From themuso at themuso.com Wed Jun 14 09:43:40 2006 From: themuso at themuso.com (Luke Yelavich) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 23:43:40 +1000 Subject: Orca 0.2.5, and LSR 0.2.1 packages available. Message-ID: <20060614134340.GA26307@themuso.com> Hi all I am happy to announce that packages for both LSR 0.2.1, and orca 0.2.5 are available for Ubuntu dapper. To use them, put the following line in your /etc/apt/sources.list file deb http://www.themuso.com/ubuntu/accessibility dapper universe Then run sudo apt-get update, and sudo apt-get install gnome-orca or lsr depending on which package you want. Packages exist for both i386 and powerpc. If people want amd64 packages, if you could possibly give me access to an amd64 box, I would be happy to get them built and make them available. You can also access the source packages, should you want to know how they are built. Add the following line to /etc/apt/sources.list deb-src http://www.themuso.com/ubuntu/accessibility dapper universe Enjoy! -- Luke Yelavich GPG key: 0xD06320CE (http://www.themuso.com/themuso-gpg-key.txt) Email & MSN: themuso at themuso.com ICQ: 18444344 Jabber: themuso at jabber.org.au -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mail.gnome.org/pipermail/gnome-accessibility-list/attachments/20060614/8f31db06/attachment.bin From janina at rednote.net Wed Jun 14 12:17:05 2006 From: janina at rednote.net (Janina Sajka) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:17:05 -0400 Subject: Announcing Orca 0.2.5 rpms In-Reply-To: <1150069937.5071.4.camel@localhost> References: <1150069937.5071.4.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20060614161705.GW2259@rednote.net> rpm packages of Orca-0.2.5 for Fedora Core 5 are now available from: ftp://SpeakupModified.Org/fedora/rednote/ The binary is under RPMS, and the source under SRPMS as usual with Fedora. Installation There is yet some unresolved dependency issue with these rpms, so they probably will need to be installed using the --nodeps option as follows: rpm -Uv --nodeps orca-0.2.5-1.i386.rpm However, I can attest the resulting installation works for me on two different systems. I have first run: orca -t from the console, as the same user I am in the gui desktop. Once on the desktop, I have issued Alt-F2 and typed: orca -t again to get things started. Seems wrong, but is working for me on two systems. Special Note: You may need to upgrade your Gnome Desktop to Fedora Development. If you find things not working with the current release and updated Gnome environment, try: yum --disablerepo='*' --enablerepo=development groupupdate 'GNOME Desktop Environment' Note the above command is issued on one line, though it's probably been broken into at least two lines in this email message. -- Janina Sajka Phone: +1.240.715.1272 Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC http://CapitalAccessibility.Com Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada--Go to http://ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more. Chair, Accessibility Workgroup Free Standards Group (FSG) janina at freestandards.org http://a11y.org From aaronleventhal at moonset.net Wed Jun 14 11:06:52 2006 From: aaronleventhal at moonset.net (Aaron Leventhal) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:06:52 -0400 Subject: Major rewrite will break trunk temporarily Message-ID: <4490260C.6030606@moonset.net> Work is progressing on https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=340829 This is a major rewrite which will remove nsAccessibleText, nsAcessibleEditableText and nsAccessibleHyperText classes, and move that code into a new cross platform class called nsHyperTextAccessible. Please be informed that when this goes in, it will take about a month for the trunk to stabilize. This does not affect the MOZILLA_1_8 branch which is being used to develop Firefox 2. This rewrite will ultimately find its way into Firefox 3 due out in 2007. When the smoke clears, we will have something very close to this: http://www.mozilla.org/access/unix/new-atk - Aaron From Evan.Yan@Sun.COM Fri Jun 2 03:30:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22E083B0387 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 03:30:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06467-05 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 03:30:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sineb-mail-2.sun.com (sineb-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.19.7]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1A803B1061 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 03:29:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fe-apac-05.sun.com (fe-apac-05.sun.com [192.18.19.176] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k527TuS2009928 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:29:57 +0800 (SGT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J080000125VLS00@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Evan.Yan@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:29:56 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.158.144.94] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J08003J425W5DGH@mail-apac.sun.com> for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:29:56 +0800 (SGT) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:31:13 +0800 From: Evan Yan Sender: Evan.Yan@Sun.COM To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-id: <447FE941.4080001@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Can GOK work with autocompletion? X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 07:30:36 -0000 Hi all, I'm now working on a mozilla a11y bug, about autocompletion. The URL of the bug is https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=338242 I'm not sure whether GOK can work with autocompletion. When I input something used before into a textbox, the autocompletion will pop up, could GOK update to show the autocompletion items? I also tried that in Evolution. When writing a email, inputing a mail address which have been in the contact list, the autocompletion pop up, GOK also can't work with it. Is that a GOK bug? Thanks, Evan From alastairirving19@hotmail.com Fri Jun 2 07:41:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 159813B040E for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 07:41:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22456-10 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 07:41:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (bay112-dav20.bay112.hotmail.com [64.4.26.92]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCD603B03DE for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 07:41:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 04:41:17 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.129.189.168 by BAY112-DAV20.phx.gbl with DAV; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 11:41:14 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.129.189.168] X-Originating-Email: [alastairirving19@hotmail.com] X-Sender: alastairirving19@hotmail.com From: "Alastair Irving" To: Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 12:41:24 +0100 Message-ID: <000201c68639$7a31a6d0$0301a8c0@alastair> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C68641.DBF60ED0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2616 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Importance: Normal X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Jun 2006 11:41:17.0982 (UTC) FILETIME=[7621C3E0:01C68639] X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.544 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.364, BAYES_50=0.001, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST=1.708, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: 0.544 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Problem with orca X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 11:41:20 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C68641.DBF60ED0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello I have just installed orca 0.2.4 on my fedora core 5 laptop. The compilation went without errors. However, when I load orca, it says "orca initialised, switching to focus tracking mode", and then speech stops. I am informed that a message saying that the gnome panel has unexpectedly quit is displayed. I had this same problem with the version of gnopernicus shipped with fc5, but when I reinstalled from source it was resolved. Has anyone come across this before? Alastair Irving e-mail (and MSN): alastairirving19@hotmail.com ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C68641.DBF60ED0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Hello
 
I have = just=20 installed orca 0.2.4 on my fedora core 5 laptop.  The compilation = went=20 without errors.  However, when I load orca, it says "orca = initialised,=20 switching to focus tracking mode", and then speech stops.  I am = informed=20 that a message saying that the gnome panel has unexpectedly quit is=20 displayed. 
 
I had = this same=20 problem with the version of gnopernicus shipped with fc5, but when I = reinstalled=20 from source it was resolved.
 
Has = anyone come=20 across this before?
 
Alastair = Irving
e-mail (and = MSN): alastairirving19@hotmail.com=
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C68641.DBF60ED0-- From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Fri Jun 2 10:57:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D58D13B1189 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 10:57:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01532-10 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 10:57:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96D273B1174 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 10:57:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-04.sun.com ([192.18.39.114]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k52EvGNh007567 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 07:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-04.sun.com by d1-sfbay-04.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0800501LJXA200@d1-sfbay-04.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 07:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.21.165] by d1-sfbay-04.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J08000OEMVDEZ40@d1-sfbay-04.sun.com> for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 07:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 07:57:11 -0700 From: Peter Korn In-reply-to: <447FE941.4080001@Sun.COM> Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: Evan Yan Message-id: <448051C7.7050307@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <447FE941.4080001@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (Windows/20060308) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.523 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.075, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.523 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Can GOK work with autocompletion? X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 14:57:57 -0000 Hi Evan, This is an interesting idea - having GOK work with auto-completion! GOK has its own work completion algorithm, but that by its nature cannot have application-specific knowledge, and so generally won't do as good a job. The question is, how should GOK show such application-specific word completion, and how do we communicate that between the application and GOK via AT-SPI. Evan, David - any thoughts? Regards, Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. > Hi all, > > I'm now working on a mozilla a11y bug, about autocompletion. The URL of > the bug is > https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=338242 > > I'm not sure whether GOK can work with autocompletion. > When I input something used before into a textbox, the autocompletion > will pop up, could GOK update to show the autocompletion items? > I also tried that in Evolution. When writing a email, inputing a mail > address which have been in the contact list, the autocompletion pop up, > GOK also can't work with it. > > Is that a GOK bug? > > Thanks, > Evan > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > From david.bolter@utoronto.ca Fri Jun 2 15:28:02 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F18553B0210 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:28:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18925-03 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:27:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bureau8.utcc.utoronto.ca (bureau8.utcc.utoronto.ca [128.100.132.18]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B6C63B0B87 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:27:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail5.ns.utoronto.ca ([128.100.132.37] EHLO webmail5.ns.utoronto.ca ident: IDENT-NOT-QUERIED [port 51626]) by bureau8.utcc.utoronto.ca with ESMTP id <25121-29744>; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:25:00 -0400 Received: by webmail5.ns.utoronto.ca id <873031-8996>; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:24:50 -0400 Received: from 64.231.159.101 ( [64.231.159.101]) as user bolterda@10.143.0.52 by webmail.utoronto.ca with HTTP; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:24:46 -0400 Message-ID: <1149276286.4480907eece14@webmail.utoronto.ca> Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:24:46 -0400 From: david.bolter@utoronto.ca To: Peter Korn References: <447FE941.4080001@Sun.COM> <448051C7.7050307@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <448051C7.7050307@sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.638 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_REAL_NAME=0.961] X-Spam-Score: -1.638 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Evan Yan , gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Can GOK work with autocompletion? X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 19:28:02 -0000 Hi guys. Technically I'm on holiday today. I think we could choose an existing event (or propose a new one) for notification regarding this... and GOK could create a key representing the current app-autocompletion. Nice idea guys! cheers, D Quoting Peter Korn : > Hi Evan, > > This is an interesting idea - having GOK work with auto-completion! GOK > has its own work completion algorithm, but that by its nature cannot > have application-specific knowledge, and so generally won't do as good a > job. > > The question is, how should GOK show such application-specific word > completion, and how do we communicate that between the application and > GOK via AT-SPI. Evan, David - any thoughts? > > > Regards, > > Peter Korn > Accessibility Architect, > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > Hi all, > > > > I'm now working on a mozilla a11y bug, about autocompletion. The URL of > > the bug is > > https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=338242 > > > > I'm not sure whether GOK can work with autocompletion. > > When I input something used before into a textbox, the autocompletion > > will pop up, could GOK update to show the autocompletion items? > > I also tried that in Evolution. When writing a email, inputing a mail > > address which have been in the contact list, the autocompletion pop up, > > GOK also can't work with it. > > > > Is that a GOK bug? > > > > Thanks, > > Evan > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Fri Jun 2 16:00:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C770E3B0339 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 16:00:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20811-03 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 16:00:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9B203B015D for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 16:00:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-01.sun.com ([192.18.39.111]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k52JxvUS028281 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 12:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-01.sun.com by d1-sfbay-01.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0900G010IPLV00@d1-sfbay-01.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 12:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.21.165] by d1-sfbay-01.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0900CKK0VV9U10@d1-sfbay-01.sun.com>; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 12:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 12:59:53 -0700 From: Peter Korn In-reply-to: <1149276286.4480907eece14@webmail.utoronto.ca> Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: david.bolter@utoronto.ca Message-id: <448098B9.8080204@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <447FE941.4080001@Sun.COM> <448051C7.7050307@sun.com> <1149276286.4480907eece14@webmail.utoronto.ca> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (Windows/20060308) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.528 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.070, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.528 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Evan Yan , gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Can GOK work with autocompletion? X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:00:08 -0000 Hi David, Hmmm... I wonder about using the AccessibleAction interface for this, with a naming convention we might all follow for the . Something like: "auto-complete:" as the action name, where "" is the actual auto-complete text that would be inserted (and thus displayed on the GOK key). Then the tooltip-like window that appears with the auto-complete options would implement the ATK_Action interface. This is more heavy-weight than having a special role for the tooltip-like window with text to be extracted, but it is also less constraining of the user interface implementation that programmers render. Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. > Hi guys. Technically I'm on holiday today. I think we could choose an existing > event (or propose a new one) for notification regarding this... and GOK could > create a key representing the current app-autocompletion. > > Nice idea guys! > > cheers, > D > Quoting Peter Korn : > > >> Hi Evan, >> >> This is an interesting idea - having GOK work with auto-completion! GOK >> has its own work completion algorithm, but that by its nature cannot >> have application-specific knowledge, and so generally won't do as good a >> job. >> >> The question is, how should GOK show such application-specific word >> completion, and how do we communicate that between the application and >> GOK via AT-SPI. Evan, David - any thoughts? >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Peter Korn >> Accessibility Architect, >> Sun Microsystems, Inc. >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I'm now working on a mozilla a11y bug, about autocompletion. The URL of >>> the bug is >>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=338242 >>> >>> I'm not sure whether GOK can work with autocompletion. >>> When I input something used before into a textbox, the autocompletion >>> will pop up, could GOK update to show the autocompletion items? >>> I also tried that in Evolution. When writing a email, inputing a mail >>> address which have been in the contact list, the autocompletion pop up, >>> GOK also can't work with it. >>> >>> Is that a GOK bug? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Evan >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > From Evan.Yan@Sun.COM Sun Jun 4 13:47:19 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DBC03B0149 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 13:47:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00810-07 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 13:47:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sineb-mail-1.sun.com (sineb-mail-1.sun.com [192.18.19.6]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE6513B0130 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 13:47:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fe-apac-06.sun.com (fe-apac-06.sun.com [192.18.19.177] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k54HlBlW001893 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:47:13 +0800 (SGT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0C00C01JYLYV00@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Evan.Yan@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 01:47:11 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.150.145.22] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0C00D5YK1F36A2@mail-apac.sun.com>; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 01:47:11 +0800 (SGT) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 01:46:27 +0800 From: Evan Yan In-reply-to: <448098B9.8080204@sun.com> Sender: Evan.Yan@Sun.COM To: Peter Korn Message-id: <44831C73.8020402@Sun.COM> Organization: sceri MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <447FE941.4080001@Sun.COM> <448051C7.7050307@sun.com> <1149276286.4480907eece14@webmail.utoronto.ca> <448098B9.8080204@sun.com> User-Agent: Mail/News 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060515) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: Cc: david.bolter@utoronto.ca, Ginn.Chen@Sun.COM, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Can GOK work with autocompletion? X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 17:47:19 -0000 Hi Peter & David, I feel that app-autocompletion is something similar to pop-up menu. Could we leverage the implementation of accessible pop-up menu? I found GOK can update to show autocompletion items under some particular situation, like the following steps: 1. start Firefox and locate to www.google.com, focus on the "search" textbox; 2. select GOK UI-Grab 3. click on the "search" textbox by mouse directly, not through GOK, that makes the autocompletion pop up. Then, GOK will update to show autocompletion items. However, clicking on the items shown by GOK has no effect except collapsing the autocompletion window. Hope this could help. Besides GOK can't work with autocompletion, when autocompletion in Firefox pops up, it takes minutes for GOK to start responsing any action on it. I could see by the event-listener tool of at-spi that there are hundreds of events through GOK and Firefox, it seems GOK are refreshing all the atk objects. is that a normal phenomenon or somthing wrong? Thank you, Evan Peter Korn wrote: > Hi David, > > Hmmm... I wonder about using the AccessibleAction interface for this, > with a naming convention we might all follow for the . Something like: > > "auto-complete:" > > as the action name, where "" is the actual auto-complete text > that would be inserted (and thus displayed on the GOK key). Then the > tooltip-like window that appears with the auto-complete options would > implement the ATK_Action interface. > This is more heavy-weight than having a special role for the > tooltip-like window with text to be extracted, but it is also less > constraining of the user interface implementation that programmers > render. > > > Peter Korn > Accessibility Architect, > Sun Microsystems, Inc. >> Hi guys. Technically I'm on holiday today. I think we could choose >> an existing >> event (or propose a new one) for notification regarding this... and >> GOK could >> create a key representing the current app-autocompletion. >> >> Nice idea guys! >> >> cheers, >> D >> Quoting Peter Korn : >> >> >>> Hi Evan, >>> >>> This is an interesting idea - having GOK work with auto-completion! >>> GOK has its own work completion algorithm, but that by its nature >>> cannot have application-specific knowledge, and so generally won't >>> do as good a job. >>> >>> The question is, how should GOK show such application-specific word >>> completion, and how do we communicate that between the application >>> and GOK via AT-SPI. Evan, David - any thoughts? >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Peter Korn >>> Accessibility Architect, >>> Sun Microsystems, Inc. >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I'm now working on a mozilla a11y bug, about autocompletion. The >>>> URL of >>>> the bug is >>>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=338242 >>>> >>>> I'm not sure whether GOK can work with autocompletion. >>>> When I input something used before into a textbox, the autocompletion >>>> will pop up, could GOK update to show the autocompletion items? >>>> I also tried that in Evolution. When writing a email, inputing a mail >>>> address which have been in the contact list, the autocompletion pop >>>> up, >>>> GOK also can't work with it. >>>> >>>> Is that a GOK bug? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Evan >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >>>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >>>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >> > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From bram@bramd.nl Sun Jun 4 17:55:08 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E18483B01B7 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:55:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13065-09 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:55:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bramd.nl (dsl251-4-101.fastxdsl.nl [80.101.4.251]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72A083B02B6 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:55:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (linux.bramd.nl [127.0.0.1]) by bramd.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54ED5144103 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 23:54:59 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: bramd.nl antivirus Received: from bramd.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (linux.lan.bramd.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n9CAfyI2djAx for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 23:54:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bramdd.lan.bramd.nl (bramdd.lan.bramd.nl [192.168.1.12]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by bramd.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53A33120109 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 23:54:55 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 23:54:47 +0200 From: Bram Duvigneau X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.80.03) Professional Organization: BramD.nl X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1759379234.20060604235447@bramd.nl> To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.464 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.464 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Gnopernicus and the new ubuntu installer X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Bram Duvigneau List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 21:55:08 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: MD5 Hi all, I just tried the new Ubuntu Dapper Drake live cd and the ubuntu express installer with gnopernicus. Gnopernicus is running quite well from the cd, but I had to do a few steps to get the installer talking: - - - Launch gnopernicus - - - Enable assistive technology support - - - Log out and in again - - - Launch gnopernicus from terminal, otherwise gnome-panel crshes - - - Get a root shell with sudo -s - - - Launch gnopernicus from there to ge taccess to the installer So far so good, but when I get to the screen where I can select my location, I'm getting stuck on the combobox of citties. I selected English as system language, therefor I'm only getting citties in the usa. I tried everything, but I couldn't get to citties in Europe. Does someone know how to manage this? Maybe it's also a good idea to change this in future versions to something easier to use for the blind, because this isn't really friendly for new blind linux users. Bram -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6 iQEVAwUARINWqq7p29XxtEd/AQFVmggAg7dwV93Mm1RY0Zh08gzi4AqUBBy4ZfmZ mPvrGkmVHOab2PvLu8wdTqMFBmEmPnmhL1M3nHUCV+eKazALhaAff+jCs3o3Z2th YyQHUcypY1Won/8lxoQvv0el2n33DJg9yfGIjxp0iIs1n5HxSnMf3X2eGKQsGtvi 2n3pR85Zj/pezsTRBMHGNy8H60raMYPY5UascT8H630feZqlMksuSZDxn47cJxLB doPU+i2hUVtY3ZovNANW34jYCEF0Uxux60ZcQUS8tauz0733v3MTeJYuX57iTU+2 5KGRwC9AqRQmS9CiMiuMQwv4QATK6Iy/IyfUBdeBOJyDdZMQmuTzxw== =MsLy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nowindows@terrencevak.net Sun Jun 4 21:29:30 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16F823B0448 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 21:29:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24753-03 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 21:29:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtpout08-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout08-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.12]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 128B23B0356 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 21:29:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 31491 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 01:29:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.223.182.2) by smtpout08-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.12) with ESMTP; 05 Jun 2006 01:29:25 -0000 Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:29:16 -0800 (AKDT) From: nowindows@terrencevak.net X-X-Sender: nowindows@Knoppix To: Bram Duvigneau In-Reply-To: <1759379234.20060604235447@bramd.nl> Message-ID: References: <1759379234.20060604235447@bramd.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.221 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.74, NO_REAL_NAME=0.961] X-Spam-Score: 0.221 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Gnopernicus and the new ubuntu installer X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 01:29:30 -0000 Do you still have the URL for that installer by chance? I'd like to try that instead of the patched-together arrangement I have now, which isn't working too well. Thanks, Terrence From petra@access-for-all.ch Mon Jun 5 01:01:19 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98AC23B0278 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:01:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03080-09 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:01:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from srv94-187.ip-tech.ch (backup01.scalera.ch [195.129.94.187]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F3023B039A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:01:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 26277 invoked by uid 503); 5 Jun 2006 05:08:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blade1-4.iptech.localdomain) (10.10.1.250) by 0 with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 05:08:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 22427 invoked by uid 104); 5 Jun 2006 05:01:10 -0000 Received: from 62.203.161.3 by blade1-4 (envelope-from , uid 408) with qmail-scanner-1.25 (clamdscan: 0.87.1. spamassassin: 2.64. Clear:RC:1(62.203.161.3):. Processed in 0.058345 secs); 05 Jun 2006 05:01:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO LESE-SCHREIBSYS) (62.203.161.3) by blade1-4.iptech.localdomain with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 05:01:09 -0000 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 07:01:12 +0200 From: Petra Ritter X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.0.1.33) Home X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <467747190.20060605070112@access-for-all.ch> To: "gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.136 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: 0.136 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Ubuntu Dapper Drake live cd X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Petra Ritter List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 05:01:19 -0000 Hello, I tried the Ubuntu Dapper Drake live cd, too and I run in to two accessibility problems. 1th If I start Ubuntu with the Option 'Blindness from the Accessebility Men=FC Gnopernicus commes up however the speech does mot work after the system is up and runing. Petra From petra@access-for-all.ch Mon Jun 5 01:25:24 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44F793B03EA for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:25:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04430-09 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:25:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from srv94-187.ip-tech.ch (backup01.scalera.ch [195.129.94.187]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6A063B026A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:25:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 5711 invoked by uid 503); 5 Jun 2006 05:32:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blade1-4.iptech.localdomain) (10.10.1.250) by 0 with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 05:32:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 30910 invoked by uid 104); 5 Jun 2006 05:25:20 -0000 Received: from 62.203.161.3 by blade1-4 (envelope-from , uid 408) with qmail-scanner-1.25 (clamdscan: 0.87.1. spamassassin: 2.64. Clear:RC:1(62.203.161.3):. Processed in 0.055812 secs); 05 Jun 2006 05:25:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO LESE-SCHREIBSYS) (62.203.161.3) by blade1-4.iptech.localdomain with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 05:25:20 -0000 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 07:25:23 +0200 From: Petra Ritter X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.0.1.33) Home X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <14710359560.20060605072523@access-for-all.ch> To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.32 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.144, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.32 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Ubuntu Dapper Drake live cd X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Petra Ritter List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 05:25:25 -0000 Hello , I tried the Ubuntu Dapper Drake live cd, too and I run in to two accessibility problems. 1th If I start Ubuntu with the Option 'Blindness from the Accessebility Men=FC Gnopernicus commes up however the speech does not work after the system is up and runing. 2th I diden't managed to read the Help from Gnopernicus itself. Gnopernicus just diden't read it. The same problem appear in Firefox and in Evolution. It seam thet Gnopernicus cant read any HTML dokument. Assuming the help from Gnopernicus is HTML, too I tried alrady F7 in order to activate the "Carat Browsing" however with no success at all. Is there anything else that I can try to get Gnopernicus to read the Help? Or is there anywhere on the Internet a documentation for Gnome exept the Tabele of the Layers on the Gnopernicus Website? Petra From henrik@ubuntu.com Mon Jun 5 05:20:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACF893B00CE for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 05:20:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17743-10 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 05:20:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 116903B010D for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 05:20:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.0.10] (henrik.gotadsl.co.uk [82.133.122.11]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44EE83392D4; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 10:09:21 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <4483F4C6.8080109@ubuntu.com> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:09:26 +0100 From: Henrik Nilsen Omma User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060522) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org References: <1759379234.20060604235447@bramd.nl> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.591 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.008, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.591 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Gnopernicus and the new ubuntu installer X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 09:20:07 -0000 nowindows@terrencevak.net wrote: > Do you still have the URL for that installer by chance? I'd like > to try that instead of the patched-together arrangement I have now, which > isn't working too well. > The Ubuntu Live CD can be downloaded from here: http://www.ubuntu.com/download That comes in the form of an ISO image that must be burned to a CD, and then boot with that CD. Some instructions on using the accessibility features are here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/doc/StartGuide Note that the system does have some limitations. - Henrik From henrik@ubuntu.com Mon Jun 5 05:25:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43B9A3B031D for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 05:25:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18450-02 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 05:25:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AC5C3B010D for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 05:25:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.0.10] (henrik.gotadsl.co.uk [82.133.122.11]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FB2433AF0D; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 10:19:11 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <4483F714.6040203@ubuntu.com> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:19:16 +0100 From: Henrik Nilsen Omma User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060522) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org References: <1759379234.20060604235447@bramd.nl> In-Reply-To: <1759379234.20060604235447@bramd.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Gnopernicus and the new ubuntu installer X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 09:25:20 -0000 Bram Duvigneau wrote: > Gnopernicus is running quite well from the cd, but I had to do a few > steps to get the installer talking: > > - - - Launch gnopernicus > - - - Enable assistive technology support > - - - Log out and in again > - - - Launch gnopernicus from terminal, otherwise gnome-panel crshes > - - - Get a root shell with sudo -s > - - - Launch gnopernicus from there to ge taccess to the installer > > So far so good, but when I get to the screen where I can select my > location, I'm getting stuck on the combobox of citties. I selected > English as system language, therefor I'm only getting citties in the > usa. I tried everything, but I couldn't get to citties in Europe. Does > someone know how to manage this? Maybe it's also a good idea to change > this in future versions to something easier to use for the blind, > because this isn't really friendly for new blind linux users. > Hi Bram, Thanks for testing and providing this work-around. I've added your description to this page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/doc/StartGuide The Ubiquity installer is basically a very new piece of software with several rough edges. Well done in getting it to work with speech at all using the sudo command. Our goal is obviously to provide a trouble free install path where everything 'just works' as expected. This kind of testing is very valuable in that regard. This is our first attempt ad doing it though, so we expect to have a more polished offering in the October/November release. It would also be useful if you could file a bug about the city combo-box here: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+filebug Thanks. - Henrik From ermengol@gmail.com Thu Jun 8 10:52:26 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E9F53B0524 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 10:52:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13363-01 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 10:52:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.193]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8421F3B0F2F for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 10:52:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so419164wxd for ; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 07:52:23 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=iMykGjuJPdkSVqsogvrI8pNPbnPzh/k/ZlsMh4fYlBeHomvTmrqVXKrE6SJ/1/4w8jwRyEPx1n2j35hZf+ztqo2Hd1/wOT/0G/SyLYWt79JeDd3k2goiEf1W2hRDahYvAQeK0PziznPQKlK2m6XFSXLm7rF3rzK8slShaUb/iqA= Received: by 10.70.100.17 with SMTP id x17mr2173736wxb; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 07:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.43.13 with HTTP; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 07:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 16:52:23 +0200 From: "Ermengol Bota" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.593 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.593 X-Spam-Level: Subject: gnopernicus-magnifier. Full screen magnifier with dummy driver X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 14:52:26 -0000 Hello, I'm trying to use the gnopernicus-magnifier as a full screen magnifier. I followed the instructions at: http://www.gnome.org/learn/access-guide/2.10/apas03.html I did it with the dummy driver, but this approach have a problem and is that you have two displays (one on the left to the other) One display is the zoomed version of the other. But the mouse can move freely from on display to another, so if you are working with the zoomed display and you move the mouse to the left (or right, it depends on X config) then you "move" to the non-zoomed display. And this is a little bit annoying :) Does any body knows about a workaround for this? or any other approach to use full screen magnification on linux? Thanks a lot -- * Ermengol * /*********************************************** * Els ordinadors no resolen problemes, * * simplement executen solucions. * ************************************************/ From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Fri Jun 9 02:15:04 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FC353B00F4 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 02:15:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32071-05 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 02:15:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD48D3B00C3 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 02:15:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-04.sun.com ([192.18.39.114]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k596EsDX009979 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 23:14:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-04.sun.com by d1-sfbay-04.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0K00I01SETE000@d1-sfbay-04.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:14:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([63.207.212.14]) by d1-sfbay-04.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0K00IGLXCT2510@d1-sfbay-04.sun.com>; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:14:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:14:52 -0700 From: Peter Korn In-reply-to: Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: Ermengol Bota Message-id: <448911DC.4090607@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: gnopernicus-magnifier. Full screen magnifier with dummy driver X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 06:15:04 -0000 Hi Ermengol, This is a problem with our current magnification architecture. We are looking forward to magnifiers that are based on several X extensions - most especially the COMPOSITE extension - which will allow us to avoid this bit of hackery. Unfortunately we aren't quite ready with those yet. Regards, Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. > Hello, > I'm trying to use the gnopernicus-magnifier as a full screen magnifier. > I followed the instructions at: > http://www.gnome.org/learn/access-guide/2.10/apas03.html > > I did it with the dummy driver, but this approach have a problem and > is that you have two displays (one on the left to the other) > One display is the zoomed version of the other. But the mouse can move > freely from on display to another, so if you are working with the > zoomed display and you move the mouse to the left (or right, it > depends on X config) then you "move" to the non-zoomed display. And > this is a little bit annoying :) > > Does any body knows about a workaround for this? or any other approach > to use full screen magnification on linux? > > Thanks a lot > From enrico@enricozini.org Sat Jun 10 05:22:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 168EE3B019E for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 05:22:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22030-10 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 05:22:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agnus.ngi.it (agnus.ngi.it [88.149.128.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 705403B0130 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 05:22:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eddie.casa (81-174-12-206.f5.ngi.it [81.174.12.206]) by agnus.ngi.it (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5A9Mn6W017903 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 11:22:52 +0200 Received: from eddie.casa (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eddie.casa (Postfix) with ESMTP id A278D3000BA for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 11:22:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from marvin.casa (marvin.casa [192.168.1.2]) by eddie.casa (Postfix) with ESMTP id 920CA3000B9 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 11:22:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from enrico by marvin.casa with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1FozgF-00037s-00 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 11:22:55 +0200 Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 11:22:55 +0200 From: Enrico Zini To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060610092255.GA9803@marvin.casa> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060403 Sender: Enrico Zini X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.406 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.058, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.406 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Fixing brittle speech support on Dapper X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 09:22:57 -0000 --HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Hello, Hi, I'm Enrico, my current task is to get Dapper to become a usable desktop for Italian blind people. I've been fiddling with the speech accessibility features of Dapper for a few days now, and I found lots of ways to get gnome-speech to hang, Now I'm looking for ways to keep it working. One hanging scenario: - freshly installed dapper, Italian localization - disable esd from preferences/audio - enable accessibility and screen reader from preferences/accessibility - log out and in again - gnopernicus works - disable screen reader (but not accessibility) from preferences/accessibility - log out and in again - orca-setup, works fine, speaks - orca - speech doesn't work anymore. test-speech exits with: Exception Unknown CORBA exception id: 'IDL:omg.org/CORBA/COMM_FAILURE:1.0' getting voice list. Another hanging scenario: - freshly installed dapper, Italian localization - disable esd from preferences/audio - enable 'universe' and install festlex-ifd, festvox-italp16k and festvox-itapc16k to have italian synthesis - enable accessibility and screen reader from preferences/accessibility - log out and in again - gnopernicus works in English - go in the preferences/speech/voices menu and choose the italian female voice for all voices, raise the rate a bit. The female voice speaks when raising the rate. - close the Voices menu, no more speech. test-speech exits with: Exception Unknown CORBA exception id: 'IDL:omg.org/CORBA/COMM_FAILURE:1.0' getting voice list. In test-speech, the Speech Dispatcher output doesn't work. The festival one works, but breaks after a minimum of use, where minimum of use means just choosing the voices I'd like to use. What can I look/try to get myself unstuck? Ciao, Enrico -- GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini --HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEio9v9LSwzHl+v6sRAmOUAJ9bdcQUGWLxi/5ojqTEJaDxYmirpQCgiBtj KWj7kZTPjPpyTXmRLrDZ9Sg= =uxCv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD-- From janina@opera.rednote.net Sat Jun 10 12:22:02 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 732FA3B0237; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 12:22:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14037-10; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 12:22:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (opera.rednote.net [70.84.142.212]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAC243B00F8; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 12:22:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5AGLvPF026152; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 16:21:57 GMT Received: (from janina@localhost) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k5AGLsVu026151; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 12:21:54 -0400 Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 12:21:54 -0400 From: Janina Sajka To: Orca screen reader developers Message-ID: <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Operating-System: Linux opera.rednote.net 2.6.16-1.2122_FC5spksmp Organization: Capital Accessibility LLC (http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com) X-PGP-Key: http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com/JaninaSajka_gpg_key.html X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.276 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.277, BAYES_50=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.276 X-Spam-Level: Cc: blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, speakup@braille.uwo.ca, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 16:22:02 -0000 Mike Pedersen writes: > We have been informed, however, that there can be only one screen > reader/magnifier in the GNOME desktop. > That's a rather outrageous attitude. Who made that decision? Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application? The day may come when there is but one screen reader on the GUI desktop, but I rather doubt it given that both Gnome and KDE are likely to remain with us. However, to proactively restrict inclusion while all manner of other (sometimes only half-baked) applications are included rankles. Frankly, it's an insult. This kind of grudging support for accessibility needs to be stopped right now. In fact, it's a stretch to even call it "support." Do these deciders wonder that people in Massachusetts got so upset last year over the simple move to an open file format. Given this kind of attitude, they'll never change their minds Always remember that just proclaiming, "we support accessibility," doesn't make it so. We will not judge by published proclamations but rather by deeds. -- Janina Sajka Phone: +1.240.715.1272 Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC http://CapitalAccessibility.Com Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada--Go to http://ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more. Chair, Accessibility Workgroup Free Standards Group (FSG) janina@freestandards.org http://a11y.org From henrik@ubuntu.com Sat Jun 10 15:04:59 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F0473B022A; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:04:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21539-04; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:04:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 114EF3B00D0; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:04:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.0.10] (henrik.gotadsl.co.uk [82.133.122.11]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F102339074; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 20:00:56 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 20:01:00 +0100 From: Henrik Nilsen Omma User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060522) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Orca screen reader developers References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> In-Reply-To: <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, speakup@braille.uwo.ca, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:04:59 -0000 Janina Sajka wrote: > Mike Pedersen writes: > >> We have been informed, however, that there can be only one screen >> reader/magnifier in the GNOME desktop. >> >> > That's a rather outrageous attitude. Who made that decision? > > Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media > player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application? > I think you may have misinterpreted this slightly. The idea is that there will only be one official screen reader in Gnome, as there indeed is only one email client (Evolution), one browser (Epiphany), one office suite (gnome office, using abiword and gnumeric). Distributions can, and do, change these defaults and users can install a whole range of options. In Ubuntu we include Firefox instead of Epiphany, OpenOffice instead of Gnome Office, etc. I see no problems with that. Currently we have Gnopernicus installed by default and Orca as an option. For our next release we will likely change that so that Orca becomes the default and Gnopernicus the option. We still package and support a wide range of options beyond that though and we are actively working on several new accessibility tools from scratch. > Frankly, it's an insult. This kind of grudging support for accessibility needs to be stopped right now. In fact, it's a stretch to even call it "support." > This may be true in some areas of the open source world still, that accessibility is an afterthought, but we are working to improve that. An important factor in becoming better at this is learning to collaborate better and work together on common tools. Choice is good in principle, but the price of fragmented effort can be high. Finally, I think you are complaining the wrong audience here (various accessibility lists). All these people are already on your side. If you want to make this complaint it should go to the main developer lists of gnome, redhat, ubuntu, etc. Though that said, I do actually think that gnome is right in their policy on this. Henrik Omma Ubuntu Accessibility Coordinator From aedil@alchar.org Sat Jun 10 15:36:39 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5629C3B0494 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:36:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23108-04 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:36:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from alchar.org (dsl081-071-219.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.71.219]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A24953B03AC for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:36:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 10120 invoked by uid 100); 10 Jun 2006 19:37:54 -0000 Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:37:54 -0400 From: Kris Van Hees To: Henrik Nilsen Omma Message-ID: <20060610193754.GC21840@alchar.org> Mail-Followup-To: Kris Van Hees , Henrik Nilsen Omma , Orca screen reader developers , blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, speakup@braille.uwo.ca, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.395 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, SPF_NEUTRAL=1.069] X-Spam-Score: -1.395 X-Spam-Level: Cc: speakup@braille.uwo.ca, Orca screen reader developers , blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:36:39 -0000 On Sat, Jun 10, 2006 at 08:01:00PM +0100, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > Janina Sajka wrote: > >Mike Pedersen writes: > >>We have been informed, however, that there can be only one screen > >>reader/magnifier in the GNOME desktop. > >> > >That's a rather outrageous attitude. Who made that decision? > > > >Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media > >player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application? > > > I think you may have misinterpreted this slightly. The idea is that > there will only be one official screen reader in Gnome, as there indeed > is only one email client (Evolution), one browser (Epiphany), one office > suite (gnome office, using abiword and gnumeric). Distributions can, and > do, change these defaults and users can install a whole range of options. Not to start a holy war, but a reasonable part of the audience that believes in an alternative to Microsoft Windows also supports the notion of *not* including various other applications and suites. While Gnome is surely not an OS, it seems rather weird (and potentially dangerous) to me to end up with a situation where Gnome has an official screen reader, an official mail client, etc... By including specific official applications and suites in Gnome, you're bound to get into a situation where a large group of people will end up simply sticking to the officially included applications and suites, either by choice (easier) or as mandated by an IT department that takes the "we only run the officially included stuff" approach (all too comon). And in the end... why not simply leave Gnome to be the desktop environment it is, and let users choose what they want? Why does there need to be one official choice, and optional alternatives? I can see where the general public falls for this, and how from a "let's pretend the user is stupid" perspective this can be considered "user-friendly", but I would hope that we (as a special interest group) can express a genuine concern about this type of policy to the powers that be (and that make this type of policy). Kris From janina@opera.rednote.net Sat Jun 10 19:51:16 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B5FA3B018D; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:51:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32643-07; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:51:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (opera.rednote.net [70.84.142.212]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D56C3B00BE; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:51:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5ANnceh017788; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:49:38 GMT Received: (from janina@localhost) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k5ANnb4C017787; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:49:37 -0400 Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:49:37 -0400 From: Janina Sajka To: Henrik Nilsen Omma Message-ID: <20060610234937.GO2259@rednote.net> References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Operating-System: Linux opera.rednote.net 2.6.16-1.2122_FC5spksmp Organization: Capital Accessibility LLC (http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com) X-PGP-Key: http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com/JaninaSajka_gpg_key.html X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.562 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.037, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.562 X-Spam-Level: Cc: speakup@braille.uwo.ca, Orca screen reader developers , blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:51:16 -0000 Henrik Nilsen Omma writes: > Janina Sajka wrote: > >Mike Pedersen writes: > > > >>We have been informed, however, that there can be only one screen > >>reader/magnifier in the GNOME desktop. > >> > >> > >That's a rather outrageous attitude. Who made that decision? > > > >Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media > >player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application? > > > I think you may have misinterpreted this slightly. The idea is that > there will only be one official screen reader in Gnome, as there indeed > is only one email client (Evolution), one browser (Epiphany), one office > suite (gnome office, using abiword and gnumeric). Distributions can, and > do, change these defaults and users can install a whole range of options. > So, it seems I have misunderstood the policy quite thoroughly. I apologize for that. I am not sure the policy of having only one of a kind makes much sense to me, but I certainly do not find discrimination in such a policy when it's even handidly applied across the board. > In Ubuntu we include Firefox instead of Epiphany, OpenOffice instead of > Gnome Office, etc. I see no problems with that. Currently we have > Gnopernicus installed by default and Orca as an option. For our next > release we will likely change that so that Orca becomes the default and > Gnopernicus the option. We still package and support a wide range of > options beyond that though and we are actively working on several new > accessibility tools from scratch. Yes, those are accessibility friendly substitutions, and Ubuntu is to be commended for this. > >Frankly, it's an insult. This kind of grudging support for accessibility > >needs to be stopped right now. In fact, it's a stretch to even call it > >"support." > > > This may be true in some areas of the open source world still, that > accessibility is an afterthought, but we are working to improve that. An > important factor in becoming better at this is learning to collaborate > better and work together on common tools. Choice is good in principle, > but the price of fragmented effort can be high. Indeed so, especially in edge cases such as AT apps On the other hand AT on the Linux GUI is still fairly new, and what approaches will prove truly successful for the user is still to be seen.. We certainly do need to work on cooperation and collaboration, but I suspect we're stronger if we support the option for alternative approaches. I suspect, for instance, that accessibility on the desktop is enhanced because KDE and Gnome were able to agree on the same messaging SPI, while continuing to remain autonomous and distinctive desktops. > > Finally, I think you are complaining the wrong audience here (various > accessibility lists). All these people are already on your side. If you > want to make this complaint it should go to the main developer lists of > gnome, redhat, ubuntu, etc. Though that said, I do actually think that > gnome is right in their policy on this. While I apologize for seeing injustice where there clearly isn't any, I still remain unconvinced that an "only one of a kind" policy is the smarter policy. Different issue, of course. Janina > > Henrik Omma > Ubuntu Accessibility Coordinator > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list -- Janina Sajka Phone: +1.240.715.1272 Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC http://CapitalAccessibility.Com Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada--Go to http://ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more. Chair, Accessibility Workgroup Free Standards Group (FSG) janina@freestandards.org http://a11y.org From janina@opera.rednote.net Sat Jun 10 19:59:29 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C29053B02E3; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:59:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00741-06; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:59:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (opera.rednote.net [70.84.142.212]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED43C3B01AE; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:59:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5ANwDVd017891; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:58:13 GMT Received: (from janina@localhost) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k5ANwAA3017890; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:58:10 -0400 Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:58:10 -0400 From: Janina Sajka To: Kris Van Hees , Henrik Nilsen Omma , Orca screen reader developers , blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, speakup@braille.uwo.ca, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060610235810.GP2259@rednote.net> References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> <20060610193754.GC21840@alchar.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060610193754.GC21840@alchar.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Operating-System: Linux opera.rednote.net 2.6.16-1.2122_FC5spksmp Organization: Capital Accessibility LLC (http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com) X-PGP-Key: http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com/JaninaSajka_gpg_key.html X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.565 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.034, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.565 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:59:30 -0000 Thanks, Kris, for getting at the real issue that I missed. I must indeed agree with you. I, for one, am glad that there are dozens of sopas at the store, and several airlines to fly across the Atlantic. I understand it's harder to support choice in distributions and desktops, but I believe it's essential so to do, if for no other reason than it makes us think harder to get the important things right. It's not important that we all use the same email client, for instance, but it is important that we can read email from anyone. I believe the latter is at risk when we allow ourselves the ease of the former. Janina Kris Van Hees writes: > On Sat, Jun 10, 2006 at 08:01:00PM +0100, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > > Janina Sajka wrote: > > >Mike Pedersen writes: > > >>We have been informed, however, that there can be only one screen > > >>reader/magnifier in the GNOME desktop. > > >> > > >That's a rather outrageous attitude. Who made that decision? > > > > > >Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media > > >player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application? > > > > > I think you may have misinterpreted this slightly. The idea is that > > there will only be one official screen reader in Gnome, as there indeed > > is only one email client (Evolution), one browser (Epiphany), one office > > suite (gnome office, using abiword and gnumeric). Distributions can, and > > do, change these defaults and users can install a whole range of options. > > Not to start a holy war, but a reasonable part of the audience that believes in > an alternative to Microsoft Windows also supports the notion of *not* including > various other applications and suites. While Gnome is surely not an OS, it > seems rather weird (and potentially dangerous) to me to end up with a situation > where Gnome has an official screen reader, an official mail client, etc... > By including specific official applications and suites in Gnome, you're bound > to get into a situation where a large group of people will end up simply > sticking to the officially included applications and suites, either by choice > (easier) or as mandated by an IT department that takes the "we only run the > officially included stuff" approach (all too comon). > > And in the end... why not simply leave Gnome to be the desktop environment it > is, and let users choose what they want? Why does there need to be one > official choice, and optional alternatives? I can see where the general public > falls for this, and how from a "let's pretend the user is stupid" perspective > this can be considered "user-friendly", but I would hope that we (as a special > interest group) can express a genuine concern about this type of policy to > the powers that be (and that make this type of policy). > > Kris > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list -- Janina Sajka Phone: +1.240.715.1272 Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC http://CapitalAccessibility.Com Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada--Go to http://ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more. Chair, Accessibility Workgroup Free Standards Group (FSG) janina@freestandards.org http://a11y.org From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Sat Jun 10 20:41:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 176D53B0333; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 20:41:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01799-06; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 20:41:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E8193B000B; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 20:41:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5B0eQlh002102; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:40:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0O00301724OH00@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM); Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.23.100] by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0O00MYQ77DT140@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:40:23 -0700 From: Peter Korn In-reply-to: <20060610193754.GC21840@alchar.org> Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: Kris Van Hees , Henrik Nilsen Omma , Orca screen reader developers , blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, speakup@braille.uwo.ca, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-id: <448B6677.2010400@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> <20060610193754.GC21840@alchar.org> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.532 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.066, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.532 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:41:51 -0000 Greetings, To toss my $0.02 into this discussion... It has proven very useful to the GNOME accessibility project - and to advancing the support for assistive technologies and the implementation of ATK and AT-SPI - to have a screen reader, screen magnifier, and on-screen keyboard included as a formal part of GNOME. By 'blessing' AT in these categories, it has brought far greater awareness of AT to GNOME developers & UNIX distributions, and has led to a lot of compatibility testing, bug finding, and bug fixing. Given that it is general GNOME policy to make one product in any given category the 'default' product that a formal part of the GNOME desktop, I am personally delighted that they have chosen to create such a category for screen reader, screen magnifier, on-screen keyboard, and text-input alternative (Dasher). Regards, Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. > On Sat, Jun 10, 2006 at 08:01:00PM +0100, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > >> Janina Sajka wrote: >> >>> Mike Pedersen writes: >>> >>>> We have been informed, however, that there can be only one screen >>>> reader/magnifier in the GNOME desktop. >>>> >>>> >>> That's a rather outrageous attitude. Who made that decision? >>> >>> Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media >>> player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application? >>> >>> >> I think you may have misinterpreted this slightly. The idea is that >> there will only be one official screen reader in Gnome, as there indeed >> is only one email client (Evolution), one browser (Epiphany), one office >> suite (gnome office, using abiword and gnumeric). Distributions can, and >> do, change these defaults and users can install a whole range of options. >> > > Not to start a holy war, but a reasonable part of the audience that believes in > an alternative to Microsoft Windows also supports the notion of *not* including > various other applications and suites. While Gnome is surely not an OS, it > seems rather weird (and potentially dangerous) to me to end up with a situation > where Gnome has an official screen reader, an official mail client, etc... > By including specific official applications and suites in Gnome, you're bound > to get into a situation where a large group of people will end up simply > sticking to the officially included applications and suites, either by choice > (easier) or as mandated by an IT department that takes the "we only run the > officially included stuff" approach (all too comon). > > And in the end... why not simply leave Gnome to be the desktop environment it > is, and let users choose what they want? Why does there need to be one > official choice, and optional alternatives? I can see where the general public > falls for this, and how from a "let's pretend the user is stupid" perspective > this can be considered "user-friendly", but I would hope that we (as a special > interest group) can express a genuine concern about this type of policy to > the powers that be (and that make this type of policy). > > Kris > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > From j.schmude@gmail.com Sat Jun 10 22:51:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23ED53B05B3 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 22:51:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06037-02 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 22:51:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.202]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE23C3B0588 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 22:51:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id x7so970474nzc for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:50:26 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:content-type:to:from:subject:date:x-mailer; b=FkqiqwKYV6jqK72JUrYg6R4e7hAicwZR5NrV2Ya/FTkAp+FAActyboT3lmnBTCnhOO8zyQRZQqb0J0UP6tn8AxcJBBUNVRInZ90Hy9BvWFsvwF37FNONyt7PwEuLcs3TOK+3uGZ/mAdzwmuvbgn8mb1ql7peqrgAsgKNgjZAhjs= Received: by 10.36.215.18 with SMTP id n18mr6512883nzg; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.0.11? ( [70.162.106.212]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 37sm786308nzf.2006.06.10.19.21.46; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <4E366E31-2C86-4DB3-AEC7-99660ACF8047@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org (Gnome accessibility ) From: Jacob Schmude Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:27:49 -0700 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Orca and 3rd party Emacspeak Servers X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 02:51:03 -0000 Hi everyone I thought I'd try the emacspeak server support in Orca to see if it would use my doubletalk LT synth. However, Orca only lists the speech servers that come standard with Emacspeak. The emacspeak-ss package add support for many more synthesizers than simply dectalk varients. Is there a way to get these listed in Orca as well or, failing that, have perhaps an "other" option in the list that would allow me to enter a different speech server? I'm going to play with it a bit, maybe I can edit the settings file to make it run anyway. Thanks From dmehler26@woh.rr.com Sun Jun 11 00:12:17 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DC9E3B03FB for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:12:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09104-04 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:12:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ms-smtp-03.ohiordc.rr.com (ms-smtp-03.ohiordc.rr.com [65.24.5.137]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B9C33B00A6 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:12:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from satellite (cpe-65-31-41-159.woh.res.rr.com [65.31.41.159]) by ms-smtp-03.ohiordc.rr.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id k5B3QTul013111 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:26:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <00af01c68d05$29efeba0$0200a8c0@satellite> From: "Dave" To: Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:14:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.069 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=1.069, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001, TW_CV=0.077, TW_DL=0.077, TW_GD=0.077, TW_GT=0.077, TW_LG=0.077, TW_VF=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -1.069 X-Spam-Level: Subject: gnopernicus, java, and access bridge on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Dave List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 04:12:17 -0000 Hello, My name is Dave. I'm a sysadmin with six years Unix experience, FreeBSD and Linux mostly. So far my experience has been with setting up server platforms for FreeBSD for the purposes of this message and not workstations requiring x. A while back when i did it using XFree86 i was unsuccessful. Now i want to replace some Linux fc4 workstations with FreeBSD. I've got xorg configured, gnome starting, and gnopernicus up and running. I'm almost certain i don't have all the accessibility hooks turned on, but i will undoubtedly learn about those as i investigate apps. I want to do as many installs using the FreeBSD ports infrastructure as i feel this would make system upkeep much easier. I'd like access to java apps, using the access bridge. I've installed the jdk 1.5, but when i atempt to compile access bridge i am getting "Error illegal option x" The full output of the compilation atempt is below. If anyone has this working i'd appreciate hearing from you. I'd eventually like to have access to openoffice2 using java as well. Thanks. Dave. compilation: # ./configure checking for a BSD-compatible install... /usr/bin/install -c checking whether build environment is sane... yes checking whether make sets $(MAKE)... yes checking for working aclocal-1.4... missing checking for working autoconf... missing checking for working automake-1.4... missing checking for working autoheader... missing checking for working makeinfo... found checking for java... java checking JDK version... 1.5.0 checking for javac... javac JRE_HOME appears to be /usr/local/bin/jre checking for idlj... idlj checking for jar... jar checking for pkg-config... /usr/local/bin/pkg-config checking for bonobo-activation-2.0 libspi-1.0 >= 1.7.0... yes checking JAVA_BRIDGE_CFLAGS... -DORBIT2=1 -D_REENTRANT -DXTHREADS -DXUSE_MTSAFE_API -I/usr/local/include/bonobo-activation-2.0 -I/usr/local/include/glib-2.0 -I/usr/local/lib/glib-2.0/include -I/usr/local/include/orbit-2.0 -I/usr/local/include/libbonobo-2.0 -I/usr/local/include/atk-1.0 -I/usr/local/include/cairo -I/usr/X11R6/include/at-spi-1.0 -I/usr/X11R6/include/gtk-2.0 -I/usr/X11R6/lib/gtk-2.0/include -I/usr/X11R6/include/pango-1.0 -I/usr/X11R6/include -I/usr/local/include/freetype2 -I/usr/local/include checking JAVA_BRIDGE_LIBS... -pthread -Wl,--rpath -Wl,/usr/local/lib -L/usr/local/lib -L/usr/X11R6/lib -lspi -lbonobo-2 -lgtk-x11-2.0 -lbonobo-activation -lORBit-2 -lgthread-2.0 -lgdk-x11-2.0 -lXrandr -lXi -lXinerama -latk-1.0 -lgdk_pixbuf-2.0 -lpangocairo-1.0 -lXcursor -lXfixes -lcairo -lpangoft2-1.0 -lfontconfig -lfreetype -lz -lpango-1.0 -lm -lXrender -lX11 -lXext -lgobject-2.0 -lgmodule-2.0 -lglib-2.0 -liconv configure: creating ./config.status config.status: creating Makefile config.status: creating idlgen/Makefile config.status: creating idlgen/org/Makefile config.status: creating idlgen/org/GNOME/Makefile config.status: creating idlgen/org/GNOME/Accessibility/Makefile config.status: creating idlgen/org/GNOME/Bonobo/Makefile config.status: creating util/Makefile config.status: creating util/org/Makefile config.status: creating util/org/GNOME/Makefile config.status: creating util/org/GNOME/Accessibility/Makefile config.status: creating impl/Makefile config.status: creating impl/org/Makefile config.status: creating impl/org/GNOME/Makefile config.status: creating impl/org/GNOME/Accessibility/Makefile config.status: creating impl/org/GNOME/Bonobo/Makefile config.status: creating bridge/Makefile config.status: creating bridge/org/Makefile config.status: creating bridge/org/GNOME/Makefile config.status: creating bridge/org/GNOME/Accessibility/Makefile config.status: creating at-client/Makefile config.status: creating at-client/org/Makefile config.status: creating at-client/org/GNOME/Makefile config.status: creating at-client/org/GNOME/Accessibility/Makefile config.status: creating registry/Makefile config.status: creating registry/org/Makefile config.status: creating registry/org/GNOME/Makefile config.status: creating registry/org/GNOME/Accessibility/Makefile config.status: creating test/Makefile [root@titan /usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0]# gmake Making all in idlgen gmake[1]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen' Making all in org gmake[2]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org' Making all in GNOME gmake[3]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME' Making all in Accessibility gmake[4]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Accessibility' gmake[4]: Nothing to be done for `all'. gmake[4]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Accessibility' Making all in Bonobo gmake[4]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Bonobo' gmake[4]: Nothing to be done for `all'. gmake[4]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Bonobo' gmake[4]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME' gmake[4]: Nothing to be done for `all-am'. gmake[4]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME' gmake[3]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME' gmake[3]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org' gmake[3]: Nothing to be done for `all-am'. gmake[3]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org' gmake[2]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org' gmake[2]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen' idlj \ -pkgPrefix Bonobo org.GNOME \ -pkgPrefix Accessibility org.GNOME \ -emitAll -i /usr/local/share/idl/bonobo-activation-2.0 -i /usr/X11R6/share/gnome/idl/at-spi-1.0 -i /usr/local/share/idl/bonobo-2.0 \ -fallTie /usr/X11R6/share/gnome/idl/at-spi-1.0/Accessibility.idl com.sun.tools.corba.se.idl.InvalidArgument: Invalid rgument: -XX:+UseMembar. Compiler Usage: java com.sun.tools.corba.se.idl.toJavaPortable.Compile [options] where is the name of a file containing IDL definitions, and [options] is any combination of the options listed below. The options are optional and may appear in any order; is required and must appear last. Options: -d This is equivalent to the following line in an IDL file: #define -emitAll Emit all types, including those found in #included files. -f Define what bindings to emit. is one of client, server, all, serverTIE, allTIE. serverTIE and allTIE cause delegate model skeletons to be emitted. If this flag is not used, -fclient is assumed. -i By default, the current directory is scanned for included files. This option adds another directory. -keep If a file to be generated already exists, do not overwrite it. By default it is overwritten. -noWarn Suppress warnings. -oldImplBase Generate skeletons compatible with old (pre-1.4) JDK ORBs. -pkgPrefix When the type or module name is encountered at file scope, begin the Java package name for all files generated for with . -pkgTranslate When the type or module name in encountered, replace it with in the generated java package. Note that pkgPrefix changes are made first. must match the full package name exactly. Also, must not be org, org.omg, or any subpackage of org.omg. -skeletonName Name the skeleton according to the pattern. The defaults are: %POA for the POA base class (-fserver or -fall) _%ImplBase for the oldImplBase base class (-oldImplBase and (-fserver or -fall)). -td use for the output directory instead of the current directory. -tieName Name the tie according to the pattern. The defaults are: %POATie for the POA tie (-fserverTie or -fallTie) %_Tie for the oldImplBase tie (-oldImplBase and (-fserverTie or -fallTie)). -v, -verbose Verbose mode. -version Display the version number and quit. gmake[3]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Bonobo' gmake[3]: Nothing to be done for `all'. gmake[3]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Bonobo' gmake[3]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Accessibility' gmake[3]: Nothing to be done for `all'. gmake[3]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Accessibility' touch ../jar-stamp touch ../jar-stamp jar cf ../gnome-java-bridge.jar org/GNOME/Bonobo/*.class org/GNOME/Accessibility/*.class Illegal option: X Usage: jar {ctxu}[vfm0Mi] [jar-file] [manifest-file] [-C dir] files ... Options: -c create new archive -t list table of contents for archive -x extract named (or all) files from archive -u update existing archive -v generate verbose output on standard output -f specify archive file name -m include manifest information from specified manifest file -0 store only; use no ZIP compression -M do not create a manifest file for the entries -i generate index information for the specified jar files -C change to the specified directory and include the following file If any file is a directory then it is processed recursively. The manifest file name and the archive file name needs to be specified in the same order the 'm' and 'f' flags are specified. Example 1: to archive two class files into an archive called classes.jar: jar cvf classes.jar Foo.class Bar.class Example 2: use an existing manifest file 'mymanifest' and archive all the files in the foo/ directory into 'classes.jar': jar cvfm classes.jar mymanifest -C foo/ . gmake[2]: *** [../gnome-java-bridge.jar] Error 1 gmake[2]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen' gmake[1]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1 gmake[1]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen' gmake: *** [all-recursive] Error 1 From henrik@ubuntu.com Sun Jun 11 07:38:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FC053B0641; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 07:38:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07029-08; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 07:38:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17EBD3B0168; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 07:38:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.0.10] (henrik.gotadsl.co.uk [82.133.122.11]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7428339335; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 12:37:30 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <448C007D.9030400@ubuntu.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 12:37:33 +0100 From: Henrik Nilsen Omma User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060522) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Orca screen reader developers References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> <20060610193754.GC21840@alchar.org> <448B6677.2010400@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <448B6677.2010400@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.593 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.006, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.593 X-Spam-Level: Cc: blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, speakup@braille.uwo.ca, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 11:38:41 -0000 Peter Korn wrote: > It has proven very useful to the GNOME accessibility project - and to > advancing the support for assistive technologies and the > implementation of ATK and AT-SPI - to have a screen reader, screen > magnifier, and on-screen keyboard included as a formal part of GNOME. > By 'blessing' AT in these categories, it has brought far greater > awareness of AT to GNOME developers & UNIX distributions, and has led > to a lot of compatibility testing, bug finding, and bug fixing. We have seen the effects of this esp. in the last release cycle when we have now managed to get a range of accessibility tools into the default install and running from the Live CD. Other developers, such as those specialising in the Live CD, the installer and the Gnome desktop have taken an interest and are helping us solve the problems. For our next development cycle we now have several specifications on the main development track (see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Specs) I think custom distributions like Oralux can focus on adding as much assistive technology as possible to a single CD and let the user explore it all. For a main stream distro though, I think we need to make choices about what we consider to be most suitable at this time, and leave the rest as options. Picking favourites is actually an important part of what we do because it allows us to focus our efforts better on providing support and fixes on those packages. - Henrik From William.Walker@Sun.COM Sun Jun 11 19:53:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C98A93B00BC; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 19:53:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09467-02; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 19:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 656553B00B7; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 19:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fe-amer-06.sun.com ([192.18.108.180]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5BNqQ6B020577; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:52:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0P00M01Y1KY900@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from William.Walker@Sun.COM); Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:52:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.1.105] ([68.116.197.173]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0P0097BZN5LTZ1@mail-amer.sun.com>; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:52:26 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 19:52:16 -0400 From: Willie Walker Sender: William.Walker@Sun.COM To: orca-list@gnome.org, gnome-announce-list@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-id: <1150069937.5071.4.camel@localhost> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.587 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.011, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.587 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Announcing Orca 0.2.5 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 23:53:34 -0000 ================ * What is Orca ? ================ Orca is a scriptable screen reader for the GNOME desktop for people with visual impairments. ================== * What's changed ? ================== We've done a lot of work on Orca since the last release in both the new functionality and quality/stability departments. We thank all of our users that are providing feedback on gnome-list@gnome.org (see http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list) as well as http://bugzilla.gnome.org. We value all of your feedback and help. We also appreciate contributions from community members, including Al Puzzuoli who is doing a great job helping with the Orca Wiki at http://live.gnome.org/Orca and Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez who has been testing and providing patches. Thank you all! ================== Orca 0.2.5 Changes ================== * Re-map keyboard bindings and add additional keyboard bindings. See http://live.gnome.org/Orca/KeyboardCommands for the list. * Improvements to StarOffice support to provide better access to text documents and spreadsheets. Also get rid of spurious "0.00" text that was showing up in braille for StarOffice buttons. * Addition of announcing text selection as it is selected and unselected. * Generalize the "read table cell row" functionality. If you press Insert+F11, it will toggle the feature to read the entire row of a table or just the selected table cell when you move from row to row. * Improved support for SayAll of text objects (SayAll for flat review is still on the to do list). * Addition of self-voicing module to tell Orca to be quiet when a self-voicing application is present. * Addition of ability to turn Orca into a speech server that can accessed via simple HTTP commands (default port is 20433, but this is customizable via orca.settings.speechServerPort). This will allow self-voicing applications to use Orca for their speech, thus letting them get the user's speech settings preferences. * Addition of orca.settings.enableBrailleGrouping (default=False). NOTE: this represents a change in the UI for Orca - the behavior to date has been to always group menu items on the braille display. The system responsiveness was bad for large menus, however, so we decided to make this an optional feature turned off by default. * Addition of utility to report information on the currently active script. This is primarily for helping script writers do debugging and is accessed by pressing Insert+F3. * Addition of orca.settings.cacheAccessibles (default=True) as a means to turn the local caching of accessible objects on or off. This is primarily an Orca developer debugging feature. * Fix for bug 344218 - gnome-terminal would not be presented properly if it was started after Orca. * Fix for bug 343666: pressing buttons on braille displays could cause a hang. * Partial fix for bug 342022 - provide some defensive mechanisms to help prevent some hangs. * Fix for bug 343133 - do not hang when doing a flat-review of a man page in gnome-terminal. * Fix for bug #343013 - the command line option strings should not be translatable. * Partial fix for bug 319652 - become a better Python thread citizen to help reduce hangs. * Fix for bug 342303 - stop speech when the user presses the mouse button. * Fix for bug 342122 - use all labels for an objecty when presenting an object. * Fix for bug 342133 - do not read all labels in gnome-window-properties application when it appears. * Fix for bug 341415 - when moving between workspaces with metacity, eliminate redundant output and alsomake sure workspace names are announced. * Refactor of various modules to move script writing utilities into util.py. * More fleshing out of the test plan. ====================== * Where can I get it ? ====================== Source code: http://ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/sources/orca/0.2/orca-0.2.5.tar.gz Enjoy. Will, Mike, Rich, Lynn, and the Orca community From rd@baum.ro Mon Jun 12 04:21:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B89BD3B00EC for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 04:21:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26018-07 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 04:21:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from main.baum.ro (dnt-gw-baum.dnttm.ro [83.103.190.186]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E47273B00D4 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 04:21:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.0.104] ([82.77.32.51]) by main.baum.ro (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5C7d8Yc010617; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 10:39:08 +0300 From: remus draica To: Dave In-Reply-To: <00af01c68d05$29efeba0$0200a8c0@satellite> References: <00af01c68d05$29efeba0$0200a8c0@satellite> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:20:40 -0400 Message-Id: <1150125641.4877.19.camel@ubuntu> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.573 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.854, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_FUTURE_06_12=1.668, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, TW_DL=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -1.573 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: gnopernicus, java, and access bridge on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 08:21:40 -0000 Hi, > checking for java... java > checking JDK version... 1.5.0 > checking for javac... javac > JRE_HOME appears to be /usr/local/bin/jre > checking for idlj... idlj > checking for jar... jar Because you have installed a new java version, is possible to have 2 versions. so, check if all files above are from same distribution, or run ./configure --with-java-home=/path to jdk Regards, Remus From tward1978@earthlink.net Mon Jun 12 15:30:53 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 912973B0100 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:30:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27449-05 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:30:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-gadwall.atl.sa.earthlink.net (pop-gadwall.atl.sa.earthlink.net [207.69.195.61]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB3063B0010 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:30:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dialup-4.224.186.21.dial1.cincinnati1.level3.net ([4.224.186.21]) by pop-gadwall.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1Fps6b-0002fm-00; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:29:45 -0400 Message-ID: <448DC0AE.3030302@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:29:50 -0400 From: Thomas Ward User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave References: <00af01c68d05$29efeba0$0200a8c0@satellite> In-Reply-To: <00af01c68d05$29efeba0$0200a8c0@satellite> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.943 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.456] X-Spam-Score: -0.943 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: gnopernicus, java, and access bridge on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 19:30:53 -0000 Hello, Dave. Gnome has three different areas of access which can be turned on or off depending on the level of accessibility you are aiming for. The first is controled by gconf. When you answer yes to accessibility when gnopernicus first loads the following key is set to true gconftool-2 --set "/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility" --type boolean "True") I haven't tested this lately, but if you type that key in to a standard bash shell prompt it would equal answering yes to the do you want access turned on when gnopernicus starts. The second flag which you can set turns the atk-bridge on for apps such as gaim which won't work without it. To turn the atk-bridge on add this line to the end of your home .bash_profile. export GTK_MODULES=gail:atk-bridge Assuming you have java access bridge installed, which I know you don't at this time, you can create a .orbitrc file in your home directory with gedit, nano, or another favorite text editor and add the following line. ORBIIOPIPv4=1 I'm not sure if you still need this as it has been a while since I did an update on everything, but to work with open office you needed to set SAL_ACCESSIBILITY_ENABLED=1 to get full access to OpenOffice.org. Hope this helps. From lists@digitaldarragh.com Tue Jun 13 04:23:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03BC73B000C for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 04:23:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15398-07 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 04:23:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.webhost.ie (mail.webhost.ie [83.138.8.74]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B51923B000A for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 04:23:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by mail.webhost.ie (Merak 8.3.8) with SMTP id ROJ35911 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:22:11 +0100 Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:22:11 +0100 From: Darragh To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <58fe54a1f8137f5466e7e91769d78df1@digitaldarragh.com> X-Mailer: IceWarp Web Mail 5.6.1 X-Originating-IP: 82.1.217.193 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.62 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.880, BAYES_20=-0.74] X-Spam-Score: -1.62 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Orca or Gnopernicus on a distro like Slax? X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 08:23:12 -0000 Hello all, I know slax uses KDE as its default window manager but do any of you know of another distro that works from a usb drive with the latest version of Gnome that will allow me to install Orca or Gnopernicus? Thanks Darragh Ó Héiligh Web development, O/S and Application technical support. Website: http://www.digitaldarragh.com From enrico@enricozini.org Tue Jun 13 17:50:15 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 104BB3B03CF for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:50:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07729-05 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:50:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agnus.ngi.it (agnus.ngi.it [88.149.128.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 917753B00C4 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:50:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eddie.casa (81-174-12-206.f5.ngi.it [81.174.12.206]) by agnus.ngi.it (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5DLllUw007997; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:47:48 +0200 Received: from eddie.casa (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eddie.casa (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A91230011E; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:47:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from marvin.casa (marvin.casa [192.168.1.2]) by eddie.casa (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F53430011D; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:47:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from enrico by marvin.casa with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1FqGjk-0002Ze-00; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:47:48 +0200 Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:47:47 +0200 From: Enrico Zini To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060613214747.GA4897@marvin.casa> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com References: <20060610092255.GA9803@marvin.casa> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060610092255.GA9803@marvin.casa> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060403 Sender: Enrico Zini X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.446 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.446 X-Spam-Level: Cc: ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Re: Fixing brittle speech support on Dapper X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 21:50:15 -0000 --ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline On Sat, Jun 10, 2006 at 11:22:55AM +0200, Enrico Zini wrote: > - speech doesn't work anymore. test-speech exits with: > Exception Unknown CORBA exception id: 'IDL:omg.org/CORBA/COMM_FAILURE:1.0' getting voice list. I've been waiting but sadly noone answered so far. I tried reinstalling from scratch in another computer, and I can trivially reproduce the speech server lockup there as well: 1) Fresh Ubuntu Dapper, apt-get install festlex-ifd festvox-italp16k festvox-itapc16k (from universe) 2) go to gnopernicus Preferences/Speech/Voices/Modify absolute values 3) choose "Festival GNOME Speech Driver" as a driver, "V2 lp_diphone" as the voice. Apply setting for all voices. 4) close the window. The voice stops. test-speech hangs after selecting the festival server. Please help me to find some clues on fixing this: it took us years to get GPL Festival voices for Italian, and now we could easily turn them into an accessible localised desktop, if it weren't for this. Ciao, Enrico -- GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini --ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEjzKD9LSwzHl+v6sRAuVyAJwI3dqpDwnrS8qq/ABGqUJdsmgJ5gCff+/n q3ZtW+3tVh14q1n0aG0Yv4U= =6lsv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q-- From ermengol@gmail.com Tue Jun 13 19:28:37 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 962923B021A for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 19:28:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09625-09 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 19:28:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.187]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D88D83B01C5 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 19:28:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id y38so1070382nfb for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 16:27:04 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=XgBruegOpLZfMFjVd1bPz7yhVNs2CnoRcO+dGHnDzPiAvdXBFd2k/1e+WEfiVvy0xfFcU9Hv2NP59uG70HF+eibs6v8uIl7c00uqcwS8i1AdUwQxnYqqmuVQR2e9xmGoF7pTOYlpYkfeD0r45ZHY9rsNBDc0CMZCXDZEvXBn9Hg= Received: by 10.49.68.20 with SMTP id v20mr7621nfk; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 16:27:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.48.208.11 with HTTP; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 16:27:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 01:27:04 +0200 From: "Ermengol Bota" To: "Peter Korn" In-Reply-To: <448911DC.4090607@sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <448911DC.4090607@sun.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: gnopernicus-magnifier. Full screen magnifier with dummy driver X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:28:37 -0000 2006/6/9, Peter Korn : > This is a problem with our current magnification architecture. We are > looking forward to magnifiers that are based on several X extensions - > most especially the COMPOSITE extension - which will allow us to avoid > this bit of hackery. Unfortunately we aren't quite ready with those yet. Thanks for all the answers. I know (i just read its web) that Composite does (will do?) more things, not only full screen magnifier, but at least on suse based distro's there is a modifier for xorg that enables to add "virtual resolution". So, you can define the screen resolution (1024x768) and then the virtual resolution 1600x1200 (the resolution for the desktop). This way it works like full screen magnifier. I've done it with SaX2 application (YaST2), but it just adds a new entry " Virtual 1600 1200" on each subsection "Display" of section "Screen" The differences i've seen so far are mainly all the functionalities that gnome-mag can do: change cursor, change the way screen move.... But may be it's an easier way to magnify the screen :-) Thanks for all -- * Ermengol * /*********************************************** * Els ordinadors no resolen problemes, * * simplement executen solucions. * ************************************************/ From themuso@themuso.com Wed Jun 14 09:44:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 189183B00FA; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 09:44:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23247-06; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 09:44:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vscan03.westnet.com.au (vscan03.westnet.com.au [203.10.1.142]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE6883B0133; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 09:44:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70444B60BFC; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 21:43:27 +0800 (WST) Received: from vscan03.westnet.com.au ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (vscan03.westnet.com.au [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04093-05; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 21:43:27 +0800 (WST) Received: from themuso.com (dsl-202-173-132-131.nsw.westnet.com.au [202.173.132.131]) by vscan03.westnet.com.au (Postfix) with SMTP id E0F6AB60BCC; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 21:43:26 +0800 (WST) Received: (nullmailer pid 26322 invoked by uid 1000); Wed, 14 Jun 2006 13:43:40 -0000 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 23:43:40 +1000 To: Gnome Accessibility List , Orca screen reader developers , Ubuntu Accessibility Mailing List Subject: Orca 0.2.5, and LSR 0.2.1 packages available. Message-ID: <20060614134340.GA26307@themuso.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 From: Luke Yelavich X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.415 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.049, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.415 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 13:44:36 -0000 --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all I am happy to announce that packages for both LSR 0.2.1, and orca 0.2.5=20 are available for Ubuntu dapper. To use them, put the following line in=20 your /etc/apt/sources.list file deb http://www.themuso.com/ubuntu/accessibility dapper universe Then run sudo apt-get update, and sudo apt-get install gnome-orca or lsr=20 depending on which package you want. Packages exist for both i386 and powerpc. If people want amd64 packages,=20 if you could possibly give me access to an amd64 box, I would be happy=20 to get them built and make them available. You can also access the source packages, should you want to know how=20 they are built. Add the following line to /etc/apt/sources.list deb-src http://www.themuso.com/ubuntu/accessibility dapper universe Enjoy! --=20 Luke Yelavich GPG key: 0xD06320CE=20 (http://www.themuso.com/themuso-gpg-key.txt) Email & MSN: themuso@themuso.com ICQ: 18444344 Jabber: themuso@jabber.org.au --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEkBKMjVefwtBjIM4RAl8WAJ98WHZSVlRtkZDRTRHmoFHg+xOmoACdFdmN 3VXNeYNIFaN6NUgtvG0epkQ= =bj1o -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o-- From janina@opera.rednote.net Wed Jun 14 12:17:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08CF33B0156; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:17:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28336-10; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:17:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (opera.rednote.net [70.84.142.212]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2375F3B03DA; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:17:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5EGH5iU007764; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 16:17:05 GMT Received: (from janina@localhost) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k5EGH5N6007763; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:17:05 -0400 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:17:05 -0400 From: Janina Sajka To: Willie Walker Subject: Re: Announcing Orca 0.2.5 rpms Message-ID: <20060614161705.GW2259@rednote.net> References: <1150069937.5071.4.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1150069937.5071.4.camel@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Operating-System: Linux opera.rednote.net 2.6.16-1.2122_FC5spksmp Organization: Capital Accessibility LLC (http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com) X-PGP-Key: http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com/JaninaSajka_gpg_key.html X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.569 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.030, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.569 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-announce-list@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, orca-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 16:17:56 -0000 rpm packages of Orca-0.2.5 for Fedora Core 5 are now available from: ftp://SpeakupModified.Org/fedora/rednote/ The binary is under RPMS, and the source under SRPMS as usual with Fedora. Installation There is yet some unresolved dependency issue with these rpms, so they probably will need to be installed using the --nodeps option as follows: rpm -Uv --nodeps orca-0.2.5-1.i386.rpm However, I can attest the resulting installation works for me on two different systems. I have first run: orca -t from the console, as the same user I am in the gui desktop. Once on the desktop, I have issued Alt-F2 and typed: orca -t again to get things started. Seems wrong, but is working for me on two systems. Special Note: You may need to upgrade your Gnome Desktop to Fedora Development. If you find things not working with the current release and updated Gnome environment, try: yum --disablerepo='*' --enablerepo=development groupupdate 'GNOME Desktop Environment' Note the above command is issued on one line, though it's probably been broken into at least two lines in this email message. -- Janina Sajka Phone: +1.240.715.1272 Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC http://CapitalAccessibility.Com Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada--Go to http://ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more. Chair, Accessibility Workgroup Free Standards Group (FSG) janina@freestandards.org http://a11y.org From aaronleventhal@moonset.net Wed Jun 14 11:07:53 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBFD43B0156 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:07:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01652-09 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:07:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.lnh.mail.rcn.net (smtp01.lnh.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 191C33B0120 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:07:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 207-180-148-92.c3-0.arl-ubr2.sbo-arl.ma.cable.rcn.com (HELO [192.168.0.6]) ([207.180.148.92]) by smtp01.lnh.mail.rcn.net with ESMTP; 14 Jun 2006 11:08:29 -0400 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.06,132,1149480000"; d="scan'208"; a="222292815:sNHT26602784" Message-ID: <4490260C.6030606@moonset.net> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:06:52 -0400 From: Aaron Leventhal User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: mozilla.dev.accessibility Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Major rewrite will break trunk temporarily Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 03:15:26 -0400 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 15:07:54 -0000 Work is progressing on https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=340829 This is a major rewrite which will remove nsAccessibleText, nsAcessibleEditableText and nsAccessibleHyperText classes, and move that code into a new cross platform class called nsHyperTextAccessible. Please be informed that when this goes in, it will take about a month for the trunk to stabilize. This does not affect the MOZILLA_1_8 branch which is being used to develop Firefox 2. This rewrite will ultimately find its way into Firefox 3 due out in 2007. When the smoke clears, we will have something very close to this: http://www.mozilla.org/access/unix/new-atk - Aaron From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Wed Jun 21 08:16:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 609D73B0F9B for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:16:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03164-08 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:16:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.186]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80AAF3B0D58 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:16:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id h2so80984nfe for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.34.19 with SMTP id m19mr514346nfj; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.30.13 with HTTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:16:15 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" Sender: skating.tortoise@gmail.com To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, ubuntu-accessibility Subject: Slow keys dialog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Google-Sender-Auth: 7fa2bf341aa83a4f X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.361 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.239, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.361 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:16:18 -0000 I've implemented sticky keys in my onscreen keyboard. When shift is stuck down it causes the slow keys dialogue to appear. Is there a way to suppress this dialog whilst my app is running? thanks -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From bmustillrose@gmail.com Wed Jun 21 08:48:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C35B3B0FF1 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:48:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05586-09 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:48:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.189]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07BC83B0F9B for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:48:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id h2so84606nfe for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:48:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.81.12 with SMTP id i12mr543988nfl; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:48:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.48.42.2 with HTTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:48:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4285e65e0606210548m58845a3el9847e55d8d3f64b5@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:48:41 +0100 From: "ben mustill-rose" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Gnopernicus Not talking on ubuntu 6.06 desktop MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:48:52 -0000 Hi. I installed ubuntu 6.06 desktop on a laptop some time ago and with that i downloaded speech since i'm blind. The thing is, half the time when i log in, it doesn't talk. To fix this, i will have to restart the computer again and again. There doesn't seem to be any patton regarding how many times i have to restart, which is kinda annoying. When it does start talking, its to slow, is there a hotkey to change the speech? And lastly, is there anything that i should kno if i am moving from hal to gnopernicus? Any help would be great, i'm new to linux so i dunno if i gave all the right info, but if not, just ask. KR, BEN. From javier@tiflolinux.org Wed Jun 21 14:16:58 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD2ED3B009F for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:16:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27974-05 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:16:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tiflolinux.org (unknown [82.158.40.139]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 191AA3B0095 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:16:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (uid 503) by tiflolinux.org with local; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 20:29:33 +0200 id 0009B56D.4499900D.00000432 Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 20:29:33 +0200 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Fco=2E_Javier_Dorado_Mart=EDnez?=" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Gnopernicus Not talking on ubuntu 6.06 desktop] Message-ID: <20060621182933.GB30626@tiflolinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Operating-System: Linux tiflolinux.org 2.4.20-8 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.603 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.051, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_NJABL_DUL=1.946] X-Spam-Score: -0.603 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 18:16:58 -0000 ----- Forwarded message from "Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez" ----- Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 20:27:51 +0200 From: "Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez" To: ben mustill-rose Subject: Re: Gnopernicus Not talking on ubuntu 6.06 desktop User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i Hi all Ben, the problem with Gnopernicus not speaking at startup is a question of the sound system, not availability on sound system when Gnopernicus start, so speech is disabled. You can quit gnopernicus by presing alt + q and then restaring it again by pressing alt + f2 and then typing gnopernicus plus enter key. I don't know Hal, so I can give you ore detail about differents. You can change speech settings by pressing 0 + 8 in the numeric keypad, so you can hear "layer 8" and then use 4 and 6 numeric keypad to decrease/increase speech rate, 7 and 9 for volume and 1 or 3 for pitch. All the functionality of Gnopernicus screen reader is based on the numeric keypad, and based in layers. So you have 10 layers with differents functions. Press 00 for layer 0, 01 for layer 1 and so. Hope this help Regards, Javier. On Wed, Jun 21, 2006 at 01:48:41PM +0100, ben mustill-rose wrote: > Hi. > > I installed ubuntu 6.06 desktop on a laptop some time ago and with > that i downloaded speech since i'm blind. > The thing is, half the time when i log in, it doesn't talk. To fix > this, i will have to restart the computer again and again. > There doesn't seem to be any patton regarding how many times i have to > restart, which is kinda annoying. > When it does start talking, its to slow, is there a hotkey to change the speech? > And lastly, is there anything that i should kno if i am moving from > hal to gnopernicus? > Any help would be great, i'm new to linux so i dunno if i gave all the > right info, but if not, just ask. > KR, BEN. > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list -- Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez mailto:javier@tiflolinux.org ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez mailto:javier@tiflolinux.org From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Fri Jun 23 10:54:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22CE23B087B for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 10:54:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18849-01 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 10:54:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.187]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B02B03B08E6 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 10:54:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id h2so91379nfe for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 07:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.4.17 with SMTP id g17mr2514299nfi; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 07:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.30.13 with HTTP; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 07:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 15:54:14 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" Sender: skating.tortoise@gmail.com To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, ubuntu-accessibility Subject: Re: Slow keys dialog In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: X-Google-Sender-Auth: f682d046db45120e X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.446 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.154, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.446 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 14:54:18 -0000 I've implemented sticky keys in my onscreen keyboard. When shift is stuck down it causes the slow keys dialogue to appear. Is there a way to suppress this dialog whilst my app is running? thanks -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Fri Jun 23 11:07:43 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4C2D3B0321 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 11:07:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19442-07 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 11:07:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.185]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B36483B08E6 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 11:07:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id h2so93351nfe for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 08:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.4.17 with SMTP id g17mr2523841nfi; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 08:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.30.13 with HTTP; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 08:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 16:07:39 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, ubuntu-accessibility Subject: Re: Slow keys dialog In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 15:07:43 -0000 I've implemented sticky keys in my onscreen keyboard. When shift is stuck down it causes the slow keys dialogue to appear. Is there a way to suppress this dialog whilst my app is running? thanks -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From enrico@enricozini.org Sat Jun 24 07:13:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F0053B02C1; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 07:13:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09160-07; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 07:13:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from maya.ngi.it (maya.ngi.it [88.149.128.3]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45FC13B006E; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 07:13:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (81-174-12-206.f5.ngi.it [81.174.12.206]) by maya.ngi.it (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5OBDf7s005708; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 13:13:41 +0200 Received: from enrico by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1Fu64i-0006Mo-Ds; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 12:13:16 +0100 Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 12:13:16 +0100 From: Enrico Zini To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org Subject: Fixing gnome-speech Message-ID: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ibTvN161/egqYuK8" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060403 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.014, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 11:13:47 -0000 --ibTvN161/egqYuK8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, I'm trying to look more into the problems I'm having with the speech support on Dapper (see my mail with subject "Fixing brittle speech support on Dapper" from June, 10th, which strangely isn't showing up in the archives at http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-accessibility-list/200= 6-June/thread.html). I started reading through gnome-speech source code. I noticed that it runs festival as a server and talks to it. This makes us have a screen reader that talks CORBA to a server that talks TCP/IP to another server who then does the synthesis. That's too many passages in which something can go wrong. Instinctively, I'm considering rewriting the festival driver to using the C API rather than the festival server. The C API of Festival is just as simple as this: http://rafb.net/paste/results/I7trk068.html I'll look into it a bit more, writing some test code to talk to the CORBA festival driver as well as test code for the festival C/C++ API, so that I can gain familiarity with both things. Any reasons why this hasn't been done yet? In the meantime, however, before I hurt my brain too much with this, what's the overall situation? Is it worth the effort of fixing gnome-speech, or is the effort better spend on making something else work? I'm already quite frustrated of not getting any sort of answer on the list for this problem that is getting me totally stuck (and thank Luke Yelavich for mora support on IRC), and I don't know how I would cope if I spent time and effort on this just to hear as soon as I've finished that everyone's moving to speech-dispatcher or some other kind of a totally different technology. If it's not worth spending efforts on gnome-speech, please let me know what I can use to replace it, since it doesn't work for me. Ciao, Enrico --=20 GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini --ibTvN161/egqYuK8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEnR5M9LSwzHl+v6sRAvfXAJ96YsbY8wqms77UDb9GCEEkTBctXgCdHWgz kdeLwfWldHDFD8gNgZRK8LU= =0xvb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ibTvN161/egqYuK8-- From javier@tiflolinux.org Sat Jun 24 16:21:09 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E13E43B00A5 for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 16:21:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01623-02 for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 16:21:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tiflolinux.org (unknown [82.158.40.139]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FC433B006E for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 16:21:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (uid 503) by tiflolinux.org with local; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 22:32:16 +0200 id 0004BEAB.449DA150.0000373E Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 22:32:16 +0200 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Fco=2E_Javier_Dorado_Mart=EDnez?=" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Gnopernicus Not talking on ubuntu 6.06 desktop]] Message-ID: <20060624203216.GB14113@tiflolinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Operating-System: Linux tiflolinux.org 2.4.20-8 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.608 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.045, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_NJABL_DUL=1.946] X-Spam-Score: -0.608 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 20:21:09 -0000 ----- Forwarded message from "Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez" ----- Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 22:30:11 +0200 From: "Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez" To: ben mustill-rose Subject: Re: Gnopernicus Not talking on ubuntu 6.06 desktop] User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i Hi all To avoid gnome-panel crashes first open a terminal by running gnome-terminal at the run dialog (alt + f2). Then type gnopernicus& Then no problems with the panel. Regards, Javier. On Sat, Jun 24, 2006 at 08:39:31PM +0100, ben mustill-rose wrote: > Hi all and sorry for not replying sooner. > > I tried the thing where you type gnopernicus into the run type box, > and that does make it talk, but only to say that there is a error with > gnome panel. > I clicked inform developers, but i dunno if it did it, because it > stopped talking. > It also stops talking when i click restart program or close. > I am doing a re install of ubuntu atm, so i'll see if this fixes it. > Thanks for the explanation about the way that the layers work and your > suggestion about the problem; i don't think it would have anything to > do with the sound system as it makes the startup& login sounds > everytime regardless of whether it talks or not. > Thanks, > > BEN. > > On 21/06/06, Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez wrote: > >----- Forwarded message from "Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez" > > ----- > > > >Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 20:27:51 +0200 > >From: "Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez" > >To: ben mustill-rose > >Subject: Re: Gnopernicus Not talking on ubuntu 6.06 desktop > >User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i > > > >Hi all > > > >Ben, the problem with Gnopernicus not speaking at startup is a question of > >the sound system, not availability on sound system when Gnopernicus start, > >so speech is disabled. > >You can quit gnopernicus by presing alt + q and then restaring it again by > >pressing alt + f2 and then typing gnopernicus plus enter key. > > > >I don't know Hal, so I can give you ore detail about differents. You can > >change speech settings by pressing 0 + 8 in the numeric keypad, so you can > >hear "layer 8" and then use 4 and 6 numeric keypad to decrease/increase > >speech rate, 7 and 9 for volume and 1 or 3 for pitch. > >All the functionality of Gnopernicus screen reader is based on the numeric > >keypad, and based in layers. So you have 10 layers with differents > >functions. Press 00 for layer 0, 01 for layer 1 and so. > > > >Hope this help > > > >Regards, > > > >Javier. > >On Wed, Jun 21, 2006 at 01:48:41PM +0100, ben mustill-rose wrote: > >> Hi. > >> > >> I installed ubuntu 6.06 desktop on a laptop some time ago and with > >> that i downloaded speech since i'm blind. > >> The thing is, half the time when i log in, it doesn't talk. To fix > >> this, i will have to restart the computer again and again. > >> There doesn't seem to be any patton regarding how many times i have to > >> restart, which is kinda annoying. > >> When it does start talking, its to slow, is there a hotkey to change the > >speech? > >> And lastly, is there anything that i should kno if i am moving from > >> hal to gnopernicus? > >> Any help would be great, i'm new to linux so i dunno if i gave all the > >> right info, but if not, just ask. > >> KR, BEN. > >> _______________________________________________ > >> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > >> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > >-- > >Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez > >mailto:javier@tiflolinux.org > > > >----- End forwarded message ----- > > > >-- > >Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez > >mailto:javier@tiflolinux.org > >_______________________________________________ > >gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > >gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > >http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > -- Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez mailto:javier@tiflolinux.org ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez mailto:javier@tiflolinux.org From Evan.Yan@Sun.COM Fri Jun 2 03:30:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22E083B0387 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 03:30:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06467-05 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 03:30:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sineb-mail-2.sun.com (sineb-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.19.7]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1A803B1061 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 03:29:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fe-apac-05.sun.com (fe-apac-05.sun.com [192.18.19.176] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k527TuS2009928 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:29:57 +0800 (SGT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J080000125VLS00@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Evan.Yan@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:29:56 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.158.144.94] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J08003J425W5DGH@mail-apac.sun.com> for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:29:56 +0800 (SGT) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:31:13 +0800 From: Evan Yan Sender: Evan.Yan@Sun.COM To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-id: <447FE941.4080001@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Can GOK work with autocompletion? X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 07:30:36 -0000 Hi all, I'm now working on a mozilla a11y bug, about autocompletion. The URL of the bug is https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=338242 I'm not sure whether GOK can work with autocompletion. When I input something used before into a textbox, the autocompletion will pop up, could GOK update to show the autocompletion items? I also tried that in Evolution. When writing a email, inputing a mail address which have been in the contact list, the autocompletion pop up, GOK also can't work with it. Is that a GOK bug? Thanks, Evan From alastairirving19@hotmail.com Fri Jun 2 07:41:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 159813B040E for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 07:41:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22456-10 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 07:41:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (bay112-dav20.bay112.hotmail.com [64.4.26.92]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCD603B03DE for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 07:41:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 04:41:17 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.129.189.168 by BAY112-DAV20.phx.gbl with DAV; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 11:41:14 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.129.189.168] X-Originating-Email: [alastairirving19@hotmail.com] X-Sender: alastairirving19@hotmail.com From: "Alastair Irving" To: Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 12:41:24 +0100 Message-ID: <000201c68639$7a31a6d0$0301a8c0@alastair> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C68641.DBF60ED0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2616 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Importance: Normal X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Jun 2006 11:41:17.0982 (UTC) FILETIME=[7621C3E0:01C68639] X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.544 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.364, BAYES_50=0.001, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST=1.708, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: 0.544 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Problem with orca X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 11:41:20 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C68641.DBF60ED0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello I have just installed orca 0.2.4 on my fedora core 5 laptop. The compilation went without errors. However, when I load orca, it says "orca initialised, switching to focus tracking mode", and then speech stops. I am informed that a message saying that the gnome panel has unexpectedly quit is displayed. I had this same problem with the version of gnopernicus shipped with fc5, but when I reinstalled from source it was resolved. Has anyone come across this before? Alastair Irving e-mail (and MSN): alastairirving19@hotmail.com ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C68641.DBF60ED0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Hello
 
I have = just=20 installed orca 0.2.4 on my fedora core 5 laptop.  The compilation = went=20 without errors.  However, when I load orca, it says "orca = initialised,=20 switching to focus tracking mode", and then speech stops.  I am = informed=20 that a message saying that the gnome panel has unexpectedly quit is=20 displayed. 
 
I had = this same=20 problem with the version of gnopernicus shipped with fc5, but when I = reinstalled=20 from source it was resolved.
 
Has = anyone come=20 across this before?
 
Alastair = Irving
e-mail (and = MSN): alastairirving19@hotmail.com=
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C68641.DBF60ED0-- From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Fri Jun 2 10:57:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D58D13B1189 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 10:57:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01532-10 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 10:57:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96D273B1174 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 10:57:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-04.sun.com ([192.18.39.114]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k52EvGNh007567 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 07:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-04.sun.com by d1-sfbay-04.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0800501LJXA200@d1-sfbay-04.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 07:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.21.165] by d1-sfbay-04.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J08000OEMVDEZ40@d1-sfbay-04.sun.com> for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 07:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 07:57:11 -0700 From: Peter Korn In-reply-to: <447FE941.4080001@Sun.COM> Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: Evan Yan Message-id: <448051C7.7050307@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <447FE941.4080001@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (Windows/20060308) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.523 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.075, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.523 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Can GOK work with autocompletion? X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 14:57:57 -0000 Hi Evan, This is an interesting idea - having GOK work with auto-completion! GOK has its own work completion algorithm, but that by its nature cannot have application-specific knowledge, and so generally won't do as good a job. The question is, how should GOK show such application-specific word completion, and how do we communicate that between the application and GOK via AT-SPI. Evan, David - any thoughts? Regards, Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. > Hi all, > > I'm now working on a mozilla a11y bug, about autocompletion. The URL of > the bug is > https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=338242 > > I'm not sure whether GOK can work with autocompletion. > When I input something used before into a textbox, the autocompletion > will pop up, could GOK update to show the autocompletion items? > I also tried that in Evolution. When writing a email, inputing a mail > address which have been in the contact list, the autocompletion pop up, > GOK also can't work with it. > > Is that a GOK bug? > > Thanks, > Evan > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > From david.bolter@utoronto.ca Fri Jun 2 15:28:02 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F18553B0210 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:28:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18925-03 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:27:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bureau8.utcc.utoronto.ca (bureau8.utcc.utoronto.ca [128.100.132.18]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B6C63B0B87 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:27:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail5.ns.utoronto.ca ([128.100.132.37] EHLO webmail5.ns.utoronto.ca ident: IDENT-NOT-QUERIED [port 51626]) by bureau8.utcc.utoronto.ca with ESMTP id <25121-29744>; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:25:00 -0400 Received: by webmail5.ns.utoronto.ca id <873031-8996>; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:24:50 -0400 Received: from 64.231.159.101 ( [64.231.159.101]) as user bolterda@10.143.0.52 by webmail.utoronto.ca with HTTP; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:24:46 -0400 Message-ID: <1149276286.4480907eece14@webmail.utoronto.ca> Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:24:46 -0400 From: david.bolter@utoronto.ca To: Peter Korn References: <447FE941.4080001@Sun.COM> <448051C7.7050307@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <448051C7.7050307@sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.638 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_REAL_NAME=0.961] X-Spam-Score: -1.638 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Evan Yan , gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Can GOK work with autocompletion? X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 19:28:02 -0000 Hi guys. Technically I'm on holiday today. I think we could choose an existing event (or propose a new one) for notification regarding this... and GOK could create a key representing the current app-autocompletion. Nice idea guys! cheers, D Quoting Peter Korn : > Hi Evan, > > This is an interesting idea - having GOK work with auto-completion! GOK > has its own work completion algorithm, but that by its nature cannot > have application-specific knowledge, and so generally won't do as good a > job. > > The question is, how should GOK show such application-specific word > completion, and how do we communicate that between the application and > GOK via AT-SPI. Evan, David - any thoughts? > > > Regards, > > Peter Korn > Accessibility Architect, > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > Hi all, > > > > I'm now working on a mozilla a11y bug, about autocompletion. The URL of > > the bug is > > https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=338242 > > > > I'm not sure whether GOK can work with autocompletion. > > When I input something used before into a textbox, the autocompletion > > will pop up, could GOK update to show the autocompletion items? > > I also tried that in Evolution. When writing a email, inputing a mail > > address which have been in the contact list, the autocompletion pop up, > > GOK also can't work with it. > > > > Is that a GOK bug? > > > > Thanks, > > Evan > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Fri Jun 2 16:00:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C770E3B0339 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 16:00:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20811-03 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 16:00:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9B203B015D for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 16:00:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-01.sun.com ([192.18.39.111]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k52JxvUS028281 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 12:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-01.sun.com by d1-sfbay-01.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0900G010IPLV00@d1-sfbay-01.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 12:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.21.165] by d1-sfbay-01.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0900CKK0VV9U10@d1-sfbay-01.sun.com>; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 12:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 12:59:53 -0700 From: Peter Korn In-reply-to: <1149276286.4480907eece14@webmail.utoronto.ca> Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: david.bolter@utoronto.ca Message-id: <448098B9.8080204@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <447FE941.4080001@Sun.COM> <448051C7.7050307@sun.com> <1149276286.4480907eece14@webmail.utoronto.ca> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (Windows/20060308) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.528 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.070, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.528 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Evan Yan , gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Can GOK work with autocompletion? X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:00:08 -0000 Hi David, Hmmm... I wonder about using the AccessibleAction interface for this, with a naming convention we might all follow for the . Something like: "auto-complete:" as the action name, where "" is the actual auto-complete text that would be inserted (and thus displayed on the GOK key). Then the tooltip-like window that appears with the auto-complete options would implement the ATK_Action interface. This is more heavy-weight than having a special role for the tooltip-like window with text to be extracted, but it is also less constraining of the user interface implementation that programmers render. Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. > Hi guys. Technically I'm on holiday today. I think we could choose an existing > event (or propose a new one) for notification regarding this... and GOK could > create a key representing the current app-autocompletion. > > Nice idea guys! > > cheers, > D > Quoting Peter Korn : > > >> Hi Evan, >> >> This is an interesting idea - having GOK work with auto-completion! GOK >> has its own work completion algorithm, but that by its nature cannot >> have application-specific knowledge, and so generally won't do as good a >> job. >> >> The question is, how should GOK show such application-specific word >> completion, and how do we communicate that between the application and >> GOK via AT-SPI. Evan, David - any thoughts? >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Peter Korn >> Accessibility Architect, >> Sun Microsystems, Inc. >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I'm now working on a mozilla a11y bug, about autocompletion. The URL of >>> the bug is >>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=338242 >>> >>> I'm not sure whether GOK can work with autocompletion. >>> When I input something used before into a textbox, the autocompletion >>> will pop up, could GOK update to show the autocompletion items? >>> I also tried that in Evolution. When writing a email, inputing a mail >>> address which have been in the contact list, the autocompletion pop up, >>> GOK also can't work with it. >>> >>> Is that a GOK bug? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Evan >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > From Evan.Yan@Sun.COM Sun Jun 4 13:47:19 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DBC03B0149 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 13:47:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00810-07 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 13:47:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sineb-mail-1.sun.com (sineb-mail-1.sun.com [192.18.19.6]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE6513B0130 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 13:47:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fe-apac-06.sun.com (fe-apac-06.sun.com [192.18.19.177] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k54HlBlW001893 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:47:13 +0800 (SGT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0C00C01JYLYV00@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Evan.Yan@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 01:47:11 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.150.145.22] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0C00D5YK1F36A2@mail-apac.sun.com>; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 01:47:11 +0800 (SGT) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 01:46:27 +0800 From: Evan Yan In-reply-to: <448098B9.8080204@sun.com> Sender: Evan.Yan@Sun.COM To: Peter Korn Message-id: <44831C73.8020402@Sun.COM> Organization: sceri MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <447FE941.4080001@Sun.COM> <448051C7.7050307@sun.com> <1149276286.4480907eece14@webmail.utoronto.ca> <448098B9.8080204@sun.com> User-Agent: Mail/News 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060515) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: Cc: david.bolter@utoronto.ca, Ginn.Chen@Sun.COM, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Can GOK work with autocompletion? X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 17:47:19 -0000 Hi Peter & David, I feel that app-autocompletion is something similar to pop-up menu. Could we leverage the implementation of accessible pop-up menu? I found GOK can update to show autocompletion items under some particular situation, like the following steps: 1. start Firefox and locate to www.google.com, focus on the "search" textbox; 2. select GOK UI-Grab 3. click on the "search" textbox by mouse directly, not through GOK, that makes the autocompletion pop up. Then, GOK will update to show autocompletion items. However, clicking on the items shown by GOK has no effect except collapsing the autocompletion window. Hope this could help. Besides GOK can't work with autocompletion, when autocompletion in Firefox pops up, it takes minutes for GOK to start responsing any action on it. I could see by the event-listener tool of at-spi that there are hundreds of events through GOK and Firefox, it seems GOK are refreshing all the atk objects. is that a normal phenomenon or somthing wrong? Thank you, Evan Peter Korn wrote: > Hi David, > > Hmmm... I wonder about using the AccessibleAction interface for this, > with a naming convention we might all follow for the . Something like: > > "auto-complete:" > > as the action name, where "" is the actual auto-complete text > that would be inserted (and thus displayed on the GOK key). Then the > tooltip-like window that appears with the auto-complete options would > implement the ATK_Action interface. > This is more heavy-weight than having a special role for the > tooltip-like window with text to be extracted, but it is also less > constraining of the user interface implementation that programmers > render. > > > Peter Korn > Accessibility Architect, > Sun Microsystems, Inc. >> Hi guys. Technically I'm on holiday today. I think we could choose >> an existing >> event (or propose a new one) for notification regarding this... and >> GOK could >> create a key representing the current app-autocompletion. >> >> Nice idea guys! >> >> cheers, >> D >> Quoting Peter Korn : >> >> >>> Hi Evan, >>> >>> This is an interesting idea - having GOK work with auto-completion! >>> GOK has its own work completion algorithm, but that by its nature >>> cannot have application-specific knowledge, and so generally won't >>> do as good a job. >>> >>> The question is, how should GOK show such application-specific word >>> completion, and how do we communicate that between the application >>> and GOK via AT-SPI. Evan, David - any thoughts? >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Peter Korn >>> Accessibility Architect, >>> Sun Microsystems, Inc. >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I'm now working on a mozilla a11y bug, about autocompletion. The >>>> URL of >>>> the bug is >>>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=338242 >>>> >>>> I'm not sure whether GOK can work with autocompletion. >>>> When I input something used before into a textbox, the autocompletion >>>> will pop up, could GOK update to show the autocompletion items? >>>> I also tried that in Evolution. When writing a email, inputing a mail >>>> address which have been in the contact list, the autocompletion pop >>>> up, >>>> GOK also can't work with it. >>>> >>>> Is that a GOK bug? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Evan >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >>>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >>>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >> > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From bram@bramd.nl Sun Jun 4 17:55:08 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E18483B01B7 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:55:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13065-09 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:55:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bramd.nl (dsl251-4-101.fastxdsl.nl [80.101.4.251]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72A083B02B6 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:55:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (linux.bramd.nl [127.0.0.1]) by bramd.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54ED5144103 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 23:54:59 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: bramd.nl antivirus Received: from bramd.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (linux.lan.bramd.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n9CAfyI2djAx for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 23:54:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bramdd.lan.bramd.nl (bramdd.lan.bramd.nl [192.168.1.12]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by bramd.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53A33120109 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 23:54:55 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 23:54:47 +0200 From: Bram Duvigneau X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.80.03) Professional Organization: BramD.nl X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1759379234.20060604235447@bramd.nl> To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.464 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.464 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Gnopernicus and the new ubuntu installer X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Bram Duvigneau List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 21:55:08 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: MD5 Hi all, I just tried the new Ubuntu Dapper Drake live cd and the ubuntu express installer with gnopernicus. Gnopernicus is running quite well from the cd, but I had to do a few steps to get the installer talking: - - - Launch gnopernicus - - - Enable assistive technology support - - - Log out and in again - - - Launch gnopernicus from terminal, otherwise gnome-panel crshes - - - Get a root shell with sudo -s - - - Launch gnopernicus from there to ge taccess to the installer So far so good, but when I get to the screen where I can select my location, I'm getting stuck on the combobox of citties. I selected English as system language, therefor I'm only getting citties in the usa. I tried everything, but I couldn't get to citties in Europe. Does someone know how to manage this? Maybe it's also a good idea to change this in future versions to something easier to use for the blind, because this isn't really friendly for new blind linux users. Bram -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6 iQEVAwUARINWqq7p29XxtEd/AQFVmggAg7dwV93Mm1RY0Zh08gzi4AqUBBy4ZfmZ mPvrGkmVHOab2PvLu8wdTqMFBmEmPnmhL1M3nHUCV+eKazALhaAff+jCs3o3Z2th YyQHUcypY1Won/8lxoQvv0el2n33DJg9yfGIjxp0iIs1n5HxSnMf3X2eGKQsGtvi 2n3pR85Zj/pezsTRBMHGNy8H60raMYPY5UascT8H630feZqlMksuSZDxn47cJxLB doPU+i2hUVtY3ZovNANW34jYCEF0Uxux60ZcQUS8tauz0733v3MTeJYuX57iTU+2 5KGRwC9AqRQmS9CiMiuMQwv4QATK6Iy/IyfUBdeBOJyDdZMQmuTzxw== =MsLy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nowindows@terrencevak.net Sun Jun 4 21:29:30 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16F823B0448 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 21:29:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24753-03 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 21:29:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtpout08-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout08-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.12]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 128B23B0356 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 21:29:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 31491 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 01:29:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.223.182.2) by smtpout08-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.12) with ESMTP; 05 Jun 2006 01:29:25 -0000 Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:29:16 -0800 (AKDT) From: nowindows@terrencevak.net X-X-Sender: nowindows@Knoppix To: Bram Duvigneau In-Reply-To: <1759379234.20060604235447@bramd.nl> Message-ID: References: <1759379234.20060604235447@bramd.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.221 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.74, NO_REAL_NAME=0.961] X-Spam-Score: 0.221 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Gnopernicus and the new ubuntu installer X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 01:29:30 -0000 Do you still have the URL for that installer by chance? I'd like to try that instead of the patched-together arrangement I have now, which isn't working too well. Thanks, Terrence From petra@access-for-all.ch Mon Jun 5 01:01:19 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98AC23B0278 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:01:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03080-09 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:01:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from srv94-187.ip-tech.ch (backup01.scalera.ch [195.129.94.187]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F3023B039A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:01:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 26277 invoked by uid 503); 5 Jun 2006 05:08:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blade1-4.iptech.localdomain) (10.10.1.250) by 0 with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 05:08:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 22427 invoked by uid 104); 5 Jun 2006 05:01:10 -0000 Received: from 62.203.161.3 by blade1-4 (envelope-from , uid 408) with qmail-scanner-1.25 (clamdscan: 0.87.1. spamassassin: 2.64. Clear:RC:1(62.203.161.3):. Processed in 0.058345 secs); 05 Jun 2006 05:01:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO LESE-SCHREIBSYS) (62.203.161.3) by blade1-4.iptech.localdomain with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 05:01:09 -0000 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 07:01:12 +0200 From: Petra Ritter X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.0.1.33) Home X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <467747190.20060605070112@access-for-all.ch> To: "gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.136 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: 0.136 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Ubuntu Dapper Drake live cd X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Petra Ritter List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 05:01:19 -0000 Hello, I tried the Ubuntu Dapper Drake live cd, too and I run in to two accessibility problems. 1th If I start Ubuntu with the Option 'Blindness from the Accessebility Men=FC Gnopernicus commes up however the speech does mot work after the system is up and runing. Petra From petra@access-for-all.ch Mon Jun 5 01:25:24 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44F793B03EA for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:25:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04430-09 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:25:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from srv94-187.ip-tech.ch (backup01.scalera.ch [195.129.94.187]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6A063B026A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:25:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 5711 invoked by uid 503); 5 Jun 2006 05:32:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blade1-4.iptech.localdomain) (10.10.1.250) by 0 with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 05:32:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 30910 invoked by uid 104); 5 Jun 2006 05:25:20 -0000 Received: from 62.203.161.3 by blade1-4 (envelope-from , uid 408) with qmail-scanner-1.25 (clamdscan: 0.87.1. spamassassin: 2.64. Clear:RC:1(62.203.161.3):. Processed in 0.055812 secs); 05 Jun 2006 05:25:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO LESE-SCHREIBSYS) (62.203.161.3) by blade1-4.iptech.localdomain with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 05:25:20 -0000 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 07:25:23 +0200 From: Petra Ritter X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.0.1.33) Home X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <14710359560.20060605072523@access-for-all.ch> To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.32 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.144, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.32 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Ubuntu Dapper Drake live cd X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Petra Ritter List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 05:25:25 -0000 Hello , I tried the Ubuntu Dapper Drake live cd, too and I run in to two accessibility problems. 1th If I start Ubuntu with the Option 'Blindness from the Accessebility Men=FC Gnopernicus commes up however the speech does not work after the system is up and runing. 2th I diden't managed to read the Help from Gnopernicus itself. Gnopernicus just diden't read it. The same problem appear in Firefox and in Evolution. It seam thet Gnopernicus cant read any HTML dokument. Assuming the help from Gnopernicus is HTML, too I tried alrady F7 in order to activate the "Carat Browsing" however with no success at all. Is there anything else that I can try to get Gnopernicus to read the Help? Or is there anywhere on the Internet a documentation for Gnome exept the Tabele of the Layers on the Gnopernicus Website? Petra From henrik@ubuntu.com Mon Jun 5 05:20:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACF893B00CE for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 05:20:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17743-10 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 05:20:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 116903B010D for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 05:20:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.0.10] (henrik.gotadsl.co.uk [82.133.122.11]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44EE83392D4; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 10:09:21 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <4483F4C6.8080109@ubuntu.com> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:09:26 +0100 From: Henrik Nilsen Omma User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060522) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org References: <1759379234.20060604235447@bramd.nl> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.591 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.008, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.591 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Gnopernicus and the new ubuntu installer X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 09:20:07 -0000 nowindows@terrencevak.net wrote: > Do you still have the URL for that installer by chance? I'd like > to try that instead of the patched-together arrangement I have now, which > isn't working too well. > The Ubuntu Live CD can be downloaded from here: http://www.ubuntu.com/download That comes in the form of an ISO image that must be burned to a CD, and then boot with that CD. Some instructions on using the accessibility features are here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/doc/StartGuide Note that the system does have some limitations. - Henrik From henrik@ubuntu.com Mon Jun 5 05:25:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43B9A3B031D for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 05:25:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18450-02 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 05:25:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AC5C3B010D for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 05:25:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.0.10] (henrik.gotadsl.co.uk [82.133.122.11]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FB2433AF0D; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 10:19:11 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <4483F714.6040203@ubuntu.com> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:19:16 +0100 From: Henrik Nilsen Omma User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060522) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org References: <1759379234.20060604235447@bramd.nl> In-Reply-To: <1759379234.20060604235447@bramd.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Gnopernicus and the new ubuntu installer X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 09:25:20 -0000 Bram Duvigneau wrote: > Gnopernicus is running quite well from the cd, but I had to do a few > steps to get the installer talking: > > - - - Launch gnopernicus > - - - Enable assistive technology support > - - - Log out and in again > - - - Launch gnopernicus from terminal, otherwise gnome-panel crshes > - - - Get a root shell with sudo -s > - - - Launch gnopernicus from there to ge taccess to the installer > > So far so good, but when I get to the screen where I can select my > location, I'm getting stuck on the combobox of citties. I selected > English as system language, therefor I'm only getting citties in the > usa. I tried everything, but I couldn't get to citties in Europe. Does > someone know how to manage this? Maybe it's also a good idea to change > this in future versions to something easier to use for the blind, > because this isn't really friendly for new blind linux users. > Hi Bram, Thanks for testing and providing this work-around. I've added your description to this page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/doc/StartGuide The Ubiquity installer is basically a very new piece of software with several rough edges. Well done in getting it to work with speech at all using the sudo command. Our goal is obviously to provide a trouble free install path where everything 'just works' as expected. This kind of testing is very valuable in that regard. This is our first attempt ad doing it though, so we expect to have a more polished offering in the October/November release. It would also be useful if you could file a bug about the city combo-box here: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+filebug Thanks. - Henrik From ermengol@gmail.com Thu Jun 8 10:52:26 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E9F53B0524 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 10:52:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13363-01 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 10:52:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.193]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8421F3B0F2F for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 10:52:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so419164wxd for ; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 07:52:23 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=iMykGjuJPdkSVqsogvrI8pNPbnPzh/k/ZlsMh4fYlBeHomvTmrqVXKrE6SJ/1/4w8jwRyEPx1n2j35hZf+ztqo2Hd1/wOT/0G/SyLYWt79JeDd3k2goiEf1W2hRDahYvAQeK0PziznPQKlK2m6XFSXLm7rF3rzK8slShaUb/iqA= Received: by 10.70.100.17 with SMTP id x17mr2173736wxb; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 07:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.43.13 with HTTP; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 07:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 16:52:23 +0200 From: "Ermengol Bota" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.593 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.593 X-Spam-Level: Subject: gnopernicus-magnifier. Full screen magnifier with dummy driver X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 14:52:26 -0000 Hello, I'm trying to use the gnopernicus-magnifier as a full screen magnifier. I followed the instructions at: http://www.gnome.org/learn/access-guide/2.10/apas03.html I did it with the dummy driver, but this approach have a problem and is that you have two displays (one on the left to the other) One display is the zoomed version of the other. But the mouse can move freely from on display to another, so if you are working with the zoomed display and you move the mouse to the left (or right, it depends on X config) then you "move" to the non-zoomed display. And this is a little bit annoying :) Does any body knows about a workaround for this? or any other approach to use full screen magnification on linux? Thanks a lot -- * Ermengol * /*********************************************** * Els ordinadors no resolen problemes, * * simplement executen solucions. * ************************************************/ From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Fri Jun 9 02:15:04 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FC353B00F4 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 02:15:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32071-05 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 02:15:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD48D3B00C3 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 02:15:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-04.sun.com ([192.18.39.114]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k596EsDX009979 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 23:14:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-04.sun.com by d1-sfbay-04.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0K00I01SETE000@d1-sfbay-04.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:14:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([63.207.212.14]) by d1-sfbay-04.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0K00IGLXCT2510@d1-sfbay-04.sun.com>; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:14:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:14:52 -0700 From: Peter Korn In-reply-to: Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: Ermengol Bota Message-id: <448911DC.4090607@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: gnopernicus-magnifier. Full screen magnifier with dummy driver X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 06:15:04 -0000 Hi Ermengol, This is a problem with our current magnification architecture. We are looking forward to magnifiers that are based on several X extensions - most especially the COMPOSITE extension - which will allow us to avoid this bit of hackery. Unfortunately we aren't quite ready with those yet. Regards, Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. > Hello, > I'm trying to use the gnopernicus-magnifier as a full screen magnifier. > I followed the instructions at: > http://www.gnome.org/learn/access-guide/2.10/apas03.html > > I did it with the dummy driver, but this approach have a problem and > is that you have two displays (one on the left to the other) > One display is the zoomed version of the other. But the mouse can move > freely from on display to another, so if you are working with the > zoomed display and you move the mouse to the left (or right, it > depends on X config) then you "move" to the non-zoomed display. And > this is a little bit annoying :) > > Does any body knows about a workaround for this? or any other approach > to use full screen magnification on linux? > > Thanks a lot > From enrico@enricozini.org Sat Jun 10 05:22:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 168EE3B019E for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 05:22:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22030-10 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 05:22:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agnus.ngi.it (agnus.ngi.it [88.149.128.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 705403B0130 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 05:22:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eddie.casa (81-174-12-206.f5.ngi.it [81.174.12.206]) by agnus.ngi.it (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5A9Mn6W017903 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 11:22:52 +0200 Received: from eddie.casa (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eddie.casa (Postfix) with ESMTP id A278D3000BA for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 11:22:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from marvin.casa (marvin.casa [192.168.1.2]) by eddie.casa (Postfix) with ESMTP id 920CA3000B9 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 11:22:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from enrico by marvin.casa with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1FozgF-00037s-00 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 11:22:55 +0200 Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 11:22:55 +0200 From: Enrico Zini To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060610092255.GA9803@marvin.casa> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060403 Sender: Enrico Zini X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.406 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.058, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.406 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Fixing brittle speech support on Dapper X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 09:22:57 -0000 --HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Hello, Hi, I'm Enrico, my current task is to get Dapper to become a usable desktop for Italian blind people. I've been fiddling with the speech accessibility features of Dapper for a few days now, and I found lots of ways to get gnome-speech to hang, Now I'm looking for ways to keep it working. One hanging scenario: - freshly installed dapper, Italian localization - disable esd from preferences/audio - enable accessibility and screen reader from preferences/accessibility - log out and in again - gnopernicus works - disable screen reader (but not accessibility) from preferences/accessibility - log out and in again - orca-setup, works fine, speaks - orca - speech doesn't work anymore. test-speech exits with: Exception Unknown CORBA exception id: 'IDL:omg.org/CORBA/COMM_FAILURE:1.0' getting voice list. Another hanging scenario: - freshly installed dapper, Italian localization - disable esd from preferences/audio - enable 'universe' and install festlex-ifd, festvox-italp16k and festvox-itapc16k to have italian synthesis - enable accessibility and screen reader from preferences/accessibility - log out and in again - gnopernicus works in English - go in the preferences/speech/voices menu and choose the italian female voice for all voices, raise the rate a bit. The female voice speaks when raising the rate. - close the Voices menu, no more speech. test-speech exits with: Exception Unknown CORBA exception id: 'IDL:omg.org/CORBA/COMM_FAILURE:1.0' getting voice list. In test-speech, the Speech Dispatcher output doesn't work. The festival one works, but breaks after a minimum of use, where minimum of use means just choosing the voices I'd like to use. What can I look/try to get myself unstuck? Ciao, Enrico -- GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini --HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEio9v9LSwzHl+v6sRAmOUAJ9bdcQUGWLxi/5ojqTEJaDxYmirpQCgiBtj KWj7kZTPjPpyTXmRLrDZ9Sg= =uxCv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD-- From janina@opera.rednote.net Sat Jun 10 12:22:02 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 732FA3B0237; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 12:22:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14037-10; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 12:22:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (opera.rednote.net [70.84.142.212]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAC243B00F8; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 12:22:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5AGLvPF026152; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 16:21:57 GMT Received: (from janina@localhost) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k5AGLsVu026151; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 12:21:54 -0400 Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 12:21:54 -0400 From: Janina Sajka To: Orca screen reader developers Message-ID: <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Operating-System: Linux opera.rednote.net 2.6.16-1.2122_FC5spksmp Organization: Capital Accessibility LLC (http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com) X-PGP-Key: http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com/JaninaSajka_gpg_key.html X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.276 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.277, BAYES_50=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.276 X-Spam-Level: Cc: blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, speakup@braille.uwo.ca, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 16:22:02 -0000 Mike Pedersen writes: > We have been informed, however, that there can be only one screen > reader/magnifier in the GNOME desktop. > That's a rather outrageous attitude. Who made that decision? Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application? The day may come when there is but one screen reader on the GUI desktop, but I rather doubt it given that both Gnome and KDE are likely to remain with us. However, to proactively restrict inclusion while all manner of other (sometimes only half-baked) applications are included rankles. Frankly, it's an insult. This kind of grudging support for accessibility needs to be stopped right now. In fact, it's a stretch to even call it "support." Do these deciders wonder that people in Massachusetts got so upset last year over the simple move to an open file format. Given this kind of attitude, they'll never change their minds Always remember that just proclaiming, "we support accessibility," doesn't make it so. We will not judge by published proclamations but rather by deeds. -- Janina Sajka Phone: +1.240.715.1272 Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC http://CapitalAccessibility.Com Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada--Go to http://ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more. Chair, Accessibility Workgroup Free Standards Group (FSG) janina@freestandards.org http://a11y.org From henrik@ubuntu.com Sat Jun 10 15:04:59 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F0473B022A; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:04:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21539-04; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:04:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 114EF3B00D0; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:04:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.0.10] (henrik.gotadsl.co.uk [82.133.122.11]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F102339074; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 20:00:56 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 20:01:00 +0100 From: Henrik Nilsen Omma User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060522) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Orca screen reader developers References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> In-Reply-To: <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, speakup@braille.uwo.ca, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:04:59 -0000 Janina Sajka wrote: > Mike Pedersen writes: > >> We have been informed, however, that there can be only one screen >> reader/magnifier in the GNOME desktop. >> >> > That's a rather outrageous attitude. Who made that decision? > > Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media > player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application? > I think you may have misinterpreted this slightly. The idea is that there will only be one official screen reader in Gnome, as there indeed is only one email client (Evolution), one browser (Epiphany), one office suite (gnome office, using abiword and gnumeric). Distributions can, and do, change these defaults and users can install a whole range of options. In Ubuntu we include Firefox instead of Epiphany, OpenOffice instead of Gnome Office, etc. I see no problems with that. Currently we have Gnopernicus installed by default and Orca as an option. For our next release we will likely change that so that Orca becomes the default and Gnopernicus the option. We still package and support a wide range of options beyond that though and we are actively working on several new accessibility tools from scratch. > Frankly, it's an insult. This kind of grudging support for accessibility needs to be stopped right now. In fact, it's a stretch to even call it "support." > This may be true in some areas of the open source world still, that accessibility is an afterthought, but we are working to improve that. An important factor in becoming better at this is learning to collaborate better and work together on common tools. Choice is good in principle, but the price of fragmented effort can be high. Finally, I think you are complaining the wrong audience here (various accessibility lists). All these people are already on your side. If you want to make this complaint it should go to the main developer lists of gnome, redhat, ubuntu, etc. Though that said, I do actually think that gnome is right in their policy on this. Henrik Omma Ubuntu Accessibility Coordinator From aedil@alchar.org Sat Jun 10 15:36:39 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5629C3B0494 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:36:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23108-04 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:36:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from alchar.org (dsl081-071-219.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.71.219]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A24953B03AC for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:36:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 10120 invoked by uid 100); 10 Jun 2006 19:37:54 -0000 Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:37:54 -0400 From: Kris Van Hees To: Henrik Nilsen Omma Message-ID: <20060610193754.GC21840@alchar.org> Mail-Followup-To: Kris Van Hees , Henrik Nilsen Omma , Orca screen reader developers , blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, speakup@braille.uwo.ca, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.395 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, SPF_NEUTRAL=1.069] X-Spam-Score: -1.395 X-Spam-Level: Cc: speakup@braille.uwo.ca, Orca screen reader developers , blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:36:39 -0000 On Sat, Jun 10, 2006 at 08:01:00PM +0100, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > Janina Sajka wrote: > >Mike Pedersen writes: > >>We have been informed, however, that there can be only one screen > >>reader/magnifier in the GNOME desktop. > >> > >That's a rather outrageous attitude. Who made that decision? > > > >Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media > >player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application? > > > I think you may have misinterpreted this slightly. The idea is that > there will only be one official screen reader in Gnome, as there indeed > is only one email client (Evolution), one browser (Epiphany), one office > suite (gnome office, using abiword and gnumeric). Distributions can, and > do, change these defaults and users can install a whole range of options. Not to start a holy war, but a reasonable part of the audience that believes in an alternative to Microsoft Windows also supports the notion of *not* including various other applications and suites. While Gnome is surely not an OS, it seems rather weird (and potentially dangerous) to me to end up with a situation where Gnome has an official screen reader, an official mail client, etc... By including specific official applications and suites in Gnome, you're bound to get into a situation where a large group of people will end up simply sticking to the officially included applications and suites, either by choice (easier) or as mandated by an IT department that takes the "we only run the officially included stuff" approach (all too comon). And in the end... why not simply leave Gnome to be the desktop environment it is, and let users choose what they want? Why does there need to be one official choice, and optional alternatives? I can see where the general public falls for this, and how from a "let's pretend the user is stupid" perspective this can be considered "user-friendly", but I would hope that we (as a special interest group) can express a genuine concern about this type of policy to the powers that be (and that make this type of policy). Kris From janina@opera.rednote.net Sat Jun 10 19:51:16 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B5FA3B018D; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:51:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32643-07; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:51:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (opera.rednote.net [70.84.142.212]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D56C3B00BE; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:51:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5ANnceh017788; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:49:38 GMT Received: (from janina@localhost) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k5ANnb4C017787; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:49:37 -0400 Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:49:37 -0400 From: Janina Sajka To: Henrik Nilsen Omma Message-ID: <20060610234937.GO2259@rednote.net> References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Operating-System: Linux opera.rednote.net 2.6.16-1.2122_FC5spksmp Organization: Capital Accessibility LLC (http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com) X-PGP-Key: http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com/JaninaSajka_gpg_key.html X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.562 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.037, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.562 X-Spam-Level: Cc: speakup@braille.uwo.ca, Orca screen reader developers , blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:51:16 -0000 Henrik Nilsen Omma writes: > Janina Sajka wrote: > >Mike Pedersen writes: > > > >>We have been informed, however, that there can be only one screen > >>reader/magnifier in the GNOME desktop. > >> > >> > >That's a rather outrageous attitude. Who made that decision? > > > >Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media > >player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application? > > > I think you may have misinterpreted this slightly. The idea is that > there will only be one official screen reader in Gnome, as there indeed > is only one email client (Evolution), one browser (Epiphany), one office > suite (gnome office, using abiword and gnumeric). Distributions can, and > do, change these defaults and users can install a whole range of options. > So, it seems I have misunderstood the policy quite thoroughly. I apologize for that. I am not sure the policy of having only one of a kind makes much sense to me, but I certainly do not find discrimination in such a policy when it's even handidly applied across the board. > In Ubuntu we include Firefox instead of Epiphany, OpenOffice instead of > Gnome Office, etc. I see no problems with that. Currently we have > Gnopernicus installed by default and Orca as an option. For our next > release we will likely change that so that Orca becomes the default and > Gnopernicus the option. We still package and support a wide range of > options beyond that though and we are actively working on several new > accessibility tools from scratch. Yes, those are accessibility friendly substitutions, and Ubuntu is to be commended for this. > >Frankly, it's an insult. This kind of grudging support for accessibility > >needs to be stopped right now. In fact, it's a stretch to even call it > >"support." > > > This may be true in some areas of the open source world still, that > accessibility is an afterthought, but we are working to improve that. An > important factor in becoming better at this is learning to collaborate > better and work together on common tools. Choice is good in principle, > but the price of fragmented effort can be high. Indeed so, especially in edge cases such as AT apps On the other hand AT on the Linux GUI is still fairly new, and what approaches will prove truly successful for the user is still to be seen.. We certainly do need to work on cooperation and collaboration, but I suspect we're stronger if we support the option for alternative approaches. I suspect, for instance, that accessibility on the desktop is enhanced because KDE and Gnome were able to agree on the same messaging SPI, while continuing to remain autonomous and distinctive desktops. > > Finally, I think you are complaining the wrong audience here (various > accessibility lists). All these people are already on your side. If you > want to make this complaint it should go to the main developer lists of > gnome, redhat, ubuntu, etc. Though that said, I do actually think that > gnome is right in their policy on this. While I apologize for seeing injustice where there clearly isn't any, I still remain unconvinced that an "only one of a kind" policy is the smarter policy. Different issue, of course. Janina > > Henrik Omma > Ubuntu Accessibility Coordinator > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list -- Janina Sajka Phone: +1.240.715.1272 Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC http://CapitalAccessibility.Com Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada--Go to http://ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more. Chair, Accessibility Workgroup Free Standards Group (FSG) janina@freestandards.org http://a11y.org From janina@opera.rednote.net Sat Jun 10 19:59:29 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C29053B02E3; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:59:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00741-06; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:59:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (opera.rednote.net [70.84.142.212]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED43C3B01AE; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:59:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5ANwDVd017891; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:58:13 GMT Received: (from janina@localhost) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k5ANwAA3017890; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:58:10 -0400 Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:58:10 -0400 From: Janina Sajka To: Kris Van Hees , Henrik Nilsen Omma , Orca screen reader developers , blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, speakup@braille.uwo.ca, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060610235810.GP2259@rednote.net> References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> <20060610193754.GC21840@alchar.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060610193754.GC21840@alchar.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Operating-System: Linux opera.rednote.net 2.6.16-1.2122_FC5spksmp Organization: Capital Accessibility LLC (http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com) X-PGP-Key: http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com/JaninaSajka_gpg_key.html X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.565 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.034, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.565 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:59:30 -0000 Thanks, Kris, for getting at the real issue that I missed. I must indeed agree with you. I, for one, am glad that there are dozens of sopas at the store, and several airlines to fly across the Atlantic. I understand it's harder to support choice in distributions and desktops, but I believe it's essential so to do, if for no other reason than it makes us think harder to get the important things right. It's not important that we all use the same email client, for instance, but it is important that we can read email from anyone. I believe the latter is at risk when we allow ourselves the ease of the former. Janina Kris Van Hees writes: > On Sat, Jun 10, 2006 at 08:01:00PM +0100, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > > Janina Sajka wrote: > > >Mike Pedersen writes: > > >>We have been informed, however, that there can be only one screen > > >>reader/magnifier in the GNOME desktop. > > >> > > >That's a rather outrageous attitude. Who made that decision? > > > > > >Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media > > >player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application? > > > > > I think you may have misinterpreted this slightly. The idea is that > > there will only be one official screen reader in Gnome, as there indeed > > is only one email client (Evolution), one browser (Epiphany), one office > > suite (gnome office, using abiword and gnumeric). Distributions can, and > > do, change these defaults and users can install a whole range of options. > > Not to start a holy war, but a reasonable part of the audience that believes in > an alternative to Microsoft Windows also supports the notion of *not* including > various other applications and suites. While Gnome is surely not an OS, it > seems rather weird (and potentially dangerous) to me to end up with a situation > where Gnome has an official screen reader, an official mail client, etc... > By including specific official applications and suites in Gnome, you're bound > to get into a situation where a large group of people will end up simply > sticking to the officially included applications and suites, either by choice > (easier) or as mandated by an IT department that takes the "we only run the > officially included stuff" approach (all too comon). > > And in the end... why not simply leave Gnome to be the desktop environment it > is, and let users choose what they want? Why does there need to be one > official choice, and optional alternatives? I can see where the general public > falls for this, and how from a "let's pretend the user is stupid" perspective > this can be considered "user-friendly", but I would hope that we (as a special > interest group) can express a genuine concern about this type of policy to > the powers that be (and that make this type of policy). > > Kris > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list -- Janina Sajka Phone: +1.240.715.1272 Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC http://CapitalAccessibility.Com Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada--Go to http://ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more. Chair, Accessibility Workgroup Free Standards Group (FSG) janina@freestandards.org http://a11y.org From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Sat Jun 10 20:41:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 176D53B0333; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 20:41:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01799-06; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 20:41:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E8193B000B; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 20:41:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5B0eQlh002102; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:40:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0O00301724OH00@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM); Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.23.100] by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0O00MYQ77DT140@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:40:23 -0700 From: Peter Korn In-reply-to: <20060610193754.GC21840@alchar.org> Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: Kris Van Hees , Henrik Nilsen Omma , Orca screen reader developers , blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, speakup@braille.uwo.ca, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-id: <448B6677.2010400@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> <20060610193754.GC21840@alchar.org> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.532 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.066, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.532 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:41:51 -0000 Greetings, To toss my $0.02 into this discussion... It has proven very useful to the GNOME accessibility project - and to advancing the support for assistive technologies and the implementation of ATK and AT-SPI - to have a screen reader, screen magnifier, and on-screen keyboard included as a formal part of GNOME. By 'blessing' AT in these categories, it has brought far greater awareness of AT to GNOME developers & UNIX distributions, and has led to a lot of compatibility testing, bug finding, and bug fixing. Given that it is general GNOME policy to make one product in any given category the 'default' product that a formal part of the GNOME desktop, I am personally delighted that they have chosen to create such a category for screen reader, screen magnifier, on-screen keyboard, and text-input alternative (Dasher). Regards, Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. > On Sat, Jun 10, 2006 at 08:01:00PM +0100, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > >> Janina Sajka wrote: >> >>> Mike Pedersen writes: >>> >>>> We have been informed, however, that there can be only one screen >>>> reader/magnifier in the GNOME desktop. >>>> >>>> >>> That's a rather outrageous attitude. Who made that decision? >>> >>> Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media >>> player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application? >>> >>> >> I think you may have misinterpreted this slightly. The idea is that >> there will only be one official screen reader in Gnome, as there indeed >> is only one email client (Evolution), one browser (Epiphany), one office >> suite (gnome office, using abiword and gnumeric). Distributions can, and >> do, change these defaults and users can install a whole range of options. >> > > Not to start a holy war, but a reasonable part of the audience that believes in > an alternative to Microsoft Windows also supports the notion of *not* including > various other applications and suites. While Gnome is surely not an OS, it > seems rather weird (and potentially dangerous) to me to end up with a situation > where Gnome has an official screen reader, an official mail client, etc... > By including specific official applications and suites in Gnome, you're bound > to get into a situation where a large group of people will end up simply > sticking to the officially included applications and suites, either by choice > (easier) or as mandated by an IT department that takes the "we only run the > officially included stuff" approach (all too comon). > > And in the end... why not simply leave Gnome to be the desktop environment it > is, and let users choose what they want? Why does there need to be one > official choice, and optional alternatives? I can see where the general public > falls for this, and how from a "let's pretend the user is stupid" perspective > this can be considered "user-friendly", but I would hope that we (as a special > interest group) can express a genuine concern about this type of policy to > the powers that be (and that make this type of policy). > > Kris > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > From j.schmude@gmail.com Sat Jun 10 22:51:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23ED53B05B3 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 22:51:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06037-02 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 22:51:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.202]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE23C3B0588 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 22:51:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id x7so970474nzc for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:50:26 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:content-type:to:from:subject:date:x-mailer; b=FkqiqwKYV6jqK72JUrYg6R4e7hAicwZR5NrV2Ya/FTkAp+FAActyboT3lmnBTCnhOO8zyQRZQqb0J0UP6tn8AxcJBBUNVRInZ90Hy9BvWFsvwF37FNONyt7PwEuLcs3TOK+3uGZ/mAdzwmuvbgn8mb1ql7peqrgAsgKNgjZAhjs= Received: by 10.36.215.18 with SMTP id n18mr6512883nzg; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.0.11? ( [70.162.106.212]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 37sm786308nzf.2006.06.10.19.21.46; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <4E366E31-2C86-4DB3-AEC7-99660ACF8047@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org (Gnome accessibility ) From: Jacob Schmude Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:27:49 -0700 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Orca and 3rd party Emacspeak Servers X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 02:51:03 -0000 Hi everyone I thought I'd try the emacspeak server support in Orca to see if it would use my doubletalk LT synth. However, Orca only lists the speech servers that come standard with Emacspeak. The emacspeak-ss package add support for many more synthesizers than simply dectalk varients. Is there a way to get these listed in Orca as well or, failing that, have perhaps an "other" option in the list that would allow me to enter a different speech server? I'm going to play with it a bit, maybe I can edit the settings file to make it run anyway. Thanks From dmehler26@woh.rr.com Sun Jun 11 00:12:17 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DC9E3B03FB for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:12:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09104-04 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:12:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ms-smtp-03.ohiordc.rr.com (ms-smtp-03.ohiordc.rr.com [65.24.5.137]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B9C33B00A6 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:12:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from satellite (cpe-65-31-41-159.woh.res.rr.com [65.31.41.159]) by ms-smtp-03.ohiordc.rr.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id k5B3QTul013111 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:26:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <00af01c68d05$29efeba0$0200a8c0@satellite> From: "Dave" To: Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:14:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.069 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=1.069, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001, TW_CV=0.077, TW_DL=0.077, TW_GD=0.077, TW_GT=0.077, TW_LG=0.077, TW_VF=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -1.069 X-Spam-Level: Subject: gnopernicus, java, and access bridge on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Dave List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 04:12:17 -0000 Hello, My name is Dave. I'm a sysadmin with six years Unix experience, FreeBSD and Linux mostly. So far my experience has been with setting up server platforms for FreeBSD for the purposes of this message and not workstations requiring x. A while back when i did it using XFree86 i was unsuccessful. Now i want to replace some Linux fc4 workstations with FreeBSD. I've got xorg configured, gnome starting, and gnopernicus up and running. I'm almost certain i don't have all the accessibility hooks turned on, but i will undoubtedly learn about those as i investigate apps. I want to do as many installs using the FreeBSD ports infrastructure as i feel this would make system upkeep much easier. I'd like access to java apps, using the access bridge. I've installed the jdk 1.5, but when i atempt to compile access bridge i am getting "Error illegal option x" The full output of the compilation atempt is below. If anyone has this working i'd appreciate hearing from you. I'd eventually like to have access to openoffice2 using java as well. Thanks. Dave. compilation: # ./configure checking for a BSD-compatible install... /usr/bin/install -c checking whether build environment is sane... yes checking whether make sets $(MAKE)... yes checking for working aclocal-1.4... missing checking for working autoconf... missing checking for working automake-1.4... missing checking for working autoheader... missing checking for working makeinfo... found checking for java... java checking JDK version... 1.5.0 checking for javac... javac JRE_HOME appears to be /usr/local/bin/jre checking for idlj... idlj checking for jar... jar checking for pkg-config... /usr/local/bin/pkg-config checking for bonobo-activation-2.0 libspi-1.0 >= 1.7.0... yes checking JAVA_BRIDGE_CFLAGS... -DORBIT2=1 -D_REENTRANT -DXTHREADS -DXUSE_MTSAFE_API -I/usr/local/include/bonobo-activation-2.0 -I/usr/local/include/glib-2.0 -I/usr/local/lib/glib-2.0/include -I/usr/local/include/orbit-2.0 -I/usr/local/include/libbonobo-2.0 -I/usr/local/include/atk-1.0 -I/usr/local/include/cairo -I/usr/X11R6/include/at-spi-1.0 -I/usr/X11R6/include/gtk-2.0 -I/usr/X11R6/lib/gtk-2.0/include -I/usr/X11R6/include/pango-1.0 -I/usr/X11R6/include -I/usr/local/include/freetype2 -I/usr/local/include checking JAVA_BRIDGE_LIBS... -pthread -Wl,--rpath -Wl,/usr/local/lib -L/usr/local/lib -L/usr/X11R6/lib -lspi -lbonobo-2 -lgtk-x11-2.0 -lbonobo-activation -lORBit-2 -lgthread-2.0 -lgdk-x11-2.0 -lXrandr -lXi -lXinerama -latk-1.0 -lgdk_pixbuf-2.0 -lpangocairo-1.0 -lXcursor -lXfixes -lcairo -lpangoft2-1.0 -lfontconfig -lfreetype -lz -lpango-1.0 -lm -lXrender -lX11 -lXext -lgobject-2.0 -lgmodule-2.0 -lglib-2.0 -liconv configure: creating ./config.status config.status: creating Makefile config.status: creating idlgen/Makefile config.status: creating idlgen/org/Makefile config.status: creating idlgen/org/GNOME/Makefile config.status: creating idlgen/org/GNOME/Accessibility/Makefile config.status: creating idlgen/org/GNOME/Bonobo/Makefile config.status: creating util/Makefile config.status: creating util/org/Makefile config.status: creating util/org/GNOME/Makefile config.status: creating util/org/GNOME/Accessibility/Makefile config.status: creating impl/Makefile config.status: creating impl/org/Makefile config.status: creating impl/org/GNOME/Makefile config.status: creating impl/org/GNOME/Accessibility/Makefile config.status: creating impl/org/GNOME/Bonobo/Makefile config.status: creating bridge/Makefile config.status: creating bridge/org/Makefile config.status: creating bridge/org/GNOME/Makefile config.status: creating bridge/org/GNOME/Accessibility/Makefile config.status: creating at-client/Makefile config.status: creating at-client/org/Makefile config.status: creating at-client/org/GNOME/Makefile config.status: creating at-client/org/GNOME/Accessibility/Makefile config.status: creating registry/Makefile config.status: creating registry/org/Makefile config.status: creating registry/org/GNOME/Makefile config.status: creating registry/org/GNOME/Accessibility/Makefile config.status: creating test/Makefile [root@titan /usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0]# gmake Making all in idlgen gmake[1]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen' Making all in org gmake[2]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org' Making all in GNOME gmake[3]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME' Making all in Accessibility gmake[4]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Accessibility' gmake[4]: Nothing to be done for `all'. gmake[4]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Accessibility' Making all in Bonobo gmake[4]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Bonobo' gmake[4]: Nothing to be done for `all'. gmake[4]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Bonobo' gmake[4]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME' gmake[4]: Nothing to be done for `all-am'. gmake[4]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME' gmake[3]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME' gmake[3]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org' gmake[3]: Nothing to be done for `all-am'. gmake[3]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org' gmake[2]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org' gmake[2]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen' idlj \ -pkgPrefix Bonobo org.GNOME \ -pkgPrefix Accessibility org.GNOME \ -emitAll -i /usr/local/share/idl/bonobo-activation-2.0 -i /usr/X11R6/share/gnome/idl/at-spi-1.0 -i /usr/local/share/idl/bonobo-2.0 \ -fallTie /usr/X11R6/share/gnome/idl/at-spi-1.0/Accessibility.idl com.sun.tools.corba.se.idl.InvalidArgument: Invalid rgument: -XX:+UseMembar. Compiler Usage: java com.sun.tools.corba.se.idl.toJavaPortable.Compile [options] where is the name of a file containing IDL definitions, and [options] is any combination of the options listed below. The options are optional and may appear in any order; is required and must appear last. Options: -d This is equivalent to the following line in an IDL file: #define -emitAll Emit all types, including those found in #included files. -f Define what bindings to emit. is one of client, server, all, serverTIE, allTIE. serverTIE and allTIE cause delegate model skeletons to be emitted. If this flag is not used, -fclient is assumed. -i By default, the current directory is scanned for included files. This option adds another directory. -keep If a file to be generated already exists, do not overwrite it. By default it is overwritten. -noWarn Suppress warnings. -oldImplBase Generate skeletons compatible with old (pre-1.4) JDK ORBs. -pkgPrefix When the type or module name is encountered at file scope, begin the Java package name for all files generated for with . -pkgTranslate When the type or module name in encountered, replace it with in the generated java package. Note that pkgPrefix changes are made first. must match the full package name exactly. Also, must not be org, org.omg, or any subpackage of org.omg. -skeletonName Name the skeleton according to the pattern. The defaults are: %POA for the POA base class (-fserver or -fall) _%ImplBase for the oldImplBase base class (-oldImplBase and (-fserver or -fall)). -td use for the output directory instead of the current directory. -tieName Name the tie according to the pattern. The defaults are: %POATie for the POA tie (-fserverTie or -fallTie) %_Tie for the oldImplBase tie (-oldImplBase and (-fserverTie or -fallTie)). -v, -verbose Verbose mode. -version Display the version number and quit. gmake[3]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Bonobo' gmake[3]: Nothing to be done for `all'. gmake[3]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Bonobo' gmake[3]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Accessibility' gmake[3]: Nothing to be done for `all'. gmake[3]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Accessibility' touch ../jar-stamp touch ../jar-stamp jar cf ../gnome-java-bridge.jar org/GNOME/Bonobo/*.class org/GNOME/Accessibility/*.class Illegal option: X Usage: jar {ctxu}[vfm0Mi] [jar-file] [manifest-file] [-C dir] files ... Options: -c create new archive -t list table of contents for archive -x extract named (or all) files from archive -u update existing archive -v generate verbose output on standard output -f specify archive file name -m include manifest information from specified manifest file -0 store only; use no ZIP compression -M do not create a manifest file for the entries -i generate index information for the specified jar files -C change to the specified directory and include the following file If any file is a directory then it is processed recursively. The manifest file name and the archive file name needs to be specified in the same order the 'm' and 'f' flags are specified. Example 1: to archive two class files into an archive called classes.jar: jar cvf classes.jar Foo.class Bar.class Example 2: use an existing manifest file 'mymanifest' and archive all the files in the foo/ directory into 'classes.jar': jar cvfm classes.jar mymanifest -C foo/ . gmake[2]: *** [../gnome-java-bridge.jar] Error 1 gmake[2]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen' gmake[1]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1 gmake[1]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen' gmake: *** [all-recursive] Error 1 From henrik@ubuntu.com Sun Jun 11 07:38:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FC053B0641; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 07:38:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07029-08; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 07:38:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17EBD3B0168; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 07:38:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.0.10] (henrik.gotadsl.co.uk [82.133.122.11]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7428339335; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 12:37:30 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <448C007D.9030400@ubuntu.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 12:37:33 +0100 From: Henrik Nilsen Omma User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060522) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Orca screen reader developers References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> <20060610193754.GC21840@alchar.org> <448B6677.2010400@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <448B6677.2010400@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.593 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.006, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.593 X-Spam-Level: Cc: blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, speakup@braille.uwo.ca, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 11:38:41 -0000 Peter Korn wrote: > It has proven very useful to the GNOME accessibility project - and to > advancing the support for assistive technologies and the > implementation of ATK and AT-SPI - to have a screen reader, screen > magnifier, and on-screen keyboard included as a formal part of GNOME. > By 'blessing' AT in these categories, it has brought far greater > awareness of AT to GNOME developers & UNIX distributions, and has led > to a lot of compatibility testing, bug finding, and bug fixing. We have seen the effects of this esp. in the last release cycle when we have now managed to get a range of accessibility tools into the default install and running from the Live CD. Other developers, such as those specialising in the Live CD, the installer and the Gnome desktop have taken an interest and are helping us solve the problems. For our next development cycle we now have several specifications on the main development track (see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Specs) I think custom distributions like Oralux can focus on adding as much assistive technology as possible to a single CD and let the user explore it all. For a main stream distro though, I think we need to make choices about what we consider to be most suitable at this time, and leave the rest as options. Picking favourites is actually an important part of what we do because it allows us to focus our efforts better on providing support and fixes on those packages. - Henrik From William.Walker@Sun.COM Sun Jun 11 19:53:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C98A93B00BC; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 19:53:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09467-02; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 19:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 656553B00B7; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 19:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fe-amer-06.sun.com ([192.18.108.180]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5BNqQ6B020577; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:52:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0P00M01Y1KY900@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from William.Walker@Sun.COM); Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:52:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.1.105] ([68.116.197.173]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0P0097BZN5LTZ1@mail-amer.sun.com>; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:52:26 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 19:52:16 -0400 From: Willie Walker Sender: William.Walker@Sun.COM To: orca-list@gnome.org, gnome-announce-list@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-id: <1150069937.5071.4.camel@localhost> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.587 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.011, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.587 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Announcing Orca 0.2.5 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 23:53:34 -0000 ================ * What is Orca ? ================ Orca is a scriptable screen reader for the GNOME desktop for people with visual impairments. ================== * What's changed ? ================== We've done a lot of work on Orca since the last release in both the new functionality and quality/stability departments. We thank all of our users that are providing feedback on gnome-list@gnome.org (see http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list) as well as http://bugzilla.gnome.org. We value all of your feedback and help. We also appreciate contributions from community members, including Al Puzzuoli who is doing a great job helping with the Orca Wiki at http://live.gnome.org/Orca and Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez who has been testing and providing patches. Thank you all! ================== Orca 0.2.5 Changes ================== * Re-map keyboard bindings and add additional keyboard bindings. See http://live.gnome.org/Orca/KeyboardCommands for the list. * Improvements to StarOffice support to provide better access to text documents and spreadsheets. Also get rid of spurious "0.00" text that was showing up in braille for StarOffice buttons. * Addition of announcing text selection as it is selected and unselected. * Generalize the "read table cell row" functionality. If you press Insert+F11, it will toggle the feature to read the entire row of a table or just the selected table cell when you move from row to row. * Improved support for SayAll of text objects (SayAll for flat review is still on the to do list). * Addition of self-voicing module to tell Orca to be quiet when a self-voicing application is present. * Addition of ability to turn Orca into a speech server that can accessed via simple HTTP commands (default port is 20433, but this is customizable via orca.settings.speechServerPort). This will allow self-voicing applications to use Orca for their speech, thus letting them get the user's speech settings preferences. * Addition of orca.settings.enableBrailleGrouping (default=False). NOTE: this represents a change in the UI for Orca - the behavior to date has been to always group menu items on the braille display. The system responsiveness was bad for large menus, however, so we decided to make this an optional feature turned off by default. * Addition of utility to report information on the currently active script. This is primarily for helping script writers do debugging and is accessed by pressing Insert+F3. * Addition of orca.settings.cacheAccessibles (default=True) as a means to turn the local caching of accessible objects on or off. This is primarily an Orca developer debugging feature. * Fix for bug 344218 - gnome-terminal would not be presented properly if it was started after Orca. * Fix for bug 343666: pressing buttons on braille displays could cause a hang. * Partial fix for bug 342022 - provide some defensive mechanisms to help prevent some hangs. * Fix for bug 343133 - do not hang when doing a flat-review of a man page in gnome-terminal. * Fix for bug #343013 - the command line option strings should not be translatable. * Partial fix for bug 319652 - become a better Python thread citizen to help reduce hangs. * Fix for bug 342303 - stop speech when the user presses the mouse button. * Fix for bug 342122 - use all labels for an objecty when presenting an object. * Fix for bug 342133 - do not read all labels in gnome-window-properties application when it appears. * Fix for bug 341415 - when moving between workspaces with metacity, eliminate redundant output and alsomake sure workspace names are announced. * Refactor of various modules to move script writing utilities into util.py. * More fleshing out of the test plan. ====================== * Where can I get it ? ====================== Source code: http://ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/sources/orca/0.2/orca-0.2.5.tar.gz Enjoy. Will, Mike, Rich, Lynn, and the Orca community From rd@baum.ro Mon Jun 12 04:21:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B89BD3B00EC for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 04:21:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26018-07 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 04:21:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from main.baum.ro (dnt-gw-baum.dnttm.ro [83.103.190.186]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E47273B00D4 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 04:21:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.0.104] ([82.77.32.51]) by main.baum.ro (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5C7d8Yc010617; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 10:39:08 +0300 From: remus draica To: Dave In-Reply-To: <00af01c68d05$29efeba0$0200a8c0@satellite> References: <00af01c68d05$29efeba0$0200a8c0@satellite> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:20:40 -0400 Message-Id: <1150125641.4877.19.camel@ubuntu> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.573 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.854, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_FUTURE_06_12=1.668, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, TW_DL=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -1.573 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: gnopernicus, java, and access bridge on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 08:21:40 -0000 Hi, > checking for java... java > checking JDK version... 1.5.0 > checking for javac... javac > JRE_HOME appears to be /usr/local/bin/jre > checking for idlj... idlj > checking for jar... jar Because you have installed a new java version, is possible to have 2 versions. so, check if all files above are from same distribution, or run ./configure --with-java-home=/path to jdk Regards, Remus From tward1978@earthlink.net Mon Jun 12 15:30:53 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 912973B0100 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:30:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27449-05 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:30:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-gadwall.atl.sa.earthlink.net (pop-gadwall.atl.sa.earthlink.net [207.69.195.61]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB3063B0010 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:30:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dialup-4.224.186.21.dial1.cincinnati1.level3.net ([4.224.186.21]) by pop-gadwall.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1Fps6b-0002fm-00; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:29:45 -0400 Message-ID: <448DC0AE.3030302@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:29:50 -0400 From: Thomas Ward User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave References: <00af01c68d05$29efeba0$0200a8c0@satellite> In-Reply-To: <00af01c68d05$29efeba0$0200a8c0@satellite> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.943 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.456] X-Spam-Score: -0.943 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: gnopernicus, java, and access bridge on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 19:30:53 -0000 Hello, Dave. Gnome has three different areas of access which can be turned on or off depending on the level of accessibility you are aiming for. The first is controled by gconf. When you answer yes to accessibility when gnopernicus first loads the following key is set to true gconftool-2 --set "/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility" --type boolean "True") I haven't tested this lately, but if you type that key in to a standard bash shell prompt it would equal answering yes to the do you want access turned on when gnopernicus starts. The second flag which you can set turns the atk-bridge on for apps such as gaim which won't work without it. To turn the atk-bridge on add this line to the end of your home .bash_profile. export GTK_MODULES=gail:atk-bridge Assuming you have java access bridge installed, which I know you don't at this time, you can create a .orbitrc file in your home directory with gedit, nano, or another favorite text editor and add the following line. ORBIIOPIPv4=1 I'm not sure if you still need this as it has been a while since I did an update on everything, but to work with open office you needed to set SAL_ACCESSIBILITY_ENABLED=1 to get full access to OpenOffice.org. Hope this helps. From lists@digitaldarragh.com Tue Jun 13 04:23:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03BC73B000C for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 04:23:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15398-07 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 04:23:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.webhost.ie (mail.webhost.ie [83.138.8.74]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B51923B000A for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 04:23:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by mail.webhost.ie (Merak 8.3.8) with SMTP id ROJ35911 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:22:11 +0100 Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:22:11 +0100 From: Darragh To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <58fe54a1f8137f5466e7e91769d78df1@digitaldarragh.com> X-Mailer: IceWarp Web Mail 5.6.1 X-Originating-IP: 82.1.217.193 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.62 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.880, BAYES_20=-0.74] X-Spam-Score: -1.62 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Orca or Gnopernicus on a distro like Slax? X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 08:23:12 -0000 Hello all, I know slax uses KDE as its default window manager but do any of you know of another distro that works from a usb drive with the latest version of Gnome that will allow me to install Orca or Gnopernicus? Thanks Darragh Ó Héiligh Web development, O/S and Application technical support. Website: http://www.digitaldarragh.com From enrico@enricozini.org Tue Jun 13 17:50:15 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 104BB3B03CF for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:50:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07729-05 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:50:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agnus.ngi.it (agnus.ngi.it [88.149.128.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 917753B00C4 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:50:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eddie.casa (81-174-12-206.f5.ngi.it [81.174.12.206]) by agnus.ngi.it (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5DLllUw007997; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:47:48 +0200 Received: from eddie.casa (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eddie.casa (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A91230011E; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:47:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from marvin.casa (marvin.casa [192.168.1.2]) by eddie.casa (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F53430011D; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:47:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from enrico by marvin.casa with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1FqGjk-0002Ze-00; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:47:48 +0200 Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:47:47 +0200 From: Enrico Zini To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060613214747.GA4897@marvin.casa> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com References: <20060610092255.GA9803@marvin.casa> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060610092255.GA9803@marvin.casa> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060403 Sender: Enrico Zini X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.446 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.446 X-Spam-Level: Cc: ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Re: Fixing brittle speech support on Dapper X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 21:50:15 -0000 --ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline On Sat, Jun 10, 2006 at 11:22:55AM +0200, Enrico Zini wrote: > - speech doesn't work anymore. test-speech exits with: > Exception Unknown CORBA exception id: 'IDL:omg.org/CORBA/COMM_FAILURE:1.0' getting voice list. I've been waiting but sadly noone answered so far. I tried reinstalling from scratch in another computer, and I can trivially reproduce the speech server lockup there as well: 1) Fresh Ubuntu Dapper, apt-get install festlex-ifd festvox-italp16k festvox-itapc16k (from universe) 2) go to gnopernicus Preferences/Speech/Voices/Modify absolute values 3) choose "Festival GNOME Speech Driver" as a driver, "V2 lp_diphone" as the voice. Apply setting for all voices. 4) close the window. The voice stops. test-speech hangs after selecting the festival server. Please help me to find some clues on fixing this: it took us years to get GPL Festival voices for Italian, and now we could easily turn them into an accessible localised desktop, if it weren't for this. Ciao, Enrico -- GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini --ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEjzKD9LSwzHl+v6sRAuVyAJwI3dqpDwnrS8qq/ABGqUJdsmgJ5gCff+/n q3ZtW+3tVh14q1n0aG0Yv4U= =6lsv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q-- From ermengol@gmail.com Tue Jun 13 19:28:37 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 962923B021A for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 19:28:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09625-09 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 19:28:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.187]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D88D83B01C5 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 19:28:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id y38so1070382nfb for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 16:27:04 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=XgBruegOpLZfMFjVd1bPz7yhVNs2CnoRcO+dGHnDzPiAvdXBFd2k/1e+WEfiVvy0xfFcU9Hv2NP59uG70HF+eibs6v8uIl7c00uqcwS8i1AdUwQxnYqqmuVQR2e9xmGoF7pTOYlpYkfeD0r45ZHY9rsNBDc0CMZCXDZEvXBn9Hg= Received: by 10.49.68.20 with SMTP id v20mr7621nfk; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 16:27:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.48.208.11 with HTTP; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 16:27:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 01:27:04 +0200 From: "Ermengol Bota" To: "Peter Korn" In-Reply-To: <448911DC.4090607@sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <448911DC.4090607@sun.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: gnopernicus-magnifier. Full screen magnifier with dummy driver X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:28:37 -0000 2006/6/9, Peter Korn : > This is a problem with our current magnification architecture. We are > looking forward to magnifiers that are based on several X extensions - > most especially the COMPOSITE extension - which will allow us to avoid > this bit of hackery. Unfortunately we aren't quite ready with those yet. Thanks for all the answers. I know (i just read its web) that Composite does (will do?) more things, not only full screen magnifier, but at least on suse based distro's there is a modifier for xorg that enables to add "virtual resolution". So, you can define the screen resolution (1024x768) and then the virtual resolution 1600x1200 (the resolution for the desktop). This way it works like full screen magnifier. I've done it with SaX2 application (YaST2), but it just adds a new entry " Virtual 1600 1200" on each subsection "Display" of section "Screen" The differences i've seen so far are mainly all the functionalities that gnome-mag can do: change cursor, change the way screen move.... But may be it's an easier way to magnify the screen :-) Thanks for all -- * Ermengol * /*********************************************** * Els ordinadors no resolen problemes, * * simplement executen solucions. * ************************************************/ From themuso@themuso.com Wed Jun 14 09:44:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 189183B00FA; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 09:44:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23247-06; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 09:44:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vscan03.westnet.com.au (vscan03.westnet.com.au [203.10.1.142]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE6883B0133; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 09:44:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70444B60BFC; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 21:43:27 +0800 (WST) Received: from vscan03.westnet.com.au ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (vscan03.westnet.com.au [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04093-05; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 21:43:27 +0800 (WST) Received: from themuso.com (dsl-202-173-132-131.nsw.westnet.com.au [202.173.132.131]) by vscan03.westnet.com.au (Postfix) with SMTP id E0F6AB60BCC; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 21:43:26 +0800 (WST) Received: (nullmailer pid 26322 invoked by uid 1000); Wed, 14 Jun 2006 13:43:40 -0000 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 23:43:40 +1000 To: Gnome Accessibility List , Orca screen reader developers , Ubuntu Accessibility Mailing List Subject: Orca 0.2.5, and LSR 0.2.1 packages available. Message-ID: <20060614134340.GA26307@themuso.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 From: Luke Yelavich X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.415 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.049, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.415 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 13:44:36 -0000 --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all I am happy to announce that packages for both LSR 0.2.1, and orca 0.2.5=20 are available for Ubuntu dapper. To use them, put the following line in=20 your /etc/apt/sources.list file deb http://www.themuso.com/ubuntu/accessibility dapper universe Then run sudo apt-get update, and sudo apt-get install gnome-orca or lsr=20 depending on which package you want. Packages exist for both i386 and powerpc. If people want amd64 packages,=20 if you could possibly give me access to an amd64 box, I would be happy=20 to get them built and make them available. You can also access the source packages, should you want to know how=20 they are built. Add the following line to /etc/apt/sources.list deb-src http://www.themuso.com/ubuntu/accessibility dapper universe Enjoy! --=20 Luke Yelavich GPG key: 0xD06320CE=20 (http://www.themuso.com/themuso-gpg-key.txt) Email & MSN: themuso@themuso.com ICQ: 18444344 Jabber: themuso@jabber.org.au --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEkBKMjVefwtBjIM4RAl8WAJ98WHZSVlRtkZDRTRHmoFHg+xOmoACdFdmN 3VXNeYNIFaN6NUgtvG0epkQ= =bj1o -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o-- From janina@opera.rednote.net Wed Jun 14 12:17:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08CF33B0156; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:17:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28336-10; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:17:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (opera.rednote.net [70.84.142.212]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2375F3B03DA; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:17:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5EGH5iU007764; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 16:17:05 GMT Received: (from janina@localhost) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k5EGH5N6007763; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:17:05 -0400 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:17:05 -0400 From: Janina Sajka To: Willie Walker Subject: Re: Announcing Orca 0.2.5 rpms Message-ID: <20060614161705.GW2259@rednote.net> References: <1150069937.5071.4.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1150069937.5071.4.camel@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Operating-System: Linux opera.rednote.net 2.6.16-1.2122_FC5spksmp Organization: Capital Accessibility LLC (http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com) X-PGP-Key: http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com/JaninaSajka_gpg_key.html X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.569 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.030, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.569 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-announce-list@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, orca-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 16:17:56 -0000 rpm packages of Orca-0.2.5 for Fedora Core 5 are now available from: ftp://SpeakupModified.Org/fedora/rednote/ The binary is under RPMS, and the source under SRPMS as usual with Fedora. Installation There is yet some unresolved dependency issue with these rpms, so they probably will need to be installed using the --nodeps option as follows: rpm -Uv --nodeps orca-0.2.5-1.i386.rpm However, I can attest the resulting installation works for me on two different systems. I have first run: orca -t from the console, as the same user I am in the gui desktop. Once on the desktop, I have issued Alt-F2 and typed: orca -t again to get things started. Seems wrong, but is working for me on two systems. Special Note: You may need to upgrade your Gnome Desktop to Fedora Development. If you find things not working with the current release and updated Gnome environment, try: yum --disablerepo='*' --enablerepo=development groupupdate 'GNOME Desktop Environment' Note the above command is issued on one line, though it's probably been broken into at least two lines in this email message. -- Janina Sajka Phone: +1.240.715.1272 Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC http://CapitalAccessibility.Com Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada--Go to http://ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more. Chair, Accessibility Workgroup Free Standards Group (FSG) janina@freestandards.org http://a11y.org From aaronleventhal@moonset.net Wed Jun 14 11:07:53 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBFD43B0156 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:07:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01652-09 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:07:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.lnh.mail.rcn.net (smtp01.lnh.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 191C33B0120 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:07:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 207-180-148-92.c3-0.arl-ubr2.sbo-arl.ma.cable.rcn.com (HELO [192.168.0.6]) ([207.180.148.92]) by smtp01.lnh.mail.rcn.net with ESMTP; 14 Jun 2006 11:08:29 -0400 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.06,132,1149480000"; d="scan'208"; a="222292815:sNHT26602784" Message-ID: <4490260C.6030606@moonset.net> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:06:52 -0400 From: Aaron Leventhal User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: mozilla.dev.accessibility Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Major rewrite will break trunk temporarily Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 03:15:26 -0400 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 15:07:54 -0000 Work is progressing on https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=340829 This is a major rewrite which will remove nsAccessibleText, nsAcessibleEditableText and nsAccessibleHyperText classes, and move that code into a new cross platform class called nsHyperTextAccessible. Please be informed that when this goes in, it will take about a month for the trunk to stabilize. This does not affect the MOZILLA_1_8 branch which is being used to develop Firefox 2. This rewrite will ultimately find its way into Firefox 3 due out in 2007. When the smoke clears, we will have something very close to this: http://www.mozilla.org/access/unix/new-atk - Aaron From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Wed Jun 21 08:16:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 609D73B0F9B for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:16:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03164-08 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:16:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.186]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80AAF3B0D58 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:16:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id h2so80984nfe for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.34.19 with SMTP id m19mr514346nfj; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.30.13 with HTTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:16:15 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" Sender: skating.tortoise@gmail.com To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, ubuntu-accessibility Subject: Slow keys dialog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Google-Sender-Auth: 7fa2bf341aa83a4f X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.361 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.239, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.361 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:16:18 -0000 I've implemented sticky keys in my onscreen keyboard. When shift is stuck down it causes the slow keys dialogue to appear. Is there a way to suppress this dialog whilst my app is running? thanks -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From bmustillrose@gmail.com Wed Jun 21 08:48:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C35B3B0FF1 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:48:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05586-09 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:48:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.189]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07BC83B0F9B for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:48:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id h2so84606nfe for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:48:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.81.12 with SMTP id i12mr543988nfl; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:48:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.48.42.2 with HTTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:48:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4285e65e0606210548m58845a3el9847e55d8d3f64b5@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:48:41 +0100 From: "ben mustill-rose" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Gnopernicus Not talking on ubuntu 6.06 desktop MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:48:52 -0000 Hi. I installed ubuntu 6.06 desktop on a laptop some time ago and with that i downloaded speech since i'm blind. The thing is, half the time when i log in, it doesn't talk. To fix this, i will have to restart the computer again and again. There doesn't seem to be any patton regarding how many times i have to restart, which is kinda annoying. When it does start talking, its to slow, is there a hotkey to change the speech? And lastly, is there anything that i should kno if i am moving from hal to gnopernicus? Any help would be great, i'm new to linux so i dunno if i gave all the right info, but if not, just ask. KR, BEN. From javier@tiflolinux.org Wed Jun 21 14:16:58 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD2ED3B009F for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:16:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27974-05 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:16:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tiflolinux.org (unknown [82.158.40.139]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 191AA3B0095 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:16:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (uid 503) by tiflolinux.org with local; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 20:29:33 +0200 id 0009B56D.4499900D.00000432 Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 20:29:33 +0200 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Fco=2E_Javier_Dorado_Mart=EDnez?=" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Gnopernicus Not talking on ubuntu 6.06 desktop] Message-ID: <20060621182933.GB30626@tiflolinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Operating-System: Linux tiflolinux.org 2.4.20-8 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.603 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.051, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_NJABL_DUL=1.946] X-Spam-Score: -0.603 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 18:16:58 -0000 ----- Forwarded message from "Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez" ----- Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 20:27:51 +0200 From: "Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez" To: ben mustill-rose Subject: Re: Gnopernicus Not talking on ubuntu 6.06 desktop User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i Hi all Ben, the problem with Gnopernicus not speaking at startup is a question of the sound system, not availability on sound system when Gnopernicus start, so speech is disabled. You can quit gnopernicus by presing alt + q and then restaring it again by pressing alt + f2 and then typing gnopernicus plus enter key. I don't know Hal, so I can give you ore detail about differents. You can change speech settings by pressing 0 + 8 in the numeric keypad, so you can hear "layer 8" and then use 4 and 6 numeric keypad to decrease/increase speech rate, 7 and 9 for volume and 1 or 3 for pitch. All the functionality of Gnopernicus screen reader is based on the numeric keypad, and based in layers. So you have 10 layers with differents functions. Press 00 for layer 0, 01 for layer 1 and so. Hope this help Regards, Javier. On Wed, Jun 21, 2006 at 01:48:41PM +0100, ben mustill-rose wrote: > Hi. > > I installed ubuntu 6.06 desktop on a laptop some time ago and with > that i downloaded speech since i'm blind. > The thing is, half the time when i log in, it doesn't talk. To fix > this, i will have to restart the computer again and again. > There doesn't seem to be any patton regarding how many times i have to > restart, which is kinda annoying. > When it does start talking, its to slow, is there a hotkey to change the speech? > And lastly, is there anything that i should kno if i am moving from > hal to gnopernicus? > Any help would be great, i'm new to linux so i dunno if i gave all the > right info, but if not, just ask. > KR, BEN. > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list -- Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez mailto:javier@tiflolinux.org ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez mailto:javier@tiflolinux.org From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Fri Jun 23 10:54:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22CE23B087B for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 10:54:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18849-01 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 10:54:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.187]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B02B03B08E6 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 10:54:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id h2so91379nfe for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 07:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.4.17 with SMTP id g17mr2514299nfi; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 07:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.30.13 with HTTP; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 07:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 15:54:14 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" Sender: skating.tortoise@gmail.com To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, ubuntu-accessibility Subject: Re: Slow keys dialog In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: X-Google-Sender-Auth: f682d046db45120e X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.446 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.154, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.446 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 14:54:18 -0000 I've implemented sticky keys in my onscreen keyboard. When shift is stuck down it causes the slow keys dialogue to appear. Is there a way to suppress this dialog whilst my app is running? thanks -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Fri Jun 23 11:07:43 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4C2D3B0321 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 11:07:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19442-07 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 11:07:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.185]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B36483B08E6 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 11:07:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id h2so93351nfe for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 08:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.4.17 with SMTP id g17mr2523841nfi; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 08:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.30.13 with HTTP; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 08:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 16:07:39 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, ubuntu-accessibility Subject: Re: Slow keys dialog In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 15:07:43 -0000 I've implemented sticky keys in my onscreen keyboard. When shift is stuck down it causes the slow keys dialogue to appear. Is there a way to suppress this dialog whilst my app is running? thanks -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From enrico@enricozini.org Sat Jun 24 07:13:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F0053B02C1; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 07:13:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09160-07; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 07:13:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from maya.ngi.it (maya.ngi.it [88.149.128.3]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45FC13B006E; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 07:13:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (81-174-12-206.f5.ngi.it [81.174.12.206]) by maya.ngi.it (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5OBDf7s005708; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 13:13:41 +0200 Received: from enrico by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1Fu64i-0006Mo-Ds; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 12:13:16 +0100 Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 12:13:16 +0100 From: Enrico Zini To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org Subject: Fixing gnome-speech Message-ID: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ibTvN161/egqYuK8" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060403 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.014, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 11:13:47 -0000 --ibTvN161/egqYuK8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, I'm trying to look more into the problems I'm having with the speech support on Dapper (see my mail with subject "Fixing brittle speech support on Dapper" from June, 10th, which strangely isn't showing up in the archives at http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-accessibility-list/200= 6-June/thread.html). I started reading through gnome-speech source code. I noticed that it runs festival as a server and talks to it. This makes us have a screen reader that talks CORBA to a server that talks TCP/IP to another server who then does the synthesis. That's too many passages in which something can go wrong. Instinctively, I'm considering rewriting the festival driver to using the C API rather than the festival server. The C API of Festival is just as simple as this: http://rafb.net/paste/results/I7trk068.html I'll look into it a bit more, writing some test code to talk to the CORBA festival driver as well as test code for the festival C/C++ API, so that I can gain familiarity with both things. Any reasons why this hasn't been done yet? In the meantime, however, before I hurt my brain too much with this, what's the overall situation? Is it worth the effort of fixing gnome-speech, or is the effort better spend on making something else work? I'm already quite frustrated of not getting any sort of answer on the list for this problem that is getting me totally stuck (and thank Luke Yelavich for mora support on IRC), and I don't know how I would cope if I spent time and effort on this just to hear as soon as I've finished that everyone's moving to speech-dispatcher or some other kind of a totally different technology. If it's not worth spending efforts on gnome-speech, please let me know what I can use to replace it, since it doesn't work for me. Ciao, Enrico --=20 GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini --ibTvN161/egqYuK8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEnR5M9LSwzHl+v6sRAvfXAJ96YsbY8wqms77UDb9GCEEkTBctXgCdHWgz kdeLwfWldHDFD8gNgZRK8LU= =0xvb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ibTvN161/egqYuK8-- From javier@tiflolinux.org Sat Jun 24 16:21:09 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E13E43B00A5 for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 16:21:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01623-02 for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 16:21:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tiflolinux.org (unknown [82.158.40.139]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FC433B006E for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 16:21:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (uid 503) by tiflolinux.org with local; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 22:32:16 +0200 id 0004BEAB.449DA150.0000373E Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 22:32:16 +0200 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Fco=2E_Javier_Dorado_Mart=EDnez?=" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Gnopernicus Not talking on ubuntu 6.06 desktop]] Message-ID: <20060624203216.GB14113@tiflolinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Operating-System: Linux tiflolinux.org 2.4.20-8 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.608 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.045, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_NJABL_DUL=1.946] X-Spam-Score: -0.608 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 20:21:09 -0000 ----- Forwarded message from "Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez" ----- Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 22:30:11 +0200 From: "Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez" To: ben mustill-rose Subject: Re: Gnopernicus Not talking on ubuntu 6.06 desktop] User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i Hi all To avoid gnome-panel crashes first open a terminal by running gnome-terminal at the run dialog (alt + f2). Then type gnopernicus& Then no problems with the panel. Regards, Javier. On Sat, Jun 24, 2006 at 08:39:31PM +0100, ben mustill-rose wrote: > Hi all and sorry for not replying sooner. > > I tried the thing where you type gnopernicus into the run type box, > and that does make it talk, but only to say that there is a error with > gnome panel. > I clicked inform developers, but i dunno if it did it, because it > stopped talking. > It also stops talking when i click restart program or close. > I am doing a re install of ubuntu atm, so i'll see if this fixes it. > Thanks for the explanation about the way that the layers work and your > suggestion about the problem; i don't think it would have anything to > do with the sound system as it makes the startup& login sounds > everytime regardless of whether it talks or not. > Thanks, > > BEN. > > On 21/06/06, Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez wrote: > >----- Forwarded message from "Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez" > > ----- > > > >Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 20:27:51 +0200 > >From: "Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez" > >To: ben mustill-rose > >Subject: Re: Gnopernicus Not talking on ubuntu 6.06 desktop > >User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i > > > >Hi all > > > >Ben, the problem with Gnopernicus not speaking at startup is a question of > >the sound system, not availability on sound system when Gnopernicus start, > >so speech is disabled. > >You can quit gnopernicus by presing alt + q and then restaring it again by > >pressing alt + f2 and then typing gnopernicus plus enter key. > > > >I don't know Hal, so I can give you ore detail about differents. You can > >change speech settings by pressing 0 + 8 in the numeric keypad, so you can > >hear "layer 8" and then use 4 and 6 numeric keypad to decrease/increase > >speech rate, 7 and 9 for volume and 1 or 3 for pitch. > >All the functionality of Gnopernicus screen reader is based on the numeric > >keypad, and based in layers. So you have 10 layers with differents > >functions. Press 00 for layer 0, 01 for layer 1 and so. > > > >Hope this help > > > >Regards, > > > >Javier. > >On Wed, Jun 21, 2006 at 01:48:41PM +0100, ben mustill-rose wrote: > >> Hi. > >> > >> I installed ubuntu 6.06 desktop on a laptop some time ago and with > >> that i downloaded speech since i'm blind. > >> The thing is, half the time when i log in, it doesn't talk. To fix > >> this, i will have to restart the computer again and again. > >> There doesn't seem to be any patton regarding how many times i have to > >> restart, which is kinda annoying. > >> When it does start talking, its to slow, is there a hotkey to change the > >speech? > >> And lastly, is there anything that i should kno if i am moving from > >> hal to gnopernicus? > >> Any help would be great, i'm new to linux so i dunno if i gave all the > >> right info, but if not, just ask. > >> KR, BEN. > >> _______________________________________________ > >> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > >> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > >-- > >Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez > >mailto:javier@tiflolinux.org > > > >----- End forwarded message ----- > > > >-- > >Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez > >mailto:javier@tiflolinux.org > >_______________________________________________ > >gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > >gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > >http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > -- Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez mailto:javier@tiflolinux.org ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez mailto:javier@tiflolinux.org From ashutoshsharma@gmail.com Mon Jun 26 03:19:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECE8A3B00FA for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 03:19:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29011-07 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 03:19:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.182]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 181A23B0174 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 03:19:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id i49so1476020pyi for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 00:19:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.88.18 with SMTP id q18mr5652864pyl; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 00:19:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.41.6 with HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 00:19:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <79693c1a0606260019j408974efg8d1b36465a6b56cb@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:49:27 +0530 From: "Ashu Sharma" To: kde-accessibility@kde.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Use of gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' on KDE ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2506_29911772.1151306367960" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.399 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.399 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 07:19:34 -0000 ------=_Part_2506_29911772.1151306367960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi, There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather than putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI (to avoid dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear as to what was finally decided. On a related note, is the gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE too, to set or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a system? Or, is it used only on GNOME? Thanks, Ashutosh ------=_Part_2506_29911772.1151306367960 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
Hi,
 
