (svr21.m-online.net [192.168.3.149]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2BCA73290 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:31:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pimpzkru.dyndns.org (ppp-82-135-65-46.dynamic.mnet-online.de [82.135.65.46]) by mail.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 949F092781 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:31:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pimpzkru.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DA2AD2E05 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:47:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pimpzkru.dyndns.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (server.daheim [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20467-07 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:47:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from sebi-mac.daheim (sebi-mac.daheim [10.169.18.2]) by pimpzkru.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3721ED2E02 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:47:05 +0200 (CEST) From: Sebastian Heinlein To: usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20060626163642.49770.qmail@web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060626163642.49770.qmail@web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:30:33 +0200 Message-Id: <1151346634.4959.6.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at pimpzkru X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.464 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.464 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:31:16 -0000 Am Montag, den 26.06.2006, 17:36 +0100 schrieb Joachim Noreiko: > --- "Michael R. Head" > wrote: > > > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:49 +0100, Joachim Noreiko > > wrote: > > > > > > Yes, they often don't. > > > But have to assume they do and plan our UI around > > that > > > assumption. > > > Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and > > probably > > > no user documentation either. > > > > It's not that we shouldn't have those, it's that the > > user shouldn't > > _need_ them. > > I agree with that in general. > But when the user tries to open a file for which > there's no application, there has to be some sort of > response from the system May I point you to the following spec that has been discussed on the Ubuntu Depeveloper Summit in Paris recently: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SuggestedPackagesForFiletypesSpec Regards, Sebastian From mpt@myrealbox.com Mon Jun 26 23:42:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82C2B3B0286 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:42:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01194-10 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:42:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from leucothea.redline.site5.com (leucothea.redline.site5.com [216.118.97.161]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 832863B00CF for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:42:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 203-173-178-53.bliink.ihug.co.nz ([203.173.178.53] helo=[10.1.1.5]) by leucothea.redline.site5.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.52) id 1Fv4TO-00043b-Bp; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:42:46 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Matthew Paul Thomas Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:42:56 +1200 To: Gnome usability X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.623) X-Antivirus-Scanner: This message has been scanned by ClamAV. X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - leucothea.redline.site5.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnome.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - myrealbox.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.524 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.075, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.524 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 03:42:51 -0000 On Jun 26, 2006, at 7:49 PM, Joachim Noreiko wrote: > ... > --- Reinout van Schouwen wrote: > ... >> You are assuming that people read such messages. In reality, >> unfortunately, they don't. > > Yes, they often don't. But have to assume they do and plan our UI > around that assumption. Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and > probably no user documentation either. > ... That's a long-term goal to work towards: alerts replaced by bug fixes and better design, and "user documentation" replaced by helpful help and better design. But that's not the issue here. The issue is, given that there is an error alert, which alert text is better: "Nautilus could not open the file because the filetype is unknown", or "&operatingsystem; cannot play MP3 files, because some countries allow software patents and Free Software cannot pay patent licenses". -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ From kbridger@shaw.ca Tue Jun 27 00:40:32 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 179EB3B0125 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:40:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03708-04 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:40:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pd2mo2so.prod.shaw.ca (shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net [24.71.223.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCA8E3B0143 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:40:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pd5mr1so.prod.shaw.ca (pd5mr1so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.232]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1I0071O4YNP570@l-daemon> for usability@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:39:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml1so.prod.shaw.ca ([10.0.121.145]) by pd5mr1so.prod.shaw.ca (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-2.05 (built Apr 28 2005)) with ESMTP id <0J1I001J94YN5Q50@pd5mr1so.prod.shaw.ca> for usability@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:39:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from spontaneity.thebside.ca ([70.70.211.21]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1I00ART4YN7T31@l-daemon> for usability@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:39:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.0.10] (westley [192.168.0.10]) by spontaneity.thebside.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C58A043724; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:39:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:39:58 -0700 From: Kirk Bridger In-reply-to: To: Matthew Paul Thomas Message-id: <44A0B69E.4050605@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <20060620020349.GA10094@grex.cyberspace.org> <449D8F71.1060304@shaw.ca> <6b768541cf85cb7ade2a7217c3faffd4@myrealbox.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.372 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.817, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST=1.708, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.372 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Gnome usability Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 04:40:32 -0000 I think it would be an interesting idea if it was lossless.  As soon as data can be lost in the translation I think it would be a mistake.

But as Matthew pointed out, it is a rename function.  Might it make more sense to have a right-click option to convert a file to another filetype, a la Nautilus scripts?  Certainly more complex but also more robust I think.

Why would a file's name determine it's format?  It seems artificial and fragile to me.  Alan's point about organizing via extension is a fallback to the shell, but is certainly true.  For the shell.  I think there are better ways to do it on the desktop - perhaps with Beagle and tagging images with their type or something like that?

However as long it is lossless there would be no danger and it most likely would be useful to some.  It actually might be kind of cool.


Kirk



Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: 
On Jun 26, 2006, at 2:40 AM, Reinout van Schouwen wrote:
  
On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:21:12 +1200, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
    
The converse of that is the friend of mine who renamed something.bmp 
to something.gif and wondered why it didn't get converted.
      
