From behdad at cs.toronto.edu Thu Jun 15 17:38:06 2006 From: behdad at cs.toronto.edu (Behdad Esfahbod) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 17:38:06 -0400 Subject: Women's Summer Outreach Program 2006 Message-ID: <1150407487.29623.12.camel@home> GNOME to Sponsor Female Developers in a Summer Outreach Program BOSTON, Mass - June 13, 2006 - The GNOME Foundation is offering USD$9000 to female students in order to promote the participation of women in GNOME-related development. The money originates from GNOME's participation in the Google "Summer of Code" program (code.google.com/soc/), for which GNOME developers will mentor 20 students working throughout the northern summer on GNOME-related projects. This year GNOME received 181 applications to Google's program, yet none were from women. The GNOME Foundation has therefore chosen to reinvest Google's contribution into a new program designed to increase the participation of women in GNOME. The program has no official relationship with Google. "Free software prides itself on being open to anyone with a good idea, yet less than 2% of free software developers are female. We, as a community, need to be actively working to change this statistic, and programs like this one are a much needed step in the right direction." said Hanna Wallach, a GNOME developer who is involved in several projects that encourage women to participate in free software development. The Women's Summer Outreach Program is currently accepting applications from female students. Accepted students will receive a stipend of USD $3000 over a two month period. A pool of project ideas is provided at www.gnome.org/projects/wsop/, though original proposals are also encouraged. Projects may either be related to GNOME directly, or indirectly via projects such as Gstreamer and Abiword. Each student will be assigned a mentor to provide guidance throughout the program. Vincent Untz, member of the GNOME Foundation board and coordinator of the GNOME team for Google's "Summer of Code" program, explained: "Many women have the skills required to contribute to Free Software projects like GNOME, but may not see an opportunity to start working with us. By initiating this program, not only do we want to highlight the issue, but we also hope that this opportunity will help more women to get involved in the long term." Applications should be submitted using the form at www.gnome.org/projects/wsop/. More information about the application process may be found at the same location. From mark at galassi.org Sun Jun 11 01:18:04 2006 From: mark at galassi.org (Mark Galassi) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:18:04 -0600 Subject: Required: Administrator for the Foundation In-Reply-To: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> (Federico Mena Quintero's message of "Fri, 09 Jun 2006 09:35:42 -0500") References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Message-ID: <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Federico> 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. I hope that it will be a firm requirement that only free s/w be used to run the Foundation's administration. I know you are only talking about literacy, not what tools will be used, but I think this is a good moment to state that if we start hiring non-free-sw-hackers to do this kind of work, we should insist that they use free tools. I still remember my sadness when I worked for Cygnus and saw that the non-developers did not use free s/w across the board. From rms at gnu.org Sat Jun 17 15:55:17 2006 From: rms at gnu.org (Richard Stallman) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:55:17 -0400 Subject: Required: Administrator for the Foundation In-Reply-To: <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> (message from Mark Galassi on Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:18:04 -0600) References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Message-ID: Federico> 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. Unless you're looking for kernel hackers, please make that "GNU/Linux literate". You probably want people who know how to edit with Emacs, write code to compile with GCC, debug with GDB, and call functions in GLIBC and GTK+. From alan at lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk Sat Jun 17 18:20:08 2006 From: alan at lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (Alan Cox) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:20:08 +0100 Subject: Required: Administrator for the Foundation In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Message-ID: <1150582808.10649.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Ar Sad, 2006-06-17 am 15:55 -0400, ysgrifennodd Richard Stallman: > Unless you're looking for kernel hackers, > please make that "GNU/Linux literate". Linux is a trademark in the USA. The use of GNU/Linux without indicating the trademark is inappropriately confusing the registered mark. And last time I checked GNOME was not a GNU project. Alan From jrb at redhat.com Sat Jun 17 17:09:57 2006 From: jrb at redhat.com (Jonathan Blandford) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 17:09:57 -0400 Subject: Required: Administrator for the Foundation In-Reply-To: <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Message-ID: <1150578597.2841.94.camel@peach> On Sat, 2006-06-10 at 23:18 -0600, Mark Galassi wrote: > Federico> 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. > > I hope that it will be a firm requirement that only free s/w be used > to run the Foundation's administration. > > I know you are only talking about literacy, not what tools will be > used, but I think this is a good moment to state that if we start > hiring non-free-sw-hackers to do this kind of work, we should insist > that they use free tools. > > I still remember my sadness when I worked for Cygnus and saw that the > non-developers did not use free s/w across the board. Right now, we use free tools to run almost all the foundation's books. We use gnucash, abiword, glabels[1] and gnucash for the bookkeeping. The GNOME tools are more than adequate to handle the Foundation's needs. We do have a vmware instance to run Internet Explorer just for online banking. No one on the board is happy with this situation, and we're planning on switching banks over this issue. Thanks, -Jonathan [1] which is a really nice and underpromoted program. Many kudos to the authors for doing such a slick job on this application. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/attachments/20060617/7ee0e1a6/attachment.bin From qgil at desdeamericaconamor.org Sat Jun 17 18:09:23 2006 From: qgil at desdeamericaconamor.org (Quim Gil) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 00:09:23 +0200 Subject: Required: Administrator for the Foundation In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Message-ID: <1150582163.5117.119.camel@localhost> El ds 17 de 06 del 2006 a les 15:55 -0400, en/na Richard Stallman va escriure: > Federico> 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. > > Unless you're looking for kernel hackers, > please make that "GNU/Linux literate". In fact, in this case it would be most accurate to say "Preferably free software literate", since the skills we require from this administrator are focused on the usage of office/desktop applications. Maybe we should have simply asked for someone "preferably GNOME user". :) > You probably want people who know how to edit with Emacs, > write code to compile with GCC, debug with GDB, and call > functions in GLIBC and GTK+. Well, not at all. We are looking for an administrator (accounting, bookkeeping and so on) and not for a system administrator or a developer. Think more on the basic Internet tools, word processors, spreadsheets and accounting applications. About making this preference for free software literacy a requirement, I agree the desirable scenario would be to have an accountant hired by the GNOME Foundation and working with GNOME. But we need an accountant, urgently. Finding candidates is not easy, and the priority is to find the best accountant available. If this person doesn't know perfectly how to use the free tools available s/he can learn. Very different of hiring a great free software user/developer with just regular administrative skills. Help us finding a great administrator with the free software skills needed, and problem solved. :) PS: Richard, looking forward to seeing you next week in Barcelona. -- Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment Url : http://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/attachments/20060618/f1d98b1c/attachment.bin From csaavedr at wh8.tu-dresden.de Sat Jun 17 17:08:19 2006 From: csaavedr at wh8.tu-dresden.de (Claudio Saavedra) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:08:19 +0200 Subject: Required: Administrator for the Foundation In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Message-ID: <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> On Sat, 2006-06-17 at 15:55 -0400, Richard Stallman wrote: > Federico> 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. > > Unless you're looking for kernel hackers, > please make that "GNU/Linux literate". > You probably want people who know how to edit with Emacs, > write code to compile with GCC, debug with GDB, and call > functions in GLIBC and GTK+. Even when you are right regarding the probably-irrelevant-in-context GNU/Linux issue, it worths noting that the Foundation is looking for an administrator, not a hacker. That is clearly stated in Federico's e-mail title and body. Claudio -- Claudio Saavedra From ross at golder.org Sun Jun 18 01:30:54 2006 From: ross at golder.org (Ross Golder) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:30:54 +0700 Subject: Required: Administrator for the Foundation In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Message-ID: <1150608655.10699.15.camel@red> On Sat, 2006-06-17 at 15:55 -0400, Richard Stallman wrote: > You probably want people who know how to edit with Emacs, > write code to compile with GCC, debug with GDB, and call > functions in GLIBC and GTK+. I don't think that's exactly what the board had in mind when said they were after an 'administrator'. I think the requirement was to be computer literate in the sense of being able to use 'normal' user-based applications, such as word processors and spreadsheets, to manage the day-to-day running of the foundation. If they're handy with Emacs, GCC and the rest, they'd probably be wasted on doing the admin job described ;) -- Ross From rms at gnu.org Sun Jun 18 12:26:45 2006 From: rms at gnu.org (Richard Stallman) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:26:45 -0400 Subject: Required: Administrator for the Foundation In-Reply-To: <1150582808.10649.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> (message from Alan Cox on Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:20:08 +0100) References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150582808.10649.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Linux is a trademark in the USA. The use of GNU/Linux without indicating the trademark is inappropriately confusing the registered mark. I could ask lawyers whether you are right, but I think there is no need to ask them unless someone makes a legal complaint. The FSF has never received one. The system as used today is basically GNU, but Linux is also an important component. We call it "GNU/Linux" partly so as to give the developers of Linux a share of the credit for the combination. If the developers of Linux prefer not to receive this share of the credit, they need only say so publicly; then if we stop adding "/Linux", people will understand that in doing so we are responding to their wishes. And last time I checked GNOME was not a GNU project. GNOME is part of the GNU project, but the two questions are independent. From rms at gnu.org Sun Jun 18 12:26:46 2006 From: rms at gnu.org (Richard Stallman) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:26:46 -0400 Subject: Required: Administrator for the Foundation In-Reply-To: <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> (message from Claudio Saavedra on Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:08:19 +0200) References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> Message-ID: Even when you are right regarding the probably-irrelevant-in-context GNU/Linux issue, it worths noting that the Foundation is looking for an administrator, not a hacker. That is clearly stated in Federico's e-mail title and body. You're right; I had forgotten that. (I was looking at Mark's message which quoted those lines, not at Federico's message.) I'm sorry for causing some confusion. I ought to have said, Since you're not looking for kernel hackers, please make that "GNU/Linux literate". You probably want someone who knows how to edit with Emacs, do accounting with GNUcash and Gnumeric, operate GNOME, etc. (Quim Gil pointed out that it may be necessary to hire someone who isn't GNU/Linux literate, just to get someone soon. I'm not trying to dispute that question.) From dneary at free.fr Sun Jun 18 14:46:51 2006 From: dneary at free.fr (David Neary) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:46:51 +0200 Subject: Required: Administrator for the Foundation In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> Message-ID: <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> Richard Stallman wrote: > Since you're not looking for kernel hackers, > please make that "GNU/Linux literate". > You probably want someone who knows how to edit with Emacs, > do accounting with GNUcash and Gnumeric, operate GNOME, etc. > > (Quim Gil pointed out that it may be necessary to hire someone > who isn't GNU/Linux literate, just to get someone soon. > I'm not trying to dispute that question.) In reality, we will likely hire someone who is already competent in the use of free software - but I agree with Quim that this should not be a requirement (obviously (at least to me), *using* free software will be part of the job, where possible). Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary bolsh at gimp.org Lyon, France From qgil at desdeamericaconamor.org Sun Jun 18 23:43:17 2006 From: qgil at desdeamericaconamor.org (Quim Gil) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 05:43:17 +0200 Subject: Required: Administrator for the Foundation In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> Message-ID: <1150688597.5156.27.camel@localhost> El dg 18 de 06 del 2006 a les 12:26 -0400, en/na Richard Stallman va escriure: > (Quim Gil pointed out that it may be necessary to hire someone > who isn't GNU/Linux literate, just to get someone soon. Just to avoid confusion, I didn't meant to hire someone who isn't free software literate to use non-free software tools as a GNOME administrator, but come and learn the usage of the free tools the Foundation is already using (detailed by Jonathan). A good administrator knowing the concepts and knowing to use non-free tools is very likely to learn the usage of the free tools easily. That's all. As Dave has pointed out, we have already at least one candidate able to use the current free tools. -- Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment Url : http://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/attachments/20060619/705692a1/attachment.bin From rms at gnu.org Mon Jun 19 16:08:43 2006 From: rms at gnu.org (Richard Stallman) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 16:08:43 -0400 Subject: Required: Administrator for the Foundation In-Reply-To: <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> (message from David Neary on Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:46:51 +0200) References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> Message-ID: In reality, we will likely hire someone who is already competent in the use of free software - but I agree with Quim that this should not be a requirement (obviously (at least to me), *using* free software will be part of the job, where possible). I think the Foundation should absolutely insist on using only free software. That way it will lead by example. From jdub at perkypants.org Mon Jun 19 22:28:04 2006 From: jdub at perkypants.org (Jeff Waugh) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 04:28:04 +0200 Subject: Required: Administrator for the Foundation In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> Message-ID: <20060620022804.GB5152@waugh.id.au> > In reality, we will likely hire someone who is already competent in the > use of free software - but I agree with Quim that this should not be a > requirement (obviously (at least to me), *using* free software will be > part of the job, where possible). > > I think the Foundation should absolutely insist on using only free > software. That way it will lead by example. That is not under question. The suggestion Quim made is that having *prior experience* in the use of Free Software need not be necessary - however, the successful applicant will *absolutely* USE Free Software in their role, no questions asked. - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltr?, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ "The GPL is good. Use it. Don't be silly." - Michael Meeks From dneary at free.fr Tue Jun 20 02:43:43 2006 From: dneary at free.fr (Dave Neary) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:43:43 +0200 Subject: Required: Administrator for the Foundation In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> Message-ID: <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> Hi, Richard Stallman wrote: > In reality, we will likely hire someone who is already competent in the > use of free software - but I agree with Quim that this should not be a > requirement (obviously (at least to me), *using* free software will be > part of the job, where possible). > > I think the Foundation should absolutely insist on using only free > software. That way it will lead by example. As Jonathan pointed out, our bank has a website which does some rather evil platform detection, and refuses to run on anything other than IE. So we are obliged to have a Windows instance installed, or we can not use this bank's online services. We have made our issue known, and are investigating changing banks. Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh at gimp.org From baris at teamforce.name.tr Tue Jun 20 04:43:47 2006 From: baris at teamforce.name.tr (Baris Cicek) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 11:43:47 +0300 Subject: Required: Administrator for the Foundation In-Reply-To: <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> Message-ID: <1150793027.2669.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> That might be a little technical and maybe out of this discussion boundaries but, why instead of making IE run over wine, you use more than necessary non-free software? (ie. Windows, VMWARE). I bet are already paid, but I use wine for IE related stuff, and it "just works". Besides, I find Linux (or GNU/Linux) literate expression a little problematic, because generally people use Computer Literate, and by default thinking it as Windows computer. To overcome this issue, best thing to do might be to call it as Computer Literate, and list the applications that applicant should know like OpenOffice.org and Firefox, gnuCash and even Linux. Once you know this applications, I doubt Linux Desktop learning curve would be steep for any applicant. This way it might solve the problem for those who would not apply for job since they don't know Linux, as people would see themselves as computer literate. On Tue, 2006-06-20 at 08:43 +0200, Dave Neary wrote: > Hi, > > Richard Stallman wrote: > > In reality, we will likely hire someone who is already competent in the > > use of free software - but I agree with Quim that this should not be a > > requirement (obviously (at least to me), *using* free software will be > > part of the job, where possible). > > > > I think the Foundation should absolutely insist on using only free > > software. That way it will lead by example. > > As Jonathan pointed out, our bank has a website which does some rather > evil platform detection, and refuses to run on anything other than IE. > So we are obliged to have a Windows instance installed, or we can not > use this bank's online services. We have made our issue known, and are > investigating changing banks. > > Cheers, > Dave. > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/attachments/20060620/4b8c2b3f/attachment.bin From rms at gnu.org Tue Jun 20 13:56:16 2006 From: rms at gnu.org (Richard Stallman) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:56:16 -0400 Subject: Required: Administrator for the Foundation In-Reply-To: <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> (message from Dave Neary on Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:43:43 +0200) References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> Message-ID: As Jonathan pointed out, our bank has a website which does some rather evil platform detection, and refuses to run on anything other than IE. This is worse than I realized. The Foundation is not only using user-subjugating software, it is using a bank that pressures its customers to do so. That makes two reasons to stop. Running Internet Explorer on GNU/Linux using Wine, which someone suggested, is not a real solution because IE itself is proprietary software. That approach avoids Windows, but doesn't avoid IE. Until you find another bank, you could stop dealing with the bank on line, and do business with it the old-fashioned way, with paper, phone calls, and/or visits to the bank office. It may be inconvenient, but it freedom is worth a small sacrifice. However, another approach is worth thinking about. What is the obstacle to programming a free browser so that it pretends to be IE? That would be the really desirable solution. What bank is it? Maybe the FSF and the GNOME Foundation can organize a pressure campaign for the bank to change its policies. From jrb at redhat.com Tue Jun 20 14:14:43 2006 From: jrb at redhat.com (Jonathan Blandford) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:43 -0400 Subject: Required: Administrator for the Foundation In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> Message-ID: <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> *shrug* Online banking is a new feature for this bank. We told them we were planning on switching banks if they didn't support Firefox or other browsers, and they said that they would look into it. I wouldn't expect them to support it overnight, and given the expense of switching banks, I wouldn't want to switch immediately. I don't know what a 'reasonable time' is for this, but we are probably just approaching it. Additionally, if you recall, the original purpose of this thread was to help find an administrator for the GNOME Foundation. I would expect the new admin to switch banks if we can't use Firefox or epiphany, but we're not exactly operating on all cylinders right now. Thanks, -Jonathan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/attachments/20060620/27dbd703/attachment.bin From rms at gnu.org Tue Jun 20 19:32:53 2006 From: rms at gnu.org (Richard Stallman) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:32:53 -0400 Subject: Required: Administrator for the Foundation In-Reply-To: <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> (message from Jonathan Blandford on Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:43 -0400) References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Online banking is a new feature for this bank. We told them we were planning on switching banks if they didn't support Firefox or other browsers, and they said that they would look into it. I wouldn't expect them to support it overnight, It would be counterproductive to hurry them to decide; and if they decide to switch, they need time to do the work. However, that doesn't mean the GNOME Foundation needs to use non-free software. Since on-line banking is a new feature for them, you can do without it while waiting. Accepting inconveniences rather than using non-free software is a great way to show by example that freedom is important. From ross at golder.org Tue Jun 20 21:28:24 2006 From: ross at golder.org (Ross Golder) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:28:24 +0700 Subject: Required: Administrator for the Foundation In-Reply-To: <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1150853304.5559.28.camel@red> On Tue, 2006-06-20 at 14:14 -0400, Jonathan Blandford wrote: > *shrug* > > Online banking is a new feature for this bank. We told them we were > planning on switching banks if they didn't support Firefox or other > browsers, and they said that they would look into it. I wouldn't expect > them to support it overnight, and given the expense of switching banks, > I wouldn't want to switch immediately. It shouldn't be hard to find a bank that does support our needs, open an account with them, transfer the money from the old account, close the old account, update some docs/notes. I can't see it costing more than a few hours and maybe a few dollars. A reasonably motivated administrator should have that done in a day or two, I'd have thought, then they won't have to sit around waiting for our bank to fix their systems. I'm curious as to why the account was opened with the current bank in the first place, without a basic check that their on-line facilities were suitable. It seems a bit odd. I'm not looking to assign blame to anyone, just to make sure it's a mistake learned from and something similar won't happen again at the foundation's cost. I'm also curious about who the current bank is :) > Additionally, if you recall, the original purpose of this thread was to > help find an administrator for the GNOME Foundation. I would expect the > new admin to switch banks if we can't use Firefox or epiphany, but we're > not exactly operating on all cylinders right now. > A good first job for them then. Also, would it be possible for them to write a brief monthly report to the foundation-list about their month's activities and expenses etc. It might help make things a little more transparent/accountable. -- Ross From the prior art department: compare with RFC 2026. I think the time for review is too short. It might be OK for people who are working full time on Gnome, but it won't be enough for people who have another job. It's possible that somebody who isn't directly involved in Gnome would want to review the proposal (because somebody who is involved asked him/her to, for example), but it might be impossible on such schedule. Furteher, if the RFP author thinks the reviewing period should be longer, then it should be longer. So I propose something like "the reviewing period will be determined by the RFP owner, but it shuld not be shorter than two weeks." That's for "fast-track approval, if no controversy" section. Other time constraints should also be at least two weeks. I don't see why several persons couldn't author an RFP. I don't know if that should be explicitely written. An objection to "A small group of relevant maintainers finalizes the RFP." It should be "A small group of interested parties." One doesn't have to be Gnome module maintainer in order to posess usefull technical knowledge about the problem in question. I don't particularly like the voting stuff. The general tone implies that conflicts are expected and that consensus will be an exception. But if you want to go with rules like that, then there should be no gray areas. For example, the "List of responsible maintainers" section ends with: "The board will resolve all disputes regarding the list of responsible maintainers." How is the board going to do that? On what schedule? The results of board decision will obviously be public. But is the board required to write a public explanation? And why voting in the first place? Shouldn't the board be able to reach a consensus on this issue? > Two example topics we might use for a test run of the procedure are > this -config issue, and the sound server/API issue. Hm. How about testing it on the "GNOME Enhancement Procedure" proposal itself? -- .-. .-. Are you crying? No, I'm bleeding. (_ \ / _) | dave@arsdigita.com | From gnome-foundation-list@m.gmane.org Thu Jun 1 05:42:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08DFB3B0CE0 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 05:42:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23565-02 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 05:42:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 821AE3B0D78 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 05:20:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from root by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1FljLW-0003fl-Ej for foundation-list@gnome.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:20:02 +0200 Received: from 213.91.219.2 ([213.91.219.2]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:20:02 +0200 Received: from yavor by 213.91.219.2 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:20:02 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: foundation-list@gnome.org From: Yavor Doganov Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:58:47 +0300 Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440605300709u669c5da2sa352f1f5fedf2b06@mail.gmail.com> <14439.194.138.18.131.1149000460.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060530151633.GB28961@bridgewayconsulting.com.au> <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> <177e83dd0605301003h77a01816hed9a3a1afb849709@mail.gmail.com> <447E0013.9030307@gnome.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.91.219.2 User-Agent: Pan/0.14.2.91 (As She Crawled Across the Table (Debian GNU/Linux)) X-What_are_we_fighting_for: NO SOFTWARE PATENTS! NO BANANA REPUBLIC! Sender: news X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.542 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.441, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=1.5, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.542 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 09:42:40 -0000 On Wed, 31 May 2006 16:44:03 -0400, Tristan Van Berkom wrote: > GNOME is Free Software and part of the GNU project [...] > If the above statement is indeed true, I wonder where any misrepresentations > are, if they can be rectified and what can be done in general to improve > the overall interpretation of what the GNOME project is. If you read Planet GNOME and some of the mailing lists, you'll notice that many developers use the term "Open Source" and call the operating system "Linux", instead of GNU or GNU/Linux. Some of them were even excited when a popular non-free software was relicensed recently, allowing easier installation by the users, but still remaining non-free. If the core developers and project participants do not value and stand firm behind the ideals of the GNU Project and the Free Software Movement, you cannot expect that these ideals will touch the hearts of other people, particularly the "minority" groups in question. -- JID: doganov@jabber.minus273.org From jdub@waugh.id.au Thu Jun 1 06:25:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A33F3B0141 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:25:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26622-08 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:25:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF6F73B008B for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:25:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (unknown [203.217.18.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC7463CB6A for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 20:24:59 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 966C440B4; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 20:01:27 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 20:01:27 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060601100126.GA5214@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440605300709u669c5da2sa352f1f5fedf2b06@mail.gmail.com> <14439.194.138.18.131.1149000460.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060530151633.GB28961@bridgewayconsulting.com.au> <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> <177e83dd0605301003h77a01816hed9a3a1afb849709@mail.gmail.com> <447E0013.9030307@gnome.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 Reply-By: Sun Jun 4 19:54:21 EST 2006 X-Uptime: 19:54:21 up 51 min, 6 users, load average: 0.27, 0.40, 0.40 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 10:25:03 -0000 > If you read Planet GNOME and some of the mailing lists, you'll notice that > many developers use the term "Open Source" and call the operating system > "Linux", instead of GNU or GNU/Linux. Some of them were even excited when > a popular non-free software was relicensed recently, allowing easier > installation by the users, but still remaining non-free. > > If the core developers and project participants do not value and stand > firm behind the ideals of the GNU Project and the Free Software Movement, > you cannot expect that these ideals will touch the hearts of other people, > particularly the "minority" groups in question. Oh man, come on, this is silly behaviour. GNOME developers are *passionate* about Free Software, fiercely so. We're here to make sure that Free Software gets into the hands of normal users, not just geeks. However, we *do not* have our minds held hostage by dogma, and dogma doesn't drive freedom for *anyone*. We're all consenting adults, we can make our own decisions about what's good and what's not - but don't think for a minute that GNOME, as an organisation and social group is not pursuing a fierce Free Software agenda. - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2007: Sydney, Australia http://lca2007.linux.org.au/ "(Hint: IRC clients don't usually do DVD and VCD playback)." - Bastien Nocera From anne@oestergaard.nu Thu Jun 1 07:24:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D0113B00EE for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 07:24:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30376-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 07:23:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero0.cybercity.dk (cicero0.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.52]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D50F63B0119 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 07:23:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero0.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68F86678C70 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 13:23:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 164FB74FA04 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 13:23:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 22398 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2006 11:23:54 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 1 Jun 2006 11:23:54 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Bill Haneman In-Reply-To: <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149065540.5127.117.camel@localhost> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:23:54 +0200 Message-Id: <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.533 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.066, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.533 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:24:00 -0000 ons, 31 05 2006 kl. 20:38 +0100, skrev Bill Haneman: > On Wed, 2006-05-31 at 19:25, Tristan Van Berkom wrote: > > > Nobody will be driven away by that, people might be driven away by > > us stating that "you now are part of a community with a code of conduct". Actually if persons are driven away by not being able to accept rules of good conduct or The GNOME Ethics as we might prefer to call them then so be it. IMHO. > I don't agree. Every community has a code of conduct, implied or > explicit, IMO. Anyhow, there's no real enforcement mechanism, so I > don't see this as a realistic concern. > > ANY change or statement with a "policy" feel carries the risk of > alienating *somebody*, but that doesn't mean that embracing anarchy is > better. I have personally had the feeling over the past couple of years that the general atmosphere in the GNOME community has hardened. I joined the community in 2001 when I meet you all at GUADEC in Copenhagen. My reason for doing so was that it was the kindest most helpful group of people (although mostly white western males) that I had met in FLOSS. I think that being inventive is not equal to being anarchistic. Anarchistic is not a virtue in my book. Besides I find that it is not clever not to be able to accept the normal way of defining a well functioning democracy for all. Social rules and ethics will definitely be a competition parameter also for peoples personal choice of software now and in the future. > As an aside, I think the gender issue is important, and probably does > reflect some "cultural" issues within our community (GNOME and the FOSS > community in general). Members of a community rarely understand the > aspects of their culture that cause others to be alienated or > disinterested, even if they understand why they themselves feel included > and motivated. I fully agree with Bill and others here and I think we have to establish a gender action plan within GNOME, Ubuntu etc. We have got the opportunity to start this good trend! I do not say this to start a new long debat in this tread. But it has become obvious that the 1% participation of women in FLOSS is embarrassing and we need to have a look at why this is the case and make some cultural changes. I know that the Computer Science Department at the University of Gothenburg in Sweden has a gender action plan: http://www.informatik.gu.se/dokument/dokument.xsp?group=jamstalldhet&menu=org I think that many other universities and even GNOME and Ubuntu could get a lot of inspiration here. (Provided it gets translated from Swedish into a language you understand.) One of the purposes is to get more women in to research and teaching. Changing the mono culture is a vital goal. But to summon up what has happened in this debate: Most of the persons who has expressed themselves in this tread are positive to Murrays suggestion. So I think we should go for it. We might call it GNOME Ethics if "rules" has a disturbing ring to it. Anne From murrayc@murrayc.com Thu Jun 1 08:03:32 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1112C3B0D51 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:03:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00538-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:03:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com (webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com [66.33.201.159]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3998D3B0D3C for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:02:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.murrayc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D998A2CDA7; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 04:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 194.138.18.131 (proxying for unknown) (SquirrelMail authenticated user murrayc@murrayc.com) by webmail.murrayc.com with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 13:56:01 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> In-Reply-To: <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149065540.5127.117.camel@localhost> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 13:56:01 +0200 (CEST) From: "Murray Cumming" To: Anne =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.556 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.043, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.556 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 12:03:32 -0000 Anne wrote: [snip] > I do not say this to start a new long debat in this tread. But it has > become obvious that the 1% participation of women in FLOSS is > embarrassing and we need to have a look at why this is the case and make > some cultural changes. > > I know that the Computer Science Department at the University of > Gothenburg in Sweden has a gender action plan: > http://www.informatik.gu.se/dokument/dokument.xsp?group=jamstalldhet&menu=org > > I think that many other universities and even GNOME and Ubuntu could get > a lot of inspiration here. (Provided it gets translated from Swedish > into a language you understand.) [snip] Realistically, this plans needs to be written by you. Others will help you with it, but you need to create it and drive it. As a start, I think we have some definite things to try, based on the Flosspolls report: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-women-list/2006-May/msg00001.html At the least, it would be great to read the policies or plans that other science/technical organisations have created, particularly if they have proven successful already. For instance, a list of web addresses, or summaries. In English. You seem like the most well-informed person to do this. Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From luis.villa@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 08:13:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15D1F3B0132 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:13:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01060-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:13:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.200]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 043DA3B012D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:13:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so231597wxd for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 05:13:23 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=M7bRKyNesxOOt+gZaYV1MUy25dv6JMJkayJ3gFzHzPJvfGr3qCJftkHHnjf3gi9gUXLf0cU44gY2K3koUsPKQanX3t6HgTiUZez4vJLgj1VLW5Fh47YL+5aBb+rn/f63MCOnH2lfFwkirZJpcROmSo+ATikyCcARXoGuw4jXOAk= Received: by 10.70.69.8 with SMTP id r8mr613225wxa; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 05:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.2 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 05:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:13:23 -0400 From: "Luis Villa" To: "Murray Cumming" In-Reply-To: <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 12:13:27 -0000 On 6/1/06, Murray Cumming wrote: > Anne wrote: > [snip] > > I do not say this to start a new long debat in this tread. But it has > > become obvious that the 1% participation of women in FLOSS is > > embarrassing and we need to have a look at why this is the case and make > > some cultural changes. > > > > I know that the Computer Science Department at the University of > > Gothenburg in Sweden has a gender action plan: > > http://www.informatik.gu.se/dokument/dokument.xsp?group=jamstalldhet&menu=org > > > > I think that many other universities and even GNOME and Ubuntu could get > > a lot of inspiration here. (Provided it gets translated from Swedish > > into a language you understand.) > [snip] > > Realistically, this plans needs to be written by you. Others will help you > with it, but you need to create it and drive it. Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by someone with such experience. Luis From murrayc@murrayc.com Thu Jun 1 08:39:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4C7A3B0125 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:39:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02694-03 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:39:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com (webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com [66.33.201.159]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D48423B00FF for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:39:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.murrayc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1850D2D23D; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 05:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 194.138.18.131 (proxying for unknown) (SquirrelMail authenticated user murrayc@murrayc.com) by webmail.murrayc.com with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:33:29 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:33:29 +0200 (CEST) From: "Murray Cumming" To: "Luis Villa" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.557 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.042, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.557 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , Murray Cumming , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 12:39:50 -0000 > On 6/1/06, Murray Cumming wrote: >> Anne wrote: >> [snip] >> > I do not say this to start a new long debat in this tread. But it has >> > become obvious that the 1% participation of women in FLOSS is >> > embarrassing and we need to have a look at why this is the case and >> make >> > some cultural changes. >> > >> > I know that the Computer Science Department at the University of >> > Gothenburg in Sweden has a gender action plan: >> > http://www.informatik.gu.se/dokument/dokument.xsp?group=jamstalldhet&menu=org >> > >> > I think that many other universities and even GNOME and Ubuntu could >> get >> > a lot of inspiration here. (Provided it gets translated from Swedish >> > into a language you understand.) >> [snip] >> >> Realistically, this plans needs to be written by you. Others will help >> you >> with it, but you need to create it and drive it. > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > someone with such experience. Hmm, how about people working together? It just seems that the person who most most obviously wants this should be the person trying to make it happen. Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Thu Jun 1 08:50:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E761A3B00AB for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:50:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03032-07 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:50:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E8C033B0090 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:50:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from turing.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.16] helo=turing.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 1 Jun 2006 13:50:48 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 13:50:48 +0100 (IST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440605300709u669c5da2sa352f1f5fedf2b06@mail.gmail.com> <14439.194.138.18.131.1149000460.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060530151633.GB28961@bridgewayconsulting.com.au> <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> <177e83dd0605301003h77a01816hed9a3a1afb849709@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 12:50:52 -0000 On Wed, 31 May 2006, Richard Stallman wrote: > Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 15:13:33 -0400 > From: Richard Stallman > To: zuh@iki.fi > Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org > Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct > > So I would definitely agree that given an idea of contributing (code), > women will easily ask who will pay for it where men might not. Maybe > they consider open source more as "working" than as a hobby or a way > social networking or even as a way to educate oneself. > > Perhaps this is a consequence of presenting GNOME as an "open source" > activity. That term excludes the idealism of free software, and > invites people to look at the matter in purely practical terms -- > which is what these women then do. > > Perhaps they would understand better why it's worth spending time > unpaid on our campaign if you tell them that this is the Free Software > Movement, and that the goal of our campaign is freedom for us and for > everyone. If greater clarity and emphasis on freedom is the goal why not say _Freedom Software_ and avoid the abiguity which in part lead other to come up with different terminology? -- Alan From dneary@free.fr Thu Jun 1 09:03:11 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 571E73B01BA for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:03:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04032-05 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:03:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp12.wanadoo.fr (smtp12.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.20]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD9103B01B4 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:03:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf1202.