There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather than putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI (to avoid dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear as to what was finally decided.
 
On a related note, is the gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE too, to set or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a system? Or, is it used only on GNOME?
 
Thanks,
Ashutosh
------=_Part_2506_29911772.1151306367960-- From cerha@brailcom.org Mon Jun 26 05:14:08 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEB423B0124 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:14:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04293-07 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:14:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gate.brailcom.cz (158-84-244-84.strcechy.adsl-llu.static.bluetone.cz [84.244.84.158]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B77673B01A8 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:14:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 11545 invoked from network); 26 Jun 2006 10:52:49 +0200 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.15.2?) (192.168.15.2) by ns.brailcom.xx with SMTP; 26 Jun 2006 10:52:49 +0200 Message-ID: <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:14:01 +0200 From: Tomas Cerha Organization: Brailcom, o.p.s. User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> In-Reply-To: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.483 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.878, BAYES_20=-0.74, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -1.483 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 09:14:09 -0000 Enrico Zini wrote: > Hello, > In the meantime, however, before I hurt my brain too much with this, > what's the overall situation? Is it worth the effort of fixing > gnome-speech, or is the effort better spend on making something else > work? Hi Enrico, I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, this may be essential for some people and the Orca -> Gnome Speech -> Speech Dispatcher -> synthesizer aproach has inherent problems. This might solve your problem too. Please, see also the common "TTS API" draft at http://www.freebsoft.org/tts-api. This is a common effort of Free Desktop and FSG. Best regards, Tomas -- Brailcom, o.p.s. http://www.brailcom.org Free(b)soft project http://www.freebsoft.org Eurochance project http://eurochance.brailcom.org From themuso@themuso.com Mon Jun 26 05:17:21 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 622303B0199 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:17:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04696-01 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:17:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vscan02.westnet.com.au (vscan02.westnet.com.au [203.10.1.132]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BF373B009A for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:17:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB27411DE38 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:17:17 +0800 (WST) Received: from vscan02.westnet.com.au ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (vscan02.westnet.com.au [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08941-12 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:17:17 +0800 (WST) Received: from themuso.com (dsl-202-173-132-131.nsw.westnet.com.au [202.173.132.131]) by vscan02.westnet.com.au (Postfix) with SMTP id 903AA11DE2D for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:17:17 +0800 (WST) Received: (nullmailer pid 16386 invoked by uid 1000); Mon, 26 Jun 2006 09:17:22 -0000 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 19:17:22 +1000 From: Luke Yelavich To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech Message-ID: <20060626091722.GA16369@themuso.com> References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="0F1p//8PRICkK4MW" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.42 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.044, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.42 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 09:17:21 -0000 --0F1p//8PRICkK4MW Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jun 26, 2006 at 07:14:01PM EST, Tomas Cerha wrote: > Hi Enrico, >=20 > I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This > bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher > offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, Mind I ask when this is likely to be completed? We in the Ubuntu=20 accessibility team are intending to switch to orca as the primary screen=20 reader for Ubuntu, and would like to replace gnome-speech with=20 speech-dispatcher as the back-end of choice for speech output, due to a=20 few other things we have in the pipeline. If you would like testers, I would be happy to put my hand up and try. Thanks in advance. --=20 Luke Yelavich GPG key: 0xD06320CE=20 (http://www.themuso.com/themuso-gpg-key.txt) Email & MSN: themuso@themuso.com ICQ: 18444344 Jabber: themuso@jabber.org.au --0F1p//8PRICkK4MW Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEn6YijVefwtBjIM4RAohUAJ9bFCUPjukVXuVxUuLc520zyq0wlwCgwrt9 hmTb/aJktGYao3cCYYeBSVs= =oGv9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0F1p//8PRICkK4MW-- From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 06:10:08 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 733133B009A for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 06:10:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08484-07 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 06:10:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDDAD3B002A for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 06:10:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5QA9xFH003901 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 04:10:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1G00301PGS57@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:09:59 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-202.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.202]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1G00ISBPKN45@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:09:59 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:11:10 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [Kde-accessibility] Use of gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' on KDE ? In-reply-to: <79693c1a0606260019j408974efg8d1b36465a6b56cb@mail.gmail.com> To: Ashu Sharma Message-id: <1151316670.7079.6.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <79693c1a0606260019j408974efg8d1b36465a6b56cb@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.576 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.022, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.576 X-Spam-Level: Cc: kde-accessibility@kde.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:10:08 -0000 On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:19, Ashu Sharma wrote: > Hi, > > There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather than > putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI (to avoid > dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear as to what > was finally decided. If KDE writes to ATK, it makes the job easier in a number of ways (at the cost of introducing a glib dependency, but hiding other gnome-ish dependencies). However, the AT-SPI layer requires CORBA in order to function, so in order to actually expose useful information to our assistive technologies, an application must LD_PRELOAD the "atk-bridge" module which bridges from ATK to AT-SPI's CORBA IPC. I think this is the most effective thing to do for the time being (preload atk-bridge), since it doesn't introduce a CORBA dependency on the KDE apps (only a soft runtime dependency). The AT-SPI assistive technology clients cannot work without the AT-SPI/ORBit2/etc. libraries being present on the system anyhow, so from a practical perspective this is the minimum current dependency situation. There's another environment variable you can look for if you don't want to use gconf; GTK_MODULES. Of course that's still quite a gnome/gtk+-ish variable and arguably not appropriate to KDE anyhow, so it might be cleaner just to spawn a gconf-client executable and parse the output, in order to detect whether assistive technology support is desired or not. Also, soon there will be a slightly different mechanism for detecting the presence of the AT-SPI registry - it will place an IOR as an Xatom on the root DISPLAY window. This means you can find it without using bonobo-activation. regards Bill > > On a related note, is the gconf > key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE too, to set > or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a system? Or, is > it used only on GNOME? > > Thanks, > Ashutosh > > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > kde-accessibility mailing list > kde-accessibility@kde.org > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility From ashutoshsharma@gmail.com Mon Jun 26 08:30:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDB6F3B0175 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:30:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17354-05 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:30:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.178]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 282313B0279 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:30:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id i49so1548987pyi for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:30:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.51.13 with SMTP id d13mr5906514pyk; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:30:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.41.6 with HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:30:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <79693c1a0606260530x71d11d9dic7cfd6bb6974a1ad@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:00:08 +0530 From: "Ashu Sharma" To: "Bill Haneman" Subject: Re: [Kde-accessibility] Use of gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' on KDE ? In-Reply-To: <1151316670.7079.6.camel@linux.site> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_5856_6313645.1151325008992" References: <79693c1a0606260019j408974efg8d1b36465a6b56cb@mail.gmail.com> <1151316670.7079.6.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.487 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.088, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.487 X-Spam-Level: Cc: kde-accessibility@kde.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:30:13 -0000 ------=_Part_5856_6313645.1151325008992 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 6/26/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:19, Ashu Sharma wrote: > > Hi, > > > > There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather than > > putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI (to avoid > > dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear as to what > > was finally decided. > > If KDE writes to ATK, it makes the job easier in a number of ways (at > the cost of introducing a glib dependency, but hiding other gnome-ish > dependencies). However, the AT-SPI layer requires CORBA in order to > function, so in order to actually expose useful information to our > assistive technologies, an application must LD_PRELOAD the "atk-bridge" > module which bridges from ATK to AT-SPI's CORBA IPC. > > I think this is the most effective thing to do for the time being > (preload atk-bridge), since it doesn't introduce a CORBA dependency on > the KDE apps (only a soft runtime dependency). The AT-SPI assistive > technology clients cannot work without the AT-SPI/ORBit2/etc. libraries > being present on the system anyhow, so from a practical perspective this > is the minimum current dependency situation. > > There's another environment variable you can look for if you don't want > to use gconf; GTK_MODULES. Of course that's still quite a > gnome/gtk+-ish variable and arguably not appropriate to KDE anyhow, so > it might be cleaner just to spawn a gconf-client executable and parse > the output, in order to detect whether assistive technology support is > desired or not. Also, soon there will be a slightly different mechanism > for detecting the presence of the AT-SPI registry - it will place an IOR > as an Xatom on the root DISPLAY window. This means you can find it > without using bonobo-activation. > > regards > > Bill > > > > > On a related note, is the gconf > > key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE too, to set > > or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a system? Or, is > > it used only on GNOME? > > > > Thanks, > > Ashutosh > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > kde-accessibility mailing list > > kde-accessibility@kde.org > > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility > > Bill, Thanks for these details. I am actually wondering about the current state of KDE accessibility - whether AT clients under KDE currently depend on gnome/gconf libraries (especially if they use the gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' to enable AT support). Thanks, Ashutosh ------=_Part_5856_6313645.1151325008992 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 6/26/06, Bill Haneman <Bill.Haneman@sun.com> wrote:
On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:19, Ashu Sharma wrote:
> Hi,
>
> There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather than
> putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI (to avoid
> dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear as to what
> was finally decided.

If KDE writes to ATK, it makes the job easier in a number of ways (at
the cost of introducing a glib dependency, but hiding other gnome-ish
dependencies).  However, the AT-SPI layer requires CORBA in order to
function, so in order to actually expose useful information to our
assistive technologies, an application must LD_PRELOAD the "atk-bridge"
module which bridges from ATK to AT-SPI's CORBA IPC.

I think this is the most effective thing to do for the time being
(preload atk-bridge), since it doesn't introduce a CORBA dependency on
the KDE apps (only a soft runtime dependency).  The AT-SPI assistive
technology clients cannot work without the AT-SPI/ORBit2/etc. libraries
being present on the system anyhow, so from a practical perspective this
is the minimum current dependency situation.

There's another environment variable you can look for if you don't want
to use gconf; GTK_MODULES.  Of course that's still quite a
gnome/gtk+-ish variable and arguably not appropriate to KDE anyhow, so
it might be cleaner just to spawn a gconf-client executable and parse
the output, in order to detect whether assistive technology support is
desired or not.  Also, soon there will be a slightly different mechanism
for detecting the presence of the AT-SPI registry - it will place an IOR
as an Xatom on the root DISPLAY window.  This means you can find it
without using bonobo-activation.

regards

Bill

>
> On a related note, is the gconf
> key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE too, to set
> or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a system? Or, is
> it used only on GNOME?
>
> Thanks,
> Ashutosh
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> kde-accessibility mailing list
> kde-accessibility@kde.org
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility



Bill,
Thanks for these details.
I am actually wondering about the current state of KDE accessibility - whether AT clients under KDE currently depend on gnome/gconf libraries (especially if they use the gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' to enable AT support) .
Thanks,
Ashutosh
------=_Part_5856_6313645.1151325008992-- From enrico@enricozini.org Mon Jun 26 08:44:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCDA03B0387; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:44:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18426-01; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:44:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from maya.ngi.it (maya.ngi.it [88.149.128.3]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87FC23B02F7; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:44:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (81-174-12-206.f5.ngi.it [81.174.12.206]) by maya.ngi.it (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5QCihKc011937; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:44:43 +0200 Received: from enrico by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FuqNo-0003eT-1a; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:40:04 +0100 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:40:03 +0100 From: Enrico Zini To: Tomas Cerha Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech Message-ID: <20060626124003.GA13572@viaza> Mail-Followup-To: Tomas Cerha , gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060403 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.456 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.008, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.456 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:44:48 -0000 --NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jun 26, 2006 at 11:14:01AM +0200, Tomas Cerha wrote: > I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This > bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher > offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, this > may be essential for some people and the Orca -> Gnome Speech -> Speech > Dispatcher -> synthesizer aproach has inherent problems. This might > solve your problem too. >=20 > Please, see also the common "TTS API" draft at > http://www.freebsoft.org/tts-api. This is a common effort of Free > Desktop and FSG. Cool. Is there a way I can use all of this right now on Dapper? Ciao, Enrico --=20 GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini --NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEn9Wj9LSwzHl+v6sRAofUAJ9rGqFPNo5F+9EKH1UOKSt32EG0nwCfZZUp 64toiGSrN/swh06OHchQyCY= =hVic -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh-- From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 10:48:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA3BA3B046B for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:48:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25602-07 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:48:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 398A83B0379 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:48:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5QEmdiJ024863 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:48:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1H008012BMA0@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:48:39 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-202.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.202]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1H008072H345@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:48:39 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:49:51 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com Message-id: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.577 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.577 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:48:49 -0000 Hi Chris: The answer is, "don't implement sticky keys in your keyboard". You should be using the system-wide StickyKeys settings and feature instead (as GOK does). Interfering with the normal operation of the system wide setting (i.e clashing with it as your app does), is itself an accessibility violation. (There are several gconf keys you can use to turn sticky keys on and off - see those under /desktop/gnome/accessibility/keyboard) Bill > I've implemented sticky keys in my onscreen keyboard. When shift is > stuck down it causes the slow keys dialogue to appear. Is there a way > to suppress this dialog whilst my app is running? > > thanks > > > -- > Chris Jones From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 11:21:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83D7D3B0135 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:21:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27817-09 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:21:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A48F3B02BF for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:21:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5QFLalF005098 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 09:21:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1H005013V76K@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:21:36 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-202.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.202]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1H008O33ZZ45@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:21:36 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:22:47 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [Kde-accessibility] Use of gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' on KDE ? In-reply-to: <79693c1a0606260530x71d11d9dic7cfd6bb6974a1ad@mail.gmail.com> To: Ashu Sharma Message-id: <1151335367.7079.40.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <79693c1a0606260019j408974efg8d1b36465a6b56cb@mail.gmail.com> <1151316670.7079.6.camel@linux.site> <79693c1a0606260530x71d11d9dic7cfd6bb6974a1ad@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.577 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.577 X-Spam-Level: Cc: kde-accessibility@kde.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:21:46 -0000 Hi Ashu: Currently the state of KDE accessibility is somewhat limited. Other than some important theming and keyboard-navigation support, which does not require a complex interface such as AT-SPI, there are only a few useful utilities like KMag, KMouth, and KMousetool. While these are nice utilities, they aren't enough to allow users who cannot use a keyboard at all, or who are blind or have very limited vision, to use KDE. We have three working screen readers (for blind users) for the free desktop now; gnopernicus, orca, and LSR. For users who cannot use a keyboard, we have GOK and Dasher. All of these technologies require the full power of the AT-SPI interfaces, and thus require the ORBit2 CORBA stack in order to work. The gconf key you mention is for determining whether support for such full-features assistive technologies should be enabled or not. When KDE/Qt applications provide full-featured accessibility services, as is planned for Qt4, then those services can be bridged to AT-SPI, making those applications available to screen readers and other sorts of "user interface adapting" assistive technologies. While it would be possible to write a "KDE" screen reader or KDE onscreen keyboard for severely disable users (for instance users who cannot even 'point and click' reliably), I don't think it would be the best use of our resources. Technologies like Orca are intended to work with AT-SPI-enabled KDE apps just as they work with applications like OpenOffice, Java apps, Firefox, and other applications today, not just "gnome". By writing Orca scripts for popular KDE applications, the KDE desktop, and by fixing the inevitable bugs in KDE's keyboard navigation and accessibility support, a modest amount of development effort can go further to benefit disabled users. best regards Bill On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 13:30, Ashu Sharma wrote: > On 6/26/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:19, Ashu Sharma wrote: > > Hi, > > > > There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather > than > > putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI > (to avoid > > dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear > as to what > > was finally decided. > > If KDE writes to ATK, it makes the job easier in a number of > ways (at > the cost of introducing a glib dependency, but hiding other > gnome-ish > dependencies). However, the AT-SPI layer requires CORBA in > order to > function, so in order to actually expose useful information to > our > assistive technologies, an application must LD_PRELOAD the > "atk-bridge" > module which bridges from ATK to AT-SPI's CORBA IPC. > > I think this is the most effective thing to do for the time > being > (preload atk-bridge), since it doesn't introduce a CORBA > dependency on > the KDE apps (only a soft runtime dependency). The AT-SPI > assistive > technology clients cannot work without the AT-SPI/ORBit2/etc. > libraries > being present on the system anyhow, so from a practical > perspective this > is the minimum current dependency situation. > > There's another environment variable you can look for if you > don't want > to use gconf; GTK_MODULES. Of course that's still quite a > gnome/gtk+-ish variable and arguably not appropriate to KDE > anyhow, so > it might be cleaner just to spawn a gconf-client executable > and parse > the output, in order to detect whether assistive technology > support is > desired or not. Also, soon there will be a slightly different > mechanism > for detecting the presence of the AT-SPI registry - it will > place an IOR > as an Xatom on the root DISPLAY window. This means you can > find it > without using bonobo-activation. > > regards > > Bill > > > > > On a related note, is the gconf > > key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE > too, to set > > or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a > system? Or, is > > it used only on GNOME? > > > > Thanks, > > Ashutosh > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > kde-accessibility mailing list > > kde-accessibility@kde.org > > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility > > > > Bill, > Thanks for these details. > I am actually wondering about the current state of KDE accessibility - > whether AT clients under KDE currently depend on gnome/gconf libraries > (especially if they use the gconf key > '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' to enable AT support) . > Thanks, > Ashutosh > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > kde-accessibility mailing list > kde-accessibility@kde.org > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility From ashutoshsharma@gmail.com Mon Jun 26 11:43:04 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 801FA3B03F3 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:43:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29596-02 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:43:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.179]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74DD33B03BC for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:43:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id d42so1560606pyd for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.60.16 with SMTP id n16mr4625437pyk; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.41.6 with HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <79693c1a0606260843s8c12ba3v75e72b38a712f3c1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:13:00 +0530 From: "Ashu Sharma" To: "Bill Haneman" Subject: Re: [Kde-accessibility] Use of gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' on KDE ? In-Reply-To: <1151335367.7079.40.camel@linux.site> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_217_32816475.1151336580471" References: <79693c1a0606260019j408974efg8d1b36465a6b56cb@mail.gmail.com> <1151316670.7079.6.camel@linux.site> <79693c1a0606260530x71d11d9dic7cfd6bb6974a1ad@mail.gmail.com> <1151335367.7079.40.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.239 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.336, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, HTML_40_50=0.496, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.239 X-Spam-Level: Cc: kde-accessibility@kde.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:43:04 -0000 ------=_Part_217_32816475.1151336580471 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 6/26/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > Hi Ashu: > > Currently the state of KDE accessibility is somewhat limited. Other > than some important theming and keyboard-navigation support, which does > not require a complex interface such as AT-SPI, there are only a few > useful utilities like KMag, KMouth, and KMousetool. While these are > nice utilities, they aren't enough to allow users who cannot use a > keyboard at all, or who are blind or have very limited vision, to use > KDE. > > We have three working screen readers (for blind users) for the free > desktop now; gnopernicus, orca, and LSR. For users who cannot use a > keyboard, we have GOK and Dasher. All of these technologies require the > full power of the AT-SPI interfaces, and thus require the ORBit2 CORBA > stack in order to work. The gconf key you mention is for determining > whether support for such full-features assistive technologies should be > enabled or not. > > When KDE/Qt applications provide full-featured accessibility services, > as is planned for Qt4, then those services can be bridged to AT-SPI, > making those applications available to screen readers and other sorts of > "user interface adapting" assistive technologies. > > While it would be possible to write a "KDE" screen reader or KDE > onscreen keyboard for severely disable users (for instance users who > cannot even 'point and click' reliably), I don't think it would be the > best use of our resources. Technologies like Orca are intended to work > with AT-SPI-enabled KDE apps just as they work with applications like > OpenOffice, Java apps, Firefox, and other applications today, not just > "gnome". By writing Orca scripts for popular KDE applications, the KDE > desktop, and by fixing the inevitable bugs in KDE's keyboard navigation > and accessibility support, a modest amount of development effort can go > further to benefit disabled users. > > best regards > > Bill > > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 13:30, Ashu Sharma wrote: > > On 6/26/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:19, Ashu Sharma wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather > > than > > > putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI > > (to avoid > > > dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear > > as to what > > > was finally decided. > > > > If KDE writes to ATK, it makes the job easier in a number of > > ways (at > > the cost of introducing a glib dependency, but hiding other > > gnome-ish > > dependencies). However, the AT-SPI layer requires CORBA in > > order to > > function, so in order to actually expose useful information to > > our > > assistive technologies, an application must LD_PRELOAD the > > "atk-bridge" > > module which bridges from ATK to AT-SPI's CORBA IPC. > > > > I think this is the most effective thing to do for the time > > being > > (preload atk-bridge), since it doesn't introduce a CORBA > > dependency on > > the KDE apps (only a soft runtime dependency). The AT-SPI > > assistive > > technology clients cannot work without the AT-SPI/ORBit2/etc. > > libraries > > being present on the system anyhow, so from a practical > > perspective this > > is the minimum current dependency situation. > > > > There's another environment variable you can look for if you > > don't want > > to use gconf; GTK_MODULES. Of course that's still quite a > > gnome/gtk+-ish variable and arguably not appropriate to KDE > > anyhow, so > > it might be cleaner just to spawn a gconf-client executable > > and parse > > the output, in order to detect whether assistive technology > > support is > > desired or not. Also, soon there will be a slightly different > > mechanism > > for detecting the presence of the AT-SPI registry - it will > > place an IOR > > as an Xatom on the root DISPLAY window. This means you can > > find it > > without using bonobo-activation. > > > > regards > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > On a related note, is the gconf > > > key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE > > too, to set > > > or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a > > system? Or, is > > > it used only on GNOME? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Ashutosh > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > kde-accessibility mailing list > > > kde-accessibility@kde.org > > > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility > > > > > > > > Bill, > > Thanks for these details. > > I am actually wondering about the current state of KDE accessibility - > > whether AT clients under KDE currently depend on gnome/gconf libraries > > (especially if they use the gconf key > > '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' to enable AT support) . > > Thanks, > > Ashutosh > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > kde-accessibility mailing list > > kde-accessibility@kde.org > > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility > > Hi Bill, These details are really useful. Thanks! I suppose things will get much better on KDE after Qt4 or with more application specific Orca scripts. Thanks, Ashu ------=_Part_217_32816475.1151336580471 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
On 6/26/06, Bill Haneman <Bill.Haneman@sun.com> wrote:
Hi Ashu:

Currently the state of KDE accessibility is somewhat limited.  Other
than some important theming and keyboard-navigation support, which does
not require a complex interface such as AT-SPI, there are only a few
useful utilities like KMag, KMouth, and KMousetool.  While these are
nice utilities, they aren't enough to allow users who cannot use a
keyboard at all, or who are blind or have very limited vision, to use
KDE.

We have three working screen readers (for blind users) for the free
desktop now; gnopernicus, orca, and LSR.  For users who cannot use a
keyboard, we have GOK and Dasher.  All of these technologies require the
full power of the AT-SPI interfaces, and thus require the ORBit2 CORBA
stack in order to work.  The gconf key you mention is for determining
whether support for such full-features assistive technologies should be
enabled or not.

When KDE/Qt applications provide full-featured accessibility services,
as is planned for Qt4, then those services can be bridged to AT-SPI,
making those applications available to screen readers and other sorts of
"user interface adapting" assistive technologies.

While it would be possible to write a "KDE" screen reader or KDE
onscreen keyboard for severely disable users (for instance users who
cannot even 'point and click' reliably), I don't think it would be the
best use of our resources.  Technologies like Orca are intended to work
with AT-SPI-enabled KDE apps just as they work with applications like
OpenOffice, Java apps, Firefox, and other applications today, not just
"gnome".  By writing Orca scripts for popular KDE applications, the KDE
desktop, and by fixing the inevitable bugs in KDE's keyboard navigation
and accessibility support, a modest amount of development effort can go
further to benefit disabled users.

best regards

Bill

On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 13:30, Ashu Sharma wrote:
> On 6/26/06, Bill Haneman < Bill.Haneman@sun.com> wrote:
>         On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:19, Ashu Sharma wrote:
>         > Hi,
>         >
>         > There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather
>         than
>         > putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI
>         (to avoid
>         > dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear
>         as to what
>         > was finally decided.
>
>         If KDE writes to ATK, it makes the job easier in a number of
>         ways (at
>         the cost of introducing a glib dependency, but hiding other
>         gnome-ish
>         dependencies).  However, the AT-SPI layer requires CORBA in
>         order to
>         function, so in order to actually expose useful information to
>         our
>         assistive technologies, an application must LD_PRELOAD the
>         "atk-bridge"
>         module which bridges from ATK to AT-SPI's CORBA IPC.
>
>         I think this is the most effective thing to do for the time
>         being
>         (preload atk-bridge), since it doesn't introduce a CORBA
>         dependency on
>         the KDE apps (only a soft runtime dependency).  The AT-SPI
>         assistive
>         technology clients cannot work without the AT-SPI/ORBit2/etc.
>         libraries
>         being present on the system anyhow, so from a practical
>         perspective this
>         is the minimum current dependency situation.
>
>         There's another environment variable you can look for if you
>         don't want
>         to use gconf; GTK_MODULES.  Of course that's still quite a
>         gnome/gtk+-ish variable and arguably not appropriate to KDE
>         anyhow, so
>         it might be cleaner just to spawn a gconf-client executable
>         and parse
>         the output, in order to detect whether assistive technology
>         support is
>         desired or not.  Also, soon there will be a slightly different
>         mechanism
>         for detecting the presence of the AT-SPI registry - it will
>         place an IOR
>         as an Xatom on the root DISPLAY window.  This means you can
>         find it
>         without using bonobo-activation.
>
>         regards
>
>         Bill
>
>         >
>         > On a related note, is the gconf
>         > key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE
>         too, to set
>         > or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a
>         system? Or, is
>         > it used only on GNOME?
>         >
>         > Thanks,
>         > Ashutosh
>         >
>         >
>         ______________________________________________________________________
>         > _______________________________________________
>         > kde-accessibility mailing list
>         > kde-accessibility@kde.org
>         > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility
>
>
>
> Bill,
> Thanks for these details.
> I am actually wondering about the current state of KDE accessibility -
> whether AT clients under KDE currently depend on gnome/gconf libraries
> (especially if they use the gconf key
> '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' to enable AT support) .
> Thanks,
> Ashutosh
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> kde-accessibility mailing list
> kde-accessibility@kde.org
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility


Hi Bill,
 
These details are really useful. Thanks!
I suppose things will get much better on KDE after Qt4 or with more application specific Orca scripts.
 
Thanks,
Ashu
------=_Part_217_32816475.1151336580471-- From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Mon Jun 26 16:33:58 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99BB63B031D for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:33:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14290-03 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:33:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.205]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BC1E3B008B for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:33:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 13so1437074nzp for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:33:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.138.19 with SMTP id l19mr1632308nzd; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:33:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.73.15 with HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:33:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:33:56 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" Sender: skating.tortoise@gmail.com To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-Reply-To: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 99b8f1f66b5e77f8 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.395 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.005, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.395 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:33:58 -0000 The sytem-wide StickyKeys is too inflexible for my needs. I have the following gripes: * A user might want the onscreen keyboard to be sticky but not the physical. * It allows me to implement the functionality in a way that is more suitable for an onscreen keyboard. One click sets sticky for one click of a non sticky character, a further click sets sticky until a third click. * The sticky keys dialogue is annoying. A far better way would be to enable it in the preferences, since you must to enable assistive technology support and be notified of it's act/deactivation by a notification bubble. * This is not purely a a11y project. It has other uses, tablet pc's etc. Therefore I wanted a soft dependency on assistive technologies. * GOK's implentation is very unreliable on my system, and not something I particularly want to emulate. I know I should fix these gripes instead of treading my own path. However, this is a Summer of Code project and so I need to produce the expected results before a deadline. In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". Thanks for your time. On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > Hi Chris: > > The answer is, "don't implement sticky keys in your keyboard". You > should be using the system-wide StickyKeys settings and feature instead > (as GOK does). > > Interfering with the normal operation of the system wide setting (i.e > clashing with it as your app does), is itself an accessibility > violation. > > (There are several gconf keys you can use to turn sticky keys on and off > - see those under /desktop/gnome/accessibility/keyboard) > > Bill > > > I've implemented sticky keys in my onscreen keyboard. When shift is > > stuck down it causes the slow keys dialogue to appear. Is there a way > > to suppress this dialog whilst my app is running? > > > > thanks > > > > > > -- > > Chris Jones > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Mon Jun 26 16:43:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3667E3B01E8 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:43:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14968-01 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:43:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.204]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABE423B00F9 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:43:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 13so22255nzn for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:43:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.221.39 with SMTP id t39mr3268556nzg; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:43:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.73.15 with HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:43:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:43:30 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.5 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:43:34 -0000 Thanks for your reply. The system-wide StickyKeys is too inflexible for my needs. I have the following gripes: * A user might want the onscreen keyboard to be sticky but not the physical. * It does not allow me to implement the functionality in a way that is suitable for an onscreen keyboard. My implementations uses one click to set sticky for one click of a non sticky character, a further click sets sticky until a third click or the stuck key. * The sticky keys dialogue is annoying. A far better way would be to enable it in the preferences, since you must to enable assistive technology support and be notified of it's act/deactivation by a notification bubble. * This is not purely a a11y project. It has other uses, tablet PCs etc. Therefore I wanted a soft dependency on assistive technologies. * GOK's implementation is very unreliable on my system, and not something I particularly want to emulate. I know I should fix these gripes instead of treading my own path. However, this is a Summer of Code project and so I need to produce the expected results before a deadline. In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > Hi Chris: > > The answer is, "don't implement sticky keys in your keyboard". You > should be using the system-wide StickyKeys settings and feature instead > (as GOK does). > > Interfering with the normal operation of the system wide setting (i.e > clashing with it as your app does), is itself an accessibility > violation. > > (There are several gconf keys you can use to turn sticky keys on and off > - see those under /desktop/gnome/accessibility/keyboard) > > Bill > > > I've implemented sticky keys in my onscreen keyboard. When shift is > > stuck down it causes the slow keys dialogue to appear. Is there a way > > to suppress this dialog whilst my app is running? > > > > thanks > > > > > > -- > > Chris Jones > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 16:53:02 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8B223B03E8 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:53:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15302-10 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:52:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Sun.COM [192.18.98.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38EB13B031D for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:52:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5QKqvel002689 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:52:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1H00201IWLS9@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:52:57 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-202.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.202]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1H00H7JJC8F4@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:52:57 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:54:08 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: To: Chris Jones Message-id: <1151355248.7079.75.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:53:03 -0000 On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 21:43, Chris Jones wrote: > Thanks for your reply. > > The system-wide StickyKeys is too inflexible for my needs. I have the > following gripes: > * A user might want the onscreen keyboard to be sticky but not the physical. I am not convinced that users will really want this, perhaps this is your opinion. It is still an accessibility violation to interfere with the way the built-in keyboard accessibility features work. > * It does not allow me to implement the functionality in a way that > is suitable for an onscreen keyboard. My implementations uses one > click to set sticky for one > click of a non sticky character, a further click sets sticky until a > third click or the stuck key. The system dialog settings work this way on most systems. > * The sticky keys dialogue is annoying. A far better way would be > to enable it in the preferences, since you must to enable assistive > technology support and be notified of it's act/deactivation by a > notification bubble. You can already turn this off, but it needs to be the default for new desktops/new users, in order to allow users who need it to turn it on via the keyboard shortcuts. > * This is not purely a a11y project. It has other uses, tablet PCs > etc. Therefore I wanted a soft dependency on assistive technologies. The StickyKeys feature is not an assistive technology, per se. However it is a standard platform feature. > * GOK's implementation is very unreliable on my system, and not > something I particularly want to emulate. Have you filed any bug reports? ALL onscreen keyboards will suffer from problems if they use the system core pointer for input, because of pointer grabs which virtually every GUI toolkit does. > I know I should fix these gripes instead of treading my own path. > However, this is a Summer of Code project and so I need to produce the > expected results before a deadline. > > In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". I suggest you use the system gconf keys for sticky keys. regards Bill > > On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > Hi Chris: > > > > The answer is, "don't implement sticky keys in your keyboard". You > > should be using the system-wide StickyKeys settings and feature instead > > (as GOK does). > > > > Interfering with the normal operation of the system wide setting (i.e > > clashing with it as your app does), is itself an accessibility > > violation. > > > > (There are several gconf keys you can use to turn sticky keys on and off > > - see those under /desktop/gnome/accessibility/keyboard) > > > > Bill > > > > > I've implemented sticky keys in my onscreen keyboard. When shift is > > > stuck down it causes the slow keys dialogue to appear. Is there a way > > > to suppress this dialog whilst my app is running? > > > > > > thanks > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Chris Jones > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > -- > Chris Jones > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From henrik@ubuntu.com Mon Jun 26 17:28:25 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 715EE3B00C1 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:28:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17303-03 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:28:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1082A3B00AD for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:28:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.0.10] (henrik.gotadsl.co.uk [82.133.122.11]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D30223788D; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:28:18 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:28:26 +0100 From: Henrik Nilsen Omma User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Jones Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.593 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.006, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.593 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:28:25 -0000 Chris Jones wrote: > ... > > In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". Chris, Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the state internally in SOK? IOW: 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift is clicked again you unset the flag. That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an 'accessibility violation'. Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? - Henrik From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 17:39:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CA353B01FF for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:39:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17635-04 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:39:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2953C3B0157 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:39:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5QLd8Uc010930 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:39:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1H00E01KY47T@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:39:13 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-202.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.202]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1H00HS8LH8F4@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:39:09 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:40:20 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> To: Henrik Nilsen Omma Message-id: <1151358020.7079.77.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:39:27 -0000 On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? Are you going to say something helpful? :-/ Bill > - Henrik > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From henrik@ubuntu.com Mon Jun 26 18:05:10 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24E3B3B038D for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:05:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18852-08 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:05:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E91383B028E for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:05:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.0.10] (henrik.gotadsl.co.uk [82.133.122.11]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4D8A237AE0; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:05:02 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <44A05A17.10107@ubuntu.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:05:11 +0100 From: Henrik Nilsen Omma User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151358020.7079.77.camel@linux.site> In-Reply-To: <1151358020.7079.77.camel@linux.site> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.594 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.005, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.594 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:05:10 -0000 Bill Haneman wrote: > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > > >> Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? >> > > Are you going to say something helpful? > > OK, I should have resisted that last line, sorry. But there is a valid point under the sarcasm, which is: we are trying to make new and better tools here and it is not very helpful to then always refer back to the existing tools which really don't work. - Henrik From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 18:27:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3B5A3B01FF for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:27:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19726-10 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:27:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2271D3B0088 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:27:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5QMRhsc010962 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:27:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1H00701N9XYA@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:27:42 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-202.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.202]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1H00HENNQ6F4@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:27:42 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:28:54 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: <44A05A17.10107@ubuntu.com> To: Henrik Nilsen Omma Message-id: <1151360933.7079.83.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151358020.7079.77.camel@linux.site> <44A05A17.10107@ubuntu.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:27:46 -0000 On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 23:05, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > Bill Haneman wrote: > > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > > > > > >> Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? > >> > > > > Are you going to say something helpful? > > > > > > OK, I should have resisted that last line, sorry. > > But there is a valid point under the sarcasm, which is: > we are trying to > make new and better tools here and it is not very helpful > to then always > refer back to the existing tools which really don't work. You keep saying the existing tools "don't work", but you don't seem to be helping to make them work. 90% of all GOK problems are configuration issues. This is documented in the Gnome Accessibility Guide - mostly it comes down to broken-ness in the way XInput works in most systems out-of-the box. I think in the end we will have to ditch XInput where GOK is concerned, but although several research projects have been carried out to try and identify alternatives, we haven't found one that really fits the bill. Henrik, I thought it was part of your job to do QA and testing of Ubuntu accessibility... so I would hope you would be interested in helping work towards solutions. Building a new onscreen keyboard that doesn't meet the needs of disabled users isn't the right solution in my opinion. Did you even investigate GOK's configurability? I really believe that there are multiple ways in which GOK could have been used to solve the problem you are apparently attempting to solve, but I know for a fact that you didn't have any in-depth discussions with the maintainers. Bill > - Henrik > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 18:38:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC0823B0201 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:38:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20536-04 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:38:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (nwkea-mail-1.sun.com [192.18.42.13]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D43B3B028E for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:38:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5QMch8F017296 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:38:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1H00B01NVL0X@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:38:43 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-202.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.202]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1H00H3VO8IF4@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:38:43 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:39:54 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> To: Henrik Nilsen Omma Message-id: <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:38:46 -0000 On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > Chris Jones wrote: > > ... > > > > In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > > for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > > SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > > fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". > Chris, > > Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the > state internally in SOK? IOW: We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. regards Bill > 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked > SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. > > 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time > the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift > is clicked again you unset the flag. > > That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an > 'accessibility violation'. > > Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? > > - Henrik > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Mon Jun 26 19:51:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E3D03B0011 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 19:51:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23446-08 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 19:51:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.197]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3169F3B00A1 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 19:51:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i1so1971854nzh for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.252.42 with SMTP id z42mr8821381nzh; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.73.15 with HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:51:32 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-Reply-To: <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.495 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.095, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.495 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:51:36 -0000 But this very same thing makes it very awkward who want sticky keys on the keyboard and non-sticky on a physical. Which would be true for all non-a11y users and some a11y users. In the end though the only manner it interferes with my keyboard is the annoying dialogue that pops up, and the average gnome-ally user will probably be plenty used to seeing annoying dialogs anyway. The slow keys dialogue however is another matter though. Normal operations are not resumed until it is dismissed. Which in itself incredibly annoying. When planning the SOK I wanted to stay away from the three odd dialogs that GOK pops up when it is started. The plain fact is I don't want any dialogs when starting SOK. At all. Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely unacceptable. On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > > Chris Jones wrote: > > > ... > > > > > > In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > > > for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > > > SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > > > fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". > > Chris, > > > > Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the > > state internally in SOK? IOW: > > We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. > It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build > an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use > it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. > > If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key > while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is > inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a > problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock > status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you > want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. > > google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's > section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. > > regards > > Bill > > > 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked > > SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. > > > > 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time > > the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift > > is clicked again you unset the flag. > > > > That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an > > 'accessibility violation'. > > > > Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? > > > > - Henrik > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 20:33:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 990BD3B00E4 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:33:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25514-08 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:33:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC7A63B00B9 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:32:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-03.sun.com ([192.18.39.113]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5R0Wp3I018727 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-03.sun.com by d1-sfbay-03.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J1H00101T7TKN00@d1-sfbay-03.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.25.76] by d1-sfbay-03.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J1H0092KTIRRY90@d1-sfbay-03.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:32:50 -0700 From: Peter Korn Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: Chris Jones Message-id: <44A07CB2.4090808@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.539 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.059, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.539 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:33:03 -0000 Hi Chris, I think there are two issues here. Well, three: 1. Can an on-screen keyboard implement "sticky" modifiers without using the system support for sticky modifiers? 2. Can an on-screen keyboard circumvent/disable the system support for sticky modifiers (and slow keys, and...)? 3. Is the right way to "fix" what is "broken" in GOK doing another project rather than working with the existing GOK code to "fix" those "broken" things? I suggest that #3 may be somewhat religious at this point; I'm personally saddened that we aren't at least looking seriously at GOK improvements, but fundamentally a goal of UNIX accessibility is to foster the development of a rich accessibility ecosystem - and a rich ecosystem has room for multiple approaches to similar problems (cf. Orca and Gnopernicus and LSR). I have no issues with #1 - I see no reason why an on-screen keyboard cannot have its own way of making certain modifiers sticky on its own user interface *without* doing so through the system-wide setting mechanisms. Such a decision is I think a valid user-interface policy decision of an individual application. However, it is a direct Section 508 violation for an application to override or ignore system-wide accessibility settings. It is even more egregious for an application that claims to be at least in part for people with disabilities (and thus an 'enlightened' application) to do so. So, my suggestion is that if you simply cannot possible use the system-settings for sticky keys as part of your own UI, that you make things sticky your own way; however that if the system-wide settings are on that you use and respect those (complete with the dialog box that you seem to dislike). Regards, Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. > But this very same thing makes it very awkward who want sticky keys on > the keyboard and non-sticky on a physical. Which would be true for > all non-a11y users and some a11y users. > > In the end though the only manner it interferes with my keyboard is > the annoying dialogue that pops up, and the average gnome-ally user > will probably be plenty used to seeing annoying dialogs anyway. > > The slow keys dialogue however is another matter though. Normal > operations are not resumed until it is dismissed. Which in itself > incredibly annoying. > > When planning the SOK I wanted to stay away from the three odd dialogs > that GOK pops up when it is started. The plain fact is I don't want > any dialogs when starting SOK. At all. > > Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > unacceptable. > > On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > >> On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: >> >>> Chris Jones wrote: >>> >>>> ... >>>> >>>> In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable >>>> for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the >>>> SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and >>>> fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". >>>> >>> Chris, >>> >>> Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the >>> state internally in SOK? IOW: >>> >> We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. >> It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build >> an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use >> it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. >> >> If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key >> while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is >> inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a >> problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock >> status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you >> want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. >> >> google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's >> section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. >> >> regards >> >> Bill >> >> >>> 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked >>> SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. >>> >>> 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time >>> the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift >>> is clicked again you unset the flag. >>> >>> That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an >>> 'accessibility violation'. >>> >>> Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? >>> >>> - Henrik >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >>> >> > > > From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 20:42:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B88403B0319 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:42:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26206-02 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:42:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3F033B02D1 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:42:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-03.sun.com ([192.18.39.113]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5R0gPqD019717 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-03.sun.com by d1-sfbay-03.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J1H00101T7TKN00@d1-sfbay-03.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.25.76] by d1-sfbay-03.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J1H009XQTYLRU70@d1-sfbay-03.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:42:20 -0700 From: Peter Korn Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: <44A07CB2.4090808@sun.com> Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: Chris Jones Message-id: <44A07EEC.1050109@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> <44A07CB2.4090808@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.542 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.056, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.542 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:42:27 -0000 Hi Chris, One more thing. You write: > Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > unacceptable. Have you filed an RFE on this issue (seeking a way to invoke the system-wide Sticky-Keys functionality programatically without the user dialog box), or are you simply trying to "work around it"? I would hope that part of a SoC project is to at least file bugs/RFEs for things you want, even if you "work around them" for the purposes of meeting a project deadline. I would hope that filing bugs/RFEs is part of the purview of SoC projects. Regards, Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. > Hi Chris, > > I think there are two issues here. Well, three: > > 1. Can an on-screen keyboard implement "sticky" modifiers without using > the system support for sticky modifiers? > 2. Can an on-screen keyboard circumvent/disable the system support for > sticky modifiers (and slow keys, and...)? > 3. Is the right way to "fix" what is "broken" in GOK doing another > project rather than working with the existing GOK code to "fix" those > "broken" things? > > I suggest that #3 may be somewhat religious at this point; I'm > personally saddened that we aren't at least looking seriously at GOK > improvements, but fundamentally a goal of UNIX accessibility is to > foster the development of a rich accessibility ecosystem - and a rich > ecosystem has room for multiple approaches to similar problems (cf. Orca > and Gnopernicus and LSR). > > I have no issues with #1 - I see no reason why an on-screen keyboard > cannot have its own way of making certain modifiers sticky on its own > user interface *without* doing so through the system-wide setting > mechanisms. Such a decision is I think a valid user-interface policy > decision of an individual application. > > However, it is a direct Section 508 violation for an application to > override or ignore system-wide accessibility settings. It is even more > egregious for an application that claims to be at least in part for > people with disabilities (and thus an 'enlightened' application) to do so. > > > So, my suggestion is that if you simply cannot possible use the > system-settings for sticky keys as part of your own UI, that you make > things sticky your own way; however that if the system-wide settings are > on that you use and respect those (complete with the dialog box that you > seem to dislike). > > > Regards, > > Peter Korn > Accessibility Architect, > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > >> But this very same thing makes it very awkward who want sticky keys on >> the keyboard and non-sticky on a physical. Which would be true for >> all non-a11y users and some a11y users. >> >> In the end though the only manner it interferes with my keyboard is >> the annoying dialogue that pops up, and the average gnome-ally user >> will probably be plenty used to seeing annoying dialogs anyway. >> >> The slow keys dialogue however is another matter though. Normal >> operations are not resumed until it is dismissed. Which in itself >> incredibly annoying. >> >> When planning the SOK I wanted to stay away from the three odd dialogs >> that GOK pops up when it is started. The plain fact is I don't want >> any dialogs when starting SOK. At all. >> >> Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one >> dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely >> unacceptable. >> >> On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: >> >> >>> On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Chris Jones wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> ... >>>>> >>>>> In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable >>>>> for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the >>>>> SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and >>>>> fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Chris, >>>> >>>> Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the >>>> state internally in SOK? IOW: >>>> >>>> >>> We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. >>> It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build >>> an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use >>> it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. >>> >>> If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key >>> while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is >>> inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a >>> problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock >>> status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you >>> want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. >>> >>> google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's >>> section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. >>> >>> regards >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> >>> >>>> 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked >>>> SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. >>>> >>>> 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time >>>> the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift >>>> is clicked again you unset the flag. >>>> >>>> That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an >>>> 'accessibility violation'. >>>> >>>> Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? >>>> >>>> - Henrik >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >>>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >>>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > From cerha@brailcom.org Tue Jun 27 03:30:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 380E63B02F3 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 03:30:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12733-05 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 03:30:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gate.brailcom.cz (158-84-244-84.strcechy.adsl-llu.static.bluetone.cz [84.244.84.158]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C08F93B0224 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 03:30:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 12155 invoked from network); 27 Jun 2006 09:09:08 +0200 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.15.2?) (192.168.15.2) by ns.brailcom.xx with SMTP; 27 Jun 2006 09:09:08 +0200 Message-ID: <44A0FAB5.7070906@brailcom.org> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:30:29 +0200 From: Tomas Cerha Organization: Brailcom, o.p.s. User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060626091722.GA16369@themuso.com> In-Reply-To: <20060626091722.GA16369@themuso.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.394 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.070, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.394 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 07:30:33 -0000 Luke Yelavich wrote: > Mind I ask when this is likely to be completed? > If you would like testers, I would be happy to put my hand up and try. Hi Luke, I hope to be able to make something available this week, but can't promise, since I'm at Guadec and it might be hard to find some spare time. If not, then I'll be back at work by the middle of July. I will definitely announce it as soon as there is something. Best regards, Tomas. -- Brailcom, o.p.s. http://www.brailcom.org Free(b)soft project http://www.freebsoft.org Eurochance project http://eurochance.brailcom.org From obert01@terramitica.net Tue Jun 27 05:58:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFB0B3B02C5 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 05:58:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21911-02 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 05:58:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sunset.terramitica.net (terramitica.net [82.230.142.140]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0F573B0088 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 05:58:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sunset.terramitica.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6D84D1FFC1; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:57:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:57:47 +0200 From: Olivier BERT To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech Message-ID: <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.567 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.032, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.567 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 09:58:45 -0000 > I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This > bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher > offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, this > may be essential for some people and the Orca -> Gnome Speech -> Speech > Dispatcher -> synthesizer aproach has inherent problems. This might > solve your problem too. > > Please, see also the common "TTS API" draft at > http://www.freebsoft.org/tts-api. This is a common effort of Free > Desktop and FSG. Very very good idea. Unfortunately, gnome-speech was not very stable, sometimes speech randomly stops. And it's true that it will optimize the speech chain. orca -> gnome speech -> speech-dispatcher -> synthesis was quite long :) And so, it must be nearly impossible to debug it. So thanks very much Tomas for this work ! -- Olivier BERT e-mail: obert01@mistigri.org Etudiant a l'E.P.I.T.A. (cycle ingenieur, 3eme annee) Tel: 06 07 69 79 71 From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Tue Jun 27 06:55:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AE9B3B009A for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 06:55:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24503-05 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 06:55:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EA133B006C for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 06:55:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5RAtKd4008557 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 04:55:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1I00501MBGFB@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:55:19 +0100 (BST) Received: from dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM (dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM [129.156.226.143]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1I002FWMC7GU@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:55:19 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:56:31 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: To: Chris Jones Message-id: <1151405791.7083.10.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.497 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.101, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.497 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 10:55:57 -0000 Hi Chris: I'll try to respond to each of your points in turn: On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 00:51, Chris Jones wrote: > But this very same thing makes it very awkward who want sticky keys on > the keyboard and non-sticky on a physical. Which would be true for > all non-a11y users and some a11y users. I don't understand what you are saying here, "the very same thing." My suggestion to use XKB client API would make it quite feasible for the physical keyboard to be non-sticky and for the onscreen keyboard to be sticky. Please re-read my post and check the XKB APIs. If after investigating it you still can't find what you are looking for, email me and I will try to assist - but you should read section 10.6 of the XKBlib manual first. > In the end though the only manner it interferes with my keyboard is > the annoying dialogue that pops up, and the average gnome-ally user > will probably be plenty used to seeing annoying dialogs anyway. The dialog pops up because you are indeed turning on SlowKeys. This is because of the way in which you are implementing sticky-keys in your application. What you should avoid is generating a key-press without a following key-release, since this triggers SlowKeys just as it does when you press and hold the Shift key on the physical keyboard. Perhaps you are talking about some other dialog as well? I'm afraid it's not clear from your messages. > The slow keys dialogue however is another matter though. Normal > operations are not resumed until it is dismissed. Which in itself > incredibly annoying. Without it, the keyboard would silently begin to require long press and hold sequences in order to work; this is necessary for users with some types of disabilities, but it's essential that the end user be warned when the keyboard's behavior is being changed in this way (in response to end user action, which is the case here). > When planning the SOK I wanted to stay away from the three odd dialogs > that GOK pops up when it is started. The plain fact is I don't want > any dialogs when starting SOK. At all. You can make GOK suppress those warnings I believe. If you do get them, READ THEM, they are telling you that your system has serious configuration issues which may make GOK unusable! > Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > unacceptable. This isn't at all true. You can easily programmatically turn this feature on when your keyboard starts, and turn it off when it exits - you can even turn the feature on and off when the mouse enters and leaves your keyboard, if that's what you want. Bear in mind that ANY onscreen keyboard that uses the mouse will fail to work properly when used to pop up menus, etc. via keyboard navigation, because of system toolkit pointer grabs. Are you aware of that fact? It will strike your onscreen keyboard as well. This is the reason for GOK's somewhat brittle configuration requirements, and the reason you are warned not to use GOK via the system core pointer. Bill > On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote > > > Chris Jones wrote: > > > > ... > > > > > > > > In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > > > > for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > > > > SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > > > > fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". > > > Chris, > > > > > > Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the > > > state internally in SOK? IOW: > > > > We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. > > It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build > > an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use > > it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. > > > > If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key > > while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is > > inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a > > problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock > > status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you > > want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. > > > > google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's > > section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. > > > > regards > > > > Bill > > > > > 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked > > > SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. > > > > > > 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time > > > the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift > > > is clicked again you unset the flag. > > > > > > That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an > > > 'accessibility violation'. > > > > > > Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? > > > > > > - Henrik > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > -- > Chris Jones > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Tue Jun 27 06:57:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D80933B00FF for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 06:57:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24638-04 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 06:57:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 877CE3B0098 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 06:57:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5RAvL7o009675 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 04:57:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1I00501MBGFB@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:57:20 +0100 (BST) Received: from dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM (dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM [129.156.226.143]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1I0021LMFKGU@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:57:20 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:58:32 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: <44A07EEC.1050109@sun.com> To: Peter Korn Message-id: <1151405912.7083.13.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> <44A07CB2.4090808@sun.com> <44A07EEC.1050109@sun.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.498 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.498 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 10:57:47 -0000 On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 01:42, Peter Korn wrote: > Hi Chris, > > One more thing. You write: > > > Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > > dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > > unacceptable. > > Have you filed an RFE on this issue (seeking a way to invoke the > system-wide Sticky-Keys functionality programatically without the user > dialog box), This is trivial to do. If you modify the key via gconf API, either by linking to gconf or just spawning a gconftool-2 command line, then you can change these settings without triggering the warning dialogs. If this has somehow regressed (it has worked on every system I know of, for several years), then a bug needs to be filed. Billy > or are you simply trying to "work around it"? I would hope > that part of a SoC project is to at least file bugs/RFEs for things you > want, even if you "work around them" for the purposes of meeting a > project deadline. I would hope that filing bugs/RFEs is part of the > purview of SoC projects. > > Regards, > > > Peter Korn > Accessibility Architect, > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > > Hi Chris, > > > > I think there are two issues here. Well, three: > > > > 1. Can an on-screen keyboard implement "sticky" modifiers without using > > the system support for sticky modifiers? > > 2. Can an on-screen keyboard circumvent/disable the system support for > > sticky modifiers (and slow keys, and...)? > > 3. Is the right way to "fix" what is "broken" in GOK doing another > > project rather than working with the existing GOK code to "fix" those > > "broken" things? > > > > I suggest that #3 may be somewhat religious at this point; I'm > > personally saddened that we aren't at least looking seriously at GOK > > improvements, but fundamentally a goal of UNIX accessibility is to > > foster the development of a rich accessibility ecosystem - and a rich > > ecosystem has room for multiple approaches to similar problems (cf. Orca > > and Gnopernicus and LSR). > > > > I have no issues with #1 - I see no reason why an on-screen keyboard > > cannot have its own way of making certain modifiers sticky on its own > > user interface *without* doing so through the system-wide setting > > mechanisms. Such a decision is I think a valid user-interface policy > > decision of an individual application. > > > > However, it is a direct Section 508 violation for an application to > > override or ignore system-wide accessibility settings. It is even more > > egregious for an application that claims to be at least in part for > > people with disabilities (and thus an 'enlightened' application) to do so. > > > > > > So, my suggestion is that if you simply cannot possible use the > > system-settings for sticky keys as part of your own UI, that you make > > things sticky your own way; however that if the system-wide settings are > > on that you use and respect those (complete with the dialog box that you > > seem to dislike). > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Peter Korn > > Accessibility Architect, > > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > > > > >> But this very same thing makes it very awkward who want sticky keys on > >> the keyboard and non-sticky on a physical. Which would be true for > >> all non-a11y users and some a11y users. > >> > >> In the end though the only manner it interferes with my keyboard is > >> the annoying dialogue that pops up, and the average gnome-ally user > >> will probably be plenty used to seeing annoying dialogs anyway. > >> > >> The slow keys dialogue however is another matter though. Normal > >> operations are not resumed until it is dismissed. Which in itself > >> incredibly annoying. > >> > >> When planning the SOK I wanted to stay away from the three odd dialogs > >> that GOK pops up when it is started. The plain fact is I don't want > >> any dialogs when starting SOK. At all. > >> > >> Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > >> dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > >> unacceptable. > >> > >> On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > >> > >> > >>> On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> Chris Jones wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> ... > >>>>> > >>>>> In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > >>>>> for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > >>>>> SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > >>>>> fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> Chris, > >>>> > >>>> Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the > >>>> state internally in SOK? IOW: > >>>> > >>>> > >>> We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. > >>> It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build > >>> an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use > >>> it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. > >>> > >>> If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key > >>> while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is > >>> inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a > >>> problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock > >>> status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you > >>> want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. > >>> > >>> google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's > >>> section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. > >>> > >>> regards > >>> > >>> Bill > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked > >>>> SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. > >>>> > >>>> 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time > >>>> the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift > >>>> is clicked again you unset the flag. > >>>> > >>>> That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an > >>>> 'accessibility violation'. > >>>> > >>>> Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? > >>>> > >>>> - Henrik > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > >>>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > >>>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Tue Jun 27 07:39:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FE523B00B3 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 07:39:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26317-07 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 07:39:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36A743B0008 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 07:39:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5RBdWO3020902 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 05:39:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1I00401O8QXW@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:39:32 +0100 (BST) Received: from dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM (dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM [129.156.226.143]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1I00FEIODV70@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:39:32 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:40:44 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech In-reply-to: <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> To: Olivier BERT Message-id: <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.504 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.094, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.504 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:39:41 -0000 On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 10:57, Olivier BERT wrote: > > I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This > > bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher > > offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, Does Speech Dispatcher support something other than Festival now? Gnome-speech has support for quite a few speech engines including some commercial ones with much clearer speech. Unfortunately one of the best values and clearest sounding options, 'Theta' from Cepstral, has been obsoleted by the new Cepstral Swift engine; we need someone to port the Theta support over the Cepstral. While free voices and engines are really important, for some users clarity of speech is paramount, so it's important to have support for at least the less expensive non-free TTS engines. I don't have any objection to using Speech Dispatcher as a common back-end, if there are more resources available to keep it up to date compared to gnome-speech. But we shouldn't move over entirely until we have comparable driver support. One area where Speech Dispatcher seems to be ahead is in support for non-English Festival voices, but I think that testing is the only impediment to using the non-Engish voices in gnome-speech as well (the Festival API is the same in either case). regards Bill > this > > may be essential for some people and the Orca -> Gnome Speech -> Speech > > Dispatcher -> synthesizer aproach has inherent problems. This might > > solve your problem too. > > > > Please, see also the common "TTS API" draft at > > http://www.freebsoft.org/tts-api. This is a common effort of Free > > Desktop and FSG. > > Very very good idea. > Unfortunately, gnome-speech was not very stable, sometimes speech > randomly stops. > And it's true that it will optimize the speech chain. orca -> gnome > speech -> speech-dispatcher -> synthesis was quite long :) And so, it > must be nearly impossible to debug it. > > So thanks very much Tomas for this work ! > -- > Olivier BERT > e-mail: obert01@mistigri.org > Etudiant a l'E.P.I.T.A. (cycle ingenieur, 3eme annee) > Tel: 06 07 69 79 71 > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From wvdwalt@csir.co.za Tue Jun 27 07:55:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 687933B009B for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 07:55:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26868-08 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 07:54:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apollo.csir.co.za (mx-4.csir.co.za [146.64.10.99]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 698433B0011 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 07:54:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([146.64.19.125]) by apollo.csir.co.za (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k5RBrpgB010902; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:53:51 +0200 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k5RBohn3013165; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:50:43 +0200 Received: from localhost (wvdwalt@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) with ESMTP id k5RBohUb013155; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:50:43 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: wvdwalt owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:50:43 +0200 (SAST) From: Willem van der Walt X-X-Sender: wvdwalt@localhost.localdomain To: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech In-Reply-To: <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> Message-ID: References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-CSIR-MailScanner-Information: Please contact sys-admin at csir dot co dot za for more information X-CSIR-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: wvdwalt@csir.co.za X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.555 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.044, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.555 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:55:00 -0000 Speech-dispatcher has support for the DECTalk Software speech and Viavoice/TTSynth. It also has a generic module through which one can make it work using any synthesizer that can take text on the command-line and speak it. Speech-dispatcher is very stable, even when using an unstable generic synthesizer. Although the generic module has some limits, in practice, it works well. HTH, Willem On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Bill Haneman wrote: > On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 10:57, Olivier BERT wrote: >>> I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This >>> bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher >>> offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, > > Does Speech Dispatcher support something other than Festival now? > Gnome-speech has support for quite a few speech engines including some > commercial ones with much clearer speech. Unfortunately one of the best > values and clearest sounding options, 'Theta' from Cepstral, has been > obsoleted by the new Cepstral Swift engine; we need someone to port the > Theta support over the Cepstral. > > While free voices and engines are really important, for some users > clarity of speech is paramount, so it's important to have support for at > least the less expensive non-free TTS engines. > > I don't have any objection to using Speech Dispatcher as a common > back-end, if there are more resources available to keep it up to date > compared to gnome-speech. But we shouldn't move over entirely until we > have comparable driver support. One area where Speech Dispatcher seems > to be ahead is in support for non-English Festival voices, but I think > that testing is the only impediment to using the non-Engish voices in > gnome-speech as well (the Festival API is the same in either case). > > regards > > Bill > >> this >>> may be essential for some people and the Orca -> Gnome Speech -> Speech >>> Dispatcher -> synthesizer aproach has inherent problems. This might >>> solve your problem too. >>> >>> Please, see also the common "TTS API" draft at >>> http://www.freebsoft.org/tts-api. This is a common effort of Free >>> Desktop and FSG. >> >> Very very good idea. >> Unfortunately, gnome-speech was not very stable, sometimes speech >> randomly stops. >> And it's true that it will optimize the speech chain. orca -> gnome >> speech -> speech-dispatcher -> synthesis was quite long :) And so, it >> must be nearly impossible to debug it. >> >> So thanks very much Tomas for this work ! >> -- >> Olivier BERT >> e-mail: obert01@mistigri.org >> Etudiant a l'E.P.I.T.A. (cycle ingenieur, 3eme annee) >> Tel: 06 07 69 79 71 >> _______________________________________________ >> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > -- This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright, terms and conditions and e-mail legal notice. Views expressed herein do not necessarily represent the views of the CSIR. CSIR E-mail Legal Notice http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_eMail_Legal_Notice.html CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_Copyright.html For electronic copies of the CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions and the CSIR Legal Notice send a blank message with REQUEST LEGAL in the subject line to HelpDesk@csir.co.za. This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. MailScanner thanks Transtec Computers for their support. From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Tue Jun 27 08:26:59 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 454083B0072 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:26:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28277-08 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:26:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Sun.COM [192.18.98.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E8F03B0012 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:26:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5RCPnX2015364 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 06:26:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1I00K01PZQJ4@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:17:46 +0100 (BST) Received: from dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM (dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM [129.156.226.143]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1I00FBPQ5670@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:17:30 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:18:42 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech In-reply-to: To: Willem van der Walt Message-id: <1151410722.7842.27.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.507 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.091, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.507 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:26:59 -0000 Hi Willem: That's good news about the DECTalk and TTSynth support. If we could get a Cepstral/Swift module as well, I think we'd have the major synths covered. Perhaps the gnome-speech FreeTTS code could be ported to the SpeechDispatcher API someday, to give us two free engines (especially now that Java licensing is more acceptable to free distros). I suspect the 'generic module' may not work well for screen readers because of the need for speech markers or at least "end of speech" notification, but it's still useful for some things of course. regards Bill On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 12:50, Willem van der Walt wrote: > Speech-dispatcher has support for the DECTalk Software speech and > Viavoice/TTSynth. It also has a generic module through which one can make > it work using any synthesizer that can take text on the command-line and > speak it. > Speech-dispatcher is very stable, even when using an unstable generic > synthesizer. > Although the generic module has some limits, in practice, it works well. > HTH, Willem > > On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Bill Haneman wrote: > > > On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 10:57, Olivier BERT wrote: > >>> I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This > >>> bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher > >>> offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, > > > > Does Speech Dispatcher support something other than Festival now? > > Gnome-speech has support for quite a few speech engines including some > > commercial ones with much clearer speech. Unfortunately one of the best > > values and clearest sounding options, 'Theta' from Cepstral, has been > > obsoleted by the new Cepstral Swift engine; we need someone to port the > > Theta support over the Cepstral. > > > > While free voices and engines are really important, for some users > > clarity of speech is paramount, so it's important to have support for at > > least the less expensive non-free TTS engines. > > > > I don't have any objection to using Speech Dispatcher as a common > > back-end, if there are more resources available to keep it up to date > > compared to gnome-speech. But we shouldn't move over entirely until we > > have comparable driver support. One area where Speech Dispatcher seems > > to be ahead is in support for non-English Festival voices, but I think > > that testing is the only impediment to using the non-Engish voices in > > gnome-speech as well (the Festival API is the same in either case). > > > > regards > > > > Bill > > > >> this > >>> may be essential for some people and the Orca -> Gnome Speech -> Speech > >>> Dispatcher -> synthesizer aproach has inherent problems. This might > >>> solve your problem too. > >>> > >>> Please, see also the common "TTS API" draft at > >>> http://www.freebsoft.org/tts-api. This is a common effort of Free > >>> Desktop and FSG. > >> > >> Very very good idea. > >> Unfortunately, gnome-speech was not very stable, sometimes speech > >> randomly stops. > >> And it's true that it will optimize the speech chain. orca -> gnome > >> speech -> speech-dispatcher -> synthesis was quite long :) And so, it > >> must be nearly impossible to debug it. > >> > >> So thanks very much Tomas for this work ! > >> -- > >> Olivier BERT > >> e-mail: obert01@mistigri.org > >> Etudiant a l'E.P.I.T.A. (cycle ingenieur, 3eme annee) > >> Tel: 06 07 69 79 71 > >> _______________________________________________ > >> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > >> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > -- > This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright, terms and conditions and > e-mail legal notice. Views expressed herein do not necessarily represent the > views of the CSIR. > > CSIR E-mail Legal Notice > http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_eMail_Legal_Notice.html > > CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions > http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_Copyright.html > > For electronic copies of the CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions and the CSIR > Legal Notice send a blank message with REQUEST LEGAL in the subject line to > HelpDesk@csir.co.za. > > > This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, > and is believed to be clean. MailScanner thanks Transtec Computers for their support. > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From wvdwalt@csir.co.za Tue Jun 27 08:38:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DDF33B0011 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:38:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28814-05 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:38:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apollo.csir.co.za (mx-4.csir.co.za [146.64.10.99]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2CFD3B0072 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:38:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([146.64.19.125]) by apollo.csir.co.za (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k5RCaUHp001391; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:36:30 +0200 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k5RCXMJn028019; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:33:22 +0200 Received: from localhost (wvdwalt@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) with ESMTP id k5RCXM19028011; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:33:22 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: wvdwalt owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:33:22 +0200 (SAST) From: Willem van der Walt X-X-Sender: wvdwalt@localhost.localdomain To: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech In-Reply-To: <1151410722.7842.27.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> Message-ID: References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> <1151410722.7842.27.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-CSIR-MailScanner-Information: Please contact sys-admin at csir dot co dot za for more information X-CSIR-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: wvdwalt@csir.co.za X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.559 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.040, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.559 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:38:34 -0000 Speech-dispatcher in general works well with screen readers. I am using it with its generic module as I am writing this email. It stops speech by killing the command-line program that is executed by the generic module. This works better than one would expect. When testing Orca or Gnopernicus, I these days always use the speech-dispatcher driver in gnome-speech to drive a synth through the generic speech-dispatcher module. As I recall, Swift also has some command-line program that can say a phrase or two, so it should be relativly easy to make that work also. Regards, Willem On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Bill Haneman wrote: > Hi Willem: > > That's good news about the DECTalk and TTSynth support. If we could get > a Cepstral/Swift module as well, I think we'd have the major synths > covered. Perhaps the gnome-speech FreeTTS code could be ported to the > SpeechDispatcher API someday, to give us two free engines (especially > now that Java licensing is more acceptable to free distros). > > I suspect the 'generic module' may not work well for screen readers > because of the need for speech markers or at least "end of speech" > notification, but it's still useful for some things of course. > > regards > > Bill > > On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 12:50, Willem van der Walt wrote: >> Speech-dispatcher has support for the DECTalk Software speech and >> Viavoice/TTSynth. It also has a generic module through which one can make >> it work using any synthesizer that can take text on the command-line and >> speak it. >> Speech-dispatcher is very stable, even when using an unstable generic >> synthesizer. >> Although the generic module has some limits, in practice, it works well. >> HTH, Willem >> >> On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Bill Haneman wrote: >> >>> On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 10:57, Olivier BERT wrote: >>>>> I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This >>>>> bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher >>>>> offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, >>> >>> Does Speech Dispatcher support something other than Festival now? >>> Gnome-speech has support for quite a few speech engines including some >>> commercial ones with much clearer speech. Unfortunately one of the best >>> values and clearest sounding options, 'Theta' from Cepstral, has been >>> obsoleted by the new Cepstral Swift engine; we need someone to port the >>> Theta support over the Cepstral. >>> >>> While free voices and engines are really important, for some users >>> clarity of speech is paramount, so it's important to have support for at >>> least the less expensive non-free TTS engines. >>> >>> I don't have any objection to using Speech Dispatcher as a common >>> back-end, if there are more resources available to keep it up to date >>> compared to gnome-speech. But we shouldn't move over entirely until we >>> have comparable driver support. One area where Speech Dispatcher seems >>> to be ahead is in support for non-English Festival voices, but I think >>> that testing is the only impediment to using the non-Engish voices in >>> gnome-speech as well (the Festival API is the same in either case). >>> >>> regards >>> >>> Bill >>> >>>> this >>>>> may be essential for some people and the Orca -> Gnome Speech -> Speech >>>>> Dispatcher -> synthesizer aproach has inherent problems. This might >>>>> solve your problem too. >>>>> >>>>> Please, see also the common "TTS API" draft at >>>>> http://www.freebsoft.org/tts-api. This is a common effort of Free >>>>> Desktop and FSG. >>>> >>>> Very very good idea. >>>> Unfortunately, gnome-speech was not very stable, sometimes speech >>>> randomly stops. >>>> And it's true that it will optimize the speech chain. orca -> gnome >>>> speech -> speech-dispatcher -> synthesis was quite long :) And so, it >>>> must be nearly impossible to debug it. >>>> >>>> So thanks very much Tomas for this work ! >>>> -- >>>> Olivier BERT >>>> e-mail: obert01@mistigri.org >>>> Etudiant a l'E.P.I.T.A. (cycle ingenieur, 3eme annee) >>>> Tel: 06 07 69 79 71 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >>>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >>>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >>> >> >> -- >> This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright, terms and conditions and >> e-mail legal notice. Views expressed herein do not necessarily represent the >> views of the CSIR. >> >> CSIR E-mail Legal Notice >> http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_eMail_Legal_Notice.html >> >> CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions >> http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_Copyright.html >> >> For electronic copies of the CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions and the CSIR >> Legal Notice send a blank message with REQUEST LEGAL in the subject line to >> HelpDesk@csir.co.za. >> >> >> This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, >> and is believed to be clean. MailScanner thanks Transtec Computers for their support. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > -- This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright, terms and conditions and e-mail legal notice. Views expressed herein do not necessarily represent the views of the CSIR. CSIR E-mail Legal Notice http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_eMail_Legal_Notice.html CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_Copyright.html For electronic copies of the CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions and the CSIR Legal Notice send a blank message with REQUEST LEGAL in the subject line to HelpDesk@csir.co.za. This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. MailScanner thanks Transtec Computers for their support. From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Tue Jun 27 11:04:08 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C04763B0012 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:04:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04869-01 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:04:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.199]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9A9F3B0133 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:04:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 13so238241nzn for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.22.68 with SMTP id z68mr4475507nzi; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.73.15 with HTTP; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:03:35 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-Reply-To: <1151405912.7083.13.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> <44A07CB2.4090808@sun.com> <44A07EEC.1050109@sun.com> <1151405912.7083.13.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.494 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.093, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.494 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:04:08 -0000 "The very same thing" refers to where you say that disabled users will complain if the onscreen keyboard conflicts with sticky keys. What I am trying to say is that an onscreen keyboard should work whether sticky keys is on or not. Surely an application changing system wide settings just so it can run, is an accessibility violation as the user might rely on non-sticky behaviour on the physical keyboard. In other words one input device should not change the behaviour of all the others. You keep referring to xkblib. To get this to work I would have to change the x config to have an extra keyboard device. The XTest api I am currently using does not allow me to specify which keyboard device I am emulating either. I have difficulty seeing how I could use this. I understand the need for the dialogs. If the system-wide settings are changing then I agree a dialog is needed. This is yet another reason why I do not want to change the system wide settings. I can see why GOK behaves as it does. My opinion though is that it is not acceptable, another method must be found to solve the issue. Bill Haneman said: >Bear in mind that ANY onscreen keyboard that uses the mouse will fail to >work properly when used to pop up menus, etc. via keyboard navigation, >because of system toolkit pointer grabs. Are you aware of that fact? >It will strike your onscreen keyboard as well. This is the reason for >GOK's somewhat brittle configuration requirements, and the reason you >are warned not to use GOK via the system core pointer. I find this difficult to understand, surely pop up menus are a pointer operation to begin with, and that it is possible to emulate this with a physical keyboard. I fail to see the point of emulating this emulation with a pointer. Except if one was using a pointer to emulate a scanning device. Perhaps it would make more sense to disconnect the core pointer when GOK enters it's scanning mode? Maybe it is just impossible to design a one-size fits all onscreen keyboard. As evidenced by GOK, the result is a keyboard that is accessible to everyone but usable by no-one. On 27/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 01:42, Peter Korn wrote: > > Hi Chris, > > > > One more thing. You write: > > > > > Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > > > dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > > > unacceptable. > > > > Have you filed an RFE on this issue (seeking a way to invoke the > > system-wide Sticky-Keys functionality programatically without the user > > dialog box), > > This is trivial to do. If you modify the key via gconf API, either by > linking to gconf or just spawning a gconftool-2 command line, then you > can change these settings without triggering the warning dialogs. If > this has somehow regressed (it has worked on every system I know of, for > several years), then a bug needs to be filed. > > Billy > > > or are you simply trying to "work around it"? I would hope > > that part of a SoC project is to at least file bugs/RFEs for things you > > want, even if you "work around them" for the purposes of meeting a > > project deadline. I would hope that filing bugs/RFEs is part of the > > purview of SoC projects. > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Peter Korn > > Accessibility Architect, > > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > > > > Hi Chris, > > > > > > I think there are two issues here. Well, three: > > > > > > 1. Can an on-screen keyboard implement "sticky" modifiers without using > > > the system support for sticky modifiers? > > > 2. Can an on-screen keyboard circumvent/disable the system support for > > > sticky modifiers (and slow keys, and...)? > > > 3. Is the right way to "fix" what is "broken" in GOK doing another > > > project rather than working with the existing GOK code to "fix" those > > > "broken" things? > > > > > > I suggest that #3 may be somewhat religious at this point; I'm > > > personally saddened that we aren't at least looking seriously at GOK > > > improvements, but fundamentally a goal of UNIX accessibility is to > > > foster the development of a rich accessibility ecosystem - and a rich > > > ecosystem has room for multiple approaches to similar problems (cf. Orca > > > and Gnopernicus and LSR). > > > > > > I have no issues with #1 - I see no reason why an on-screen keyboard > > > cannot have its own way of making certain modifiers sticky on its own > > > user interface *without* doing so through the system-wide setting > > > mechanisms. Such a decision is I think a valid user-interface policy > > > decision of an individual application. > > > > > > However, it is a direct Section 508 violation for an application to > > > override or ignore system-wide accessibility settings. It is even more > > > egregious for an application that claims to be at least in part for > > > people with disabilities (and thus an 'enlightened' application) to do so. > > > > > > > > > So, my suggestion is that if you simply cannot possible use the > > > system-settings for sticky keys as part of your own UI, that you make > > > things sticky your own way; however that if the system-wide settings are > > > on that you use and respect those (complete with the dialog box that you > > > seem to dislike). > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Peter Korn > > > Accessibility Architect, > > > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > > > > > > > >> But this very same thing makes it very awkward who want sticky keys on > > >> the keyboard and non-sticky on a physical. Which would be true for > > >> all non-a11y users and some a11y users. > > >> > > >> In the end though the only manner it interferes with my keyboard is > > >> the annoying dialogue that pops up, and the average gnome-ally user > > >> will probably be plenty used to seeing annoying dialogs anyway. > > >> > > >> The slow keys dialogue however is another matter though. Normal > > >> operations are not resumed until it is dismissed. Which in itself > > >> incredibly annoying. > > >> > > >> When planning the SOK I wanted to stay away from the three odd dialogs > > >> that GOK pops up when it is started. The plain fact is I don't want > > >> any dialogs when starting SOK. At all. > > >> > > >> Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > > >> dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > > >> unacceptable. > > >> > > >> On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >>> On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>> Chris Jones wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>> ... > > >>>>> > > >>>>> In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > > >>>>> for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > > >>>>> SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > > >>>>> fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>> Chris, > > >>>> > > >>>> Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the > > >>>> state internally in SOK? IOW: > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. > > >>> It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build > > >>> an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use > > >>> it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. > > >>> > > >>> If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key > > >>> while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is > > >>> inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a > > >>> problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock > > >>> status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you > > >>> want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. > > >>> > > >>> google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's > > >>> section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. > > >>> > > >>> regards > > >>> > > >>> Bill > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>> 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked > > >>>> SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. > > >>>> > > >>>> 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time > > >>>> the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift > > >>>> is clicked again you unset the flag. > > >>>> > > >>>> That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an > > >>>> 'accessibility violation'. > > >>>> > > >>>> Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? > > >>>> > > >>>> - Henrik > > >>>> > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > >>>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > >>>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From hanke@brailcom.org Tue Jun 27 11:06:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3773D3B0106 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:06:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05080-01 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:06:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp-out4.iol.cz (smtp-out4.iol.cz [194.228.2.92]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 844FA3B00E2 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:06:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from antivir4.iol.cz (avir4 [192.168.30.209]) by smtp-out4.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id E011A743C2 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:06:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (antivir4.iol.cz [127.0.0.1]) by antivir4.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id CADA6240024 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:06:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp-out4.iol.cz (smtp-out-4.iplanet.iol.cz [192.168.30.31]) by antivir4.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88F7C240021 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:06:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.36] (77.93.broadband2.iol.cz [83.208.93.77]) by smtp-out4.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14E2622AF58 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:06:09 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech From: Hynek Hanke To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:04:37 +0200 Message-Id: <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at iol.cz X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.464 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.464 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:06:46 -0000 Hello, I'd like to address a few points. * First, as we discussed on accessibility@freedesktop.org (if someone is not subscribed, you are welcome to join), we want to create a new API to access speech synthesis. This shouldn't be looked at as "yet-another" speech API. Rather, we did some prototypes in Gnome Speech, Speech Dispatcher and KTTSD and found some dead ends and some new requirements. Also, in the Speech Dispatcher especially we found the most clean way to proceed forwards is to split it into two separate parts: one message handling and prioritization and the second interface with speech engines. So with a fresh mind, several people were working on putting down our common (Brailcom projects, Speakup, Gnome, KDE) requirements on such speech API. This document is fairly complete by now and we are at the point when we are starting implementation. The most beneficial way how to contribute to speech synthesis support right now is to help with TTS API and when the infrastructure is in place, develop modules for TTS API. (Not that we will rewrite all modules, I already know the existing Dispatcher modules will require only minor modifications in short term.) This doesn't address the problem of how Gnome applications should interface with it. Either Gnome Speech could be modified to use TTS API or the applications go through some other tool like Speech Dispatcher. I think an Orca module for Speech Dispatcher makes very much sense. An important thing is that both projects are desktop independent. * Another thing several people asked were dates. As for the Orca module for Dispatcher, Tomas already answered the question. The TTS API implementation we hope to have finished in time for the KDE developers to connect KTTS with Speech Dispatcher for KDE4. Also, next major Speech Dispatcher release will already work on top of TTS API and several major improvements will be made to its interface (SSIP). Of course, this is all hopes. * Enrico suggested we should use Festival C API instead of talking to it via TCP. Also Olivier mentioned the whole chain to be too long and source of troubles. However, I suspect the problem is not in the chain being too long as much as in both Festival and Gnome Speech lacking proper detailed logs. In Speech Dispatcher we also use Festival via TCP (actually Gnome Speech doesn't, it runs the binary) and to my experience, this is a good advantage for debugging. It is very easy to log the communication with Festival, so for the developer it is easy to see what went wrong if something does. It is also easy to send very informative bug reports. Also, we have found the connection randomly crashes for no apparent reason. It is indeed far better if we can just detect it, log it and create a new connection and reset the parameters automatically (as we do now) than if such a crash would bring down the whole module (if we were using the C API) for no clear reason. (Another one: in the current version of Dispatcher, sometimes a very mysterious segfault happens. I suspect this has something to do with ALSA, but it is very hard to tell as we link ALSA directly and the crash is not reproducible in testing circumstances...) Now, one of the big problems is that Festival doesn't offer proper logs. It would often refuse connection for a stupid typo in the configuration file and not give any clue to the user. This is something which should be fixed. * The generic output module proved to be very useful. But I must object to the claim that it can do mostly everything. It can talk and provide the basic level of synchronization information necessary for screen readers, but it doesn't support any more advanced things. Users don't notice with Speakup because Speakup doesn't use more advanced capabilities of the synthesizer, but you would surely very soon notice the difference with Festival in clients like speechd-el which use its full power. A native module is much better when someone does it. But TTS API will provide a generic module too and I already have a list of things which I'd like to improve. * I hope the Cepstrall/Swift and FreeTTS modules will be ported under TTS API eventually. At least this was the intention. Have an API that doesn't limit anyone and move everything there to a common code base which we can mantain together. Thanks for attention. I apologize for a long post. With regards, Hynek Hanke From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Tue Jun 27 11:23:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 778703B010A for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:23:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05508-07 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:22:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0D133B009B for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:22:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5RFMMn5028702 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 09:22:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1I00601YM47U@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:22:21 +0100 (BST) Received: from dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM (dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM [129.156.226.143]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1I007X7YP9BI@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:22:21 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:23:33 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: To: Chris Jones Message-id: <1151421813.7842.72.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> <44A07CB2.4090808@sun.com> <44A07EEC.1050109@sun.com> <1151405912.7083.13.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.51 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.088, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.51 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:23:00 -0000 On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 16:03, Chris Jones wrote: > "The very same thing" refers to where you say that disabled users will > complain if the onscreen keyboard conflicts with sticky keys. > > What I am trying to say is that an onscreen keyboard should work > whether sticky keys is on or not. By its very nature, an onscreen keyboard (which will be emulating physical keypresses) will interact with the physical keyboard driver and settings. This means that interoperability with things like XKB is just a requirement of the task at hand. > Surely an application changing system wide settings just so it can > run, is an accessibility violation as the user might rely on > non-sticky behaviour on the physical keyboard. In other words one > input device should not change the behaviour of all the others. I have suggested several alternatives. It is folly to create an onscreen keyboard which emulates physical keypresses and then pretend that it is independent of the physical keyboard - it's just not realistic, since you'll be using Xtest "Fake" API to fake key presses anyway. > You keep referring to xkblib. To get this to work I would have to > change the x config to have an extra keyboard device. That is not true! > The XTest api I > am currently using does not allow me to specify which keyboard device > I am emulating either. I have difficulty seeing how I could use this. Have you read the document section which I recommended to you? It allows you to programmatically change the latch state of specific modifiers, WITHOUT simulating a "press-and-hold". It allows you to do this in a way that does not change the way the physical keyboard works, and doesn't trigger any warning dialogs. XKB is available by default on the XOrg server, so you shouldn't need to change your X configuration at all. > I understand the need for the dialogs. If the system-wide settings > are changing then I agree a dialog is needed. This is yet another > reason why I do not want to change the system wide settings. The dialog does not post anytime the system-wide settings change - it only posts in response to a change which it believes comes from the SlowKeys or StickyKeys keyboard gesture. As long as your keyboard latches keys by simulating a key press and then simulating a release at a later time in the future, you will collide with this dialog, because you are invoking the SlowKeys gesture. Period. If you don't like that you can turn off the keyboard shortcuts, i.e. make it so that holding the shift key down doesn't turn on SlowKeys; however you should not make that the default for new users. > I can see why GOK behaves as it does. My opinion though is that it is > not acceptable, another method must be found to solve the issue. We'll be able to help you better if you are a little more open to our suggestions. Bill > Bill Haneman said: > > >Bear in mind that ANY onscreen keyboard that uses the mouse will fail to > >work properly when used to pop up menus, etc. via keyboard navigation, > >because of system toolkit pointer grabs. Are you aware of that fact? > >It will strike your onscreen keyboard as well. This is the reason for > >GOK's somewhat brittle configuration requirements, and the reason you > >are warned not to use GOK via the system core pointer. > > I find this difficult to understand, surely pop up menus are a pointer > operation to begin with, and that it is possible to emulate this with > a physical keyboard. I fail to see the point of emulating this > emulation with a pointer. Except if one was using a pointer to > emulate a scanning device. Perhaps it would make more sense to > disconnect the core pointer when GOK enters it's scanning mode? > > Maybe it is just impossible to design a one-size fits all onscreen > keyboard. As evidenced by GOK, the result is a keyboard that is > accessible to everyone but usable by no-one. > > > On 27/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 01:42, Peter Korn wrote: > > > Hi Chris, > > > > > > One more thing. You write: > > > > > > > Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > > > > dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > > > > unacceptable. > > > > > > Have you filed an RFE on this issue (seeking a way to invoke the > > > system-wide Sticky-Keys functionality programatically without the user > > > dialog box), > > > > This is trivial to do. If you modify the key via gconf API, either by > > linking to gconf or just spawning a gconftool-2 command line, then you > > can change these settings without triggering the warning dialogs. If > > this has somehow regressed (it has worked on every system I know of, for > > several years), then a bug needs to be filed. > > > > Billy > > > > > or are you simply trying to "work around it"? I would hope > > > that part of a SoC project is to at least file bugs/RFEs for things you > > > want, even if you "work around them" for the purposes of meeting a > > > project deadline. I would hope that filing bugs/RFEs is part of the > > > purview of SoC projects. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > Peter Korn > > > Accessibility Architect, > > > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > > > > > > Hi Chris, > > > > > > > > I think there are two issues here. Well, three: > > > > > > > > 1. Can an on-screen keyboard implement "sticky" modifiers without using > > > > the system support for sticky modifiers? > > > > 2. Can an on-screen keyboard circumvent/disable the system support for > > > > sticky modifiers (and slow keys, and...)? > > > > 3. Is the right way to "fix" what is "broken" in GOK doing another > > > > project rather than working with the existing GOK code to "fix" those > > > > "broken" things? > > > > > > > > I suggest that #3 may be somewhat religious at this point; I'm > > > > personally saddened that we aren't at least looking seriously at GOK > > > > improvements, but fundamentally a goal of UNIX accessibility is to > > > > foster the development of a rich accessibility ecosystem - and a rich > > > > ecosystem has room for multiple approaches to similar problems (cf. Orca > > > > and Gnopernicus and LSR). > > > > > > > > I have no issues with #1 - I see no reason why an on-screen keyboard > > > > cannot have its own way of making certain modifiers sticky on its own > > > > user interface *without* doing so through the system-wide setting > > > > mechanisms. Such a decision is I think a valid user-interface policy > > > > decision of an individual application. > > > > > > > > However, it is a direct Section 508 violation for an application to > > > > override or ignore system-wide accessibility settings. It is even more > > > > egregious for an application that claims to be at least in part for > > > > people with disabilities (and thus an 'enlightened' application) to do so. > > > > > > > > > > > > So, my suggestion is that if you simply cannot possible use the > > > > system-settings for sticky keys as part of your own UI, that you make > > > > things sticky your own way; however that if the system-wide settings are > > > > on that you use and respect those (complete with the dialog box that you > > > > seem to dislike). > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Peter Korn > > > > Accessibility Architect, > > > > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > > > > > > > > > > >> But this very same thing makes it very awkward who want sticky keys on > > > >> the keyboard and non-sticky on a physical. Which would be true for > > > >> all non-a11y users and some a11y users. > > > >> > > > >> In the end though the only manner it interferes with my keyboard is > > > >> the annoying dialogue that pops up, and the average gnome-ally user > > > >> will probably be plenty used to seeing annoying dialogs anyway. > > > >> > > > >> The slow keys dialogue however is another matter though. Normal > > > >> operations are not resumed until it is dismissed. Which in itself > > > >> incredibly annoying. > > > >> > > > >> When planning the SOK I wanted to stay away from the three odd dialogs > > > >> that GOK pops up when it is started. The plain fact is I don't want > > > >> any dialogs when starting SOK. At all. > > > >> > > > >> Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > > > >> dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > > > >> unacceptable. > > > >> > > > >> On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>> On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>> Chris Jones wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> ... > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > > > >>>>> for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > > > >>>>> SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > > > >>>>> fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> Chris, > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the > > > >>>> state internally in SOK? IOW: > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. > > > >>> It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build > > > >>> an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use > > > >>> it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. > > > >>> > > > >>> If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key > > > >>> while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is > > > >>> inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a > > > >>> problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock > > > >>> status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you > > > >>> want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. > > > >>> > > > >>> google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's > > > >>> section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. > > > >>> > > > >>> regards > > > >>> > > > >>> Bill > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>> 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked > > > >>>> SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time > > > >>>> the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift > > > >>>> is clicked again you unset the flag. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an > > > >>>> 'accessibility violation'. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? > > > >>>> > > > >>>> - Henrik > > > >>>> > > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > > >>>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > >>>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > >>>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > -- > Chris Jones > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From gk4@austin.ibm.com Tue Jun 27 14:30:28 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A72123B00D3 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:30:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12403-01 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:30:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e4.ny.us.ibm.com (e4.ny.us.ibm.com [32.97.182.144]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31DEC3B0110 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:30:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (d01relay04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.236]) by e4.ny.us.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5RITbHn001642 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:29:38 -0400 Received: from d01av02.pok.ibm.com (d01av02.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.216]) by d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (8.13.6/NCO/VER7.0) with ESMTP id k5RITbTm271228 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:29:37 -0400 Received: from d01av02.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av02.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k5RITbbJ011163 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:29:37 -0400 Received: from gk4.austin.ibm.com (gk4.austin.ibm.com [9.53.33.16]) by d01av02.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5RITaQf011141; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:29:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech From: George Kraft To: Hynek Hanke In-Reply-To: <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: IBM Corp Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:26:33 -0500 Message-Id: <1151432793.6050.13.camel@gk4.austin.ibm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 (2.0.2-3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.49 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.109, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.49 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: gk4@austin.ibm.com List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 18:30:28 -0000 On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 17:04 +0200, Hynek Hanke wrote: > talking to it via TCP. Are commercial TTS engines sufficiently isolated in this new TTS API proposal? With respect to licensing, can DECtalk and TTSynth be successfully linked to and be used? gnome-speech is providing a nice abstraction. -- George (gk4) From hanke@brailcom.org Tue Jun 27 15:58:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22F743B00A6 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:58:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15469-10 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:58:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp-out3.iol.cz (smtp-out3.iol.cz [194.228.2.91]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 862C93B009F for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:58:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from antivir3.iol.cz (avir3 [192.168.30.206]) by smtp-out3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8F53682A3; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:35:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (antivir3.iol.cz [127.0.0.1]) by antivir3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB58E42000A; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:35:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp-out3.iol.cz (smtp-out-3.iplanet.iol.cz [192.168.30.28]) by antivir3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 909D1420006; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:35:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.36] (77.93.broadband2.iol.cz [83.208.93.77]) by smtp-out3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A9583BEE5; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:35:53 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech From: Hynek Hanke To: gk4@austin.ibm.com In-Reply-To: <1151432793.6050.13.camel@gk4.austin.ibm.com> References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> <1151432793.6050.13.camel@gk4.austin.ibm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:34:24 +0200 Message-Id: <1151436865.3550.6.camel@chopin> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at iol.cz X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.464 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.464 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gap X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:58:48 -0000 George Kraft píše v Út 27. 06. 2006 v 13:26 -0500: > On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 17:04 +0200, Hynek Hanke wrote: > > talking to it via TCP. > Are commercial TTS engines sufficiently isolated in this new TTS API > proposal? With respect to licensing, can DECtalk and TTSynth be > successfully linked to and be used? I'm not sure what is the question exactly? The modules inside the TTS API implementation we are working on are supposed to run as separate processes for licensing reason and for the reason of stability. This however has little to do with the way how interfacing between the module and the synthesizer is done. Also, the paragraph of which you quote a part of a sentence had nothing to do with TTS API nor with DECtalk or TTSynth in my previous post. > gnome-speech is providing a nice abstraction. I'm sorry, I do not understand. Could you please explain? With regards, Hynek Hanke From gk4@austin.ibm.com Tue Jun 27 17:35:38 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE7F43B00D3 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:35:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18161-03 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:35:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e5.ny.us.ibm.com (e5.ny.us.ibm.com [32.97.182.145]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4C563B009D for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:35:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (d01relay02.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.234]) by e5.ny.us.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5RLY8rN016556 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:34:08 -0400 Received: from d01av02.pok.ibm.com (d01av02.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.216]) by d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (8.13.6/NCO/VER7.0) with ESMTP id k5RLXJwK261560 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:33:19 -0400 Received: from d01av02.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av02.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k5RLXIPG001437 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:33:19 -0400 Received: from gk4.austin.ibm.com (gk4.austin.ibm.com [9.53.33.16]) by d01av02.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5RLXIUu001410; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:33:18 -0400 Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech From: George Kraft To: Hynek Hanke In-Reply-To: <1151436865.3550.6.camel@chopin> References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> <1151432793.6050.13.camel@gk4.austin.ibm.com> <1151436865.3550.6.camel@chopin> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: IBM Corp Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:30:14 -0500 Message-Id: <1151443815.6050.42.camel@gk4.austin.ibm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 (2.0.2-3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.499 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.499 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: gk4@austin.ibm.com List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:35:39 -0000 On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 21:34 +0200, Hynek Hanke wrote: > The modules inside the TTS > API implementation we are working on are supposed to run as separate > processes for licensing reason and for the reason of stability. You answered my malformed question. :-) Thanks. George (gk4) From enrico@enricozini.org Tue Jun 27 19:24:26 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD1B13B002A for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:24:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20951-10 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:24:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agnus.ngi.it (agnus.ngi.it [88.149.128.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B51343B006D for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:24:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (81-174-12-206.f5.ngi.it [81.174.12.206]) by agnus.ngi.it (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5RMH2rG021881 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 00:17:03 +0200 Received: from enrico by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FvL1W-0006Xm-74 for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 22:23:06 +0100 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 22:23:06 +0100 From: Enrico Zini To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech Message-ID: <20060627212306.GA24644@viaza> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ibTvN161/egqYuK8" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060403 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.68 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.774, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.558] X-Spam-Score: -1.68 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 23:24:27 -0000 --ibTvN161/egqYuK8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jun 27, 2006 at 05:04:37PM +0200, Hynek Hanke wrote: > * Enrico suggested we should use Festival C API instead of talking > to it via TCP. Also Olivier mentioned the whole chain to be too long and > source of troubles. However, I suspect the problem is not in the chain > being too long as much as in both Festival and Gnome Speech lacking > proper detailed logs. The problem that I've found in the Festival C API is that you cannot have reliable is_speaking testing / end-of-speech notification. Details: Festival can run in two modes: (audio_mode 'sync) or (audio_mode 'async). In sync mode, a (SayText "...") command would block the entire festival engine until the phrase has been fully spoken. That rules out being able to interrupt the speaking, so we don't want it. In async mode, festival runs an audio spooler called audsp as external process, then does the TTS converting text into waveforms, saves the waveforms in a file under /tmp [shivers] and tells audsp to play that file. audsp keeps listening to the pipe while playing, and supports commands like "wait until everything has been spoken" or "interrupt speaking and reset the queue". The communication protocol between festival and audsp is basically one-way, and there's currently no way for audsp to push info back to festival. This makes it impossible to notify that a wave has finished playing. There is also currently no way to ask if audsp is currently playing something or not. Festival is free software, so this is of course fixable. Having looked at the code, it's simple code and it wouldn't break if it'd be stretched a bit. But that's not improving a driver: that's improving festival (if the authors allow) and then having to depend on a very new version of it. So the proper way to implement a festival driver seems to me to use the text-to-wave function and then do a proper handling of playing the resulting wave, hopefully using the audio playing technology that's trendy at the moment. I looked into esd without understanding if it is trendy anymore, and I look at gstreamer without understanding if it isn't a bit too complicated as a default way to play a waveform. Also, not using audsp means that the festival driver wouldn't add another spawned process to keep track of. I don't know much about the APIs of other speech engines. If they all had a text-to-wave function, then it can be a wise move to implement a proper audio scheduler to share among TTS drivers, which could then (reliably) support proper integration with the audio system of the day, progress report, interruption and whatever else is needed. This would ensure that all TTS drivers would have the same (hopefully high) level of reliability wrt audio output. > Also, we have found the connection randomly crashes for no apparent > reason. It is indeed far better if we can just detect it, log it and > create a new connection and reset the parameters automatically (as we do > now) than if such a crash would bring down the whole module (if we were > using the C API) for no clear reason. (Another one: in the current > version of Dispatcher, sometimes a very mysterious segfault happens. > I suspect this has something to do with ALSA, but it is very hard to > tell as we link ALSA directly and the crash is not reproducible in > testing circumstances...) >=20 > Now, one of the big problems is that Festival doesn't offer proper logs. > It would often refuse connection for a stupid typo in the configuration > file and not give any clue to the user. This is something which should > be fixed. This can probably be fixed: festival can be told not to load any config file, and log can be implemented adding a couple of printfs before calls to the C++ API. And something like a TTS driver which becomes the main form of access to the computer should be designed to properly restart in case of segfaults in its own code, be it festival or whatever else. Ciao, Enrico --=20 GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini --ibTvN161/egqYuK8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEoaG59LSwzHl+v6sRAiE4AJ9EA6pT/x65pG8GVK8MHP1PWNaINQCeJOOO Xl+8CXjxfFSxfqqnM1uKRAs= =lEOy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ibTvN161/egqYuK8-- From enrico@enricozini.org Wed Jun 28 09:59:16 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A74633B017A; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:59:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14201-04; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:59:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agnus.ngi.it (agnus.ngi.it [88.149.128.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAA8D3B01E2; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:59:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (81-174-12-206.f5.ngi.it [81.174.12.206]) by agnus.ngi.it (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5SDwIwD028281; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:58:18 +0200 Received: from enrico by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FvaXC-000293-Dz; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:56:50 +0100 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:56:50 +0100 From: Enrico Zini To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Probably found the problem with the Italian synthesis Message-ID: <20060628135650.GA6628@viaza> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060403 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.017, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:59:16 -0000 --fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, might be around here: $ echo "Evviva il Per=C3=BA" | festival --tts --language english $ echo "Evviva il Per=C3=BA" | festival --tts --language finnish SIOD ERROR: damaged env : # $ echo "Evviva il Per=C3=BA" | festival --tts --language spanish $ echo "Evviva il Per=C3=BA" | festival --tts --language italian LTS_Ruleset italian_downcase: no rule matches: LTS_Ruleset: # P e r *here* =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD # $ =2E..especially when this comes out of the log of a crashed orca session: # grep SPEECH debug.out |tail SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Grafica menu' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Up' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Giochi menu' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Up' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Audio & Video menu' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Up' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Accessori menu' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Right' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Alacarte - Editor di men=C3=B9' I'll now try to work on it a bit. In the meantime, I patched audsp in festival to also report the currently playing sample in the playing list. This makes two useful patches that I should start to extract properly and send around, but my main priority is still having a long-lasting Italian speech experience. Ciao, Enrico --=20 GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini --fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEooqi9LSwzHl+v6sRAqtrAJ9y2yxCiWlh3jbH/nxrzqMVyCh9MACghPal qzCsGZJ+BpKwEwJ3zDeEXi8= =FyyJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N-- From hanke@brailcom.org Wed Jun 28 11:14:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B62293B01DE for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 11:14:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17406-01 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 11:14:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp-out3.iol.cz (smtp-out3.iol.cz [194.228.2.91]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E9BC3B0167 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 11:14:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from antivir3.iol.cz (avir3 [192.168.30.206]) by smtp-out3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C22AE81B0; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:12:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (antivir3.iol.cz [127.0.0.1]) by antivir3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E6AA42000C; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:12:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp-out3.iol.cz (smtp-out-3.iplanet.iol.cz [192.168.30.28]) by antivir3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E741420006; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:12:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.36] (77.93.broadband2.iol.cz [83.208.93.77]) by smtp-out3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0EA93BEDB; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:12:27 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech From: Hynek Hanke To: Enrico Zini In-Reply-To: <20060627212306.GA24644@viaza> References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> <20060627212306.GA24644@viaza> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:11:01 +0200 Message-Id: <1151507461.3478.51.camel@chopin> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at iol.cz X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.445 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.445 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:14:13 -0000 > Festival is free software, so this is of course fixable. Having looked > at the code, it's simple code and it wouldn't break if it'd be stretched > a bit. But that's not improving a driver: that's improving festival (if > the authors allow) and then having to depend on a very new version of > it. Hi Enrico, also the problem with speech engines doing their own audio output (apart from what you said about Festival) is that this audio output needs to be configured at several places if several engines are used, many places where code needs to be updated if a new audio technology comes etc. > [...] > So the proper way to implement a festival driver seems to me to use the > text-to-wave function and then do a proper handling of playing the > resulting wave, hopefully using the audio playing technology that's > trendy at the moment. Yes, I agree. Actually this is what both Speech Dispatcher and KTTSD are doing and I think I've heard Gnome Speech would also like to go this way in the future. > I looked into esd without understanding if it is > trendy anymore, and I look at gstreamer without understanding if it > isn't a bit too complicated as a default way to play a waveform. This is fairly complicated. I've investigated into possibilities for audio output and I've ended up sumarizing our requirements if such a technology should eventually come in the future and writing my own small library for output to OSS, Alsa and NAS. Please see http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/accessibility/2005-April/000049.html and feel free to have comments. One of the problems is the latency we need. That ruled out both ESD and Gstreamer at that time, I'm not sure what is the state now with Gstreamer. Another thing is that if we are aiming for a desktop independent speech technology, we need desktop independent audio output. > I don't know much about the APIs of other speech engines. If they all > had a text-to-wave function Most of the engines do. Some don't, but this is their drawback (what if I want to have the audio synthesized and save to a file?). As you said, it is very desirable to retrieve the audio for those engines that support it. > , then it can be a wise move to implement a > proper audio scheduler to share among TTS drivers, which could then > (reliably) support proper integration with the audio system of the day, > progress report, interruption and whatever else is needed. This would > ensure that all TTS drivers would have the same (hopefully high) level > of reliability wrt audio output. Yes, that is mine dream too! Would you be wiling to help with this? I think we would first have to see what is new and consider the options again. > > Now, one of the big problems is that Festival doesn't offer proper logs. > > It would often refuse connection for a stupid typo in the configuration > > file and not give any clue to the user. This is something which should > > be fixed. > This can probably be fixed: festival can be told not to load any config > file This is not really useful. Configuration is really needed. > , and log can be implemented adding a couple of printfs before calls > to the C++ API. That is the log from the side of the speech api provider (Gnome Speech etc.). This already exists in Dispatcher and as I said is automatic from a TCP API. I was talking about logs on the side of Festival. You will never be able to discover why a particular voice was not loaded/doesn't work, why a sound icon is not playing, what is the typo in your configuration files, why is it not finding a module (wrong path) and such from just talking to Festival via its API (be it C++ or TCP). Currently the only way for the users to fix such problems is to run Festival from command line and hope it will write some cryptic message to stderr. Then what is left are guesses, past experiences with problems and black magic. We must be able to diagnose problems. >> [from my earlier post] >> Now, one of the big problems is that Festival doesn't offer proper >> logs. You say you find the Festival C code clear and modifications not difficult. If this could be fixed, that would be superb. I don't think Alan would object to include the patch. And it would not introduce a dependency for us. I don't know however how soon it could get into some official release. But I think it is worth looking into. > And something like a TTS driver which becomes the main > form of access to the computer should be designed to properly restart in > case of segfaults in its own code, be it festival or whatever else. Yes, this is something we tried in Speech Dispatcher, but it doesn't always work. We should get this part right in TTS API. The objection that with the TCP API it is easier to see what part is crashing, after which commands exactly, however remains. With regards, Hynek Hanke From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Wed Jun 28 12:35:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8EC53B03F3 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:35:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21095-10 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:35:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 425753B02C2 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:35:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5SGZSpR001661 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 10:35:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1K00M01WMQ6S@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:35:28 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-9.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.9]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1K00D5UWR30M@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:35:28 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:36:40 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech In-reply-to: <1151507461.3478.51.camel@chopin> To: Hynek Hanke Message-id: <1151512600.7045.91.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> <20060627212306.GA24644@viaza> <1151507461.3478.51.camel@chopin> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Enrico Zini , gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:35:51 -0000 Hi Hynek, All: I'm not sure I agree that speech engines should not do their own audio output. While I think you have identified some real problems with that approach, it's not clear that the ".wav file" approach has a low enough latency. If tests show that latency is not a problem, then passing the synthesized audio bits to the driver for processing (perhaps via multiplexing/mixing in most situations, or for pre-emptive audio in others) does seem to have advantages. Hynek, I think you've also identified a good reason for one of the "many layers" in our architecture... we don't really want a bug in the speech engine to crash our TTS service. Using a C API, even when licenses permit, usually means sharing process space with the driver, and for many drivers the code is closed-source, making diagnosis and recovery very difficult indeed. In such a situation we probably need to implement the process-space separation in our own TTS architecture, so that we can restart the engine when things go badly wrong. regards Bill On Wed, 2006-06-28 at 16:11, Hynek Hanke wrote: > > Festival is free software, so this is of course fixable. Having looked > > at the code, it's simple code and it wouldn't break if it'd be stretched > > a bit. But that's not improving a driver: that's improving festival (if > > the authors allow) and then having to depend on a very new version of > > it. > > Hi Enrico, > > also the problem with speech engines doing their own audio output > (apart from what you said about Festival) is that this audio output > needs to be configured at several places if several engines are used, > many places where code needs to be updated if a new audio technology > comes etc. > > > [...] > > So the proper way to implement a festival driver seems to me to use the > > text-to-wave function and then do a proper handling of playing the > > resulting wave, hopefully using the audio playing technology that's > > trendy at the moment. > > Yes, I agree. Actually this is what both Speech Dispatcher and KTTSD are > doing and I think I've heard Gnome Speech would also like to go this way > in the future. > > > I looked into esd without understanding if it is > > trendy anymore, and I look at gstreamer without understanding if it > > isn't a bit too complicated as a default way to play a waveform. > > This is fairly complicated. I've investigated into possibilities for > audio output and I've ended up sumarizing our requirements if such a > technology should eventually come in the future and writing my own > small library for output to OSS, Alsa and NAS. Please see > http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/accessibility/2005-April/000049.html > and feel free to have comments. One of the problems is the latency we > need. That ruled out both ESD and Gstreamer at that time, I'm not sure > what is the state now with Gstreamer. Another thing is that if we are > aiming for a desktop independent speech technology, we need desktop > independent audio output. > > > I don't know much about the APIs of other speech engines. If they all > > had a text-to-wave function > > Most of the engines do. Some don't, but this is their drawback (what if > I want to have the audio synthesized and save to a file?). As you said, > it is very desirable to retrieve the audio for those engines that > support it. > > > , then it can be a wise move to implement a > > proper audio scheduler to share among TTS drivers, which could then > > (reliably) support proper integration with the audio system of the day, > > progress report, interruption and whatever else is needed. This would > > ensure that all TTS drivers would have the same (hopefully high) level > > of reliability wrt audio output. > > Yes, that is mine dream too! Would you be wiling to help with this? > I think we would first have to see what is new and consider the options > again. > > > > Now, one of the big problems is that Festival doesn't offer proper logs. > > > It would often refuse connection for a stupid typo in the configuration > > > file and not give any clue to the user. This is something which should > > > be fixed. > > This can probably be fixed: festival can be told not to load any config > > file > > This is not really useful. Configuration is really needed. > > > , and log can be implemented adding a couple of printfs before calls > > to the C++ API. > > That is the log from the side of the speech api provider (Gnome Speech > etc.). This already exists in Dispatcher and as I said is automatic from > a TCP API. I was talking about logs on the side of Festival. > > You will never be able to discover why a particular voice was not > loaded/doesn't work, why a sound icon is not playing, what is the typo > in your configuration files, why is it not finding a module (wrong path) > and such from just talking to Festival via its API (be it C++ or TCP). > > Currently the only way for the users to fix such problems is to run > Festival from command line and hope it will write some cryptic message > to stderr. Then what is left are guesses, past experiences with problems > and black magic. We must be able to diagnose problems. > > >> [from my earlier post] > >> Now, one of the big problems is that Festival doesn't offer proper > >> logs. > > You say you find the Festival C code clear and modifications not > difficult. If this could be fixed, that would be superb. I don't think > Alan would object to include the patch. And it would not introduce > a dependency for us. I don't know however how soon it could get > into some official release. But I think it is worth looking into. > > > And something like a TTS driver which becomes the main > > form of access to the computer should be designed to properly restart in > > case of segfaults in its own code, be it festival or whatever else. > > Yes, this is something we tried in Speech Dispatcher, but it doesn't > always work. We should get this part right in TTS API. The objection > that with the TCP API it is easier to see what part is crashing, after > which commands exactly, however remains. > > With regards, > Hynek Hanke > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Wed Jun 28 16:08:59 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B8E03B031A for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:08:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31786-04 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:08:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3FDC3B0511 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:08:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-05.sun.com ([192.18.39.115]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5SK8WXs001460 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-05.sun.com by d1-sfbay-05.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J1L006016EG9200@d1-sfbay-05.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.23.60] by d1-sfbay-05.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J1L00BY16M73330@d1-sfbay-05.sun.com>; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:08:29 -0700 From: Peter Korn Subject: Audio recordings from the CSUN Orca & Open Document Format Accessibility sessions now available Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: Gnome accessibility , FSG Accessibility , kde-accessibility@kde.org, accessibility@freedesktop.org, brltty@mielke.cc Message-id: <44A2E1BD.9010803@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.546 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.052, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.546 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:08:59 -0000 Greetings, After a bit of a delay, audio recordings of the two Orca sessions and the ODF Accessibility Panel are now available, for your listening pleasure. We have them up in Ogg Vorbis format (of course). Please see http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/korn/20060628 for details, links, etc. Thanks to Mike Paciello for securing copies of these recordings. Note: you can also view the video directly, through the TV Worldwide website (assuming you have a Windows system to do so...). Regards, Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Wed Jun 28 17:43:05 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 657283B00A3 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:43:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03179-02 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:43:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.207]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D9E03B00AE for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:43:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id n29so631932nzf for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.97.8 with SMTP id u8mr1894344nzb; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.73.15 with HTTP; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:43:03 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: docked window mode in GOk and SOK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.492 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.092, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.492 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:43:05 -0000 SOK is simple onscreen keyboard I am writing to compliment GOK. It is a summer of code project. I've been trying to implement a dock window mode for SOK like that which GOK has. Unfortunately my effort was met with a plethora of problems. Support for such docked windows is unpredictable under dual screens and can cause windows to get stuck or disappear etc. There's not much I can do about this but file bug reports. Attaching GOK or SOK to an edge which has a panel attached results in a focus "war" betwixt the two. I'm planning to work round this by reading the gconf keys for the panel and adjusting the placement of SOK accordingly. Does GOK have a solution in the pipeline? Can anyone think of a better way to go about this? -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Wed Jun 28 20:09:24 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 411C33B0139 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:09:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09072-04 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:09:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Sun.COM [192.18.98.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A1DD3B016E for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:09:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5T08v08022628 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 18:08:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1L00H01HBGZ1@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 01:08:57 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-116-57.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.116.57]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1L00BEBHQXD3@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 01:08:57 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 01:10:10 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: docked window mode in GOk and SOK In-reply-to: To: Chris Jones Message-id: <1151539810.7061.18.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.58 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.58 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 00:09:24 -0000 Hi Chris: There's no good solution to the "share a dock area" problem. We recommend that you don't use both top and bottom panels when running an onscreen keyboard, for this reason. The straightforward solution is to remove either the top or bottom panel, and then use that edge to dock your keyboard. Otherwise you could waste^^H^H^spend a lot of time trying to work around this. I don't believe there's any way to put multiple docks on one edge reliably unless those docks share code (this is how gnome-panel manages this), or some new IPC is invented whereby the docks can share info (and then you have to convince all the users of _NET_WM_STRUT to implement that IPC - good luck!). The existing X API for struts just doesn't accommodate this scenario. regards, Bill On Wed, 2006-06-28 at 22:43, Chris Jones wrote: > SOK is simple onscreen keyboard I am writing to compliment GOK. It is > a summer of code project. > > > I've been trying to implement a dock window mode for SOK like that > which GOK has. > > Unfortunately my effort was met with a plethora of problems. > > Support for such docked windows is unpredictable under dual screens > and can cause windows to get stuck or disappear etc. There's not much > I can do about this but file bug reports. > > Attaching GOK or SOK to an edge which has a panel attached results in > a focus "war" betwixt the two. I'm planning to work round this by > reading the gconf keys for the panel and adjusting the placement of > SOK accordingly. Does GOK have a solution in the pipeline? Can > anyone think of a better way to go about this? > > -- > Chris Jones > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Thu Jun 29 07:02:44 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A80A83B0078 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:02:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05708-04 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:02:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.198]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98E903B010A for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:02:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 8so140092nzo for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 04:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.140.2 with SMTP id n2mr2793650nzd; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 04:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.73.15 with HTTP; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 04:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:02:42 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: docked window mode in GOk and SOK In-Reply-To: <1151539810.7061.18.camel@linux.site> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1151539810.7061.18.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.492 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.092, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.492 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 11:02:44 -0000 Well I think it is possible to detect if the panel is running through dbus, and it's location is stored in gconf. This should be easy to implement. I've already tested it by hardcoding an offset, all that remains to do is reading the gconf values. I don't quite understand this apathy. No other part of the desktop would put up with such an annoying bug. I don't see why it is acceptable here. On 29/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > Hi Chris: > > There's no good solution to the "share a dock area" problem. We > recommend that you don't use both top and bottom panels when running an > onscreen keyboard, for this reason. > > The straightforward solution is to remove either the top or bottom > panel, and then use that edge to dock your keyboard. Otherwise you > could waste^^H^H^spend a lot of time trying to work around this. > > I don't believe there's any way to put multiple docks on one edge > reliably unless those docks share code (this is how gnome-panel manages > this), or some new IPC is invented whereby the docks can share info (and > then you have to convince all the users of _NET_WM_STRUT to implement > that IPC - good luck!). The existing X API for struts just doesn't > accommodate this scenario. > > > regards, > > Bill > > On Wed, 2006-06-28 at 22:43, Chris Jones wrote: > > SOK is simple onscreen keyboard I am writing to compliment GOK. It is > > a summer of code project. > > > > > > I've been trying to implement a dock window mode for SOK like that > > which GOK has. > > > > Unfortunately my effort was met with a plethora of problems. > > > > Support for such docked windows is unpredictable under dual screens > > and can cause windows to get stuck or disappear etc. There's not much > > I can do about this but file bug reports. > > > > Attaching GOK or SOK to an edge which has a panel attached results in > > a focus "war" betwixt the two. I'm planning to work round this by > > reading the gconf keys for the panel and adjusting the placement of > > SOK accordingly. Does GOK have a solution in the pipeline? Can > > anyone think of a better way to go about this? > > > > -- > > Chris Jones > > > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Thu Jun 29 07:12:22 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 269443B0196 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:12:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06178-06 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:12:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A3A83B0078 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:12:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5TBCIZo017365 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 05:12:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1M00701C9XWA@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:12:18 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-116-82.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.116.82]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1M008FPCGHN4@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:12:17 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:13:31 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: docked window mode in GOk and SOK In-reply-to: To: Chris Jones Message-id: <1151579611.7091.17.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151539810.7061.18.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.58 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.58 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 11:12:22 -0000 Reading the gconf values isn't a fully robust solution, since the panel is not the only thing that might use _NET_WM_STRUTS. It's not apathy, it just that fixing this the right way would require new WM API. Bill On Thu, 2006-06-29 at 12:02, Chris Jones wrote: > Well I think it is possible to detect if the panel is running through > dbus, and it's location is stored in gconf. This should be easy to > implement. I've already tested it by hardcoding an offset, all that > remains to do is reading the gconf values. > > I don't quite understand this apathy. No other part of the desktop > would put up with such an annoying bug. I don't see why it is > acceptable here. > > On 29/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > Hi Chris: > > > > There's no good solution to the "share a dock area" problem. We > > recommend that you don't use both top and bottom panels when running an > > onscreen keyboard, for this reason. > > > > The straightforward solution is to remove either the top or bottom > > panel, and then use that edge to dock your keyboard. Otherwise you > > could waste^^H^H^spend a lot of time trying to work around this. > > > > I don't believe there's any way to put multiple docks on one edge > > reliably unless those docks share code (this is how gnome-panel manages > > this), or some new IPC is invented whereby the docks can share info (and > > then you have to convince all the users of _NET_WM_STRUT to implement > > that IPC - good luck!). The existing X API for struts just doesn't > > accommodate this scenario. > > > > > > regards, > > > > Bill > > > > On Wed, 2006-06-28 at 22:43, Chris Jones wrote: > > > SOK is simple onscreen keyboard I am writing to compliment GOK. It is > > > a summer of code project. > > > > > > > > > I've been trying to implement a dock window mode for SOK like that > > > which GOK has. > > > > > > Unfortunately my effort was met with a plethora of problems. > > > > > > Support for such docked windows is unpredictable under dual screens > > > and can cause windows to get stuck or disappear etc. There's not much > > > I can do about this but file bug reports. > > > > > > Attaching GOK or SOK to an edge which has a panel attached results in > > > a focus "war" betwixt the two. I'm planning to work round this by > > > reading the gconf keys for the panel and adjusting the placement of > > > SOK accordingly. Does GOK have a solution in the pipeline? Can > > > anyone think of a better way to go about this? > > > > > > -- > > > Chris Jones > > > > > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > > > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > -- > Chris Jones > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Thu Jun 29 08:47:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CF183B0275 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:47:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12023-08 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:47:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.205]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F3013B00CB for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:47:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id s1so116679nze for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 05:47:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.77.2 with SMTP id z2mr2949809nza; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 05:47:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.73.15 with HTTP; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 05:47:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 13:47:46 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: docked window mode in GOk and SOK In-Reply-To: <1151579611.7091.17.camel@linux.site> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1151539810.7061.18.camel@linux.site> <1151579611.7091.17.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.491 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.091, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.491 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:47:48 -0000 Agreed but it will do for now. Are there any plans for a new WM API. I don't think we can just leave this. On 29/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > Reading the gconf values isn't a fully robust solution, since the panel > is not the only thing that might use _NET_WM_STRUTS. > > It's not apathy, it just that fixing this the right way would require > new WM API. > > Bill > > On Thu, 2006-06-29 at 12:02, Chris Jones wrote: > > Well I think it is possible to detect if the panel is running through > > dbus, and it's location is stored in gconf. This should be easy to > > implement. I've already tested it by hardcoding an offset, all that > > remains to do is reading the gconf values. > > > > I don't quite understand this apathy. No other part of the desktop > > would put up with such an annoying bug. I don't see why it is > > acceptable here. > > > > On 29/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > > Hi Chris: > > > > > > There's no good solution to the "share a dock area" problem. We > > > recommend that you don't use both top and bottom panels when running an > > > onscreen keyboard, for this reason. > > > > > > The straightforward solution is to remove either the top or bottom > > > panel, and then use that edge to dock your keyboard. Otherwise you > > > could waste^^H^H^spend a lot of time trying to work around this. > > > > > > I don't believe there's any way to put multiple docks on one edge > > > reliably unless those docks share code (this is how gnome-panel manages > > > this), or some new IPC is invented whereby the docks can share info (and > > > then you have to convince all the users of _NET_WM_STRUT to implement > > > that IPC - good luck!). The existing X API for struts just doesn't > > > accommodate this scenario. > > > > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > On Wed, 2006-06-28 at 22:43, Chris Jones wrote: > > > > SOK is simple onscreen keyboard I am writing to compliment GOK. It is > > > > a summer of code project. > > > > > > > > > > > > I've been trying to implement a dock window mode for SOK like that > > > > which GOK has. > > > > > > > > Unfortunately my effort was met with a plethora of problems. > > > > > > > > Support for such docked windows is unpredictable under dual screens > > > > and can cause windows to get stuck or disappear etc. There's not much > > > > I can do about this but file bug reports. > > > > > > > > Attaching GOK or SOK to an edge which has a panel attached results in > > > > a focus "war" betwixt the two. I'm planning to work round this by > > > > reading the gconf keys for the panel and adjusting the placement of > > > > SOK accordingly. Does GOK have a solution in the pipeline? Can > > > > anyone think of a better way to go about this? > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Chris Jones > > > > > > > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > > > > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Chris Jones > > > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Thu Jun 29 08:59:04 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DD563B0078 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:59:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12865-06 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:59:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 178A23B011B for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:59:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5TCwk4T017434 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 06:59:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1M00901HD4HI@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 13:58:54 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-173.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.173]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1M0082MHE5N4@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 13:58:53 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 14:00:07 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: docked window mode in GOk and SOK In-reply-to: To: Chris Jones Message-id: <1151586006.14116.6.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151539810.7061.18.camel@linux.site> <1151579611.7091.17.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.58 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.58 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:59:04 -0000 On Thu, 2006-06-29 at 13:47, Chris Jones wrote: > Agreed but it will do for now. > > Are there any plans for a new WM API. I don't think we can just leave this. The wm-spec-list@gnome.org is the place to take the discussion. Good luck convincing folks of the value of multiple docks on the same edge of the screen, though... seems like a usability misfeature. At least where GOK was concerned it seemed preferable to reduce the number of panels. The second panel in Gnome doesn't add much functionality that couldn't be achieved by just combining the two panels. Of course you can also work around this by putting both Gnome panels on the same edge of the screen, which arguably would result in better usability anyhow. I think there is value in having the onscreen keyboard sit "on its own", having it share the edge with a panel means it's harder for the user to quickly scan for the desired characters. Bill > On 29/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > Reading the gconf values isn't a fully robust solution, since the panel > > is not the only thing that might use _NET_WM_STRUTS. > > > > It's not apathy, it just that fixing this the right way would require > > new WM API. > > > > Bill > > > > On Thu, 2006-06-29 at 12:02, Chris Jones wrote: > > > Well I think it is possible to detect if the panel is running through > > > dbus, and it's location is stored in gconf. This should be easy to > > > implement. I've already tested it by hardcoding an offset, all that > > > remains to do is reading the gconf values. > > > > > > I don't quite understand this apathy. No other part of the desktop > > > would put up with such an annoying bug. I don't see why it is > > > acceptable here. > > > > > > On 29/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > > > Hi Chris: > > > > > > > > There's no good solution to the "share a dock area" problem. We > > > > recommend that you don't use both top and bottom panels when running an > > > > onscreen keyboard, for this reason. > > > > > > > > The straightforward solution is to remove either the top or bottom > > > > panel, and then use that edge to dock your keyboard. Otherwise you > > > > could waste^^H^H^spend a lot of time trying to work around this. > > > > > > > > I don't believe there's any way to put multiple docks on one edge > > > > reliably unless those docks share code (this is how gnome-panel manages > > > > this), or some new IPC is invented whereby the docks can share info (and > > > > then you have to convince all the users of _NET_WM_STRUT to implement > > > > that IPC - good luck!). The existing X API for struts just doesn't > > > > accommodate this scenario. > > > > > > > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > On Wed, 2006-06-28 at 22:43, Chris Jones wrote: > > > > > SOK is simple onscreen keyboard I am writing to compliment GOK. It is > > > > > a summer of code project. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've been trying to implement a dock window mode for SOK like that > > > > > which GOK has. > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately my effort was met with a plethora of problems. > > > > > > > > > > Support for such docked windows is unpredictable under dual screens > > > > > and can cause windows to get stuck or disappear etc. There's not much > > > > > I can do about this but file bug reports. > > > > > > > > > > Attaching GOK or SOK to an edge which has a panel attached results in > > > > > a focus "war" betwixt the two. I'm planning to work round this by > > > > > reading the gconf keys for the panel and adjusting the placement of > > > > > SOK accordingly. Does GOK have a solution in the pipeline? Can > > > > > anyone think of a better way to go about this? > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Chris Jones > > > > > > > > > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > > > > > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Chris Jones > > > > > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > > > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > -- > Chris Jones > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From Evan.Yan@Sun.COM Fri Jun 2 03:30:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22E083B0387 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 03:30:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06467-05 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 03:30:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sineb-mail-2.sun.com (sineb-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.19.7]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1A803B1061 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 03:29:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fe-apac-05.sun.com (fe-apac-05.sun.com [192.18.19.176] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k527TuS2009928 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:29:57 +0800 (SGT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J080000125VLS00@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Evan.Yan@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:29:56 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.158.144.94] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J08003J425W5DGH@mail-apac.sun.com> for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:29:56 +0800 (SGT) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:31:13 +0800 From: Evan Yan Sender: Evan.Yan@Sun.COM To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-id: <447FE941.4080001@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Can GOK work with autocompletion? X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 07:30:36 -0000 Hi all, I'm now working on a mozilla a11y bug, about autocompletion. The URL of the bug is https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=338242 I'm not sure whether GOK can work with autocompletion. When I input something used before into a textbox, the autocompletion will pop up, could GOK update to show the autocompletion items? I also tried that in Evolution. When writing a email, inputing a mail address which have been in the contact list, the autocompletion pop up, GOK also can't work with it. Is that a GOK bug? Thanks, Evan From alastairirving19@hotmail.com Fri Jun 2 07:41:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 159813B040E for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 07:41:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22456-10 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 07:41:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (bay112-dav20.bay112.hotmail.com [64.4.26.92]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCD603B03DE for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 07:41:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 04:41:17 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.129.189.168 by BAY112-DAV20.phx.gbl with DAV; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 11:41:14 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.129.189.168] X-Originating-Email: [alastairirving19@hotmail.com] X-Sender: alastairirving19@hotmail.com From: "Alastair Irving" To: Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 12:41:24 +0100 Message-ID: <000201c68639$7a31a6d0$0301a8c0@alastair> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C68641.DBF60ED0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2616 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Importance: Normal X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Jun 2006 11:41:17.0982 (UTC) FILETIME=[7621C3E0:01C68639] X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.544 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.364, BAYES_50=0.001, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST=1.708, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: 0.544 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Problem with orca X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 11:41:20 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C68641.DBF60ED0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello I have just installed orca 0.2.4 on my fedora core 5 laptop. The compilation went without errors. However, when I load orca, it says "orca initialised, switching to focus tracking mode", and then speech stops. I am informed that a message saying that the gnome panel has unexpectedly quit is displayed. I had this same problem with the version of gnopernicus shipped with fc5, but when I reinstalled from source it was resolved. Has anyone come across this before? Alastair Irving e-mail (and MSN): alastairirving19@hotmail.com ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C68641.DBF60ED0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Hello
 
I have = just=20 installed orca 0.2.4 on my fedora core 5 laptop.  The compilation = went=20 without errors.  However, when I load orca, it says "orca = initialised,=20 switching to focus tracking mode", and then speech stops.  I am = informed=20 that a message saying that the gnome panel has unexpectedly quit is=20 displayed. 
 