Automagically converting the file after the user renames it to another
graphics type would be a very sensible thing to do, wouldn't it?
...
    

I don't think so, because then you would still have the "renaming a 
file in a particular way causes a confirmation alert" problem, except 
this time the alert would be asking about a (usually) lossy file 
conversion instead of merely a rename.
From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Tue Jun 27 10:37:21 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34D453B0497 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 10:37:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03799-06 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 10:37:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3DC803B0234 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 10:37:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bell.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.9] helo=bell.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 27 Jun 2006 15:36:40 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:36:40 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: Gnome usability In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:37:21 -0000 On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: [...] > > Yes, they often don't. But have to assume they do and plan our UI > > around that assumption. Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and > > probably no user documentation either. > > ... > > That's a long-term goal to work towards: alerts replaced by bug fixes > and better design, and "user documentation" replaced by helpful help > and better design. > But that's not the issue here. The issue is, given that there is an > error alert, which alert text is better: I agree with your sentiment but ... > "Nautilus could not open the > file because the filetype is unknown", or > "&operatingsystem; cannot play MP3 files, because some countries allow > software patents and Free Software cannot pay patent licenses". ... there are so many things wrong with that second sentence I will not criticize it other than to say I hope you will retract it, or rephrase it. -- Alan H. From thejello@gmail.com Tue Jun 27 11:30:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2D3B3B00A0 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:30:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05701-08 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:30:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.181]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8869E3B00B4 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:30:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id b29so1887828pya for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:29:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.121.9 with SMTP id y9mr7319104pym; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:29:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.124.18 with HTTP; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:29:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4d9c6c340606270829v76184a30t1873601ca705e921@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:29:55 -0400 From: "Simon Francis" To: "Matthew Paul Thomas" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_11777_20547401.1151422195993" References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.928 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.097, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, HTML_30_40=0.374, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.928 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Gnome usability Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:30:27 -0000 ------=_Part_11777_20547401.1151422195993 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline But OpenOffice and AbiWord open my Word documents fine which have patents. It is as essential to a home user to have working multimedia playback as a business user having the ability to open documents. On 6/26/06, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > > On Jun 26, 2006, at 7:49 PM, Joachim Noreiko wrote: > > ... > > --- Reinout van Schouwen wrote: > > ... > >> You are assuming that people read such messages. In reality, > >> unfortunately, they don't. > > > > Yes, they often don't. But have to assume they do and plan our UI > > around that assumption. Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and > > probably no user documentation either. > > ... > > That's a long-term goal to work towards: alerts replaced by bug fixes > and better design, and "user documentation" replaced by helpful help > and better design. > > But that's not the issue here. The issue is, given that there is an > error alert, which alert text is better: "Nautilus could not open the > file because the filetype is unknown", or "&operatingsystem; cannot > play MP3 files, because some countries allow software patents and Free > Software cannot pay patent licenses". > > -- > Matthew Paul Thomas > http://mpt.net.nz/ > > _______________________________________________ > Usability mailing list > Usability@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability > ------=_Part_11777_20547401.1151422195993 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline But OpenOffice and AbiWord open my Word documents fine which have patents. It is as essential to a home user to have working multimedia playback as a business user having the ability to open documents.

On 6/26/06, Matthew Paul Thomas <mpt@myrealbox.com> wrote:
On Jun 26, 2006, at 7:49 PM, Joachim Noreiko wrote:
> ...
> --- Reinout van Schouwen <reinouts@gnome.org> wrote:
> ...
>> You are assuming that people read such messages. In reality,
>> unfortunately, they don't.
>
> Yes, they often don't. But have to assume they do and plan our UI
> around that assumption. Otherwise we'd have no messages at all, and
> probably no user documentation either.
> ...

That's a long-term goal to work towards: alerts replaced by bug fixes
and better design, and "user documentation" replaced by helpful help
and better design.

But that's not the issue here. The issue is, given that there is an
error alert, which alert text is better: "Nautilus could not open the
file because the filetype is unknown", or "&operatingsystem; cannot
play MP3 files, because some countries allow software patents and Free
Software cannot pay patent licenses".

--
Matthew Paul Thomas
http://mpt.net.nz/

_______________________________________________
Usability mailing list
Usability@gnome.org
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability