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 05B421C000A2; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:03:06 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060601130307236.05B421C000A2@mwinf1202.orange.fr Message-ID: <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:03:04 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (Windows/20060308) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Luis Villa References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:03:11 -0000 Hi, Luis Villa wrote: > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > someone with such experience. That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a developer from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women involved in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who's better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From luis.villa@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 09:05:29 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB9D83B0213 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:05:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04316-06 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:05:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.198]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 631D63B01F3 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:05:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so240207wxd for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:05:26 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=BYK8lFiLJO2Ne9nZnBwCpaSMHLj/eF+Yve99+fxle95gejqE1Awkf+irqEgrFDLJVaJXbiziS8zWvNXLmkJGfP4p3kJQf/tOBDd7r6d+KgMAdM+DqPT7lTQAgS1L4cgq4N9+8G0/kBVIC9CUKcncJ4u+u6lMyAlrSBwHZV3EH34= Received: by 10.70.6.1 with SMTP id 1mr693092wxf; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:05:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.2 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:05:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:05:26 -0400 From: "Luis Villa" To: "Dave Neary" In-Reply-To: <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:05:30 -0000 On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: > > Hi, > > Luis Villa wrote: > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > > someone with such experience. > > That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a developer > from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women involved > in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct > discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who's > better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? A female geek? Luis From jdub@waugh.id.au Thu Jun 1 09:08:05 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2BE63B0C0E for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:08:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04423-09 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:08:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1F8C3B0134 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:08:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (unknown [203.217.18.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7BA53CDC4 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 23:07:59 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0CBAD40B4; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 23:07:48 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 23:07:48 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060601130748.GE5203@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440605300709u669c5da2sa352f1f5fedf2b06@mail.gmail.com> <14439.194.138.18.131.1149000460.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060530151633.GB28961@bridgewayconsulting.com.au> <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> <177e83dd0605301003h77a01816hed9a3a1afb849709@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: Reply-By: Sun Jun 4 23:06:25 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 23:06:25 up 2:59, 5 users, load average: 3.75, 2.14, 1.64 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:08:05 -0000 > If greater clarity and emphasis on freedom is the goal why not say > _Freedom Software_ and avoid the abiguity which in part lead other to come > up with different terminology? This is not a discussion for this list - please take this off-list if you wish to pursue it. Thanks, - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ From baris@teamforce.name.tr Thu Jun 1 09:27:37 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DD163B016D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:27:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05899-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:27:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nerd.com.tr (nerd.com.tr [69.60.117.115]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC3303B0077 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:27:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nerd.com.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1406B784E6A; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:31:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nerd.com.tr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (nerd.com.tr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15072-01; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:30:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (unknown [81.213.157.51]) by nerd.com.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94F7C784E68; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:30:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Baris Cicek To: Luis Villa In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-nF1xqzLT528vovi3vaHu" Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 16:27:19 +0300 Message-Id: <1149168439.2507.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 (2.6.0-1) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at nerd.com.tr X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.227 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.372, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.227 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:27:37 -0000 --=-nF1xqzLT528vovi3vaHu Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Actually, it should be someone who is able to detect possible obstacles that put Asians or Women out of GNOME (or in general Free Software). I doubt that anyone have any emprical study about that. But is it harsh and rude behavior of developers or the community? Or technical limits? Or even communication problems? (ie. English knowledge or something).=20 First thing is to come up with a reasonable problems that new comers would come across. And later people should follow a pathway to get rid of these obstacles.=20 Actually Code of Conduct may only be successful for new comers if we detect those problems correctly.=20 For that reason, ideas of the fresh community members is more important. If you're experienced then either you did not have any problem or you might even forgot those problems you'd encountered in past. Though, you might still remember old days, but chances are low.=20 IMHO, Code Of Conduct (or GNOME Ethics) should be written for that very reason. Experienced members of the community might and would forget the problems for newcomers. Something should remind them. But still first thing to do is to detect obstacles first. Else, outcome of this work, won't get further than saying "Be nice to each other" with rhetoric.=20 On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 09:05 -0400, Luis Villa wrote: > On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > Luis Villa wrote: > > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > > > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > > > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > > > someone with such experience. > > > > That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a developer > > from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women involve= d > > in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct > > discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who'= s > > better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? >=20 > A female geek? >=20 > Luis > _______________________________________________ > foundation-list mailing list > foundation-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list --=-nF1xqzLT528vovi3vaHu Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEfus362fLHU++kcURAlt/AKDgbHg3XB0HAS5zZDe4MiJSIFoVsACfR8wZ oEU7oK/r87izEkFQB/pm6dU= =aEcr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-nF1xqzLT528vovi3vaHu-- From anne@oestergaard.nu Thu Jun 1 09:32:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A2083B0D3A for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:32:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06362-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:32:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero0.cybercity.dk (cicero0.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.52]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 928443B0C49 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:32:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero0.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 317E1679467 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:32:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id CDC4774FAF2 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:32:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 23827 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2006 13:32:44 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 1 Jun 2006 13:32:44 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Luis Villa In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:32:43 +0200 Message-Id: <1149168764.6894.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.533 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.066, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.533 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:32:56 -0000 tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 09:05 -0400, skrev Luis Villa: > On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > Luis Villa wrote: > > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > > > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > > > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > > > someone with such experience. > > > > That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a developer > > from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women involved > > in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct > > discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who's > > better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? > > A female geek? I would like to hear your definition of a geek, please. Anne From dneary@free.fr Thu Jun 1 09:39:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC0FF3B0D35 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:39:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06719-08 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:39:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.wanadoo.fr (smtp2.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.29]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E48C3B0C49 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:39:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf0203.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 638591C001F4; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:39:31 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060601133931407.638591C001F4@mwinf0203.orange.fr Message-ID: <447EEE11.4000500@free.fr> Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:39:29 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (Windows/20060308) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Anne_=D8stergaard?= References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> <1149168764.6894.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <1149168764.6894.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:39:35 -0000 Anne Østergaard wrote: > tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 09:05 -0400, skrev Luis Villa: >> On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: >>> Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who's >>> better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? >> A female geek? > > I would like to hear your definition of a geek, please. >From my point of view, it's someone who's passionate about software (or more generally, about computers). The GNOME project needs people who are passionate about the freedom of free software who aren't *necessarily* passionate about software, but even then, for tasks other than being a developer, a passion in free software is probably a prerequisite. Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From anne@oestergaard.nu Thu Jun 1 09:39:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 750413B0D40 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:39:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06806-04 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:39:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67D673B0D2E for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:39:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user5.cybercity.dk (user5.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.51]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15A5F2455B0 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:39:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user5.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 9D19C3A1BDE for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:39:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 23975 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2006 13:39:32 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 1 Jun 2006 13:39:32 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Baris Cicek In-Reply-To: <1149168439.2507.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> <1149168439.2507.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:39:31 +0200 Message-Id: <1149169171.6894.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.534 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.065, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.534 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Dave Neary , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:39:36 -0000 tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 16:27 +0300, skrev Baris Cicek: > Actually, it should be someone who is able to detect possible obstacles > that put Asians or Women out of GNOME (or in general Free Software). I > doubt that anyone have any emprical study about that. But is it harsh > and rude behavior of developers or the community? Or technical limits? > Or even communication problems? (ie. English knowledge or something). > > First thing is to come up with a reasonable problems that new comers > would come across. And later people should follow a pathway to get rid > of these obstacles. > > Actually Code of Conduct may only be successful for new comers if we > detect those problems correctly. > > For that reason, ideas of the fresh community members is more important. > If you're experienced then either you did not have any problem or you > might even forgot those problems you'd encountered in past. Though, you > might still remember old days, but chances are low. > > IMHO, Code Of Conduct (or GNOME Ethics) should be written for that very > reason. Experienced members of the community might and would forget the > problems for newcomers. Something should remind them. > > But still first thing to do is to detect obstacles first. Else, outcome > of this work, won't get further than saying "Be nice to each other" with > rhetoric. I agree. A question is when do you feel you belong to the GNOME community? When there is a critical mass that is just like you and when you feel comfortable that a larger group share your way of thinking and ways of communicating? Anne > > > On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 09:05 -0400, Luis Villa wrote: > > On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Luis Villa wrote: > > > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > > > > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > > > > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > > > > someone with such experience. > > > > > > That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a developer > > > from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women involved > > > in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct > > > discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who's > > > better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? > > > > A female geek? > > > > Luis > > _______________________________________________ > > foundation-list mailing list > > foundation-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list > _______________________________________________ > foundation-list mailing list > foundation-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list From luis.villa@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 09:43:23 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF5F03B0173 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:43:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07305-02 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:43:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.196]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55A5F3B016F for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:43:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so246552wxd for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:43:17 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=UPMgxGsuCGu6P9N+IaztKhzWZWnUDGjuB1eu40MxK1NuAYJkPdnf/o0M+7UTRbphbBCZHji5W4uRedT5Trtz+xk2RNZjiehC/nOopS/OtST53stjQnuc+7XXuh50Weobl+tQK3djpBRujGIbYjkUE2DLA14rWpAxVg7jLqLYQt4= Received: by 10.70.40.12 with SMTP id n12mr737638wxn; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.2 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2cb10c440606010643x1dfe5e48mbcf68a2fd0352fae@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:43:16 -0400 From: "Luis Villa" To: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Anne_=D8stergaard?=" In-Reply-To: <1149168764.6894.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> <1149168764.6894.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:43:23 -0000 On 6/1/06, Anne =D8stergaard wrote: > tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 09:05 -0400, skrev Luis Villa: > > On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Luis Villa wrote: > > > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > > > > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer= *- > > > > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > > > > someone with such experience. > > > > > > That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a develop= er > > > from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women invol= ved > > > in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct > > > discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so wh= o's > > > better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-gee= k? > > > > A female geek? > > I would like to hear your definition of a geek, please. For the purposes of this discussion, 'someone actively involved in the development of our software through the traditional means used by our community'. This need not be direct software development (as everyone knows I do very little of that) but it does mean involvement in creating the product that we ship, and it does mean at least some participation in the mainstream of the community- desktop-devel-list, #gnome-hackers, etc. Luis From luis.villa@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 09:44:24 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5D663B016F for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:44:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07262-08 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:44:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.204]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 506EE3B0C49 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:44:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so246728wxd for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:44:21 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=GpGdnRDgVSS/SWZsX5U/sj0RXmGEYdgzgsLRzSM+2rgcLIebl2EPo+MS4FanUY2lt0S3HLELDWKLXUSbRRWSN6qQyccniZtM40z1wcvwVutMlhGHZPV/Mzbh3m8X54uRlE259+XeTT7pIYL1LFWvkKL6SI6TjBXi5UKvO5I6d5s= Received: by 10.70.6.1 with SMTP id 1mr746819wxf; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:44:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.2 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:44:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2cb10c440606010644s5af56377jb43c1e88b33192b2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:44:21 -0400 From: "Luis Villa" To: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Anne_=D8stergaard?=" In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010643x1dfe5e48mbcf68a2fd0352fae@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> <1149168764.6894.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2cb10c440606010643x1dfe5e48mbcf68a2fd0352fae@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:44:24 -0000 On 6/1/06, Luis Villa wrote: > On 6/1/06, Anne =D8stergaard wrote: > > tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 09:05 -0400, skrev Luis Villa: > > > On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > Luis Villa wrote: > > > > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > > > > > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a develop= er*- > > > > > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > > > > > someone with such experience. > > > > > > > > That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a devel= oper > > > > from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women inv= olved > > > > in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct > > > > discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so = who's > > > > better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-g= eek? > > > > > > A female geek? > > > > I would like to hear your definition of a geek, please. > > For the purposes of this discussion, 'someone actively involved in the > development of our software through the traditional means used by our > community'. This need not be direct software development (as everyone > knows I do very little of that) but it does mean involvement in > creating the product that we ship, and it does mean at least some > participation in the mainstream of the community- desktop-devel-list, > #gnome-hackers, etc. And I might add that the reason this is important is that it seems to me insane that someone could devise policy to get people involved in something they have not themselves participated in. Luis From anne@oestergaard.nu Thu Jun 1 09:59:39 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 831943B01C4 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:59:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08905-06 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:59:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero1.cybercity.dk (cicero1.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55B103B009D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:59:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user3.cybercity.dk (user3.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.36]) by cicero1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39B0D63ED41 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:59:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user3.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id E770393E9B for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:59:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 24279 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2006 13:59:34 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 1 Jun 2006 13:59:34 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Luis Villa In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:59:34 +0200 Message-Id: <1149170374.6894.73.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.535 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.064, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.535 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:59:39 -0000 tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 08:13 -0400, skrev Luis Villa: > On 6/1/06, Murray Cumming wrote: > > Anne wrote: > > [snip] > > > I do not say this to start a new long debat in this tread. But it has > > > become obvious that the 1% participation of women in FLOSS is > > > embarrassing and we need to have a look at why this is the case and make > > > some cultural changes. > > > > > > I know that the Computer Science Department at the University of > > > Gothenburg in Sweden has a gender action plan: > > > http://www.informatik.gu.se/dokument/dokument.xsp?group=jamstalldhet&menu=org > > > > > > I think that many other universities and even GNOME and Ubuntu could get > > > a lot of inspiration here. (Provided it gets translated from Swedish > > > into a language you understand.) > > [snip] > > > > Realistically, this plans needs to be written by you. Others will help you > > with it, but you need to create it and drive it. > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > someone with such experience. The FLOSSPOLS report was so eyeopening because it was written by a man who had to learn about these matters first and had a professional scientific experience and tool case to use. I will work with the whole of the women in FLOSS community as well as with the persons who wrote the FLOSSPOLS reports and others who have written scientific reports and with those of you who are interested. Just because you can't cover the whole spectrum personally does not mean that I am not entitled to have an opinion. I have experience in gender issues on a professional basis in the Nordic Countries, EU, and UN which might help. I attended the UN conference in Beijing representing the Nordic Council. Besides Luis I have manufactured a FLOSS nerd many years ago so I have access to free in house expertise on the technical matters. Have you by the way had time to read the FLOSSPOLS report yourself? Anne From hobbit@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk Thu Jun 1 10:28:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 033D03B009D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:28:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11133-10 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:28:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk [81.2.110.251]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F8913B0262 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:28:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (8.13.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id k51Dg9xP016043 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:42:09 +0100 Received: (from hobbit@localhost) by lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k51Dg8iZ016042 for foundation-list@gnome.org; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:42:08 +0100 Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:42:08 +0100 From: Telsa Gwynne To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060601134208.GA14011@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.503 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.096, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.503 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:28:54 -0000 Ar Tue, May 30, 2006 at 01:04:43PM +0200, ysgrifennodd Murray Cumming: > I don't think we need a whole organisation to police it. At the least, it > should just be how we expect people to behave on mailing lists and IRC and > it could be up to the administrator of that list or channel to decide > whether somone's conduct is unacceptable. But maybe some people would be > reassured by the existence of some group that they could go to in extreme > circumstances. > > Here's a simple start: > http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct > > What do you think? What else would you like to see there? I think this is a long-overdue thing to do. I also think that there is no fun being part of a "community" which is actually arguing the toss on whether "we think people should be courteous to each other within this community" is a good thing or not. Telsa From liam@holoweb.net Thu Jun 1 10:32:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6566A3B0225 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:32:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11652-07 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:32:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hd-t1637cl.privatedns.com (ip-209-172-34-239.reverse.privatedns.com [209.172.34.239]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7180F3B023E for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:32:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 28816 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2006 14:41:31 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO dell.barefootcomputing.com) (127.0.0.1) by hd-t1637cl.privatedns.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2006 14:41:31 -0000 From: Liam R E Quin To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149065540.5127.117.camel@localhost> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 10:29:53 -0400 Message-Id: <1149172193.8916.108.camel@dell.barefootcomputing.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1-1mdk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.564 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.035, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.564 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:32:47 -0000 On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 13:23 +0200, Anne Østergaard wrote: [...] > I have personally had the feeling over the past couple of years that the > general atmosphere in the GNOME community has hardened. Although I am not sure what you mean by hardened here, it doesn't sound good. > I fully agree with Bill and others here and I think we have to establish > a gender action plan within GNOME, Ubuntu etc. A non-discrimination policy would be a useful thing to do. The city of Toronto has a fairly good one, devised in conjunction with a large number of minority groups over a long period: http://www.toronto.ca/grants/pdf/declaration_non_discrimination_policy.pdf It was printed on a huge multilingual poster (including Braille) and distributed widely. Creation or adoption of such a policy is not the same as saying that there is discrimination, of course -- it is saying that discrimination isn't OK. Gnome has done ground-breaking work on accessibility, on internationalisation, and on usability. This work ought to be sending a strong message that diversity is welcomed. Beyond that I am not sure how to get more women involved. One difficulty is cultural in many parts of the world, unfortunately: girls are often trained to turn to boys when something needs fixing. To get back on topic of the original thread, I'd rather see some non-discrimination non-violence policies in place and then a code of conduct would consist of "follow the guidelines". Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org From luis.villa@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 11:11:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91A883B023D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:11:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14988-04 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:11:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.206]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 492373B01C4 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:11:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so262700wxd for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 08:11:10 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=c7nCkDAeUk9IARaAuoVqYt1X9YWo84LfbEM3sclWHemKQVbV6XZwhimTvwKq3L7pxQHE+osmIJDrNectrnGDL6lD3NLgBJO3tf9krWJaNK9P7mHIyFopDtnCN3soWOcj6dmTUZqcs/v2wRK7V/1rovRn7brKfqTNc4J/9yQMHak= Received: by 10.70.89.7 with SMTP id m7mr842070wxb; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 08:11:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.2 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:11:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2cb10c440606010811p27d3a2cfk1d834f6e2ca01d74@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:11:10 -0400 From: "Luis Villa" To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20060601134208.GA14011@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060601134208.GA14011@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:11:13 -0000 On 6/1/06, Telsa Gwynne wrote: > Ar Tue, May 30, 2006 at 01:04:43PM +0200, ysgrifennodd Murray Cumming: > > I don't think we need a whole organisation to police it. At the least, it > > should just be how we expect people to behave on mailing lists and IRC and > > it could be up to the administrator of that list or channel to decide > > whether somone's conduct is unacceptable. But maybe some people would be > > reassured by the existence of some group that they could go to in extreme > > circumstances. > > > > Here's a simple start: > > http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct > > > > What do you think? What else would you like to see there? > > I think this is a long-overdue thing to do. > > I also think that there is no fun being part of a "community" which is > actually arguing the toss on whether "we think people should be courteous > to each other within this community" is a good thing or not. I don't think anyone is arguing against being courteous; I'm certainly not. I just think we'd be better off focusing on actually making people more courteous, instead of writing rules about it. Luis From david.bolter@utoronto.ca Thu Jun 1 11:26:26 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5FB23B0D6C for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:26:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16176-02 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:26:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bureau8.utcc.utoronto.ca (bureau8.utcc.utoronto.ca [128.100.132.18]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CC433B027D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:26:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from otter.atrc.utoronto.ca ([142.150.154.224] EHLO [142.150.154.224] ident: IDENT-NOT-QUERIED [port 36999]) by bureau8.utcc.utoronto.ca with ESMTP id <25261-25808>; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:23:26 -0400 Message-ID: <447F066B.3020108@utoronto.ca> Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:23:23 -0400 From: David Bolter User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060420) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Luis Villa References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060601134208.GA14011@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> <2cb10c440606010811p27d3a2cfk1d834f6e2ca01d74@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010811p27d3a2cfk1d834f6e2ca01d74@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.564 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.035, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.564 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:26:27 -0000 Luis Villa wrote: > On 6/1/06, Telsa Gwynne wrote: >> Ar Tue, May 30, 2006 at 01:04:43PM +0200, ysgrifennodd Murray Cumming: >> > I don't think we need a whole organisation to police it. At the >> least, it >> > should just be how we expect people to behave on mailing lists and >> IRC and >> > it could be up to the administrator of that list or channel to decide >> > whether somone's conduct is unacceptable. But maybe some people >> would be >> > reassured by the existence of some group that they could go to in >> extreme >> > circumstances. >> > >> > Here's a simple start: >> > http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct >> > >> > What do you think? What else would you like to see there? >> >> I think this is a long-overdue thing to do. >> >> I also think that there is no fun being part of a "community" which is >> actually arguing the toss on whether "we think people should be >> courteous >> to each other within this community" is a good thing or not. > > I don't think anyone is arguing against being courteous; I'm certainly > not. I just think we'd be better off focusing on actually making > people more courteous, instead of writing rules about it. > I sense we are all close to agreeing here... I think the fear is the idea that rules will restrict us. The GPL is very restrictive but isn't that what makes GPL software so free? I like the idea of having guidelines that suggest the protection of people from discrimination. Being a shy Canadian... if I was on IRC witnessing silliness I would like the option of politely pointing someone to a guidelines wiki page than actually arguing with them. cheers, David From uraeus@linuxrising.org Thu Jun 1 11:36:19 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 675EB3B0DDC for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:36:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16890-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:36:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx1.es6.egwn.net (server02.es6.egwn.net [195.10.6.12]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1B253B02A2 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:36:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.235] (core.fluendo.com [195.10.6.237]) by mx1.es6.egwn.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 788BA4F8310 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:36:15 +0200 (CEST) From: Christian Fredrik Kalager Schaller To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149065540.5127.117.camel@localhost> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 17:34:53 +0200 Message-Id: <1149176093.2487.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 (2.6.1-1.fc5.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.056 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.057, BAYES_50=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -0.056 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:36:19 -0000 On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 13:23 +0200, Anne Østergaard wrote: > I have personally had the feeling over the past couple of years that the > general atmosphere in the GNOME community has hardened. > I don't think its has hardened as much as grown older. Going back 5 years we where 'all' in our early/mid twenties or late teens with a lot extra energy and exploring a new frontier. Today a lot of the same people are around, getting close to or having passed thirty. Hair is thinning, greying or receding, bellies growing and the long term effect of a coke and pizza diet is taking its toll on both mind and body. These people have grown wise with age, but also their patience and energy to help newbie number 1000 who asks a less informed question have fallen. So answers tend either to not be forthcoming or being short often feeling a bit curt, maybe just a 'sorry WONTFIX'. The regrowth of younger developers, who might have the energy to devote to helping the lost noobs, tend to want to defer answering questions to the old wizards in the fear of saying something wrong as things have also grown more complicated since those early days. I don't think we can solve this apart from enforcing retirement from the community once passed 30 to keep our average young and energetic :) Christian From alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk Thu Jun 1 11:39:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E01953B02D6 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:39:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17200-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:39:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from out.lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (unknown [81.2.110.250]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E049C3B0215 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:39:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by out.lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k51Dve6a014608; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:00:22 +0100 Received: (from alan@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.4/8.13.4/Submit) id k51Dvd2O014606; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:57:39 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: alan set sender to alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk using -f From: Alan Cox To: Murray Cumming In-Reply-To: <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:57:33 +0100 Message-Id: <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.3 (2.2.3-2.fc4) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.593 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.006, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.593 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:39:56 -0000 On Iau, 2006-06-01 at 14:33 +0200, Murray Cumming wrote: > Hmm, how about people working together? It just seems that the person who > most most obviously wants this should be the person trying to make it > happen. I'd be wary of pursuing just the "women in GNOME" issue, because many of the same things put off far more than just women. Running around shouting "pants off" is not, for example, very compatible with the Japanese cultural expectations. Also if "Code of Conduct" is too strong then "Expected Behaviour" perhaps. Personally I don't see a problem with "Code of Conduct" in that it deals with acting for, speaking for, representing or being part of Gnome, or when using its facilities. It isn't too much to ask for people to keep other stuff elsewhere, or to engage in other incompatible activities from a non-gnome email address or on a different irc network. Alan From shaunm@gnome.org Thu Jun 1 11:51:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E25B3B0215 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:51:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17493-09 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:51:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wolfram.com (mailhub.wolfram.com [140.177.10.16]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC8F63B02D6 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:51:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shaunmlx.wri.wolfram.com (shaunmlx.wri.wolfram.com [140.177.4.54]) (authenticated bits=0) by wolfram.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k51FpH0N012193 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:51:18 -0500 From: Shaun McCance To: Dave Neary In-Reply-To: <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440605300709u669c5da2sa352f1f5fedf2b06@mail.gmail.com> <14439.194.138.18.131.1149000460.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060530151633.GB28961@bridgewayconsulting.com.au> <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 10:51:17 -0500 Message-Id: <1149177077.31607.13.camel@shaunmlx> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.527 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.072, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.527 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming , Davyd Madeley Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:51:45 -0000 On Tue, 2006-05-30 at 17:31 +0200, Dave Neary wrote: > Hi, > > Davyd Madeley wrote: > > Also of interest, a (female) colleague asked where we're getting our > > 1% contribution statistic from. It sounds believable, but is it > > people with CVS accounts, or does it include translators who send > > translations to their i18n team leader. Did someone just look > > through a list of names and guess the genders? Similarly for > > "asianness" (sic). Are we just using the domain names on their > > email addresses? > > The 1% comes from the FLOSS-POLS report on women in free software, among > others. Hanna Wallach's presented a 1.5% figure from that result before: > http://grandtextauto.gatech.edu/2005/11/22/debian-women/ > > That's 1.5% in free software compared to 28% in proprietary software. I'd be interested in seeing the raw numbers. My experience in the proprietary software industry is that there tends to be a reasonably high percentage of women in technical jobs that aren't necessarily programming (though they may involve some programming), such as project management, tech writing, graphic design, and quality assurance. All of these positions tend to be under-represented in the free software world, at least among volunteer efforts. I'm not trying to say that we need more of these positions just to inflate our gender numbers (though I will say we need more of these positions for other reasons). All I'm saying is that the free and proprietary numbers might be measuring slightly different things, and that the proprietary software industry might not be as well integrated as indicated. -- Shaun From murrayc@murrayc.com Thu Jun 1 12:57:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E33E13B0236 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 12:57:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22029-06 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 12:57:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swarthymail-a1.dreamhost.com (ip-208-97-132-53.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 460493B0115 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 12:57:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from noname (p5497F70E.dip.t-dialin.net [84.151.247.14]) by swarthymail-a1.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D70690DF8; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:57:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Murray Cumming To: Alan Cox In-Reply-To: <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 18:57:44 +0200 Message-Id: <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.507 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.092, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.507 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 16:57:54 -0000 On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 14:57 +0100, Alan Cox wrote: > On Iau, 2006-06-01 at 14:33 +0200, Murray Cumming wrote: > > Hmm, how about people working together? It just seems that the person who > > most most obviously wants this should be the person trying to make it > > happen. > > I'd be wary of pursuing just the "women in GNOME" issue, because many of > the same things put off far more than just women. Yes, that's why the gender issue is only one (possible) part of the code of conduct, though it's the reason that I got around to finally pushing it. But Anne is asking specifically for a gender policy/plan, apparently separate to that. I'd just like her to make a suggestion. > Running around > shouting "pants off" is not, for example, very compatible with the > Japanese cultural expectations. > > Also if "Code of Conduct" is too strong then "Expected Behaviour" > perhaps. Personally I don't see a problem with "Code of Conduct" in that > it deals with acting for, speaking for, representing or being part of > Gnome, or when using its facilities. > > It isn't too much to ask for people to keep other stuff elsewhere, or to > engage in other incompatible activities from a non-gnome email address > or on a different irc network. -- Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From anne@oestergaard.nu Thu Jun 1 16:22:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B3E13B0345 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:22:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04031-09 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:22:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61F4C3B0350 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:22:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user5.cybercity.dk (user5.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.51]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 296332450B9 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 22:21:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user5.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id D218D3A1CEA for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 22:21:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 29142 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2006 20:21:57 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 1 Jun 2006 20:21:57 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Murray Cumming In-Reply-To: <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 22:21:56 +0200 Message-Id: <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.536 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.063, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.536 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Alan Cox Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 20:22:13 -0000 tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 18:57 +0200, skrev Murray Cumming: > On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 14:57 +0100, Alan Cox wrote: > > On Iau, 2006-06-01 at 14:33 +0200, Murray Cumming wrote: > > > Hmm, how about people working together? It just seems that the person who > > > most most obviously wants this should be the person trying to make it > > > happen. > > > > I'd be wary of pursuing just the "women in GNOME" issue, because many of > > the same things put off far more than just women. Yes. > Yes, that's why the gender issue is only one (possible) part of the code > of conduct, though it's the reason that I got around to finally pushing > it. > > But Anne is asking specifically for a gender policy/plan, apparently > separate to that. I'd just like her to make a suggestion. I think it is a natural step to take after the EU and FLOSSPOLS report has shown that women are being excluded from the community.