I had = this same=20 problem with the version of gnopernicus shipped with fc5, but when I = reinstalled=20 from source it was resolved.
 
Has = anyone come=20 across this before?
 
Alastair = Irving
e-mail (and = MSN): alastairirving19@hotmail.com=
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C68641.DBF60ED0-- From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Fri Jun 2 10:57:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D58D13B1189 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 10:57:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01532-10 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 10:57:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96D273B1174 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 10:57:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-04.sun.com ([192.18.39.114]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k52EvGNh007567 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 07:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-04.sun.com by d1-sfbay-04.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0800501LJXA200@d1-sfbay-04.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 07:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.21.165] by d1-sfbay-04.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J08000OEMVDEZ40@d1-sfbay-04.sun.com> for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 07:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 07:57:11 -0700 From: Peter Korn In-reply-to: <447FE941.4080001@Sun.COM> Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: Evan Yan Message-id: <448051C7.7050307@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <447FE941.4080001@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (Windows/20060308) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.523 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.075, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.523 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Can GOK work with autocompletion? X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 14:57:57 -0000 Hi Evan, This is an interesting idea - having GOK work with auto-completion! GOK has its own work completion algorithm, but that by its nature cannot have application-specific knowledge, and so generally won't do as good a job. The question is, how should GOK show such application-specific word completion, and how do we communicate that between the application and GOK via AT-SPI. Evan, David - any thoughts? Regards, Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. > Hi all, > > I'm now working on a mozilla a11y bug, about autocompletion. The URL of > the bug is > https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=338242 > > I'm not sure whether GOK can work with autocompletion. > When I input something used before into a textbox, the autocompletion > will pop up, could GOK update to show the autocompletion items? > I also tried that in Evolution. When writing a email, inputing a mail > address which have been in the contact list, the autocompletion pop up, > GOK also can't work with it. > > Is that a GOK bug? > > Thanks, > Evan > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > From david.bolter@utoronto.ca Fri Jun 2 15:28:02 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F18553B0210 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:28:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18925-03 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:27:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bureau8.utcc.utoronto.ca (bureau8.utcc.utoronto.ca [128.100.132.18]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B6C63B0B87 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:27:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail5.ns.utoronto.ca ([128.100.132.37] EHLO webmail5.ns.utoronto.ca ident: IDENT-NOT-QUERIED [port 51626]) by bureau8.utcc.utoronto.ca with ESMTP id <25121-29744>; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:25:00 -0400 Received: by webmail5.ns.utoronto.ca id <873031-8996>; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:24:50 -0400 Received: from 64.231.159.101 ( [64.231.159.101]) as user bolterda@10.143.0.52 by webmail.utoronto.ca with HTTP; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:24:46 -0400 Message-ID: <1149276286.4480907eece14@webmail.utoronto.ca> Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:24:46 -0400 From: david.bolter@utoronto.ca To: Peter Korn References: <447FE941.4080001@Sun.COM> <448051C7.7050307@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <448051C7.7050307@sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.638 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_REAL_NAME=0.961] X-Spam-Score: -1.638 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Evan Yan , gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Can GOK work with autocompletion? X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 19:28:02 -0000 Hi guys. Technically I'm on holiday today. I think we could choose an existing event (or propose a new one) for notification regarding this... and GOK could create a key representing the current app-autocompletion. Nice idea guys! cheers, D Quoting Peter Korn : > Hi Evan, > > This is an interesting idea - having GOK work with auto-completion! GOK > has its own work completion algorithm, but that by its nature cannot > have application-specific knowledge, and so generally won't do as good a > job. > > The question is, how should GOK show such application-specific word > completion, and how do we communicate that between the application and > GOK via AT-SPI. Evan, David - any thoughts? > > > Regards, > > Peter Korn > Accessibility Architect, > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > Hi all, > > > > I'm now working on a mozilla a11y bug, about autocompletion. The URL of > > the bug is > > https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=338242 > > > > I'm not sure whether GOK can work with autocompletion. > > When I input something used before into a textbox, the autocompletion > > will pop up, could GOK update to show the autocompletion items? > > I also tried that in Evolution. When writing a email, inputing a mail > > address which have been in the contact list, the autocompletion pop up, > > GOK also can't work with it. > > > > Is that a GOK bug? > > > > Thanks, > > Evan > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Fri Jun 2 16:00:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C770E3B0339 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 16:00:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20811-03 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 16:00:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9B203B015D for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 16:00:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-01.sun.com ([192.18.39.111]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k52JxvUS028281 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 12:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-01.sun.com by d1-sfbay-01.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0900G010IPLV00@d1-sfbay-01.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 12:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.21.165] by d1-sfbay-01.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0900CKK0VV9U10@d1-sfbay-01.sun.com>; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 12:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 12:59:53 -0700 From: Peter Korn In-reply-to: <1149276286.4480907eece14@webmail.utoronto.ca> Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: david.bolter@utoronto.ca Message-id: <448098B9.8080204@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <447FE941.4080001@Sun.COM> <448051C7.7050307@sun.com> <1149276286.4480907eece14@webmail.utoronto.ca> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (Windows/20060308) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.528 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.070, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.528 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Evan Yan , gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Can GOK work with autocompletion? X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:00:08 -0000 Hi David, Hmmm... I wonder about using the AccessibleAction interface for this, with a naming convention we might all follow for the . Something like: "auto-complete:" as the action name, where "" is the actual auto-complete text that would be inserted (and thus displayed on the GOK key). Then the tooltip-like window that appears with the auto-complete options would implement the ATK_Action interface. This is more heavy-weight than having a special role for the tooltip-like window with text to be extracted, but it is also less constraining of the user interface implementation that programmers render. Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. > Hi guys. Technically I'm on holiday today. I think we could choose an existing > event (or propose a new one) for notification regarding this... and GOK could > create a key representing the current app-autocompletion. > > Nice idea guys! > > cheers, > D > Quoting Peter Korn : > > >> Hi Evan, >> >> This is an interesting idea - having GOK work with auto-completion! GOK >> has its own work completion algorithm, but that by its nature cannot >> have application-specific knowledge, and so generally won't do as good a >> job. >> >> The question is, how should GOK show such application-specific word >> completion, and how do we communicate that between the application and >> GOK via AT-SPI. Evan, David - any thoughts? >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Peter Korn >> Accessibility Architect, >> Sun Microsystems, Inc. >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I'm now working on a mozilla a11y bug, about autocompletion. The URL of >>> the bug is >>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=338242 >>> >>> I'm not sure whether GOK can work with autocompletion. >>> When I input something used before into a textbox, the autocompletion >>> will pop up, could GOK update to show the autocompletion items? >>> I also tried that in Evolution. When writing a email, inputing a mail >>> address which have been in the contact list, the autocompletion pop up, >>> GOK also can't work with it. >>> >>> Is that a GOK bug? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Evan >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > From Evan.Yan@Sun.COM Sun Jun 4 13:47:19 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DBC03B0149 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 13:47:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00810-07 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 13:47:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sineb-mail-1.sun.com (sineb-mail-1.sun.com [192.18.19.6]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE6513B0130 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 13:47:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fe-apac-06.sun.com (fe-apac-06.sun.com [192.18.19.177] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k54HlBlW001893 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:47:13 +0800 (SGT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0C00C01JYLYV00@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Evan.Yan@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 01:47:11 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.150.145.22] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0C00D5YK1F36A2@mail-apac.sun.com>; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 01:47:11 +0800 (SGT) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 01:46:27 +0800 From: Evan Yan In-reply-to: <448098B9.8080204@sun.com> Sender: Evan.Yan@Sun.COM To: Peter Korn Message-id: <44831C73.8020402@Sun.COM> Organization: sceri MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <447FE941.4080001@Sun.COM> <448051C7.7050307@sun.com> <1149276286.4480907eece14@webmail.utoronto.ca> <448098B9.8080204@sun.com> User-Agent: Mail/News 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060515) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: Cc: david.bolter@utoronto.ca, Ginn.Chen@Sun.COM, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Can GOK work with autocompletion? X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 17:47:19 -0000 Hi Peter & David, I feel that app-autocompletion is something similar to pop-up menu. Could we leverage the implementation of accessible pop-up menu? I found GOK can update to show autocompletion items under some particular situation, like the following steps: 1. start Firefox and locate to www.google.com, focus on the "search" textbox; 2. select GOK UI-Grab 3. click on the "search" textbox by mouse directly, not through GOK, that makes the autocompletion pop up. Then, GOK will update to show autocompletion items. However, clicking on the items shown by GOK has no effect except collapsing the autocompletion window. Hope this could help. Besides GOK can't work with autocompletion, when autocompletion in Firefox pops up, it takes minutes for GOK to start responsing any action on it. I could see by the event-listener tool of at-spi that there are hundreds of events through GOK and Firefox, it seems GOK are refreshing all the atk objects. is that a normal phenomenon or somthing wrong? Thank you, Evan Peter Korn wrote: > Hi David, > > Hmmm... I wonder about using the AccessibleAction interface for this, > with a naming convention we might all follow for the . Something like: > > "auto-complete:" > > as the action name, where "" is the actual auto-complete text > that would be inserted (and thus displayed on the GOK key). Then the > tooltip-like window that appears with the auto-complete options would > implement the ATK_Action interface. > This is more heavy-weight than having a special role for the > tooltip-like window with text to be extracted, but it is also less > constraining of the user interface implementation that programmers > render. > > > Peter Korn > Accessibility Architect, > Sun Microsystems, Inc. >> Hi guys. Technically I'm on holiday today. I think we could choose >> an existing >> event (or propose a new one) for notification regarding this... and >> GOK could >> create a key representing the current app-autocompletion. >> >> Nice idea guys! >> >> cheers, >> D >> Quoting Peter Korn : >> >> >>> Hi Evan, >>> >>> This is an interesting idea - having GOK work with auto-completion! >>> GOK has its own work completion algorithm, but that by its nature >>> cannot have application-specific knowledge, and so generally won't >>> do as good a job. >>> >>> The question is, how should GOK show such application-specific word >>> completion, and how do we communicate that between the application >>> and GOK via AT-SPI. Evan, David - any thoughts? >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Peter Korn >>> Accessibility Architect, >>> Sun Microsystems, Inc. >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I'm now working on a mozilla a11y bug, about autocompletion. The >>>> URL of >>>> the bug is >>>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=338242 >>>> >>>> I'm not sure whether GOK can work with autocompletion. >>>> When I input something used before into a textbox, the autocompletion >>>> will pop up, could GOK update to show the autocompletion items? >>>> I also tried that in Evolution. When writing a email, inputing a mail >>>> address which have been in the contact list, the autocompletion pop >>>> up, >>>> GOK also can't work with it. >>>> >>>> Is that a GOK bug? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Evan >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >>>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >>>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >> > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From bram@bramd.nl Sun Jun 4 17:55:08 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E18483B01B7 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:55:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13065-09 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:55:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bramd.nl (dsl251-4-101.fastxdsl.nl [80.101.4.251]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72A083B02B6 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:55:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (linux.bramd.nl [127.0.0.1]) by bramd.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54ED5144103 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 23:54:59 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: bramd.nl antivirus Received: from bramd.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (linux.lan.bramd.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n9CAfyI2djAx for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 23:54:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bramdd.lan.bramd.nl (bramdd.lan.bramd.nl [192.168.1.12]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by bramd.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53A33120109 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 23:54:55 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 23:54:47 +0200 From: Bram Duvigneau X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.80.03) Professional Organization: BramD.nl X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1759379234.20060604235447@bramd.nl> To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.464 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.464 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Gnopernicus and the new ubuntu installer X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Bram Duvigneau List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 21:55:08 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: MD5 Hi all, I just tried the new Ubuntu Dapper Drake live cd and the ubuntu express installer with gnopernicus. Gnopernicus is running quite well from the cd, but I had to do a few steps to get the installer talking: - - - Launch gnopernicus - - - Enable assistive technology support - - - Log out and in again - - - Launch gnopernicus from terminal, otherwise gnome-panel crshes - - - Get a root shell with sudo -s - - - Launch gnopernicus from there to ge taccess to the installer So far so good, but when I get to the screen where I can select my location, I'm getting stuck on the combobox of citties. I selected English as system language, therefor I'm only getting citties in the usa. I tried everything, but I couldn't get to citties in Europe. Does someone know how to manage this? Maybe it's also a good idea to change this in future versions to something easier to use for the blind, because this isn't really friendly for new blind linux users. Bram -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6 iQEVAwUARINWqq7p29XxtEd/AQFVmggAg7dwV93Mm1RY0Zh08gzi4AqUBBy4ZfmZ mPvrGkmVHOab2PvLu8wdTqMFBmEmPnmhL1M3nHUCV+eKazALhaAff+jCs3o3Z2th YyQHUcypY1Won/8lxoQvv0el2n33DJg9yfGIjxp0iIs1n5HxSnMf3X2eGKQsGtvi 2n3pR85Zj/pezsTRBMHGNy8H60raMYPY5UascT8H630feZqlMksuSZDxn47cJxLB doPU+i2hUVtY3ZovNANW34jYCEF0Uxux60ZcQUS8tauz0733v3MTeJYuX57iTU+2 5KGRwC9AqRQmS9CiMiuMQwv4QATK6Iy/IyfUBdeBOJyDdZMQmuTzxw== =MsLy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nowindows@terrencevak.net Sun Jun 4 21:29:30 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16F823B0448 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 21:29:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24753-03 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 21:29:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtpout08-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout08-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.12]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 128B23B0356 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 21:29:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 31491 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 01:29:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.223.182.2) by smtpout08-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.12) with ESMTP; 05 Jun 2006 01:29:25 -0000 Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:29:16 -0800 (AKDT) From: nowindows@terrencevak.net X-X-Sender: nowindows@Knoppix To: Bram Duvigneau In-Reply-To: <1759379234.20060604235447@bramd.nl> Message-ID: References: <1759379234.20060604235447@bramd.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.221 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.74, NO_REAL_NAME=0.961] X-Spam-Score: 0.221 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Gnopernicus and the new ubuntu installer X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 01:29:30 -0000 Do you still have the URL for that installer by chance? I'd like to try that instead of the patched-together arrangement I have now, which isn't working too well. Thanks, Terrence From petra@access-for-all.ch Mon Jun 5 01:01:19 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98AC23B0278 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:01:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03080-09 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:01:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from srv94-187.ip-tech.ch (backup01.scalera.ch [195.129.94.187]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F3023B039A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:01:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 26277 invoked by uid 503); 5 Jun 2006 05:08:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blade1-4.iptech.localdomain) (10.10.1.250) by 0 with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 05:08:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 22427 invoked by uid 104); 5 Jun 2006 05:01:10 -0000 Received: from 62.203.161.3 by blade1-4 (envelope-from , uid 408) with qmail-scanner-1.25 (clamdscan: 0.87.1. spamassassin: 2.64. Clear:RC:1(62.203.161.3):. Processed in 0.058345 secs); 05 Jun 2006 05:01:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO LESE-SCHREIBSYS) (62.203.161.3) by blade1-4.iptech.localdomain with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 05:01:09 -0000 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 07:01:12 +0200 From: Petra Ritter X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.0.1.33) Home X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <467747190.20060605070112@access-for-all.ch> To: "gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.136 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: 0.136 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Ubuntu Dapper Drake live cd X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Petra Ritter List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 05:01:19 -0000 Hello, I tried the Ubuntu Dapper Drake live cd, too and I run in to two accessibility problems. 1th If I start Ubuntu with the Option 'Blindness from the Accessebility Men=FC Gnopernicus commes up however the speech does mot work after the system is up and runing. Petra From petra@access-for-all.ch Mon Jun 5 01:25:24 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44F793B03EA for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:25:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04430-09 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:25:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from srv94-187.ip-tech.ch (backup01.scalera.ch [195.129.94.187]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6A063B026A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:25:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 5711 invoked by uid 503); 5 Jun 2006 05:32:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blade1-4.iptech.localdomain) (10.10.1.250) by 0 with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 05:32:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 30910 invoked by uid 104); 5 Jun 2006 05:25:20 -0000 Received: from 62.203.161.3 by blade1-4 (envelope-from , uid 408) with qmail-scanner-1.25 (clamdscan: 0.87.1. spamassassin: 2.64. Clear:RC:1(62.203.161.3):. Processed in 0.055812 secs); 05 Jun 2006 05:25:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO LESE-SCHREIBSYS) (62.203.161.3) by blade1-4.iptech.localdomain with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 05:25:20 -0000 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 07:25:23 +0200 From: Petra Ritter X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.0.1.33) Home X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <14710359560.20060605072523@access-for-all.ch> To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.32 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.144, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.32 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Ubuntu Dapper Drake live cd X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Petra Ritter List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 05:25:25 -0000 Hello , I tried the Ubuntu Dapper Drake live cd, too and I run in to two accessibility problems. 1th If I start Ubuntu with the Option 'Blindness from the Accessebility Men=FC Gnopernicus commes up however the speech does not work after the system is up and runing. 2th I diden't managed to read the Help from Gnopernicus itself. Gnopernicus just diden't read it. The same problem appear in Firefox and in Evolution. It seam thet Gnopernicus cant read any HTML dokument. Assuming the help from Gnopernicus is HTML, too I tried alrady F7 in order to activate the "Carat Browsing" however with no success at all. Is there anything else that I can try to get Gnopernicus to read the Help? Or is there anywhere on the Internet a documentation for Gnome exept the Tabele of the Layers on the Gnopernicus Website? Petra From henrik@ubuntu.com Mon Jun 5 05:20:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACF893B00CE for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 05:20:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17743-10 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 05:20:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 116903B010D for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 05:20:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.0.10] (henrik.gotadsl.co.uk [82.133.122.11]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44EE83392D4; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 10:09:21 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <4483F4C6.8080109@ubuntu.com> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:09:26 +0100 From: Henrik Nilsen Omma User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060522) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org References: <1759379234.20060604235447@bramd.nl> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.591 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.008, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.591 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Gnopernicus and the new ubuntu installer X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 09:20:07 -0000 nowindows@terrencevak.net wrote: > Do you still have the URL for that installer by chance? I'd like > to try that instead of the patched-together arrangement I have now, which > isn't working too well. > The Ubuntu Live CD can be downloaded from here: http://www.ubuntu.com/download That comes in the form of an ISO image that must be burned to a CD, and then boot with that CD. Some instructions on using the accessibility features are here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/doc/StartGuide Note that the system does have some limitations. - Henrik From henrik@ubuntu.com Mon Jun 5 05:25:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43B9A3B031D for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 05:25:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18450-02 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 05:25:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AC5C3B010D for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 05:25:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.0.10] (henrik.gotadsl.co.uk [82.133.122.11]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FB2433AF0D; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 10:19:11 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <4483F714.6040203@ubuntu.com> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:19:16 +0100 From: Henrik Nilsen Omma User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060522) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org References: <1759379234.20060604235447@bramd.nl> In-Reply-To: <1759379234.20060604235447@bramd.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Gnopernicus and the new ubuntu installer X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 09:25:20 -0000 Bram Duvigneau wrote: > Gnopernicus is running quite well from the cd, but I had to do a few > steps to get the installer talking: > > - - - Launch gnopernicus > - - - Enable assistive technology support > - - - Log out and in again > - - - Launch gnopernicus from terminal, otherwise gnome-panel crshes > - - - Get a root shell with sudo -s > - - - Launch gnopernicus from there to ge taccess to the installer > > So far so good, but when I get to the screen where I can select my > location, I'm getting stuck on the combobox of citties. I selected > English as system language, therefor I'm only getting citties in the > usa. I tried everything, but I couldn't get to citties in Europe. Does > someone know how to manage this? Maybe it's also a good idea to change > this in future versions to something easier to use for the blind, > because this isn't really friendly for new blind linux users. > Hi Bram, Thanks for testing and providing this work-around. I've added your description to this page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/doc/StartGuide The Ubiquity installer is basically a very new piece of software with several rough edges. Well done in getting it to work with speech at all using the sudo command. Our goal is obviously to provide a trouble free install path where everything 'just works' as expected. This kind of testing is very valuable in that regard. This is our first attempt ad doing it though, so we expect to have a more polished offering in the October/November release. It would also be useful if you could file a bug about the city combo-box here: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+filebug Thanks. - Henrik From ermengol@gmail.com Thu Jun 8 10:52:26 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E9F53B0524 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 10:52:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13363-01 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 10:52:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.193]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8421F3B0F2F for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 10:52:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so419164wxd for ; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 07:52:23 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=iMykGjuJPdkSVqsogvrI8pNPbnPzh/k/ZlsMh4fYlBeHomvTmrqVXKrE6SJ/1/4w8jwRyEPx1n2j35hZf+ztqo2Hd1/wOT/0G/SyLYWt79JeDd3k2goiEf1W2hRDahYvAQeK0PziznPQKlK2m6XFSXLm7rF3rzK8slShaUb/iqA= Received: by 10.70.100.17 with SMTP id x17mr2173736wxb; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 07:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.43.13 with HTTP; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 07:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 16:52:23 +0200 From: "Ermengol Bota" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.593 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.593 X-Spam-Level: Subject: gnopernicus-magnifier. Full screen magnifier with dummy driver X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 14:52:26 -0000 Hello, I'm trying to use the gnopernicus-magnifier as a full screen magnifier. I followed the instructions at: http://www.gnome.org/learn/access-guide/2.10/apas03.html I did it with the dummy driver, but this approach have a problem and is that you have two displays (one on the left to the other) One display is the zoomed version of the other. But the mouse can move freely from on display to another, so if you are working with the zoomed display and you move the mouse to the left (or right, it depends on X config) then you "move" to the non-zoomed display. And this is a little bit annoying :) Does any body knows about a workaround for this? or any other approach to use full screen magnification on linux? Thanks a lot -- * Ermengol * /*********************************************** * Els ordinadors no resolen problemes, * * simplement executen solucions. * ************************************************/ From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Fri Jun 9 02:15:04 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FC353B00F4 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 02:15:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32071-05 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 02:15:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD48D3B00C3 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 02:15:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-04.sun.com ([192.18.39.114]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k596EsDX009979 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 23:14:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-04.sun.com by d1-sfbay-04.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0K00I01SETE000@d1-sfbay-04.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:14:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([63.207.212.14]) by d1-sfbay-04.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0K00IGLXCT2510@d1-sfbay-04.sun.com>; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:14:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:14:52 -0700 From: Peter Korn In-reply-to: Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: Ermengol Bota Message-id: <448911DC.4090607@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: gnopernicus-magnifier. Full screen magnifier with dummy driver X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 06:15:04 -0000 Hi Ermengol, This is a problem with our current magnification architecture. We are looking forward to magnifiers that are based on several X extensions - most especially the COMPOSITE extension - which will allow us to avoid this bit of hackery. Unfortunately we aren't quite ready with those yet. Regards, Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. > Hello, > I'm trying to use the gnopernicus-magnifier as a full screen magnifier. > I followed the instructions at: > http://www.gnome.org/learn/access-guide/2.10/apas03.html > > I did it with the dummy driver, but this approach have a problem and > is that you have two displays (one on the left to the other) > One display is the zoomed version of the other. But the mouse can move > freely from on display to another, so if you are working with the > zoomed display and you move the mouse to the left (or right, it > depends on X config) then you "move" to the non-zoomed display. And > this is a little bit annoying :) > > Does any body knows about a workaround for this? or any other approach > to use full screen magnification on linux? > > Thanks a lot > From enrico@enricozini.org Sat Jun 10 05:22:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 168EE3B019E for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 05:22:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22030-10 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 05:22:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agnus.ngi.it (agnus.ngi.it [88.149.128.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 705403B0130 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 05:22:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eddie.casa (81-174-12-206.f5.ngi.it [81.174.12.206]) by agnus.ngi.it (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5A9Mn6W017903 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 11:22:52 +0200 Received: from eddie.casa (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eddie.casa (Postfix) with ESMTP id A278D3000BA for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 11:22:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from marvin.casa (marvin.casa [192.168.1.2]) by eddie.casa (Postfix) with ESMTP id 920CA3000B9 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 11:22:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from enrico by marvin.casa with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1FozgF-00037s-00 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 11:22:55 +0200 Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 11:22:55 +0200 From: Enrico Zini To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060610092255.GA9803@marvin.casa> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060403 Sender: Enrico Zini X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.406 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.058, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.406 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Fixing brittle speech support on Dapper X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 09:22:57 -0000 --HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Hello, Hi, I'm Enrico, my current task is to get Dapper to become a usable desktop for Italian blind people. I've been fiddling with the speech accessibility features of Dapper for a few days now, and I found lots of ways to get gnome-speech to hang, Now I'm looking for ways to keep it working. One hanging scenario: - freshly installed dapper, Italian localization - disable esd from preferences/audio - enable accessibility and screen reader from preferences/accessibility - log out and in again - gnopernicus works - disable screen reader (but not accessibility) from preferences/accessibility - log out and in again - orca-setup, works fine, speaks - orca - speech doesn't work anymore. test-speech exits with: Exception Unknown CORBA exception id: 'IDL:omg.org/CORBA/COMM_FAILURE:1.0' getting voice list. Another hanging scenario: - freshly installed dapper, Italian localization - disable esd from preferences/audio - enable 'universe' and install festlex-ifd, festvox-italp16k and festvox-itapc16k to have italian synthesis - enable accessibility and screen reader from preferences/accessibility - log out and in again - gnopernicus works in English - go in the preferences/speech/voices menu and choose the italian female voice for all voices, raise the rate a bit. The female voice speaks when raising the rate. - close the Voices menu, no more speech. test-speech exits with: Exception Unknown CORBA exception id: 'IDL:omg.org/CORBA/COMM_FAILURE:1.0' getting voice list. In test-speech, the Speech Dispatcher output doesn't work. The festival one works, but breaks after a minimum of use, where minimum of use means just choosing the voices I'd like to use. What can I look/try to get myself unstuck? Ciao, Enrico -- GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini --HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEio9v9LSwzHl+v6sRAmOUAJ9bdcQUGWLxi/5ojqTEJaDxYmirpQCgiBtj KWj7kZTPjPpyTXmRLrDZ9Sg= =uxCv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD-- From janina@opera.rednote.net Sat Jun 10 12:22:02 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 732FA3B0237; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 12:22:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14037-10; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 12:22:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (opera.rednote.net [70.84.142.212]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAC243B00F8; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 12:22:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5AGLvPF026152; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 16:21:57 GMT Received: (from janina@localhost) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k5AGLsVu026151; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 12:21:54 -0400 Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 12:21:54 -0400 From: Janina Sajka To: Orca screen reader developers Message-ID: <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Operating-System: Linux opera.rednote.net 2.6.16-1.2122_FC5spksmp Organization: Capital Accessibility LLC (http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com) X-PGP-Key: http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com/JaninaSajka_gpg_key.html X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.276 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.277, BAYES_50=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.276 X-Spam-Level: Cc: blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, speakup@braille.uwo.ca, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 16:22:02 -0000 Mike Pedersen writes: > We have been informed, however, that there can be only one screen > reader/magnifier in the GNOME desktop. > That's a rather outrageous attitude. Who made that decision? Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application? The day may come when there is but one screen reader on the GUI desktop, but I rather doubt it given that both Gnome and KDE are likely to remain with us. However, to proactively restrict inclusion while all manner of other (sometimes only half-baked) applications are included rankles. Frankly, it's an insult. This kind of grudging support for accessibility needs to be stopped right now. In fact, it's a stretch to even call it "support." Do these deciders wonder that people in Massachusetts got so upset last year over the simple move to an open file format. Given this kind of attitude, they'll never change their minds Always remember that just proclaiming, "we support accessibility," doesn't make it so. We will not judge by published proclamations but rather by deeds. -- Janina Sajka Phone: +1.240.715.1272 Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC http://CapitalAccessibility.Com Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada--Go to http://ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more. Chair, Accessibility Workgroup Free Standards Group (FSG) janina@freestandards.org http://a11y.org From henrik@ubuntu.com Sat Jun 10 15:04:59 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F0473B022A; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:04:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21539-04; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:04:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 114EF3B00D0; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:04:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.0.10] (henrik.gotadsl.co.uk [82.133.122.11]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F102339074; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 20:00:56 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 20:01:00 +0100 From: Henrik Nilsen Omma User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060522) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Orca screen reader developers References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> In-Reply-To: <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, speakup@braille.uwo.ca, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:04:59 -0000 Janina Sajka wrote: > Mike Pedersen writes: > >> We have been informed, however, that there can be only one screen >> reader/magnifier in the GNOME desktop. >> >> > That's a rather outrageous attitude. Who made that decision? > > Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media > player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application? > I think you may have misinterpreted this slightly. The idea is that there will only be one official screen reader in Gnome, as there indeed is only one email client (Evolution), one browser (Epiphany), one office suite (gnome office, using abiword and gnumeric). Distributions can, and do, change these defaults and users can install a whole range of options. In Ubuntu we include Firefox instead of Epiphany, OpenOffice instead of Gnome Office, etc. I see no problems with that. Currently we have Gnopernicus installed by default and Orca as an option. For our next release we will likely change that so that Orca becomes the default and Gnopernicus the option. We still package and support a wide range of options beyond that though and we are actively working on several new accessibility tools from scratch. > Frankly, it's an insult. This kind of grudging support for accessibility needs to be stopped right now. In fact, it's a stretch to even call it "support." > This may be true in some areas of the open source world still, that accessibility is an afterthought, but we are working to improve that. An important factor in becoming better at this is learning to collaborate better and work together on common tools. Choice is good in principle, but the price of fragmented effort can be high. Finally, I think you are complaining the wrong audience here (various accessibility lists). All these people are already on your side. If you want to make this complaint it should go to the main developer lists of gnome, redhat, ubuntu, etc. Though that said, I do actually think that gnome is right in their policy on this. Henrik Omma Ubuntu Accessibility Coordinator From aedil@alchar.org Sat Jun 10 15:36:39 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5629C3B0494 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:36:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23108-04 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:36:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from alchar.org (dsl081-071-219.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.71.219]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A24953B03AC for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:36:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 10120 invoked by uid 100); 10 Jun 2006 19:37:54 -0000 Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:37:54 -0400 From: Kris Van Hees To: Henrik Nilsen Omma Message-ID: <20060610193754.GC21840@alchar.org> Mail-Followup-To: Kris Van Hees , Henrik Nilsen Omma , Orca screen reader developers , blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, speakup@braille.uwo.ca, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.395 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, SPF_NEUTRAL=1.069] X-Spam-Score: -1.395 X-Spam-Level: Cc: speakup@braille.uwo.ca, Orca screen reader developers , blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:36:39 -0000 On Sat, Jun 10, 2006 at 08:01:00PM +0100, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > Janina Sajka wrote: > >Mike Pedersen writes: > >>We have been informed, however, that there can be only one screen > >>reader/magnifier in the GNOME desktop. > >> > >That's a rather outrageous attitude. Who made that decision? > > > >Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media > >player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application? > > > I think you may have misinterpreted this slightly. The idea is that > there will only be one official screen reader in Gnome, as there indeed > is only one email client (Evolution), one browser (Epiphany), one office > suite (gnome office, using abiword and gnumeric). Distributions can, and > do, change these defaults and users can install a whole range of options. Not to start a holy war, but a reasonable part of the audience that believes in an alternative to Microsoft Windows also supports the notion of *not* including various other applications and suites. While Gnome is surely not an OS, it seems rather weird (and potentially dangerous) to me to end up with a situation where Gnome has an official screen reader, an official mail client, etc... By including specific official applications and suites in Gnome, you're bound to get into a situation where a large group of people will end up simply sticking to the officially included applications and suites, either by choice (easier) or as mandated by an IT department that takes the "we only run the officially included stuff" approach (all too comon). And in the end... why not simply leave Gnome to be the desktop environment it is, and let users choose what they want? Why does there need to be one official choice, and optional alternatives? I can see where the general public falls for this, and how from a "let's pretend the user is stupid" perspective this can be considered "user-friendly", but I would hope that we (as a special interest group) can express a genuine concern about this type of policy to the powers that be (and that make this type of policy). Kris From janina@opera.rednote.net Sat Jun 10 19:51:16 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B5FA3B018D; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:51:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32643-07; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:51:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (opera.rednote.net [70.84.142.212]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D56C3B00BE; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:51:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5ANnceh017788; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:49:38 GMT Received: (from janina@localhost) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k5ANnb4C017787; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:49:37 -0400 Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:49:37 -0400 From: Janina Sajka To: Henrik Nilsen Omma Message-ID: <20060610234937.GO2259@rednote.net> References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Operating-System: Linux opera.rednote.net 2.6.16-1.2122_FC5spksmp Organization: Capital Accessibility LLC (http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com) X-PGP-Key: http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com/JaninaSajka_gpg_key.html X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.562 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.037, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.562 X-Spam-Level: Cc: speakup@braille.uwo.ca, Orca screen reader developers , blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:51:16 -0000 Henrik Nilsen Omma writes: > Janina Sajka wrote: > >Mike Pedersen writes: > > > >>We have been informed, however, that there can be only one screen > >>reader/magnifier in the GNOME desktop. > >> > >> > >That's a rather outrageous attitude. Who made that decision? > > > >Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media > >player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application? > > > I think you may have misinterpreted this slightly. The idea is that > there will only be one official screen reader in Gnome, as there indeed > is only one email client (Evolution), one browser (Epiphany), one office > suite (gnome office, using abiword and gnumeric). Distributions can, and > do, change these defaults and users can install a whole range of options. > So, it seems I have misunderstood the policy quite thoroughly. I apologize for that. I am not sure the policy of having only one of a kind makes much sense to me, but I certainly do not find discrimination in such a policy when it's even handidly applied across the board. > In Ubuntu we include Firefox instead of Epiphany, OpenOffice instead of > Gnome Office, etc. I see no problems with that. Currently we have > Gnopernicus installed by default and Orca as an option. For our next > release we will likely change that so that Orca becomes the default and > Gnopernicus the option. We still package and support a wide range of > options beyond that though and we are actively working on several new > accessibility tools from scratch. Yes, those are accessibility friendly substitutions, and Ubuntu is to be commended for this. > >Frankly, it's an insult. This kind of grudging support for accessibility > >needs to be stopped right now. In fact, it's a stretch to even call it > >"support." > > > This may be true in some areas of the open source world still, that > accessibility is an afterthought, but we are working to improve that. An > important factor in becoming better at this is learning to collaborate > better and work together on common tools. Choice is good in principle, > but the price of fragmented effort can be high. Indeed so, especially in edge cases such as AT apps On the other hand AT on the Linux GUI is still fairly new, and what approaches will prove truly successful for the user is still to be seen.. We certainly do need to work on cooperation and collaboration, but I suspect we're stronger if we support the option for alternative approaches. I suspect, for instance, that accessibility on the desktop is enhanced because KDE and Gnome were able to agree on the same messaging SPI, while continuing to remain autonomous and distinctive desktops. > > Finally, I think you are complaining the wrong audience here (various > accessibility lists). All these people are already on your side. If you > want to make this complaint it should go to the main developer lists of > gnome, redhat, ubuntu, etc. Though that said, I do actually think that > gnome is right in their policy on this. While I apologize for seeing injustice where there clearly isn't any, I still remain unconvinced that an "only one of a kind" policy is the smarter policy. Different issue, of course. Janina > > Henrik Omma > Ubuntu Accessibility Coordinator > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list -- Janina Sajka Phone: +1.240.715.1272 Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC http://CapitalAccessibility.Com Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada--Go to http://ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more. Chair, Accessibility Workgroup Free Standards Group (FSG) janina@freestandards.org http://a11y.org From janina@opera.rednote.net Sat Jun 10 19:59:29 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C29053B02E3; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:59:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00741-06; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:59:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (opera.rednote.net [70.84.142.212]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED43C3B01AE; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:59:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5ANwDVd017891; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:58:13 GMT Received: (from janina@localhost) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k5ANwAA3017890; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:58:10 -0400 Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:58:10 -0400 From: Janina Sajka To: Kris Van Hees , Henrik Nilsen Omma , Orca screen reader developers , blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, speakup@braille.uwo.ca, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060610235810.GP2259@rednote.net> References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> <20060610193754.GC21840@alchar.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060610193754.GC21840@alchar.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Operating-System: Linux opera.rednote.net 2.6.16-1.2122_FC5spksmp Organization: Capital Accessibility LLC (http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com) X-PGP-Key: http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com/JaninaSajka_gpg_key.html X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.565 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.034, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.565 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:59:30 -0000 Thanks, Kris, for getting at the real issue that I missed. I must indeed agree with you. I, for one, am glad that there are dozens of sopas at the store, and several airlines to fly across the Atlantic. I understand it's harder to support choice in distributions and desktops, but I believe it's essential so to do, if for no other reason than it makes us think harder to get the important things right. It's not important that we all use the same email client, for instance, but it is important that we can read email from anyone. I believe the latter is at risk when we allow ourselves the ease of the former. Janina Kris Van Hees writes: > On Sat, Jun 10, 2006 at 08:01:00PM +0100, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > > Janina Sajka wrote: > > >Mike Pedersen writes: > > >>We have been informed, however, that there can be only one screen > > >>reader/magnifier in the GNOME desktop. > > >> > > >That's a rather outrageous attitude. Who made that decision? > > > > > >Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media > > >player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application? > > > > > I think you may have misinterpreted this slightly. The idea is that > > there will only be one official screen reader in Gnome, as there indeed > > is only one email client (Evolution), one browser (Epiphany), one office > > suite (gnome office, using abiword and gnumeric). Distributions can, and > > do, change these defaults and users can install a whole range of options. > > Not to start a holy war, but a reasonable part of the audience that believes in > an alternative to Microsoft Windows also supports the notion of *not* including > various other applications and suites. While Gnome is surely not an OS, it > seems rather weird (and potentially dangerous) to me to end up with a situation > where Gnome has an official screen reader, an official mail client, etc... > By including specific official applications and suites in Gnome, you're bound > to get into a situation where a large group of people will end up simply > sticking to the officially included applications and suites, either by choice > (easier) or as mandated by an IT department that takes the "we only run the > officially included stuff" approach (all too comon). > > And in the end... why not simply leave Gnome to be the desktop environment it > is, and let users choose what they want? Why does there need to be one > official choice, and optional alternatives? I can see where the general public > falls for this, and how from a "let's pretend the user is stupid" perspective > this can be considered "user-friendly", but I would hope that we (as a special > interest group) can express a genuine concern about this type of policy to > the powers that be (and that make this type of policy). > > Kris > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list -- Janina Sajka Phone: +1.240.715.1272 Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC http://CapitalAccessibility.Com Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada--Go to http://ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more. Chair, Accessibility Workgroup Free Standards Group (FSG) janina@freestandards.org http://a11y.org From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Sat Jun 10 20:41:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 176D53B0333; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 20:41:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01799-06; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 20:41:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E8193B000B; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 20:41:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5B0eQlh002102; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:40:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0O00301724OH00@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM); Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.23.100] by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0O00MYQ77DT140@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:40:23 -0700 From: Peter Korn In-reply-to: <20060610193754.GC21840@alchar.org> Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: Kris Van Hees , Henrik Nilsen Omma , Orca screen reader developers , blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, speakup@braille.uwo.ca, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-id: <448B6677.2010400@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> <20060610193754.GC21840@alchar.org> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.532 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.066, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.532 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:41:51 -0000 Greetings, To toss my $0.02 into this discussion... It has proven very useful to the GNOME accessibility project - and to advancing the support for assistive technologies and the implementation of ATK and AT-SPI - to have a screen reader, screen magnifier, and on-screen keyboard included as a formal part of GNOME. By 'blessing' AT in these categories, it has brought far greater awareness of AT to GNOME developers & UNIX distributions, and has led to a lot of compatibility testing, bug finding, and bug fixing. Given that it is general GNOME policy to make one product in any given category the 'default' product that a formal part of the GNOME desktop, I am personally delighted that they have chosen to create such a category for screen reader, screen magnifier, on-screen keyboard, and text-input alternative (Dasher). Regards, Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. > On Sat, Jun 10, 2006 at 08:01:00PM +0100, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > >> Janina Sajka wrote: >> >>> Mike Pedersen writes: >>> >>>> We have been informed, however, that there can be only one screen >>>> reader/magnifier in the GNOME desktop. >>>> >>>> >>> That's a rather outrageous attitude. Who made that decision? >>> >>> Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media >>> player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application? >>> >>> >> I think you may have misinterpreted this slightly. The idea is that >> there will only be one official screen reader in Gnome, as there indeed >> is only one email client (Evolution), one browser (Epiphany), one office >> suite (gnome office, using abiword and gnumeric). Distributions can, and >> do, change these defaults and users can install a whole range of options. >> > > Not to start a holy war, but a reasonable part of the audience that believes in > an alternative to Microsoft Windows also supports the notion of *not* including > various other applications and suites. While Gnome is surely not an OS, it > seems rather weird (and potentially dangerous) to me to end up with a situation > where Gnome has an official screen reader, an official mail client, etc... > By including specific official applications and suites in Gnome, you're bound > to get into a situation where a large group of people will end up simply > sticking to the officially included applications and suites, either by choice > (easier) or as mandated by an IT department that takes the "we only run the > officially included stuff" approach (all too comon). > > And in the end... why not simply leave Gnome to be the desktop environment it > is, and let users choose what they want? Why does there need to be one > official choice, and optional alternatives? I can see where the general public > falls for this, and how from a "let's pretend the user is stupid" perspective > this can be considered "user-friendly", but I would hope that we (as a special > interest group) can express a genuine concern about this type of policy to > the powers that be (and that make this type of policy). > > Kris > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > From j.schmude@gmail.com Sat Jun 10 22:51:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23ED53B05B3 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 22:51:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06037-02 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 22:51:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.202]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE23C3B0588 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 22:51:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id x7so970474nzc for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:50:26 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:content-type:to:from:subject:date:x-mailer; b=FkqiqwKYV6jqK72JUrYg6R4e7hAicwZR5NrV2Ya/FTkAp+FAActyboT3lmnBTCnhOO8zyQRZQqb0J0UP6tn8AxcJBBUNVRInZ90Hy9BvWFsvwF37FNONyt7PwEuLcs3TOK+3uGZ/mAdzwmuvbgn8mb1ql7peqrgAsgKNgjZAhjs= Received: by 10.36.215.18 with SMTP id n18mr6512883nzg; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.0.11? ( [70.162.106.212]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 37sm786308nzf.2006.06.10.19.21.46; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <4E366E31-2C86-4DB3-AEC7-99660ACF8047@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org (Gnome accessibility ) From: Jacob Schmude Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:27:49 -0700 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Orca and 3rd party Emacspeak Servers X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 02:51:03 -0000 Hi everyone I thought I'd try the emacspeak server support in Orca to see if it would use my doubletalk LT synth. However, Orca only lists the speech servers that come standard with Emacspeak. The emacspeak-ss package add support for many more synthesizers than simply dectalk varients. Is there a way to get these listed in Orca as well or, failing that, have perhaps an "other" option in the list that would allow me to enter a different speech server? I'm going to play with it a bit, maybe I can edit the settings file to make it run anyway. Thanks From dmehler26@woh.rr.com Sun Jun 11 00:12:17 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DC9E3B03FB for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:12:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09104-04 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:12:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ms-smtp-03.ohiordc.rr.com (ms-smtp-03.ohiordc.rr.com [65.24.5.137]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B9C33B00A6 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:12:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from satellite (cpe-65-31-41-159.woh.res.rr.com [65.31.41.159]) by ms-smtp-03.ohiordc.rr.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id k5B3QTul013111 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:26:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <00af01c68d05$29efeba0$0200a8c0@satellite> From: "Dave" To: Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:14:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.069 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=1.069, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001, TW_CV=0.077, TW_DL=0.077, TW_GD=0.077, TW_GT=0.077, TW_LG=0.077, TW_VF=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -1.069 X-Spam-Level: Subject: gnopernicus, java, and access bridge on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Dave List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 04:12:17 -0000 Hello, My name is Dave. I'm a sysadmin with six years Unix experience, FreeBSD and Linux mostly. So far my experience has been with setting up server platforms for FreeBSD for the purposes of this message and not workstations requiring x. A while back when i did it using XFree86 i was unsuccessful. Now i want to replace some Linux fc4 workstations with FreeBSD. I've got xorg configured, gnome starting, and gnopernicus up and running. I'm almost certain i don't have all the accessibility hooks turned on, but i will undoubtedly learn about those as i investigate apps. I want to do as many installs using the FreeBSD ports infrastructure as i feel this would make system upkeep much easier. I'd like access to java apps, using the access bridge. I've installed the jdk 1.5, but when i atempt to compile access bridge i am getting "Error illegal option x" The full output of the compilation atempt is below. If anyone has this working i'd appreciate hearing from you. I'd eventually like to have access to openoffice2 using java as well. Thanks. Dave. compilation: # ./configure checking for a BSD-compatible install... /usr/bin/install -c checking whether build environment is sane... yes checking whether make sets $(MAKE)... yes checking for working aclocal-1.4... missing checking for working autoconf... missing checking for working automake-1.4... missing checking for working autoheader... missing checking for working makeinfo... found checking for java... java checking JDK version... 1.5.0 checking for javac... javac JRE_HOME appears to be /usr/local/bin/jre checking for idlj... idlj checking for jar... jar checking for pkg-config... /usr/local/bin/pkg-config checking for bonobo-activation-2.0 libspi-1.0 >= 1.7.0... yes checking JAVA_BRIDGE_CFLAGS... -DORBIT2=1 -D_REENTRANT -DXTHREADS -DXUSE_MTSAFE_API -I/usr/local/include/bonobo-activation-2.0 -I/usr/local/include/glib-2.0 -I/usr/local/lib/glib-2.0/include -I/usr/local/include/orbit-2.0 -I/usr/local/include/libbonobo-2.0 -I/usr/local/include/atk-1.0 -I/usr/local/include/cairo -I/usr/X11R6/include/at-spi-1.0 -I/usr/X11R6/include/gtk-2.0 -I/usr/X11R6/lib/gtk-2.0/include -I/usr/X11R6/include/pango-1.0 -I/usr/X11R6/include -I/usr/local/include/freetype2 -I/usr/local/include checking JAVA_BRIDGE_LIBS... -pthread -Wl,--rpath -Wl,/usr/local/lib -L/usr/local/lib -L/usr/X11R6/lib -lspi -lbonobo-2 -lgtk-x11-2.0 -lbonobo-activation -lORBit-2 -lgthread-2.0 -lgdk-x11-2.0 -lXrandr -lXi -lXinerama -latk-1.0 -lgdk_pixbuf-2.0 -lpangocairo-1.0 -lXcursor -lXfixes -lcairo -lpangoft2-1.0 -lfontconfig -lfreetype -lz -lpango-1.0 -lm -lXrender -lX11 -lXext -lgobject-2.0 -lgmodule-2.0 -lglib-2.0 -liconv configure: creating ./config.status config.status: creating Makefile config.status: creating idlgen/Makefile config.status: creating idlgen/org/Makefile config.status: creating idlgen/org/GNOME/Makefile config.status: creating idlgen/org/GNOME/Accessibility/Makefile config.status: creating idlgen/org/GNOME/Bonobo/Makefile config.status: creating util/Makefile config.status: creating util/org/Makefile config.status: creating util/org/GNOME/Makefile config.status: creating util/org/GNOME/Accessibility/Makefile config.status: creating impl/Makefile config.status: creating impl/org/Makefile config.status: creating impl/org/GNOME/Makefile config.status: creating impl/org/GNOME/Accessibility/Makefile config.status: creating impl/org/GNOME/Bonobo/Makefile config.status: creating bridge/Makefile config.status: creating bridge/org/Makefile config.status: creating bridge/org/GNOME/Makefile config.status: creating bridge/org/GNOME/Accessibility/Makefile config.status: creating at-client/Makefile config.status: creating at-client/org/Makefile config.status: creating at-client/org/GNOME/Makefile config.status: creating at-client/org/GNOME/Accessibility/Makefile config.status: creating registry/Makefile config.status: creating registry/org/Makefile config.status: creating registry/org/GNOME/Makefile config.status: creating registry/org/GNOME/Accessibility/Makefile config.status: creating test/Makefile [root@titan /usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0]# gmake Making all in idlgen gmake[1]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen' Making all in org gmake[2]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org' Making all in GNOME gmake[3]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME' Making all in Accessibility gmake[4]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Accessibility' gmake[4]: Nothing to be done for `all'. gmake[4]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Accessibility' Making all in Bonobo gmake[4]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Bonobo' gmake[4]: Nothing to be done for `all'. gmake[4]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Bonobo' gmake[4]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME' gmake[4]: Nothing to be done for `all-am'. gmake[4]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME' gmake[3]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME' gmake[3]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org' gmake[3]: Nothing to be done for `all-am'. gmake[3]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org' gmake[2]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org' gmake[2]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen' idlj \ -pkgPrefix Bonobo org.GNOME \ -pkgPrefix Accessibility org.GNOME \ -emitAll -i /usr/local/share/idl/bonobo-activation-2.0 -i /usr/X11R6/share/gnome/idl/at-spi-1.0 -i /usr/local/share/idl/bonobo-2.0 \ -fallTie /usr/X11R6/share/gnome/idl/at-spi-1.0/Accessibility.idl com.sun.tools.corba.se.idl.InvalidArgument: Invalid rgument: -XX:+UseMembar. Compiler Usage: java com.sun.tools.corba.se.idl.toJavaPortable.Compile [options] where is the name of a file containing IDL definitions, and [options] is any combination of the options listed below. The options are optional and may appear in any order; is required and must appear last. Options: -d This is equivalent to the following line in an IDL file: #define -emitAll Emit all types, including those found in #included files. -f Define what bindings to emit. is one of client, server, all, serverTIE, allTIE. serverTIE and allTIE cause delegate model skeletons to be emitted. If this flag is not used, -fclient is assumed. -i By default, the current directory is scanned for included files. This option adds another directory. -keep If a file to be generated already exists, do not overwrite it. By default it is overwritten. -noWarn Suppress warnings. -oldImplBase Generate skeletons compatible with old (pre-1.4) JDK ORBs. -pkgPrefix When the type or module name is encountered at file scope, begin the Java package name for all files generated for with . -pkgTranslate When the type or module name in encountered, replace it with in the generated java package. Note that pkgPrefix changes are made first. must match the full package name exactly. Also, must not be org, org.omg, or any subpackage of org.omg. -skeletonName Name the skeleton according to the pattern. The defaults are: %POA for the POA base class (-fserver or -fall) _%ImplBase for the oldImplBase base class (-oldImplBase and (-fserver or -fall)). -td use for the output directory instead of the current directory. -tieName Name the tie according to the pattern. The defaults are: %POATie for the POA tie (-fserverTie or -fallTie) %_Tie for the oldImplBase tie (-oldImplBase and (-fserverTie or -fallTie)). -v, -verbose Verbose mode. -version Display the version number and quit. gmake[3]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Bonobo' gmake[3]: Nothing to be done for `all'. gmake[3]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Bonobo' gmake[3]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Accessibility' gmake[3]: Nothing to be done for `all'. gmake[3]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Accessibility' touch ../jar-stamp touch ../jar-stamp jar cf ../gnome-java-bridge.jar org/GNOME/Bonobo/*.class org/GNOME/Accessibility/*.class Illegal option: X Usage: jar {ctxu}[vfm0Mi] [jar-file] [manifest-file] [-C dir] files ... Options: -c create new archive -t list table of contents for archive -x extract named (or all) files from archive -u update existing archive -v generate verbose output on standard output -f specify archive file name -m include manifest information from specified manifest file -0 store only; use no ZIP compression -M do not create a manifest file for the entries -i generate index information for the specified jar files -C change to the specified directory and include the following file If any file is a directory then it is processed recursively. The manifest file name and the archive file name needs to be specified in the same order the 'm' and 'f' flags are specified. Example 1: to archive two class files into an archive called classes.jar: jar cvf classes.jar Foo.class Bar.class Example 2: use an existing manifest file 'mymanifest' and archive all the files in the foo/ directory into 'classes.jar': jar cvfm classes.jar mymanifest -C foo/ . gmake[2]: *** [../gnome-java-bridge.jar] Error 1 gmake[2]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen' gmake[1]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1 gmake[1]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen' gmake: *** [all-recursive] Error 1 From henrik@ubuntu.com Sun Jun 11 07:38:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FC053B0641; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 07:38:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07029-08; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 07:38:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17EBD3B0168; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 07:38:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.0.10] (henrik.gotadsl.co.uk [82.133.122.11]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7428339335; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 12:37:30 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <448C007D.9030400@ubuntu.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 12:37:33 +0100 From: Henrik Nilsen Omma User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060522) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Orca screen reader developers References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> <20060610193754.GC21840@alchar.org> <448B6677.2010400@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <448B6677.2010400@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.593 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.006, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.593 X-Spam-Level: Cc: blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, speakup@braille.uwo.ca, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 11:38:41 -0000 Peter Korn wrote: > It has proven very useful to the GNOME accessibility project - and to > advancing the support for assistive technologies and the > implementation of ATK and AT-SPI - to have a screen reader, screen > magnifier, and on-screen keyboard included as a formal part of GNOME. > By 'blessing' AT in these categories, it has brought far greater > awareness of AT to GNOME developers & UNIX distributions, and has led > to a lot of compatibility testing, bug finding, and bug fixing. We have seen the effects of this esp. in the last release cycle when we have now managed to get a range of accessibility tools into the default install and running from the Live CD. Other developers, such as those specialising in the Live CD, the installer and the Gnome desktop have taken an interest and are helping us solve the problems. For our next development cycle we now have several specifications on the main development track (see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Specs) I think custom distributions like Oralux can focus on adding as much assistive technology as possible to a single CD and let the user explore it all. For a main stream distro though, I think we need to make choices about what we consider to be most suitable at this time, and leave the rest as options. Picking favourites is actually an important part of what we do because it allows us to focus our efforts better on providing support and fixes on those packages. - Henrik From William.Walker@Sun.COM Sun Jun 11 19:53:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C98A93B00BC; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 19:53:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09467-02; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 19:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 656553B00B7; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 19:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fe-amer-06.sun.com ([192.18.108.180]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5BNqQ6B020577; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:52:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0P00M01Y1KY900@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from William.Walker@Sun.COM); Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:52:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.1.105] ([68.116.197.173]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0P0097BZN5LTZ1@mail-amer.sun.com>; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:52:26 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 19:52:16 -0400 From: Willie Walker Sender: William.Walker@Sun.COM To: orca-list@gnome.org, gnome-announce-list@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-id: <1150069937.5071.4.camel@localhost> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.587 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.011, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.587 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Announcing Orca 0.2.5 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 23:53:34 -0000 ================ * What is Orca ? ================ Orca is a scriptable screen reader for the GNOME desktop for people with visual impairments. ================== * What's changed ? ================== We've done a lot of work on Orca since the last release in both the new functionality and quality/stability departments. We thank all of our users that are providing feedback on gnome-list@gnome.org (see http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list) as well as http://bugzilla.gnome.org. We value all of your feedback and help. We also appreciate contributions from community members, including Al Puzzuoli who is doing a great job helping with the Orca Wiki at http://live.gnome.org/Orca and Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez who has been testing and providing patches. Thank you all! ================== Orca 0.2.5 Changes ================== * Re-map keyboard bindings and add additional keyboard bindings. See http://live.gnome.org/Orca/KeyboardCommands for the list. * Improvements to StarOffice support to provide better access to text documents and spreadsheets. Also get rid of spurious "0.00" text that was showing up in braille for StarOffice buttons. * Addition of announcing text selection as it is selected and unselected. * Generalize the "read table cell row" functionality. If you press Insert+F11, it will toggle the feature to read the entire row of a table or just the selected table cell when you move from row to row. * Improved support for SayAll of text objects (SayAll for flat review is still on the to do list). * Addition of self-voicing module to tell Orca to be quiet when a self-voicing application is present. * Addition of ability to turn Orca into a speech server that can accessed via simple HTTP commands (default port is 20433, but this is customizable via orca.settings.speechServerPort). This will allow self-voicing applications to use Orca for their speech, thus letting them get the user's speech settings preferences. * Addition of orca.settings.enableBrailleGrouping (default=False). NOTE: this represents a change in the UI for Orca - the behavior to date has been to always group menu items on the braille display. The system responsiveness was bad for large menus, however, so we decided to make this an optional feature turned off by default. * Addition of utility to report information on the currently active script. This is primarily for helping script writers do debugging and is accessed by pressing Insert+F3. * Addition of orca.settings.cacheAccessibles (default=True) as a means to turn the local caching of accessible objects on or off. This is primarily an Orca developer debugging feature. * Fix for bug 344218 - gnome-terminal would not be presented properly if it was started after Orca. * Fix for bug 343666: pressing buttons on braille displays could cause a hang. * Partial fix for bug 342022 - provide some defensive mechanisms to help prevent some hangs. * Fix for bug 343133 - do not hang when doing a flat-review of a man page in gnome-terminal. * Fix for bug #343013 - the command line option strings should not be translatable. * Partial fix for bug 319652 - become a better Python thread citizen to help reduce hangs. * Fix for bug 342303 - stop speech when the user presses the mouse button. * Fix for bug 342122 - use all labels for an objecty when presenting an object. * Fix for bug 342133 - do not read all labels in gnome-window-properties application when it appears. * Fix for bug 341415 - when moving between workspaces with metacity, eliminate redundant output and alsomake sure workspace names are announced. * Refactor of various modules to move script writing utilities into util.py. * More fleshing out of the test plan. ====================== * Where can I get it ? ====================== Source code: http://ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/sources/orca/0.2/orca-0.2.5.tar.gz Enjoy. Will, Mike, Rich, Lynn, and the Orca community From rd@baum.ro Mon Jun 12 04:21:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B89BD3B00EC for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 04:21:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26018-07 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 04:21:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from main.baum.ro (dnt-gw-baum.dnttm.ro [83.103.190.186]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E47273B00D4 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 04:21:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.0.104] ([82.77.32.51]) by main.baum.ro (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5C7d8Yc010617; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 10:39:08 +0300 From: remus draica To: Dave In-Reply-To: <00af01c68d05$29efeba0$0200a8c0@satellite> References: <00af01c68d05$29efeba0$0200a8c0@satellite> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:20:40 -0400 Message-Id: <1150125641.4877.19.camel@ubuntu> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.573 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.854, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_FUTURE_06_12=1.668, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, TW_DL=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -1.573 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: gnopernicus, java, and access bridge on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 08:21:40 -0000 Hi, > checking for java... java > checking JDK version... 1.5.0 > checking for javac... javac > JRE_HOME appears to be /usr/local/bin/jre > checking for idlj... idlj > checking for jar... jar Because you have installed a new java version, is possible to have 2 versions. so, check if all files above are from same distribution, or run ./configure --with-java-home=/path to jdk Regards, Remus From tward1978@earthlink.net Mon Jun 12 15:30:53 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 912973B0100 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:30:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27449-05 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:30:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-gadwall.atl.sa.earthlink.net (pop-gadwall.atl.sa.earthlink.net [207.69.195.61]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB3063B0010 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:30:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dialup-4.224.186.21.dial1.cincinnati1.level3.net ([4.224.186.21]) by pop-gadwall.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1Fps6b-0002fm-00; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:29:45 -0400 Message-ID: <448DC0AE.3030302@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:29:50 -0400 From: Thomas Ward User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave References: <00af01c68d05$29efeba0$0200a8c0@satellite> In-Reply-To: <00af01c68d05$29efeba0$0200a8c0@satellite> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.943 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.456] X-Spam-Score: -0.943 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: gnopernicus, java, and access bridge on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 19:30:53 -0000 Hello, Dave. Gnome has three different areas of access which can be turned on or off depending on the level of accessibility you are aiming for. The first is controled by gconf. When you answer yes to accessibility when gnopernicus first loads the following key is set to true gconftool-2 --set "/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility" --type boolean "True") I haven't tested this lately, but if you type that key in to a standard bash shell prompt it would equal answering yes to the do you want access turned on when gnopernicus starts. The second flag which you can set turns the atk-bridge on for apps such as gaim which won't work without it. To turn the atk-bridge on add this line to the end of your home .bash_profile. export GTK_MODULES=gail:atk-bridge Assuming you have java access bridge installed, which I know you don't at this time, you can create a .orbitrc file in your home directory with gedit, nano, or another favorite text editor and add the following line. ORBIIOPIPv4=1 I'm not sure if you still need this as it has been a while since I did an update on everything, but to work with open office you needed to set SAL_ACCESSIBILITY_ENABLED=1 to get full access to OpenOffice.org. Hope this helps. From lists@digitaldarragh.com Tue Jun 13 04:23:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03BC73B000C for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 04:23:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15398-07 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 04:23:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.webhost.ie (mail.webhost.ie [83.138.8.74]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B51923B000A for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 04:23:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by mail.webhost.ie (Merak 8.3.8) with SMTP id ROJ35911 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:22:11 +0100 Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:22:11 +0100 From: Darragh To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <58fe54a1f8137f5466e7e91769d78df1@digitaldarragh.com> X-Mailer: IceWarp Web Mail 5.6.1 X-Originating-IP: 82.1.217.193 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.62 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.880, BAYES_20=-0.74] X-Spam-Score: -1.62 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Orca or Gnopernicus on a distro like Slax? X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 08:23:12 -0000 Hello all, I know slax uses KDE as its default window manager but do any of you know of another distro that works from a usb drive with the latest version of Gnome that will allow me to install Orca or Gnopernicus? Thanks Darragh Ó Héiligh Web development, O/S and Application technical support. Website: http://www.digitaldarragh.com From enrico@enricozini.org Tue Jun 13 17:50:15 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 104BB3B03CF for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:50:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07729-05 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:50:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agnus.ngi.it (agnus.ngi.it [88.149.128.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 917753B00C4 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:50:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eddie.casa (81-174-12-206.f5.ngi.it [81.174.12.206]) by agnus.ngi.it (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5DLllUw007997; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:47:48 +0200 Received: from eddie.casa (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eddie.casa (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A91230011E; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:47:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from marvin.casa (marvin.casa [192.168.1.2]) by eddie.casa (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F53430011D; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:47:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from enrico by marvin.casa with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1FqGjk-0002Ze-00; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:47:48 +0200 Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:47:47 +0200 From: Enrico Zini To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060613214747.GA4897@marvin.casa> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com References: <20060610092255.GA9803@marvin.casa> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060610092255.GA9803@marvin.casa> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060403 Sender: Enrico Zini X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.446 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.446 X-Spam-Level: Cc: ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Re: Fixing brittle speech support on Dapper X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 21:50:15 -0000 --ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline On Sat, Jun 10, 2006 at 11:22:55AM +0200, Enrico Zini wrote: > - speech doesn't work anymore. test-speech exits with: > Exception Unknown CORBA exception id: 'IDL:omg.org/CORBA/COMM_FAILURE:1.0' getting voice list. I've been waiting but sadly noone answered so far. I tried reinstalling from scratch in another computer, and I can trivially reproduce the speech server lockup there as well: 1) Fresh Ubuntu Dapper, apt-get install festlex-ifd festvox-italp16k festvox-itapc16k (from universe) 2) go to gnopernicus Preferences/Speech/Voices/Modify absolute values 3) choose "Festival GNOME Speech Driver" as a driver, "V2 lp_diphone" as the voice. Apply setting for all voices. 4) close the window. The voice stops. test-speech hangs after selecting the festival server. Please help me to find some clues on fixing this: it took us years to get GPL Festival voices for Italian, and now we could easily turn them into an accessible localised desktop, if it weren't for this. Ciao, Enrico -- GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini --ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEjzKD9LSwzHl+v6sRAuVyAJwI3dqpDwnrS8qq/ABGqUJdsmgJ5gCff+/n q3ZtW+3tVh14q1n0aG0Yv4U= =6lsv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q-- From ermengol@gmail.com Tue Jun 13 19:28:37 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 962923B021A for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 19:28:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09625-09 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 19:28:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.187]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D88D83B01C5 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 19:28:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id y38so1070382nfb for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 16:27:04 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=XgBruegOpLZfMFjVd1bPz7yhVNs2CnoRcO+dGHnDzPiAvdXBFd2k/1e+WEfiVvy0xfFcU9Hv2NP59uG70HF+eibs6v8uIl7c00uqcwS8i1AdUwQxnYqqmuVQR2e9xmGoF7pTOYlpYkfeD0r45ZHY9rsNBDc0CMZCXDZEvXBn9Hg= Received: by 10.49.68.20 with SMTP id v20mr7621nfk; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 16:27:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.48.208.11 with HTTP; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 16:27:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 01:27:04 +0200 From: "Ermengol Bota" To: "Peter Korn" In-Reply-To: <448911DC.4090607@sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <448911DC.4090607@sun.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: gnopernicus-magnifier. Full screen magnifier with dummy driver X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:28:37 -0000 2006/6/9, Peter Korn : > This is a problem with our current magnification architecture. We are > looking forward to magnifiers that are based on several X extensions - > most especially the COMPOSITE extension - which will allow us to avoid > this bit of hackery. Unfortunately we aren't quite ready with those yet. Thanks for all the answers. I know (i just read its web) that Composite does (will do?) more things, not only full screen magnifier, but at least on suse based distro's there is a modifier for xorg that enables to add "virtual resolution". So, you can define the screen resolution (1024x768) and then the virtual resolution 1600x1200 (the resolution for the desktop). This way it works like full screen magnifier. I've done it with SaX2 application (YaST2), but it just adds a new entry " Virtual 1600 1200" on each subsection "Display" of section "Screen" The differences i've seen so far are mainly all the functionalities that gnome-mag can do: change cursor, change the way screen move.... But may be it's an easier way to magnify the screen :-) Thanks for all -- * Ermengol * /*********************************************** * Els ordinadors no resolen problemes, * * simplement executen solucions. * ************************************************/ From themuso@themuso.com Wed Jun 14 09:44:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 189183B00FA; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 09:44:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23247-06; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 09:44:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vscan03.westnet.com.au (vscan03.westnet.com.au [203.10.1.142]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE6883B0133; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 09:44:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70444B60BFC; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 21:43:27 +0800 (WST) Received: from vscan03.westnet.com.au ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (vscan03.westnet.com.au [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04093-05; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 21:43:27 +0800 (WST) Received: from themuso.com (dsl-202-173-132-131.nsw.westnet.com.au [202.173.132.131]) by vscan03.westnet.com.au (Postfix) with SMTP id E0F6AB60BCC; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 21:43:26 +0800 (WST) Received: (nullmailer pid 26322 invoked by uid 1000); Wed, 14 Jun 2006 13:43:40 -0000 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 23:43:40 +1000 To: Gnome Accessibility List , Orca screen reader developers , Ubuntu Accessibility Mailing List Subject: Orca 0.2.5, and LSR 0.2.1 packages available. Message-ID: <20060614134340.GA26307@themuso.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 From: Luke Yelavich X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.415 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.049, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.415 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 13:44:36 -0000 --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all I am happy to announce that packages for both LSR 0.2.1, and orca 0.2.5=20 are available for Ubuntu dapper. To use them, put the following line in=20 your /etc/apt/sources.list file deb http://www.themuso.com/ubuntu/accessibility dapper universe Then run sudo apt-get update, and sudo apt-get install gnome-orca or lsr=20 depending on which package you want. Packages exist for both i386 and powerpc. If people want amd64 packages,=20 if you could possibly give me access to an amd64 box, I would be happy=20 to get them built and make them available. You can also access the source packages, should you want to know how=20 they are built. Add the following line to /etc/apt/sources.list deb-src http://www.themuso.com/ubuntu/accessibility dapper universe Enjoy! --=20 Luke Yelavich GPG key: 0xD06320CE=20 (http://www.themuso.com/themuso-gpg-key.txt) Email & MSN: themuso@themuso.com ICQ: 18444344 Jabber: themuso@jabber.org.au --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEkBKMjVefwtBjIM4RAl8WAJ98WHZSVlRtkZDRTRHmoFHg+xOmoACdFdmN 3VXNeYNIFaN6NUgtvG0epkQ= =bj1o -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o-- From janina@opera.rednote.net Wed Jun 14 12:17:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08CF33B0156; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:17:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28336-10; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:17:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (opera.rednote.net [70.84.142.212]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2375F3B03DA; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:17:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5EGH5iU007764; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 16:17:05 GMT Received: (from janina@localhost) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k5EGH5N6007763; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:17:05 -0400 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:17:05 -0400 From: Janina Sajka To: Willie Walker Subject: Re: Announcing Orca 0.2.5 rpms Message-ID: <20060614161705.GW2259@rednote.net> References: <1150069937.5071.4.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1150069937.5071.4.camel@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Operating-System: Linux opera.rednote.net 2.6.16-1.2122_FC5spksmp Organization: Capital Accessibility LLC (http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com) X-PGP-Key: http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com/JaninaSajka_gpg_key.html X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.569 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.030, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.569 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-announce-list@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, orca-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 16:17:56 -0000 rpm packages of Orca-0.2.5 for Fedora Core 5 are now available from: ftp://SpeakupModified.Org/fedora/rednote/ The binary is under RPMS, and the source under SRPMS as usual with Fedora. Installation There is yet some unresolved dependency issue with these rpms, so they probably will need to be installed using the --nodeps option as follows: rpm -Uv --nodeps orca-0.2.5-1.i386.rpm However, I can attest the resulting installation works for me on two different systems. I have first run: orca -t from the console, as the same user I am in the gui desktop. Once on the desktop, I have issued Alt-F2 and typed: orca -t again to get things started. Seems wrong, but is working for me on two systems. Special Note: You may need to upgrade your Gnome Desktop to Fedora Development. If you find things not working with the current release and updated Gnome environment, try: yum --disablerepo='*' --enablerepo=development groupupdate 'GNOME Desktop Environment' Note the above command is issued on one line, though it's probably been broken into at least two lines in this email message. -- Janina Sajka Phone: +1.240.715.1272 Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC http://CapitalAccessibility.Com Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada--Go to http://ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more. Chair, Accessibility Workgroup Free Standards Group (FSG) janina@freestandards.org http://a11y.org From aaronleventhal@moonset.net Wed Jun 14 11:07:53 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBFD43B0156 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:07:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01652-09 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:07:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.lnh.mail.rcn.net (smtp01.lnh.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 191C33B0120 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:07:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 207-180-148-92.c3-0.arl-ubr2.sbo-arl.ma.cable.rcn.com (HELO [192.168.0.6]) ([207.180.148.92]) by smtp01.lnh.mail.rcn.net with ESMTP; 14 Jun 2006 11:08:29 -0400 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.06,132,1149480000"; d="scan'208"; a="222292815:sNHT26602784" Message-ID: <4490260C.6030606@moonset.net> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:06:52 -0400 From: Aaron Leventhal User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: mozilla.dev.accessibility Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Major rewrite will break trunk temporarily Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 03:15:26 -0400 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 15:07:54 -0000 Work is progressing on https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=340829 This is a major rewrite which will remove nsAccessibleText, nsAcessibleEditableText and nsAccessibleHyperText classes, and move that code into a new cross platform class called nsHyperTextAccessible. Please be informed that when this goes in, it will take about a month for the trunk to stabilize. This does not affect the MOZILLA_1_8 branch which is being used to develop Firefox 2. This rewrite will ultimately find its way into Firefox 3 due out in 2007. When the smoke clears, we will have something very close to this: http://www.mozilla.org/access/unix/new-atk - Aaron From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Wed Jun 21 08:16:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 609D73B0F9B for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:16:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03164-08 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:16:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.186]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80AAF3B0D58 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:16:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id h2so80984nfe for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.34.19 with SMTP id m19mr514346nfj; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.30.13 with HTTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:16:15 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" Sender: skating.tortoise@gmail.com To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, ubuntu-accessibility Subject: Slow keys dialog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Google-Sender-Auth: 7fa2bf341aa83a4f X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.361 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.239, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.361 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:16:18 -0000 I've implemented sticky keys in my onscreen keyboard. When shift is stuck down it causes the slow keys dialogue to appear. Is there a way to suppress this dialog whilst my app is running? thanks -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From bmustillrose@gmail.com Wed Jun 21 08:48:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C35B3B0FF1 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:48:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05586-09 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:48:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.189]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07BC83B0F9B for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:48:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id h2so84606nfe for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:48:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.81.12 with SMTP id i12mr543988nfl; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:48:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.48.42.2 with HTTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:48:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4285e65e0606210548m58845a3el9847e55d8d3f64b5@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:48:41 +0100 From: "ben mustill-rose" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Gnopernicus Not talking on ubuntu 6.06 desktop MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:48:52 -0000 Hi. I installed ubuntu 6.06 desktop on a laptop some time ago and with that i downloaded speech since i'm blind. The thing is, half the time when i log in, it doesn't talk. To fix this, i will have to restart the computer again and again. There doesn't seem to be any patton regarding how many times i have to restart, which is kinda annoying. When it does start talking, its to slow, is there a hotkey to change the speech? And lastly, is there anything that i should kno if i am moving from hal to gnopernicus? Any help would be great, i'm new to linux so i dunno if i gave all the right info, but if not, just ask. KR, BEN. From javier@tiflolinux.org Wed Jun 21 14:16:58 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD2ED3B009F for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:16:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27974-05 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:16:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tiflolinux.org (unknown [82.158.40.139]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 191AA3B0095 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:16:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (uid 503) by tiflolinux.org with local; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 20:29:33 +0200 id 0009B56D.4499900D.00000432 Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 20:29:33 +0200 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Fco=2E_Javier_Dorado_Mart=EDnez?=" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Gnopernicus Not talking on ubuntu 6.06 desktop] Message-ID: <20060621182933.GB30626@tiflolinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Operating-System: Linux tiflolinux.org 2.4.20-8 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.603 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.051, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_NJABL_DUL=1.946] X-Spam-Score: -0.603 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 18:16:58 -0000 ----- Forwarded message from "Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez" ----- Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 20:27:51 +0200 From: "Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez" To: ben mustill-rose Subject: Re: Gnopernicus Not talking on ubuntu 6.06 desktop User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i Hi all Ben, the problem with Gnopernicus not speaking at startup is a question of the sound system, not availability on sound system when Gnopernicus start, so speech is disabled. You can quit gnopernicus by presing alt + q and then restaring it again by pressing alt + f2 and then typing gnopernicus plus enter key. I don't know Hal, so I can give you ore detail about differents. You can change speech settings by pressing 0 + 8 in the numeric keypad, so you can hear "layer 8" and then use 4 and 6 numeric keypad to decrease/increase speech rate, 7 and 9 for volume and 1 or 3 for pitch. All the functionality of Gnopernicus screen reader is based on the numeric keypad, and based in layers. So you have 10 layers with differents functions. Press 00 for layer 0, 01 for layer 1 and so. Hope this help Regards, Javier. On Wed, Jun 21, 2006 at 01:48:41PM +0100, ben mustill-rose wrote: > Hi. > > I installed ubuntu 6.06 desktop on a laptop some time ago and with > that i downloaded speech since i'm blind. > The thing is, half the time when i log in, it doesn't talk. To fix > this, i will have to restart the computer again and again. > There doesn't seem to be any patton regarding how many times i have to > restart, which is kinda annoying. > When it does start talking, its to slow, is there a hotkey to change the speech? > And lastly, is there anything that i should kno if i am moving from > hal to gnopernicus? > Any help would be great, i'm new to linux so i dunno if i gave all the > right info, but if not, just ask. > KR, BEN. > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list -- Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez mailto:javier@tiflolinux.org ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez mailto:javier@tiflolinux.org From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Fri Jun 23 10:54:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22CE23B087B for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 10:54:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18849-01 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 10:54:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.187]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B02B03B08E6 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 10:54:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id h2so91379nfe for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 07:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.4.17 with SMTP id g17mr2514299nfi; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 07:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.30.13 with HTTP; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 07:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 15:54:14 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" Sender: skating.tortoise@gmail.com To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, ubuntu-accessibility Subject: Re: Slow keys dialog In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: X-Google-Sender-Auth: f682d046db45120e X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.446 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.154, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.446 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 14:54:18 -0000 I've implemented sticky keys in my onscreen keyboard. When shift is stuck down it causes the slow keys dialogue to appear. Is there a way to suppress this dialog whilst my app is running? thanks -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Fri Jun 23 11:07:43 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4C2D3B0321 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 11:07:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19442-07 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 11:07:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.185]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B36483B08E6 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 11:07:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id h2so93351nfe for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 08:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.4.17 with SMTP id g17mr2523841nfi; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 08:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.30.13 with HTTP; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 08:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 16:07:39 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, ubuntu-accessibility Subject: Re: Slow keys dialog In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 15:07:43 -0000 I've implemented sticky keys in my onscreen keyboard. When shift is stuck down it causes the slow keys dialogue to appear. Is there a way to suppress this dialog whilst my app is running? thanks -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From enrico@enricozini.org Sat Jun 24 07:13:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F0053B02C1; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 07:13:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09160-07; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 07:13:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from maya.ngi.it (maya.ngi.it [88.149.128.3]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45FC13B006E; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 07:13:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (81-174-12-206.f5.ngi.it [81.174.12.206]) by maya.ngi.it (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5OBDf7s005708; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 13:13:41 +0200 Received: from enrico by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1Fu64i-0006Mo-Ds; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 12:13:16 +0100 Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 12:13:16 +0100 From: Enrico Zini To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org Subject: Fixing gnome-speech Message-ID: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ibTvN161/egqYuK8" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060403 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.014, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 11:13:47 -0000 --ibTvN161/egqYuK8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, I'm trying to look more into the problems I'm having with the speech support on Dapper (see my mail with subject "Fixing brittle speech support on Dapper" from June, 10th, which strangely isn't showing up in the archives at http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-accessibility-list/200= 6-June/thread.html). I started reading through gnome-speech source code. I noticed that it runs festival as a server and talks to it. This makes us have a screen reader that talks CORBA to a server that talks TCP/IP to another server who then does the synthesis. That's too many passages in which something can go wrong. Instinctively, I'm considering rewriting the festival driver to using the C API rather than the festival server. The C API of Festival is just as simple as this: http://rafb.net/paste/results/I7trk068.html I'll look into it a bit more, writing some test code to talk to the CORBA festival driver as well as test code for the festival C/C++ API, so that I can gain familiarity with both things. Any reasons why this hasn't been done yet? In the meantime, however, before I hurt my brain too much with this, what's the overall situation? Is it worth the effort of fixing gnome-speech, or is the effort better spend on making something else work? I'm already quite frustrated of not getting any sort of answer on the list for this problem that is getting me totally stuck (and thank Luke Yelavich for mora support on IRC), and I don't know how I would cope if I spent time and effort on this just to hear as soon as I've finished that everyone's moving to speech-dispatcher or some other kind of a totally different technology. If it's not worth spending efforts on gnome-speech, please let me know what I can use to replace it, since it doesn't work for me. Ciao, Enrico --=20 GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini --ibTvN161/egqYuK8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEnR5M9LSwzHl+v6sRAvfXAJ96YsbY8wqms77UDb9GCEEkTBctXgCdHWgz kdeLwfWldHDFD8gNgZRK8LU= =0xvb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ibTvN161/egqYuK8-- From javier@tiflolinux.org Sat Jun 24 16:21:09 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E13E43B00A5 for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 16:21:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01623-02 for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 16:21:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tiflolinux.org (unknown [82.158.40.139]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FC433B006E for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 16:21:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (uid 503) by tiflolinux.org with local; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 22:32:16 +0200 id 0004BEAB.449DA150.0000373E Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 22:32:16 +0200 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Fco=2E_Javier_Dorado_Mart=EDnez?=" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Gnopernicus Not talking on ubuntu 6.06 desktop]] Message-ID: <20060624203216.GB14113@tiflolinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Operating-System: Linux tiflolinux.org 2.4.20-8 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.608 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.045, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_NJABL_DUL=1.946] X-Spam-Score: -0.608 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 20:21:09 -0000 ----- Forwarded message from "Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez" ----- Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 22:30:11 +0200 From: "Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez" To: ben mustill-rose Subject: Re: Gnopernicus Not talking on ubuntu 6.06 desktop] User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i Hi all To avoid gnome-panel crashes first open a terminal by running gnome-terminal at the run dialog (alt + f2). Then type gnopernicus& Then no problems with the panel. Regards, Javier. On Sat, Jun 24, 2006 at 08:39:31PM +0100, ben mustill-rose wrote: > Hi all and sorry for not replying sooner. > > I tried the thing where you type gnopernicus into the run type box, > and that does make it talk, but only to say that there is a error with > gnome panel. > I clicked inform developers, but i dunno if it did it, because it > stopped talking. > It also stops talking when i click restart program or close. > I am doing a re install of ubuntu atm, so i'll see if this fixes it. > Thanks for the explanation about the way that the layers work and your > suggestion about the problem; i don't think it would have anything to > do with the sound system as it makes the startup& login sounds > everytime regardless of whether it talks or not. > Thanks, > > BEN. > > On 21/06/06, Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez wrote: > >----- Forwarded message from "Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez" > > ----- > > > >Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 20:27:51 +0200 > >From: "Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez" > >To: ben mustill-rose > >Subject: Re: Gnopernicus Not talking on ubuntu 6.06 desktop > >User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i > > > >Hi all > > > >Ben, the problem with Gnopernicus not speaking at startup is a question of > >the sound system, not availability on sound system when Gnopernicus start, > >so speech is disabled. > >You can quit gnopernicus by presing alt + q and then restaring it again by > >pressing alt + f2 and then typing gnopernicus plus enter key. > > > >I don't know Hal, so I can give you ore detail about differents. You can > >change speech settings by pressing 0 + 8 in the numeric keypad, so you can > >hear "layer 8" and then use 4 and 6 numeric keypad to decrease/increase > >speech rate, 7 and 9 for volume and 1 or 3 for pitch. > >All the functionality of Gnopernicus screen reader is based on the numeric > >keypad, and based in layers. So you have 10 layers with differents > >functions. Press 00 for layer 0, 01 for layer 1 and so. > > > >Hope this help > > > >Regards, > > > >Javier. > >On Wed, Jun 21, 2006 at 01:48:41PM +0100, ben mustill-rose wrote: > >> Hi. > >> > >> I installed ubuntu 6.06 desktop on a laptop some time ago and with > >> that i downloaded speech since i'm blind. > >> The thing is, half the time when i log in, it doesn't talk. To fix > >> this, i will have to restart the computer again and again. > >> There doesn't seem to be any patton regarding how many times i have to > >> restart, which is kinda annoying. > >> When it does start talking, its to slow, is there a hotkey to change the > >speech? > >> And lastly, is there anything that i should kno if i am moving from > >> hal to gnopernicus? > >> Any help would be great, i'm new to linux so i dunno if i gave all the > >> right info, but if not, just ask. > >> KR, BEN. > >> _______________________________________________ > >> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > >> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > >-- > >Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez > >mailto:javier@tiflolinux.org > > > >----- End forwarded message ----- > > > >-- > >Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez > >mailto:javier@tiflolinux.org > >_______________________________________________ > >gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > >gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > >http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > -- Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez mailto:javier@tiflolinux.org ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez mailto:javier@tiflolinux.org From ashutoshsharma@gmail.com Mon Jun 26 03:19:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECE8A3B00FA for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 03:19:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29011-07 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 03:19:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.182]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 181A23B0174 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 03:19:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id i49so1476020pyi for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 00:19:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.88.18 with SMTP id q18mr5652864pyl; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 00:19:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.41.6 with HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 00:19:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <79693c1a0606260019j408974efg8d1b36465a6b56cb@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:49:27 +0530 From: "Ashu Sharma" To: kde-accessibility@kde.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Use of gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' on KDE ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2506_29911772.1151306367960" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.399 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.399 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 07:19:34 -0000 ------=_Part_2506_29911772.1151306367960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi, There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather than putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI (to avoid dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear as to what was finally decided. On a related note, is the gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE too, to set or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a system? Or, is it used only on GNOME? Thanks, Ashutosh ------=_Part_2506_29911772.1151306367960 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
Hi,
 
There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather than putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI (to avoid dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear as to what was finally decided.
 
On a related note, is the gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE too, to set or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a system? Or, is it used only on GNOME?
 
Thanks,
Ashutosh
------=_Part_2506_29911772.1151306367960-- From cerha@brailcom.org Mon Jun 26 05:14:08 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEB423B0124 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:14:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04293-07 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:14:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gate.brailcom.cz (158-84-244-84.strcechy.adsl-llu.static.bluetone.cz [84.244.84.158]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B77673B01A8 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:14:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 11545 invoked from network); 26 Jun 2006 10:52:49 +0200 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.15.2?) (192.168.15.2) by ns.brailcom.xx with SMTP; 26 Jun 2006 10:52:49 +0200 Message-ID: <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:14:01 +0200 From: Tomas Cerha Organization: Brailcom, o.p.s. User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> In-Reply-To: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.483 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.878, BAYES_20=-0.74, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -1.483 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 09:14:09 -0000 Enrico Zini wrote: > Hello, > In the meantime, however, before I hurt my brain too much with this, > what's the overall situation? Is it worth the effort of fixing > gnome-speech, or is the effort better spend on making something else > work? Hi Enrico, I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, this may be essential for some people and the Orca -> Gnome Speech -> Speech Dispatcher -> synthesizer aproach has inherent problems. This might solve your problem too. Please, see also the common "TTS API" draft at http://www.freebsoft.org/tts-api. This is a common effort of Free Desktop and FSG. Best regards, Tomas -- Brailcom, o.p.s. http://www.brailcom.org Free(b)soft project http://www.freebsoft.org Eurochance project http://eurochance.brailcom.org From themuso@themuso.com Mon Jun 26 05:17:21 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 622303B0199 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:17:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04696-01 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:17:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vscan02.westnet.com.au (vscan02.westnet.com.au [203.10.1.132]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BF373B009A for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:17:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB27411DE38 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:17:17 +0800 (WST) Received: from vscan02.westnet.com.au ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (vscan02.westnet.com.au [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08941-12 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:17:17 +0800 (WST) Received: from themuso.com (dsl-202-173-132-131.nsw.westnet.com.au [202.173.132.131]) by vscan02.westnet.com.au (Postfix) with SMTP id 903AA11DE2D for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:17:17 +0800 (WST) Received: (nullmailer pid 16386 invoked by uid 1000); Mon, 26 Jun 2006 09:17:22 -0000 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 19:17:22 +1000 From: Luke Yelavich To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech Message-ID: <20060626091722.GA16369@themuso.com> References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="0F1p//8PRICkK4MW" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.42 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.044, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.42 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 09:17:21 -0000 --0F1p//8PRICkK4MW Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jun 26, 2006 at 07:14:01PM EST, Tomas Cerha wrote: > Hi Enrico, >=20 > I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This > bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher > offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, Mind I ask when this is likely to be completed? We in the Ubuntu=20 accessibility team are intending to switch to orca as the primary screen=20 reader for Ubuntu, and would like to replace gnome-speech with=20 speech-dispatcher as the back-end of choice for speech output, due to a=20 few other things we have in the pipeline. If you would like testers, I would be happy to put my hand up and try. Thanks in advance. --=20 Luke Yelavich GPG key: 0xD06320CE=20 (http://www.themuso.com/themuso-gpg-key.txt) Email & MSN: themuso@themuso.com ICQ: 18444344 Jabber: themuso@jabber.org.au --0F1p//8PRICkK4MW Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEn6YijVefwtBjIM4RAohUAJ9bFCUPjukVXuVxUuLc520zyq0wlwCgwrt9 hmTb/aJktGYao3cCYYeBSVs= =oGv9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0F1p//8PRICkK4MW-- From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 06:10:08 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 733133B009A for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 06:10:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08484-07 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 06:10:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDDAD3B002A for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 06:10:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5QA9xFH003901 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 04:10:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1G00301PGS57@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:09:59 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-202.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.202]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1G00ISBPKN45@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:09:59 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:11:10 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [Kde-accessibility] Use of gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' on KDE ? In-reply-to: <79693c1a0606260019j408974efg8d1b36465a6b56cb@mail.gmail.com> To: Ashu Sharma Message-id: <1151316670.7079.6.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <79693c1a0606260019j408974efg8d1b36465a6b56cb@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.576 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.022, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.576 X-Spam-Level: Cc: kde-accessibility@kde.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:10:08 -0000 On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:19, Ashu Sharma wrote: > Hi, > > There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather than > putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI (to avoid > dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear as to what > was finally decided. If KDE writes to ATK, it makes the job easier in a number of ways (at the cost of introducing a glib dependency, but hiding other gnome-ish dependencies). However, the AT-SPI layer requires CORBA in order to function, so in order to actually expose useful information to our assistive technologies, an application must LD_PRELOAD the "atk-bridge" module which bridges from ATK to AT-SPI's CORBA IPC. I think this is the most effective thing to do for the time being (preload atk-bridge), since it doesn't introduce a CORBA dependency on the KDE apps (only a soft runtime dependency). The AT-SPI assistive technology clients cannot work without the AT-SPI/ORBit2/etc. libraries being present on the system anyhow, so from a practical perspective this is the minimum current dependency situation. There's another environment variable you can look for if you don't want to use gconf; GTK_MODULES. Of course that's still quite a gnome/gtk+-ish variable and arguably not appropriate to KDE anyhow, so it might be cleaner just to spawn a gconf-client executable and parse the output, in order to detect whether assistive technology support is desired or not. Also, soon there will be a slightly different mechanism for detecting the presence of the AT-SPI registry - it will place an IOR as an Xatom on the root DISPLAY window. This means you can find it without using bonobo-activation. regards Bill > > On a related note, is the gconf > key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE too, to set > or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a system? Or, is > it used only on GNOME? > > Thanks, > Ashutosh > > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > kde-accessibility mailing list > kde-accessibility@kde.org > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility From ashutoshsharma@gmail.com Mon Jun 26 08:30:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDB6F3B0175 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:30:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17354-05 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:30:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.178]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 282313B0279 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:30:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id i49so1548987pyi for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:30:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.51.13 with SMTP id d13mr5906514pyk; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:30:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.41.6 with HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:30:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <79693c1a0606260530x71d11d9dic7cfd6bb6974a1ad@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:00:08 +0530 From: "Ashu Sharma" To: "Bill Haneman" Subject: Re: [Kde-accessibility] Use of gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' on KDE ? In-Reply-To: <1151316670.7079.6.camel@linux.site> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_5856_6313645.1151325008992" References: <79693c1a0606260019j408974efg8d1b36465a6b56cb@mail.gmail.com> <1151316670.7079.6.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.487 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.088, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.487 X-Spam-Level: Cc: kde-accessibility@kde.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:30:13 -0000 ------=_Part_5856_6313645.1151325008992 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 6/26/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:19, Ashu Sharma wrote: > > Hi, > > > > There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather than > > putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI (to avoid > > dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear as to what > > was finally decided. > > If KDE writes to ATK, it makes the job easier in a number of ways (at > the cost of introducing a glib dependency, but hiding other gnome-ish > dependencies). However, the AT-SPI layer requires CORBA in order to > function, so in order to actually expose useful information to our > assistive technologies, an application must LD_PRELOAD the "atk-bridge" > module which bridges from ATK to AT-SPI's CORBA IPC. > > I think this is the most effective thing to do for the time being > (preload atk-bridge), since it doesn't introduce a CORBA dependency on > the KDE apps (only a soft runtime dependency). The AT-SPI assistive > technology clients cannot work without the AT-SPI/ORBit2/etc. libraries > being present on the system anyhow, so from a practical perspective this > is the minimum current dependency situation. > > There's another environment variable you can look for if you don't want > to use gconf; GTK_MODULES. Of course that's still quite a > gnome/gtk+-ish variable and arguably not appropriate to KDE anyhow, so > it might be cleaner just to spawn a gconf-client executable and parse > the output, in order to detect whether assistive technology support is > desired or not. Also, soon there will be a slightly different mechanism > for detecting the presence of the AT-SPI registry - it will place an IOR > as an Xatom on the root DISPLAY window. This means you can find it > without using bonobo-activation. > > regards > > Bill > > > > > On a related note, is the gconf > > key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE too, to set > > or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a system? Or, is > > it used only on GNOME? > > > > Thanks, > > Ashutosh > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > kde-accessibility mailing list > > kde-accessibility@kde.org > > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility > > Bill, Thanks for these details. I am actually wondering about the current state of KDE accessibility - whether AT clients under KDE currently depend on gnome/gconf libraries (especially if they use the gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' to enable AT support). Thanks, Ashutosh ------=_Part_5856_6313645.1151325008992 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 6/26/06, Bill Haneman <Bill.Haneman@sun.com> wrote:
On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:19, Ashu Sharma wrote:
> Hi,
>
> There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather than
> putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI (to avoid
> dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear as to what
> was finally decided.

If KDE writes to ATK, it makes the job easier in a number of ways (at
the cost of introducing a glib dependency, but hiding other gnome-ish
dependencies).  However, the AT-SPI layer requires CORBA in order to
function, so in order to actually expose useful information to our
assistive technologies, an application must LD_PRELOAD the "atk-bridge"
module which bridges from ATK to AT-SPI's CORBA IPC.

I think this is the most effective thing to do for the time being
(preload atk-bridge), since it doesn't introduce a CORBA dependency on
the KDE apps (only a soft runtime dependency).  The AT-SPI assistive
technology clients cannot work without the AT-SPI/ORBit2/etc. libraries
being present on the system anyhow, so from a practical perspective this
is the minimum current dependency situation.

There's another environment variable you can look for if you don't want
to use gconf; GTK_MODULES.  Of course that's still quite a
gnome/gtk+-ish variable and arguably not appropriate to KDE anyhow, so
it might be cleaner just to spawn a gconf-client executable and parse
the output, in order to detect whether assistive technology support is
desired or not.  Also, soon there will be a slightly different mechanism
for detecting the presence of the AT-SPI registry - it will place an IOR
as an Xatom on the root DISPLAY window.  This means you can find it
without using bonobo-activation.

regards

Bill

>
> On a related note, is the gconf
> key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE too, to set
> or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a system? Or, is
> it used only on GNOME?
>
> Thanks,
> Ashutosh
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> kde-accessibility mailing list
> kde-accessibility@kde.org
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility



Bill,
Thanks for these details.
I am actually wondering about the current state of KDE accessibility - whether AT clients under KDE currently depend on gnome/gconf libraries (especially if they use the gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' to enable AT support) .
Thanks,
Ashutosh
------=_Part_5856_6313645.1151325008992-- From enrico@enricozini.org Mon Jun 26 08:44:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCDA03B0387; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:44:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18426-01; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:44:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from maya.ngi.it (maya.ngi.it [88.149.128.3]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87FC23B02F7; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:44:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (81-174-12-206.f5.ngi.it [81.174.12.206]) by maya.ngi.it (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5QCihKc011937; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:44:43 +0200 Received: from enrico by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FuqNo-0003eT-1a; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:40:04 +0100 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:40:03 +0100 From: Enrico Zini To: Tomas Cerha Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech Message-ID: <20060626124003.GA13572@viaza> Mail-Followup-To: Tomas Cerha , gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060403 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.456 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.008, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.456 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:44:48 -0000 --NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jun 26, 2006 at 11:14:01AM +0200, Tomas Cerha wrote: > I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This > bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher > offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, this > may be essential for some people and the Orca -> Gnome Speech -> Speech > Dispatcher -> synthesizer aproach has inherent problems. This might > solve your problem too. >=20 > Please, see also the common "TTS API" draft at > http://www.freebsoft.org/tts-api. This is a common effort of Free > Desktop and FSG. Cool. Is there a way I can use all of this right now on Dapper? Ciao, Enrico --=20 GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini --NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEn9Wj9LSwzHl+v6sRAofUAJ9rGqFPNo5F+9EKH1UOKSt32EG0nwCfZZUp 64toiGSrN/swh06OHchQyCY= =hVic -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh-- From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 10:48:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA3BA3B046B for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:48:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25602-07 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:48:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 398A83B0379 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:48:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5QEmdiJ024863 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:48:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1H008012BMA0@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:48:39 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-202.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.202]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1H008072H345@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:48:39 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:49:51 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com Message-id: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.577 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.577 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:48:49 -0000 Hi Chris: The answer is, "don't implement sticky keys in your keyboard". You should be using the system-wide StickyKeys settings and feature instead (as GOK does). Interfering with the normal operation of the system wide setting (i.e clashing with it as your app does), is itself an accessibility violation. (There are several gconf keys you can use to turn sticky keys on and off - see those under /desktop/gnome/accessibility/keyboard) Bill > I've implemented sticky keys in my onscreen keyboard. When shift is > stuck down it causes the slow keys dialogue to appear. Is there a way > to suppress this dialog whilst my app is running? > > thanks > > > -- > Chris Jones From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 11:21:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83D7D3B0135 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:21:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27817-09 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:21:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A48F3B02BF for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:21:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5QFLalF005098 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 09:21:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1H005013V76K@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:21:36 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-202.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.202]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1H008O33ZZ45@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:21:36 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:22:47 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [Kde-accessibility] Use of gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' on KDE ? In-reply-to: <79693c1a0606260530x71d11d9dic7cfd6bb6974a1ad@mail.gmail.com> To: Ashu Sharma Message-id: <1151335367.7079.40.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <79693c1a0606260019j408974efg8d1b36465a6b56cb@mail.gmail.com> <1151316670.7079.6.camel@linux.site> <79693c1a0606260530x71d11d9dic7cfd6bb6974a1ad@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.577 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.577 X-Spam-Level: Cc: kde-accessibility@kde.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:21:46 -0000 Hi Ashu: Currently the state of KDE accessibility is somewhat limited. Other than some important theming and keyboard-navigation support, which does not require a complex interface such as AT-SPI, there are only a few useful utilities like KMag, KMouth, and KMousetool. While these are nice utilities, they aren't enough to allow users who cannot use a keyboard at all, or who are blind or have very limited vision, to use KDE. We have three working screen readers (for blind users) for the free desktop now; gnopernicus, orca, and LSR. For users who cannot use a keyboard, we have GOK and Dasher. All of these technologies require the full power of the AT-SPI interfaces, and thus require the ORBit2 CORBA stack in order to work. The gconf key you mention is for determining whether support for such full-features assistive technologies should be enabled or not. When KDE/Qt applications provide full-featured accessibility services, as is planned for Qt4, then those services can be bridged to AT-SPI, making those applications available to screen readers and other sorts of "user interface adapting" assistive technologies. While it would be possible to write a "KDE" screen reader or KDE onscreen keyboard for severely disable users (for instance users who cannot even 'point and click' reliably), I don't think it would be the best use of our resources. Technologies like Orca are intended to work with AT-SPI-enabled KDE apps just as they work with applications like OpenOffice, Java apps, Firefox, and other applications today, not just "gnome". By writing Orca scripts for popular KDE applications, the KDE desktop, and by fixing the inevitable bugs in KDE's keyboard navigation and accessibility support, a modest amount of development effort can go further to benefit disabled users. best regards Bill On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 13:30, Ashu Sharma wrote: > On 6/26/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:19, Ashu Sharma wrote: > > Hi, > > > > There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather > than > > putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI > (to avoid > > dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear > as to what > > was finally decided. > > If KDE writes to ATK, it makes the job easier in a number of > ways (at > the cost of introducing a glib dependency, but hiding other > gnome-ish > dependencies). However, the AT-SPI layer requires CORBA in > order to > function, so in order to actually expose useful information to > our > assistive technologies, an application must LD_PRELOAD the > "atk-bridge" > module which bridges from ATK to AT-SPI's CORBA IPC. > > I think this is the most effective thing to do for the time > being > (preload atk-bridge), since it doesn't introduce a CORBA > dependency on > the KDE apps (only a soft runtime dependency). The AT-SPI > assistive > technology clients cannot work without the AT-SPI/ORBit2/etc. > libraries > being present on the system anyhow, so from a practical > perspective this > is the minimum current dependency situation. > > There's another environment variable you can look for if you > don't want > to use gconf; GTK_MODULES. Of course that's still quite a > gnome/gtk+-ish variable and arguably not appropriate to KDE > anyhow, so > it might be cleaner just to spawn a gconf-client executable > and parse > the output, in order to detect whether assistive technology > support is > desired or not. Also, soon there will be a slightly different > mechanism > for detecting the presence of the AT-SPI registry - it will > place an IOR > as an Xatom on the root DISPLAY window. This means you can > find it > without using bonobo-activation. > > regards > > Bill > > > > > On a related note, is the gconf > > key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE > too, to set > > or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a > system? Or, is > > it used only on GNOME? > > > > Thanks, > > Ashutosh > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > kde-accessibility mailing list > > kde-accessibility@kde.org > > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility > > > > Bill, > Thanks for these details. > I am actually wondering about the current state of KDE accessibility - > whether AT clients under KDE currently depend on gnome/gconf libraries > (especially if they use the gconf key > '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' to enable AT support) . > Thanks, > Ashutosh > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > kde-accessibility mailing list > kde-accessibility@kde.org > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility From ashutoshsharma@gmail.com Mon Jun 26 11:43:04 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 801FA3B03F3 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:43:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29596-02 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:43:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.179]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74DD33B03BC for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:43:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id d42so1560606pyd for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.60.16 with SMTP id n16mr4625437pyk; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.41.6 with HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <79693c1a0606260843s8c12ba3v75e72b38a712f3c1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:13:00 +0530 From: "Ashu Sharma" To: "Bill Haneman" Subject: Re: [Kde-accessibility] Use of gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' on KDE ? In-Reply-To: <1151335367.7079.40.camel@linux.site> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_217_32816475.1151336580471" References: <79693c1a0606260019j408974efg8d1b36465a6b56cb@mail.gmail.com> <1151316670.7079.6.camel@linux.site> <79693c1a0606260530x71d11d9dic7cfd6bb6974a1ad@mail.gmail.com> <1151335367.7079.40.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.239 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.336, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, HTML_40_50=0.496, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.239 X-Spam-Level: Cc: kde-accessibility@kde.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:43:04 -0000 ------=_Part_217_32816475.1151336580471 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 6/26/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > Hi Ashu: > > Currently the state of KDE accessibility is somewhat limited. Other > than some important theming and keyboard-navigation support, which does > not require a complex interface such as AT-SPI, there are only a few > useful utilities like KMag, KMouth, and KMousetool. While these are > nice utilities, they aren't enough to allow users who cannot use a > keyboard at all, or who are blind or have very limited vision, to use > KDE. > > We have three working screen readers (for blind users) for the free > desktop now; gnopernicus, orca, and LSR. For users who cannot use a > keyboard, we have GOK and Dasher. All of these technologies require the > full power of the AT-SPI interfaces, and thus require the ORBit2 CORBA > stack in order to work. The gconf key you mention is for determining > whether support for such full-features assistive technologies should be > enabled or not. > > When KDE/Qt applications provide full-featured accessibility services, > as is planned for Qt4, then those services can be bridged to AT-SPI, > making those applications available to screen readers and other sorts of > "user interface adapting" assistive technologies. > > While it would be possible to write a "KDE" screen reader or KDE > onscreen keyboard for severely disable users (for instance users who > cannot even 'point and click' reliably), I don't think it would be the > best use of our resources. Technologies like Orca are intended to work > with AT-SPI-enabled KDE apps just as they work with applications like > OpenOffice, Java apps, Firefox, and other applications today, not just > "gnome". By writing Orca scripts for popular KDE applications, the KDE > desktop, and by fixing the inevitable bugs in KDE's keyboard navigation > and accessibility support, a modest amount of development effort can go > further to benefit disabled users. > > best regards > > Bill > > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 13:30, Ashu Sharma wrote: > > On 6/26/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:19, Ashu Sharma wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather > > than > > > putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI > > (to avoid > > > dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear > > as to what > > > was finally decided. > > > > If KDE writes to ATK, it makes the job easier in a number of > > ways (at > > the cost of introducing a glib dependency, but hiding other > > gnome-ish > > dependencies). However, the AT-SPI layer requires CORBA in > > order to > > function, so in order to actually expose useful information to > > our > > assistive technologies, an application must LD_PRELOAD the > > "atk-bridge" > > module which bridges from ATK to AT-SPI's CORBA IPC. > > > > I think this is the most effective thing to do for the time > > being > > (preload atk-bridge), since it doesn't introduce a CORBA > > dependency on > > the KDE apps (only a soft runtime dependency). The AT-SPI > > assistive > > technology clients cannot work without the AT-SPI/ORBit2/etc. > > libraries > > being present on the system anyhow, so from a practical > > perspective this > > is the minimum current dependency situation. > > > > There's another environment variable you can look for if you > > don't want > > to use gconf; GTK_MODULES. Of course that's still quite a > > gnome/gtk+-ish variable and arguably not appropriate to KDE > > anyhow, so > > it might be cleaner just to spawn a gconf-client executable > > and parse > > the output, in order to detect whether assistive technology > > support is > > desired or not. Also, soon there will be a slightly different > > mechanism > > for detecting the presence of the AT-SPI registry - it will > > place an IOR > > as an Xatom on the root DISPLAY window. This means you can > > find it > > without using bonobo-activation. > > > > regards > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > On a related note, is the gconf > > > key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE > > too, to set > > > or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a > > system? Or, is > > > it used only on GNOME? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Ashutosh > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > kde-accessibility mailing list > > > kde-accessibility@kde.org > > > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility > > > > > > > > Bill, > > Thanks for these details. > > I am actually wondering about the current state of KDE accessibility - > > whether AT clients under KDE currently depend on gnome/gconf libraries > > (especially if they use the gconf key > > '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' to enable AT support) . > > Thanks, > > Ashutosh > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > kde-accessibility mailing list > > kde-accessibility@kde.org > > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility > > Hi Bill, These details are really useful. Thanks! I suppose things will get much better on KDE after Qt4 or with more application specific Orca scripts. Thanks, Ashu ------=_Part_217_32816475.1151336580471 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
On 6/26/06, Bill Haneman <Bill.Haneman@sun.com> wrote:
Hi Ashu:

Currently the state of KDE accessibility is somewhat limited.  Other
than some important theming and keyboard-navigation support, which does
not require a complex interface such as AT-SPI, there are only a few
useful utilities like KMag, KMouth, and KMousetool.  While these are
nice utilities, they aren't enough to allow users who cannot use a
keyboard at all, or who are blind or have very limited vision, to use
KDE.

We have three working screen readers (for blind users) for the free
desktop now; gnopernicus, orca, and LSR.  For users who cannot use a
keyboard, we have GOK and Dasher.  All of these technologies require the
full power of the AT-SPI interfaces, and thus require the ORBit2 CORBA
stack in order to work.  The gconf key you mention is for determining
whether support for such full-features assistive technologies should be
enabled or not.

When KDE/Qt applications provide full-featured accessibility services,
as is planned for Qt4, then those services can be bridged to AT-SPI,
making those applications available to screen readers and other sorts of
"user interface adapting" assistive technologies.

While it would be possible to write a "KDE" screen reader or KDE
onscreen keyboard for severely disable users (for instance users who
cannot even 'point and click' reliably), I don't think it would be the
best use of our resources.  Technologies like Orca are intended to work
with AT-SPI-enabled KDE apps just as they work with applications like
OpenOffice, Java apps, Firefox, and other applications today, not just
"gnome".  By writing Orca scripts for popular KDE applications, the KDE
desktop, and by fixing the inevitable bugs in KDE's keyboard navigation
and accessibility support, a modest amount of development effort can go
further to benefit disabled users.

best regards

Bill

On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 13:30, Ashu Sharma wrote:
> On 6/26/06, Bill Haneman < Bill.Haneman@sun.com> wrote:
>         On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:19, Ashu Sharma wrote:
>         > Hi,
>         >
>         > There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather
>         than
>         > putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI
>         (to avoid
>         > dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear
>         as to what
>         > was finally decided.
>
>         If KDE writes to ATK, it makes the job easier in a number of
>         ways (at
>         the cost of introducing a glib dependency, but hiding other
>         gnome-ish
>         dependencies).  However, the AT-SPI layer requires CORBA in
>         order to
>         function, so in order to actually expose useful information to
>         our
>         assistive technologies, an application must LD_PRELOAD the
>         "atk-bridge"
>         module which bridges from ATK to AT-SPI's CORBA IPC.
>
>         I think this is the most effective thing to do for the time
>         being
>         (preload atk-bridge), since it doesn't introduce a CORBA
>         dependency on
>         the KDE apps (only a soft runtime dependency).  The AT-SPI
>         assistive
>         technology clients cannot work without the AT-SPI/ORBit2/etc.
>         libraries
>         being present on the system anyhow, so from a practical
>         perspective this
>         is the minimum current dependency situation.
>
>         There's another environment variable you can look for if you
>         don't want
>         to use gconf; GTK_MODULES.  Of course that's still quite a
>         gnome/gtk+-ish variable and arguably not appropriate to KDE
>         anyhow, so
>         it might be cleaner just to spawn a gconf-client executable
>         and parse
>         the output, in order to detect whether assistive technology
>         support is
>         desired or not.  Also, soon there will be a slightly different
>         mechanism
>         for detecting the presence of the AT-SPI registry - it will
>         place an IOR
>         as an Xatom on the root DISPLAY window.  This means you can
>         find it
>         without using bonobo-activation.
>
>         regards
>
>         Bill
>
>         >
>         > On a related note, is the gconf
>         > key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE
>         too, to set
>         > or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a
>         system? Or, is
>         > it used only on GNOME?
>         >
>         > Thanks,
>         > Ashutosh
>         >
>         >
>         ______________________________________________________________________
>         > _______________________________________________
>         > kde-accessibility mailing list
>         > kde-accessibility@kde.org
>         > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility
>
>
>
> Bill,
> Thanks for these details.
> I am actually wondering about the current state of KDE accessibility -
> whether AT clients under KDE currently depend on gnome/gconf libraries
> (especially if they use the gconf key
> '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' to enable AT support) .
> Thanks,
> Ashutosh
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> kde-accessibility mailing list
> kde-accessibility@kde.org
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility


Hi Bill,
 
These details are really useful. Thanks!
I suppose things will get much better on KDE after Qt4 or with more application specific Orca scripts.
 