------=_Part_11777_20547401.1151422195993-- From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Tue Jun 27 11:47:32 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC2E73B0110 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:47:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06333-09 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:47:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C26043B0172 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:47:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bell.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.9] helo=bell.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 27 Jun 2006 16:46:39 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:46:38 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: Gnome usability In-Reply-To: <4d9c6c340606270829v76184a30t1873601ca705e921@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4d9c6c340606270829v76184a30t1873601ca705e921@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:47:32 -0000 On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Simon Francis wrote: > Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:29:55 -0400 > From: Simon Francis > To: Matthew Paul Thomas > Cc: Gnome usability > Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions > > But OpenOffice and AbiWord open my Word documents fine which have patents. Do they? The newer XML formats might have some dodgy patents but I don't think the older Microsoft Word .doc had any patents and Rich Text Format was intended for sharing documents with other word processors (RTF is what Abiword actually uses). -- Alan From liam@holoweb.net Tue Jun 27 18:01:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FEF03B009D for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 18:01:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18927-05 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 18:01:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hd-t1637cl.privatedns.com (ip-209-172-34-239.reverse.privatedns.com [209.172.34.239]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6DEEF3B00B3 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 18:01:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 22820 invoked from network); 27 Jun 2006 22:01:16 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?127.0.0.1?) (127.0.0.1) by hd-t1637cl.privatedns.com with SMTP; 27 Jun 2006 22:01:16 -0000 From: Liam R E Quin To: Matthew Paul Thomas In-Reply-To: References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=-/ZZWHMx5iFlopzfnwJPX" Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:56:21 -0400 Message-Id: <1151445381.25012.65.camel@dell.barefootcomputing.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.2-1mdv2007.0 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.498 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.034, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_50_60=0.134, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.498 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Gnome usability Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 22:01:47 -0000 --=-/ZZWHMx5iFlopzfnwJPX Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 15:42 +1200, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: [...] > But that's not the issue here. The issue is, given that there is an > error alert, which alert text is better: "Nautilus could not open the > file because the filetype is unknown", or "&operatingsystem; cannot > play MP3 files, because some countries allow software patents and Free > Software cannot pay patent licenses". The latter isn't true. That is, (1) the operating system is actually likely to be technically capable of supporting MP3 players, and (2) it's trying to play a piece of music (one imagines) and not in fact trying to play a patent :-) More importantly, the right message in practice might be The distributor of this operating environment did not obtain permission to ship support for MPEG sound decoding (e.g. mp3) from the holder(s) of patents on the required techniques. If you know that the legal issues do not affect you, you can install support for MP3 files [here]. Contact your local politician to register a protest against the way that ideas can belong to corporations [here]. People are more likely to read messages if, from time to time, they contain useful information. Explain the problem, and help people to understand the issues, and then help them to do something about it. best, Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org --=-/ZZWHMx5iFlopzfnwJPX Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 15:42 +1200, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
[...] 
But that's not the issue here. The issue is, given that there is an 
error alert, which alert text is better: "Nautilus could not open the 
file because the filetype is unknown", or "&operatingsystem; cannot 
play MP3 files, because some countries allow software patents and Free 
Software cannot pay patent licenses".

The latter isn't true.  That is,
(1) the operating system is actually likely to be technically capable
    of supporting MP3 players, and
(2) it's trying to play a piece of music (one imagines) and not in
    fact trying to play a patent :-)

More importantly, the right message in practice might be

    The distributor of this operating environment did not obtain
    permission to ship support for MPEG sound decoding (e.g. mp3)
    from the holder(s) of patents on the required techniques.

    If you know that the legal issues do not affect you, you can
    install support for MP3 files [here].

    Contact your local politician to register a protest against
    the way that ideas can belong to corporations [here].

People are more likely to read messages if, from time to time,
they contain useful information.  Explain the problem, and
help people to understand the issues, and then help them to
do something about it.