- If we want to se some change in attitudes and behavior in GNOME and FLOSS, and se more women involved in the future in all parts and capacities of our projects, we need to find out why only a little more than 1% of are women. > > Running around > > shouting "pants off" is not, for example, very compatible with the > > Japanese cultural expectations. I don't expect it either. > > Also if "Code of Conduct" is too strong then "Expected Behaviour" > > perhaps. Personally I don't see a problem with "Code of Conduct" in that > > it deals with acting for, speaking for, representing or being part of > > Gnome, or when using its facilities. I fully agree. Anne From gpoo@ubiobio.cl Thu Jun 1 16:30:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FCD53B0F5A for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:30:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04723-03 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:30:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay.ubiobio.cl (atlas.dci.ubiobio.cl [146.83.195.21]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18FC33B0DF6 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:30:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by forward.ubiobio.cl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85A3A400341; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:29:06 -0400 (CLT) Received: from pegasus.dci.ubiobio.cl ([146.83.195.11]) by localhost (antivirus.dci.ubiobio.cl [146.83.195.21]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04672-54; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:29:05 -0400 (CLT) Received: from mimos.local (unknown [146.83.198.86]) by pegasus.dci.ubiobio.cl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87AB32804423; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:30:33 -0400 (CLT) From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Germ=E1n_Po=F3_Caama=F1o?= To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 16:30:37 -0400 Message-Id: <1149193838.15278.79.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at ubiobio.cl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.414 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.414 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Alan Cox , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 20:30:49 -0000 On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 22:21 +0200, Anne Østergaard wrote: > tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 18:57 +0200, skrev Murray Cumming: > > On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 14:57 +0100, Alan Cox wrote: > [...] > > > Also if "Code of Conduct" is too strong then "Expected Behaviour" > > > perhaps. Personally I don't see a problem with "Code of Conduct" in that > > > it deals with acting for, speaking for, representing or being part of > > > Gnome, or when using its facilities. > > I fully agree. Some part of this already exists for a long time ago. But, at the moment it is only applied to mail aliases: http://developer.gnome.org/doc/policies/accounts/mail.html The proposal is a kind of extension of that policy, but in the other way (saying what is good). -- Germán Poó-Caamaño http://www.ubiobio.cl/~gpoo/ Concepción - Chile From dneary@free.fr Thu Jun 1 17:13:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ECC13B03C7 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:13:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07168-10 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:13:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp3-g19.free.fr (smtp3-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.29]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4C0B3B035E for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:13:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp3-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8B524970D; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 23:13:42 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <447F5885.8080600@free.fr> Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 23:13:41 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.8 (X11/20060502) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Anne_=D8stergaard?= References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.573 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.026, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.573 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Alan Cox , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 21:13:46 -0000 Hi, Anne Østergaard wrote: > tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 18:57 +0200, skrev Murray Cumming: > I think it is a natural step to take after the EU and FLOSSPOLS report > has shown that women are being excluded from the community.- What I've seen shows that women are not participating in the community - this is not necessarily the same thing as being excluded (which implies some kind of conscious decision on the part of "the community"). Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From domlachowicz@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 17:50:06 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A76A3B029F for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:50:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09033-03 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:50:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.201]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6E823B0323 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:50:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so326172wxd for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:50:04 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=EQz0j9dnYEQkJhXAWayQpR6Xs35ItnM88LGVKIs10TURvWQmE6UuwzzLxOzpt1X2dwvby4ZelOufGT05N2Yikg+fSfXy2u6eVp3ujRO/pA1QWEdDbOk22uuXhBzixogXA7P1933/m5QcoH1eLyDgDl9Ylk6aELLr4sukH7cNQ6c= Received: by 10.70.102.11 with SMTP id z11mr1409705wxb; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.105.2 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2672cf4d0606011450m58601cadq2f8694e2968d753c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:50:04 -0400 From: "Dominic Lachowicz" To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.452 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.148, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.452 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 21:50:06 -0000 > I think it is a natural step to take after the EU and FLOSSPOLS report > has shown that women are being excluded from the community.- This rubs me the wrong way. It's not like we're actively working to exclude women, Asians, or Martians from GNOME. Nor are we actively trying to make GNOME a boys-only club. Simply put, there's no conscious, malicious intent behind the disproportionate male/female ratio, or "Western"/Asian ratio. And I think that this matters... > If we want to se some change in attitudes and behavior in GNOME and > FLOSS, and se more women involved in the future in all parts and > capacities of our projects, we need to find out why only a little more > than 1% of are women. ... because I don't believe that actively pursuing "diversity" for its own sake is a valid goal. I may sound myopic here, but I don't see what the goal of recruiting women qua women or Asians qua Asians gains us as a community. I refuse to measure diversity based on one's genitals or skin color. [However, (for example) recruiting Asians as an attempt to understand their needs, skills, and mentality in order to acquire a greater Asian market share, however, could be ok. Asians are the means. A rockin' version of GNOME on lots of Asian computers is the end.] Instituting open-door policies, non-discriminatory policies/"codes of conduct", and the like are worthwhile goals in-and-of themselves. They advertise what the core tenets of our community are, and this is something we should become better at. But one should not necessarily abandon established (nay, endearing) traits of our community just to grow it larger. You'd give up something concretely cool about the community for some undefined, possibly non-existant benefit. And that ain't diversity, it's its opposite. I'd rather see us resolve to do a better job of marketing how open, cool, and charismatic we are as a community, and let the chips fall where they will. Get the word out to as many people as practicable, welcome everyone, and let the diversity come to us as an organic result of our general openness and coolness. Where we have some specific goal in mind, change as necessary to meet that goal. But don't change for change's sake alone. Recruit interesting people. Recruit smart, talented people. Recruit people useful for your ends. Welcome all people. But don't recruit genitals and skin colors. They're neither interesting nor useful for free software's purposes. Justice is blind, and so should we be. Best, Dom -- Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums. From jdub@waugh.id.au Thu Jun 1 21:05:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 763FE3B0F8D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:05:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20266-06 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:05:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 674FB3B0FA8 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:05:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (ppp121-112.static.internode.on.net [150.101.121.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89CA13C573 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:05:29 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2569D40B4; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:05:26 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:05:26 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060602010526.GE5138@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060601134208.GA14011@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> <2cb10c440606010811p27d3a2cfk1d834f6e2ca01d74@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010811p27d3a2cfk1d834f6e2ca01d74@mail.gmail.com> Reply-By: Mon Jun 5 11:01:11 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 11:01:11 up 10:53, 6 users, load average: 0.23, 0.11, 0.16 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.445 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.445 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Isn't and Wasn't "Rules" [Was: Code Of Conduct] X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 01:05:33 -0000 > I don't think anyone is arguing against being courteous; I'm certainly > not. I just think we'd be better off focusing on actually making people > more courteous, instead of writing rules about it. I think most everyone else has got out of the "characterising it as rules" thing already. It's pretty obvious that's not what Murray's suggesting, or what we're (slowly, consensus-gridlock-ly) buying into. I think a fun way to deal with this criticism ('cos it's valid and expected) is to actually make it a Very GNOMEy Code of Conduct. Let's not beat around the bush - first point: "Be Excellent to Each Other". *guitar lick* - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ "To do: Start up a a magazine dedicated to picky grammar. Call it 'Whom Weekly'." - WzDD From jdub@waugh.id.au Thu Jun 1 21:08:39 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ED713B0D7A for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:08:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20777-05 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:08:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72BFD3B0196 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:08:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (ppp121-112.static.internode.on.net [150.101.121.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEA123C31C for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:08:35 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3CEC340B4; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:08:32 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:08:32 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060602010832.GF5138@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060601134208.GA14011@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> <2cb10c440606010811p27d3a2cfk1d834f6e2ca01d74@mail.gmail.com> <20060602010526.GE5138@waugh.id.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060602010526.GE5138@waugh.id.au> Reply-By: Mon Jun 5 11:08:22 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 11:08:22 up 11:00, 6 users, load average: 0.01, 0.04, 0.09 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.445 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.445 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Isn't and Wasn't "Rules" [Was: Code Of Conduct] X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 01:08:39 -0000 > I think a fun way to deal with this criticism ('cos it's valid and > expected) is to actually make it a Very GNOMEy Code of Conduct. Let's not > beat around the bush - first point: "Be Excellent to Each Other". > > *guitar lick* (added this point to the wiki page) - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2007: Sydney, Australia http://lca2007.linux.org.au/ "I don't want the world, I just want your half." - They Might Be Giants, Ana Ng From murrayc@murrayc.com Fri Jun 2 03:16:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 278B63B1058 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 03:16:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05391-08 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 03:16:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail2.sd.dreamhost.com (webmail2.sd.dreamhost.com [66.33.201.157]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3157B3B1008 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 03:16:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.murrayc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by webmail2.sd.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6311ADC71B; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 00:16:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 194.138.18.132 (proxying for unknown) (SquirrelMail authenticated user murrayc@murrayc.com) by webmail.murrayc.com with HTTP; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 09:16:43 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <44634.194.138.18.132.1149232603.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606011450m58601cadq2f8694e2968d753c@mail.gmail.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606011450m58601cadq2f8694e2968d753c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 09:16:43 +0200 (CEST) From: "Murray Cumming" To: "Dominic Lachowicz" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.557 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.042, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.557 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 07:16:48 -0000 >> I think it is a natural step to take after the EU and FLOSSPOLS report >> has shown that women are being excluded from the community.- > > This rubs me the wrong way. It's not like we're actively working to > exclude women, Asians, or Martians from GNOME. Nor are we actively > trying to make GNOME a boys-only club. Simply put, there's no > conscious, malicious intent behind the disproportionate male/female > ratio, or "Western"/Asian ratio. And I think that this matters... Yet it may require conscious intent to fix it. >> If we want to se some change in attitudes and behavior in GNOME and >> FLOSS, and se more women involved in the future in all parts and >> capacities of our projects, we need to find out why only a little more >> than 1% of are women. > > ... because I don't believe that actively pursuing "diversity" for its > own sake is a valid goal. I may sound myopic here, but I don't see > what the goal of recruiting women qua women or Asians qua Asians gains > us as a community. Other than the obvious morally repellent idea that we might be perceived as unwelcoming to arbitrary large groups of people [1], there are plenty of selfish reasons for doing this: - We are a worldwide project aiming to create a project to make the world a better place for humanity, so we really should be trying our best to involve representative parts of the world in that. It makes it more likely that we will create a product that helps with their goals. - Women + Asia are two huge groups of potential contributors. That many contributors can make a huge contribution if we can get them on board. [1] The idea is so awful that we should be doing whatever we can even if we are not sure that it's going to work or that we are the cause, certainly as long as those things are not going to hurt us. What we have to gain is far more than we have to lose. > I refuse to measure diversity based on one's > genitals or skin color. > > [However, (for example) recruiting Asians as an attempt to understand > their needs, skills, and mentality in order to acquire a greater Asian > market share, however, could be ok. Asians are the means. A rockin' > version of GNOME on lots of Asian computers is the end.] > > Instituting open-door policies, non-discriminatory policies/"codes of > conduct", and the like are worthwhile goals in-and-of themselves. They > advertise what the core tenets of our community are, and this is > something we should become better at. But one should not necessarily > abandon established (nay, endearing) traits of our community just to > grow it larger. You'd give up something concretely cool about the > community for some undefined, possibly non-existant benefit. And that > ain't diversity, it's its opposite. > > I'd rather see us resolve to do a better job of marketing how open, > cool, and charismatic we are as a community, and let the chips fall > where they will. Get the word out to as many people as practicable, > welcome everyone, and let the diversity come to us as an organic > result of our general openness and coolness. Where we have some > specific goal in mind, change as necessary to meet that goal. But > don't change for change's sake alone. > > Recruit interesting people. Recruit smart, talented people. Recruit > people useful for your ends. Welcome all people. But don't recruit > genitals and skin colors. They're neither interesting nor useful for > free software's purposes. Justice is blind, and so should we be. This unfortunately ignores the conclusion that many have made that some groups will not feel at home in a community until their are people like them in the community. To get to that critical mass we may need to help the process along a bit. I think Callum said it well: http://spooky-possum.org/cgi-bin/pyblosxom.cgi/womenoss.html The code of conduct doesn't try to address that directly, however. It's just a small part of it. Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From dneary@free.fr Fri Jun 2 11:12:08 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B8BE3B0492; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:12:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02791-04; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:12:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.wanadoo.fr (smtp1.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.30]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 714393B045D; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:12:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf0101.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id DE51F1C00250; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:12:03 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060602151203910.DE51F1C00250@mwinf0101.orange.fr Message-ID: <44805543.9030503@free.fr> Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 17:12:03 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Foundation-List , Advisory Board X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Co-option of Quim Gil to the board X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:12:08 -0000 Hi, When Luis announced to the board that he wanted to resign [1] a couple of weeks ago, the board discussed our options - referendum or co-option. We felt that co-opting a new member onto the board, on the basis of the election results last December, was the best way to select the newest member of the board. Our decision was made easy by the fact that since the election, this person has gone on to become a heavyweight in the GNOME community in very short order. So without further ado, I'd like to announce that the board has decided to co-opt Quim Gil onto the board into the vacant position left by Luis Villa, effective immediately. We're all sorry to see Luis leave the board, but I have a feeling that this means we'll be hearing even more from him in the future. I'd like to wish him all the best in his budding legal career. Welcome on board, Quim. Cheers, Dave. [1] http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/06/01/resigning-from-the-board/ -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From anne@oestergaard.nu Fri Jun 2 11:20:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 323583B0508 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:20:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03437-07 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:20:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero1.cybercity.dk (cicero1.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1D7C3B01DB for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:20:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EE2A63F49B for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:20:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 66BAF750595 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:20:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 7791 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2006 15:20:29 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 2 Jun 2006 15:20:29 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: foundation-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 17:20:29 +0200 Message-Id: <1149261629.6843.46.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.33 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.145, BAYES_40=-0.185] X-Spam-Score: -1.33 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Denmark to follow in the foot steps of Massachuchets on open standards X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:20:34 -0000 Denmark to follow in the foot steps of Massachuchets on open standards. Half an hour ago the Danish Parliament, Folketinget voted on B 103 on introducing open standards in the state administration: The short version: " To introduce and maintain a set of open standards from January 1st 2008 or if this is not possible as soon as it is technically possible". All voters, 113 voted in favor. This means that the Minister Of Science, Technology and Innovation has to make a law proposal at present it in the next session of Folketinget after the sommer vacation. This is a huge step forward for kompetition and interoperability in the software sector. Best wishes Anne From luis.villa@gmail.com Fri Jun 2 11:42:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4D6B3B0135 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:42:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04691-10 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:42:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.207]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C508B3B0487 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:42:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so573067wxd for ; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 08:42:41 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=alaXrWnB7HFYQ//qRQWu01yX6KdjMGVhaJlybNLM3KO7RMd5Uc4kem7mi8uVGw8RntB0znpdBPAwJGaZl1JIHs04AUo1LEXRBhVBM0027t55glEdEsh/X/4An6icYfYVvGITMl38FizG9Hsn0KfHIvq62jL7wLvvcynRswYJQiA= Received: by 10.70.105.9 with SMTP id d9mr2597990wxc; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 08:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.2 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 08:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2cb10c440606020842r42c3eed1v9b9fb9796cffc37e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:42:39 -0400 From: "Luis Villa" To: "Dave Neary" In-Reply-To: <44805543.9030503@free.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <44805543.9030503@free.fr> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Foundation-List Subject: Re: Co-option of Quim Gil to the board X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:42:48 -0000 On 6/2/06, Dave Neary wrote: > We're all sorry to see Luis leave the > board, but I have a feeling that this means we'll be hearing even more > from him in the future. I'd like to wish him all the best in his budding > legal career. Should have announced that here first, of course :) My mistake. To paraphrase what I said on the blog post, when I ran for board this year, I mentioned that I'd be AWOL towards the end of the term, but I miscalculated for how long. Given that it would have been roughly 1/2 of the term, I decided to resign as quickly as the correct replacement could be found. Given Quim's excellent leadership of GUADEC so far, I have every confidence that he'll do an excellent job of it. It has been an honor and a pleasure to be elected to the board as many times as I have- I owe a big debt of thanks to everyone who has supported me over the years. I hope I've served well and fulfilled your expectations. Luis From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Fri Jun 2 17:59:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF3F63B0424 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:59:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26906-01 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:59:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 02A003B0408 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:59:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 6750 invoked by uid 0); 2 Jun 2006 21:59:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.34]) (83.42.203.236) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 21:59:45 +0000 From: Quim Gil To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <4480555C.8070702@free.fr> References: <4480555C.8070702@free.fr> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-We/bITLkFRm0xgU/rk3X" Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 23:59:45 +0200 Message-Id: <1149285585.4975.205.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.499, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Co-option of Quim Gil to the board X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 21:59:52 -0000 --=-We/bITLkFRm0xgU/rk3X Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El dv 02 de 06 del 2006 a les 17:12 +0200, en/na Dave Neary va escriure: > Welcome on board, Quim. Thank you for the trust. Where is the manual? Throw me some tasks... to be started really on July 1st. Let me say thanks to Murray for the ignition, thanks to Dave for the companion and thanks to Luis... not for leaving but for being a referent in many aspects. I still don't know what he does all the time with the bugsquashers ;) but reading him here and there is always a constructive experience. And thanks of course to the open, friendly and welcoming GNOME community, that I'm getting to know in various aspects from my seat at the GUADEC ticket window.=20 For the administrativia and the transparency:=20 I was still affiliated to interactors.coop when I presented candidacy last December, but on January I was already independent and self-employed. Since then I'm working part time for GUADEC 2006, being paid by the Information Society office of the Catalan government (this could be considered my current affiliation) until July 15th. =20 --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-We/bITLkFRm0xgU/rk3X Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEgLTRBEzHYk6x634RAus1AKCFY7lfbc38l3Ye7IPooXcpo5i9zACgmj37 QthA+VvQOHgeSKgkqm530+k= =m61U -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-We/bITLkFRm0xgU/rk3X-- From alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk Sun Jun 4 12:16:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C50043B01B6 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 12:16:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28610-07 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 12:16:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (unknown [81.2.110.250]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4DAD3B009F for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 12:16:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k54GVY3s024738; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:31:35 +0100 Received: (from alan@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k54GVYRS024737; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:31:34 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: alan set sender to alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk using -f From: Alan Cox To: Dominic Lachowicz In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606011450m58601cadq2f8694e2968d753c@mail.gmail.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606011450m58601cadq2f8694e2968d753c@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 17:31:33 +0100 Message-Id: <1149438693.23209.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 (2.6.1-1.fc5.2) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.386 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.201, BAYES_40=-0.185] X-Spam-Score: -1.386 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 16:16:27 -0000 Ar Iau, 2006-06-01 am 17:50 -0400, ysgrifennodd Dominic Lachowicz: > This rubs me the wrong way. It's not like we're actively working to > exclude women, Asians, or Martians from GNOME. Nor are we actively > trying to make GNOME a boys-only club. Simply put, there's no > conscious, malicious intent behind the disproportionate male/female > ratio, or "Western"/Asian ratio. And I think that this matters... It shouldn't IMHO be taken that way. Most discrimination of all kinds is utterly unintentional, and that kind of discrimination is harder to tackle because there is no evil intent and no-one to directly blame. It still needs tackling, and that is in part about making people understand when their actions put off or exclude others. Alan From danilo@gnome.org Sun Jun 4 18:36:42 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED3AB3B0080 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 18:36:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15344-09 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 18:36:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from avet.kvota.net (unknown [147.91.15.33]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4238D3B0008 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 18:36:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by avet.kvota.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1A75A7D1A0; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 00:41:17 +0200 (CEST) To: Alan Cox References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606011450m58601cadq2f8694e2968d753c@mail.gmail.com> <1149438693.23209.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> From: danilo@gnome.org (=?utf-8?q?Danilo_=C5=A0egan?=) Mail-Followup-To: Alan Cox , Dominic Lachowicz , foundation-list@gnome.org Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 00:41:16 +0200 In-Reply-To: <1149438693.23209.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> (Alan Cox's message of "Sun, 04 Jun 2006 17:31:33 +0100") Message-ID: <87k67w8rxv.fsf@avet.kvota.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/21.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.489 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.110, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.489 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 22:36:42 -0000 Hi Alan, Dominic, Yesterday at 18:31, Alan Cox wrote: > It shouldn't IMHO be taken that way. Most discrimination of all kinds is > utterly unintentional, and that kind of discrimination is harder to > tackle because there is no evil intent and no-one to directly blame. It > still needs tackling, and that is in part about making people understand > when their actions put off or exclude others. Any actions whatsoever put off or exclude others. Eg. even insisting on freedom (in practice) excludes those who insist that they need no freedom in software (even if we're not intentionally excluding them: if they need no freedom, it doesn't mean that it will harm them, so why wouldn't they join and help us?). And as already indicated on this list, there are several people here who are afraid that establishing Code of Conduct would "put off or exclude others" as well (i.e. be "discriminative"). And not because they would not abide by the rules, but because they wouldn't want to be told what to, and what not to do. Shall we stop promoting freedom because of this "discrimination"? Or "being nice"? (this is exactly the reason I am in favour of CoC: just like we should promote freedom even if it puts off someone, we should promote politeness even if it excludes someone) I'd rather say that we're getting increasingly and needlessly touchy here. Lets just get on with the Code of Conduct (or whatever the name is now), and hope that it will resolve issues we as a community might have, yet are unable to acknowledge or recognise. Cheers, Danilo From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Mon Jun 5 03:15:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66D613B0560 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 03:15:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10156-09 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 03:14:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C3F413B070E for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 03:14:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 32058 invoked by uid 0); 5 Jun 2006 07:14:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.34]) (83.55.175.229) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 07:14:53 +0000 From: Quim Gil To: Shaun McCance In-Reply-To: <1149177077.31607.13.camel@shaunmlx> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440605300709u669c5da2sa352f1f5fedf2b06@mail.gmail.com> <14439.194.138.18.131.1149000460.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060530151633.GB28961@bridgewayconsulting.com.au> <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> <1149177077.31607.13.camel@shaunmlx> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-CbFrQf4qX9tQSp9+ED3+" Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 09:14:51 +0200 Message-Id: <1149491692.5124.54.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.281 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=1.318, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -1.281 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 07:15:03 -0000 --=-CbFrQf4qX9tQSp9+ED3+ Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El dj 01 de 06 del 2006 a les 10:51 -0500, en/na Shaun McCance va escriure: > there tends to > be a reasonably high percentage of women in technical jobs > that aren't necessarily programming (though they may involve > some programming), such as project management, tech writing, > graphic design, and quality assurance. >=20 > All of these positions tend to be under-represented in the > free software world, at least among volunteer efforts. Good point.=20 We can try to find and convince the very few geek women out there for free software hardcore programming. But if we miss people in all the non-programming tasks, wouldn't be easier to find new types of contributors through these gateways? Documentation, marketing, web publishing, graphic design, journalism, project coordination, community management... are tasks that involve both women and men in the professional world. We have difficulties recruiting volunteers, any kind of volunteers, in these tasks and I think the reason is not some kind of gender or minority discrimination but, put simply, the predominant geek culture (which I bet some sociologist has already found out to be based mainly on male and western paradigms). It is probably good to promote geek-ism in those aspects of free software related to programming but... is it useful to promote it in the rest of tasks? I don't think so, unless we want to develop a desktop and a bunch applications successful between geeks only. I bet this geek culture is stopping many women from being interested in the free software phenomena (in fact I asked several computer-friendly women and this is the answer I got). Being myself not a programmer, it stopped me from finding a place to contribute until I learned to be geek-friendly. And this culture is still stopping many of my non-geek colleagues (both women and men) to come and give a hand. Ask your friends. =20 It is clear that women in general are happy investing their personal time in social activities without a monetary or even a clear benefit. Women have been key in any process of social change (even if their names don't appear in the history books). Have a look on social, non-commercial activities around the world and you will find women everywhere, many times challenging the gender percentages or simply having a clear superiority over men.=20 If we fail involving women (and other "majority" groups in other social, non-commercial organizations and activities) it's because something else, an the geek culture is in the top of the suspicious list. We can work making the geek paradigms more feminine or less gender-determined but changing a paradigm takes time and there is no manual for it. Working on less geek-ish gateways and environments for the non-programming tasks seems to be a more tangible challenge that can make a change in the short term. --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-CbFrQf4qX9tQSp9+ED3+ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEg9nqBEzHYk6x634RAqlJAJ4zANfndROsAmG+04Ii2MTuE6ocXACgvF4R FcFX4ebWv4xv6VK+G+wa1OI= =/nJ+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-CbFrQf4qX9tQSp9+ED3+-- From anne@oestergaard.nu Mon Jun 5 09:40:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 214FC3B08AB for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:40:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02988-06 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:40:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46C153B0874 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:40:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA90A245038 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:40:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id DC24D75034D for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:40:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 23250 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 13:40:22 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 13:40:22 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: foundation-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 15:40:21 +0200 Message-Id: <1149514822.4447.55.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.285 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.177, BAYES_40=-0.185, TW_PL=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -1.285 X-Spam-Level: Subject: The 3rd International GPLv3 Conference: Takes place in CCCB, Barcelona, Spain, June 22nd & 23rd X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:40:40 -0000 The 3rd International GPLv3 Conference: Takes place in CCCB, Barcelona, Spain, June 22nd & 23rd! The venue has now been confirmed as Aula 1, Centre de Cultura Contemporanea (CCCB).www.cccb.org/ Important information especially to those of you who are going to this years GUADEC and have not yet brought your traveling ticket and to all of you living near by. Just before GUADEC starts there is this very important conference taking place in Barcelona: The 3rd International GPLv3 Conference: CCCB, Barcelona, Spain, June 22nd & 23rd http://fsfeurope.org/projects/gplv3/europe-gplv3-conference It is very important to all GNOME and other developers of Free- and Open Source Software to follow closely and participate in the discussions on how we would like the final version of GPLv3 to be. This is not a matter for lawyers only but a vital question for everyone who has an interest in software freedom and how you make it possible to share and build upon the ideas of each other in order to get a more free, fair, ethic, and democratic international society. It is also vital for creating the best possible legal as well as technical environment and conditions for future innovation. Best regards Anne From anne@oestergaard.nu Mon Jun 5 09:42:10 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5315D3B08BA for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:42:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02993-10 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:42:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 549A53B086F for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:42:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user5.cybercity.dk (user5.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.51]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BB1724518C for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:42:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user5.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 341613A2411 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:42:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 23285 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 13:42:05 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 13:42:05 -0000 Dato: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 18:11:26 +0200 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: foundation-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 15:42:04 +0200 Message-Id: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.785 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.675, BAYES_05=-1.11] X-Spam-Score: -1.785 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:42:10 -0000 Hello all GNOME Foundation Members, About the size of the present board. The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño. Background: Not so long ago we had a Reducing Board Size Referendum "Should the board size be reduced from its current 11 directors to 7 directors?" The Referendum Results: 188 members voted for this referendum. The repartition of the votes is: yes (117 votes) no (70 votes) blank votes: 1 The board is at the moment of the opinion that a GNOME Board of 7 persons should normally work and be enough, provided that we have a staff person who can take part of the work load. Also at present a couple of the 7 board members have been given additional responsibilities at their ordinary work places and/or enlarged their family so they are pressed for time for "heavy" board work. Since the board has not yet hired anybody (we are in the process of doing so), the board would suggest to you that for the remaining of this year, we ask Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño to join the board. They are both happy and willing to join the board, but under the condition that there is not severe objections from the GNOME Foundation Members. I think that I need not tell you, that the two candidates in question are highly respected for their long time great contributions to the GNOME project and the GNOME community spirit. Being responsible for having proposed this temporary compromise solution, I naturally hope for your blessings. Please react within 10 days if you have problems with enlarging the board by inviting Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño to join the GNOME Board of Directors for the rest of 2006. Best wishes Anne From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Mon Jun 5 12:52:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C85B63B03D4 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 12:52:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15369-05 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 12:52:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 54F843B059A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 12:52:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 5 Jun 2006 17:52:10 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 17:52:09 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 16:52:14 -0000 On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Anne [ISO-8859-1] =D8stergaard wrote: > Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 15:42:04 +0200 > From: "Anne [ISO-8859-1] =D8stergaard" > To: foundation-list@gnome.org > Subject: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons > > Hello all GNOME Foundation Members, > > About the size of the present board. > > The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the > board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germ=C3=A1n Po=C3=B3-Caama=C3= =B1o. > > Background: > Not so long ago we had a Reducing Board Size Referendum > > "Should the board size be reduced from its current 11 directors to 7 > directors?" The way I always thought of the purpose of the referendum was that it should be possible - in fact it is a necessity - that others beyond the official board be involved in organising. The number of people on the board seems to be a symptom of the fact that it is difficult to get people involved and helping out with the foundation any other way. > The board is at the moment of the opinion that a GNOME Board of 7 > persons should normally work and be enough, provided that we have a > staff person who can take part of the work load. Being officially on the Gnome Foundation board is a nice way to provide more recognition for the people who work on behalf of Gnome but is it really necessary to give official titles to get people to help out in this way? (Perhaps it is, I'm assuming nothing at this point and I certainly dont want to discourage those who work to help keep the Gnome Foudnatoin organised.) Would a board of 15 people get huge amounts of work done, or would it hamper decision making? Could there be some kind of a secondary board, or council or committee or whatever you want to call it with a more fluid membership formed from those actively helping at any given time, requiring only a nomination from the board? That might give the flexibility required and provide another way to recognise all the work being done on our behalf. > They are both happy and willing to join the board, but under the > condition that there is not severe objections from the GNOME Foundation > Members. The way the referendum was written it did leave it open for the board to reexpand later at their own discretion. If you are really convinced it will help I wont make an issue of it but there might be a better way and you could take successful referendum as encouragement to think about it a little further if this is the best way to organise the board in the long run. --=20 Alan From baris@teamforce.name.tr Mon Jun 5 13:07:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 383823B0007 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:07:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16437-06 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:07:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nerd.com.tr (nerd.com.tr [69.60.117.115]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 473403B038A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:07:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nerd.com.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D19D784E6A; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:10:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nerd.com.tr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (nerd.com.tr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00433-08; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:10:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (unknown [81.213.157.51]) by nerd.com.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id F10EC784E68; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:10:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Baris Cicek To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-FNyi3F0n+O+x6eo3x6Zz" Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:07:03 +0300 Message-Id: <1149527224.2470.