Thanks,
Ashu
------=_Part_217_32816475.1151336580471-- From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Mon Jun 26 16:33:58 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99BB63B031D for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:33:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14290-03 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:33:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.205]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BC1E3B008B for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:33:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 13so1437074nzp for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:33:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.138.19 with SMTP id l19mr1632308nzd; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:33:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.73.15 with HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:33:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:33:56 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" Sender: skating.tortoise@gmail.com To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-Reply-To: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 99b8f1f66b5e77f8 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.395 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.005, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.395 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:33:58 -0000 The sytem-wide StickyKeys is too inflexible for my needs. I have the following gripes: * A user might want the onscreen keyboard to be sticky but not the physical. * It allows me to implement the functionality in a way that is more suitable for an onscreen keyboard. One click sets sticky for one click of a non sticky character, a further click sets sticky until a third click. * The sticky keys dialogue is annoying. A far better way would be to enable it in the preferences, since you must to enable assistive technology support and be notified of it's act/deactivation by a notification bubble. * This is not purely a a11y project. It has other uses, tablet pc's etc. Therefore I wanted a soft dependency on assistive technologies. * GOK's implentation is very unreliable on my system, and not something I particularly want to emulate. I know I should fix these gripes instead of treading my own path. However, this is a Summer of Code project and so I need to produce the expected results before a deadline. In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". Thanks for your time. On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > Hi Chris: > > The answer is, "don't implement sticky keys in your keyboard". You > should be using the system-wide StickyKeys settings and feature instead > (as GOK does). > > Interfering with the normal operation of the system wide setting (i.e > clashing with it as your app does), is itself an accessibility > violation. > > (There are several gconf keys you can use to turn sticky keys on and off > - see those under /desktop/gnome/accessibility/keyboard) > > Bill > > > I've implemented sticky keys in my onscreen keyboard. When shift is > > stuck down it causes the slow keys dialogue to appear. Is there a way > > to suppress this dialog whilst my app is running? > > > > thanks > > > > > > -- > > Chris Jones > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Mon Jun 26 16:43:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3667E3B01E8 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:43:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14968-01 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:43:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.204]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABE423B00F9 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:43:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 13so22255nzn for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:43:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.221.39 with SMTP id t39mr3268556nzg; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:43:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.73.15 with HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:43:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:43:30 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.5 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:43:34 -0000 Thanks for your reply. The system-wide StickyKeys is too inflexible for my needs. I have the following gripes: * A user might want the onscreen keyboard to be sticky but not the physical. * It does not allow me to implement the functionality in a way that is suitable for an onscreen keyboard. My implementations uses one click to set sticky for one click of a non sticky character, a further click sets sticky until a third click or the stuck key. * The sticky keys dialogue is annoying. A far better way would be to enable it in the preferences, since you must to enable assistive technology support and be notified of it's act/deactivation by a notification bubble. * This is not purely a a11y project. It has other uses, tablet PCs etc. Therefore I wanted a soft dependency on assistive technologies. * GOK's implementation is very unreliable on my system, and not something I particularly want to emulate. I know I should fix these gripes instead of treading my own path. However, this is a Summer of Code project and so I need to produce the expected results before a deadline. In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > Hi Chris: > > The answer is, "don't implement sticky keys in your keyboard". You > should be using the system-wide StickyKeys settings and feature instead > (as GOK does). > > Interfering with the normal operation of the system wide setting (i.e > clashing with it as your app does), is itself an accessibility > violation. > > (There are several gconf keys you can use to turn sticky keys on and off > - see those under /desktop/gnome/accessibility/keyboard) > > Bill > > > I've implemented sticky keys in my onscreen keyboard. When shift is > > stuck down it causes the slow keys dialogue to appear. Is there a way > > to suppress this dialog whilst my app is running? > > > > thanks > > > > > > -- > > Chris Jones > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 16:53:02 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8B223B03E8 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:53:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15302-10 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:52:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Sun.COM [192.18.98.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38EB13B031D for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:52:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5QKqvel002689 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:52:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1H00201IWLS9@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:52:57 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-202.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.202]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1H00H7JJC8F4@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:52:57 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:54:08 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: To: Chris Jones Message-id: <1151355248.7079.75.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:53:03 -0000 On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 21:43, Chris Jones wrote: > Thanks for your reply. > > The system-wide StickyKeys is too inflexible for my needs. I have the > following gripes: > * A user might want the onscreen keyboard to be sticky but not the physical. I am not convinced that users will really want this, perhaps this is your opinion. It is still an accessibility violation to interfere with the way the built-in keyboard accessibility features work. > * It does not allow me to implement the functionality in a way that > is suitable for an onscreen keyboard. My implementations uses one > click to set sticky for one > click of a non sticky character, a further click sets sticky until a > third click or the stuck key. The system dialog settings work this way on most systems. > * The sticky keys dialogue is annoying. A far better way would be > to enable it in the preferences, since you must to enable assistive > technology support and be notified of it's act/deactivation by a > notification bubble. You can already turn this off, but it needs to be the default for new desktops/new users, in order to allow users who need it to turn it on via the keyboard shortcuts. > * This is not purely a a11y project. It has other uses, tablet PCs > etc. Therefore I wanted a soft dependency on assistive technologies. The StickyKeys feature is not an assistive technology, per se. However it is a standard platform feature. > * GOK's implementation is very unreliable on my system, and not > something I particularly want to emulate. Have you filed any bug reports? ALL onscreen keyboards will suffer from problems if they use the system core pointer for input, because of pointer grabs which virtually every GUI toolkit does. > I know I should fix these gripes instead of treading my own path. > However, this is a Summer of Code project and so I need to produce the > expected results before a deadline. > > In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". I suggest you use the system gconf keys for sticky keys. regards Bill > > On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > Hi Chris: > > > > The answer is, "don't implement sticky keys in your keyboard". You > > should be using the system-wide StickyKeys settings and feature instead > > (as GOK does). > > > > Interfering with the normal operation of the system wide setting (i.e > > clashing with it as your app does), is itself an accessibility > > violation. > > > > (There are several gconf keys you can use to turn sticky keys on and off > > - see those under /desktop/gnome/accessibility/keyboard) > > > > Bill > > > > > I've implemented sticky keys in my onscreen keyboard. When shift is > > > stuck down it causes the slow keys dialogue to appear. Is there a way > > > to suppress this dialog whilst my app is running? > > > > > > thanks > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Chris Jones > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > -- > Chris Jones > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From henrik@ubuntu.com Mon Jun 26 17:28:25 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 715EE3B00C1 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:28:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17303-03 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:28:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1082A3B00AD for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:28:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.0.10] (henrik.gotadsl.co.uk [82.133.122.11]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D30223788D; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:28:18 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:28:26 +0100 From: Henrik Nilsen Omma User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Jones Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.593 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.006, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.593 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:28:25 -0000 Chris Jones wrote: > ... > > In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". Chris, Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the state internally in SOK? IOW: 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift is clicked again you unset the flag. That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an 'accessibility violation'. Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? - Henrik From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 17:39:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CA353B01FF for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:39:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17635-04 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:39:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2953C3B0157 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:39:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5QLd8Uc010930 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:39:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1H00E01KY47T@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:39:13 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-202.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.202]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1H00HS8LH8F4@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:39:09 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:40:20 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> To: Henrik Nilsen Omma Message-id: <1151358020.7079.77.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:39:27 -0000 On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? Are you going to say something helpful? :-/ Bill > - Henrik > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From henrik@ubuntu.com Mon Jun 26 18:05:10 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24E3B3B038D for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:05:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18852-08 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:05:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E91383B028E for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:05:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.0.10] (henrik.gotadsl.co.uk [82.133.122.11]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4D8A237AE0; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:05:02 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <44A05A17.10107@ubuntu.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:05:11 +0100 From: Henrik Nilsen Omma User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151358020.7079.77.camel@linux.site> In-Reply-To: <1151358020.7079.77.camel@linux.site> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.594 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.005, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.594 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:05:10 -0000 Bill Haneman wrote: > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > > >> Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? >> > > Are you going to say something helpful? > > OK, I should have resisted that last line, sorry. But there is a valid point under the sarcasm, which is: we are trying to make new and better tools here and it is not very helpful to then always refer back to the existing tools which really don't work. - Henrik From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 18:27:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3B5A3B01FF for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:27:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19726-10 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:27:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2271D3B0088 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:27:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5QMRhsc010962 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:27:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1H00701N9XYA@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:27:42 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-202.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.202]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1H00HENNQ6F4@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:27:42 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:28:54 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: <44A05A17.10107@ubuntu.com> To: Henrik Nilsen Omma Message-id: <1151360933.7079.83.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151358020.7079.77.camel@linux.site> <44A05A17.10107@ubuntu.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:27:46 -0000 On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 23:05, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > Bill Haneman wrote: > > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > > > > > >> Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? > >> > > > > Are you going to say something helpful? > > > > > > OK, I should have resisted that last line, sorry. > > But there is a valid point under the sarcasm, which is: > we are trying to > make new and better tools here and it is not very helpful > to then always > refer back to the existing tools which really don't work. You keep saying the existing tools "don't work", but you don't seem to be helping to make them work. 90% of all GOK problems are configuration issues. This is documented in the Gnome Accessibility Guide - mostly it comes down to broken-ness in the way XInput works in most systems out-of-the box. I think in the end we will have to ditch XInput where GOK is concerned, but although several research projects have been carried out to try and identify alternatives, we haven't found one that really fits the bill. Henrik, I thought it was part of your job to do QA and testing of Ubuntu accessibility... so I would hope you would be interested in helping work towards solutions. Building a new onscreen keyboard that doesn't meet the needs of disabled users isn't the right solution in my opinion. Did you even investigate GOK's configurability? I really believe that there are multiple ways in which GOK could have been used to solve the problem you are apparently attempting to solve, but I know for a fact that you didn't have any in-depth discussions with the maintainers. Bill > - Henrik > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 18:38:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC0823B0201 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:38:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20536-04 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:38:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (nwkea-mail-1.sun.com [192.18.42.13]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D43B3B028E for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:38:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5QMch8F017296 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:38:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1H00B01NVL0X@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:38:43 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-202.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.202]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1H00H3VO8IF4@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:38:43 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:39:54 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> To: Henrik Nilsen Omma Message-id: <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:38:46 -0000 On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > Chris Jones wrote: > > ... > > > > In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > > for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > > SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > > fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". > Chris, > > Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the > state internally in SOK? IOW: We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. regards Bill > 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked > SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. > > 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time > the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift > is clicked again you unset the flag. > > That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an > 'accessibility violation'. > > Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? > > - Henrik > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Mon Jun 26 19:51:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E3D03B0011 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 19:51:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23446-08 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 19:51:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.197]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3169F3B00A1 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 19:51:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i1so1971854nzh for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.252.42 with SMTP id z42mr8821381nzh; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.73.15 with HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:51:32 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-Reply-To: <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.495 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.095, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.495 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:51:36 -0000 But this very same thing makes it very awkward who want sticky keys on the keyboard and non-sticky on a physical. Which would be true for all non-a11y users and some a11y users. In the end though the only manner it interferes with my keyboard is the annoying dialogue that pops up, and the average gnome-ally user will probably be plenty used to seeing annoying dialogs anyway. The slow keys dialogue however is another matter though. Normal operations are not resumed until it is dismissed. Which in itself incredibly annoying. When planning the SOK I wanted to stay away from the three odd dialogs that GOK pops up when it is started. The plain fact is I don't want any dialogs when starting SOK. At all. Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely unacceptable. On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > > Chris Jones wrote: > > > ... > > > > > > In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > > > for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > > > SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > > > fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". > > Chris, > > > > Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the > > state internally in SOK? IOW: > > We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. > It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build > an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use > it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. > > If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key > while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is > inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a > problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock > status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you > want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. > > google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's > section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. > > regards > > Bill > > > 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked > > SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. > > > > 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time > > the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift > > is clicked again you unset the flag. > > > > That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an > > 'accessibility violation'. > > > > Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? > > > > - Henrik > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 20:33:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 990BD3B00E4 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:33:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25514-08 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:33:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC7A63B00B9 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:32:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-03.sun.com ([192.18.39.113]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5R0Wp3I018727 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-03.sun.com by d1-sfbay-03.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J1H00101T7TKN00@d1-sfbay-03.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.25.76] by d1-sfbay-03.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J1H0092KTIRRY90@d1-sfbay-03.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:32:50 -0700 From: Peter Korn Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: Chris Jones Message-id: <44A07CB2.4090808@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.539 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.059, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.539 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:33:03 -0000 Hi Chris, I think there are two issues here. Well, three: 1. Can an on-screen keyboard implement "sticky" modifiers without using the system support for sticky modifiers? 2. Can an on-screen keyboard circumvent/disable the system support for sticky modifiers (and slow keys, and...)? 3. Is the right way to "fix" what is "broken" in GOK doing another project rather than working with the existing GOK code to "fix" those "broken" things? I suggest that #3 may be somewhat religious at this point; I'm personally saddened that we aren't at least looking seriously at GOK improvements, but fundamentally a goal of UNIX accessibility is to foster the development of a rich accessibility ecosystem - and a rich ecosystem has room for multiple approaches to similar problems (cf. Orca and Gnopernicus and LSR). I have no issues with #1 - I see no reason why an on-screen keyboard cannot have its own way of making certain modifiers sticky on its own user interface *without* doing so through the system-wide setting mechanisms. Such a decision is I think a valid user-interface policy decision of an individual application. However, it is a direct Section 508 violation for an application to override or ignore system-wide accessibility settings. It is even more egregious for an application that claims to be at least in part for people with disabilities (and thus an 'enlightened' application) to do so. So, my suggestion is that if you simply cannot possible use the system-settings for sticky keys as part of your own UI, that you make things sticky your own way; however that if the system-wide settings are on that you use and respect those (complete with the dialog box that you seem to dislike). Regards, Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. > But this very same thing makes it very awkward who want sticky keys on > the keyboard and non-sticky on a physical. Which would be true for > all non-a11y users and some a11y users. > > In the end though the only manner it interferes with my keyboard is > the annoying dialogue that pops up, and the average gnome-ally user > will probably be plenty used to seeing annoying dialogs anyway. > > The slow keys dialogue however is another matter though. Normal > operations are not resumed until it is dismissed. Which in itself > incredibly annoying. > > When planning the SOK I wanted to stay away from the three odd dialogs > that GOK pops up when it is started. The plain fact is I don't want > any dialogs when starting SOK. At all. > > Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > unacceptable. > > On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > >> On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: >> >>> Chris Jones wrote: >>> >>>> ... >>>> >>>> In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable >>>> for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the >>>> SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and >>>> fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". >>>> >>> Chris, >>> >>> Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the >>> state internally in SOK? IOW: >>> >> We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. >> It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build >> an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use >> it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. >> >> If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key >> while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is >> inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a >> problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock >> status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you >> want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. >> >> google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's >> section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. >> >> regards >> >> Bill >> >> >>> 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked >>> SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. >>> >>> 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time >>> the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift >>> is clicked again you unset the flag. >>> >>> That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an >>> 'accessibility violation'. >>> >>> Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? >>> >>> - Henrik >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >>> >> > > > From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 20:42:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B88403B0319 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:42:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26206-02 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:42:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3F033B02D1 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:42:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-03.sun.com ([192.18.39.113]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5R0gPqD019717 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-03.sun.com by d1-sfbay-03.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J1H00101T7TKN00@d1-sfbay-03.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.25.76] by d1-sfbay-03.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J1H009XQTYLRU70@d1-sfbay-03.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:42:20 -0700 From: Peter Korn Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: <44A07CB2.4090808@sun.com> Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: Chris Jones Message-id: <44A07EEC.1050109@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> <44A07CB2.4090808@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.542 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.056, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.542 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:42:27 -0000 Hi Chris, One more thing. You write: > Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > unacceptable. Have you filed an RFE on this issue (seeking a way to invoke the system-wide Sticky-Keys functionality programatically without the user dialog box), or are you simply trying to "work around it"? I would hope that part of a SoC project is to at least file bugs/RFEs for things you want, even if you "work around them" for the purposes of meeting a project deadline. I would hope that filing bugs/RFEs is part of the purview of SoC projects. Regards, Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. > Hi Chris, > > I think there are two issues here. Well, three: > > 1. Can an on-screen keyboard implement "sticky" modifiers without using > the system support for sticky modifiers? > 2. Can an on-screen keyboard circumvent/disable the system support for > sticky modifiers (and slow keys, and...)? > 3. Is the right way to "fix" what is "broken" in GOK doing another > project rather than working with the existing GOK code to "fix" those > "broken" things? > > I suggest that #3 may be somewhat religious at this point; I'm > personally saddened that we aren't at least looking seriously at GOK > improvements, but fundamentally a goal of UNIX accessibility is to > foster the development of a rich accessibility ecosystem - and a rich > ecosystem has room for multiple approaches to similar problems (cf. Orca > and Gnopernicus and LSR). > > I have no issues with #1 - I see no reason why an on-screen keyboard > cannot have its own way of making certain modifiers sticky on its own > user interface *without* doing so through the system-wide setting > mechanisms. Such a decision is I think a valid user-interface policy > decision of an individual application. > > However, it is a direct Section 508 violation for an application to > override or ignore system-wide accessibility settings. It is even more > egregious for an application that claims to be at least in part for > people with disabilities (and thus an 'enlightened' application) to do so. > > > So, my suggestion is that if you simply cannot possible use the > system-settings for sticky keys as part of your own UI, that you make > things sticky your own way; however that if the system-wide settings are > on that you use and respect those (complete with the dialog box that you > seem to dislike). > > > Regards, > > Peter Korn > Accessibility Architect, > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > >> But this very same thing makes it very awkward who want sticky keys on >> the keyboard and non-sticky on a physical. Which would be true for >> all non-a11y users and some a11y users. >> >> In the end though the only manner it interferes with my keyboard is >> the annoying dialogue that pops up, and the average gnome-ally user >> will probably be plenty used to seeing annoying dialogs anyway. >> >> The slow keys dialogue however is another matter though. Normal >> operations are not resumed until it is dismissed. Which in itself >> incredibly annoying. >> >> When planning the SOK I wanted to stay away from the three odd dialogs >> that GOK pops up when it is started. The plain fact is I don't want >> any dialogs when starting SOK. At all. >> >> Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one >> dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely >> unacceptable. >> >> On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: >> >> >>> On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Chris Jones wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> ... >>>>> >>>>> In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable >>>>> for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the >>>>> SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and >>>>> fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Chris, >>>> >>>> Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the >>>> state internally in SOK? IOW: >>>> >>>> >>> We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. >>> It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build >>> an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use >>> it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. >>> >>> If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key >>> while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is >>> inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a >>> problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock >>> status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you >>> want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. >>> >>> google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's >>> section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. >>> >>> regards >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> >>> >>>> 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked >>>> SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. >>>> >>>> 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time >>>> the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift >>>> is clicked again you unset the flag. >>>> >>>> That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an >>>> 'accessibility violation'. >>>> >>>> Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? >>>> >>>> - Henrik >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >>>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >>>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > From cerha@brailcom.org Tue Jun 27 03:30:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 380E63B02F3 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 03:30:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12733-05 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 03:30:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gate.brailcom.cz (158-84-244-84.strcechy.adsl-llu.static.bluetone.cz [84.244.84.158]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C08F93B0224 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 03:30:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 12155 invoked from network); 27 Jun 2006 09:09:08 +0200 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.15.2?) (192.168.15.2) by ns.brailcom.xx with SMTP; 27 Jun 2006 09:09:08 +0200 Message-ID: <44A0FAB5.7070906@brailcom.org> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:30:29 +0200 From: Tomas Cerha Organization: Brailcom, o.p.s. User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060626091722.GA16369@themuso.com> In-Reply-To: <20060626091722.GA16369@themuso.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.394 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.070, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.394 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 07:30:33 -0000 Luke Yelavich wrote: > Mind I ask when this is likely to be completed? > If you would like testers, I would be happy to put my hand up and try. Hi Luke, I hope to be able to make something available this week, but can't promise, since I'm at Guadec and it might be hard to find some spare time. If not, then I'll be back at work by the middle of July. I will definitely announce it as soon as there is something. Best regards, Tomas. -- Brailcom, o.p.s. http://www.brailcom.org Free(b)soft project http://www.freebsoft.org Eurochance project http://eurochance.brailcom.org From obert01@terramitica.net Tue Jun 27 05:58:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFB0B3B02C5 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 05:58:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21911-02 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 05:58:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sunset.terramitica.net (terramitica.net [82.230.142.140]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0F573B0088 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 05:58:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sunset.terramitica.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6D84D1FFC1; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:57:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:57:47 +0200 From: Olivier BERT To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech Message-ID: <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.567 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.032, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.567 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 09:58:45 -0000 > I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This > bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher > offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, this > may be essential for some people and the Orca -> Gnome Speech -> Speech > Dispatcher -> synthesizer aproach has inherent problems. This might > solve your problem too. > > Please, see also the common "TTS API" draft at > http://www.freebsoft.org/tts-api. This is a common effort of Free > Desktop and FSG. Very very good idea. Unfortunately, gnome-speech was not very stable, sometimes speech randomly stops. And it's true that it will optimize the speech chain. orca -> gnome speech -> speech-dispatcher -> synthesis was quite long :) And so, it must be nearly impossible to debug it. So thanks very much Tomas for this work ! -- Olivier BERT e-mail: obert01@mistigri.org Etudiant a l'E.P.I.T.A. (cycle ingenieur, 3eme annee) Tel: 06 07 69 79 71 From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Tue Jun 27 06:55:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AE9B3B009A for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 06:55:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24503-05 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 06:55:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EA133B006C for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 06:55:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5RAtKd4008557 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 04:55:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1I00501MBGFB@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:55:19 +0100 (BST) Received: from dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM (dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM [129.156.226.143]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1I002FWMC7GU@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:55:19 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:56:31 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: To: Chris Jones Message-id: <1151405791.7083.10.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.497 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.101, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.497 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 10:55:57 -0000 Hi Chris: I'll try to respond to each of your points in turn: On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 00:51, Chris Jones wrote: > But this very same thing makes it very awkward who want sticky keys on > the keyboard and non-sticky on a physical. Which would be true for > all non-a11y users and some a11y users. I don't understand what you are saying here, "the very same thing." My suggestion to use XKB client API would make it quite feasible for the physical keyboard to be non-sticky and for the onscreen keyboard to be sticky. Please re-read my post and check the XKB APIs. If after investigating it you still can't find what you are looking for, email me and I will try to assist - but you should read section 10.6 of the XKBlib manual first. > In the end though the only manner it interferes with my keyboard is > the annoying dialogue that pops up, and the average gnome-ally user > will probably be plenty used to seeing annoying dialogs anyway. The dialog pops up because you are indeed turning on SlowKeys. This is because of the way in which you are implementing sticky-keys in your application. What you should avoid is generating a key-press without a following key-release, since this triggers SlowKeys just as it does when you press and hold the Shift key on the physical keyboard. Perhaps you are talking about some other dialog as well? I'm afraid it's not clear from your messages. > The slow keys dialogue however is another matter though. Normal > operations are not resumed until it is dismissed. Which in itself > incredibly annoying. Without it, the keyboard would silently begin to require long press and hold sequences in order to work; this is necessary for users with some types of disabilities, but it's essential that the end user be warned when the keyboard's behavior is being changed in this way (in response to end user action, which is the case here). > When planning the SOK I wanted to stay away from the three odd dialogs > that GOK pops up when it is started. The plain fact is I don't want > any dialogs when starting SOK. At all. You can make GOK suppress those warnings I believe. If you do get them, READ THEM, they are telling you that your system has serious configuration issues which may make GOK unusable! > Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > unacceptable. This isn't at all true. You can easily programmatically turn this feature on when your keyboard starts, and turn it off when it exits - you can even turn the feature on and off when the mouse enters and leaves your keyboard, if that's what you want. Bear in mind that ANY onscreen keyboard that uses the mouse will fail to work properly when used to pop up menus, etc. via keyboard navigation, because of system toolkit pointer grabs. Are you aware of that fact? It will strike your onscreen keyboard as well. This is the reason for GOK's somewhat brittle configuration requirements, and the reason you are warned not to use GOK via the system core pointer. Bill > On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote > > > Chris Jones wrote: > > > > ... > > > > > > > > In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > > > > for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > > > > SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > > > > fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". > > > Chris, > > > > > > Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the > > > state internally in SOK? IOW: > > > > We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. > > It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build > > an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use > > it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. > > > > If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key > > while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is > > inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a > > problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock > > status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you > > want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. > > > > google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's > > section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. > > > > regards > > > > Bill > > > > > 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked > > > SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. > > > > > > 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time > > > the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift > > > is clicked again you unset the flag. > > > > > > That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an > > > 'accessibility violation'. > > > > > > Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? > > > > > > - Henrik > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > -- > Chris Jones > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Tue Jun 27 06:57:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D80933B00FF for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 06:57:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24638-04 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 06:57:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 877CE3B0098 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 06:57:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5RAvL7o009675 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 04:57:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1I00501MBGFB@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:57:20 +0100 (BST) Received: from dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM (dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM [129.156.226.143]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1I0021LMFKGU@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:57:20 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:58:32 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: <44A07EEC.1050109@sun.com> To: Peter Korn Message-id: <1151405912.7083.13.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> <44A07CB2.4090808@sun.com> <44A07EEC.1050109@sun.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.498 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.498 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 10:57:47 -0000 On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 01:42, Peter Korn wrote: > Hi Chris, > > One more thing. You write: > > > Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > > dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > > unacceptable. > > Have you filed an RFE on this issue (seeking a way to invoke the > system-wide Sticky-Keys functionality programatically without the user > dialog box), This is trivial to do. If you modify the key via gconf API, either by linking to gconf or just spawning a gconftool-2 command line, then you can change these settings without triggering the warning dialogs. If this has somehow regressed (it has worked on every system I know of, for several years), then a bug needs to be filed. Billy > or are you simply trying to "work around it"? I would hope > that part of a SoC project is to at least file bugs/RFEs for things you > want, even if you "work around them" for the purposes of meeting a > project deadline. I would hope that filing bugs/RFEs is part of the > purview of SoC projects. > > Regards, > > > Peter Korn > Accessibility Architect, > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > > Hi Chris, > > > > I think there are two issues here. Well, three: > > > > 1. Can an on-screen keyboard implement "sticky" modifiers without using > > the system support for sticky modifiers? > > 2. Can an on-screen keyboard circumvent/disable the system support for > > sticky modifiers (and slow keys, and...)? > > 3. Is the right way to "fix" what is "broken" in GOK doing another > > project rather than working with the existing GOK code to "fix" those > > "broken" things? > > > > I suggest that #3 may be somewhat religious at this point; I'm > > personally saddened that we aren't at least looking seriously at GOK > > improvements, but fundamentally a goal of UNIX accessibility is to > > foster the development of a rich accessibility ecosystem - and a rich > > ecosystem has room for multiple approaches to similar problems (cf. Orca > > and Gnopernicus and LSR). > > > > I have no issues with #1 - I see no reason why an on-screen keyboard > > cannot have its own way of making certain modifiers sticky on its own > > user interface *without* doing so through the system-wide setting > > mechanisms. Such a decision is I think a valid user-interface policy > > decision of an individual application. > > > > However, it is a direct Section 508 violation for an application to > > override or ignore system-wide accessibility settings. It is even more > > egregious for an application that claims to be at least in part for > > people with disabilities (and thus an 'enlightened' application) to do so. > > > > > > So, my suggestion is that if you simply cannot possible use the > > system-settings for sticky keys as part of your own UI, that you make > > things sticky your own way; however that if the system-wide settings are > > on that you use and respect those (complete with the dialog box that you > > seem to dislike). > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Peter Korn > > Accessibility Architect, > > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > > > > >> But this very same thing makes it very awkward who want sticky keys on > >> the keyboard and non-sticky on a physical. Which would be true for > >> all non-a11y users and some a11y users. > >> > >> In the end though the only manner it interferes with my keyboard is > >> the annoying dialogue that pops up, and the average gnome-ally user > >> will probably be plenty used to seeing annoying dialogs anyway. > >> > >> The slow keys dialogue however is another matter though. Normal > >> operations are not resumed until it is dismissed. Which in itself > >> incredibly annoying. > >> > >> When planning the SOK I wanted to stay away from the three odd dialogs > >> that GOK pops up when it is started. The plain fact is I don't want > >> any dialogs when starting SOK. At all. > >> > >> Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > >> dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > >> unacceptable. > >> > >> On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > >> > >> > >>> On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> Chris Jones wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> ... > >>>>> > >>>>> In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > >>>>> for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > >>>>> SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > >>>>> fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> Chris, > >>>> > >>>> Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the > >>>> state internally in SOK? IOW: > >>>> > >>>> > >>> We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. > >>> It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build > >>> an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use > >>> it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. > >>> > >>> If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key > >>> while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is > >>> inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a > >>> problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock > >>> status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you > >>> want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. > >>> > >>> google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's > >>> section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. > >>> > >>> regards > >>> > >>> Bill > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked > >>>> SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. > >>>> > >>>> 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time > >>>> the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift > >>>> is clicked again you unset the flag. > >>>> > >>>> That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an > >>>> 'accessibility violation'. > >>>> > >>>> Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? > >>>> > >>>> - Henrik > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > >>>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > >>>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Tue Jun 27 07:39:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FE523B00B3 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 07:39:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26317-07 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 07:39:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36A743B0008 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 07:39:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5RBdWO3020902 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 05:39:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1I00401O8QXW@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:39:32 +0100 (BST) Received: from dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM (dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM [129.156.226.143]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1I00FEIODV70@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:39:32 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:40:44 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech In-reply-to: <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> To: Olivier BERT Message-id: <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.504 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.094, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.504 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:39:41 -0000 On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 10:57, Olivier BERT wrote: > > I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This > > bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher > > offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, Does Speech Dispatcher support something other than Festival now? Gnome-speech has support for quite a few speech engines including some commercial ones with much clearer speech. Unfortunately one of the best values and clearest sounding options, 'Theta' from Cepstral, has been obsoleted by the new Cepstral Swift engine; we need someone to port the Theta support over the Cepstral. While free voices and engines are really important, for some users clarity of speech is paramount, so it's important to have support for at least the less expensive non-free TTS engines. I don't have any objection to using Speech Dispatcher as a common back-end, if there are more resources available to keep it up to date compared to gnome-speech. But we shouldn't move over entirely until we have comparable driver support. One area where Speech Dispatcher seems to be ahead is in support for non-English Festival voices, but I think that testing is the only impediment to using the non-Engish voices in gnome-speech as well (the Festival API is the same in either case). regards Bill > this > > may be essential for some people and the Orca -> Gnome Speech -> Speech > > Dispatcher -> synthesizer aproach has inherent problems. This might > > solve your problem too. > > > > Please, see also the common "TTS API" draft at > > http://www.freebsoft.org/tts-api. This is a common effort of Free > > Desktop and FSG. > > Very very good idea. > Unfortunately, gnome-speech was not very stable, sometimes speech > randomly stops. > And it's true that it will optimize the speech chain. orca -> gnome > speech -> speech-dispatcher -> synthesis was quite long :) And so, it > must be nearly impossible to debug it. > > So thanks very much Tomas for this work ! > -- > Olivier BERT > e-mail: obert01@mistigri.org > Etudiant a l'E.P.I.T.A. (cycle ingenieur, 3eme annee) > Tel: 06 07 69 79 71 > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From wvdwalt@csir.co.za Tue Jun 27 07:55:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 687933B009B for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 07:55:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26868-08 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 07:54:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apollo.csir.co.za (mx-4.csir.co.za [146.64.10.99]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 698433B0011 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 07:54:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([146.64.19.125]) by apollo.csir.co.za (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k5RBrpgB010902; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:53:51 +0200 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k5RBohn3013165; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:50:43 +0200 Received: from localhost (wvdwalt@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) with ESMTP id k5RBohUb013155; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:50:43 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: wvdwalt owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:50:43 +0200 (SAST) From: Willem van der Walt X-X-Sender: wvdwalt@localhost.localdomain To: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech In-Reply-To: <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> Message-ID: References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-CSIR-MailScanner-Information: Please contact sys-admin at csir dot co dot za for more information X-CSIR-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: wvdwalt@csir.co.za X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.555 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.044, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.555 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:55:00 -0000 Speech-dispatcher has support for the DECTalk Software speech and Viavoice/TTSynth. It also has a generic module through which one can make it work using any synthesizer that can take text on the command-line and speak it. Speech-dispatcher is very stable, even when using an unstable generic synthesizer. Although the generic module has some limits, in practice, it works well. HTH, Willem On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Bill Haneman wrote: > On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 10:57, Olivier BERT wrote: >>> I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This >>> bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher >>> offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, > > Does Speech Dispatcher support something other than Festival now? > Gnome-speech has support for quite a few speech engines including some > commercial ones with much clearer speech. Unfortunately one of the best > values and clearest sounding options, 'Theta' from Cepstral, has been > obsoleted by the new Cepstral Swift engine; we need someone to port the > Theta support over the Cepstral. > > While free voices and engines are really important, for some users > clarity of speech is paramount, so it's important to have support for at > least the less expensive non-free TTS engines. > > I don't have any objection to using Speech Dispatcher as a common > back-end, if there are more resources available to keep it up to date > compared to gnome-speech. But we shouldn't move over entirely until we > have comparable driver support. One area where Speech Dispatcher seems > to be ahead is in support for non-English Festival voices, but I think > that testing is the only impediment to using the non-Engish voices in > gnome-speech as well (the Festival API is the same in either case). > > regards > > Bill > >> this >>> may be essential for some people and the Orca -> Gnome Speech -> Speech >>> Dispatcher -> synthesizer aproach has inherent problems. This might >>> solve your problem too. >>> >>> Please, see also the common "TTS API" draft at >>> http://www.freebsoft.org/tts-api. This is a common effort of Free >>> Desktop and FSG. >> >> Very very good idea. >> Unfortunately, gnome-speech was not very stable, sometimes speech >> randomly stops. >> And it's true that it will optimize the speech chain. orca -> gnome >> speech -> speech-dispatcher -> synthesis was quite long :) And so, it >> must be nearly impossible to debug it. >> >> So thanks very much Tomas for this work ! >> -- >> Olivier BERT >> e-mail: obert01@mistigri.org >> Etudiant a l'E.P.I.T.A. (cycle ingenieur, 3eme annee) >> Tel: 06 07 69 79 71 >> _______________________________________________ >> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > -- This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright, terms and conditions and e-mail legal notice. Views expressed herein do not necessarily represent the views of the CSIR. CSIR E-mail Legal Notice http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_eMail_Legal_Notice.html CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_Copyright.html For electronic copies of the CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions and the CSIR Legal Notice send a blank message with REQUEST LEGAL in the subject line to HelpDesk@csir.co.za. This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. MailScanner thanks Transtec Computers for their support. From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Tue Jun 27 08:26:59 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 454083B0072 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:26:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28277-08 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:26:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Sun.COM [192.18.98.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E8F03B0012 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:26:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5RCPnX2015364 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 06:26:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1I00K01PZQJ4@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:17:46 +0100 (BST) Received: from dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM (dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM [129.156.226.143]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1I00FBPQ5670@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:17:30 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:18:42 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech In-reply-to: To: Willem van der Walt Message-id: <1151410722.7842.27.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.507 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.091, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.507 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:26:59 -0000 Hi Willem: That's good news about the DECTalk and TTSynth support. If we could get a Cepstral/Swift module as well, I think we'd have the major synths covered. Perhaps the gnome-speech FreeTTS code could be ported to the SpeechDispatcher API someday, to give us two free engines (especially now that Java licensing is more acceptable to free distros). I suspect the 'generic module' may not work well for screen readers because of the need for speech markers or at least "end of speech" notification, but it's still useful for some things of course. regards Bill On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 12:50, Willem van der Walt wrote: > Speech-dispatcher has support for the DECTalk Software speech and > Viavoice/TTSynth. It also has a generic module through which one can make > it work using any synthesizer that can take text on the command-line and > speak it. > Speech-dispatcher is very stable, even when using an unstable generic > synthesizer. > Although the generic module has some limits, in practice, it works well. > HTH, Willem > > On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Bill Haneman wrote: > > > On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 10:57, Olivier BERT wrote: > >>> I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This > >>> bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher > >>> offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, > > > > Does Speech Dispatcher support something other than Festival now? > > Gnome-speech has support for quite a few speech engines including some > > commercial ones with much clearer speech. Unfortunately one of the best > > values and clearest sounding options, 'Theta' from Cepstral, has been > > obsoleted by the new Cepstral Swift engine; we need someone to port the > > Theta support over the Cepstral. > > > > While free voices and engines are really important, for some users > > clarity of speech is paramount, so it's important to have support for at > > least the less expensive non-free TTS engines. > > > > I don't have any objection to using Speech Dispatcher as a common > > back-end, if there are more resources available to keep it up to date > > compared to gnome-speech. But we shouldn't move over entirely until we > > have comparable driver support. One area where Speech Dispatcher seems > > to be ahead is in support for non-English Festival voices, but I think > > that testing is the only impediment to using the non-Engish voices in > > gnome-speech as well (the Festival API is the same in either case). > > > > regards > > > > Bill > > > >> this > >>> may be essential for some people and the Orca -> Gnome Speech -> Speech > >>> Dispatcher -> synthesizer aproach has inherent problems. This might > >>> solve your problem too. > >>> > >>> Please, see also the common "TTS API" draft at > >>> http://www.freebsoft.org/tts-api. This is a common effort of Free > >>> Desktop and FSG. > >> > >> Very very good idea. > >> Unfortunately, gnome-speech was not very stable, sometimes speech > >> randomly stops. > >> And it's true that it will optimize the speech chain. orca -> gnome > >> speech -> speech-dispatcher -> synthesis was quite long :) And so, it > >> must be nearly impossible to debug it. > >> > >> So thanks very much Tomas for this work ! > >> -- > >> Olivier BERT > >> e-mail: obert01@mistigri.org > >> Etudiant a l'E.P.I.T.A. (cycle ingenieur, 3eme annee) > >> Tel: 06 07 69 79 71 > >> _______________________________________________ > >> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > >> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > -- > This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright, terms and conditions and > e-mail legal notice. Views expressed herein do not necessarily represent the > views of the CSIR. > > CSIR E-mail Legal Notice > http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_eMail_Legal_Notice.html > > CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions > http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_Copyright.html > > For electronic copies of the CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions and the CSIR > Legal Notice send a blank message with REQUEST LEGAL in the subject line to > HelpDesk@csir.co.za. > > > This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, > and is believed to be clean. MailScanner thanks Transtec Computers for their support. > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From wvdwalt@csir.co.za Tue Jun 27 08:38:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DDF33B0011 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:38:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28814-05 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:38:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apollo.csir.co.za (mx-4.csir.co.za [146.64.10.99]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2CFD3B0072 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:38:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([146.64.19.125]) by apollo.csir.co.za (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k5RCaUHp001391; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:36:30 +0200 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k5RCXMJn028019; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:33:22 +0200 Received: from localhost (wvdwalt@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) with ESMTP id k5RCXM19028011; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:33:22 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: wvdwalt owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:33:22 +0200 (SAST) From: Willem van der Walt X-X-Sender: wvdwalt@localhost.localdomain To: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech In-Reply-To: <1151410722.7842.27.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> Message-ID: References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> <1151410722.7842.27.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-CSIR-MailScanner-Information: Please contact sys-admin at csir dot co dot za for more information X-CSIR-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: wvdwalt@csir.co.za X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.559 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.040, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.559 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:38:34 -0000 Speech-dispatcher in general works well with screen readers. I am using it with its generic module as I am writing this email. It stops speech by killing the command-line program that is executed by the generic module. This works better than one would expect. When testing Orca or Gnopernicus, I these days always use the speech-dispatcher driver in gnome-speech to drive a synth through the generic speech-dispatcher module. As I recall, Swift also has some command-line program that can say a phrase or two, so it should be relativly easy to make that work also. Regards, Willem On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Bill Haneman wrote: > Hi Willem: > > That's good news about the DECTalk and TTSynth support. If we could get > a Cepstral/Swift module as well, I think we'd have the major synths > covered. Perhaps the gnome-speech FreeTTS code could be ported to the > SpeechDispatcher API someday, to give us two free engines (especially > now that Java licensing is more acceptable to free distros). > > I suspect the 'generic module' may not work well for screen readers > because of the need for speech markers or at least "end of speech" > notification, but it's still useful for some things of course. > > regards > > Bill > > On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 12:50, Willem van der Walt wrote: >> Speech-dispatcher has support for the DECTalk Software speech and >> Viavoice/TTSynth. It also has a generic module through which one can make >> it work using any synthesizer that can take text on the command-line and >> speak it. >> Speech-dispatcher is very stable, even when using an unstable generic >> synthesizer. >> Although the generic module has some limits, in practice, it works well. >> HTH, Willem >> >> On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Bill Haneman wrote: >> >>> On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 10:57, Olivier BERT wrote: >>>>> I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This >>>>> bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher >>>>> offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, >>> >>> Does Speech Dispatcher support something other than Festival now? >>> Gnome-speech has support for quite a few speech engines including some >>> commercial ones with much clearer speech. Unfortunately one of the best >>> values and clearest sounding options, 'Theta' from Cepstral, has been >>> obsoleted by the new Cepstral Swift engine; we need someone to port the >>> Theta support over the Cepstral. >>> >>> While free voices and engines are really important, for some users >>> clarity of speech is paramount, so it's important to have support for at >>> least the less expensive non-free TTS engines. >>> >>> I don't have any objection to using Speech Dispatcher as a common >>> back-end, if there are more resources available to keep it up to date >>> compared to gnome-speech. But we shouldn't move over entirely until we >>> have comparable driver support. One area where Speech Dispatcher seems >>> to be ahead is in support for non-English Festival voices, but I think >>> that testing is the only impediment to using the non-Engish voices in >>> gnome-speech as well (the Festival API is the same in either case). >>> >>> regards >>> >>> Bill >>> >>>> this >>>>> may be essential for some people and the Orca -> Gnome Speech -> Speech >>>>> Dispatcher -> synthesizer aproach has inherent problems. This might >>>>> solve your problem too. >>>>> >>>>> Please, see also the common "TTS API" draft at >>>>> http://www.freebsoft.org/tts-api. This is a common effort of Free >>>>> Desktop and FSG. >>>> >>>> Very very good idea. >>>> Unfortunately, gnome-speech was not very stable, sometimes speech >>>> randomly stops. >>>> And it's true that it will optimize the speech chain. orca -> gnome >>>> speech -> speech-dispatcher -> synthesis was quite long :) And so, it >>>> must be nearly impossible to debug it. >>>> >>>> So thanks very much Tomas for this work ! >>>> -- >>>> Olivier BERT >>>> e-mail: obert01@mistigri.org >>>> Etudiant a l'E.P.I.T.A. (cycle ingenieur, 3eme annee) >>>> Tel: 06 07 69 79 71 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >>>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >>>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >>> >> >> -- >> This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright, terms and conditions and >> e-mail legal notice. Views expressed herein do not necessarily represent the >> views of the CSIR. >> >> CSIR E-mail Legal Notice >> http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_eMail_Legal_Notice.html >> >> CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions >> http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_Copyright.html >> >> For electronic copies of the CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions and the CSIR >> Legal Notice send a blank message with REQUEST LEGAL in the subject line to >> HelpDesk@csir.co.za. >> >> >> This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, >> and is believed to be clean. MailScanner thanks Transtec Computers for their support. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > -- This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright, terms and conditions and e-mail legal notice. Views expressed herein do not necessarily represent the views of the CSIR. CSIR E-mail Legal Notice http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_eMail_Legal_Notice.html CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_Copyright.html For electronic copies of the CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions and the CSIR Legal Notice send a blank message with REQUEST LEGAL in the subject line to HelpDesk@csir.co.za. This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. MailScanner thanks Transtec Computers for their support. From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Tue Jun 27 11:04:08 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C04763B0012 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:04:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04869-01 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:04:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.199]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9A9F3B0133 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:04:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 13so238241nzn for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.22.68 with SMTP id z68mr4475507nzi; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.73.15 with HTTP; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:03:35 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-Reply-To: <1151405912.7083.13.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> <44A07CB2.4090808@sun.com> <44A07EEC.1050109@sun.com> <1151405912.7083.13.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.494 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.093, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.494 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:04:08 -0000 "The very same thing" refers to where you say that disabled users will complain if the onscreen keyboard conflicts with sticky keys. What I am trying to say is that an onscreen keyboard should work whether sticky keys is on or not. Surely an application changing system wide settings just so it can run, is an accessibility violation as the user might rely on non-sticky behaviour on the physical keyboard. In other words one input device should not change the behaviour of all the others. You keep referring to xkblib. To get this to work I would have to change the x config to have an extra keyboard device. The XTest api I am currently using does not allow me to specify which keyboard device I am emulating either. I have difficulty seeing how I could use this. I understand the need for the dialogs. If the system-wide settings are changing then I agree a dialog is needed. This is yet another reason why I do not want to change the system wide settings. I can see why GOK behaves as it does. My opinion though is that it is not acceptable, another method must be found to solve the issue. Bill Haneman said: >Bear in mind that ANY onscreen keyboard that uses the mouse will fail to >work properly when used to pop up menus, etc. via keyboard navigation, >because of system toolkit pointer grabs. Are you aware of that fact? >It will strike your onscreen keyboard as well. This is the reason for >GOK's somewhat brittle configuration requirements, and the reason you >are warned not to use GOK via the system core pointer. I find this difficult to understand, surely pop up menus are a pointer operation to begin with, and that it is possible to emulate this with a physical keyboard. I fail to see the point of emulating this emulation with a pointer. Except if one was using a pointer to emulate a scanning device. Perhaps it would make more sense to disconnect the core pointer when GOK enters it's scanning mode? Maybe it is just impossible to design a one-size fits all onscreen keyboard. As evidenced by GOK, the result is a keyboard that is accessible to everyone but usable by no-one. On 27/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 01:42, Peter Korn wrote: > > Hi Chris, > > > > One more thing. You write: > > > > > Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > > > dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > > > unacceptable. > > > > Have you filed an RFE on this issue (seeking a way to invoke the > > system-wide Sticky-Keys functionality programatically without the user > > dialog box), > > This is trivial to do. If you modify the key via gconf API, either by > linking to gconf or just spawning a gconftool-2 command line, then you > can change these settings without triggering the warning dialogs. If > this has somehow regressed (it has worked on every system I know of, for > several years), then a bug needs to be filed. > > Billy > > > or are you simply trying to "work around it"? I would hope > > that part of a SoC project is to at least file bugs/RFEs for things you > > want, even if you "work around them" for the purposes of meeting a > > project deadline. I would hope that filing bugs/RFEs is part of the > > purview of SoC projects. > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Peter Korn > > Accessibility Architect, > > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > > > > Hi Chris, > > > > > > I think there are two issues here. Well, three: > > > > > > 1. Can an on-screen keyboard implement "sticky" modifiers without using > > > the system support for sticky modifiers? > > > 2. Can an on-screen keyboard circumvent/disable the system support for > > > sticky modifiers (and slow keys, and...)? > > > 3. Is the right way to "fix" what is "broken" in GOK doing another > > > project rather than working with the existing GOK code to "fix" those > > > "broken" things? > > > > > > I suggest that #3 may be somewhat religious at this point; I'm > > > personally saddened that we aren't at least looking seriously at GOK > > > improvements, but fundamentally a goal of UNIX accessibility is to > > > foster the development of a rich accessibility ecosystem - and a rich > > > ecosystem has room for multiple approaches to similar problems (cf. Orca > > > and Gnopernicus and LSR). > > > > > > I have no issues with #1 - I see no reason why an on-screen keyboard > > > cannot have its own way of making certain modifiers sticky on its own > > > user interface *without* doing so through the system-wide setting > > > mechanisms. Such a decision is I think a valid user-interface policy > > > decision of an individual application. > > > > > > However, it is a direct Section 508 violation for an application to > > > override or ignore system-wide accessibility settings. It is even more > > > egregious for an application that claims to be at least in part for > > > people with disabilities (and thus an 'enlightened' application) to do so. > > > > > > > > > So, my suggestion is that if you simply cannot possible use the > > > system-settings for sticky keys as part of your own UI, that you make > > > things sticky your own way; however that if the system-wide settings are > > > on that you use and respect those (complete with the dialog box that you > > > seem to dislike). > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Peter Korn > > > Accessibility Architect, > > > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > > > > > > > >> But this very same thing makes it very awkward who want sticky keys on > > >> the keyboard and non-sticky on a physical. Which would be true for > > >> all non-a11y users and some a11y users. > > >> > > >> In the end though the only manner it interferes with my keyboard is > > >> the annoying dialogue that pops up, and the average gnome-ally user > > >> will probably be plenty used to seeing annoying dialogs anyway. > > >> > > >> The slow keys dialogue however is another matter though. Normal > > >> operations are not resumed until it is dismissed. Which in itself > > >> incredibly annoying. > > >> > > >> When planning the SOK I wanted to stay away from the three odd dialogs > > >> that GOK pops up when it is started. The plain fact is I don't want > > >> any dialogs when starting SOK. At all. > > >> > > >> Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > > >> dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > > >> unacceptable. > > >> > > >> On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >>> On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>> Chris Jones wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>> ... > > >>>>> > > >>>>> In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > > >>>>> for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > > >>>>> SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > > >>>>> fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>> Chris, > > >>>> > > >>>> Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the > > >>>> state internally in SOK? IOW: > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. > > >>> It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build > > >>> an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use > > >>> it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. > > >>> > > >>> If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key > > >>> while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is > > >>> inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a > > >>> problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock > > >>> status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you > > >>> want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. > > >>> > > >>> google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's > > >>> section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. > > >>> > > >>> regards > > >>> > > >>> Bill > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>> 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked > > >>>> SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. > > >>>> > > >>>> 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time > > >>>> the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift > > >>>> is clicked again you unset the flag. > > >>>> > > >>>> That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an > > >>>> 'accessibility violation'. > > >>>> > > >>>> Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? > > >>>> > > >>>> - Henrik > > >>>> > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > >>>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > >>>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From hanke@brailcom.org Tue Jun 27 11:06:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3773D3B0106 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:06:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05080-01 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:06:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp-out4.iol.cz (smtp-out4.iol.cz [194.228.2.92]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 844FA3B00E2 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:06:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from antivir4.iol.cz (avir4 [192.168.30.209]) by smtp-out4.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id E011A743C2 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:06:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (antivir4.iol.cz [127.0.0.1]) by antivir4.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id CADA6240024 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:06:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp-out4.iol.cz (smtp-out-4.iplanet.iol.cz [192.168.30.31]) by antivir4.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88F7C240021 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:06:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.36] (77.93.broadband2.iol.cz [83.208.93.77]) by smtp-out4.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14E2622AF58 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:06:09 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech From: Hynek Hanke To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:04:37 +0200 Message-Id: <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at iol.cz X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.464 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.464 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:06:46 -0000 Hello, I'd like to address a few points. * First, as we discussed on accessibility@freedesktop.org (if someone is not subscribed, you are welcome to join), we want to create a new API to access speech synthesis. This shouldn't be looked at as "yet-another" speech API. Rather, we did some prototypes in Gnome Speech, Speech Dispatcher and KTTSD and found some dead ends and some new requirements. Also, in the Speech Dispatcher especially we found the most clean way to proceed forwards is to split it into two separate parts: one message handling and prioritization and the second interface with speech engines. So with a fresh mind, several people were working on putting down our common (Brailcom projects, Speakup, Gnome, KDE) requirements on such speech API. This document is fairly complete by now and we are at the point when we are starting implementation. The most beneficial way how to contribute to speech synthesis support right now is to help with TTS API and when the infrastructure is in place, develop modules for TTS API. (Not that we will rewrite all modules, I already know the existing Dispatcher modules will require only minor modifications in short term.) This doesn't address the problem of how Gnome applications should interface with it. Either Gnome Speech could be modified to use TTS API or the applications go through some other tool like Speech Dispatcher. I think an Orca module for Speech Dispatcher makes very much sense. An important thing is that both projects are desktop independent. * Another thing several people asked were dates. As for the Orca module for Dispatcher, Tomas already answered the question. The TTS API implementation we hope to have finished in time for the KDE developers to connect KTTS with Speech Dispatcher for KDE4. Also, next major Speech Dispatcher release will already work on top of TTS API and several major improvements will be made to its interface (SSIP). Of course, this is all hopes. * Enrico suggested we should use Festival C API instead of talking to it via TCP. Also Olivier mentioned the whole chain to be too long and source of troubles. However, I suspect the problem is not in the chain being too long as much as in both Festival and Gnome Speech lacking proper detailed logs. In Speech Dispatcher we also use Festival via TCP (actually Gnome Speech doesn't, it runs the binary) and to my experience, this is a good advantage for debugging. It is very easy to log the communication with Festival, so for the developer it is easy to see what went wrong if something does. It is also easy to send very informative bug reports. Also, we have found the connection randomly crashes for no apparent reason. It is indeed far better if we can just detect it, log it and create a new connection and reset the parameters automatically (as we do now) than if such a crash would bring down the whole module (if we were using the C API) for no clear reason. (Another one: in the current version of Dispatcher, sometimes a very mysterious segfault happens. I suspect this has something to do with ALSA, but it is very hard to tell as we link ALSA directly and the crash is not reproducible in testing circumstances...) Now, one of the big problems is that Festival doesn't offer proper logs. It would often refuse connection for a stupid typo in the configuration file and not give any clue to the user. This is something which should be fixed. * The generic output module proved to be very useful. But I must object to the claim that it can do mostly everything. It can talk and provide the basic level of synchronization information necessary for screen readers, but it doesn't support any more advanced things. Users don't notice with Speakup because Speakup doesn't use more advanced capabilities of the synthesizer, but you would surely very soon notice the difference with Festival in clients like speechd-el which use its full power. A native module is much better when someone does it. But TTS API will provide a generic module too and I already have a list of things which I'd like to improve. * I hope the Cepstrall/Swift and FreeTTS modules will be ported under TTS API eventually. At least this was the intention. Have an API that doesn't limit anyone and move everything there to a common code base which we can mantain together. Thanks for attention. I apologize for a long post. With regards, Hynek Hanke From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Tue Jun 27 11:23:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 778703B010A for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:23:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05508-07 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:22:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0D133B009B for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:22:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5RFMMn5028702 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 09:22:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1I00601YM47U@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:22:21 +0100 (BST) Received: from dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM (dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM [129.156.226.143]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1I007X7YP9BI@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:22:21 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:23:33 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: To: Chris Jones Message-id: <1151421813.7842.72.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> <44A07CB2.4090808@sun.com> <44A07EEC.1050109@sun.com> <1151405912.7083.13.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.51 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.088, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.51 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:23:00 -0000 On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 16:03, Chris Jones wrote: > "The very same thing" refers to where you say that disabled users will > complain if the onscreen keyboard conflicts with sticky keys. > > What I am trying to say is that an onscreen keyboard should work > whether sticky keys is on or not. By its very nature, an onscreen keyboard (which will be emulating physical keypresses) will interact with the physical keyboard driver and settings. This means that interoperability with things like XKB is just a requirement of the task at hand. > Surely an application changing system wide settings just so it can > run, is an accessibility violation as the user might rely on > non-sticky behaviour on the physical keyboard. In other words one > input device should not change the behaviour of all the others. I have suggested several alternatives. It is folly to create an onscreen keyboard which emulates physical keypresses and then pretend that it is independent of the physical keyboard - it's just not realistic, since you'll be using Xtest "Fake" API to fake key presses anyway. > You keep referring to xkblib. To get this to work I would have to > change the x config to have an extra keyboard device. That is not true! > The XTest api I > am currently using does not allow me to specify which keyboard device > I am emulating either. I have difficulty seeing how I could use this. Have you read the document section which I recommended to you? It allows you to programmatically change the latch state of specific modifiers, WITHOUT simulating a "press-and-hold". It allows you to do this in a way that does not change the way the physical keyboard works, and doesn't trigger any warning dialogs. XKB is available by default on the XOrg server, so you shouldn't need to change your X configuration at all. > I understand the need for the dialogs. If the system-wide settings > are changing then I agree a dialog is needed. This is yet another > reason why I do not want to change the system wide settings. The dialog does not post anytime the system-wide settings change - it only posts in response to a change which it believes comes from the SlowKeys or StickyKeys keyboard gesture. As long as your keyboard latches keys by simulating a key press and then simulating a release at a later time in the future, you will collide with this dialog, because you are invoking the SlowKeys gesture. Period. If you don't like that you can turn off the keyboard shortcuts, i.e. make it so that holding the shift key down doesn't turn on SlowKeys; however you should not make that the default for new users. > I can see why GOK behaves as it does. My opinion though is that it is > not acceptable, another method must be found to solve the issue. We'll be able to help you better if you are a little more open to our suggestions. Bill > Bill Haneman said: > > >Bear in mind that ANY onscreen keyboard that uses the mouse will fail to > >work properly when used to pop up menus, etc. via keyboard navigation, > >because of system toolkit pointer grabs. Are you aware of that fact? > >It will strike your onscreen keyboard as well. This is the reason for > >GOK's somewhat brittle configuration requirements, and the reason you > >are warned not to use GOK via the system core pointer. > > I find this difficult to understand, surely pop up menus are a pointer > operation to begin with, and that it is possible to emulate this with > a physical keyboard. I fail to see the point of emulating this > emulation with a pointer. Except if one was using a pointer to > emulate a scanning device. Perhaps it would make more sense to > disconnect the core pointer when GOK enters it's scanning mode? > > Maybe it is just impossible to design a one-size fits all onscreen > keyboard. As evidenced by GOK, the result is a keyboard that is > accessible to everyone but usable by no-one. > > > On 27/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 01:42, Peter Korn wrote: > > > Hi Chris, > > > > > > One more thing. You write: > > > > > > > Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > > > > dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > > > > unacceptable. > > > > > > Have you filed an RFE on this issue (seeking a way to invoke the > > > system-wide Sticky-Keys functionality programatically without the user > > > dialog box), > > > > This is trivial to do. If you modify the key via gconf API, either by > > linking to gconf or just spawning a gconftool-2 command line, then you > > can change these settings without triggering the warning dialogs. If > > this has somehow regressed (it has worked on every system I know of, for > > several years), then a bug needs to be filed. > > > > Billy > > > > > or are you simply trying to "work around it"? I would hope > > > that part of a SoC project is to at least file bugs/RFEs for things you > > > want, even if you "work around them" for the purposes of meeting a > > > project deadline. I would hope that filing bugs/RFEs is part of the > > > purview of SoC projects. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > Peter Korn > > > Accessibility Architect, > > > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > > > > > > Hi Chris, > > > > > > > > I think there are two issues here. Well, three: > > > > > > > > 1. Can an on-screen keyboard implement "sticky" modifiers without using > > > > the system support for sticky modifiers? > > > > 2. Can an on-screen keyboard circumvent/disable the system support for > > > > sticky modifiers (and slow keys, and...)? > > > > 3. Is the right way to "fix" what is "broken" in GOK doing another > > > > project rather than working with the existing GOK code to "fix" those > > > > "broken" things? > > > > > > > > I suggest that #3 may be somewhat religious at this point; I'm > > > > personally saddened that we aren't at least looking seriously at GOK > > > > improvements, but fundamentally a goal of UNIX accessibility is to > > > > foster the development of a rich accessibility ecosystem - and a rich > > > > ecosystem has room for multiple approaches to similar problems (cf. Orca > > > > and Gnopernicus and LSR). > > > > > > > > I have no issues with #1 - I see no reason why an on-screen keyboard > > > > cannot have its own way of making certain modifiers sticky on its own > > > > user interface *without* doing so through the system-wide setting > > > > mechanisms. Such a decision is I think a valid user-interface policy > > > > decision of an individual application. > > > > > > > > However, it is a direct Section 508 violation for an application to > > > > override or ignore system-wide accessibility settings. It is even more > > > > egregious for an application that claims to be at least in part for > > > > people with disabilities (and thus an 'enlightened' application) to do so. > > > > > > > > > > > > So, my suggestion is that if you simply cannot possible use the > > > > system-settings for sticky keys as part of your own UI, that you make > > > > things sticky your own way; however that if the system-wide settings are > > > > on that you use and respect those (complete with the dialog box that you > > > > seem to dislike). > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Peter Korn > > > > Accessibility Architect, > > > > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > > > > > > > > > > >> But this very same thing makes it very awkward who want sticky keys on > > > >> the keyboard and non-sticky on a physical. Which would be true for > > > >> all non-a11y users and some a11y users. > > > >> > > > >> In the end though the only manner it interferes with my keyboard is > > > >> the annoying dialogue that pops up, and the average gnome-ally user > > > >> will probably be plenty used to seeing annoying dialogs anyway. > > > >> > > > >> The slow keys dialogue however is another matter though. Normal > > > >> operations are not resumed until it is dismissed. Which in itself > > > >> incredibly annoying. > > > >> > > > >> When planning the SOK I wanted to stay away from the three odd dialogs > > > >> that GOK pops up when it is started. The plain fact is I don't want > > > >> any dialogs when starting SOK. At all. > > > >> > > > >> Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > > > >> dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > > > >> unacceptable. > > > >> > > > >> On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>> On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>> Chris Jones wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> ... > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > > > >>>>> for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > > > >>>>> SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > > > >>>>> fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> Chris, > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the > > > >>>> state internally in SOK? IOW: > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. > > > >>> It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build > > > >>> an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use > > > >>> it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. > > > >>> > > > >>> If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key > > > >>> while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is > > > >>> inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a > > > >>> problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock > > > >>> status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you > > > >>> want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. > > > >>> > > > >>> google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's > > > >>> section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. > > > >>> > > > >>> regards > > > >>> > > > >>> Bill > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>> 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked > > > >>>> SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time > > > >>>> the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift > > > >>>> is clicked again you unset the flag. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an > > > >>>> 'accessibility violation'. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? > > > >>>> > > > >>>> - Henrik > > > >>>> > > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > > >>>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > >>>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > >>>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > -- > Chris Jones > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From gk4@austin.ibm.com Tue Jun 27 14:30:28 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A72123B00D3 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:30:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12403-01 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:30:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e4.ny.us.ibm.com (e4.ny.us.ibm.com [32.97.182.144]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31DEC3B0110 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:30:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (d01relay04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.236]) by e4.ny.us.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5RITbHn001642 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:29:38 -0400 Received: from d01av02.pok.ibm.com (d01av02.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.216]) by d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (8.13.6/NCO/VER7.0) with ESMTP id k5RITbTm271228 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:29:37 -0400 Received: from d01av02.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av02.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k5RITbbJ011163 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:29:37 -0400 Received: from gk4.austin.ibm.com (gk4.austin.ibm.com [9.53.33.16]) by d01av02.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5RITaQf011141; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:29:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech From: George Kraft To: Hynek Hanke In-Reply-To: <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: IBM Corp Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:26:33 -0500 Message-Id: <1151432793.6050.13.camel@gk4.austin.ibm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 (2.0.2-3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.49 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.109, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.49 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: gk4@austin.ibm.com List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 18:30:28 -0000 On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 17:04 +0200, Hynek Hanke wrote: > talking to it via TCP. Are commercial TTS engines sufficiently isolated in this new TTS API proposal? With respect to licensing, can DECtalk and TTSynth be successfully linked to and be used? gnome-speech is providing a nice abstraction. -- George (gk4) From hanke@brailcom.org Tue Jun 27 15:58:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22F743B00A6 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:58:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15469-10 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:58:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp-out3.iol.cz (smtp-out3.iol.cz [194.228.2.91]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 862C93B009F for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:58:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from antivir3.iol.cz (avir3 [192.168.30.206]) by smtp-out3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8F53682A3; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:35:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (antivir3.iol.cz [127.0.0.1]) by antivir3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB58E42000A; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:35:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp-out3.iol.cz (smtp-out-3.iplanet.iol.cz [192.168.30.28]) by antivir3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 909D1420006; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:35:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.36] (77.93.broadband2.iol.cz [83.208.93.77]) by smtp-out3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A9583BEE5; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:35:53 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech From: Hynek Hanke To: gk4@austin.ibm.com In-Reply-To: <1151432793.6050.13.camel@gk4.austin.ibm.com> References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> <1151432793.6050.13.camel@gk4.austin.ibm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:34:24 +0200 Message-Id: <1151436865.3550.6.camel@chopin> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at iol.cz X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.464 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.464 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gap X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:58:48 -0000 George Kraft píše v Út 27. 06. 2006 v 13:26 -0500: > On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 17:04 +0200, Hynek Hanke wrote: > > talking to it via TCP. > Are commercial TTS engines sufficiently isolated in this new TTS API > proposal? With respect to licensing, can DECtalk and TTSynth be > successfully linked to and be used? I'm not sure what is the question exactly? The modules inside the TTS API implementation we are working on are supposed to run as separate processes for licensing reason and for the reason of stability. This however has little to do with the way how interfacing between the module and the synthesizer is done. Also, the paragraph of which you quote a part of a sentence had nothing to do with TTS API nor with DECtalk or TTSynth in my previous post. > gnome-speech is providing a nice abstraction. I'm sorry, I do not understand. Could you please explain? With regards, Hynek Hanke From gk4@austin.ibm.com Tue Jun 27 17:35:38 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE7F43B00D3 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:35:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18161-03 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:35:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e5.ny.us.ibm.com (e5.ny.us.ibm.com [32.97.182.145]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4C563B009D for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:35:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (d01relay02.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.234]) by e5.ny.us.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5RLY8rN016556 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:34:08 -0400 Received: from d01av02.pok.ibm.com (d01av02.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.216]) by d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (8.13.6/NCO/VER7.0) with ESMTP id k5RLXJwK261560 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:33:19 -0400 Received: from d01av02.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av02.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k5RLXIPG001437 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:33:19 -0400 Received: from gk4.austin.ibm.com (gk4.austin.ibm.com [9.53.33.16]) by d01av02.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5RLXIUu001410; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:33:18 -0400 Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech From: George Kraft To: Hynek Hanke In-Reply-To: <1151436865.3550.6.camel@chopin> References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> <1151432793.6050.13.camel@gk4.austin.ibm.com> <1151436865.3550.6.camel@chopin> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: IBM Corp Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:30:14 -0500 Message-Id: <1151443815.6050.42.camel@gk4.austin.ibm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 (2.0.2-3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.499 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.499 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: gk4@austin.ibm.com List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:35:39 -0000 On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 21:34 +0200, Hynek Hanke wrote: > The modules inside the TTS > API implementation we are working on are supposed to run as separate > processes for licensing reason and for the reason of stability. You answered my malformed question. :-) Thanks. George (gk4) From enrico@enricozini.org Tue Jun 27 19:24:26 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD1B13B002A for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:24:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20951-10 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:24:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agnus.ngi.it (agnus.ngi.it [88.149.128.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B51343B006D for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:24:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (81-174-12-206.f5.ngi.it [81.174.12.206]) by agnus.ngi.it (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5RMH2rG021881 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 00:17:03 +0200 Received: from enrico by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FvL1W-0006Xm-74 for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 22:23:06 +0100 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 22:23:06 +0100 From: Enrico Zini To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech Message-ID: <20060627212306.GA24644@viaza> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ibTvN161/egqYuK8" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060403 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.68 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.774, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.558] X-Spam-Score: -1.68 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 23:24:27 -0000 --ibTvN161/egqYuK8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jun 27, 2006 at 05:04:37PM +0200, Hynek Hanke wrote: > * Enrico suggested we should use Festival C API instead of talking > to it via TCP. Also Olivier mentioned the whole chain to be too long and > source of troubles. However, I suspect the problem is not in the chain > being too long as much as in both Festival and Gnome Speech lacking > proper detailed logs. The problem that I've found in the Festival C API is that you cannot have reliable is_speaking testing / end-of-speech notification. Details: Festival can run in two modes: (audio_mode 'sync) or (audio_mode 'async). In sync mode, a (SayText "...") command would block the entire festival engine until the phrase has been fully spoken. That rules out being able to interrupt the speaking, so we don't want it. In async mode, festival runs an audio spooler called audsp as external process, then does the TTS converting text into waveforms, saves the waveforms in a file under /tmp [shivers] and tells audsp to play that file. audsp keeps listening to the pipe while playing, and supports commands like "wait until everything has been spoken" or "interrupt speaking and reset the queue". The communication protocol between festival and audsp is basically one-way, and there's currently no way for audsp to push info back to festival. This makes it impossible to notify that a wave has finished playing. There is also currently no way to ask if audsp is currently playing something or not. Festival is free software, so this is of course fixable. Having looked at the code, it's simple code and it wouldn't break if it'd be stretched a bit. But that's not improving a driver: that's improving festival (if the authors allow) and then having to depend on a very new version of it. So the proper way to implement a festival driver seems to me to use the text-to-wave function and then do a proper handling of playing the resulting wave, hopefully using the audio playing technology that's trendy at the moment. I looked into esd without understanding if it is trendy anymore, and I look at gstreamer without understanding if it isn't a bit too complicated as a default way to play a waveform. Also, not using audsp means that the festival driver wouldn't add another spawned process to keep track of. I don't know much about the APIs of other speech engines. If they all had a text-to-wave function, then it can be a wise move to implement a proper audio scheduler to share among TTS drivers, which could then (reliably) support proper integration with the audio system of the day, progress report, interruption and whatever else is needed. This would ensure that all TTS drivers would have the same (hopefully high) level of reliability wrt audio output. > Also, we have found the connection randomly crashes for no apparent > reason. It is indeed far better if we can just detect it, log it and > create a new connection and reset the parameters automatically (as we do > now) than if such a crash would bring down the whole module (if we were > using the C API) for no clear reason. (Another one: in the current > version of Dispatcher, sometimes a very mysterious segfault happens. > I suspect this has something to do with ALSA, but it is very hard to > tell as we link ALSA directly and the crash is not reproducible in > testing circumstances...) >=20 > Now, one of the big problems is that Festival doesn't offer proper logs. > It would often refuse connection for a stupid typo in the configuration > file and not give any clue to the user. This is something which should > be fixed. This can probably be fixed: festival can be told not to load any config file, and log can be implemented adding a couple of printfs before calls to the C++ API. And something like a TTS driver which becomes the main form of access to the computer should be designed to properly restart in case of segfaults in its own code, be it festival or whatever else. Ciao, Enrico --=20 GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini --ibTvN161/egqYuK8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEoaG59LSwzHl+v6sRAiE4AJ9EA6pT/x65pG8GVK8MHP1PWNaINQCeJOOO Xl+8CXjxfFSxfqqnM1uKRAs= =lEOy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ibTvN161/egqYuK8-- From enrico@enricozini.org Wed Jun 28 09:59:16 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A74633B017A; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:59:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14201-04; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:59:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agnus.ngi.it (agnus.ngi.it [88.149.128.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAA8D3B01E2; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:59:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (81-174-12-206.f5.ngi.it [81.174.12.206]) by agnus.ngi.it (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5SDwIwD028281; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:58:18 +0200 Received: from enrico by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FvaXC-000293-Dz; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:56:50 +0100 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:56:50 +0100 From: Enrico Zini To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Probably found the problem with the Italian synthesis Message-ID: <20060628135650.GA6628@viaza> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060403 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.017, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:59:16 -0000 --fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, might be around here: $ echo "Evviva il Per=C3=BA" | festival --tts --language english $ echo "Evviva il Per=C3=BA" | festival --tts --language finnish SIOD ERROR: damaged env : # $ echo "Evviva il Per=C3=BA" | festival --tts --language spanish $ echo "Evviva il Per=C3=BA" | festival --tts --language italian LTS_Ruleset italian_downcase: no rule matches: LTS_Ruleset: # P e r *here* =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD # $ =2E..especially when this comes out of the log of a crashed orca session: # grep SPEECH debug.out |tail SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Grafica menu' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Up' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Giochi menu' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Up' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Audio & Video menu' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Up' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Accessori menu' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Right' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Alacarte - Editor di men=C3=B9' I'll now try to work on it a bit. In the meantime, I patched audsp in festival to also report the currently playing sample in the playing list. This makes two useful patches that I should start to extract properly and send around, but my main priority is still having a long-lasting Italian speech experience. Ciao, Enrico --=20 GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini --fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEooqi9LSwzHl+v6sRAqtrAJ9y2yxCiWlh3jbH/nxrzqMVyCh9MACghPal qzCsGZJ+BpKwEwJ3zDeEXi8= =FyyJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N-- From hanke@brailcom.org Wed Jun 28 11:14:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B62293B01DE for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 11:14:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17406-01 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 11:14:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp-out3.iol.cz (smtp-out3.iol.cz [194.228.2.91]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E9BC3B0167 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 11:14:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from antivir3.iol.cz (avir3 [192.168.30.206]) by smtp-out3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C22AE81B0; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:12:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (antivir3.iol.cz [127.0.0.1]) by antivir3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E6AA42000C; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:12:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp-out3.iol.cz (smtp-out-3.iplanet.iol.cz [192.168.30.28]) by antivir3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E741420006; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:12:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.36] (77.93.broadband2.iol.cz [83.208.93.77]) by smtp-out3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0EA93BEDB; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:12:27 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech From: Hynek Hanke To: Enrico Zini In-Reply-To: <20060627212306.GA24644@viaza> References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> <20060627212306.GA24644@viaza> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:11:01 +0200 Message-Id: <1151507461.3478.51.camel@chopin> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at iol.cz X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.445 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.445 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:14:13 -0000 > Festival is free software, so this is of course fixable. Having looked > at the code, it's simple code and it wouldn't break if it'd be stretched > a bit. But that's not improving a driver: that's improving festival (if > the authors allow) and then having to depend on a very new version of > it. Hi Enrico, also the problem with speech engines doing their own audio output (apart from what you said about Festival) is that this audio output needs to be configured at several places if several engines are used, many places where code needs to be updated if a new audio technology comes etc. > [...] > So the proper way to implement a festival driver seems to me to use the > text-to-wave function and then do a proper handling of playing the > resulting wave, hopefully using the audio playing technology that's > trendy at the moment. Yes, I agree. Actually this is what both Speech Dispatcher and KTTSD are doing and I think I've heard Gnome Speech would also like to go this way in the future. > I looked into esd without understanding if it is > trendy anymore, and I look at gstreamer without understanding if it > isn't a bit too complicated as a default way to play a waveform. This is fairly complicated. I've investigated into possibilities for audio output and I've ended up sumarizing our requirements if such a technology should eventually come in the future and writing my own small library for output to OSS, Alsa and NAS. Please see http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/accessibility/2005-April/000049.html and feel free to have comments. One of the problems is the latency we need. That ruled out both ESD and Gstreamer at that time, I'm not sure what is the state now with Gstreamer. Another thing is that if we are aiming for a desktop independent speech technology, we need desktop independent audio output. > I don't know much about the APIs of other speech engines. If they all > had a text-to-wave function Most of the engines do. Some don't, but this is their drawback (what if I want to have the audio synthesized and save to a file?). As you said, it is very desirable to retrieve the audio for those engines that support it. > , then it can be a wise move to implement a > proper audio scheduler to share among TTS drivers, which could then > (reliably) support proper integration with the audio system of the day, > progress report, interruption and whatever else is needed. This would > ensure that all TTS drivers would have the same (hopefully high) level > of reliability wrt audio output. Yes, that is mine dream too! Would you be wiling to help with this? I think we would first have to see what is new and consider the options again. > > Now, one of the big problems is that Festival doesn't offer proper logs. > > It would often refuse connection for a stupid typo in the configuration > > file and not give any clue to the user. This is something which should > > be fixed. > This can probably be fixed: festival can be told not to load any config > file This is not really useful. Configuration is really needed. > , and log can be implemented adding a couple of printfs before calls > to the C++ API. That is the log from the side of the speech api provider (Gnome Speech etc.). This already exists in Dispatcher and as I said is automatic from a TCP API. I was talking about logs on the side of Festival. You will never be able to discover why a particular voice was not loaded/doesn't work, why a sound icon is not playing, what is the typo in your configuration files, why is it not finding a module (wrong path) and such from just talking to Festival via its API (be it C++ or TCP). Currently the only way for the users to fix such problems is to run Festival from command line and hope it will write some cryptic message to stderr. Then what is left are guesses, past experiences with problems and black magic. We must be able to diagnose problems. >> [from my earlier post] >> Now, one of the big problems is that Festival doesn't offer proper >> logs. You say you find the Festival C code clear and modifications not difficult. If this could be fixed, that would be superb. I don't think Alan would object to include the patch. And it would not introduce a dependency for us. I don't know however how soon it could get into some official release. But I think it is worth looking into. > And something like a TTS driver which becomes the main > form of access to the computer should be designed to properly restart in > case of segfaults in its own code, be it festival or whatever else. Yes, this is something we tried in Speech Dispatcher, but it doesn't always work. We should get this part right in TTS API. The objection that with the TCP API it is easier to see what part is crashing, after which commands exactly, however remains. With regards, Hynek Hanke From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Wed Jun 28 12:35:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8EC53B03F3 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:35:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21095-10 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:35:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 425753B02C2 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:35:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5SGZSpR001661 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 10:35:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1K00M01WMQ6S@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:35:28 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-9.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.9]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1K00D5UWR30M@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:35:28 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:36:40 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech In-reply-to: <1151507461.3478.51.camel@chopin> To: Hynek Hanke Message-id: <1151512600.7045.91.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> <20060627212306.GA24644@viaza> <1151507461.3478.51.camel@chopin> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Enrico Zini , gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:35:51 -0000 Hi Hynek, All: I'm not sure I agree that speech engines should not do their own audio output. While I think you have identified some real problems with that approach, it's not clear that the ".wav file" approach has a low enough latency. If tests show that latency is not a problem, then passing the synthesized audio bits to the driver for processing (perhaps via multiplexing/mixing in most situations, or for pre-emptive audio in others) does seem to have advantages. Hynek, I think you've also identified a good reason for one of the "many layers" in our architecture... we don't really want a bug in the speech engine to crash our TTS service. Using a C API, even when licenses permit, usually means sharing process space with the driver, and for many drivers the code is closed-source, making diagnosis and recovery very difficult indeed. In such a situation we probably need to implement the process-space separation in our own TTS architecture, so that we can restart the engine when things go badly wrong. regards Bill On Wed, 2006-06-28 at 16:11, Hynek Hanke wrote: > > Festival is free software, so this is of course fixable. Having looked > > at the code, it's simple code and it wouldn't break if it'd be stretched > > a bit. But that's not improving a driver: that's improving festival (if > > the authors allow) and then having to depend on a very new version of > > it. > > Hi Enrico, > > also the problem with speech engines doing their own audio output > (apart from what you said about Festival) is that this audio output > needs to be configured at several places if several engines are used, > many places where code needs to be updated if a new audio technology > comes etc. > > > [...] > > So the proper way to implement a festival driver seems to me to use the > > text-to-wave function and then do a proper handling of playing the > > resulting wave, hopefully using the audio playing technology that's > > trendy at the moment. > > Yes, I agree. Actually this is what both Speech Dispatcher and KTTSD are > doing and I think I've heard Gnome Speech would also like to go this way > in the future. > > > I looked into esd without understanding if it is > > trendy anymore, and I look at gstreamer without understanding if it > > isn't a bit too complicated as a default way to play a waveform. > > This is fairly complicated. I've investigated into possibilities for > audio output and I've ended up sumarizing our requirements if such a > technology should eventually come in the future and writing my own > small library for output to OSS, Alsa and NAS. Please see > http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/accessibility/2005-April/000049.html > and feel free to have comments. One of the problems is the latency we > need. That ruled out both ESD and Gstreamer at that time, I'm not sure > what is the state now with Gstreamer. Another thing is that if we are > aiming for a desktop independent speech technology, we need desktop > independent audio output. > > > I don't know much about the APIs of other speech engines. If they all > > had a text-to-wave function > > Most of the engines do. Some don't, but this is their drawback (what if > I want to have the audio synthesized and save to a file?). As you said, > it is very desirable to retrieve the audio for those engines that > support it. > > > , then it can be a wise move to implement a > > proper audio scheduler to share among TTS drivers, which could then > > (reliably) support proper integration with the audio system of the day, > > progress report, interruption and whatever else is needed. This would > > ensure that all TTS drivers would have the same (hopefully high) level > > of reliability wrt audio output. > > Yes, that is mine dream too! Would you be wiling to help with this? > I think we would first have to see what is new and consider the options > again. > > > > Now, one of the big problems is that Festival doesn't offer proper logs. > > > It would often refuse connection for a stupid typo in the configuration > > > file and not give any clue to the user. This is something which should > > > be fixed. > > This can probably be fixed: festival can be told not to load any config > > file > > This is not really useful. Configuration is really needed. > > > , and log can be implemented adding a couple of printfs before calls > > to the C++ API. > > That is the log from the side of the speech api provider (Gnome Speech > etc.). This already exists in Dispatcher and as I said is automatic from > a TCP API. I was talking about logs on the side of Festival. > > You will never be able to discover why a particular voice was not > loaded/doesn't work, why a sound icon is not playing, what is the typo > in your configuration files, why is it not finding a module (wrong path) > and such from just talking to Festival via its API (be it C++ or TCP). > > Currently the only way for the users to fix such problems is to run > Festival from command line and hope it will write some cryptic message > to stderr. Then what is left are guesses, past experiences with problems > and black magic. We must be able to diagnose problems. > > >> [from my earlier post] > >> Now, one of the big problems is that Festival doesn't offer proper > >> logs. > > You say you find the Festival C code clear and modifications not > difficult. If this could be fixed, that would be superb. I don't think > Alan would object to include the patch. And it would not introduce > a dependency for us. I don't know however how soon it could get > into some official release. But I think it is worth looking into. > > > And something like a TTS driver which becomes the main > > form of access to the computer should be designed to properly restart in > > case of segfaults in its own code, be it festival or whatever else. > > Yes, this is something we tried in Speech Dispatcher, but it doesn't > always work. We should get this part right in TTS API. The objection > that with the TCP API it is easier to see what part is crashing, after > which commands exactly, however remains. > > With regards, > Hynek Hanke > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Wed Jun 28 16:08:59 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B8E03B031A for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:08:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31786-04 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:08:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3FDC3B0511 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:08:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-05.sun.com ([192.18.39.115]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5SK8WXs001460 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-05.sun.com by d1-sfbay-05.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J1L006016EG9200@d1-sfbay-05.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.23.60] by d1-sfbay-05.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J1L00BY16M73330@d1-sfbay-05.sun.com>; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:08:29 -0700 From: Peter Korn Subject: Audio recordings from the CSUN Orca & Open Document Format Accessibility sessions now available Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: Gnome accessibility , FSG Accessibility , kde-accessibility@kde.org, accessibility@freedesktop.org, brltty@mielke.cc Message-id: <44A2E1BD.9010803@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.546 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.052, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.546 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:08:59 -0000 Greetings, After a bit of a delay, audio recordings of the two Orca sessions and the ODF Accessibility Panel are now available, for your listening pleasure. We have them up in Ogg Vorbis format (of course). Please see http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/korn/20060628 for details, links, etc. Thanks to Mike Paciello for securing copies of these recordings. Note: you can also view the video directly, through the TV Worldwide website (assuming you have a Windows system to do so...). Regards, Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Wed Jun 28 17:43:05 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 657283B00A3 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:43:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03179-02 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:43:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.207]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D9E03B00AE for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:43:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id n29so631932nzf for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.97.8 with SMTP id u8mr1894344nzb; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.73.15 with HTTP; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:43:03 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: docked window mode in GOk and SOK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.492 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.092, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.492 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:43:05 -0000 SOK is simple onscreen keyboard I am writing to compliment GOK. It is a summer of code project. I've been trying to implement a dock window mode for SOK like that which GOK has. Unfortunately my effort was met with a plethora of problems. Support for such docked windows is unpredictable under dual screens and can cause windows to get stuck or disappear etc. There's not much I can do about this but file bug reports. Attaching GOK or SOK to an edge which has a panel attached results in a focus "war" betwixt the two. I'm planning to work round this by reading the gconf keys for the panel and adjusting the placement of SOK accordingly. Does GOK have a solution in the pipeline? Can anyone think of a better way to go about this? -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Wed Jun 28 20:09:24 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 411C33B0139 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:09:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09072-04 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:09:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Sun.COM [192.18.98.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A1DD3B016E for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:09:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5T08v08022628 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 18:08:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1L00H01HBGZ1@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 01:08:57 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-116-57.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.116.57]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1L00BEBHQXD3@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 01:08:57 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 01:10:10 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: docked window mode in GOk and SOK In-reply-to: To: Chris Jones Message-id: <1151539810.7061.18.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.58 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.58 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 00:09:24 -0000 Hi Chris: There's no good solution to the "share a dock area" problem. We recommend that you don't use both top and bottom panels when running an onscreen keyboard, for this reason. The straightforward solution is to remove either the top or bottom panel, and then use that edge to dock your keyboard. Otherwise you could waste^^H^H^spend a lot of time trying to work around this. I don't believe there's any way to put multiple docks on one edge reliably unless those docks share code (this is how gnome-panel manages this), or some new IPC is invented whereby the docks can share info (and then you have to convince all the users of _NET_WM_STRUT to implement that IPC - good luck!). The existing X API for struts just doesn't accommodate this scenario. regards, Bill On Wed, 2006-06-28 at 22:43, Chris Jones wrote: > SOK is simple onscreen keyboard I am writing to compliment GOK. It is > a summer of code project. > > > I've been trying to implement a dock window mode for SOK like that > which GOK has. > > Unfortunately my effort was met with a plethora of problems. > > Support for such docked windows is unpredictable under dual screens > and can cause windows to get stuck or disappear etc. There's not much > I can do about this but file bug reports. > > Attaching GOK or SOK to an edge which has a panel attached results in > a focus "war" betwixt the two. I'm planning to work round this by > reading the gconf keys for the panel and adjusting the placement of > SOK accordingly. Does GOK have a solution in the pipeline? Can > anyone think of a better way to go about this? > > -- > Chris Jones > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Thu Jun 29 07:02:44 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A80A83B0078 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:02:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05708-04 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:02:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.198]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98E903B010A for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:02:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 8so140092nzo for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 04:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.140.2 with SMTP id n2mr2793650nzd; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 04:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.73.15 with HTTP; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 04:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:02:42 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: docked window mode in GOk and SOK In-Reply-To: <1151539810.7061.18.camel@linux.site> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1151539810.7061.18.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.492 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.092, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.492 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 11:02:44 -0000 Well I think it is possible to detect if the panel is running through dbus, and it's location is stored in gconf. This should be easy to implement. I've already tested it by hardcoding an offset, all that remains to do is reading the gconf values. I don't quite understand this apathy. No other part of the desktop would put up with such an annoying bug. I don't see why it is acceptable here. On 29/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > Hi Chris: > > There's no good solution to the "share a dock area" problem. We > recommend that you don't use both top and bottom panels when running an > onscreen keyboard, for this reason. > > The straightforward solution is to remove either the top or bottom > panel, and then use that edge to dock your keyboard. Otherwise you > could waste^^H^H^spend a lot of time trying to work around this. > > I don't believe there's any way to put multiple docks on one edge > reliably unless those docks share code (this is how gnome-panel manages > this), or some new IPC is invented whereby the docks can share info (and > then you have to convince all the users of _NET_WM_STRUT to implement > that IPC - good luck!). The existing X API for struts just doesn't > accommodate this scenario. > > > regards, > > Bill > > On Wed, 2006-06-28 at 22:43, Chris Jones wrote: > > SOK is simple onscreen keyboard I am writing to compliment GOK. It is > > a summer of code project. > > > > > > I've been trying to implement a dock window mode for SOK like that > > which GOK has. > > > > Unfortunately my effort was met with a plethora of problems. > > > > Support for such docked windows is unpredictable under dual screens > > and can cause windows to get stuck or disappear etc. There's not much > > I can do about this but file bug reports. > > > > Attaching GOK or SOK to an edge which has a panel attached results in > > a focus "war" betwixt the two. I'm planning to work round this by > > reading the gconf keys for the panel and adjusting the placement of > > SOK accordingly. Does GOK have a solution in the pipeline? Can > > anyone think of a better way to go about this? > > > > -- > > Chris Jones > > > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Thu Jun 29 07:12:22 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 269443B0196 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:12:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06178-06 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:12:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A3A83B0078 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:12:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5TBCIZo017365 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 05:12:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1M00701C9XWA@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:12:18 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-116-82.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.116.82]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1M008FPCGHN4@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:12:17 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:13:31 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: docked window mode in GOk and SOK In-reply-to: To: Chris Jones Message-id: <1151579611.7091.17.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151539810.7061.18.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.58 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.58 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 11:12:22 -0000 Reading the gconf values isn't a fully robust solution, since the panel is not the only thing that might use _NET_WM_STRUTS. It's not apathy, it just that fixing this the right way would require new WM API. Bill On Thu, 2006-06-29 at 12:02, Chris Jones wrote: > Well I think it is possible to detect if the panel is running through > dbus, and it's location is stored in gconf. This should be easy to > implement. I've already tested it by hardcoding an offset, all that > remains to do is reading the gconf values. > > I don't quite understand this apathy. No other part of the desktop > would put up with such an annoying bug. I don't see why it is > acceptable here. > > On 29/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > Hi Chris: > > > > There's no good solution to the "share a dock area" problem. We > > recommend that you don't use both top and bottom panels when running an > > onscreen keyboard, for this reason. > > > > The straightforward solution is to remove either the top or bottom > > panel, and then use that edge to dock your keyboard. Otherwise you > > could waste^^H^H^spend a lot of time trying to work around this. > > > > I don't believe there's any way to put multiple docks on one edge > > reliably unless those docks share code (this is how gnome-panel manages > > this), or some new IPC is invented whereby the docks can share info (and > > then you have to convince all the users of _NET_WM_STRUT to implement > > that IPC - good luck!). The existing X API for struts just doesn't > > accommodate this scenario. > > > > > > regards, > > > > Bill > > > > On Wed, 2006-06-28 at 22:43, Chris Jones wrote: > > > SOK is simple onscreen keyboard I am writing to compliment GOK. It is > > > a summer of code project. > > > > > > > > > I've been trying to implement a dock window mode for SOK like that > > > which GOK has. > > > > > > Unfortunately my effort was met with a plethora of problems. > > > > > > Support for such docked windows is unpredictable under dual screens > > > and can cause windows to get stuck or disappear etc. There's not much > > > I can do about this but file bug reports. > > > > > > Attaching GOK or SOK to an edge which has a panel attached results in > > > a focus "war" betwixt the two. I'm planning to work round this by > > > reading the gconf keys for the panel and adjusting the placement of > > > SOK accordingly. Does GOK have a solution in the pipeline? Can > > > anyone think of a better way to go about this? > > > > > > -- > > > Chris Jones > > > > > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > > > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > -- > Chris Jones > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Thu Jun 29 08:47:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CF183B0275 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:47:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12023-08 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:47:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.205]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F3013B00CB for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:47:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id s1so116679nze for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 05:47:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.77.2 with SMTP id z2mr2949809nza; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 05:47:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.73.15 with HTTP; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 05:47:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 13:47:46 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: docked window mode in GOk and SOK In-Reply-To: <1151579611.7091.17.camel@linux.site> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1151539810.7061.18.camel@linux.site> <1151579611.7091.17.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.491 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.091, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.491 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:47:48 -0000 Agreed but it will do for now. Are there any plans for a new WM API. I don't think we can just leave this. On 29/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > Reading the gconf values isn't a fully robust solution, since the panel > is not the only thing that might use _NET_WM_STRUTS. > > It's not apathy, it just that fixing this the right way would require > new WM API. > > Bill > > On Thu, 2006-06-29 at 12:02, Chris Jones wrote: > > Well I think it is possible to detect if the panel is running through > > dbus, and it's location is stored in gconf. This should be easy to > > implement. I've already tested it by hardcoding an offset, all that > > remains to do is reading the gconf values. > > > > I don't quite understand this apathy. No other part of the desktop > > would put up with such an annoying bug. I don't see why it is > > acceptable here. > > > > On 29/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > > Hi Chris: > > > > > > There's no good solution to the "share a dock area" problem. We > > > recommend that you don't use both top and bottom panels when running an > > > onscreen keyboard, for this reason. > > > > > > The straightforward solution is to remove either the top or bottom > > > panel, and then use that edge to dock your keyboard. Otherwise you > > > could waste^^H^H^spend a lot of time trying to work around this. > > > > > > I don't believe there's any way to put multiple docks on one edge > > > reliably unless those docks share code (this is how gnome-panel manages > > > this), or some new IPC is invented whereby the docks can share info (and > > > then you have to convince all the users of _NET_WM_STRUT to implement > > > that IPC - good luck!). The existing X API for struts just doesn't > > > accommodate this scenario. > > > > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > On Wed, 2006-06-28 at 22:43, Chris Jones wrote: > > > > SOK is simple onscreen keyboard I am writing to compliment GOK. It is > > > > a summer of code project. > > > > > > > > > > > > I've been trying to implement a dock window mode for SOK like that > > > > which GOK has. > > > > > > > > Unfortunately my effort was met with a plethora of problems. > > > > > > > > Support for such docked windows is unpredictable under dual screens > > > > and can cause windows to get stuck or disappear etc. There's not much > > > > I can do about this but file bug reports. > > > > > > > > Attaching GOK or SOK to an edge which has a panel attached results in > > > > a focus "war" betwixt the two. I'm planning to work round this by > > > > reading the gconf keys for the panel and adjusting the placement of > > > > SOK accordingly. Does GOK have a solution in the pipeline? Can > > > > anyone think of a better way to go about this? > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Chris Jones > > > > > > > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > > > > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Chris Jones > > > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Thu Jun 29 08:59:04 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DD563B0078 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:59:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12865-06 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:59:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 178A23B011B for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:59:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5TCwk4T017434 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 06:59:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1M00901HD4HI@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 13:58:54 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-173.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.173]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1M0082MHE5N4@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 13:58:53 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 14:00:07 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: docked window mode in GOk and SOK In-reply-to: To: Chris Jones Message-id: <1151586006.14116.6.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151539810.7061.18.camel@linux.site> <1151579611.7091.17.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.58 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.58 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:59:04 -0000 On Thu, 2006-06-29 at 13:47, Chris Jones wrote: > Agreed but it will do for now. > > Are there any plans for a new WM API. I don't think we can just leave this. The wm-spec-list@gnome.org is the place to take the discussion. Good luck convincing folks of the value of multiple docks on the same edge of the screen, though... seems like a usability misfeature. At least where GOK was concerned it seemed preferable to reduce the number of panels. The second panel in Gnome doesn't add much functionality that couldn't be achieved by just combining the two panels. Of course you can also work around this by putting both Gnome panels on the same edge of the screen, which arguably would result in better usability anyhow. I think there is value in having the onscreen keyboard sit "on its own", having it share the edge with a panel means it's harder for the user to quickly scan for the desired characters. Bill > On 29/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > Reading the gconf values isn't a fully robust solution, since the panel > > is not the only thing that might use _NET_WM_STRUTS. > > > > It's not apathy, it just that fixing this the right way would require > > new WM API. > > > > Bill > > > > On Thu, 2006-06-29 at 12:02, Chris Jones wrote: > > > Well I think it is possible to detect if the panel is running through > > > dbus, and it's location is stored in gconf. This should be easy to > > > implement. I've already tested it by hardcoding an offset, all that > > > remains to do is reading the gconf values. > > > > > > I don't quite understand this apathy. No other part of the desktop > > > would put up with such an annoying bug. I don't see why it is > > > acceptable here. > > > > > > On 29/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > > > Hi Chris: > > > > > > > > There's no good solution to the "share a dock area" problem. We > > > > recommend that you don't use both top and bottom panels when running an > > > > onscreen keyboard, for this reason. > > > > > > > > The straightforward solution is to remove either the top or bottom > > > > panel, and then use that edge to dock your keyboard. Otherwise you > > > > could waste^^H^H^spend a lot of time trying to work around this. > > > > > > > > I don't believe there's any way to put multiple docks on one edge > > > > reliably unless those docks share code (this is how gnome-panel manages > > > > this), or some new IPC is invented whereby the docks can share info (and > > > > then you have to convince all the users of _NET_WM_STRUT to implement > > > > that IPC - good luck!). The existing X API for struts just doesn't > > > > accommodate this scenario. > > > > > > > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > On Wed, 2006-06-28 at 22:43, Chris Jones wrote: > > > > > SOK is simple onscreen keyboard I am writing to compliment GOK. It is > > > > > a summer of code project. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've been trying to implement a dock window mode for SOK like that > > > > > which GOK has. > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately my effort was met with a plethora of problems. > > > > > > > > > > Support for such docked windows is unpredictable under dual screens > > > > > and can cause windows to get stuck or disappear etc. There's not much > > > > > I can do about this but file bug reports. > > > > > > > > > > Attaching GOK or SOK to an edge which has a panel attached results in > > > > > a focus "war" betwixt the two. I'm planning to work round this by > > > > > reading the gconf keys for the panel and adjusting the placement of > > > > > SOK accordingly. Does GOK have a solution in the pipeline? Can > > > > > anyone think of a better way to go about this? > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Chris Jones > > > > > > > > > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > > > > > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Chris Jones > > > > > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > > > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > -- > Chris Jones > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From tward1978@earthlink.net Fri Jun 30 04:35:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B18513B0071 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 04:35:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04966-08 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 04:35:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-gadwall.atl.sa.earthlink.net (pop-gadwall.atl.sa.earthlink.net [207.69.195.61]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 068553B007D for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 04:35:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dialup-4.224.186.152.dial1.cincinnati1.level3.net ([4.224.186.152]) by pop-gadwall.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1FwETF-0000dB-00 for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 04:35:26 -0400 Message-ID: <44A4E251.8000207@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 04:35:29 -0400 From: Thomas Ward User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Gnome and Ubuntu 6.06? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.464 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.479, BAYES_40=-0.185, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2] X-Spam-Score: -0.464 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:35:27 -0000 Hi, list. This might seam like a really stupid question, but I have been hearing allot about Ubuntu Linux which I'd like to try, and don't have a fricking clue on how to get it up and working. I have spent hours reading the Ubuntu sight and can't even find a basic install guide for it. So here is the question. What do I need to get a basic Ubuntu system up and running with gnome 2.14 and gnopernicus or orca? While I am at it it might help to tell me what disk I need the desktop, server, or other disk image. I've already got the desktop disk and can't figure how to install it nor can I find the packages on the disk so I am all screwed up with this distribution. As I said I need someone to help me with the very very very basics of even stalling, setup, and telling me what is what. I know nothing about Ubuntu and they have like 0 setup and install guides that I can find. Any help? Thanks. From jasonw@ariel.its.unimelb.edu.au Fri Jun 30 05:29:35 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F07E63B007D for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 05:29:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07948-09 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 05:29:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net (smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net [203.16.214.181]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD72F3B0073 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 05:29:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jdc.local (ppp184-31.lns2.mel4.internode.on.net [59.167.184.31] (may be forged)) by smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5U9TVho038402 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 18:59:31 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from jasonw@ariel.its.unimelb.edu.au) Received: by jdc.local (Postfix, from userid 1000) id EA8B0781438C; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 19:29:30 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 19:29:30 +1000 From: Jason White To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Gnome and Ubuntu 6.06? Message-ID: <20060630092930.GA9048@jdc> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org References: <44A4E251.8000207@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <44A4E251.8000207@earthlink.net> User-Agent: mutt-ng/devel-r774 (Debian) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.436 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.029, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.436 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:29:35 -0000 Ubuntu is based on the Debian GNU/Linux distribution, and reputedly uses an installer based on Debian's. Thus you may find the Debian installation guide helpful for the basic operating system installation process. http://www.debian.org/ (look under "documentation"). I am sure Ubuntu users subscribed to this list will suggest how you can most easily set it up to run Gnopernicus, Orca or whatever you need. From bmustillrose@gmail.com Fri Jun 30 05:38:14 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17C253B0073 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 05:38:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08654-05 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 05:38:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.190]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59A4D3B007D for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 05:38:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id c29so246584nfb for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 02:38:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.48.235.13 with SMTP id i13mr143064nfh; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 02:38:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.48.42.3 with HTTP; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 02:38:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4285e65e0606300238s246e637dk54df4e1a449ab2c5@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 10:38:10 +0100 From: "ben mustill-rose" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Gnome and Ubuntu 6.06? In-Reply-To: <20060630092930.GA9048@jdc> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <44A4E251.8000207@earthlink.net> <20060630092930.GA9048@jdc> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.5 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:38:14 -0000 Hi. I am also new to ubuntu, and installed it some time ago with sighted assistanse. I downloaded the desktop 6.06 iso and berned it to a cd. You will need sighted help to install this and to install gnopernicus or orca. Once you have everything set up, click aplications, (alt f1) and click manage programs; (i don't think its called that, but its something like that). If you are connected to the internet, a list of programs that you can download will load, just find gnopernicus in there. Note that orca is not in this list, and that i have had PROBLEMS using gnopernicus along side ubuntu 6.06 and gnome. BEN. On 30/06/06, Jason White wrote: > Ubuntu is based on the Debian GNU/Linux distribution, and reputedly uses an > installer based on Debian's. Thus you may find the Debian installation guide > helpful for the basic operating system installation process. > http://www.debian.org/ (look under "documentation"). > > I am sure Ubuntu users subscribed to this list will suggest how you can most > easily set it up to run Gnopernicus, Orca or whatever you need. > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > From tward1978@earthlink.net Fri Jun 30 08:19:42 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AAEF3B01F6 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:19:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18008-10 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:19:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-canoe.atl.sa.earthlink.net (pop-canoe.atl.sa.earthlink.net [207.69.195.66]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A52D3B030B for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:19:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dialup-4.224.39.23.dial1.cincinnati1.level3.net ([4.224.39.23]) by pop-canoe.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1FwHyF-0000fY-00 for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:19:39 -0400 Message-ID: <44A516DF.9080107@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:19:43 -0400 From: Thomas Ward User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Gnome and Ubuntu 6.06? References: <44A4E251.8000207@earthlink.net> <20060630092930.GA9048@jdc> In-Reply-To: <20060630092930.GA9048@jdc> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.557 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.614, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.456] X-Spam-Score: -1.557 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 12:19:42 -0000 Hi, Jason. Thanks for the information. I just read through the Debian installation manual, and while it seams strait forward I don't think it reflects what I am seeing as far as Ubuntu 6.06 desktop version. Now, the manual did mention using a preconfiguration script which would allow one to do an autoinstall of Debian. I wonder if the same is true for Ubuntu, and how much different is the preconfiguration script etc from Debian in Ubuntu. As I am blind and don't have much help around an autoinstallation or a terminal install is esentual for me getting this thing on my system. So I will be doing this the hard way. Wish more distributions were like Fedora and allowed for autoinstalls, telnet installs, and terminal installs. My hope and desire is to run say an autoinstall have it get it on, reboot in to gnome, and fire up gnopernicus after login. Is that a reasonable expectation for Ubuntu or am I barking up the wrong tree. I can do this with Fedora but can't do this with most other distributions, but I am hoping Ubuntu will be able to do this as well. Jason White wrote: > Ubuntu is based on the Debian GNU/Linux distribution, and reputedly uses an > installer based on Debian's. Thus you may find the Debian installation guide > helpful for the basic operating system installation process. > http://www.debian.org/ (look under "documentation"). > > I am sure Ubuntu users subscribed to this list will suggest how you can most > easily set it up to run Gnopernicus, Orca or whatever you need. > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > From tward1978@earthlink.net Fri Jun 30 08:23:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5E603B033A for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:23:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18297-10 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:23:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-canoe.atl.sa.earthlink.net (pop-canoe.atl.sa.earthlink.net [207.69.195.66]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0E733B012D for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:23:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dialup-4.224.39.23.dial1.cincinnati1.level3.net ([4.224.39.23]) by pop-canoe.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1FwI1d-0001My-00; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:23:09 -0400 Message-ID: <44A517B1.5000802@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:23:13 -0400 From: Thomas Ward User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ben mustill-rose Subject: Re: Gnome and Ubuntu 6.06? References: <44A4E251.8000207@earthlink.net> <20060630092930.GA9048@jdc> <4285e65e0606300238s246e637dk54df4e1a449ab2c5@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4285e65e0606300238s246e637dk54df4e1a449ab2c5@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.309 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.366, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.456] X-Spam-Score: -1.309 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 12:23:13 -0000 Hi, Ben. What happens if you don't have an internet connection at the time. I am assuming from your post the Ubuntu desktop cd doesn't contain gnopernicus. If not I am basicly screwed. Anyone know if the server eddition or the alternative install version has gnopernicus? I need to get this thing installed, fire up gnopernicus, basicly without sighted aid, and once I have speech up I can add packages, setup internet connection, etc. ben mustill-rose wrote: > Hi. > > I am also new to ubuntu, and installed it some time ago with sighted assistanse. > > I downloaded the desktop 6.06 iso and berned it to a cd. > You will need sighted help to install this and to install gnopernicus or orca. > Once you have everything set up, click aplications, (alt f1) and click > manage programs; (i don't think its called that, but its something > like that). > If you are connected to the internet, a list of programs that you can > download will load, just find gnopernicus in there. > Note that orca is not in this list, and that i have had PROBLEMS using > gnopernicus along side ubuntu 6.06 and gnome. > > BEN. > From ricaradu@gmail.com Fri Jun 30 09:27:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FCC63B028E for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:27:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22210-03 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:27:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.188]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E52773B033B for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:27:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id o25so268745nfa for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 06:27:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.97.7 with SMTP id u7mr111158hub; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 06:27:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from linbetwin ( [85.186.214.190]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id y1sm517270hua.2006.06.30.06.27.16; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 06:27:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000801c69c48$e793a870$bed6ba55@linbetwin> From: "Aurelian Radu" To: "Thomas Ward" , "ben mustill-rose" References: <44A4E251.8000207@earthlink.net> <20060630092930.GA9048@jdc><4285e65e0606300238s246e637dk54df4e1a449ab2c5@mail.gmail.com> <44A517B1.5000802@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Gnome and Ubuntu 6.06? Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 16:27:14 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.4 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 13:27:20 -0000 Hi, Thomas, Gnopernicus is on the desktop CD and on the alternate CD. Just put the CD into the drive and reboot your machine. Make sure your computer boots from the CD drive first. If you have the desktop CD, your computer will boot into a LiveCD, which is basically an OS that runs from the CD. On the desktop you will see an icon for installing the system. Double-click on it and you will see that installation is very simple. Be careful with partitioning! Do you have free space on the HDD, or an empty partition that you can format without losing data ? About Gnopernicus: what do you need ? The text-to-speech program or the magnifier ? Once you've installed Ubuntu, go to System > Preferences > Assistive technologies. Enable assistive technologies and select the module you want to load (speech, magnifier, braille, onscreen keyboard...). Then click Log Out, log back in and you'll have Gnopernicus on. Are you familiar with other Linux distributions ? Do you know what root is ? If yes, don't worry if Ubuntu doesn't ask you to create a root password. You can use sudo with your user password to execute commands with administrator privileges. I'll be glad to help you if you have more questions. Have a trouble-free install ! Aurelian Radu ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Ward" To: "ben mustill-rose" Cc: Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 3:23 PM Subject: Re: Gnome and Ubuntu 6.06? > Hi, Ben. > What happens if you don't have an internet connection at the time. I am > assuming from your post the Ubuntu desktop cd doesn't contain > gnopernicus. If not I am basicly screwed. > Anyone know if the server eddition or the alternative install version > has gnopernicus? I need to get this thing installed, fire up > gnopernicus, basicly without sighted aid, and once I have speech up I > can add packages, setup internet connection, etc. > > > > ben mustill-rose wrote: >> Hi. >> >> I am also new to ubuntu, and installed it some time ago with sighted >> assistanse. >> >> I downloaded the desktop 6.06 iso and berned it to a cd. >> You will need sighted help to install this and to install gnopernicus or >> orca. >> Once you have everything set up, click aplications, (alt f1) and click >> manage programs; (i don't think its called that, but its something >> like that). >> If you are connected to the internet, a list of programs that you can >> download will load, just find gnopernicus in there. >> Note that orca is not in this list, and that i have had PROBLEMS using >> gnopernicus along side ubuntu 6.06 and gnome. >> >> BEN. >> > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Fri Jun 30 12:09:55 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D9303B02B3 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 12:09:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31379-05 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 12:09:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B782A3B013F for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 12:09:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5UG9nvx010680 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J1O00701KVI1T00@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([63.207.212.14]) by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J1O00FKTKWAY360@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:09:43 -0700 From: Peter Korn Subject: Re: Gnome and Ubuntu 6.06? In-reply-to: <44A4E251.8000207@earthlink.net> Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: Thomas Ward Message-id: <44A54CC7.30206@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <44A4E251.8000207@earthlink.net> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 16:09:55 -0000 Hi Thomas, Please see http://live.gnome.org/Orca/UbuntuDapperDrake for instructions on getting Orca up and running on Ubuntu version 6.0.6 (known as the "Dapper Drake" release). Regards, Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. > Hi, list. > This might seam like a really stupid question, but I have been hearing > allot about Ubuntu Linux which I'd like to try, and don't have a > fricking clue on how to get it up and working. I have spent hours > reading the Ubuntu sight and can't even find a basic install guide for > it. So here is the question. What do I need to get a basic Ubuntu system > up and running with gnome 2.14 and gnopernicus or orca? > While I am at it it might help to tell me what disk I need the desktop, > server, or other disk image. I've already got the desktop disk and can't > figure how to install it nor can I find the packages on the disk so I am > all screwed up with this distribution. As I said I need someone to help > me with the very very very basics of even stalling, setup, and telling > me what is what. I know nothing about Ubuntu and they have like 0 setup > and install guides that I can find. > Any help? > Thanks. > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > From christian08@runbox.com Fri Jun 30 16:58:44 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FB913B02A6 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 16:58:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13720-02 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 16:58:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aibo.runbox.com (aibo.runbox.com [193.71.199.94]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 093B93B0293 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 16:58:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.9.9.160] (helo=penny.runbox.com ident=Debian-exim) by greyhound.runbox.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1FwQ4Y-0004Fd-7Y for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 22:58:42 +0200 Received: from [81.216.142.231] (helo=127.0.0.1) by penny.runbox.com with esmtpsa (uid:521761 ) (SSL 3.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32) (Exim 4.50) id 1FwQ4Y-0001kX-3I for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 22:58:42 +0200 Message-ID: <200606302258440015.0018CE09@127.0.0.1> X-Mailer: Courier 3.50.00.09.1098 (http://www.rosecitysoftware.com) (P) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 22:58:44 +0200 From: "Christian" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Need help with installing latest Ubuntu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 20:58:44 -0000 Hello all, Finally, I managed to run the latest Live CD of Ubuntu and use Gnopernicus.= However, I cant install Ubuntu onto my system. I know that the installer= doesn't talk without doing some things. As a none Linux expert, I have to ask a few questions! When to execute sudo -s? I did this when I pressed Alt+F2 for run. Should I= close Gnopernicus first? I did so. After I had enter sudo -s and pressed enter I entered gnopernicus from= there but nothing happened. Please, give me any direction. I really want to install this system! Many thanks, Christian From bjsn@ozemail.com.au Fri Jun 30 19:53:32 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DF253B03EE for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 19:53:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22742-02 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 19:53:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail-ihug.icp-qv1-irony3.iinet.net.au (ihug-mail.icp-qv1-irony3.iinet.net.au [203.59.1.197]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 846933B03C3 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 19:53:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 203-206-69-98.dyn.iinet.net.au (HELO [192.168.1.100]) ([203.206.69.98]) by mail-ihug.icp-qv1-irony3.iinet.net.au with ESMTP; 01 Jul 2006 07:53:24 +0800 X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-IronPort-AV: i="4.06,198,1149436800"; d="scan'208"; a="846339191:sNHT13226404" Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2006 09:53:27 +1000 (EST) From: Jan and Bertil Smark Nilsson X-X-Sender: bertil@localhost.localdomain To: Thomas Ward Subject: Re: Gnome and Ubuntu 6.06? In-Reply-To: <44A516DF.9080107@earthlink.net> Message-ID: References: <44A4E251.8000207@earthlink.net> <20060630092930.GA9048@jdc> <44A516DF.9080107@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.323 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.276, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.323 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 23:53:32 -0000 Thomas, I've a feeling that you've downloaded the wrong ISO. For what you want to do, You'll need the alternate install image from Ubuntu. There, you'll also find an installation manual. I suggest you download ubuntu-6.06-alternate-i386.iso if you have an Intel processor. Good luck! Bertil Smark Nilsson On Fri, 30 Jun 2006, Thomas Ward wrote: > Hi, Jason. > Thanks for the information. I just read through the Debian installation > manual, and while it seams strait forward I don't think it reflects > what I am seeing as far as Ubuntu 6.06 desktop version. Now, the manual > did mention using a preconfiguration script which would allow one to do > an autoinstall of Debian. I wonder if the same is true for Ubuntu, and > how much different is the preconfiguration script etc from Debian in > Ubuntu. As I am blind and don't have much help around an > autoinstallation or a terminal install is esentual for me getting this > thing on my system. So I will be doing this the hard way. Wish more > distributions were like Fedora and allowed for autoinstalls, telnet > installs, and terminal installs. > My hope and desire is to run say an autoinstall have it get it on, > reboot in to gnome, and fire up gnopernicus after login. Is that a > reasonable expectation for Ubuntu or am I barking up the wrong tree. I > can do this with Fedora but can't do this with most other distributions, > but I am hoping Ubuntu will be able to do this as well. > > > > > Jason White wrote: >> Ubuntu is based on the Debian GNU/Linux distribution, and reputedly uses an >> installer based on Debian's. Thus you may find the Debian installation guide >> helpful for the basic operating system installation process. >> http://www.debian.org/ (look under "documentation"). >> >> I am sure Ubuntu users subscribed to this list will suggest how you can most >> easily set it up to run Gnopernicus, Orca or whatever you need. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > From Evan.Yan@Sun.COM Fri Jun 2 03:30:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22E083B0387 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 03:30:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06467-05 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 03:30:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sineb-mail-2.sun.com (sineb-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.19.7]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1A803B1061 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 03:29:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fe-apac-05.sun.com (fe-apac-05.sun.com [192.18.19.176] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k527TuS2009928 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:29:57 +0800 (SGT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J080000125VLS00@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Evan.Yan@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:29:56 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.158.144.94] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J08003J425W5DGH@mail-apac.sun.com> for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:29:56 +0800 (SGT) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:31:13 +0800 From: Evan Yan Sender: Evan.Yan@Sun.COM To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-id: <447FE941.4080001@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Can GOK work with autocompletion? X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 07:30:36 -0000 Hi all, I'm now working on a mozilla a11y bug, about autocompletion. The URL of the bug is https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=338242 I'm not sure whether GOK can work with autocompletion. When I input something used before into a textbox, the autocompletion will pop up, could GOK update to show the autocompletion items? I also tried that in Evolution. When writing a email, inputing a mail address which have been in the contact list, the autocompletion pop up, GOK also can't work with it. Is that a GOK bug? Thanks, Evan From alastairirving19@hotmail.com Fri Jun 2 07:41:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 159813B040E for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 07:41:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22456-10 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 07:41:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (bay112-dav20.bay112.hotmail.com [64.4.26.92]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCD603B03DE for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 07:41:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 04:41:17 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.129.189.168 by BAY112-DAV20.phx.gbl with DAV; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 11:41:14 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.129.189.168] X-Originating-Email: [alastairirving19@hotmail.com] X-Sender: alastairirving19@hotmail.com From: "Alastair Irving" To: Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 12:41:24 +0100 Message-ID: <000201c68639$7a31a6d0$0301a8c0@alastair> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C68641.DBF60ED0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2616 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Importance: Normal X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Jun 2006 11:41:17.0982 (UTC) FILETIME=[7621C3E0:01C68639] X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.544 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.364, BAYES_50=0.001, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST=1.708, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: 0.544 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Problem with orca X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 11:41:20 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C68641.DBF60ED0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello I have just installed orca 0.2.4 on my fedora core 5 laptop. The compilation went without errors. However, when I load orca, it says "orca initialised, switching to focus tracking mode", and then speech stops. I am informed that a message saying that the gnome panel has unexpectedly quit is displayed. I had this same problem with the version of gnopernicus shipped with fc5, but when I reinstalled from source it was resolved. Has anyone come across this before? Alastair Irving e-mail (and MSN): alastairirving19@hotmail.com ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C68641.DBF60ED0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Hello
 
I have = just=20 installed orca 0.2.4 on my fedora core 5 laptop.  The compilation = went=20 without errors.  However, when I load orca, it says "orca = initialised,=20 switching to focus tracking mode", and then speech stops.  I am = informed=20 that a message saying that the gnome panel has unexpectedly quit is=20 displayed. 
 
I had = this same=20 problem with the version of gnopernicus shipped with fc5, but when I = reinstalled=20 from source it was resolved.
 
Has = anyone come=20 across this before?
 
Alastair = Irving
e-mail (and = MSN): alastairirving19@hotmail.com=
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C68641.DBF60ED0-- From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Fri Jun 2 10:57:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D58D13B1189 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 10:57:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01532-10 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 10:57:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96D273B1174 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 10:57:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-04.sun.com ([192.18.39.114]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k52EvGNh007567 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 07:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-04.sun.com by d1-sfbay-04.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0800501LJXA200@d1-sfbay-04.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 07:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.21.165] by d1-sfbay-04.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J08000OEMVDEZ40@d1-sfbay-04.sun.com> for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 07:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 07:57:11 -0700 From: Peter Korn In-reply-to: <447FE941.4080001@Sun.COM> Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: Evan Yan Message-id: <448051C7.7050307@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <447FE941.4080001@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (Windows/20060308) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.523 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.075, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.523 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Can GOK work with autocompletion? X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 14:57:57 -0000 Hi Evan, This is an interesting idea - having GOK work with auto-completion! GOK has its own work completion algorithm, but that by its nature cannot have application-specific knowledge, and so generally won't do as good a job. The question is, how should GOK show such application-specific word completion, and how do we communicate that between the application and GOK via AT-SPI. Evan, David - any thoughts? Regards, Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. > Hi all, > > I'm now working on a mozilla a11y bug, about autocompletion. The URL of > the bug is > https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=338242 > > I'm not sure whether GOK can work with autocompletion. > When I input something used before into a textbox, the autocompletion > will pop up, could GOK update to show the autocompletion items? > I also tried that in Evolution. When writing a email, inputing a mail > address which have been in the contact list, the autocompletion pop up, > GOK also can't work with it. > > Is that a GOK bug? > > Thanks, > Evan > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > From david.bolter@utoronto.ca Fri Jun 2 15:28:02 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F18553B0210 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:28:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18925-03 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:27:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bureau8.utcc.utoronto.ca (bureau8.utcc.utoronto.ca [128.100.132.18]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B6C63B0B87 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:27:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail5.ns.utoronto.ca ([128.100.132.37] EHLO webmail5.ns.utoronto.ca ident: IDENT-NOT-QUERIED [port 51626]) by bureau8.utcc.utoronto.ca with ESMTP id <25121-29744>; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:25:00 -0400 Received: by webmail5.ns.utoronto.ca id <873031-8996>; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:24:50 -0400 Received: from 64.231.159.101 ( [64.231.159.101]) as user bolterda@10.143.0.52 by webmail.utoronto.ca with HTTP; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:24:46 -0400 Message-ID: <1149276286.4480907eece14@webmail.utoronto.ca> Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:24:46 -0400 From: david.bolter@utoronto.ca To: Peter Korn References: <447FE941.4080001@Sun.COM> <448051C7.7050307@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <448051C7.7050307@sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.638 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_REAL_NAME=0.961] X-Spam-Score: -1.638 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Evan Yan , gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Can GOK work with autocompletion? X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 19:28:02 -0000 Hi guys. Technically I'm on holiday today. I think we could choose an existing event (or propose a new one) for notification regarding this... and GOK could create a key representing the current app-autocompletion. Nice idea guys! cheers, D Quoting Peter Korn : > Hi Evan, > > This is an interesting idea - having GOK work with auto-completion! GOK > has its own work completion algorithm, but that by its nature cannot > have application-specific knowledge, and so generally won't do as good a > job. > > The question is, how should GOK show such application-specific word > completion, and how do we communicate that between the application and > GOK via AT-SPI. Evan, David - any thoughts? > > > Regards, > > Peter Korn > Accessibility Architect, > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > Hi all, > > > > I'm now working on a mozilla a11y bug, about autocompletion. The URL of > > the bug is > > https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=338242 > > > > I'm not sure whether GOK can work with autocompletion. > > When I input something used before into a textbox, the autocompletion > > will pop up, could GOK update to show the autocompletion items? > > I also tried that in Evolution. When writing a email, inputing a mail > > address which have been in the contact list, the autocompletion pop up, > > GOK also can't work with it. > > > > Is that a GOK bug? > > > > Thanks, > > Evan > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Fri Jun 2 16:00:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C770E3B0339 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 16:00:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20811-03 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 16:00:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9B203B015D for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 16:00:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-01.sun.com ([192.18.39.111]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k52JxvUS028281 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 12:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-01.sun.com by d1-sfbay-01.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0900G010IPLV00@d1-sfbay-01.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 12:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.21.165] by d1-sfbay-01.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0900CKK0VV9U10@d1-sfbay-01.sun.com>; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 12:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 12:59:53 -0700 From: Peter Korn In-reply-to: <1149276286.4480907eece14@webmail.utoronto.ca> Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: david.bolter@utoronto.ca Message-id: <448098B9.8080204@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <447FE941.4080001@Sun.COM> <448051C7.7050307@sun.com> <1149276286.4480907eece14@webmail.utoronto.ca> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (Windows/20060308) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.528 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.070, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.528 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Evan Yan , gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Can GOK work with autocompletion? X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:00:08 -0000 Hi David, Hmmm... I wonder about using the AccessibleAction interface for this, with a naming convention we might all follow for the . Something like: "auto-complete:" as the action name, where "" is the actual auto-complete text that would be inserted (and thus displayed on the GOK key). Then the tooltip-like window that appears with the auto-complete options would implement the ATK_Action interface. This is more heavy-weight than having a special role for the tooltip-like window with text to be extracted, but it is also less constraining of the user interface implementation that programmers render. Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. > Hi guys. Technically I'm on holiday today. I think we could choose an existing > event (or propose a new one) for notification regarding this... and GOK could > create a key representing the current app-autocompletion. > > Nice idea guys! > > cheers, > D > Quoting Peter Korn : > > >> Hi Evan, >> >> This is an interesting idea - having GOK work with auto-completion! GOK >> has its own work completion algorithm, but that by its nature cannot >> have application-specific knowledge, and so generally won't do as good a >> job. >> >> The question is, how should GOK show such application-specific word >> completion, and how do we communicate that between the application and >> GOK via AT-SPI. Evan, David - any thoughts? >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Peter Korn >> Accessibility Architect, >> Sun Microsystems, Inc. >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I'm now working on a mozilla a11y bug, about autocompletion. The URL of >>> the bug is >>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=338242 >>> >>> I'm not sure whether GOK can work with autocompletion. >>> When I input something used before into a textbox, the autocompletion >>> will pop up, could GOK update to show the autocompletion items? >>> I also tried that in Evolution. When writing a email, inputing a mail >>> address which have been in the contact list, the autocompletion pop up, >>> GOK also can't work with it. >>> >>> Is that a GOK bug? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Evan >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > From Evan.Yan@Sun.COM Sun Jun 4 13:47:19 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DBC03B0149 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 13:47:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00810-07 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 13:47:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sineb-mail-1.sun.com (sineb-mail-1.sun.com [192.18.19.6]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE6513B0130 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 13:47:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fe-apac-06.sun.com (fe-apac-06.sun.com [192.18.19.177] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k54HlBlW001893 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:47:13 +0800 (SGT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0C00C01JYLYV00@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Evan.Yan@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 01:47:11 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.150.145.22] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0C00D5YK1F36A2@mail-apac.sun.com>; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 01:47:11 +0800 (SGT) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 01:46:27 +0800 From: Evan Yan In-reply-to: <448098B9.8080204@sun.com> Sender: Evan.Yan@Sun.COM To: Peter Korn Message-id: <44831C73.8020402@Sun.COM> Organization: sceri MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <447FE941.4080001@Sun.COM> <448051C7.7050307@sun.com> <1149276286.4480907eece14@webmail.utoronto.ca> <448098B9.8080204@sun.com> User-Agent: Mail/News 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060515) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: Cc: david.bolter@utoronto.ca, Ginn.Chen@Sun.COM, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Can GOK work with autocompletion? X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 17:47:19 -0000 Hi Peter & David, I feel that app-autocompletion is something similar to pop-up menu. Could we leverage the implementation of accessible pop-up menu? I found GOK can update to show autocompletion items under some particular situation, like the following steps: 1. start Firefox and locate to www.google.com, focus on the "search" textbox; 2. select GOK UI-Grab 3. click on the "search" textbox by mouse directly, not through GOK, that makes the autocompletion pop up. Then, GOK will update to show autocompletion items. However, clicking on the items shown by GOK has no effect except collapsing the autocompletion window. Hope this could help. Besides GOK can't work with autocompletion, when autocompletion in Firefox pops up, it takes minutes for GOK to start responsing any action on it. I could see by the event-listener tool of at-spi that there are hundreds of events through GOK and Firefox, it seems GOK are refreshing all the atk objects. is that a normal phenomenon or somthing wrong? Thank you, Evan Peter Korn wrote: > Hi David, > > Hmmm... I wonder about using the AccessibleAction interface for this, > with a naming convention we might all follow for the . Something like: > > "auto-complete:" > > as the action name, where "" is the actual auto-complete text > that would be inserted (and thus displayed on the GOK key). Then the > tooltip-like window that appears with the auto-complete options would > implement the ATK_Action interface. > This is more heavy-weight than having a special role for the > tooltip-like window with text to be extracted, but it is also less > constraining of the user interface implementation that programmers > render. > > > Peter Korn > Accessibility Architect, > Sun Microsystems, Inc. >> Hi guys. Technically I'm on holiday today. I think we could choose >> an existing >> event (or propose a new one) for notification regarding this... and >> GOK could >> create a key representing the current app-autocompletion. >> >> Nice idea guys! >> >> cheers, >> D >> Quoting Peter Korn : >> >> >>> Hi Evan, >>> >>> This is an interesting idea - having GOK work with auto-completion! >>> GOK has its own work completion algorithm, but that by its nature >>> cannot have application-specific knowledge, and so generally won't >>> do as good a job. >>> >>> The question is, how should GOK show such application-specific word >>> completion, and how do we communicate that between the application >>> and GOK via AT-SPI. Evan, David - any thoughts? >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Peter Korn >>> Accessibility Architect, >>> Sun Microsystems, Inc. >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I'm now working on a mozilla a11y bug, about autocompletion. The >>>> URL of >>>> the bug is >>>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=338242 >>>> >>>> I'm not sure whether GOK can work with autocompletion. >>>> When I input something used before into a textbox, the autocompletion >>>> will pop up, could GOK update to show the autocompletion items? >>>> I also tried that in Evolution. When writing a email, inputing a mail >>>> address which have been in the contact list, the autocompletion pop >>>> up, >>>> GOK also can't work with it. >>>> >>>> Is that a GOK bug? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Evan >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >>>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >>>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >> > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From bram@bramd.nl Sun Jun 4 17:55:08 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E18483B01B7 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:55:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13065-09 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:55:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bramd.nl (dsl251-4-101.fastxdsl.nl [80.101.4.251]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72A083B02B6 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:55:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (linux.bramd.nl [127.0.0.1]) by bramd.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54ED5144103 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 23:54:59 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: bramd.nl antivirus Received: from bramd.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (linux.lan.bramd.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n9CAfyI2djAx for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 23:54:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bramdd.lan.bramd.nl (bramdd.lan.bramd.nl [192.168.1.12]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by bramd.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53A33120109 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 23:54:55 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 23:54:47 +0200 From: Bram Duvigneau X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.80.03) Professional Organization: BramD.nl X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1759379234.20060604235447@bramd.nl> To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.464 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.464 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Gnopernicus and the new ubuntu installer X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Bram Duvigneau List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 21:55:08 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: MD5 Hi all, I just tried the new Ubuntu Dapper Drake live cd and the ubuntu express installer with gnopernicus. Gnopernicus is running quite well from the cd, but I had to do a few steps to get the installer talking: - - - Launch gnopernicus - - - Enable assistive technology support - - - Log out and in again - - - Launch gnopernicus from terminal, otherwise gnome-panel crshes - - - Get a root shell with sudo -s - - - Launch gnopernicus from there to ge taccess to the installer So far so good, but when I get to the screen where I can select my location, I'm getting stuck on the combobox of citties. I selected English as system language, therefor I'm only getting citties in the usa. I tried everything, but I couldn't get to citties in Europe. Does someone know how to manage this? Maybe it's also a good idea to change this in future versions to something easier to use for the blind, because this isn't really friendly for new blind linux users. Bram -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6 iQEVAwUARINWqq7p29XxtEd/AQFVmggAg7dwV93Mm1RY0Zh08gzi4AqUBBy4ZfmZ mPvrGkmVHOab2PvLu8wdTqMFBmEmPnmhL1M3nHUCV+eKazALhaAff+jCs3o3Z2th YyQHUcypY1Won/8lxoQvv0el2n33DJg9yfGIjxp0iIs1n5HxSnMf3X2eGKQsGtvi 2n3pR85Zj/pezsTRBMHGNy8H60raMYPY5UascT8H630feZqlMksuSZDxn47cJxLB doPU+i2hUVtY3ZovNANW34jYCEF0Uxux60ZcQUS8tauz0733v3MTeJYuX57iTU+2 5KGRwC9AqRQmS9CiMiuMQwv4QATK6Iy/IyfUBdeBOJyDdZMQmuTzxw== =MsLy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nowindows@terrencevak.net Sun Jun 4 21:29:30 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16F823B0448 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 21:29:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24753-03 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 21:29:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtpout08-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout08-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.12]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 128B23B0356 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 21:29:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 31491 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 01:29:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.223.182.2) by smtpout08-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.12) with ESMTP; 05 Jun 2006 01:29:25 -0000 Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:29:16 -0800 (AKDT) From: nowindows@terrencevak.net X-X-Sender: nowindows@Knoppix To: Bram Duvigneau In-Reply-To: <1759379234.20060604235447@bramd.nl> Message-ID: References: <1759379234.20060604235447@bramd.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.221 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.74, NO_REAL_NAME=0.961] X-Spam-Score: 0.221 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Gnopernicus and the new ubuntu installer X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 01:29:30 -0000 Do you still have the URL for that installer by chance? I'd like to try that instead of the patched-together arrangement I have now, which isn't working too well. Thanks, Terrence From petra@access-for-all.ch Mon Jun 5 01:01:19 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98AC23B0278 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:01:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03080-09 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:01:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from srv94-187.ip-tech.ch (backup01.scalera.ch [195.129.94.187]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F3023B039A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:01:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 26277 invoked by uid 503); 5 Jun 2006 05:08:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blade1-4.iptech.localdomain) (10.10.1.250) by 0 with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 05:08:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 22427 invoked by uid 104); 5 Jun 2006 05:01:10 -0000 Received: from 62.203.161.3 by blade1-4 (envelope-from , uid 408) with qmail-scanner-1.25 (clamdscan: 0.87.1. spamassassin: 2.64. Clear:RC:1(62.203.161.3):. Processed in 0.058345 secs); 05 Jun 2006 05:01:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO LESE-SCHREIBSYS) (62.203.161.3) by blade1-4.iptech.localdomain with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 05:01:09 -0000 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 07:01:12 +0200 From: Petra Ritter X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.0.1.33) Home X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <467747190.20060605070112@access-for-all.ch> To: "gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.136 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: 0.136 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Ubuntu Dapper Drake live cd X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Petra Ritter List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 05:01:19 -0000 Hello, I tried the Ubuntu Dapper Drake live cd, too and I run in to two accessibility problems. 1th If I start Ubuntu with the Option 'Blindness from the Accessebility Men=FC Gnopernicus commes up however the speech does mot work after the system is up and runing. Petra From petra@access-for-all.ch Mon Jun 5 01:25:24 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44F793B03EA for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:25:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04430-09 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:25:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from srv94-187.ip-tech.ch (backup01.scalera.ch [195.129.94.187]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6A063B026A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:25:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 5711 invoked by uid 503); 5 Jun 2006 05:32:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blade1-4.iptech.localdomain) (10.10.1.250) by 0 with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 05:32:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 30910 invoked by uid 104); 5 Jun 2006 05:25:20 -0000 Received: from 62.203.161.3 by blade1-4 (envelope-from , uid 408) with qmail-scanner-1.25 (clamdscan: 0.87.1. spamassassin: 2.64. Clear:RC:1(62.203.161.3):. Processed in 0.055812 secs); 05 Jun 2006 05:25:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO LESE-SCHREIBSYS) (62.203.161.3) by blade1-4.iptech.localdomain with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 05:25:20 -0000 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 07:25:23 +0200 From: Petra Ritter X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.0.1.33) Home X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <14710359560.20060605072523@access-for-all.ch> To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.32 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.144, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.32 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Ubuntu Dapper Drake live cd X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Petra Ritter List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 05:25:25 -0000 Hello , I tried the Ubuntu Dapper Drake live cd, too and I run in to two accessibility problems. 1th If I start Ubuntu with the Option 'Blindness from the Accessebility Men=FC Gnopernicus commes up however the speech does not work after the system is up and runing. 2th I diden't managed to read the Help from Gnopernicus itself. Gnopernicus just diden't read it. The same problem appear in Firefox and in Evolution. It seam thet Gnopernicus cant read any HTML dokument. Assuming the help from Gnopernicus is HTML, too I tried alrady F7 in order to activate the "Carat Browsing" however with no success at all. Is there anything else that I can try to get Gnopernicus to read the Help? Or is there anywhere on the Internet a documentation for Gnome exept the Tabele of the Layers on the Gnopernicus Website? Petra From henrik@ubuntu.com Mon Jun 5 05:20:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACF893B00CE for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 05:20:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17743-10 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 05:20:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 116903B010D for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 05:20:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.0.10] (henrik.gotadsl.co.uk [82.133.122.11]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44EE83392D4; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 10:09:21 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <4483F4C6.8080109@ubuntu.com> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:09:26 +0100 From: Henrik Nilsen Omma User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060522) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org References: <1759379234.20060604235447@bramd.nl> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.591 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.008, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.591 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Gnopernicus and the new ubuntu installer X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 09:20:07 -0000 nowindows@terrencevak.net wrote: > Do you still have the URL for that installer by chance? I'd like > to try that instead of the patched-together arrangement I have now, which > isn't working too well. > The Ubuntu Live CD can be downloaded from here: http://www.ubuntu.com/download That comes in the form of an ISO image that must be burned to a CD, and then boot with that CD. Some instructions on using the accessibility features are here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/doc/StartGuide Note that the system does have some limitations. - Henrik From henrik@ubuntu.com Mon Jun 5 05:25:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43B9A3B031D for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 05:25:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18450-02 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 05:25:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AC5C3B010D for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 05:25:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.0.10] (henrik.gotadsl.co.uk [82.133.122.11]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FB2433AF0D; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 10:19:11 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <4483F714.6040203@ubuntu.com> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:19:16 +0100 From: Henrik Nilsen Omma User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060522) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org References: <1759379234.20060604235447@bramd.nl> In-Reply-To: <1759379234.20060604235447@bramd.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Gnopernicus and the new ubuntu installer X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 09:25:20 -0000 Bram Duvigneau wrote: > Gnopernicus is running quite well from the cd, but I had to do a few > steps to get the installer talking: > > - - - Launch gnopernicus > - - - Enable assistive technology support > - - - Log out and in again > - - - Launch gnopernicus from terminal, otherwise gnome-panel crshes > - - - Get a root shell with sudo -s > - - - Launch gnopernicus from there to ge taccess to the installer > > So far so good, but when I get to the screen where I can select my > location, I'm getting stuck on the combobox of citties. I selected > English as system language, therefor I'm only getting citties in the > usa. I tried everything, but I couldn't get to citties in Europe. Does > someone know how to manage this? Maybe it's also a good idea to change > this in future versions to something easier to use for the blind, > because this isn't really friendly for new blind linux users. > Hi Bram, Thanks for testing and providing this work-around. I've added your description to this page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/doc/StartGuide The Ubiquity installer is basically a very new piece of software with several rough edges. Well done in getting it to work with speech at all using the sudo command. Our goal is obviously to provide a trouble free install path where everything 'just works' as expected. This kind of testing is very valuable in that regard. This is our first attempt ad doing it though, so we expect to have a more polished offering in the October/November release. It would also be useful if you could file a bug about the city combo-box here: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+filebug Thanks. - Henrik From ermengol@gmail.com Thu Jun 8 10:52:26 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E9F53B0524 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 10:52:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13363-01 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 10:52:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.193]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8421F3B0F2F for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 10:52:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so419164wxd for ; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 07:52:23 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=iMykGjuJPdkSVqsogvrI8pNPbnPzh/k/ZlsMh4fYlBeHomvTmrqVXKrE6SJ/1/4w8jwRyEPx1n2j35hZf+ztqo2Hd1/wOT/0G/SyLYWt79JeDd3k2goiEf1W2hRDahYvAQeK0PziznPQKlK2m6XFSXLm7rF3rzK8slShaUb/iqA= Received: by 10.70.100.17 with SMTP id x17mr2173736wxb; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 07:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.43.13 with HTTP; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 07:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 16:52:23 +0200 From: "Ermengol Bota" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.593 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.593 X-Spam-Level: Subject: gnopernicus-magnifier. Full screen magnifier with dummy driver X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 14:52:26 -0000 Hello, I'm trying to use the gnopernicus-magnifier as a full screen magnifier. I followed the instructions at: http://www.gnome.org/learn/access-guide/2.10/apas03.html I did it with the dummy driver, but this approach have a problem and is that you have two displays (one on the left to the other) One display is the zoomed version of the other. But the mouse can move freely from on display to another, so if you are working with the zoomed display and you move the mouse to the left (or right, it depends on X config) then you "move" to the non-zoomed display. And this is a little bit annoying :) Does any body knows about a workaround for this? or any other approach to use full screen magnification on linux? Thanks a lot -- * Ermengol * /*********************************************** * Els ordinadors no resolen problemes, * * simplement executen solucions. * ************************************************/ From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Fri Jun 9 02:15:04 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FC353B00F4 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 02:15:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32071-05 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 02:15:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD48D3B00C3 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 02:15:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-04.sun.com ([192.18.39.114]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k596EsDX009979 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 23:14:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-04.sun.com by d1-sfbay-04.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0K00I01SETE000@d1-sfbay-04.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:14:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([63.207.212.14]) by d1-sfbay-04.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0K00IGLXCT2510@d1-sfbay-04.sun.com>; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:14:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:14:52 -0700 From: Peter Korn In-reply-to: Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: Ermengol Bota Message-id: <448911DC.4090607@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: gnopernicus-magnifier. Full screen magnifier with dummy driver X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 06:15:04 -0000 Hi Ermengol, This is a problem with our current magnification architecture. We are looking forward to magnifiers that are based on several X extensions - most especially the COMPOSITE extension - which will allow us to avoid this bit of hackery. Unfortunately we aren't quite ready with those yet. Regards, Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. > Hello, > I'm trying to use the gnopernicus-magnifier as a full screen magnifier. > I followed the instructions at: > http://www.gnome.org/learn/access-guide/2.10/apas03.html > > I did it with the dummy driver, but this approach have a problem and > is that you have two displays (one on the left to the other) > One display is the zoomed version of the other. But the mouse can move > freely from on display to another, so if you are working with the > zoomed display and you move the mouse to the left (or right, it > depends on X config) then you "move" to the non-zoomed display. And > this is a little bit annoying :) > > Does any body knows about a workaround for this? or any other approach > to use full screen magnification on linux? > > Thanks a lot > From enrico@enricozini.org Sat Jun 10 05:22:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 168EE3B019E for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 05:22:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22030-10 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 05:22:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agnus.ngi.it (agnus.ngi.it [88.149.128.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 705403B0130 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 05:22:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eddie.casa (81-174-12-206.f5.ngi.it [81.174.12.206]) by agnus.ngi.it (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5A9Mn6W017903 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 11:22:52 +0200 Received: from eddie.casa (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eddie.casa (Postfix) with ESMTP id A278D3000BA for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 11:22:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from marvin.casa (marvin.casa [192.168.1.2]) by eddie.casa (Postfix) with ESMTP id 920CA3000B9 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 11:22:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from enrico by marvin.casa with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1FozgF-00037s-00 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 11:22:55 +0200 Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 11:22:55 +0200 From: Enrico Zini To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060610092255.GA9803@marvin.casa> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060403 Sender: Enrico Zini X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.406 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.058, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.406 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Fixing brittle speech support on Dapper X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 09:22:57 -0000 --HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Hello, Hi, I'm Enrico, my current task is to get Dapper to become a usable desktop for Italian blind people. I've been fiddling with the speech accessibility features of Dapper for a few days now, and I found lots of ways to get gnome-speech to hang, Now I'm looking for ways to keep it working. One hanging scenario: - freshly installed dapper, Italian localization - disable esd from preferences/audio - enable accessibility and screen reader from preferences/accessibility - log out and in again - gnopernicus works - disable screen reader (but not accessibility) from preferences/accessibility - log out and in again - orca-setup, works fine, speaks - orca - speech doesn't work anymore. test-speech exits with: Exception Unknown CORBA exception id: 'IDL:omg.org/CORBA/COMM_FAILURE:1.0' getting voice list. Another hanging scenario: - freshly installed dapper, Italian localization - disable esd from preferences/audio - enable 'universe' and install festlex-ifd, festvox-italp16k and festvox-itapc16k to have italian synthesis - enable accessibility and screen reader from preferences/accessibility - log out and in again - gnopernicus works in English - go in the preferences/speech/voices menu and choose the italian female voice for all voices, raise the rate a bit. The female voice speaks when raising the rate. - close the Voices menu, no more speech. test-speech exits with: Exception Unknown CORBA exception id: 'IDL:omg.org/CORBA/COMM_FAILURE:1.0' getting voice list. In test-speech, the Speech Dispatcher output doesn't work. The festival one works, but breaks after a minimum of use, where minimum of use means just choosing the voices I'd like to use. What can I look/try to get myself unstuck? Ciao, Enrico -- GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini --HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEio9v9LSwzHl+v6sRAmOUAJ9bdcQUGWLxi/5ojqTEJaDxYmirpQCgiBtj KWj7kZTPjPpyTXmRLrDZ9Sg= =uxCv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD-- From janina@opera.rednote.net Sat Jun 10 12:22:02 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 732FA3B0237; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 12:22:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14037-10; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 12:22:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (opera.rednote.net [70.84.142.212]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAC243B00F8; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 12:22:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5AGLvPF026152; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 16:21:57 GMT Received: (from janina@localhost) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k5AGLsVu026151; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 12:21:54 -0400 Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 12:21:54 -0400 From: Janina Sajka To: Orca screen reader developers Message-ID: <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Operating-System: Linux opera.rednote.net 2.6.16-1.2122_FC5spksmp Organization: Capital Accessibility LLC (http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com) X-PGP-Key: http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com/JaninaSajka_gpg_key.html X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.276 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.277, BAYES_50=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.276 X-Spam-Level: Cc: blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, speakup@braille.uwo.ca, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 16:22:02 -0000 Mike Pedersen writes: > We have been informed, however, that there can be only one screen > reader/magnifier in the GNOME desktop. > That's a rather outrageous attitude. Who made that decision? Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application? The day may come when there is but one screen reader on the GUI desktop, but I rather doubt it given that both Gnome and KDE are likely to remain with us. However, to proactively restrict inclusion while all manner of other (sometimes only half-baked) applications are included rankles. Frankly, it's an insult. This kind of grudging support for accessibility needs to be stopped right now. In fact, it's a stretch to even call it "support." Do these deciders wonder that people in Massachusetts got so upset last year over the simple move to an open file format. Given this kind of attitude, they'll never change their minds Always remember that just proclaiming, "we support accessibility," doesn't make it so. We will not judge by published proclamations but rather by deeds. -- Janina Sajka Phone: +1.240.715.1272 Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC http://CapitalAccessibility.Com Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada--Go to http://ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more. Chair, Accessibility Workgroup Free Standards Group (FSG) janina@freestandards.org http://a11y.org From henrik@ubuntu.com Sat Jun 10 15:04:59 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F0473B022A; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:04:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21539-04; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:04:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 114EF3B00D0; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:04:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.0.10] (henrik.gotadsl.co.uk [82.133.122.11]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F102339074; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 20:00:56 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 20:01:00 +0100 From: Henrik Nilsen Omma User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060522) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Orca screen reader developers References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> In-Reply-To: <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, speakup@braille.uwo.ca, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:04:59 -0000 Janina Sajka wrote: > Mike Pedersen writes: > >> We have been informed, however, that there can be only one screen >> reader/magnifier in the GNOME desktop. >> >> > That's a rather outrageous attitude. Who made that decision? > > Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media > player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application? > I think you may have misinterpreted this slightly. The idea is that there will only be one official screen reader in Gnome, as there indeed is only one email client (Evolution), one browser (Epiphany), one office suite (gnome office, using abiword and gnumeric). Distributions can, and do, change these defaults and users can install a whole range of options. In Ubuntu we include Firefox instead of Epiphany, OpenOffice instead of Gnome Office, etc. I see no problems with that. Currently we have Gnopernicus installed by default and Orca as an option. For our next release we will likely change that so that Orca becomes the default and Gnopernicus the option. We still package and support a wide range of options beyond that though and we are actively working on several new accessibility tools from scratch. > Frankly, it's an insult. This kind of grudging support for accessibility needs to be stopped right now. In fact, it's a stretch to even call it "support." > This may be true in some areas of the open source world still, that accessibility is an afterthought, but we are working to improve that. An important factor in becoming better at this is learning to collaborate better and work together on common tools. Choice is good in principle, but the price of fragmented effort can be high. Finally, I think you are complaining the wrong audience here (various accessibility lists). All these people are already on your side. If you want to make this complaint it should go to the main developer lists of gnome, redhat, ubuntu, etc. Though that said, I do actually think that gnome is right in their policy on this. Henrik Omma Ubuntu Accessibility Coordinator From aedil@alchar.org Sat Jun 10 15:36:39 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5629C3B0494 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:36:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23108-04 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:36:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from alchar.org (dsl081-071-219.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.71.219]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A24953B03AC for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:36:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 10120 invoked by uid 100); 10 Jun 2006 19:37:54 -0000 Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:37:54 -0400 From: Kris Van Hees To: Henrik Nilsen Omma Message-ID: <20060610193754.GC21840@alchar.org> Mail-Followup-To: Kris Van Hees , Henrik Nilsen Omma , Orca screen reader developers , blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, speakup@braille.uwo.ca, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.395 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, SPF_NEUTRAL=1.069] X-Spam-Score: -1.395 X-Spam-Level: Cc: speakup@braille.uwo.ca, Orca screen reader developers , blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:36:39 -0000 On Sat, Jun 10, 2006 at 08:01:00PM +0100, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > Janina Sajka wrote: > >Mike Pedersen writes: > >>We have been informed, however, that there can be only one screen > >>reader/magnifier in the GNOME desktop. > >> > >That's a rather outrageous attitude. Who made that decision? > > > >Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media > >player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application? > > > I think you may have misinterpreted this slightly. The idea is that > there will only be one official screen reader in Gnome, as there indeed > is only one email client (Evolution), one browser (Epiphany), one office > suite (gnome office, using abiword and gnumeric). Distributions can, and > do, change these defaults and users can install a whole range of options. Not to start a holy war, but a reasonable part of the audience that believes in an alternative to Microsoft Windows also supports the notion of *not* including various other applications and suites. While Gnome is surely not an OS, it seems rather weird (and potentially dangerous) to me to end up with a situation where Gnome has an official screen reader, an official mail client, etc... By including specific official applications and suites in Gnome, you're bound to get into a situation where a large group of people will end up simply sticking to the officially included applications and suites, either by choice (easier) or as mandated by an IT department that takes the "we only run the officially included stuff" approach (all too comon). And in the end... why not simply leave Gnome to be the desktop environment it is, and let users choose what they want? Why does there need to be one official choice, and optional alternatives? I can see where the general public falls for this, and how from a "let's pretend the user is stupid" perspective this can be considered "user-friendly", but I would hope that we (as a special interest group) can express a genuine concern about this type of policy to the powers that be (and that make this type of policy). Kris From janina@opera.rednote.net Sat Jun 10 19:51:16 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B5FA3B018D; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:51:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32643-07; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:51:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (opera.rednote.net [70.84.142.212]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D56C3B00BE; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:51:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5ANnceh017788; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:49:38 GMT Received: (from janina@localhost) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k5ANnb4C017787; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:49:37 -0400 Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:49:37 -0400 From: Janina Sajka To: Henrik Nilsen Omma Message-ID: <20060610234937.GO2259@rednote.net> References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Operating-System: Linux opera.rednote.net 2.6.16-1.2122_FC5spksmp Organization: Capital Accessibility LLC (http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com) X-PGP-Key: http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com/JaninaSajka_gpg_key.html X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.562 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.037, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.562 X-Spam-Level: Cc: speakup@braille.uwo.ca, Orca screen reader developers , blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:51:16 -0000 Henrik Nilsen Omma writes: > Janina Sajka wrote: > >Mike Pedersen writes: > > > >>We have been informed, however, that there can be only one screen > >>reader/magnifier in the GNOME desktop. > >> > >> > >That's a rather outrageous attitude. Who made that decision? > > > >Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media > >player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application? > > > I think you may have misinterpreted this slightly. The idea is that > there will only be one official screen reader in Gnome, as there indeed > is only one email client (Evolution), one browser (Epiphany), one office > suite (gnome office, using abiword and gnumeric). Distributions can, and > do, change these defaults and users can install a whole range of options. > So, it seems I have misunderstood the policy quite thoroughly. I apologize for that. I am not sure the policy of having only one of a kind makes much sense to me, but I certainly do not find discrimination in such a policy when it's even handidly applied across the board. > In Ubuntu we include Firefox instead of Epiphany, OpenOffice instead of > Gnome Office, etc. I see no problems with that. Currently we have > Gnopernicus installed by default and Orca as an option. For our next > release we will likely change that so that Orca becomes the default and > Gnopernicus the option. We still package and support a wide range of > options beyond that though and we are actively working on several new > accessibility tools from scratch. Yes, those are accessibility friendly substitutions, and Ubuntu is to be commended for this. > >Frankly, it's an insult. This kind of grudging support for accessibility > >needs to be stopped right now. In fact, it's a stretch to even call it > >"support." > > > This may be true in some areas of the open source world still, that > accessibility is an afterthought, but we are working to improve that. An > important factor in becoming better at this is learning to collaborate > better and work together on common tools. Choice is good in principle, > but the price of fragmented effort can be high. Indeed so, especially in edge cases such as AT apps On the other hand AT on the Linux GUI is still fairly new, and what approaches will prove truly successful for the user is still to be seen.. We certainly do need to work on cooperation and collaboration, but I suspect we're stronger if we support the option for alternative approaches. I suspect, for instance, that accessibility on the desktop is enhanced because KDE and Gnome were able to agree on the same messaging SPI, while continuing to remain autonomous and distinctive desktops. > > Finally, I think you are complaining the wrong audience here (various > accessibility lists). All these people are already on your side. If you > want to make this complaint it should go to the main developer lists of > gnome, redhat, ubuntu, etc. Though that said, I do actually think that > gnome is right in their policy on this. While I apologize for seeing injustice where there clearly isn't any, I still remain unconvinced that an "only one of a kind" policy is the smarter policy. Different issue, of course. Janina > > Henrik Omma > Ubuntu Accessibility Coordinator > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list -- Janina Sajka Phone: +1.240.715.1272 Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC http://CapitalAccessibility.Com Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada--Go to http://ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more. Chair, Accessibility Workgroup Free Standards Group (FSG) janina@freestandards.org http://a11y.org From janina@opera.rednote.net Sat Jun 10 19:59:29 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C29053B02E3; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:59:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00741-06; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:59:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (opera.rednote.net [70.84.142.212]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED43C3B01AE; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:59:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5ANwDVd017891; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:58:13 GMT Received: (from janina@localhost) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k5ANwAA3017890; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:58:10 -0400 Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:58:10 -0400 From: Janina Sajka To: Kris Van Hees , Henrik Nilsen Omma , Orca screen reader developers , blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, speakup@braille.uwo.ca, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060610235810.GP2259@rednote.net> References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> <20060610193754.GC21840@alchar.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060610193754.GC21840@alchar.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Operating-System: Linux opera.rednote.net 2.6.16-1.2122_FC5spksmp Organization: Capital Accessibility LLC (http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com) X-PGP-Key: http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com/JaninaSajka_gpg_key.html X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.565 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.034, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.565 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:59:30 -0000 Thanks, Kris, for getting at the real issue that I missed. I must indeed agree with you. I, for one, am glad that there are dozens of sopas at the store, and several airlines to fly across the Atlantic. I understand it's harder to support choice in distributions and desktops, but I believe it's essential so to do, if for no other reason than it makes us think harder to get the important things right. It's not important that we all use the same email client, for instance, but it is important that we can read email from anyone. I believe the latter is at risk when we allow ourselves the ease of the former. Janina Kris Van Hees writes: > On Sat, Jun 10, 2006 at 08:01:00PM +0100, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > > Janina Sajka wrote: > > >Mike Pedersen writes: > > >>We have been informed, however, that there can be only one screen > > >>reader/magnifier in the GNOME desktop. > > >> > > >That's a rather outrageous attitude. Who made that decision? > > > > > >Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media > > >player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application? > > > > > I think you may have misinterpreted this slightly. The idea is that > > there will only be one official screen reader in Gnome, as there indeed > > is only one email client (Evolution), one browser (Epiphany), one office > > suite (gnome office, using abiword and gnumeric). Distributions can, and > > do, change these defaults and users can install a whole range of options. > > Not to start a holy war, but a reasonable part of the audience that believes in > an alternative to Microsoft Windows also supports the notion of *not* including > various other applications and suites. While Gnome is surely not an OS, it > seems rather weird (and potentially dangerous) to me to end up with a situation > where Gnome has an official screen reader, an official mail client, etc... > By including specific official applications and suites in Gnome, you're bound > to get into a situation where a large group of people will end up simply > sticking to the officially included applications and suites, either by choice > (easier) or as mandated by an IT department that takes the "we only run the > officially included stuff" approach (all too comon). > > And in the end... why not simply leave Gnome to be the desktop environment it > is, and let users choose what they want? Why does there need to be one > official choice, and optional alternatives? I can see where the general public > falls for this, and how from a "let's pretend the user is stupid" perspective > this can be considered "user-friendly", but I would hope that we (as a special > interest group) can express a genuine concern about this type of policy to > the powers that be (and that make this type of policy). > > Kris > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list -- Janina Sajka Phone: +1.240.715.1272 Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC http://CapitalAccessibility.Com Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada--Go to http://ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more. Chair, Accessibility Workgroup Free Standards Group (FSG) janina@freestandards.org http://a11y.org From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Sat Jun 10 20:41:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 176D53B0333; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 20:41:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01799-06; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 20:41:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E8193B000B; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 20:41:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5B0eQlh002102; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:40:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0O00301724OH00@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM); Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.23.100] by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0O00MYQ77DT140@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:40:23 -0700 From: Peter Korn In-reply-to: <20060610193754.GC21840@alchar.org> Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: Kris Van Hees , Henrik Nilsen Omma , Orca screen reader developers , blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, speakup@braille.uwo.ca, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-id: <448B6677.2010400@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> <20060610193754.GC21840@alchar.org> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.532 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.066, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.532 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:41:51 -0000 Greetings, To toss my $0.02 into this discussion... It has proven very useful to the GNOME accessibility project - and to advancing the support for assistive technologies and the implementation of ATK and AT-SPI - to have a screen reader, screen magnifier, and on-screen keyboard included as a formal part of GNOME. By 'blessing' AT in these categories, it has brought far greater awareness of AT to GNOME developers & UNIX distributions, and has led to a lot of compatibility testing, bug finding, and bug fixing. Given that it is general GNOME policy to make one product in any given category the 'default' product that a formal part of the GNOME desktop, I am personally delighted that they have chosen to create such a category for screen reader, screen magnifier, on-screen keyboard, and text-input alternative (Dasher). Regards, Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. > On Sat, Jun 10, 2006 at 08:01:00PM +0100, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > >> Janina Sajka wrote: >> >>> Mike Pedersen writes: >>> >>>> We have been informed, however, that there can be only one screen >>>> reader/magnifier in the GNOME desktop. >>>> >>>> >>> That's a rather outrageous attitude. Who made that decision? >>> >>> Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media >>> player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application? >>> >>> >> I think you may have misinterpreted this slightly. The idea is that >> there will only be one official screen reader in Gnome, as there indeed >> is only one email client (Evolution), one browser (Epiphany), one office >> suite (gnome office, using abiword and gnumeric). Distributions can, and >> do, change these defaults and users can install a whole range of options. >> > > Not to start a holy war, but a reasonable part of the audience that believes in > an alternative to Microsoft Windows also supports the notion of *not* including > various other applications and suites. While Gnome is surely not an OS, it > seems rather weird (and potentially dangerous) to me to end up with a situation > where Gnome has an official screen reader, an official mail client, etc... > By including specific official applications and suites in Gnome, you're bound > to get into a situation where a large group of people will end up simply > sticking to the officially included applications and suites, either by choice > (easier) or as mandated by an IT department that takes the "we only run the > officially included stuff" approach (all too comon). > > And in the end... why not simply leave Gnome to be the desktop environment it > is, and let users choose what they want? Why does there need to be one > official choice, and optional alternatives? I can see where the general public > falls for this, and how from a "let's pretend the user is stupid" perspective > this can be considered "user-friendly", but I would hope that we (as a special > interest group) can express a genuine concern about this type of policy to > the powers that be (and that make this type of policy). > > Kris > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > From j.schmude@gmail.com Sat Jun 10 22:51:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23ED53B05B3 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 22:51:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06037-02 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 22:51:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.202]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE23C3B0588 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 22:51:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id x7so970474nzc for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:50:26 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:content-type:to:from:subject:date:x-mailer; b=FkqiqwKYV6jqK72JUrYg6R4e7hAicwZR5NrV2Ya/FTkAp+FAActyboT3lmnBTCnhOO8zyQRZQqb0J0UP6tn8AxcJBBUNVRInZ90Hy9BvWFsvwF37FNONyt7PwEuLcs3TOK+3uGZ/mAdzwmuvbgn8mb1ql7peqrgAsgKNgjZAhjs= Received: by 10.36.215.18 with SMTP id n18mr6512883nzg; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.0.11? ( [70.162.106.212]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 37sm786308nzf.2006.06.10.19.21.46; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <4E366E31-2C86-4DB3-AEC7-99660ACF8047@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org (Gnome accessibility ) From: Jacob Schmude Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:27:49 -0700 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Orca and 3rd party Emacspeak Servers X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 02:51:03 -0000 Hi everyone I thought I'd try the emacspeak server support in Orca to see if it would use my doubletalk LT synth. However, Orca only lists the speech servers that come standard with Emacspeak. The emacspeak-ss package add support for many more synthesizers than simply dectalk varients. Is there a way to get these listed in Orca as well or, failing that, have perhaps an "other" option in the list that would allow me to enter a different speech server? I'm going to play with it a bit, maybe I can edit the settings file to make it run anyway. Thanks From dmehler26@woh.rr.com Sun Jun 11 00:12:17 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DC9E3B03FB for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:12:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09104-04 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:12:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ms-smtp-03.ohiordc.rr.com (ms-smtp-03.ohiordc.rr.com [65.24.5.137]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B9C33B00A6 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:12:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from satellite (cpe-65-31-41-159.woh.res.rr.com [65.31.41.159]) by ms-smtp-03.ohiordc.rr.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id k5B3QTul013111 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:26:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <00af01c68d05$29efeba0$0200a8c0@satellite> From: "Dave" To: Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:14:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.069 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=1.069, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001, TW_CV=0.077, TW_DL=0.077, TW_GD=0.077, TW_GT=0.077, TW_LG=0.077, TW_VF=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -1.069 X-Spam-Level: Subject: gnopernicus, java, and access bridge on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Dave List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 04:12:17 -0000 Hello, My name is Dave. I'm a sysadmin with six years Unix experience, FreeBSD and Linux mostly. So far my experience has been with setting up server platforms for FreeBSD for the purposes of this message and not workstations requiring x. A while back when i did it using XFree86 i was unsuccessful. Now i want to replace some Linux fc4 workstations with FreeBSD. I've got xorg configured, gnome starting, and gnopernicus up and running. I'm almost certain i don't have all the accessibility hooks turned on, but i will undoubtedly learn about those as i investigate apps. I want to do as many installs using the FreeBSD ports infrastructure as i feel this would make system upkeep much easier. I'd like access to java apps, using the access bridge. I've installed the jdk 1.5, but when i atempt to compile access bridge i am getting "Error illegal option x" The full output of the compilation atempt is below. If anyone has this working i'd appreciate hearing from you. I'd eventually like to have access to openoffice2 using java as well. Thanks. Dave. compilation: # ./configure checking for a BSD-compatible install... /usr/bin/install -c checking whether build environment is sane... yes checking whether make sets $(MAKE)... yes checking for working aclocal-1.4... missing checking for working autoconf... missing checking for working automake-1.4... missing checking for working autoheader... missing checking for working makeinfo... found checking for java... java checking JDK version... 1.5.0 checking for javac... javac JRE_HOME appears to be /usr/local/bin/jre checking for idlj... idlj checking for jar... jar checking for pkg-config... /usr/local/bin/pkg-config checking for bonobo-activation-2.0 libspi-1.0 >= 1.7.0... yes checking JAVA_BRIDGE_CFLAGS... -DORBIT2=1 -D_REENTRANT -DXTHREADS -DXUSE_MTSAFE_API -I/usr/local/include/bonobo-activation-2.0 -I/usr/local/include/glib-2.0 -I/usr/local/lib/glib-2.0/include -I/usr/local/include/orbit-2.0 -I/usr/local/include/libbonobo-2.0 -I/usr/local/include/atk-1.0 -I/usr/local/include/cairo -I/usr/X11R6/include/at-spi-1.0 -I/usr/X11R6/include/gtk-2.0 -I/usr/X11R6/lib/gtk-2.0/include -I/usr/X11R6/include/pango-1.0 -I/usr/X11R6/include -I/usr/local/include/freetype2 -I/usr/local/include checking JAVA_BRIDGE_LIBS... -pthread -Wl,--rpath -Wl,/usr/local/lib -L/usr/local/lib -L/usr/X11R6/lib -lspi -lbonobo-2 -lgtk-x11-2.0 -lbonobo-activation -lORBit-2 -lgthread-2.0 -lgdk-x11-2.0 -lXrandr -lXi -lXinerama -latk-1.0 -lgdk_pixbuf-2.0 -lpangocairo-1.0 -lXcursor -lXfixes -lcairo -lpangoft2-1.0 -lfontconfig -lfreetype -lz -lpango-1.0 -lm -lXrender -lX11 -lXext -lgobject-2.0 -lgmodule-2.0 -lglib-2.0 -liconv configure: creating ./config.status config.status: creating Makefile config.status: creating idlgen/Makefile config.status: creating idlgen/org/Makefile config.status: creating idlgen/org/GNOME/Makefile config.status: creating idlgen/org/GNOME/Accessibility/Makefile config.status: creating idlgen/org/GNOME/Bonobo/Makefile config.status: creating util/Makefile config.status: creating util/org/Makefile config.status: creating util/org/GNOME/Makefile config.status: creating util/org/GNOME/Accessibility/Makefile config.status: creating impl/Makefile config.status: creating impl/org/Makefile config.status: creating impl/org/GNOME/Makefile config.status: creating impl/org/GNOME/Accessibility/Makefile config.status: creating impl/org/GNOME/Bonobo/Makefile config.status: creating bridge/Makefile config.status: creating bridge/org/Makefile config.status: creating bridge/org/GNOME/Makefile config.status: creating bridge/org/GNOME/Accessibility/Makefile config.status: creating at-client/Makefile config.status: creating at-client/org/Makefile config.status: creating at-client/org/GNOME/Makefile config.status: creating at-client/org/GNOME/Accessibility/Makefile config.status: creating registry/Makefile config.status: creating registry/org/Makefile config.status: creating registry/org/GNOME/Makefile config.status: creating registry/org/GNOME/Accessibility/Makefile config.status: creating test/Makefile [root@titan /usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0]# gmake Making all in idlgen gmake[1]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen' Making all in org gmake[2]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org' Making all in GNOME gmake[3]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME' Making all in Accessibility gmake[4]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Accessibility' gmake[4]: Nothing to be done for `all'. gmake[4]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Accessibility' Making all in Bonobo gmake[4]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Bonobo' gmake[4]: Nothing to be done for `all'. gmake[4]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Bonobo' gmake[4]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME' gmake[4]: Nothing to be done for `all-am'. gmake[4]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME' gmake[3]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME' gmake[3]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org' gmake[3]: Nothing to be done for `all-am'. gmake[3]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org' gmake[2]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org' gmake[2]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen' idlj \ -pkgPrefix Bonobo org.GNOME \ -pkgPrefix Accessibility org.GNOME \ -emitAll -i /usr/local/share/idl/bonobo-activation-2.0 -i /usr/X11R6/share/gnome/idl/at-spi-1.0 -i /usr/local/share/idl/bonobo-2.0 \ -fallTie /usr/X11R6/share/gnome/idl/at-spi-1.0/Accessibility.idl com.sun.tools.corba.se.idl.InvalidArgument: Invalid rgument: -XX:+UseMembar. Compiler Usage: java com.sun.tools.corba.se.idl.toJavaPortable.Compile [options] where is the name of a file containing IDL definitions, and [options] is any combination of the options listed below. The options are optional and may appear in any order; is required and must appear last. Options: -d This is equivalent to the following line in an IDL file: #define -emitAll Emit all types, including those found in #included files. -f Define what bindings to emit. is one of client, server, all, serverTIE, allTIE. serverTIE and allTIE cause delegate model skeletons to be emitted. If this flag is not used, -fclient is assumed. -i By default, the current directory is scanned for included files. This option adds another directory. -keep If a file to be generated already exists, do not overwrite it. By default it is overwritten. -noWarn Suppress warnings. -oldImplBase Generate skeletons compatible with old (pre-1.4) JDK ORBs. -pkgPrefix When the type or module name is encountered at file scope, begin the Java package name for all files generated for with . -pkgTranslate When the type or module name in encountered, replace it with in the generated java package. Note that pkgPrefix changes are made first. must match the full package name exactly. Also, must not be org, org.omg, or any subpackage of org.omg. -skeletonName Name the skeleton according to the pattern. The defaults are: %POA for the POA base class (-fserver or -fall) _%ImplBase for the oldImplBase base class (-oldImplBase and (-fserver or -fall)). -td use for the output directory instead of the current directory. -tieName Name the tie according to the pattern. The defaults are: %POATie for the POA tie (-fserverTie or -fallTie) %_Tie for the oldImplBase tie (-oldImplBase and (-fserverTie or -fallTie)). -v, -verbose Verbose mode. -version Display the version number and quit. gmake[3]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Bonobo' gmake[3]: Nothing to be done for `all'. gmake[3]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Bonobo' gmake[3]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Accessibility' gmake[3]: Nothing to be done for `all'. gmake[3]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Accessibility' touch ../jar-stamp touch ../jar-stamp jar cf ../gnome-java-bridge.jar org/GNOME/Bonobo/*.class org/GNOME/Accessibility/*.class Illegal option: X Usage: jar {ctxu}[vfm0Mi] [jar-file] [manifest-file] [-C dir] files ... Options: -c create new archive -t list table of contents for archive -x extract named (or all) files from archive -u update existing archive -v generate verbose output on standard output -f specify archive file name -m include manifest information from specified manifest file -0 store only; use no ZIP compression -M do not create a manifest file for the entries -i generate index information for the specified jar files -C change to the specified directory and include the following file If any file is a directory then it is processed recursively. The manifest file name and the archive file name needs to be specified in the same order the 'm' and 'f' flags are specified. Example 1: to archive two class files into an archive called classes.jar: jar cvf classes.jar Foo.class Bar.class Example 2: use an existing manifest file 'mymanifest' and archive all the files in the foo/ directory into 'classes.jar': jar cvfm classes.jar mymanifest -C foo/ . gmake[2]: *** [../gnome-java-bridge.jar] Error 1 gmake[2]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen' gmake[1]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1 gmake[1]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen' gmake: *** [all-recursive] Error 1 From henrik@ubuntu.com Sun Jun 11 07:38:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FC053B0641; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 07:38:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07029-08; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 07:38:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17EBD3B0168; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 07:38:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.0.10] (henrik.gotadsl.co.uk [82.133.122.11]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7428339335; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 12:37:30 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <448C007D.9030400@ubuntu.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 12:37:33 +0100 From: Henrik Nilsen Omma User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060522) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Orca screen reader developers References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> <20060610193754.GC21840@alchar.org> <448B6677.2010400@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <448B6677.2010400@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.593 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.006, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.593 X-Spam-Level: Cc: blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, speakup@braille.uwo.ca, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 11:38:41 -0000 Peter Korn wrote: > It has proven very useful to the GNOME accessibility project - and to > advancing the support for assistive technologies and the > implementation of ATK and AT-SPI - to have a screen reader, screen > magnifier, and on-screen keyboard included as a formal part of GNOME. > By 'blessing' AT in these categories, it has brought far greater > awareness of AT to GNOME developers & UNIX distributions, and has led > to a lot of compatibility testing, bug finding, and bug fixing. We have seen the effects of this esp. in the last release cycle when we have now managed to get a range of accessibility tools into the default install and running from the Live CD. Other developers, such as those specialising in the Live CD, the installer and the Gnome desktop have taken an interest and are helping us solve the problems. For our next development cycle we now have several specifications on the main development track (see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Specs) I think custom distributions like Oralux can focus on adding as much assistive technology as possible to a single CD and let the user explore it all. For a main stream distro though, I think we need to make choices about what we consider to be most suitable at this time, and leave the rest as options. Picking favourites is actually an important part of what we do because it allows us to focus our efforts better on providing support and fixes on those packages. - Henrik From William.Walker@Sun.COM Sun Jun 11 19:53:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C98A93B00BC; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 19:53:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09467-02; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 19:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 656553B00B7; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 19:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fe-amer-06.sun.com ([192.18.108.180]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5BNqQ6B020577; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:52:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0P00M01Y1KY900@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from William.Walker@Sun.COM); Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:52:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.1.105] ([68.116.197.173]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0P0097BZN5LTZ1@mail-amer.sun.com>; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:52:26 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 19:52:16 -0400 From: Willie Walker Sender: William.Walker@Sun.COM To: orca-list@gnome.org, gnome-announce-list@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-id: <1150069937.5071.4.camel@localhost> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.587 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.011, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.587 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Announcing Orca 0.2.5 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 23:53:34 -0000 ================ * What is Orca ? ================ Orca is a scriptable screen reader for the GNOME desktop for people with visual impairments. ================== * What's changed ? ================== We've done a lot of work on Orca since the last release in both the new functionality and quality/stability departments. We thank all of our users that are providing feedback on gnome-list@gnome.org (see http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list) as well as http://bugzilla.gnome.org. We value all of your feedback and help. We also appreciate contributions from community members, including Al Puzzuoli who is doing a great job helping with the Orca Wiki at http://live.gnome.org/Orca and Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez who has been testing and providing patches. Thank you all! ================== Orca 0.2.5 Changes ================== * Re-map keyboard bindings and add additional keyboard bindings. See http://live.gnome.org/Orca/KeyboardCommands for the list. * Improvements to StarOffice support to provide better access to text documents and spreadsheets. Also get rid of spurious "0.00" text that was showing up in braille for StarOffice buttons. * Addition of announcing text selection as it is selected and unselected. * Generalize the "read table cell row" functionality. If you press Insert+F11, it will toggle the feature to read the entire row of a table or just the selected table cell when you move from row to row. * Improved support for SayAll of text objects (SayAll for flat review is still on the to do list). * Addition of self-voicing module to tell Orca to be quiet when a self-voicing application is present. * Addition of ability to turn Orca into a speech server that can accessed via simple HTTP commands (default port is 20433, but this is customizable via orca.settings.speechServerPort). This will allow self-voicing applications to use Orca for their speech, thus letting them get the user's speech settings preferences. * Addition of orca.settings.enableBrailleGrouping (default=False). NOTE: this represents a change in the UI for Orca - the behavior to date has been to always group menu items on the braille display. The system responsiveness was bad for large menus, however, so we decided to make this an optional feature turned off by default. * Addition of utility to report information on the currently active script. This is primarily for helping script writers do debugging and is accessed by pressing Insert+F3. * Addition of orca.settings.cacheAccessibles (default=True) as a means to turn the local caching of accessible objects on or off. This is primarily an Orca developer debugging feature. * Fix for bug 344218 - gnome-terminal would not be presented properly if it was started after Orca. * Fix for bug 343666: pressing buttons on braille displays could cause a hang. * Partial fix for bug 342022 - provide some defensive mechanisms to help prevent some hangs. * Fix for bug 343133 - do not hang when doing a flat-review of a man page in gnome-terminal. * Fix for bug #343013 - the command line option strings should not be translatable. * Partial fix for bug 319652 - become a better Python thread citizen to help reduce hangs. * Fix for bug 342303 - stop speech when the user presses the mouse button. * Fix for bug 342122 - use all labels for an objecty when presenting an object. * Fix for bug 342133 - do not read all labels in gnome-window-properties application when it appears. * Fix for bug 341415 - when moving between workspaces with metacity, eliminate redundant output and alsomake sure workspace names are announced. * Refactor of various modules to move script writing utilities into util.py. * More fleshing out of the test plan. ====================== * Where can I get it ? ====================== Source code: http://ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/sources/orca/0.2/orca-0.2.5.tar.gz Enjoy. Will, Mike, Rich, Lynn, and the Orca community From rd@baum.ro Mon Jun 12 04:21:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B89BD3B00EC for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 04:21:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26018-07 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 04:21:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from main.baum.ro (dnt-gw-baum.dnttm.ro [83.103.190.186]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E47273B00D4 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 04:21:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.0.104] ([82.77.32.51]) by main.baum.ro (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5C7d8Yc010617; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 10:39:08 +0300 From: remus draica To: Dave In-Reply-To: <00af01c68d05$29efeba0$0200a8c0@satellite> References: <00af01c68d05$29efeba0$0200a8c0@satellite> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:20:40 -0400 Message-Id: <1150125641.4877.19.camel@ubuntu> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.573 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.854, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_FUTURE_06_12=1.668, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, TW_DL=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -1.573 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: gnopernicus, java, and access bridge on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 08:21:40 -0000 Hi, > checking for java... java > checking JDK version... 1.5.0 > checking for javac... javac > JRE_HOME appears to be /usr/local/bin/jre > checking for idlj... idlj > checking for jar... jar Because you have installed a new java version, is possible to have 2 versions. so, check if all files above are from same distribution, or run ./configure --with-java-home=/path to jdk Regards, Remus From tward1978@earthlink.net Mon Jun 12 15:30:53 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 912973B0100 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:30:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27449-05 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:30:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-gadwall.atl.sa.earthlink.net (pop-gadwall.atl.sa.earthlink.net [207.69.195.61]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB3063B0010 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:30:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dialup-4.224.186.21.dial1.cincinnati1.level3.net ([4.224.186.21]) by pop-gadwall.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1Fps6b-0002fm-00; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:29:45 -0400 Message-ID: <448DC0AE.3030302@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:29:50 -0400 From: Thomas Ward User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave References: <00af01c68d05$29efeba0$0200a8c0@satellite> In-Reply-To: <00af01c68d05$29efeba0$0200a8c0@satellite> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.943 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.456] X-Spam-Score: -0.943 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: gnopernicus, java, and access bridge on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 19:30:53 -0000 Hello, Dave. Gnome has three different areas of access which can be turned on or off depending on the level of accessibility you are aiming for. The first is controled by gconf. When you answer yes to accessibility when gnopernicus first loads the following key is set to true gconftool-2 --set "/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility" --type boolean "True") I haven't tested this lately, but if you type that key in to a standard bash shell prompt it would equal answering yes to the do you want access turned on when gnopernicus starts. The second flag which you can set turns the atk-bridge on for apps such as gaim which won't work without it. To turn the atk-bridge on add this line to the end of your home .bash_profile. export GTK_MODULES=gail:atk-bridge Assuming you have java access bridge installed, which I know you don't at this time, you can create a .orbitrc file in your home directory with gedit, nano, or another favorite text editor and add the following line. ORBIIOPIPv4=1 I'm not sure if you still need this as it has been a while since I did an update on everything, but to work with open office you needed to set SAL_ACCESSIBILITY_ENABLED=1 to get full access to OpenOffice.org. Hope this helps. From lists@digitaldarragh.com Tue Jun 13 04:23:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03BC73B000C for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 04:23:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15398-07 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 04:23:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.webhost.ie (mail.webhost.ie [83.138.8.74]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B51923B000A for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 04:23:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by mail.webhost.ie (Merak 8.3.8) with SMTP id ROJ35911 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:22:11 +0100 Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:22:11 +0100 From: Darragh To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <58fe54a1f8137f5466e7e91769d78df1@digitaldarragh.com> X-Mailer: IceWarp Web Mail 5.6.1 X-Originating-IP: 82.1.217.193 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.62 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.880, BAYES_20=-0.74] X-Spam-Score: -1.62 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Orca or Gnopernicus on a distro like Slax? X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 08:23:12 -0000 Hello all, I know slax uses KDE as its default window manager but do any of you know of another distro that works from a usb drive with the latest version of Gnome that will allow me to install Orca or Gnopernicus? Thanks Darragh Ó Héiligh Web development, O/S and Application technical support. Website: http://www.digitaldarragh.com From enrico@enricozini.org Tue Jun 13 17:50:15 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 104BB3B03CF for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:50:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07729-05 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:50:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agnus.ngi.it (agnus.ngi.it [88.149.128.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 917753B00C4 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:50:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eddie.casa (81-174-12-206.f5.ngi.it [81.174.12.206]) by agnus.ngi.it (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5DLllUw007997; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:47:48 +0200 Received: from eddie.casa (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eddie.casa (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A91230011E; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:47:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from marvin.casa (marvin.casa [192.168.1.2]) by eddie.casa (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F53430011D; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:47:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from enrico by marvin.casa with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1FqGjk-0002Ze-00; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:47:48 +0200 Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:47:47 +0200 From: Enrico Zini To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060613214747.GA4897@marvin.casa> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com References: <20060610092255.GA9803@marvin.casa> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060610092255.GA9803@marvin.casa> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060403 Sender: Enrico Zini X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.446 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.446 X-Spam-Level: Cc: ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Re: Fixing brittle speech support on Dapper X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 21:50:15 -0000 --ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline On Sat, Jun 10, 2006 at 11:22:55AM +0200, Enrico Zini wrote: > - speech doesn't work anymore. test-speech exits with: > Exception Unknown CORBA exception id: 'IDL:omg.org/CORBA/COMM_FAILURE:1.0' getting voice list. I've been waiting but sadly noone answered so far. I tried reinstalling from scratch in another computer, and I can trivially reproduce the speech server lockup there as well: 1) Fresh Ubuntu Dapper, apt-get install festlex-ifd festvox-italp16k festvox-itapc16k (from universe) 2) go to gnopernicus Preferences/Speech/Voices/Modify absolute values 3) choose "Festival GNOME Speech Driver" as a driver, "V2 lp_diphone" as the voice. Apply setting for all voices. 4) close the window. The voice stops. test-speech hangs after selecting the festival server. Please help me to find some clues on fixing this: it took us years to get GPL Festival voices for Italian, and now we could easily turn them into an accessible localised desktop, if it weren't for this. Ciao, Enrico -- GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini --ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEjzKD9LSwzHl+v6sRAuVyAJwI3dqpDwnrS8qq/ABGqUJdsmgJ5gCff+/n q3ZtW+3tVh14q1n0aG0Yv4U= =6lsv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q-- From ermengol@gmail.com Tue Jun 13 19:28:37 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 962923B021A for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 19:28:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09625-09 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 19:28:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.187]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D88D83B01C5 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 19:28:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id y38so1070382nfb for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 16:27:04 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=XgBruegOpLZfMFjVd1bPz7yhVNs2CnoRcO+dGHnDzPiAvdXBFd2k/1e+WEfiVvy0xfFcU9Hv2NP59uG70HF+eibs6v8uIl7c00uqcwS8i1AdUwQxnYqqmuVQR2e9xmGoF7pTOYlpYkfeD0r45ZHY9rsNBDc0CMZCXDZEvXBn9Hg= Received: by 10.49.68.20 with SMTP id v20mr7621nfk; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 16:27:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.48.208.11 with HTTP; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 16:27:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 01:27:04 +0200 From: "Ermengol Bota" To: "Peter Korn" In-Reply-To: <448911DC.4090607@sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <448911DC.4090607@sun.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: gnopernicus-magnifier. Full screen magnifier with dummy driver X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:28:37 -0000 2006/6/9, Peter Korn : > This is a problem with our current magnification architecture. We are > looking forward to magnifiers that are based on several X extensions - > most especially the COMPOSITE extension - which will allow us to avoid > this bit of hackery. Unfortunately we aren't quite ready with those yet. Thanks for all the answers. I know (i just read its web) that Composite does (will do?) more things, not only full screen magnifier, but at least on suse based distro's there is a modifier for xorg that enables to add "virtual resolution". So, you can define the screen resolution (1024x768) and then the virtual resolution 1600x1200 (the resolution for the desktop). This way it works like full screen magnifier. I've done it with SaX2 application (YaST2), but it just adds a new entry " Virtual 1600 1200" on each subsection "Display" of section "Screen" The differences i've seen so far are mainly all the functionalities that gnome-mag can do: change cursor, change the way screen move.... But may be it's an easier way to magnify the screen :-) Thanks for all -- * Ermengol * /*********************************************** * Els ordinadors no resolen problemes, * * simplement executen solucions. * ************************************************/ From themuso@themuso.com Wed Jun 14 09:44:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 189183B00FA; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 09:44:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23247-06; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 09:44:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vscan03.westnet.com.au (vscan03.westnet.com.au [203.10.1.142]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE6883B0133; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 09:44:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70444B60BFC; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 21:43:27 +0800 (WST) Received: from vscan03.westnet.com.au ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (vscan03.westnet.com.au [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04093-05; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 21:43:27 +0800 (WST) Received: from themuso.com (dsl-202-173-132-131.nsw.westnet.com.au [202.173.132.131]) by vscan03.westnet.com.au (Postfix) with SMTP id E0F6AB60BCC; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 21:43:26 +0800 (WST) Received: (nullmailer pid 26322 invoked by uid 1000); Wed, 14 Jun 2006 13:43:40 -0000 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 23:43:40 +1000 To: Gnome Accessibility List , Orca screen reader developers , Ubuntu Accessibility Mailing List Subject: Orca 0.2.5, and LSR 0.2.1 packages available. Message-ID: <20060614134340.GA26307@themuso.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 From: Luke Yelavich X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.415 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.049, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.415 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 13:44:36 -0000 --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all I am happy to announce that packages for both LSR 0.2.1, and orca 0.2.5=20 are available for Ubuntu dapper. To use them, put the following line in=20 your /etc/apt/sources.list file deb http://www.themuso.com/ubuntu/accessibility dapper universe Then run sudo apt-get update, and sudo apt-get install gnome-orca or lsr=20 depending on which package you want. Packages exist for both i386 and powerpc. If people want amd64 packages,=20 if you could possibly give me access to an amd64 box, I would be happy=20 to get them built and make them available. You can also access the source packages, should you want to know how=20 they are built. Add the following line to /etc/apt/sources.list deb-src http://www.themuso.com/ubuntu/accessibility dapper universe Enjoy! --=20 Luke Yelavich GPG key: 0xD06320CE=20 (http://www.themuso.com/themuso-gpg-key.txt) Email & MSN: themuso@themuso.com ICQ: 18444344 Jabber: themuso@jabber.org.au --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEkBKMjVefwtBjIM4RAl8WAJ98WHZSVlRtkZDRTRHmoFHg+xOmoACdFdmN 3VXNeYNIFaN6NUgtvG0epkQ= =bj1o -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o-- From janina@opera.rednote.net Wed Jun 14 12:17:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08CF33B0156; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:17:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28336-10; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:17:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (opera.rednote.net [70.84.142.212]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2375F3B03DA; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:17:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5EGH5iU007764; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 16:17:05 GMT Received: (from janina@localhost) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k5EGH5N6007763; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:17:05 -0400 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:17:05 -0400 From: Janina Sajka To: Willie Walker Subject: Re: Announcing Orca 0.2.5 rpms Message-ID: <20060614161705.GW2259@rednote.net> References: <1150069937.5071.4.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1150069937.5071.4.camel@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Operating-System: Linux opera.rednote.net 2.6.16-1.2122_FC5spksmp Organization: Capital Accessibility LLC (http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com) X-PGP-Key: http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com/JaninaSajka_gpg_key.html X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.569 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.030, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.569 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-announce-list@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, orca-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 16:17:56 -0000 rpm packages of Orca-0.2.5 for Fedora Core 5 are now available from: ftp://SpeakupModified.Org/fedora/rednote/ The binary is under RPMS, and the source under SRPMS as usual with Fedora. Installation There is yet some unresolved dependency issue with these rpms, so they probably will need to be installed using the --nodeps option as follows: rpm -Uv --nodeps orca-0.2.5-1.i386.rpm However, I can attest the resulting installation works for me on two different systems. I have first run: orca -t from the console, as the same user I am in the gui desktop. Once on the desktop, I have issued Alt-F2 and typed: orca -t again to get things started. Seems wrong, but is working for me on two systems. Special Note: You may need to upgrade your Gnome Desktop to Fedora Development. If you find things not working with the current release and updated Gnome environment, try: yum --disablerepo='*' --enablerepo=development groupupdate 'GNOME Desktop Environment' Note the above command is issued on one line, though it's probably been broken into at least two lines in this email message. -- Janina Sajka Phone: +1.240.715.1272 Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC http://CapitalAccessibility.Com Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada--Go to http://ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more. Chair, Accessibility Workgroup Free Standards Group (FSG) janina@freestandards.org http://a11y.org From aaronleventhal@moonset.net Wed Jun 14 11:07:53 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBFD43B0156 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:07:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01652-09 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:07:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.lnh.mail.rcn.net (smtp01.lnh.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 191C33B0120 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:07:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 207-180-148-92.c3-0.arl-ubr2.sbo-arl.ma.cable.rcn.com (HELO [192.168.0.6]) ([207.180.148.92]) by smtp01.lnh.mail.rcn.net with ESMTP; 14 Jun 2006 11:08:29 -0400 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.06,132,1149480000"; d="scan'208"; a="222292815:sNHT26602784" Message-ID: <4490260C.6030606@moonset.net> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:06:52 -0400 From: Aaron Leventhal User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: mozilla.dev.accessibility Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Major rewrite will break trunk temporarily Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 03:15:26 -0400 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 15:07:54 -0000 Work is progressing on https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=340829 This is a major rewrite which will remove nsAccessibleText, nsAcessibleEditableText and nsAccessibleHyperText classes, and move that code into a new cross platform class called nsHyperTextAccessible. Please be informed that when this goes in, it will take about a month for the trunk to stabilize. This does not affect the MOZILLA_1_8 branch which is being used to develop Firefox 2. This rewrite will ultimately find its way into Firefox 3 due out in 2007. When the smoke clears, we will have something very close to this: http://www.mozilla.org/access/unix/new-atk - Aaron From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Wed Jun 21 08:16:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 609D73B0F9B for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:16:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03164-08 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:16:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.186]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80AAF3B0D58 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:16:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id h2so80984nfe for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.34.19 with SMTP id m19mr514346nfj; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.30.13 with HTTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:16:15 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" Sender: skating.tortoise@gmail.com To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, ubuntu-accessibility Subject: Slow keys dialog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Google-Sender-Auth: 7fa2bf341aa83a4f X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.361 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.239, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.361 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:16:18 -0000 I've implemented sticky keys in my onscreen keyboard. When shift is stuck down it causes the slow keys dialogue to appear. Is there a way to suppress this dialog whilst my app is running? thanks -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From bmustillrose@gmail.com Wed Jun 21 08:48:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C35B3B0FF1 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:48:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05586-09 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:48:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.189]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07BC83B0F9B for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:48:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id h2so84606nfe for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:48:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.81.12 with SMTP id i12mr543988nfl; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:48:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.48.42.2 with HTTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:48:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4285e65e0606210548m58845a3el9847e55d8d3f64b5@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:48:41 +0100 From: "ben mustill-rose" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Gnopernicus Not talking on ubuntu 6.06 desktop MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:48:52 -0000 Hi. I installed ubuntu 6.06 desktop on a laptop some time ago and with that i downloaded speech since i'm blind. The thing is, half the time when i log in, it doesn't talk. To fix this, i will have to restart the computer again and again. There doesn't seem to be any patton regarding how many times i have to restart, which is kinda annoying. When it does start talking, its to slow, is there a hotkey to change the speech? And lastly, is there anything that i should kno if i am moving from hal to gnopernicus? Any help would be great, i'm new to linux so i dunno if i gave all the right info, but if not, just ask. KR, BEN. From javier@tiflolinux.org Wed Jun 21 14:16:58 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD2ED3B009F for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:16:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27974-05 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:16:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tiflolinux.org (unknown [82.158.40.139]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 191AA3B0095 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:16:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (uid 503) by tiflolinux.org with local; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 20:29:33 +0200 id 0009B56D.4499900D.00000432 Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 20:29:33 +0200 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Fco=2E_Javier_Dorado_Mart=EDnez?=" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Gnopernicus Not talking on ubuntu 6.06 desktop] Message-ID: <20060621182933.GB30626@tiflolinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Operating-System: Linux tiflolinux.org 2.4.20-8 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.603 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.051, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_NJABL_DUL=1.946] X-Spam-Score: -0.603 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 18:16:58 -0000 ----- Forwarded message from "Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez" ----- Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 20:27:51 +0200 From: "Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez" To: ben mustill-rose Subject: Re: Gnopernicus Not talking on ubuntu 6.06 desktop User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i Hi all Ben, the problem with Gnopernicus not speaking at startup is a question of the sound system, not availability on sound system when Gnopernicus start, so speech is disabled. You can quit gnopernicus by presing alt + q and then restaring it again by pressing alt + f2 and then typing gnopernicus plus enter key. I don't know Hal, so I can give you ore detail about differents. You can change speech settings by pressing 0 + 8 in the numeric keypad, so you can hear "layer 8" and then use 4 and 6 numeric keypad to decrease/increase speech rate, 7 and 9 for volume and 1 or 3 for pitch. All the functionality of Gnopernicus screen reader is based on the numeric keypad, and based in layers. So you have 10 layers with differents functions. Press 00 for layer 0, 01 for layer 1 and so. Hope this help Regards, Javier. On Wed, Jun 21, 2006 at 01:48:41PM +0100, ben mustill-rose wrote: > Hi. > > I installed ubuntu 6.06 desktop on a laptop some time ago and with > that i downloaded speech since i'm blind. > The thing is, half the time when i log in, it doesn't talk. To fix > this, i will have to restart the computer again and again. > There doesn't seem to be any patton regarding how many times i have to > restart, which is kinda annoying. > When it does start talking, its to slow, is there a hotkey to change the speech? > And lastly, is there anything that i should kno if i am moving from > hal to gnopernicus? > Any help would be great, i'm new to linux so i dunno if i gave all the > right info, but if not, just ask. > KR, BEN. > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list -- Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez mailto:javier@tiflolinux.org ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez mailto:javier@tiflolinux.org From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Fri Jun 23 10:54:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22CE23B087B for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 10:54:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18849-01 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 10:54:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.187]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B02B03B08E6 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 10:54:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id h2so91379nfe for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 07:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.4.17 with SMTP id g17mr2514299nfi; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 07:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.30.13 with HTTP; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 07:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 15:54:14 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" Sender: skating.tortoise@gmail.com To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, ubuntu-accessibility Subject: Re: Slow keys dialog In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: X-Google-Sender-Auth: f682d046db45120e X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.446 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.154, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.446 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 14:54:18 -0000 I've implemented sticky keys in my onscreen keyboard. When shift is stuck down it causes the slow keys dialogue to appear. Is there a way to suppress this dialog whilst my app is running? thanks -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Fri Jun 23 11:07:43 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4C2D3B0321 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 11:07:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19442-07 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 11:07:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.185]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B36483B08E6 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 11:07:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id h2so93351nfe for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 08:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.4.17 with SMTP id g17mr2523841nfi; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 08:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.30.13 with HTTP; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 08:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 16:07:39 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, ubuntu-accessibility Subject: Re: Slow keys dialog In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 15:07:43 -0000 I've implemented sticky keys in my onscreen keyboard. When shift is stuck down it causes the slow keys dialogue to appear. Is there a way to suppress this dialog whilst my app is running? thanks -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From enrico@enricozini.org Sat Jun 24 07:13:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F0053B02C1; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 07:13:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09160-07; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 07:13:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from maya.ngi.it (maya.ngi.it [88.149.128.3]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45FC13B006E; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 07:13:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (81-174-12-206.f5.ngi.it [81.174.12.206]) by maya.ngi.it (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5OBDf7s005708; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 13:13:41 +0200 Received: from enrico by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1Fu64i-0006Mo-Ds; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 12:13:16 +0100 Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 12:13:16 +0100 From: Enrico Zini To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org Subject: Fixing gnome-speech Message-ID: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ibTvN161/egqYuK8" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060403 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.014, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 11:13:47 -0000 --ibTvN161/egqYuK8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, I'm trying to look more into the problems I'm having with the speech support on Dapper (see my mail with subject "Fixing brittle speech support on Dapper" from June, 10th, which strangely isn't showing up in the archives at http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-accessibility-list/200= 6-June/thread.html). I started reading through gnome-speech source code. I noticed that it runs festival as a server and talks to it. This makes us have a screen reader that talks CORBA to a server that talks TCP/IP to another server who then does the synthesis. That's too many passages in which something can go wrong. Instinctively, I'm considering rewriting the festival driver to using the C API rather than the festival server. The C API of Festival is just as simple as this: http://rafb.net/paste/results/I7trk068.html I'll look into it a bit more, writing some test code to talk to the CORBA festival driver as well as test code for the festival C/C++ API, so that I can gain familiarity with both things. Any reasons why this hasn't been done yet? In the meantime, however, before I hurt my brain too much with this, what's the overall situation? Is it worth the effort of fixing gnome-speech, or is the effort better spend on making something else work? I'm already quite frustrated of not getting any sort of answer on the list for this problem that is getting me totally stuck (and thank Luke Yelavich for mora support on IRC), and I don't know how I would cope if I spent time and effort on this just to hear as soon as I've finished that everyone's moving to speech-dispatcher or some other kind of a totally different technology. If it's not worth spending efforts on gnome-speech, please let me know what I can use to replace it, since it doesn't work for me. Ciao, Enrico --=20 GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini --ibTvN161/egqYuK8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEnR5M9LSwzHl+v6sRAvfXAJ96YsbY8wqms77UDb9GCEEkTBctXgCdHWgz kdeLwfWldHDFD8gNgZRK8LU= =0xvb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ibTvN161/egqYuK8-- From javier@tiflolinux.org Sat Jun 24 16:21:09 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E13E43B00A5 for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 16:21:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01623-02 for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 16:21:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tiflolinux.org (unknown [82.158.40.139]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FC433B006E for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 16:21:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (uid 503) by tiflolinux.org with local; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 22:32:16 +0200 id 0004BEAB.449DA150.0000373E Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 22:32:16 +0200 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Fco=2E_Javier_Dorado_Mart=EDnez?=" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Gnopernicus Not talking on ubuntu 6.06 desktop]] Message-ID: <20060624203216.GB14113@tiflolinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Operating-System: Linux tiflolinux.org 2.4.20-8 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.608 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.045, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_NJABL_DUL=1.946] X-Spam-Score: -0.608 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 20:21:09 -0000 ----- Forwarded message from "Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez" ----- Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 22:30:11 +0200 From: "Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez" To: ben mustill-rose Subject: Re: Gnopernicus Not talking on ubuntu 6.06 desktop] User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i Hi all To avoid gnome-panel crashes first open a terminal by running gnome-terminal at the run dialog (alt + f2). Then type gnopernicus& Then no problems with the panel. Regards, Javier. On Sat, Jun 24, 2006 at 08:39:31PM +0100, ben mustill-rose wrote: > Hi all and sorry for not replying sooner. > > I tried the thing where you type gnopernicus into the run type box, > and that does make it talk, but only to say that there is a error with > gnome panel. > I clicked inform developers, but i dunno if it did it, because it > stopped talking. > It also stops talking when i click restart program or close. > I am doing a re install of ubuntu atm, so i'll see if this fixes it. > Thanks for the explanation about the way that the layers work and your > suggestion about the problem; i don't think it would have anything to > do with the sound system as it makes the startup& login sounds > everytime regardless of whether it talks or not. > Thanks, > > BEN. > > On 21/06/06, Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez wrote: > >----- Forwarded message from "Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez" > > ----- > > > >Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 20:27:51 +0200 > >From: "Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez" > >To: ben mustill-rose > >Subject: Re: Gnopernicus Not talking on ubuntu 6.06 desktop > >User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i > > > >Hi all > > > >Ben, the problem with Gnopernicus not speaking at startup is a question of > >the sound system, not availability on sound system when Gnopernicus start, > >so speech is disabled. > >You can quit gnopernicus by presing alt + q and then restaring it again by > >pressing alt + f2 and then typing gnopernicus plus enter key. > > > >I don't know Hal, so I can give you ore detail about differents. You can > >change speech settings by pressing 0 + 8 in the numeric keypad, so you can > >hear "layer 8" and then use 4 and 6 numeric keypad to decrease/increase > >speech rate, 7 and 9 for volume and 1 or 3 for pitch. > >All the functionality of Gnopernicus screen reader is based on the numeric > >keypad, and based in layers. So you have 10 layers with differents > >functions. Press 00 for layer 0, 01 for layer 1 and so. > > > >Hope this help > > > >Regards, > > > >Javier. > >On Wed, Jun 21, 2006 at 01:48:41PM +0100, ben mustill-rose wrote: > >> Hi. > >> > >> I installed ubuntu 6.06 desktop on a laptop some time ago and with > >> that i downloaded speech since i'm blind. > >> The thing is, half the time when i log in, it doesn't talk. To fix > >> this, i will have to restart the computer again and again. > >> There doesn't seem to be any patton regarding how many times i have to > >> restart, which is kinda annoying. > >> When it does start talking, its to slow, is there a hotkey to change the > >speech? > >> And lastly, is there anything that i should kno if i am moving from > >> hal to gnopernicus? > >> Any help would be great, i'm new to linux so i dunno if i gave all the > >> right info, but if not, just ask. > >> KR, BEN. > >> _______________________________________________ > >> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > >> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > >-- > >Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez > >mailto:javier@tiflolinux.org > > > >----- End forwarded message ----- > > > >-- > >Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez > >mailto:javier@tiflolinux.org > >_______________________________________________ > >gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > >gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > >http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > -- Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez mailto:javier@tiflolinux.org ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez mailto:javier@tiflolinux.org From ashutoshsharma@gmail.com Mon Jun 26 03:19:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECE8A3B00FA for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 03:19:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29011-07 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 03:19:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.182]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 181A23B0174 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 03:19:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id i49so1476020pyi for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 00:19:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.88.18 with SMTP id q18mr5652864pyl; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 00:19:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.41.6 with HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 00:19:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <79693c1a0606260019j408974efg8d1b36465a6b56cb@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:49:27 +0530 From: "Ashu Sharma" To: kde-accessibility@kde.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Use of gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' on KDE ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2506_29911772.1151306367960" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.399 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.399 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 07:19:34 -0000 ------=_Part_2506_29911772.1151306367960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi, There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather than putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI (to avoid dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear as to what was finally decided. On a related note, is the gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE too, to set or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a system? Or, is it used only on GNOME? Thanks, Ashutosh ------=_Part_2506_29911772.1151306367960 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
Hi,
 
There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather than putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI (to avoid dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear as to what was finally decided.
 