best,

Liam

-- 
Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org
--=-/ZZWHMx5iFlopzfnwJPX-- From mpt@myrealbox.com Wed Jun 28 03:21:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B1753B000F for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 03:21:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30217-06 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 03:21:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from leucothea.redline.site5.com (leucothea.redline.site5.com [216.118.97.161]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B86653B0010 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 03:21:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 203-173-178-53.bliink.ihug.co.nz ([203.173.178.53] helo=[10.1.1.5]) by leucothea.redline.site5.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.52) id 1FvULi-0003jt-Gr; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 03:20:36 -0400 In-Reply-To: References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Matthew Paul Thomas Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 19:20:29 +1200 To: Gnome usability X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.624) X-Antivirus-Scanner: This message has been scanned by ClamAV. X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - leucothea.redline.site5.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnome.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - myrealbox.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.532 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.067, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.532 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 07:21:45 -0000 On Jun 28, 2006, at 2:36 AM, Alan Horkan wrote: > > On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > ... >> "Nautilus could not open the file because the filetype is unknown", >> or "&operatingsystem; cannot play MP3 files, because some countries >> allow software patents and Free Software cannot pay patent licenses". > > ... there are so many things wrong with that second sentence I will > not criticize it other than to say I hope you will retract it, or > rephrase it. > ... That (like most of your postings, alas) is critical but utterly unhelpful. How specifically would you improve the sentence? (I'm assuming that Gnome is considered to be Free Software by default, and if a distributor charges money for the inclusion of MP3-playing proprietary software in their OS, they can patch the message to suit the rare case where you've uninstalled that software.) -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ From fraggle@gmail.com Wed Jun 28 05:57:15 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4766C3B0002 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 05:57:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02935-01 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 05:57:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.236]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2F5F3B0079 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 05:57:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 55so716444wri for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 02:56:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.230.8 with SMTP id h8mr1022414qbr; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 02:56:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.64.181.11 with HTTP; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 02:56:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <301d395f0606280256r707ec315s178e5efe70da7fce@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 10:56:31 +0100 From: "Simon Howard" To: "Francesco Stablum" In-Reply-To: <377fd1f30605260335r3ef7c556s3f6724c44f8236f6@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <377fd1f30605260335r3ef7c556s3f6724c44f8236f6@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.494 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.094, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.494 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Copy & paste problem X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:57:15 -0000 On 5/26/06, Francesco Stablum wrote: > The problem is that there are two clipboard buffers and it can be very > annoying and conterintuitive to new unix/gnome users. Why not making a > single buffer? Most users new to Unix are unlikely to know about the PRIMARY selection pasting method (select + middle click). The problems are that you can select text to make a PRIMARY-style "copy" operation, but doing a "paste" using edit-paste will paste the CLIPBOARD selection instead, and similarly a middle-click will paste the PRIMARY selection, which doesn't work if you did edit-copy. The problem is, the only way to combine the two systems would involve copying to the clipboard whenever text is selected. This would make things even more confusing than they already are - imagine someone who selects some text in application 1, selects "edit-copy", then goes to application 2, selects some text (to replace) and hits "edit-paste". Nothing happens, because the clipboard was overwritten the second time he selected any text. I'd say that users are unlikely to stumble across the PRIMARY select paste method anyway. It doesn't interfere with the normal copy-and-paste method, which is what most Unix newbies are going to use. -- Simon Howard http://www.soulsphere.org/ From jnoreiko@yahoo.com Wed Jun 28 08:05:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ABF63B0204 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:05:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09357-07 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:05:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.207.198]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AB34D3B01B2 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:04:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 10999 invoked by uid 60001); 28 Jun 2006 12:04:12 -0000 Message-ID: <20060628120412.10997.qmail@web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.216.7.206] by web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:04:12 BST Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:04:12 +0100 (BST) From: Joachim Noreiko To: Simon Howard , Francesco Stablum In-Reply-To: <301d395f0606280256r707ec315s178e5efe70da7fce@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.692 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.740, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=1.447] X-Spam-Score: -1.692 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Copy & paste problem X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:05:49 -0000 --- Simon Howard wrote: > On 5/26/06, Francesco Stablum > wrote: > > The problem is that there are two clipboard > buffers and it can be very > > annoying and conterintuitive to new unix/gnome > users. Why not making a > > single buffer? > > Most users new to Unix are unlikely to know about > the PRIMARY > selection pasting method (select + middle click). > The problems are > that you can select text to make a PRIMARY-style > "copy" operation, but > doing a "paste" using edit-paste will paste the > CLIPBOARD selection > instead, and similarly a middle-click will paste the > PRIMARY > selection, which doesn't work if you did edit-copy. > > The problem is, the only way to combine the two > systems would involve > copying to the clipboard whenever text is selected. > This would make > things even more confusing than they already are - > imagine someone who > selects some text in application 1, selects > "edit-copy", then goes to > application 2, selects some text (to replace) and > hits "edit-paste". > Nothing happens, because the clipboard was > overwritten the second time > he selected any text. > > I'd say that users are unlikely to stumble across > the PRIMARY select > paste method anyway. It doesn't interfere with the > normal > copy-and-paste method, which is what most Unix > newbies are going to > use. This is true -- however, the existence of the PRIMARY system does have an impact on