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 (2.6.1-1.fc5.2) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at nerd.com.tr X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.239 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.360, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.239 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 17:07:18 -0000 --=-FNyi3F0n+O+x6eo3x6Zz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anne you better also send this mail to foundation-announce because every foundation member might not be subscribed here, but they do to foundation-announce. Also I wonder why Board need to enlarge its size, but instead asking for help outside the board. Like delegating some work to groups and just stay as a decision maker? As a side note, as far as I remember the biggest argument for reducing board size is because it was harder to decide with too much noise in board, which made being in decision maker position harder. Isn't it better to get over this problem first, which next year's or later year's boards would suffer again, instead of temporary solutions On Mon, 2006-06-05 at 15:42 +0200, Anne =C3=98stergaard wrote: > Hello all GNOME Foundation Members, >=20 > About the size of the present board. >=20 > The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the > board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germ=C3=A1n Po=C3=B3-Caama=C3= =B1o.=20 >=20 > Background: > Not so long ago we had a Reducing Board Size Referendum >=20 > "Should the board size be reduced from its current 11 directors to 7 > directors?" =20 >=20 > The Referendum Results: >=20 > 188 members voted for this referendum. The repartition of the votes is:=20 >=20 > yes (117 votes) > no (70 votes) > blank votes: 1 >=20 >=20 > The board is at the moment of the opinion that a GNOME Board of 7 > persons should normally work and be enough, provided that we have a > staff person who can take part of the work load. >=20 > Also at present a couple of the 7 board members have been given > additional responsibilities at their ordinary work places and/or > enlarged their family so they are pressed for time for "heavy" board > work. >=20 > Since the board has not yet hired anybody (we are in the process of > doing so), the board would suggest to you that for the remaining of this > year, we ask Behdad Esfahbod and Germ=C3=A1n Po=C3=B3-Caama=C3=B1o to joi= n the board. >=20 > They are both happy and willing to join the board, but under the > condition that there is not severe objections from the GNOME Foundation > Members. >=20 > I think that I need not tell you, that the two candidates in question > are highly respected for their long time great contributions to the > GNOME project and the GNOME community spirit. >=20 > Being responsible for having proposed this temporary compromise > solution, I naturally hope for your blessings. >=20 > Please react within 10 days if you have problems with enlarging the > board by inviting Behdad Esfahbod and Germ=C3=A1n Po=C3=B3-Caama=C3=B1o t= o join the > GNOME Board of Directors for the rest of 2006. >=20 >=20 > Best wishes >=20 > Anne >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > foundation-list mailing list > foundation-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list --=-FNyi3F0n+O+x6eo3x6Zz Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEhGS362fLHU++kcURAuOQAKDH1XkUp5jJbQgoPaZQ7rYkLmIb8QCgy4nV 2JPZyV+MSHCcejDwfcLG4Ao= =B3LD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-FNyi3F0n+O+x6eo3x6Zz-- From ted@leary.csoft.net Mon Jun 5 13:09:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0E4F3B050E for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:09:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16633-04 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:08:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail63.csoft.net (mail63.csoft.net [205.205.214.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A7A9B3B01A1 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:08:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 21562 invoked by uid 1373); 5 Jun 2006 17:08:55 -0000 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 12:08:55 -0500 (EST) From: ted@gould.cx X-X-Sender: ted@leary2.csoft.net To: Alan Horkan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.638 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_REAL_NAME=0.961] X-Spam-Score: -1.638 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 17:09:00 -0000 Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Alan Horkan wrote: > The way I always thought of the purpose of the referendum was that it > should be possible - in fact it is a necessity - that others beyond the > official board be involved in organising. The number of people on the > board seems to be a symptom of the fact that it is difficult to get people > involved and helping out with the foundation any other way. I agree with Alan on this (and if you read the Inkscape list, you know that Alan and I don't agree that much :) If these people want to help out, and there are tasks that the board wishes to assign to them, that'd be great. And, I would consider "did X for the board" a great plus on any candidacy statement for the next election. But, they can't be members of the board without an election. --Ted From domlachowicz@gmail.com Mon Jun 5 13:21:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D69E23B08A1 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:21:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17259-02 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:21:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.197]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 413FF3B006C for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:21:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so1207436wxd for ; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:21:23 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=QDbgo9tjZO3vERpfPc6acQItV9f5RiD/en/qTooxz0+9N7z/Wh3n9xA7QUGtyedsQWgL8ZsAdGcAjmkWhWahcnp9Q/bEnckByLEaDsr9CzOSRAUwv6913Dsiu0tpMcnIlF9SduUdcophPsryyANBrCdSJUPAo5jt0+Cb0JFYTNQ= Received: by 10.70.27.12 with SMTP id a12mr6287613wxa; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:21:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.116.12 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 10:21:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:21:23 -0400 From: "Dominic Lachowicz" To: "ted@gould.cx" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.717 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.606, BAYES_05=-1.11, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.717 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 17:21:28 -0000 > Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > > Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. It doesn't seem to be entirely arbitrary. The 3 "appointees" were the next 3 highest vote-getters in the 2005 elections. http://foundation.gnome.org/vote/results.php?election_id=2 > candidacy statement for the next election. But, they can't be members of > the board without an election. The Foundation's charter apparently says (in at least two places) that they can appoint members without an election: http://foundation.gnome.org/about/charter/ "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows, subject to approval by the board or referendum of the membership." "Between elections, board vacancies or new board slots shall be filled by appointment by the board of directors." The charter is, of course, amendable via referendum. I like all of the people appointed and appreciate that they were all the next highest vote-getters in the 2005 election. They'd do a great job on the board. But I must admit, it feels a little strange that a third of the foundation's board would be appointed if this were to pass. Would it be preferable if instead some of the work were farmed out to willing volunteers, rather than expanding the board's size? Why should we prefer the board's size to grow rather than taking this proposed alternative? Best, Dom -- Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums. From newren@gmail.com Mon Jun 5 13:22:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB4663B0921 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:22:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17203-06 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:22:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.199]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 376D33B026A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:22:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so1207646wxd for ; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:22:30 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=OsYHaW/07fQqwe80q4hzPlzWBWo0iKC1ms5AzFCgOL01x90L/CgrtB8FAvc/B7jdgfR4E5+bwA16yZhyEdTV7ZJZMtPxfOiTfS7edcdCBqilBZ76ZpgPPXn6BHsl5GCmsCEr8VTwpyKYXgP2m1GRgJqWswUUblAS0gYfATQBWww= Received: by 10.70.71.12 with SMTP id t12mr6302640wxa; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.7 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 10:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51419b2c0606051022u66212d1at72d1a175728953b8@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 11:22:29 -0600 From: "Elijah Newren" To: "ted@gould.cx" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.567 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.033, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.567 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 17:22:34 -0000 On 6/5/06, ted@gould.cx wrote: > > Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > > Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. It doesn't look at all arbitrary to me. Behdad and German ran for the board last year and are the highest two vote receivers who aren't on the board. > > On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Alan Horkan wrote: > > The way I always thought of the purpose of the referendum was that it > > should be possible - in fact it is a necessity - that others beyond the > > official board be involved in organising. The number of people on the > > board seems to be a symptom of the fact that it is difficult to get people > > involved and helping out with the foundation any other way. > > I agree with Alan on this (and if you read the Inkscape list, you know > that Alan and I don't agree that much :) If these people want to help > out, and there are tasks that the board wishes to assign to them, that'd > be great. And, I would consider "did X for the board" a great plus on any > candidacy statement for the next election. But, they can't be members of > the board without an election. There may be reasons to object to this, but I disagree with this reasoning. There was an election. Besides -- what about the case where Luis resigned just recently? Your reasoning would say that he can't be replaced. Is that really what you're suggesting? From vuntz@gnome.org Mon Jun 5 14:45:25 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B49783B0A30 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:45:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22597-04 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:45:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fennas.vuntz.net (fennas.vuntz.net [82.228.182.88]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BB153B097F for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:45:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from latronche.vuntz.net (latronche.vuntz.net [10.0.0.7]) by fennas.vuntz.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4233811267D for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 20:45:23 +0200 (CEST) From: Vincent Untz To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:47:22 +0200 Message-Id: <1149533242.30799.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.56 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.039, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.56 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 18:45:25 -0000 Le lundi 05 juin 2006 à 13:21 -0400, Dominic Lachowicz a écrit : > > candidacy statement for the next election. But, they can't be members of > > the board without an election. > > The Foundation's charter apparently says (in at least two places) that > they can appoint members without an election: > > http://foundation.gnome.org/about/charter/ > > "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows, > subject to approval by the board or referendum of the membership." > > "Between elections, board vacancies or new board slots shall be filled > by appointment by the board of directors." > > The charter is, of course, amendable via referendum. Thanks Dom. I guess it's a good occasion to remind people to read the Foundation charter, especially if they are members of the Foundation :-) Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. From aguelzow@taliesin.ca Mon Jun 5 15:06:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2890B3B03AD for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:06:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23796-04 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:06:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.mail.interbaun.com (smtp01.mail.interbaun.com [199.185.130.39]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74DDC3B026A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:06:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 20591 invoked by uid 502); 5 Jun 2006 19:06:31 -0000 Received: from 226.207-229-35-0.interbaun.com (207.229.35.226) by smtp01.mail.interbaun.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 19:06:31 -0000 From: "Andreas J. Guelzow" To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Taliesin Software Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:05:38 -0600 Message-Id: <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:06:34 -0000 On Mon, 2006-05-06 at 13:21 -0400, Dominic Lachowicz wrote: > > Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > > > > Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > > everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. > > It doesn't seem to be entirely arbitrary. The 3 "appointees" were the > next 3 highest vote-getters in the 2005 elections. In other words, they lost the election. > > http://foundation.gnome.org/vote/results.php?election_id=2 > > > candidacy statement for the next election. But, they can't be members of > > the board without an election. > > The Foundation's charter apparently says (in at least two places) that > they can appoint members without an election: > > http://foundation.gnome.org/about/charter/ > > "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows, > subject to approval by the board or referendum of the membership." > > "Between elections, board vacancies or new board slots shall be filled > by appointment by the board of directors." This is different from temporarily appointing 2 additional members. Of course the board can add new seats, but they will then be permanent until (again?) removed via a referendum. Andreas -- Andreas J. Guelzow Pyrenean Shepherds From anne@oestergaard.nu Mon Jun 5 15:18:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CB5D3B07BB for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:18:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24554-02 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:18:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero1.cybercity.dk (cicero1.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92A023B077A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:18:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id D758763EE23 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:18:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 837677502C0 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:18:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 26566 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 19:18:19 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 19:18:19 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Alan Horkan In-Reply-To: References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:18:18 +0200 Message-Id: <1149535098.4447.95.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.529 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.070, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.529 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:18:36 -0000 man, 05 06 2006 kl. 17:52 +0100, skrev Alan Horkan: > On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Anne [ISO-8859-1] stergaard wrote: > > > Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 15:42:04 +0200 > > From: "Anne [ISO-8859-1] stergaard" > > To: foundation-list@gnome.org > > Subject: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons > > > > Hello all GNOME Foundation Members, > > > > About the size of the present board. > > > > The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the > > board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño. > > > > Background: > > Not so long ago we had a Reducing Board Size Referendum > > > > "Should the board size be reduced from its current 11 directors to 7 > > directors?" > > The way I always thought of the purpose of the referendum was that it > should be possible - in fact it is a necessity - that others beyond the > official board be involved in organising. The number of people on the > board seems to be a symptom of the fact that it is difficult to get people > involved and helping out with the foundation any other way. > > > The board is at the moment of the opinion that a GNOME Board of 7 > > persons should normally work and be enough, provided that we have a > > staff person who can take part of the work load. > > Being officially on the Gnome Foundation board is a nice way to provide > more recognition for the people who work on behalf of Gnome but is it > really necessary to give official titles to get people to help out in this > way? (Perhaps it is, I'm assuming nothing at this point and I certainly > dont want to discourage those who work to help keep the Gnome Foudnatoin > organised.) > > Would a board of 15 people get huge amounts of work done, or would it > hamper decision making? > > Could there be some kind of a secondary board, or council or committee or > whatever you want to call it with a more fluid membership formed from > those actively helping at any given time, requiring only a nomination from > reallythe board? That might give the flexibility required and provide another > way to recognise all the work being done on our behalf. I really think this is a good idea. We need to be better at delegating. But we get stuck when we talk about how it should be done in practice. However we have asked different members of our community for help and gotten it at several occasions, so I guess we are learning. Having a list of persons who has got time and energy to help prepare a case and make a recommendation to the board should make it so much easier for the board. I am all for that we let foundation members and even not yet foundation members sign up om a helpers Wiki page telling a little about which interests they have, how long they have been involved in the GNOME project, which kind of things they have helped out with before etc. But until we have found a proper form for how we delegate tasks I am afraid that we are short of heads and hands. Lets have an informal BoF at GUADEC on good delegation practice in GNOME. I am all for it. Anne From anne@oestergaard.nu Mon Jun 5 15:22:14 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80BEC3B038A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:22:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24742-05 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:22:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero1.cybercity.dk (cicero1.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 542403B00BE for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:22:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user3.cybercity.dk (user3.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.36]) by cicero1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36AC663E93E for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:22:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user3.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id E635293DC2 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:22:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 26602 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 19:22:10 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 19:22:10 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: ted@gould.cx In-Reply-To: References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:22:09 +0200 Message-Id: <1149535330.4447.101.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.53 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.069, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.53 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:22:14 -0000 man, 05 06 2006 kl. 12:08 -0500, skrev ted@gould.cx: > Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > > Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. OK these two persons were next on the list of persons who nearly made it to the board.(Only a few votes difference to those getting elected.) So it was not a random choice. Anne From ted@leary.csoft.net Mon Jun 5 15:35:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BF673B0947 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:35:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25691-08 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:35:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail63.csoft.net (mail63.csoft.net [205.205.214.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id ECAFE3B0668 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:35:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 4151 invoked by uid 1373); 5 Jun 2006 19:35:50 -0000 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:35:50 -0500 (EST) From: ted@gould.cx X-X-Sender: ted@leary2.csoft.net To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149535330.4447.101.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149535330.4447.101.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-2040552725-1149536150=:22433" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.638 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_REAL_NAME=0.961] X-Spam-Score: -1.638 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:35:57 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-2040552725-1149536150=:22433 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Anne =D8stergaard wrote: > man, 05 06 2006 kl. 12:08 -0500, skrev ted@gould.cx: >> Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) >> >> Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect >> everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. > > OK these two persons were next on the list of persons who nearly made it > to the board.(Only a few votes difference to those getting elected.) > > So it was not a random choice. Sorry, I didn't take the time to look at who you were suggesting. I still= =20 don't believe that the board should be adding members to itself without an= =20 election, whether they can or not. I think actions like that leave too=20 much room for cronyism in the future. As for getting people involved, perhaps posting to this list? I realize=20 it's hard to find tasks that someone might be able to pick up and do, but= =20 it is usually worthwhile in the end. Perhaps a "TODO" list on=20 live.gnome.org of things that the board is planning on doing, and will do,= =20 but if someone wants to beat them to it :) Perhaps something in the=20 meeting minutes? =09=09--Ted --0-2040552725-1149536150=:22433-- From anne@oestergaard.nu Mon Jun 5 15:40:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ADBC3B099D for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:40:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25830-05 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:40:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 986293B0947 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:40:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user4.cybercity.dk (user4.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.50]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 606272453B1 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:40:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user4.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 2483750391 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:40:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 26767 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 19:39:59 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 19:39:59 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Baris Cicek In-Reply-To: <1149527224.2470.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149527224.2470.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:39:59 +0200 Message-Id: <1149536399.4447.120.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.531 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.068, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.531 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:40:12 -0000 man, 05 06 2006 kl. 20:07 +0300, skrev Baris Cicek: > Anne you better also send this mail to foundation-announce because every > foundation member might not be subscribed here, but they do to > foundation-announce. I will do so. > Also I wonder why Board need to enlarge its size, but instead asking for > help outside the board. Like delegating some work to groups and just > stay as a decision maker? This is the way I would like to se things being delegated. I quite old and well proven way of doing it. > As a side note, as far as I remember the biggest argument for reducing > board size is because it was harder to decide with too much noise in > board, which made being in decision maker position harder. Isn't it > better to get over this problem first, which next year's or later year's > boards would suffer again, instead of temporary solutions We are in reality down to 5+ persons at times and this is not enough at the moment. We are getting the the Advisory Board more involved and the technical/or embedded devices group started so we are quite busy. If we do not get two more persons on the board, I think that we risk that the busy persons step down, and we will get the good new persons on board any way, but at the risk of loosing continuity and experience. It takes a little while before completely new board members get the feeling of how things are being done and which things must be taken care of first to get the business running. ( I am here talking of book keeping, accounting and financial insight and overview.) Anne From anne@oestergaard.nu Mon Jun 5 15:50:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 439B73B0952 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:50:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26247-10 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:50:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero1.cybercity.dk (cicero1.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63D3A3B058A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:50:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CDAC63F924 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:50:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id B2E0F750057 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:50:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 26992 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 19:50:38 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 19:50:38 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: ted@gould.cx In-Reply-To: References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149535330.4447.101.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:50:37 +0200 Message-Id: <1149537038.4447.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.531 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.068, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.531 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:50:49 -0000 man, 05 06 2006 kl. 14:35 -0500, skrev ted@gould.cx: > On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Anne stergaard wrote: > > man, 05 06 2006 kl. 12:08 -0500, skrev ted@gould.cx: > >> Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > >> > >> Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > >> everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. > > > > OK these two persons were next on the list of persons who nearly made it > > to the board.(Only a few votes difference to those getting elected.) > > > > So it was not a random choice. > > Sorry, I didn't take the time to look at who you were suggesting. I still > don't believe that the board should be adding members to itself without an > election, whether they can or not. I think actions like that leave too > much room for cronyism in the future. The problem is that it sometimes takes as long time to describe the tasks as simply doing them yourself. Also you have to check if people are doing what they said they would do and within reasonable time. You need to know people better in order to know if they just say yes and then forget all about it or they deliver if they have said they will. May be we should find a people and tasks manager. But this being said we all agree on the board that we shall delegate more and more tasks to the community because this is real important for the growth and continuity of our community. We are trying, Ted. Anne From dneary@free.fr Mon Jun 5 15:54:31 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C7B23B0011 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:54:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26894-05 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:54:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2-g19.free.fr (smtp2-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.28]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B8083B0012 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:54:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp2-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E624731A6; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:54:27 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:54:02 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060521) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Andreas J. Guelzow" References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> In-Reply-To: <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:54:31 -0000 Hi Andrew, Andreas J. Guelzow wrote: > On Mon, 2006-05-06 at 13:21 -0400, Dominic Lachowicz wrote: >> "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows, >> subject to approval by the board or referendum of the membership." >> >> "Between elections, board vacancies or new board slots shall be filled >> by appointment by the board of directors." > > This is different from temporarily appointing 2 additional members. Of > course the board can add new seats, but they will then be permanent > until (again?) removed via a referendum. No - the referendum last year was non-binding (as mentioned afterwards by Dom, I think). The board has the power to decide before the elections each year how many seats will be available. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From aguelzow@taliesin.ca Mon Jun 5 16:08:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DF1E3B0011 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:08:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27618-01 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:07:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp02.mail.interbaun.com (smtp02auth.mail.interbaun.com [199.185.130.52]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 19A263B0129 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:07:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 29676 invoked by uid 502); 5 Jun 2006 20:01:14 -0000 Received: from 226.207-229-35-0.interbaun.com (207.229.35.226) by smtp02.mail.interbaun.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 20:01:14 -0000 From: "Andreas J. Guelzow" To: Gnome Foundation In-Reply-To: <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Taliesin Software Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 14:00:22 -0600 Message-Id: <1149537622.6058.61.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:08:00 -0000 On Mon, 2006-05-06 at 21:54 +0200, David Neary wrote: > Hi Andrew, > > Andreas J. Guelzow wrote: > > On Mon, 2006-05-06 at 13:21 -0400, Dominic Lachowicz wrote: > >> "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows, > >> subject to approval by the board or referendum of the membership." > >> > >> "Between elections, board vacancies or new board slots shall be filled > >> by appointment by the board of directors." > > > > This is different from temporarily appointing 2 additional members. Of > > course the board can add new seats, but they will then be permanent > > until (again?) removed via a referendum. > > No - the referendum last year was non-binding (as mentioned afterwards > by Dom, I think). The board has the power to decide before the elections > each year how many seats will be available. So, the board can decide how many people it wants to have elected and then it can add an arbitrary number of additional members after the election. Why do we have elections in the first place? Of course "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows". Has trhe project really grown that significantly since the last election? Andreas From dneary@free.fr Mon Jun 5 16:09:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 971FF3B01AE for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:09:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27618-09 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:09:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp5-g19.free.fr (smtp5-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.35]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 864F73B002C for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:09:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp5-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB3212774B; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 22:09:28 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <44848F5A.3090300@free.fr> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 22:08:58 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060521) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ted@gould.cx References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149535330.4447.101.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:09:33 -0000 Hi, ted@gould.cx wrote: > As for getting people involved, perhaps posting to this list? I realize > it's hard to find tasks that someone might be able to pick up and do, > but it is usually worthwhile in the end. Perhaps a "TODO" list on > live.gnome.org of things that the board is planning on doing, and will > do, but if someone wants to beat them to it :) Perhaps something in the > meeting minutes? This point has come up a couple of times. Getting people onto the board (or at least onto board-list and on the conference calls) is useful, because a fair amount of what the board isn't doing well this year (primarily because we don't have an employee, it has to be said) is private, or requires a mandate. Things like lodging cheques or withdrawing money from the bank account, dealing with our accountant to get official forms or information on the foundation, invoicing companies for money, being aware of donations coming in and thanking donors (who potentially want to stay anonymous), things like that. There are many things that we could perhaps do more out in the open, and filtering our agendas and minutes better into public/private parts (as we started to do at the beginning of the year), posting them in a more regular and timely manner, and so on. All of those tasks take time, along with all of the other slack we've been picking up, and (as Anne pointed out) the changes in the personal and work lives of a few board members, distribution releases, births, job changes, travel with work and so on. But all the stuff that we're struggling with at the moment is kind of private stuff - which means having some kind of non-public inner circle of people - perhaps not on the board, but at least in some way engaged to respect board secrecy. Anything that we have been able to do in public (or avoid doing by delegating), we've been mostly doing. For what it's worth, I think most of our problems will go away once we have an employee, but back in October, I said that one reason why we shouldn't be afraid to reduce the number was because we would always have the possibility to increase it again if we realised we had made a mistake. I definitely thought that a few months ago, but when we had Zana as our admin, she not only caught up with the backlog, we had the impression that things were really moving forward. At the moment, we don't have 7 active, regularly answering their board mail board members. I think 6 active board members is probably enough to hold down the fort, if no important functions are missing, but we're more likely to have 6 or 7 active out of 9 than out of 7. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From dneary@free.fr Mon Jun 5 16:15:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40E3C3B002C for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:15:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28035-03 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:15:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1-g19.free.fr (smtp1-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.27]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 002103B0208 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:15:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp1-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2337A9AC97; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 22:14:59 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <448490A4.5070904@free.fr> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 22:14:28 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060521) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Andreas J. Guelzow" References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> <1149537622.6058.61.camel@localhost> In-Reply-To: <1149537622.6058.61.camel@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Gnome Foundation Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:15:03 -0000 Hi, Andreas J. Guelzow wrote: > So, the board can decide how many people it wants to have elected and > then it can add an arbitrary number of additional members after the > election. Why do we have elections in the first place? The board must have at least 7 people. Aside from that, your summary is correct. But then, we're supposed to trust our board members at election time - that's why we vote for them, isn't it? :) Seriously - the board will not abuse this, but co-opting members onto the board to handle workload is a common occurrence - as is setting up empowered sub-committees. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From newren@gmail.com Mon Jun 5 16:29:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6877C3B03EA for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:29:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29362-06 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.205]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FB293B06D7 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so1248330wxd for ; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:29:14 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=c0DI0gAqSXwHBKoFxTl2TtOdhohkR7RE11uhZPi32bUo3Db8eVQxiyFtijAYvj0mM1N8hFRyyMEejGtQxltidUZuBOYGPMXcRg7kfKRC/4YgSX/MXW3+uh+5JHFjOra8K4QYb3i+t2rdSQLUefDuiKH0Z/2TJU4kKbAWbjBlig8= Received: by 10.70.113.20 with SMTP id l20mr6543579wxc; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.7 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51419b2c0606051329p7c73e3a2p94a15b77e9cd5585@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:29:11 -0600 From: "Elijah Newren" To: "David Neary" In-Reply-To: <448490A4.5070904@free.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> <1149537622.6058.61.camel@localhost> <448490A4.5070904@free.fr> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.569 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.031, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.569 X-Spam-Level: Cc: "Andreas J. Guelzow" , Gnome Foundation Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:29:18 -0000 On 6/5/06, David Neary wrote: > > Hi, > > Andreas J. Guelzow wrote: > > So, the board can decide how many people it wants to have elected and > > then it can add an arbitrary number of additional members after the > > election. Why do we have elections in the first place? > > The board must have at least 7 people. Aside from that, your summary is > correct. But then, we're supposed to trust our board members at election > time - that's why we vote for them, isn't it? :) > > Seriously - the board will not abuse this, but co-opting members onto > the board to handle workload is a common occurrence - as is setting up > empowered sub-committees. Would the board lose anything by creating an empowered sub-committee here specifically consisting of Behdad and German? That would seem to quell most of the problems people have voiced against the proposal, and perhaps still allow all the same stuff to get done. I'm thinking here of the analogy to the release team -- the board formed the release-team (and still has oversight of it, if necessary), yet release-team members (assuming they are not also board members) have no board powers other than the release-team tasks they have been delegated to handle. I could be wrong, but judging from the comments so far, I believe that handles the delegation many people want to see. From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 5 18:42:02 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13AC73B03A0 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 18:42:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06160-02 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 18:42:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75B993B039F for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 18:42:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k55Mfwkk003546 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:41:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J0E00701RZ13Q@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for foundation-list@gnome.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 23:41:58 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-116-52.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.116.52]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J0E00E5MSDY03@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 23:41:58 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 00:08:39 +0100 From: Bill Haneman In-reply-to: <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> To: David Neary Message-id: <1149548919.12099.8.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: Cc: "Andreas J. Guelzow" , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 22:42:02 -0000 On Mon, 2006-06-05 at 20:54, David Neary wrote: > Hi Andrew,... > No - the referendum last year was non-binding (as mentioned afterwards > by Dom, I think). The board has the power to decide before the elections > each year how many seats will be available. Having only recently had a referendum on this (or at least a closely related issue, e.g. the size of the Board), I think that if the Board wants to retain the goodwill and trust of the electorate it should abide by the referendum results. A key argument in favor of the "reduce the size of the Board" referendum was that it would be accompanied by expanded delegation and the formation of subcommittees/action groups etc. to which tasks would be delegated by the Board. Let's do it! Bill > Cheers, > Dave. > > -- > Dave Neary > bolsh@gimp.org > Lyon, France > _______________________________________________ > foundation-list mailing list > foundation-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list From Glynn.Foster@Sun.COM Mon Jun 5 23:20:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A19F3B00AE for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 23:20:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19367-02 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 23:20:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 128553B00A2 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 23:20:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-06.sun.com (d1-emea-06.sun.com [192.18.2.116] (may be forged)) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k563Jxnp029303 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:19:59 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-06.sun.com by d1-emea-06.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0F0060154EH200@d1-emea-06.sun.com> (original mail from Glynn.Foster@Sun.COM) for foundation-list@gnome.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 04:19:59 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.18.42.16] by d1-emea-06.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0F004ED595ZZ20@d1-emea-06.sun.com>; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 04:19:58 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 15:23:21 +1200 From: Glynn Foster In-reply-to: <448490A4.5070904@free.fr> Sender: Glynn.Foster@Sun.COM To: David Neary Message-id: <4484F529.9010505@sun.com> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> <1149537622.6058.61.camel@localhost> <448490A4.5070904@free.fr> User-Agent: Mail/News 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060515) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.596 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.002, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.596 X-Spam-Level: Cc: "Andreas J. Guelzow" , Gnome Foundation Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 03:20:07 -0000 Hi, David Neary wrote: > Hi, > > Andreas J. Guelzow wrote: >> So, the board can decide how many people it wants to have elected and >> then it can add an arbitrary number of additional members after the >> election. Why do we have elections in the first place? > > The board must have at least 7 people. Aside from that, your summary is > correct. But then, we're supposed to trust our board members at election > time - that's why we vote for them, isn't it? :) > > Seriously - the board will not abuse this, but co-opting members onto > the board to handle workload is a common occurrence - as is setting up > empowered sub-committees. Will the new members have full voting rights on the board? I'm not sure I really mind either way given my previous experiences on the board, but I think we need to be careful about this since we're setting a precedent here. Glynn From james.henstridge@gmail.com Tue Jun 6 00:48:09 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 999093B007A for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 00:48:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22963-06 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 00:48:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.197]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE4EB3B0012 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 00:48:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so1343934wxd for ; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:48:07 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=s6W90tAFFMqbeF1zOA6cMOwf/4VT54VrjJ+T2QKnHBmd3wsR7fZ7AkQ83efEHduxKZMd4Wjbyv4ZlmUgVwusdTpfYGO4/1uQGQ9QGvp79F5CwIfJVkentnyjFKl4FNde0NN0q2W1cJ2Qogm71qV/5PMIAgV93neIPJUDMtvGjzc= Received: by 10.70.109.7 with SMTP id h7mr7003673wxc; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.60.15 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:48:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 12:48:06 +0800 From: "James Henstridge" Sender: james.henstridge@gmail.com To: "Dominic Lachowicz" In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 62eb23e7e8bd3462 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.582 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.582 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org, "ted@gould.cx" Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 04:48:09 -0000 On 06/06/06, Dominic Lachowicz wrote: > > Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > > > > Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > > everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. > > It doesn't seem to be entirely arbitrary. The 3 "appointees" were the > next 3 highest vote-getters in the 2005 elections. > > http://foundation.gnome.org/vote/results.php?election_id=2 Of course, the results of the elections may have been quite different if Luis didn't stand, and each member had two more votes to cover the additional seats. If this sort of thing is likely to happen again, it might be worth switching to a preferential voting system where we'd have all the information to see what the result would be if a candidate was removed or the number of seats increased. Dispite this, I am sure that Behdad and German would make good additions to the board. James. From jdub@waugh.id.au Tue Jun 6 01:12:02 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9CA63B0092 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:12:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24144-02 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:12:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69B643B0728 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:12:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (ppp121-112.static.internode.on.net [150.101.121.