On a related note, is the gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE too, to set or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a system? Or, is it used only on GNOME?
 
Thanks,
Ashutosh
------=_Part_2506_29911772.1151306367960-- From cerha@brailcom.org Mon Jun 26 05:14:08 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEB423B0124 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:14:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04293-07 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:14:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gate.brailcom.cz (158-84-244-84.strcechy.adsl-llu.static.bluetone.cz [84.244.84.158]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B77673B01A8 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:14:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 11545 invoked from network); 26 Jun 2006 10:52:49 +0200 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.15.2?) (192.168.15.2) by ns.brailcom.xx with SMTP; 26 Jun 2006 10:52:49 +0200 Message-ID: <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:14:01 +0200 From: Tomas Cerha Organization: Brailcom, o.p.s. User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> In-Reply-To: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.483 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.878, BAYES_20=-0.74, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -1.483 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 09:14:09 -0000 Enrico Zini wrote: > Hello, > In the meantime, however, before I hurt my brain too much with this, > what's the overall situation? Is it worth the effort of fixing > gnome-speech, or is the effort better spend on making something else > work? Hi Enrico, I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, this may be essential for some people and the Orca -> Gnome Speech -> Speech Dispatcher -> synthesizer aproach has inherent problems. This might solve your problem too. Please, see also the common "TTS API" draft at http://www.freebsoft.org/tts-api. This is a common effort of Free Desktop and FSG. Best regards, Tomas -- Brailcom, o.p.s. http://www.brailcom.org Free(b)soft project http://www.freebsoft.org Eurochance project http://eurochance.brailcom.org From themuso@themuso.com Mon Jun 26 05:17:21 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 622303B0199 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:17:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04696-01 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:17:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vscan02.westnet.com.au (vscan02.westnet.com.au [203.10.1.132]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BF373B009A for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:17:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB27411DE38 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:17:17 +0800 (WST) Received: from vscan02.westnet.com.au ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (vscan02.westnet.com.au [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08941-12 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:17:17 +0800 (WST) Received: from themuso.com (dsl-202-173-132-131.nsw.westnet.com.au [202.173.132.131]) by vscan02.westnet.com.au (Postfix) with SMTP id 903AA11DE2D for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:17:17 +0800 (WST) Received: (nullmailer pid 16386 invoked by uid 1000); Mon, 26 Jun 2006 09:17:22 -0000 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 19:17:22 +1000 From: Luke Yelavich To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech Message-ID: <20060626091722.GA16369@themuso.com> References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="0F1p//8PRICkK4MW" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.42 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.044, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.42 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 09:17:21 -0000 --0F1p//8PRICkK4MW Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jun 26, 2006 at 07:14:01PM EST, Tomas Cerha wrote: > Hi Enrico, >=20 > I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This > bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher > offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, Mind I ask when this is likely to be completed? We in the Ubuntu=20 accessibility team are intending to switch to orca as the primary screen=20 reader for Ubuntu, and would like to replace gnome-speech with=20 speech-dispatcher as the back-end of choice for speech output, due to a=20 few other things we have in the pipeline. If you would like testers, I would be happy to put my hand up and try. Thanks in advance. --=20 Luke Yelavich GPG key: 0xD06320CE=20 (http://www.themuso.com/themuso-gpg-key.txt) Email & MSN: themuso@themuso.com ICQ: 18444344 Jabber: themuso@jabber.org.au --0F1p//8PRICkK4MW Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEn6YijVefwtBjIM4RAohUAJ9bFCUPjukVXuVxUuLc520zyq0wlwCgwrt9 hmTb/aJktGYao3cCYYeBSVs= =oGv9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0F1p//8PRICkK4MW-- From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 06:10:08 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 733133B009A for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 06:10:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08484-07 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 06:10:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDDAD3B002A for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 06:10:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5QA9xFH003901 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 04:10:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1G00301PGS57@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:09:59 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-202.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.202]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1G00ISBPKN45@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:09:59 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:11:10 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [Kde-accessibility] Use of gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' on KDE ? In-reply-to: <79693c1a0606260019j408974efg8d1b36465a6b56cb@mail.gmail.com> To: Ashu Sharma Message-id: <1151316670.7079.6.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <79693c1a0606260019j408974efg8d1b36465a6b56cb@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.576 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.022, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.576 X-Spam-Level: Cc: kde-accessibility@kde.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:10:08 -0000 On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:19, Ashu Sharma wrote: > Hi, > > There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather than > putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI (to avoid > dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear as to what > was finally decided. If KDE writes to ATK, it makes the job easier in a number of ways (at the cost of introducing a glib dependency, but hiding other gnome-ish dependencies). However, the AT-SPI layer requires CORBA in order to function, so in order to actually expose useful information to our assistive technologies, an application must LD_PRELOAD the "atk-bridge" module which bridges from ATK to AT-SPI's CORBA IPC. I think this is the most effective thing to do for the time being (preload atk-bridge), since it doesn't introduce a CORBA dependency on the KDE apps (only a soft runtime dependency). The AT-SPI assistive technology clients cannot work without the AT-SPI/ORBit2/etc. libraries being present on the system anyhow, so from a practical perspective this is the minimum current dependency situation. There's another environment variable you can look for if you don't want to use gconf; GTK_MODULES. Of course that's still quite a gnome/gtk+-ish variable and arguably not appropriate to KDE anyhow, so it might be cleaner just to spawn a gconf-client executable and parse the output, in order to detect whether assistive technology support is desired or not. Also, soon there will be a slightly different mechanism for detecting the presence of the AT-SPI registry - it will place an IOR as an Xatom on the root DISPLAY window. This means you can find it without using bonobo-activation. regards Bill > > On a related note, is the gconf > key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE too, to set > or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a system? Or, is > it used only on GNOME? > > Thanks, > Ashutosh > > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > kde-accessibility mailing list > kde-accessibility@kde.org > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility From ashutoshsharma@gmail.com Mon Jun 26 08:30:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDB6F3B0175 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:30:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17354-05 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:30:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.178]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 282313B0279 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:30:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id i49so1548987pyi for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:30:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.51.13 with SMTP id d13mr5906514pyk; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:30:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.41.6 with HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:30:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <79693c1a0606260530x71d11d9dic7cfd6bb6974a1ad@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:00:08 +0530 From: "Ashu Sharma" To: "Bill Haneman" Subject: Re: [Kde-accessibility] Use of gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' on KDE ? In-Reply-To: <1151316670.7079.6.camel@linux.site> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_5856_6313645.1151325008992" References: <79693c1a0606260019j408974efg8d1b36465a6b56cb@mail.gmail.com> <1151316670.7079.6.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.487 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.088, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.487 X-Spam-Level: Cc: kde-accessibility@kde.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:30:13 -0000 ------=_Part_5856_6313645.1151325008992 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 6/26/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:19, Ashu Sharma wrote: > > Hi, > > > > There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather than > > putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI (to avoid > > dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear as to what > > was finally decided. > > If KDE writes to ATK, it makes the job easier in a number of ways (at > the cost of introducing a glib dependency, but hiding other gnome-ish > dependencies). However, the AT-SPI layer requires CORBA in order to > function, so in order to actually expose useful information to our > assistive technologies, an application must LD_PRELOAD the "atk-bridge" > module which bridges from ATK to AT-SPI's CORBA IPC. > > I think this is the most effective thing to do for the time being > (preload atk-bridge), since it doesn't introduce a CORBA dependency on > the KDE apps (only a soft runtime dependency). The AT-SPI assistive > technology clients cannot work without the AT-SPI/ORBit2/etc. libraries > being present on the system anyhow, so from a practical perspective this > is the minimum current dependency situation. > > There's another environment variable you can look for if you don't want > to use gconf; GTK_MODULES. Of course that's still quite a > gnome/gtk+-ish variable and arguably not appropriate to KDE anyhow, so > it might be cleaner just to spawn a gconf-client executable and parse > the output, in order to detect whether assistive technology support is > desired or not. Also, soon there will be a slightly different mechanism > for detecting the presence of the AT-SPI registry - it will place an IOR > as an Xatom on the root DISPLAY window. This means you can find it > without using bonobo-activation. > > regards > > Bill > > > > > On a related note, is the gconf > > key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE too, to set > > or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a system? Or, is > > it used only on GNOME? > > > > Thanks, > > Ashutosh > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > kde-accessibility mailing list > > kde-accessibility@kde.org > > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility > > Bill, Thanks for these details. I am actually wondering about the current state of KDE accessibility - whether AT clients under KDE currently depend on gnome/gconf libraries (especially if they use the gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' to enable AT support). Thanks, Ashutosh ------=_Part_5856_6313645.1151325008992 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 6/26/06, Bill Haneman <Bill.Haneman@sun.com> wrote:
On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:19, Ashu Sharma wrote:
> Hi,
>
> There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather than
> putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI (to avoid
> dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear as to what
> was finally decided.

If KDE writes to ATK, it makes the job easier in a number of ways (at
the cost of introducing a glib dependency, but hiding other gnome-ish
dependencies).  However, the AT-SPI layer requires CORBA in order to
function, so in order to actually expose useful information to our
assistive technologies, an application must LD_PRELOAD the "atk-bridge"
module which bridges from ATK to AT-SPI's CORBA IPC.

I think this is the most effective thing to do for the time being
(preload atk-bridge), since it doesn't introduce a CORBA dependency on
the KDE apps (only a soft runtime dependency).  The AT-SPI assistive
technology clients cannot work without the AT-SPI/ORBit2/etc. libraries
being present on the system anyhow, so from a practical perspective this
is the minimum current dependency situation.

There's another environment variable you can look for if you don't want
to use gconf; GTK_MODULES.  Of course that's still quite a
gnome/gtk+-ish variable and arguably not appropriate to KDE anyhow, so
it might be cleaner just to spawn a gconf-client executable and parse
the output, in order to detect whether assistive technology support is
desired or not.  Also, soon there will be a slightly different mechanism
for detecting the presence of the AT-SPI registry - it will place an IOR
as an Xatom on the root DISPLAY window.  This means you can find it
without using bonobo-activation.

regards

Bill

>
> On a related note, is the gconf
> key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE too, to set
> or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a system? Or, is
> it used only on GNOME?
>
> Thanks,
> Ashutosh
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> kde-accessibility mailing list
> kde-accessibility@kde.org
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility



Bill,
Thanks for these details.
I am actually wondering about the current state of KDE accessibility - whether AT clients under KDE currently depend on gnome/gconf libraries (especially if they use the gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' to enable AT support) .
Thanks,
Ashutosh
------=_Part_5856_6313645.1151325008992-- From enrico@enricozini.org Mon Jun 26 08:44:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCDA03B0387; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:44:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18426-01; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:44:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from maya.ngi.it (maya.ngi.it [88.149.128.3]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87FC23B02F7; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:44:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (81-174-12-206.f5.ngi.it [81.174.12.206]) by maya.ngi.it (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5QCihKc011937; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:44:43 +0200 Received: from enrico by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FuqNo-0003eT-1a; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:40:04 +0100 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:40:03 +0100 From: Enrico Zini To: Tomas Cerha Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech Message-ID: <20060626124003.GA13572@viaza> Mail-Followup-To: Tomas Cerha , gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060403 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.456 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.008, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.456 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:44:48 -0000 --NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jun 26, 2006 at 11:14:01AM +0200, Tomas Cerha wrote: > I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This > bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher > offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, this > may be essential for some people and the Orca -> Gnome Speech -> Speech > Dispatcher -> synthesizer aproach has inherent problems. This might > solve your problem too. >=20 > Please, see also the common "TTS API" draft at > http://www.freebsoft.org/tts-api. This is a common effort of Free > Desktop and FSG. Cool. Is there a way I can use all of this right now on Dapper? Ciao, Enrico --=20 GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini --NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEn9Wj9LSwzHl+v6sRAofUAJ9rGqFPNo5F+9EKH1UOKSt32EG0nwCfZZUp 64toiGSrN/swh06OHchQyCY= =hVic -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh-- From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 10:48:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA3BA3B046B for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:48:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25602-07 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:48:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 398A83B0379 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:48:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5QEmdiJ024863 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:48:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1H008012BMA0@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:48:39 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-202.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.202]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1H008072H345@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:48:39 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:49:51 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com Message-id: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.577 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.577 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:48:49 -0000 Hi Chris: The answer is, "don't implement sticky keys in your keyboard". You should be using the system-wide StickyKeys settings and feature instead (as GOK does). Interfering with the normal operation of the system wide setting (i.e clashing with it as your app does), is itself an accessibility violation. (There are several gconf keys you can use to turn sticky keys on and off - see those under /desktop/gnome/accessibility/keyboard) Bill > I've implemented sticky keys in my onscreen keyboard. When shift is > stuck down it causes the slow keys dialogue to appear. Is there a way > to suppress this dialog whilst my app is running? > > thanks > > > -- > Chris Jones From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 11:21:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83D7D3B0135 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:21:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27817-09 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:21:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A48F3B02BF for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:21:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5QFLalF005098 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 09:21:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1H005013V76K@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:21:36 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-202.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.202]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1H008O33ZZ45@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:21:36 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:22:47 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [Kde-accessibility] Use of gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' on KDE ? In-reply-to: <79693c1a0606260530x71d11d9dic7cfd6bb6974a1ad@mail.gmail.com> To: Ashu Sharma Message-id: <1151335367.7079.40.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <79693c1a0606260019j408974efg8d1b36465a6b56cb@mail.gmail.com> <1151316670.7079.6.camel@linux.site> <79693c1a0606260530x71d11d9dic7cfd6bb6974a1ad@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.577 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.577 X-Spam-Level: Cc: kde-accessibility@kde.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:21:46 -0000 Hi Ashu: Currently the state of KDE accessibility is somewhat limited. Other than some important theming and keyboard-navigation support, which does not require a complex interface such as AT-SPI, there are only a few useful utilities like KMag, KMouth, and KMousetool. While these are nice utilities, they aren't enough to allow users who cannot use a keyboard at all, or who are blind or have very limited vision, to use KDE. We have three working screen readers (for blind users) for the free desktop now; gnopernicus, orca, and LSR. For users who cannot use a keyboard, we have GOK and Dasher. All of these technologies require the full power of the AT-SPI interfaces, and thus require the ORBit2 CORBA stack in order to work. The gconf key you mention is for determining whether support for such full-features assistive technologies should be enabled or not. When KDE/Qt applications provide full-featured accessibility services, as is planned for Qt4, then those services can be bridged to AT-SPI, making those applications available to screen readers and other sorts of "user interface adapting" assistive technologies. While it would be possible to write a "KDE" screen reader or KDE onscreen keyboard for severely disable users (for instance users who cannot even 'point and click' reliably), I don't think it would be the best use of our resources. Technologies like Orca are intended to work with AT-SPI-enabled KDE apps just as they work with applications like OpenOffice, Java apps, Firefox, and other applications today, not just "gnome". By writing Orca scripts for popular KDE applications, the KDE desktop, and by fixing the inevitable bugs in KDE's keyboard navigation and accessibility support, a modest amount of development effort can go further to benefit disabled users. best regards Bill On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 13:30, Ashu Sharma wrote: > On 6/26/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:19, Ashu Sharma wrote: > > Hi, > > > > There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather > than > > putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI > (to avoid > > dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear > as to what > > was finally decided. > > If KDE writes to ATK, it makes the job easier in a number of > ways (at > the cost of introducing a glib dependency, but hiding other > gnome-ish > dependencies). However, the AT-SPI layer requires CORBA in > order to > function, so in order to actually expose useful information to > our > assistive technologies, an application must LD_PRELOAD the > "atk-bridge" > module which bridges from ATK to AT-SPI's CORBA IPC. > > I think this is the most effective thing to do for the time > being > (preload atk-bridge), since it doesn't introduce a CORBA > dependency on > the KDE apps (only a soft runtime dependency). The AT-SPI > assistive > technology clients cannot work without the AT-SPI/ORBit2/etc. > libraries > being present on the system anyhow, so from a practical > perspective this > is the minimum current dependency situation. > > There's another environment variable you can look for if you > don't want > to use gconf; GTK_MODULES. Of course that's still quite a > gnome/gtk+-ish variable and arguably not appropriate to KDE > anyhow, so > it might be cleaner just to spawn a gconf-client executable > and parse > the output, in order to detect whether assistive technology > support is > desired or not. Also, soon there will be a slightly different > mechanism > for detecting the presence of the AT-SPI registry - it will > place an IOR > as an Xatom on the root DISPLAY window. This means you can > find it > without using bonobo-activation. > > regards > > Bill > > > > > On a related note, is the gconf > > key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE > too, to set > > or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a > system? Or, is > > it used only on GNOME? > > > > Thanks, > > Ashutosh > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > kde-accessibility mailing list > > kde-accessibility@kde.org > > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility > > > > Bill, > Thanks for these details. > I am actually wondering about the current state of KDE accessibility - > whether AT clients under KDE currently depend on gnome/gconf libraries > (especially if they use the gconf key > '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' to enable AT support) . > Thanks, > Ashutosh > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > kde-accessibility mailing list > kde-accessibility@kde.org > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility From ashutoshsharma@gmail.com Mon Jun 26 11:43:04 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 801FA3B03F3 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:43:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29596-02 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:43:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.179]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74DD33B03BC for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:43:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id d42so1560606pyd for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.60.16 with SMTP id n16mr4625437pyk; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.41.6 with HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <79693c1a0606260843s8c12ba3v75e72b38a712f3c1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:13:00 +0530 From: "Ashu Sharma" To: "Bill Haneman" Subject: Re: [Kde-accessibility] Use of gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' on KDE ? In-Reply-To: <1151335367.7079.40.camel@linux.site> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_217_32816475.1151336580471" References: <79693c1a0606260019j408974efg8d1b36465a6b56cb@mail.gmail.com> <1151316670.7079.6.camel@linux.site> <79693c1a0606260530x71d11d9dic7cfd6bb6974a1ad@mail.gmail.com> <1151335367.7079.40.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.239 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.336, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, HTML_40_50=0.496, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.239 X-Spam-Level: Cc: kde-accessibility@kde.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:43:04 -0000 ------=_Part_217_32816475.1151336580471 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 6/26/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > Hi Ashu: > > Currently the state of KDE accessibility is somewhat limited. Other > than some important theming and keyboard-navigation support, which does > not require a complex interface such as AT-SPI, there are only a few > useful utilities like KMag, KMouth, and KMousetool. While these are > nice utilities, they aren't enough to allow users who cannot use a > keyboard at all, or who are blind or have very limited vision, to use > KDE. > > We have three working screen readers (for blind users) for the free > desktop now; gnopernicus, orca, and LSR. For users who cannot use a > keyboard, we have GOK and Dasher. All of these technologies require the > full power of the AT-SPI interfaces, and thus require the ORBit2 CORBA > stack in order to work. The gconf key you mention is for determining > whether support for such full-features assistive technologies should be > enabled or not. > > When KDE/Qt applications provide full-featured accessibility services, > as is planned for Qt4, then those services can be bridged to AT-SPI, > making those applications available to screen readers and other sorts of > "user interface adapting" assistive technologies. > > While it would be possible to write a "KDE" screen reader or KDE > onscreen keyboard for severely disable users (for instance users who > cannot even 'point and click' reliably), I don't think it would be the > best use of our resources. Technologies like Orca are intended to work > with AT-SPI-enabled KDE apps just as they work with applications like > OpenOffice, Java apps, Firefox, and other applications today, not just > "gnome". By writing Orca scripts for popular KDE applications, the KDE > desktop, and by fixing the inevitable bugs in KDE's keyboard navigation > and accessibility support, a modest amount of development effort can go > further to benefit disabled users. > > best regards > > Bill > > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 13:30, Ashu Sharma wrote: > > On 6/26/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:19, Ashu Sharma wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather > > than > > > putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI > > (to avoid > > > dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear > > as to what > > > was finally decided. > > > > If KDE writes to ATK, it makes the job easier in a number of > > ways (at > > the cost of introducing a glib dependency, but hiding other > > gnome-ish > > dependencies). However, the AT-SPI layer requires CORBA in > > order to > > function, so in order to actually expose useful information to > > our > > assistive technologies, an application must LD_PRELOAD the > > "atk-bridge" > > module which bridges from ATK to AT-SPI's CORBA IPC. > > > > I think this is the most effective thing to do for the time > > being > > (preload atk-bridge), since it doesn't introduce a CORBA > > dependency on > > the KDE apps (only a soft runtime dependency). The AT-SPI > > assistive > > technology clients cannot work without the AT-SPI/ORBit2/etc. > > libraries > > being present on the system anyhow, so from a practical > > perspective this > > is the minimum current dependency situation. > > > > There's another environment variable you can look for if you > > don't want > > to use gconf; GTK_MODULES. Of course that's still quite a > > gnome/gtk+-ish variable and arguably not appropriate to KDE > > anyhow, so > > it might be cleaner just to spawn a gconf-client executable > > and parse > > the output, in order to detect whether assistive technology > > support is > > desired or not. Also, soon there will be a slightly different > > mechanism > > for detecting the presence of the AT-SPI registry - it will > > place an IOR > > as an Xatom on the root DISPLAY window. This means you can > > find it > > without using bonobo-activation. > > > > regards > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > On a related note, is the gconf > > > key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE > > too, to set > > > or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a > > system? Or, is > > > it used only on GNOME? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Ashutosh > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > kde-accessibility mailing list > > > kde-accessibility@kde.org > > > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility > > > > > > > > Bill, > > Thanks for these details. > > I am actually wondering about the current state of KDE accessibility - > > whether AT clients under KDE currently depend on gnome/gconf libraries > > (especially if they use the gconf key > > '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' to enable AT support) . > > Thanks, > > Ashutosh > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > kde-accessibility mailing list > > kde-accessibility@kde.org > > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility > > Hi Bill, These details are really useful. Thanks! I suppose things will get much better on KDE after Qt4 or with more application specific Orca scripts. Thanks, Ashu ------=_Part_217_32816475.1151336580471 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
On 6/26/06, Bill Haneman <Bill.Haneman@sun.com> wrote:
Hi Ashu:

Currently the state of KDE accessibility is somewhat limited.  Other
than some important theming and keyboard-navigation support, which does
not require a complex interface such as AT-SPI, there are only a few
useful utilities like KMag, KMouth, and KMousetool.  While these are
nice utilities, they aren't enough to allow users who cannot use a
keyboard at all, or who are blind or have very limited vision, to use
KDE.

We have three working screen readers (for blind users) for the free
desktop now; gnopernicus, orca, and LSR.  For users who cannot use a
keyboard, we have GOK and Dasher.  All of these technologies require the
full power of the AT-SPI interfaces, and thus require the ORBit2 CORBA
stack in order to work.  The gconf key you mention is for determining
whether support for such full-features assistive technologies should be
enabled or not.

When KDE/Qt applications provide full-featured accessibility services,
as is planned for Qt4, then those services can be bridged to AT-SPI,
making those applications available to screen readers and other sorts of
"user interface adapting" assistive technologies.

While it would be possible to write a "KDE" screen reader or KDE
onscreen keyboard for severely disable users (for instance users who
cannot even 'point and click' reliably), I don't think it would be the
best use of our resources.  Technologies like Orca are intended to work
with AT-SPI-enabled KDE apps just as they work with applications like
OpenOffice, Java apps, Firefox, and other applications today, not just
"gnome".  By writing Orca scripts for popular KDE applications, the KDE
desktop, and by fixing the inevitable bugs in KDE's keyboard navigation
and accessibility support, a modest amount of development effort can go
further to benefit disabled users.

best regards

Bill

On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 13:30, Ashu Sharma wrote:
> On 6/26/06, Bill Haneman < Bill.Haneman@sun.com> wrote:
>         On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:19, Ashu Sharma wrote:
>         > Hi,
>         >
>         > There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather
>         than
>         > putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI
>         (to avoid
>         > dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear
>         as to what
>         > was finally decided.
>
>         If KDE writes to ATK, it makes the job easier in a number of
>         ways (at
>         the cost of introducing a glib dependency, but hiding other
>         gnome-ish
>         dependencies).  However, the AT-SPI layer requires CORBA in
>         order to
>         function, so in order to actually expose useful information to
>         our
>         assistive technologies, an application must LD_PRELOAD the
>         "atk-bridge"
>         module which bridges from ATK to AT-SPI's CORBA IPC.
>
>         I think this is the most effective thing to do for the time
>         being
>         (preload atk-bridge), since it doesn't introduce a CORBA
>         dependency on
>         the KDE apps (only a soft runtime dependency).  The AT-SPI
>         assistive
>         technology clients cannot work without the AT-SPI/ORBit2/etc.
>         libraries
>         being present on the system anyhow, so from a practical
>         perspective this
>         is the minimum current dependency situation.
>
>         There's another environment variable you can look for if you
>         don't want
>         to use gconf; GTK_MODULES.  Of course that's still quite a
>         gnome/gtk+-ish variable and arguably not appropriate to KDE
>         anyhow, so
>         it might be cleaner just to spawn a gconf-client executable
>         and parse
>         the output, in order to detect whether assistive technology
>         support is
>         desired or not.  Also, soon there will be a slightly different
>         mechanism
>         for detecting the presence of the AT-SPI registry - it will
>         place an IOR
>         as an Xatom on the root DISPLAY window.  This means you can
>         find it
>         without using bonobo-activation.
>
>         regards
>
>         Bill
>
>         >
>         > On a related note, is the gconf
>         > key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE
>         too, to set
>         > or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a
>         system? Or, is
>         > it used only on GNOME?
>         >
>         > Thanks,
>         > Ashutosh
>         >
>         >
>         ______________________________________________________________________
>         > _______________________________________________
>         > kde-accessibility mailing list
>         > kde-accessibility@kde.org
>         > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility
>
>
>
> Bill,
> Thanks for these details.
> I am actually wondering about the current state of KDE accessibility -
> whether AT clients under KDE currently depend on gnome/gconf libraries
> (especially if they use the gconf key
> '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' to enable AT support) .
> Thanks,
> Ashutosh
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> kde-accessibility mailing list
> kde-accessibility@kde.org
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility


Hi Bill,
 
These details are really useful. Thanks!
I suppose things will get much better on KDE after Qt4 or with more application specific Orca scripts.
 
Thanks,
Ashu
------=_Part_217_32816475.1151336580471-- From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Mon Jun 26 16:33:58 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99BB63B031D for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:33:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14290-03 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:33:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.205]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BC1E3B008B for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:33:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 13so1437074nzp for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:33:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.138.19 with SMTP id l19mr1632308nzd; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:33:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.73.15 with HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:33:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:33:56 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" Sender: skating.tortoise@gmail.com To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-Reply-To: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 99b8f1f66b5e77f8 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.395 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.005, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.395 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:33:58 -0000 The sytem-wide StickyKeys is too inflexible for my needs. I have the following gripes: * A user might want the onscreen keyboard to be sticky but not the physical. * It allows me to implement the functionality in a way that is more suitable for an onscreen keyboard. One click sets sticky for one click of a non sticky character, a further click sets sticky until a third click. * The sticky keys dialogue is annoying. A far better way would be to enable it in the preferences, since you must to enable assistive technology support and be notified of it's act/deactivation by a notification bubble. * This is not purely a a11y project. It has other uses, tablet pc's etc. Therefore I wanted a soft dependency on assistive technologies. * GOK's implentation is very unreliable on my system, and not something I particularly want to emulate. I know I should fix these gripes instead of treading my own path. However, this is a Summer of Code project and so I need to produce the expected results before a deadline. In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". Thanks for your time. On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > Hi Chris: > > The answer is, "don't implement sticky keys in your keyboard". You > should be using the system-wide StickyKeys settings and feature instead > (as GOK does). > > Interfering with the normal operation of the system wide setting (i.e > clashing with it as your app does), is itself an accessibility > violation. > > (There are several gconf keys you can use to turn sticky keys on and off > - see those under /desktop/gnome/accessibility/keyboard) > > Bill > > > I've implemented sticky keys in my onscreen keyboard. When shift is > > stuck down it causes the slow keys dialogue to appear. Is there a way > > to suppress this dialog whilst my app is running? > > > > thanks > > > > > > -- > > Chris Jones > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Mon Jun 26 16:43:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3667E3B01E8 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:43:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14968-01 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:43:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.204]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABE423B00F9 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:43:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 13so22255nzn for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:43:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.221.39 with SMTP id t39mr3268556nzg; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:43:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.73.15 with HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:43:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:43:30 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.5 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:43:34 -0000 Thanks for your reply. The system-wide StickyKeys is too inflexible for my needs. I have the following gripes: * A user might want the onscreen keyboard to be sticky but not the physical. * It does not allow me to implement the functionality in a way that is suitable for an onscreen keyboard. My implementations uses one click to set sticky for one click of a non sticky character, a further click sets sticky until a third click or the stuck key. * The sticky keys dialogue is annoying. A far better way would be to enable it in the preferences, since you must to enable assistive technology support and be notified of it's act/deactivation by a notification bubble. * This is not purely a a11y project. It has other uses, tablet PCs etc. Therefore I wanted a soft dependency on assistive technologies. * GOK's implementation is very unreliable on my system, and not something I particularly want to emulate. I know I should fix these gripes instead of treading my own path. However, this is a Summer of Code project and so I need to produce the expected results before a deadline. In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > Hi Chris: > > The answer is, "don't implement sticky keys in your keyboard". You > should be using the system-wide StickyKeys settings and feature instead > (as GOK does). > > Interfering with the normal operation of the system wide setting (i.e > clashing with it as your app does), is itself an accessibility > violation. > > (There are several gconf keys you can use to turn sticky keys on and off > - see those under /desktop/gnome/accessibility/keyboard) > > Bill > > > I've implemented sticky keys in my onscreen keyboard. When shift is > > stuck down it causes the slow keys dialogue to appear. Is there a way > > to suppress this dialog whilst my app is running? > > > > thanks > > > > > > -- > > Chris Jones > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 16:53:02 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8B223B03E8 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:53:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15302-10 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:52:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Sun.COM [192.18.98.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38EB13B031D for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:52:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5QKqvel002689 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:52:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1H00201IWLS9@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:52:57 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-202.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.202]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1H00H7JJC8F4@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:52:57 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:54:08 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: To: Chris Jones Message-id: <1151355248.7079.75.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:53:03 -0000 On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 21:43, Chris Jones wrote: > Thanks for your reply. > > The system-wide StickyKeys is too inflexible for my needs. I have the > following gripes: > * A user might want the onscreen keyboard to be sticky but not the physical. I am not convinced that users will really want this, perhaps this is your opinion. It is still an accessibility violation to interfere with the way the built-in keyboard accessibility features work. > * It does not allow me to implement the functionality in a way that > is suitable for an onscreen keyboard. My implementations uses one > click to set sticky for one > click of a non sticky character, a further click sets sticky until a > third click or the stuck key. The system dialog settings work this way on most systems. > * The sticky keys dialogue is annoying. A far better way would be > to enable it in the preferences, since you must to enable assistive > technology support and be notified of it's act/deactivation by a > notification bubble. You can already turn this off, but it needs to be the default for new desktops/new users, in order to allow users who need it to turn it on via the keyboard shortcuts. > * This is not purely a a11y project. It has other uses, tablet PCs > etc. Therefore I wanted a soft dependency on assistive technologies. The StickyKeys feature is not an assistive technology, per se. However it is a standard platform feature. > * GOK's implementation is very unreliable on my system, and not > something I particularly want to emulate. Have you filed any bug reports? ALL onscreen keyboards will suffer from problems if they use the system core pointer for input, because of pointer grabs which virtually every GUI toolkit does. > I know I should fix these gripes instead of treading my own path. > However, this is a Summer of Code project and so I need to produce the > expected results before a deadline. > > In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". I suggest you use the system gconf keys for sticky keys. regards Bill > > On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > Hi Chris: > > > > The answer is, "don't implement sticky keys in your keyboard". You > > should be using the system-wide StickyKeys settings and feature instead > > (as GOK does). > > > > Interfering with the normal operation of the system wide setting (i.e > > clashing with it as your app does), is itself an accessibility > > violation. > > > > (There are several gconf keys you can use to turn sticky keys on and off > > - see those under /desktop/gnome/accessibility/keyboard) > > > > Bill > > > > > I've implemented sticky keys in my onscreen keyboard. When shift is > > > stuck down it causes the slow keys dialogue to appear. Is there a way > > > to suppress this dialog whilst my app is running? > > > > > > thanks > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Chris Jones > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > -- > Chris Jones > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From henrik@ubuntu.com Mon Jun 26 17:28:25 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 715EE3B00C1 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:28:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17303-03 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:28:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1082A3B00AD for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:28:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.0.10] (henrik.gotadsl.co.uk [82.133.122.11]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D30223788D; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:28:18 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:28:26 +0100 From: Henrik Nilsen Omma User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Jones Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.593 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.006, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.593 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:28:25 -0000 Chris Jones wrote: > ... > > In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". Chris, Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the state internally in SOK? IOW: 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift is clicked again you unset the flag. That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an 'accessibility violation'. Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? - Henrik From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 17:39:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CA353B01FF for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:39:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17635-04 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:39:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2953C3B0157 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:39:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5QLd8Uc010930 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:39:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1H00E01KY47T@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:39:13 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-202.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.202]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1H00HS8LH8F4@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:39:09 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:40:20 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> To: Henrik Nilsen Omma Message-id: <1151358020.7079.77.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:39:27 -0000 On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? Are you going to say something helpful? :-/ Bill > - Henrik > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From henrik@ubuntu.com Mon Jun 26 18:05:10 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24E3B3B038D for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:05:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18852-08 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:05:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E91383B028E for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:05:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.0.10] (henrik.gotadsl.co.uk [82.133.122.11]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4D8A237AE0; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:05:02 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <44A05A17.10107@ubuntu.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:05:11 +0100 From: Henrik Nilsen Omma User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151358020.7079.77.camel@linux.site> In-Reply-To: <1151358020.7079.77.camel@linux.site> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.594 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.005, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.594 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:05:10 -0000 Bill Haneman wrote: > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > > >> Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? >> > > Are you going to say something helpful? > > OK, I should have resisted that last line, sorry. But there is a valid point under the sarcasm, which is: we are trying to make new and better tools here and it is not very helpful to then always refer back to the existing tools which really don't work. - Henrik From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 18:27:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3B5A3B01FF for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:27:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19726-10 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:27:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2271D3B0088 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:27:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5QMRhsc010962 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:27:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1H00701N9XYA@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:27:42 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-202.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.202]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1H00HENNQ6F4@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:27:42 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:28:54 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: <44A05A17.10107@ubuntu.com> To: Henrik Nilsen Omma Message-id: <1151360933.7079.83.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151358020.7079.77.camel@linux.site> <44A05A17.10107@ubuntu.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:27:46 -0000 On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 23:05, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > Bill Haneman wrote: > > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > > > > > >> Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? > >> > > > > Are you going to say something helpful? > > > > > > OK, I should have resisted that last line, sorry. > > But there is a valid point under the sarcasm, which is: > we are trying to > make new and better tools here and it is not very helpful > to then always > refer back to the existing tools which really don't work. You keep saying the existing tools "don't work", but you don't seem to be helping to make them work. 90% of all GOK problems are configuration issues. This is documented in the Gnome Accessibility Guide - mostly it comes down to broken-ness in the way XInput works in most systems out-of-the box. I think in the end we will have to ditch XInput where GOK is concerned, but although several research projects have been carried out to try and identify alternatives, we haven't found one that really fits the bill. Henrik, I thought it was part of your job to do QA and testing of Ubuntu accessibility... so I would hope you would be interested in helping work towards solutions. Building a new onscreen keyboard that doesn't meet the needs of disabled users isn't the right solution in my opinion. Did you even investigate GOK's configurability? I really believe that there are multiple ways in which GOK could have been used to solve the problem you are apparently attempting to solve, but I know for a fact that you didn't have any in-depth discussions with the maintainers. Bill > - Henrik > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 18:38:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC0823B0201 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:38:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20536-04 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:38:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (nwkea-mail-1.sun.com [192.18.42.13]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D43B3B028E for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:38:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5QMch8F017296 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:38:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1H00B01NVL0X@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:38:43 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-202.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.202]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1H00H3VO8IF4@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:38:43 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:39:54 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> To: Henrik Nilsen Omma Message-id: <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:38:46 -0000 On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > Chris Jones wrote: > > ... > > > > In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > > for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > > SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > > fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". > Chris, > > Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the > state internally in SOK? IOW: We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. regards Bill > 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked > SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. > > 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time > the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift > is clicked again you unset the flag. > > That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an > 'accessibility violation'. > > Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? > > - Henrik > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Mon Jun 26 19:51:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E3D03B0011 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 19:51:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23446-08 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 19:51:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.197]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3169F3B00A1 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 19:51:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i1so1971854nzh for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.252.42 with SMTP id z42mr8821381nzh; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.73.15 with HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:51:32 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-Reply-To: <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.495 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.095, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.495 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:51:36 -0000 But this very same thing makes it very awkward who want sticky keys on the keyboard and non-sticky on a physical. Which would be true for all non-a11y users and some a11y users. In the end though the only manner it interferes with my keyboard is the annoying dialogue that pops up, and the average gnome-ally user will probably be plenty used to seeing annoying dialogs anyway. The slow keys dialogue however is another matter though. Normal operations are not resumed until it is dismissed. Which in itself incredibly annoying. When planning the SOK I wanted to stay away from the three odd dialogs that GOK pops up when it is started. The plain fact is I don't want any dialogs when starting SOK. At all. Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely unacceptable. On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > > Chris Jones wrote: > > > ... > > > > > > In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > > > for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > > > SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > > > fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". > > Chris, > > > > Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the > > state internally in SOK? IOW: > > We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. > It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build > an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use > it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. > > If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key > while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is > inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a > problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock > status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you > want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. > > google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's > section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. > > regards > > Bill > > > 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked > > SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. > > > > 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time > > the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift > > is clicked again you unset the flag. > > > > That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an > > 'accessibility violation'. > > > > Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? > > > > - Henrik > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 20:33:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 990BD3B00E4 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:33:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25514-08 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:33:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC7A63B00B9 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:32:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-03.sun.com ([192.18.39.113]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5R0Wp3I018727 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-03.sun.com by d1-sfbay-03.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J1H00101T7TKN00@d1-sfbay-03.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.25.76] by d1-sfbay-03.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J1H0092KTIRRY90@d1-sfbay-03.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:32:50 -0700 From: Peter Korn Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: Chris Jones Message-id: <44A07CB2.4090808@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.539 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.059, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.539 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:33:03 -0000 Hi Chris, I think there are two issues here. Well, three: 1. Can an on-screen keyboard implement "sticky" modifiers without using the system support for sticky modifiers? 2. Can an on-screen keyboard circumvent/disable the system support for sticky modifiers (and slow keys, and...)? 3. Is the right way to "fix" what is "broken" in GOK doing another project rather than working with the existing GOK code to "fix" those "broken" things? I suggest that #3 may be somewhat religious at this point; I'm personally saddened that we aren't at least looking seriously at GOK improvements, but fundamentally a goal of UNIX accessibility is to foster the development of a rich accessibility ecosystem - and a rich ecosystem has room for multiple approaches to similar problems (cf. Orca and Gnopernicus and LSR). I have no issues with #1 - I see no reason why an on-screen keyboard cannot have its own way of making certain modifiers sticky on its own user interface *without* doing so through the system-wide setting mechanisms. Such a decision is I think a valid user-interface policy decision of an individual application. However, it is a direct Section 508 violation for an application to override or ignore system-wide accessibility settings. It is even more egregious for an application that claims to be at least in part for people with disabilities (and thus an 'enlightened' application) to do so. So, my suggestion is that if you simply cannot possible use the system-settings for sticky keys as part of your own UI, that you make things sticky your own way; however that if the system-wide settings are on that you use and respect those (complete with the dialog box that you seem to dislike). Regards, Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. > But this very same thing makes it very awkward who want sticky keys on > the keyboard and non-sticky on a physical. Which would be true for > all non-a11y users and some a11y users. > > In the end though the only manner it interferes with my keyboard is > the annoying dialogue that pops up, and the average gnome-ally user > will probably be plenty used to seeing annoying dialogs anyway. > > The slow keys dialogue however is another matter though. Normal > operations are not resumed until it is dismissed. Which in itself > incredibly annoying. > > When planning the SOK I wanted to stay away from the three odd dialogs > that GOK pops up when it is started. The plain fact is I don't want > any dialogs when starting SOK. At all. > > Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > unacceptable. > > On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > >> On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: >> >>> Chris Jones wrote: >>> >>>> ... >>>> >>>> In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable >>>> for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the >>>> SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and >>>> fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". >>>> >>> Chris, >>> >>> Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the >>> state internally in SOK? IOW: >>> >> We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. >> It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build >> an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use >> it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. >> >> If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key >> while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is >> inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a >> problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock >> status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you >> want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. >> >> google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's >> section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. >> >> regards >> >> Bill >> >> >>> 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked >>> SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. >>> >>> 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time >>> the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift >>> is clicked again you unset the flag. >>> >>> That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an >>> 'accessibility violation'. >>> >>> Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? >>> >>> - Henrik >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >>> >> > > > From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 20:42:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B88403B0319 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:42:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26206-02 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:42:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3F033B02D1 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:42:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-03.sun.com ([192.18.39.113]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5R0gPqD019717 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-03.sun.com by d1-sfbay-03.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J1H00101T7TKN00@d1-sfbay-03.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.25.76] by d1-sfbay-03.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J1H009XQTYLRU70@d1-sfbay-03.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:42:20 -0700 From: Peter Korn Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: <44A07CB2.4090808@sun.com> Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: Chris Jones Message-id: <44A07EEC.1050109@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> <44A07CB2.4090808@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.542 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.056, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.542 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:42:27 -0000 Hi Chris, One more thing. You write: > Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > unacceptable. Have you filed an RFE on this issue (seeking a way to invoke the system-wide Sticky-Keys functionality programatically without the user dialog box), or are you simply trying to "work around it"? I would hope that part of a SoC project is to at least file bugs/RFEs for things you want, even if you "work around them" for the purposes of meeting a project deadline. I would hope that filing bugs/RFEs is part of the purview of SoC projects. Regards, Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. > Hi Chris, > > I think there are two issues here. Well, three: > > 1. Can an on-screen keyboard implement "sticky" modifiers without using > the system support for sticky modifiers? > 2. Can an on-screen keyboard circumvent/disable the system support for > sticky modifiers (and slow keys, and...)? > 3. Is the right way to "fix" what is "broken" in GOK doing another > project rather than working with the existing GOK code to "fix" those > "broken" things? > > I suggest that #3 may be somewhat religious at this point; I'm > personally saddened that we aren't at least looking seriously at GOK > improvements, but fundamentally a goal of UNIX accessibility is to > foster the development of a rich accessibility ecosystem - and a rich > ecosystem has room for multiple approaches to similar problems (cf. Orca > and Gnopernicus and LSR). > > I have no issues with #1 - I see no reason why an on-screen keyboard > cannot have its own way of making certain modifiers sticky on its own > user interface *without* doing so through the system-wide setting > mechanisms. Such a decision is I think a valid user-interface policy > decision of an individual application. > > However, it is a direct Section 508 violation for an application to > override or ignore system-wide accessibility settings. It is even more > egregious for an application that claims to be at least in part for > people with disabilities (and thus an 'enlightened' application) to do so. > > > So, my suggestion is that if you simply cannot possible use the > system-settings for sticky keys as part of your own UI, that you make > things sticky your own way; however that if the system-wide settings are > on that you use and respect those (complete with the dialog box that you > seem to dislike). > > > Regards, > > Peter Korn > Accessibility Architect, > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > >> But this very same thing makes it very awkward who want sticky keys on >> the keyboard and non-sticky on a physical. Which would be true for >> all non-a11y users and some a11y users. >> >> In the end though the only manner it interferes with my keyboard is >> the annoying dialogue that pops up, and the average gnome-ally user >> will probably be plenty used to seeing annoying dialogs anyway. >> >> The slow keys dialogue however is another matter though. Normal >> operations are not resumed until it is dismissed. Which in itself >> incredibly annoying. >> >> When planning the SOK I wanted to stay away from the three odd dialogs >> that GOK pops up when it is started. The plain fact is I don't want >> any dialogs when starting SOK. At all. >> >> Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one >> dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely >> unacceptable. >> >> On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: >> >> >>> On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Chris Jones wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> ... >>>>> >>>>> In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable >>>>> for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the >>>>> SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and >>>>> fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Chris, >>>> >>>> Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the >>>> state internally in SOK? IOW: >>>> >>>> >>> We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. >>> It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build >>> an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use >>> it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. >>> >>> If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key >>> while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is >>> inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a >>> problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock >>> status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you >>> want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. >>> >>> google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's >>> section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. >>> >>> regards >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> >>> >>>> 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked >>>> SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. >>>> >>>> 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time >>>> the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift >>>> is clicked again you unset the flag. >>>> >>>> That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an >>>> 'accessibility violation'. >>>> >>>> Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? >>>> >>>> - Henrik >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >>>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >>>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > From cerha@brailcom.org Tue Jun 27 03:30:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 380E63B02F3 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 03:30:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12733-05 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 03:30:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gate.brailcom.cz (158-84-244-84.strcechy.adsl-llu.static.bluetone.cz [84.244.84.158]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C08F93B0224 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 03:30:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 12155 invoked from network); 27 Jun 2006 09:09:08 +0200 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.15.2?) (192.168.15.2) by ns.brailcom.xx with SMTP; 27 Jun 2006 09:09:08 +0200 Message-ID: <44A0FAB5.7070906@brailcom.org> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:30:29 +0200 From: Tomas Cerha Organization: Brailcom, o.p.s. User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060626091722.GA16369@themuso.com> In-Reply-To: <20060626091722.GA16369@themuso.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.394 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.070, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.394 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 07:30:33 -0000 Luke Yelavich wrote: > Mind I ask when this is likely to be completed? > If you would like testers, I would be happy to put my hand up and try. Hi Luke, I hope to be able to make something available this week, but can't promise, since I'm at Guadec and it might be hard to find some spare time. If not, then I'll be back at work by the middle of July. I will definitely announce it as soon as there is something. Best regards, Tomas. -- Brailcom, o.p.s. http://www.brailcom.org Free(b)soft project http://www.freebsoft.org Eurochance project http://eurochance.brailcom.org From obert01@terramitica.net Tue Jun 27 05:58:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFB0B3B02C5 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 05:58:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21911-02 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 05:58:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sunset.terramitica.net (terramitica.net [82.230.142.140]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0F573B0088 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 05:58:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sunset.terramitica.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6D84D1FFC1; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:57:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:57:47 +0200 From: Olivier BERT To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech Message-ID: <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.567 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.032, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.567 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 09:58:45 -0000 > I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This > bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher > offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, this > may be essential for some people and the Orca -> Gnome Speech -> Speech > Dispatcher -> synthesizer aproach has inherent problems. This might > solve your problem too. > > Please, see also the common "TTS API" draft at > http://www.freebsoft.org/tts-api. This is a common effort of Free > Desktop and FSG. Very very good idea. Unfortunately, gnome-speech was not very stable, sometimes speech randomly stops. And it's true that it will optimize the speech chain. orca -> gnome speech -> speech-dispatcher -> synthesis was quite long :) And so, it must be nearly impossible to debug it. So thanks very much Tomas for this work ! -- Olivier BERT e-mail: obert01@mistigri.org Etudiant a l'E.P.I.T.A. (cycle ingenieur, 3eme annee) Tel: 06 07 69 79 71 From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Tue Jun 27 06:55:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AE9B3B009A for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 06:55:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24503-05 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 06:55:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EA133B006C for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 06:55:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5RAtKd4008557 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 04:55:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1I00501MBGFB@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:55:19 +0100 (BST) Received: from dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM (dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM [129.156.226.143]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1I002FWMC7GU@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:55:19 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:56:31 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: To: Chris Jones Message-id: <1151405791.7083.10.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.497 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.101, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.497 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 10:55:57 -0000 Hi Chris: I'll try to respond to each of your points in turn: On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 00:51, Chris Jones wrote: > But this very same thing makes it very awkward who want sticky keys on > the keyboard and non-sticky on a physical. Which would be true for > all non-a11y users and some a11y users. I don't understand what you are saying here, "the very same thing." My suggestion to use XKB client API would make it quite feasible for the physical keyboard to be non-sticky and for the onscreen keyboard to be sticky. Please re-read my post and check the XKB APIs. If after investigating it you still can't find what you are looking for, email me and I will try to assist - but you should read section 10.6 of the XKBlib manual first. > In the end though the only manner it interferes with my keyboard is > the annoying dialogue that pops up, and the average gnome-ally user > will probably be plenty used to seeing annoying dialogs anyway. The dialog pops up because you are indeed turning on SlowKeys. This is because of the way in which you are implementing sticky-keys in your application. What you should avoid is generating a key-press without a following key-release, since this triggers SlowKeys just as it does when you press and hold the Shift key on the physical keyboard. Perhaps you are talking about some other dialog as well? I'm afraid it's not clear from your messages. > The slow keys dialogue however is another matter though. Normal > operations are not resumed until it is dismissed. Which in itself > incredibly annoying. Without it, the keyboard would silently begin to require long press and hold sequences in order to work; this is necessary for users with some types of disabilities, but it's essential that the end user be warned when the keyboard's behavior is being changed in this way (in response to end user action, which is the case here). > When planning the SOK I wanted to stay away from the three odd dialogs > that GOK pops up when it is started. The plain fact is I don't want > any dialogs when starting SOK. At all. You can make GOK suppress those warnings I believe. If you do get them, READ THEM, they are telling you that your system has serious configuration issues which may make GOK unusable! > Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > unacceptable. This isn't at all true. You can easily programmatically turn this feature on when your keyboard starts, and turn it off when it exits - you can even turn the feature on and off when the mouse enters and leaves your keyboard, if that's what you want. Bear in mind that ANY onscreen keyboard that uses the mouse will fail to work properly when used to pop up menus, etc. via keyboard navigation, because of system toolkit pointer grabs. Are you aware of that fact? It will strike your onscreen keyboard as well. This is the reason for GOK's somewhat brittle configuration requirements, and the reason you are warned not to use GOK via the system core pointer. Bill > On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote > > > Chris Jones wrote: > > > > ... > > > > > > > > In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > > > > for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > > > > SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > > > > fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". > > > Chris, > > > > > > Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the > > > state internally in SOK? IOW: > > > > We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. > > It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build > > an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use > > it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. > > > > If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key > > while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is > > inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a > > problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock > > status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you > > want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. > > > > google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's > > section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. > > > > regards > > > > Bill > > > > > 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked > > > SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. > > > > > > 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time > > > the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift > > > is clicked again you unset the flag. > > > > > > That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an > > > 'accessibility violation'. > > > > > > Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? > > > > > > - Henrik > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > -- > Chris Jones > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Tue Jun 27 06:57:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D80933B00FF for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 06:57:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24638-04 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 06:57:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 877CE3B0098 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 06:57:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5RAvL7o009675 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 04:57:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1I00501MBGFB@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:57:20 +0100 (BST) Received: from dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM (dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM [129.156.226.143]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1I0021LMFKGU@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:57:20 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:58:32 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: <44A07EEC.1050109@sun.com> To: Peter Korn Message-id: <1151405912.7083.13.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> <44A07CB2.4090808@sun.com> <44A07EEC.1050109@sun.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.498 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.498 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 10:57:47 -0000 On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 01:42, Peter Korn wrote: > Hi Chris, > > One more thing. You write: > > > Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > > dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > > unacceptable. > > Have you filed an RFE on this issue (seeking a way to invoke the > system-wide Sticky-Keys functionality programatically without the user > dialog box), This is trivial to do. If you modify the key via gconf API, either by linking to gconf or just spawning a gconftool-2 command line, then you can change these settings without triggering the warning dialogs. If this has somehow regressed (it has worked on every system I know of, for several years), then a bug needs to be filed. Billy > or are you simply trying to "work around it"? I would hope > that part of a SoC project is to at least file bugs/RFEs for things you > want, even if you "work around them" for the purposes of meeting a > project deadline. I would hope that filing bugs/RFEs is part of the > purview of SoC projects. > > Regards, > > > Peter Korn > Accessibility Architect, > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > > Hi Chris, > > > > I think there are two issues here. Well, three: > > > > 1. Can an on-screen keyboard implement "sticky" modifiers without using > > the system support for sticky modifiers? > > 2. Can an on-screen keyboard circumvent/disable the system support for > > sticky modifiers (and slow keys, and...)? > > 3. Is the right way to "fix" what is "broken" in GOK doing another > > project rather than working with the existing GOK code to "fix" those > > "broken" things? > > > > I suggest that #3 may be somewhat religious at this point; I'm > > personally saddened that we aren't at least looking seriously at GOK > > improvements, but fundamentally a goal of UNIX accessibility is to > > foster the development of a rich accessibility ecosystem - and a rich > > ecosystem has room for multiple approaches to similar problems (cf. Orca > > and Gnopernicus and LSR). > > > > I have no issues with #1 - I see no reason why an on-screen keyboard > > cannot have its own way of making certain modifiers sticky on its own > > user interface *without* doing so through the system-wide setting > > mechanisms. Such a decision is I think a valid user-interface policy > > decision of an individual application. > > > > However, it is a direct Section 508 violation for an application to > > override or ignore system-wide accessibility settings. It is even more > > egregious for an application that claims to be at least in part for > > people with disabilities (and thus an 'enlightened' application) to do so. > > > > > > So, my suggestion is that if you simply cannot possible use the > > system-settings for sticky keys as part of your own UI, that you make > > things sticky your own way; however that if the system-wide settings are > > on that you use and respect those (complete with the dialog box that you > > seem to dislike). > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Peter Korn > > Accessibility Architect, > > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > > > > >> But this very same thing makes it very awkward who want sticky keys on > >> the keyboard and non-sticky on a physical. Which would be true for > >> all non-a11y users and some a11y users. > >> > >> In the end though the only manner it interferes with my keyboard is > >> the annoying dialogue that pops up, and the average gnome-ally user > >> will probably be plenty used to seeing annoying dialogs anyway. > >> > >> The slow keys dialogue however is another matter though. Normal > >> operations are not resumed until it is dismissed. Which in itself > >> incredibly annoying. > >> > >> When planning the SOK I wanted to stay away from the three odd dialogs > >> that GOK pops up when it is started. The plain fact is I don't want > >> any dialogs when starting SOK. At all. > >> > >> Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > >> dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > >> unacceptable. > >> > >> On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > >> > >> > >>> On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> Chris Jones wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> ... > >>>>> > >>>>> In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > >>>>> for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > >>>>> SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > >>>>> fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> Chris, > >>>> > >>>> Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the > >>>> state internally in SOK? IOW: > >>>> > >>>> > >>> We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. > >>> It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build > >>> an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use > >>> it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. > >>> > >>> If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key > >>> while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is > >>> inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a > >>> problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock > >>> status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you > >>> want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. > >>> > >>> google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's > >>> section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. > >>> > >>> regards > >>> > >>> Bill > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked > >>>> SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. > >>>> > >>>> 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time > >>>> the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift > >>>> is clicked again you unset the flag. > >>>> > >>>> That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an > >>>> 'accessibility violation'. > >>>> > >>>> Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? > >>>> > >>>> - Henrik > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > >>>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > >>>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Tue Jun 27 07:39:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FE523B00B3 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 07:39:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26317-07 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 07:39:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36A743B0008 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 07:39:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5RBdWO3020902 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 05:39:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1I00401O8QXW@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:39:32 +0100 (BST) Received: from dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM (dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM [129.156.226.143]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1I00FEIODV70@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:39:32 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:40:44 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech In-reply-to: <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> To: Olivier BERT Message-id: <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.504 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.094, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.504 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:39:41 -0000 On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 10:57, Olivier BERT wrote: > > I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This > > bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher > > offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, Does Speech Dispatcher support something other than Festival now? Gnome-speech has support for quite a few speech engines including some commercial ones with much clearer speech. Unfortunately one of the best values and clearest sounding options, 'Theta' from Cepstral, has been obsoleted by the new Cepstral Swift engine; we need someone to port the Theta support over the Cepstral. While free voices and engines are really important, for some users clarity of speech is paramount, so it's important to have support for at least the less expensive non-free TTS engines. I don't have any objection to using Speech Dispatcher as a common back-end, if there are more resources available to keep it up to date compared to gnome-speech. But we shouldn't move over entirely until we have comparable driver support. One area where Speech Dispatcher seems to be ahead is in support for non-English Festival voices, but I think that testing is the only impediment to using the non-Engish voices in gnome-speech as well (the Festival API is the same in either case). regards Bill > this > > may be essential for some people and the Orca -> Gnome Speech -> Speech > > Dispatcher -> synthesizer aproach has inherent problems. This might > > solve your problem too. > > > > Please, see also the common "TTS API" draft at > > http://www.freebsoft.org/tts-api. This is a common effort of Free > > Desktop and FSG. > > Very very good idea. > Unfortunately, gnome-speech was not very stable, sometimes speech > randomly stops. > And it's true that it will optimize the speech chain. orca -> gnome > speech -> speech-dispatcher -> synthesis was quite long :) And so, it > must be nearly impossible to debug it. > > So thanks very much Tomas for this work ! > -- > Olivier BERT > e-mail: obert01@mistigri.org > Etudiant a l'E.P.I.T.A. (cycle ingenieur, 3eme annee) > Tel: 06 07 69 79 71 > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From wvdwalt@csir.co.za Tue Jun 27 07:55:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 687933B009B for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 07:55:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26868-08 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 07:54:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apollo.csir.co.za (mx-4.csir.co.za [146.64.10.99]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 698433B0011 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 07:54:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([146.64.19.125]) by apollo.csir.co.za (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k5RBrpgB010902; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:53:51 +0200 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k5RBohn3013165; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:50:43 +0200 Received: from localhost (wvdwalt@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) with ESMTP id k5RBohUb013155; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:50:43 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: wvdwalt owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:50:43 +0200 (SAST) From: Willem van der Walt X-X-Sender: wvdwalt@localhost.localdomain To: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech In-Reply-To: <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> Message-ID: References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-CSIR-MailScanner-Information: Please contact sys-admin at csir dot co dot za for more information X-CSIR-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: wvdwalt@csir.co.za X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.555 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.044, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.555 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:55:00 -0000 Speech-dispatcher has support for the DECTalk Software speech and Viavoice/TTSynth. It also has a generic module through which one can make it work using any synthesizer that can take text on the command-line and speak it. Speech-dispatcher is very stable, even when using an unstable generic synthesizer. Although the generic module has some limits, in practice, it works well. HTH, Willem On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Bill Haneman wrote: > On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 10:57, Olivier BERT wrote: >>> I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This >>> bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher >>> offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, > > Does Speech Dispatcher support something other than Festival now? > Gnome-speech has support for quite a few speech engines including some > commercial ones with much clearer speech. Unfortunately one of the best > values and clearest sounding options, 'Theta' from Cepstral, has been > obsoleted by the new Cepstral Swift engine; we need someone to port the > Theta support over the Cepstral. > > While free voices and engines are really important, for some users > clarity of speech is paramount, so it's important to have support for at > least the less expensive non-free TTS engines. > > I don't have any objection to using Speech Dispatcher as a common > back-end, if there are more resources available to keep it up to date > compared to gnome-speech. But we shouldn't move over entirely until we > have comparable driver support. One area where Speech Dispatcher seems > to be ahead is in support for non-English Festival voices, but I think > that testing is the only impediment to using the non-Engish voices in > gnome-speech as well (the Festival API is the same in either case). > > regards > > Bill > >> this >>> may be essential for some people and the Orca -> Gnome Speech -> Speech >>> Dispatcher -> synthesizer aproach has inherent problems. This might >>> solve your problem too. >>> >>> Please, see also the common "TTS API" draft at >>> http://www.freebsoft.org/tts-api. This is a common effort of Free >>> Desktop and FSG. >> >> Very very good idea. >> Unfortunately, gnome-speech was not very stable, sometimes speech >> randomly stops. >> And it's true that it will optimize the speech chain. orca -> gnome >> speech -> speech-dispatcher -> synthesis was quite long :) And so, it >> must be nearly impossible to debug it. >> >> So thanks very much Tomas for this work ! >> -- >> Olivier BERT >> e-mail: obert01@mistigri.org >> Etudiant a l'E.P.I.T.A. (cycle ingenieur, 3eme annee) >> Tel: 06 07 69 79 71 >> _______________________________________________ >> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > -- This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright, terms and conditions and e-mail legal notice. Views expressed herein do not necessarily represent the views of the CSIR. CSIR E-mail Legal Notice http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_eMail_Legal_Notice.html CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_Copyright.html For electronic copies of the CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions and the CSIR Legal Notice send a blank message with REQUEST LEGAL in the subject line to HelpDesk@csir.co.za. This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. MailScanner thanks Transtec Computers for their support. From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Tue Jun 27 08:26:59 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 454083B0072 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:26:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28277-08 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:26:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Sun.COM [192.18.98.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E8F03B0012 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:26:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5RCPnX2015364 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 06:26:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1I00K01PZQJ4@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:17:46 +0100 (BST) Received: from dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM (dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM [129.156.226.143]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1I00FBPQ5670@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:17:30 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:18:42 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech In-reply-to: To: Willem van der Walt Message-id: <1151410722.7842.27.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.507 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.091, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.507 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:26:59 -0000 Hi Willem: That's good news about the DECTalk and TTSynth support. If we could get a Cepstral/Swift module as well, I think we'd have the major synths covered. Perhaps the gnome-speech FreeTTS code could be ported to the SpeechDispatcher API someday, to give us two free engines (especially now that Java licensing is more acceptable to free distros). I suspect the 'generic module' may not work well for screen readers because of the need for speech markers or at least "end of speech" notification, but it's still useful for some things of course. regards Bill On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 12:50, Willem van der Walt wrote: > Speech-dispatcher has support for the DECTalk Software speech and > Viavoice/TTSynth. It also has a generic module through which one can make > it work using any synthesizer that can take text on the command-line and > speak it. > Speech-dispatcher is very stable, even when using an unstable generic > synthesizer. > Although the generic module has some limits, in practice, it works well. > HTH, Willem > > On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Bill Haneman wrote: > > > On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 10:57, Olivier BERT wrote: > >>> I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This > >>> bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher > >>> offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, > > > > Does Speech Dispatcher support something other than Festival now? > > Gnome-speech has support for quite a few speech engines including some > > commercial ones with much clearer speech. Unfortunately one of the best > > values and clearest sounding options, 'Theta' from Cepstral, has been > > obsoleted by the new Cepstral Swift engine; we need someone to port the > > Theta support over the Cepstral. > > > > While free voices and engines are really important, for some users > > clarity of speech is paramount, so it's important to have support for at > > least the less expensive non-free TTS engines. > > > > I don't have any objection to using Speech Dispatcher as a common > > back-end, if there are more resources available to keep it up to date > > compared to gnome-speech. But we shouldn't move over entirely until we > > have comparable driver support. One area where Speech Dispatcher seems > > to be ahead is in support for non-English Festival voices, but I think > > that testing is the only impediment to using the non-Engish voices in > > gnome-speech as well (the Festival API is the same in either case). > > > > regards > > > > Bill > > > >> this > >>> may be essential for some people and the Orca -> Gnome Speech -> Speech > >>> Dispatcher -> synthesizer aproach has inherent problems. This might > >>> solve your problem too. > >>> > >>> Please, see also the common "TTS API" draft at > >>> http://www.freebsoft.org/tts-api. This is a common effort of Free > >>> Desktop and FSG. > >> > >> Very very good idea. > >> Unfortunately, gnome-speech was not very stable, sometimes speech > >> randomly stops. > >> And it's true that it will optimize the speech chain. orca -> gnome > >> speech -> speech-dispatcher -> synthesis was quite long :) And so, it > >> must be nearly impossible to debug it. > >> > >> So thanks very much Tomas for this work ! > >> -- > >> Olivier BERT > >> e-mail: obert01@mistigri.org > >> Etudiant a l'E.P.I.T.A. (cycle ingenieur, 3eme annee) > >> Tel: 06 07 69 79 71 > >> _______________________________________________ > >> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > >> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > -- > This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright, terms and conditions and > e-mail legal notice. Views expressed herein do not necessarily represent the > views of the CSIR. > > CSIR E-mail Legal Notice > http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_eMail_Legal_Notice.html > > CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions > http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_Copyright.html > > For electronic copies of the CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions and the CSIR > Legal Notice send a blank message with REQUEST LEGAL in the subject line to > HelpDesk@csir.co.za. > > > This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, > and is believed to be clean. MailScanner thanks Transtec Computers for their support. > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From wvdwalt@csir.co.za Tue Jun 27 08:38:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DDF33B0011 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:38:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28814-05 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:38:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apollo.csir.co.za (mx-4.csir.co.za [146.64.10.99]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2CFD3B0072 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:38:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([146.64.19.125]) by apollo.csir.co.za (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k5RCaUHp001391; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:36:30 +0200 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k5RCXMJn028019; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:33:22 +0200 Received: from localhost (wvdwalt@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) with ESMTP id k5RCXM19028011; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:33:22 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: wvdwalt owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:33:22 +0200 (SAST) From: Willem van der Walt X-X-Sender: wvdwalt@localhost.localdomain To: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech In-Reply-To: <1151410722.7842.27.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> Message-ID: References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> <1151410722.7842.27.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-CSIR-MailScanner-Information: Please contact sys-admin at csir dot co dot za for more information X-CSIR-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: wvdwalt@csir.co.za X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.559 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.040, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.559 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:38:34 -0000 Speech-dispatcher in general works well with screen readers. I am using it with its generic module as I am writing this email. It stops speech by killing the command-line program that is executed by the generic module. This works better than one would expect. When testing Orca or Gnopernicus, I these days always use the speech-dispatcher driver in gnome-speech to drive a synth through the generic speech-dispatcher module. As I recall, Swift also has some command-line program that can say a phrase or two, so it should be relativly easy to make that work also. Regards, Willem On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Bill Haneman wrote: > Hi Willem: > > That's good news about the DECTalk and TTSynth support. If we could get > a Cepstral/Swift module as well, I think we'd have the major synths > covered. Perhaps the gnome-speech FreeTTS code could be ported to the > SpeechDispatcher API someday, to give us two free engines (especially > now that Java licensing is more acceptable to free distros). > > I suspect the 'generic module' may not work well for screen readers > because of the need for speech markers or at least "end of speech" > notification, but it's still useful for some things of course. > > regards > > Bill > > On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 12:50, Willem van der Walt wrote: >> Speech-dispatcher has support for the DECTalk Software speech and >> Viavoice/TTSynth. It also has a generic module through which one can make >> it work using any synthesizer that can take text on the command-line and >> speak it. >> Speech-dispatcher is very stable, even when using an unstable generic >> synthesizer. >> Although the generic module has some limits, in practice, it works well. >> HTH, Willem >> >> On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Bill Haneman wrote: >> >>> On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 10:57, Olivier BERT wrote: >>>>> I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This >>>>> bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher >>>>> offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, >>> >>> Does Speech Dispatcher support something other than Festival now? >>> Gnome-speech has support for quite a few speech engines including some >>> commercial ones with much clearer speech. Unfortunately one of the best >>> values and clearest sounding options, 'Theta' from Cepstral, has been >>> obsoleted by the new Cepstral Swift engine; we need someone to port the >>> Theta support over the Cepstral. >>> >>> While free voices and engines are really important, for some users >>> clarity of speech is paramount, so it's important to have support for at >>> least the less expensive non-free TTS engines. >>> >>> I don't have any objection to using Speech Dispatcher as a common >>> back-end, if there are more resources available to keep it up to date >>> compared to gnome-speech. But we shouldn't move over entirely until we >>> have comparable driver support. One area where Speech Dispatcher seems >>> to be ahead is in support for non-English Festival voices, but I think >>> that testing is the only impediment to using the non-Engish voices in >>> gnome-speech as well (the Festival API is the same in either case). >>> >>> regards >>> >>> Bill >>> >>>> this >>>>> may be essential for some people and the Orca -> Gnome Speech -> Speech >>>>> Dispatcher -> synthesizer aproach has inherent problems. This might >>>>> solve your problem too. >>>>> >>>>> Please, see also the common "TTS API" draft at >>>>> http://www.freebsoft.org/tts-api. This is a common effort of Free >>>>> Desktop and FSG. >>>> >>>> Very very good idea. >>>> Unfortunately, gnome-speech was not very stable, sometimes speech >>>> randomly stops. >>>> And it's true that it will optimize the speech chain. orca -> gnome >>>> speech -> speech-dispatcher -> synthesis was quite long :) And so, it >>>> must be nearly impossible to debug it. >>>> >>>> So thanks very much Tomas for this work ! >>>> -- >>>> Olivier BERT >>>> e-mail: obert01@mistigri.org >>>> Etudiant a l'E.P.I.T.A. (cycle ingenieur, 3eme annee) >>>> Tel: 06 07 69 79 71 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >>>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >>>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >>> >> >> -- >> This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright, terms and conditions and >> e-mail legal notice. Views expressed herein do not necessarily represent the >> views of the CSIR. >> >> CSIR E-mail Legal Notice >> http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_eMail_Legal_Notice.html >> >> CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions >> http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_Copyright.html >> >> For electronic copies of the CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions and the CSIR >> Legal Notice send a blank message with REQUEST LEGAL in the subject line to >> HelpDesk@csir.co.za. >> >> >> This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, >> and is believed to be clean. MailScanner thanks Transtec Computers for their support. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > -- This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright, terms and conditions and e-mail legal notice. Views expressed herein do not necessarily represent the views of the CSIR. CSIR E-mail Legal Notice http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_eMail_Legal_Notice.html CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_Copyright.html For electronic copies of the CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions and the CSIR Legal Notice send a blank message with REQUEST LEGAL in the subject line to HelpDesk@csir.co.za. This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. MailScanner thanks Transtec Computers for their support. From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Tue Jun 27 11:04:08 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C04763B0012 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:04:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04869-01 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:04:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.199]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9A9F3B0133 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:04:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 13so238241nzn for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.22.68 with SMTP id z68mr4475507nzi; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.73.15 with HTTP; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:03:35 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-Reply-To: <1151405912.7083.13.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> <44A07CB2.4090808@sun.com> <44A07EEC.1050109@sun.com> <1151405912.7083.13.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.494 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.093, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.494 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:04:08 -0000 "The very same thing" refers to where you say that disabled users will complain if the onscreen keyboard conflicts with sticky keys. What I am trying to say is that an onscreen keyboard should work whether sticky keys is on or not. Surely an application changing system wide settings just so it can run, is an accessibility violation as the user might rely on non-sticky behaviour on the physical keyboard. In other words one input device should not change the behaviour of all the others. You keep referring to xkblib. To get this to work I would have to change the x config to have an extra keyboard device. The XTest api I am currently using does not allow me to specify which keyboard device I am emulating either. I have difficulty seeing how I could use this. I understand the need for the dialogs. If the system-wide settings are changing then I agree a dialog is needed. This is yet another reason why I do not want to change the system wide settings. I can see why GOK behaves as it does. My opinion though is that it is not acceptable, another method must be found to solve the issue. Bill Haneman said: >Bear in mind that ANY onscreen keyboard that uses the mouse will fail to >work properly when used to pop up menus, etc. via keyboard navigation, >because of system toolkit pointer grabs. Are you aware of that fact? >It will strike your onscreen keyboard as well. This is the reason for >GOK's somewhat brittle configuration requirements, and the reason you >are warned not to use GOK via the system core pointer. I find this difficult to understand, surely pop up menus are a pointer operation to begin with, and that it is possible to emulate this with a physical keyboard. I fail to see the point of emulating this emulation with a pointer. Except if one was using a pointer to emulate a scanning device. Perhaps it would make more sense to disconnect the core pointer when GOK enters it's scanning mode? Maybe it is just impossible to design a one-size fits all onscreen keyboard. As evidenced by GOK, the result is a keyboard that is accessible to everyone but usable by no-one. On 27/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 01:42, Peter Korn wrote: > > Hi Chris, > > > > One more thing. You write: > > > > > Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > > > dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > > > unacceptable. > > > > Have you filed an RFE on this issue (seeking a way to invoke the > > system-wide Sticky-Keys functionality programatically without the user > > dialog box), > > This is trivial to do. If you modify the key via gconf API, either by > linking to gconf or just spawning a gconftool-2 command line, then you > can change these settings without triggering the warning dialogs. If > this has somehow regressed (it has worked on every system I know of, for > several years), then a bug needs to be filed. > > Billy > > > or are you simply trying to "work around it"? I would hope > > that part of a SoC project is to at least file bugs/RFEs for things you > > want, even if you "work around them" for the purposes of meeting a > > project deadline. I would hope that filing bugs/RFEs is part of the > > purview of SoC projects. > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Peter Korn > > Accessibility Architect, > > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > > > > Hi Chris, > > > > > > I think there are two issues here. Well, three: > > > > > > 1. Can an on-screen keyboard implement "sticky" modifiers without using > > > the system support for sticky modifiers? > > > 2. Can an on-screen keyboard circumvent/disable the system support for > > > sticky modifiers (and slow keys, and...)? > > > 3. Is the right way to "fix" what is "broken" in GOK doing another > > > project rather than working with the existing GOK code to "fix" those > > > "broken" things? > > > > > > I suggest that #3 may be somewhat religious at this point; I'm > > > personally saddened that we aren't at least looking seriously at GOK > > > improvements, but fundamentally a goal of UNIX accessibility is to > > > foster the development of a rich accessibility ecosystem - and a rich > > > ecosystem has room for multiple approaches to similar problems (cf. Orca > > > and Gnopernicus and LSR). > > > > > > I have no issues with #1 - I see no reason why an on-screen keyboard > > > cannot have its own way of making certain modifiers sticky on its own > > > user interface *without* doing so through the system-wide setting > > > mechanisms. Such a decision is I think a valid user-interface policy > > > decision of an individual application. > > > > > > However, it is a direct Section 508 violation for an application to > > > override or ignore system-wide accessibility settings. It is even more > > > egregious for an application that claims to be at least in part for > > > people with disabilities (and thus an 'enlightened' application) to do so. > > > > > > > > > So, my suggestion is that if you simply cannot possible use the > > > system-settings for sticky keys as part of your own UI, that you make > > > things sticky your own way; however that if the system-wide settings are > > > on that you use and respect those (complete with the dialog box that you > > > seem to dislike). > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Peter Korn > > > Accessibility Architect, > > > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > > > > > > > >> But this very same thing makes it very awkward who want sticky keys on > > >> the keyboard and non-sticky on a physical. Which would be true for > > >> all non-a11y users and some a11y users. > > >> > > >> In the end though the only manner it interferes with my keyboard is > > >> the annoying dialogue that pops up, and the average gnome-ally user > > >> will probably be plenty used to seeing annoying dialogs anyway. > > >> > > >> The slow keys dialogue however is another matter though. Normal > > >> operations are not resumed until it is dismissed. Which in itself > > >> incredibly annoying. > > >> > > >> When planning the SOK I wanted to stay away from the three odd dialogs > > >> that GOK pops up when it is started. The plain fact is I don't want > > >> any dialogs when starting SOK. At all. > > >> > > >> Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > > >> dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > > >> unacceptable. > > >> > > >> On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >>> On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>> Chris Jones wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>> ... > > >>>>> > > >>>>> In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > > >>>>> for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > > >>>>> SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > > >>>>> fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>> Chris, > > >>>> > > >>>> Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the > > >>>> state internally in SOK? IOW: > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. > > >>> It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build > > >>> an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use > > >>> it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. > > >>> > > >>> If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key > > >>> while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is > > >>> inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a > > >>> problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock > > >>> status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you > > >>> want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. > > >>> > > >>> google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's > > >>> section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. > > >>> > > >>> regards > > >>> > > >>> Bill > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>> 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked > > >>>> SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. > > >>>> > > >>>> 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time > > >>>> the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift > > >>>> is clicked again you unset the flag. > > >>>> > > >>>> That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an > > >>>> 'accessibility violation'. > > >>>> > > >>>> Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? > > >>>> > > >>>> - Henrik > > >>>> > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > >>>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > >>>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From hanke@brailcom.org Tue Jun 27 11:06:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3773D3B0106 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:06:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05080-01 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:06:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp-out4.iol.cz (smtp-out4.iol.cz [194.228.2.92]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 844FA3B00E2 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:06:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from antivir4.iol.cz (avir4 [192.168.30.209]) by smtp-out4.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id E011A743C2 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:06:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (antivir4.iol.cz [127.0.0.1]) by antivir4.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id CADA6240024 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:06:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp-out4.iol.cz (smtp-out-4.iplanet.iol.cz [192.168.30.31]) by antivir4.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88F7C240021 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:06:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.36] (77.93.broadband2.iol.cz [83.208.93.77]) by smtp-out4.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14E2622AF58 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:06:09 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech From: Hynek Hanke To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:04:37 +0200 Message-Id: <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at iol.cz X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.464 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.464 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:06:46 -0000 Hello, I'd like to address a few points. * First, as we discussed on accessibility@freedesktop.org (if someone is not subscribed, you are welcome to join), we want to create a new API to access speech synthesis. This shouldn't be looked at as "yet-another" speech API. Rather, we did some prototypes in Gnome Speech, Speech Dispatcher and KTTSD and found some dead ends and some new requirements. Also, in the Speech Dispatcher especially we found the most clean way to proceed forwards is to split it into two separate parts: one message handling and prioritization and the second interface with speech engines. So with a fresh mind, several people were working on putting down our common (Brailcom projects, Speakup, Gnome, KDE) requirements on such speech API. This document is fairly complete by now and we are at the point when we are starting implementation. The most beneficial way how to contribute to speech synthesis support right now is to help with TTS API and when the infrastructure is in place, develop modules for TTS API. (Not that we will rewrite all modules, I already know the existing Dispatcher modules will require only minor modifications in short term.) This doesn't address the problem of how Gnome applications should interface with it. Either Gnome Speech could be modified to use TTS API or the applications go through some other tool like Speech Dispatcher. I think an Orca module for Speech Dispatcher makes very much sense. An important thing is that both projects are desktop independent. * Another thing several people asked were dates. As for the Orca module for Dispatcher, Tomas already answered the question. The TTS API implementation we hope to have finished in time for the KDE developers to connect KTTS with Speech Dispatcher for KDE4. Also, next major Speech Dispatcher release will already work on top of TTS API and several major improvements will be made to its interface (SSIP). Of course, this is all hopes. * Enrico suggested we should use Festival C API instead of talking to it via TCP. Also Olivier mentioned the whole chain to be too long and source of troubles. However, I suspect the problem is not in the chain being too long as much as in both Festival and Gnome Speech lacking proper detailed logs. In Speech Dispatcher we also use Festival via TCP (actually Gnome Speech doesn't, it runs the binary) and to my experience, this is a good advantage for debugging. It is very easy to log the communication with Festival, so for the developer it is easy to see what went wrong if something does. It is also easy to send very informative bug reports. Also, we have found the connection randomly crashes for no apparent reason. It is indeed far better if we can just detect it, log it and create a new connection and reset the parameters automatically (as we do now) than if such a crash would bring down the whole module (if we were using the C API) for no clear reason. (Another one: in the current version of Dispatcher, sometimes a very mysterious segfault happens. I suspect this has something to do with ALSA, but it is very hard to tell as we link ALSA directly and the crash is not reproducible in testing circumstances...) Now, one of the big problems is that Festival doesn't offer proper logs. It would often refuse connection for a stupid typo in the configuration file and not give any clue to the user. This is something which should be fixed. * The generic output module proved to be very useful. But I must object to the claim that it can do mostly everything. It can talk and provide the basic level of synchronization information necessary for screen readers, but it doesn't support any more advanced things. Users don't notice with Speakup because Speakup doesn't use more advanced capabilities of the synthesizer, but you would surely very soon notice the difference with Festival in clients like speechd-el which use its full power. A native module is much better when someone does it. But TTS API will provide a generic module too and I already have a list of things which I'd like to improve. * I hope the Cepstrall/Swift and FreeTTS modules will be ported under TTS API eventually. At least this was the intention. Have an API that doesn't limit anyone and move everything there to a common code base which we can mantain together. Thanks for attention. I apologize for a long post. With regards, Hynek Hanke From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Tue Jun 27 11:23:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 778703B010A for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:23:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05508-07 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:22:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0D133B009B for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:22:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5RFMMn5028702 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 09:22:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1I00601YM47U@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:22:21 +0100 (BST) Received: from dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM (dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM [129.156.226.143]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1I007X7YP9BI@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:22:21 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:23:33 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: To: Chris Jones Message-id: <1151421813.7842.72.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> <44A07CB2.4090808@sun.com> <44A07EEC.1050109@sun.com> <1151405912.7083.13.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.51 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.088, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.51 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:23:00 -0000 On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 16:03, Chris Jones wrote: > "The very same thing" refers to where you say that disabled users will > complain if the onscreen keyboard conflicts with sticky keys. > > What I am trying to say is that an onscreen keyboard should work > whether sticky keys is on or not. By its very nature, an onscreen keyboard (which will be emulating physical keypresses) will interact with the physical keyboard driver and settings. This means that interoperability with things like XKB is just a requirement of the task at hand. > Surely an application changing system wide settings just so it can > run, is an accessibility violation as the user might rely on > non-sticky behaviour on the physical keyboard. In other words one > input device should not change the behaviour of all the others. I have suggested several alternatives. It is folly to create an onscreen keyboard which emulates physical keypresses and then pretend that it is independent of the physical keyboard - it's just not realistic, since you'll be using Xtest "Fake" API to fake key presses anyway. > You keep referring to xkblib. To get this to work I would have to > change the x config to have an extra keyboard device. That is not true! > The XTest api I > am currently using does not allow me to specify which keyboard device > I am emulating either. I have difficulty seeing how I could use this. Have you read the document section which I recommended to you? It allows you to programmatically change the latch state of specific modifiers, WITHOUT simulating a "press-and-hold". It allows you to do this in a way that does not change the way the physical keyboard works, and doesn't trigger any warning dialogs. XKB is available by default on the XOrg server, so you shouldn't need to change your X configuration at all. > I understand the need for the dialogs. If the system-wide settings > are changing then I agree a dialog is needed. This is yet another > reason why I do not want to change the system wide settings. The dialog does not post anytime the system-wide settings change - it only posts in response to a change which it believes comes from the SlowKeys or StickyKeys keyboard gesture. As long as your keyboard latches keys by simulating a key press and then simulating a release at a later time in the future, you will collide with this dialog, because you are invoking the SlowKeys gesture. Period. If you don't like that you can turn off the keyboard shortcuts, i.e. make it so that holding the shift key down doesn't turn on SlowKeys; however you should not make that the default for new users. > I can see why GOK behaves as it does. My opinion though is that it is > not acceptable, another method must be found to solve the issue. We'll be able to help you better if you are a little more open to our suggestions. Bill > Bill Haneman said: > > >Bear in mind that ANY onscreen keyboard that uses the mouse will fail to > >work properly when used to pop up menus, etc. via keyboard navigation, > >because of system toolkit pointer grabs. Are you aware of that fact? > >It will strike your onscreen keyboard as well. This is the reason for > >GOK's somewhat brittle configuration requirements, and the reason you > >are warned not to use GOK via the system core pointer. > > I find this difficult to understand, surely pop up menus are a pointer > operation to begin with, and that it is possible to emulate this with > a physical keyboard. I fail to see the point of emulating this > emulation with a pointer. Except if one was using a pointer to > emulate a scanning device. Perhaps it would make more sense to > disconnect the core pointer when GOK enters it's scanning mode? > > Maybe it is just impossible to design a one-size fits all onscreen > keyboard. As evidenced by GOK, the result is a keyboard that is > accessible to everyone but usable by no-one. > > > On 27/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 01:42, Peter Korn wrote: > > > Hi Chris, > > > > > > One more thing. You write: > > > > > > > Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > > > > dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > > > > unacceptable. > > > > > > Have you filed an RFE on this issue (seeking a way to invoke the > > > system-wide Sticky-Keys functionality programatically without the user > > > dialog box), > > > > This is trivial to do. If you modify the key via gconf API, either by > > linking to gconf or just spawning a gconftool-2 command line, then you > > can change these settings without triggering the warning dialogs. If > > this has somehow regressed (it has worked on every system I know of, for > > several years), then a bug needs to be filed. > > > > Billy > > > > > or are you simply trying to "work around it"? I would hope > > > that part of a SoC project is to at least file bugs/RFEs for things you > > > want, even if you "work around them" for the purposes of meeting a > > > project deadline. I would hope that filing bugs/RFEs is part of the > > > purview of SoC projects. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > Peter Korn > > > Accessibility Architect, > > > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > > > > > > Hi Chris, > > > > > > > > I think there are two issues here. Well, three: > > > > > > > > 1. Can an on-screen keyboard implement "sticky" modifiers without using > > > > the system support for sticky modifiers? > > > > 2. Can an on-screen keyboard circumvent/disable the system support for > > > > sticky modifiers (and slow keys, and...)? > > > > 3. Is the right way to "fix" what is "broken" in GOK doing another > > > > project rather than working with the existing GOK code to "fix" those > > > > "broken" things? > > > > > > > > I suggest that #3 may be somewhat religious at this point; I'm > > > > personally saddened that we aren't at least looking seriously at GOK > > > > improvements, but fundamentally a goal of UNIX accessibility is to > > > > foster the development of a rich accessibility ecosystem - and a rich > > > > ecosystem has room for multiple approaches to similar problems (cf. Orca > > > > and Gnopernicus and LSR). > > > > > > > > I have no issues with #1 - I see no reason why an on-screen keyboard > > > > cannot have its own way of making certain modifiers sticky on its own > > > > user interface *without* doing so through the system-wide setting > > > > mechanisms. Such a decision is I think a valid user-interface policy > > > > decision of an individual application. > > > > > > > > However, it is a direct Section 508 violation for an application to > > > > override or ignore system-wide accessibility settings. It is even more > > > > egregious for an application that claims to be at least in part for > > > > people with disabilities (and thus an 'enlightened' application) to do so. > > > > > > > > > > > > So, my suggestion is that if you simply cannot possible use the > > > > system-settings for sticky keys as part of your own UI, that you make > > > > things sticky your own way; however that if the system-wide settings are > > > > on that you use and respect those (complete with the dialog box that you > > > > seem to dislike). > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Peter Korn > > > > Accessibility Architect, > > > > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > > > > > > > > > > >> But this very same thing makes it very awkward who want sticky keys on > > > >> the keyboard and non-sticky on a physical. Which would be true for > > > >> all non-a11y users and some a11y users. > > > >> > > > >> In the end though the only manner it interferes with my keyboard is > > > >> the annoying dialogue that pops up, and the average gnome-ally user > > > >> will probably be plenty used to seeing annoying dialogs anyway. > > > >> > > > >> The slow keys dialogue however is another matter though. Normal > > > >> operations are not resumed until it is dismissed. Which in itself > > > >> incredibly annoying. > > > >> > > > >> When planning the SOK I wanted to stay away from the three odd dialogs > > > >> that GOK pops up when it is started. The plain fact is I don't want > > > >> any dialogs when starting SOK. At all. > > > >> > > > >> Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > > > >> dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > > > >> unacceptable. > > > >> > > > >> On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>> On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>> Chris Jones wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> ... > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > > > >>>>> for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > > > >>>>> SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > > > >>>>> fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> Chris, > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the > > > >>>> state internally in SOK? IOW: > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. > > > >>> It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build > > > >>> an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use > > > >>> it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. > > > >>> > > > >>> If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key > > > >>> while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is > > > >>> inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a > > > >>> problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock > > > >>> status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you > > > >>> want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. > > > >>> > > > >>> google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's > > > >>> section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. > > > >>> > > > >>> regards > > > >>> > > > >>> Bill > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>> 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked > > > >>>> SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time > > > >>>> the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift > > > >>>> is clicked again you unset the flag. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an > > > >>>> 'accessibility violation'. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? > > > >>>> > > > >>>> - Henrik > > > >>>> > > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > > >>>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > >>>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > >>>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > -- > Chris Jones > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From gk4@austin.ibm.com Tue Jun 27 14:30:28 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A72123B00D3 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:30:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12403-01 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:30:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e4.ny.us.ibm.com (e4.ny.us.ibm.com [32.97.182.144]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31DEC3B0110 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:30:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (d01relay04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.236]) by e4.ny.us.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5RITbHn001642 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:29:38 -0400 Received: from d01av02.pok.ibm.com (d01av02.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.216]) by d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (8.13.6/NCO/VER7.0) with ESMTP id k5RITbTm271228 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:29:37 -0400 Received: from d01av02.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av02.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k5RITbbJ011163 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:29:37 -0400 Received: from gk4.austin.ibm.com (gk4.austin.ibm.com [9.53.33.16]) by d01av02.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5RITaQf011141; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:29:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech From: George Kraft To: Hynek Hanke In-Reply-To: <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: IBM Corp Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:26:33 -0500 Message-Id: <1151432793.6050.13.camel@gk4.austin.ibm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 (2.0.2-3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.49 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.109, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.49 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: gk4@austin.ibm.com List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 18:30:28 -0000 On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 17:04 +0200, Hynek Hanke wrote: > talking to it via TCP. Are commercial TTS engines sufficiently isolated in this new TTS API proposal? With respect to licensing, can DECtalk and TTSynth be successfully linked to and be used? gnome-speech is providing a nice abstraction. -- George (gk4) From hanke@brailcom.org Tue Jun 27 15:58:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22F743B00A6 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:58:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15469-10 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:58:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp-out3.iol.cz (smtp-out3.iol.cz [194.228.2.91]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 862C93B009F for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:58:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from antivir3.iol.cz (avir3 [192.168.30.206]) by smtp-out3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8F53682A3; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:35:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (antivir3.iol.cz [127.0.0.1]) by antivir3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB58E42000A; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:35:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp-out3.iol.cz (smtp-out-3.iplanet.iol.cz [192.168.30.28]) by antivir3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 909D1420006; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:35:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.36] (77.93.broadband2.iol.cz [83.208.93.77]) by smtp-out3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A9583BEE5; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:35:53 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech From: Hynek Hanke To: gk4@austin.ibm.com In-Reply-To: <1151432793.6050.13.camel@gk4.austin.ibm.com> References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> <1151432793.6050.13.camel@gk4.austin.ibm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:34:24 +0200 Message-Id: <1151436865.3550.6.camel@chopin> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at iol.cz X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.464 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.464 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gap X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:58:48 -0000 George Kraft píše v Út 27. 06. 2006 v 13:26 -0500: > On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 17:04 +0200, Hynek Hanke wrote: > > talking to it via TCP. > Are commercial TTS engines sufficiently isolated in this new TTS API > proposal? With respect to licensing, can DECtalk and TTSynth be > successfully linked to and be used? I'm not sure what is the question exactly? The modules inside the TTS API implementation we are working on are supposed to run as separate processes for licensing reason and for the reason of stability. This however has little to do with the way how interfacing between the module and the synthesizer is done. Also, the paragraph of which you quote a part of a sentence had nothing to do with TTS API nor with DECtalk or TTSynth in my previous post. > gnome-speech is providing a nice abstraction. I'm sorry, I do not understand. Could you please explain? With regards, Hynek Hanke From gk4@austin.ibm.com Tue Jun 27 17:35:38 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE7F43B00D3 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:35:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18161-03 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:35:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e5.ny.us.ibm.com (e5.ny.us.ibm.com [32.97.182.145]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4C563B009D for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:35:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (d01relay02.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.234]) by e5.ny.us.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5RLY8rN016556 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:34:08 -0400 Received: from d01av02.pok.ibm.com (d01av02.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.216]) by d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (8.13.6/NCO/VER7.0) with ESMTP id k5RLXJwK261560 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:33:19 -0400 Received: from d01av02.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av02.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k5RLXIPG001437 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:33:19 -0400 Received: from gk4.austin.ibm.com (gk4.austin.ibm.com [9.53.33.16]) by d01av02.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5RLXIUu001410; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:33:18 -0400 Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech From: George Kraft To: Hynek Hanke In-Reply-To: <1151436865.3550.6.camel@chopin> References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> <1151432793.6050.13.camel@gk4.austin.ibm.com> <1151436865.3550.6.camel@chopin> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: IBM Corp Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:30:14 -0500 Message-Id: <1151443815.6050.42.camel@gk4.austin.ibm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 (2.0.2-3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.499 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.499 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: gk4@austin.ibm.com List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:35:39 -0000 On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 21:34 +0200, Hynek Hanke wrote: > The modules inside the TTS > API implementation we are working on are supposed to run as separate > processes for licensing reason and for the reason of stability. You answered my malformed question. :-) Thanks. George (gk4) From enrico@enricozini.org Tue Jun 27 19:24:26 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD1B13B002A for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:24:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20951-10 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:24:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agnus.ngi.it (agnus.ngi.it [88.149.128.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B51343B006D for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:24:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (81-174-12-206.f5.ngi.it [81.174.12.206]) by agnus.ngi.it (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5RMH2rG021881 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 00:17:03 +0200 Received: from enrico by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FvL1W-0006Xm-74 for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 22:23:06 +0100 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 22:23:06 +0100 From: Enrico Zini To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech Message-ID: <20060627212306.GA24644@viaza> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ibTvN161/egqYuK8" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060403 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.68 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.774, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.558] X-Spam-Score: -1.68 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 23:24:27 -0000 --ibTvN161/egqYuK8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jun 27, 2006 at 05:04:37PM +0200, Hynek Hanke wrote: > * Enrico suggested we should use Festival C API instead of talking > to it via TCP. Also Olivier mentioned the whole chain to be too long and > source of troubles. However, I suspect the problem is not in the chain > being too long as much as in both Festival and Gnome Speech lacking > proper detailed logs. The problem that I've found in the Festival C API is that you cannot have reliable is_speaking testing / end-of-speech notification. Details: Festival can run in two modes: (audio_mode 'sync) or (audio_mode 'async). In sync mode, a (SayText "...") command would block the entire festival engine until the phrase has been fully spoken. That rules out being able to interrupt the speaking, so we don't want it. In async mode, festival runs an audio spooler called audsp as external process, then does the TTS converting text into waveforms, saves the waveforms in a file under /tmp [shivers] and tells audsp to play that file. audsp keeps listening to the pipe while playing, and supports commands like "wait until everything has been spoken" or "interrupt speaking and reset the queue". The communication protocol between festival and audsp is basically one-way, and there's currently no way for audsp to push info back to festival. This makes it impossible to notify that a wave has finished playing. There is also currently no way to ask if audsp is currently playing something or not. Festival is free software, so this is of course fixable. Having looked at the code, it's simple code and it wouldn't break if it'd be stretched a bit. But that's not improving a driver: that's improving festival (if the authors allow) and then having to depend on a very new version of it. So the proper way to implement a festival driver seems to me to use the text-to-wave function and then do a proper handling of playing the resulting wave, hopefully using the audio playing technology that's trendy at the moment. I looked into esd without understanding if it is trendy anymore, and I look at gstreamer without understanding if it isn't a bit too complicated as a default way to play a waveform. Also, not using audsp means that the festival driver wouldn't add another spawned process to keep track of. I don't know much about the APIs of other speech engines. If they all had a text-to-wave function, then it can be a wise move to implement a proper audio scheduler to share among TTS drivers, which could then (reliably) support proper integration with the audio system of the day, progress report, interruption and whatever else is needed. This would ensure that all TTS drivers would have the same (hopefully high) level of reliability wrt audio output. > Also, we have found the connection randomly crashes for no apparent > reason. It is indeed far better if we can just detect it, log it and > create a new connection and reset the parameters automatically (as we do > now) than if such a crash would bring down the whole module (if we were > using the C API) for no clear reason. (Another one: in the current > version of Dispatcher, sometimes a very mysterious segfault happens. > I suspect this has something to do with ALSA, but it is very hard to > tell as we link ALSA directly and the crash is not reproducible in > testing circumstances...) >=20 > Now, one of the big problems is that Festival doesn't offer proper logs. > It would often refuse connection for a stupid typo in the configuration > file and not give any clue to the user. This is something which should > be fixed. This can probably be fixed: festival can be told not to load any config file, and log can be implemented adding a couple of printfs before calls to the C++ API. And something like a TTS driver which becomes the main form of access to the computer should be designed to properly restart in case of segfaults in its own code, be it festival or whatever else. Ciao, Enrico --=20 GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini --ibTvN161/egqYuK8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEoaG59LSwzHl+v6sRAiE4AJ9EA6pT/x65pG8GVK8MHP1PWNaINQCeJOOO Xl+8CXjxfFSxfqqnM1uKRAs= =lEOy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ibTvN161/egqYuK8-- From enrico@enricozini.org Wed Jun 28 09:59:16 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A74633B017A; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:59:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14201-04; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:59:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agnus.ngi.it (agnus.ngi.it [88.149.128.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAA8D3B01E2; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:59:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (81-174-12-206.f5.ngi.it [81.174.12.206]) by agnus.ngi.it (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5SDwIwD028281; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:58:18 +0200 Received: from enrico by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FvaXC-000293-Dz; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:56:50 +0100 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:56:50 +0100 From: Enrico Zini To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Probably found the problem with the Italian synthesis Message-ID: <20060628135650.GA6628@viaza> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060403 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.017, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:59:16 -0000 --fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, might be around here: $ echo "Evviva il Per=C3=BA" | festival --tts --language english $ echo "Evviva il Per=C3=BA" | festival --tts --language finnish SIOD ERROR: damaged env : # $ echo "Evviva il Per=C3=BA" | festival --tts --language spanish $ echo "Evviva il Per=C3=BA" | festival --tts --language italian LTS_Ruleset italian_downcase: no rule matches: LTS_Ruleset: # P e r *here* =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD # $ =2E..especially when this comes out of the log of a crashed orca session: # grep SPEECH debug.out |tail SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Grafica menu' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Up' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Giochi menu' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Up' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Audio & Video menu' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Up' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Accessori menu' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Right' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Alacarte - Editor di men=C3=B9' I'll now try to work on it a bit. In the meantime, I patched audsp in festival to also report the currently playing sample in the playing list. This makes two useful patches that I should start to extract properly and send around, but my main priority is still having a long-lasting Italian speech experience. Ciao, Enrico --=20 GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini --fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEooqi9LSwzHl+v6sRAqtrAJ9y2yxCiWlh3jbH/nxrzqMVyCh9MACghPal qzCsGZJ+BpKwEwJ3zDeEXi8= =FyyJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N-- From hanke@brailcom.org Wed Jun 28 11:14:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B62293B01DE for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 11:14:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17406-01 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 11:14:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp-out3.iol.cz (smtp-out3.iol.cz [194.228.2.91]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E9BC3B0167 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 11:14:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from antivir3.iol.cz (avir3 [192.168.30.206]) by smtp-out3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C22AE81B0; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:12:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (antivir3.iol.cz [127.0.0.1]) by antivir3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E6AA42000C; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:12:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp-out3.iol.cz (smtp-out-3.iplanet.iol.cz [192.168.30.28]) by antivir3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E741420006; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:12:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.36] (77.93.broadband2.iol.cz [83.208.93.77]) by smtp-out3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0EA93BEDB; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:12:27 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech From: Hynek Hanke To: Enrico Zini In-Reply-To: <20060627212306.GA24644@viaza> References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> <20060627212306.GA24644@viaza> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:11:01 +0200 Message-Id: <1151507461.3478.51.camel@chopin> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at iol.cz X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.445 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.445 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:14:13 -0000 > Festival is free software, so this is of course fixable. Having looked > at the code, it's simple code and it wouldn't break if it'd be stretched > a bit. But that's not improving a driver: that's improving festival (if > the authors allow) and then having to depend on a very new version of > it. Hi Enrico, also the problem with speech engines doing their own audio output (apart from what you said about Festival) is that this audio output needs to be configured at several places if several engines are used, many places where code needs to be updated if a new audio technology comes etc. > [...] > So the proper way to implement a festival driver seems to me to use the > text-to-wave function and then do a proper handling of playing the > resulting wave, hopefully using the audio playing technology that's > trendy at the moment. Yes, I agree. Actually this is what both Speech Dispatcher and KTTSD are doing and I think I've heard Gnome Speech would also like to go this way in the future. > I looked into esd without understanding if it is > trendy anymore, and I look at gstreamer without understanding if it > isn't a bit too complicated as a default way to play a waveform. This is fairly complicated. I've investigated into possibilities for audio output and I've ended up sumarizing our requirements if such a technology should eventually come in the future and writing my own small library for output to OSS, Alsa and NAS. Please see http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/accessibility/2005-April/000049.html and feel free to have comments. One of the problems is the latency we need. That ruled out both ESD and Gstreamer at that time, I'm not sure what is the state now with Gstreamer. Another thing is that if we are aiming for a desktop independent speech technology, we need desktop independent audio output. > I don't know much about the APIs of other speech engines. If they all > had a text-to-wave function Most of the engines do. Some don't, but this is their drawback (what if I want to have the audio synthesized and save to a file?). As you said, it is very desirable to retrieve the audio for those engines that support it. > , then it can be a wise move to implement a > proper audio scheduler to share among TTS drivers, which could then > (reliably) support proper integration with the audio system of the day, > progress report, interruption and whatever else is needed. This would > ensure that all TTS drivers would have the same (hopefully high) level > of reliability wrt audio output. Yes, that is mine dream too! Would you be wiling to help with this? I think we would first have to see what is new and consider the options again. > > Now, one of the big problems is that Festival doesn't offer proper logs. > > It would often refuse connection for a stupid typo in the configuration > > file and not give any clue to the user. This is something which should > > be fixed. > This can probably be fixed: festival can be told not to load any config > file This is not really useful. Configuration is really needed. > , and log can be implemented adding a couple of printfs before calls > to the C++ API. That is the log from the side of the speech api provider (Gnome Speech etc.). This already exists in Dispatcher and as I said is automatic from a TCP API. I was talking about logs on the side of Festival. You will never be able to discover why a particular voice was not loaded/doesn't work, why a sound icon is not playing, what is the typo in your configuration files, why is it not finding a module (wrong path) and such from just talking to Festival via its API (be it C++ or TCP). Currently the only way for the users to fix such problems is to run Festival from command line and hope it will write some cryptic message to stderr. Then what is left are guesses, past experiences with problems and black magic. We must be able to diagnose problems. >> [from my earlier post] >> Now, one of the big problems is that Festival doesn't offer proper >> logs. You say you find the Festival C code clear and modifications not difficult. If this could be fixed, that would be superb. I don't think Alan would object to include the patch. And it would not introduce a dependency for us. I don't know however how soon it could get into some official release. But I think it is worth looking into. > And something like a TTS driver which becomes the main > form of access to the computer should be designed to properly restart in > case of segfaults in its own code, be it festival or whatever else. Yes, this is something we tried in Speech Dispatcher, but it doesn't always work. We should get this part right in TTS API. The objection that with the TCP API it is easier to see what part is crashing, after which commands exactly, however remains. With regards, Hynek Hanke From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Wed Jun 28 12:35:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8EC53B03F3 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:35:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21095-10 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:35:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 425753B02C2 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:35:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5SGZSpR001661 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 10:35:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1K00M01WMQ6S@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:35:28 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-9.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.9]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1K00D5UWR30M@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:35:28 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:36:40 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech In-reply-to: <1151507461.3478.51.camel@chopin> To: Hynek Hanke Message-id: <1151512600.7045.91.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> <20060627212306.GA24644@viaza> <1151507461.3478.51.camel@chopin> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Enrico Zini , gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:35:51 -0000 Hi Hynek, All: I'm not sure I agree that speech engines should not do their own audio output. While I think you have identified some real problems with that approach, it's not clear that the ".wav file" approach has a low enough latency. If tests show that latency is not a problem, then passing the synthesized audio bits to the driver for processing (perhaps via multiplexing/mixing in most situations, or for pre-emptive audio in others) does seem to have advantages. Hynek, I think you've also identified a good reason for one of the "many layers" in our architecture... we don't really want a bug in the speech engine to crash our TTS service. Using a C API, even when licenses permit, usually means sharing process space with the driver, and for many drivers the code is closed-source, making diagnosis and recovery very difficult indeed. In such a situation we probably need to implement the process-space separation in our own TTS architecture, so that we can restart the engine when things go badly wrong. regards Bill On Wed, 2006-06-28 at 16:11, Hynek Hanke wrote: > > Festival is free software, so this is of course fixable. Having looked > > at the code, it's simple code and it wouldn't break if it'd be stretched > > a bit. But that's not improving a driver: that's improving festival (if > > the authors allow) and then having to depend on a very new version of > > it. > > Hi Enrico, > > also the problem with speech engines doing their own audio output > (apart from what you said about Festival) is that this audio output > needs to be configured at several places if several engines are used, > many places where code needs to be updated if a new audio technology > comes etc. > > > [...] > > So the proper way to implement a festival driver seems to me to use the > > text-to-wave function and then do a proper handling of playing the > > resulting wave, hopefully using the audio playing technology that's > > trendy at the moment. > > Yes, I agree. Actually this is what both Speech Dispatcher and KTTSD are > doing and I think I've heard Gnome Speech would also like to go this way > in the future. > > > I looked into esd without understanding if it is > > trendy anymore, and I look at gstreamer without understanding if it > > isn't a bit too complicated as a default way to play a waveform. > > This is fairly complicated. I've investigated into possibilities for > audio output and I've ended up sumarizing our requirements if such a > technology should eventually come in the future and writing my own > small library for output to OSS, Alsa and NAS. Please see > http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/accessibility/2005-April/000049.html > and feel free to have comments. One of the problems is the latency we > need. That ruled out both ESD and Gstreamer at that time, I'm not sure > what is the state now with Gstreamer. Another thing is that if we are > aiming for a desktop independent speech technology, we need desktop > independent audio output. > > > I don't know much about the APIs of other speech engines. If they all > > had a text-to-wave function > > Most of the engines do. Some don't, but this is their drawback (what if > I want to have the audio synthesized and save to a file?). As you said, > it is very desirable to retrieve the audio for those engines that > support it. > > > , then it can be a wise move to implement a > > proper audio scheduler to share among TTS drivers, which could then > > (reliably) support proper integration with the audio system of the day, > > progress report, interruption and whatever else is needed. This would > > ensure that all TTS drivers would have the same (hopefully high) level > > of reliability wrt audio output. > > Yes, that is mine dream too! Would you be wiling to help with this? > I think we would first have to see what is new and consider the options > again. > > > > Now, one of the big problems is that Festival doesn't offer proper logs. > > > It would often refuse connection for a stupid typo in the configuration > > > file and not give any clue to the user. This is something which should > > > be fixed. > > This can probably be fixed: festival can be told not to load any config > > file > > This is not really useful. Configuration is really needed. > > > , and log can be implemented adding a couple of printfs before calls > > to the C++ API. > > That is the log from the side of the speech api provider (Gnome Speech > etc.). This already exists in Dispatcher and as I said is automatic from > a TCP API. I was talking about logs on the side of Festival. > > You will never be able to discover why a particular voice was not > loaded/doesn't work, why a sound icon is not playing, what is the typo > in your configuration files, why is it not finding a module (wrong path) > and such from just talking to Festival via its API (be it C++ or TCP). > > Currently the only way for the users to fix such problems is to run > Festival from command line and hope it will write some cryptic message > to stderr. Then what is left are guesses, past experiences with problems > and black magic. We must be able to diagnose problems. > > >> [from my earlier post] > >> Now, one of the big problems is that Festival doesn't offer proper > >> logs. > > You say you find the Festival C code clear and modifications not > difficult. If this could be fixed, that would be superb. I don't think > Alan would object to include the patch. And it would not introduce > a dependency for us. I don't know however how soon it could get > into some official release. But I think it is worth looking into. > > > And something like a TTS driver which becomes the main > > form of access to the computer should be designed to properly restart in > > case of segfaults in its own code, be it festival or whatever else. > > Yes, this is something we tried in Speech Dispatcher, but it doesn't > always work. We should get this part right in TTS API. The objection > that with the TCP API it is easier to see what part is crashing, after > which commands exactly, however remains. > > With regards, > Hynek Hanke > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Wed Jun 28 16:08:59 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B8E03B031A for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:08:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31786-04 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:08:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3FDC3B0511 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:08:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-05.sun.com ([192.18.39.115]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5SK8WXs001460 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-05.sun.com by d1-sfbay-05.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J1L006016EG9200@d1-sfbay-05.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.23.60] by d1-sfbay-05.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J1L00BY16M73330@d1-sfbay-05.sun.com>; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:08:29 -0700 From: Peter Korn Subject: Audio recordings from the CSUN Orca & Open Document Format Accessibility sessions now available Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: Gnome accessibility , FSG Accessibility , kde-accessibility@kde.org, accessibility@freedesktop.org, brltty@mielke.cc Message-id: <44A2E1BD.9010803@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.546 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.052, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.546 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:08:59 -0000 Greetings, After a bit of a delay, audio recordings of the two Orca sessions and the ODF Accessibility Panel are now available, for your listening pleasure. We have them up in Ogg Vorbis format (of course). Please see http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/korn/20060628 for details, links, etc. Thanks to Mike Paciello for securing copies of these recordings. Note: you can also view the video directly, through the TV Worldwide website (assuming you have a Windows system to do so...). Regards, Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Wed Jun 28 17:43:05 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 657283B00A3 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:43:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03179-02 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:43:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.207]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D9E03B00AE for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:43:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id n29so631932nzf for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.97.8 with SMTP id u8mr1894344nzb; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.73.15 with HTTP; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:43:03 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: docked window mode in GOk and SOK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.492 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.092, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.492 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:43:05 -0000 SOK is simple onscreen keyboard I am writing to compliment GOK. It is a summer of code project. I've been trying to implement a dock window mode for SOK like that which GOK has. Unfortunately my effort was met with a plethora of problems. Support for such docked windows is unpredictable under dual screens and can cause windows to get stuck or disappear etc. There's not much I can do about this but file bug reports. Attaching GOK or SOK to an edge which has a panel attached results in a focus "war" betwixt the two. I'm planning to work round this by reading the gconf keys for the panel and adjusting the placement of SOK accordingly. Does GOK have a solution in the pipeline? Can anyone think of a better way to go about this? -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Wed Jun 28 20:09:24 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 411C33B0139 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:09:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09072-04 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:09:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Sun.COM [192.18.98.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A1DD3B016E for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:09:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5T08v08022628 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 18:08:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1L00H01HBGZ1@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 01:08:57 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-116-57.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.116.57]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1L00BEBHQXD3@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 01:08:57 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 01:10:10 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: docked window mode in GOk and SOK In-reply-to: To: Chris Jones Message-id: <1151539810.7061.18.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.58 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.58 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 00:09:24 -0000 Hi Chris: There's no good solution to the "share a dock area" problem. We recommend that you don't use both top and bottom panels when running an onscreen keyboard, for this reason. The straightforward solution is to remove either the top or bottom panel, and then use that edge to dock your keyboard. Otherwise you could waste^^H^H^spend a lot of time trying to work around this. I don't believe there's any way to put multiple docks on one edge reliably unless those docks share code (this is how gnome-panel manages this), or some new IPC is invented whereby the docks can share info (and then you have to convince all the users of _NET_WM_STRUT to implement that IPC - good luck!). The existing X API for struts just doesn't accommodate this scenario. regards, Bill On Wed, 2006-06-28 at 22:43, Chris Jones wrote: > SOK is simple onscreen keyboard I am writing to compliment GOK. It is > a summer of code project. > > > I've been trying to implement a dock window mode for SOK like that > which GOK has. > > Unfortunately my effort was met with a plethora of problems. > > Support for such docked windows is unpredictable under dual screens > and can cause windows to get stuck or disappear etc. There's not much > I can do about this but file bug reports. > > Attaching GOK or SOK to an edge which has a panel attached results in > a focus "war" betwixt the two. I'm planning to work round this by > reading the gconf keys for the panel and adjusting the placement of > SOK accordingly. Does GOK have a solution in the pipeline? Can > anyone think of a better way to go about this? > > -- > Chris Jones > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Thu Jun 29 07:02:44 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A80A83B0078 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:02:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05708-04 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:02:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.198]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98E903B010A for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:02:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 8so140092nzo for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 04:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.140.2 with SMTP id n2mr2793650nzd; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 04:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.73.15 with HTTP; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 04:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:02:42 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: docked window mode in GOk and SOK In-Reply-To: <1151539810.7061.18.camel@linux.site> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1151539810.7061.18.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.492 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.092, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.492 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 11:02:44 -0000 Well I think it is possible to detect if the panel is running through dbus, and it's location is stored in gconf. This should be easy to implement. I've already tested it by hardcoding an offset, all that remains to do is reading the gconf values. I don't quite understand this apathy. No other part of the desktop would put up with such an annoying bug. I don't see why it is acceptable here. On 29/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > Hi Chris: > > There's no good solution to the "share a dock area" problem. We > recommend that you don't use both top and bottom panels when running an > onscreen keyboard, for this reason. > > The straightforward solution is to remove either the top or bottom > panel, and then use that edge to dock your keyboard. Otherwise you > could waste^^H^H^spend a lot of time trying to work around this. > > I don't believe there's any way to put multiple docks on one edge > reliably unless those docks share code (this is how gnome-panel manages > this), or some new IPC is invented whereby the docks can share info (and > then you have to convince all the users of _NET_WM_STRUT to implement > that IPC - good luck!). The existing X API for struts just doesn't > accommodate this scenario. > > > regards, > > Bill > > On Wed, 2006-06-28 at 22:43, Chris Jones wrote: > > SOK is simple onscreen keyboard I am writing to compliment GOK. It is > > a summer of code project. > > > > > > I've been trying to implement a dock window mode for SOK like that > > which GOK has. > > > > Unfortunately my effort was met with a plethora of problems. > > > > Support for such docked windows is unpredictable under dual screens > > and can cause windows to get stuck or disappear etc. There's not much > > I can do about this but file bug reports. > > > > Attaching GOK or SOK to an edge which has a panel attached results in > > a focus "war" betwixt the two. I'm planning to work round this by > > reading the gconf keys for the panel and adjusting the placement of > > SOK accordingly. Does GOK have a solution in the pipeline? Can > > anyone think of a better way to go about this? > > > > -- > > Chris Jones > > > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Thu Jun 29 07:12:22 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 269443B0196 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:12:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06178-06 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:12:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A3A83B0078 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:12:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5TBCIZo017365 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 05:12:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1M00701C9XWA@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:12:18 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-116-82.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.116.82]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1M008FPCGHN4@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:12:17 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:13:31 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: docked window mode in GOk and SOK In-reply-to: To: Chris Jones Message-id: <1151579611.7091.17.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151539810.7061.18.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.58 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.58 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 11:12:22 -0000 Reading the gconf values isn't a fully robust solution, since the panel is not the only thing that might use _NET_WM_STRUTS. It's not apathy, it just that fixing this the right way would require new WM API. Bill On Thu, 2006-06-29 at 12:02, Chris Jones wrote: > Well I think it is possible to detect if the panel is running through > dbus, and it's location is stored in gconf. This should be easy to > implement. I've already tested it by hardcoding an offset, all that > remains to do is reading the gconf values. > > I don't quite understand this apathy. No other part of the desktop > would put up with such an annoying bug. I don't see why it is > acceptable here. > > On 29/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > Hi Chris: > > > > There's no good solution to the "share a dock area" problem. We > > recommend that you don't use both top and bottom panels when running an > > onscreen keyboard, for this reason. > > > > The straightforward solution is to remove either the top or bottom > > panel, and then use that edge to dock your keyboard. Otherwise you > > could waste^^H^H^spend a lot of time trying to work around this. > > > > I don't believe there's any way to put multiple docks on one edge > > reliably unless those docks share code (this is how gnome-panel manages > > this), or some new IPC is invented whereby the docks can share info (and > > then you have to convince all the users of _NET_WM_STRUT to implement > > that IPC - good luck!). The existing X API for struts just doesn't > > accommodate this scenario. > > > > > > regards, > > > > Bill > > > > On Wed, 2006-06-28 at 22:43, Chris Jones wrote: > > > SOK is simple onscreen keyboard I am writing to compliment GOK. It is > > > a summer of code project. > > > > > > > > > I've been trying to implement a dock window mode for SOK like that > > > which GOK has. > > > > > > Unfortunately my effort was met with a plethora of problems. > > > > > > Support for such docked windows is unpredictable under dual screens > > > and can cause windows to get stuck or disappear etc. There's not much > > > I can do about this but file bug reports. > > > > > > Attaching GOK or SOK to an edge which has a panel attached results in > > > a focus "war" betwixt the two. I'm planning to work round this by > > > reading the gconf keys for the panel and adjusting the placement of > > > SOK accordingly. Does GOK have a solution in the pipeline? Can > > > anyone think of a better way to go about this? > > > > > > -- > > > Chris Jones > > > > > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > > > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > -- > Chris Jones > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Thu Jun 29 08:47:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CF183B0275 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:47:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12023-08 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:47:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.205]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F3013B00CB for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:47:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id s1so116679nze for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 05:47:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.77.2 with SMTP id z2mr2949809nza; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 05:47:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.73.15 with HTTP; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 05:47:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 13:47:46 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: docked window mode in GOk and SOK In-Reply-To: <1151579611.7091.17.camel@linux.site> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1151539810.7061.18.camel@linux.site> <1151579611.7091.17.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.491 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.091, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.491 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:47:48 -0000 Agreed but it will do for now. Are there any plans for a new WM API. I don't think we can just leave this. On 29/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > Reading the gconf values isn't a fully robust solution, since the panel > is not the only thing that might use _NET_WM_STRUTS. > > It's not apathy, it just that fixing this the right way would require > new WM API. > > Bill > > On Thu, 2006-06-29 at 12:02, Chris Jones wrote: > > Well I think it is possible to detect if the panel is running through > > dbus, and it's location is stored in gconf. This should be easy to > > implement. I've already tested it by hardcoding an offset, all that > > remains to do is reading the gconf values. > > > > I don't quite understand this apathy. No other part of the desktop > > would put up with such an annoying bug. I don't see why it is > > acceptable here. > > > > On 29/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > > Hi Chris: > > > > > > There's no good solution to the "share a dock area" problem. We > > > recommend that you don't use both top and bottom panels when running an > > > onscreen keyboard, for this reason. > > > > > > The straightforward solution is to remove either the top or bottom > > > panel, and then use that edge to dock your keyboard. Otherwise you > > > could waste^^H^H^spend a lot of time trying to work around this. > > > > > > I don't believe there's any way to put multiple docks on one edge > > > reliably unless those docks share code (this is how gnome-panel manages > > > this), or some new IPC is invented whereby the docks can share info (and > > > then you have to convince all the users of _NET_WM_STRUT to implement > > > that IPC - good luck!). The existing X API for struts just doesn't > > > accommodate this scenario. > > > > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > On Wed, 2006-06-28 at 22:43, Chris Jones wrote: > > > > SOK is simple onscreen keyboard I am writing to compliment GOK. It is > > > > a summer of code project. > > > > > > > > > > > > I've been trying to implement a dock window mode for SOK like that > > > > which GOK has. > > > > > > > > Unfortunately my effort was met with a plethora of problems. > > > > > > > > Support for such docked windows is unpredictable under dual screens > > > > and can cause windows to get stuck or disappear etc. There's not much > > > > I can do about this but file bug reports. > > > > > > > > Attaching GOK or SOK to an edge which has a panel attached results in > > > > a focus "war" betwixt the two. I'm planning to work round this by > > > > reading the gconf keys for the panel and adjusting the placement of > > > > SOK accordingly. Does GOK have a solution in the pipeline? Can > > > > anyone think of a better way to go about this? > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Chris Jones > > > > > > > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > > > > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Chris Jones > > > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Thu Jun 29 08:59:04 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DD563B0078 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:59:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12865-06 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:59:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 178A23B011B for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:59:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5TCwk4T017434 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 06:59:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1M00901HD4HI@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 13:58:54 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-173.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.173]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1M0082MHE5N4@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 13:58:53 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 14:00:07 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: docked window mode in GOk and SOK In-reply-to: To: Chris Jones Message-id: <1151586006.14116.6.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151539810.7061.18.camel@linux.site> <1151579611.7091.17.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.58 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.58 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:59:04 -0000 On Thu, 2006-06-29 at 13:47, Chris Jones wrote: > Agreed but it will do for now. > > Are there any plans for a new WM API. I don't think we can just leave this. The wm-spec-list@gnome.org is the place to take the discussion. Good luck convincing folks of the value of multiple docks on the same edge of the screen, though... seems like a usability misfeature. At least where GOK was concerned it seemed preferable to reduce the number of panels. The second panel in Gnome doesn't add much functionality that couldn't be achieved by just combining the two panels. Of course you can also work around this by putting both Gnome panels on the same edge of the screen, which arguably would result in better usability anyhow. I think there is value in having the onscreen keyboard sit "on its own", having it share the edge with a panel means it's harder for the user to quickly scan for the desired characters. Bill > On 29/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > Reading the gconf values isn't a fully robust solution, since the panel > > is not the only thing that might use _NET_WM_STRUTS. > > > > It's not apathy, it just that fixing this the right way would require > > new WM API. > > > > Bill > > > > On Thu, 2006-06-29 at 12:02, Chris Jones wrote: > > > Well I think it is possible to detect if the panel is running through > > > dbus, and it's location is stored in gconf. This should be easy to > > > implement. I've already tested it by hardcoding an offset, all that > > > remains to do is reading the gconf values. > > > > > > I don't quite understand this apathy. No other part of the desktop > > > would put up with such an annoying bug. I don't see why it is > > > acceptable here. > > > > > > On 29/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > > > Hi Chris: > > > > > > > > There's no good solution to the "share a dock area" problem. We > > > > recommend that you don't use both top and bottom panels when running an > > > > onscreen keyboard, for this reason. > > > > > > > > The straightforward solution is to remove either the top or bottom > > > > panel, and then use that edge to dock your keyboard. Otherwise you > > > > could waste^^H^H^spend a lot of time trying to work around this. > > > > > > > > I don't believe there's any way to put multiple docks on one edge > > > > reliably unless those docks share code (this is how gnome-panel manages > > > > this), or some new IPC is invented whereby the docks can share info (and > > > > then you have to convince all the users of _NET_WM_STRUT to implement > > > > that IPC - good luck!). The existing X API for struts just doesn't > > > > accommodate this scenario. > > > > > > > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > On Wed, 2006-06-28 at 22:43, Chris Jones wrote: > > > > > SOK is simple onscreen keyboard I am writing to compliment GOK. It is > > > > > a summer of code project. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've been trying to implement a dock window mode for SOK like that > > > > > which GOK has. > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately my effort was met with a plethora of problems. > > > > > > > > > > Support for such docked windows is unpredictable under dual screens > > > > > and can cause windows to get stuck or disappear etc. There's not much > > > > > I can do about this but file bug reports. > > > > > > > > > > Attaching GOK or SOK to an edge which has a panel attached results in > > > > > a focus "war" betwixt the two. I'm planning to work round this by > > > > > reading the gconf keys for the panel and adjusting the placement of > > > > > SOK accordingly. Does GOK have a solution in the pipeline? Can > > > > > anyone think of a better way to go about this? > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Chris Jones > > > > > > > > > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > > > > > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Chris Jones > > > > > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > > > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > -- > Chris Jones > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From tward1978@earthlink.net Fri Jun 30 04:35:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B18513B0071 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 04:35:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04966-08 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 04:35:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-gadwall.atl.sa.earthlink.net (pop-gadwall.atl.sa.earthlink.net [207.69.195.61]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 068553B007D for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 04:35:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dialup-4.224.186.152.dial1.cincinnati1.level3.net ([4.224.186.152]) by pop-gadwall.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1FwETF-0000dB-00 for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 04:35:26 -0400 Message-ID: <44A4E251.8000207@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 04:35:29 -0400 From: Thomas Ward User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Gnome and Ubuntu 6.06? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.464 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.479, BAYES_40=-0.185, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2] X-Spam-Score: -0.464 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:35:27 -0000 Hi, list. This might seam like a really stupid question, but I have been hearing allot about Ubuntu Linux which I'd like to try, and don't have a fricking clue on how to get it up and working. I have spent hours reading the Ubuntu sight and can't even find a basic install guide for it. So here is the question. What do I need to get a basic Ubuntu system up and running with gnome 2.14 and gnopernicus or orca? While I am at it it might help to tell me what disk I need the desktop, server, or other disk image. I've already got the desktop disk and can't figure how to install it nor can I find the packages on the disk so I am all screwed up with this distribution. As I said I need someone to help me with the very very very basics of even stalling, setup, and telling me what is what. I know nothing about Ubuntu and they have like 0 setup and install guides that I can find. Any help? Thanks. From jasonw@ariel.its.unimelb.edu.au Fri Jun 30 05:29:35 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F07E63B007D for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 05:29:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07948-09 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 05:29:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net (smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net [203.16.214.181]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD72F3B0073 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 05:29:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jdc.local (ppp184-31.lns2.mel4.internode.on.net [59.167.184.31] (may be forged)) by smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5U9TVho038402 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 18:59:31 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from jasonw@ariel.its.unimelb.edu.au) Received: by jdc.local (Postfix, from userid 1000) id EA8B0781438C; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 19:29:30 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 19:29:30 +1000 From: Jason White To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Gnome and Ubuntu 6.06? Message-ID: <20060630092930.GA9048@jdc> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org References: <44A4E251.8000207@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <44A4E251.8000207@earthlink.net> User-Agent: mutt-ng/devel-r774 (Debian) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.436 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.029, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.436 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:29:35 -0000 Ubuntu is based on the Debian GNU/Linux distribution, and reputedly uses an installer based on Debian's. Thus you may find the Debian installation guide helpful for the basic operating system installation process. http://www.debian.org/ (look under "documentation"). I am sure Ubuntu users subscribed to this list will suggest how you can most easily set it up to run Gnopernicus, Orca or whatever you need. From bmustillrose@gmail.com Fri Jun 30 05:38:14 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17C253B0073 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 05:38:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08654-05 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 05:38:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.190]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59A4D3B007D for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 05:38:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id c29so246584nfb for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 02:38:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.48.235.13 with SMTP id i13mr143064nfh; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 02:38:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.48.42.3 with HTTP; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 02:38:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4285e65e0606300238s246e637dk54df4e1a449ab2c5@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 10:38:10 +0100 From: "ben mustill-rose" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Gnome and Ubuntu 6.06? In-Reply-To: <20060630092930.GA9048@jdc> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <44A4E251.8000207@earthlink.net> <20060630092930.GA9048@jdc> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.5 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:38:14 -0000 Hi. I am also new to ubuntu, and installed it some time ago with sighted assistanse. I downloaded the desktop 6.06 iso and berned it to a cd. You will need sighted help to install this and to install gnopernicus or orca. Once you have everything set up, click aplications, (alt f1) and click manage programs; (i don't think its called that, but its something like that). If you are connected to the internet, a list of programs that you can download will load, just find gnopernicus in there. Note that orca is not in this list, and that i have had PROBLEMS using gnopernicus along side ubuntu 6.06 and gnome. BEN. On 30/06/06, Jason White wrote: > Ubuntu is based on the Debian GNU/Linux distribution, and reputedly uses an > installer based on Debian's. Thus you may find the Debian installation guide > helpful for the basic operating system installation process. > http://www.debian.org/ (look under "documentation"). > > I am sure Ubuntu users subscribed to this list will suggest how you can most > easily set it up to run Gnopernicus, Orca or whatever you need. > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > From tward1978@earthlink.net Fri Jun 30 08:19:42 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AAEF3B01F6 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:19:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18008-10 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:19:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-canoe.atl.sa.earthlink.net (pop-canoe.atl.sa.earthlink.net [207.69.195.66]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A52D3B030B for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:19:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dialup-4.224.39.23.dial1.cincinnati1.level3.net ([4.224.39.23]) by pop-canoe.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1FwHyF-0000fY-00 for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:19:39 -0400 Message-ID: <44A516DF.9080107@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:19:43 -0400 From: Thomas Ward User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Gnome and Ubuntu 6.06? References: <44A4E251.8000207@earthlink.net> <20060630092930.GA9048@jdc> In-Reply-To: <20060630092930.GA9048@jdc> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.557 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.614, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.456] X-Spam-Score: -1.557 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 12:19:42 -0000 Hi, Jason. Thanks for the information. I just read through the Debian installation manual, and while it seams strait forward I don't think it reflects what I am seeing as far as Ubuntu 6.06 desktop version. Now, the manual did mention using a preconfiguration script which would allow one to do an autoinstall of Debian. I wonder if the same is true for Ubuntu, and how much different is the preconfiguration script etc from Debian in Ubuntu. As I am blind and don't have much help around an autoinstallation or a terminal install is esentual for me getting this thing on my system. So I will be doing this the hard way. Wish more distributions were like Fedora and allowed for autoinstalls, telnet installs, and terminal installs. My hope and desire is to run say an autoinstall have it get it on, reboot in to gnome, and fire up gnopernicus after login. Is that a reasonable expectation for Ubuntu or am I barking up the wrong tree. I can do this with Fedora but can't do this with most other distributions, but I am hoping Ubuntu will be able to do this as well. Jason White wrote: > Ubuntu is based on the Debian GNU/Linux distribution, and reputedly uses an > installer based on Debian's. Thus you may find the Debian installation guide > helpful for the basic operating system installation process. > http://www.debian.org/ (look under "documentation"). > > I am sure Ubuntu users subscribed to this list will suggest how you can most > easily set it up to run Gnopernicus, Orca or whatever you need. > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > From tward1978@earthlink.net Fri Jun 30 08:23:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5E603B033A for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:23:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18297-10 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:23:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-canoe.atl.sa.earthlink.net (pop-canoe.atl.sa.earthlink.net [207.69.195.66]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0E733B012D for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:23:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dialup-4.224.39.23.dial1.cincinnati1.level3.net ([4.224.39.23]) by pop-canoe.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1FwI1d-0001My-00; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:23:09 -0400 Message-ID: <44A517B1.5000802@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:23:13 -0400 From: Thomas Ward User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ben mustill-rose Subject: Re: Gnome and Ubuntu 6.06? References: <44A4E251.8000207@earthlink.net> <20060630092930.GA9048@jdc> <4285e65e0606300238s246e637dk54df4e1a449ab2c5@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4285e65e0606300238s246e637dk54df4e1a449ab2c5@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.309 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.366, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.456] X-Spam-Score: -1.309 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 12:23:13 -0000 Hi, Ben. What happens if you don't have an internet connection at the time. I am assuming from your post the Ubuntu desktop cd doesn't contain gnopernicus. If not I am basicly screwed. Anyone know if the server eddition or the alternative install version has gnopernicus? I need to get this thing installed, fire up gnopernicus, basicly without sighted aid, and once I have speech up I can add packages, setup internet connection, etc. ben mustill-rose wrote: > Hi. > > I am also new to ubuntu, and installed it some time ago with sighted assistanse. > > I downloaded the desktop 6.06 iso and berned it to a cd. > You will need sighted help to install this and to install gnopernicus or orca. > Once you have everything set up, click aplications, (alt f1) and click > manage programs; (i don't think its called that, but its something > like that). > If you are connected to the internet, a list of programs that you can > download will load, just find gnopernicus in there. > Note that orca is not in this list, and that i have had PROBLEMS using > gnopernicus along side ubuntu 6.06 and gnome. > > BEN. > From ricaradu@gmail.com Fri Jun 30 09:27:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FCC63B028E for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:27:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22210-03 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:27:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.188]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E52773B033B for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:27:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id o25so268745nfa for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 06:27:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.97.7 with SMTP id u7mr111158hub; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 06:27:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from linbetwin ( [85.186.214.190]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id y1sm517270hua.2006.06.30.06.27.16; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 06:27:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000801c69c48$e793a870$bed6ba55@linbetwin> From: "Aurelian Radu" To: "Thomas Ward" , "ben mustill-rose" References: <44A4E251.8000207@earthlink.net> <20060630092930.GA9048@jdc><4285e65e0606300238s246e637dk54df4e1a449ab2c5@mail.gmail.com> <44A517B1.5000802@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Gnome and Ubuntu 6.06? Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 16:27:14 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.4 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 13:27:20 -0000 Hi, Thomas, Gnopernicus is on the desktop CD and on the alternate CD. Just put the CD into the drive and reboot your machine. Make sure your computer boots from the CD drive first. If you have the desktop CD, your computer will boot into a LiveCD, which is basically an OS that runs from the CD. On the desktop you will see an icon for installing the system. Double-click on it and you will see that installation is very simple. Be careful with partitioning! Do you have free space on the HDD, or an empty partition that you can format without losing data ? About Gnopernicus: what do you need ? The text-to-speech program or the magnifier ? Once you've installed Ubuntu, go to System > Preferences > Assistive technologies. Enable assistive technologies and select the module you want to load (speech, magnifier, braille, onscreen keyboard...). Then click Log Out, log back in and you'll have Gnopernicus on. Are you familiar with other Linux distributions ? Do you know what root is ? If yes, don't worry if Ubuntu doesn't ask you to create a root password. You can use sudo with your user password to execute commands with administrator privileges. I'll be glad to help you if you have more questions. Have a trouble-free install ! Aurelian Radu ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Ward" To: "ben mustill-rose" Cc: Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 3:23 PM Subject: Re: Gnome and Ubuntu 6.06? > Hi, Ben. > What happens if you don't have an internet connection at the time. I am > assuming from your post the Ubuntu desktop cd doesn't contain > gnopernicus. If not I am basicly screwed. > Anyone know if the server eddition or the alternative install version > has gnopernicus? I need to get this thing installed, fire up > gnopernicus, basicly without sighted aid, and once I have speech up I > can add packages, setup internet connection, etc. > > > > ben mustill-rose wrote: >> Hi. >> >> I am also new to ubuntu, and installed it some time ago with sighted >> assistanse. >> >> I downloaded the desktop 6.06 iso and berned it to a cd. >> You will need sighted help to install this and to install gnopernicus or >> orca. >> Once you have everything set up, click aplications, (alt f1) and click >> manage programs; (i don't think its called that, but its something >> like that). >> If you are connected to the internet, a list of programs that you can >> download will load, just find gnopernicus in there. >> Note that orca is not in this list, and that i have had PROBLEMS using >> gnopernicus along side ubuntu 6.06 and gnome. >> >> BEN. >> > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Fri Jun 30 12:09:55 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D9303B02B3 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 12:09:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31379-05 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 12:09:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B782A3B013F for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 12:09:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5UG9nvx010680 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J1O00701KVI1T00@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([63.207.212.14]) by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J1O00FKTKWAY360@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:09:43 -0700 From: Peter Korn Subject: Re: Gnome and Ubuntu 6.06? In-reply-to: <44A4E251.8000207@earthlink.net> Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: Thomas Ward Message-id: <44A54CC7.30206@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <44A4E251.8000207@earthlink.net> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 16:09:55 -0000 Hi Thomas, Please see http://live.gnome.org/Orca/UbuntuDapperDrake for instructions on getting Orca up and running on Ubuntu version 6.0.6 (known as the "Dapper Drake" release). Regards, Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. > Hi, list. > This might seam like a really stupid question, but I have been hearing > allot about Ubuntu Linux which I'd like to try, and don't have a > fricking clue on how to get it up and working. I have spent hours > reading the Ubuntu sight and can't even find a basic install guide for > it. So here is the question. What do I need to get a basic Ubuntu system > up and running with gnome 2.14 and gnopernicus or orca? > While I am at it it might help to tell me what disk I need the desktop, > server, or other disk image. I've already got the desktop disk and can't > figure how to install it nor can I find the packages on the disk so I am > all screwed up with this distribution. As I said I need someone to help > me with the very very very basics of even stalling, setup, and telling > me what is what. I know nothing about Ubuntu and they have like 0 setup > and install guides that I can find. > Any help? > Thanks. > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > From christian08@runbox.com Fri Jun 30 16:58:44 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FB913B02A6 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 16:58:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13720-02 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 16:58:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aibo.runbox.com (aibo.runbox.com [193.71.199.94]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 093B93B0293 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 16:58:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.9.9.160] (helo=penny.runbox.com ident=Debian-exim) by greyhound.runbox.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1FwQ4Y-0004Fd-7Y for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 22:58:42 +0200 Received: from [81.216.142.231] (helo=127.0.0.1) by penny.runbox.com with esmtpsa (uid:521761 ) (SSL 3.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32) (Exim 4.50) id 1FwQ4Y-0001kX-3I for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 22:58:42 +0200 Message-ID: <200606302258440015.0018CE09@127.0.0.1> X-Mailer: Courier 3.50.00.09.1098 (http://www.rosecitysoftware.com) (P) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 22:58:44 +0200 From: "Christian" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Need help with installing latest Ubuntu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 20:58:44 -0000 Hello all, Finally, I managed to run the latest Live CD of Ubuntu and use Gnopernicus.= However, I cant install Ubuntu onto my system. I know that the installer= doesn't talk without doing some things. As a none Linux expert, I have to ask a few questions! When to execute sudo -s? I did this when I pressed Alt+F2 for run. Should I= close Gnopernicus first? I did so. After I had enter sudo -s and pressed enter I entered gnopernicus from= there but nothing happened. Please, give me any direction. I really want to install this system! Many thanks, Christian From bjsn@ozemail.com.au Fri Jun 30 19:53:32 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DF253B03EE for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 19:53:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22742-02 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 19:53:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail-ihug.icp-qv1-irony3.iinet.net.au (ihug-mail.icp-qv1-irony3.iinet.net.au [203.59.1.197]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 846933B03C3 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 19:53:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 203-206-69-98.dyn.iinet.net.au (HELO [192.168.1.100]) ([203.206.69.98]) by mail-ihug.icp-qv1-irony3.iinet.net.au with ESMTP; 01 Jul 2006 07:53:24 +0800 X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-IronPort-AV: i="4.06,198,1149436800"; d="scan'208"; a="846339191:sNHT13226404" Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2006 09:53:27 +1000 (EST) From: Jan and Bertil Smark Nilsson X-X-Sender: bertil@localhost.localdomain To: Thomas Ward Subject: Re: Gnome and Ubuntu 6.06? In-Reply-To: <44A516DF.9080107@earthlink.net> Message-ID: References: <44A4E251.8000207@earthlink.net> <20060630092930.GA9048@jdc> <44A516DF.9080107@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.323 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.276, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.323 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 23:53:32 -0000 Thomas, I've a feeling that you've downloaded the wrong ISO. For what you want to do, You'll need the alternate install image from Ubuntu. There, you'll also find an installation manual. I suggest you download ubuntu-6.06-alternate-i386.iso if you have an Intel processor. Good luck! Bertil Smark Nilsson On Fri, 30 Jun 2006, Thomas Ward wrote: > Hi, Jason. > Thanks for the information. I just read through the Debian installation > manual, and while it seams strait forward I don't think it reflects > what I am seeing as far as Ubuntu 6.06 desktop version. Now, the manual > did mention using a preconfiguration script which would allow one to do > an autoinstall of Debian. I wonder if the same is true for Ubuntu, and > how much different is the preconfiguration script etc from Debian in > Ubuntu. As I am blind and don't have much help around an > autoinstallation or a terminal install is esentual for me getting this > thing on my system. So I will be doing this the hard way. Wish more > distributions were like Fedora and allowed for autoinstalls, telnet > installs, and terminal installs. > My hope and desire is to run say an autoinstall have it get it on, > reboot in to gnome, and fire up gnopernicus after login. Is that a > reasonable expectation for Ubuntu or am I barking up the wrong tree. I > can do this with Fedora but can't do this with most other distributions, > but I am hoping Ubuntu will be able to do this as well. > > > > > Jason White wrote: >> Ubuntu is based on the Debian GNU/Linux distribution, and reputedly uses an >> installer based on Debian's. Thus you may find the Debian installation guide >> helpful for the basic operating system installation process. >> http://www.debian.org/ (look under "documentation"). >> >> I am sure Ubuntu users subscribed to this list will suggest how you can most >> easily set it up to run Gnopernicus, Orca or whatever you need. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > From Evan.Yan@Sun.COM Fri Jun 2 03:30:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22E083B0387 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 03:30:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06467-05 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 03:30:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sineb-mail-2.sun.com (sineb-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.19.7]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1A803B1061 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 03:29:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fe-apac-05.sun.com (fe-apac-05.sun.com [192.18.19.176] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k527TuS2009928 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:29:57 +0800 (SGT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J080000125VLS00@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Evan.Yan@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:29:56 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.158.144.94] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J08003J425W5DGH@mail-apac.sun.com> for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:29:56 +0800 (SGT) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:31:13 +0800 From: Evan Yan Sender: Evan.Yan@Sun.COM To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-id: <447FE941.4080001@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Can GOK work with autocompletion? X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 07:30:36 -0000 Hi all, I'm now working on a mozilla a11y bug, about autocompletion. The URL of the bug is https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=338242 I'm not sure whether GOK can work with autocompletion. When I input something used before into a textbox, the autocompletion will pop up, could GOK update to show the autocompletion items? I also tried that in Evolution. When writing a email, inputing a mail address which have been in the contact list, the autocompletion pop up, GOK also can't work with it. Is that a GOK bug? Thanks, Evan From alastairirving19@hotmail.com Fri Jun 2 07:41:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 159813B040E for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 07:41:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22456-10 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 07:41:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (bay112-dav20.bay112.hotmail.com [64.4.26.92]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCD603B03DE for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 07:41:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 04:41:17 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.129.189.168 by BAY112-DAV20.phx.gbl with DAV; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 11:41:14 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.129.189.168] X-Originating-Email: [alastairirving19@hotmail.com] X-Sender: alastairirving19@hotmail.com From: "Alastair Irving" To: Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 12:41:24 +0100 Message-ID: <000201c68639$7a31a6d0$0301a8c0@alastair> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C68641.DBF60ED0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2616 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Importance: Normal X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Jun 2006 11:41:17.0982 (UTC) FILETIME=[7621C3E0:01C68639] X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.544 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.364, BAYES_50=0.001, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST=1.708, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: 0.544 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Problem with orca X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 11:41:20 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C68641.DBF60ED0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello I have just installed orca 0.2.4 on my fedora core 5 laptop. The compilation went without errors. However, when I load orca, it says "orca initialised, switching to focus tracking mode", and then speech stops. I am informed that a message saying that the gnome panel has unexpectedly quit is displayed. I had this same problem with the version of gnopernicus shipped with fc5, but when I reinstalled from source it was resolved. Has anyone come across this before? Alastair Irving e-mail (and MSN): alastairirving19@hotmail.com ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C68641.DBF60ED0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Hello
 
I have = just=20 installed orca 0.2.4 on my fedora core 5 laptop.  The compilation = went=20 without errors.  However, when I load orca, it says "orca = initialised,=20 switching to focus tracking mode", and then speech stops.  I am = informed=20 that a message saying that the gnome panel has unexpectedly quit is=20 displayed. 
 