users, because across all GTK application windows, there can be only one selection. This breaks users' expectations of what an application is, because something they do in one window can affect the state of selection in another. There's a bug open for this, but most solutions suggested so far are looking at ways to highlight the selection considered for PRIMARY in some way, and nothing proposed so far is entirely satisfactory. Could there be a way to combine the two systems? What about using middle-click-&-drag to select text to copy, and middle-click to paste, using the regular clipboard? ___________________________________________________________ Does your mail provider give you FREE antivirus protection? Get Yahoo! Mail http://uk.mail.yahoo.com From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Wed Jun 28 08:56:50 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDEEF3B00BE for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:56:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11067-05 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:56:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8BD6D3B0083 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:56:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 28 Jun 2006 13:56:13 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:56:13 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan To: Matthew Paul Thomas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Gnome usability Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:56:50 -0000 On Wed, 28 Jun 2006, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 19:20:29 +1200 > From: Matthew Paul Thomas > To: Gnome usability > Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions > > On Jun 28, 2006, at 2:36 AM, Alan Horkan wrote: > > > > On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > That (like most of your postings, alas) is critical but utterly > unhelpful. How specifically would you improve the sentence? See the post Liam Quinn made, it described the issue well. > >> "Nautilus could not open the file because the filetype is unknown", > >> or "&operatingsystem; cannot play MP3 files, because some countries > >> allow software patents and Free Software cannot pay patent licenses". Using the phrase "some countries" in the error message begs the questions which countries? These kinds of ambiguities are best avoided in error messages, it is like answering a users question with another question they are unlikely to know the answer to so it can be very annoying. Software patents may be the root cause of the problem but distributions could choose to license the software from Fleundo so it is a overly complicated way to preset the issue to the user in what should be short and simple error message. > > ... there are so many things wrong with that second sentence I will > > not criticize it other than to say I hope you will retract it, or > > rephrase it. I was hoping you could see that although your sentiment was well intentioned you propesd actions and confusing choice of text were "utterly unhelpful" (sic) but it seems you couldn't even recognise your own mistake and instead of getting all defensive about it and resorting to personal attacks. Admittedly my posts may be rushed and far from perfect but but I try only to provide some timely response of some kind rather than leave questions unanswered. I do not make any claims of expertise and I do not cry foul when others point my mistakes - it may be annoying but I try to learn from them and improve what I'm doing - since I am here to try and help make the software better in whatever way I can manage. I do not have the luxury of being employed to work on Free Software development. > (I'm assuming that Gnome is considered to be Free Software by default, That is not a safe assumption. Many Gnome developers do believe in the ideas of the Free Software Foundation but there is no certain answer that would make your assumption a safe one, Alan Cox and Richard Stallman are not clear on whether it is or not: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/2006-June/msg00098.html For the ordinary users the relevant points are the distributor has chosen not to license the software, or is prevented from (or at least believes the even the threat of legal action is not worth risking) includinging a free version due to legal reason. The freedom issue is important but secondary and only make the error message longer and more confusing. > and if a distributor charges money for the inclusion of MP3-playing > proprietary software in their OS, they can patch the message to suit > the rare case where you've uninstalled that software.) So showing a dialog might be suitable but the message must as simple and direct as possible. -- Alan H. From d2004@cosmopod.com Tue Jun 27 19:42:15 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F1C73B0010 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:42:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21597-07 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:42:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 64.cosmopod.com (unknown [216.75.2.64]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E949F3B0005 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:42:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 64.cosmopod.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by 64.cosmopod.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k5RNfGcX017982 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:41:17 -0700 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by 64.cosmopod.com (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k5RNf9TV017912 for usability@gnome.org; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:41:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: 64.cosmopod.com: d2004 set sender to d2004@cosmopod.com using -f From: d2004@cosmopod.com To: usability@gnome.org Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:41:04 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200606271641.06914.d2004@cosmopod.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.038, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_REAL_NAME=0.961] X-Spam-Score: -1.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:59:56 -0400 Subject: [Usability] Consistency Issue between EOG and gThumb X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 23:42:15 -0000 Dear All, I am a long time GNOME user (but not a developer) and occasional reader of this mailing list. This is my first post though. I have a small usability/consistency issue, which, though rather trivial, is something of a "pet hate" for me. On playing with Fedora Core 6 Test 1 last night, I saw it is still present in the GNOME development build 2.15.2, so I thought I would raise it with you. If the user opens a graphic in gThumb and maximises it to "Full Screen" view (F11) and then zooms in (+ key) they can pan around the image using the cursors. If they then want to move to the next or previous graphic in the directory, they can use the Page Up or Page Down keys. This is all fine, so far as I am concerned. Unfortunately, Eye of GNOME (EOG) has somewhat different behaviour, that makes the two tools inconsistent with each other. On opening a graphic, switching to "Full Screen" view and zooming in, the cursors can no longer be used for panning around. Instead, pressing the up, down, left or right cursors switch the user to the previous or next graphic in the directory. Panning must be done with the mouse instead of keyboard shortcuts. My preference would definitely be that EOG be modified so that the cursors are used for panning, not for moving forwards and backwards between graphics. I have a few other questions not necessarily related to usability but I thought I would raise them. I am aware of the legal/patent concerns around playing regionally-encrypted DVDs in some nations such as the US. I normally download the rpms for Xine, including the deCSS one and use that which works fine. However, having installed DeCSS on my system, I still cannot use Totem as my player. Does Totem need to