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F89C3C382 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:11:59 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 888F93F9C; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:11:54 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:11:54 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: Reply-By: Fri Jun 9 15:10:21 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 15:10:21 up 4 days, 15:02, 11 users, load average: 0.08, 0.08, 0.01 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.017, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 05:12:02 -0000 > But, they can't be members of the board without an election. Just want to point out that, yes, they can be - please read the Foundation by-laws. The board can change the size of the board at will, and nominate members at will. The referendum process was not done because it was necessary, it was done to understand the will of the membership (and delegate the decision to them). - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ "You gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, and know when to run." - Kenny Rogers, The Gambler From jdub@waugh.id.au Tue Jun 6 01:40:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8905F3B0018 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:40:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25374-02 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:40:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 428533B000D for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:40:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (ppp121-112.static.internode.on.net [150.101.121.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 571303C257 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:40:50 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 797943F9C; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:40:45 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:40:45 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060606054045.GM5138@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Reply-By: Fri Jun 9 15:13:53 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 15:13:53 up 4 days, 15:05, 11 users, load average: 0.09, 0.08, 0.02 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.017, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 05:40:54 -0000 > The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the > board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño. My personal opinion on this, as stated to the board: * We made our bed with the one-two-punch combination of change in board size and change in number of employees (currently zero). * Given that we delegated the decision regarding board size to the members and executed that change, it would be inappropriate only six or so months down the track to change it again. * The biggest problem right now (as I see it) is lack of board member time on the ground in Boston. We can distribute and delegate almost everything else effectively. This is impacting administration tasks and employment plans. * We are attempting to do big things without the benefit of having a face to face meeting. Every board so far has been more effective post-GUADEC, after they've had the opportunity to sit down, grind through the issues with a lot of social bandwidth and look each other up and down a bit. It really helps develop shared vision, shared values and shared trust in a way that mail, phone and IRC can't. - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ "The ability to procrastinate is what separates us from the machines." - Chris Gregory, Desktop Magazine From veillard@redhat.com Tue Jun 6 04:58:29 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E3D33B00ED for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25831-09 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [66.187.233.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D1023B00CB for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k568wKkC013649 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:20 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (devserv.devel.redhat.com [172.16.58.1]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k568wKR7017325 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:20 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k568wK9S021047 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:20 -0400 Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11/Submit) id k568wKOU021040 for foundation-list@gnome.org; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:20 -0400 Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:19 -0400 From: Daniel Veillard To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.367 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.003, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, TW_BX=0.077, TW_IB=0.077, TW_PM=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.367 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 08:58:29 -0000 On Tue, Jun 06, 2006 at 03:11:54PM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > > But, they can't be members of the board without an election. > > Just want to point out that, yes, they can be - please read the Foundation > by-laws. The board can change the size of the board at will, and nominate > members at will. Which is clearly a hole in the democratic process, the right thing to do would be to fix the bylaws, not jump on the loophole as a justification. > The referendum process was not done because it was necessary, it was done to > understand the will of the membership (and delegate the decision to them). And to stay in the spirit of that process you should have avoided this last step. Honnestly this look very weird from the outside, the board looks like contradicting itself on every occasion, provides no information about the day to day business (or I missed the minutes since the bunch posted for March), and the only thing which justify not working by delegation is that most of the operation need to be done in secrecy. That's honnestly not the kind of board process we expected when the bylaws were written, Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat http://redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Tue Jun 6 05:06:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46C313B09F1 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 05:06:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27265-04 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 05:06:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8E9D23B0A35 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 05:06:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 26140 invoked by uid 0); 6 Jun 2006 09:06:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.34]) (83.42.200.49) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 09:06:03 +0000 From: Quim Gil To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-W8w3n7YDvxZf85v0s8N9" Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 11:06:02 +0200 Message-Id: <1149584763.5220.69.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.083 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.439, BAYES_00=-2.599, TW_JR=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.083 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 09:06:34 -0000 --=-W8w3n7YDvxZf85v0s8N9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El dl 05 de 06 del 2006 a les 15:42 +0200, en/na Anne =C3=98stergaard va escriure: > The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the > board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germ=C3=A1n Po=C3=B3-Caama=C3= =B1o.=20 I wasn't in the board when this issue was discussed, and as a new board board I'm unsure what should I do now if I disagree. Transparency is always a good path, I guess.=20 - Consequent with the past Increasing now the board size seems inappropriate after the referendum discussions and result and without having made an extended use of asking explicitly for help and delegating within the GNOME community. - Size is not the problem We seem to agree that the problem is not the size of the board but the current circumstances that make many board members have less time than expected. If size is not the problem, the enlargement is probably not the solution. It's like having unsatisfactory sexual live and going to the doctor to enlarge your breast or your penis. At the beginning it might look like a change and a progress, but the root of the problem is still there, and possibly larger now. - Delegating and collaborating with people out of the board There was a lot of discussion about the few time required to be a good board member, let things happen, stay out of the way... We simply need to put in practice all that. For instance, invite someone to pick the Boston Yellow Pages, make some calls and come up with 3 companies we could hire for our accountancy and representation. Delegations like this might originate some crisis situations but since we are already in a crisis situation... what can we loose? And what can we learn. Adding 2 people to the board might be methadone to keep the problem of not sharing and delegating with less pain. - Too busy to delegate and hire We know the paradox of not having time to delegate or hire, making an overwhelming situation deeper. A solution is to stop the machine consciously (many times is already stopped, unconsciously) and concentrate in delegating. An intermediate option is simply do less things or not letting new tasks start before the delegation/hiring problem is solved. We missed something because of this? Yes, but how many thing are we missing by not delegating/hiring. - The quest of finding the magic full time profile =20 No wonder we didn't find the magic profile: a yin accountant & administrator + a yang fundraiser + based in Boston + competent and available + of course familiar with free software and GNOME (discussed at http://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/2006-April/msg00023.html ). = It is probably better and easier to hire the services of a mercenary busine= ss representation based in Boston + hiring one or more part time people we = know and trust, based wherever and able to travel when it's needed.=20 - Boston (Massachusetts, USA) It is a danger to have a board elected with candidates from everywhere that needs to have at least one member in a specific city: Boston. What if jrb wasn't elected, didn't want to renew or decides to leave some day? This is per se a reason to hire the services of a company (something theoretically more stable than an individual) and visit them every three months, either picking the Boston metro or a flight.=20 - Conclusion The board is overwhelmed and needs help. The fact that the board didn't share the discussion since the earliest stage but came up with a pre-conclusion is, I think, already a symptom of how overwhelmed the board members are and how far we all still are from opening the board and start sharing and delegating with the GNOME community. Many tasks the board can't delegate easily are related to services that can be hired. Let's concentrate on that, while we review publicly the list of priorities and see who can help on what inside / outside the board. Of course nothing of this has to do with the capabilities of Behdad and Germ=C3=A1n, who could be without doubt good board members. It has not to d= o either with the fact that I joined the board as a first patch for this problem. I had these opinions months ago, when I couldn't imagine I would join the board during this year. --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-W8w3n7YDvxZf85v0s8N9 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEhUV6BEzHYk6x634RAlOGAJ468PjA5ogEPfJt4Syb7QDks2mQzACcD/Dt 7SRSwIcbyQMxQ9z9jCLmlLE= =96/Y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-W8w3n7YDvxZf85v0s8N9-- From dneary@free.fr Tue Jun 6 06:16:02 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACD933B0A9E for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 06:16:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06395-09 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 06:16:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp6.wanadoo.fr (smtp6.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.25]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5360F3B0ACF for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 06:15:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf0606.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 398661C00282; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 12:15:12 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060606101512236.398661C00282@mwinf0606.orange.fr Message-ID: <448555B5.5030106@free.fr> Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:15:17 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Quim Gil References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149584763.5220.69.camel@localhost> In-Reply-To: <1149584763.5220.69.camel@localhost> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.54 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, TW_JR=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.54 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 10:16:03 -0000 Hi, Quim Gil wrote: > El dl 05 de 06 del 2006 a les 15:42 +0200, en/na Anne Østergaard va > escriure: > >> The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the >> board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño. > > I wasn't in the board when this issue was discussed, and as a new board > board I'm unsure what should I do now if I disagree. Transparency is > always a good path, I guess. Yes - just disagree. There is/was not unanimity on this point. As Jeff's said, he's against changing. Luis was also. I was the first one to propose increasing the board size in February when we were having trouble coping, but am now unsure, and was absent from the board meeting where it was discussed. > - Boston (Massachusetts, USA) > > It is a danger to have a board elected with candidates from everywhere > that needs to have at least one member in a specific city: Boston. What > if jrb wasn't elected, didn't want to renew or decides to leave some > day? This is per se a reason to hire the services of a company > (something theoretically more stable than an individual) and visit them > every three months, either picking the Boston metro or a flight. I'm unsure what the consequences would be for the foundation if none of the board was in or from the US. I'm not sure there would be any. The insistence on a Boston rep is more convenience than necessity - everyone knows how much more quickly things can go when you need something off someone, and you drop by to meet them face to face. Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From jdub@waugh.id.au Tue Jun 6 06:33:53 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE7743B00CF for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 06:33:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09584-02 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 06:33:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE51F3B0084 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 06:33:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (ppp121-112.static.internode.on.net [150.101.121.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9F223D876 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 20:33:50 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0FA6D3F9C; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 20:33:45 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 20:33:45 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> Reply-By: Fri Jun 9 20:19:56 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 20:19:57 up 4 days, 20:11, 10 users, load average: 0.04, 0.10, 0.03 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.017, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 10:33:53 -0000 > > Just want to point out that, yes, they can be - please read the > > Foundation by-laws. The board can change the size of the board at will, > > and nominate members at will. > > Which is clearly a hole in the democratic process, the right thing to do > would be to fix the bylaws, not jump on the loophole as a justification. Daniel, you misunderstand - I'm not here to justify the loophole, as I do not agree with the proposal in the first place! :-) There are a bunch of things I think we could fix in the bylaws (but I may feel that way simply because they are substantially different from the law and practices that I am used to in Australia). I do think the ability for the board to redefine its size at will is not appropriate. That said, the previous decision to reduce the board to seven members was discussed on the list and delegated to the membership - fully transparent. The board *absolutely* needs the ability to nominate members when a position is vacant. It should not require an election process to execute that - if the (elected) board is not trusted to fill vacant positions, then we have much bigger problems. Considering the current state of affairs, I think it's wholly appropriate that the board is nominating Quim Gil (next in line from previous election results) to fill the position left vacant by Luis' resignation, but I don't believe it's appropriate or necessary for the board to increase the number of directors (with or without referendum, but to answer your charges, mostly without) at this stage. > and the only thing which justify not working by delegation is that most of > the operation need to be done in secrecy. I don't believe anyone has cited 'secrecy', though the word 'private' has come up. Ultimately the workings and decision of the board is not secret at all, but there are activities that require a certain amount of privacy or sensitivity. The process of dealing with employees, and the handling of the accounts (handling, not reporting) are good examples. I don't think this is even remotely controversial - anyone who has participated in the running of a non-profit organisation (including you, Daniel) would be well aware of this kind of balancing. If the board is not appropriately reporting its activities, then any member should feel absolutely comfortable to ask questions and make demands. But I would ask that those questions and demands be specific and reasonable. :-) - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ "It's never been, 'We're doing this for the good of society.' It's always been us taking an intellectual pride in putting out a good product - and making money. If putting a computer on every desktop and in every home didn't make money, we wouldn't do it." - Microserfs From veillard@redhat.com Tue Jun 6 07:33:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 352943B00E0 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16106-09 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [66.187.233.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA3A63B00B4 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k56BXoEq003691 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:50 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (devserv.devel.redhat.com [172.16.58.1]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k56BXonQ013466 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:50 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k56BXo7G005351 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:50 -0400 Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11/Submit) id k56BXnfY005349 for foundation-list@gnome.org; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:49 -0400 Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:49 -0400 From: Daniel Veillard To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060606113349.GW16734@redhat.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.367 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.003, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, TW_BX=0.077, TW_IB=0.077, TW_PM=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.367 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 11:33:52 -0000 On Tue, Jun 06, 2006 at 08:33:45PM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > Considering the current state of affairs, I think it's wholly appropriate > that the board is nominating Quim Gil (next in line from previous election > results) to fill the position left vacant by Luis' resignation, but I don't yes, agreed, it's defining a new practice, but this sounds sane as long as that person is still okay with this. > believe it's appropriate or necessary for the board to increase the number > of directors (with or without referendum, but to answer your charges, mostly > without) at this stage. I can't juge on the 'necessary', but I think it's inappropriate too. > > and the only thing which justify not working by delegation is that most of > > the operation need to be done in secrecy. > > I don't believe anyone has cited 'secrecy', though the word 'private' has > come up. Ultimately the workings and decision of the board is not secret at > all, but there are activities that require a certain amount of privacy or > sensitivity. The process of dealing with employees, and the handling of the > accounts (handling, not reporting) are good examples. I don't think this is > even remotely controversial - anyone who has participated in the running of > a non-profit organisation (including you, Daniel) would be well aware of > this kind of balancing. To have balance one need one opposite side, a perceived one. Sure some details can't be shared, as you know I'm well aware of that, BUT I also always promoted being as public as possible with issues. Currently the board work is opaque, which would be fine if the few signals emitted were good, but 'we are overhelmed we need to reverse to some extend a voted decision' is not a good signal. > If the board is not appropriately reporting its activities, then any member The board is not reporting its activities in a timely fashion. > should feel absolutely comfortable to ask questions and make demands. But I > would ask that those questions and demands be specific and reasonable. :-) Okay, what happen at the board meetings since March, time of last published minutes I could find. I assume it's reasonable request to at least know if you are meeting, and what are the problems/questions you are facing with the details you can share. It then helps getting a sense of how much work need to be done you can't cope with and hence how necessary increasing the board size again really is. I hope my reaction can be understood, and my request not unreasonnable, but really that request should not need to be done, this should be normal process, Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat http://redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From dneary@free.fr Tue Jun 6 08:04:29 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5E283B0141 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:04:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19256-08 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:04:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp9.wanadoo.fr (smtp9.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D9443B008B for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:04:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf0904.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 495E2240019C; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:04:26 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060606120426300.495E2240019C@mwinf0904.orange.fr Message-ID: <44856F50.4000402@free.fr> Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 14:04:32 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: veillard@redhat.com References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606113349.GW16734@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: <20060606113349.GW16734@redhat.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Board meetings since March (was: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:04:30 -0000 Hi, Daniel Veillard wrote: > Okay, what happen at the board meetings since March, time of last published > minutes I could find. I assume it's reasonable request to at least know if > you are meeting, and what are the problems/questions you are facing with > the details you can share. It then helps getting a sense of how much work > need to be done you can't cope with and hence how necessary increasing the > board size again really is. We met on the following dates since the beginning of March: March 1st (minutes sent to foundation-list) March 15th (minutes sent to foundation-list) March 22nd (minutes sent to foundation-list) April 5th April 26th May 17th We also had 2 advisory board meetings (but minutes from those have typically not gone to foundation-list): April 12th May 31st There was a scheduled meeting on the 10th of May which was canceled because of technical problems. The next board meeting is scheduled for tomorrow, June 7th. The minutes for the April 5th and May 17th meetings need to be sanitised for board private issues and sent to the list. We didn't have any phone call for the April 26th meeting, and so the only minutes we have are an IRC log, which again needs to be summarised and sanitised for board privacy issues. The agendas for all meetings should also be reviewed for privacy and confidentiality issues, and sent to the list. I've been sending the agendas to board-list 48 hours before the meeting for comments, and preparing a private/public agenda in the wiki and for the mailing list has proved more effort than I have available for that, and I must admit that it hasn't been a high priority. As an ex board member, you have read-only access to the board wiki pages - would you like to take on this task and help me out? Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From murrayc@murrayc.com Tue Jun 6 08:23:16 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 061193B0186 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:23:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20602-02 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:23:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail3.sd.dreamhost.com (webmail3.sd.dreamhost.com [64.111.100.15]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BC2E3B00B4 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:23:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.murrayc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by webmail3.sd.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E13A714179; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 05:23:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 194.138.18.132 (proxying for unknown) (SquirrelMail authenticated user murrayc@murrayc.com) by webmail.murrayc.com with HTTP; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:23:12 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <60481.194.138.18.132.1149596592.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> In-Reply-To: <44856F50.4000402@free.fr> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606113349.GW16734@redhat.com> <44856F50.4000402@free.fr> Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:23:12 +0200 (CEST) From: "Murray Cumming" To: "Dave Neary" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.548 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.051, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.548 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, veillard@redhat.com Subject: Re: Board meetings since March (was: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:23:16 -0000 > > Hi, > > Daniel Veillard wrote: >> Okay, what happen at the board meetings since March, time of last >> published >> minutes I could find. I assume it's reasonable request to at least know >> if >> you are meeting, and what are the problems/questions you are facing with >> the details you can share. It then helps getting a sense of how much >> work >> need to be done you can't cope with and hence how necessary increasing >> the >> board size again really is. > > We met on the following dates since the beginning of March: > > March 1st (minutes sent to foundation-list) > March 15th (minutes sent to foundation-list) > March 22nd (minutes sent to foundation-list) > April 5th > April 26th > May 17th It really makes life easier if these are added to the list here: http://live.gnome.org/FoundationBoardPublic#head-6903d3d78a8eb091678548773e79000fb5c10292 (Although it doesn't need to be a board member that does that. I blame me.) > We also had 2 advisory board meetings (but minutes from those have > typically not gone to foundation-list): > April 12th > May 31st > > There was a scheduled meeting on the 10th of May which was canceled > because of technical problems. The next board meeting is scheduled for > tomorrow, June 7th. > > The minutes for the April 5th and May 17th meetings need to be sanitised > for board private issues and sent to the list. We didn't have any phone > call for the April 26th meeting, and so the only minutes we have are an > IRC log, which again needs to be summarised and sanitised for board > privacy issues. The agendas for all meetings should also be reviewed for > privacy and confidentiality issues, and sent to the list. > > I've been sending the agendas to board-list 48 hours before the meeting > for comments, and preparing a private/public agenda in the wiki and for > the mailing list has proved more effort than I have available for that, > and I must admit that it hasn't been a high priority. > > As an ex board member, you have read-only access to the board wiki pages > - would you like to take on this task and help me out? I believe everyone has write access to the public pages. Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From veillard@redhat.com Tue Jun 6 08:59:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EE633B00CF for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22495-08 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [66.187.233.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50D123B00B9 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k56Cxdju004443; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:39 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (devserv.devel.redhat.com [172.16.58.1]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k56CxdoC031823; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:39 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k56Cxdrh011349; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:39 -0400 Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11/Submit) id k56Cxdaq011347; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:39 -0400 Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:39 -0400 From: Daniel Veillard To: Dave Neary Message-ID: <20060606125938.GX16734@redhat.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606113349.GW16734@redhat.com> <44856F50.4000402@free.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <44856F50.4000402@free.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.367 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.003, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, TW_BX=0.077, TW_IB=0.077, TW_PM=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.367 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Board meetings since March (was: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:59:45 -0000 On Tue, Jun 06, 2006 at 02:04:32PM +0200, Dave Neary wrote: > The minutes for the April 5th and May 17th meetings need to be sanitised > for board private issues and sent to the list. We didn't have any phone It takes 2 months ? News from 2 months ago are usually not that useful. > call for the April 26th meeting, and so the only minutes we have are an > IRC log, which again needs to be summarised and sanitised for board > privacy issues. The agendas for all meetings should also be reviewed for > privacy and confidentiality issues, and sent to the list. You don't need the agenda to be sent, if you send the minutes in a timely fashion, then people can react if you forgot something. > I've been sending the agendas to board-list 48 hours before the meeting That's nice, but board only, not public awareness, that should make writing minutes even easier. > for comments, and preparing a private/public agenda in the wiki and for > the mailing list has proved more effort than I have available for that, > and I must admit that it hasn't been a high priority. Stuff in the wiki has no persistance, contrary to mail archive, requires web access, and polling or page subscription to monitor state changes. > As an ex board member, you have read-only access to the board wiki pages > - would you like to take on this task and help me out? I don't have much time either, and I disagree with using the Wiki as the way to reach out the community. I think you're not in a very good position to state there isn't enough cycles to run those kind of task, I argued that going from 11 to 7 would be a serious problem, and it's not a matter of having a paid person to do them, the board ought to have the cycles to push the minutes from meeting in a timely fashion delegating this can just lead to more delays and less accuracy. It takes 20, 30mn at worse to edit and post minutes, every 2 weeks. If people on the board don't have that kind of time to offer, then it's a real problem, the only other option would be if current board people didn't think board minutes are important, but in that case they should be frank about this and state it I would not expect or request them. Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat http://redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From dneary@free.fr Tue Jun 6 09:43:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DE4A3B012C for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 09:43:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25372-04 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 09:43:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 642B23B00AB for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 09:43:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf1101.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 3E3B11C0004D; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:43:03 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060606134303255.3E3B11C0004D@mwinf1101.orange.fr Message-ID: <4485866C.5080903@free.fr> Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 15:43:08 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: veillard@redhat.com References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606113349.GW16734@redhat.com> <44856F50.4000402@free.fr> <20060606125938.GX16734@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: <20060606125938.GX16734@redhat.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Board meetings since March X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 13:43:07 -0000 Hi, Daniel Veillard wrote: > On Tue, Jun 06, 2006 at 02:04:32PM +0200, Dave Neary wrote: >> As an ex board member, you have read-only access to the board wiki pages >> - would you like to take on this task and help me out? > > I don't have much time either, and I disagree with using the Wiki as the > way to reach out the community. The private board pages are as good a way as any to prepare an agenda and allow people to edit it easily. Taking that information and splitting it into public/private parts and sending it onto a mailing list is the task I was thinking of. > I think you're not in a very good position to state there isn't enough cycles > to run those kind of task, I argued that going from 11 to 7 would be a serious > problem, and it's not a matter of having a paid person to do them, the board > ought to have the cycles to push the minutes from meeting in a timely fashion > delegating this can just lead to more delays and less accuracy. It takes 20, > 30mn at worse to edit and post minutes, every 2 weeks. If people on the > board don't have that kind of time to offer, then it's a real problem, the > only other option would be if current board people didn't think board minutes > are important, but in that case they should be frank about this and state it > I would not expect or request them. Of course this task is important, and of course one person can take care of it in under an hour after each meeting (half an hour to tidy up notes, and half an hour to take into consideration comments and mail to the list a couple of days later). As I said, the breakage is happening between the preparation of the minutes (which are happening in a timely manner, usually straight after the meeting) and the sending of public minutes to foundation-list a couple of days later. You always did a great job sending out the public minutes. This year, we have not done as good a job. But there is no way I'm saying that increasing the size of the board will help us do a better job - sending minutes out is, and has always been, the job of the secretary - it's not really something that can be shared unless he/she asks someone else to take care of it, or is absent from a meeting. Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From murrayc@murrayc.com Tue Jun 6 16:17:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD4943B0236 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 16:17:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19265-05 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 16:17:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swarthymail-a4.dreamhost.com (mailbigip.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.5]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0753D3B0B04 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 16:17:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from noname (p5497CD77.dip.t-dialin.net [84.151.205.119]) by swarthymail-a4.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92901129A8C; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 13:17:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Murray Cumming To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 22:17:51 +0200 Message-Id: <1149625071.6086.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.06 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.341, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_NJABL_PROXY=0.721, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SOCKS=2.159] X-Spam-Score: -1.06 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 20:17:57 -0000 Here's a positive reply, just so you don't think it's all negative. I'll never figure out how to request a representative sample of replies while also avoiding too many replies. I trust the board to do this and to know if they need to do it, and I have confidence in the proposed new members. I'd prefer delegation, but even the act of delegation requires suitable chunks of time that they might not have right now. If they can't do that quickly then they need to get on and do this now. I supported the reduced-size referendum because I think the board needs to make faster decisions instead of pondering every possibility until the chances have gone by. So well done. If I could set a condition for my Yes, it would be that the new board members would obsessively care for the Foundation's public wiki pages and keep people informed of possible meetings agendas and minutes of completed meetings. You do quite a lot and people should know about it. You might even start referring to not-public-yet agenda items by codenames if necessary, just so we have an idea of how much you are working on. -- Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From murrayc@murrayc.com Wed Jun 7 15:43:39 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBDAC3B01E8 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 15:43:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09531-04 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 15:43:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swarthymail-a1.dreamhost.com (mailbigip.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.5]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AD613B01BA for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 15:43:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from noname (p5497CB1E.dip.t-dialin.net [84.151.203.30]) by swarthymail-a1.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C133D8FE77; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 12:43:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Murray Cumming To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149170374.6894.73.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <1149170374.6894.73.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 21:43:33 +0200 Message-Id: <1149709413.5916.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.98 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.395, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.558, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.456] X-Spam-Score: -0.98 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 19:43:40 -0000 On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 15:59 +0200, Anne Østergaard wrote: > > > Realistically, this plans needs to be written by you. Others will > help you > > > with it, but you need to create it and drive it. [snip] > I will work with the whole of the women in FLOSS community as well as > with the persons who wrote the FLOSSPOLS reports and others who have > written scientific reports and with those of you who are interested. Thanks, Anne. I look forward to reading your suggestions. -- Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From dneary@free.fr Thu Jun 8 17:35:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E6BD3B05F8 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 17:35:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07181-03 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 17:35:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp3-g19.free.fr (smtp3-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.29]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A4A23B000E for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 17:35:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp3-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D47949075; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 23:35:36 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <44889604.7000405@free.fr> Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:26:28 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060521) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alan Cox References: <1147629160.44676e6870cb6@imp1-g19.free.fr> <1147699940.26686.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1147699539.4468815380ca5@imp1-g19.free.fr> <1147702053.26686.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <1147702053.26686.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------040605040600010104040604" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Boilerplate trademark agreement for commercial exploitation X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 21:35:40 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040605040600010104040604 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I was under the impression that I had sent this to the list a long time ago, but I can't find it in the archives, so here, for archival purposes, is the merchandising trademark agreement in .odt - all comments, as usual, are welcome. I'll take the opportunity to thank Dom Lachowitz, who has agreed to take over maintaining the document - I bow to his superior knowledge, and thank him very much for reminding us last week that we should be delegating more ;-) Cheers, Dave. Alan Cox wrote: > On Llu, 2006-05-15 at 15:25 +0200, Dave Neary wrote: >> I can certainly post a copy in ODT later in the week which gets converted into >> .doc every time we need to go to the lawyers... I won't always have the time to >> do it promptly, though. >> >> I will note that there are several high-quality free software programmes that >> can read and write the bits of the .doc format which are important for lawyers. > > > - There are open standards, and GNOME is an open standards based body > - A ".doc" file may render in many different ways, especialy if it > contains macros. Which is definitive, the contract as rendered by MS > Word or by Abiword or by OpenOffice ? > > Alan > > > -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France --------------040605040600010104040604 Content-Type: application/vnd.oasis.opendocument.text; name="GNOME merchandising contract.odt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="GNOME merchandising contract.odt" UEsDBBQAAAAAAMCpyDRexjIMJwAAACcAAAAIAAAAbWltZXR5cGVhcHBsaWNhdGlvbi92bmQu b2FzaXMub3BlbmRvY3VtZW50LnRleHRQSwMEFAAAAAAAwKnINAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABoAAABD b25maWd1cmF0aW9uczIvc3RhdHVzYmFyL1BLAwQUAAgACADAqcg0AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAJwAA AENvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb25zMi9hY2NlbGVyYXRvci9jdXJyZW50LnhtbAMAUEsHCAAAAAACAAAA AAAAAFBLAwQUAAAAAADAqcg0AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGAAAAENvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb25zMi9mbG9h dGVyL1BLAwQUAAAAAADAqcg0AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGgAAAENvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb25zMi9wb3B1 cG1lbnUvUEsDBBQAAAAAAMCpyDQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAcAAAAQ29uZmlndXJhdGlvbnMyL3By b2dyZXNzYmFyL1BLAwQUAAAAAADAqcg0AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGAAAAENvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb25z 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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALoBAABDb25maWd1cmF0aW9uczIvdG9vbGJhci9Q SwECFAAUAAAAAADAqcg0AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADwAQAAQ29uZmlndXJh dGlvbnMyL2ltYWdlcy9CaXRtYXBzL1BLAQIUABQACAAIAMCpyDTZGJ5XNgAAAGEAAAAMAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAC0CAABsYXlvdXQtY2FjaGVQSwECFAAUAAgACADAqcg0U3pP55gcAABZegAA CwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACdAgAAY29udGVudC54bWxQSwECFAAUAAgACADAqcg0dEyGStcMAAA9 ewAACgAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABuHwAAc3R5bGVzLnhtbFBLAQIUABQAAAAAAMCpyDTNnVEqtAQA ALQEAAAIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH0sAABtZXRhLnhtbFBLAQIUABQACAAIAMCpyDSebaW4NiEA AFAhAAAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAFcxAABUaHVtYm5haWxzL3RodW1ibmFpbC5wbmdQSwECFAAU AAgACADAqcg0OIZcuI0FAAACHgAADAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADTUgAAc2V0dGluZ3MueG1sUEsB AhQAFAAIAAgAwKnINIP3gpxPAQAArQcAABUAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAmlgAAE1FVEEtSU5GL21h bmlmZXN0LnhtbFBLBQYAAAAAEAAQACgEAAAsWgAAAAA= --------------040605040600010104040604-- From federico@ximian.com Thu Jun 8 18:56:43 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD6B93B031B for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 18:56:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10924-10 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 18:56:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 297323B0450 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 18:56:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 18926 invoked from network); 8 Jun 2006 22:56:39 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?164.99.120.169?) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 8 Jun 2006 22:56:39 -0000 From: Federico Mena Quintero To: foundation-list@gnome.org, GNOME Foundation Board Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 17:52:27 -0500 Message-Id: <1149807147.30645.105.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.645 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.905, BAYES_20=-0.74] X-Spam-Score: -1.645 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Required: Administrator for the Foundation X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 22:56:44 -0000 Hi, The GNOME Foundation is in need of a part-time administrator based in the USA. Our administrator will: 1. Collect, sort and summarise mail for the Board. 2. Handle bills in a timely manner. 3. Prepare checks for the Board to sign. 4. Track donations and fees. 5. Maintain a list of Board contacts. 6. Send out Friends of GNOME gifts to donors. 7. Keep the boards files in order, and sending expenses (when appropriate) to the accountant. 8. Handle the purchase and preparation of materials for tradeshows. 9. Attend board meetings bi-weekly as appropriate, and prepare status updates. 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. 11. There is no number 11. Proximity to Boston, MA is very desirable, though not mandatory. Please send your CV/resume in plain text to board-list@gnome.org. Federico From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Thu Jun 8 19:27:43 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E05373B019F for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 19:27:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12544-06 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 19:27:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7D04E3B03EC for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 19:27:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 11101 invoked by uid 0); 8 Jun 2006 23:27:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.34]) (83.55.174.28) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:27:37 +0000 From: Quim Gil To: Federico Mena Quintero In-Reply-To: <1149807147.30645.105.