I had = this same=20 problem with the version of gnopernicus shipped with fc5, but when I = reinstalled=20 from source it was resolved.
 
Has = anyone come=20 across this before?
 
Alastair = Irving
e-mail (and = MSN): alastairirving19@hotmail.com=
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C68641.DBF60ED0-- From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Fri Jun 2 10:57:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D58D13B1189 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 10:57:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01532-10 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 10:57:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96D273B1174 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 10:57:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-04.sun.com ([192.18.39.114]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k52EvGNh007567 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 07:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-04.sun.com by d1-sfbay-04.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0800501LJXA200@d1-sfbay-04.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 07:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.21.165] by d1-sfbay-04.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J08000OEMVDEZ40@d1-sfbay-04.sun.com> for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 07:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 07:57:11 -0700 From: Peter Korn In-reply-to: <447FE941.4080001@Sun.COM> Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: Evan Yan Message-id: <448051C7.7050307@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <447FE941.4080001@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (Windows/20060308) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.523 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.075, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.523 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Can GOK work with autocompletion? X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 14:57:57 -0000 Hi Evan, This is an interesting idea - having GOK work with auto-completion! GOK has its own work completion algorithm, but that by its nature cannot have application-specific knowledge, and so generally won't do as good a job. The question is, how should GOK show such application-specific word completion, and how do we communicate that between the application and GOK via AT-SPI. Evan, David - any thoughts? Regards, Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. > Hi all, > > I'm now working on a mozilla a11y bug, about autocompletion. The URL of > the bug is > https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=338242 > > I'm not sure whether GOK can work with autocompletion. > When I input something used before into a textbox, the autocompletion > will pop up, could GOK update to show the autocompletion items? > I also tried that in Evolution. When writing a email, inputing a mail > address which have been in the contact list, the autocompletion pop up, > GOK also can't work with it. > > Is that a GOK bug? > > Thanks, > Evan > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > From david.bolter@utoronto.ca Fri Jun 2 15:28:02 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F18553B0210 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:28:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18925-03 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:27:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bureau8.utcc.utoronto.ca (bureau8.utcc.utoronto.ca [128.100.132.18]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B6C63B0B87 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:27:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail5.ns.utoronto.ca ([128.100.132.37] EHLO webmail5.ns.utoronto.ca ident: IDENT-NOT-QUERIED [port 51626]) by bureau8.utcc.utoronto.ca with ESMTP id <25121-29744>; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:25:00 -0400 Received: by webmail5.ns.utoronto.ca id <873031-8996>; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:24:50 -0400 Received: from 64.231.159.101 ( [64.231.159.101]) as user bolterda@10.143.0.52 by webmail.utoronto.ca with HTTP; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:24:46 -0400 Message-ID: <1149276286.4480907eece14@webmail.utoronto.ca> Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:24:46 -0400 From: david.bolter@utoronto.ca To: Peter Korn References: <447FE941.4080001@Sun.COM> <448051C7.7050307@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <448051C7.7050307@sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.638 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_REAL_NAME=0.961] X-Spam-Score: -1.638 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Evan Yan , gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Can GOK work with autocompletion? X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 19:28:02 -0000 Hi guys. Technically I'm on holiday today. I think we could choose an existing event (or propose a new one) for notification regarding this... and GOK could create a key representing the current app-autocompletion. Nice idea guys! cheers, D Quoting Peter Korn : > Hi Evan, > > This is an interesting idea - having GOK work with auto-completion! GOK > has its own work completion algorithm, but that by its nature cannot > have application-specific knowledge, and so generally won't do as good a > job. > > The question is, how should GOK show such application-specific word > completion, and how do we communicate that between the application and > GOK via AT-SPI. Evan, David - any thoughts? > > > Regards, > > Peter Korn > Accessibility Architect, > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > Hi all, > > > > I'm now working on a mozilla a11y bug, about autocompletion. The URL of > > the bug is > > https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=338242 > > > > I'm not sure whether GOK can work with autocompletion. > > When I input something used before into a textbox, the autocompletion > > will pop up, could GOK update to show the autocompletion items? > > I also tried that in Evolution. When writing a email, inputing a mail > > address which have been in the contact list, the autocompletion pop up, > > GOK also can't work with it. > > > > Is that a GOK bug? > > > > Thanks, > > Evan > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Fri Jun 2 16:00:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C770E3B0339 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 16:00:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20811-03 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 16:00:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9B203B015D for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 16:00:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-01.sun.com ([192.18.39.111]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k52JxvUS028281 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 12:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-01.sun.com by d1-sfbay-01.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0900G010IPLV00@d1-sfbay-01.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 12:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.21.165] by d1-sfbay-01.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0900CKK0VV9U10@d1-sfbay-01.sun.com>; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 12:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 12:59:53 -0700 From: Peter Korn In-reply-to: <1149276286.4480907eece14@webmail.utoronto.ca> Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: david.bolter@utoronto.ca Message-id: <448098B9.8080204@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <447FE941.4080001@Sun.COM> <448051C7.7050307@sun.com> <1149276286.4480907eece14@webmail.utoronto.ca> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (Windows/20060308) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.528 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.070, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.528 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Evan Yan , gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Can GOK work with autocompletion? X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:00:08 -0000 Hi David, Hmmm... I wonder about using the AccessibleAction interface for this, with a naming convention we might all follow for the . Something like: "auto-complete:" as the action name, where "" is the actual auto-complete text that would be inserted (and thus displayed on the GOK key). Then the tooltip-like window that appears with the auto-complete options would implement the ATK_Action interface. This is more heavy-weight than having a special role for the tooltip-like window with text to be extracted, but it is also less constraining of the user interface implementation that programmers render. Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. > Hi guys. Technically I'm on holiday today. I think we could choose an existing > event (or propose a new one) for notification regarding this... and GOK could > create a key representing the current app-autocompletion. > > Nice idea guys! > > cheers, > D > Quoting Peter Korn : > > >> Hi Evan, >> >> This is an interesting idea - having GOK work with auto-completion! GOK >> has its own work completion algorithm, but that by its nature cannot >> have application-specific knowledge, and so generally won't do as good a >> job. >> >> The question is, how should GOK show such application-specific word >> completion, and how do we communicate that between the application and >> GOK via AT-SPI. Evan, David - any thoughts? >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Peter Korn >> Accessibility Architect, >> Sun Microsystems, Inc. >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I'm now working on a mozilla a11y bug, about autocompletion. The URL of >>> the bug is >>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=338242 >>> >>> I'm not sure whether GOK can work with autocompletion. >>> When I input something used before into a textbox, the autocompletion >>> will pop up, could GOK update to show the autocompletion items? >>> I also tried that in Evolution. When writing a email, inputing a mail >>> address which have been in the contact list, the autocompletion pop up, >>> GOK also can't work with it. >>> >>> Is that a GOK bug? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Evan >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > From Evan.Yan@Sun.COM Sun Jun 4 13:47:19 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DBC03B0149 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 13:47:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00810-07 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 13:47:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sineb-mail-1.sun.com (sineb-mail-1.sun.com [192.18.19.6]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE6513B0130 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 13:47:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fe-apac-06.sun.com (fe-apac-06.sun.com [192.18.19.177] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k54HlBlW001893 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:47:13 +0800 (SGT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0C00C01JYLYV00@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Evan.Yan@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 01:47:11 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.150.145.22] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0C00D5YK1F36A2@mail-apac.sun.com>; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 01:47:11 +0800 (SGT) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 01:46:27 +0800 From: Evan Yan In-reply-to: <448098B9.8080204@sun.com> Sender: Evan.Yan@Sun.COM To: Peter Korn Message-id: <44831C73.8020402@Sun.COM> Organization: sceri MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <447FE941.4080001@Sun.COM> <448051C7.7050307@sun.com> <1149276286.4480907eece14@webmail.utoronto.ca> <448098B9.8080204@sun.com> User-Agent: Mail/News 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060515) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: Cc: david.bolter@utoronto.ca, Ginn.Chen@Sun.COM, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Can GOK work with autocompletion? X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 17:47:19 -0000 Hi Peter & David, I feel that app-autocompletion is something similar to pop-up menu. Could we leverage the implementation of accessible pop-up menu? I found GOK can update to show autocompletion items under some particular situation, like the following steps: 1. start Firefox and locate to www.google.com, focus on the "search" textbox; 2. select GOK UI-Grab 3. click on the "search" textbox by mouse directly, not through GOK, that makes the autocompletion pop up. Then, GOK will update to show autocompletion items. However, clicking on the items shown by GOK has no effect except collapsing the autocompletion window. Hope this could help. Besides GOK can't work with autocompletion, when autocompletion in Firefox pops up, it takes minutes for GOK to start responsing any action on it. I could see by the event-listener tool of at-spi that there are hundreds of events through GOK and Firefox, it seems GOK are refreshing all the atk objects. is that a normal phenomenon or somthing wrong? Thank you, Evan Peter Korn wrote: > Hi David, > > Hmmm... I wonder about using the AccessibleAction interface for this, > with a naming convention we might all follow for the . Something like: > > "auto-complete:" > > as the action name, where "" is the actual auto-complete text > that would be inserted (and thus displayed on the GOK key). Then the > tooltip-like window that appears with the auto-complete options would > implement the ATK_Action interface. > This is more heavy-weight than having a special role for the > tooltip-like window with text to be extracted, but it is also less > constraining of the user interface implementation that programmers > render. > > > Peter Korn > Accessibility Architect, > Sun Microsystems, Inc. >> Hi guys. Technically I'm on holiday today. I think we could choose >> an existing >> event (or propose a new one) for notification regarding this... and >> GOK could >> create a key representing the current app-autocompletion. >> >> Nice idea guys! >> >> cheers, >> D >> Quoting Peter Korn : >> >> >>> Hi Evan, >>> >>> This is an interesting idea - having GOK work with auto-completion! >>> GOK has its own work completion algorithm, but that by its nature >>> cannot have application-specific knowledge, and so generally won't >>> do as good a job. >>> >>> The question is, how should GOK show such application-specific word >>> completion, and how do we communicate that between the application >>> and GOK via AT-SPI. Evan, David - any thoughts? >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Peter Korn >>> Accessibility Architect, >>> Sun Microsystems, Inc. >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I'm now working on a mozilla a11y bug, about autocompletion. The >>>> URL of >>>> the bug is >>>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=338242 >>>> >>>> I'm not sure whether GOK can work with autocompletion. >>>> When I input something used before into a textbox, the autocompletion >>>> will pop up, could GOK update to show the autocompletion items? >>>> I also tried that in Evolution. When writing a email, inputing a mail >>>> address which have been in the contact list, the autocompletion pop >>>> up, >>>> GOK also can't work with it. >>>> >>>> Is that a GOK bug? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Evan >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >>>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >>>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >> > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From bram@bramd.nl Sun Jun 4 17:55:08 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E18483B01B7 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:55:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13065-09 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:55:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bramd.nl (dsl251-4-101.fastxdsl.nl [80.101.4.251]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72A083B02B6 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:55:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (linux.bramd.nl [127.0.0.1]) by bramd.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54ED5144103 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 23:54:59 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: bramd.nl antivirus Received: from bramd.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (linux.lan.bramd.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n9CAfyI2djAx for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 23:54:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bramdd.lan.bramd.nl (bramdd.lan.bramd.nl [192.168.1.12]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by bramd.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53A33120109 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 23:54:55 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 23:54:47 +0200 From: Bram Duvigneau X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.80.03) Professional Organization: BramD.nl X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1759379234.20060604235447@bramd.nl> To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.464 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.464 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Gnopernicus and the new ubuntu installer X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Bram Duvigneau List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 21:55:08 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: MD5 Hi all, I just tried the new Ubuntu Dapper Drake live cd and the ubuntu express installer with gnopernicus. Gnopernicus is running quite well from the cd, but I had to do a few steps to get the installer talking: - - - Launch gnopernicus - - - Enable assistive technology support - - - Log out and in again - - - Launch gnopernicus from terminal, otherwise gnome-panel crshes - - - Get a root shell with sudo -s - - - Launch gnopernicus from there to ge taccess to the installer So far so good, but when I get to the screen where I can select my location, I'm getting stuck on the combobox of citties. I selected English as system language, therefor I'm only getting citties in the usa. I tried everything, but I couldn't get to citties in Europe. Does someone know how to manage this? Maybe it's also a good idea to change this in future versions to something easier to use for the blind, because this isn't really friendly for new blind linux users. Bram -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6 iQEVAwUARINWqq7p29XxtEd/AQFVmggAg7dwV93Mm1RY0Zh08gzi4AqUBBy4ZfmZ mPvrGkmVHOab2PvLu8wdTqMFBmEmPnmhL1M3nHUCV+eKazALhaAff+jCs3o3Z2th YyQHUcypY1Won/8lxoQvv0el2n33DJg9yfGIjxp0iIs1n5HxSnMf3X2eGKQsGtvi 2n3pR85Zj/pezsTRBMHGNy8H60raMYPY5UascT8H630feZqlMksuSZDxn47cJxLB doPU+i2hUVtY3ZovNANW34jYCEF0Uxux60ZcQUS8tauz0733v3MTeJYuX57iTU+2 5KGRwC9AqRQmS9CiMiuMQwv4QATK6Iy/IyfUBdeBOJyDdZMQmuTzxw== =MsLy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nowindows@terrencevak.net Sun Jun 4 21:29:30 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16F823B0448 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 21:29:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24753-03 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 21:29:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtpout08-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout08-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.12]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 128B23B0356 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 21:29:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 31491 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 01:29:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.223.182.2) by smtpout08-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.12) with ESMTP; 05 Jun 2006 01:29:25 -0000 Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:29:16 -0800 (AKDT) From: nowindows@terrencevak.net X-X-Sender: nowindows@Knoppix To: Bram Duvigneau In-Reply-To: <1759379234.20060604235447@bramd.nl> Message-ID: References: <1759379234.20060604235447@bramd.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.221 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.74, NO_REAL_NAME=0.961] X-Spam-Score: 0.221 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Gnopernicus and the new ubuntu installer X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 01:29:30 -0000 Do you still have the URL for that installer by chance? I'd like to try that instead of the patched-together arrangement I have now, which isn't working too well. Thanks, Terrence From petra@access-for-all.ch Mon Jun 5 01:01:19 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98AC23B0278 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:01:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03080-09 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:01:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from srv94-187.ip-tech.ch (backup01.scalera.ch [195.129.94.187]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F3023B039A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:01:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 26277 invoked by uid 503); 5 Jun 2006 05:08:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blade1-4.iptech.localdomain) (10.10.1.250) by 0 with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 05:08:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 22427 invoked by uid 104); 5 Jun 2006 05:01:10 -0000 Received: from 62.203.161.3 by blade1-4 (envelope-from , uid 408) with qmail-scanner-1.25 (clamdscan: 0.87.1. spamassassin: 2.64. Clear:RC:1(62.203.161.3):. Processed in 0.058345 secs); 05 Jun 2006 05:01:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO LESE-SCHREIBSYS) (62.203.161.3) by blade1-4.iptech.localdomain with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 05:01:09 -0000 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 07:01:12 +0200 From: Petra Ritter X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.0.1.33) Home X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <467747190.20060605070112@access-for-all.ch> To: "gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.136 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: 0.136 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Ubuntu Dapper Drake live cd X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Petra Ritter List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 05:01:19 -0000 Hello, I tried the Ubuntu Dapper Drake live cd, too and I run in to two accessibility problems. 1th If I start Ubuntu with the Option 'Blindness from the Accessebility Men=FC Gnopernicus commes up however the speech does mot work after the system is up and runing. Petra From petra@access-for-all.ch Mon Jun 5 01:25:24 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44F793B03EA for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:25:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04430-09 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:25:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from srv94-187.ip-tech.ch (backup01.scalera.ch [195.129.94.187]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6A063B026A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:25:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 5711 invoked by uid 503); 5 Jun 2006 05:32:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blade1-4.iptech.localdomain) (10.10.1.250) by 0 with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 05:32:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 30910 invoked by uid 104); 5 Jun 2006 05:25:20 -0000 Received: from 62.203.161.3 by blade1-4 (envelope-from , uid 408) with qmail-scanner-1.25 (clamdscan: 0.87.1. spamassassin: 2.64. Clear:RC:1(62.203.161.3):. Processed in 0.055812 secs); 05 Jun 2006 05:25:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO LESE-SCHREIBSYS) (62.203.161.3) by blade1-4.iptech.localdomain with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 05:25:20 -0000 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 07:25:23 +0200 From: Petra Ritter X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.0.1.33) Home X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <14710359560.20060605072523@access-for-all.ch> To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.32 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.144, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.32 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Ubuntu Dapper Drake live cd X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Petra Ritter List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 05:25:25 -0000 Hello , I tried the Ubuntu Dapper Drake live cd, too and I run in to two accessibility problems. 1th If I start Ubuntu with the Option 'Blindness from the Accessebility Men=FC Gnopernicus commes up however the speech does not work after the system is up and runing. 2th I diden't managed to read the Help from Gnopernicus itself. Gnopernicus just diden't read it. The same problem appear in Firefox and in Evolution. It seam thet Gnopernicus cant read any HTML dokument. Assuming the help from Gnopernicus is HTML, too I tried alrady F7 in order to activate the "Carat Browsing" however with no success at all. Is there anything else that I can try to get Gnopernicus to read the Help? Or is there anywhere on the Internet a documentation for Gnome exept the Tabele of the Layers on the Gnopernicus Website? Petra From henrik@ubuntu.com Mon Jun 5 05:20:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACF893B00CE for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 05:20:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17743-10 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 05:20:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 116903B010D for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 05:20:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.0.10] (henrik.gotadsl.co.uk [82.133.122.11]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44EE83392D4; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 10:09:21 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <4483F4C6.8080109@ubuntu.com> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:09:26 +0100 From: Henrik Nilsen Omma User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060522) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org References: <1759379234.20060604235447@bramd.nl> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.591 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.008, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.591 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Gnopernicus and the new ubuntu installer X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 09:20:07 -0000 nowindows@terrencevak.net wrote: > Do you still have the URL for that installer by chance? I'd like > to try that instead of the patched-together arrangement I have now, which > isn't working too well. > The Ubuntu Live CD can be downloaded from here: http://www.ubuntu.com/download That comes in the form of an ISO image that must be burned to a CD, and then boot with that CD. Some instructions on using the accessibility features are here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/doc/StartGuide Note that the system does have some limitations. - Henrik From henrik@ubuntu.com Mon Jun 5 05:25:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43B9A3B031D for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 05:25:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18450-02 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 05:25:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AC5C3B010D for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 05:25:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.0.10] (henrik.gotadsl.co.uk [82.133.122.11]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FB2433AF0D; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 10:19:11 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <4483F714.6040203@ubuntu.com> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:19:16 +0100 From: Henrik Nilsen Omma User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060522) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org References: <1759379234.20060604235447@bramd.nl> In-Reply-To: <1759379234.20060604235447@bramd.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Gnopernicus and the new ubuntu installer X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 09:25:20 -0000 Bram Duvigneau wrote: > Gnopernicus is running quite well from the cd, but I had to do a few > steps to get the installer talking: > > - - - Launch gnopernicus > - - - Enable assistive technology support > - - - Log out and in again > - - - Launch gnopernicus from terminal, otherwise gnome-panel crshes > - - - Get a root shell with sudo -s > - - - Launch gnopernicus from there to ge taccess to the installer > > So far so good, but when I get to the screen where I can select my > location, I'm getting stuck on the combobox of citties. I selected > English as system language, therefor I'm only getting citties in the > usa. I tried everything, but I couldn't get to citties in Europe. Does > someone know how to manage this? Maybe it's also a good idea to change > this in future versions to something easier to use for the blind, > because this isn't really friendly for new blind linux users. > Hi Bram, Thanks for testing and providing this work-around. I've added your description to this page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/doc/StartGuide The Ubiquity installer is basically a very new piece of software with several rough edges. Well done in getting it to work with speech at all using the sudo command. Our goal is obviously to provide a trouble free install path where everything 'just works' as expected. This kind of testing is very valuable in that regard. This is our first attempt ad doing it though, so we expect to have a more polished offering in the October/November release. It would also be useful if you could file a bug about the city combo-box here: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+filebug Thanks. - Henrik From ermengol@gmail.com Thu Jun 8 10:52:26 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E9F53B0524 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 10:52:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13363-01 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 10:52:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.193]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8421F3B0F2F for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 10:52:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so419164wxd for ; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 07:52:23 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=iMykGjuJPdkSVqsogvrI8pNPbnPzh/k/ZlsMh4fYlBeHomvTmrqVXKrE6SJ/1/4w8jwRyEPx1n2j35hZf+ztqo2Hd1/wOT/0G/SyLYWt79JeDd3k2goiEf1W2hRDahYvAQeK0PziznPQKlK2m6XFSXLm7rF3rzK8slShaUb/iqA= Received: by 10.70.100.17 with SMTP id x17mr2173736wxb; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 07:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.43.13 with HTTP; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 07:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 16:52:23 +0200 From: "Ermengol Bota" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.593 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.593 X-Spam-Level: Subject: gnopernicus-magnifier. Full screen magnifier with dummy driver X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 14:52:26 -0000 Hello, I'm trying to use the gnopernicus-magnifier as a full screen magnifier. I followed the instructions at: http://www.gnome.org/learn/access-guide/2.10/apas03.html I did it with the dummy driver, but this approach have a problem and is that you have two displays (one on the left to the other) One display is the zoomed version of the other. But the mouse can move freely from on display to another, so if you are working with the zoomed display and you move the mouse to the left (or right, it depends on X config) then you "move" to the non-zoomed display. And this is a little bit annoying :) Does any body knows about a workaround for this? or any other approach to use full screen magnification on linux? Thanks a lot -- * Ermengol * /*********************************************** * Els ordinadors no resolen problemes, * * simplement executen solucions. * ************************************************/ From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Fri Jun 9 02:15:04 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FC353B00F4 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 02:15:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32071-05 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 02:15:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD48D3B00C3 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 02:15:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-04.sun.com ([192.18.39.114]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k596EsDX009979 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 23:14:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-04.sun.com by d1-sfbay-04.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0K00I01SETE000@d1-sfbay-04.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:14:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([63.207.212.14]) by d1-sfbay-04.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0K00IGLXCT2510@d1-sfbay-04.sun.com>; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:14:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:14:52 -0700 From: Peter Korn In-reply-to: Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: Ermengol Bota Message-id: <448911DC.4090607@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: gnopernicus-magnifier. Full screen magnifier with dummy driver X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 06:15:04 -0000 Hi Ermengol, This is a problem with our current magnification architecture. We are looking forward to magnifiers that are based on several X extensions - most especially the COMPOSITE extension - which will allow us to avoid this bit of hackery. Unfortunately we aren't quite ready with those yet. Regards, Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. > Hello, > I'm trying to use the gnopernicus-magnifier as a full screen magnifier. > I followed the instructions at: > http://www.gnome.org/learn/access-guide/2.10/apas03.html > > I did it with the dummy driver, but this approach have a problem and > is that you have two displays (one on the left to the other) > One display is the zoomed version of the other. But the mouse can move > freely from on display to another, so if you are working with the > zoomed display and you move the mouse to the left (or right, it > depends on X config) then you "move" to the non-zoomed display. And > this is a little bit annoying :) > > Does any body knows about a workaround for this? or any other approach > to use full screen magnification on linux? > > Thanks a lot > From enrico@enricozini.org Sat Jun 10 05:22:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 168EE3B019E for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 05:22:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22030-10 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 05:22:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agnus.ngi.it (agnus.ngi.it [88.149.128.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 705403B0130 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 05:22:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eddie.casa (81-174-12-206.f5.ngi.it [81.174.12.206]) by agnus.ngi.it (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5A9Mn6W017903 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 11:22:52 +0200 Received: from eddie.casa (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eddie.casa (Postfix) with ESMTP id A278D3000BA for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 11:22:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from marvin.casa (marvin.casa [192.168.1.2]) by eddie.casa (Postfix) with ESMTP id 920CA3000B9 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 11:22:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from enrico by marvin.casa with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1FozgF-00037s-00 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 11:22:55 +0200 Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 11:22:55 +0200 From: Enrico Zini To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060610092255.GA9803@marvin.casa> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060403 Sender: Enrico Zini X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.406 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.058, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.406 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Fixing brittle speech support on Dapper X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 09:22:57 -0000 --HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Hello, Hi, I'm Enrico, my current task is to get Dapper to become a usable desktop for Italian blind people. I've been fiddling with the speech accessibility features of Dapper for a few days now, and I found lots of ways to get gnome-speech to hang, Now I'm looking for ways to keep it working. One hanging scenario: - freshly installed dapper, Italian localization - disable esd from preferences/audio - enable accessibility and screen reader from preferences/accessibility - log out and in again - gnopernicus works - disable screen reader (but not accessibility) from preferences/accessibility - log out and in again - orca-setup, works fine, speaks - orca - speech doesn't work anymore. test-speech exits with: Exception Unknown CORBA exception id: 'IDL:omg.org/CORBA/COMM_FAILURE:1.0' getting voice list. Another hanging scenario: - freshly installed dapper, Italian localization - disable esd from preferences/audio - enable 'universe' and install festlex-ifd, festvox-italp16k and festvox-itapc16k to have italian synthesis - enable accessibility and screen reader from preferences/accessibility - log out and in again - gnopernicus works in English - go in the preferences/speech/voices menu and choose the italian female voice for all voices, raise the rate a bit. The female voice speaks when raising the rate. - close the Voices menu, no more speech. test-speech exits with: Exception Unknown CORBA exception id: 'IDL:omg.org/CORBA/COMM_FAILURE:1.0' getting voice list. In test-speech, the Speech Dispatcher output doesn't work. The festival one works, but breaks after a minimum of use, where minimum of use means just choosing the voices I'd like to use. What can I look/try to get myself unstuck? Ciao, Enrico -- GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini --HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEio9v9LSwzHl+v6sRAmOUAJ9bdcQUGWLxi/5ojqTEJaDxYmirpQCgiBtj KWj7kZTPjPpyTXmRLrDZ9Sg= =uxCv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD-- From janina@opera.rednote.net Sat Jun 10 12:22:02 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 732FA3B0237; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 12:22:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14037-10; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 12:22:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (opera.rednote.net [70.84.142.212]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAC243B00F8; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 12:22:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5AGLvPF026152; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 16:21:57 GMT Received: (from janina@localhost) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k5AGLsVu026151; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 12:21:54 -0400 Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 12:21:54 -0400 From: Janina Sajka To: Orca screen reader developers Message-ID: <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Operating-System: Linux opera.rednote.net 2.6.16-1.2122_FC5spksmp Organization: Capital Accessibility LLC (http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com) X-PGP-Key: http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com/JaninaSajka_gpg_key.html X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.276 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.277, BAYES_50=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.276 X-Spam-Level: Cc: blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, speakup@braille.uwo.ca, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 16:22:02 -0000 Mike Pedersen writes: > We have been informed, however, that there can be only one screen > reader/magnifier in the GNOME desktop. > That's a rather outrageous attitude. Who made that decision? Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application? The day may come when there is but one screen reader on the GUI desktop, but I rather doubt it given that both Gnome and KDE are likely to remain with us. However, to proactively restrict inclusion while all manner of other (sometimes only half-baked) applications are included rankles. Frankly, it's an insult. This kind of grudging support for accessibility needs to be stopped right now. In fact, it's a stretch to even call it "support." Do these deciders wonder that people in Massachusetts got so upset last year over the simple move to an open file format. Given this kind of attitude, they'll never change their minds Always remember that just proclaiming, "we support accessibility," doesn't make it so. We will not judge by published proclamations but rather by deeds. -- Janina Sajka Phone: +1.240.715.1272 Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC http://CapitalAccessibility.Com Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada--Go to http://ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more. Chair, Accessibility Workgroup Free Standards Group (FSG) janina@freestandards.org http://a11y.org From henrik@ubuntu.com Sat Jun 10 15:04:59 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F0473B022A; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:04:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21539-04; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:04:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 114EF3B00D0; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:04:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.0.10] (henrik.gotadsl.co.uk [82.133.122.11]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F102339074; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 20:00:56 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 20:01:00 +0100 From: Henrik Nilsen Omma User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060522) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Orca screen reader developers References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> In-Reply-To: <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, speakup@braille.uwo.ca, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:04:59 -0000 Janina Sajka wrote: > Mike Pedersen writes: > >> We have been informed, however, that there can be only one screen >> reader/magnifier in the GNOME desktop. >> >> > That's a rather outrageous attitude. Who made that decision? > > Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media > player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application? > I think you may have misinterpreted this slightly. The idea is that there will only be one official screen reader in Gnome, as there indeed is only one email client (Evolution), one browser (Epiphany), one office suite (gnome office, using abiword and gnumeric). Distributions can, and do, change these defaults and users can install a whole range of options. In Ubuntu we include Firefox instead of Epiphany, OpenOffice instead of Gnome Office, etc. I see no problems with that. Currently we have Gnopernicus installed by default and Orca as an option. For our next release we will likely change that so that Orca becomes the default and Gnopernicus the option. We still package and support a wide range of options beyond that though and we are actively working on several new accessibility tools from scratch. > Frankly, it's an insult. This kind of grudging support for accessibility needs to be stopped right now. In fact, it's a stretch to even call it "support." > This may be true in some areas of the open source world still, that accessibility is an afterthought, but we are working to improve that. An important factor in becoming better at this is learning to collaborate better and work together on common tools. Choice is good in principle, but the price of fragmented effort can be high. Finally, I think you are complaining the wrong audience here (various accessibility lists). All these people are already on your side. If you want to make this complaint it should go to the main developer lists of gnome, redhat, ubuntu, etc. Though that said, I do actually think that gnome is right in their policy on this. Henrik Omma Ubuntu Accessibility Coordinator From aedil@alchar.org Sat Jun 10 15:36:39 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5629C3B0494 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:36:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23108-04 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:36:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from alchar.org (dsl081-071-219.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.71.219]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A24953B03AC for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:36:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 10120 invoked by uid 100); 10 Jun 2006 19:37:54 -0000 Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:37:54 -0400 From: Kris Van Hees To: Henrik Nilsen Omma Message-ID: <20060610193754.GC21840@alchar.org> Mail-Followup-To: Kris Van Hees , Henrik Nilsen Omma , Orca screen reader developers , blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, speakup@braille.uwo.ca, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.395 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, SPF_NEUTRAL=1.069] X-Spam-Score: -1.395 X-Spam-Level: Cc: speakup@braille.uwo.ca, Orca screen reader developers , blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:36:39 -0000 On Sat, Jun 10, 2006 at 08:01:00PM +0100, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > Janina Sajka wrote: > >Mike Pedersen writes: > >>We have been informed, however, that there can be only one screen > >>reader/magnifier in the GNOME desktop. > >> > >That's a rather outrageous attitude. Who made that decision? > > > >Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media > >player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application? > > > I think you may have misinterpreted this slightly. The idea is that > there will only be one official screen reader in Gnome, as there indeed > is only one email client (Evolution), one browser (Epiphany), one office > suite (gnome office, using abiword and gnumeric). Distributions can, and > do, change these defaults and users can install a whole range of options. Not to start a holy war, but a reasonable part of the audience that believes in an alternative to Microsoft Windows also supports the notion of *not* including various other applications and suites. While Gnome is surely not an OS, it seems rather weird (and potentially dangerous) to me to end up with a situation where Gnome has an official screen reader, an official mail client, etc... By including specific official applications and suites in Gnome, you're bound to get into a situation where a large group of people will end up simply sticking to the officially included applications and suites, either by choice (easier) or as mandated by an IT department that takes the "we only run the officially included stuff" approach (all too comon). And in the end... why not simply leave Gnome to be the desktop environment it is, and let users choose what they want? Why does there need to be one official choice, and optional alternatives? I can see where the general public falls for this, and how from a "let's pretend the user is stupid" perspective this can be considered "user-friendly", but I would hope that we (as a special interest group) can express a genuine concern about this type of policy to the powers that be (and that make this type of policy). Kris From janina@opera.rednote.net Sat Jun 10 19:51:16 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B5FA3B018D; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:51:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32643-07; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:51:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (opera.rednote.net [70.84.142.212]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D56C3B00BE; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:51:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5ANnceh017788; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:49:38 GMT Received: (from janina@localhost) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k5ANnb4C017787; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:49:37 -0400 Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:49:37 -0400 From: Janina Sajka To: Henrik Nilsen Omma Message-ID: <20060610234937.GO2259@rednote.net> References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Operating-System: Linux opera.rednote.net 2.6.16-1.2122_FC5spksmp Organization: Capital Accessibility LLC (http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com) X-PGP-Key: http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com/JaninaSajka_gpg_key.html X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.562 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.037, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.562 X-Spam-Level: Cc: speakup@braille.uwo.ca, Orca screen reader developers , blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:51:16 -0000 Henrik Nilsen Omma writes: > Janina Sajka wrote: > >Mike Pedersen writes: > > > >>We have been informed, however, that there can be only one screen > >>reader/magnifier in the GNOME desktop. > >> > >> > >That's a rather outrageous attitude. Who made that decision? > > > >Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media > >player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application? > > > I think you may have misinterpreted this slightly. The idea is that > there will only be one official screen reader in Gnome, as there indeed > is only one email client (Evolution), one browser (Epiphany), one office > suite (gnome office, using abiword and gnumeric). Distributions can, and > do, change these defaults and users can install a whole range of options. > So, it seems I have misunderstood the policy quite thoroughly. I apologize for that. I am not sure the policy of having only one of a kind makes much sense to me, but I certainly do not find discrimination in such a policy when it's even handidly applied across the board. > In Ubuntu we include Firefox instead of Epiphany, OpenOffice instead of > Gnome Office, etc. I see no problems with that. Currently we have > Gnopernicus installed by default and Orca as an option. For our next > release we will likely change that so that Orca becomes the default and > Gnopernicus the option. We still package and support a wide range of > options beyond that though and we are actively working on several new > accessibility tools from scratch. Yes, those are accessibility friendly substitutions, and Ubuntu is to be commended for this. > >Frankly, it's an insult. This kind of grudging support for accessibility > >needs to be stopped right now. In fact, it's a stretch to even call it > >"support." > > > This may be true in some areas of the open source world still, that > accessibility is an afterthought, but we are working to improve that. An > important factor in becoming better at this is learning to collaborate > better and work together on common tools. Choice is good in principle, > but the price of fragmented effort can be high. Indeed so, especially in edge cases such as AT apps On the other hand AT on the Linux GUI is still fairly new, and what approaches will prove truly successful for the user is still to be seen.. We certainly do need to work on cooperation and collaboration, but I suspect we're stronger if we support the option for alternative approaches. I suspect, for instance, that accessibility on the desktop is enhanced because KDE and Gnome were able to agree on the same messaging SPI, while continuing to remain autonomous and distinctive desktops. > > Finally, I think you are complaining the wrong audience here (various > accessibility lists). All these people are already on your side. If you > want to make this complaint it should go to the main developer lists of > gnome, redhat, ubuntu, etc. Though that said, I do actually think that > gnome is right in their policy on this. While I apologize for seeing injustice where there clearly isn't any, I still remain unconvinced that an "only one of a kind" policy is the smarter policy. Different issue, of course. Janina > > Henrik Omma > Ubuntu Accessibility Coordinator > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list -- Janina Sajka Phone: +1.240.715.1272 Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC http://CapitalAccessibility.Com Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada--Go to http://ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more. Chair, Accessibility Workgroup Free Standards Group (FSG) janina@freestandards.org http://a11y.org From janina@opera.rednote.net Sat Jun 10 19:59:29 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C29053B02E3; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:59:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00741-06; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:59:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (opera.rednote.net [70.84.142.212]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED43C3B01AE; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:59:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5ANwDVd017891; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:58:13 GMT Received: (from janina@localhost) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k5ANwAA3017890; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:58:10 -0400 Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:58:10 -0400 From: Janina Sajka To: Kris Van Hees , Henrik Nilsen Omma , Orca screen reader developers , blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, speakup@braille.uwo.ca, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060610235810.GP2259@rednote.net> References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> <20060610193754.GC21840@alchar.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060610193754.GC21840@alchar.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Operating-System: Linux opera.rednote.net 2.6.16-1.2122_FC5spksmp Organization: Capital Accessibility LLC (http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com) X-PGP-Key: http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com/JaninaSajka_gpg_key.html X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.565 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.034, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.565 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:59:30 -0000 Thanks, Kris, for getting at the real issue that I missed. I must indeed agree with you. I, for one, am glad that there are dozens of sopas at the store, and several airlines to fly across the Atlantic. I understand it's harder to support choice in distributions and desktops, but I believe it's essential so to do, if for no other reason than it makes us think harder to get the important things right. It's not important that we all use the same email client, for instance, but it is important that we can read email from anyone. I believe the latter is at risk when we allow ourselves the ease of the former. Janina Kris Van Hees writes: > On Sat, Jun 10, 2006 at 08:01:00PM +0100, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > > Janina Sajka wrote: > > >Mike Pedersen writes: > > >>We have been informed, however, that there can be only one screen > > >>reader/magnifier in the GNOME desktop. > > >> > > >That's a rather outrageous attitude. Who made that decision? > > > > > >Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media > > >player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application? > > > > > I think you may have misinterpreted this slightly. The idea is that > > there will only be one official screen reader in Gnome, as there indeed > > is only one email client (Evolution), one browser (Epiphany), one office > > suite (gnome office, using abiword and gnumeric). Distributions can, and > > do, change these defaults and users can install a whole range of options. > > Not to start a holy war, but a reasonable part of the audience that believes in > an alternative to Microsoft Windows also supports the notion of *not* including > various other applications and suites. While Gnome is surely not an OS, it > seems rather weird (and potentially dangerous) to me to end up with a situation > where Gnome has an official screen reader, an official mail client, etc... > By including specific official applications and suites in Gnome, you're bound > to get into a situation where a large group of people will end up simply > sticking to the officially included applications and suites, either by choice > (easier) or as mandated by an IT department that takes the "we only run the > officially included stuff" approach (all too comon). > > And in the end... why not simply leave Gnome to be the desktop environment it > is, and let users choose what they want? Why does there need to be one > official choice, and optional alternatives? I can see where the general public > falls for this, and how from a "let's pretend the user is stupid" perspective > this can be considered "user-friendly", but I would hope that we (as a special > interest group) can express a genuine concern about this type of policy to > the powers that be (and that make this type of policy). > > Kris > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list -- Janina Sajka Phone: +1.240.715.1272 Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC http://CapitalAccessibility.Com Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada--Go to http://ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more. Chair, Accessibility Workgroup Free Standards Group (FSG) janina@freestandards.org http://a11y.org From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Sat Jun 10 20:41:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 176D53B0333; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 20:41:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01799-06; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 20:41:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E8193B000B; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 20:41:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5B0eQlh002102; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:40:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0O00301724OH00@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM); Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.23.100] by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0O00MYQ77DT140@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:40:23 -0700 From: Peter Korn In-reply-to: <20060610193754.GC21840@alchar.org> Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: Kris Van Hees , Henrik Nilsen Omma , Orca screen reader developers , blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, speakup@braille.uwo.ca, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-id: <448B6677.2010400@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> <20060610193754.GC21840@alchar.org> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.532 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.066, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.532 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:41:51 -0000 Greetings, To toss my $0.02 into this discussion... It has proven very useful to the GNOME accessibility project - and to advancing the support for assistive technologies and the implementation of ATK and AT-SPI - to have a screen reader, screen magnifier, and on-screen keyboard included as a formal part of GNOME. By 'blessing' AT in these categories, it has brought far greater awareness of AT to GNOME developers & UNIX distributions, and has led to a lot of compatibility testing, bug finding, and bug fixing. Given that it is general GNOME policy to make one product in any given category the 'default' product that a formal part of the GNOME desktop, I am personally delighted that they have chosen to create such a category for screen reader, screen magnifier, on-screen keyboard, and text-input alternative (Dasher). Regards, Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. > On Sat, Jun 10, 2006 at 08:01:00PM +0100, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > >> Janina Sajka wrote: >> >>> Mike Pedersen writes: >>> >>>> We have been informed, however, that there can be only one screen >>>> reader/magnifier in the GNOME desktop. >>>> >>>> >>> That's a rather outrageous attitude. Who made that decision? >>> >>> Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media >>> player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application? >>> >>> >> I think you may have misinterpreted this slightly. The idea is that >> there will only be one official screen reader in Gnome, as there indeed >> is only one email client (Evolution), one browser (Epiphany), one office >> suite (gnome office, using abiword and gnumeric). Distributions can, and >> do, change these defaults and users can install a whole range of options. >> > > Not to start a holy war, but a reasonable part of the audience that believes in > an alternative to Microsoft Windows also supports the notion of *not* including > various other applications and suites. While Gnome is surely not an OS, it > seems rather weird (and potentially dangerous) to me to end up with a situation > where Gnome has an official screen reader, an official mail client, etc... > By including specific official applications and suites in Gnome, you're bound > to get into a situation where a large group of people will end up simply > sticking to the officially included applications and suites, either by choice > (easier) or as mandated by an IT department that takes the "we only run the > officially included stuff" approach (all too comon). > > And in the end... why not simply leave Gnome to be the desktop environment it > is, and let users choose what they want? Why does there need to be one > official choice, and optional alternatives? I can see where the general public > falls for this, and how from a "let's pretend the user is stupid" perspective > this can be considered "user-friendly", but I would hope that we (as a special > interest group) can express a genuine concern about this type of policy to > the powers that be (and that make this type of policy). > > Kris > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > From j.schmude@gmail.com Sat Jun 10 22:51:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23ED53B05B3 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 22:51:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06037-02 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 22:51:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.202]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE23C3B0588 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 22:51:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id x7so970474nzc for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:50:26 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:content-type:to:from:subject:date:x-mailer; b=FkqiqwKYV6jqK72JUrYg6R4e7hAicwZR5NrV2Ya/FTkAp+FAActyboT3lmnBTCnhOO8zyQRZQqb0J0UP6tn8AxcJBBUNVRInZ90Hy9BvWFsvwF37FNONyt7PwEuLcs3TOK+3uGZ/mAdzwmuvbgn8mb1ql7peqrgAsgKNgjZAhjs= Received: by 10.36.215.18 with SMTP id n18mr6512883nzg; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.0.11? ( [70.162.106.212]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 37sm786308nzf.2006.06.10.19.21.46; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <4E366E31-2C86-4DB3-AEC7-99660ACF8047@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org (Gnome accessibility ) From: Jacob Schmude Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:27:49 -0700 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Orca and 3rd party Emacspeak Servers X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 02:51:03 -0000 Hi everyone I thought I'd try the emacspeak server support in Orca to see if it would use my doubletalk LT synth. However, Orca only lists the speech servers that come standard with Emacspeak. The emacspeak-ss package add support for many more synthesizers than simply dectalk varients. Is there a way to get these listed in Orca as well or, failing that, have perhaps an "other" option in the list that would allow me to enter a different speech server? I'm going to play with it a bit, maybe I can edit the settings file to make it run anyway. Thanks From dmehler26@woh.rr.com Sun Jun 11 00:12:17 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DC9E3B03FB for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:12:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09104-04 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:12:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ms-smtp-03.ohiordc.rr.com (ms-smtp-03.ohiordc.rr.com [65.24.5.137]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B9C33B00A6 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:12:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from satellite (cpe-65-31-41-159.woh.res.rr.com [65.31.41.159]) by ms-smtp-03.ohiordc.rr.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id k5B3QTul013111 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:26:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <00af01c68d05$29efeba0$0200a8c0@satellite> From: "Dave" To: Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:14:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.069 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=1.069, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001, TW_CV=0.077, TW_DL=0.077, TW_GD=0.077, TW_GT=0.077, TW_LG=0.077, TW_VF=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -1.069 X-Spam-Level: Subject: gnopernicus, java, and access bridge on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Dave List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 04:12:17 -0000 Hello, My name is Dave. I'm a sysadmin with six years Unix experience, FreeBSD and Linux mostly. So far my experience has been with setting up server platforms for FreeBSD for the purposes of this message and not workstations requiring x. A while back when i did it using XFree86 i was unsuccessful. Now i want to replace some Linux fc4 workstations with FreeBSD. I've got xorg configured, gnome starting, and gnopernicus up and running. I'm almost certain i don't have all the accessibility hooks turned on, but i will undoubtedly learn about those as i investigate apps. I want to do as many installs using the FreeBSD ports infrastructure as i feel this would make system upkeep much easier. I'd like access to java apps, using the access bridge. I've installed the jdk 1.5, but when i atempt to compile access bridge i am getting "Error illegal option x" The full output of the compilation atempt is below. If anyone has this working i'd appreciate hearing from you. I'd eventually like to have access to openoffice2 using java as well. Thanks. Dave. compilation: # ./configure checking for a BSD-compatible install... /usr/bin/install -c checking whether build environment is sane... yes checking whether make sets $(MAKE)... yes checking for working aclocal-1.4... missing checking for working autoconf... missing checking for working automake-1.4... missing checking for working autoheader... missing checking for working makeinfo... found checking for java... java checking JDK version... 1.5.0 checking for javac... javac JRE_HOME appears to be /usr/local/bin/jre checking for idlj... idlj checking for jar... jar checking for pkg-config... /usr/local/bin/pkg-config checking for bonobo-activation-2.0 libspi-1.0 >= 1.7.0... yes checking JAVA_BRIDGE_CFLAGS... -DORBIT2=1 -D_REENTRANT -DXTHREADS -DXUSE_MTSAFE_API -I/usr/local/include/bonobo-activation-2.0 -I/usr/local/include/glib-2.0 -I/usr/local/lib/glib-2.0/include -I/usr/local/include/orbit-2.0 -I/usr/local/include/libbonobo-2.0 -I/usr/local/include/atk-1.0 -I/usr/local/include/cairo -I/usr/X11R6/include/at-spi-1.0 -I/usr/X11R6/include/gtk-2.0 -I/usr/X11R6/lib/gtk-2.0/include -I/usr/X11R6/include/pango-1.0 -I/usr/X11R6/include -I/usr/local/include/freetype2 -I/usr/local/include checking JAVA_BRIDGE_LIBS... -pthread -Wl,--rpath -Wl,/usr/local/lib -L/usr/local/lib -L/usr/X11R6/lib -lspi -lbonobo-2 -lgtk-x11-2.0 -lbonobo-activation -lORBit-2 -lgthread-2.0 -lgdk-x11-2.0 -lXrandr -lXi -lXinerama -latk-1.0 -lgdk_pixbuf-2.0 -lpangocairo-1.0 -lXcursor -lXfixes -lcairo -lpangoft2-1.0 -lfontconfig -lfreetype -lz -lpango-1.0 -lm -lXrender -lX11 -lXext -lgobject-2.0 -lgmodule-2.0 -lglib-2.0 -liconv configure: creating ./config.status config.status: creating Makefile config.status: creating idlgen/Makefile config.status: creating idlgen/org/Makefile config.status: creating idlgen/org/GNOME/Makefile config.status: creating idlgen/org/GNOME/Accessibility/Makefile config.status: creating idlgen/org/GNOME/Bonobo/Makefile config.status: creating util/Makefile config.status: creating util/org/Makefile config.status: creating util/org/GNOME/Makefile config.status: creating util/org/GNOME/Accessibility/Makefile config.status: creating impl/Makefile config.status: creating impl/org/Makefile config.status: creating impl/org/GNOME/Makefile config.status: creating impl/org/GNOME/Accessibility/Makefile config.status: creating impl/org/GNOME/Bonobo/Makefile config.status: creating bridge/Makefile config.status: creating bridge/org/Makefile config.status: creating bridge/org/GNOME/Makefile config.status: creating bridge/org/GNOME/Accessibility/Makefile config.status: creating at-client/Makefile config.status: creating at-client/org/Makefile config.status: creating at-client/org/GNOME/Makefile config.status: creating at-client/org/GNOME/Accessibility/Makefile config.status: creating registry/Makefile config.status: creating registry/org/Makefile config.status: creating registry/org/GNOME/Makefile config.status: creating registry/org/GNOME/Accessibility/Makefile config.status: creating test/Makefile [root@titan /usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0]# gmake Making all in idlgen gmake[1]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen' Making all in org gmake[2]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org' Making all in GNOME gmake[3]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME' Making all in Accessibility gmake[4]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Accessibility' gmake[4]: Nothing to be done for `all'. gmake[4]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Accessibility' Making all in Bonobo gmake[4]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Bonobo' gmake[4]: Nothing to be done for `all'. gmake[4]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Bonobo' gmake[4]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME' gmake[4]: Nothing to be done for `all-am'. gmake[4]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME' gmake[3]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME' gmake[3]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org' gmake[3]: Nothing to be done for `all-am'. gmake[3]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org' gmake[2]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org' gmake[2]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen' idlj \ -pkgPrefix Bonobo org.GNOME \ -pkgPrefix Accessibility org.GNOME \ -emitAll -i /usr/local/share/idl/bonobo-activation-2.0 -i /usr/X11R6/share/gnome/idl/at-spi-1.0 -i /usr/local/share/idl/bonobo-2.0 \ -fallTie /usr/X11R6/share/gnome/idl/at-spi-1.0/Accessibility.idl com.sun.tools.corba.se.idl.InvalidArgument: Invalid rgument: -XX:+UseMembar. Compiler Usage: java com.sun.tools.corba.se.idl.toJavaPortable.Compile [options] where is the name of a file containing IDL definitions, and [options] is any combination of the options listed below. The options are optional and may appear in any order; is required and must appear last. Options: -d This is equivalent to the following line in an IDL file: #define -emitAll Emit all types, including those found in #included files. -f Define what bindings to emit. is one of client, server, all, serverTIE, allTIE. serverTIE and allTIE cause delegate model skeletons to be emitted. If this flag is not used, -fclient is assumed. -i By default, the current directory is scanned for included files. This option adds another directory. -keep If a file to be generated already exists, do not overwrite it. By default it is overwritten. -noWarn Suppress warnings. -oldImplBase Generate skeletons compatible with old (pre-1.4) JDK ORBs. -pkgPrefix When the type or module name is encountered at file scope, begin the Java package name for all files generated for with . -pkgTranslate When the type or module name in encountered, replace it with in the generated java package. Note that pkgPrefix changes are made first. must match the full package name exactly. Also, must not be org, org.omg, or any subpackage of org.omg. -skeletonName Name the skeleton according to the pattern. The defaults are: %POA for the POA base class (-fserver or -fall) _%ImplBase for the oldImplBase base class (-oldImplBase and (-fserver or -fall)). -td use for the output directory instead of the current directory. -tieName Name the tie according to the pattern. The defaults are: %POATie for the POA tie (-fserverTie or -fallTie) %_Tie for the oldImplBase tie (-oldImplBase and (-fserverTie or -fallTie)). -v, -verbose Verbose mode. -version Display the version number and quit. gmake[3]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Bonobo' gmake[3]: Nothing to be done for `all'. gmake[3]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Bonobo' gmake[3]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Accessibility' gmake[3]: Nothing to be done for `all'. gmake[3]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Accessibility' touch ../jar-stamp touch ../jar-stamp jar cf ../gnome-java-bridge.jar org/GNOME/Bonobo/*.class org/GNOME/Accessibility/*.class Illegal option: X Usage: jar {ctxu}[vfm0Mi] [jar-file] [manifest-file] [-C dir] files ... Options: -c create new archive -t list table of contents for archive -x extract named (or all) files from archive -u update existing archive -v generate verbose output on standard output -f specify archive file name -m include manifest information from specified manifest file -0 store only; use no ZIP compression -M do not create a manifest file for the entries -i generate index information for the specified jar files -C change to the specified directory and include the following file If any file is a directory then it is processed recursively. The manifest file name and the archive file name needs to be specified in the same order the 'm' and 'f' flags are specified. Example 1: to archive two class files into an archive called classes.jar: jar cvf classes.jar Foo.class Bar.class Example 2: use an existing manifest file 'mymanifest' and archive all the files in the foo/ directory into 'classes.jar': jar cvfm classes.jar mymanifest -C foo/ . gmake[2]: *** [../gnome-java-bridge.jar] Error 1 gmake[2]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen' gmake[1]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1 gmake[1]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen' gmake: *** [all-recursive] Error 1 From henrik@ubuntu.com Sun Jun 11 07:38:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FC053B0641; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 07:38:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07029-08; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 07:38:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17EBD3B0168; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 07:38:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.0.10] (henrik.gotadsl.co.uk [82.133.122.11]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7428339335; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 12:37:30 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <448C007D.9030400@ubuntu.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 12:37:33 +0100 From: Henrik Nilsen Omma User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060522) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Orca screen reader developers References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> <20060610193754.GC21840@alchar.org> <448B6677.2010400@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <448B6677.2010400@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.593 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.006, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.593 X-Spam-Level: Cc: blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, speakup@braille.uwo.ca, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 11:38:41 -0000 Peter Korn wrote: > It has proven very useful to the GNOME accessibility project - and to > advancing the support for assistive technologies and the > implementation of ATK and AT-SPI - to have a screen reader, screen > magnifier, and on-screen keyboard included as a formal part of GNOME. > By 'blessing' AT in these categories, it has brought far greater > awareness of AT to GNOME developers & UNIX distributions, and has led > to a lot of compatibility testing, bug finding, and bug fixing. We have seen the effects of this esp. in the last release cycle when we have now managed to get a range of accessibility tools into the default install and running from the Live CD. Other developers, such as those specialising in the Live CD, the installer and the Gnome desktop have taken an interest and are helping us solve the problems. For our next development cycle we now have several specifications on the main development track (see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Specs) I think custom distributions like Oralux can focus on adding as much assistive technology as possible to a single CD and let the user explore it all. For a main stream distro though, I think we need to make choices about what we consider to be most suitable at this time, and leave the rest as options. Picking favourites is actually an important part of what we do because it allows us to focus our efforts better on providing support and fixes on those packages. - Henrik From William.Walker@Sun.COM Sun Jun 11 19:53:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C98A93B00BC; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 19:53:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09467-02; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 19:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 656553B00B7; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 19:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fe-amer-06.sun.com ([192.18.108.180]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5BNqQ6B020577; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:52:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0P00M01Y1KY900@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from William.Walker@Sun.COM); Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:52:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.1.105] ([68.116.197.173]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0P0097BZN5LTZ1@mail-amer.sun.com>; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:52:26 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 19:52:16 -0400 From: Willie Walker Sender: William.Walker@Sun.COM To: orca-list@gnome.org, gnome-announce-list@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-id: <1150069937.5071.4.camel@localhost> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.587 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.011, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.587 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Announcing Orca 0.2.5 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 23:53:34 -0000 ================ * What is Orca ? ================ Orca is a scriptable screen reader for the GNOME desktop for people with visual impairments. ================== * What's changed ? ================== We've done a lot of work on Orca since the last release in both the new functionality and quality/stability departments. We thank all of our users that are providing feedback on gnome-list@gnome.org (see http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list) as well as http://bugzilla.gnome.org. We value all of your feedback and help. We also appreciate contributions from community members, including Al Puzzuoli who is doing a great job helping with the Orca Wiki at http://live.gnome.org/Orca and Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez who has been testing and providing patches. Thank you all! ================== Orca 0.2.5 Changes ================== * Re-map keyboard bindings and add additional keyboard bindings. See http://live.gnome.org/Orca/KeyboardCommands for the list. * Improvements to StarOffice support to provide better access to text documents and spreadsheets. Also get rid of spurious "0.00" text that was showing up in braille for StarOffice buttons. * Addition of announcing text selection as it is selected and unselected. * Generalize the "read table cell row" functionality. If you press Insert+F11, it will toggle the feature to read the entire row of a table or just the selected table cell when you move from row to row. * Improved support for SayAll of text objects (SayAll for flat review is still on the to do list). * Addition of self-voicing module to tell Orca to be quiet when a self-voicing application is present. * Addition of ability to turn Orca into a speech server that can accessed via simple HTTP commands (default port is 20433, but this is customizable via orca.settings.speechServerPort). This will allow self-voicing applications to use Orca for their speech, thus letting them get the user's speech settings preferences. * Addition of orca.settings.enableBrailleGrouping (default=False). NOTE: this represents a change in the UI for Orca - the behavior to date has been to always group menu items on the braille display. The system responsiveness was bad for large menus, however, so we decided to make this an optional feature turned off by default. * Addition of utility to report information on the currently active script. This is primarily for helping script writers do debugging and is accessed by pressing Insert+F3. * Addition of orca.settings.cacheAccessibles (default=True) as a means to turn the local caching of accessible objects on or off. This is primarily an Orca developer debugging feature. * Fix for bug 344218 - gnome-terminal would not be presented properly if it was started after Orca. * Fix for bug 343666: pressing buttons on braille displays could cause a hang. * Partial fix for bug 342022 - provide some defensive mechanisms to help prevent some hangs. * Fix for bug 343133 - do not hang when doing a flat-review of a man page in gnome-terminal. * Fix for bug #343013 - the command line option strings should not be translatable. * Partial fix for bug 319652 - become a better Python thread citizen to help reduce hangs. * Fix for bug 342303 - stop speech when the user presses the mouse button. * Fix for bug 342122 - use all labels for an objecty when presenting an object. * Fix for bug 342133 - do not read all labels in gnome-window-properties application when it appears. * Fix for bug 341415 - when moving between workspaces with metacity, eliminate redundant output and alsomake sure workspace names are announced. * Refactor of various modules to move script writing utilities into util.py. * More fleshing out of the test plan. ====================== * Where can I get it ? ====================== Source code: http://ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/sources/orca/0.2/orca-0.2.5.tar.gz Enjoy. Will, Mike, Rich, Lynn, and the Orca community From rd@baum.ro Mon Jun 12 04:21:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B89BD3B00EC for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 04:21:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26018-07 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 04:21:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from main.baum.ro (dnt-gw-baum.dnttm.ro [83.103.190.186]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E47273B00D4 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 04:21:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.0.104] ([82.77.32.51]) by main.baum.ro (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5C7d8Yc010617; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 10:39:08 +0300 From: remus draica To: Dave In-Reply-To: <00af01c68d05$29efeba0$0200a8c0@satellite> References: <00af01c68d05$29efeba0$0200a8c0@satellite> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:20:40 -0400 Message-Id: <1150125641.4877.19.camel@ubuntu> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.573 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.854, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_FUTURE_06_12=1.668, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, TW_DL=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -1.573 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: gnopernicus, java, and access bridge on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 08:21:40 -0000 Hi, > checking for java... java > checking JDK version... 1.5.0 > checking for javac... javac > JRE_HOME appears to be /usr/local/bin/jre > checking for idlj... idlj > checking for jar... jar Because you have installed a new java version, is possible to have 2 versions. so, check if all files above are from same distribution, or run ./configure --with-java-home=/path to jdk Regards, Remus From tward1978@earthlink.net Mon Jun 12 15:30:53 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 912973B0100 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:30:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27449-05 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:30:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-gadwall.atl.sa.earthlink.net (pop-gadwall.atl.sa.earthlink.net [207.69.195.61]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB3063B0010 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:30:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dialup-4.224.186.21.dial1.cincinnati1.level3.net ([4.224.186.21]) by pop-gadwall.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1Fps6b-0002fm-00; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:29:45 -0400 Message-ID: <448DC0AE.3030302@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:29:50 -0400 From: Thomas Ward User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave References: <00af01c68d05$29efeba0$0200a8c0@satellite> In-Reply-To: <00af01c68d05$29efeba0$0200a8c0@satellite> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.943 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.456] X-Spam-Score: -0.943 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: gnopernicus, java, and access bridge on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 19:30:53 -0000 Hello, Dave. Gnome has three different areas of access which can be turned on or off depending on the level of accessibility you are aiming for. The first is controled by gconf. When you answer yes to accessibility when gnopernicus first loads the following key is set to true gconftool-2 --set "/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility" --type boolean "True") I haven't tested this lately, but if you type that key in to a standard bash shell prompt it would equal answering yes to the do you want access turned on when gnopernicus starts. The second flag which you can set turns the atk-bridge on for apps such as gaim which won't work without it. To turn the atk-bridge on add this line to the end of your home .bash_profile. export GTK_MODULES=gail:atk-bridge Assuming you have java access bridge installed, which I know you don't at this time, you can create a .orbitrc file in your home directory with gedit, nano, or another favorite text editor and add the following line. ORBIIOPIPv4=1 I'm not sure if you still need this as it has been a while since I did an update on everything, but to work with open office you needed to set SAL_ACCESSIBILITY_ENABLED=1 to get full access to OpenOffice.org. Hope this helps. From lists@digitaldarragh.com Tue Jun 13 04:23:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03BC73B000C for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 04:23:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15398-07 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 04:23:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.webhost.ie (mail.webhost.ie [83.138.8.74]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B51923B000A for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 04:23:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by mail.webhost.ie (Merak 8.3.8) with SMTP id ROJ35911 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:22:11 +0100 Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:22:11 +0100 From: Darragh To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <58fe54a1f8137f5466e7e91769d78df1@digitaldarragh.com> X-Mailer: IceWarp Web Mail 5.6.1 X-Originating-IP: 82.1.217.193 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.62 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.880, BAYES_20=-0.74] X-Spam-Score: -1.62 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Orca or Gnopernicus on a distro like Slax? X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 08:23:12 -0000 Hello all, I know slax uses KDE as its default window manager but do any of you know of another distro that works from a usb drive with the latest version of Gnome that will allow me to install Orca or Gnopernicus? Thanks Darragh Ó Héiligh Web development, O/S and Application technical support. Website: http://www.digitaldarragh.com From enrico@enricozini.org Tue Jun 13 17:50:15 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 104BB3B03CF for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:50:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07729-05 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:50:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agnus.ngi.it (agnus.ngi.it [88.149.128.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 917753B00C4 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:50:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eddie.casa (81-174-12-206.f5.ngi.it [81.174.12.206]) by agnus.ngi.it (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5DLllUw007997; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:47:48 +0200 Received: from eddie.casa (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eddie.casa (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A91230011E; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:47:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from marvin.casa (marvin.casa [192.168.1.2]) by eddie.casa (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F53430011D; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:47:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from enrico by marvin.casa with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1FqGjk-0002Ze-00; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:47:48 +0200 Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:47:47 +0200 From: Enrico Zini To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060613214747.GA4897@marvin.casa> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com References: <20060610092255.GA9803@marvin.casa> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060610092255.GA9803@marvin.casa> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060403 Sender: Enrico Zini X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.446 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.446 X-Spam-Level: Cc: ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Re: Fixing brittle speech support on Dapper X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 21:50:15 -0000 --ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline On Sat, Jun 10, 2006 at 11:22:55AM +0200, Enrico Zini wrote: > - speech doesn't work anymore. test-speech exits with: > Exception Unknown CORBA exception id: 'IDL:omg.org/CORBA/COMM_FAILURE:1.0' getting voice list. I've been waiting but sadly noone answered so far. I tried reinstalling from scratch in another computer, and I can trivially reproduce the speech server lockup there as well: 1) Fresh Ubuntu Dapper, apt-get install festlex-ifd festvox-italp16k festvox-itapc16k (from universe) 2) go to gnopernicus Preferences/Speech/Voices/Modify absolute values 3) choose "Festival GNOME Speech Driver" as a driver, "V2 lp_diphone" as the voice. Apply setting for all voices. 4) close the window. The voice stops. test-speech hangs after selecting the festival server. Please help me to find some clues on fixing this: it took us years to get GPL Festival voices for Italian, and now we could easily turn them into an accessible localised desktop, if it weren't for this. Ciao, Enrico -- GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini --ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEjzKD9LSwzHl+v6sRAuVyAJwI3dqpDwnrS8qq/ABGqUJdsmgJ5gCff+/n q3ZtW+3tVh14q1n0aG0Yv4U= =6lsv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q-- From ermengol@gmail.com Tue Jun 13 19:28:37 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 962923B021A for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 19:28:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09625-09 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 19:28:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.187]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D88D83B01C5 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 19:28:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id y38so1070382nfb for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 16:27:04 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=XgBruegOpLZfMFjVd1bPz7yhVNs2CnoRcO+dGHnDzPiAvdXBFd2k/1e+WEfiVvy0xfFcU9Hv2NP59uG70HF+eibs6v8uIl7c00uqcwS8i1AdUwQxnYqqmuVQR2e9xmGoF7pTOYlpYkfeD0r45ZHY9rsNBDc0CMZCXDZEvXBn9Hg= Received: by 10.49.68.20 with SMTP id v20mr7621nfk; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 16:27:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.48.208.11 with HTTP; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 16:27:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 01:27:04 +0200 From: "Ermengol Bota" To: "Peter Korn" In-Reply-To: <448911DC.4090607@sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <448911DC.4090607@sun.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: gnopernicus-magnifier. Full screen magnifier with dummy driver X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:28:37 -0000 2006/6/9, Peter Korn : > This is a problem with our current magnification architecture. We are > looking forward to magnifiers that are based on several X extensions - > most especially the COMPOSITE extension - which will allow us to avoid > this bit of hackery. Unfortunately we aren't quite ready with those yet. Thanks for all the answers. I know (i just read its web) that Composite does (will do?) more things, not only full screen magnifier, but at least on suse based distro's there is a modifier for xorg that enables to add "virtual resolution". So, you can define the screen resolution (1024x768) and then the virtual resolution 1600x1200 (the resolution for the desktop). This way it works like full screen magnifier. I've done it with SaX2 application (YaST2), but it just adds a new entry " Virtual 1600 1200" on each subsection "Display" of section "Screen" The differences i've seen so far are mainly all the functionalities that gnome-mag can do: change cursor, change the way screen move.... But may be it's an easier way to magnify the screen :-) Thanks for all -- * Ermengol * /*********************************************** * Els ordinadors no resolen problemes, * * simplement executen solucions. * ************************************************/ From themuso@themuso.com Wed Jun 14 09:44:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 189183B00FA; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 09:44:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23247-06; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 09:44:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vscan03.westnet.com.au (vscan03.westnet.com.au [203.10.1.142]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE6883B0133; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 09:44:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70444B60BFC; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 21:43:27 +0800 (WST) Received: from vscan03.westnet.com.au ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (vscan03.westnet.com.au [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04093-05; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 21:43:27 +0800 (WST) Received: from themuso.com (dsl-202-173-132-131.nsw.westnet.com.au [202.173.132.131]) by vscan03.westnet.com.au (Postfix) with SMTP id E0F6AB60BCC; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 21:43:26 +0800 (WST) Received: (nullmailer pid 26322 invoked by uid 1000); Wed, 14 Jun 2006 13:43:40 -0000 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 23:43:40 +1000 To: Gnome Accessibility List , Orca screen reader developers , Ubuntu Accessibility Mailing List Subject: Orca 0.2.5, and LSR 0.2.1 packages available. Message-ID: <20060614134340.GA26307@themuso.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 From: Luke Yelavich X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.415 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.049, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.415 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 13:44:36 -0000 --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all I am happy to announce that packages for both LSR 0.2.1, and orca 0.2.5=20 are available for Ubuntu dapper. To use them, put the following line in=20 your /etc/apt/sources.list file deb http://www.themuso.com/ubuntu/accessibility dapper universe Then run sudo apt-get update, and sudo apt-get install gnome-orca or lsr=20 depending on which package you want. Packages exist for both i386 and powerpc. If people want amd64 packages,=20 if you could possibly give me access to an amd64 box, I would be happy=20 to get them built and make them available. You can also access the source packages, should you want to know how=20 they are built. Add the following line to /etc/apt/sources.list deb-src http://www.themuso.com/ubuntu/accessibility dapper universe Enjoy! --=20 Luke Yelavich GPG key: 0xD06320CE=20 (http://www.themuso.com/themuso-gpg-key.txt) Email & MSN: themuso@themuso.com ICQ: 18444344 Jabber: themuso@jabber.org.au --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEkBKMjVefwtBjIM4RAl8WAJ98WHZSVlRtkZDRTRHmoFHg+xOmoACdFdmN 3VXNeYNIFaN6NUgtvG0epkQ= =bj1o -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o-- From janina@opera.rednote.net Wed Jun 14 12:17:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08CF33B0156; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:17:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28336-10; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:17:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (opera.rednote.net [70.84.142.212]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2375F3B03DA; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:17:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5EGH5iU007764; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 16:17:05 GMT Received: (from janina@localhost) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k5EGH5N6007763; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:17:05 -0400 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:17:05 -0400 From: Janina Sajka To: Willie Walker Subject: Re: Announcing Orca 0.2.5 rpms Message-ID: <20060614161705.GW2259@rednote.net> References: <1150069937.5071.4.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1150069937.5071.4.camel@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Operating-System: Linux opera.rednote.net 2.6.16-1.2122_FC5spksmp Organization: Capital Accessibility LLC (http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com) X-PGP-Key: http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com/JaninaSajka_gpg_key.html X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.569 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.030, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.569 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-announce-list@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, orca-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 16:17:56 -0000 rpm packages of Orca-0.2.5 for Fedora Core 5 are now available from: ftp://SpeakupModified.Org/fedora/rednote/ The binary is under RPMS, and the source under SRPMS as usual with Fedora. Installation There is yet some unresolved dependency issue with these rpms, so they probably will need to be installed using the --nodeps option as follows: rpm -Uv --nodeps orca-0.2.5-1.i386.rpm However, I can attest the resulting installation works for me on two different systems. I have first run: orca -t from the console, as the same user I am in the gui desktop. Once on the desktop, I have issued Alt-F2 and typed: orca -t again to get things started. Seems wrong, but is working for me on two systems. Special Note: You may need to upgrade your Gnome Desktop to Fedora Development. If you find things not working with the current release and updated Gnome environment, try: yum --disablerepo='*' --enablerepo=development groupupdate 'GNOME Desktop Environment' Note the above command is issued on one line, though it's probably been broken into at least two lines in this email message. -- Janina Sajka Phone: +1.240.715.1272 Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC http://CapitalAccessibility.Com Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada--Go to http://ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more. Chair, Accessibility Workgroup Free Standards Group (FSG) janina@freestandards.org http://a11y.org From aaronleventhal@moonset.net Wed Jun 14 11:07:53 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBFD43B0156 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:07:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01652-09 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:07:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.lnh.mail.rcn.net (smtp01.lnh.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 191C33B0120 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:07:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 207-180-148-92.c3-0.arl-ubr2.sbo-arl.ma.cable.rcn.com (HELO [192.168.0.6]) ([207.180.148.92]) by smtp01.lnh.mail.rcn.net with ESMTP; 14 Jun 2006 11:08:29 -0400 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.06,132,1149480000"; d="scan'208"; a="222292815:sNHT26602784" Message-ID: <4490260C.6030606@moonset.net> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:06:52 -0400 From: Aaron Leventhal User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: mozilla.dev.accessibility Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Major rewrite will break trunk temporarily Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 03:15:26 -0400 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 15:07:54 -0000 Work is progressing on https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=340829 This is a major rewrite which will remove nsAccessibleText, nsAcessibleEditableText and nsAccessibleHyperText classes, and move that code into a new cross platform class called nsHyperTextAccessible. Please be informed that when this goes in, it will take about a month for the trunk to stabilize. This does not affect the MOZILLA_1_8 branch which is being used to develop Firefox 2. This rewrite will ultimately find its way into Firefox 3 due out in 2007. When the smoke clears, we will have something very close to this: http://www.mozilla.org/access/unix/new-atk - Aaron From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Wed Jun 21 08:16:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 609D73B0F9B for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:16:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03164-08 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:16:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.186]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80AAF3B0D58 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:16:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id h2so80984nfe for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.34.19 with SMTP id m19mr514346nfj; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.30.13 with HTTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:16:15 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" Sender: skating.tortoise@gmail.com To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, ubuntu-accessibility Subject: Slow keys dialog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Google-Sender-Auth: 7fa2bf341aa83a4f X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.361 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.239, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.361 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:16:18 -0000 I've implemented sticky keys in my onscreen keyboard. When shift is stuck down it causes the slow keys dialogue to appear. Is there a way to suppress this dialog whilst my app is running? thanks -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From bmustillrose@gmail.com Wed Jun 21 08:48:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C35B3B0FF1 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:48:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05586-09 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:48:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.189]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07BC83B0F9B for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:48:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id h2so84606nfe for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:48:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.81.12 with SMTP id i12mr543988nfl; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:48:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.48.42.2 with HTTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:48:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4285e65e0606210548m58845a3el9847e55d8d3f64b5@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:48:41 +0100 From: "ben mustill-rose" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Gnopernicus Not talking on ubuntu 6.06 desktop MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:48:52 -0000 Hi. I installed ubuntu 6.06 desktop on a laptop some time ago and with that i downloaded speech since i'm blind. The thing is, half the time when i log in, it doesn't talk. To fix this, i will have to restart the computer again and again. There doesn't seem to be any patton regarding how many times i have to restart, which is kinda annoying. When it does start talking, its to slow, is there a hotkey to change the speech? And lastly, is there anything that i should kno if i am moving from hal to gnopernicus? Any help would be great, i'm new to linux so i dunno if i gave all the right info, but if not, just ask. KR, BEN. From javier@tiflolinux.org Wed Jun 21 14:16:58 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD2ED3B009F for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:16:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27974-05 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:16:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tiflolinux.org (unknown [82.158.40.139]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 191AA3B0095 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:16:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (uid 503) by tiflolinux.org with local; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 20:29:33 +0200 id 0009B56D.4499900D.00000432 Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 20:29:33 +0200 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Fco=2E_Javier_Dorado_Mart=EDnez?=" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Gnopernicus Not talking on ubuntu 6.06 desktop] Message-ID: <20060621182933.GB30626@tiflolinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Operating-System: Linux tiflolinux.org 2.4.20-8 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.603 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.051, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_NJABL_DUL=1.946] X-Spam-Score: -0.603 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 18:16:58 -0000 ----- Forwarded message from "Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez" ----- Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 20:27:51 +0200 From: "Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez" To: ben mustill-rose Subject: Re: Gnopernicus Not talking on ubuntu 6.06 desktop User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i Hi all Ben, the problem with Gnopernicus not speaking at startup is a question of the sound system, not availability on sound system when Gnopernicus start, so speech is disabled. You can quit gnopernicus by presing alt + q and then restaring it again by pressing alt + f2 and then typing gnopernicus plus enter key. I don't know Hal, so I can give you ore detail about differents. You can change speech settings by pressing 0 + 8 in the numeric keypad, so you can hear "layer 8" and then use 4 and 6 numeric keypad to decrease/increase speech rate, 7 and 9 for volume and 1 or 3 for pitch. All the functionality of Gnopernicus screen reader is based on the numeric keypad, and based in layers. So you have 10 layers with differents functions. Press 00 for layer 0, 01 for layer 1 and so. Hope this help Regards, Javier. On Wed, Jun 21, 2006 at 01:48:41PM +0100, ben mustill-rose wrote: > Hi. > > I installed ubuntu 6.06 desktop on a laptop some time ago and with > that i downloaded speech since i'm blind. > The thing is, half the time when i log in, it doesn't talk. To fix > this, i will have to restart the computer again and again. > There doesn't seem to be any patton regarding how many times i have to > restart, which is kinda annoying. > When it does start talking, its to slow, is there a hotkey to change the speech? > And lastly, is there anything that i should kno if i am moving from > hal to gnopernicus? > Any help would be great, i'm new to linux so i dunno if i gave all the > right info, but if not, just ask. > KR, BEN. > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list -- Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez mailto:javier@tiflolinux.org ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez mailto:javier@tiflolinux.org From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Fri Jun 23 10:54:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22CE23B087B for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 10:54:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18849-01 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 10:54:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.187]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B02B03B08E6 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 10:54:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id h2so91379nfe for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 07:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.4.17 with SMTP id g17mr2514299nfi; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 07:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.30.13 with HTTP; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 07:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 15:54:14 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" Sender: skating.tortoise@gmail.com To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, ubuntu-accessibility Subject: Re: Slow keys dialog In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: X-Google-Sender-Auth: f682d046db45120e X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.446 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.154, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.446 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 14:54:18 -0000 I've implemented sticky keys in my onscreen keyboard. When shift is stuck down it causes the slow keys dialogue to appear. Is there a way to suppress this dialog whilst my app is running? thanks -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Fri Jun 23 11:07:43 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4C2D3B0321 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 11:07:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19442-07 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 11:07:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.185]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B36483B08E6 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 11:07:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id h2so93351nfe for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 08:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.4.17 with SMTP id g17mr2523841nfi; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 08:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.30.13 with HTTP; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 08:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 16:07:39 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, ubuntu-accessibility Subject: Re: Slow keys dialog In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 15:07:43 -0000 I've implemented sticky keys in my onscreen keyboard. When shift is stuck down it causes the slow keys dialogue to appear. Is there a way to suppress this dialog whilst my app is running? thanks -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From enrico@enricozini.org Sat Jun 24 07:13:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F0053B02C1; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 07:13:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09160-07; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 07:13:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from maya.ngi.it (maya.ngi.it [88.149.128.3]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45FC13B006E; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 07:13:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (81-174-12-206.f5.ngi.it [81.174.12.206]) by maya.ngi.it (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5OBDf7s005708; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 13:13:41 +0200 Received: from enrico by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1Fu64i-0006Mo-Ds; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 12:13:16 +0100 Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 12:13:16 +0100 From: Enrico Zini To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org Subject: Fixing gnome-speech Message-ID: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ibTvN161/egqYuK8" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060403 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.014, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 11:13:47 -0000 --ibTvN161/egqYuK8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, I'm trying to look more into the problems I'm having with the speech support on Dapper (see my mail with subject "Fixing brittle speech support on Dapper" from June, 10th, which strangely isn't showing up in the archives at http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-accessibility-list/200= 6-June/thread.html). I started reading through gnome-speech source code. I noticed that it runs festival as a server and talks to it. This makes us have a screen reader that talks CORBA to a server that talks TCP/IP to another server who then does the synthesis. That's too many passages in which something can go wrong. Instinctively, I'm considering rewriting the festival driver to using the C API rather than the festival server. The C API of Festival is just as simple as this: http://rafb.net/paste/results/I7trk068.html I'll look into it a bit more, writing some test code to talk to the CORBA festival driver as well as test code for the festival C/C++ API, so that I can gain familiarity with both things. Any reasons why this hasn't been done yet? In the meantime, however, before I hurt my brain too much with this, what's the overall situation? Is it worth the effort of fixing gnome-speech, or is the effort better spend on making something else work? I'm already quite frustrated of not getting any sort of answer on the list for this problem that is getting me totally stuck (and thank Luke Yelavich for mora support on IRC), and I don't know how I would cope if I spent time and effort on this just to hear as soon as I've finished that everyone's moving to speech-dispatcher or some other kind of a totally different technology. If it's not worth spending efforts on gnome-speech, please let me know what I can use to replace it, since it doesn't work for me. Ciao, Enrico --=20 GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini --ibTvN161/egqYuK8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEnR5M9LSwzHl+v6sRAvfXAJ96YsbY8wqms77UDb9GCEEkTBctXgCdHWgz kdeLwfWldHDFD8gNgZRK8LU= =0xvb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ibTvN161/egqYuK8-- From javier@tiflolinux.org Sat Jun 24 16:21:09 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E13E43B00A5 for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 16:21:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01623-02 for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 16:21:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tiflolinux.org (unknown [82.158.40.139]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FC433B006E for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 16:21:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (uid 503) by tiflolinux.org with local; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 22:32:16 +0200 id 0004BEAB.449DA150.0000373E Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 22:32:16 +0200 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Fco=2E_Javier_Dorado_Mart=EDnez?=" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Gnopernicus Not talking on ubuntu 6.06 desktop]] Message-ID: <20060624203216.GB14113@tiflolinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Operating-System: Linux tiflolinux.org 2.4.20-8 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.608 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.045, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_NJABL_DUL=1.946] X-Spam-Score: -0.608 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 20:21:09 -0000 ----- Forwarded message from "Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez" ----- Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 22:30:11 +0200 From: "Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez" To: ben mustill-rose Subject: Re: Gnopernicus Not talking on ubuntu 6.06 desktop] User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i Hi all To avoid gnome-panel crashes first open a terminal by running gnome-terminal at the run dialog (alt + f2). Then type gnopernicus& Then no problems with the panel. Regards, Javier. On Sat, Jun 24, 2006 at 08:39:31PM +0100, ben mustill-rose wrote: > Hi all and sorry for not replying sooner. > > I tried the thing where you type gnopernicus into the run type box, > and that does make it talk, but only to say that there is a error with > gnome panel. > I clicked inform developers, but i dunno if it did it, because it > stopped talking. > It also stops talking when i click restart program or close. > I am doing a re install of ubuntu atm, so i'll see if this fixes it. > Thanks for the explanation about the way that the layers work and your > suggestion about the problem; i don't think it would have anything to > do with the sound system as it makes the startup& login sounds > everytime regardless of whether it talks or not. > Thanks, > > BEN. > > On 21/06/06, Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez wrote: > >----- Forwarded message from "Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez" > > ----- > > > >Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 20:27:51 +0200 > >From: "Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez" > >To: ben mustill-rose > >Subject: Re: Gnopernicus Not talking on ubuntu 6.06 desktop > >User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i > > > >Hi all > > > >Ben, the problem with Gnopernicus not speaking at startup is a question of > >the sound system, not availability on sound system when Gnopernicus start, > >so speech is disabled. > >You can quit gnopernicus by presing alt + q and then restaring it again by > >pressing alt + f2 and then typing gnopernicus plus enter key. > > > >I don't know Hal, so I can give you ore detail about differents. You can > >change speech settings by pressing 0 + 8 in the numeric keypad, so you can > >hear "layer 8" and then use 4 and 6 numeric keypad to decrease/increase > >speech rate, 7 and 9 for volume and 1 or 3 for pitch. > >All the functionality of Gnopernicus screen reader is based on the numeric > >keypad, and based in layers. So you have 10 layers with differents > >functions. Press 00 for layer 0, 01 for layer 1 and so. > > > >Hope this help > > > >Regards, > > > >Javier. > >On Wed, Jun 21, 2006 at 01:48:41PM +0100, ben mustill-rose wrote: > >> Hi. > >> > >> I installed ubuntu 6.06 desktop on a laptop some time ago and with > >> that i downloaded speech since i'm blind. > >> The thing is, half the time when i log in, it doesn't talk. To fix > >> this, i will have to restart the computer again and again. > >> There doesn't seem to be any patton regarding how many times i have to > >> restart, which is kinda annoying. > >> When it does start talking, its to slow, is there a hotkey to change the > >speech? > >> And lastly, is there anything that i should kno if i am moving from > >> hal to gnopernicus? > >> Any help would be great, i'm new to linux so i dunno if i gave all the > >> right info, but if not, just ask. > >> KR, BEN. > >> _______________________________________________ > >> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > >> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > >-- > >Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez > >mailto:javier@tiflolinux.org > > > >----- End forwarded message ----- > > > >-- > >Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez > >mailto:javier@tiflolinux.org > >_______________________________________________ > >gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > >gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > >http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > -- Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez mailto:javier@tiflolinux.org ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez mailto:javier@tiflolinux.org From ashutoshsharma@gmail.com Mon Jun 26 03:19:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECE8A3B00FA for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 03:19:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29011-07 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 03:19:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.182]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 181A23B0174 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 03:19:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id i49so1476020pyi for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 00:19:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.88.18 with SMTP id q18mr5652864pyl; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 00:19:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.41.6 with HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 00:19:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <79693c1a0606260019j408974efg8d1b36465a6b56cb@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:49:27 +0530 From: "Ashu Sharma" To: kde-accessibility@kde.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Use of gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' on KDE ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2506_29911772.1151306367960" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.399 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.399 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 07:19:34 -0000 ------=_Part_2506_29911772.1151306367960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi, There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather than putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI (to avoid dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear as to what was finally decided. On a related note, is the gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE too, to set or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a system? Or, is it used only on GNOME? Thanks, Ashutosh ------=_Part_2506_29911772.1151306367960 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
Hi,
 
There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather than putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI (to avoid dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear as to what was finally decided.
 
On a related note, is the gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE too, to set or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a system? Or, is it used only on GNOME?
 
Thanks,
Ashutosh
------=_Part_2506_29911772.1151306367960-- From cerha@brailcom.org Mon Jun 26 05:14:08 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEB423B0124 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:14:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04293-07 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:14:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gate.brailcom.cz (158-84-244-84.strcechy.adsl-llu.static.bluetone.cz [84.244.84.158]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B77673B01A8 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:14:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 11545 invoked from network); 26 Jun 2006 10:52:49 +0200 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.15.2?) (192.168.15.2) by ns.brailcom.xx with SMTP; 26 Jun 2006 10:52:49 +0200 Message-ID: <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:14:01 +0200 From: Tomas Cerha Organization: Brailcom, o.p.s. User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> In-Reply-To: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.483 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.878, BAYES_20=-0.74, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -1.483 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 09:14:09 -0000 Enrico Zini wrote: > Hello, > In the meantime, however, before I hurt my brain too much with this, > what's the overall situation? Is it worth the effort of fixing > gnome-speech, or is the effort better spend on making something else > work? Hi Enrico, I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, this may be essential for some people and the Orca -> Gnome Speech -> Speech Dispatcher -> synthesizer aproach has inherent problems. This might solve your problem too. Please, see also the common "TTS API" draft at http://www.freebsoft.org/tts-api. This is a common effort of Free Desktop and FSG. Best regards, Tomas -- Brailcom, o.p.s. http://www.brailcom.org Free(b)soft project http://www.freebsoft.org Eurochance project http://eurochance.brailcom.org From themuso@themuso.com Mon Jun 26 05:17:21 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 622303B0199 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:17:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04696-01 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:17:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vscan02.westnet.com.au (vscan02.westnet.com.au [203.10.1.132]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BF373B009A for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:17:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB27411DE38 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:17:17 +0800 (WST) Received: from vscan02.westnet.com.au ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (vscan02.westnet.com.au [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08941-12 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:17:17 +0800 (WST) Received: from themuso.com (dsl-202-173-132-131.nsw.westnet.com.au [202.173.132.131]) by vscan02.westnet.com.au (Postfix) with SMTP id 903AA11DE2D for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:17:17 +0800 (WST) Received: (nullmailer pid 16386 invoked by uid 1000); Mon, 26 Jun 2006 09:17:22 -0000 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 19:17:22 +1000 From: Luke Yelavich To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech Message-ID: <20060626091722.GA16369@themuso.com> References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="0F1p//8PRICkK4MW" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.42 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.044, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.42 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 09:17:21 -0000 --0F1p//8PRICkK4MW Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jun 26, 2006 at 07:14:01PM EST, Tomas Cerha wrote: > Hi Enrico, >=20 > I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This > bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher > offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, Mind I ask when this is likely to be completed? We in the Ubuntu=20 accessibility team are intending to switch to orca as the primary screen=20 reader for Ubuntu, and would like to replace gnome-speech with=20 speech-dispatcher as the back-end of choice for speech output, due to a=20 few other things we have in the pipeline. If you would like testers, I would be happy to put my hand up and try. Thanks in advance. --=20 Luke Yelavich GPG key: 0xD06320CE=20 (http://www.themuso.com/themuso-gpg-key.txt) Email & MSN: themuso@themuso.com ICQ: 18444344 Jabber: themuso@jabber.org.au --0F1p//8PRICkK4MW Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEn6YijVefwtBjIM4RAohUAJ9bFCUPjukVXuVxUuLc520zyq0wlwCgwrt9 hmTb/aJktGYao3cCYYeBSVs= =oGv9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0F1p//8PRICkK4MW-- From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 06:10:08 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 733133B009A for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 06:10:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08484-07 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 06:10:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDDAD3B002A for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 06:10:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5QA9xFH003901 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 04:10:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1G00301PGS57@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:09:59 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-202.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.202]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1G00ISBPKN45@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:09:59 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:11:10 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [Kde-accessibility] Use of gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' on KDE ? In-reply-to: <79693c1a0606260019j408974efg8d1b36465a6b56cb@mail.gmail.com> To: Ashu Sharma Message-id: <1151316670.7079.6.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <79693c1a0606260019j408974efg8d1b36465a6b56cb@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.576 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.022, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.576 X-Spam-Level: Cc: kde-accessibility@kde.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:10:08 -0000 On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:19, Ashu Sharma wrote: > Hi, > > There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather than > putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI (to avoid > dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear as to what > was finally decided. If KDE writes to ATK, it makes the job easier in a number of ways (at the cost of introducing a glib dependency, but hiding other gnome-ish dependencies). However, the AT-SPI layer requires CORBA in order to function, so in order to actually expose useful information to our assistive technologies, an application must LD_PRELOAD the "atk-bridge" module which bridges from ATK to AT-SPI's CORBA IPC. I think this is the most effective thing to do for the time being (preload atk-bridge), since it doesn't introduce a CORBA dependency on the KDE apps (only a soft runtime dependency). The AT-SPI assistive technology clients cannot work without the AT-SPI/ORBit2/etc. libraries being present on the system anyhow, so from a practical perspective this is the minimum current dependency situation. There's another environment variable you can look for if you don't want to use gconf; GTK_MODULES. Of course that's still quite a gnome/gtk+-ish variable and arguably not appropriate to KDE anyhow, so it might be cleaner just to spawn a gconf-client executable and parse the output, in order to detect whether assistive technology support is desired or not. Also, soon there will be a slightly different mechanism for detecting the presence of the AT-SPI registry - it will place an IOR as an Xatom on the root DISPLAY window. This means you can find it without using bonobo-activation. regards Bill > > On a related note, is the gconf > key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE too, to set > or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a system? Or, is > it used only on GNOME? > > Thanks, > Ashutosh > > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > kde-accessibility mailing list > kde-accessibility@kde.org > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility From ashutoshsharma@gmail.com Mon Jun 26 08:30:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDB6F3B0175 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:30:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17354-05 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:30:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.178]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 282313B0279 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:30:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id i49so1548987pyi for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:30:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.51.13 with SMTP id d13mr5906514pyk; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:30:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.41.6 with HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:30:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <79693c1a0606260530x71d11d9dic7cfd6bb6974a1ad@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:00:08 +0530 From: "Ashu Sharma" To: "Bill Haneman" Subject: Re: [Kde-accessibility] Use of gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' on KDE ? In-Reply-To: <1151316670.7079.6.camel@linux.site> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_5856_6313645.1151325008992" References: <79693c1a0606260019j408974efg8d1b36465a6b56cb@mail.gmail.com> <1151316670.7079.6.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.487 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.088, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.487 X-Spam-Level: Cc: kde-accessibility@kde.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:30:13 -0000 ------=_Part_5856_6313645.1151325008992 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 6/26/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:19, Ashu Sharma wrote: > > Hi, > > > > There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather than > > putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI (to avoid > > dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear as to what > > was finally decided. > > If KDE writes to ATK, it makes the job easier in a number of ways (at > the cost of introducing a glib dependency, but hiding other gnome-ish > dependencies). However, the AT-SPI layer requires CORBA in order to > function, so in order to actually expose useful information to our > assistive technologies, an application must LD_PRELOAD the "atk-bridge" > module which bridges from ATK to AT-SPI's CORBA IPC. > > I think this is the most effective thing to do for the time being > (preload atk-bridge), since it doesn't introduce a CORBA dependency on > the KDE apps (only a soft runtime dependency). The AT-SPI assistive > technology clients cannot work without the AT-SPI/ORBit2/etc. libraries > being present on the system anyhow, so from a practical perspective this > is the minimum current dependency situation. > > There's another environment variable you can look for if you don't want > to use gconf; GTK_MODULES. Of course that's still quite a > gnome/gtk+-ish variable and arguably not appropriate to KDE anyhow, so > it might be cleaner just to spawn a gconf-client executable and parse > the output, in order to detect whether assistive technology support is > desired or not. Also, soon there will be a slightly different mechanism > for detecting the presence of the AT-SPI registry - it will place an IOR > as an Xatom on the root DISPLAY window. This means you can find it > without using bonobo-activation. > > regards > > Bill > > > > > On a related note, is the gconf > > key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE too, to set > > or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a system? Or, is > > it used only on GNOME? > > > > Thanks, > > Ashutosh > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > kde-accessibility mailing list > > kde-accessibility@kde.org > > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility > > Bill, Thanks for these details. I am actually wondering about the current state of KDE accessibility - whether AT clients under KDE currently depend on gnome/gconf libraries (especially if they use the gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' to enable AT support). Thanks, Ashutosh ------=_Part_5856_6313645.1151325008992 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 6/26/06, Bill Haneman <Bill.Haneman@sun.com> wrote:
On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:19, Ashu Sharma wrote:
> Hi,
>
> There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather than
> putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI (to avoid
> dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear as to what
> was finally decided.

If KDE writes to ATK, it makes the job easier in a number of ways (at
the cost of introducing a glib dependency, but hiding other gnome-ish
dependencies).  However, the AT-SPI layer requires CORBA in order to
function, so in order to actually expose useful information to our
assistive technologies, an application must LD_PRELOAD the "atk-bridge"
module which bridges from ATK to AT-SPI's CORBA IPC.

I think this is the most effective thing to do for the time being
(preload atk-bridge), since it doesn't introduce a CORBA dependency on
the KDE apps (only a soft runtime dependency).  The AT-SPI assistive
technology clients cannot work without the AT-SPI/ORBit2/etc. libraries
being present on the system anyhow, so from a practical perspective this
is the minimum current dependency situation.

There's another environment variable you can look for if you don't want
to use gconf; GTK_MODULES.  Of course that's still quite a
gnome/gtk+-ish variable and arguably not appropriate to KDE anyhow, so
it might be cleaner just to spawn a gconf-client executable and parse
the output, in order to detect whether assistive technology support is
desired or not.  Also, soon there will be a slightly different mechanism
for detecting the presence of the AT-SPI registry - it will place an IOR
as an Xatom on the root DISPLAY window.  This means you can find it
without using bonobo-activation.

regards

Bill

>
> On a related note, is the gconf
> key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE too, to set
> or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a system? Or, is
> it used only on GNOME?
>
> Thanks,
> Ashutosh
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> kde-accessibility mailing list
> kde-accessibility@kde.org
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility



Bill,
Thanks for these details.
I am actually wondering about the current state of KDE accessibility - whether AT clients under KDE currently depend on gnome/gconf libraries (especially if they use the gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' to enable AT support) .
Thanks,
Ashutosh
------=_Part_5856_6313645.1151325008992-- From enrico@enricozini.org Mon Jun 26 08:44:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCDA03B0387; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:44:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18426-01; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:44:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from maya.ngi.it (maya.ngi.it [88.149.128.3]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87FC23B02F7; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:44:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (81-174-12-206.f5.ngi.it [81.174.12.206]) by maya.ngi.it (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5QCihKc011937; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:44:43 +0200 Received: from enrico by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FuqNo-0003eT-1a; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:40:04 +0100 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:40:03 +0100 From: Enrico Zini To: Tomas Cerha Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech Message-ID: <20060626124003.GA13572@viaza> Mail-Followup-To: Tomas Cerha , gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060403 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.456 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.008, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.456 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:44:48 -0000 --NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jun 26, 2006 at 11:14:01AM +0200, Tomas Cerha wrote: > I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This > bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher > offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, this > may be essential for some people and the Orca -> Gnome Speech -> Speech > Dispatcher -> synthesizer aproach has inherent problems. This might > solve your problem too. >=20 > Please, see also the common "TTS API" draft at > http://www.freebsoft.org/tts-api. This is a common effort of Free > Desktop and FSG. Cool. Is there a way I can use all of this right now on Dapper? Ciao, Enrico --=20 GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini --NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEn9Wj9LSwzHl+v6sRAofUAJ9rGqFPNo5F+9EKH1UOKSt32EG0nwCfZZUp 64toiGSrN/swh06OHchQyCY= =hVic -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh-- From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 10:48:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA3BA3B046B for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:48:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25602-07 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:48:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 398A83B0379 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:48:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5QEmdiJ024863 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:48:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1H008012BMA0@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:48:39 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-202.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.202]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1H008072H345@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:48:39 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:49:51 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com Message-id: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.577 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.577 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:48:49 -0000 Hi Chris: The answer is, "don't implement sticky keys in your keyboard". You should be using the system-wide StickyKeys settings and feature instead (as GOK does). Interfering with the normal operation of the system wide setting (i.e clashing with it as your app does), is itself an accessibility violation. (There are several gconf keys you can use to turn sticky keys on and off - see those under /desktop/gnome/accessibility/keyboard) Bill > I've implemented sticky keys in my onscreen keyboard. When shift is > stuck down it causes the slow keys dialogue to appear. Is there a way > to suppress this dialog whilst my app is running? > > thanks > > > -- > Chris Jones From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 11:21:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83D7D3B0135 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:21:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27817-09 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:21:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A48F3B02BF for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:21:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5QFLalF005098 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 09:21:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1H005013V76K@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:21:36 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-202.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.202]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1H008O33ZZ45@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:21:36 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:22:47 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [Kde-accessibility] Use of gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' on KDE ? In-reply-to: <79693c1a0606260530x71d11d9dic7cfd6bb6974a1ad@mail.gmail.com> To: Ashu Sharma Message-id: <1151335367.7079.40.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <79693c1a0606260019j408974efg8d1b36465a6b56cb@mail.gmail.com> <1151316670.7079.6.camel@linux.site> <79693c1a0606260530x71d11d9dic7cfd6bb6974a1ad@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.577 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.577 X-Spam-Level: Cc: kde-accessibility@kde.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:21:46 -0000 Hi Ashu: Currently the state of KDE accessibility is somewhat limited. Other than some important theming and keyboard-navigation support, which does not require a complex interface such as AT-SPI, there are only a few useful utilities like KMag, KMouth, and KMousetool. While these are nice utilities, they aren't enough to allow users who cannot use a keyboard at all, or who are blind or have very limited vision, to use KDE. We have three working screen readers (for blind users) for the free desktop now; gnopernicus, orca, and LSR. For users who cannot use a keyboard, we have GOK and Dasher. All of these technologies require the full power of the AT-SPI interfaces, and thus require the ORBit2 CORBA stack in order to work. The gconf key you mention is for determining whether support for such full-features assistive technologies should be enabled or not. When KDE/Qt applications provide full-featured accessibility services, as is planned for Qt4, then those services can be bridged to AT-SPI, making those applications available to screen readers and other sorts of "user interface adapting" assistive technologies. While it would be possible to write a "KDE" screen reader or KDE onscreen keyboard for severely disable users (for instance users who cannot even 'point and click' reliably), I don't think it would be the best use of our resources. Technologies like Orca are intended to work with AT-SPI-enabled KDE apps just as they work with applications like OpenOffice, Java apps, Firefox, and other applications today, not just "gnome". By writing Orca scripts for popular KDE applications, the KDE desktop, and by fixing the inevitable bugs in KDE's keyboard navigation and accessibility support, a modest amount of development effort can go further to benefit disabled users. best regards Bill On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 13:30, Ashu Sharma wrote: > On 6/26/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:19, Ashu Sharma wrote: > > Hi, > > > > There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather > than > > putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI > (to avoid > > dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear > as to what > > was finally decided. > > If KDE writes to ATK, it makes the job easier in a number of > ways (at > the cost of introducing a glib dependency, but hiding other > gnome-ish > dependencies). However, the AT-SPI layer requires CORBA in > order to > function, so in order to actually expose useful information to > our > assistive technologies, an application must LD_PRELOAD the > "atk-bridge" > module which bridges from ATK to AT-SPI's CORBA IPC. > > I think this is the most effective thing to do for the time > being > (preload atk-bridge), since it doesn't introduce a CORBA > dependency on > the KDE apps (only a soft runtime dependency). The AT-SPI > assistive > technology clients cannot work without the AT-SPI/ORBit2/etc. > libraries > being present on the system anyhow, so from a practical > perspective this > is the minimum current dependency situation. > > There's another environment variable you can look for if you > don't want > to use gconf; GTK_MODULES. Of course that's still quite a > gnome/gtk+-ish variable and arguably not appropriate to KDE > anyhow, so > it might be cleaner just to spawn a gconf-client executable > and parse > the output, in order to detect whether assistive technology > support is > desired or not. Also, soon there will be a slightly different > mechanism > for detecting the presence of the AT-SPI registry - it will > place an IOR > as an Xatom on the root DISPLAY window. This means you can > find it > without using bonobo-activation. > > regards > > Bill > > > > > On a related note, is the gconf > > key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE > too, to set > > or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a > system? Or, is > > it used only on GNOME? > > > > Thanks, > > Ashutosh > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > kde-accessibility mailing list > > kde-accessibility@kde.org > > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility > > > > Bill, > Thanks for these details. > I am actually wondering about the current state of KDE accessibility - > whether AT clients under KDE currently depend on gnome/gconf libraries > (especially if they use the gconf key > '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' to enable AT support) . > Thanks, > Ashutosh > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > kde-accessibility mailing list > kde-accessibility@kde.org > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility From ashutoshsharma@gmail.com Mon Jun 26 11:43:04 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 801FA3B03F3 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:43:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29596-02 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:43:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.179]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74DD33B03BC for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:43:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id d42so1560606pyd for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.60.16 with SMTP id n16mr4625437pyk; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.41.6 with HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <79693c1a0606260843s8c12ba3v75e72b38a712f3c1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:13:00 +0530 From: "Ashu Sharma" To: "Bill Haneman" Subject: Re: [Kde-accessibility] Use of gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' on KDE ? In-Reply-To: <1151335367.7079.40.camel@linux.site> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_217_32816475.1151336580471" References: <79693c1a0606260019j408974efg8d1b36465a6b56cb@mail.gmail.com> <1151316670.7079.6.camel@linux.site> <79693c1a0606260530x71d11d9dic7cfd6bb6974a1ad@mail.gmail.com> <1151335367.7079.40.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.239 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.336, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, HTML_40_50=0.496, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.239 X-Spam-Level: Cc: kde-accessibility@kde.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:43:04 -0000 ------=_Part_217_32816475.1151336580471 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 6/26/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > Hi Ashu: > > Currently the state of KDE accessibility is somewhat limited. Other > than some important theming and keyboard-navigation support, which does > not require a complex interface such as AT-SPI, there are only a few > useful utilities like KMag, KMouth, and KMousetool. While these are > nice utilities, they aren't enough to allow users who cannot use a > keyboard at all, or who are blind or have very limited vision, to use > KDE. > > We have three working screen readers (for blind users) for the free > desktop now; gnopernicus, orca, and LSR. For users who cannot use a > keyboard, we have GOK and Dasher. All of these technologies require the > full power of the AT-SPI interfaces, and thus require the ORBit2 CORBA > stack in order to work. The gconf key you mention is for determining > whether support for such full-features assistive technologies should be > enabled or not. > > When KDE/Qt applications provide full-featured accessibility services, > as is planned for Qt4, then those services can be bridged to AT-SPI, > making those applications available to screen readers and other sorts of > "user interface adapting" assistive technologies. > > While it would be possible to write a "KDE" screen reader or KDE > onscreen keyboard for severely disable users (for instance users who > cannot even 'point and click' reliably), I don't think it would be the > best use of our resources. Technologies like Orca are intended to work > with AT-SPI-enabled KDE apps just as they work with applications like > OpenOffice, Java apps, Firefox, and other applications today, not just > "gnome". By writing Orca scripts for popular KDE applications, the KDE > desktop, and by fixing the inevitable bugs in KDE's keyboard navigation > and accessibility support, a modest amount of development effort can go > further to benefit disabled users. > > best regards > > Bill > > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 13:30, Ashu Sharma wrote: > > On 6/26/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:19, Ashu Sharma wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather > > than > > > putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI > > (to avoid > > > dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear > > as to what > > > was finally decided. > > > > If KDE writes to ATK, it makes the job easier in a number of > > ways (at > > the cost of introducing a glib dependency, but hiding other > > gnome-ish > > dependencies). However, the AT-SPI layer requires CORBA in > > order to > > function, so in order to actually expose useful information to > > our > > assistive technologies, an application must LD_PRELOAD the > > "atk-bridge" > > module which bridges from ATK to AT-SPI's CORBA IPC. > > > > I think this is the most effective thing to do for the time > > being > > (preload atk-bridge), since it doesn't introduce a CORBA > > dependency on > > the KDE apps (only a soft runtime dependency). The AT-SPI > > assistive > > technology clients cannot work without the AT-SPI/ORBit2/etc. > > libraries > > being present on the system anyhow, so from a practical > > perspective this > > is the minimum current dependency situation. > > > > There's another environment variable you can look for if you > > don't want > > to use gconf; GTK_MODULES. Of course that's still quite a > > gnome/gtk+-ish variable and arguably not appropriate to KDE > > anyhow, so > > it might be cleaner just to spawn a gconf-client executable > > and parse > > the output, in order to detect whether assistive technology > > support is > > desired or not. Also, soon there will be a slightly different > > mechanism > > for detecting the presence of the AT-SPI registry - it will > > place an IOR > > as an Xatom on the root DISPLAY window. This means you can > > find it > > without using bonobo-activation. > > > > regards > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > On a related note, is the gconf > > > key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE > > too, to set > > > or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a > > system? Or, is > > > it used only on GNOME? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Ashutosh > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > kde-accessibility mailing list > > > kde-accessibility@kde.org > > > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility > > > > > > > > Bill, > > Thanks for these details. > > I am actually wondering about the current state of KDE accessibility - > > whether AT clients under KDE currently depend on gnome/gconf libraries > > (especially if they use the gconf key > > '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' to enable AT support) . > > Thanks, > > Ashutosh > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > kde-accessibility mailing list > > kde-accessibility@kde.org > > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility > > Hi Bill, These details are really useful. Thanks! I suppose things will get much better on KDE after Qt4 or with more application specific Orca scripts. Thanks, Ashu ------=_Part_217_32816475.1151336580471 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
On 6/26/06, Bill Haneman <Bill.Haneman@sun.com> wrote:
Hi Ashu:

Currently the state of KDE accessibility is somewhat limited.  Other
than some important theming and keyboard-navigation support, which does
not require a complex interface such as AT-SPI, there are only a few
useful utilities like KMag, KMouth, and KMousetool.  While these are
nice utilities, they aren't enough to allow users who cannot use a
keyboard at all, or who are blind or have very limited vision, to use
KDE.

We have three working screen readers (for blind users) for the free
desktop now; gnopernicus, orca, and LSR.  For users who cannot use a
keyboard, we have GOK and Dasher.  All of these technologies require the
full power of the AT-SPI interfaces, and thus require the ORBit2 CORBA
stack in order to work.  The gconf key you mention is for determining
whether support for such full-features assistive technologies should be
enabled or not.

When KDE/Qt applications provide full-featured accessibility services,
as is planned for Qt4, then those services can be bridged to AT-SPI,
making those applications available to screen readers and other sorts of
"user interface adapting" assistive technologies.

While it would be possible to write a "KDE" screen reader or KDE
onscreen keyboard for severely disable users (for instance users who
cannot even 'point and click' reliably), I don't think it would be the
best use of our resources.  Technologies like Orca are intended to work
with AT-SPI-enabled KDE apps just as they work with applications like
OpenOffice, Java apps, Firefox, and other applications today, not just
"gnome".  By writing Orca scripts for popular KDE applications, the KDE
desktop, and by fixing the inevitable bugs in KDE's keyboard navigation
and accessibility support, a modest amount of development effort can go
further to benefit disabled users.

best regards

Bill

On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 13:30, Ashu Sharma wrote:
> On 6/26/06, Bill Haneman < Bill.Haneman@sun.com> wrote:
>         On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:19, Ashu Sharma wrote:
>         > Hi,
>         >
>         > There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather
>         than
>         > putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI
>         (to avoid
>         > dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear
>         as to what
>         > was finally decided.
>
>         If KDE writes to ATK, it makes the job easier in a number of
>         ways (at
>         the cost of introducing a glib dependency, but hiding other
>         gnome-ish
>         dependencies).  However, the AT-SPI layer requires CORBA in
>         order to
>         function, so in order to actually expose useful information to
>         our
>         assistive technologies, an application must LD_PRELOAD the
>         "atk-bridge"
>         module which bridges from ATK to AT-SPI's CORBA IPC.
>
>         I think this is the most effective thing to do for the time
>         being
>         (preload atk-bridge), since it doesn't introduce a CORBA
>         dependency on
>         the KDE apps (only a soft runtime dependency).  The AT-SPI
>         assistive
>         technology clients cannot work without the AT-SPI/ORBit2/etc.
>         libraries
>         being present on the system anyhow, so from a practical
>         perspective this
>         is the minimum current dependency situation.
>
>         There's another environment variable you can look for if you
>         don't want
>         to use gconf; GTK_MODULES.  Of course that's still quite a
>         gnome/gtk+-ish variable and arguably not appropriate to KDE
>         anyhow, so
>         it might be cleaner just to spawn a gconf-client executable
>         and parse
>         the output, in order to detect whether assistive technology
>         support is
>         desired or not.  Also, soon there will be a slightly different
>         mechanism
>         for detecting the presence of the AT-SPI registry - it will
>         place an IOR
>         as an Xatom on the root DISPLAY window.  This means you can
>         find it
>         without using bonobo-activation.
>
>         regards
>
>         Bill
>
>         >
>         > On a related note, is the gconf
>         > key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE
>         too, to set
>         > or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a
>         system? Or, is
>         > it used only on GNOME?
>         >
>         > Thanks,
>         > Ashutosh
>         >
>         >
>         ______________________________________________________________________
>         > _______________________________________________
>         > kde-accessibility mailing list
>         > kde-accessibility@kde.org
>         > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility
>
>
>
> Bill,
> Thanks for these details.
> I am actually wondering about the current state of KDE accessibility -
> whether AT clients under KDE currently depend on gnome/gconf libraries
> (especially if they use the gconf key
> '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' to enable AT support) .
> Thanks,
> Ashutosh
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> kde-accessibility mailing list
> kde-accessibility@kde.org
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility


Hi Bill,
 
These details are really useful. Thanks!
I suppose things will get much better on KDE after Qt4 or with more application specific Orca scripts.
 