be recompiled? It would be good to modify the application so that simply installing DeCSS would enable Totem to locate it as a plug-in, thus making the default player usable for those of us in countries without these legal issues by simply adding this one file. Secondly, I am quite intrigued by Project Soylent but there is little information with regard to release dates on the website. Do you have any indication when we will start seeing the fruits of this labour? Will it be in Topaz or in a future 2.x build? Thirdly, having seen the list of Chabada's suggestions that are currently being debated on this list, I can affirm that, as an end user, I would definitely find all that he has suggested to be of benefit, including extra file information displayed in Nautilus, the Evolution mail previews and the use of GNOME Baker as part of the core desktop. More explanation in error/information messages regarding why MP3s and the like cannot be played would also be a benefit in educating users, even if some people do not read the messages. Finally, keep up the good work. I would love to see GNOME gain some more momentum in terms of adoption by desktop users. Keep striving for it! Danni From gnome-Usability@m.gmane.org Wed Jun 28 15:54:19 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86C8C3B019A for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:54:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30946-06 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:54:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51A763B008A for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:54:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Fvg6m-0003PT-M8 for Usability@gnome.org; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:53:56 +0200 Received: from 208.255.6.238 ([208.255.6.238]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:53:56 +0200 Received: from hawke by 208.255.6.238 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:53:56 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: Usability@gnome.org From: Alex Mauer Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:53:44 -0500 Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1151445381.25012.65.camel@dell.barefootcomputing.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig1F6DB6AB10F6CA222F800EE1" X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.255.6.238 User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) In-Reply-To: <1151445381.25012.65.camel@dell.barefootcomputing.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Sender: news X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.933 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.168, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=1.5, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -0.933 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 19:54:19 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig1F6DB6AB10F6CA222F800EE1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> Software cannot pay patent licenses". >=20 > The latter isn't true. That is, > (2) it's trying to play a piece of music (one imagines) and not in > fact trying to play a patent :-) "pay" is not the same as "play" --------------enig1F6DB6AB10F6CA222F800EE1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEot5Pspyc9T9S9Z8RAheWAJ9P+Ten7TVJfNyqLpkMgxG5vqKctACeOgrB b22evmr31rdj0wWzBrwZboo= =5ySV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig1F6DB6AB10F6CA222F800EE1-- From gnome-Usability@m.gmane.org Wed Jun 28 16:05:19 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D6EA3B01CE for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:05:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31334-06 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:05:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F9DD3B00DA for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:05:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1FvgGS-00058t-VK for Usability@gnome.org; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:03:56 +0200 Received: from 208.255.6.238 ([208.255.6.238]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:03:56 +0200 Received: from hawke by 208.255.6.238 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:03:56 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: Usability@gnome.org From: Alex Mauer Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:02:18 -0500 Lines: 45 Message-ID: References: <301d395f0606280256r707ec315s178e5efe70da7fce@mail.gmail.com> <20060628120412.10997.qmail@web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigF18874BA74D82C3519B16B37" X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.255.6.238 User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) In-Reply-To: <20060628120412.10997.qmail@web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Sender: news X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.085 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=1.5, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.085 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: [Usability] Copy & paste problem X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:05:19 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigF18874BA74D82C3519B16B37 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Joachim Noreiko wrote: > This is true -- however, the existence of the PRIMARY > system does have an impact on users, because across > all GTK application windows, there can be only one > selection. This breaks users' expectations of what an > application is, because something they do in one > window can affect the state of selection in another. >=20 > There's a bug open for this, but most solutions > suggested so far are looking at ways to highlight the > selection considered for PRIMARY in some way, and > nothing proposed so far is entirely satisfactory. Has it been proposed that PRIMARY holds the most recent selection, but making a new selection does not deselect the previous one? This seems to be the closest match to expectations, while keeping interference between PRIMARY and clipboard to a minimum. Is there anything unsatisfactory about this? > Could there be a way to combine the two systems? Is there any need to? --------------enigF18874BA74D82C3519B16B37 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEouBRspyc9T9S9Z8RAifGAJ9KrY0cHyUjd6uyvn0T2JWvtaNApwCeM2A+ oAkMWT1YVKCZluP9R3Gt0cY= =h+Uw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigF18874BA74D82C3519B16B37-- From gezimetc@shaw.ca Thu Jun 29 02:32:15 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F166A3B0206 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:32:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22815-10 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:32:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pd2mo1so.prod.shaw.ca (shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net [24.71.223.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8A5A3B000B for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:32:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pd4mr8so.prod.shaw.ca (pd4mr8so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.101]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1L008GTZF4UU80@l-daemon> for Usability@gnome.org; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 00:30:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml1so.prod.shaw.ca ([10.0.121.145]) by pd4mr8so.prod.shaw.ca (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1L00048ZF4MRC0@pd4mr8so.prod.shaw.ca> for Usability@gnome.org; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 00:30:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from laptopi ([70.65.137.227]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J1L006YPZF3RJ61@l-daemon> for Usability@gnome.org; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 00:30:40 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 00:30:39 -0600 From: Gezim Hoxha In-reply-to: To: Alex Mauer Message-id: <1151562639.7932.