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> References: <1149807147.30645.105.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-g90YM+JWhOUtDEnlibmx" Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 01:27:36 +0200 Message-Id: <1149809257.5200.57.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=1.200, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:27:43 -0000 --=-g90YM+JWhOUtDEnlibmx Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Help the board (and the whole GNOME Foundation) spreading this profile or this link: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/2006-June/msg00077.html It is crystal clear that the board members will be much alleviated the day we have an efficient administrator in control of all the numbers and legal stuff.=20 El dj 08 de 06 del 2006 a les 17:52 -0500, en/na Federico Mena Quintero va escriure: > Hi, >=20 > The GNOME Foundation is in need of a part-time administrator based in > the USA. Our administrator will: >=20 > 1. Collect, sort and summarise mail for the Board. > 2. Handle bills in a timely manner. > 3. Prepare checks for the Board to sign. > 4. Track donations and fees. > 5. Maintain a list of Board contacts. > 6. Send out Friends of GNOME gifts to donors. > 7. Keep the boards files in order, and sending expenses (when=20 > appropriate) to the accountant. > 8. Handle the purchase and preparation of materials for tradeshows. > 9. Attend board meetings bi-weekly as appropriate, and prepare=20 > status updates. > 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. > 11. There is no number 11. >=20 > Proximity to Boston, MA is very desirable, though not mandatory. >=20 > Please send your CV/resume in plain text to board-list@gnome.org. >=20 > Federico >=20 > _______________________________________________ > foundation-list mailing list > foundation-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list >=20 --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-g90YM+JWhOUtDEnlibmx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEiLJoBEzHYk6x634RArJ6AJsGvNjgobbIa1GuEtIGYilkVS3pngCgrcR4 DwICtONuTn7adRgOQx5v+mo= =dz/Q -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-g90YM+JWhOUtDEnlibmx-- From anne@oestergaard.nu Fri Jun 9 06:20:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC9133B0099 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 06:20:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14331-03 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 06:20:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero0.cybercity.dk (cicero0.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.52]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22ECE3B0093 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 06:20:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero0.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC255678493 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 12:20:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 6AA8774F9A5 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 12:20:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 24532 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 10:20:46 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 10:20:46 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Federico Mena Quintero In-Reply-To: <1149807147.30645.105.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> References: <1149807147.30645.105.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 12:20:45 +0200 Message-Id: <1149848445.4453.36.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.538 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.061, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.538 X-Spam-Level: Cc: GNOME Foundation Board , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 10:20:54 -0000 tor, 08 06 2006 kl. 17:52 -0500, skrev Federico Mena Quintero: > Hi, > > The GNOME Foundation is in need of a part-time administrator based in > the USA. Our administrator will: > > 1. Collect, sort and summarise mail for the Board. > 2. Handle bills in a timely manner. > 3. Prepare checks for the Board to sign. > 4. Track donations and fees. > 5. Maintain a list of Board contacts. > 6. Send out Friends of GNOME gifts to donors. > 7. Keep the boards files in order, and sending expenses (when > appropriate) to the accountant. > 8. Handle the purchase and preparation of materials for tradeshows. > 9. Attend board meetings bi-weekly as appropriate, and prepare > status updates. > 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. > 11. There is no number 11. > > Proximity to Boston, MA is very desirable, though not mandatory. > > Please send your CV/resume in plain text to board-list@gnome.org. Don't forget to send a coverletter that explains why you qualify for this position. Anne From anne@oestergaard.nu Fri Jun 9 09:33:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70A3E3B029F for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 09:33:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27640-06 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 09:33:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F2963B0003 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 09:33:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user3.cybercity.dk (user3.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.36]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id F411F245C35 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 15:33:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user3.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id CAC1C93E3E for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 15:33:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 26273 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 13:33:41 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 13:33:41 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 15:33:39 +0200 Message-Id: <1149860019.4453.144.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.539 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.060, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.539 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 13:33:45 -0000 man, 05 06 2006 kl. 15:42 +0200, skrev Anne Østergaard: > Hello all GNOME Foundation Members, > > About the size of the present board. > > The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the > board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño. > > Background: > Not so long ago we had a Reducing Board Size Referendum > > "Should the board size be reduced from its current 11 directors to 7 > directors?" > > The Referendum Results: > > 188 members voted for this referendum. The repartition of the votes is: > > yes (117 votes) > no (70 votes) > blank votes: 1 > > > The board is at the moment of the opinion that a GNOME Board of 7 > persons should normally work and be enough, provided that we have a > staff person who can take part of the work load. > > Also at present a couple of the 7 board members have been given > additional responsibilities at their ordinary work places and/or > enlarged their family so they are pressed for time for "heavy" board > work. > > Since the board has not yet hired anybody (we are in the process of > doing so), the board would suggest to you that for the remaining of this > year, we ask Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño to join the board. > > They are both happy and willing to join the board, but under the > condition that there is not severe objections from the GNOME Foundation > Members. > > I think that I need not tell you, that the two candidates in question > are highly respected for their long time great contributions to the > GNOME project and the GNOME community spirit. > > Being responsible for having proposed this temporary compromise > solution, I naturally hope for your blessings. > > Please react within 10 days if you have problems with enlarging the > board by inviting Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño to join the > GNOME Board of Directors for the rest of 2006. > I think I made a mistake by only asking those having a problem with a temporary enlargement of the board till the end of the year. As we have not heard from the members would think this was quite acceptable, the result of the consultation would tend to be negative. This is logic. Should the board conclude that the community is against- or do we have lots of members who says yes or stay neutral? Please let's have your reaction before June 11th. Best wishes Anne PS The board is putting great efforts into delegating tasks as we know that there are many members eager to give a hand. In fact we almost always get a yes when we ask. From federico@ximian.com Fri Jun 9 10:42:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3F2C3B10A5 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 10:42:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31714-09 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 10:42:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E2953B0290 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 10:42:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 19596 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 14:42:29 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO 164-99-120-73.boston.ximian.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 14:42:29 -0000 From: Federico Mena Quintero To: foundation-list@gnome.org, foundation-announce@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 09:38:17 -0500 Message-Id: <1149863897.3733.5.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Questions for deployments of GNOME X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 14:42:33 -0000 Are you a deployment of GNOME? Are you like the City of Largo, Florida, or like the districts of Extremadura and Andalucía in Spain, who have big installations of machines running GNOME? At the GNOME Foundation we are conducting a little, informal study of how we can make your lives easier. If you are in charge of the technical part of a GNOME deployment, we would greatly appreciate it if you could answer the questions here: http://primates.ximian.com/~federico/news-2006-06.html#questions-for-deployments Please mail your replies to federico@gnu.org. A summary of the replies will be published during GUADEC this year. Thank you! Federico From domlachowicz@gmail.com Fri Jun 9 11:31:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BFA23B0222 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:31:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02652-02 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:31:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.207]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 965CA3B0290 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:31:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so654060wxd for ; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 08:31:53 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ZlrLXpqL60K1jk8gw3EPmgUEmZUs7iRuScIMEJ15le+bAITYJXZ6VK5qOBdKr99XGsf9iHLtP1cLzAAAAcHKc0zZ+AP0nnOQt8DqXZ/7MjFh/QeEqr33wBOS/t9ZUxPURaKYN9lUQHsv4APUxHzLnEa0GI+xJCtCeppE+Dy7OUg= Received: by 10.70.73.15 with SMTP id v15mr3606926wxa; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 08:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.116.12 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 08:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2672cf4d0606090831h34982de3u16db61e5308242ec@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:31:53 -0400 From: "Dominic Lachowicz" To: "=?UTF-8?Q?Anne_=C3=98stergaard?=" In-Reply-To: <1149860019.4453.144.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149860019.4453.144.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.351 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_BASE64_NO_NAME=0.224, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.351 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 15:31:56 -0000 SGkgQW5uZSwKCj4gPiBJIHRoaW5rIHRoYXQgSSBuZWVkIG5vdCB0ZWxsIHlvdSwgdGhhdCB0aGUg dHdvIGNhbmRpZGF0ZXMgaW4gcXVlc3Rpb24KPiA+IGFyZSBoaWdobHkgcmVzcGVjdGVkIGZvciB0 aGVpciBsb25nIHRpbWUgZ3JlYXQgY29udHJpYnV0aW9ucyB0byB0aGUKPiA+IEdOT01FIHByb2pl Y3QgYW5kIHRoZSBHTk9NRSBjb21tdW5pdHkgc3Bpcml0Lgo+ID4KPiA+IEJlaW5nIHJlc3BvbnNp YmxlIGZvciBoYXZpbmcgcHJvcG9zZWQgdGhpcyB0ZW1wb3JhcnkgY29tcHJvbWlzZQo+ID4gc29s dXRpb24sIEkgbmF0dXJhbGx5IGhvcGUgZm9yIHlvdXIgYmxlc3NpbmdzLgo+ID4KPiA+IFBsZWFz ZSByZWFjdCB3aXRoaW4gMTAgZGF5cyBpZiB5b3UgaGF2ZSBwcm9ibGVtcyB3aXRoIGVubGFyZ2lu ZyB0aGUKPiA+IGJvYXJkIGJ5IGludml0aW5nIEJlaGRhZCBFc2ZhaGJvZCBhbmQgR2VybcOhbiBQ b8OzLUNhYW1hw7FvIHRvIGpvaW4gdGhlCj4gPiBHTk9NRSBCb2FyZCBvZiBEaXJlY3RvcnMgZm9y IHRoZSByZXN0IG9mIDIwMDYuCgpbc25pcF0KCj4gUFMgVGhlIGJvYXJkIGlzIHB1dHRpbmcgZ3Jl YXQgZWZmb3J0cyBpbnRvIGRlbGVnYXRpbmcgdGFza3MgYXMgd2Uga25vdwo+IHRoYXQgdGhlcmUg YXJlIG1hbnkgbWVtYmVycyBlYWdlciB0byBnaXZlIGEgaGFuZC4gSW4gZmFjdCB3ZSBhbG1vc3QK PiBhbHdheXMgZ2V0IGEgeWVzIHdoZW4gd2UgYXNrLgoKSSBhcHByZWNpYXRlIHRoZSBib2FyZCdz IGVmZm9ydHMsIGhhcmQgd29yaywgYW5kIGRlZGljYXRpb24uIEkgYXBwbGF1ZAp0aGUgYm9hcmQn cyByZWNlbnQgcmVzb2x2ZSB0byBkZWxlZ2F0ZSBtb3JlIHRoaW5ncywgaW5jbHVkaW5nCmRlbGVn YXRpbmcgdGhlIFRNIGRvY3VtZW50IHRvIG1lLiBJIGhvcGUgbm90IHRvIGRpc2FwcG9pbnQgeW91 LgoKSG93ZXZlciwgSSBzdGlsbCBoYXZlbid0IGhlYXJkIGEgZ29vZCBleHBsYW5hdGlvbiBhcyB0 byAqd2h5KiB0aGUKYm9hcmQgbmVlZHMgbW9yZSBtZW1iZXJzIHRvIGZ1bGZpbGwgaXRzIGR1dGll cy4gT3Igd2h5IDIgaXMgdGhlIG1hZ2ljCm51bWJlci4gT3Igd2h5IHRoZSBuZXcgcG9zaXRpb25z IHdvdWxkIG9ubHkgYmUgdGVtcG9yYXJ5LiBXaGF0CnByb2JsZW1zIGlzIHRoZSBib2FyZCBmYWNp bmcgdGhhdCBjYW5ub3QgYmUgaGFuZGxlZCBieSB0aGUgY3VycmVudAptZW1iZXJzIHBsdXMgZGVs ZWdhdGlvbiBhcyBhcHByb3ByaWF0ZT8gT3IgaWYgY2VydGFpbiBtZW1iZXJzIGNhbid0Cm1lZXQg dGhlaXIgb2JsaWdhdGlvbnMgZHVlIHRvIG91dHNpZGUgb3IgZnV0dXJlIGNvbW1pdHRtZW50cyAo YXMgd2FzCkx1aXMnIGNhc2UgcmVjZW50bHkpIC0gb3Zlci1xdWFsaWZpZWQgYW5kIHBhc3Npb25h dGUgYXMgdGhleSBhcmUgLSAgaXMKdGhlIGNvcnJlY3Qgc29sdXRpb24gdG8gcmVzaWduIGFuZCBs ZXQgb3RoZXIgcGVvcGxlIHJlcGxhY2UgdGhlbT8KCkluIG15IG9waW5pb24sIHlvdSd2ZSBhc2tl ZCB1cyB0byB2b2ljZSBhbiBvcGluaW9uIHdpdGhvdXQgcHJlc2VudGluZwppbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBu ZWNlc3NhcnkgdG8gZm9ybWluZyBhIHF1YWxpZmllZCBvcGluaW9uLiBUaGlzIGlzIG1hZGUKZXZl biBtb3JlIGRpZmZpY3VsdCAoSU1PLCBvZiBjb3Vyc2UpIHNpbmNlIG5vIGJvYXJkIG1lZXRpbmcg bWludXRlcwpoYXZlIGJlZW4gcmVsZWFzZWQgc2luY2UgTWFyY2ggMjIsIHdoaWNoIGlzIGZhc3Qg YXBwcm9hY2hpbmcgMyBtb250aHMKYWdvLgoKSSBkb24ndCBrbm93IGFsbCBvZiB0aGUgcHJvYmxl bXMgZmFjaW5nIHRoZSBib2FyZC4gSSdtIG5vdCBzdXJlIHRoYXQKSSdtIGVudGl0bGVkIHRvIGtu b3cgdGhlbS4gQnV0IGZyb20gd2hhdCBsaXR0bGUgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24gSSBoYXZlLCBJCmNhbid0 IGhlbHAgYnV0IGZlZWwgdGhhdCB0aGUgYm9hcmQgaGFzIGdvdHRlbiBtb3JlIG9wYXF1ZSBhbmQK b3ZlcndvcmtlZCBzaW5jZSBpdHMgcmVjZW50IHJlZHVjdGlvbiB0byA3IG1lbWJlcnMuIChGb3Ig dGhlIHJlY29yZCwgSQpzdGlsbCBkaXNsaWtlIHRoYXQgbm8gZ29vZCBhcmd1bWVudCB3YXMgbWFk ZSB0aGVuIGFzIHRvIHdoYXQgcHJvYmxlbXMKdGhlIHByZXZpb3VzIGJvYXJkIHdhcyBmYWNpbmcs IGFuZCB3aHkgZ2V0dGluZyByaWQgb2YgNCBwZW9wbGUgd291bGQKaGF2ZSBzb2x2ZWQgdGhvc2Ug cHJvYmxlbXMuIElNSE8sIGhpc3Rvcnkgbm93IHJlcGVhdHMgaXRzZWxmLikKCklmIGFkZGluZyAy IG1vcmUgbWVtYmVycyB3aWxsIGhlbHAgc29sdmUgdGhlIGJvYXJkJ3MgcHJvYmxlbXMgaW4gd2F5 cwp0aGF0IGRlbGVnYXRpb24gb3IgYXR0cml0aW9uIGFsb25lIGNhbid0LCB0aGVuIGdyZWF0LiBM ZXQncyBkbyBpdC4gQnV0CnBsZWFzZSwgbWFrZSBhbiBhcmd1bWVudCBpbiB0aGUgbmV4dCAzIGRh eXMgYXMgdG8gd2h5IGFkZGluZyB0aGVzZQpwZW9wbGUgd2lsbCBoZWxwIHNvbHZlIHRoZSBwcm9i bGVtLgoKQmVzdCwKRG9tCi0tIApDb3VudGluZyBib2RpZXMgbGlrZSBzaGVlcCB0byB0aGUgcmh5 dGhtIG9mIHRoZSB3YXIgZHJ1bXMuCg== From dneary@free.fr Fri Jun 9 16:48:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29F733B01F6 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:48:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19379-08 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:48:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1-g19.free.fr (smtp1-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.27]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 128893B11A4 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:48:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp1-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BCEA9ABB8 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 22:48:13 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4489DB7A.6090102@free.fr> Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 22:35:06 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060521) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Foundation-List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Draft agenda for foundation AGM during GUADEC X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 20:48:45 -0000 Hi, We will be holding a GNOME Foundation general meeting during GUADEC on Tuesday June 27th, at 14h. The agenda will be pretty basic - we will present what the board has been working on and will work on for the rest of the year, get a report on our finances from the treasurer, and have a Q&A session for the rest of the time available. The meeting is for foundation members - so please, if there are things you feel we should concentrate on, reply here with suggestions for additions, or for subjects which you consider important. The AGM is our way to communicate directly to the membership what everyone's been doing for the foundation and for the community. We won't be limiting ourselves to board activities - sinceone of the core tasks of the board is to be aware of what's going on around the foundation, and co-ordinate people when there is common interest. Cheers, Dave. Agenda ====== 1. Chairman's report Presentation of the board, and overview of the foundation's activities since last GUADEC. I will be handing off the conch to other board members for particular topics. 2. Treasurer's report The state of the finances - how much money we have, what we've spent money on, and what we plan to do with the rest. 3. Ongoing projects and their status 4. Questions & Answers -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From danw@novell.com Fri Jun 9 17:04:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 132FA3B01AB for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:04:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20767-04 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:04:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B2E43B00FE for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:04:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 20109 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 21:04:39 -0000 Received: from outbound.ximian.com (HELO ?164.99.121.40?) (danw@130.57.170.250) by peabody.ximian.com with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 21:04:39 -0000 Message-ID: <4489E254.1070900@novell.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 17:04:20 -0400 From: Dan Winship User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20060317) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606054045.GM5138@waugh.id.au> In-Reply-To: <20060606054045.GM5138@waugh.id.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.734 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.824, BAYES_05=-1.11, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2] X-Spam-Score: -1.734 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 21:04:45 -0000 Jeff Waugh wrote: > * We are attempting to do big things without the benefit of having a face > to face meeting. Every board so far has been more effective post-GUADEC, > after they've had the opportunity to sit down, grind through the issues > with a lot of social bandwidth and look each other up and down a bit. It > really helps develop shared vision, shared values and shared trust in a > way that mail, phone and IRC can't. Should we shift the election cycle by a few months then, so that GUADEC falls near the start of the new board's term, rather than halfway through? -- Dan From rml@novell.com Fri Jun 9 17:23:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7FCA3B02C9 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:23:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21648-01 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:23:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 900583B0256 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:23:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 20159 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 21:23:16 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO betsy.boston.ximian.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 21:23:16 -0000 From: Robert Love To: Dan Winship In-Reply-To: <4489E254.1070900@novell.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606054045.GM5138@waugh.id.au> <4489E254.1070900@novell.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 17:23:32 -0400 Message-Id: <1149888212.31757.191.camel@betsy.boston.ximian.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.482 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.083, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2] X-Spam-Score: -2.482 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 21:23:18 -0000 On Fri, 2006-06-09 at 17:04 -0400, Dan Winship wrote: > Should we shift the election cycle by a few months then, so that GUADEC > falls near the start of the new board's term, rather than halfway through? I am pretty sure that cheetah's don't have teeth, but I could be way off on that one. Robert Love From rml@novell.com Fri Jun 9 17:26:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9FF33B02D1 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:26:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21629-06 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:26:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C92C23B02C9 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:26:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 20164 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 21:26:14 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO betsy.boston.ximian.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 21:26:14 -0000 From: Robert Love To: Dan Winship In-Reply-To: <1149888212.31757.191.camel@betsy.boston.ximian.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606054045.GM5138@waugh.id.au> <4489E254.1070900@novell.com> <1149888212.31757.191.camel@betsy.boston.ximian.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 17:26:29 -0400 Message-Id: <1149888389.31757.193.camel@betsy.boston.ximian.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.482 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.083, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2] X-Spam-Score: -2.482 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 21:26:19 -0000 On Fri, 2006-06-09 at 17:23 -0400, Robert Love wrote: > On Fri, 2006-06-09 at 17:04 -0400, Dan Winship wrote: > > > Should we shift the election cycle by a few months then, so that GUADEC > > falls near the start of the new board's term, rather than halfway through? > > I am pretty sure that cheetah's don't have teeth, but I could be way off > on that one. There is a definite bug in Evolution. Robert Love From anne@oestergaard.nu Fri Jun 9 18:41:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3E513B0353 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 18:41:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25560-09 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 18:41:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 379E33B0101 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 18:41:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user4.cybercity.dk (user4.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.50]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2FD2245263 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 00:41:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user4.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 464415045D for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 00:41:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 1264 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 22:41:17 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 22:41:17 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: David Neary In-Reply-To: <4489DB7A.6090102@free.fr> References: <4489DB7A.6090102@free.fr> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 00:41:16 +0200 Message-Id: <1149892876.4453.220.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.539 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.060, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.539 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Foundation-List Subject: Re: Draft agenda for foundation AGM during GUADEC X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 22:41:33 -0000 fre, 09 06 2006 kl. 22:35 +0200, skrev David Neary: > Hi, > > We will be holding a GNOME Foundation general meeting during GUADEC on > Tuesday June 27th, at 14h. > > The agenda will be pretty basic - we will present what the board has > been working on and will work on for the rest of the year, get a report > on our finances from the treasurer, and have a Q&A session for the rest > of the time available. > > The meeting is for foundation members - so please, if there are things > you feel we should concentrate on, reply here with suggestions for > additions, or for subjects which you consider important. > > The AGM is our way to communicate directly to the membership what > everyone's been doing for the foundation and for the community. We won't > be limiting ourselves to board activities - sinceone of the core tasks since one > of the board is to be aware of what's going on around the foundation, > and co-ordinate people when there is common interest. > > Cheers, > Dave. > > Agenda > ====== > > 1. Chairman's report > > Presentation of the board, and overview of the foundation's activities > since last GUADEC. I will be handing off the conch to other board > members for particular topics. > > 2. Treasurer's report > > The state of the finances - how much money we have, what we've spent > money on, and what we plan to do with the rest. > > 3. Ongoing projects and their status > > 4. Questions & Answers Looks fine to me. Thanks Dave. Anne From jdub@waugh.id.au Sat Jun 10 03:27:16 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D9D63B021F for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 03:27:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15839-04 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 03:27:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A4FE3B01B7 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 03:27:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (ppp121-112.static.internode.on.net [150.101.121.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27C473C362 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:27:12 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6E7653F55; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:27:03 +1000 (EST) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:27:03 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060610072703.GG5138@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606054045.GM5138@waugh.id.au> <4489E254.1070900@novell.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <4489E254.1070900@novell.com> Reply-By: Tue Jun 13 16:55:45 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 16:55:45 up 8 days, 16:47, 10 users, load average: 0.06, 0.09, 0.03 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.448 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.448 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 07:27:16 -0000 > Jeff Waugh wrote: > > * We are attempting to do big things without the benefit of having a > > face to face meeting. Every board so far has been more effective > > post-GUADEC, after they've had the opportunity to sit down, grind > > through the issues with a lot of social bandwidth and look each other > > up and down a bit. It really helps develop shared vision, shared values > > and shared trust in a way that mail, phone and IRC can't. > > Should we shift the election cycle by a few months then, so that GUADEC > falls near the start of the new board's term, rather than halfway through? I'd like to, and proposed it during my previous term, but it wasn't pursued (probably a combination of my year off, other important structural changes going on, and indecision about how to kick it off - delay the elections by five months or shift them ahead by four?). Aiming for elections in May would probably be best - I'll add this to the board agenda, thanks! - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ "Trying to get a PC to analyse one of the most abstract forms of language - the poem - is like trying to drill for oil with a banana." - The Register From aguelzow@pyrshep.ca Mon Jun 5 14:59:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EAD83B0A25 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:59:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23291-09 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:59:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.mail.interbaun.com (smtp01.mail.interbaun.com [199.185.130.39]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEF373B09D1 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:59:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 14439 invoked by uid 502); 5 Jun 2006 18:59:31 -0000 Received: from 226.207-229-35-0.interbaun.com (207.229.35.226) by smtp01.mail.interbaun.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 18:59:31 -0000 From: "Andreas J. Guelzow" To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 12:58:39 -0600 Message-Id: <1149533919.6058.5.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 16:16:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 18:59:45 -0000 On Mon, 2006-05-06 at 13:21 -0400, Dominic Lachowicz wrote: > > Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > > > > Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > > everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. > > It doesn't seem to be entirely arbitrary. The 3 "appointees" were the > next 3 highest vote-getters in the 2005 elections. In other words, they lost the election. > > http://foundation.gnome.org/vote/results.php?election_id=2 > > > candidacy statement for the next election. But, they can't be members of > > the board without an election. > > The Foundation's charter apparently says (in at least two places) that > they can appoint members without an election: > > http://foundation.gnome.org/about/charter/ > > "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows, > subject to approval by the board or referendum of the membership." > > "Between elections, board vacancies or new board slots shall be filled > by appointment by the board of directors." This is different from temporarily appointing 2 additional members. Of course the board can add new seats, but they will then be permanent until (again?) removed via a referendum. Andreas From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Sat Jun 10 19:23:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F2583B0250 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:23:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31888-05 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:23:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5649B3B00BE for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:23:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 25487 invoked by uid 0); 10 Jun 2006 23:03:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.33]) (83.55.171.219) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:03:01 +0000 From: Quim Gil To: Dominic Lachowicz In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606090831h34982de3u16db61e5308242ec@mail.gmail.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149860019.4453.144.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606090831h34982de3u16db61e5308242ec@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-KTaz04E3pQ5RiXxb3JWq" Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 01:03:01 +0200 Message-Id: <1149980581.5208.64.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.421 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=1.178, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -1.421 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:23:34 -0000 --=-KTaz04E3pQ5RiXxb3JWq Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Dom, El dv 09 de 06 del 2006 a les 11:31 -0400, en/na Dominic Lachowicz va escriure: > What > problems is the board facing that cannot be handled by the current > members plus delegation as appropriate? This is a good question (the other ones as well, but at least I can say something about this one). In the board meeting of last Wednesday we discussed possible and easy to implement ways to improve the communication and collaboration between the board and people willing to have a higher implication and participation in foundation/board tasks.=20 Good communication eases collaboration, and good collaboration eases trust. Trust is the root of many problems of delegation: sharing or delegating a private task to someone you trust and collaborate takes 5 minutes (ok, maybe more). The same action without regular communication-collaboration-trust takes more time, and risk. Jeff is preparing a proposal. I just wanted to provide some informal and personal feedback so you don't think that the board is keeping the temporary enlargement as the only or primary option to consider. > IMHO, history now repeats itself.) Another interesting point, that brings an issue... In our current setting it is very unlikely that the current board is going to criticize openly something specific about the last board. I believe the way the board is mounted and unmounted every year makes difficult to make (self)criticism openly. It's not like one party losing an election and a new party coming in (system that has its defects but at least assures criticism and review of the past actions). This is not something unique to the GNOME Foundation, this is a problem intrinsic in any organization voting for individuals that suddenly need to work as a compact team, and then be renewed quite often (like once a year). The problem is clearer when some individuals repeat, and some come in for the first time. Maybe a solution would be that the team leaving the board makes not only a meeting with the new board members, but also a last internal meeting to write up a public report of which things went well and why, and which things went bad and why. And/or a summary of the same questions answered individually by each board member. Hackers know that documenting is the best way to avoid known mistakes. --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-KTaz04E3pQ5RiXxb3JWq Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEi0+kBEzHYk6x634RAqbeAJ9KM9xYm0T4wGYCpXUQewmeO2aZMgCeL2F/ 880R+hSnd79e/n/kwcLeFpg= =HToh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-KTaz04E3pQ5RiXxb3JWq-- From dneary@free.fr Mon Jun 12 03:55:04 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BAE23B00D4 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 03:55:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24556-10 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 03:54:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp12.wanadoo.fr (smtp12.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.20]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32A523B0186 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 03:54:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf1201.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 2B0571C00089; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 09:54:39 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060612075439176.2B0571C00089@mwinf1201.orange.fr Message-ID: <448D1DCC.7090102@free.fr> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 09:54:52 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Neary References: <4489DB7A.6090102@free.fr> In-Reply-To: <4489DB7A.6090102@free.fr> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Foundation-List Subject: Re: Draft agenda for foundation AGM during GUADEC X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 07:55:04 -0000 Hi, David Neary wrote: > The agenda will be pretty basic - we will present what the board has > been working on and will work on for the rest of the year, get a report > on our finances from the treasurer, and have a Q&A session for the rest > of the time available. Following on from feedback, a partial list of the various initiatives and projects we'll be including is below: > Agenda > ====== > > 1. Chairman's report > > Presentation of the board, and overview of the foundation's activities > since last GUADEC. I will be handing off the conch to other board > members for particular topics. * Documentation contract * Public service * Foundation administrator role * Google SoC * Foundation organised/funded Conferences * Conference presence - EclipseCon, LinuxWorld, FOSDEM, linux.conf.au, ... * Event boxes * Communication & promotion > 2. Treasurer's report > > The state of the finances - how much money we have, what we've spent > money on, and what we plan to do with the rest. > > 3. Ongoing projects and their status * Web site redesign * Trademark agreements * Executive director * Merchandising (dormant) > 4. Questions & Answers Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From federico@ximian.com Mon Jun 12 11:55:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEDC73B009D for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:55:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09055-01 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:55:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB46E3B0078 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:55:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 21660 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2006 15:52:35 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?192.168.1.101?) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 12 Jun 2006 15:52:35 -0000 From: Federico Mena Quintero To: foundation-list@gnome.org, foundation-announce-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 10:48:18 -0500 Message-Id: <1150127298.17566.47.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Minutes of the Board meeting, 2006/Apr/05 X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:55:13 -0000 Dusting out the drawer of old minutes... GNOME Foundation Board Meeting, 2006/04/05 ========================================== Attendance: Dave (Chairing, minutes) Vincent Luis Jonathan Rosanna Jeff (0:10) Regrets: Anne Missing: Federico Actions: Luis to mail boston-social@gnome.org to look for volunteers to represent us at Boston Usenix and Boston LWE - DONE! Dave to be our liaison with marketing-list to set up the basic structure of the new www.gnome.org - ongoing Dave to request a contract from Quim for GUADEC - ongoing. We expect something by Easter. Federico to mail advisory-board-list about what members would like to obtain from the Foundation. - We'll pick it up at the meeting. Jeff to write a proposal for the technical project meeting. - ongoing. Jeff describes Ghosts of past Conferences. Something we should do for GUADEC. Luis to send mail RE LWE/Usenix: done GUADEC meetings - Deciding dates & times for advisory board and board meetings Board meeting before and Advisory after is a good idea. -Dave: We should split up the all-day board meeting so we don't wear out. -Advisory board is on Thursday, June 29th Advisory board - Preparing the meeting - Need an agenda - luis: Should we keep it to a single agenda? - bolsh: Want to turn it into something where they go to them frequently - jeff: turn it into a long term agenda Action: Get Advisory board rep for RH -Done: Gerry Riveros is representing Advisory Board fees - -We're going to go to a January billing period. Prorate people. No one has been billed yet. Axis Informática wanting to sell products with the GNOME logo (see Rodrigo's mail) -Reuse the german contract for this group (initially) -Turn it into a generic TM agreemark that people can use -Action: Contact lawyers to make sure our generic contract can work. Federico From federico@ximian.com Mon Jun 12 11:56:06 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0BB33B009D for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:56:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08921-07 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:56:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69BDF3B0010 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:56:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 21665 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2006 15:54:57 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?192.168.1.101?) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 12 Jun 2006 15:54:57 -0000 From: Federico Mena Quintero To: foundation-list@gnome.org, foundation-announce-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 10:50:41 -0500 Message-Id: <1150127441.17566.48.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Minutes of the Board meeting, 2006/Apr/26 X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:56:06 -0000 GNOME Foundation Board Meeting, 2006/04/26 ========================================== Attendance: =========== Dave Neary (Chairing, minutes) Luis Villa Anne Oestergaard Vincent Untz Jeff Waugh Missing: ======== Jonathan Blandford (arrived :50) Federico Mena Quintero Actions ======= * Dave to request a contract from Quim for GUADEC - ongoing * Jeff to write a proposal for the technical project meeting - outside scope of the board * Dave to resurrect German contract from last year so that we can use it for Axis Informática - ongoing (sent to foundation-list for round of feedback) New actions =========== ACTION: Announce US event box & contents (Vincent) ACTION: Announce final shortlist of GUADEC 07 candidates (Anne) ACTION: Dave to get feedback off Dom on the old contract, and mail the result on to foundation list ACTION: Anne to contact Tim for the name of the lawyer who worked on the agreement last year Agenda: ======= 1. Administrator * Process for hiring full-time executive director * Refine job description, and talk about the profile we're looking for We would like to hire an executive director to develop business strategy and manage our relationships with commercial and non-profit partners. We're going to take the time to hire the right person. We also need to make sure basic administration and accounting are taken care of in a timely fashion. We can continue to hire a part time administrator or out-source office services. It was agreed that outsourcing in the Boston area, where our lawyers and accountants are located, makes sense. 2. Summer of Code * Let's make sure GNOME does better (from an organisational point of view) this time Vincent and Behdad took care of organising GNOME for this. 3. GUADEC 2007 - declare list of candidates Candidates to be proposed publically on foundation-list for a public comments period. 4. Decision for the US event box (Carried on mailing list: no discussion needed) -- Federico Mena Quintero From federico@ximian.com Mon Jun 12 12:01:35 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CA2A3B008A for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 12:01:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09149-02 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 12:01:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6C8B3B0100 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 12:00:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 21670 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2006 15:59:08 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?192.168.1.101?) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 12 Jun 2006 15:59:08 -0000 From: Federico Mena Quintero To: foundation-list@gnome.org, foundation-announce-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 10:54:52 -0500 Message-Id: <1150127692.17566.50.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Minutes of the Board meeting, 2006/May/17 X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 16:01:35 -0000 GNOME Foundation Board Meeting, 2006/05/17 ========================================== Attendance: Anne Federico (minutes) Jonathan Vincent No attendance: Dave (regrets) Luis (regrets) Jeff We started the meeting on IRC since there was trouble with the phone access code. JRB came in later, fixed our code, and we started the phone meeting around 45 minutes after the IRC one. PREVIOUS ACTIONS ================ * Dave to ask Dom to refine/reduce the German contract: DONE, RFC gone to foundation-list * Anne to announce final list of GUADEC 2007 candidates: DONE. * Vincent to announce North American event box: DONE. * Luis to find out which lawyer we worked with on the contract revisions last year: NOT DONE. * JRB to get quotes for back-office services, via Owen: NOT DONE. * Jeff to send Embedded agenda to board list: NOT DONE. NEW ACTIONS =========== * Luis to find out which lawyer we worked with on the contract revisions last year (carried over from previous actions). * JRB to get quotes for back-office services, via Owen (carried over from previous actions). * Jeff and Vincent to send Embedded agenda to board list (carried over from previous actions). * Federico to send a draft job announcement to board-list for the executive director and the administrator. * Federico to write an agenda for the next Advisory Board meeting, to take place on May 31st. [Taken up by Dave] * JRB to mail board-list about invoicing Intel (hard disk crash). * JRB to send an update on what hardware has been bought for the event box. * Quim to contact HP and Novell about sponsorship for GUADEC. * Federico to mail Quim/Behdad/Germán about replacing Luis. AGENDA ====== * Invoicing GUADEC sponsors & advisory board members - Pending paperwork. * Handling conference finances - need to ask Dave about mailing Quim. * Buying stuff for the event box - how, when, what, who - need volunteers. * Financial situation - no change. * Merchandising contract - it has gone to foundation-list. * GUADEC - no update. * Ad board - we're due another meeting, it's been a month. How about in a fortnight? (UPDATE: a fortnight from now) Yes, it will be on May 31st. Federico to send an agenda and announcement. * GUADEC 2007 - It would be nice to have a public request for comments period. (UPDATE: Anne has said she'll take care of this). It's in foundation-list now. * Administrator - type of person we want, process for getting the hire going, the usual. We need to start moving forward on that, seriously. We need a full-time person working for us. No quotes for outsourcing yet. From federico@ximian.com Mon Jun 12 13:57:30 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3C333B0943 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 13:57:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21275-07 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 13:57:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 949C23B0150 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 12:07:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 21703 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2006 16:06:26 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?192.168.1.101?) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 12 Jun 2006 16:06:26 -0000 From: Federico Mena Quintero To: foundation-list@gnome.org, foundation-announce@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:02:10 -0500 Message-Id: <1150128130.17566.52.