Thanks,
Ashu
------=_Part_217_32816475.1151336580471-- From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Mon Jun 26 16:33:58 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99BB63B031D for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:33:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14290-03 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:33:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.205]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BC1E3B008B for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:33:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 13so1437074nzp for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:33:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.138.19 with SMTP id l19mr1632308nzd; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:33:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.73.15 with HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:33:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:33:56 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" Sender: skating.tortoise@gmail.com To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-Reply-To: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 99b8f1f66b5e77f8 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.395 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.005, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.395 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:33:58 -0000 The sytem-wide StickyKeys is too inflexible for my needs. I have the following gripes: * A user might want the onscreen keyboard to be sticky but not the physical. * It allows me to implement the functionality in a way that is more suitable for an onscreen keyboard. One click sets sticky for one click of a non sticky character, a further click sets sticky until a third click. * The sticky keys dialogue is annoying. A far better way would be to enable it in the preferences, since you must to enable assistive technology support and be notified of it's act/deactivation by a notification bubble. * This is not purely a a11y project. It has other uses, tablet pc's etc. Therefore I wanted a soft dependency on assistive technologies. * GOK's implentation is very unreliable on my system, and not something I particularly want to emulate. I know I should fix these gripes instead of treading my own path. However, this is a Summer of Code project and so I need to produce the expected results before a deadline. In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". Thanks for your time. On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > Hi Chris: > > The answer is, "don't implement sticky keys in your keyboard". You > should be using the system-wide StickyKeys settings and feature instead > (as GOK does). > > Interfering with the normal operation of the system wide setting (i.e > clashing with it as your app does), is itself an accessibility > violation. > > (There are several gconf keys you can use to turn sticky keys on and off > - see those under /desktop/gnome/accessibility/keyboard) > > Bill > > > I've implemented sticky keys in my onscreen keyboard. When shift is > > stuck down it causes the slow keys dialogue to appear. Is there a way > > to suppress this dialog whilst my app is running? > > > > thanks > > > > > > -- > > Chris Jones > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Mon Jun 26 16:43:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3667E3B01E8 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:43:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14968-01 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:43:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.204]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABE423B00F9 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:43:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 13so22255nzn for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:43:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.221.39 with SMTP id t39mr3268556nzg; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:43:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.73.15 with HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:43:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:43:30 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.5 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:43:34 -0000 Thanks for your reply. The system-wide StickyKeys is too inflexible for my needs. I have the following gripes: * A user might want the onscreen keyboard to be sticky but not the physical. * It does not allow me to implement the functionality in a way that is suitable for an onscreen keyboard. My implementations uses one click to set sticky for one click of a non sticky character, a further click sets sticky until a third click or the stuck key. * The sticky keys dialogue is annoying. A far better way would be to enable it in the preferences, since you must to enable assistive technology support and be notified of it's act/deactivation by a notification bubble. * This is not purely a a11y project. It has other uses, tablet PCs etc. Therefore I wanted a soft dependency on assistive technologies. * GOK's implementation is very unreliable on my system, and not something I particularly want to emulate. I know I should fix these gripes instead of treading my own path. However, this is a Summer of Code project and so I need to produce the expected results before a deadline. In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > Hi Chris: > > The answer is, "don't implement sticky keys in your keyboard". You > should be using the system-wide StickyKeys settings and feature instead > (as GOK does). > > Interfering with the normal operation of the system wide setting (i.e > clashing with it as your app does), is itself an accessibility > violation. > > (There are several gconf keys you can use to turn sticky keys on and off > - see those under /desktop/gnome/accessibility/keyboard) > > Bill > > > I've implemented sticky keys in my onscreen keyboard. When shift is > > stuck down it causes the slow keys dialogue to appear. Is there a way > > to suppress this dialog whilst my app is running? > > > > thanks > > > > > > -- > > Chris Jones > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 16:53:02 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8B223B03E8 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:53:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15302-10 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:52:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Sun.COM [192.18.98.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38EB13B031D for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:52:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5QKqvel002689 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:52:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1H00201IWLS9@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:52:57 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-202.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.202]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1H00H7JJC8F4@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:52:57 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:54:08 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: To: Chris Jones Message-id: <1151355248.7079.75.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:53:03 -0000 On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 21:43, Chris Jones wrote: > Thanks for your reply. > > The system-wide StickyKeys is too inflexible for my needs. I have the > following gripes: > * A user might want the onscreen keyboard to be sticky but not the physical. I am not convinced that users will really want this, perhaps this is your opinion. It is still an accessibility violation to interfere with the way the built-in keyboard accessibility features work. > * It does not allow me to implement the functionality in a way that > is suitable for an onscreen keyboard. My implementations uses one > click to set sticky for one > click of a non sticky character, a further click sets sticky until a > third click or the stuck key. The system dialog settings work this way on most systems. > * The sticky keys dialogue is annoying. A far better way would be > to enable it in the preferences, since you must to enable assistive > technology support and be notified of it's act/deactivation by a > notification bubble. You can already turn this off, but it needs to be the default for new desktops/new users, in order to allow users who need it to turn it on via the keyboard shortcuts. > * This is not purely a a11y project. It has other uses, tablet PCs > etc. Therefore I wanted a soft dependency on assistive technologies. The StickyKeys feature is not an assistive technology, per se. However it is a standard platform feature. > * GOK's implementation is very unreliable on my system, and not > something I particularly want to emulate. Have you filed any bug reports? ALL onscreen keyboards will suffer from problems if they use the system core pointer for input, because of pointer grabs which virtually every GUI toolkit does. > I know I should fix these gripes instead of treading my own path. > However, this is a Summer of Code project and so I need to produce the > expected results before a deadline. > > In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". I suggest you use the system gconf keys for sticky keys. regards Bill > > On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > Hi Chris: > > > > The answer is, "don't implement sticky keys in your keyboard". You > > should be using the system-wide StickyKeys settings and feature instead > > (as GOK does). > > > > Interfering with the normal operation of the system wide setting (i.e > > clashing with it as your app does), is itself an accessibility > > violation. > > > > (There are several gconf keys you can use to turn sticky keys on and off > > - see those under /desktop/gnome/accessibility/keyboard) > > > > Bill > > > > > I've implemented sticky keys in my onscreen keyboard. When shift is > > > stuck down it causes the slow keys dialogue to appear. Is there a way > > > to suppress this dialog whilst my app is running? > > > > > > thanks > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Chris Jones > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > -- > Chris Jones > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From henrik@ubuntu.com Mon Jun 26 17:28:25 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 715EE3B00C1 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:28:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17303-03 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:28:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1082A3B00AD for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:28:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.0.10] (henrik.gotadsl.co.uk [82.133.122.11]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D30223788D; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:28:18 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:28:26 +0100 From: Henrik Nilsen Omma User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Jones Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.593 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.006, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.593 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:28:25 -0000 Chris Jones wrote: > ... > > In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". Chris, Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the state internally in SOK? IOW: 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift is clicked again you unset the flag. That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an 'accessibility violation'. Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? - Henrik From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 17:39:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CA353B01FF for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:39:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17635-04 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:39:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2953C3B0157 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:39:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5QLd8Uc010930 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:39:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1H00E01KY47T@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:39:13 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-202.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.202]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1H00HS8LH8F4@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:39:09 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:40:20 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> To: Henrik Nilsen Omma Message-id: <1151358020.7079.77.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:39:27 -0000 On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? Are you going to say something helpful? :-/ Bill > - Henrik > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From henrik@ubuntu.com Mon Jun 26 18:05:10 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24E3B3B038D for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:05:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18852-08 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:05:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E91383B028E for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:05:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.0.10] (henrik.gotadsl.co.uk [82.133.122.11]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4D8A237AE0; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:05:02 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <44A05A17.10107@ubuntu.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:05:11 +0100 From: Henrik Nilsen Omma User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151358020.7079.77.camel@linux.site> In-Reply-To: <1151358020.7079.77.camel@linux.site> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.594 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.005, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.594 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:05:10 -0000 Bill Haneman wrote: > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > > >> Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? >> > > Are you going to say something helpful? > > OK, I should have resisted that last line, sorry. But there is a valid point under the sarcasm, which is: we are trying to make new and better tools here and it is not very helpful to then always refer back to the existing tools which really don't work. - Henrik From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 18:27:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3B5A3B01FF for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:27:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19726-10 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:27:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2271D3B0088 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:27:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5QMRhsc010962 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:27:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1H00701N9XYA@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:27:42 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-202.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.202]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1H00HENNQ6F4@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:27:42 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:28:54 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: <44A05A17.10107@ubuntu.com> To: Henrik Nilsen Omma Message-id: <1151360933.7079.83.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151358020.7079.77.camel@linux.site> <44A05A17.10107@ubuntu.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:27:46 -0000 On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 23:05, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > Bill Haneman wrote: > > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > > > > > >> Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? > >> > > > > Are you going to say something helpful? > > > > > > OK, I should have resisted that last line, sorry. > > But there is a valid point under the sarcasm, which is: > we are trying to > make new and better tools here and it is not very helpful > to then always > refer back to the existing tools which really don't work. You keep saying the existing tools "don't work", but you don't seem to be helping to make them work. 90% of all GOK problems are configuration issues. This is documented in the Gnome Accessibility Guide - mostly it comes down to broken-ness in the way XInput works in most systems out-of-the box. I think in the end we will have to ditch XInput where GOK is concerned, but although several research projects have been carried out to try and identify alternatives, we haven't found one that really fits the bill. Henrik, I thought it was part of your job to do QA and testing of Ubuntu accessibility... so I would hope you would be interested in helping work towards solutions. Building a new onscreen keyboard that doesn't meet the needs of disabled users isn't the right solution in my opinion. Did you even investigate GOK's configurability? I really believe that there are multiple ways in which GOK could have been used to solve the problem you are apparently attempting to solve, but I know for a fact that you didn't have any in-depth discussions with the maintainers. Bill > - Henrik > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 18:38:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC0823B0201 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:38:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20536-04 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:38:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (nwkea-mail-1.sun.com [192.18.42.13]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D43B3B028E for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:38:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5QMch8F017296 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:38:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1H00B01NVL0X@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:38:43 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-202.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.202]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1H00H3VO8IF4@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:38:43 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:39:54 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> To: Henrik Nilsen Omma Message-id: <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:38:46 -0000 On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > Chris Jones wrote: > > ... > > > > In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > > for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > > SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > > fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". > Chris, > > Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the > state internally in SOK? IOW: We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. regards Bill > 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked > SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. > > 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time > the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift > is clicked again you unset the flag. > > That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an > 'accessibility violation'. > > Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? > > - Henrik > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Mon Jun 26 19:51:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E3D03B0011 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 19:51:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23446-08 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 19:51:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.197]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3169F3B00A1 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 19:51:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i1so1971854nzh for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.252.42 with SMTP id z42mr8821381nzh; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.73.15 with HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:51:32 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-Reply-To: <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.495 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.095, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.495 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:51:36 -0000 But this very same thing makes it very awkward who want sticky keys on the keyboard and non-sticky on a physical. Which would be true for all non-a11y users and some a11y users. In the end though the only manner it interferes with my keyboard is the annoying dialogue that pops up, and the average gnome-ally user will probably be plenty used to seeing annoying dialogs anyway. The slow keys dialogue however is another matter though. Normal operations are not resumed until it is dismissed. Which in itself incredibly annoying. When planning the SOK I wanted to stay away from the three odd dialogs that GOK pops up when it is started. The plain fact is I don't want any dialogs when starting SOK. At all. Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely unacceptable. On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > > Chris Jones wrote: > > > ... > > > > > > In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > > > for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > > > SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > > > fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". > > Chris, > > > > Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the > > state internally in SOK? IOW: > > We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. > It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build > an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use > it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. > > If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key > while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is > inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a > problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock > status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you > want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. > > google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's > section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. > > regards > > Bill > > > 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked > > SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. > > > > 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time > > the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift > > is clicked again you unset the flag. > > > > That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an > > 'accessibility violation'. > > > > Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? > > > > - Henrik > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 20:33:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 990BD3B00E4 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:33:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25514-08 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:33:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC7A63B00B9 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:32:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-03.sun.com ([192.18.39.113]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5R0Wp3I018727 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-03.sun.com by d1-sfbay-03.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J1H00101T7TKN00@d1-sfbay-03.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.25.76] by d1-sfbay-03.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J1H0092KTIRRY90@d1-sfbay-03.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:32:50 -0700 From: Peter Korn Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: Chris Jones Message-id: <44A07CB2.4090808@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.539 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.059, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.539 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:33:03 -0000 Hi Chris, I think there are two issues here. Well, three: 1. Can an on-screen keyboard implement "sticky" modifiers without using the system support for sticky modifiers? 2. Can an on-screen keyboard circumvent/disable the system support for sticky modifiers (and slow keys, and...)? 3. Is the right way to "fix" what is "broken" in GOK doing another project rather than working with the existing GOK code to "fix" those "broken" things? I suggest that #3 may be somewhat religious at this point; I'm personally saddened that we aren't at least looking seriously at GOK improvements, but fundamentally a goal of UNIX accessibility is to foster the development of a rich accessibility ecosystem - and a rich ecosystem has room for multiple approaches to similar problems (cf. Orca and Gnopernicus and LSR). I have no issues with #1 - I see no reason why an on-screen keyboard cannot have its own way of making certain modifiers sticky on its own user interface *without* doing so through the system-wide setting mechanisms. Such a decision is I think a valid user-interface policy decision of an individual application. However, it is a direct Section 508 violation for an application to override or ignore system-wide accessibility settings. It is even more egregious for an application that claims to be at least in part for people with disabilities (and thus an 'enlightened' application) to do so. So, my suggestion is that if you simply cannot possible use the system-settings for sticky keys as part of your own UI, that you make things sticky your own way; however that if the system-wide settings are on that you use and respect those (complete with the dialog box that you seem to dislike). Regards, Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. > But this very same thing makes it very awkward who want sticky keys on > the keyboard and non-sticky on a physical. Which would be true for > all non-a11y users and some a11y users. > > In the end though the only manner it interferes with my keyboard is > the annoying dialogue that pops up, and the average gnome-ally user > will probably be plenty used to seeing annoying dialogs anyway. > > The slow keys dialogue however is another matter though. Normal > operations are not resumed until it is dismissed. Which in itself > incredibly annoying. > > When planning the SOK I wanted to stay away from the three odd dialogs > that GOK pops up when it is started. The plain fact is I don't want > any dialogs when starting SOK. At all. > > Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > unacceptable. > > On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > >> On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: >> >>> Chris Jones wrote: >>> >>>> ... >>>> >>>> In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable >>>> for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the >>>> SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and >>>> fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". >>>> >>> Chris, >>> >>> Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the >>> state internally in SOK? IOW: >>> >> We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. >> It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build >> an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use >> it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. >> >> If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key >> while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is >> inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a >> problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock >> status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you >> want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. >> >> google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's >> section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. >> >> regards >> >> Bill >> >> >>> 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked >>> SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. >>> >>> 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time >>> the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift >>> is clicked again you unset the flag. >>> >>> That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an >>> 'accessibility violation'. >>> >>> Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? >>> >>> - Henrik >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >>> >> > > > From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 20:42:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B88403B0319 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:42:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26206-02 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:42:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3F033B02D1 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:42:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-03.sun.com ([192.18.39.113]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5R0gPqD019717 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-03.sun.com by d1-sfbay-03.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J1H00101T7TKN00@d1-sfbay-03.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.25.76] by d1-sfbay-03.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J1H009XQTYLRU70@d1-sfbay-03.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:42:20 -0700 From: Peter Korn Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: <44A07CB2.4090808@sun.com> Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: Chris Jones Message-id: <44A07EEC.1050109@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> <44A07CB2.4090808@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.542 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.056, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.542 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:42:27 -0000 Hi Chris, One more thing. You write: > Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > unacceptable. Have you filed an RFE on this issue (seeking a way to invoke the system-wide Sticky-Keys functionality programatically without the user dialog box), or are you simply trying to "work around it"? I would hope that part of a SoC project is to at least file bugs/RFEs for things you want, even if you "work around them" for the purposes of meeting a project deadline. I would hope that filing bugs/RFEs is part of the purview of SoC projects. Regards, Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. > Hi Chris, > > I think there are two issues here. Well, three: > > 1. Can an on-screen keyboard implement "sticky" modifiers without using > the system support for sticky modifiers? > 2. Can an on-screen keyboard circumvent/disable the system support for > sticky modifiers (and slow keys, and...)? > 3. Is the right way to "fix" what is "broken" in GOK doing another > project rather than working with the existing GOK code to "fix" those > "broken" things? > > I suggest that #3 may be somewhat religious at this point; I'm > personally saddened that we aren't at least looking seriously at GOK > improvements, but fundamentally a goal of UNIX accessibility is to > foster the development of a rich accessibility ecosystem - and a rich > ecosystem has room for multiple approaches to similar problems (cf. Orca > and Gnopernicus and LSR). > > I have no issues with #1 - I see no reason why an on-screen keyboard > cannot have its own way of making certain modifiers sticky on its own > user interface *without* doing so through the system-wide setting > mechanisms. Such a decision is I think a valid user-interface policy > decision of an individual application. > > However, it is a direct Section 508 violation for an application to > override or ignore system-wide accessibility settings. It is even more > egregious for an application that claims to be at least in part for > people with disabilities (and thus an 'enlightened' application) to do so. > > > So, my suggestion is that if you simply cannot possible use the > system-settings for sticky keys as part of your own UI, that you make > things sticky your own way; however that if the system-wide settings are > on that you use and respect those (complete with the dialog box that you > seem to dislike). > > > Regards, > > Peter Korn > Accessibility Architect, > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > >> But this very same thing makes it very awkward who want sticky keys on >> the keyboard and non-sticky on a physical. Which would be true for >> all non-a11y users and some a11y users. >> >> In the end though the only manner it interferes with my keyboard is >> the annoying dialogue that pops up, and the average gnome-ally user >> will probably be plenty used to seeing annoying dialogs anyway. >> >> The slow keys dialogue however is another matter though. Normal >> operations are not resumed until it is dismissed. Which in itself >> incredibly annoying. >> >> When planning the SOK I wanted to stay away from the three odd dialogs >> that GOK pops up when it is started. The plain fact is I don't want >> any dialogs when starting SOK. At all. >> >> Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one >> dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely >> unacceptable. >> >> On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: >> >> >>> On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Chris Jones wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> ... >>>>> >>>>> In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable >>>>> for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the >>>>> SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and >>>>> fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Chris, >>>> >>>> Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the >>>> state internally in SOK? IOW: >>>> >>>> >>> We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. >>> It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build >>> an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use >>> it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. >>> >>> If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key >>> while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is >>> inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a >>> problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock >>> status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you >>> want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. >>> >>> google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's >>> section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. >>> >>> regards >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> >>> >>>> 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked >>>> SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. >>>> >>>> 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time >>>> the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift >>>> is clicked again you unset the flag. >>>> >>>> That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an >>>> 'accessibility violation'. >>>> >>>> Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? >>>> >>>> - Henrik >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >>>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >>>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > From cerha@brailcom.org Tue Jun 27 03:30:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 380E63B02F3 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 03:30:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12733-05 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 03:30:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gate.brailcom.cz (158-84-244-84.strcechy.adsl-llu.static.bluetone.cz [84.244.84.158]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C08F93B0224 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 03:30:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 12155 invoked from network); 27 Jun 2006 09:09:08 +0200 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.15.2?) (192.168.15.2) by ns.brailcom.xx with SMTP; 27 Jun 2006 09:09:08 +0200 Message-ID: <44A0FAB5.7070906@brailcom.org> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:30:29 +0200 From: Tomas Cerha Organization: Brailcom, o.p.s. User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060626091722.GA16369@themuso.com> In-Reply-To: <20060626091722.GA16369@themuso.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.394 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.070, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.394 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 07:30:33 -0000 Luke Yelavich wrote: > Mind I ask when this is likely to be completed? > If you would like testers, I would be happy to put my hand up and try. Hi Luke, I hope to be able to make something available this week, but can't promise, since I'm at Guadec and it might be hard to find some spare time. If not, then I'll be back at work by the middle of July. I will definitely announce it as soon as there is something. Best regards, Tomas. -- Brailcom, o.p.s. http://www.brailcom.org Free(b)soft project http://www.freebsoft.org Eurochance project http://eurochance.brailcom.org From obert01@terramitica.net Tue Jun 27 05:58:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFB0B3B02C5 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 05:58:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21911-02 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 05:58:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sunset.terramitica.net (terramitica.net [82.230.142.140]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0F573B0088 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 05:58:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sunset.terramitica.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6D84D1FFC1; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:57:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:57:47 +0200 From: Olivier BERT To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech Message-ID: <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.567 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.032, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.567 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 09:58:45 -0000 > I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This > bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher > offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, this > may be essential for some people and the Orca -> Gnome Speech -> Speech > Dispatcher -> synthesizer aproach has inherent problems. This might > solve your problem too. > > Please, see also the common "TTS API" draft at > http://www.freebsoft.org/tts-api. This is a common effort of Free > Desktop and FSG. Very very good idea. Unfortunately, gnome-speech was not very stable, sometimes speech randomly stops. And it's true that it will optimize the speech chain. orca -> gnome speech -> speech-dispatcher -> synthesis was quite long :) And so, it must be nearly impossible to debug it. So thanks very much Tomas for this work ! -- Olivier BERT e-mail: obert01@mistigri.org Etudiant a l'E.P.I.T.A. (cycle ingenieur, 3eme annee) Tel: 06 07 69 79 71 From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Tue Jun 27 06:55:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AE9B3B009A for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 06:55:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24503-05 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 06:55:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EA133B006C for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 06:55:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5RAtKd4008557 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 04:55:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1I00501MBGFB@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:55:19 +0100 (BST) Received: from dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM (dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM [129.156.226.143]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1I002FWMC7GU@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:55:19 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:56:31 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: To: Chris Jones Message-id: <1151405791.7083.10.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.497 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.101, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.497 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 10:55:57 -0000 Hi Chris: I'll try to respond to each of your points in turn: On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 00:51, Chris Jones wrote: > But this very same thing makes it very awkward who want sticky keys on > the keyboard and non-sticky on a physical. Which would be true for > all non-a11y users and some a11y users. I don't understand what you are saying here, "the very same thing." My suggestion to use XKB client API would make it quite feasible for the physical keyboard to be non-sticky and for the onscreen keyboard to be sticky. Please re-read my post and check the XKB APIs. If after investigating it you still can't find what you are looking for, email me and I will try to assist - but you should read section 10.6 of the XKBlib manual first. > In the end though the only manner it interferes with my keyboard is > the annoying dialogue that pops up, and the average gnome-ally user > will probably be plenty used to seeing annoying dialogs anyway. The dialog pops up because you are indeed turning on SlowKeys. This is because of the way in which you are implementing sticky-keys in your application. What you should avoid is generating a key-press without a following key-release, since this triggers SlowKeys just as it does when you press and hold the Shift key on the physical keyboard. Perhaps you are talking about some other dialog as well? I'm afraid it's not clear from your messages. > The slow keys dialogue however is another matter though. Normal > operations are not resumed until it is dismissed. Which in itself > incredibly annoying. Without it, the keyboard would silently begin to require long press and hold sequences in order to work; this is necessary for users with some types of disabilities, but it's essential that the end user be warned when the keyboard's behavior is being changed in this way (in response to end user action, which is the case here). > When planning the SOK I wanted to stay away from the three odd dialogs > that GOK pops up when it is started. The plain fact is I don't want > any dialogs when starting SOK. At all. You can make GOK suppress those warnings I believe. If you do get them, READ THEM, they are telling you that your system has serious configuration issues which may make GOK unusable! > Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > unacceptable. This isn't at all true. You can easily programmatically turn this feature on when your keyboard starts, and turn it off when it exits - you can even turn the feature on and off when the mouse enters and leaves your keyboard, if that's what you want. Bear in mind that ANY onscreen keyboard that uses the mouse will fail to work properly when used to pop up menus, etc. via keyboard navigation, because of system toolkit pointer grabs. Are you aware of that fact? It will strike your onscreen keyboard as well. This is the reason for GOK's somewhat brittle configuration requirements, and the reason you are warned not to use GOK via the system core pointer. Bill > On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote > > > Chris Jones wrote: > > > > ... > > > > > > > > In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > > > > for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > > > > SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > > > > fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". > > > Chris, > > > > > > Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the > > > state internally in SOK? IOW: > > > > We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. > > It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build > > an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use > > it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. > > > > If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key > > while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is > > inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a > > problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock > > status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you > > want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. > > > > google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's > > section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. > > > > regards > > > > Bill > > > > > 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked > > > SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. > > > > > > 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time > > > the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift > > > is clicked again you unset the flag. > > > > > > That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an > > > 'accessibility violation'. > > > > > > Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? > > > > > > - Henrik > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > -- > Chris Jones > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Tue Jun 27 06:57:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D80933B00FF for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 06:57:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24638-04 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 06:57:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 877CE3B0098 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 06:57:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5RAvL7o009675 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 04:57:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1I00501MBGFB@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:57:20 +0100 (BST) Received: from dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM (dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM [129.156.226.143]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1I0021LMFKGU@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:57:20 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:58:32 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: <44A07EEC.1050109@sun.com> To: Peter Korn Message-id: <1151405912.7083.13.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> <44A07CB2.4090808@sun.com> <44A07EEC.1050109@sun.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.498 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.498 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 10:57:47 -0000 On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 01:42, Peter Korn wrote: > Hi Chris, > > One more thing. You write: > > > Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > > dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > > unacceptable. > > Have you filed an RFE on this issue (seeking a way to invoke the > system-wide Sticky-Keys functionality programatically without the user > dialog box), This is trivial to do. If you modify the key via gconf API, either by linking to gconf or just spawning a gconftool-2 command line, then you can change these settings without triggering the warning dialogs. If this has somehow regressed (it has worked on every system I know of, for several years), then a bug needs to be filed. Billy > or are you simply trying to "work around it"? I would hope > that part of a SoC project is to at least file bugs/RFEs for things you > want, even if you "work around them" for the purposes of meeting a > project deadline. I would hope that filing bugs/RFEs is part of the > purview of SoC projects. > > Regards, > > > Peter Korn > Accessibility Architect, > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > > Hi Chris, > > > > I think there are two issues here. Well, three: > > > > 1. Can an on-screen keyboard implement "sticky" modifiers without using > > the system support for sticky modifiers? > > 2. Can an on-screen keyboard circumvent/disable the system support for > > sticky modifiers (and slow keys, and...)? > > 3. Is the right way to "fix" what is "broken" in GOK doing another > > project rather than working with the existing GOK code to "fix" those > > "broken" things? > > > > I suggest that #3 may be somewhat religious at this point; I'm > > personally saddened that we aren't at least looking seriously at GOK > > improvements, but fundamentally a goal of UNIX accessibility is to > > foster the development of a rich accessibility ecosystem - and a rich > > ecosystem has room for multiple approaches to similar problems (cf. Orca > > and Gnopernicus and LSR). > > > > I have no issues with #1 - I see no reason why an on-screen keyboard > > cannot have its own way of making certain modifiers sticky on its own > > user interface *without* doing so through the system-wide setting > > mechanisms. Such a decision is I think a valid user-interface policy > > decision of an individual application. > > > > However, it is a direct Section 508 violation for an application to > > override or ignore system-wide accessibility settings. It is even more > > egregious for an application that claims to be at least in part for > > people with disabilities (and thus an 'enlightened' application) to do so. > > > > > > So, my suggestion is that if you simply cannot possible use the > > system-settings for sticky keys as part of your own UI, that you make > > things sticky your own way; however that if the system-wide settings are > > on that you use and respect those (complete with the dialog box that you > > seem to dislike). > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Peter Korn > > Accessibility Architect, > > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > > > > >> But this very same thing makes it very awkward who want sticky keys on > >> the keyboard and non-sticky on a physical. Which would be true for > >> all non-a11y users and some a11y users. > >> > >> In the end though the only manner it interferes with my keyboard is > >> the annoying dialogue that pops up, and the average gnome-ally user > >> will probably be plenty used to seeing annoying dialogs anyway. > >> > >> The slow keys dialogue however is another matter though. Normal > >> operations are not resumed until it is dismissed. Which in itself > >> incredibly annoying. > >> > >> When planning the SOK I wanted to stay away from the three odd dialogs > >> that GOK pops up when it is started. The plain fact is I don't want > >> any dialogs when starting SOK. At all. > >> > >> Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > >> dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > >> unacceptable. > >> > >> On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > >> > >> > >>> On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> Chris Jones wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> ... > >>>>> > >>>>> In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > >>>>> for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > >>>>> SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > >>>>> fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> Chris, > >>>> > >>>> Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the > >>>> state internally in SOK? IOW: > >>>> > >>>> > >>> We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. > >>> It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build > >>> an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use > >>> it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. > >>> > >>> If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key > >>> while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is > >>> inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a > >>> problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock > >>> status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you > >>> want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. > >>> > >>> google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's > >>> section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. > >>> > >>> regards > >>> > >>> Bill > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked > >>>> SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. > >>>> > >>>> 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time > >>>> the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift > >>>> is clicked again you unset the flag. > >>>> > >>>> That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an > >>>> 'accessibility violation'. > >>>> > >>>> Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? > >>>> > >>>> - Henrik > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > >>>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > >>>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Tue Jun 27 07:39:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FE523B00B3 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 07:39:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26317-07 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 07:39:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36A743B0008 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 07:39:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5RBdWO3020902 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 05:39:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1I00401O8QXW@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:39:32 +0100 (BST) Received: from dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM (dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM [129.156.226.143]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1I00FEIODV70@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:39:32 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:40:44 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech In-reply-to: <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> To: Olivier BERT Message-id: <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.504 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.094, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.504 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:39:41 -0000 On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 10:57, Olivier BERT wrote: > > I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This > > bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher > > offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, Does Speech Dispatcher support something other than Festival now? Gnome-speech has support for quite a few speech engines including some commercial ones with much clearer speech. Unfortunately one of the best values and clearest sounding options, 'Theta' from Cepstral, has been obsoleted by the new Cepstral Swift engine; we need someone to port the Theta support over the Cepstral. While free voices and engines are really important, for some users clarity of speech is paramount, so it's important to have support for at least the less expensive non-free TTS engines. I don't have any objection to using Speech Dispatcher as a common back-end, if there are more resources available to keep it up to date compared to gnome-speech. But we shouldn't move over entirely until we have comparable driver support. One area where Speech Dispatcher seems to be ahead is in support for non-English Festival voices, but I think that testing is the only impediment to using the non-Engish voices in gnome-speech as well (the Festival API is the same in either case). regards Bill > this > > may be essential for some people and the Orca -> Gnome Speech -> Speech > > Dispatcher -> synthesizer aproach has inherent problems. This might > > solve your problem too. > > > > Please, see also the common "TTS API" draft at > > http://www.freebsoft.org/tts-api. This is a common effort of Free > > Desktop and FSG. > > Very very good idea. > Unfortunately, gnome-speech was not very stable, sometimes speech > randomly stops. > And it's true that it will optimize the speech chain. orca -> gnome > speech -> speech-dispatcher -> synthesis was quite long :) And so, it > must be nearly impossible to debug it. > > So thanks very much Tomas for this work ! > -- > Olivier BERT > e-mail: obert01@mistigri.org > Etudiant a l'E.P.I.T.A. (cycle ingenieur, 3eme annee) > Tel: 06 07 69 79 71 > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From wvdwalt@csir.co.za Tue Jun 27 07:55:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 687933B009B for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 07:55:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26868-08 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 07:54:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apollo.csir.co.za (mx-4.csir.co.za [146.64.10.99]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 698433B0011 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 07:54:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([146.64.19.125]) by apollo.csir.co.za (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k5RBrpgB010902; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:53:51 +0200 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k5RBohn3013165; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:50:43 +0200 Received: from localhost (wvdwalt@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) with ESMTP id k5RBohUb013155; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:50:43 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: wvdwalt owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:50:43 +0200 (SAST) From: Willem van der Walt X-X-Sender: wvdwalt@localhost.localdomain To: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech In-Reply-To: <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> Message-ID: References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-CSIR-MailScanner-Information: Please contact sys-admin at csir dot co dot za for more information X-CSIR-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: wvdwalt@csir.co.za X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.555 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.044, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.555 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:55:00 -0000 Speech-dispatcher has support for the DECTalk Software speech and Viavoice/TTSynth. It also has a generic module through which one can make it work using any synthesizer that can take text on the command-line and speak it. Speech-dispatcher is very stable, even when using an unstable generic synthesizer. Although the generic module has some limits, in practice, it works well. HTH, Willem On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Bill Haneman wrote: > On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 10:57, Olivier BERT wrote: >>> I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This >>> bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher >>> offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, > > Does Speech Dispatcher support something other than Festival now? > Gnome-speech has support for quite a few speech engines including some > commercial ones with much clearer speech. Unfortunately one of the best > values and clearest sounding options, 'Theta' from Cepstral, has been > obsoleted by the new Cepstral Swift engine; we need someone to port the > Theta support over the Cepstral. > > While free voices and engines are really important, for some users > clarity of speech is paramount, so it's important to have support for at > least the less expensive non-free TTS engines. > > I don't have any objection to using Speech Dispatcher as a common > back-end, if there are more resources available to keep it up to date > compared to gnome-speech. But we shouldn't move over entirely until we > have comparable driver support. One area where Speech Dispatcher seems > to be ahead is in support for non-English Festival voices, but I think > that testing is the only impediment to using the non-Engish voices in > gnome-speech as well (the Festival API is the same in either case). > > regards > > Bill > >> this >>> may be essential for some people and the Orca -> Gnome Speech -> Speech >>> Dispatcher -> synthesizer aproach has inherent problems. This might >>> solve your problem too. >>> >>> Please, see also the common "TTS API" draft at >>> http://www.freebsoft.org/tts-api. This is a common effort of Free >>> Desktop and FSG. >> >> Very very good idea. >> Unfortunately, gnome-speech was not very stable, sometimes speech >> randomly stops. >> And it's true that it will optimize the speech chain. orca -> gnome >> speech -> speech-dispatcher -> synthesis was quite long :) And so, it >> must be nearly impossible to debug it. >> >> So thanks very much Tomas for this work ! >> -- >> Olivier BERT >> e-mail: obert01@mistigri.org >> Etudiant a l'E.P.I.T.A. (cycle ingenieur, 3eme annee) >> Tel: 06 07 69 79 71 >> _______________________________________________ >> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > -- This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright, terms and conditions and e-mail legal notice. Views expressed herein do not necessarily represent the views of the CSIR. CSIR E-mail Legal Notice http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_eMail_Legal_Notice.html CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_Copyright.html For electronic copies of the CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions and the CSIR Legal Notice send a blank message with REQUEST LEGAL in the subject line to HelpDesk@csir.co.za. This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. MailScanner thanks Transtec Computers for their support. From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Tue Jun 27 08:26:59 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 454083B0072 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:26:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28277-08 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:26:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Sun.COM [192.18.98.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E8F03B0012 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:26:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5RCPnX2015364 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 06:26:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1I00K01PZQJ4@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:17:46 +0100 (BST) Received: from dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM (dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM [129.156.226.143]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1I00FBPQ5670@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:17:30 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:18:42 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech In-reply-to: To: Willem van der Walt Message-id: <1151410722.7842.27.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.507 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.091, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.507 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:26:59 -0000 Hi Willem: That's good news about the DECTalk and TTSynth support. If we could get a Cepstral/Swift module as well, I think we'd have the major synths covered. Perhaps the gnome-speech FreeTTS code could be ported to the SpeechDispatcher API someday, to give us two free engines (especially now that Java licensing is more acceptable to free distros). I suspect the 'generic module' may not work well for screen readers because of the need for speech markers or at least "end of speech" notification, but it's still useful for some things of course. regards Bill On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 12:50, Willem van der Walt wrote: > Speech-dispatcher has support for the DECTalk Software speech and > Viavoice/TTSynth. It also has a generic module through which one can make > it work using any synthesizer that can take text on the command-line and > speak it. > Speech-dispatcher is very stable, even when using an unstable generic > synthesizer. > Although the generic module has some limits, in practice, it works well. > HTH, Willem > > On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Bill Haneman wrote: > > > On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 10:57, Olivier BERT wrote: > >>> I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This > >>> bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher > >>> offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, > > > > Does Speech Dispatcher support something other than Festival now? > > Gnome-speech has support for quite a few speech engines including some > > commercial ones with much clearer speech. Unfortunately one of the best > > values and clearest sounding options, 'Theta' from Cepstral, has been > > obsoleted by the new Cepstral Swift engine; we need someone to port the > > Theta support over the Cepstral. > > > > While free voices and engines are really important, for some users > > clarity of speech is paramount, so it's important to have support for at > > least the less expensive non-free TTS engines. > > > > I don't have any objection to using Speech Dispatcher as a common > > back-end, if there are more resources available to keep it up to date > > compared to gnome-speech. But we shouldn't move over entirely until we > > have comparable driver support. One area where Speech Dispatcher seems > > to be ahead is in support for non-English Festival voices, but I think > > that testing is the only impediment to using the non-Engish voices in > > gnome-speech as well (the Festival API is the same in either case). > > > > regards > > > > Bill > > > >> this > >>> may be essential for some people and the Orca -> Gnome Speech -> Speech > >>> Dispatcher -> synthesizer aproach has inherent problems. This might > >>> solve your problem too. > >>> > >>> Please, see also the common "TTS API" draft at > >>> http://www.freebsoft.org/tts-api. This is a common effort of Free > >>> Desktop and FSG. > >> > >> Very very good idea. > >> Unfortunately, gnome-speech was not very stable, sometimes speech > >> randomly stops. > >> And it's true that it will optimize the speech chain. orca -> gnome > >> speech -> speech-dispatcher -> synthesis was quite long :) And so, it > >> must be nearly impossible to debug it. > >> > >> So thanks very much Tomas for this work ! > >> -- > >> Olivier BERT > >> e-mail: obert01@mistigri.org > >> Etudiant a l'E.P.I.T.A. (cycle ingenieur, 3eme annee) > >> Tel: 06 07 69 79 71 > >> _______________________________________________ > >> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > >> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > -- > This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright, terms and conditions and > e-mail legal notice. Views expressed herein do not necessarily represent the > views of the CSIR. > > CSIR E-mail Legal Notice > http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_eMail_Legal_Notice.html > > CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions > http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_Copyright.html > > For electronic copies of the CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions and the CSIR > Legal Notice send a blank message with REQUEST LEGAL in the subject line to > HelpDesk@csir.co.za. > > > This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, > and is believed to be clean. MailScanner thanks Transtec Computers for their support. > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From wvdwalt@csir.co.za Tue Jun 27 08:38:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DDF33B0011 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:38:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28814-05 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:38:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apollo.csir.co.za (mx-4.csir.co.za [146.64.10.99]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2CFD3B0072 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:38:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([146.64.19.125]) by apollo.csir.co.za (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k5RCaUHp001391; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:36:30 +0200 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k5RCXMJn028019; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:33:22 +0200 Received: from localhost (wvdwalt@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) with ESMTP id k5RCXM19028011; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:33:22 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: wvdwalt owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:33:22 +0200 (SAST) From: Willem van der Walt X-X-Sender: wvdwalt@localhost.localdomain To: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech In-Reply-To: <1151410722.7842.27.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> Message-ID: References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> <1151410722.7842.27.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-CSIR-MailScanner-Information: Please contact sys-admin at csir dot co dot za for more information X-CSIR-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: wvdwalt@csir.co.za X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.559 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.040, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.559 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:38:34 -0000 Speech-dispatcher in general works well with screen readers. I am using it with its generic module as I am writing this email. It stops speech by killing the command-line program that is executed by the generic module. This works better than one would expect. When testing Orca or Gnopernicus, I these days always use the speech-dispatcher driver in gnome-speech to drive a synth through the generic speech-dispatcher module. As I recall, Swift also has some command-line program that can say a phrase or two, so it should be relativly easy to make that work also. Regards, Willem On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Bill Haneman wrote: > Hi Willem: > > That's good news about the DECTalk and TTSynth support. If we could get > a Cepstral/Swift module as well, I think we'd have the major synths > covered. Perhaps the gnome-speech FreeTTS code could be ported to the > SpeechDispatcher API someday, to give us two free engines (especially > now that Java licensing is more acceptable to free distros). > > I suspect the 'generic module' may not work well for screen readers > because of the need for speech markers or at least "end of speech" > notification, but it's still useful for some things of course. > > regards > > Bill > > On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 12:50, Willem van der Walt wrote: >> Speech-dispatcher has support for the DECTalk Software speech and >> Viavoice/TTSynth. It also has a generic module through which one can make >> it work using any synthesizer that can take text on the command-line and >> speak it. >> Speech-dispatcher is very stable, even when using an unstable generic >> synthesizer. >> Although the generic module has some limits, in practice, it works well. >> HTH, Willem >> >> On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Bill Haneman wrote: >> >>> On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 10:57, Olivier BERT wrote: >>>>> I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This >>>>> bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher >>>>> offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, >>> >>> Does Speech Dispatcher support something other than Festival now? >>> Gnome-speech has support for quite a few speech engines including some >>> commercial ones with much clearer speech. Unfortunately one of the best >>> values and clearest sounding options, 'Theta' from Cepstral, has been >>> obsoleted by the new Cepstral Swift engine; we need someone to port the >>> Theta support over the Cepstral. >>> >>> While free voices and engines are really important, for some users >>> clarity of speech is paramount, so it's important to have support for at >>> least the less expensive non-free TTS engines. >>> >>> I don't have any objection to using Speech Dispatcher as a common >>> back-end, if there are more resources available to keep it up to date >>> compared to gnome-speech. But we shouldn't move over entirely until we >>> have comparable driver support. One area where Speech Dispatcher seems >>> to be ahead is in support for non-English Festival voices, but I think >>> that testing is the only impediment to using the non-Engish voices in >>> gnome-speech as well (the Festival API is the same in either case). >>> >>> regards >>> >>> Bill >>> >>>> this >>>>> may be essential for some people and the Orca -> Gnome Speech -> Speech >>>>> Dispatcher -> synthesizer aproach has inherent problems. This might >>>>> solve your problem too. >>>>> >>>>> Please, see also the common "TTS API" draft at >>>>> http://www.freebsoft.org/tts-api. This is a common effort of Free >>>>> Desktop and FSG. >>>> >>>> Very very good idea. >>>> Unfortunately, gnome-speech was not very stable, sometimes speech >>>> randomly stops. >>>> And it's true that it will optimize the speech chain. orca -> gnome >>>> speech -> speech-dispatcher -> synthesis was quite long :) And so, it >>>> must be nearly impossible to debug it. >>>> >>>> So thanks very much Tomas for this work ! >>>> -- >>>> Olivier BERT >>>> e-mail: obert01@mistigri.org >>>> Etudiant a l'E.P.I.T.A. (cycle ingenieur, 3eme annee) >>>> Tel: 06 07 69 79 71 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >>>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >>>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >>> >> >> -- >> This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright, terms and conditions and >> e-mail legal notice. Views expressed herein do not necessarily represent the >> views of the CSIR. >> >> CSIR E-mail Legal Notice >> http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_eMail_Legal_Notice.html >> >> CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions >> http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_Copyright.html >> >> For electronic copies of the CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions and the CSIR >> Legal Notice send a blank message with REQUEST LEGAL in the subject line to >> HelpDesk@csir.co.za. >> >> >> This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, >> and is believed to be clean. MailScanner thanks Transtec Computers for their support. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > -- This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright, terms and conditions and e-mail legal notice. Views expressed herein do not necessarily represent the views of the CSIR. CSIR E-mail Legal Notice http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_eMail_Legal_Notice.html CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_Copyright.html For electronic copies of the CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions and the CSIR Legal Notice send a blank message with REQUEST LEGAL in the subject line to HelpDesk@csir.co.za. This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. MailScanner thanks Transtec Computers for their support. From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Tue Jun 27 11:04:08 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C04763B0012 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:04:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04869-01 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:04:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.199]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9A9F3B0133 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:04:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 13so238241nzn for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.22.68 with SMTP id z68mr4475507nzi; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.73.15 with HTTP; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:03:35 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-Reply-To: <1151405912.7083.13.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> <44A07CB2.4090808@sun.com> <44A07EEC.1050109@sun.com> <1151405912.7083.13.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.494 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.093, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.494 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:04:08 -0000 "The very same thing" refers to where you say that disabled users will complain if the onscreen keyboard conflicts with sticky keys. What I am trying to say is that an onscreen keyboard should work whether sticky keys is on or not. Surely an application changing system wide settings just so it can run, is an accessibility violation as the user might rely on non-sticky behaviour on the physical keyboard. In other words one input device should not change the behaviour of all the others. You keep referring to xkblib. To get this to work I would have to change the x config to have an extra keyboard device. The XTest api I am currently using does not allow me to specify which keyboard device I am emulating either. I have difficulty seeing how I could use this. I understand the need for the dialogs. If the system-wide settings are changing then I agree a dialog is needed. This is yet another reason why I do not want to change the system wide settings. I can see why GOK behaves as it does. My opinion though is that it is not acceptable, another method must be found to solve the issue. Bill Haneman said: >Bear in mind that ANY onscreen keyboard that uses the mouse will fail to >work properly when used to pop up menus, etc. via keyboard navigation, >because of system toolkit pointer grabs. Are you aware of that fact? >It will strike your onscreen keyboard as well. This is the reason for >GOK's somewhat brittle configuration requirements, and the reason you >are warned not to use GOK via the system core pointer. I find this difficult to understand, surely pop up menus are a pointer operation to begin with, and that it is possible to emulate this with a physical keyboard. I fail to see the point of emulating this emulation with a pointer. Except if one was using a pointer to emulate a scanning device. Perhaps it would make more sense to disconnect the core pointer when GOK enters it's scanning mode? Maybe it is just impossible to design a one-size fits all onscreen keyboard. As evidenced by GOK, the result is a keyboard that is accessible to everyone but usable by no-one. On 27/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 01:42, Peter Korn wrote: > > Hi Chris, > > > > One more thing. You write: > > > > > Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > > > dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > > > unacceptable. > > > > Have you filed an RFE on this issue (seeking a way to invoke the > > system-wide Sticky-Keys functionality programatically without the user > > dialog box), > > This is trivial to do. If you modify the key via gconf API, either by > linking to gconf or just spawning a gconftool-2 command line, then you > can change these settings without triggering the warning dialogs. If > this has somehow regressed (it has worked on every system I know of, for > several years), then a bug needs to be filed. > > Billy > > > or are you simply trying to "work around it"? I would hope > > that part of a SoC project is to at least file bugs/RFEs for things you > > want, even if you "work around them" for the purposes of meeting a > > project deadline. I would hope that filing bugs/RFEs is part of the > > purview of SoC projects. > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Peter Korn > > Accessibility Architect, > > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > > > > Hi Chris, > > > > > > I think there are two issues here. Well, three: > > > > > > 1. Can an on-screen keyboard implement "sticky" modifiers without using > > > the system support for sticky modifiers? > > > 2. Can an on-screen keyboard circumvent/disable the system support for > > > sticky modifiers (and slow keys, and...)? > > > 3. Is the right way to "fix" what is "broken" in GOK doing another > > > project rather than working with the existing GOK code to "fix" those > > > "broken" things? > > > > > > I suggest that #3 may be somewhat religious at this point; I'm > > > personally saddened that we aren't at least looking seriously at GOK > > > improvements, but fundamentally a goal of UNIX accessibility is to > > > foster the development of a rich accessibility ecosystem - and a rich > > > ecosystem has room for multiple approaches to similar problems (cf. Orca > > > and Gnopernicus and LSR). > > > > > > I have no issues with #1 - I see no reason why an on-screen keyboard > > > cannot have its own way of making certain modifiers sticky on its own > > > user interface *without* doing so through the system-wide setting > > > mechanisms. Such a decision is I think a valid user-interface policy > > > decision of an individual application. > > > > > > However, it is a direct Section 508 violation for an application to > > > override or ignore system-wide accessibility settings. It is even more > > > egregious for an application that claims to be at least in part for > > > people with disabilities (and thus an 'enlightened' application) to do so. > > > > > > > > > So, my suggestion is that if you simply cannot possible use the > > > system-settings for sticky keys as part of your own UI, that you make > > > things sticky your own way; however that if the system-wide settings are > > > on that you use and respect those (complete with the dialog box that you > > > seem to dislike). > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Peter Korn > > > Accessibility Architect, > > > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > > > > > > > >> But this very same thing makes it very awkward who want sticky keys on > > >> the keyboard and non-sticky on a physical. Which would be true for > > >> all non-a11y users and some a11y users. > > >> > > >> In the end though the only manner it interferes with my keyboard is > > >> the annoying dialogue that pops up, and the average gnome-ally user > > >> will probably be plenty used to seeing annoying dialogs anyway. > > >> > > >> The slow keys dialogue however is another matter though. Normal > > >> operations are not resumed until it is dismissed. Which in itself > > >> incredibly annoying. > > >> > > >> When planning the SOK I wanted to stay away from the three odd dialogs > > >> that GOK pops up when it is started. The plain fact is I don't want > > >> any dialogs when starting SOK. At all. > > >> > > >> Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > > >> dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > > >> unacceptable. > > >> > > >> On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >>> On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>> Chris Jones wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>> ... > > >>>>> > > >>>>> In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > > >>>>> for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > > >>>>> SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > > >>>>> fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>> Chris, > > >>>> > > >>>> Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the > > >>>> state internally in SOK? IOW: > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. > > >>> It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build > > >>> an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use > > >>> it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. > > >>> > > >>> If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key > > >>> while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is > > >>> inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a > > >>> problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock > > >>> status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you > > >>> want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. > > >>> > > >>> google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's > > >>> section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. > > >>> > > >>> regards > > >>> > > >>> Bill > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>> 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked > > >>>> SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. > > >>>> > > >>>> 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time > > >>>> the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift > > >>>> is clicked again you unset the flag. > > >>>> > > >>>> That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an > > >>>> 'accessibility violation'. > > >>>> > > >>>> Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? > > >>>> > > >>>> - Henrik > > >>>> > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > >>>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > >>>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From hanke@brailcom.org Tue Jun 27 11:06:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3773D3B0106 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:06:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05080-01 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:06:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp-out4.iol.cz (smtp-out4.iol.cz [194.228.2.92]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 844FA3B00E2 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:06:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from antivir4.iol.cz (avir4 [192.168.30.209]) by smtp-out4.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id E011A743C2 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:06:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (antivir4.iol.cz [127.0.0.1]) by antivir4.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id CADA6240024 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:06:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp-out4.iol.cz (smtp-out-4.iplanet.iol.cz [192.168.30.31]) by antivir4.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88F7C240021 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:06:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.36] (77.93.broadband2.iol.cz [83.208.93.77]) by smtp-out4.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14E2622AF58 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:06:09 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech From: Hynek Hanke To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:04:37 +0200 Message-Id: <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at iol.cz X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.464 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.464 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:06:46 -0000 Hello, I'd like to address a few points. * First, as we discussed on accessibility@freedesktop.org (if someone is not subscribed, you are welcome to join), we want to create a new API to access speech synthesis. This shouldn't be looked at as "yet-another" speech API. Rather, we did some prototypes in Gnome Speech, Speech Dispatcher and KTTSD and found some dead ends and some new requirements. Also, in the Speech Dispatcher especially we found the most clean way to proceed forwards is to split it into two separate parts: one message handling and prioritization and the second interface with speech engines. So with a fresh mind, several people were working on putting down our common (Brailcom projects, Speakup, Gnome, KDE) requirements on such speech API. This document is fairly complete by now and we are at the point when we are starting implementation. The most beneficial way how to contribute to speech synthesis support right now is to help with TTS API and when the infrastructure is in place, develop modules for TTS API. (Not that we will rewrite all modules, I already know the existing Dispatcher modules will require only minor modifications in short term.) This doesn't address the problem of how Gnome applications should interface with it. Either Gnome Speech could be modified to use TTS API or the applications go through some other tool like Speech Dispatcher. I think an Orca module for Speech Dispatcher makes very much sense. An important thing is that both projects are desktop independent. * Another thing several people asked were dates. As for the Orca module for Dispatcher, Tomas already answered the question. The TTS API implementation we hope to have finished in time for the KDE developers to connect KTTS with Speech Dispatcher for KDE4. Also, next major Speech Dispatcher release will already work on top of TTS API and several major improvements will be made to its interface (SSIP). Of course, this is all hopes. * Enrico suggested we should use Festival C API instead of talking to it via TCP. Also Olivier mentioned the whole chain to be too long and source of troubles. However, I suspect the problem is not in the chain being too long as much as in both Festival and Gnome Speech lacking proper detailed logs. In Speech Dispatcher we also use Festival via TCP (actually Gnome Speech doesn't, it runs the binary) and to my experience, this is a good advantage for debugging. It is very easy to log the communication with Festival, so for the developer it is easy to see what went wrong if something does. It is also easy to send very informative bug reports. Also, we have found the connection randomly crashes for no apparent reason. It is indeed far better if we can just detect it, log it and create a new connection and reset the parameters automatically (as we do now) than if such a crash would bring down the whole module (if we were using the C API) for no clear reason. (Another one: in the current version of Dispatcher, sometimes a very mysterious segfault happens. I suspect this has something to do with ALSA, but it is very hard to tell as we link ALSA directly and the crash is not reproducible in testing circumstances...) Now, one of the big problems is that Festival doesn't offer proper logs. It would often refuse connection for a stupid typo in the configuration file and not give any clue to the user. This is something which should be fixed. * The generic output module proved to be very useful. But I must object to the claim that it can do mostly everything. It can talk and provide the basic level of synchronization information necessary for screen readers, but it doesn't support any more advanced things. Users don't notice with Speakup because Speakup doesn't use more advanced capabilities of the synthesizer, but you would surely very soon notice the difference with Festival in clients like speechd-el which use its full power. A native module is much better when someone does it. But TTS API will provide a generic module too and I already have a list of things which I'd like to improve. * I hope the Cepstrall/Swift and FreeTTS modules will be ported under TTS API eventually. At least this was the intention. Have an API that doesn't limit anyone and move everything there to a common code base which we can mantain together. Thanks for attention. I apologize for a long post. With regards, Hynek Hanke From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Tue Jun 27 11:23:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 778703B010A for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:23:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05508-07 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:22:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0D133B009B for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:22:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5RFMMn5028702 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 09:22:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1I00601YM47U@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:22:21 +0100 (BST) Received: from dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM (dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM [129.156.226.143]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1I007X7YP9BI@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:22:21 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:23:33 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: To: Chris Jones Message-id: <1151421813.7842.72.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> <44A07CB2.4090808@sun.com> <44A07EEC.1050109@sun.com> <1151405912.7083.13.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.51 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.088, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.51 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:23:00 -0000 On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 16:03, Chris Jones wrote: > "The very same thing" refers to where you say that disabled users will > complain if the onscreen keyboard conflicts with sticky keys. > > What I am trying to say is that an onscreen keyboard should work > whether sticky keys is on or not. By its very nature, an onscreen keyboard (which will be emulating physical keypresses) will interact with the physical keyboard driver and settings. This means that interoperability with things like XKB is just a requirement of the task at hand. > Surely an application changing system wide settings just so it can > run, is an accessibility violation as the user might rely on > non-sticky behaviour on the physical keyboard. In other words one > input device should not change the behaviour of all the others. I have suggested several alternatives. It is folly to create an onscreen keyboard which emulates physical keypresses and then pretend that it is independent of the physical keyboard - it's just not realistic, since you'll be using Xtest "Fake" API to fake key presses anyway. > You keep referring to xkblib. To get this to work I would have to > change the x config to have an extra keyboard device. That is not true! > The XTest api I > am currently using does not allow me to specify which keyboard device > I am emulating either. I have difficulty seeing how I could use this. Have you read the document section which I recommended to you? It allows you to programmatically change the latch state of specific modifiers, WITHOUT simulating a "press-and-hold". It allows you to do this in a way that does not change the way the physical keyboard works, and doesn't trigger any warning dialogs. XKB is available by default on the XOrg server, so you shouldn't need to change your X configuration at all. > I understand the need for the dialogs. If the system-wide settings > are changing then I agree a dialog is needed. This is yet another > reason why I do not want to change the system wide settings. The dialog does not post anytime the system-wide settings change - it only posts in response to a change which it believes comes from the SlowKeys or StickyKeys keyboard gesture. As long as your keyboard latches keys by simulating a key press and then simulating a release at a later time in the future, you will collide with this dialog, because you are invoking the SlowKeys gesture. Period. If you don't like that you can turn off the keyboard shortcuts, i.e. make it so that holding the shift key down doesn't turn on SlowKeys; however you should not make that the default for new users. > I can see why GOK behaves as it does. My opinion though is that it is > not acceptable, another method must be found to solve the issue. We'll be able to help you better if you are a little more open to our suggestions. Bill > Bill Haneman said: > > >Bear in mind that ANY onscreen keyboard that uses the mouse will fail to > >work properly when used to pop up menus, etc. via keyboard navigation, > >because of system toolkit pointer grabs. Are you aware of that fact? > >It will strike your onscreen keyboard as well. This is the reason for > >GOK's somewhat brittle configuration requirements, and the reason you > >are warned not to use GOK via the system core pointer. > > I find this difficult to understand, surely pop up menus are a pointer > operation to begin with, and that it is possible to emulate this with > a physical keyboard. I fail to see the point of emulating this > emulation with a pointer. Except if one was using a pointer to > emulate a scanning device. Perhaps it would make more sense to > disconnect the core pointer when GOK enters it's scanning mode? > > Maybe it is just impossible to design a one-size fits all onscreen > keyboard. As evidenced by GOK, the result is a keyboard that is > accessible to everyone but usable by no-one. > > > On 27/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 01:42, Peter Korn wrote: > > > Hi Chris, > > > > > > One more thing. You write: > > > > > > > Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > > > > dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > > > > unacceptable. > > > > > > Have you filed an RFE on this issue (seeking a way to invoke the > > > system-wide Sticky-Keys functionality programatically without the user > > > dialog box), > > > > This is trivial to do. If you modify the key via gconf API, either by > > linking to gconf or just spawning a gconftool-2 command line, then you > > can change these settings without triggering the warning dialogs. If > > this has somehow regressed (it has worked on every system I know of, for > > several years), then a bug needs to be filed. > > > > Billy > > > > > or are you simply trying to "work around it"? I would hope > > > that part of a SoC project is to at least file bugs/RFEs for things you > > > want, even if you "work around them" for the purposes of meeting a > > > project deadline. I would hope that filing bugs/RFEs is part of the > > > purview of SoC projects. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > Peter Korn > > > Accessibility Architect, > > > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > > > > > > Hi Chris, > > > > > > > > I think there are two issues here. Well, three: > > > > > > > > 1. Can an on-screen keyboard implement "sticky" modifiers without using > > > > the system support for sticky modifiers? > > > > 2. Can an on-screen keyboard circumvent/disable the system support for > > > > sticky modifiers (and slow keys, and...)? > > > > 3. Is the right way to "fix" what is "broken" in GOK doing another > > > > project rather than working with the existing GOK code to "fix" those > > > > "broken" things? > > > > > > > > I suggest that #3 may be somewhat religious at this point; I'm > > > > personally saddened that we aren't at least looking seriously at GOK > > > > improvements, but fundamentally a goal of UNIX accessibility is to > > > > foster the development of a rich accessibility ecosystem - and a rich > > > > ecosystem has room for multiple approaches to similar problems (cf. Orca > > > > and Gnopernicus and LSR). > > > > > > > > I have no issues with #1 - I see no reason why an on-screen keyboard > > > > cannot have its own way of making certain modifiers sticky on its own > > > > user interface *without* doing so through the system-wide setting > > > > mechanisms. Such a decision is I think a valid user-interface policy > > > > decision of an individual application. > > > > > > > > However, it is a direct Section 508 violation for an application to > > > > override or ignore system-wide accessibility settings. It is even more > > > > egregious for an application that claims to be at least in part for > > > > people with disabilities (and thus an 'enlightened' application) to do so. > > > > > > > > > > > > So, my suggestion is that if you simply cannot possible use the > > > > system-settings for sticky keys as part of your own UI, that you make > > > > things sticky your own way; however that if the system-wide settings are > > > > on that you use and respect those (complete with the dialog box that you > > > > seem to dislike). > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Peter Korn > > > > Accessibility Architect, > > > > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > > > > > > > > > > >> But this very same thing makes it very awkward who want sticky keys on > > > >> the keyboard and non-sticky on a physical. Which would be true for > > > >> all non-a11y users and some a11y users. > > > >> > > > >> In the end though the only manner it interferes with my keyboard is > > > >> the annoying dialogue that pops up, and the average gnome-ally user > > > >> will probably be plenty used to seeing annoying dialogs anyway. > > > >> > > > >> The slow keys dialogue however is another matter though. Normal > > > >> operations are not resumed until it is dismissed. Which in itself > > > >> incredibly annoying. > > > >> > > > >> When planning the SOK I wanted to stay away from the three odd dialogs > > > >> that GOK pops up when it is started. The plain fact is I don't want > > > >> any dialogs when starting SOK. At all. > > > >> > > > >> Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > > > >> dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > > > >> unacceptable. > > > >> > > > >> On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>> On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>> Chris Jones wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> ... > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > > > >>>>> for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > > > >>>>> SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > > > >>>>> fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> Chris, > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the > > > >>>> state internally in SOK? IOW: > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. > > > >>> It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build > > > >>> an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use > > > >>> it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. > > > >>> > > > >>> If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key > > > >>> while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is > > > >>> inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a > > > >>> problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock > > > >>> status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you > > > >>> want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. > > > >>> > > > >>> google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's > > > >>> section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. > > > >>> > > > >>> regards > > > >>> > > > >>> Bill > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>> 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked > > > >>>> SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time > > > >>>> the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift > > > >>>> is clicked again you unset the flag. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an > > > >>>> 'accessibility violation'. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? > > > >>>> > > > >>>> - Henrik > > > >>>> > > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > > >>>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > >>>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > >>>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > -- > Chris Jones > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From gk4@austin.ibm.com Tue Jun 27 14:30:28 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A72123B00D3 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:30:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12403-01 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:30:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e4.ny.us.ibm.com (e4.ny.us.ibm.com [32.97.182.144]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31DEC3B0110 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:30:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (d01relay04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.236]) by e4.ny.us.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5RITbHn001642 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:29:38 -0400 Received: from d01av02.pok.ibm.com (d01av02.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.216]) by d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (8.13.6/NCO/VER7.0) with ESMTP id k5RITbTm271228 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:29:37 -0400 Received: from d01av02.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av02.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k5RITbbJ011163 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:29:37 -0400 Received: from gk4.austin.ibm.com (gk4.austin.ibm.com [9.53.33.16]) by d01av02.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5RITaQf011141; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:29:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech From: George Kraft To: Hynek Hanke In-Reply-To: <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: IBM Corp Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:26:33 -0500 Message-Id: <1151432793.6050.13.camel@gk4.austin.ibm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 (2.0.2-3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.49 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.109, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.49 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: gk4@austin.ibm.com List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 18:30:28 -0000 On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 17:04 +0200, Hynek Hanke wrote: > talking to it via TCP. Are commercial TTS engines sufficiently isolated in this new TTS API proposal? With respect to licensing, can DECtalk and TTSynth be successfully linked to and be used? gnome-speech is providing a nice abstraction. -- George (gk4) From hanke@brailcom.org Tue Jun 27 15:58:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22F743B00A6 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:58:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15469-10 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:58:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp-out3.iol.cz (smtp-out3.iol.cz [194.228.2.91]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 862C93B009F for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:58:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from antivir3.iol.cz (avir3 [192.168.30.206]) by smtp-out3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8F53682A3; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:35:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (antivir3.iol.cz [127.0.0.1]) by antivir3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB58E42000A; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:35:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp-out3.iol.cz (smtp-out-3.iplanet.iol.cz [192.168.30.28]) by antivir3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 909D1420006; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:35:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.36] (77.93.broadband2.iol.cz [83.208.93.77]) by smtp-out3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A9583BEE5; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:35:53 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech From: Hynek Hanke To: gk4@austin.ibm.com In-Reply-To: <1151432793.6050.13.camel@gk4.austin.ibm.com> References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> <1151432793.6050.13.camel@gk4.austin.ibm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:34:24 +0200 Message-Id: <1151436865.3550.6.camel@chopin> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at iol.cz X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.464 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.464 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gap X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:58:48 -0000 George Kraft píše v Út 27. 06. 2006 v 13:26 -0500: > On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 17:04 +0200, Hynek Hanke wrote: > > talking to it via TCP. > Are commercial TTS engines sufficiently isolated in this new TTS API > proposal? With respect to licensing, can DECtalk and TTSynth be > successfully linked to and be used? I'm not sure what is the question exactly? The modules inside the TTS API implementation we are working on are supposed to run as separate processes for licensing reason and for the reason of stability. This however has little to do with the way how interfacing between the module and the synthesizer is done. Also, the paragraph of which you quote a part of a sentence had nothing to do with TTS API nor with DECtalk or TTSynth in my previous post. > gnome-speech is providing a nice abstraction. I'm sorry, I do not understand. Could you please explain? With regards, Hynek Hanke From gk4@austin.ibm.com Tue Jun 27 17:35:38 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE7F43B00D3 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:35:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18161-03 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:35:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e5.ny.us.ibm.com (e5.ny.us.ibm.com [32.97.182.145]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4C563B009D for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:35:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (d01relay02.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.234]) by e5.ny.us.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5RLY8rN016556 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:34:08 -0400 Received: from d01av02.pok.ibm.com (d01av02.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.216]) by d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (8.13.6/NCO/VER7.0) with ESMTP id k5RLXJwK261560 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:33:19 -0400 Received: from d01av02.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av02.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k5RLXIPG001437 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:33:19 -0400 Received: from gk4.austin.ibm.com (gk4.austin.ibm.com [9.53.33.16]) by d01av02.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5RLXIUu001410; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:33:18 -0400 Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech From: George Kraft To: Hynek Hanke In-Reply-To: <1151436865.3550.6.camel@chopin> References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> <1151432793.6050.13.camel@gk4.austin.ibm.com> <1151436865.3550.6.camel@chopin> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: IBM Corp Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:30:14 -0500 Message-Id: <1151443815.6050.42.camel@gk4.austin.ibm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 (2.0.2-3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.499 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.499 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: gk4@austin.ibm.com List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:35:39 -0000 On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 21:34 +0200, Hynek Hanke wrote: > The modules inside the TTS > API implementation we are working on are supposed to run as separate > processes for licensing reason and for the reason of stability. You answered my malformed question. :-) Thanks. George (gk4) From enrico@enricozini.org Tue Jun 27 19:24:26 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD1B13B002A for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:24:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20951-10 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:24:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agnus.ngi.it (agnus.ngi.it [88.149.128.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B51343B006D for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:24:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (81-174-12-206.f5.ngi.it [81.174.12.206]) by agnus.ngi.it (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5RMH2rG021881 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 00:17:03 +0200 Received: from enrico by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FvL1W-0006Xm-74 for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 22:23:06 +0100 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 22:23:06 +0100 From: Enrico Zini To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech Message-ID: <20060627212306.GA24644@viaza> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ibTvN161/egqYuK8" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060403 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.68 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.774, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.558] X-Spam-Score: -1.68 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 23:24:27 -0000 --ibTvN161/egqYuK8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jun 27, 2006 at 05:04:37PM +0200, Hynek Hanke wrote: > * Enrico suggested we should use Festival C API instead of talking > to it via TCP. Also Olivier mentioned the whole chain to be too long and > source of troubles. However, I suspect the problem is not in the chain > being too long as much as in both Festival and Gnome Speech lacking > proper detailed logs. The problem that I've found in the Festival C API is that you cannot have reliable is_speaking testing / end-of-speech notification. Details: Festival can run in two modes: (audio_mode 'sync) or (audio_mode 'async). In sync mode, a (SayText "...") command would block the entire festival engine until the phrase has been fully spoken. That rules out being able to interrupt the speaking, so we don't want it. In async mode, festival runs an audio spooler called audsp as external process, then does the TTS converting text into waveforms, saves the waveforms in a file under /tmp [shivers] and tells audsp to play that file. audsp keeps listening to the pipe while playing, and supports commands like "wait until everything has been spoken" or "interrupt speaking and reset the queue". The communication protocol between festival and audsp is basically one-way, and there's currently no way for audsp to push info back to festival. This makes it impossible to notify that a wave has finished playing. There is also currently no way to ask if audsp is currently playing something or not. Festival is free software, so this is of course fixable. Having looked at the code, it's simple code and it wouldn't break if it'd be stretched a bit. But that's not improving a driver: that's improving festival (if the authors allow) and then having to depend on a very new version of it. So the proper way to implement a festival driver seems to me to use the text-to-wave function and then do a proper handling of playing the resulting wave, hopefully using the audio playing technology that's trendy at the moment. I looked into esd without understanding if it is trendy anymore, and I look at gstreamer without understanding if it isn't a bit too complicated as a default way to play a waveform. Also, not using audsp means that the festival driver wouldn't add another spawned process to keep track of. I don't know much about the APIs of other speech engines. If they all had a text-to-wave function, then it can be a wise move to implement a proper audio scheduler to share among TTS drivers, which could then (reliably) support proper integration with the audio system of the day, progress report, interruption and whatever else is needed. This would ensure that all TTS drivers would have the same (hopefully high) level of reliability wrt audio output. > Also, we have found the connection randomly crashes for no apparent > reason. It is indeed far better if we can just detect it, log it and > create a new connection and reset the parameters automatically (as we do > now) than if such a crash would bring down the whole module (if we were > using the C API) for no clear reason. (Another one: in the current > version of Dispatcher, sometimes a very mysterious segfault happens. > I suspect this has something to do with ALSA, but it is very hard to > tell as we link ALSA directly and the crash is not reproducible in > testing circumstances...) >=20 > Now, one of the big problems is that Festival doesn't offer proper logs. > It would often refuse connection for a stupid typo in the configuration > file and not give any clue to the user. This is something which should > be fixed. This can probably be fixed: festival can be told not to load any config file, and log can be implemented adding a couple of printfs before calls to the C++ API. And something like a TTS driver which becomes the main form of access to the computer should be designed to properly restart in case of segfaults in its own code, be it festival or whatever else. Ciao, Enrico --=20 GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini --ibTvN161/egqYuK8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEoaG59LSwzHl+v6sRAiE4AJ9EA6pT/x65pG8GVK8MHP1PWNaINQCeJOOO Xl+8CXjxfFSxfqqnM1uKRAs= =lEOy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ibTvN161/egqYuK8-- From enrico@enricozini.org Wed Jun 28 09:59:16 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A74633B017A; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:59:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14201-04; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:59:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agnus.ngi.it (agnus.ngi.it [88.149.128.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAA8D3B01E2; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:59:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (81-174-12-206.f5.ngi.it [81.174.12.206]) by agnus.ngi.it (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5SDwIwD028281; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:58:18 +0200 Received: from enrico by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FvaXC-000293-Dz; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:56:50 +0100 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:56:50 +0100 From: Enrico Zini To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Probably found the problem with the Italian synthesis Message-ID: <20060628135650.GA6628@viaza> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060403 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.017, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:59:16 -0000 --fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, might be around here: $ echo "Evviva il Per=C3=BA" | festival --tts --language english $ echo "Evviva il Per=C3=BA" | festival --tts --language finnish SIOD ERROR: damaged env : # $ echo "Evviva il Per=C3=BA" | festival --tts --language spanish $ echo "Evviva il Per=C3=BA" | festival --tts --language italian LTS_Ruleset italian_downcase: no rule matches: LTS_Ruleset: # P e r *here* =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD # $ =2E..especially when this comes out of the log of a crashed orca session: # grep SPEECH debug.out |tail SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Grafica menu' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Up' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Giochi menu' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Up' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Audio & Video menu' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Up' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Accessori menu' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Right' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Alacarte - Editor di men=C3=B9' I'll now try to work on it a bit. In the meantime, I patched audsp in festival to also report the currently playing sample in the playing list. This makes two useful patches that I should start to extract properly and send around, but my main priority is still having a long-lasting Italian speech experience. Ciao, Enrico --=20 GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini --fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEooqi9LSwzHl+v6sRAqtrAJ9y2yxCiWlh3jbH/nxrzqMVyCh9MACghPal qzCsGZJ+BpKwEwJ3zDeEXi8= =FyyJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N-- From hanke@brailcom.org Wed Jun 28 11:14:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B62293B01DE for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 11:14:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17406-01 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 11:14:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp-out3.iol.cz (smtp-out3.iol.cz [194.228.2.91]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E9BC3B0167 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 11:14:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from antivir3.iol.cz (avir3 [192.168.30.206]) by smtp-out3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C22AE81B0; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:12:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (antivir3.iol.cz [127.0.0.1]) by antivir3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E6AA42000C; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:12:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp-out3.iol.cz (smtp-out-3.iplanet.iol.cz [192.168.30.28]) by antivir3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E741420006; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:12:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.36] (77.93.broadband2.iol.cz [83.208.93.77]) by smtp-out3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0EA93BEDB; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:12:27 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech From: Hynek Hanke To: Enrico Zini In-Reply-To: <20060627212306.GA24644@viaza> References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> <20060627212306.GA24644@viaza> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:11:01 +0200 Message-Id: <1151507461.3478.51.camel@chopin> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at iol.cz X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.445 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.445 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:14:13 -0000 > Festival is free software, so this is of course fixable. Having looked > at the code, it's simple code and it wouldn't break if it'd be stretched > a bit. But that's not improving a driver: that's improving festival (if > the authors allow) and then having to depend on a very new version of > it. Hi Enrico, also the problem with speech engines doing their own audio output (apart from what you said about Festival) is that this audio output needs to be configured at several places if several engines are used, many places where code needs to be updated if a new audio technology comes etc. > [...] > So the proper way to implement a festival driver seems to me to use the > text-to-wave function and then do a proper handling of playing the > resulting wave, hopefully using the audio playing technology that's > trendy at the moment. Yes, I agree. Actually this is what both Speech Dispatcher and KTTSD are doing and I think I've heard Gnome Speech would also like to go this way in the future. > I looked into esd without understanding if it is > trendy anymore, and I look at gstreamer without understanding if it > isn't a bit too complicated as a default way to play a waveform. This is fairly complicated. I've investigated into possibilities for audio output and I've ended up sumarizing our requirements if such a technology should eventually come in the future and writing my own small library for output to OSS, Alsa and NAS. Please see http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/accessibility/2005-April/000049.html and feel free to have comments. One of the problems is the latency we need. That ruled out both ESD and Gstreamer at that time, I'm not sure what is the state now with Gstreamer. Another thing is that if we are aiming for a desktop independent speech technology, we need desktop independent audio output. > I don't know much about the APIs of other speech engines. If they all > had a text-to-wave function Most of the engines do. Some don't, but this is their drawback (what if I want to have the audio synthesized and save to a file?). As you said, it is very desirable to retrieve the audio for those engines that support it. > , then it can be a wise move to implement a > proper audio scheduler to share among TTS drivers, which could then > (reliably) support proper integration with the audio system of the day, > progress report, interruption and whatever else is needed. This would > ensure that all TTS drivers would have the same (hopefully high) level > of reliability wrt audio output. Yes, that is mine dream too! Would you be wiling to help with this? I think we would first have to see what is new and consider the options again. > > Now, one of the big problems is that Festival doesn't offer proper logs. > > It would often refuse connection for a stupid typo in the configuration > > file and not give any clue to the user. This is something which should > > be fixed. > This can probably be fixed: festival can be told not to load any config > file This is not really useful. Configuration is really needed. > , and log can be implemented adding a couple of printfs before calls > to the C++ API. That is the log from the side of the speech api provider (Gnome Speech etc.). This already exists in Dispatcher and as I said is automatic from a TCP API. I was talking about logs on the side of Festival. You will never be able to discover why a particular voice was not loaded/doesn't work, why a sound icon is not playing, what is the typo in your configuration files, why is it not finding a module (wrong path) and such from just talking to Festival via its API (be it C++ or TCP). Currently the only way for the users to fix such problems is to run Festival from command line and hope it will write some cryptic message to stderr. Then what is left are guesses, past experiences with problems and black magic. We must be able to diagnose problems. >> [from my earlier post] >> Now, one of the big problems is that Festival doesn't offer proper >> logs. You say you find the Festival C code clear and modifications not difficult. If this could be fixed, that would be superb. I don't think Alan would object to include the patch. And it would not introduce a dependency for us. I don't know however how soon it could get into some official release. But I think it is worth looking into. > And something like a TTS driver which becomes the main > form of access to the computer should be designed to properly restart in > case of segfaults in its own code, be it festival or whatever else. Yes, this is something we tried in Speech Dispatcher, but it doesn't always work. We should get this part right in TTS API. The objection that with the TCP API it is easier to see what part is crashing, after which commands exactly, however remains. With regards, Hynek Hanke From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Wed Jun 28 12:35:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8EC53B03F3 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:35:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21095-10 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:35:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 425753B02C2 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:35:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5SGZSpR001661 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 10:35:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1K00M01WMQ6S@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:35:28 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-9.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.9]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1K00D5UWR30M@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:35:28 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:36:40 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech In-reply-to: <1151507461.3478.51.camel@chopin> To: Hynek Hanke Message-id: <1151512600.7045.91.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> <20060627212306.GA24644@viaza> <1151507461.3478.51.camel@chopin> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Enrico Zini , gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:35:51 -0000 Hi Hynek, All: I'm not sure I agree that speech engines should not do their own audio output. While I think you have identified some real problems with that approach, it's not clear that the ".wav file" approach has a low enough latency. If tests show that latency is not a problem, then passing the synthesized audio bits to the driver for processing (perhaps via multiplexing/mixing in most situations, or for pre-emptive audio in others) does seem to have advantages. Hynek, I think you've also identified a good reason for one of the "many layers" in our architecture... we don't really want a bug in the speech engine to crash our TTS service. Using a C API, even when licenses permit, usually means sharing process space with the driver, and for many drivers the code is closed-source, making diagnosis and recovery very difficult indeed. In such a situation we probably need to implement the process-space separation in our own TTS architecture, so that we can restart the engine when things go badly wrong. regards Bill On Wed, 2006-06-28 at 16:11, Hynek Hanke wrote: > > Festival is free software, so this is of course fixable. Having looked > > at the code, it's simple code and it wouldn't break if it'd be stretched > > a bit. But that's not improving a driver: that's improving festival (if > > the authors allow) and then having to depend on a very new version of > > it. > > Hi Enrico, > > also the problem with speech engines doing their own audio output > (apart from what you said about Festival) is that this audio output > needs to be configured at several places if several engines are used, > many places where code needs to be updated if a new audio technology > comes etc. > > > [...] > > So the proper way to implement a festival driver seems to me to use the > > text-to-wave function and then do a proper handling of playing the > > resulting wave, hopefully using the audio playing technology that's > > trendy at the moment. > > Yes, I agree. Actually this is what both Speech Dispatcher and KTTSD are > doing and I think I've heard Gnome Speech would also like to go this way > in the future. > > > I looked into esd without understanding if it is > > trendy anymore, and I look at gstreamer without understanding if it > > isn't a bit too complicated as a default way to play a waveform. > > This is fairly complicated. I've investigated into possibilities for > audio output and I've ended up sumarizing our requirements if such a > technology should eventually come in the future and writing my own > small library for output to OSS, Alsa and NAS. Please see > http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/accessibility/2005-April/000049.html > and feel free to have comments. One of the problems is the latency we > need. That ruled out both ESD and Gstreamer at that time, I'm not sure > what is the state now with Gstreamer. Another thing is that if we are > aiming for a desktop independent speech technology, we need desktop > independent audio output. > > > I don't know much about the APIs of other speech engines. If they all > > had a text-to-wave function > > Most of the engines do. Some don't, but this is their drawback (what if > I want to have the audio synthesized and save to a file?). As you said, > it is very desirable to retrieve the audio for those engines that > support it. > > > , then it can be a wise move to implement a > > proper audio scheduler to share among TTS drivers, which could then > > (reliably) support proper integration with the audio system of the day, > > progress report, interruption and whatever else is needed. This would > > ensure that all TTS drivers would have the same (hopefully high) level > > of reliability wrt audio output. > > Yes, that is mine dream too! Would you be wiling to help with this? > I think we would first have to see what is new and consider the options > again. > > > > Now, one of the big problems is that Festival doesn't offer proper logs. > > > It would often refuse connection for a stupid typo in the configuration > > > file and not give any clue to the user. This is something which should > > > be fixed. > > This can probably be fixed: festival can be told not to load any config > > file > > This is not really useful. Configuration is really needed. > > > , and log can be implemented adding a couple of printfs before calls > > to the C++ API. > > That is the log from the side of the speech api provider (Gnome Speech > etc.). This already exists in Dispatcher and as I said is automatic from > a TCP API. I was talking about logs on the side of Festival. > > You will never be able to discover why a particular voice was not > loaded/doesn't work, why a sound icon is not playing, what is the typo > in your configuration files, why is it not finding a module (wrong path) > and such from just talking to Festival via its API (be it C++ or TCP). > > Currently the only way for the users to fix such problems is to run > Festival from command line and hope it will write some cryptic message > to stderr. Then what is left are guesses, past experiences with problems > and black magic. We must be able to diagnose problems. > > >> [from my earlier post] > >> Now, one of the big problems is that Festival doesn't offer proper > >> logs. > > You say you find the Festival C code clear and modifications not > difficult. If this could be fixed, that would be superb. I don't think > Alan would object to include the patch. And it would not introduce > a dependency for us. I don't know however how soon it could get > into some official release. But I think it is worth looking into. > > > And something like a TTS driver which becomes the main > > form of access to the computer should be designed to properly restart in > > case of segfaults in its own code, be it festival or whatever else. > > Yes, this is something we tried in Speech Dispatcher, but it doesn't > always work. We should get this part right in TTS API. The objection > that with the TCP API it is easier to see what part is crashing, after > which commands exactly, however remains. > > With regards, > Hynek Hanke > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Wed Jun 28 16:08:59 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B8E03B031A for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:08:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31786-04 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:08:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3FDC3B0511 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:08:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-05.sun.com ([192.18.39.115]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5SK8WXs001460 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-05.sun.com by d1-sfbay-05.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J1L006016EG9200@d1-sfbay-05.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.23.60] by d1-sfbay-05.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J1L00BY16M73330@d1-sfbay-05.sun.com>; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:08:29 -0700 From: Peter Korn Subject: Audio recordings from the CSUN Orca & Open Document Format Accessibility sessions now available Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: Gnome accessibility , FSG Accessibility , kde-accessibility@kde.org, accessibility@freedesktop.org, brltty@mielke.cc Message-id: <44A2E1BD.9010803@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.546 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.052, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.546 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:08:59 -0000 Greetings, After a bit of a delay, audio recordings of the two Orca sessions and the ODF Accessibility Panel are now available, for your listening pleasure. We have them up in Ogg Vorbis format (of course). Please see http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/korn/20060628 for details, links, etc. Thanks to Mike Paciello for securing copies of these recordings. Note: you can also view the video directly, through the TV Worldwide website (assuming you have a Windows system to do so...). Regards, Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Wed Jun 28 17:43:05 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 657283B00A3 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:43:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03179-02 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:43:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.207]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D9E03B00AE for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:43:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id n29so631932nzf for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.97.8 with SMTP id u8mr1894344nzb; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.73.15 with HTTP; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:43:03 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: docked window mode in GOk and SOK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.492 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.092, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.492 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:43:05 -0000 SOK is simple onscreen keyboard I am writing to compliment GOK. It is a summer of code project. I've been trying to implement a dock window mode for SOK like that which GOK has. Unfortunately my effort was met with a plethora of problems. Support for such docked windows is unpredictable under dual screens and can cause windows to get stuck or disappear etc. There's not much I can do about this but file bug reports. Attaching GOK or SOK to an edge which has a panel attached results in a focus "war" betwixt the two. I'm planning to work round this by reading the gconf keys for the panel and adjusting the placement of SOK accordingly. Does GOK have a solution in the pipeline? Can anyone think of a better way to go about this? -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Wed Jun 28 20:09:24 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 411C33B0139 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:09:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09072-04 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:09:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Sun.COM [192.18.98.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A1DD3B016E for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:09:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5T08v08022628 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 18:08:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1L00H01HBGZ1@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 01:08:57 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-116-57.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.116.57]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1L00BEBHQXD3@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 01:08:57 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 01:10:10 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: docked window mode in GOk and SOK In-reply-to: To: Chris Jones Message-id: <1151539810.7061.18.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.58 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.58 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 00:09:24 -0000 Hi Chris: There's no good solution to the "share a dock area" problem. We recommend that you don't use both top and bottom panels when running an onscreen keyboard, for this reason. The straightforward solution is to remove either the top or bottom panel, and then use that edge to dock your keyboard. Otherwise you could waste^^H^H^spend a lot of time trying to work around this. I don't believe there's any way to put multiple docks on one edge reliably unless those docks share code (this is how gnome-panel manages this), or some new IPC is invented whereby the docks can share info (and then you have to convince all the users of _NET_WM_STRUT to implement that IPC - good luck!). The existing X API for struts just doesn't accommodate this scenario. regards, Bill On Wed, 2006-06-28 at 22:43, Chris Jones wrote: > SOK is simple onscreen keyboard I am writing to compliment GOK. It is > a summer of code project. > > > I've been trying to implement a dock window mode for SOK like that > which GOK has. > > Unfortunately my effort was met with a plethora of problems. > > Support for such docked windows is unpredictable under dual screens > and can cause windows to get stuck or disappear etc. There's not much > I can do about this but file bug reports. > > Attaching GOK or SOK to an edge which has a panel attached results in > a focus "war" betwixt the two. I'm planning to work round this by > reading the gconf keys for the panel and adjusting the placement of > SOK accordingly. Does GOK have a solution in the pipeline? Can > anyone think of a better way to go about this? > > -- > Chris Jones > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Thu Jun 29 07:02:44 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A80A83B0078 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:02:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05708-04 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:02:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.198]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98E903B010A for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:02:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 8so140092nzo for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 04:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.140.2 with SMTP id n2mr2793650nzd; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 04:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.73.15 with HTTP; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 04:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:02:42 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: docked window mode in GOk and SOK In-Reply-To: <1151539810.7061.18.camel@linux.site> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1151539810.7061.18.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.492 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.092, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.492 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 11:02:44 -0000 Well I think it is possible to detect if the panel is running through dbus, and it's location is stored in gconf. This should be easy to implement. I've already tested it by hardcoding an offset, all that remains to do is reading the gconf values. I don't quite understand this apathy. No other part of the desktop would put up with such an annoying bug. I don't see why it is acceptable here. On 29/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > Hi Chris: > > There's no good solution to the "share a dock area" problem. We > recommend that you don't use both top and bottom panels when running an > onscreen keyboard, for this reason. > > The straightforward solution is to remove either the top or bottom > panel, and then use that edge to dock your keyboard. Otherwise you > could waste^^H^H^spend a lot of time trying to work around this. > > I don't believe there's any way to put multiple docks on one edge > reliably unless those docks share code (this is how gnome-panel manages > this), or some new IPC is invented whereby the docks can share info (and > then you have to convince all the users of _NET_WM_STRUT to implement > that IPC - good luck!). The existing X API for struts just doesn't > accommodate this scenario. > > > regards, > > Bill > > On Wed, 2006-06-28 at 22:43, Chris Jones wrote: > > SOK is simple onscreen keyboard I am writing to compliment GOK. It is > > a summer of code project. > > > > > > I've been trying to implement a dock window mode for SOK like that > > which GOK has. > > > > Unfortunately my effort was met with a plethora of problems. > > > > Support for such docked windows is unpredictable under dual screens > > and can cause windows to get stuck or disappear etc. There's not much > > I can do about this but file bug reports. > > > > Attaching GOK or SOK to an edge which has a panel attached results in > > a focus "war" betwixt the two. I'm planning to work round this by > > reading the gconf keys for the panel and adjusting the placement of > > SOK accordingly. Does GOK have a solution in the pipeline? Can > > anyone think of a better way to go about this? > > > > -- > > Chris Jones > > > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Thu Jun 29 07:12:22 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 269443B0196 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:12:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06178-06 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:12:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A3A83B0078 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:12:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5TBCIZo017365 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 05:12:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1M00701C9XWA@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:12:18 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-116-82.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.116.82]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1M008FPCGHN4@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:12:17 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:13:31 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: docked window mode in GOk and SOK In-reply-to: To: Chris Jones Message-id: <1151579611.7091.17.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151539810.7061.18.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.58 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.58 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 11:12:22 -0000 Reading the gconf values isn't a fully robust solution, since the panel is not the only thing that might use _NET_WM_STRUTS. It's not apathy, it just that fixing this the right way would require new WM API. Bill On Thu, 2006-06-29 at 12:02, Chris Jones wrote: > Well I think it is possible to detect if the panel is running through > dbus, and it's location is stored in gconf. This should be easy to > implement. I've already tested it by hardcoding an offset, all that > remains to do is reading the gconf values. > > I don't quite understand this apathy. No other part of the desktop > would put up with such an annoying bug. I don't see why it is > acceptable here. > > On 29/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > Hi Chris: > > > > There's no good solution to the "share a dock area" problem. We > > recommend that you don't use both top and bottom panels when running an > > onscreen keyboard, for this reason. > > > > The straightforward solution is to remove either the top or bottom > > panel, and then use that edge to dock your keyboard. Otherwise you > > could waste^^H^H^spend a lot of time trying to work around this. > > > > I don't believe there's any way to put multiple docks on one edge > > reliably unless those docks share code (this is how gnome-panel manages > > this), or some new IPC is invented whereby the docks can share info (and > > then you have to convince all the users of _NET_WM_STRUT to implement > > that IPC - good luck!). The existing X API for struts just doesn't > > accommodate this scenario. > > > > > > regards, > > > > Bill > > > > On Wed, 2006-06-28 at 22:43, Chris Jones wrote: > > > SOK is simple onscreen keyboard I am writing to compliment GOK. It is > > > a summer of code project. > > > > > > > > > I've been trying to implement a dock window mode for SOK like that > > > which GOK has. > > > > > > Unfortunately my effort was met with a plethora of problems. > > > > > > Support for such docked windows is unpredictable under dual screens > > > and can cause windows to get stuck or disappear etc. There's not much > > > I can do about this but file bug reports. > > > > > > Attaching GOK or SOK to an edge which has a panel attached results in > > > a focus "war" betwixt the two. I'm planning to work round this by > > > reading the gconf keys for the panel and adjusting the placement of > > > SOK accordingly. Does GOK have a solution in the pipeline? Can > > > anyone think of a better way to go about this? > > > > > > -- > > > Chris Jones > > > > > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > > > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > -- > Chris Jones > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Thu Jun 29 08:47:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CF183B0275 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:47:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12023-08 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:47:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.205]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F3013B00CB for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:47:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id s1so116679nze for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 05:47:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.77.2 with SMTP id z2mr2949809nza; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 05:47:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.73.15 with HTTP; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 05:47:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 13:47:46 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: docked window mode in GOk and SOK In-Reply-To: <1151579611.7091.17.camel@linux.site> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1151539810.7061.18.camel@linux.site> <1151579611.7091.17.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.491 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.091, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.491 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:47:48 -0000 Agreed but it will do for now. Are there any plans for a new WM API. I don't think we can just leave this. On 29/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > Reading the gconf values isn't a fully robust solution, since the panel > is not the only thing that might use _NET_WM_STRUTS. > > It's not apathy, it just that fixing this the right way would require > new WM API. > > Bill > > On Thu, 2006-06-29 at 12:02, Chris Jones wrote: > > Well I think it is possible to detect if the panel is running through > > dbus, and it's location is stored in gconf. This should be easy to > > implement. I've already tested it by hardcoding an offset, all that > > remains to do is reading the gconf values. > > > > I don't quite understand this apathy. No other part of the desktop > > would put up with such an annoying bug. I don't see why it is > > acceptable here. > > > > On 29/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > > Hi Chris: > > > > > > There's no good solution to the "share a dock area" problem. We > > > recommend that you don't use both top and bottom panels when running an > > > onscreen keyboard, for this reason. > > > > > > The straightforward solution is to remove either the top or bottom > > > panel, and then use that edge to dock your keyboard. Otherwise you > > > could waste^^H^H^spend a lot of time trying to work around this. > > > > > > I don't believe there's any way to put multiple docks on one edge > > > reliably unless those docks share code (this is how gnome-panel manages > > > this), or some new IPC is invented whereby the docks can share info (and > > > then you have to convince all the users of _NET_WM_STRUT to implement > > > that IPC - good luck!). The existing X API for struts just doesn't > > > accommodate this scenario. > > > > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > On Wed, 2006-06-28 at 22:43, Chris Jones wrote: > > > > SOK is simple onscreen keyboard I am writing to compliment GOK. It is > > > > a summer of code project. > > > > > > > > > > > > I've been trying to implement a dock window mode for SOK like that > > > > which GOK has. > > > > > > > > Unfortunately my effort was met with a plethora of problems. > > > > > > > > Support for such docked windows is unpredictable under dual screens > > > > and can cause windows to get stuck or disappear etc. There's not much > > > > I can do about this but file bug reports. > > > > > > > > Attaching GOK or SOK to an edge which has a panel attached results in > > > > a focus "war" betwixt the two. I'm planning to work round this by > > > > reading the gconf keys for the panel and adjusting the placement of > > > > SOK accordingly. Does GOK have a solution in the pipeline? Can > > > > anyone think of a better way to go about this? > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Chris Jones > > > > > > > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > > > > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Chris Jones > > > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Thu Jun 29 08:59:04 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DD563B0078 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:59:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12865-06 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:59:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 178A23B011B for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:59:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5TCwk4T017434 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 06:59:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1M00901HD4HI@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 13:58:54 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-173.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.173]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1M0082MHE5N4@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 13:58:53 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 14:00:07 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: docked window mode in GOk and SOK In-reply-to: To: Chris Jones Message-id: <1151586006.14116.6.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151539810.7061.18.camel@linux.site> <1151579611.7091.17.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.58 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.58 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:59:04 -0000 On Thu, 2006-06-29 at 13:47, Chris Jones wrote: > Agreed but it will do for now. > > Are there any plans for a new WM API. I don't think we can just leave this. The wm-spec-list@gnome.org is the place to take the discussion. Good luck convincing folks of the value of multiple docks on the same edge of the screen, though... seems like a usability misfeature. At least where GOK was concerned it seemed preferable to reduce the number of panels. The second panel in Gnome doesn't add much functionality that couldn't be achieved by just combining the two panels. Of course you can also work around this by putting both Gnome panels on the same edge of the screen, which arguably would result in better usability anyhow. I think there is value in having the onscreen keyboard sit "on its own", having it share the edge with a panel means it's harder for the user to quickly scan for the desired characters. Bill > On 29/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > Reading the gconf values isn't a fully robust solution, since the panel > > is not the only thing that might use _NET_WM_STRUTS. > > > > It's not apathy, it just that fixing this the right way would require > > new WM API. > > > > Bill > > > > On Thu, 2006-06-29 at 12:02, Chris Jones wrote: > > > Well I think it is possible to detect if the panel is running through > > > dbus, and it's location is stored in gconf. This should be easy to > > > implement. I've already tested it by hardcoding an offset, all that > > > remains to do is reading the gconf values. > > > > > > I don't quite understand this apathy. No other part of the desktop > > > would put up with such an annoying bug. I don't see why it is > > > acceptable here. > > > > > > On 29/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > > > Hi Chris: > > > > > > > > There's no good solution to the "share a dock area" problem. We > > > > recommend that you don't use both top and bottom panels when running an > > > > onscreen keyboard, for this reason. > > > > > > > > The straightforward solution is to remove either the top or bottom > > > > panel, and then use that edge to dock your keyboard. Otherwise you > > > > could waste^^H^H^spend a lot of time trying to work around this. > > > > > > > > I don't believe there's any way to put multiple docks on one edge > > > > reliably unless those docks share code (this is how gnome-panel manages > > > > this), or some new IPC is invented whereby the docks can share info (and > > > > then you have to convince all the users of _NET_WM_STRUT to implement > > > > that IPC - good luck!). The existing X API for struts just doesn't > > > > accommodate this scenario. > > > > > > > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > On Wed, 2006-06-28 at 22:43, Chris Jones wrote: > > > > > SOK is simple onscreen keyboard I am writing to compliment GOK. It is > > > > > a summer of code project. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've been trying to implement a dock window mode for SOK like that > > > > > which GOK has. > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately my effort was met with a plethora of problems. > > > > > > > > > > Support for such docked windows is unpredictable under dual screens > > > > > and can cause windows to get stuck or disappear etc. There's not much > > > > > I can do about this but file bug reports. > > > > > > > > > > Attaching GOK or SOK to an edge which has a panel attached results in > > > > > a focus "war" betwixt the two. I'm planning to work round this by > > > > > reading the gconf keys for the panel and adjusting the placement of > > > > > SOK accordingly. Does GOK have a solution in the pipeline? Can > > > > > anyone think of a better way to go about this? > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Chris Jones > > > > > > > > > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > > > > > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Chris Jones > > > > > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > > > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > -- > Chris Jones > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From Evan.Yan@Sun.COM Fri Jun 2 03:30:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22E083B0387 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 03:30:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06467-05 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 03:30:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sineb-mail-2.sun.com (sineb-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.19.7]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1A803B1061 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 03:29:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fe-apac-05.sun.com (fe-apac-05.sun.com [192.18.19.176] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k527TuS2009928 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:29:57 +0800 (SGT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J080000125VLS00@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Evan.Yan@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:29:56 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.158.144.94] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J08003J425W5DGH@mail-apac.sun.com> for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:29:56 +0800 (SGT) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:31:13 +0800 From: Evan Yan Sender: Evan.Yan@Sun.COM To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-id: <447FE941.4080001@Sun.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Can GOK work with autocompletion? X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 07:30:36 -0000 Hi all, I'm now working on a mozilla a11y bug, about autocompletion. The URL of the bug is https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=338242 I'm not sure whether GOK can work with autocompletion. When I input something used before into a textbox, the autocompletion will pop up, could GOK update to show the autocompletion items? I also tried that in Evolution. When writing a email, inputing a mail address which have been in the contact list, the autocompletion pop up, GOK also can't work with it. Is that a GOK bug? Thanks, Evan From alastairirving19@hotmail.com Fri Jun 2 07:41:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 159813B040E for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 07:41:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22456-10 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 07:41:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (bay112-dav20.bay112.hotmail.com [64.4.26.92]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCD603B03DE for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 07:41:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 04:41:17 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 81.129.189.168 by BAY112-DAV20.phx.gbl with DAV; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 11:41:14 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [81.129.189.168] X-Originating-Email: [alastairirving19@hotmail.com] X-Sender: alastairirving19@hotmail.com From: "Alastair Irving" To: Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 12:41:24 +0100 Message-ID: <000201c68639$7a31a6d0$0301a8c0@alastair> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C68641.DBF60ED0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2616 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Importance: Normal X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Jun 2006 11:41:17.0982 (UTC) FILETIME=[7621C3E0:01C68639] X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.544 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.364, BAYES_50=0.001, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST=1.708, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: 0.544 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Problem with orca X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 11:41:20 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C68641.DBF60ED0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello I have just installed orca 0.2.4 on my fedora core 5 laptop. The compilation went without errors. However, when I load orca, it says "orca initialised, switching to focus tracking mode", and then speech stops. I am informed that a message saying that the gnome panel has unexpectedly quit is displayed. I had this same problem with the version of gnopernicus shipped with fc5, but when I reinstalled from source it was resolved. Has anyone come across this before? Alastair Irving e-mail (and MSN): alastairirving19@hotmail.com ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C68641.DBF60ED0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Hello
 
I have = just=20 installed orca 0.2.4 on my fedora core 5 laptop.  The compilation = went=20 without errors.  However, when I load orca, it says "orca = initialised,=20 switching to focus tracking mode", and then speech stops.  I am = informed=20 that a message saying that the gnome panel has unexpectedly quit is=20 displayed. 
 
I had = this same=20 problem with the version of gnopernicus shipped with fc5, but when I = reinstalled=20 from source it was resolved.
 
Has = anyone come=20 across this before?
 
Alastair = Irving
e-mail (and = MSN): alastairirving19@hotmail.com=
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C68641.DBF60ED0-- From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Fri Jun 2 10:57:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D58D13B1189 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 10:57:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01532-10 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 10:57:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96D273B1174 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 10:57:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-04.sun.com ([192.18.39.114]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k52EvGNh007567 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 07:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-04.sun.com by d1-sfbay-04.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0800501LJXA200@d1-sfbay-04.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 07:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.21.165] by d1-sfbay-04.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J08000OEMVDEZ40@d1-sfbay-04.sun.com> for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 07:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 07:57:11 -0700 From: Peter Korn In-reply-to: <447FE941.4080001@Sun.COM> Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: Evan Yan Message-id: <448051C7.7050307@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <447FE941.4080001@Sun.COM> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (Windows/20060308) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.523 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.075, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.523 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Can GOK work with autocompletion? X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 14:57:57 -0000 Hi Evan, This is an interesting idea - having GOK work with auto-completion! GOK has its own work completion algorithm, but that by its nature cannot have application-specific knowledge, and so generally won't do as good a job. The question is, how should GOK show such application-specific word completion, and how do we communicate that between the application and GOK via AT-SPI. Evan, David - any thoughts? Regards, Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. > Hi all, > > I'm now working on a mozilla a11y bug, about autocompletion. The URL of > the bug is > https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=338242 > > I'm not sure whether GOK can work with autocompletion. > When I input something used before into a textbox, the autocompletion > will pop up, could GOK update to show the autocompletion items? > I also tried that in Evolution. When writing a email, inputing a mail > address which have been in the contact list, the autocompletion pop up, > GOK also can't work with it. > > Is that a GOK bug? > > Thanks, > Evan > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > From david.bolter@utoronto.ca Fri Jun 2 15:28:02 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F18553B0210 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:28:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18925-03 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:27:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bureau8.utcc.utoronto.ca (bureau8.utcc.utoronto.ca [128.100.132.18]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B6C63B0B87 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:27:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail5.ns.utoronto.ca ([128.100.132.37] EHLO webmail5.ns.utoronto.ca ident: IDENT-NOT-QUERIED [port 51626]) by bureau8.utcc.utoronto.ca with ESMTP id <25121-29744>; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:25:00 -0400 Received: by webmail5.ns.utoronto.ca id <873031-8996>; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:24:50 -0400 Received: from 64.231.159.101 ( [64.231.159.101]) as user bolterda@10.143.0.52 by webmail.utoronto.ca with HTTP; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:24:46 -0400 Message-ID: <1149276286.4480907eece14@webmail.utoronto.ca> Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:24:46 -0400 From: david.bolter@utoronto.ca To: Peter Korn References: <447FE941.4080001@Sun.COM> <448051C7.7050307@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <448051C7.7050307@sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.638 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_REAL_NAME=0.961] X-Spam-Score: -1.638 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Evan Yan , gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Can GOK work with autocompletion? X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 19:28:02 -0000 Hi guys. Technically I'm on holiday today. I think we could choose an existing event (or propose a new one) for notification regarding this... and GOK could create a key representing the current app-autocompletion. Nice idea guys! cheers, D Quoting Peter Korn : > Hi Evan, > > This is an interesting idea - having GOK work with auto-completion! GOK > has its own work completion algorithm, but that by its nature cannot > have application-specific knowledge, and so generally won't do as good a > job. > > The question is, how should GOK show such application-specific word > completion, and how do we communicate that between the application and > GOK via AT-SPI. Evan, David - any thoughts? > > > Regards, > > Peter Korn > Accessibility Architect, > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > Hi all, > > > > I'm now working on a mozilla a11y bug, about autocompletion. The URL of > > the bug is > > https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=338242 > > > > I'm not sure whether GOK can work with autocompletion. > > When I input something used before into a textbox, the autocompletion > > will pop up, could GOK update to show the autocompletion items? > > I also tried that in Evolution. When writing a email, inputing a mail > > address which have been in the contact list, the autocompletion pop up, > > GOK also can't work with it. > > > > Is that a GOK bug? > > > > Thanks, > > Evan > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Fri Jun 2 16:00:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C770E3B0339 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 16:00:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20811-03 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 16:00:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9B203B015D for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 16:00:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-01.sun.com ([192.18.39.111]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k52JxvUS028281 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 12:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-01.sun.com by d1-sfbay-01.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0900G010IPLV00@d1-sfbay-01.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 12:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.21.165] by d1-sfbay-01.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0900CKK0VV9U10@d1-sfbay-01.sun.com>; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 12:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 12:59:53 -0700 From: Peter Korn In-reply-to: <1149276286.4480907eece14@webmail.utoronto.ca> Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: david.bolter@utoronto.ca Message-id: <448098B9.8080204@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <447FE941.4080001@Sun.COM> <448051C7.7050307@sun.com> <1149276286.4480907eece14@webmail.utoronto.ca> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (Windows/20060308) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.528 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.070, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.528 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Evan Yan , gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Can GOK work with autocompletion? X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 20:00:08 -0000 Hi David, Hmmm... I wonder about using the AccessibleAction interface for this, with a naming convention we might all follow for the . Something like: "auto-complete:" as the action name, where "" is the actual auto-complete text that would be inserted (and thus displayed on the GOK key). Then the tooltip-like window that appears with the auto-complete options would implement the ATK_Action interface. This is more heavy-weight than having a special role for the tooltip-like window with text to be extracted, but it is also less constraining of the user interface implementation that programmers render. Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. > Hi guys. Technically I'm on holiday today. I think we could choose an existing > event (or propose a new one) for notification regarding this... and GOK could > create a key representing the current app-autocompletion. > > Nice idea guys! > > cheers, > D > Quoting Peter Korn : > > >> Hi Evan, >> >> This is an interesting idea - having GOK work with auto-completion! GOK >> has its own work completion algorithm, but that by its nature cannot >> have application-specific knowledge, and so generally won't do as good a >> job. >> >> The question is, how should GOK show such application-specific word >> completion, and how do we communicate that between the application and >> GOK via AT-SPI. Evan, David - any thoughts? >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Peter Korn >> Accessibility Architect, >> Sun Microsystems, Inc. >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I'm now working on a mozilla a11y bug, about autocompletion. The URL of >>> the bug is >>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=338242 >>> >>> I'm not sure whether GOK can work with autocompletion. >>> When I input something used before into a textbox, the autocompletion >>> will pop up, could GOK update to show the autocompletion items? >>> I also tried that in Evolution. When writing a email, inputing a mail >>> address which have been in the contact list, the autocompletion pop up, >>> GOK also can't work with it. >>> >>> Is that a GOK bug? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Evan >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > From Evan.Yan@Sun.COM Sun Jun 4 13:47:19 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DBC03B0149 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 13:47:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00810-07 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 13:47:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sineb-mail-1.sun.com (sineb-mail-1.sun.com [192.18.19.6]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE6513B0130 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 13:47:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fe-apac-06.sun.com (fe-apac-06.sun.com [192.18.19.177] (may be forged)) by sineb-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k54HlBlW001893 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:47:13 +0800 (SGT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-apac.sun.com by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0C00C01JYLYV00@mail-apac.sun.com> (original mail from Evan.Yan@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 01:47:11 +0800 (SGT) Received: from [129.150.145.22] by mail-apac.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0C00D5YK1F36A2@mail-apac.sun.com>; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 01:47:11 +0800 (SGT) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 01:46:27 +0800 From: Evan Yan In-reply-to: <448098B9.8080204@sun.com> Sender: Evan.Yan@Sun.COM To: Peter Korn Message-id: <44831C73.8020402@Sun.COM> Organization: sceri MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <447FE941.4080001@Sun.COM> <448051C7.7050307@sun.com> <1149276286.4480907eece14@webmail.utoronto.ca> <448098B9.8080204@sun.com> User-Agent: Mail/News 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060515) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: Cc: david.bolter@utoronto.ca, Ginn.Chen@Sun.COM, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Can GOK work with autocompletion? X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 17:47:19 -0000 Hi Peter & David, I feel that app-autocompletion is something similar to pop-up menu. Could we leverage the implementation of accessible pop-up menu? I found GOK can update to show autocompletion items under some particular situation, like the following steps: 1. start Firefox and locate to www.google.com, focus on the "search" textbox; 2. select GOK UI-Grab 3. click on the "search" textbox by mouse directly, not through GOK, that makes the autocompletion pop up. Then, GOK will update to show autocompletion items. However, clicking on the items shown by GOK has no effect except collapsing the autocompletion window. Hope this could help. Besides GOK can't work with autocompletion, when autocompletion in Firefox pops up, it takes minutes for GOK to start responsing any action on it. I could see by the event-listener tool of at-spi that there are hundreds of events through GOK and Firefox, it seems GOK are refreshing all the atk objects. is that a normal phenomenon or somthing wrong? Thank you, Evan Peter Korn wrote: > Hi David, > > Hmmm... I wonder about using the AccessibleAction interface for this, > with a naming convention we might all follow for the . Something like: > > "auto-complete:" > > as the action name, where "" is the actual auto-complete text > that would be inserted (and thus displayed on the GOK key). Then the > tooltip-like window that appears with the auto-complete options would > implement the ATK_Action interface. > This is more heavy-weight than having a special role for the > tooltip-like window with text to be extracted, but it is also less > constraining of the user interface implementation that programmers > render. > > > Peter Korn > Accessibility Architect, > Sun Microsystems, Inc. >> Hi guys. Technically I'm on holiday today. I think we could choose >> an existing >> event (or propose a new one) for notification regarding this... and >> GOK could >> create a key representing the current app-autocompletion. >> >> Nice idea guys! >> >> cheers, >> D >> Quoting Peter Korn : >> >> >>> Hi Evan, >>> >>> This is an interesting idea - having GOK work with auto-completion! >>> GOK has its own work completion algorithm, but that by its nature >>> cannot have application-specific knowledge, and so generally won't >>> do as good a job. >>> >>> The question is, how should GOK show such application-specific word >>> completion, and how do we communicate that between the application >>> and GOK via AT-SPI. Evan, David - any thoughts? >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Peter Korn >>> Accessibility Architect, >>> Sun Microsystems, Inc. >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I'm now working on a mozilla a11y bug, about autocompletion. The >>>> URL of >>>> the bug is >>>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=338242 >>>> >>>> I'm not sure whether GOK can work with autocompletion. >>>> When I input something used before into a textbox, the autocompletion >>>> will pop up, could GOK update to show the autocompletion items? >>>> I also tried that in Evolution. When writing a email, inputing a mail >>>> address which have been in the contact list, the autocompletion pop >>>> up, >>>> GOK also can't work with it. >>>> >>>> Is that a GOK bug? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Evan >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >>>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >>>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >> > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From bram@bramd.nl Sun Jun 4 17:55:08 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E18483B01B7 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:55:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13065-09 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:55:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bramd.nl (dsl251-4-101.fastxdsl.nl [80.101.4.251]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72A083B02B6 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:55:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (linux.bramd.nl [127.0.0.1]) by bramd.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54ED5144103 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 23:54:59 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: bramd.nl antivirus Received: from bramd.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (linux.lan.bramd.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n9CAfyI2djAx for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 23:54:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bramdd.lan.bramd.nl (bramdd.lan.bramd.nl [192.168.1.12]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by bramd.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53A33120109 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 23:54:55 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 23:54:47 +0200 From: Bram Duvigneau X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.80.03) Professional Organization: BramD.nl X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1759379234.20060604235447@bramd.nl> To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.464 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.464 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Gnopernicus and the new ubuntu installer X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Bram Duvigneau List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 21:55:08 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: MD5 Hi all, I just tried the new Ubuntu Dapper Drake live cd and the ubuntu express installer with gnopernicus. Gnopernicus is running quite well from the cd, but I had to do a few steps to get the installer talking: - - - Launch gnopernicus - - - Enable assistive technology support - - - Log out and in again - - - Launch gnopernicus from terminal, otherwise gnome-panel crshes - - - Get a root shell with sudo -s - - - Launch gnopernicus from there to ge taccess to the installer So far so good, but when I get to the screen where I can select my location, I'm getting stuck on the combobox of citties. I selected English as system language, therefor I'm only getting citties in the usa. I tried everything, but I couldn't get to citties in Europe. Does someone know how to manage this? Maybe it's also a good idea to change this in future versions to something easier to use for the blind, because this isn't really friendly for new blind linux users. Bram -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6 iQEVAwUARINWqq7p29XxtEd/AQFVmggAg7dwV93Mm1RY0Zh08gzi4AqUBBy4ZfmZ mPvrGkmVHOab2PvLu8wdTqMFBmEmPnmhL1M3nHUCV+eKazALhaAff+jCs3o3Z2th YyQHUcypY1Won/8lxoQvv0el2n33DJg9yfGIjxp0iIs1n5HxSnMf3X2eGKQsGtvi 2n3pR85Zj/pezsTRBMHGNy8H60raMYPY5UascT8H630feZqlMksuSZDxn47cJxLB doPU+i2hUVtY3ZovNANW34jYCEF0Uxux60ZcQUS8tauz0733v3MTeJYuX57iTU+2 5KGRwC9AqRQmS9CiMiuMQwv4QATK6Iy/IyfUBdeBOJyDdZMQmuTzxw== =MsLy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nowindows@terrencevak.net Sun Jun 4 21:29:30 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16F823B0448 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 21:29:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24753-03 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 21:29:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtpout08-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout08-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.12]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 128B23B0356 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 21:29:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 31491 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 01:29:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.223.182.2) by smtpout08-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.12) with ESMTP; 05 Jun 2006 01:29:25 -0000 Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:29:16 -0800 (AKDT) From: nowindows@terrencevak.net X-X-Sender: nowindows@Knoppix To: Bram Duvigneau In-Reply-To: <1759379234.20060604235447@bramd.nl> Message-ID: References: <1759379234.20060604235447@bramd.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.221 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.74, NO_REAL_NAME=0.961] X-Spam-Score: 0.221 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Gnopernicus and the new ubuntu installer X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 01:29:30 -0000 Do you still have the URL for that installer by chance? I'd like to try that instead of the patched-together arrangement I have now, which isn't working too well. Thanks, Terrence From petra@access-for-all.ch Mon Jun 5 01:01:19 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98AC23B0278 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:01:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03080-09 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:01:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from srv94-187.ip-tech.ch (backup01.scalera.ch [195.129.94.187]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F3023B039A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:01:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 26277 invoked by uid 503); 5 Jun 2006 05:08:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blade1-4.iptech.localdomain) (10.10.1.250) by 0 with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 05:08:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 22427 invoked by uid 104); 5 Jun 2006 05:01:10 -0000 Received: from 62.203.161.3 by blade1-4 (envelope-from , uid 408) with qmail-scanner-1.25 (clamdscan: 0.87.1. spamassassin: 2.64. Clear:RC:1(62.203.161.3):. Processed in 0.058345 secs); 05 Jun 2006 05:01:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO LESE-SCHREIBSYS) (62.203.161.3) by blade1-4.iptech.localdomain with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 05:01:09 -0000 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 07:01:12 +0200 From: Petra Ritter X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.0.1.33) Home X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <467747190.20060605070112@access-for-all.ch> To: "gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.136 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: 0.136 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Ubuntu Dapper Drake live cd X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Petra Ritter List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 05:01:19 -0000 Hello, I tried the Ubuntu Dapper Drake live cd, too and I run in to two accessibility problems. 1th If I start Ubuntu with the Option 'Blindness from the Accessebility Men=FC Gnopernicus commes up however the speech does mot work after the system is up and runing. Petra From petra@access-for-all.ch Mon Jun 5 01:25:24 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44F793B03EA for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:25:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04430-09 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:25:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from srv94-187.ip-tech.ch (backup01.scalera.ch [195.129.94.187]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6A063B026A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:25:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 5711 invoked by uid 503); 5 Jun 2006 05:32:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blade1-4.iptech.localdomain) (10.10.1.250) by 0 with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 05:32:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 30910 invoked by uid 104); 5 Jun 2006 05:25:20 -0000 Received: from 62.203.161.3 by blade1-4 (envelope-from , uid 408) with qmail-scanner-1.25 (clamdscan: 0.87.1. spamassassin: 2.64. Clear:RC:1(62.203.161.3):. Processed in 0.055812 secs); 05 Jun 2006 05:25:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO LESE-SCHREIBSYS) (62.203.161.3) by blade1-4.iptech.localdomain with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 05:25:20 -0000 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 07:25:23 +0200 From: Petra Ritter X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.0.1.33) Home X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <14710359560.20060605072523@access-for-all.ch> To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.32 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.144, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.32 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Ubuntu Dapper Drake live cd X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Petra Ritter List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 05:25:25 -0000 Hello , I tried the Ubuntu Dapper Drake live cd, too and I run in to two accessibility problems. 1th If I start Ubuntu with the Option 'Blindness from the Accessebility Men=FC Gnopernicus commes up however the speech does not work after the system is up and runing. 2th I diden't managed to read the Help from Gnopernicus itself. Gnopernicus just diden't read it. The same problem appear in Firefox and in Evolution. It seam thet Gnopernicus cant read any HTML dokument. Assuming the help from Gnopernicus is HTML, too I tried alrady F7 in order to activate the "Carat Browsing" however with no success at all. Is there anything else that I can try to get Gnopernicus to read the Help? Or is there anywhere on the Internet a documentation for Gnome exept the Tabele of the Layers on the Gnopernicus Website? Petra From henrik@ubuntu.com Mon Jun 5 05:20:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACF893B00CE for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 05:20:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17743-10 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 05:20:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 116903B010D for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 05:20:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.0.10] (henrik.gotadsl.co.uk [82.133.122.11]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44EE83392D4; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 10:09:21 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <4483F4C6.8080109@ubuntu.com> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:09:26 +0100 From: Henrik Nilsen Omma User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060522) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org References: <1759379234.20060604235447@bramd.nl> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.591 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.008, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.591 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Gnopernicus and the new ubuntu installer X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 09:20:07 -0000 nowindows@terrencevak.net wrote: > Do you still have the URL for that installer by chance? I'd like > to try that instead of the patched-together arrangement I have now, which > isn't working too well. > The Ubuntu Live CD can be downloaded from here: http://www.ubuntu.com/download That comes in the form of an ISO image that must be burned to a CD, and then boot with that CD. Some instructions on using the accessibility features are here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/doc/StartGuide Note that the system does have some limitations. - Henrik From henrik@ubuntu.com Mon Jun 5 05:25:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43B9A3B031D for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 05:25:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18450-02 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 05:25:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AC5C3B010D for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 05:25:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.0.10] (henrik.gotadsl.co.uk [82.133.122.11]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FB2433AF0D; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 10:19:11 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <4483F714.6040203@ubuntu.com> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:19:16 +0100 From: Henrik Nilsen Omma User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060522) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org References: <1759379234.20060604235447@bramd.nl> In-Reply-To: <1759379234.20060604235447@bramd.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Gnopernicus and the new ubuntu installer X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 09:25:20 -0000 Bram Duvigneau wrote: > Gnopernicus is running quite well from the cd, but I had to do a few > steps to get the installer talking: > > - - - Launch gnopernicus > - - - Enable assistive technology support > - - - Log out and in again > - - - Launch gnopernicus from terminal, otherwise gnome-panel crshes > - - - Get a root shell with sudo -s > - - - Launch gnopernicus from there to ge taccess to the installer > > So far so good, but when I get to the screen where I can select my > location, I'm getting stuck on the combobox of citties. I selected > English as system language, therefor I'm only getting citties in the > usa. I tried everything, but I couldn't get to citties in Europe. Does > someone know how to manage this? Maybe it's also a good idea to change > this in future versions to something easier to use for the blind, > because this isn't really friendly for new blind linux users. > Hi Bram, Thanks for testing and providing this work-around. I've added your description to this page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/doc/StartGuide The Ubiquity installer is basically a very new piece of software with several rough edges. Well done in getting it to work with speech at all using the sudo command. Our goal is obviously to provide a trouble free install path where everything 'just works' as expected. This kind of testing is very valuable in that regard. This is our first attempt ad doing it though, so we expect to have a more polished offering in the October/November release. It would also be useful if you could file a bug about the city combo-box here: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+filebug Thanks. - Henrik From ermengol@gmail.com Thu Jun 8 10:52:26 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E9F53B0524 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 10:52:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13363-01 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 10:52:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.193]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8421F3B0F2F for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 10:52:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so419164wxd for ; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 07:52:23 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=iMykGjuJPdkSVqsogvrI8pNPbnPzh/k/ZlsMh4fYlBeHomvTmrqVXKrE6SJ/1/4w8jwRyEPx1n2j35hZf+ztqo2Hd1/wOT/0G/SyLYWt79JeDd3k2goiEf1W2hRDahYvAQeK0PziznPQKlK2m6XFSXLm7rF3rzK8slShaUb/iqA= Received: by 10.70.100.17 with SMTP id x17mr2173736wxb; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 07:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.43.13 with HTTP; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 07:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 16:52:23 +0200 From: "Ermengol Bota" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.593 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.593 X-Spam-Level: Subject: gnopernicus-magnifier. Full screen magnifier with dummy driver X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 14:52:26 -0000 Hello, I'm trying to use the gnopernicus-magnifier as a full screen magnifier. I followed the instructions at: http://www.gnome.org/learn/access-guide/2.10/apas03.html I did it with the dummy driver, but this approach have a problem and is that you have two displays (one on the left to the other) One display is the zoomed version of the other. But the mouse can move freely from on display to another, so if you are working with the zoomed display and you move the mouse to the left (or right, it depends on X config) then you "move" to the non-zoomed display. And this is a little bit annoying :) Does any body knows about a workaround for this? or any other approach to use full screen magnification on linux? Thanks a lot -- * Ermengol * /*********************************************** * Els ordinadors no resolen problemes, * * simplement executen solucions. * ************************************************/ From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Fri Jun 9 02:15:04 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FC353B00F4 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 02:15:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32071-05 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 02:15:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD48D3B00C3 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 02:15:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-04.sun.com ([192.18.39.114]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k596EsDX009979 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 23:14:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-04.sun.com by d1-sfbay-04.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0K00I01SETE000@d1-sfbay-04.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:14:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([63.207.212.14]) by d1-sfbay-04.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0K00IGLXCT2510@d1-sfbay-04.sun.com>; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:14:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:14:52 -0700 From: Peter Korn In-reply-to: Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: Ermengol Bota Message-id: <448911DC.4090607@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: gnopernicus-magnifier. Full screen magnifier with dummy driver X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 06:15:04 -0000 Hi Ermengol, This is a problem with our current magnification architecture. We are looking forward to magnifiers that are based on several X extensions - most especially the COMPOSITE extension - which will allow us to avoid this bit of hackery. Unfortunately we aren't quite ready with those yet. Regards, Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. > Hello, > I'm trying to use the gnopernicus-magnifier as a full screen magnifier. > I followed the instructions at: > http://www.gnome.org/learn/access-guide/2.10/apas03.html > > I did it with the dummy driver, but this approach have a problem and > is that you have two displays (one on the left to the other) > One display is the zoomed version of the other. But the mouse can move > freely from on display to another, so if you are working with the > zoomed display and you move the mouse to the left (or right, it > depends on X config) then you "move" to the non-zoomed display. And > this is a little bit annoying :) > > Does any body knows about a workaround for this? or any other approach > to use full screen magnification on linux? > > Thanks a lot > From enrico@enricozini.org Sat Jun 10 05:22:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 168EE3B019E for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 05:22:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22030-10 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 05:22:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agnus.ngi.it (agnus.ngi.it [88.149.128.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 705403B0130 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 05:22:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eddie.casa (81-174-12-206.f5.ngi.it [81.174.12.206]) by agnus.ngi.it (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5A9Mn6W017903 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 11:22:52 +0200 Received: from eddie.casa (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eddie.casa (Postfix) with ESMTP id A278D3000BA for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 11:22:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from marvin.casa (marvin.casa [192.168.1.2]) by eddie.casa (Postfix) with ESMTP id 920CA3000B9 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 11:22:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from enrico by marvin.casa with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1FozgF-00037s-00 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 11:22:55 +0200 Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 11:22:55 +0200 From: Enrico Zini To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060610092255.GA9803@marvin.casa> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060403 Sender: Enrico Zini X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.406 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.058, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.406 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Fixing brittle speech support on Dapper X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 09:22:57 -0000 --HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Hello, Hi, I'm Enrico, my current task is to get Dapper to become a usable desktop for Italian blind people. I've been fiddling with the speech accessibility features of Dapper for a few days now, and I found lots of ways to get gnome-speech to hang, Now I'm looking for ways to keep it working. One hanging scenario: - freshly installed dapper, Italian localization - disable esd from preferences/audio - enable accessibility and screen reader from preferences/accessibility - log out and in again - gnopernicus works - disable screen reader (but not accessibility) from preferences/accessibility - log out and in again - orca-setup, works fine, speaks - orca - speech doesn't work anymore. test-speech exits with: Exception Unknown CORBA exception id: 'IDL:omg.org/CORBA/COMM_FAILURE:1.0' getting voice list. Another hanging scenario: - freshly installed dapper, Italian localization - disable esd from preferences/audio - enable 'universe' and install festlex-ifd, festvox-italp16k and festvox-itapc16k to have italian synthesis - enable accessibility and screen reader from preferences/accessibility - log out and in again - gnopernicus works in English - go in the preferences/speech/voices menu and choose the italian female voice for all voices, raise the rate a bit. The female voice speaks when raising the rate. - close the Voices menu, no more speech. test-speech exits with: Exception Unknown CORBA exception id: 'IDL:omg.org/CORBA/COMM_FAILURE:1.0' getting voice list. In test-speech, the Speech Dispatcher output doesn't work. The festival one works, but breaks after a minimum of use, where minimum of use means just choosing the voices I'd like to use. What can I look/try to get myself unstuck? Ciao, Enrico -- GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini --HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEio9v9LSwzHl+v6sRAmOUAJ9bdcQUGWLxi/5ojqTEJaDxYmirpQCgiBtj KWj7kZTPjPpyTXmRLrDZ9Sg= =uxCv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD-- From janina@opera.rednote.net Sat Jun 10 12:22:02 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 732FA3B0237; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 12:22:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14037-10; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 12:22:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (opera.rednote.net [70.84.142.212]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAC243B00F8; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 12:22:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5AGLvPF026152; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 16:21:57 GMT Received: (from janina@localhost) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k5AGLsVu026151; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 12:21:54 -0400 Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 12:21:54 -0400 From: Janina Sajka To: Orca screen reader developers Message-ID: <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Operating-System: Linux opera.rednote.net 2.6.16-1.2122_FC5spksmp Organization: Capital Accessibility LLC (http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com) X-PGP-Key: http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com/JaninaSajka_gpg_key.html X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.276 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.277, BAYES_50=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.276 X-Spam-Level: Cc: blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, speakup@braille.uwo.ca, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 16:22:02 -0000 Mike Pedersen writes: > We have been informed, however, that there can be only one screen > reader/magnifier in the GNOME desktop. > That's a rather outrageous attitude. Who made that decision? Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application? The day may come when there is but one screen reader on the GUI desktop, but I rather doubt it given that both Gnome and KDE are likely to remain with us. However, to proactively restrict inclusion while all manner of other (sometimes only half-baked) applications are included rankles. Frankly, it's an insult. This kind of grudging support for accessibility needs to be stopped right now. In fact, it's a stretch to even call it "support." Do these deciders wonder that people in Massachusetts got so upset last year over the simple move to an open file format. Given this kind of attitude, they'll never change their minds Always remember that just proclaiming, "we support accessibility," doesn't make it so. We will not judge by published proclamations but rather by deeds. -- Janina Sajka Phone: +1.240.715.1272 Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC http://CapitalAccessibility.Com Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada--Go to http://ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more. Chair, Accessibility Workgroup Free Standards Group (FSG) janina@freestandards.org http://a11y.org From henrik@ubuntu.com Sat Jun 10 15:04:59 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F0473B022A; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:04:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21539-04; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:04:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 114EF3B00D0; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:04:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.0.10] (henrik.gotadsl.co.uk [82.133.122.11]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F102339074; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 20:00:56 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 20:01:00 +0100 From: Henrik Nilsen Omma User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060522) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Orca screen reader developers References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> In-Reply-To: <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, speakup@braille.uwo.ca, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:04:59 -0000 Janina Sajka wrote: > Mike Pedersen writes: > >> We have been informed, however, that there can be only one screen >> reader/magnifier in the GNOME desktop. >> >> > That's a rather outrageous attitude. Who made that decision? > > Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media > player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application? > I think you may have misinterpreted this slightly. The idea is that there will only be one official screen reader in Gnome, as there indeed is only one email client (Evolution), one browser (Epiphany), one office suite (gnome office, using abiword and gnumeric). Distributions can, and do, change these defaults and users can install a whole range of options. In Ubuntu we include Firefox instead of Epiphany, OpenOffice instead of Gnome Office, etc. I see no problems with that. Currently we have Gnopernicus installed by default and Orca as an option. For our next release we will likely change that so that Orca becomes the default and Gnopernicus the option. We still package and support a wide range of options beyond that though and we are actively working on several new accessibility tools from scratch. > Frankly, it's an insult. This kind of grudging support for accessibility needs to be stopped right now. In fact, it's a stretch to even call it "support." > This may be true in some areas of the open source world still, that accessibility is an afterthought, but we are working to improve that. An important factor in becoming better at this is learning to collaborate better and work together on common tools. Choice is good in principle, but the price of fragmented effort can be high. Finally, I think you are complaining the wrong audience here (various accessibility lists). All these people are already on your side. If you want to make this complaint it should go to the main developer lists of gnome, redhat, ubuntu, etc. Though that said, I do actually think that gnome is right in their policy on this. Henrik Omma Ubuntu Accessibility Coordinator From aedil@alchar.org Sat Jun 10 15:36:39 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5629C3B0494 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:36:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23108-04 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:36:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from alchar.org (dsl081-071-219.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.71.219]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A24953B03AC for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:36:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 10120 invoked by uid 100); 10 Jun 2006 19:37:54 -0000 Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:37:54 -0400 From: Kris Van Hees To: Henrik Nilsen Omma Message-ID: <20060610193754.GC21840@alchar.org> Mail-Followup-To: Kris Van Hees , Henrik Nilsen Omma , Orca screen reader developers , blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, speakup@braille.uwo.ca, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.395 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, SPF_NEUTRAL=1.069] X-Spam-Score: -1.395 X-Spam-Level: Cc: speakup@braille.uwo.ca, Orca screen reader developers , blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:36:39 -0000 On Sat, Jun 10, 2006 at 08:01:00PM +0100, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > Janina Sajka wrote: > >Mike Pedersen writes: > >>We have been informed, however, that there can be only one screen > >>reader/magnifier in the GNOME desktop. > >> > >That's a rather outrageous attitude. Who made that decision? > > > >Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media > >player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application? > > > I think you may have misinterpreted this slightly. The idea is that > there will only be one official screen reader in Gnome, as there indeed > is only one email client (Evolution), one browser (Epiphany), one office > suite (gnome office, using abiword and gnumeric). Distributions can, and > do, change these defaults and users can install a whole range of options. Not to start a holy war, but a reasonable part of the audience that believes in an alternative to Microsoft Windows also supports the notion of *not* including various other applications and suites. While Gnome is surely not an OS, it seems rather weird (and potentially dangerous) to me to end up with a situation where Gnome has an official screen reader, an official mail client, etc... By including specific official applications and suites in Gnome, you're bound to get into a situation where a large group of people will end up simply sticking to the officially included applications and suites, either by choice (easier) or as mandated by an IT department that takes the "we only run the officially included stuff" approach (all too comon). And in the end... why not simply leave Gnome to be the desktop environment it is, and let users choose what they want? Why does there need to be one official choice, and optional alternatives? I can see where the general public falls for this, and how from a "let's pretend the user is stupid" perspective this can be considered "user-friendly", but I would hope that we (as a special interest group) can express a genuine concern about this type of policy to the powers that be (and that make this type of policy). Kris From janina@opera.rednote.net Sat Jun 10 19:51:16 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B5FA3B018D; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:51:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32643-07; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:51:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (opera.rednote.net [70.84.142.212]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D56C3B00BE; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:51:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5ANnceh017788; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:49:38 GMT Received: (from janina@localhost) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k5ANnb4C017787; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:49:37 -0400 Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:49:37 -0400 From: Janina Sajka To: Henrik Nilsen Omma Message-ID: <20060610234937.GO2259@rednote.net> References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Operating-System: Linux opera.rednote.net 2.6.16-1.2122_FC5spksmp Organization: Capital Accessibility LLC (http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com) X-PGP-Key: http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com/JaninaSajka_gpg_key.html X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.562 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.037, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.562 X-Spam-Level: Cc: speakup@braille.uwo.ca, Orca screen reader developers , blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:51:16 -0000 Henrik Nilsen Omma writes: > Janina Sajka wrote: > >Mike Pedersen writes: > > > >>We have been informed, however, that there can be only one screen > >>reader/magnifier in the GNOME desktop. > >> > >> > >That's a rather outrageous attitude. Who made that decision? > > > >Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media > >player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application? > > > I think you may have misinterpreted this slightly. The idea is that > there will only be one official screen reader in Gnome, as there indeed > is only one email client (Evolution), one browser (Epiphany), one office > suite (gnome office, using abiword and gnumeric). Distributions can, and > do, change these defaults and users can install a whole range of options. > So, it seems I have misunderstood the policy quite thoroughly. I apologize for that. I am not sure the policy of having only one of a kind makes much sense to me, but I certainly do not find discrimination in such a policy when it's even handidly applied across the board. > In Ubuntu we include Firefox instead of Epiphany, OpenOffice instead of > Gnome Office, etc. I see no problems with that. Currently we have > Gnopernicus installed by default and Orca as an option. For our next > release we will likely change that so that Orca becomes the default and > Gnopernicus the option. We still package and support a wide range of > options beyond that though and we are actively working on several new > accessibility tools from scratch. Yes, those are accessibility friendly substitutions, and Ubuntu is to be commended for this. > >Frankly, it's an insult. This kind of grudging support for accessibility > >needs to be stopped right now. In fact, it's a stretch to even call it > >"support." > > > This may be true in some areas of the open source world still, that > accessibility is an afterthought, but we are working to improve that. An > important factor in becoming better at this is learning to collaborate > better and work together on common tools. Choice is good in principle, > but the price of fragmented effort can be high. Indeed so, especially in edge cases such as AT apps On the other hand AT on the Linux GUI is still fairly new, and what approaches will prove truly successful for the user is still to be seen.. We certainly do need to work on cooperation and collaboration, but I suspect we're stronger if we support the option for alternative approaches. I suspect, for instance, that accessibility on the desktop is enhanced because KDE and Gnome were able to agree on the same messaging SPI, while continuing to remain autonomous and distinctive desktops. > > Finally, I think you are complaining the wrong audience here (various > accessibility lists). All these people are already on your side. If you > want to make this complaint it should go to the main developer lists of > gnome, redhat, ubuntu, etc. Though that said, I do actually think that > gnome is right in their policy on this. While I apologize for seeing injustice where there clearly isn't any, I still remain unconvinced that an "only one of a kind" policy is the smarter policy. Different issue, of course. Janina > > Henrik Omma > Ubuntu Accessibility Coordinator > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list -- Janina Sajka Phone: +1.240.715.1272 Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC http://CapitalAccessibility.Com Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada--Go to http://ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more. Chair, Accessibility Workgroup Free Standards Group (FSG) janina@freestandards.org http://a11y.org From janina@opera.rednote.net Sat Jun 10 19:59:29 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C29053B02E3; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:59:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00741-06; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:59:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (opera.rednote.net [70.84.142.212]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED43C3B01AE; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:59:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5ANwDVd017891; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:58:13 GMT Received: (from janina@localhost) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k5ANwAA3017890; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:58:10 -0400 Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:58:10 -0400 From: Janina Sajka To: Kris Van Hees , Henrik Nilsen Omma , Orca screen reader developers , blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, speakup@braille.uwo.ca, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060610235810.GP2259@rednote.net> References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> <20060610193754.GC21840@alchar.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060610193754.GC21840@alchar.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Operating-System: Linux opera.rednote.net 2.6.16-1.2122_FC5spksmp Organization: Capital Accessibility LLC (http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com) X-PGP-Key: http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com/JaninaSajka_gpg_key.html X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.565 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.034, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.565 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:59:30 -0000 Thanks, Kris, for getting at the real issue that I missed. I must indeed agree with you. I, for one, am glad that there are dozens of sopas at the store, and several airlines to fly across the Atlantic. I understand it's harder to support choice in distributions and desktops, but I believe it's essential so to do, if for no other reason than it makes us think harder to get the important things right. It's not important that we all use the same email client, for instance, but it is important that we can read email from anyone. I believe the latter is at risk when we allow ourselves the ease of the former. Janina Kris Van Hees writes: > On Sat, Jun 10, 2006 at 08:01:00PM +0100, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > > Janina Sajka wrote: > > >Mike Pedersen writes: > > >>We have been informed, however, that there can be only one screen > > >>reader/magnifier in the GNOME desktop. > > >> > > >That's a rather outrageous attitude. Who made that decision? > > > > > >Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media > > >player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application? > > > > > I think you may have misinterpreted this slightly. The idea is that > > there will only be one official screen reader in Gnome, as there indeed > > is only one email client (Evolution), one browser (Epiphany), one office > > suite (gnome office, using abiword and gnumeric). Distributions can, and > > do, change these defaults and users can install a whole range of options. > > Not to start a holy war, but a reasonable part of the audience that believes in > an alternative to Microsoft Windows also supports the notion of *not* including > various other applications and suites. While Gnome is surely not an OS, it > seems rather weird (and potentially dangerous) to me to end up with a situation > where Gnome has an official screen reader, an official mail client, etc... > By including specific official applications and suites in Gnome, you're bound > to get into a situation where a large group of people will end up simply > sticking to the officially included applications and suites, either by choice > (easier) or as mandated by an IT department that takes the "we only run the > officially included stuff" approach (all too comon). > > And in the end... why not simply leave Gnome to be the desktop environment it > is, and let users choose what they want? Why does there need to be one > official choice, and optional alternatives? I can see where the general public > falls for this, and how from a "let's pretend the user is stupid" perspective > this can be considered "user-friendly", but I would hope that we (as a special > interest group) can express a genuine concern about this type of policy to > the powers that be (and that make this type of policy). > > Kris > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list -- Janina Sajka Phone: +1.240.715.1272 Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC http://CapitalAccessibility.Com Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada--Go to http://ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more. Chair, Accessibility Workgroup Free Standards Group (FSG) janina@freestandards.org http://a11y.org From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Sat Jun 10 20:41:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 176D53B0333; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 20:41:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01799-06; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 20:41:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E8193B000B; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 20:41:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5B0eQlh002102; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:40:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0O00301724OH00@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM); Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.23.100] by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0O00MYQ77DT140@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:40:23 -0700 From: Peter Korn In-reply-to: <20060610193754.GC21840@alchar.org> Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: Kris Van Hees , Henrik Nilsen Omma , Orca screen reader developers , blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, speakup@braille.uwo.ca, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-id: <448B6677.2010400@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> <20060610193754.GC21840@alchar.org> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.532 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.066, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.532 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:41:51 -0000 Greetings, To toss my $0.02 into this discussion... It has proven very useful to the GNOME accessibility project - and to advancing the support for assistive technologies and the implementation of ATK and AT-SPI - to have a screen reader, screen magnifier, and on-screen keyboard included as a formal part of GNOME. By 'blessing' AT in these categories, it has brought far greater awareness of AT to GNOME developers & UNIX distributions, and has led to a lot of compatibility testing, bug finding, and bug fixing. Given that it is general GNOME policy to make one product in any given category the 'default' product that a formal part of the GNOME desktop, I am personally delighted that they have chosen to create such a category for screen reader, screen magnifier, on-screen keyboard, and text-input alternative (Dasher). Regards, Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. > On Sat, Jun 10, 2006 at 08:01:00PM +0100, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > >> Janina Sajka wrote: >> >>> Mike Pedersen writes: >>> >>>> We have been informed, however, that there can be only one screen >>>> reader/magnifier in the GNOME desktop. >>>> >>>> >>> That's a rather outrageous attitude. Who made that decision? >>> >>> Are they also prepared to have only one web browser? ONly one media >>> player? ONly one word processor? Only one email client application? >>> >>> >> I think you may have misinterpreted this slightly. The idea is that >> there will only be one official screen reader in Gnome, as there indeed >> is only one email client (Evolution), one browser (Epiphany), one office >> suite (gnome office, using abiword and gnumeric). Distributions can, and >> do, change these defaults and users can install a whole range of options. >> > > Not to start a holy war, but a reasonable part of the audience that believes in > an alternative to Microsoft Windows also supports the notion of *not* including > various other applications and suites. While Gnome is surely not an OS, it > seems rather weird (and potentially dangerous) to me to end up with a situation > where Gnome has an official screen reader, an official mail client, etc... > By including specific official applications and suites in Gnome, you're bound > to get into a situation where a large group of people will end up simply > sticking to the officially included applications and suites, either by choice > (easier) or as mandated by an IT department that takes the "we only run the > officially included stuff" approach (all too comon). > > And in the end... why not simply leave Gnome to be the desktop environment it > is, and let users choose what they want? Why does there need to be one > official choice, and optional alternatives? I can see where the general public > falls for this, and how from a "let's pretend the user is stupid" perspective > this can be considered "user-friendly", but I would hope that we (as a special > interest group) can express a genuine concern about this type of policy to > the powers that be (and that make this type of policy). > > Kris > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > From j.schmude@gmail.com Sat Jun 10 22:51:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23ED53B05B3 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 22:51:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06037-02 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 22:51:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.202]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE23C3B0588 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 22:51:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id x7so970474nzc for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:50:26 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:content-type:to:from:subject:date:x-mailer; b=FkqiqwKYV6jqK72JUrYg6R4e7hAicwZR5NrV2Ya/FTkAp+FAActyboT3lmnBTCnhOO8zyQRZQqb0J0UP6tn8AxcJBBUNVRInZ90Hy9BvWFsvwF37FNONyt7PwEuLcs3TOK+3uGZ/mAdzwmuvbgn8mb1ql7peqrgAsgKNgjZAhjs= Received: by 10.36.215.18 with SMTP id n18mr6512883nzg; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.0.11? ( [70.162.106.212]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 37sm786308nzf.2006.06.10.19.21.46; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <4E366E31-2C86-4DB3-AEC7-99660ACF8047@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org (Gnome accessibility ) From: Jacob Schmude Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:27:49 -0700 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Orca and 3rd party Emacspeak Servers X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 02:51:03 -0000 Hi everyone I thought I'd try the emacspeak server support in Orca to see if it would use my doubletalk LT synth. However, Orca only lists the speech servers that come standard with Emacspeak. The emacspeak-ss package add support for many more synthesizers than simply dectalk varients. Is there a way to get these listed in Orca as well or, failing that, have perhaps an "other" option in the list that would allow me to enter a different speech server? I'm going to play with it a bit, maybe I can edit the settings file to make it run anyway. Thanks From dmehler26@woh.rr.com Sun Jun 11 00:12:17 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DC9E3B03FB for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:12:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09104-04 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:12:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ms-smtp-03.ohiordc.rr.com (ms-smtp-03.ohiordc.rr.com [65.24.5.137]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B9C33B00A6 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:12:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from satellite (cpe-65-31-41-159.woh.res.rr.com [65.31.41.159]) by ms-smtp-03.ohiordc.rr.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id k5B3QTul013111 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:26:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <00af01c68d05$29efeba0$0200a8c0@satellite> From: "Dave" To: Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:14:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.069 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=1.069, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001, TW_CV=0.077, TW_DL=0.077, TW_GD=0.077, TW_GT=0.077, TW_LG=0.077, TW_VF=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -1.069 X-Spam-Level: Subject: gnopernicus, java, and access bridge on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Dave List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 04:12:17 -0000 Hello, My name is Dave. I'm a sysadmin with six years Unix experience, FreeBSD and Linux mostly. So far my experience has been with setting up server platforms for FreeBSD for the purposes of this message and not workstations requiring x. A while back when i did it using XFree86 i was unsuccessful. Now i want to replace some Linux fc4 workstations with FreeBSD. I've got xorg configured, gnome starting, and gnopernicus up and running. I'm almost certain i don't have all the accessibility hooks turned on, but i will undoubtedly learn about those as i investigate apps. I want to do as many installs using the FreeBSD ports infrastructure as i feel this would make system upkeep much easier. I'd like access to java apps, using the access bridge. I've installed the jdk 1.5, but when i atempt to compile access bridge i am getting "Error illegal option x" The full output of the compilation atempt is below. If anyone has this working i'd appreciate hearing from you. I'd eventually like to have access to openoffice2 using java as well. Thanks. Dave. compilation: # ./configure checking for a BSD-compatible install... /usr/bin/install -c checking whether build environment is sane... yes checking whether make sets $(MAKE)... yes checking for working aclocal-1.4... missing checking for working autoconf... missing checking for working automake-1.4... missing checking for working autoheader... missing checking for working makeinfo... found checking for java... java checking JDK version... 1.5.0 checking for javac... javac JRE_HOME appears to be /usr/local/bin/jre checking for idlj... idlj checking for jar... jar checking for pkg-config... /usr/local/bin/pkg-config checking for bonobo-activation-2.0 libspi-1.0 >= 1.7.0... yes checking JAVA_BRIDGE_CFLAGS... -DORBIT2=1 -D_REENTRANT -DXTHREADS -DXUSE_MTSAFE_API -I/usr/local/include/bonobo-activation-2.0 -I/usr/local/include/glib-2.0 -I/usr/local/lib/glib-2.0/include -I/usr/local/include/orbit-2.0 -I/usr/local/include/libbonobo-2.0 -I/usr/local/include/atk-1.0 -I/usr/local/include/cairo -I/usr/X11R6/include/at-spi-1.0 -I/usr/X11R6/include/gtk-2.0 -I/usr/X11R6/lib/gtk-2.0/include -I/usr/X11R6/include/pango-1.0 -I/usr/X11R6/include -I/usr/local/include/freetype2 -I/usr/local/include checking JAVA_BRIDGE_LIBS... -pthread -Wl,--rpath -Wl,/usr/local/lib -L/usr/local/lib -L/usr/X11R6/lib -lspi -lbonobo-2 -lgtk-x11-2.0 -lbonobo-activation -lORBit-2 -lgthread-2.0 -lgdk-x11-2.0 -lXrandr -lXi -lXinerama -latk-1.0 -lgdk_pixbuf-2.0 -lpangocairo-1.0 -lXcursor -lXfixes -lcairo -lpangoft2-1.0 -lfontconfig -lfreetype -lz -lpango-1.0 -lm -lXrender -lX11 -lXext -lgobject-2.0 -lgmodule-2.0 -lglib-2.0 -liconv configure: creating ./config.status config.status: creating Makefile config.status: creating idlgen/Makefile config.status: creating idlgen/org/Makefile config.status: creating idlgen/org/GNOME/Makefile config.status: creating idlgen/org/GNOME/Accessibility/Makefile config.status: creating idlgen/org/GNOME/Bonobo/Makefile config.status: creating util/Makefile config.status: creating util/org/Makefile config.status: creating util/org/GNOME/Makefile config.status: creating util/org/GNOME/Accessibility/Makefile config.status: creating impl/Makefile config.status: creating impl/org/Makefile config.status: creating impl/org/GNOME/Makefile config.status: creating impl/org/GNOME/Accessibility/Makefile config.status: creating impl/org/GNOME/Bonobo/Makefile config.status: creating bridge/Makefile config.status: creating bridge/org/Makefile config.status: creating bridge/org/GNOME/Makefile config.status: creating bridge/org/GNOME/Accessibility/Makefile config.status: creating at-client/Makefile config.status: creating at-client/org/Makefile config.status: creating at-client/org/GNOME/Makefile config.status: creating at-client/org/GNOME/Accessibility/Makefile config.status: creating registry/Makefile config.status: creating registry/org/Makefile config.status: creating registry/org/GNOME/Makefile config.status: creating registry/org/GNOME/Accessibility/Makefile config.status: creating test/Makefile [root@titan /usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0]# gmake Making all in idlgen gmake[1]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen' Making all in org gmake[2]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org' Making all in GNOME gmake[3]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME' Making all in Accessibility gmake[4]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Accessibility' gmake[4]: Nothing to be done for `all'. gmake[4]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Accessibility' Making all in Bonobo gmake[4]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Bonobo' gmake[4]: Nothing to be done for `all'. gmake[4]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Bonobo' gmake[4]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME' gmake[4]: Nothing to be done for `all-am'. gmake[4]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME' gmake[3]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME' gmake[3]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org' gmake[3]: Nothing to be done for `all-am'. gmake[3]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org' gmake[2]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org' gmake[2]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen' idlj \ -pkgPrefix Bonobo org.GNOME \ -pkgPrefix Accessibility org.GNOME \ -emitAll -i /usr/local/share/idl/bonobo-activation-2.0 -i /usr/X11R6/share/gnome/idl/at-spi-1.0 -i /usr/local/share/idl/bonobo-2.0 \ -fallTie /usr/X11R6/share/gnome/idl/at-spi-1.0/Accessibility.idl com.sun.tools.corba.se.idl.InvalidArgument: Invalid rgument: -XX:+UseMembar. Compiler Usage: java com.sun.tools.corba.se.idl.toJavaPortable.Compile [options] where is the name of a file containing IDL definitions, and [options] is any combination of the options listed below. The options are optional and may appear in any order; is required and must appear last. Options: -d This is equivalent to the following line in an IDL file: #define -emitAll Emit all types, including those found in #included files. -f Define what bindings to emit. is one of client, server, all, serverTIE, allTIE. serverTIE and allTIE cause delegate model skeletons to be emitted. If this flag is not used, -fclient is assumed. -i By default, the current directory is scanned for included files. This option adds another directory. -keep If a file to be generated already exists, do not overwrite it. By default it is overwritten. -noWarn Suppress warnings. -oldImplBase Generate skeletons compatible with old (pre-1.4) JDK ORBs. -pkgPrefix When the type or module name is encountered at file scope, begin the Java package name for all files generated for with . -pkgTranslate When the type or module name in encountered, replace it with in the generated java package. Note that pkgPrefix changes are made first. must match the full package name exactly. Also, must not be org, org.omg, or any subpackage of org.omg. -skeletonName Name the skeleton according to the pattern. The defaults are: %POA for the POA base class (-fserver or -fall) _%ImplBase for the oldImplBase base class (-oldImplBase and (-fserver or -fall)). -td use for the output directory instead of the current directory. -tieName Name the tie according to the pattern. The defaults are: %POATie for the POA tie (-fserverTie or -fallTie) %_Tie for the oldImplBase tie (-oldImplBase and (-fserverTie or -fallTie)). -v, -verbose Verbose mode. -version Display the version number and quit. gmake[3]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Bonobo' gmake[3]: Nothing to be done for `all'. gmake[3]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Bonobo' gmake[3]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Accessibility' gmake[3]: Nothing to be done for `all'. gmake[3]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen/org/GNOME/Accessibility' touch ../jar-stamp touch ../jar-stamp jar cf ../gnome-java-bridge.jar org/GNOME/Bonobo/*.class org/GNOME/Accessibility/*.class Illegal option: X Usage: jar {ctxu}[vfm0Mi] [jar-file] [manifest-file] [-C dir] files ... Options: -c create new archive -t list table of contents for archive -x extract named (or all) files from archive -u update existing archive -v generate verbose output on standard output -f specify archive file name -m include manifest information from specified manifest file -0 store only; use no ZIP compression -M do not create a manifest file for the entries -i generate index information for the specified jar files -C change to the specified directory and include the following file If any file is a directory then it is processed recursively. The manifest file name and the archive file name needs to be specified in the same order the 'm' and 'f' flags are specified. Example 1: to archive two class files into an archive called classes.jar: jar cvf classes.jar Foo.class Bar.class Example 2: use an existing manifest file 'mymanifest' and archive all the files in the foo/ directory into 'classes.jar': jar cvfm classes.jar mymanifest -C foo/ . gmake[2]: *** [../gnome-java-bridge.jar] Error 1 gmake[2]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen' gmake[1]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1 gmake[1]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/temp/java-access-bridge-1.5.0/idlgen' gmake: *** [all-recursive] Error 1 From henrik@ubuntu.com Sun Jun 11 07:38:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FC053B0641; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 07:38:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07029-08; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 07:38:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17EBD3B0168; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 07:38:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.0.10] (henrik.gotadsl.co.uk [82.133.122.11]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7428339335; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 12:37:30 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <448C007D.9030400@ubuntu.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 12:37:33 +0100 From: Henrik Nilsen Omma User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060522) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Orca screen reader developers References: <447F2C89.8090507@sun.com> <20060610162154.GG2259@rednote.net> <448B16EC.9040300@ubuntu.com> <20060610193754.GC21840@alchar.org> <448B6677.2010400@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <448B6677.2010400@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.593 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.006, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.593 X-Spam-Level: Cc: blinux-list-bounces@redhat.com, FSG Accessibility , ma-linux@tux.org, speakup@braille.uwo.ca, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: getting orca included in gnome 2.16 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 11:38:41 -0000 Peter Korn wrote: > It has proven very useful to the GNOME accessibility project - and to > advancing the support for assistive technologies and the > implementation of ATK and AT-SPI - to have a screen reader, screen > magnifier, and on-screen keyboard included as a formal part of GNOME. > By 'blessing' AT in these categories, it has brought far greater > awareness of AT to GNOME developers & UNIX distributions, and has led > to a lot of compatibility testing, bug finding, and bug fixing. We have seen the effects of this esp. in the last release cycle when we have now managed to get a range of accessibility tools into the default install and running from the Live CD. Other developers, such as those specialising in the Live CD, the installer and the Gnome desktop have taken an interest and are helping us solve the problems. For our next development cycle we now have several specifications on the main development track (see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Specs) I think custom distributions like Oralux can focus on adding as much assistive technology as possible to a single CD and let the user explore it all. For a main stream distro though, I think we need to make choices about what we consider to be most suitable at this time, and leave the rest as options. Picking favourites is actually an important part of what we do because it allows us to focus our efforts better on providing support and fixes on those packages. - Henrik From William.Walker@Sun.COM Sun Jun 11 19:53:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C98A93B00BC; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 19:53:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09467-02; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 19:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 656553B00B7; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 19:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fe-amer-06.sun.com ([192.18.108.180]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5BNqQ6B020577; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:52:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0P00M01Y1KY900@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from William.Walker@Sun.COM); Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:52:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.1.105] ([68.116.197.173]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0P0097BZN5LTZ1@mail-amer.sun.com>; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:52:26 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 19:52:16 -0400 From: Willie Walker Sender: William.Walker@Sun.COM To: orca-list@gnome.org, gnome-announce-list@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-id: <1150069937.5071.4.camel@localhost> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.587 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.011, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.587 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Announcing Orca 0.2.5 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 23:53:34 -0000 ================ * What is Orca ? ================ Orca is a scriptable screen reader for the GNOME desktop for people with visual impairments. ================== * What's changed ? ================== We've done a lot of work on Orca since the last release in both the new functionality and quality/stability departments. We thank all of our users that are providing feedback on gnome-list@gnome.org (see http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list) as well as http://bugzilla.gnome.org. We value all of your feedback and help. We also appreciate contributions from community members, including Al Puzzuoli who is doing a great job helping with the Orca Wiki at http://live.gnome.org/Orca and Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez who has been testing and providing patches. Thank you all! ================== Orca 0.2.5 Changes ================== * Re-map keyboard bindings and add additional keyboard bindings. See http://live.gnome.org/Orca/KeyboardCommands for the list. * Improvements to StarOffice support to provide better access to text documents and spreadsheets. Also get rid of spurious "0.00" text that was showing up in braille for StarOffice buttons. * Addition of announcing text selection as it is selected and unselected. * Generalize the "read table cell row" functionality. If you press Insert+F11, it will toggle the feature to read the entire row of a table or just the selected table cell when you move from row to row. * Improved support for SayAll of text objects (SayAll for flat review is still on the to do list). * Addition of self-voicing module to tell Orca to be quiet when a self-voicing application is present. * Addition of ability to turn Orca into a speech server that can accessed via simple HTTP commands (default port is 20433, but this is customizable via orca.settings.speechServerPort). This will allow self-voicing applications to use Orca for their speech, thus letting them get the user's speech settings preferences. * Addition of orca.settings.enableBrailleGrouping (default=False). NOTE: this represents a change in the UI for Orca - the behavior to date has been to always group menu items on the braille display. The system responsiveness was bad for large menus, however, so we decided to make this an optional feature turned off by default. * Addition of utility to report information on the currently active script. This is primarily for helping script writers do debugging and is accessed by pressing Insert+F3. * Addition of orca.settings.cacheAccessibles (default=True) as a means to turn the local caching of accessible objects on or off. This is primarily an Orca developer debugging feature. * Fix for bug 344218 - gnome-terminal would not be presented properly if it was started after Orca. * Fix for bug 343666: pressing buttons on braille displays could cause a hang. * Partial fix for bug 342022 - provide some defensive mechanisms to help prevent some hangs. * Fix for bug 343133 - do not hang when doing a flat-review of a man page in gnome-terminal. * Fix for bug #343013 - the command line option strings should not be translatable. * Partial fix for bug 319652 - become a better Python thread citizen to help reduce hangs. * Fix for bug 342303 - stop speech when the user presses the mouse button. * Fix for bug 342122 - use all labels for an objecty when presenting an object. * Fix for bug 342133 - do not read all labels in gnome-window-properties application when it appears. * Fix for bug 341415 - when moving between workspaces with metacity, eliminate redundant output and alsomake sure workspace names are announced. * Refactor of various modules to move script writing utilities into util.py. * More fleshing out of the test plan. ====================== * Where can I get it ? ====================== Source code: http://ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/sources/orca/0.2/orca-0.2.5.tar.gz Enjoy. Will, Mike, Rich, Lynn, and the Orca community From rd@baum.ro Mon Jun 12 04:21:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B89BD3B00EC for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 04:21:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26018-07 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 04:21:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from main.baum.ro (dnt-gw-baum.dnttm.ro [83.103.190.186]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E47273B00D4 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 04:21:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.0.104] ([82.77.32.51]) by main.baum.ro (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5C7d8Yc010617; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 10:39:08 +0300 From: remus draica To: Dave In-Reply-To: <00af01c68d05$29efeba0$0200a8c0@satellite> References: <00af01c68d05$29efeba0$0200a8c0@satellite> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:20:40 -0400 Message-Id: <1150125641.4877.19.camel@ubuntu> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.573 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.854, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_FUTURE_06_12=1.668, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, TW_DL=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -1.573 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: gnopernicus, java, and access bridge on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 08:21:40 -0000 Hi, > checking for java... java > checking JDK version... 1.5.0 > checking for javac... javac > JRE_HOME appears to be /usr/local/bin/jre > checking for idlj... idlj > checking for jar... jar Because you have installed a new java version, is possible to have 2 versions. so, check if all files above are from same distribution, or run ./configure --with-java-home=/path to jdk Regards, Remus From tward1978@earthlink.net Mon Jun 12 15:30:53 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 912973B0100 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:30:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27449-05 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:30:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-gadwall.atl.sa.earthlink.net (pop-gadwall.atl.sa.earthlink.net [207.69.195.61]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB3063B0010 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:30:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dialup-4.224.186.21.dial1.cincinnati1.level3.net ([4.224.186.21]) by pop-gadwall.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1Fps6b-0002fm-00; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:29:45 -0400 Message-ID: <448DC0AE.3030302@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:29:50 -0400 From: Thomas Ward User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave References: <00af01c68d05$29efeba0$0200a8c0@satellite> In-Reply-To: <00af01c68d05$29efeba0$0200a8c0@satellite> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.943 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.456] X-Spam-Score: -0.943 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: gnopernicus, java, and access bridge on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 19:30:53 -0000 Hello, Dave. Gnome has three different areas of access which can be turned on or off depending on the level of accessibility you are aiming for. The first is controled by gconf. When you answer yes to accessibility when gnopernicus first loads the following key is set to true gconftool-2 --set "/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility" --type boolean "True") I haven't tested this lately, but if you type that key in to a standard bash shell prompt it would equal answering yes to the do you want access turned on when gnopernicus starts. The second flag which you can set turns the atk-bridge on for apps such as gaim which won't work without it. To turn the atk-bridge on add this line to the end of your home .bash_profile. export GTK_MODULES=gail:atk-bridge Assuming you have java access bridge installed, which I know you don't at this time, you can create a .orbitrc file in your home directory with gedit, nano, or another favorite text editor and add the following line. ORBIIOPIPv4=1 I'm not sure if you still need this as it has been a while since I did an update on everything, but to work with open office you needed to set SAL_ACCESSIBILITY_ENABLED=1 to get full access to OpenOffice.org. Hope this helps. From lists@digitaldarragh.com Tue Jun 13 04:23:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03BC73B000C for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 04:23:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15398-07 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 04:23:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.webhost.ie (mail.webhost.ie [83.138.8.74]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B51923B000A for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 04:23:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by mail.webhost.ie (Merak 8.3.8) with SMTP id ROJ35911 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:22:11 +0100 Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:22:11 +0100 From: Darragh To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <58fe54a1f8137f5466e7e91769d78df1@digitaldarragh.com> X-Mailer: IceWarp Web Mail 5.6.1 X-Originating-IP: 82.1.217.193 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.62 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.880, BAYES_20=-0.74] X-Spam-Score: -1.62 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Orca or Gnopernicus on a distro like Slax? X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 08:23:12 -0000 Hello all, I know slax uses KDE as its default window manager but do any of you know of another distro that works from a usb drive with the latest version of Gnome that will allow me to install Orca or Gnopernicus? Thanks Darragh Ó Héiligh Web development, O/S and Application technical support. Website: http://www.digitaldarragh.com From enrico@enricozini.org Tue Jun 13 17:50:15 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 104BB3B03CF for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:50:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07729-05 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:50:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agnus.ngi.it (agnus.ngi.it [88.149.128.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 917753B00C4 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:50:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eddie.casa (81-174-12-206.f5.ngi.it [81.174.12.206]) by agnus.ngi.it (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5DLllUw007997; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:47:48 +0200 Received: from eddie.casa (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eddie.casa (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A91230011E; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:47:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from marvin.casa (marvin.casa [192.168.1.2]) by eddie.casa (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F53430011D; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:47:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from enrico by marvin.casa with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1FqGjk-0002Ze-00; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:47:48 +0200 Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:47:47 +0200 From: Enrico Zini To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060613214747.GA4897@marvin.casa> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com References: <20060610092255.GA9803@marvin.casa> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060610092255.GA9803@marvin.casa> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060403 Sender: Enrico Zini X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.446 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.446 X-Spam-Level: Cc: ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Re: Fixing brittle speech support on Dapper X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 21:50:15 -0000 --ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline On Sat, Jun 10, 2006 at 11:22:55AM +0200, Enrico Zini wrote: > - speech doesn't work anymore. test-speech exits with: > Exception Unknown CORBA exception id: 'IDL:omg.org/CORBA/COMM_FAILURE:1.0' getting voice list. I've been waiting but sadly noone answered so far. I tried reinstalling from scratch in another computer, and I can trivially reproduce the speech server lockup there as well: 1) Fresh Ubuntu Dapper, apt-get install festlex-ifd festvox-italp16k festvox-itapc16k (from universe) 2) go to gnopernicus Preferences/Speech/Voices/Modify absolute values 3) choose "Festival GNOME Speech Driver" as a driver, "V2 lp_diphone" as the voice. Apply setting for all voices. 4) close the window. The voice stops. test-speech hangs after selecting the festival server. Please help me to find some clues on fixing this: it took us years to get GPL Festival voices for Italian, and now we could easily turn them into an accessible localised desktop, if it weren't for this. Ciao, Enrico -- GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini --ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEjzKD9LSwzHl+v6sRAuVyAJwI3dqpDwnrS8qq/ABGqUJdsmgJ5gCff+/n q3ZtW+3tVh14q1n0aG0Yv4U= =6lsv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q-- From ermengol@gmail.com Tue Jun 13 19:28:37 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 962923B021A for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 19:28:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09625-09 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 19:28:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.187]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D88D83B01C5 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 19:28:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id y38so1070382nfb for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 16:27:04 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=XgBruegOpLZfMFjVd1bPz7yhVNs2CnoRcO+dGHnDzPiAvdXBFd2k/1e+WEfiVvy0xfFcU9Hv2NP59uG70HF+eibs6v8uIl7c00uqcwS8i1AdUwQxnYqqmuVQR2e9xmGoF7pTOYlpYkfeD0r45ZHY9rsNBDc0CMZCXDZEvXBn9Hg= Received: by 10.49.68.20 with SMTP id v20mr7621nfk; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 16:27:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.48.208.11 with HTTP; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 16:27:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 01:27:04 +0200 From: "Ermengol Bota" To: "Peter Korn" In-Reply-To: <448911DC.4090607@sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <448911DC.4090607@sun.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: gnopernicus-magnifier. Full screen magnifier with dummy driver X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:28:37 -0000 2006/6/9, Peter Korn : > This is a problem with our current magnification architecture. We are > looking forward to magnifiers that are based on several X extensions - > most especially the COMPOSITE extension - which will allow us to avoid > this bit of hackery. Unfortunately we aren't quite ready with those yet. Thanks for all the answers. I know (i just read its web) that Composite does (will do?) more things, not only full screen magnifier, but at least on suse based distro's there is a modifier for xorg that enables to add "virtual resolution". So, you can define the screen resolution (1024x768) and then the virtual resolution 1600x1200 (the resolution for the desktop). This way it works like full screen magnifier. I've done it with SaX2 application (YaST2), but it just adds a new entry " Virtual 1600 1200" on each subsection "Display" of section "Screen" The differences i've seen so far are mainly all the functionalities that gnome-mag can do: change cursor, change the way screen move.... But may be it's an easier way to magnify the screen :-) Thanks for all -- * Ermengol * /*********************************************** * Els ordinadors no resolen problemes, * * simplement executen solucions. * ************************************************/ From themuso@themuso.com Wed Jun 14 09:44:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 189183B00FA; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 09:44:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23247-06; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 09:44:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vscan03.westnet.com.au (vscan03.westnet.com.au [203.10.1.142]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE6883B0133; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 09:44:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70444B60BFC; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 21:43:27 +0800 (WST) Received: from vscan03.westnet.com.au ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (vscan03.westnet.com.au [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04093-05; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 21:43:27 +0800 (WST) Received: from themuso.com (dsl-202-173-132-131.nsw.westnet.com.au [202.173.132.131]) by vscan03.westnet.com.au (Postfix) with SMTP id E0F6AB60BCC; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 21:43:26 +0800 (WST) Received: (nullmailer pid 26322 invoked by uid 1000); Wed, 14 Jun 2006 13:43:40 -0000 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 23:43:40 +1000 To: Gnome Accessibility List , Orca screen reader developers , Ubuntu Accessibility Mailing List Subject: Orca 0.2.5, and LSR 0.2.1 packages available. Message-ID: <20060614134340.GA26307@themuso.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 From: Luke Yelavich X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.415 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.049, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.415 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 13:44:36 -0000 --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all I am happy to announce that packages for both LSR 0.2.1, and orca 0.2.5=20 are available for Ubuntu dapper. To use them, put the following line in=20 your /etc/apt/sources.list file deb http://www.themuso.com/ubuntu/accessibility dapper universe Then run sudo apt-get update, and sudo apt-get install gnome-orca or lsr=20 depending on which package you want. Packages exist for both i386 and powerpc. If people want amd64 packages,=20 if you could possibly give me access to an amd64 box, I would be happy=20 to get them built and make them available. You can also access the source packages, should you want to know how=20 they are built. Add the following line to /etc/apt/sources.list deb-src http://www.themuso.com/ubuntu/accessibility dapper universe Enjoy! --=20 Luke Yelavich GPG key: 0xD06320CE=20 (http://www.themuso.com/themuso-gpg-key.txt) Email & MSN: themuso@themuso.com ICQ: 18444344 Jabber: themuso@jabber.org.au --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEkBKMjVefwtBjIM4RAl8WAJ98WHZSVlRtkZDRTRHmoFHg+xOmoACdFdmN 3VXNeYNIFaN6NUgtvG0epkQ= =bj1o -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o-- From janina@opera.rednote.net Wed Jun 14 12:17:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08CF33B0156; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:17:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28336-10; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:17:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (opera.rednote.net [70.84.142.212]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2375F3B03DA; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:17:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opera.rednote.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5EGH5iU007764; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 16:17:05 GMT Received: (from janina@localhost) by opera.rednote.net (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k5EGH5N6007763; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:17:05 -0400 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:17:05 -0400 From: Janina Sajka To: Willie Walker Subject: Re: Announcing Orca 0.2.5 rpms Message-ID: <20060614161705.GW2259@rednote.net> References: <1150069937.5071.4.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1150069937.5071.4.camel@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Operating-System: Linux opera.rednote.net 2.6.16-1.2122_FC5spksmp Organization: Capital Accessibility LLC (http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com) X-PGP-Key: http://www.CapitalAccessibility.com/JaninaSajka_gpg_key.html X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.569 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.030, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.569 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-announce-list@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, orca-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 16:17:56 -0000 rpm packages of Orca-0.2.5 for Fedora Core 5 are now available from: ftp://SpeakupModified.Org/fedora/rednote/ The binary is under RPMS, and the source under SRPMS as usual with Fedora. Installation There is yet some unresolved dependency issue with these rpms, so they probably will need to be installed using the --nodeps option as follows: rpm -Uv --nodeps orca-0.2.5-1.i386.rpm However, I can attest the resulting installation works for me on two different systems. I have first run: orca -t from the console, as the same user I am in the gui desktop. Once on the desktop, I have issued Alt-F2 and typed: orca -t again to get things started. Seems wrong, but is working for me on two systems. Special Note: You may need to upgrade your Gnome Desktop to Fedora Development. If you find things not working with the current release and updated Gnome environment, try: yum --disablerepo='*' --enablerepo=development groupupdate 'GNOME Desktop Environment' Note the above command is issued on one line, though it's probably been broken into at least two lines in this email message. -- Janina Sajka Phone: +1.240.715.1272 Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC http://CapitalAccessibility.Com Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada--Go to http://ScreenlessPhone.Com to learn more. Chair, Accessibility Workgroup Free Standards Group (FSG) janina@freestandards.org http://a11y.org From aaronleventhal@moonset.net Wed Jun 14 11:07:53 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBFD43B0156 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:07:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01652-09 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:07:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.lnh.mail.rcn.net (smtp01.lnh.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 191C33B0120 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:07:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 207-180-148-92.c3-0.arl-ubr2.sbo-arl.ma.cable.rcn.com (HELO [192.168.0.6]) ([207.180.148.92]) by smtp01.lnh.mail.rcn.net with ESMTP; 14 Jun 2006 11:08:29 -0400 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.06,132,1149480000"; d="scan'208"; a="222292815:sNHT26602784" Message-ID: <4490260C.6030606@moonset.net> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 11:06:52 -0400 From: Aaron Leventhal User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: mozilla.dev.accessibility Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Major rewrite will break trunk temporarily Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 03:15:26 -0400 X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 15:07:54 -0000 Work is progressing on https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=340829 This is a major rewrite which will remove nsAccessibleText, nsAcessibleEditableText and nsAccessibleHyperText classes, and move that code into a new cross platform class called nsHyperTextAccessible. Please be informed that when this goes in, it will take about a month for the trunk to stabilize. This does not affect the MOZILLA_1_8 branch which is being used to develop Firefox 2. This rewrite will ultimately find its way into Firefox 3 due out in 2007. When the smoke clears, we will have something very close to this: http://www.mozilla.org/access/unix/new-atk - Aaron From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Wed Jun 21 08:16:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 609D73B0F9B for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:16:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03164-08 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:16:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.186]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80AAF3B0D58 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:16:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id h2so80984nfe for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.34.19 with SMTP id m19mr514346nfj; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.30.13 with HTTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:16:15 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" Sender: skating.tortoise@gmail.com To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, ubuntu-accessibility Subject: Slow keys dialog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Google-Sender-Auth: 7fa2bf341aa83a4f X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.361 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.239, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.361 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:16:18 -0000 I've implemented sticky keys in my onscreen keyboard. When shift is stuck down it causes the slow keys dialogue to appear. Is there a way to suppress this dialog whilst my app is running? thanks -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From bmustillrose@gmail.com Wed Jun 21 08:48:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C35B3B0FF1 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:48:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05586-09 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:48:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.189]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07BC83B0F9B for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:48:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id h2so84606nfe for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:48:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.81.12 with SMTP id i12mr543988nfl; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:48:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.48.42.2 with HTTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:48:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4285e65e0606210548m58845a3el9847e55d8d3f64b5@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:48:41 +0100 From: "ben mustill-rose" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Gnopernicus Not talking on ubuntu 6.06 desktop MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:48:52 -0000 Hi. I installed ubuntu 6.06 desktop on a laptop some time ago and with that i downloaded speech since i'm blind. The thing is, half the time when i log in, it doesn't talk. To fix this, i will have to restart the computer again and again. There doesn't seem to be any patton regarding how many times i have to restart, which is kinda annoying. When it does start talking, its to slow, is there a hotkey to change the speech? And lastly, is there anything that i should kno if i am moving from hal to gnopernicus? Any help would be great, i'm new to linux so i dunno if i gave all the right info, but if not, just ask. KR, BEN. From javier@tiflolinux.org Wed Jun 21 14:16:58 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD2ED3B009F for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:16:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27974-05 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:16:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tiflolinux.org (unknown [82.158.40.139]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 191AA3B0095 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:16:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (uid 503) by tiflolinux.org with local; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 20:29:33 +0200 id 0009B56D.4499900D.00000432 Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 20:29:33 +0200 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Fco=2E_Javier_Dorado_Mart=EDnez?=" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Gnopernicus Not talking on ubuntu 6.06 desktop] Message-ID: <20060621182933.GB30626@tiflolinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Operating-System: Linux tiflolinux.org 2.4.20-8 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.603 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.051, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_NJABL_DUL=1.946] X-Spam-Score: -0.603 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 18:16:58 -0000 ----- Forwarded message from "Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez" ----- Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 20:27:51 +0200 From: "Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez" To: ben mustill-rose Subject: Re: Gnopernicus Not talking on ubuntu 6.06 desktop User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i Hi all Ben, the problem with Gnopernicus not speaking at startup is a question of the sound system, not availability on sound system when Gnopernicus start, so speech is disabled. You can quit gnopernicus by presing alt + q and then restaring it again by pressing alt + f2 and then typing gnopernicus plus enter key. I don't know Hal, so I can give you ore detail about differents. You can change speech settings by pressing 0 + 8 in the numeric keypad, so you can hear "layer 8" and then use 4 and 6 numeric keypad to decrease/increase speech rate, 7 and 9 for volume and 1 or 3 for pitch. All the functionality of Gnopernicus screen reader is based on the numeric keypad, and based in layers. So you have 10 layers with differents functions. Press 00 for layer 0, 01 for layer 1 and so. Hope this help Regards, Javier. On Wed, Jun 21, 2006 at 01:48:41PM +0100, ben mustill-rose wrote: > Hi. > > I installed ubuntu 6.06 desktop on a laptop some time ago and with > that i downloaded speech since i'm blind. > The thing is, half the time when i log in, it doesn't talk. To fix > this, i will have to restart the computer again and again. > There doesn't seem to be any patton regarding how many times i have to > restart, which is kinda annoying. > When it does start talking, its to slow, is there a hotkey to change the speech? > And lastly, is there anything that i should kno if i am moving from > hal to gnopernicus? > Any help would be great, i'm new to linux so i dunno if i gave all the > right info, but if not, just ask. > KR, BEN. > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list -- Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez mailto:javier@tiflolinux.org ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez mailto:javier@tiflolinux.org From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Fri Jun 23 10:54:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22CE23B087B for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 10:54:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18849-01 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 10:54:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.187]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B02B03B08E6 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 10:54:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id h2so91379nfe for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 07:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.4.17 with SMTP id g17mr2514299nfi; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 07:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.30.13 with HTTP; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 07:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 15:54:14 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" Sender: skating.tortoise@gmail.com To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, ubuntu-accessibility Subject: Re: Slow keys dialog In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: X-Google-Sender-Auth: f682d046db45120e X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.446 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.154, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.446 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 14:54:18 -0000 I've implemented sticky keys in my onscreen keyboard. When shift is stuck down it causes the slow keys dialogue to appear. Is there a way to suppress this dialog whilst my app is running? thanks -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Fri Jun 23 11:07:43 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4C2D3B0321 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 11:07:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19442-07 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 11:07:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.185]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B36483B08E6 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 11:07:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id h2so93351nfe for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 08:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.4.17 with SMTP id g17mr2523841nfi; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 08:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.30.13 with HTTP; Fri, 23 Jun 2006 08:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 16:07:39 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, ubuntu-accessibility Subject: Re: Slow keys dialog In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 15:07:43 -0000 I've implemented sticky keys in my onscreen keyboard. When shift is stuck down it causes the slow keys dialogue to appear. Is there a way to suppress this dialog whilst my app is running? thanks -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From enrico@enricozini.org Sat Jun 24 07:13:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F0053B02C1; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 07:13:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09160-07; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 07:13:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from maya.ngi.it (maya.ngi.it [88.149.128.3]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45FC13B006E; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 07:13:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (81-174-12-206.f5.ngi.it [81.174.12.206]) by maya.ngi.it (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5OBDf7s005708; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 13:13:41 +0200 Received: from enrico by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1Fu64i-0006Mo-Ds; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 12:13:16 +0100 Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 12:13:16 +0100 From: Enrico Zini To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org Subject: Fixing gnome-speech Message-ID: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ibTvN161/egqYuK8" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060403 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.014, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 11:13:47 -0000 --ibTvN161/egqYuK8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, I'm trying to look more into the problems I'm having with the speech support on Dapper (see my mail with subject "Fixing brittle speech support on Dapper" from June, 10th, which strangely isn't showing up in the archives at http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-accessibility-list/200= 6-June/thread.html). I started reading through gnome-speech source code. I noticed that it runs festival as a server and talks to it. This makes us have a screen reader that talks CORBA to a server that talks TCP/IP to another server who then does the synthesis. That's too many passages in which something can go wrong. Instinctively, I'm considering rewriting the festival driver to using the C API rather than the festival server. The C API of Festival is just as simple as this: http://rafb.net/paste/results/I7trk068.html I'll look into it a bit more, writing some test code to talk to the CORBA festival driver as well as test code for the festival C/C++ API, so that I can gain familiarity with both things. Any reasons why this hasn't been done yet? In the meantime, however, before I hurt my brain too much with this, what's the overall situation? Is it worth the effort of fixing gnome-speech, or is the effort better spend on making something else work? I'm already quite frustrated of not getting any sort of answer on the list for this problem that is getting me totally stuck (and thank Luke Yelavich for mora support on IRC), and I don't know how I would cope if I spent time and effort on this just to hear as soon as I've finished that everyone's moving to speech-dispatcher or some other kind of a totally different technology. If it's not worth spending efforts on gnome-speech, please let me know what I can use to replace it, since it doesn't work for me. Ciao, Enrico --=20 GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini --ibTvN161/egqYuK8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEnR5M9LSwzHl+v6sRAvfXAJ96YsbY8wqms77UDb9GCEEkTBctXgCdHWgz kdeLwfWldHDFD8gNgZRK8LU= =0xvb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ibTvN161/egqYuK8-- From javier@tiflolinux.org Sat Jun 24 16:21:09 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E13E43B00A5 for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 16:21:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01623-02 for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 16:21:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tiflolinux.org (unknown [82.158.40.139]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FC433B006E for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 16:21:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (uid 503) by tiflolinux.org with local; Sat, 24 Jun 2006 22:32:16 +0200 id 0004BEAB.449DA150.0000373E Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 22:32:16 +0200 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Fco=2E_Javier_Dorado_Mart=EDnez?=" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Gnopernicus Not talking on ubuntu 6.06 desktop]] Message-ID: <20060624203216.GB14113@tiflolinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Operating-System: Linux tiflolinux.org 2.4.20-8 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.608 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.045, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_NJABL_DUL=1.946] X-Spam-Score: -0.608 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 20:21:09 -0000 ----- Forwarded message from "Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez" ----- Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 22:30:11 +0200 From: "Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez" To: ben mustill-rose Subject: Re: Gnopernicus Not talking on ubuntu 6.06 desktop] User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i Hi all To avoid gnome-panel crashes first open a terminal by running gnome-terminal at the run dialog (alt + f2). Then type gnopernicus& Then no problems with the panel. Regards, Javier. On Sat, Jun 24, 2006 at 08:39:31PM +0100, ben mustill-rose wrote: > Hi all and sorry for not replying sooner. > > I tried the thing where you type gnopernicus into the run type box, > and that does make it talk, but only to say that there is a error with > gnome panel. > I clicked inform developers, but i dunno if it did it, because it > stopped talking. > It also stops talking when i click restart program or close. > I am doing a re install of ubuntu atm, so i'll see if this fixes it. > Thanks for the explanation about the way that the layers work and your > suggestion about the problem; i don't think it would have anything to > do with the sound system as it makes the startup& login sounds > everytime regardless of whether it talks or not. > Thanks, > > BEN. > > On 21/06/06, Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez wrote: > >----- Forwarded message from "Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez" > > ----- > > > >Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 20:27:51 +0200 > >From: "Fco. Javier Dorado Martínez" > >To: ben mustill-rose > >Subject: Re: Gnopernicus Not talking on ubuntu 6.06 desktop > >User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i > > > >Hi all > > > >Ben, the problem with Gnopernicus not speaking at startup is a question of > >the sound system, not availability on sound system when Gnopernicus start, > >so speech is disabled. > >You can quit gnopernicus by presing alt + q and then restaring it again by > >pressing alt + f2 and then typing gnopernicus plus enter key. > > > >I don't know Hal, so I can give you ore detail about differents. You can > >change speech settings by pressing 0 + 8 in the numeric keypad, so you can > >hear "layer 8" and then use 4 and 6 numeric keypad to decrease/increase > >speech rate, 7 and 9 for volume and 1 or 3 for pitch. > >All the functionality of Gnopernicus screen reader is based on the numeric > >keypad, and based in layers. So you have 10 layers with differents > >functions. Press 00 for layer 0, 01 for layer 1 and so. > > > >Hope this help > > > >Regards, > > > >Javier. > >On Wed, Jun 21, 2006 at 01:48:41PM +0100, ben mustill-rose wrote: > >> Hi. > >> > >> I installed ubuntu 6.06 desktop on a laptop some time ago and with > >> that i downloaded speech since i'm blind. > >> The thing is, half the time when i log in, it doesn't talk. To fix > >> this, i will have to restart the computer again and again. > >> There doesn't seem to be any patton regarding how many times i have to > >> restart, which is kinda annoying. > >> When it does start talking, its to slow, is there a hotkey to change the > >speech? > >> And lastly, is there anything that i should kno if i am moving from > >> hal to gnopernicus? > >> Any help would be great, i'm new to linux so i dunno if i gave all the > >> right info, but if not, just ask. > >> KR, BEN. > >> _______________________________________________ > >> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > >> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > >-- > >Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez > >mailto:javier@tiflolinux.org > > > >----- End forwarded message ----- > > > >-- > >Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez > >mailto:javier@tiflolinux.org > >_______________________________________________ > >gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > >gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > >http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > -- Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez mailto:javier@tiflolinux.org ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Francisco Javier Dorado Martínez mailto:javier@tiflolinux.org From ashutoshsharma@gmail.com Mon Jun 26 03:19:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECE8A3B00FA for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 03:19:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29011-07 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 03:19:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.182]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 181A23B0174 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 03:19:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id i49so1476020pyi for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 00:19:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.88.18 with SMTP id q18mr5652864pyl; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 00:19:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.41.6 with HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 00:19:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <79693c1a0606260019j408974efg8d1b36465a6b56cb@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:49:27 +0530 From: "Ashu Sharma" To: kde-accessibility@kde.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Use of gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' on KDE ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2506_29911772.1151306367960" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.399 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.399 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 07:19:34 -0000 ------=_Part_2506_29911772.1151306367960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi, There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather than putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI (to avoid dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear as to what was finally decided. On a related note, is the gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE too, to set or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a system? Or, is it used only on GNOME? Thanks, Ashutosh ------=_Part_2506_29911772.1151306367960 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
Hi,
 
There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather than putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI (to avoid dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear as to what was finally decided.
 