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <301d395f0606280256r707ec315s178e5efe70da7fce@mail.gmail.com> <20060628120412.10997.qmail@web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.394 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.837, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST=1.708, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.394 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Copy & paste problem X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 06:32:15 -0000 On Wed, 2006-28-06 at 15:02 -0500, Alex Mauer wrote: > Joachim Noreiko wrote: > > This is true -- however, the existence of the PRIMARY > > system does have an impact on users, because across > > all GTK application windows, there can be only one > > selection. This breaks users' expectations of what an > > application is, because something they do in one > > window can affect the state of selection in another. > > > > There's a bug open for this, but most solutions > > suggested so far are looking at ways to highlight the > > selection considered for PRIMARY in some way, and > > nothing proposed so far is entirely satisfactory. > > Has it been proposed that PRIMARY holds the most recent selection, but > making a new selection does not deselect the previous one? This seems > to be the closest match to expectations, while keeping interference > between PRIMARY and clipboard to a minimum. What you're saying is that PRIMARY should hold the second most recent selection (saying this because you say that it should hold the most recent selection but if you selection something that is no longer the most recent selection)? If this is the case than this behaviour is not necessarily desired, because if I select a URL and then open a new tab in epiphany, there is no URL so, I'd just place the cursor at the URL bar and want to paste the _most_ recent selection, rather then the second most recent one. However, if I wanted to go to that URL from the current tab, then I'd want to paste the second most recent selection since when I click the URL bar the current URL will be selected. -Gezim From Calum.Benson@Sun.COM Fri Jun 30 09:58:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEE0F3B02AA for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:58:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23483-10 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:58:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 256893B028E for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:58:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-05.sun.com ([192.18.2.115]) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5UDwFQG009306 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 14:58:17 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-05.sun.com by d1-emea-05.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J1O00301E5LMB00@d1-emea-05.sun.com> (original mail from Calum.Benson@Sun.COM) for usability@gnome.org; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 14:58:15 +0100 (BST) Received: from vpn-129-150-116-215.UK.Sun.COM ([129.150.116.215]) by d1-emea-05.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J1O00F8BET2IFW0@d1-emea-05.sun.com>; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 14:58:15 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 15:45:03 +0200 From: Calum Benson In-reply-to: <200606271641.06914.d2004@cosmopod.com> Sender: Calum.Benson@Sun.COM To: d2004@cosmopod.com Message-id: <1151675104.6191.70.camel@localhost.localdomain> Organization: Sun Microsystems Ireland Ltd. MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <200606271641.06914.d2004@cosmopod.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.583 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.015, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.583 X-Spam-Level: Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Consistency Issue between EOG and gThumb X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 13:58:27 -0000 On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 16:41 -0700, d2004@cosmopod.com wrote: > My preference would definitely be that EOG be modified so that the cursors are > used for panning, not for moving forwards and backwards between graphics. Hmm, we definitely had a discussion about this very issue at one point, but I can't find a bug about it so it may just have been on IRC, and I can't remember the outcome either. Please file a bug against EOG and we'll take it from there. (I'm afraid I can't help much with your other questions though...) Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:calum.benson@sun.com Java Desktop System Group http://ie.sun.com +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems From dalibor.petricevic@iskon.hr Thu Jun 29 02:56:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5532A3B011E for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:56:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23860-03 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:56:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mxout2.iskon.hr (mxout2.iskon.hr [213.191.128.16]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 37F293B013B for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:56:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 14767 invoked from network); 29 Jun 2006 08:55:55 +0200 X-Remote-IP: 213.191.142.122 Received: from unknown (HELO mx.iskon.hr) (213.191.142.122) by mxout2.iskon.hr with SMTP; 29 Jun 2006 08:55:55 +0200 Received: (qmail 9508 invoked from network); 29 Jun 2006 08:55:55 +0200 X-Remote-IP: 213.191.128.133 Received: from lan.iskon.hr (HELO ?10.0.3.242?) (213.191.128.133) by mx.iskon.hr with SMTP; 29 Jun 2006 08:55:55 +0200 Message-ID: <44A3797B.7070509@iskon.hr> Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:55:55 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-2?Q?Dalibor_Petri=E8evi=E6?= User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Mauer References: <20060626074948.67031.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1151445381.25012.65.camel@dell.barefootcomputing.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.11 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_05=-1.11] X-Spam-Score: -1.11 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 09:00:16 -0400 Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Chabada's Suggestions X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 06:56:03 -0000 Alex Mauer wrote: >>> Software cannot pay patent licenses". >> The latter isn't true. That is, >> (2) it's trying to play a piece of music (one imagines) and not in >> fact trying to play a patent :-) > > "pay" is not the same as "play" > This statement is 100% true. :-) -- dado From michael.s.gilbert@gmail.com Sun Jun 11 17:26:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3548B3B066D for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:26:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03372-02 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:26:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.198]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71B863B00C2 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:26:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so898841wxd for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 14:26:15 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=E6x4g84w3Wxy2kgsEZWnXCIto/u+bgbiVNUy8s0bEacoZyrS++1h7nSw17dMVy0l08l8XUJMB2wAM/jzt1NghBZBUDRXxWz9jj338jjNZIYZdCYv93fLKS2atVJI5kuo6c1KeprSWUCcpHQWmZc+d+hIXsSTUrBKNUmbpUM2pyY= Received: by 10.70.132.12 with SMTP id f12mr5681715wxd; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 14:26:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.65.5 with HTTP; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 14:26:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <8e2a98be0606111426w7d6407fdj68c34573295b317@mail.gmail.com> From: "Michael Gilbert" To: "Matthew Paul Thomas" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060608194722.GK18133@bee.dooz.org> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 09:59:24 -0400 Cc: Gnome usability , 371882@bugs.debian.org Subject: Re: [Usability] search is