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Minutes of the Board meeting, 2006/Jun/07 X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 17:57:30 -0000 GNOME Foundation Board Meeting, 2006/06/07 ========================================== Attendance: Anne Dave Federico Jeff Jonathan Quim (welcome, Quim!) No attendance: Vincent (regrets) PREVIOUS ACTIONS ================ PUBLIC: * Dave to request a contract from Quim for GUADEC: IN PROGRESS. Quim is taking care of this. * Dave to resurrect German contract from last year so that we can use it for Axis Informática. IN PROGRESS. Needs to go to the lawyer. * Jeff to write a proposal for the technical project meeting: IN PROGRESS * Federico to send a draft job announcement to board-list for the executive director and the administrator: NOT DONE * Federico to write an agenda for the next Advisory Board meeting, to take place on May 31st. DONE, the meeting happened. * JRB to send an update on what hardware has been bought for the event box: IN PROGRESS. * JRB to mail board-list about invoicing Intel (hard disk crash): Quim to take this action. * Quim to contact HP and Novell about sponsorship for GUADEC. DONE - both sponsoring * Federico to mail Quim/Behdad/Germán about replacing Luis. DONE NEW ACTIONS =========== * Federico to send minutes from the Advisory Board meeting to advisory-board-list. * JRB to post the contact info for the lawyer / accountant to board-list and the wiki. * Federico to make the announcement for the part-time administrator. * Jeff to write a proposal for the subcommittees. * Jeff to ensure that all the board members are in the marketing-private and board-only lists. * Dave to send draft agenda for the Advisory Board meeting, based on Federico's paper. * Anne to to take over contacts with GNOME's legal partners. AGENDA ====== * Welcome Quim to the Board: - Gave Quim a brief update on what the Board has been doing. - Quim told us that he has been reading the board-list minutes but not the archives. * Figuring out how to execute all the pending actions, and not be swamped in pending stuff all the time: - NEW ACTION: JRB to post the contact info for the lawyer / accountant to board-list and the wiki. - We are going to need a presence in the USA no matter what, for legal matters in the Foundation. * Administrator hire / outsourcing: - NEW ACTION: Federico to make the announcement for the part-time administrator. - We want to hire someone part-time immediately and will announce the vacancy and ask Zana to submit a candidature. * Increasing the board size: - Idea about letting people into board-list and into the phone calls, without them being board members. Then they can volunteer to do some of the tasks that the board can't do effectively (like someone in the USA to look for an administrator). - NEW ACTION: Jeff to write a proposal for the subcommittees. * Agendas for GUADEC: - Let's send provisional agendas in advance. - NEW ACTION: Dave to send draft agenda for the Advisory Board meeting, based on Federico's paper. From behdad.esfahbod@gmail.com Thu Jun 15 17:38:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10A073B0011 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2006 17:38:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02101-02 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2006 17:38:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.235]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CCB93B0305 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2006 17:38:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 37so427821wra for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2006 14:38:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.108.13 with SMTP id g13mr2187733wrc; Thu, 15 Jun 2006 14:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.190.5? ( [72.136.156.47]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 6sm1544376wrl.2006.06.15.14.38.10; Thu, 15 Jun 2006 14:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Women's Summer Outreach Program 2006 From: Behdad Esfahbod To: gnome-hackers@gnome.org, foundation-list@gnome.org, foundation-announce@gnome.org, gnome-announce-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 17:38:06 -0400 Message-Id: <1150407487.29623.12.camel@home> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 (2.6.1-1.fc5.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: Behdad Esfahbod X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 21:38:54 -0000 GNOME to Sponsor Female Developers in a Summer Outreach Program BOSTON, Mass - June 13, 2006 - The GNOME Foundation is offering USD$9000 to female students in order to promote the participation of women in GNOME-related development. The money originates from GNOME's participation in the Google "Summer of Code" program (code.google.com/soc/), for which GNOME developers will mentor 20 students working throughout the northern summer on GNOME-related projects. This year GNOME received 181 applications to Google's program, yet none were from women. The GNOME Foundation has therefore chosen to reinvest Google's contribution into a new program designed to increase the participation of women in GNOME. The program has no official relationship with Google. "Free software prides itself on being open to anyone with a good idea, yet less than 2% of free software developers are female. We, as a community, need to be actively working to change this statistic, and programs like this one are a much needed step in the right direction." said Hanna Wallach, a GNOME developer who is involved in several projects that encourage women to participate in free software development. The Women's Summer Outreach Program is currently accepting applications from female students. Accepted students will receive a stipend of USD $3000 over a two month period. A pool of project ideas is provided at www.gnome.org/projects/wsop/, though original proposals are also encouraged. Projects may either be related to GNOME directly, or indirectly via projects such as Gstreamer and Abiword. Each student will be assigned a mentor to provide guidance throughout the program. Vincent Untz, member of the GNOME Foundation board and coordinator of the GNOME team for Google's "Summer of Code" program, explained: "Many women have the skills required to contribute to Free Software projects like GNOME, but may not see an opportunity to start working with us. By initiating this program, not only do we want to highlight the issue, but we also hope that this opportunity will help more women to get involved in the long term." Applications should be submitted using the form at www.gnome.org/projects/wsop/. More information about the application process may be found at the same location. From mark@galassi.org Sun Jun 11 01:20:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CD043B0074; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 01:20:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11497-01; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 01:20:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agora.rdrop.com (agora.rdrop.com [199.26.172.34]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 277D23B00C1; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 01:20:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (67-42-116-199.albq.qwest.net [67.42.116.199]) (authenticated bits=0) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id k5B5IxaM059197 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 10 Jun 2006 22:19:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@galassi.org) To: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> From: Mark Galassi Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:18:04 -0600 In-Reply-To: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> (Federico Mena Quintero's message of "Fri, 09 Jun 2006 09:35:42 -0500") Message-ID: <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (agora.rdrop.com [199.26.172.34]); Sat, 10 Jun 2006 22:19:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.465 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.465 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 05:53:15 -0400 Cc: foundation-announce@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 05:20:27 -0000 Federico> 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. I hope that it will be a firm requirement that only free s/w be used to run the Foundation's administration. I know you are only talking about literacy, not what tools will be used, but I think this is a good moment to state that if we start hiring non-free-sw-hackers to do this kind of work, we should insist that they use free tools. I still remember my sadness when I worked for Cygnus and saw that the non-developers did not use free s/w across the board. From rms@gnu.org Sat Jun 17 15:56:39 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A04183B01A6; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:56:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05890-09; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:56:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7F0E3B0061; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:56:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1Frgt3-0006cU-Ba; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:55:17 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Mark Galassi In-reply-to: <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> (message from Mark Galassi on Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:18:04 -0600) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Message-Id: Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:55:17 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.549 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.051, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.549 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-announce@gnome.org, foundation-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:56:39 -0000 Federico> 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. Unless you're looking for kernel hackers, please make that "GNU/Linux literate". You probably want people who know how to edit with Emacs, write code to compile with GCC, debug with GDB, and call functions in GLIBC and GTK+. From alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk Sat Jun 17 18:05:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E96D3B095C; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:05:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11915-05; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:05:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (unknown [81.2.110.250]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8C153B0995; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:05:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k5HMK9aZ010673; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:20:09 +0100 Received: (from alan@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k5HMK8a3010672; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:20:08 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: alan set sender to alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk using -f Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Alan Cox To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:20:08 +0100 Message-Id: <1150582808.10649.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.2 (2.6.2-1.fc5.5) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.589 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.010, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.589 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-announce@gnome.org, foundation-list@gnome.org, Mark Galassi X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 22:05:03 -0000 Ar Sad, 2006-06-17 am 15:55 -0400, ysgrifennodd Richard Stallman: > Unless you're looking for kernel hackers, > please make that "GNU/Linux literate". Linux is a trademark in the USA. The use of GNU/Linux without indicating the trademark is inappropriately confusing the registered mark. And last time I checked GNOME was not a GNU project. Alan From jrb@redhat.com Sat Jun 17 18:12:06 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E29BF3B095C; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:12:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12356-02; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:12:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [66.187.233.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 567043B035D; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:12:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5HL9w54017447; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 17:09:58 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (devserv.devel.redhat.com [172.16.58.1]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5HL9wAk007091; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 17:09:58 -0400 Received: from vpn50-83.rdu.redhat.com (vpn50-83.rdu.redhat.com [172.16.50.83]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5HL9wrV027671; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 17:09:58 -0400 Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Jonathan Blandford To: Mark Galassi In-Reply-To: <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-Nx9mtySaFKPPRo++4u3H" Organization: Red Hat, Inc. Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 17:09:57 -0400 Message-Id: <1150578597.2841.94.camel@peach> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.2 (2.6.2-1.fc5.5) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.583 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.583 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-announce@gnome.org, foundation-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 22:12:06 -0000 --=-Nx9mtySaFKPPRo++4u3H Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, 2006-06-10 at 23:18 -0600, Mark Galassi wrote: > Federico> 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. >=20 > I hope that it will be a firm requirement that only free s/w be used > to run the Foundation's administration. >=20 > I know you are only talking about literacy, not what tools will be > used, but I think this is a good moment to state that if we start > hiring non-free-sw-hackers to do this kind of work, we should insist > that they use free tools. >=20 > I still remember my sadness when I worked for Cygnus and saw that the > non-developers did not use free s/w across the board. Right now, we use free tools to run almost all the foundation's books. We use gnucash, abiword, glabels[1] and gnucash for the bookkeeping. The GNOME tools are more than adequate to handle the Foundation's needs. We do have a vmware instance to run Internet Explorer just for online banking. No one on the board is happy with this situation, and we're planning on switching banks over this issue. Thanks, -Jonathan [1] which is a really nice and underpromoted program. Many kudos to the authors for doing such a slick job on this application. --=-Nx9mtySaFKPPRo++4u3H Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBElG+lEXFTqNjUZNwRAl8xAJ0anqoLKt5dgU454m1WNN3cMSw0DgCgnxu2 uNT01EAS78FHMGmDtvrSe4U= =96VV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-Nx9mtySaFKPPRo++4u3H-- From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Sat Jun 17 18:17:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EF873B035D for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:17:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12134-06 for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:17:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 740AD3B00EC for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:17:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 22052 invoked by uid 0); 17 Jun 2006 22:09:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.34]) (83.55.163.198) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 22:09:23 +0000 Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Quim Gil To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-BKWWivCcc2A9dMiCc/lk" Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 00:09:23 +0200 Message-Id: <1150582163.5117.119.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.489 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=1.110, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -1.489 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, Mark Galassi X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 22:17:36 -0000 --=-BKWWivCcc2A9dMiCc/lk Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El ds 17 de 06 del 2006 a les 15:55 -0400, en/na Richard Stallman va escriure: > Federico> 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. >=20 > Unless you're looking for kernel hackers, > please make that "GNU/Linux literate". In fact, in this case it would be most accurate to say "Preferably free software literate", since the skills we require from this administrator are focused on the usage of office/desktop applications. Maybe we should have simply asked for someone "preferably GNOME user". :) > You probably want people who know how to edit with Emacs, > write code to compile with GCC, debug with GDB, and call > functions in GLIBC and GTK+. Well, not at all. We are looking for an administrator (accounting, bookkeeping and so on) and not for a system administrator or a developer. Think more on the basic Internet tools, word processors, spreadsheets and accounting applications. About making this preference for free software literacy a requirement, I agree the desirable scenario would be to have an accountant hired by the GNOME Foundation and working with GNOME. But we need an accountant, urgently. Finding candidates is not easy, and the priority is to find the best accountant available. If this person doesn't know perfectly how to use the free tools available s/he can learn. Very different of hiring a great free software user/developer with just regular administrative skills. Help us finding a great administrator with the free software skills needed, and problem solved. :) PS: Richard, looking forward to seeing you next week in Barcelona. --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-BKWWivCcc2A9dMiCc/lk Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBElH2TBEzHYk6x634RAtXIAKCLt4AFrMI1nTSPHx6Jb/37wjIccgCgjaMF xsTDfjS15mNraeZqZMLEn18= =5H0p -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-BKWWivCcc2A9dMiCc/lk-- From csaavedr@wh8.tu-dresden.de Sat Jun 17 19:20:25 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEB543B00AA for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:20:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14208-01 for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:20:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de (B202a.WH8.tu-dresden.de [141.30.225.153]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 945613B0072 for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:20:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from claudio by b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1Fri1j-00079r-O8; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:08:19 +0200 Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Claudio Saavedra To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:08:19 +0200 Message-Id: <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.7.2.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.511 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=1.088, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -1.511 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, Mark Galassi X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:20:25 -0000 On Sat, 2006-06-17 at 15:55 -0400, Richard Stallman wrote: > Federico> 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. > > Unless you're looking for kernel hackers, > please make that "GNU/Linux literate". > You probably want people who know how to edit with Emacs, > write code to compile with GCC, debug with GDB, and call > functions in GLIBC and GTK+. Even when you are right regarding the probably-irrelevant-in-context GNU/Linux issue, it worths noting that the Foundation is looking for an administrator, not a hacker. That is clearly stated in Federico's e-mail title and body. Claudio -- Claudio Saavedra From ross@golder.org Sun Jun 18 01:32:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE8D33B0078 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 01:32:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25300-01 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 01:32:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from black.golder.org (black.golder.org [81.6.249.35]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F5E73B0077 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 01:32:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by black.golder.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 912E14A91; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 06:31:48 +0100 (BST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at golder.org Received: from black.golder.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (black.golder.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N7kkDs0z54xW; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 06:31:46 +0100 (BST) Received: from [10.175.76.210] (unknown [203.170.228.172]) by black.golder.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32A6C3FE2; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 06:31:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Ross Golder To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:30:54 +0700 Message-Id: <1150608655.10699.15.camel@red> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.427 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.614, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.558] X-Spam-Score: -0.427 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, Mark Galassi X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 05:32:52 -0000 On Sat, 2006-06-17 at 15:55 -0400, Richard Stallman wrote: > You probably want people who know how to edit with Emacs, > write code to compile with GCC, debug with GDB, and call > functions in GLIBC and GTK+. I don't think that's exactly what the board had in mind when said they were after an 'administrator'. I think the requirement was to be computer literate in the sense of being able to use 'normal' user-based applications, such as word processors and spreadsheets, to manage the day-to-day running of the foundation. If they're handy with Emacs, GCC and the rest, they'd probably be wasted on doing the admin job described ;) -- Ross From rms@gnu.org Sun Jun 18 12:27:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09B433B08DE for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:27:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02641-10 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:27:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F22B23B0739 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:27:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1Fs06n-0005PA-9D; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:26:45 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Alan Cox In-reply-to: <1150582808.10649.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> (message from Alan Cox on Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:20:08 +0100) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150582808.10649.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-Id: Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:26:45 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.553 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.047, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.553 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 16:27:41 -0000 Linux is a trademark in the USA. The use of GNU/Linux without indicating the trademark is inappropriately confusing the registered mark. I could ask lawyers whether you are right, but I think there is no need to ask them unless someone makes a legal complaint. The FSF has never received one. The system as used today is basically GNU, but Linux is also an important component. We call it "GNU/Linux" partly so as to give the developers of Linux a share of the credit for the combination. If the developers of Linux prefer not to receive this share of the credit, they need only say so publicly; then if we stop adding "/Linux", people will understand that in doing so we are responding to their wishes. And last time I checked GNOME was not a GNU project. GNOME is part of the GNU project, but the two questions are independent. From rms@gnu.org Sun Jun 18 12:27:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCE733B0B52 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:27:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02678-07 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:27:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A58EF3B0862 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:27:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1Fs06o-0005PM-L2; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:26:46 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Claudio Saavedra In-reply-to: <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> (message from Claudio Saavedra on Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:08:19 +0200) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> Message-Id: Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:26:46 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.553 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.047, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.553 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 16:27:58 -0000 Even when you are right regarding the probably-irrelevant-in-context GNU/Linux issue, it worths noting that the Foundation is looking for an administrator, not a hacker. That is clearly stated in Federico's e-mail title and body. You're right; I had forgotten that. (I was looking at Mark's message which quoted those lines, not at Federico's message.) I'm sorry for causing some confusion. I ought to have said, Since you're not looking for kernel hackers, please make that "GNU/Linux literate". You probably want someone who knows how to edit with Emacs, do accounting with GNUcash and Gnumeric, operate GNOME, etc. (Quim Gil pointed out that it may be necessary to hire someone who isn't GNU/Linux literate, just to get someone soon. I'm not trying to dispute that question.) From dneary@free.fr Sun Jun 18 20:04:50 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01C193B016D for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:04:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15953-08 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:04:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from postfix1-c.free.fr (postfix1-c.free.fr [213.228.0.79]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C03463B00D9 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:04:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp4-g19.free.fr (smtp4-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.30]) by postfix1-c.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 153F01D0F8CA for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 19:47:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp4-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id B025D54B4D; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:46:55 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:46:51 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 00:04:50 -0000 Richard Stallman wrote: > Since you're not looking for kernel hackers, > please make that "GNU/Linux literate". > You probably want someone who knows how to edit with Emacs, > do accounting with GNUcash and Gnumeric, operate GNOME, etc. > > (Quim Gil pointed out that it may be necessary to hire someone > who isn't GNU/Linux literate, just to get someone soon. > I'm not trying to dispute that question.) In reality, we will likely hire someone who is already competent in the use of free software - but I agree with Quim that this should not be a requirement (obviously (at least to me), *using* free software will be part of the job, where possible). Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Mon Jun 19 02:11:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 126B23B00F5 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 02:11:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27639-03 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 02:11:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DDBF53B0768 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 02:11:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 9391 invoked by uid 0); 19 Jun 2006 03:43:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.34]) (83.57.177.1) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 03:43:17 +0000 Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Quim Gil To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-QZNJhnZwbMcdr5TNaRP4" Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 05:43:17 +0200 Message-Id: <1150688597.5156.27.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.221 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.378, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.221 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 06:11:33 -0000 --=-QZNJhnZwbMcdr5TNaRP4 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El dg 18 de 06 del 2006 a les 12:26 -0400, en/na Richard Stallman va escriure: > (Quim Gil pointed out that it may be necessary to hire someone > who isn't GNU/Linux literate, just to get someone soon. Just to avoid confusion, I didn't meant to hire someone who isn't free software literate to use non-free software tools as a GNOME administrator, but come and learn the usage of the free tools the Foundation is already using (detailed by Jonathan). A good administrator knowing the concepts and knowing to use non-free tools is very likely to learn the usage of the free tools easily. That's all. As Dave has pointed out, we have already at least one candidate able to use the current free tools. --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-QZNJhnZwbMcdr5TNaRP4 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBElh1VBEzHYk6x634RAk/wAJ9NJcxJMd5BaRvAE2lNm76/zlYR7gCfViG9 +4NfH+cpdGBCEPYrHBcIv9o= =rwa9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-QZNJhnZwbMcdr5TNaRP4-- From rms@gnu.org Mon Jun 19 16:09:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D20B3B0D15 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 16:09:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30107-07 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 16:09:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A0613B0217 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 16:09:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1FsQ39-00075Z-0M; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 16:08:43 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: David Neary In-reply-to: <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> (message from David Neary on Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:46:51 +0200) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> Message-Id: Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 16:08:43 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.56 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.040, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.56 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 20:09:41 -0000 In reality, we will likely hire someone who is already competent in the use of free software - but I agree with Quim that this should not be a requirement (obviously (at least to me), *using* free software will be part of the job, where possible). I think the Foundation should absolutely insist on using only free software. That way it will lead by example. From jdub@waugh.id.au Mon Jun 19 22:51:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED0A33B05A6 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:51:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18924-10 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D5A53B0301 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (unknown [81.80.162.93]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CF053C56C for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:50:56 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id F0999410E; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 04:28:04 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 04:28:04 +0200 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation Message-ID: <20060620022804.GB5152@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-25-686 i686 Reply-By: Fri Jun 23 04:26:14 CEST 2006 X-Uptime: 04:26:14 up 8:30, 5 users, load average: 0.02, 0.07, 0.03 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.59 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.009, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.59 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 02:51:52 -0000 > In reality, we will likely hire someone who is already competent in the > use of free software - but I agree with Quim that this should not be a > requirement (obviously (at least to me), *using* free software will be > part of the job, where possible). > > I think the Foundation should absolutely insist on using only free > software. That way it will lead by example. That is not under question. The suggestion Quim made is that having *prior experience* in the use of Free Software need not be necessary - however, the successful applicant will *absolutely* USE Free Software in their role, no questions asked. - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ "The GPL is good. Use it. Don't be silly." - Michael Meeks From dneary@free.fr Tue Jun 20 02:45:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B618A3B0248 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 02:45:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30248-07 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 02:45:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp6.orange.fr (smtp6.orange.fr [193.252.22.25]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41B9C3B0085 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 02:45:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp6.orange.fr (mwinf0604 [172.22.137.26]) by mwinf0610.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 2703A804F6D for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:43:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf0604.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 61BB21C001CE; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:43:18 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060620064318400.61BB21C001CE@mwinf0604.orange.fr Message-ID: <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:43:43 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 06:45:20 -0000 Hi, Richard Stallman wrote: > In reality, we will likely hire someone who is already competent in the > use of free software - but I agree with Quim that this should not be a > requirement (obviously (at least to me), *using* free software will be > part of the job, where possible). > > I think the Foundation should absolutely insist on using only free > software. That way it will lead by example. As Jonathan pointed out, our bank has a website which does some rather evil platform detection, and refuses to run on anything other than IE. So we are obliged to have a Windows instance installed, or we can not use this bank's online services. We have made our issue known, and are investigating changing banks. Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From baris@teamforce.name.tr Tue Jun 20 04:44:28 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B05333B0F52 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 04:44:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03469-07 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 04:44:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nerd.com.tr (unknown [69.60.117.115]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 354883B0F3F for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 04:44:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nerd.com.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52DE578503C; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 05:47:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nerd.com.tr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (nerd.com.tr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06570-08; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 05:47:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (unknown [81.213.157.51]) by nerd.com.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C6AA78503B; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 05:47:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Baris Cicek To: Dave Neary In-Reply-To: <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-PXVkvwvUKTNQvc8SbOVI" Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 11:43:47 +0300 Message-Id: <1150793027.2669.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 (2.6.1-1.fc5.2) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at nerd.com.tr X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.26 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.339, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.26 X-Spam-Level: Cc: mark@galassi.org, rms@gnu.org, foundation-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:44:28 -0000 --=-PXVkvwvUKTNQvc8SbOVI Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That might be a little technical and maybe out of this discussion boundaries but, why instead of making IE run over wine, you use more than necessary non-free software? (ie. Windows, VMWARE). I bet are already paid, but I use wine for IE related stuff, and it "just works". Besides, I find Linux (or GNU/Linux) literate expression a little problematic, because generally people use Computer Literate, and by default thinking it as Windows computer. To overcome this issue, best thing to do might be to call it as Computer Literate, and list the applications that applicant should know like OpenOffice.org and Firefox, gnuCash and even Linux. Once you know this applications, I doubt Linux Desktop learning curve would be steep for any applicant. This way it might solve the problem for those who would not apply for job since they don't know Linux, as people would see themselves as computer literate.=20 On Tue, 2006-06-20 at 08:43 +0200, Dave Neary wrote: > Hi, >=20 > Richard Stallman wrote: > > In reality, we will likely hire someone who is already competent in= the > > use of free software - but I agree with Quim that this should not b= e a > > requirement (obviously (at least to me), *using* free software will= be > > part of the job, where possible). > >=20 > > I think the Foundation should absolutely insist on using only free > > software. That way it will lead by example. >=20 > As Jonathan pointed out, our bank has a website which does some rather > evil platform detection, and refuses to run on anything other than IE. > So we are obliged to have a Windows instance installed, or we can not > use this bank's online services. We have made our issue known, and are > investigating changing banks. >=20 > Cheers, > Dave. >=20 --=-PXVkvwvUKTNQvc8SbOVI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEl7VD62fLHU++kcURAhtHAJ9UHIjP9z0fmc8pWeouqiuiYqpLQQCgpRsS tMw7PLzygujdDmZirBXFPkc= =t2gV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-PXVkvwvUKTNQvc8SbOVI-- From rms@gnu.org Tue Jun 20 13:56:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 728673B0302 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:56:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01985-06 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:56:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EF1A3B01C9 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:56:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1FskSW-0002Fm-Nl; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:56:16 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Dave Neary In-reply-to: <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> (message from Dave Neary on Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:43:43 +0200) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> Message-Id: Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:56:16 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.562 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.038, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.562 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 17:56:47 -0000 As Jonathan pointed out, our bank has a website which does some rather evil platform detection, and refuses to run on anything other than IE. This is worse than I realized. The Foundation is not only using user-subjugating software, it is using a bank that pressures its customers to do so. That makes two reasons to stop. Running Internet Explorer on GNU/Linux using Wine, which someone suggested, is not a real solution because IE itself is proprietary software. That approach avoids Windows, but doesn't avoid IE. Until you find another bank, you could stop dealing with the bank on line, and do business with it the old-fashioned way, with paper, phone calls, and/or visits to the bank office. It may be inconvenient, but it freedom is worth a small sacrifice. However, another approach is worth thinking about. What is the obstacle to programming a free browser so that it pretends to be IE? That would be the really desirable solution. What bank is it? Maybe the FSF and the GNOME Foundation can organize a pressure campaign for the bank to change its policies. From jrb@redhat.com Tue Jun 20 14:14:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FD993B0302 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03318-07 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [66.187.233.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9EA73B002A for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5KIEXeM012200; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:33 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (devserv.devel.redhat.com [172.16.58.1]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5KIEXXl005041; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:33 -0400 Received: from dhcp83-106.boston.redhat.com (dhcp83-106.boston.redhat.com [172.16.83.106]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5KIEXLi014411; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Jonathan Blandford To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-TDVQMLZFU5CgYyjlCe+L" Organization: Red Hat, Inc. Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:43 -0400 Message-Id: <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.2 (2.6.2-1.fc5.5) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.585 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.585 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 18:14:51 -0000 --=-TDVQMLZFU5CgYyjlCe+L Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable *shrug* Online banking is a new feature for this bank. We told them we were planning on switching banks if they didn't support Firefox or other browsers, and they said that they would look into it. I wouldn't expect them to support it overnight, and given the expense of switching banks, I wouldn't want to switch immediately. I don't know what a 'reasonable time' is for this, but we are probably just approaching it. Additionally, if you recall, the original purpose of this thread was to help find an administrator for the GNOME Foundation. I would expect the new admin to switch banks if we can't use Firefox or epiphany, but we're not exactly operating on all cylinders right now. Thanks, -Jonathan --=-TDVQMLZFU5CgYyjlCe+L Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEmDsSEXFTqNjUZNwRAk3oAKCr9C48KXFinXyWgIoIWP4UHrpfLgCdFdAI cvXosbkKBwWsgF8uQHhkKDA= =puHs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-TDVQMLZFU5CgYyjlCe+L-- From rms@gnu.org Tue Jun 20 19:32:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 822E23B038F for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:32:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24251-01 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:32:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D1E83B03D8 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:32:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1FspiH-0005lF-Iv; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:32:53 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Jonathan Blandford In-reply-to: <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> (message from Jonathan Blandford on Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:43 -0400) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-Id: Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:32:53 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.564 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.036, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.564 X-Spam-Level: Cc: dneary@free.fr, foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 23:32:56 -0000 Online banking is a new feature for this bank. We told them we were planning on switching banks if they didn't support Firefox or other browsers, and they said that they would look into it. I wouldn't expect them to support it overnight, It would be counterproductive to hurry them to decide; and if they decide to switch, they need time to do the work. However, that doesn't mean the GNOME Foundation needs to use non-free software. Since on-line banking is a new feature for them, you can do without it while waiting. Accepting inconveniences rather than using non-free software is a great way to show by example that freedom is important. From ross@golder.org Tue Jun 20 21:29:15 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97CDF3B0357 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 21:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29296-09 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 21:29:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from black.golder.org (black.golder.org [81.6.249.35]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D70683B043E for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 21:29:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by black.golder.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5740940DD; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:29:12 +0100 (BST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at golder.org Received: from black.golder.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (black.golder.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nWXZNpqFnBff; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:29:09 +0100 (BST) Received: from red (unknown [125.24.70.244]) by black.golder.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6E9A40AB; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:29:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Ross Golder To: Jonathan Blandford In-Reply-To: <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:28:24 +0700 Message-Id: <1150853304.5559.28.camel@red> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.536 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.063, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.536 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , mark@galassi.org, rms@gnu.org, foundation-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 01:29:15 -0000 On Tue, 2006-06-20 at 14:14 -0400, Jonathan Blandford wrote: > *shrug* > > Online banking is a new feature for this bank. We told them we were > planning on switching banks if they didn't support Firefox or other > browsers, and they said that they would look into it. I wouldn't expect > them to support it overnight, and given the expense of switching banks, > I wouldn't want to switch immediately. It shouldn't be hard to find a bank that does support our needs, open an account with them, transfer the money from the old account, close the old account, update some docs/notes. I can't see it costing more than a few hours and maybe a few dollars. A reasonably motivated administrator should have that done in a day or two, I'd have thought, then they won't have to sit around waiting for our bank to fix their systems. I'm curious as to why the account was opened with the current bank in the first place, without a basic check that their on-line facilities were suitable. It seems a bit odd. I'm not looking to assign blame to anyone, just to make sure it's a mistake learned from and something similar won't happen again at the foundation's cost. I'm also curious about who the current bank is :) > Additionally, if you recall, the original purpose of this thread was to > help find an administrator for the GNOME Foundation. I would expect the > new admin to switch banks if we can't use Firefox or epiphany, but we're > not exactly operating on all cylinders right now. > A good first job for them then. Also, would it be possible for them to write a brief monthly report to the foundation-list about their month's activities and expenses etc. It might help make things a little more transparent/accountable. -- Ross From mark@galassi.org Sat Jun 17 19:01:04 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F6E53B0080; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:01:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13804-04; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:01:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agora.rdrop.com (agora.rdrop.com [199.26.172.34]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A04713B00B2; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:01:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (67-42-116-199.albq.qwest.net [67.42.116.199]) (authenticated bits=0) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id k5HMCnLH009742 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:12:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@galassi.org) To: Jonathan Blandford Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578597.2841.94.camel@peach> From: Mark Galassi Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 16:12:38 -0600 In-Reply-To: <1150578597.2841.94.camel@peach> (Jonathan Blandford's message of "Sat, 17 Jun 2006 17:09:57 -0400") Message-ID: <87k67fh1nt.fsf@galassi.