On a related note, is the gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE too, to set or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a system? Or, is it used only on GNOME?
 
Thanks,
Ashutosh
------=_Part_2506_29911772.1151306367960-- From cerha@brailcom.org Mon Jun 26 05:14:08 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEB423B0124 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:14:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04293-07 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:14:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gate.brailcom.cz (158-84-244-84.strcechy.adsl-llu.static.bluetone.cz [84.244.84.158]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B77673B01A8 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:14:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 11545 invoked from network); 26 Jun 2006 10:52:49 +0200 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.15.2?) (192.168.15.2) by ns.brailcom.xx with SMTP; 26 Jun 2006 10:52:49 +0200 Message-ID: <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:14:01 +0200 From: Tomas Cerha Organization: Brailcom, o.p.s. User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> In-Reply-To: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.483 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.878, BAYES_20=-0.74, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -1.483 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 09:14:09 -0000 Enrico Zini wrote: > Hello, > In the meantime, however, before I hurt my brain too much with this, > what's the overall situation? Is it worth the effort of fixing > gnome-speech, or is the effort better spend on making something else > work? Hi Enrico, I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, this may be essential for some people and the Orca -> Gnome Speech -> Speech Dispatcher -> synthesizer aproach has inherent problems. This might solve your problem too. Please, see also the common "TTS API" draft at http://www.freebsoft.org/tts-api. This is a common effort of Free Desktop and FSG. Best regards, Tomas -- Brailcom, o.p.s. http://www.brailcom.org Free(b)soft project http://www.freebsoft.org Eurochance project http://eurochance.brailcom.org From themuso@themuso.com Mon Jun 26 05:17:21 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 622303B0199 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:17:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04696-01 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:17:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vscan02.westnet.com.au (vscan02.westnet.com.au [203.10.1.132]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BF373B009A for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:17:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB27411DE38 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:17:17 +0800 (WST) Received: from vscan02.westnet.com.au ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (vscan02.westnet.com.au [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08941-12 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:17:17 +0800 (WST) Received: from themuso.com (dsl-202-173-132-131.nsw.westnet.com.au [202.173.132.131]) by vscan02.westnet.com.au (Postfix) with SMTP id 903AA11DE2D for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:17:17 +0800 (WST) Received: (nullmailer pid 16386 invoked by uid 1000); Mon, 26 Jun 2006 09:17:22 -0000 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 19:17:22 +1000 From: Luke Yelavich To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech Message-ID: <20060626091722.GA16369@themuso.com> References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="0F1p//8PRICkK4MW" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.42 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.044, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.42 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 09:17:21 -0000 --0F1p//8PRICkK4MW Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jun 26, 2006 at 07:14:01PM EST, Tomas Cerha wrote: > Hi Enrico, >=20 > I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This > bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher > offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, Mind I ask when this is likely to be completed? We in the Ubuntu=20 accessibility team are intending to switch to orca as the primary screen=20 reader for Ubuntu, and would like to replace gnome-speech with=20 speech-dispatcher as the back-end of choice for speech output, due to a=20 few other things we have in the pipeline. If you would like testers, I would be happy to put my hand up and try. Thanks in advance. --=20 Luke Yelavich GPG key: 0xD06320CE=20 (http://www.themuso.com/themuso-gpg-key.txt) Email & MSN: themuso@themuso.com ICQ: 18444344 Jabber: themuso@jabber.org.au --0F1p//8PRICkK4MW Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEn6YijVefwtBjIM4RAohUAJ9bFCUPjukVXuVxUuLc520zyq0wlwCgwrt9 hmTb/aJktGYao3cCYYeBSVs= =oGv9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0F1p//8PRICkK4MW-- From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 06:10:08 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 733133B009A for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 06:10:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08484-07 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 06:10:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDDAD3B002A for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 06:10:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5QA9xFH003901 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 04:10:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1G00301PGS57@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:09:59 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-202.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.202]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1G00ISBPKN45@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:09:59 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:11:10 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [Kde-accessibility] Use of gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' on KDE ? In-reply-to: <79693c1a0606260019j408974efg8d1b36465a6b56cb@mail.gmail.com> To: Ashu Sharma Message-id: <1151316670.7079.6.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <79693c1a0606260019j408974efg8d1b36465a6b56cb@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.576 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.022, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.576 X-Spam-Level: Cc: kde-accessibility@kde.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:10:08 -0000 On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:19, Ashu Sharma wrote: > Hi, > > There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather than > putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI (to avoid > dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear as to what > was finally decided. If KDE writes to ATK, it makes the job easier in a number of ways (at the cost of introducing a glib dependency, but hiding other gnome-ish dependencies). However, the AT-SPI layer requires CORBA in order to function, so in order to actually expose useful information to our assistive technologies, an application must LD_PRELOAD the "atk-bridge" module which bridges from ATK to AT-SPI's CORBA IPC. I think this is the most effective thing to do for the time being (preload atk-bridge), since it doesn't introduce a CORBA dependency on the KDE apps (only a soft runtime dependency). The AT-SPI assistive technology clients cannot work without the AT-SPI/ORBit2/etc. libraries being present on the system anyhow, so from a practical perspective this is the minimum current dependency situation. There's another environment variable you can look for if you don't want to use gconf; GTK_MODULES. Of course that's still quite a gnome/gtk+-ish variable and arguably not appropriate to KDE anyhow, so it might be cleaner just to spawn a gconf-client executable and parse the output, in order to detect whether assistive technology support is desired or not. Also, soon there will be a slightly different mechanism for detecting the presence of the AT-SPI registry - it will place an IOR as an Xatom on the root DISPLAY window. This means you can find it without using bonobo-activation. regards Bill > > On a related note, is the gconf > key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE too, to set > or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a system? Or, is > it used only on GNOME? > > Thanks, > Ashutosh > > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > kde-accessibility mailing list > kde-accessibility@kde.org > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility From ashutoshsharma@gmail.com Mon Jun 26 08:30:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDB6F3B0175 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:30:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17354-05 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:30:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.178]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 282313B0279 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:30:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id i49so1548987pyi for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:30:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.51.13 with SMTP id d13mr5906514pyk; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:30:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.41.6 with HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 05:30:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <79693c1a0606260530x71d11d9dic7cfd6bb6974a1ad@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:00:08 +0530 From: "Ashu Sharma" To: "Bill Haneman" Subject: Re: [Kde-accessibility] Use of gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' on KDE ? In-Reply-To: <1151316670.7079.6.camel@linux.site> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_5856_6313645.1151325008992" References: <79693c1a0606260019j408974efg8d1b36465a6b56cb@mail.gmail.com> <1151316670.7079.6.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.487 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.088, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.487 X-Spam-Level: Cc: kde-accessibility@kde.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:30:13 -0000 ------=_Part_5856_6313645.1151325008992 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 6/26/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:19, Ashu Sharma wrote: > > Hi, > > > > There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather than > > putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI (to avoid > > dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear as to what > > was finally decided. > > If KDE writes to ATK, it makes the job easier in a number of ways (at > the cost of introducing a glib dependency, but hiding other gnome-ish > dependencies). However, the AT-SPI layer requires CORBA in order to > function, so in order to actually expose useful information to our > assistive technologies, an application must LD_PRELOAD the "atk-bridge" > module which bridges from ATK to AT-SPI's CORBA IPC. > > I think this is the most effective thing to do for the time being > (preload atk-bridge), since it doesn't introduce a CORBA dependency on > the KDE apps (only a soft runtime dependency). The AT-SPI assistive > technology clients cannot work without the AT-SPI/ORBit2/etc. libraries > being present on the system anyhow, so from a practical perspective this > is the minimum current dependency situation. > > There's another environment variable you can look for if you don't want > to use gconf; GTK_MODULES. Of course that's still quite a > gnome/gtk+-ish variable and arguably not appropriate to KDE anyhow, so > it might be cleaner just to spawn a gconf-client executable and parse > the output, in order to detect whether assistive technology support is > desired or not. Also, soon there will be a slightly different mechanism > for detecting the presence of the AT-SPI registry - it will place an IOR > as an Xatom on the root DISPLAY window. This means you can find it > without using bonobo-activation. > > regards > > Bill > > > > > On a related note, is the gconf > > key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE too, to set > > or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a system? Or, is > > it used only on GNOME? > > > > Thanks, > > Ashutosh > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > kde-accessibility mailing list > > kde-accessibility@kde.org > > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility > > Bill, Thanks for these details. I am actually wondering about the current state of KDE accessibility - whether AT clients under KDE currently depend on gnome/gconf libraries (especially if they use the gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' to enable AT support). Thanks, Ashutosh ------=_Part_5856_6313645.1151325008992 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 6/26/06, Bill Haneman <Bill.Haneman@sun.com> wrote:
On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:19, Ashu Sharma wrote:
> Hi,
>
> There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather than
> putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI (to avoid
> dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear as to what
> was finally decided.

If KDE writes to ATK, it makes the job easier in a number of ways (at
the cost of introducing a glib dependency, but hiding other gnome-ish
dependencies).  However, the AT-SPI layer requires CORBA in order to
function, so in order to actually expose useful information to our
assistive technologies, an application must LD_PRELOAD the "atk-bridge"
module which bridges from ATK to AT-SPI's CORBA IPC.

I think this is the most effective thing to do for the time being
(preload atk-bridge), since it doesn't introduce a CORBA dependency on
the KDE apps (only a soft runtime dependency).  The AT-SPI assistive
technology clients cannot work without the AT-SPI/ORBit2/etc. libraries
being present on the system anyhow, so from a practical perspective this
is the minimum current dependency situation.

There's another environment variable you can look for if you don't want
to use gconf; GTK_MODULES.  Of course that's still quite a
gnome/gtk+-ish variable and arguably not appropriate to KDE anyhow, so
it might be cleaner just to spawn a gconf-client executable and parse
the output, in order to detect whether assistive technology support is
desired or not.  Also, soon there will be a slightly different mechanism
for detecting the presence of the AT-SPI registry - it will place an IOR
as an Xatom on the root DISPLAY window.  This means you can find it
without using bonobo-activation.

regards

Bill

>
> On a related note, is the gconf
> key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE too, to set
> or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a system? Or, is
> it used only on GNOME?
>
> Thanks,
> Ashutosh
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> kde-accessibility mailing list
> kde-accessibility@kde.org
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility



Bill,
Thanks for these details.
I am actually wondering about the current state of KDE accessibility - whether AT clients under KDE currently depend on gnome/gconf libraries (especially if they use the gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' to enable AT support) .
Thanks,
Ashutosh
------=_Part_5856_6313645.1151325008992-- From enrico@enricozini.org Mon Jun 26 08:44:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCDA03B0387; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:44:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18426-01; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:44:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from maya.ngi.it (maya.ngi.it [88.149.128.3]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87FC23B02F7; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:44:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (81-174-12-206.f5.ngi.it [81.174.12.206]) by maya.ngi.it (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5QCihKc011937; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:44:43 +0200 Received: from enrico by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FuqNo-0003eT-1a; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:40:04 +0100 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:40:03 +0100 From: Enrico Zini To: Tomas Cerha Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech Message-ID: <20060626124003.GA13572@viaza> Mail-Followup-To: Tomas Cerha , gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060403 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.456 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.008, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.456 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:44:48 -0000 --NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jun 26, 2006 at 11:14:01AM +0200, Tomas Cerha wrote: > I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This > bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher > offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, this > may be essential for some people and the Orca -> Gnome Speech -> Speech > Dispatcher -> synthesizer aproach has inherent problems. This might > solve your problem too. >=20 > Please, see also the common "TTS API" draft at > http://www.freebsoft.org/tts-api. This is a common effort of Free > Desktop and FSG. Cool. Is there a way I can use all of this right now on Dapper? Ciao, Enrico --=20 GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini --NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEn9Wj9LSwzHl+v6sRAofUAJ9rGqFPNo5F+9EKH1UOKSt32EG0nwCfZZUp 64toiGSrN/swh06OHchQyCY= =hVic -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh-- From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 10:48:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA3BA3B046B for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:48:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25602-07 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:48:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 398A83B0379 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:48:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5QEmdiJ024863 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:48:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1H008012BMA0@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:48:39 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-202.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.202]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1H008072H345@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:48:39 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:49:51 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com Message-id: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.577 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.577 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:48:49 -0000 Hi Chris: The answer is, "don't implement sticky keys in your keyboard". You should be using the system-wide StickyKeys settings and feature instead (as GOK does). Interfering with the normal operation of the system wide setting (i.e clashing with it as your app does), is itself an accessibility violation. (There are several gconf keys you can use to turn sticky keys on and off - see those under /desktop/gnome/accessibility/keyboard) Bill > I've implemented sticky keys in my onscreen keyboard. When shift is > stuck down it causes the slow keys dialogue to appear. Is there a way > to suppress this dialog whilst my app is running? > > thanks > > > -- > Chris Jones From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 11:21:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83D7D3B0135 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:21:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27817-09 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:21:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A48F3B02BF for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:21:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5QFLalF005098 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 09:21:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1H005013V76K@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:21:36 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-202.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.202]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1H008O33ZZ45@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:21:36 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:22:47 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [Kde-accessibility] Use of gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' on KDE ? In-reply-to: <79693c1a0606260530x71d11d9dic7cfd6bb6974a1ad@mail.gmail.com> To: Ashu Sharma Message-id: <1151335367.7079.40.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <79693c1a0606260019j408974efg8d1b36465a6b56cb@mail.gmail.com> <1151316670.7079.6.camel@linux.site> <79693c1a0606260530x71d11d9dic7cfd6bb6974a1ad@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.577 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.577 X-Spam-Level: Cc: kde-accessibility@kde.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:21:46 -0000 Hi Ashu: Currently the state of KDE accessibility is somewhat limited. Other than some important theming and keyboard-navigation support, which does not require a complex interface such as AT-SPI, there are only a few useful utilities like KMag, KMouth, and KMousetool. While these are nice utilities, they aren't enough to allow users who cannot use a keyboard at all, or who are blind or have very limited vision, to use KDE. We have three working screen readers (for blind users) for the free desktop now; gnopernicus, orca, and LSR. For users who cannot use a keyboard, we have GOK and Dasher. All of these technologies require the full power of the AT-SPI interfaces, and thus require the ORBit2 CORBA stack in order to work. The gconf key you mention is for determining whether support for such full-features assistive technologies should be enabled or not. When KDE/Qt applications provide full-featured accessibility services, as is planned for Qt4, then those services can be bridged to AT-SPI, making those applications available to screen readers and other sorts of "user interface adapting" assistive technologies. While it would be possible to write a "KDE" screen reader or KDE onscreen keyboard for severely disable users (for instance users who cannot even 'point and click' reliably), I don't think it would be the best use of our resources. Technologies like Orca are intended to work with AT-SPI-enabled KDE apps just as they work with applications like OpenOffice, Java apps, Firefox, and other applications today, not just "gnome". By writing Orca scripts for popular KDE applications, the KDE desktop, and by fixing the inevitable bugs in KDE's keyboard navigation and accessibility support, a modest amount of development effort can go further to benefit disabled users. best regards Bill On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 13:30, Ashu Sharma wrote: > On 6/26/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:19, Ashu Sharma wrote: > > Hi, > > > > There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather > than > > putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI > (to avoid > > dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear > as to what > > was finally decided. > > If KDE writes to ATK, it makes the job easier in a number of > ways (at > the cost of introducing a glib dependency, but hiding other > gnome-ish > dependencies). However, the AT-SPI layer requires CORBA in > order to > function, so in order to actually expose useful information to > our > assistive technologies, an application must LD_PRELOAD the > "atk-bridge" > module which bridges from ATK to AT-SPI's CORBA IPC. > > I think this is the most effective thing to do for the time > being > (preload atk-bridge), since it doesn't introduce a CORBA > dependency on > the KDE apps (only a soft runtime dependency). The AT-SPI > assistive > technology clients cannot work without the AT-SPI/ORBit2/etc. > libraries > being present on the system anyhow, so from a practical > perspective this > is the minimum current dependency situation. > > There's another environment variable you can look for if you > don't want > to use gconf; GTK_MODULES. Of course that's still quite a > gnome/gtk+-ish variable and arguably not appropriate to KDE > anyhow, so > it might be cleaner just to spawn a gconf-client executable > and parse > the output, in order to detect whether assistive technology > support is > desired or not. Also, soon there will be a slightly different > mechanism > for detecting the presence of the AT-SPI registry - it will > place an IOR > as an Xatom on the root DISPLAY window. This means you can > find it > without using bonobo-activation. > > regards > > Bill > > > > > On a related note, is the gconf > > key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE > too, to set > > or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a > system? Or, is > > it used only on GNOME? > > > > Thanks, > > Ashutosh > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > kde-accessibility mailing list > > kde-accessibility@kde.org > > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility > > > > Bill, > Thanks for these details. > I am actually wondering about the current state of KDE accessibility - > whether AT clients under KDE currently depend on gnome/gconf libraries > (especially if they use the gconf key > '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' to enable AT support) . > Thanks, > Ashutosh > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > kde-accessibility mailing list > kde-accessibility@kde.org > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility From ashutoshsharma@gmail.com Mon Jun 26 11:43:04 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 801FA3B03F3 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:43:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29596-02 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:43:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.179]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74DD33B03BC for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:43:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id d42so1560606pyd for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.60.16 with SMTP id n16mr4625437pyk; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.41.6 with HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <79693c1a0606260843s8c12ba3v75e72b38a712f3c1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:13:00 +0530 From: "Ashu Sharma" To: "Bill Haneman" Subject: Re: [Kde-accessibility] Use of gconf key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' on KDE ? In-Reply-To: <1151335367.7079.40.camel@linux.site> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_217_32816475.1151336580471" References: <79693c1a0606260019j408974efg8d1b36465a6b56cb@mail.gmail.com> <1151316670.7079.6.camel@linux.site> <79693c1a0606260530x71d11d9dic7cfd6bb6974a1ad@mail.gmail.com> <1151335367.7079.40.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.239 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.336, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, HTML_40_50=0.496, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.239 X-Spam-Level: Cc: kde-accessibility@kde.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:43:04 -0000 ------=_Part_217_32816475.1151336580471 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 6/26/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > Hi Ashu: > > Currently the state of KDE accessibility is somewhat limited. Other > than some important theming and keyboard-navigation support, which does > not require a complex interface such as AT-SPI, there are only a few > useful utilities like KMag, KMouth, and KMousetool. While these are > nice utilities, they aren't enough to allow users who cannot use a > keyboard at all, or who are blind or have very limited vision, to use > KDE. > > We have three working screen readers (for blind users) for the free > desktop now; gnopernicus, orca, and LSR. For users who cannot use a > keyboard, we have GOK and Dasher. All of these technologies require the > full power of the AT-SPI interfaces, and thus require the ORBit2 CORBA > stack in order to work. The gconf key you mention is for determining > whether support for such full-features assistive technologies should be > enabled or not. > > When KDE/Qt applications provide full-featured accessibility services, > as is planned for Qt4, then those services can be bridged to AT-SPI, > making those applications available to screen readers and other sorts of > "user interface adapting" assistive technologies. > > While it would be possible to write a "KDE" screen reader or KDE > onscreen keyboard for severely disable users (for instance users who > cannot even 'point and click' reliably), I don't think it would be the > best use of our resources. Technologies like Orca are intended to work > with AT-SPI-enabled KDE apps just as they work with applications like > OpenOffice, Java apps, Firefox, and other applications today, not just > "gnome". By writing Orca scripts for popular KDE applications, the KDE > desktop, and by fixing the inevitable bugs in KDE's keyboard navigation > and accessibility support, a modest amount of development effort can go > further to benefit disabled users. > > best regards > > Bill > > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 13:30, Ashu Sharma wrote: > > On 6/26/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:19, Ashu Sharma wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather > > than > > > putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI > > (to avoid > > > dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear > > as to what > > > was finally decided. > > > > If KDE writes to ATK, it makes the job easier in a number of > > ways (at > > the cost of introducing a glib dependency, but hiding other > > gnome-ish > > dependencies). However, the AT-SPI layer requires CORBA in > > order to > > function, so in order to actually expose useful information to > > our > > assistive technologies, an application must LD_PRELOAD the > > "atk-bridge" > > module which bridges from ATK to AT-SPI's CORBA IPC. > > > > I think this is the most effective thing to do for the time > > being > > (preload atk-bridge), since it doesn't introduce a CORBA > > dependency on > > the KDE apps (only a soft runtime dependency). The AT-SPI > > assistive > > technology clients cannot work without the AT-SPI/ORBit2/etc. > > libraries > > being present on the system anyhow, so from a practical > > perspective this > > is the minimum current dependency situation. > > > > There's another environment variable you can look for if you > > don't want > > to use gconf; GTK_MODULES. Of course that's still quite a > > gnome/gtk+-ish variable and arguably not appropriate to KDE > > anyhow, so > > it might be cleaner just to spawn a gconf-client executable > > and parse > > the output, in order to detect whether assistive technology > > support is > > desired or not. Also, soon there will be a slightly different > > mechanism > > for detecting the presence of the AT-SPI registry - it will > > place an IOR > > as an Xatom on the root DISPLAY window. This means you can > > find it > > without using bonobo-activation. > > > > regards > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > On a related note, is the gconf > > > key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE > > too, to set > > > or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a > > system? Or, is > > > it used only on GNOME? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Ashutosh > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > kde-accessibility mailing list > > > kde-accessibility@kde.org > > > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility > > > > > > > > Bill, > > Thanks for these details. > > I am actually wondering about the current state of KDE accessibility - > > whether AT clients under KDE currently depend on gnome/gconf libraries > > (especially if they use the gconf key > > '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' to enable AT support) . > > Thanks, > > Ashutosh > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > kde-accessibility mailing list > > kde-accessibility@kde.org > > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility > > Hi Bill, These details are really useful. Thanks! I suppose things will get much better on KDE after Qt4 or with more application specific Orca scripts. Thanks, Ashu ------=_Part_217_32816475.1151336580471 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
On 6/26/06, Bill Haneman <Bill.Haneman@sun.com> wrote:
Hi Ashu:

Currently the state of KDE accessibility is somewhat limited.  Other
than some important theming and keyboard-navigation support, which does
not require a complex interface such as AT-SPI, there are only a few
useful utilities like KMag, KMouth, and KMousetool.  While these are
nice utilities, they aren't enough to allow users who cannot use a
keyboard at all, or who are blind or have very limited vision, to use
KDE.

We have three working screen readers (for blind users) for the free
desktop now; gnopernicus, orca, and LSR.  For users who cannot use a
keyboard, we have GOK and Dasher.  All of these technologies require the
full power of the AT-SPI interfaces, and thus require the ORBit2 CORBA
stack in order to work.  The gconf key you mention is for determining
whether support for such full-features assistive technologies should be
enabled or not.

When KDE/Qt applications provide full-featured accessibility services,
as is planned for Qt4, then those services can be bridged to AT-SPI,
making those applications available to screen readers and other sorts of
"user interface adapting" assistive technologies.

While it would be possible to write a "KDE" screen reader or KDE
onscreen keyboard for severely disable users (for instance users who
cannot even 'point and click' reliably), I don't think it would be the
best use of our resources.  Technologies like Orca are intended to work
with AT-SPI-enabled KDE apps just as they work with applications like
OpenOffice, Java apps, Firefox, and other applications today, not just
"gnome".  By writing Orca scripts for popular KDE applications, the KDE
desktop, and by fixing the inevitable bugs in KDE's keyboard navigation
and accessibility support, a modest amount of development effort can go
further to benefit disabled users.

best regards

Bill

On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 13:30, Ashu Sharma wrote:
> On 6/26/06, Bill Haneman < Bill.Haneman@sun.com> wrote:
>         On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 08:19, Ashu Sharma wrote:
>         > Hi,
>         >
>         > There was discussion about making use of ATK on KDE, rather
>         than
>         > putting in another CORBA implementation to talk to AT-SPI
>         (to avoid
>         > dependency on GNOME-related libraries). I'm not quite clear
>         as to what
>         > was finally decided.
>
>         If KDE writes to ATK, it makes the job easier in a number of
>         ways (at
>         the cost of introducing a glib dependency, but hiding other
>         gnome-ish
>         dependencies).  However, the AT-SPI layer requires CORBA in
>         order to
>         function, so in order to actually expose useful information to
>         our
>         assistive technologies, an application must LD_PRELOAD the
>         "atk-bridge"
>         module which bridges from ATK to AT-SPI's CORBA IPC.
>
>         I think this is the most effective thing to do for the time
>         being
>         (preload atk-bridge), since it doesn't introduce a CORBA
>         dependency on
>         the KDE apps (only a soft runtime dependency).  The AT-SPI
>         assistive
>         technology clients cannot work without the AT-SPI/ORBit2/etc.
>         libraries
>         being present on the system anyhow, so from a practical
>         perspective this
>         is the minimum current dependency situation.
>
>         There's another environment variable you can look for if you
>         don't want
>         to use gconf; GTK_MODULES.  Of course that's still quite a
>         gnome/gtk+-ish variable and arguably not appropriate to KDE
>         anyhow, so
>         it might be cleaner just to spawn a gconf-client executable
>         and parse
>         the output, in order to detect whether assistive technology
>         support is
>         desired or not.  Also, soon there will be a slightly different
>         mechanism
>         for detecting the presence of the AT-SPI registry - it will
>         place an IOR
>         as an Xatom on the root DISPLAY window.  This means you can
>         find it
>         without using bonobo-activation.
>
>         regards
>
>         Bill
>
>         >
>         > On a related note, is the gconf
>         > key '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' used on KDE
>         too, to set
>         > or find if accessibility support is to be enabled on a
>         system? Or, is
>         > it used only on GNOME?
>         >
>         > Thanks,
>         > Ashutosh
>         >
>         >
>         ______________________________________________________________________
>         > _______________________________________________
>         > kde-accessibility mailing list
>         > kde-accessibility@kde.org
>         > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility
>
>
>
> Bill,
> Thanks for these details.
> I am actually wondering about the current state of KDE accessibility -
> whether AT clients under KDE currently depend on gnome/gconf libraries
> (especially if they use the gconf key
> '/desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility' to enable AT support) .
> Thanks,
> Ashutosh
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> kde-accessibility mailing list
> kde-accessibility@kde.org
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility


Hi Bill,
 
These details are really useful. Thanks!
I suppose things will get much better on KDE after Qt4 or with more application specific Orca scripts.
 
Thanks,
Ashu
------=_Part_217_32816475.1151336580471-- From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Mon Jun 26 16:33:58 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99BB63B031D for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:33:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14290-03 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:33:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.205]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BC1E3B008B for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:33:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 13so1437074nzp for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:33:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.138.19 with SMTP id l19mr1632308nzd; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:33:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.73.15 with HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:33:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:33:56 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" Sender: skating.tortoise@gmail.com To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-Reply-To: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 99b8f1f66b5e77f8 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.395 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.005, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.395 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:33:58 -0000 The sytem-wide StickyKeys is too inflexible for my needs. I have the following gripes: * A user might want the onscreen keyboard to be sticky but not the physical. * It allows me to implement the functionality in a way that is more suitable for an onscreen keyboard. One click sets sticky for one click of a non sticky character, a further click sets sticky until a third click. * The sticky keys dialogue is annoying. A far better way would be to enable it in the preferences, since you must to enable assistive technology support and be notified of it's act/deactivation by a notification bubble. * This is not purely a a11y project. It has other uses, tablet pc's etc. Therefore I wanted a soft dependency on assistive technologies. * GOK's implentation is very unreliable on my system, and not something I particularly want to emulate. I know I should fix these gripes instead of treading my own path. However, this is a Summer of Code project and so I need to produce the expected results before a deadline. In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". Thanks for your time. On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > Hi Chris: > > The answer is, "don't implement sticky keys in your keyboard". You > should be using the system-wide StickyKeys settings and feature instead > (as GOK does). > > Interfering with the normal operation of the system wide setting (i.e > clashing with it as your app does), is itself an accessibility > violation. > > (There are several gconf keys you can use to turn sticky keys on and off > - see those under /desktop/gnome/accessibility/keyboard) > > Bill > > > I've implemented sticky keys in my onscreen keyboard. When shift is > > stuck down it causes the slow keys dialogue to appear. Is there a way > > to suppress this dialog whilst my app is running? > > > > thanks > > > > > > -- > > Chris Jones > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Mon Jun 26 16:43:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3667E3B01E8 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:43:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14968-01 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:43:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.204]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABE423B00F9 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:43:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 13so22255nzn for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:43:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.221.39 with SMTP id t39mr3268556nzg; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:43:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.73.15 with HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:43:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:43:30 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.5 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:43:34 -0000 Thanks for your reply. The system-wide StickyKeys is too inflexible for my needs. I have the following gripes: * A user might want the onscreen keyboard to be sticky but not the physical. * It does not allow me to implement the functionality in a way that is suitable for an onscreen keyboard. My implementations uses one click to set sticky for one click of a non sticky character, a further click sets sticky until a third click or the stuck key. * The sticky keys dialogue is annoying. A far better way would be to enable it in the preferences, since you must to enable assistive technology support and be notified of it's act/deactivation by a notification bubble. * This is not purely a a11y project. It has other uses, tablet PCs etc. Therefore I wanted a soft dependency on assistive technologies. * GOK's implementation is very unreliable on my system, and not something I particularly want to emulate. I know I should fix these gripes instead of treading my own path. However, this is a Summer of Code project and so I need to produce the expected results before a deadline. In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > Hi Chris: > > The answer is, "don't implement sticky keys in your keyboard". You > should be using the system-wide StickyKeys settings and feature instead > (as GOK does). > > Interfering with the normal operation of the system wide setting (i.e > clashing with it as your app does), is itself an accessibility > violation. > > (There are several gconf keys you can use to turn sticky keys on and off > - see those under /desktop/gnome/accessibility/keyboard) > > Bill > > > I've implemented sticky keys in my onscreen keyboard. When shift is > > stuck down it causes the slow keys dialogue to appear. Is there a way > > to suppress this dialog whilst my app is running? > > > > thanks > > > > > > -- > > Chris Jones > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 16:53:02 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8B223B03E8 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:53:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15302-10 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:52:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Sun.COM [192.18.98.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38EB13B031D for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:52:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5QKqvel002689 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:52:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1H00201IWLS9@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:52:57 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-202.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.202]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1H00H7JJC8F4@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:52:57 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:54:08 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: To: Chris Jones Message-id: <1151355248.7079.75.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:53:03 -0000 On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 21:43, Chris Jones wrote: > Thanks for your reply. > > The system-wide StickyKeys is too inflexible for my needs. I have the > following gripes: > * A user might want the onscreen keyboard to be sticky but not the physical. I am not convinced that users will really want this, perhaps this is your opinion. It is still an accessibility violation to interfere with the way the built-in keyboard accessibility features work. > * It does not allow me to implement the functionality in a way that > is suitable for an onscreen keyboard. My implementations uses one > click to set sticky for one > click of a non sticky character, a further click sets sticky until a > third click or the stuck key. The system dialog settings work this way on most systems. > * The sticky keys dialogue is annoying. A far better way would be > to enable it in the preferences, since you must to enable assistive > technology support and be notified of it's act/deactivation by a > notification bubble. You can already turn this off, but it needs to be the default for new desktops/new users, in order to allow users who need it to turn it on via the keyboard shortcuts. > * This is not purely a a11y project. It has other uses, tablet PCs > etc. Therefore I wanted a soft dependency on assistive technologies. The StickyKeys feature is not an assistive technology, per se. However it is a standard platform feature. > * GOK's implementation is very unreliable on my system, and not > something I particularly want to emulate. Have you filed any bug reports? ALL onscreen keyboards will suffer from problems if they use the system core pointer for input, because of pointer grabs which virtually every GUI toolkit does. > I know I should fix these gripes instead of treading my own path. > However, this is a Summer of Code project and so I need to produce the > expected results before a deadline. > > In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". I suggest you use the system gconf keys for sticky keys. regards Bill > > On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > Hi Chris: > > > > The answer is, "don't implement sticky keys in your keyboard". You > > should be using the system-wide StickyKeys settings and feature instead > > (as GOK does). > > > > Interfering with the normal operation of the system wide setting (i.e > > clashing with it as your app does), is itself an accessibility > > violation. > > > > (There are several gconf keys you can use to turn sticky keys on and off > > - see those under /desktop/gnome/accessibility/keyboard) > > > > Bill > > > > > I've implemented sticky keys in my onscreen keyboard. When shift is > > > stuck down it causes the slow keys dialogue to appear. Is there a way > > > to suppress this dialog whilst my app is running? > > > > > > thanks > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Chris Jones > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > -- > Chris Jones > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From henrik@ubuntu.com Mon Jun 26 17:28:25 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 715EE3B00C1 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:28:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17303-03 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:28:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1082A3B00AD for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:28:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.0.10] (henrik.gotadsl.co.uk [82.133.122.11]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D30223788D; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:28:18 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:28:26 +0100 From: Henrik Nilsen Omma User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Jones Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.593 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.006, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.593 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:28:25 -0000 Chris Jones wrote: > ... > > In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". Chris, Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the state internally in SOK? IOW: 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift is clicked again you unset the flag. That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an 'accessibility violation'. Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? - Henrik From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 17:39:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CA353B01FF for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:39:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17635-04 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:39:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2953C3B0157 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:39:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5QLd8Uc010930 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:39:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1H00E01KY47T@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:39:13 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-202.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.202]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1H00HS8LH8F4@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:39:09 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:40:20 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> To: Henrik Nilsen Omma Message-id: <1151358020.7079.77.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:39:27 -0000 On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? Are you going to say something helpful? :-/ Bill > - Henrik > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From henrik@ubuntu.com Mon Jun 26 18:05:10 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24E3B3B038D for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:05:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18852-08 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:05:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E91383B028E for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:05:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.0.10] (henrik.gotadsl.co.uk [82.133.122.11]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4D8A237AE0; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:05:02 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <44A05A17.10107@ubuntu.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:05:11 +0100 From: Henrik Nilsen Omma User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151358020.7079.77.camel@linux.site> In-Reply-To: <1151358020.7079.77.camel@linux.site> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.594 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.005, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.594 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:05:10 -0000 Bill Haneman wrote: > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > > >> Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? >> > > Are you going to say something helpful? > > OK, I should have resisted that last line, sorry. But there is a valid point under the sarcasm, which is: we are trying to make new and better tools here and it is not very helpful to then always refer back to the existing tools which really don't work. - Henrik From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 18:27:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3B5A3B01FF for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:27:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19726-10 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:27:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2271D3B0088 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:27:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5QMRhsc010962 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:27:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1H00701N9XYA@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:27:42 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-202.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.202]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1H00HENNQ6F4@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:27:42 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:28:54 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: <44A05A17.10107@ubuntu.com> To: Henrik Nilsen Omma Message-id: <1151360933.7079.83.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151358020.7079.77.camel@linux.site> <44A05A17.10107@ubuntu.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:27:46 -0000 On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 23:05, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > Bill Haneman wrote: > > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > > > > > >> Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? > >> > > > > Are you going to say something helpful? > > > > > > OK, I should have resisted that last line, sorry. > > But there is a valid point under the sarcasm, which is: > we are trying to > make new and better tools here and it is not very helpful > to then always > refer back to the existing tools which really don't work. You keep saying the existing tools "don't work", but you don't seem to be helping to make them work. 90% of all GOK problems are configuration issues. This is documented in the Gnome Accessibility Guide - mostly it comes down to broken-ness in the way XInput works in most systems out-of-the box. I think in the end we will have to ditch XInput where GOK is concerned, but although several research projects have been carried out to try and identify alternatives, we haven't found one that really fits the bill. Henrik, I thought it was part of your job to do QA and testing of Ubuntu accessibility... so I would hope you would be interested in helping work towards solutions. Building a new onscreen keyboard that doesn't meet the needs of disabled users isn't the right solution in my opinion. Did you even investigate GOK's configurability? I really believe that there are multiple ways in which GOK could have been used to solve the problem you are apparently attempting to solve, but I know for a fact that you didn't have any in-depth discussions with the maintainers. Bill > - Henrik > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 18:38:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC0823B0201 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:38:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20536-04 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:38:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (nwkea-mail-1.sun.com [192.18.42.13]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D43B3B028E for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:38:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5QMch8F017296 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:38:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1H00B01NVL0X@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:38:43 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-202.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.202]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1H00H3VO8IF4@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:38:43 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:39:54 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> To: Henrik Nilsen Omma Message-id: <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:38:46 -0000 On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > Chris Jones wrote: > > ... > > > > In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > > for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > > SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > > fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". > Chris, > > Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the > state internally in SOK? IOW: We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. regards Bill > 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked > SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. > > 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time > the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift > is clicked again you unset the flag. > > That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an > 'accessibility violation'. > > Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? > > - Henrik > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Mon Jun 26 19:51:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E3D03B0011 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 19:51:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23446-08 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 19:51:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.197]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3169F3B00A1 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 19:51:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i1so1971854nzh for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.252.42 with SMTP id z42mr8821381nzh; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.73.15 with HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:51:32 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-Reply-To: <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.495 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.095, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.495 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:51:36 -0000 But this very same thing makes it very awkward who want sticky keys on the keyboard and non-sticky on a physical. Which would be true for all non-a11y users and some a11y users. In the end though the only manner it interferes with my keyboard is the annoying dialogue that pops up, and the average gnome-ally user will probably be plenty used to seeing annoying dialogs anyway. The slow keys dialogue however is another matter though. Normal operations are not resumed until it is dismissed. Which in itself incredibly annoying. When planning the SOK I wanted to stay away from the three odd dialogs that GOK pops up when it is started. The plain fact is I don't want any dialogs when starting SOK. At all. Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely unacceptable. On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > > Chris Jones wrote: > > > ... > > > > > > In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > > > for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > > > SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > > > fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". > > Chris, > > > > Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the > > state internally in SOK? IOW: > > We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. > It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build > an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use > it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. > > If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key > while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is > inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a > problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock > status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you > want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. > > google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's > section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. > > regards > > Bill > > > 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked > > SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. > > > > 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time > > the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift > > is clicked again you unset the flag. > > > > That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an > > 'accessibility violation'. > > > > Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? > > > > - Henrik > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 20:33:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 990BD3B00E4 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:33:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25514-08 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:33:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC7A63B00B9 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:32:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-03.sun.com ([192.18.39.113]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5R0Wp3I018727 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-03.sun.com by d1-sfbay-03.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J1H00101T7TKN00@d1-sfbay-03.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.25.76] by d1-sfbay-03.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J1H0092KTIRRY90@d1-sfbay-03.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:32:50 -0700 From: Peter Korn Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: Chris Jones Message-id: <44A07CB2.4090808@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.539 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.059, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.539 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:33:03 -0000 Hi Chris, I think there are two issues here. Well, three: 1. Can an on-screen keyboard implement "sticky" modifiers without using the system support for sticky modifiers? 2. Can an on-screen keyboard circumvent/disable the system support for sticky modifiers (and slow keys, and...)? 3. Is the right way to "fix" what is "broken" in GOK doing another project rather than working with the existing GOK code to "fix" those "broken" things? I suggest that #3 may be somewhat religious at this point; I'm personally saddened that we aren't at least looking seriously at GOK improvements, but fundamentally a goal of UNIX accessibility is to foster the development of a rich accessibility ecosystem - and a rich ecosystem has room for multiple approaches to similar problems (cf. Orca and Gnopernicus and LSR). I have no issues with #1 - I see no reason why an on-screen keyboard cannot have its own way of making certain modifiers sticky on its own user interface *without* doing so through the system-wide setting mechanisms. Such a decision is I think a valid user-interface policy decision of an individual application. However, it is a direct Section 508 violation for an application to override or ignore system-wide accessibility settings. It is even more egregious for an application that claims to be at least in part for people with disabilities (and thus an 'enlightened' application) to do so. So, my suggestion is that if you simply cannot possible use the system-settings for sticky keys as part of your own UI, that you make things sticky your own way; however that if the system-wide settings are on that you use and respect those (complete with the dialog box that you seem to dislike). Regards, Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. > But this very same thing makes it very awkward who want sticky keys on > the keyboard and non-sticky on a physical. Which would be true for > all non-a11y users and some a11y users. > > In the end though the only manner it interferes with my keyboard is > the annoying dialogue that pops up, and the average gnome-ally user > will probably be plenty used to seeing annoying dialogs anyway. > > The slow keys dialogue however is another matter though. Normal > operations are not resumed until it is dismissed. Which in itself > incredibly annoying. > > When planning the SOK I wanted to stay away from the three odd dialogs > that GOK pops up when it is started. The plain fact is I don't want > any dialogs when starting SOK. At all. > > Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > unacceptable. > > On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > >> On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: >> >>> Chris Jones wrote: >>> >>>> ... >>>> >>>> In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable >>>> for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the >>>> SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and >>>> fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". >>>> >>> Chris, >>> >>> Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the >>> state internally in SOK? IOW: >>> >> We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. >> It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build >> an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use >> it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. >> >> If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key >> while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is >> inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a >> problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock >> status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you >> want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. >> >> google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's >> section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. >> >> regards >> >> Bill >> >> >>> 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked >>> SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. >>> >>> 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time >>> the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift >>> is clicked again you unset the flag. >>> >>> That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an >>> 'accessibility violation'. >>> >>> Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? >>> >>> - Henrik >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >>> >> > > > From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Mon Jun 26 20:42:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B88403B0319 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:42:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26206-02 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:42:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3F033B02D1 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:42:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-03.sun.com ([192.18.39.113]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5R0gPqD019717 for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-03.sun.com by d1-sfbay-03.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J1H00101T7TKN00@d1-sfbay-03.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.25.76] by d1-sfbay-03.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J1H009XQTYLRU70@d1-sfbay-03.sun.com>; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:42:20 -0700 From: Peter Korn Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: <44A07CB2.4090808@sun.com> Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: Chris Jones Message-id: <44A07EEC.1050109@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> <44A07CB2.4090808@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.542 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.056, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.542 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:42:27 -0000 Hi Chris, One more thing. You write: > Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > unacceptable. Have you filed an RFE on this issue (seeking a way to invoke the system-wide Sticky-Keys functionality programatically without the user dialog box), or are you simply trying to "work around it"? I would hope that part of a SoC project is to at least file bugs/RFEs for things you want, even if you "work around them" for the purposes of meeting a project deadline. I would hope that filing bugs/RFEs is part of the purview of SoC projects. Regards, Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. > Hi Chris, > > I think there are two issues here. Well, three: > > 1. Can an on-screen keyboard implement "sticky" modifiers without using > the system support for sticky modifiers? > 2. Can an on-screen keyboard circumvent/disable the system support for > sticky modifiers (and slow keys, and...)? > 3. Is the right way to "fix" what is "broken" in GOK doing another > project rather than working with the existing GOK code to "fix" those > "broken" things? > > I suggest that #3 may be somewhat religious at this point; I'm > personally saddened that we aren't at least looking seriously at GOK > improvements, but fundamentally a goal of UNIX accessibility is to > foster the development of a rich accessibility ecosystem - and a rich > ecosystem has room for multiple approaches to similar problems (cf. Orca > and Gnopernicus and LSR). > > I have no issues with #1 - I see no reason why an on-screen keyboard > cannot have its own way of making certain modifiers sticky on its own > user interface *without* doing so through the system-wide setting > mechanisms. Such a decision is I think a valid user-interface policy > decision of an individual application. > > However, it is a direct Section 508 violation for an application to > override or ignore system-wide accessibility settings. It is even more > egregious for an application that claims to be at least in part for > people with disabilities (and thus an 'enlightened' application) to do so. > > > So, my suggestion is that if you simply cannot possible use the > system-settings for sticky keys as part of your own UI, that you make > things sticky your own way; however that if the system-wide settings are > on that you use and respect those (complete with the dialog box that you > seem to dislike). > > > Regards, > > Peter Korn > Accessibility Architect, > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > >> But this very same thing makes it very awkward who want sticky keys on >> the keyboard and non-sticky on a physical. Which would be true for >> all non-a11y users and some a11y users. >> >> In the end though the only manner it interferes with my keyboard is >> the annoying dialogue that pops up, and the average gnome-ally user >> will probably be plenty used to seeing annoying dialogs anyway. >> >> The slow keys dialogue however is another matter though. Normal >> operations are not resumed until it is dismissed. Which in itself >> incredibly annoying. >> >> When planning the SOK I wanted to stay away from the three odd dialogs >> that GOK pops up when it is started. The plain fact is I don't want >> any dialogs when starting SOK. At all. >> >> Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one >> dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely >> unacceptable. >> >> On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: >> >> >>> On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Chris Jones wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> ... >>>>> >>>>> In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable >>>>> for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the >>>>> SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and >>>>> fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Chris, >>>> >>>> Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the >>>> state internally in SOK? IOW: >>>> >>>> >>> We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. >>> It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build >>> an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use >>> it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. >>> >>> If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key >>> while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is >>> inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a >>> problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock >>> status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you >>> want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. >>> >>> google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's >>> section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. >>> >>> regards >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> >>> >>>> 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked >>>> SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. >>>> >>>> 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time >>>> the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift >>>> is clicked again you unset the flag. >>>> >>>> That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an >>>> 'accessibility violation'. >>>> >>>> Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? >>>> >>>> - Henrik >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >>>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >>>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > From cerha@brailcom.org Tue Jun 27 03:30:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 380E63B02F3 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 03:30:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12733-05 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 03:30:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gate.brailcom.cz (158-84-244-84.strcechy.adsl-llu.static.bluetone.cz [84.244.84.158]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C08F93B0224 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 03:30:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 12155 invoked from network); 27 Jun 2006 09:09:08 +0200 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.15.2?) (192.168.15.2) by ns.brailcom.xx with SMTP; 27 Jun 2006 09:09:08 +0200 Message-ID: <44A0FAB5.7070906@brailcom.org> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:30:29 +0200 From: Tomas Cerha Organization: Brailcom, o.p.s. User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060626091722.GA16369@themuso.com> In-Reply-To: <20060626091722.GA16369@themuso.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.394 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.070, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.394 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 07:30:33 -0000 Luke Yelavich wrote: > Mind I ask when this is likely to be completed? > If you would like testers, I would be happy to put my hand up and try. Hi Luke, I hope to be able to make something available this week, but can't promise, since I'm at Guadec and it might be hard to find some spare time. If not, then I'll be back at work by the middle of July. I will definitely announce it as soon as there is something. Best regards, Tomas. -- Brailcom, o.p.s. http://www.brailcom.org Free(b)soft project http://www.freebsoft.org Eurochance project http://eurochance.brailcom.org From obert01@terramitica.net Tue Jun 27 05:58:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFB0B3B02C5 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 05:58:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21911-02 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 05:58:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sunset.terramitica.net (terramitica.net [82.230.142.140]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0F573B0088 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 05:58:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sunset.terramitica.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6D84D1FFC1; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:57:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:57:47 +0200 From: Olivier BERT To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech Message-ID: <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.567 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.032, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.567 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 09:58:45 -0000 > I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This > bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher > offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, this > may be essential for some people and the Orca -> Gnome Speech -> Speech > Dispatcher -> synthesizer aproach has inherent problems. This might > solve your problem too. > > Please, see also the common "TTS API" draft at > http://www.freebsoft.org/tts-api. This is a common effort of Free > Desktop and FSG. Very very good idea. Unfortunately, gnome-speech was not very stable, sometimes speech randomly stops. And it's true that it will optimize the speech chain. orca -> gnome speech -> speech-dispatcher -> synthesis was quite long :) And so, it must be nearly impossible to debug it. So thanks very much Tomas for this work ! -- Olivier BERT e-mail: obert01@mistigri.org Etudiant a l'E.P.I.T.A. (cycle ingenieur, 3eme annee) Tel: 06 07 69 79 71 From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Tue Jun 27 06:55:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AE9B3B009A for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 06:55:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24503-05 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 06:55:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EA133B006C for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 06:55:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5RAtKd4008557 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 04:55:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1I00501MBGFB@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:55:19 +0100 (BST) Received: from dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM (dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM [129.156.226.143]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1I002FWMC7GU@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:55:19 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:56:31 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: To: Chris Jones Message-id: <1151405791.7083.10.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.497 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.101, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.497 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 10:55:57 -0000 Hi Chris: I'll try to respond to each of your points in turn: On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 00:51, Chris Jones wrote: > But this very same thing makes it very awkward who want sticky keys on > the keyboard and non-sticky on a physical. Which would be true for > all non-a11y users and some a11y users. I don't understand what you are saying here, "the very same thing." My suggestion to use XKB client API would make it quite feasible for the physical keyboard to be non-sticky and for the onscreen keyboard to be sticky. Please re-read my post and check the XKB APIs. If after investigating it you still can't find what you are looking for, email me and I will try to assist - but you should read section 10.6 of the XKBlib manual first. > In the end though the only manner it interferes with my keyboard is > the annoying dialogue that pops up, and the average gnome-ally user > will probably be plenty used to seeing annoying dialogs anyway. The dialog pops up because you are indeed turning on SlowKeys. This is because of the way in which you are implementing sticky-keys in your application. What you should avoid is generating a key-press without a following key-release, since this triggers SlowKeys just as it does when you press and hold the Shift key on the physical keyboard. Perhaps you are talking about some other dialog as well? I'm afraid it's not clear from your messages. > The slow keys dialogue however is another matter though. Normal > operations are not resumed until it is dismissed. Which in itself > incredibly annoying. Without it, the keyboard would silently begin to require long press and hold sequences in order to work; this is necessary for users with some types of disabilities, but it's essential that the end user be warned when the keyboard's behavior is being changed in this way (in response to end user action, which is the case here). > When planning the SOK I wanted to stay away from the three odd dialogs > that GOK pops up when it is started. The plain fact is I don't want > any dialogs when starting SOK. At all. You can make GOK suppress those warnings I believe. If you do get them, READ THEM, they are telling you that your system has serious configuration issues which may make GOK unusable! > Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > unacceptable. This isn't at all true. You can easily programmatically turn this feature on when your keyboard starts, and turn it off when it exits - you can even turn the feature on and off when the mouse enters and leaves your keyboard, if that's what you want. Bear in mind that ANY onscreen keyboard that uses the mouse will fail to work properly when used to pop up menus, etc. via keyboard navigation, because of system toolkit pointer grabs. Are you aware of that fact? It will strike your onscreen keyboard as well. This is the reason for GOK's somewhat brittle configuration requirements, and the reason you are warned not to use GOK via the system core pointer. Bill > On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote > > > Chris Jones wrote: > > > > ... > > > > > > > > In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > > > > for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > > > > SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > > > > fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". > > > Chris, > > > > > > Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the > > > state internally in SOK? IOW: > > > > We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. > > It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build > > an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use > > it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. > > > > If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key > > while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is > > inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a > > problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock > > status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you > > want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. > > > > google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's > > section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. > > > > regards > > > > Bill > > > > > 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked > > > SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. > > > > > > 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time > > > the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift > > > is clicked again you unset the flag. > > > > > > That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an > > > 'accessibility violation'. > > > > > > Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? > > > > > > - Henrik > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > -- > Chris Jones > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Tue Jun 27 06:57:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D80933B00FF for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 06:57:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24638-04 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 06:57:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 877CE3B0098 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 06:57:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5RAvL7o009675 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 04:57:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1I00501MBGFB@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:57:20 +0100 (BST) Received: from dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM (dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM [129.156.226.143]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1I0021LMFKGU@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:57:20 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:58:32 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: <44A07EEC.1050109@sun.com> To: Peter Korn Message-id: <1151405912.7083.13.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> <44A07CB2.4090808@sun.com> <44A07EEC.1050109@sun.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.498 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.498 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 10:57:47 -0000 On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 01:42, Peter Korn wrote: > Hi Chris, > > One more thing. You write: > > > Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > > dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > > unacceptable. > > Have you filed an RFE on this issue (seeking a way to invoke the > system-wide Sticky-Keys functionality programatically without the user > dialog box), This is trivial to do. If you modify the key via gconf API, either by linking to gconf or just spawning a gconftool-2 command line, then you can change these settings without triggering the warning dialogs. If this has somehow regressed (it has worked on every system I know of, for several years), then a bug needs to be filed. Billy > or are you simply trying to "work around it"? I would hope > that part of a SoC project is to at least file bugs/RFEs for things you > want, even if you "work around them" for the purposes of meeting a > project deadline. I would hope that filing bugs/RFEs is part of the > purview of SoC projects. > > Regards, > > > Peter Korn > Accessibility Architect, > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > > Hi Chris, > > > > I think there are two issues here. Well, three: > > > > 1. Can an on-screen keyboard implement "sticky" modifiers without using > > the system support for sticky modifiers? > > 2. Can an on-screen keyboard circumvent/disable the system support for > > sticky modifiers (and slow keys, and...)? > > 3. Is the right way to "fix" what is "broken" in GOK doing another > > project rather than working with the existing GOK code to "fix" those > > "broken" things? > > > > I suggest that #3 may be somewhat religious at this point; I'm > > personally saddened that we aren't at least looking seriously at GOK > > improvements, but fundamentally a goal of UNIX accessibility is to > > foster the development of a rich accessibility ecosystem - and a rich > > ecosystem has room for multiple approaches to similar problems (cf. Orca > > and Gnopernicus and LSR). > > > > I have no issues with #1 - I see no reason why an on-screen keyboard > > cannot have its own way of making certain modifiers sticky on its own > > user interface *without* doing so through the system-wide setting > > mechanisms. Such a decision is I think a valid user-interface policy > > decision of an individual application. > > > > However, it is a direct Section 508 violation for an application to > > override or ignore system-wide accessibility settings. It is even more > > egregious for an application that claims to be at least in part for > > people with disabilities (and thus an 'enlightened' application) to do so. > > > > > > So, my suggestion is that if you simply cannot possible use the > > system-settings for sticky keys as part of your own UI, that you make > > things sticky your own way; however that if the system-wide settings are > > on that you use and respect those (complete with the dialog box that you > > seem to dislike). > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Peter Korn > > Accessibility Architect, > > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > > > > >> But this very same thing makes it very awkward who want sticky keys on > >> the keyboard and non-sticky on a physical. Which would be true for > >> all non-a11y users and some a11y users. > >> > >> In the end though the only manner it interferes with my keyboard is > >> the annoying dialogue that pops up, and the average gnome-ally user > >> will probably be plenty used to seeing annoying dialogs anyway. > >> > >> The slow keys dialogue however is another matter though. Normal > >> operations are not resumed until it is dismissed. Which in itself > >> incredibly annoying. > >> > >> When planning the SOK I wanted to stay away from the three odd dialogs > >> that GOK pops up when it is started. The plain fact is I don't want > >> any dialogs when starting SOK. At all. > >> > >> Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > >> dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > >> unacceptable. > >> > >> On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > >> > >> > >>> On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> Chris Jones wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> ... > >>>>> > >>>>> In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > >>>>> for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > >>>>> SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > >>>>> fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> Chris, > >>>> > >>>> Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the > >>>> state internally in SOK? IOW: > >>>> > >>>> > >>> We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. > >>> It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build > >>> an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use > >>> it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. > >>> > >>> If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key > >>> while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is > >>> inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a > >>> problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock > >>> status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you > >>> want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. > >>> > >>> google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's > >>> section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. > >>> > >>> regards > >>> > >>> Bill > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked > >>>> SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. > >>>> > >>>> 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time > >>>> the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift > >>>> is clicked again you unset the flag. > >>>> > >>>> That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an > >>>> 'accessibility violation'. > >>>> > >>>> Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? > >>>> > >>>> - Henrik > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > >>>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > >>>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Tue Jun 27 07:39:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FE523B00B3 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 07:39:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26317-07 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 07:39:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36A743B0008 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 07:39:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5RBdWO3020902 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 05:39:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1I00401O8QXW@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:39:32 +0100 (BST) Received: from dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM (dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM [129.156.226.143]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1I00FEIODV70@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:39:32 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:40:44 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech In-reply-to: <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> To: Olivier BERT Message-id: <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.504 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.094, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.504 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:39:41 -0000 On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 10:57, Olivier BERT wrote: > > I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This > > bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher > > offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, Does Speech Dispatcher support something other than Festival now? Gnome-speech has support for quite a few speech engines including some commercial ones with much clearer speech. Unfortunately one of the best values and clearest sounding options, 'Theta' from Cepstral, has been obsoleted by the new Cepstral Swift engine; we need someone to port the Theta support over the Cepstral. While free voices and engines are really important, for some users clarity of speech is paramount, so it's important to have support for at least the less expensive non-free TTS engines. I don't have any objection to using Speech Dispatcher as a common back-end, if there are more resources available to keep it up to date compared to gnome-speech. But we shouldn't move over entirely until we have comparable driver support. One area where Speech Dispatcher seems to be ahead is in support for non-English Festival voices, but I think that testing is the only impediment to using the non-Engish voices in gnome-speech as well (the Festival API is the same in either case). regards Bill > this > > may be essential for some people and the Orca -> Gnome Speech -> Speech > > Dispatcher -> synthesizer aproach has inherent problems. This might > > solve your problem too. > > > > Please, see also the common "TTS API" draft at > > http://www.freebsoft.org/tts-api. This is a common effort of Free > > Desktop and FSG. > > Very very good idea. > Unfortunately, gnome-speech was not very stable, sometimes speech > randomly stops. > And it's true that it will optimize the speech chain. orca -> gnome > speech -> speech-dispatcher -> synthesis was quite long :) And so, it > must be nearly impossible to debug it. > > So thanks very much Tomas for this work ! > -- > Olivier BERT > e-mail: obert01@mistigri.org > Etudiant a l'E.P.I.T.A. (cycle ingenieur, 3eme annee) > Tel: 06 07 69 79 71 > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From wvdwalt@csir.co.za Tue Jun 27 07:55:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 687933B009B for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 07:55:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26868-08 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 07:54:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apollo.csir.co.za (mx-4.csir.co.za [146.64.10.99]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 698433B0011 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 07:54:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([146.64.19.125]) by apollo.csir.co.za (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k5RBrpgB010902; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:53:51 +0200 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k5RBohn3013165; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:50:43 +0200 Received: from localhost (wvdwalt@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) with ESMTP id k5RBohUb013155; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:50:43 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: wvdwalt owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:50:43 +0200 (SAST) From: Willem van der Walt X-X-Sender: wvdwalt@localhost.localdomain To: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech In-Reply-To: <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> Message-ID: References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-CSIR-MailScanner-Information: Please contact sys-admin at csir dot co dot za for more information X-CSIR-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: wvdwalt@csir.co.za X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.555 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.044, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.555 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:55:00 -0000 Speech-dispatcher has support for the DECTalk Software speech and Viavoice/TTSynth. It also has a generic module through which one can make it work using any synthesizer that can take text on the command-line and speak it. Speech-dispatcher is very stable, even when using an unstable generic synthesizer. Although the generic module has some limits, in practice, it works well. HTH, Willem On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Bill Haneman wrote: > On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 10:57, Olivier BERT wrote: >>> I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This >>> bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher >>> offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, > > Does Speech Dispatcher support something other than Festival now? > Gnome-speech has support for quite a few speech engines including some > commercial ones with much clearer speech. Unfortunately one of the best > values and clearest sounding options, 'Theta' from Cepstral, has been > obsoleted by the new Cepstral Swift engine; we need someone to port the > Theta support over the Cepstral. > > While free voices and engines are really important, for some users > clarity of speech is paramount, so it's important to have support for at > least the less expensive non-free TTS engines. > > I don't have any objection to using Speech Dispatcher as a common > back-end, if there are more resources available to keep it up to date > compared to gnome-speech. But we shouldn't move over entirely until we > have comparable driver support. One area where Speech Dispatcher seems > to be ahead is in support for non-English Festival voices, but I think > that testing is the only impediment to using the non-Engish voices in > gnome-speech as well (the Festival API is the same in either case). > > regards > > Bill > >> this >>> may be essential for some people and the Orca -> Gnome Speech -> Speech >>> Dispatcher -> synthesizer aproach has inherent problems. This might >>> solve your problem too. >>> >>> Please, see also the common "TTS API" draft at >>> http://www.freebsoft.org/tts-api. This is a common effort of Free >>> Desktop and FSG. >> >> Very very good idea. >> Unfortunately, gnome-speech was not very stable, sometimes speech >> randomly stops. >> And it's true that it will optimize the speech chain. orca -> gnome >> speech -> speech-dispatcher -> synthesis was quite long :) And so, it >> must be nearly impossible to debug it. >> >> So thanks very much Tomas for this work ! >> -- >> Olivier BERT >> e-mail: obert01@mistigri.org >> Etudiant a l'E.P.I.T.A. (cycle ingenieur, 3eme annee) >> Tel: 06 07 69 79 71 >> _______________________________________________ >> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > -- This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright, terms and conditions and e-mail legal notice. Views expressed herein do not necessarily represent the views of the CSIR. CSIR E-mail Legal Notice http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_eMail_Legal_Notice.html CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_Copyright.html For electronic copies of the CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions and the CSIR Legal Notice send a blank message with REQUEST LEGAL in the subject line to HelpDesk@csir.co.za. This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. MailScanner thanks Transtec Computers for their support. From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Tue Jun 27 08:26:59 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 454083B0072 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:26:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28277-08 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:26:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Sun.COM [192.18.98.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E8F03B0012 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:26:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5RCPnX2015364 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 06:26:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1I00K01PZQJ4@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:17:46 +0100 (BST) Received: from dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM (dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM [129.156.226.143]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1I00FBPQ5670@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:17:30 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:18:42 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech In-reply-to: To: Willem van der Walt Message-id: <1151410722.7842.27.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.507 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.091, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.507 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:26:59 -0000 Hi Willem: That's good news about the DECTalk and TTSynth support. If we could get a Cepstral/Swift module as well, I think we'd have the major synths covered. Perhaps the gnome-speech FreeTTS code could be ported to the SpeechDispatcher API someday, to give us two free engines (especially now that Java licensing is more acceptable to free distros). I suspect the 'generic module' may not work well for screen readers because of the need for speech markers or at least "end of speech" notification, but it's still useful for some things of course. regards Bill On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 12:50, Willem van der Walt wrote: > Speech-dispatcher has support for the DECTalk Software speech and > Viavoice/TTSynth. It also has a generic module through which one can make > it work using any synthesizer that can take text on the command-line and > speak it. > Speech-dispatcher is very stable, even when using an unstable generic > synthesizer. > Although the generic module has some limits, in practice, it works well. > HTH, Willem > > On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Bill Haneman wrote: > > > On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 10:57, Olivier BERT wrote: > >>> I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This > >>> bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher > >>> offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, > > > > Does Speech Dispatcher support something other than Festival now? > > Gnome-speech has support for quite a few speech engines including some > > commercial ones with much clearer speech. Unfortunately one of the best > > values and clearest sounding options, 'Theta' from Cepstral, has been > > obsoleted by the new Cepstral Swift engine; we need someone to port the > > Theta support over the Cepstral. > > > > While free voices and engines are really important, for some users > > clarity of speech is paramount, so it's important to have support for at > > least the less expensive non-free TTS engines. > > > > I don't have any objection to using Speech Dispatcher as a common > > back-end, if there are more resources available to keep it up to date > > compared to gnome-speech. But we shouldn't move over entirely until we > > have comparable driver support. One area where Speech Dispatcher seems > > to be ahead is in support for non-English Festival voices, but I think > > that testing is the only impediment to using the non-Engish voices in > > gnome-speech as well (the Festival API is the same in either case). > > > > regards > > > > Bill > > > >> this > >>> may be essential for some people and the Orca -> Gnome Speech -> Speech > >>> Dispatcher -> synthesizer aproach has inherent problems. This might > >>> solve your problem too. > >>> > >>> Please, see also the common "TTS API" draft at > >>> http://www.freebsoft.org/tts-api. This is a common effort of Free > >>> Desktop and FSG. > >> > >> Very very good idea. > >> Unfortunately, gnome-speech was not very stable, sometimes speech > >> randomly stops. > >> And it's true that it will optimize the speech chain. orca -> gnome > >> speech -> speech-dispatcher -> synthesis was quite long :) And so, it > >> must be nearly impossible to debug it. > >> > >> So thanks very much Tomas for this work ! > >> -- > >> Olivier BERT > >> e-mail: obert01@mistigri.org > >> Etudiant a l'E.P.I.T.A. (cycle ingenieur, 3eme annee) > >> Tel: 06 07 69 79 71 > >> _______________________________________________ > >> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > >> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > -- > This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright, terms and conditions and > e-mail legal notice. Views expressed herein do not necessarily represent the > views of the CSIR. > > CSIR E-mail Legal Notice > http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_eMail_Legal_Notice.html > > CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions > http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_Copyright.html > > For electronic copies of the CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions and the CSIR > Legal Notice send a blank message with REQUEST LEGAL in the subject line to > HelpDesk@csir.co.za. > > > This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, > and is believed to be clean. MailScanner thanks Transtec Computers for their support. > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From wvdwalt@csir.co.za Tue Jun 27 08:38:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DDF33B0011 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:38:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28814-05 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:38:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apollo.csir.co.za (mx-4.csir.co.za [146.64.10.99]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2CFD3B0072 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:38:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([146.64.19.125]) by apollo.csir.co.za (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k5RCaUHp001391; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:36:30 +0200 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k5RCXMJn028019; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:33:22 +0200 Received: from localhost (wvdwalt@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) with ESMTP id k5RCXM19028011; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:33:22 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: wvdwalt owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:33:22 +0200 (SAST) From: Willem van der Walt X-X-Sender: wvdwalt@localhost.localdomain To: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech In-Reply-To: <1151410722.7842.27.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> Message-ID: References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> <1151410722.7842.27.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-CSIR-MailScanner-Information: Please contact sys-admin at csir dot co dot za for more information X-CSIR-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: wvdwalt@csir.co.za X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.559 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.040, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.559 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:38:34 -0000 Speech-dispatcher in general works well with screen readers. I am using it with its generic module as I am writing this email. It stops speech by killing the command-line program that is executed by the generic module. This works better than one would expect. When testing Orca or Gnopernicus, I these days always use the speech-dispatcher driver in gnome-speech to drive a synth through the generic speech-dispatcher module. As I recall, Swift also has some command-line program that can say a phrase or two, so it should be relativly easy to make that work also. Regards, Willem On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Bill Haneman wrote: > Hi Willem: > > That's good news about the DECTalk and TTSynth support. If we could get > a Cepstral/Swift module as well, I think we'd have the major synths > covered. Perhaps the gnome-speech FreeTTS code could be ported to the > SpeechDispatcher API someday, to give us two free engines (especially > now that Java licensing is more acceptable to free distros). > > I suspect the 'generic module' may not work well for screen readers > because of the need for speech markers or at least "end of speech" > notification, but it's still useful for some things of course. > > regards > > Bill > > On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 12:50, Willem van der Walt wrote: >> Speech-dispatcher has support for the DECTalk Software speech and >> Viavoice/TTSynth. It also has a generic module through which one can make >> it work using any synthesizer that can take text on the command-line and >> speak it. >> Speech-dispatcher is very stable, even when using an unstable generic >> synthesizer. >> Although the generic module has some limits, in practice, it works well. >> HTH, Willem >> >> On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Bill Haneman wrote: >> >>> On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 10:57, Olivier BERT wrote: >>>>> I'm currently working on Speech Dispatcher backend for Orca. This >>>>> bypasses the Gnome Speech layer completely. Since Speech Dispatcher >>>>> offers several speech synthesizers not supported by Gnome Speech, >>> >>> Does Speech Dispatcher support something other than Festival now? >>> Gnome-speech has support for quite a few speech engines including some >>> commercial ones with much clearer speech. Unfortunately one of the best >>> values and clearest sounding options, 'Theta' from Cepstral, has been >>> obsoleted by the new Cepstral Swift engine; we need someone to port the >>> Theta support over the Cepstral. >>> >>> While free voices and engines are really important, for some users >>> clarity of speech is paramount, so it's important to have support for at >>> least the less expensive non-free TTS engines. >>> >>> I don't have any objection to using Speech Dispatcher as a common >>> back-end, if there are more resources available to keep it up to date >>> compared to gnome-speech. But we shouldn't move over entirely until we >>> have comparable driver support. One area where Speech Dispatcher seems >>> to be ahead is in support for non-English Festival voices, but I think >>> that testing is the only impediment to using the non-Engish voices in >>> gnome-speech as well (the Festival API is the same in either case). >>> >>> regards >>> >>> Bill >>> >>>> this >>>>> may be essential for some people and the Orca -> Gnome Speech -> Speech >>>>> Dispatcher -> synthesizer aproach has inherent problems. This might >>>>> solve your problem too. >>>>> >>>>> Please, see also the common "TTS API" draft at >>>>> http://www.freebsoft.org/tts-api. This is a common effort of Free >>>>> Desktop and FSG. >>>> >>>> Very very good idea. >>>> Unfortunately, gnome-speech was not very stable, sometimes speech >>>> randomly stops. >>>> And it's true that it will optimize the speech chain. orca -> gnome >>>> speech -> speech-dispatcher -> synthesis was quite long :) And so, it >>>> must be nearly impossible to debug it. >>>> >>>> So thanks very much Tomas for this work ! >>>> -- >>>> Olivier BERT >>>> e-mail: obert01@mistigri.org >>>> Etudiant a l'E.P.I.T.A. (cycle ingenieur, 3eme annee) >>>> Tel: 06 07 69 79 71 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >>>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >>>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >>> >> >> -- >> This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright, terms and conditions and >> e-mail legal notice. Views expressed herein do not necessarily represent the >> views of the CSIR. >> >> CSIR E-mail Legal Notice >> http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_eMail_Legal_Notice.html >> >> CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions >> http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_Copyright.html >> >> For electronic copies of the CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions and the CSIR >> Legal Notice send a blank message with REQUEST LEGAL in the subject line to >> HelpDesk@csir.co.za. >> >> >> This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, >> and is believed to be clean. MailScanner thanks Transtec Computers for their support. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > -- This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright, terms and conditions and e-mail legal notice. Views expressed herein do not necessarily represent the views of the CSIR. CSIR E-mail Legal Notice http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_eMail_Legal_Notice.html CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions http://mail.csir.co.za/CSIR_Copyright.html For electronic copies of the CSIR Copyright, Terms and Conditions and the CSIR Legal Notice send a blank message with REQUEST LEGAL in the subject line to HelpDesk@csir.co.za. This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. MailScanner thanks Transtec Computers for their support. From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Tue Jun 27 11:04:08 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C04763B0012 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:04:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04869-01 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:04:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.199]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9A9F3B0133 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:04:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 13so238241nzn for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.22.68 with SMTP id z68mr4475507nzi; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.73.15 with HTTP; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:03:35 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-Reply-To: <1151405912.7083.13.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> <44A07CB2.4090808@sun.com> <44A07EEC.1050109@sun.com> <1151405912.7083.13.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.494 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.093, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.494 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:04:08 -0000 "The very same thing" refers to where you say that disabled users will complain if the onscreen keyboard conflicts with sticky keys. What I am trying to say is that an onscreen keyboard should work whether sticky keys is on or not. Surely an application changing system wide settings just so it can run, is an accessibility violation as the user might rely on non-sticky behaviour on the physical keyboard. In other words one input device should not change the behaviour of all the others. You keep referring to xkblib. To get this to work I would have to change the x config to have an extra keyboard device. The XTest api I am currently using does not allow me to specify which keyboard device I am emulating either. I have difficulty seeing how I could use this. I understand the need for the dialogs. If the system-wide settings are changing then I agree a dialog is needed. This is yet another reason why I do not want to change the system wide settings. I can see why GOK behaves as it does. My opinion though is that it is not acceptable, another method must be found to solve the issue. Bill Haneman said: >Bear in mind that ANY onscreen keyboard that uses the mouse will fail to >work properly when used to pop up menus, etc. via keyboard navigation, >because of system toolkit pointer grabs. Are you aware of that fact? >It will strike your onscreen keyboard as well. This is the reason for >GOK's somewhat brittle configuration requirements, and the reason you >are warned not to use GOK via the system core pointer. I find this difficult to understand, surely pop up menus are a pointer operation to begin with, and that it is possible to emulate this with a physical keyboard. I fail to see the point of emulating this emulation with a pointer. Except if one was using a pointer to emulate a scanning device. Perhaps it would make more sense to disconnect the core pointer when GOK enters it's scanning mode? Maybe it is just impossible to design a one-size fits all onscreen keyboard. As evidenced by GOK, the result is a keyboard that is accessible to everyone but usable by no-one. On 27/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 01:42, Peter Korn wrote: > > Hi Chris, > > > > One more thing. You write: > > > > > Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > > > dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > > > unacceptable. > > > > Have you filed an RFE on this issue (seeking a way to invoke the > > system-wide Sticky-Keys functionality programatically without the user > > dialog box), > > This is trivial to do. If you modify the key via gconf API, either by > linking to gconf or just spawning a gconftool-2 command line, then you > can change these settings without triggering the warning dialogs. If > this has somehow regressed (it has worked on every system I know of, for > several years), then a bug needs to be filed. > > Billy > > > or are you simply trying to "work around it"? I would hope > > that part of a SoC project is to at least file bugs/RFEs for things you > > want, even if you "work around them" for the purposes of meeting a > > project deadline. I would hope that filing bugs/RFEs is part of the > > purview of SoC projects. > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Peter Korn > > Accessibility Architect, > > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > > > > Hi Chris, > > > > > > I think there are two issues here. Well, three: > > > > > > 1. Can an on-screen keyboard implement "sticky" modifiers without using > > > the system support for sticky modifiers? > > > 2. Can an on-screen keyboard circumvent/disable the system support for > > > sticky modifiers (and slow keys, and...)? > > > 3. Is the right way to "fix" what is "broken" in GOK doing another > > > project rather than working with the existing GOK code to "fix" those > > > "broken" things? > > > > > > I suggest that #3 may be somewhat religious at this point; I'm > > > personally saddened that we aren't at least looking seriously at GOK > > > improvements, but fundamentally a goal of UNIX accessibility is to > > > foster the development of a rich accessibility ecosystem - and a rich > > > ecosystem has room for multiple approaches to similar problems (cf. Orca > > > and Gnopernicus and LSR). > > > > > > I have no issues with #1 - I see no reason why an on-screen keyboard > > > cannot have its own way of making certain modifiers sticky on its own > > > user interface *without* doing so through the system-wide setting > > > mechanisms. Such a decision is I think a valid user-interface policy > > > decision of an individual application. > > > > > > However, it is a direct Section 508 violation for an application to > > > override or ignore system-wide accessibility settings. It is even more > > > egregious for an application that claims to be at least in part for > > > people with disabilities (and thus an 'enlightened' application) to do so. > > > > > > > > > So, my suggestion is that if you simply cannot possible use the > > > system-settings for sticky keys as part of your own UI, that you make > > > things sticky your own way; however that if the system-wide settings are > > > on that you use and respect those (complete with the dialog box that you > > > seem to dislike). > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Peter Korn > > > Accessibility Architect, > > > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > > > > > > > >> But this very same thing makes it very awkward who want sticky keys on > > >> the keyboard and non-sticky on a physical. Which would be true for > > >> all non-a11y users and some a11y users. > > >> > > >> In the end though the only manner it interferes with my keyboard is > > >> the annoying dialogue that pops up, and the average gnome-ally user > > >> will probably be plenty used to seeing annoying dialogs anyway. > > >> > > >> The slow keys dialogue however is another matter though. Normal > > >> operations are not resumed until it is dismissed. Which in itself > > >> incredibly annoying. > > >> > > >> When planning the SOK I wanted to stay away from the three odd dialogs > > >> that GOK pops up when it is started. The plain fact is I don't want > > >> any dialogs when starting SOK. At all. > > >> > > >> Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > > >> dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > > >> unacceptable. > > >> > > >> On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >>> On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>> Chris Jones wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>> ... > > >>>>> > > >>>>> In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > > >>>>> for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > > >>>>> SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > > >>>>> fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>> Chris, > > >>>> > > >>>> Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the > > >>>> state internally in SOK? IOW: > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. > > >>> It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build > > >>> an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use > > >>> it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. > > >>> > > >>> If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key > > >>> while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is > > >>> inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a > > >>> problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock > > >>> status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you > > >>> want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. > > >>> > > >>> google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's > > >>> section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. > > >>> > > >>> regards > > >>> > > >>> Bill > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>> 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked > > >>>> SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. > > >>>> > > >>>> 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time > > >>>> the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift > > >>>> is clicked again you unset the flag. > > >>>> > > >>>> That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an > > >>>> 'accessibility violation'. > > >>>> > > >>>> Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? > > >>>> > > >>>> - Henrik > > >>>> > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > >>>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > >>>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From hanke@brailcom.org Tue Jun 27 11:06:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3773D3B0106 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:06:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05080-01 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:06:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp-out4.iol.cz (smtp-out4.iol.cz [194.228.2.92]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 844FA3B00E2 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:06:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from antivir4.iol.cz (avir4 [192.168.30.209]) by smtp-out4.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id E011A743C2 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:06:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (antivir4.iol.cz [127.0.0.1]) by antivir4.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id CADA6240024 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:06:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp-out4.iol.cz (smtp-out-4.iplanet.iol.cz [192.168.30.31]) by antivir4.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88F7C240021 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:06:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.36] (77.93.broadband2.iol.cz [83.208.93.77]) by smtp-out4.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14E2622AF58 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:06:09 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech From: Hynek Hanke To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:04:37 +0200 Message-Id: <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at iol.cz X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.464 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.464 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:06:46 -0000 Hello, I'd like to address a few points. * First, as we discussed on accessibility@freedesktop.org (if someone is not subscribed, you are welcome to join), we want to create a new API to access speech synthesis. This shouldn't be looked at as "yet-another" speech API. Rather, we did some prototypes in Gnome Speech, Speech Dispatcher and KTTSD and found some dead ends and some new requirements. Also, in the Speech Dispatcher especially we found the most clean way to proceed forwards is to split it into two separate parts: one message handling and prioritization and the second interface with speech engines. So with a fresh mind, several people were working on putting down our common (Brailcom projects, Speakup, Gnome, KDE) requirements on such speech API. This document is fairly complete by now and we are at the point when we are starting implementation. The most beneficial way how to contribute to speech synthesis support right now is to help with TTS API and when the infrastructure is in place, develop modules for TTS API. (Not that we will rewrite all modules, I already know the existing Dispatcher modules will require only minor modifications in short term.) This doesn't address the problem of how Gnome applications should interface with it. Either Gnome Speech could be modified to use TTS API or the applications go through some other tool like Speech Dispatcher. I think an Orca module for Speech Dispatcher makes very much sense. An important thing is that both projects are desktop independent. * Another thing several people asked were dates. As for the Orca module for Dispatcher, Tomas already answered the question. The TTS API implementation we hope to have finished in time for the KDE developers to connect KTTS with Speech Dispatcher for KDE4. Also, next major Speech Dispatcher release will already work on top of TTS API and several major improvements will be made to its interface (SSIP). Of course, this is all hopes. * Enrico suggested we should use Festival C API instead of talking to it via TCP. Also Olivier mentioned the whole chain to be too long and source of troubles. However, I suspect the problem is not in the chain being too long as much as in both Festival and Gnome Speech lacking proper detailed logs. In Speech Dispatcher we also use Festival via TCP (actually Gnome Speech doesn't, it runs the binary) and to my experience, this is a good advantage for debugging. It is very easy to log the communication with Festival, so for the developer it is easy to see what went wrong if something does. It is also easy to send very informative bug reports. Also, we have found the connection randomly crashes for no apparent reason. It is indeed far better if we can just detect it, log it and create a new connection and reset the parameters automatically (as we do now) than if such a crash would bring down the whole module (if we were using the C API) for no clear reason. (Another one: in the current version of Dispatcher, sometimes a very mysterious segfault happens. I suspect this has something to do with ALSA, but it is very hard to tell as we link ALSA directly and the crash is not reproducible in testing circumstances...) Now, one of the big problems is that Festival doesn't offer proper logs. It would often refuse connection for a stupid typo in the configuration file and not give any clue to the user. This is something which should be fixed. * The generic output module proved to be very useful. But I must object to the claim that it can do mostly everything. It can talk and provide the basic level of synchronization information necessary for screen readers, but it doesn't support any more advanced things. Users don't notice with Speakup because Speakup doesn't use more advanced capabilities of the synthesizer, but you would surely very soon notice the difference with Festival in clients like speechd-el which use its full power. A native module is much better when someone does it. But TTS API will provide a generic module too and I already have a list of things which I'd like to improve. * I hope the Cepstrall/Swift and FreeTTS modules will be ported under TTS API eventually. At least this was the intention. Have an API that doesn't limit anyone and move everything there to a common code base which we can mantain together. Thanks for attention. I apologize for a long post. With regards, Hynek Hanke From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Tue Jun 27 11:23:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 778703B010A for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:23:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05508-07 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:22:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0D133B009B for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:22:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5RFMMn5028702 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 09:22:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1I00601YM47U@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:22:21 +0100 (BST) Received: from dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM (dhcp-226-143.Ireland.Sun.COM [129.156.226.143]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1I007X7YP9BI@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:22:21 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:23:33 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: [g-a-devel] Slow keys dialog In-reply-to: To: Chris Jones Message-id: <1151421813.7842.72.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151333390.7079.11.camel@linux.site> <44A0517A.1020001@ubuntu.com> <1151361594.7079.90.camel@linux.site> <44A07CB2.4090808@sun.com> <44A07EEC.1050109@sun.com> <1151405912.7083.13.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.51 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.088, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.51 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:23:00 -0000 On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 16:03, Chris Jones wrote: > "The very same thing" refers to where you say that disabled users will > complain if the onscreen keyboard conflicts with sticky keys. > > What I am trying to say is that an onscreen keyboard should work > whether sticky keys is on or not. By its very nature, an onscreen keyboard (which will be emulating physical keypresses) will interact with the physical keyboard driver and settings. This means that interoperability with things like XKB is just a requirement of the task at hand. > Surely an application changing system wide settings just so it can > run, is an accessibility violation as the user might rely on > non-sticky behaviour on the physical keyboard. In other words one > input device should not change the behaviour of all the others. I have suggested several alternatives. It is folly to create an onscreen keyboard which emulates physical keypresses and then pretend that it is independent of the physical keyboard - it's just not realistic, since you'll be using Xtest "Fake" API to fake key presses anyway. > You keep referring to xkblib. To get this to work I would have to > change the x config to have an extra keyboard device. That is not true! > The XTest api I > am currently using does not allow me to specify which keyboard device > I am emulating either. I have difficulty seeing how I could use this. Have you read the document section which I recommended to you? It allows you to programmatically change the latch state of specific modifiers, WITHOUT simulating a "press-and-hold". It allows you to do this in a way that does not change the way the physical keyboard works, and doesn't trigger any warning dialogs. XKB is available by default on the XOrg server, so you shouldn't need to change your X configuration at all. > I understand the need for the dialogs. If the system-wide settings > are changing then I agree a dialog is needed. This is yet another > reason why I do not want to change the system wide settings. The dialog does not post anytime the system-wide settings change - it only posts in response to a change which it believes comes from the SlowKeys or StickyKeys keyboard gesture. As long as your keyboard latches keys by simulating a key press and then simulating a release at a later time in the future, you will collide with this dialog, because you are invoking the SlowKeys gesture. Period. If you don't like that you can turn off the keyboard shortcuts, i.e. make it so that holding the shift key down doesn't turn on SlowKeys; however you should not make that the default for new users. > I can see why GOK behaves as it does. My opinion though is that it is > not acceptable, another method must be found to solve the issue. We'll be able to help you better if you are a little more open to our suggestions. Bill > Bill Haneman said: > > >Bear in mind that ANY onscreen keyboard that uses the mouse will fail to > >work properly when used to pop up menus, etc. via keyboard navigation, > >because of system toolkit pointer grabs. Are you aware of that fact? > >It will strike your onscreen keyboard as well. This is the reason for > >GOK's somewhat brittle configuration requirements, and the reason you > >are warned not to use GOK via the system core pointer. > > I find this difficult to understand, surely pop up menus are a pointer > operation to begin with, and that it is possible to emulate this with > a physical keyboard. I fail to see the point of emulating this > emulation with a pointer. Except if one was using a pointer to > emulate a scanning device. Perhaps it would make more sense to > disconnect the core pointer when GOK enters it's scanning mode? > > Maybe it is just impossible to design a one-size fits all onscreen > keyboard. As evidenced by GOK, the result is a keyboard that is > accessible to everyone but usable by no-one. > > > On 27/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 01:42, Peter Korn wrote: > > > Hi Chris, > > > > > > One more thing. You write: > > > > > > > Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > > > > dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > > > > unacceptable. > > > > > > Have you filed an RFE on this issue (seeking a way to invoke the > > > system-wide Sticky-Keys functionality programatically without the user > > > dialog box), > > > > This is trivial to do. If you modify the key via gconf API, either by > > linking to gconf or just spawning a gconftool-2 command line, then you > > can change these settings without triggering the warning dialogs. If > > this has somehow regressed (it has worked on every system I know of, for > > several years), then a bug needs to be filed. > > > > Billy > > > > > or are you simply trying to "work around it"? I would hope > > > that part of a SoC project is to at least file bugs/RFEs for things you > > > want, even if you "work around them" for the purposes of meeting a > > > project deadline. I would hope that filing bugs/RFEs is part of the > > > purview of SoC projects. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > Peter Korn > > > Accessibility Architect, > > > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > > > > > > Hi Chris, > > > > > > > > I think there are two issues here. Well, three: > > > > > > > > 1. Can an on-screen keyboard implement "sticky" modifiers without using > > > > the system support for sticky modifiers? > > > > 2. Can an on-screen keyboard circumvent/disable the system support for > > > > sticky modifiers (and slow keys, and...)? > > > > 3. Is the right way to "fix" what is "broken" in GOK doing another > > > > project rather than working with the existing GOK code to "fix" those > > > > "broken" things? > > > > > > > > I suggest that #3 may be somewhat religious at this point; I'm > > > > personally saddened that we aren't at least looking seriously at GOK > > > > improvements, but fundamentally a goal of UNIX accessibility is to > > > > foster the development of a rich accessibility ecosystem - and a rich > > > > ecosystem has room for multiple approaches to similar problems (cf. Orca > > > > and Gnopernicus and LSR). > > > > > > > > I have no issues with #1 - I see no reason why an on-screen keyboard > > > > cannot have its own way of making certain modifiers sticky on its own > > > > user interface *without* doing so through the system-wide setting > > > > mechanisms. Such a decision is I think a valid user-interface policy > > > > decision of an individual application. > > > > > > > > However, it is a direct Section 508 violation for an application to > > > > override or ignore system-wide accessibility settings. It is even more > > > > egregious for an application that claims to be at least in part for > > > > people with disabilities (and thus an 'enlightened' application) to do so. > > > > > > > > > > > > So, my suggestion is that if you simply cannot possible use the > > > > system-settings for sticky keys as part of your own UI, that you make > > > > things sticky your own way; however that if the system-wide settings are > > > > on that you use and respect those (complete with the dialog box that you > > > > seem to dislike). > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Peter Korn > > > > Accessibility Architect, > > > > Sun Microsystems, Inc. > > > > > > > > > > > >> But this very same thing makes it very awkward who want sticky keys on > > > >> the keyboard and non-sticky on a physical. Which would be true for > > > >> all non-a11y users and some a11y users. > > > >> > > > >> In the end though the only manner it interferes with my keyboard is > > > >> the annoying dialogue that pops up, and the average gnome-ally user > > > >> will probably be plenty used to seeing annoying dialogs anyway. > > > >> > > > >> The slow keys dialogue however is another matter though. Normal > > > >> operations are not resumed until it is dismissed. Which in itself > > > >> incredibly annoying. > > > >> > > > >> When planning the SOK I wanted to stay away from the three odd dialogs > > > >> that GOK pops up when it is started. The plain fact is I don't want > > > >> any dialogs when starting SOK. At all. > > > >> > > > >> Using the system wide sticky keys means I need to have at least one > > > >> dialog box when my keyboard starts and is therefore completely > > > >> unacceptable. > > > >> > > > >> On 26/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>> On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 22:28, Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>> Chris Jones wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> ... > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> In other words I cannot spend the summer making gnome-a11y suitable > > > >>>>> for my needs. What I need is a temporary work around until after the > > > >>>>> SoC when I could find time to work on this aspect of gnome-a11y and > > > >>>>> fix my program so it is not an "accessibility violation". > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> Chris, > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Can you not simply make SOK remember that shift was pressed and keep the > > > >>>> state internally in SOK? IOW: > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> We tried this with GOK at an early stage and it was not satisfactory. > > > >>> It also clashed badly with StickyKeys. It doesn't make sense to build > > > >>> an onscreen keyboard and then not expect disabled users to try and use > > > >>> it, and they will rightly complain if it conflicts with StickyKeys. > > > >>> > > > >>> If you really are unwilling to turn on the global StickyKeys gconf key > > > >>> while the onscreen keyboard is posted, or at least when the pointer is > > > >>> inside it... (and I really do not understand why this would be a > > > >>> problem) there is XKB ABI which you can use to change the latch/lock > > > >>> status of individual modifier keys. This should do exactly what you > > > >>> want without making StickyKeys active for the physical keyboard. > > > >>> > > > >>> google for XKBlib.pdf to find the XKB client manual, I believe it's > > > >>> section 10.6 that has the relevant client APIs. > > > >>> > > > >>> regards > > > >>> > > > >>> Bill > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>> 1. when the user clicks shift you set a flag. When a letter is clicked > > > >>>> SOK sends shift++unshift to X and removes the flag. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> 2. When shift is clicked twice you set a sticky flag. Again, each time > > > >>>> the user clicks a letter, SOK sends shift++unshift. When shift > > > >>>> is clicked again you unset the flag. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> That way you avoid triggering slow keys and avoid making an > > > >>>> 'accessibility violation'. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Bill, is it an accessibility violation to have unusable accessibility tools? > > > >>>> > > > >>>> - Henrik > > > >>>> > > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > > >>>> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > >>>> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > >>>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > -- > Chris Jones > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From gk4@austin.ibm.com Tue Jun 27 14:30:28 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A72123B00D3 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:30:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12403-01 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:30:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e4.ny.us.ibm.com (e4.ny.us.ibm.com [32.97.182.144]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31DEC3B0110 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:30:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (d01relay04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.236]) by e4.ny.us.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5RITbHn001642 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:29:38 -0400 Received: from d01av02.pok.ibm.com (d01av02.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.216]) by d01relay04.pok.ibm.com (8.13.6/NCO/VER7.0) with ESMTP id k5RITbTm271228 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:29:37 -0400 Received: from d01av02.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av02.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k5RITbbJ011163 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:29:37 -0400 Received: from gk4.austin.ibm.com (gk4.austin.ibm.com [9.53.33.16]) by d01av02.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5RITaQf011141; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:29:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech From: George Kraft To: Hynek Hanke In-Reply-To: <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: IBM Corp Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:26:33 -0500 Message-Id: <1151432793.6050.13.camel@gk4.austin.ibm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 (2.0.2-3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.49 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.109, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.49 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: gk4@austin.ibm.com List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 18:30:28 -0000 On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 17:04 +0200, Hynek Hanke wrote: > talking to it via TCP. Are commercial TTS engines sufficiently isolated in this new TTS API proposal? With respect to licensing, can DECtalk and TTSynth be successfully linked to and be used? gnome-speech is providing a nice abstraction. -- George (gk4) From hanke@brailcom.org Tue Jun 27 15:58:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22F743B00A6 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:58:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15469-10 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:58:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp-out3.iol.cz (smtp-out3.iol.cz [194.228.2.91]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 862C93B009F for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:58:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from antivir3.iol.cz (avir3 [192.168.30.206]) by smtp-out3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8F53682A3; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:35:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (antivir3.iol.cz [127.0.0.1]) by antivir3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB58E42000A; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:35:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp-out3.iol.cz (smtp-out-3.iplanet.iol.cz [192.168.30.28]) by antivir3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 909D1420006; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:35:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.36] (77.93.broadband2.iol.cz [83.208.93.77]) by smtp-out3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A9583BEE5; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:35:53 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech From: Hynek Hanke To: gk4@austin.ibm.com In-Reply-To: <1151432793.6050.13.camel@gk4.austin.ibm.com> References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> <1151432793.6050.13.camel@gk4.austin.ibm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:34:24 +0200 Message-Id: <1151436865.3550.6.camel@chopin> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at iol.cz X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.464 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.464 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gap X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:58:48 -0000 George Kraft píše v Út 27. 06. 2006 v 13:26 -0500: > On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 17:04 +0200, Hynek Hanke wrote: > > talking to it via TCP. > Are commercial TTS engines sufficiently isolated in this new TTS API > proposal? With respect to licensing, can DECtalk and TTSynth be > successfully linked to and be used? I'm not sure what is the question exactly? The modules inside the TTS API implementation we are working on are supposed to run as separate processes for licensing reason and for the reason of stability. This however has little to do with the way how interfacing between the module and the synthesizer is done. Also, the paragraph of which you quote a part of a sentence had nothing to do with TTS API nor with DECtalk or TTSynth in my previous post. > gnome-speech is providing a nice abstraction. I'm sorry, I do not understand. Could you please explain? With regards, Hynek Hanke From gk4@austin.ibm.com Tue Jun 27 17:35:38 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE7F43B00D3 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:35:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18161-03 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:35:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e5.ny.us.ibm.com (e5.ny.us.ibm.com [32.97.182.145]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4C563B009D for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:35:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (d01relay02.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.234]) by e5.ny.us.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5RLY8rN016556 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:34:08 -0400 Received: from d01av02.pok.ibm.com (d01av02.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.216]) by d01relay02.pok.ibm.com (8.13.6/NCO/VER7.0) with ESMTP id k5RLXJwK261560 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:33:19 -0400 Received: from d01av02.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av02.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k5RLXIPG001437 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:33:19 -0400 Received: from gk4.austin.ibm.com (gk4.austin.ibm.com [9.53.33.16]) by d01av02.pok.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5RLXIUu001410; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:33:18 -0400 Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech From: George Kraft To: Hynek Hanke In-Reply-To: <1151436865.3550.6.camel@chopin> References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> <1151432793.6050.13.camel@gk4.austin.ibm.com> <1151436865.3550.6.camel@chopin> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: IBM Corp Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:30:14 -0500 Message-Id: <1151443815.6050.42.camel@gk4.austin.ibm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 (2.0.2-3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.499 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.499 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: gk4@austin.ibm.com List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:35:39 -0000 On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 21:34 +0200, Hynek Hanke wrote: > The modules inside the TTS > API implementation we are working on are supposed to run as separate > processes for licensing reason and for the reason of stability. You answered my malformed question. :-) Thanks. George (gk4) From enrico@enricozini.org Tue Jun 27 19:24:26 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD1B13B002A for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:24:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20951-10 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:24:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agnus.ngi.it (agnus.ngi.it [88.149.128.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B51343B006D for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:24:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (81-174-12-206.f5.ngi.it [81.174.12.206]) by agnus.ngi.it (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5RMH2rG021881 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 00:17:03 +0200 Received: from enrico by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FvL1W-0006Xm-74 for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 22:23:06 +0100 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 22:23:06 +0100 From: Enrico Zini To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech Message-ID: <20060627212306.GA24644@viaza> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ibTvN161/egqYuK8" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060403 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.68 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.774, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.558] X-Spam-Score: -1.68 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 23:24:27 -0000 --ibTvN161/egqYuK8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jun 27, 2006 at 05:04:37PM +0200, Hynek Hanke wrote: > * Enrico suggested we should use Festival C API instead of talking > to it via TCP. Also Olivier mentioned the whole chain to be too long and > source of troubles. However, I suspect the problem is not in the chain > being too long as much as in both Festival and Gnome Speech lacking > proper detailed logs. The problem that I've found in the Festival C API is that you cannot have reliable is_speaking testing / end-of-speech notification. Details: Festival can run in two modes: (audio_mode 'sync) or (audio_mode 'async). In sync mode, a (SayText "...") command would block the entire festival engine until the phrase has been fully spoken. That rules out being able to interrupt the speaking, so we don't want it. In async mode, festival runs an audio spooler called audsp as external process, then does the TTS converting text into waveforms, saves the waveforms in a file under /tmp [shivers] and tells audsp to play that file. audsp keeps listening to the pipe while playing, and supports commands like "wait until everything has been spoken" or "interrupt speaking and reset the queue". The communication protocol between festival and audsp is basically one-way, and there's currently no way for audsp to push info back to festival. This makes it impossible to notify that a wave has finished playing. There is also currently no way to ask if audsp is currently playing something or not. Festival is free software, so this is of course fixable. Having looked at the code, it's simple code and it wouldn't break if it'd be stretched a bit. But that's not improving a driver: that's improving festival (if the authors allow) and then having to depend on a very new version of it. So the proper way to implement a festival driver seems to me to use the text-to-wave function and then do a proper handling of playing the resulting wave, hopefully using the audio playing technology that's trendy at the moment. I looked into esd without understanding if it is trendy anymore, and I look at gstreamer without understanding if it isn't a bit too complicated as a default way to play a waveform. Also, not using audsp means that the festival driver wouldn't add another spawned process to keep track of. I don't know much about the APIs of other speech engines. If they all had a text-to-wave function, then it can be a wise move to implement a proper audio scheduler to share among TTS drivers, which could then (reliably) support proper integration with the audio system of the day, progress report, interruption and whatever else is needed. This would ensure that all TTS drivers would have the same (hopefully high) level of reliability wrt audio output. > Also, we have found the connection randomly crashes for no apparent > reason. It is indeed far better if we can just detect it, log it and > create a new connection and reset the parameters automatically (as we do > now) than if such a crash would bring down the whole module (if we were > using the C API) for no clear reason. (Another one: in the current > version of Dispatcher, sometimes a very mysterious segfault happens. > I suspect this has something to do with ALSA, but it is very hard to > tell as we link ALSA directly and the crash is not reproducible in > testing circumstances...) >=20 > Now, one of the big problems is that Festival doesn't offer proper logs. > It would often refuse connection for a stupid typo in the configuration > file and not give any clue to the user. This is something which should > be fixed. This can probably be fixed: festival can be told not to load any config file, and log can be implemented adding a couple of printfs before calls to the C++ API. And something like a TTS driver which becomes the main form of access to the computer should be designed to properly restart in case of segfaults in its own code, be it festival or whatever else. Ciao, Enrico --=20 GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini --ibTvN161/egqYuK8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEoaG59LSwzHl+v6sRAiE4AJ9EA6pT/x65pG8GVK8MHP1PWNaINQCeJOOO Xl+8CXjxfFSxfqqnM1uKRAs= =lEOy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ibTvN161/egqYuK8-- From enrico@enricozini.org Wed Jun 28 09:59:16 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A74633B017A; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:59:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14201-04; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:59:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agnus.ngi.it (agnus.ngi.it [88.149.128.9]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAA8D3B01E2; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:59:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (81-174-12-206.f5.ngi.it [81.174.12.206]) by agnus.ngi.it (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5SDwIwD028281; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:58:18 +0200 Received: from enrico by localhost.localdomain with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FvaXC-000293-Dz; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:56:50 +0100 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:56:50 +0100 From: Enrico Zini To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Probably found the problem with the Italian synthesis Message-ID: <20060628135650.GA6628@viaza> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-accessibility-devel@gnome.org, gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060403 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.017, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:59:16 -0000 --fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, might be around here: $ echo "Evviva il Per=C3=BA" | festival --tts --language english $ echo "Evviva il Per=C3=BA" | festival --tts --language finnish SIOD ERROR: damaged env : # $ echo "Evviva il Per=C3=BA" | festival --tts --language spanish $ echo "Evviva il Per=C3=BA" | festival --tts --language italian LTS_Ruleset italian_downcase: no rule matches: LTS_Ruleset: # P e r *here* =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD # $ =2E..especially when this comes out of the log of a crashed orca session: # grep SPEECH debug.out |tail SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Grafica menu' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Up' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Giochi menu' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Up' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Audio & Video menu' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Up' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Accessori menu' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Right' SPEECH OUTPUT: 'Alacarte - Editor di men=C3=B9' I'll now try to work on it a bit. In the meantime, I patched audsp in festival to also report the currently playing sample in the playing list. This makes two useful patches that I should start to extract properly and send around, but my main priority is still having a long-lasting Italian speech experience. Ciao, Enrico --=20 GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini --fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEooqi9LSwzHl+v6sRAqtrAJ9y2yxCiWlh3jbH/nxrzqMVyCh9MACghPal qzCsGZJ+BpKwEwJ3zDeEXi8= =FyyJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N-- From hanke@brailcom.org Wed Jun 28 11:14:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B62293B01DE for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 11:14:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17406-01 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 11:14:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp-out3.iol.cz (smtp-out3.iol.cz [194.228.2.91]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E9BC3B0167 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 11:14:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from antivir3.iol.cz (avir3 [192.168.30.206]) by smtp-out3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C22AE81B0; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:12:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (antivir3.iol.cz [127.0.0.1]) by antivir3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E6AA42000C; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:12:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp-out3.iol.cz (smtp-out-3.iplanet.iol.cz [192.168.30.28]) by antivir3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E741420006; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:12:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.36] (77.93.broadband2.iol.cz [83.208.93.77]) by smtp-out3.iol.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0EA93BEDB; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:12:27 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech From: Hynek Hanke To: Enrico Zini In-Reply-To: <20060627212306.GA24644@viaza> References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> <20060627212306.GA24644@viaza> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:11:01 +0200 Message-Id: <1151507461.3478.51.camel@chopin> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at iol.cz X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.445 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.445 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:14:13 -0000 > Festival is free software, so this is of course fixable. Having looked > at the code, it's simple code and it wouldn't break if it'd be stretched > a bit. But that's not improving a driver: that's improving festival (if > the authors allow) and then having to depend on a very new version of > it. Hi Enrico, also the problem with speech engines doing their own audio output (apart from what you said about Festival) is that this audio output needs to be configured at several places if several engines are used, many places where code needs to be updated if a new audio technology comes etc. > [...] > So the proper way to implement a festival driver seems to me to use the > text-to-wave function and then do a proper handling of playing the > resulting wave, hopefully using the audio playing technology that's > trendy at the moment. Yes, I agree. Actually this is what both Speech Dispatcher and KTTSD are doing and I think I've heard Gnome Speech would also like to go this way in the future. > I looked into esd without understanding if it is > trendy anymore, and I look at gstreamer without understanding if it > isn't a bit too complicated as a default way to play a waveform. This is fairly complicated. I've investigated into possibilities for audio output and I've ended up sumarizing our requirements if such a technology should eventually come in the future and writing my own small library for output to OSS, Alsa and NAS. Please see http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/accessibility/2005-April/000049.html and feel free to have comments. One of the problems is the latency we need. That ruled out both ESD and Gstreamer at that time, I'm not sure what is the state now with Gstreamer. Another thing is that if we are aiming for a desktop independent speech technology, we need desktop independent audio output. > I don't know much about the APIs of other speech engines. If they all > had a text-to-wave function Most of the engines do. Some don't, but this is their drawback (what if I want to have the audio synthesized and save to a file?). As you said, it is very desirable to retrieve the audio for those engines that support it. > , then it can be a wise move to implement a > proper audio scheduler to share among TTS drivers, which could then > (reliably) support proper integration with the audio system of the day, > progress report, interruption and whatever else is needed. This would > ensure that all TTS drivers would have the same (hopefully high) level > of reliability wrt audio output. Yes, that is mine dream too! Would you be wiling to help with this? I think we would first have to see what is new and consider the options again. > > Now, one of the big problems is that Festival doesn't offer proper logs. > > It would often refuse connection for a stupid typo in the configuration > > file and not give any clue to the user. This is something which should > > be fixed. > This can probably be fixed: festival can be told not to load any config > file This is not really useful. Configuration is really needed. > , and log can be implemented adding a couple of printfs before calls > to the C++ API. That is the log from the side of the speech api provider (Gnome Speech etc.). This already exists in Dispatcher and as I said is automatic from a TCP API. I was talking about logs on the side of Festival. You will never be able to discover why a particular voice was not loaded/doesn't work, why a sound icon is not playing, what is the typo in your configuration files, why is it not finding a module (wrong path) and such from just talking to Festival via its API (be it C++ or TCP). Currently the only way for the users to fix such problems is to run Festival from command line and hope it will write some cryptic message to stderr. Then what is left are guesses, past experiences with problems and black magic. We must be able to diagnose problems. >> [from my earlier post] >> Now, one of the big problems is that Festival doesn't offer proper >> logs. You say you find the Festival C code clear and modifications not difficult. If this could be fixed, that would be superb. I don't think Alan would object to include the patch. And it would not introduce a dependency for us. I don't know however how soon it could get into some official release. But I think it is worth looking into. > And something like a TTS driver which becomes the main > form of access to the computer should be designed to properly restart in > case of segfaults in its own code, be it festival or whatever else. Yes, this is something we tried in Speech Dispatcher, but it doesn't always work. We should get this part right in TTS API. The objection that with the TCP API it is easier to see what part is crashing, after which commands exactly, however remains. With regards, Hynek Hanke From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Wed Jun 28 12:35:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8EC53B03F3 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:35:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21095-10 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:35:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 425753B02C2 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:35:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5SGZSpR001661 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 10:35:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1K00M01WMQ6S@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:35:28 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-9.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.9]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1K00D5UWR30M@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:35:28 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:36:40 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: Fixing gnome-speech In-reply-to: <1151507461.3478.51.camel@chopin> To: Hynek Hanke Message-id: <1151512600.7045.91.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20060624111316.GA20448@viaza> <449FA559.1050508@brailcom.org> <20060627095747.GC15166@sunset.terramitica.net> <1151408443.7842.5.camel@dhcp-226-143.ireland.sun.com> <1151420677.3488.73.camel@chopin> <20060627212306.GA24644@viaza> <1151507461.3478.51.camel@chopin> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Enrico Zini , gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:35:51 -0000 Hi Hynek, All: I'm not sure I agree that speech engines should not do their own audio output. While I think you have identified some real problems with that approach, it's not clear that the ".wav file" approach has a low enough latency. If tests show that latency is not a problem, then passing the synthesized audio bits to the driver for processing (perhaps via multiplexing/mixing in most situations, or for pre-emptive audio in others) does seem to have advantages. Hynek, I think you've also identified a good reason for one of the "many layers" in our architecture... we don't really want a bug in the speech engine to crash our TTS service. Using a C API, even when licenses permit, usually means sharing process space with the driver, and for many drivers the code is closed-source, making diagnosis and recovery very difficult indeed. In such a situation we probably need to implement the process-space separation in our own TTS architecture, so that we can restart the engine when things go badly wrong. regards Bill On Wed, 2006-06-28 at 16:11, Hynek Hanke wrote: > > Festival is free software, so this is of course fixable. Having looked > > at the code, it's simple code and it wouldn't break if it'd be stretched > > a bit. But that's not improving a driver: that's improving festival (if > > the authors allow) and then having to depend on a very new version of > > it. > > Hi Enrico, > > also the problem with speech engines doing their own audio output > (apart from what you said about Festival) is that this audio output > needs to be configured at several places if several engines are used, > many places where code needs to be updated if a new audio technology > comes etc. > > > [...] > > So the proper way to implement a festival driver seems to me to use the > > text-to-wave function and then do a proper handling of playing the > > resulting wave, hopefully using the audio playing technology that's > > trendy at the moment. > > Yes, I agree. Actually this is what both Speech Dispatcher and KTTSD are > doing and I think I've heard Gnome Speech would also like to go this way > in the future. > > > I looked into esd without understanding if it is > > trendy anymore, and I look at gstreamer without understanding if it > > isn't a bit too complicated as a default way to play a waveform. > > This is fairly complicated. I've investigated into possibilities for > audio output and I've ended up sumarizing our requirements if such a > technology should eventually come in the future and writing my own > small library for output to OSS, Alsa and NAS. Please see > http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/accessibility/2005-April/000049.html > and feel free to have comments. One of the problems is the latency we > need. That ruled out both ESD and Gstreamer at that time, I'm not sure > what is the state now with Gstreamer. Another thing is that if we are > aiming for a desktop independent speech technology, we need desktop > independent audio output. > > > I don't know much about the APIs of other speech engines. If they all > > had a text-to-wave function > > Most of the engines do. Some don't, but this is their drawback (what if > I want to have the audio synthesized and save to a file?). As you said, > it is very desirable to retrieve the audio for those engines that > support it. > > > , then it can be a wise move to implement a > > proper audio scheduler to share among TTS drivers, which could then > > (reliably) support proper integration with the audio system of the day, > > progress report, interruption and whatever else is needed. This would > > ensure that all TTS drivers would have the same (hopefully high) level > > of reliability wrt audio output. > > Yes, that is mine dream too! Would you be wiling to help with this? > I think we would first have to see what is new and consider the options > again. > > > > Now, one of the big problems is that Festival doesn't offer proper logs. > > > It would often refuse connection for a stupid typo in the configuration > > > file and not give any clue to the user. This is something which should > > > be fixed. > > This can probably be fixed: festival can be told not to load any config > > file > > This is not really useful. Configuration is really needed. > > > , and log can be implemented adding a couple of printfs before calls > > to the C++ API. > > That is the log from the side of the speech api provider (Gnome Speech > etc.). This already exists in Dispatcher and as I said is automatic from > a TCP API. I was talking about logs on the side of Festival. > > You will never be able to discover why a particular voice was not > loaded/doesn't work, why a sound icon is not playing, what is the typo > in your configuration files, why is it not finding a module (wrong path) > and such from just talking to Festival via its API (be it C++ or TCP). > > Currently the only way for the users to fix such problems is to run > Festival from command line and hope it will write some cryptic message > to stderr. Then what is left are guesses, past experiences with problems > and black magic. We must be able to diagnose problems. > > >> [from my earlier post] > >> Now, one of the big problems is that Festival doesn't offer proper > >> logs. > > You say you find the Festival C code clear and modifications not > difficult. If this could be fixed, that would be superb. I don't think > Alan would object to include the patch. And it would not introduce > a dependency for us. I don't know however how soon it could get > into some official release. But I think it is worth looking into. > > > And something like a TTS driver which becomes the main > > form of access to the computer should be designed to properly restart in > > case of segfaults in its own code, be it festival or whatever else. > > Yes, this is something we tried in Speech Dispatcher, but it doesn't > always work. We should get this part right in TTS API. The objection > that with the TCP API it is easier to see what part is crashing, after > which commands exactly, however remains. > > With regards, > Hynek Hanke > > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Wed Jun 28 16:08:59 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B8E03B031A for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:08:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31786-04 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:08:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3FDC3B0511 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:08:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-05.sun.com ([192.18.39.115]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5SK8WXs001460 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-05.sun.com by d1-sfbay-05.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J1L006016EG9200@d1-sfbay-05.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.150.23.60] by d1-sfbay-05.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J1L00BY16M73330@d1-sfbay-05.sun.com>; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:08:29 -0700 From: Peter Korn Subject: Audio recordings from the CSUN Orca & Open Document Format Accessibility sessions now available Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: Gnome accessibility , FSG Accessibility , kde-accessibility@kde.org, accessibility@freedesktop.org, brltty@mielke.cc Message-id: <44A2E1BD.9010803@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.546 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.052, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.546 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:08:59 -0000 Greetings, After a bit of a delay, audio recordings of the two Orca sessions and the ODF Accessibility Panel are now available, for your listening pleasure. We have them up in Ogg Vorbis format (of course). Please see http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/korn/20060628 for details, links, etc. Thanks to Mike Paciello for securing copies of these recordings. Note: you can also view the video directly, through the TV Worldwide website (assuming you have a Windows system to do so...). Regards, Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Wed Jun 28 17:43:05 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 657283B00A3 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:43:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03179-02 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:43:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.207]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D9E03B00AE for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:43:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id n29so631932nzf for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.97.8 with SMTP id u8mr1894344nzb; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.73.15 with HTTP; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:43:03 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: docked window mode in GOk and SOK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.492 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.092, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.492 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:43:05 -0000 SOK is simple onscreen keyboard I am writing to compliment GOK. It is a summer of code project. I've been trying to implement a dock window mode for SOK like that which GOK has. Unfortunately my effort was met with a plethora of problems. Support for such docked windows is unpredictable under dual screens and can cause windows to get stuck or disappear etc. There's not much I can do about this but file bug reports. Attaching GOK or SOK to an edge which has a panel attached results in a focus "war" betwixt the two. I'm planning to work round this by reading the gconf keys for the panel and adjusting the placement of SOK accordingly. Does GOK have a solution in the pipeline? Can anyone think of a better way to go about this? -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Wed Jun 28 20:09:24 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 411C33B0139 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:09:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09072-04 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:09:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Sun.COM [192.18.98.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A1DD3B016E for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:09:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5T08v08022628 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 18:08:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1L00H01HBGZ1@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 01:08:57 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-116-57.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.116.57]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1L00BEBHQXD3@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 01:08:57 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 01:10:10 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: docked window mode in GOk and SOK In-reply-to: To: Chris Jones Message-id: <1151539810.7061.18.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.58 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.58 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 00:09:24 -0000 Hi Chris: There's no good solution to the "share a dock area" problem. We recommend that you don't use both top and bottom panels when running an onscreen keyboard, for this reason. The straightforward solution is to remove either the top or bottom panel, and then use that edge to dock your keyboard. Otherwise you could waste^^H^H^spend a lot of time trying to work around this. I don't believe there's any way to put multiple docks on one edge reliably unless those docks share code (this is how gnome-panel manages this), or some new IPC is invented whereby the docks can share info (and then you have to convince all the users of _NET_WM_STRUT to implement that IPC - good luck!). The existing X API for struts just doesn't accommodate this scenario. regards, Bill On Wed, 2006-06-28 at 22:43, Chris Jones wrote: > SOK is simple onscreen keyboard I am writing to compliment GOK. It is > a summer of code project. > > > I've been trying to implement a dock window mode for SOK like that > which GOK has. > > Unfortunately my effort was met with a plethora of problems. > > Support for such docked windows is unpredictable under dual screens > and can cause windows to get stuck or disappear etc. There's not much > I can do about this but file bug reports. > > Attaching GOK or SOK to an edge which has a panel attached results in > a focus "war" betwixt the two. I'm planning to work round this by > reading the gconf keys for the panel and adjusting the placement of > SOK accordingly. Does GOK have a solution in the pipeline? Can > anyone think of a better way to go about this? > > -- > Chris Jones > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Thu Jun 29 07:02:44 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A80A83B0078 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:02:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05708-04 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:02:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.198]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98E903B010A for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:02:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 8so140092nzo for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 04:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.140.2 with SMTP id n2mr2793650nzd; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 04:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.73.15 with HTTP; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 04:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:02:42 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: docked window mode in GOk and SOK In-Reply-To: <1151539810.7061.18.camel@linux.site> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1151539810.7061.18.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.492 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.092, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.492 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 11:02:44 -0000 Well I think it is possible to detect if the panel is running through dbus, and it's location is stored in gconf. This should be easy to implement. I've already tested it by hardcoding an offset, all that remains to do is reading the gconf values. I don't quite understand this apathy. No other part of the desktop would put up with such an annoying bug. I don't see why it is acceptable here. On 29/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > Hi Chris: > > There's no good solution to the "share a dock area" problem. We > recommend that you don't use both top and bottom panels when running an > onscreen keyboard, for this reason. > > The straightforward solution is to remove either the top or bottom > panel, and then use that edge to dock your keyboard. Otherwise you > could waste^^H^H^spend a lot of time trying to work around this. > > I don't believe there's any way to put multiple docks on one edge > reliably unless those docks share code (this is how gnome-panel manages > this), or some new IPC is invented whereby the docks can share info (and > then you have to convince all the users of _NET_WM_STRUT to implement > that IPC - good luck!). The existing X API for struts just doesn't > accommodate this scenario. > > > regards, > > Bill > > On Wed, 2006-06-28 at 22:43, Chris Jones wrote: > > SOK is simple onscreen keyboard I am writing to compliment GOK. It is > > a summer of code project. > > > > > > I've been trying to implement a dock window mode for SOK like that > > which GOK has. > > > > Unfortunately my effort was met with a plethora of problems. > > > > Support for such docked windows is unpredictable under dual screens > > and can cause windows to get stuck or disappear etc. There's not much > > I can do about this but file bug reports. > > > > Attaching GOK or SOK to an edge which has a panel attached results in > > a focus "war" betwixt the two. I'm planning to work round this by > > reading the gconf keys for the panel and adjusting the placement of > > SOK accordingly. Does GOK have a solution in the pipeline? Can > > anyone think of a better way to go about this? > > > > -- > > Chris Jones > > > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Thu Jun 29 07:12:22 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 269443B0196 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:12:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06178-06 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:12:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A3A83B0078 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:12:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5TBCIZo017365 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 05:12:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1M00701C9XWA@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:12:18 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-116-82.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.116.82]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1M008FPCGHN4@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:12:17 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:13:31 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: docked window mode in GOk and SOK In-reply-to: To: Chris Jones Message-id: <1151579611.7091.17.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151539810.7061.18.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.58 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.58 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 11:12:22 -0000 Reading the gconf values isn't a fully robust solution, since the panel is not the only thing that might use _NET_WM_STRUTS. It's not apathy, it just that fixing this the right way would require new WM API. Bill On Thu, 2006-06-29 at 12:02, Chris Jones wrote: > Well I think it is possible to detect if the panel is running through > dbus, and it's location is stored in gconf. This should be easy to > implement. I've already tested it by hardcoding an offset, all that > remains to do is reading the gconf values. > > I don't quite understand this apathy. No other part of the desktop > would put up with such an annoying bug. I don't see why it is > acceptable here. > > On 29/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > Hi Chris: > > > > There's no good solution to the "share a dock area" problem. We > > recommend that you don't use both top and bottom panels when running an > > onscreen keyboard, for this reason. > > > > The straightforward solution is to remove either the top or bottom > > panel, and then use that edge to dock your keyboard. Otherwise you > > could waste^^H^H^spend a lot of time trying to work around this. > > > > I don't believe there's any way to put multiple docks on one edge > > reliably unless those docks share code (this is how gnome-panel manages > > this), or some new IPC is invented whereby the docks can share info (and > > then you have to convince all the users of _NET_WM_STRUT to implement > > that IPC - good luck!). The existing X API for struts just doesn't > > accommodate this scenario. > > > > > > regards, > > > > Bill > > > > On Wed, 2006-06-28 at 22:43, Chris Jones wrote: > > > SOK is simple onscreen keyboard I am writing to compliment GOK. It is > > > a summer of code project. > > > > > > > > > I've been trying to implement a dock window mode for SOK like that > > > which GOK has. > > > > > > Unfortunately my effort was met with a plethora of problems. > > > > > > Support for such docked windows is unpredictable under dual screens > > > and can cause windows to get stuck or disappear etc. There's not much > > > I can do about this but file bug reports. > > > > > > Attaching GOK or SOK to an edge which has a panel attached results in > > > a focus "war" betwixt the two. I'm planning to work round this by > > > reading the gconf keys for the panel and adjusting the placement of > > > SOK accordingly. Does GOK have a solution in the pipeline? Can > > > anyone think of a better way to go about this? > > > > > > -- > > > Chris Jones > > > > > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > > > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > -- > Chris Jones > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From skating.tortoise@gmail.com Thu Jun 29 08:47:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CF183B0275 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:47:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12023-08 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:47:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.205]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F3013B00CB for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:47:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id s1so116679nze for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 05:47:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.77.2 with SMTP id z2mr2949809nza; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 05:47:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.73.15 with HTTP; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 05:47:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 13:47:46 +0100 From: "Chris Jones" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: docked window mode in GOk and SOK In-Reply-To: <1151579611.7091.17.camel@linux.site> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1151539810.7061.18.camel@linux.site> <1151579611.7091.17.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.491 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.091, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.491 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:47:48 -0000 Agreed but it will do for now. Are there any plans for a new WM API. I don't think we can just leave this. On 29/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > Reading the gconf values isn't a fully robust solution, since the panel > is not the only thing that might use _NET_WM_STRUTS. > > It's not apathy, it just that fixing this the right way would require > new WM API. > > Bill > > On Thu, 2006-06-29 at 12:02, Chris Jones wrote: > > Well I think it is possible to detect if the panel is running through > > dbus, and it's location is stored in gconf. This should be easy to > > implement. I've already tested it by hardcoding an offset, all that > > remains to do is reading the gconf values. > > > > I don't quite understand this apathy. No other part of the desktop > > would put up with such an annoying bug. I don't see why it is > > acceptable here. > > > > On 29/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > > Hi Chris: > > > > > > There's no good solution to the "share a dock area" problem. We > > > recommend that you don't use both top and bottom panels when running an > > > onscreen keyboard, for this reason. > > > > > > The straightforward solution is to remove either the top or bottom > > > panel, and then use that edge to dock your keyboard. Otherwise you > > > could waste^^H^H^spend a lot of time trying to work around this. > > > > > > I don't believe there's any way to put multiple docks on one edge > > > reliably unless those docks share code (this is how gnome-panel manages > > > this), or some new IPC is invented whereby the docks can share info (and > > > then you have to convince all the users of _NET_WM_STRUT to implement > > > that IPC - good luck!). The existing X API for struts just doesn't > > > accommodate this scenario. > > > > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > On Wed, 2006-06-28 at 22:43, Chris Jones wrote: > > > > SOK is simple onscreen keyboard I am writing to compliment GOK. It is > > > > a summer of code project. > > > > > > > > > > > > I've been trying to implement a dock window mode for SOK like that > > > > which GOK has. > > > > > > > > Unfortunately my effort was met with a plethora of problems. > > > > > > > > Support for such docked windows is unpredictable under dual screens > > > > and can cause windows to get stuck or disappear etc. There's not much > > > > I can do about this but file bug reports. > > > > > > > > Attaching GOK or SOK to an edge which has a panel attached results in > > > > a focus "war" betwixt the two. I'm planning to work round this by > > > > reading the gconf keys for the panel and adjusting the placement of > > > > SOK accordingly. Does GOK have a solution in the pipeline? Can > > > > anyone think of a better way to go about this? > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Chris Jones > > > > > > > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > > > > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Chris Jones > > > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > > _______________________________________________ > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > -- Chris Jones jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Thu Jun 29 08:59:04 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DD563B0078 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:59:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12865-06 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:59:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 178A23B011B for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:59:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5TCwk4T017434 for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 06:59:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J1M00901HD4HI@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 13:58:54 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-117-173.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.117.173]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J1M0082MHE5N4@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 13:58:53 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 14:00:07 +0100 From: Bill Haneman Subject: Re: docked window mode in GOk and SOK In-reply-to: To: Chris Jones Message-id: <1151586006.14116.6.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1151539810.7061.18.camel@linux.site> <1151579611.7091.17.camel@linux.site> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.58 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.58 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:59:04 -0000 On Thu, 2006-06-29 at 13:47, Chris Jones wrote: > Agreed but it will do for now. > > Are there any plans for a new WM API. I don't think we can just leave this. The wm-spec-list@gnome.org is the place to take the discussion. Good luck convincing folks of the value of multiple docks on the same edge of the screen, though... seems like a usability misfeature. At least where GOK was concerned it seemed preferable to reduce the number of panels. The second panel in Gnome doesn't add much functionality that couldn't be achieved by just combining the two panels. Of course you can also work around this by putting both Gnome panels on the same edge of the screen, which arguably would result in better usability anyhow. I think there is value in having the onscreen keyboard sit "on its own", having it share the edge with a panel means it's harder for the user to quickly scan for the desired characters. Bill > On 29/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > Reading the gconf values isn't a fully robust solution, since the panel > > is not the only thing that might use _NET_WM_STRUTS. > > > > It's not apathy, it just that fixing this the right way would require > > new WM API. > > > > Bill > > > > On Thu, 2006-06-29 at 12:02, Chris Jones wrote: > > > Well I think it is possible to detect if the panel is running through > > > dbus, and it's location is stored in gconf. This should be easy to > > > implement. I've already tested it by hardcoding an offset, all that > > > remains to do is reading the gconf values. > > > > > > I don't quite understand this apathy. No other part of the desktop > > > would put up with such an annoying bug. I don't see why it is > > > acceptable here. > > > > > > On 29/06/06, Bill Haneman wrote: > > > > Hi Chris: > > > > > > > > There's no good solution to the "share a dock area" problem. We > > > > recommend that you don't use both top and bottom panels when running an > > > > onscreen keyboard, for this reason. > > > > > > > > The straightforward solution is to remove either the top or bottom > > > > panel, and then use that edge to dock your keyboard. Otherwise you > > > > could waste^^H^H^spend a lot of time trying to work around this. > > > > > > > > I don't believe there's any way to put multiple docks on one edge > > > > reliably unless those docks share code (this is how gnome-panel manages > > > > this), or some new IPC is invented whereby the docks can share info (and > > > > then you have to convince all the users of _NET_WM_STRUT to implement > > > > that IPC - good luck!). The existing X API for struts just doesn't > > > > accommodate this scenario. > > > > > > > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > On Wed, 2006-06-28 at 22:43, Chris Jones wrote: > > > > > SOK is simple onscreen keyboard I am writing to compliment GOK. It is > > > > > a summer of code project. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've been trying to implement a dock window mode for SOK like that > > > > > which GOK has. > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately my effort was met with a plethora of problems. > > > > > > > > > > Support for such docked windows is unpredictable under dual screens > > > > > and can cause windows to get stuck or disappear etc. There's not much > > > > > I can do about this but file bug reports. > > > > > > > > > > Attaching GOK or SOK to an edge which has a panel attached results in > > > > > a focus "war" betwixt the two. I'm planning to work round this by > > > > > reading the gconf keys for the panel and adjusting the placement of > > > > > SOK accordingly. Does GOK have a solution in the pipeline? Can > > > > > anyone think of a better way to go about this? > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Chris Jones > > > > > > > > > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > > > > > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Chris Jones > > > > > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > > > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > > > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > > > > > -- > Chris Jones > > jabber - skating.tortoise@gmail.com > msn - skating_tortoise@dsl.pipex.com > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From tward1978@earthlink.net Fri Jun 30 04:35:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B18513B0071 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 04:35:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04966-08 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 04:35:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-gadwall.atl.sa.earthlink.net (pop-gadwall.atl.sa.earthlink.net [207.69.195.61]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 068553B007D for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 04:35:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dialup-4.224.186.152.dial1.cincinnati1.level3.net ([4.224.186.152]) by pop-gadwall.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1FwETF-0000dB-00 for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 04:35:26 -0400 Message-ID: <44A4E251.8000207@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 04:35:29 -0400 From: Thomas Ward User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Gnome and Ubuntu 6.06? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.464 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.479, BAYES_40=-0.185, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2] X-Spam-Score: -0.464 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:35:27 -0000 Hi, list. This might seam like a really stupid question, but I have been hearing allot about Ubuntu Linux which I'd like to try, and don't have a fricking clue on how to get it up and working. I have spent hours reading the Ubuntu sight and can't even find a basic install guide for it. So here is the question. What do I need to get a basic Ubuntu system up and running with gnome 2.14 and gnopernicus or orca? While I am at it it might help to tell me what disk I need the desktop, server, or other disk image. I've already got the desktop disk and can't figure how to install it nor can I find the packages on the disk so I am all screwed up with this distribution. As I said I need someone to help me with the very very very basics of even stalling, setup, and telling me what is what. I know nothing about Ubuntu and they have like 0 setup and install guides that I can find. Any help? Thanks. From jasonw@ariel.its.unimelb.edu.au Fri Jun 30 05:29:35 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F07E63B007D for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 05:29:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07948-09 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 05:29:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net (smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net [203.16.214.181]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD72F3B0073 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 05:29:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jdc.local (ppp184-31.lns2.mel4.internode.on.net [59.167.184.31] (may be forged)) by smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net (8.13.6/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k5U9TVho038402 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 18:59:31 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from jasonw@ariel.its.unimelb.edu.au) Received: by jdc.local (Postfix, from userid 1000) id EA8B0781438C; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 19:29:30 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 19:29:30 +1000 From: Jason White To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Gnome and Ubuntu 6.06? Message-ID: <20060630092930.GA9048@jdc> Mail-Followup-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org References: <44A4E251.8000207@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <44A4E251.8000207@earthlink.net> User-Agent: mutt-ng/devel-r774 (Debian) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.436 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.029, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.436 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:29:35 -0000 Ubuntu is based on the Debian GNU/Linux distribution, and reputedly uses an installer based on Debian's. Thus you may find the Debian installation guide helpful for the basic operating system installation process. http://www.debian.org/ (look under "documentation"). I am sure Ubuntu users subscribed to this list will suggest how you can most easily set it up to run Gnopernicus, Orca or whatever you need. From bmustillrose@gmail.com Fri Jun 30 05:38:14 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17C253B0073 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 05:38:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08654-05 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 05:38:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.190]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59A4D3B007D for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 05:38:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id c29so246584nfb for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 02:38:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.48.235.13 with SMTP id i13mr143064nfh; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 02:38:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.48.42.3 with HTTP; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 02:38:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4285e65e0606300238s246e637dk54df4e1a449ab2c5@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 10:38:10 +0100 From: "ben mustill-rose" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Gnome and Ubuntu 6.06? In-Reply-To: <20060630092930.GA9048@jdc> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <44A4E251.8000207@earthlink.net> <20060630092930.GA9048@jdc> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.5 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:38:14 -0000 Hi. I am also new to ubuntu, and installed it some time ago with sighted assistanse. I downloaded the desktop 6.06 iso and berned it to a cd. You will need sighted help to install this and to install gnopernicus or orca. Once you have everything set up, click aplications, (alt f1) and click manage programs; (i don't think its called that, but its something like that). If you are connected to the internet, a list of programs that you can download will load, just find gnopernicus in there. Note that orca is not in this list, and that i have had PROBLEMS using gnopernicus along side ubuntu 6.06 and gnome. BEN. On 30/06/06, Jason White wrote: > Ubuntu is based on the Debian GNU/Linux distribution, and reputedly uses an > installer based on Debian's. Thus you may find the Debian installation guide > helpful for the basic operating system installation process. > http://www.debian.org/ (look under "documentation"). > > I am sure Ubuntu users subscribed to this list will suggest how you can most > easily set it up to run Gnopernicus, Orca or whatever you need. > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > From tward1978@earthlink.net Fri Jun 30 08:19:42 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AAEF3B01F6 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:19:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18008-10 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:19:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-canoe.atl.sa.earthlink.net (pop-canoe.atl.sa.earthlink.net [207.69.195.66]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A52D3B030B for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:19:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dialup-4.224.39.23.dial1.cincinnati1.level3.net ([4.224.39.23]) by pop-canoe.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1FwHyF-0000fY-00 for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:19:39 -0400 Message-ID: <44A516DF.9080107@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:19:43 -0400 From: Thomas Ward User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Gnome and Ubuntu 6.06? References: <44A4E251.8000207@earthlink.net> <20060630092930.GA9048@jdc> In-Reply-To: <20060630092930.GA9048@jdc> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.557 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.614, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.456] X-Spam-Score: -1.557 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 12:19:42 -0000 Hi, Jason. Thanks for the information. I just read through the Debian installation manual, and while it seams strait forward I don't think it reflects what I am seeing as far as Ubuntu 6.06 desktop version. Now, the manual did mention using a preconfiguration script which would allow one to do an autoinstall of Debian. I wonder if the same is true for Ubuntu, and how much different is the preconfiguration script etc from Debian in Ubuntu. As I am blind and don't have much help around an autoinstallation or a terminal install is esentual for me getting this thing on my system. So I will be doing this the hard way. Wish more distributions were like Fedora and allowed for autoinstalls, telnet installs, and terminal installs. My hope and desire is to run say an autoinstall have it get it on, reboot in to gnome, and fire up gnopernicus after login. Is that a reasonable expectation for Ubuntu or am I barking up the wrong tree. I can do this with Fedora but can't do this with most other distributions, but I am hoping Ubuntu will be able to do this as well. Jason White wrote: > Ubuntu is based on the Debian GNU/Linux distribution, and reputedly uses an > installer based on Debian's. Thus you may find the Debian installation guide > helpful for the basic operating system installation process. > http://www.debian.org/ (look under "documentation"). > > I am sure Ubuntu users subscribed to this list will suggest how you can most > easily set it up to run Gnopernicus, Orca or whatever you need. > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > > > From tward1978@earthlink.net Fri Jun 30 08:23:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5E603B033A for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:23:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18297-10 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:23:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop-canoe.atl.sa.earthlink.net (pop-canoe.atl.sa.earthlink.net [207.69.195.66]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0E733B012D for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:23:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dialup-4.224.39.23.dial1.cincinnati1.level3.net ([4.224.39.23]) by pop-canoe.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1FwI1d-0001My-00; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:23:09 -0400 Message-ID: <44A517B1.5000802@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:23:13 -0400 From: Thomas Ward User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ben mustill-rose Subject: Re: Gnome and Ubuntu 6.06? References: <44A4E251.8000207@earthlink.net> <20060630092930.GA9048@jdc> <4285e65e0606300238s246e637dk54df4e1a449ab2c5@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4285e65e0606300238s246e637dk54df4e1a449ab2c5@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.309 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.366, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.456] X-Spam-Score: -1.309 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 12:23:13 -0000 Hi, Ben. What happens if you don't have an internet connection at the time. I am assuming from your post the Ubuntu desktop cd doesn't contain gnopernicus. If not I am basicly screwed. Anyone know if the server eddition or the alternative install version has gnopernicus? I need to get this thing installed, fire up gnopernicus, basicly without sighted aid, and once I have speech up I can add packages, setup internet connection, etc. ben mustill-rose wrote: > Hi. > > I am also new to ubuntu, and installed it some time ago with sighted assistanse. > > I downloaded the desktop 6.06 iso and berned it to a cd. > You will need sighted help to install this and to install gnopernicus or orca. > Once you have everything set up, click aplications, (alt f1) and click > manage programs; (i don't think its called that, but its something > like that). > If you are connected to the internet, a list of programs that you can > download will load, just find gnopernicus in there. > Note that orca is not in this list, and that i have had PROBLEMS using > gnopernicus along side ubuntu 6.06 and gnome. > > BEN. > From ricaradu@gmail.com Fri Jun 30 09:27:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FCC63B028E for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:27:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22210-03 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:27:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.188]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E52773B033B for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:27:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id o25so268745nfa for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 06:27:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.97.7 with SMTP id u7mr111158hub; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 06:27:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from linbetwin ( [85.186.214.190]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id y1sm517270hua.2006.06.30.06.27.16; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 06:27:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000801c69c48$e793a870$bed6ba55@linbetwin> From: "Aurelian Radu" To: "Thomas Ward" , "ben mustill-rose" References: <44A4E251.8000207@earthlink.net> <20060630092930.GA9048@jdc><4285e65e0606300238s246e637dk54df4e1a449ab2c5@mail.gmail.com> <44A517B1.5000802@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Gnome and Ubuntu 6.06? Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 16:27:14 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.4 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 13:27:20 -0000 Hi, Thomas, Gnopernicus is on the desktop CD and on the alternate CD. Just put the CD into the drive and reboot your machine. Make sure your computer boots from the CD drive first. If you have the desktop CD, your computer will boot into a LiveCD, which is basically an OS that runs from the CD. On the desktop you will see an icon for installing the system. Double-click on it and you will see that installation is very simple. Be careful with partitioning! Do you have free space on the HDD, or an empty partition that you can format without losing data ? About Gnopernicus: what do you need ? The text-to-speech program or the magnifier ? Once you've installed Ubuntu, go to System > Preferences > Assistive technologies. Enable assistive technologies and select the module you want to load (speech, magnifier, braille, onscreen keyboard...). Then click Log Out, log back in and you'll have Gnopernicus on. Are you familiar with other Linux distributions ? Do you know what root is ? If yes, don't worry if Ubuntu doesn't ask you to create a root password. You can use sudo with your user password to execute commands with administrator privileges. I'll be glad to help you if you have more questions. Have a trouble-free install ! Aurelian Radu ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Ward" To: "ben mustill-rose" Cc: Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 3:23 PM Subject: Re: Gnome and Ubuntu 6.06? > Hi, Ben. > What happens if you don't have an internet connection at the time. I am > assuming from your post the Ubuntu desktop cd doesn't contain > gnopernicus. If not I am basicly screwed. > Anyone know if the server eddition or the alternative install version > has gnopernicus? I need to get this thing installed, fire up > gnopernicus, basicly without sighted aid, and once I have speech up I > can add packages, setup internet connection, etc. > > > > ben mustill-rose wrote: >> Hi. >> >> I am also new to ubuntu, and installed it some time ago with sighted >> assistanse. >> >> I downloaded the desktop 6.06 iso and berned it to a cd. >> You will need sighted help to install this and to install gnopernicus or >> orca. >> Once you have everything set up, click aplications, (alt f1) and click >> manage programs; (i don't think its called that, but its something >> like that). >> If you are connected to the internet, a list of programs that you can >> download will load, just find gnopernicus in there. >> Note that orca is not in this list, and that i have had PROBLEMS using >> gnopernicus along side ubuntu 6.06 and gnome. >> >> BEN. >> > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Fri Jun 30 12:09:55 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D9303B02B3 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 12:09:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31379-05 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 12:09:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (nwkea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.42.249]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B782A3B013F for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 12:09:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-sfbay-09.sun.com ([192.18.39.119]) by nwkea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k5UG9nvx010680 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-sfbay-09.sun.com by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J1O00701KVI1T00@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM) for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([63.207.212.14]) by d1-sfbay-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J1O00FKTKWAY360@d1-sfbay-09.sun.com>; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:09:43 -0700 From: Peter Korn Subject: Re: Gnome and Ubuntu 6.06? In-reply-to: <44A4E251.8000207@earthlink.net> Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: Thomas Ward Message-id: <44A54CC7.30206@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <44A4E251.8000207@earthlink.net> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 16:09:55 -0000 Hi Thomas, Please see http://live.gnome.org/Orca/UbuntuDapperDrake for instructions on getting Orca up and running on Ubuntu version 6.0.6 (known as the "Dapper Drake" release). Regards, Peter Korn Accessibility Architect, Sun Microsystems, Inc. > Hi, list. > This might seam like a really stupid question, but I have been hearing > allot about Ubuntu Linux which I'd like to try, and don't have a > fricking clue on how to get it up and working. I have spent hours > reading the Ubuntu sight and can't even find a basic install guide for > it. So here is the question. What do I need to get a basic Ubuntu system > up and running with gnome 2.14 and gnopernicus or orca? > While I am at it it might help to tell me what disk I need the desktop, > server, or other disk image. I've already got the desktop disk and can't > figure how to install it nor can I find the packages on the disk so I am > all screwed up with this distribution. As I said I need someone to help > me with the very very very basics of even stalling, setup, and telling > me what is what. I know nothing about Ubuntu and they have like 0 setup > and install guides that I can find. > Any help? > Thanks. > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list > From christian08@runbox.com Fri Jun 30 16:58:44 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FB913B02A6 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 16:58:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13720-02 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 16:58:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aibo.runbox.com (aibo.runbox.com [193.71.199.94]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 093B93B0293 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 16:58:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.9.9.160] (helo=penny.runbox.com ident=Debian-exim) by greyhound.runbox.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1FwQ4Y-0004Fd-7Y for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 22:58:42 +0200 Received: from [81.216.142.231] (helo=127.0.0.1) by penny.runbox.com with esmtpsa (uid:521761 ) (SSL 3.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32) (Exim 4.50) id 1FwQ4Y-0001kX-3I for gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 22:58:42 +0200 Message-ID: <200606302258440015.0018CE09@127.0.0.1> X-Mailer: Courier 3.50.00.09.1098 (http://www.rosecitysoftware.com) (P) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 22:58:44 +0200 From: "Christian" To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Need help with installing latest Ubuntu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 20:58:44 -0000 Hello all, Finally, I managed to run the latest Live CD of Ubuntu and use Gnopernicus.= However, I cant install Ubuntu onto my system. I know that the installer= doesn't talk without doing some things. As a none Linux expert, I have to ask a few questions! When to execute sudo -s? I did this when I pressed Alt+F2 for run. Should I= close Gnopernicus first? I did so. After I had enter sudo -s and pressed enter I entered gnopernicus from= there but nothing happened. Please, give me any direction. I really want to install this system! Many thanks, Christian From bjsn@ozemail.com.au Fri Jun 30 19:53:32 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DF253B03EE for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 19:53:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22742-02 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 19:53:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail-ihug.icp-qv1-irony3.iinet.net.au (ihug-mail.icp-qv1-irony3.iinet.net.au [203.59.1.197]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 846933B03C3 for ; Fri, 30 Jun 2006 19:53:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 203-206-69-98.dyn.iinet.net.au (HELO [192.168.1.100]) ([203.206.69.98]) by mail-ihug.icp-qv1-irony3.iinet.net.au with ESMTP; 01 Jul 2006 07:53:24 +0800 X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-IronPort-AV: i="4.06,198,1149436800"; d="scan'208"; a="846339191:sNHT13226404" Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2006 09:53:27 +1000 (EST) From: Jan and Bertil Smark Nilsson X-X-Sender: bertil@localhost.localdomain To: Thomas Ward Subject: Re: Gnome and Ubuntu 6.06? In-Reply-To: <44A516DF.9080107@earthlink.net> Message-ID: References: <44A4E251.8000207@earthlink.net> <20060630092930.GA9048@jdc> <44A516DF.9080107@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.323 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.276, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.323 X-Spam-Level: Cc: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: GNOME accessibility development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 23:53:32 -0000 Thomas, I've a feeling that you've downloaded the wrong ISO. For what you want to do, You'll need the alternate install image from Ubuntu. There, you'll also find an installation manual. I suggest you download ubuntu-6.06-alternate-i386.iso if you have an Intel processor. Good luck! Bertil Smark Nilsson On Fri, 30 Jun 2006, Thomas Ward wrote: > Hi, Jason. > Thanks for the information. I just read through the Debian installation > manual, and while it seams strait forward I don't think it reflects > what I am seeing as far as Ubuntu 6.06 desktop version. Now, the manual > did mention using a preconfiguration script which would allow one to do > an autoinstall of Debian. I wonder if the same is true for Ubuntu, and > how much different is the preconfiguration script etc from Debian in > Ubuntu. As I am blind and don't have much help around an > autoinstallation or a terminal install is esentual for me getting this > thing on my system. So I will be doing this the hard way. Wish more > distributions were like Fedora and allowed for autoinstalls, telnet > installs, and terminal installs. > My hope and desire is to run say an autoinstall have it get it on, > reboot in to gnome, and fire up gnopernicus after login. Is that a > reasonable expectation for Ubuntu or am I barking up the wrong tree. I > can do this with Fedora but can't do this with most other distributions, > but I am hoping Ubuntu will be able to do this as well. > > > > > Jason White wrote: >> Ubuntu is based on the Debian GNU/Linux distribution, and reputedly uses an >> installer based on Debian's. Thus you may find the Debian installation guide >> helpful for the basic operating system installation process. >> http://www.debian.org/ (look under "documentation"). >> >> I am sure Ubuntu users subscribed to this list will suggest how you can most >> easily set it up to run Gnopernicus, Orca or whatever you need. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list >> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list > gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list >