not easy to find aka "a few minutes with gnome virgins" X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 21:26:54 -0000 X-Original-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:26:15 -0400 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 21:26:54 -0000 hello Matthew, thank you for looking further into these issues. On 6/9/06, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > Hardly surprising: a file search definitely isn't a "place". It's not > an application either, but at least "Applications" looks vaguely like a > Start menu. the best solution is probably an item called something like "File Finder" placed in either "Applications" or "Applications -> System Tools." my gut tells me system tools is better, but that menu is already quite cluttered. > The default should be to search everything you can access, just like in > Web search engines, agreed. > Fortunately the dialog doesn't use the inscrutable "/" terminology, but > "File System" isn't much better, and the icon for it seems to be a > harmonica. Unfortunately there isn't really any good name for > "collection of obscurely-named things that has your files hidden in it > somewhere, and your programs in it spread across several other places, > but which can't be called your hard disk because it has your other > drives hidden inside it too". i think that "All Files" is a more intuitive description for "/" than "File System," and encompasses the needs of your above description. > This is a bug in that while the Find tool tells you "No files found", > it does not mention what it was searching for, so there is no way to > distinguish between a search that has finished with no results and one > that hasn't started yet. note that if one has done a search the dialog will say "No files found" even if the user begins typing a different search term. at this point the software is lying because it doesn't know whether or not there are no files matching the new term. it would be better for the "No files found" feedback to disappear the moment the user modifies the search term or changes any item in the dialog. > Thanks for your interesting report. you're quite welcome. i'm glad to do my part to help make software better. have a nice day. mike From wohler@newt.com Tue Jun 13 12:23:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCF4E3B0071 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:23:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29812-05 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:23:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tassie.newt.com (tassie.newt.com [70.85.162.231]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06F753B00D9 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:23:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from olgas.newt.com (m590e36d0.tmodns.net [208.54.14.89]) by tassie.newt.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F3B71D0A3D; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:22:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by olgas.newt.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 937AF16FB4; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:22:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from olgas.newt.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by olgas.newt.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8971216FAD; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:22:36 -0700 (PDT) To: Calum Benson In-reply-to: References: <87d5dk8tk3.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <51419b2c0606071618k7282f803n66df78fbf1f0f513@mail.gmail.com> <4487BF59.3030100@gmail.com> <740c3aec0606090832n1f5d4aa4x4de919adafaccd15@mail.gmail.com> <87zmgm72ix.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <1149868755.7852.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <17538.1149869665@olgas.newt.com> Comments: In-reply-to Calum Benson message dated "Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:06:57 +0100." Organization: Newt Software X-Mailer: MH-E 8.0; nmh 1.1; GNU Emacs 22.0.50 X-Image-URL: http://www.newt.com/wohler/images/bill-diving.png Message-ID: <3515.1150215756@olgas.newt.com> From: Bill Wohler X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.062 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.054, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.456] X-Spam-Score: -1.062 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 09:59:24 -0400 Cc: Usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Use of C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 16:23:36 -0000 X-Original-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:22:36 -0700 X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 16:23:36 -0000 Calum Benson wrote: > On 9 Jun 2006, at 17:14, Bill Wohler wrote: > > > > Well, I tried C-PageUp/Down in the GtkTreeView widget (in GnuCash), > > and I have no idea what it's doing. > > In a tree view, Ctrl+PgUp/PgDn should be moving focus to the item at > the top or bottom of the current view; in other controls, it's the > shortcut for scrolling left/right: > > http://www.gnome.org/learn/access-guide/latest/keynav-23.html#keynav-35 > > If it's doing something else, it's either a bug, or it's been over- > ridden by a developer who thinks they know better :) Thanks, Calum. Well, that's not what I'm seeing. A GnuCash developer told me that he wouldn't overwrite the GtkTreeView bindings to allow C-PageUp/Down to move between tabs so it's unlikely that it has been overridden. A puzzler indeed. I'll mention this to the developers. I still think that the HIG should specify C-PageUp/Down for moving between tabs and that other widgets should not use this binding. -- Bill Wohler http://www.newt.com/wohler/ GnuPG ID:610BD9AD Maintainer of comp.mail.mh FAQ and MH-E. If you're passed on the right, you're in the wrong lane. From akrodha@gmx.de Sun Jun 25 16:05:29 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B13103B0C45 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 16:05:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30044-07 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 16:05:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.21]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 98BBF3B0A3E for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2006 15:57:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 25 Jun 2006 19:57:31 -0000 Received: from p54B9E419.dip.t-dialin.net (EHLO [192.168.2.23]) [84.185.228.25] by mail.gmx.net (mp020) with SMTP; 25 Jun 2006 21:57:31 +0200 X-Authenticated: #19803887 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7DB7E6BF-0358-4181-AAAC-514F63FBE93D@gmx.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: usability@gnome.org From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9_Alvarado?= Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 21:57:27 +0200 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 08 Jul 2006 10:30:56 -0400 Subject: [Usability] Alt-drag panel items? X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 20:05:30 -0000 Hello everyone I'm a huge fan of the Alt-drag trick for moving windows around. I was =20= wondering if the same thing could be done with the panel? Currently =20 moving panel items is a mess. Most can only be moved by right-=20 clicking and selecting move, although some of them (application =20 launchers) can simply be dragged=E2=80=94provided they're not locked. Maybe we can simplify the panel by locking ALL items (thereby =20 removing the need for the "Lock" context menu item), but letting the =20 user Alt-drag them around (thereby removing the need for the "Move" =20 context menu item) and maybe even dragging them off the panel or into =20= the Wastebasket (thereby removing the need for the "Remove" context =20 menu item). This could free up the context menu for other purposes. Does it sound like a good idea? =E2=80=93Jos=C3=A9 Alvarado, newcomer to the mailing list P.S. I commented in Bugzilla (http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?=20 id=3D303135), but I figured this might interest the Usability group. =E0=A5=90