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (agora.rdrop.com [199.26.172.34]); Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:12:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.465 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.465 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:19:47 -0400 Cc: foundation-announce@gnome.org, foundation-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:01:04 -0000 >> I hope that it will be a firm requirement that only free s/w be >> used to run the Foundation's administration. Jonathan> Right now, we use free tools to run almost all the Jonathan> foundation's books. [...] I'm glad to hear this. I'm always embarassed when I see managers using Windows and PowerPoint to present the advantages of "open source". Although I guess their sense of self-irony should be applauded. From arieltenor@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 15:09:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 068543B01C9 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:09:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07446-06 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:09:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.169]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BE073B01AB for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:09:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id o2so3159054uge for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.58.11 with SMTP id g11mr2888428hua; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.70.5 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:09:48 -0500 From: "Ariel Rios" To: rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.34 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.260, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.34 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:19:47 -0400 Cc: Dave Neary , foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:09:54 -0000 > However, another approach is worth thinking about. What is the > obstacle to programming a free browser so that it pretends to be IE? > That would be the really desirable solution. I faced a similar issue with a Mexican bank that only supported Explorer. I downloaded the great User Agent Switcher extension for Firefox so I can use the site. Maybe that can also help for this specific bank. ariel From dneary@free.fr Wed Jun 21 02:20:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE14A3B0ACC for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:20:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12587-05 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:20:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2-g19.free.fr (smtp2-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.28]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A34173B07CA for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:20:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp2-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8471730DA; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:20:13 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4498E519.1090207@free.fr> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:20:09 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ross Golder Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1150853304.5559.28.camel@red> In-Reply-To: <1150853304.5559.28.camel@red> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org, Jonathan Blandford , rms@gnu.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 06:20:21 -0000 Hi, Ross Golder wrote: > It shouldn't be hard to find a bank that does support our needs, open an > account with them, transfer the money from the old account, close the > old account, update some docs/notes. I can't see it costing more than a > few hours and maybe a few dollars. A reasonably motivated administrator > should have that done in a day or two, I'd have thought, then they won't > have to sit around waiting for our bank to fix their systems. Update our records in various invoicing systems, go through paypal confirmation with the new account, get a credit card set up, change the credit card number with various suppliers, ... Changing banks, as anyone who has done so can tell you, is a pain - you end up finding out months afterwards that people you hadn't thought of still have your old bank details for electronic payments. > I'm also curious > about who the current bank is :) It's no secret - it's Silicon Valley Bank. I have no idea how or why they were chosen. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Wed Jun 21 03:32:26 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C367B3B073E for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 03:32:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17098-07 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 03:32:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 265943B0302 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 03:32:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 32359 invoked by uid 0); 21 Jun 2006 07:32:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.103]) (213.96.45.171) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 07:32:23 +0000 Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Quim Gil To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-9NcbC9D9ObPWb6tVSAvd" Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:17:02 +0200 Message-Id: <1150849022.5111.76.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.092 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.320, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_06_12=0.827] X-Spam-Score: -2.092 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 07:32:27 -0000 --=-9NcbC9D9ObPWb6tVSAvd Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El dt 20 de 06 del 2006 a les 13:56 -0400, en/na Richard Stallman va escriure: > Until you find another bank, you could stop dealing with the bank on > line, and do business with it the old-fashioned way, with paper, phone > calls, and/or visits to the bank office. It may be inconvenient, but > it freedom is worth a small sacrifice. Just to note that things are more complicated than this, applying your recommendation now would put GUADEC 2006 at risk. --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-9NcbC9D9ObPWb6tVSAvd Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEmI/+BEzHYk6x634RAli9AJ0Yl9ujZ51x8OevVFK6Od/EFrrVJgCgoRr9 /W9wXSuuUwhdaf48E+BWTbg= =2S6J -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-9NcbC9D9ObPWb6tVSAvd-- From rms@gnu.org Wed Jun 21 13:03:43 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9037F3B00AE for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:03:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23401-05 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:03:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EDA03B02D1 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:03:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1Ft67A-0003cy-2e; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:03:40 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Quim Gil In-reply-to: <1150849022.5111.76.camel@localhost> (message from Quim Gil on Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:17:02 +0200) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> <1150849022.5111.76.camel@localhost> Message-Id: Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:03:40 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.566 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.034, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.566 X-Spam-Level: Cc: dneary@free.fr, foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:03:43 -0000 Just to note that things are more complicated than this, applying your recommendation now would put GUADEC 2006 at risk. GUADEC will be finished a week from now; after a few more weeks go by, it surely won't be hard to use pen and paper for the remaining bills. From murrayc@murrayc.com Thu Jun 22 06:07:43 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E8513B035E for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 06:07:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14936-06 for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 06:07:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com (webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com [66.33.201.159]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC4DB3B0254 for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 06:07:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.murrayc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E839A2C203 for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 03:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 194.138.18.132 (proxying for unknown) (SquirrelMail authenticated user murrayc@murrayc.com) by webmail.murrayc.com with HTTP; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 12:07:39 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <16193.194.138.18.132.1150970859.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 12:07:39 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Code Of Conduct draft #2 From: "Murray Cumming" To: foundation-list@gnome.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.56 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.039, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.56 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 10:07:43 -0000 Here's my latest draft of the Code Of Conduct, or whatever we end up calling it: http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct I think the main content is done. More text would make the whole thing less ineresting. But I'm having particular difficulty writing the summary. Ideally it should be short, snappy, and inspirational. Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From vuntz@gnome.org Thu Jun 22 11:20:59 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7440A3B0689; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 11:20:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05338-02; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 11:20:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fennas.vuntz.net (fennas.vuntz.net [82.228.182.88]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C25A13B0495; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 11:20:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by fennas.vuntz.net (Postfix, from userid 33) id 6E19D112693; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 17:20:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 129.88.38.77 (SquirrelMail authenticated user vuntz) by vuntz.net with HTTP; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 17:20:56 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <50469.129.88.38.77.1150989656.squirrel@vuntz.net> Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 17:20:56 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Intel joins the GNOME Foundation's Advisory Board From: "Vincent Untz" To: foundation-announce@gnome.org, foundation-list@gnome.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.561 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.038, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.561 X-Spam-Level: Cc: advisory-board@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 15:20:59 -0000 The GNOME Foundation is welcoming Intel as an Advisory Board member. This is part of Intel's increasing commitment to GNOME and to the free software desktop. We are delighted to have Intel on board: it will help us continue our bet of combining the passion of the GNOME community with the need for quality, stability and long term plans of big players who are increasingly interested and involved in free software development. With Intel joining, the Advisory Board member now consists of twelve established industry companies and projects. More informations on the Foundation's Advisory Board is available at: http://foundation.gnome.org/about/ Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. From waldo.bastian@intel.com Thu Jun 22 13:26:06 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABAE43B0785; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 13:26:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13095-04; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 13:26:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fmsmga101-1.fm.intel.com (mga01.intel.com [192.55.52.88]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F9093B0731; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 13:26:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fmsmga001.fm.intel.com ([10.253.24.23]) by fmsmga101-1.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 22 Jun 2006 10:25:59 -0700 Received: from orsmsx335.jf.intel.com (HELO orsmsx335.amr.corp.intel.com) ([10.22.226.40]) by fmsmga001.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 22 Jun 2006 10:23:13 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.06,166,1149490800"; d="scan'208"; a="56897970:sNHT90202169617" Received: from orsmsx409.amr.corp.intel.com ([192.168.65.58]) by orsmsx335.amr.corp.intel.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 22 Jun 2006 10:23:12 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Intel joins the GNOME Foundation's Advisory Board Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 10:23:11 -0700 Message-ID: <8AEB79DC01BE994D8DE3FD02FA5B475B03DFAAAE@orsmsx409> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Intel joins the GNOME Foundation's Advisory Board thread-index: AcaWD46K6AKg5uJfSieruaiGax8vKQAAhTNA From: "Bastian, Waldo" To: "Vincent Untz" , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Jun 2006 17:23:12.0881 (UTC) FILETIME=[8A39EE10:01C69620] X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.56 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.039, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.56 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 15:54:11 -0400 Cc: advisory-board@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 17:26:07 -0000 >The GNOME Foundation is welcoming Intel as an Advisory Board member. >This is part of Intel's increasing commitment to GNOME and to the >free software desktop. > >We are delighted to have Intel on board: it will help us continue our >bet of combining the passion of the GNOME community with the need for >quality, stability and long term plans of big players who are >increasingly interested and involved in free software development. > >With Intel joining, the Advisory Board member now consists of twelve >established industry companies and projects. More informations on the >Foundation's Advisory Board is available at: > > http://foundation.gnome.org/about/ > > >Vincent Thanks Vincent, It has been a pleasure working with the GNOME community as part of Intel's OSDL and LSB efforts, and I hope that being on the GNOME Advisory Board will create an even more productive working relationship between us and the GNOME community. As you have observed, coming from a KDE background, it has at times been a challenge for me to zero in on the right people in the GNOME community to engage on matters of mutual interest. Our participation in the Advisory Board should make that process far easier. Through OSDL and LSB, bridging the gaps between industry leading Linux desktop environments for the benefit of users and application developers has been an important goal for us. We very much appreciate the opportunity work more closely with the GNOME community to realize that goal. I look forward to meeting with all of you next week at GUADEC. Waldo Bastian Linux Client Architect - Client Linux Foundation Technology Channel Platform Solutions Group Intel Corporation - http://www.intel.com/go/linux OSDL DTL Tech Board Chairman From the prior art department: compare with RFC 2026. I think the time for review is too short. It might be OK for people who are working full time on Gnome, but it won't be enough for people who have another job. It's possible that somebody who isn't directly involved in Gnome would want to review the proposal (because somebody who is involved asked him/her to, for example), but it might be impossible on such schedule. Furteher, if the RFP author thinks the reviewing period should be longer, then it should be longer. So I propose something like "the reviewing period will be determined by the RFP owner, but it shuld not be shorter than two weeks." That's for "fast-track approval, if no controversy" section. Other time constraints should also be at least two weeks. I don't see why several persons couldn't author an RFP. I don't know if that should be explicitely written. An objection to "A small group of relevant maintainers finalizes the RFP." It should be "A small group of interested parties." One doesn't have to be Gnome module maintainer in order to posess usefull technical knowledge about the problem in question. I don't particularly like the voting stuff. The general tone implies that conflicts are expected and that consensus will be an exception. But if you want to go with rules like that, then there should be no gray areas. For example, the "List of responsible maintainers" section ends with: "The board will resolve all disputes regarding the list of responsible maintainers." How is the board going to do that? On what schedule? The results of board decision will obviously be public. But is the board required to write a public explanation? And why voting in the first place? Shouldn't the board be able to reach a consensus on this issue? > Two example topics we might use for a test run of the procedure are > this -config issue, and the sound server/API issue. Hm. How about testing it on the "GNOME Enhancement Procedure" proposal itself? -- .-. .-. Are you crying? No, I'm bleeding. (_ \ / _) | dave@arsdigita.com | From gnome-foundation-list@m.gmane.org Thu Jun 1 05:42:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08DFB3B0CE0 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 05:42:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23565-02 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 05:42:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 821AE3B0D78 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 05:20:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from root by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1FljLW-0003fl-Ej for foundation-list@gnome.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:20:02 +0200 Received: from 213.91.219.2 ([213.91.219.2]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:20:02 +0200 Received: from yavor by 213.91.219.2 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:20:02 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: foundation-list@gnome.org From: Yavor Doganov Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:58:47 +0300 Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440605300709u669c5da2sa352f1f5fedf2b06@mail.gmail.com> <14439.194.138.18.131.1149000460.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060530151633.GB28961@bridgewayconsulting.com.au> <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> <177e83dd0605301003h77a01816hed9a3a1afb849709@mail.gmail.com> <447E0013.9030307@gnome.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.91.219.2 User-Agent: Pan/0.14.2.91 (As She Crawled Across the Table (Debian GNU/Linux)) X-What_are_we_fighting_for: NO SOFTWARE PATENTS! NO BANANA REPUBLIC! Sender: news X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.542 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.441, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=1.5, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.542 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 09:42:40 -0000 On Wed, 31 May 2006 16:44:03 -0400, Tristan Van Berkom wrote: > GNOME is Free Software and part of the GNU project [...] > If the above statement is indeed true, I wonder where any misrepresentations > are, if they can be rectified and what can be done in general to improve > the overall interpretation of what the GNOME project is. If you read Planet GNOME and some of the mailing lists, you'll notice that many developers use the term "Open Source" and call the operating system "Linux", instead of GNU or GNU/Linux. Some of them were even excited when a popular non-free software was relicensed recently, allowing easier installation by the users, but still remaining non-free. If the core developers and project participants do not value and stand firm behind the ideals of the GNU Project and the Free Software Movement, you cannot expect that these ideals will touch the hearts of other people, particularly the "minority" groups in question. -- JID: doganov@jabber.minus273.org From jdub@waugh.id.au Thu Jun 1 06:25:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A33F3B0141 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:25:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26622-08 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:25:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF6F73B008B for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:25:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (unknown [203.217.18.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC7463CB6A for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 20:24:59 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 966C440B4; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 20:01:27 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 20:01:27 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060601100126.GA5214@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440605300709u669c5da2sa352f1f5fedf2b06@mail.gmail.com> <14439.194.138.18.131.1149000460.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060530151633.GB28961@bridgewayconsulting.com.au> <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> <177e83dd0605301003h77a01816hed9a3a1afb849709@mail.gmail.com> <447E0013.9030307@gnome.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 Reply-By: Sun Jun 4 19:54:21 EST 2006 X-Uptime: 19:54:21 up 51 min, 6 users, load average: 0.27, 0.40, 0.40 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 10:25:03 -0000 > If you read Planet GNOME and some of the mailing lists, you'll notice that > many developers use the term "Open Source" and call the operating system > "Linux", instead of GNU or GNU/Linux. Some of them were even excited when > a popular non-free software was relicensed recently, allowing easier > installation by the users, but still remaining non-free. > > If the core developers and project participants do not value and stand > firm behind the ideals of the GNU Project and the Free Software Movement, > you cannot expect that these ideals will touch the hearts of other people, > particularly the "minority" groups in question. Oh man, come on, this is silly behaviour. GNOME developers are *passionate* about Free Software, fiercely so. We're here to make sure that Free Software gets into the hands of normal users, not just geeks. However, we *do not* have our minds held hostage by dogma, and dogma doesn't drive freedom for *anyone*. We're all consenting adults, we can make our own decisions about what's good and what's not - but don't think for a minute that GNOME, as an organisation and social group is not pursuing a fierce Free Software agenda. - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2007: Sydney, Australia http://lca2007.linux.org.au/ "(Hint: IRC clients don't usually do DVD and VCD playback)." - Bastien Nocera From anne@oestergaard.nu Thu Jun 1 07:24:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D0113B00EE for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 07:24:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30376-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 07:23:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero0.cybercity.dk (cicero0.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.52]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D50F63B0119 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 07:23:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero0.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68F86678C70 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 13:23:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 164FB74FA04 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 13:23:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 22398 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2006 11:23:54 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 1 Jun 2006 11:23:54 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Bill Haneman In-Reply-To: <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149065540.5127.117.camel@localhost> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:23:54 +0200 Message-Id: <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.533 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.066, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.533 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:24:00 -0000 ons, 31 05 2006 kl. 20:38 +0100, skrev Bill Haneman: > On Wed, 2006-05-31 at 19:25, Tristan Van Berkom wrote: > > > Nobody will be driven away by that, people might be driven away by > > us stating that "you now are part of a community with a code of conduct". Actually if persons are driven away by not being able to accept rules of good conduct or The GNOME Ethics as we might prefer to call them then so be it. IMHO. > I don't agree. Every community has a code of conduct, implied or > explicit, IMO. Anyhow, there's no real enforcement mechanism, so I > don't see this as a realistic concern. > > ANY change or statement with a "policy" feel carries the risk of > alienating *somebody*, but that doesn't mean that embracing anarchy is > better. I have personally had the feeling over the past couple of years that the general atmosphere in the GNOME community has hardened. I joined the community in 2001 when I meet you all at GUADEC in Copenhagen. My reason for doing so was that it was the kindest most helpful group of people (although mostly white western males) that I had met in FLOSS. I think that being inventive is not equal to being anarchistic. Anarchistic is not a virtue in my book. Besides I find that it is not clever not to be able to accept the normal way of defining a well functioning democracy for all. Social rules and ethics will definitely be a competition parameter also for peoples personal choice of software now and in the future. > As an aside, I think the gender issue is important, and probably does > reflect some "cultural" issues within our community (GNOME and the FOSS > community in general). Members of a community rarely understand the > aspects of their culture that cause others to be alienated or > disinterested, even if they understand why they themselves feel included > and motivated. I fully agree with Bill and others here and I think we have to establish a gender action plan within GNOME, Ubuntu etc. We have got the opportunity to start this good trend! I do not say this to start a new long debat in this tread. But it has become obvious that the 1% participation of women in FLOSS is embarrassing and we need to have a look at why this is the case and make some cultural changes. I know that the Computer Science Department at the University of Gothenburg in Sweden has a gender action plan: http://www.informatik.gu.se/dokument/dokument.xsp?group=jamstalldhet&menu=org I think that many other universities and even GNOME and Ubuntu could get a lot of inspiration here. (Provided it gets translated from Swedish into a language you understand.) One of the purposes is to get more women in to research and teaching. Changing the mono culture is a vital goal. But to summon up what has happened in this debate: Most of the persons who has expressed themselves in this tread are positive to Murrays suggestion. So I think we should go for it. We might call it GNOME Ethics if "rules" has a disturbing ring to it. Anne From murrayc@murrayc.com Thu Jun 1 08:03:32 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1112C3B0D51 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:03:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00538-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:03:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com (webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com [66.33.201.159]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3998D3B0D3C for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:02:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.murrayc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D998A2CDA7; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 04:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 194.138.18.131 (proxying for unknown) (SquirrelMail authenticated user murrayc@murrayc.com) by webmail.murrayc.com with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 13:56:01 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> In-Reply-To: <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149065540.5127.117.camel@localhost> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 13:56:01 +0200 (CEST) From: "Murray Cumming" To: Anne =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.556 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.043, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.556 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 12:03:32 -0000 Anne wrote: [snip] > I do not say this to start a new long debat in this tread. But it has > become obvious that the 1% participation of women in FLOSS is > embarrassing and we need to have a look at why this is the case and make > some cultural changes. > > I know that the Computer Science Department at the University of > Gothenburg in Sweden has a gender action plan: > http://www.informatik.gu.se/dokument/dokument.xsp?group=jamstalldhet&menu=org > > I think that many other universities and even GNOME and Ubuntu could get > a lot of inspiration here. (Provided it gets translated from Swedish > into a language you understand.) [snip] Realistically, this plans needs to be written by you. Others will help you with it, but you need to create it and drive it. As a start, I think we have some definite things to try, based on the Flosspolls report: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-women-list/2006-May/msg00001.html At the least, it would be great to read the policies or plans that other science/technical organisations have created, particularly if they have proven successful already. For instance, a list of web addresses, or summaries. In English. You seem like the most well-informed person to do this. Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From luis.villa@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 08:13:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15D1F3B0132 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:13:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01060-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:13:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.200]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 043DA3B012D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:13:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so231597wxd for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 05:13:23 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=M7bRKyNesxOOt+gZaYV1MUy25dv6JMJkayJ3gFzHzPJvfGr3qCJftkHHnjf3gi9gUXLf0cU44gY2K3koUsPKQanX3t6HgTiUZez4vJLgj1VLW5Fh47YL+5aBb+rn/f63MCOnH2lfFwkirZJpcROmSo+ATikyCcARXoGuw4jXOAk= Received: by 10.70.69.8 with SMTP id r8mr613225wxa; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 05:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.2 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 05:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:13:23 -0400 From: "Luis Villa" To: "Murray Cumming" In-Reply-To: <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 12:13:27 -0000 On 6/1/06, Murray Cumming wrote: > Anne wrote: > [snip] > > I do not say this to start a new long debat in this tread. But it has > > become obvious that the 1% participation of women in FLOSS is > > embarrassing and we need to have a look at why this is the case and make > > some cultural changes. > > > > I know that the Computer Science Department at the University of > > Gothenburg in Sweden has a gender action plan: > > http://www.informatik.gu.se/dokument/dokument.xsp?group=jamstalldhet&menu=org > > > > I think that many other universities and even GNOME and Ubuntu could get > > a lot of inspiration here. (Provided it gets translated from Swedish > > into a language you understand.) > [snip] > > Realistically, this plans needs to be written by you. Others will help you > with it, but you need to create it and drive it. Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by someone with such experience. Luis From murrayc@murrayc.com Thu Jun 1 08:39:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4C7A3B0125 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:39:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02694-03 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:39:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com (webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com [66.33.201.159]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D48423B00FF for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:39:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.murrayc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1850D2D23D; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 05:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 194.138.18.131 (proxying for unknown) (SquirrelMail authenticated user murrayc@murrayc.com) by webmail.murrayc.com with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:33:29 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:33:29 +0200 (CEST) From: "Murray Cumming" To: "Luis Villa" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.557 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.042, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.557 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , Murray Cumming , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 12:39:50 -0000 > On 6/1/06, Murray Cumming wrote: >> Anne wrote: >> [snip] >> > I do not say this to start a new long debat in this tread. But it has >> > become obvious that the 1% participation of women in FLOSS is >> > embarrassing and we need to have a look at why this is the case and >> make >> > some cultural changes. >> > >> > I know that the Computer Science Department at the University of >> > Gothenburg in Sweden has a gender action plan: >> > http://www.informatik.gu.se/dokument/dokument.xsp?group=jamstalldhet&menu=org >> > >> > I think that many other universities and even GNOME and Ubuntu could >> get >> > a lot of inspiration here. (Provided it gets translated from Swedish >> > into a language you understand.) >> [snip] >> >> Realistically, this plans needs to be written by you. Others will help >> you >> with it, but you need to create it and drive it. > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > someone with such experience. Hmm, how about people working together? It just seems that the person who most most obviously wants this should be the person trying to make it happen. Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Thu Jun 1 08:50:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E761A3B00AB for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:50:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03032-07 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:50:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E8C033B0090 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:50:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from turing.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.16] helo=turing.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 1 Jun 2006 13:50:48 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 13:50:48 +0100 (IST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440605300709u669c5da2sa352f1f5fedf2b06@mail.gmail.com> <14439.194.138.18.131.1149000460.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060530151633.GB28961@bridgewayconsulting.com.au> <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> <177e83dd0605301003h77a01816hed9a3a1afb849709@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 12:50:52 -0000 On Wed, 31 May 2006, Richard Stallman wrote: > Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 15:13:33 -0400 > From: Richard Stallman > To: zuh@iki.fi > Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org > Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct > > So I would definitely agree that given an idea of contributing (code), > women will easily ask who will pay for it where men might not. Maybe > they consider open source more as "working" than as a hobby or a way > social networking or even as a way to educate oneself. > > Perhaps this is a consequence of presenting GNOME as an "open source" > activity. That term excludes the idealism of free software, and > invites people to look at the matter in purely practical terms -- > which is what these women then do. > > Perhaps they would understand better why it's worth spending time > unpaid on our campaign if you tell them that this is the Free Software > Movement, and that the goal of our campaign is freedom for us and for > everyone. If greater clarity and emphasis on freedom is the goal why not say _Freedom Software_ and avoid the abiguity which in part lead other to come up with different terminology? -- Alan From dneary@free.fr Thu Jun 1 09:03:11 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 571E73B01BA for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:03:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04032-05 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:03:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp12.wanadoo.fr (smtp12.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.20]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD9103B01B4 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:03:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf1202.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 05B421C000A2; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:03:06 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060601130307236.05B421C000A2@mwinf1202.orange.fr Message-ID: <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:03:04 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (Windows/20060308) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Luis Villa References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:03:11 -0000 Hi, Luis Villa wrote: > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > someone with such experience. That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a developer from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women involved in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who's better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From luis.villa@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 09:05:29 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB9D83B0213 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:05:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04316-06 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:05:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.198]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 631D63B01F3 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:05:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so240207wxd for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:05:26 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=BYK8lFiLJO2Ne9nZnBwCpaSMHLj/eF+Yve99+fxle95gejqE1Awkf+irqEgrFDLJVaJXbiziS8zWvNXLmkJGfP4p3kJQf/tOBDd7r6d+KgMAdM+DqPT7lTQAgS1L4cgq4N9+8G0/kBVIC9CUKcncJ4u+u6lMyAlrSBwHZV3EH34= Received: by 10.70.6.1 with SMTP id 1mr693092wxf; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:05:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.2 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:05:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:05:26 -0400 From: "Luis Villa" To: "Dave Neary" In-Reply-To: <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:05:30 -0000 On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: > > Hi, > > Luis Villa wrote: > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > > someone with such experience. > > That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a developer > from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women involved > in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct > discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who's > better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? A female geek? Luis From jdub@waugh.id.au Thu Jun 1 09:08:05 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2BE63B0C0E for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:08:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04423-09 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:08:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1F8C3B0134 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:08:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (unknown [203.217.18.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7BA53CDC4 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 23:07:59 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0CBAD40B4; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 23:07:48 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 23:07:48 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060601130748.GE5203@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440605300709u669c5da2sa352f1f5fedf2b06@mail.gmail.com> <14439.194.138.18.131.1149000460.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060530151633.GB28961@bridgewayconsulting.com.au> <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> <177e83dd0605301003h77a01816hed9a3a1afb849709@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: Reply-By: Sun Jun 4 23:06:25 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 23:06:25 up 2:59, 5 users, load average: 3.75, 2.14, 1.64 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:08:05 -0000 > If greater clarity and emphasis on freedom is the goal why not say > _Freedom Software_ and avoid the abiguity which in part lead other to come > up with different terminology? This is not a discussion for this list - please take this off-list if you wish to pursue it. Thanks, - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ From baris@teamforce.name.tr Thu Jun 1 09:27:37 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DD163B016D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:27:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05899-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:27:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nerd.com.tr (nerd.com.tr [69.60.117.115]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC3303B0077 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:27:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nerd.com.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1406B784E6A; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:31:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nerd.com.tr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (nerd.com.tr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15072-01; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:30:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (unknown [81.213.157.51]) by nerd.com.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94F7C784E68; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:30:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Baris Cicek To: Luis Villa In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-nF1xqzLT528vovi3vaHu" Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 16:27:19 +0300 Message-Id: <1149168439.2507.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 (2.6.0-1) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at nerd.com.tr X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.227 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.372, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.227 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:27:37 -0000 --=-nF1xqzLT528vovi3vaHu Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Actually, it should be someone who is able to detect possible obstacles that put Asians or Women out of GNOME (or in general Free Software). I doubt that anyone have any emprical study about that. But is it harsh and rude behavior of developers or the community? Or technical limits? Or even communication problems? (ie. English knowledge or something).=20 First thing is to come up with a reasonable problems that new comers would come across. And later people should follow a pathway to get rid of these obstacles.=20 Actually Code of Conduct may only be successful for new comers if we detect those problems correctly.=20 For that reason, ideas of the fresh community members is more important. If you're experienced then either you did not have any problem or you might even forgot those problems you'd encountered in past. Though, you might still remember old days, but chances are low.=20 IMHO, Code Of Conduct (or GNOME Ethics) should be written for that very reason. Experienced members of the community might and would forget the problems for newcomers. Something should remind them. But still first thing to do is to detect obstacles first. Else, outcome of this work, won't get further than saying "Be nice to each other" with rhetoric.=20 On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 09:05 -0400, Luis Villa wrote: > On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > Luis Villa wrote: > > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > > > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > > > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > > > someone with such experience. > > > > That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a developer > > from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women involve= d > > in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct > > discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who'= s > > better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? >=20 > A female geek? >=20 > Luis > _______________________________________________ > foundation-list mailing list > foundation-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list --=-nF1xqzLT528vovi3vaHu Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEfus362fLHU++kcURAlt/AKDgbHg3XB0HAS5zZDe4MiJSIFoVsACfR8wZ oEU7oK/r87izEkFQB/pm6dU= =aEcr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-nF1xqzLT528vovi3vaHu-- From anne@oestergaard.nu Thu Jun 1 09:32:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A2083B0D3A for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:32:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06362-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:32:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero0.cybercity.dk (cicero0.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.52]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 928443B0C49 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:32:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero0.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 317E1679467 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:32:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id CDC4774FAF2 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:32:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 23827 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2006 13:32:44 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 1 Jun 2006 13:32:44 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Luis Villa In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:32:43 +0200 Message-Id: <1149168764.6894.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.533 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.066, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.533 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:32:56 -0000 tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 09:05 -0400, skrev Luis Villa: > On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > Luis Villa wrote: > > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > > > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > > > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > > > someone with such experience. > > > > That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a developer > > from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women involved > > in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct > > discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who's > > better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? > > A female geek? I would like to hear your definition of a geek, please. Anne From dneary@free.fr Thu Jun 1 09:39:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC0FF3B0D35 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:39:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06719-08 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:39:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.wanadoo.fr (smtp2.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.29]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E48C3B0C49 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:39:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf0203.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 638591C001F4; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:39:31 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060601133931407.638591C001F4@mwinf0203.orange.fr Message-ID: <447EEE11.4000500@free.fr> Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:39:29 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (Windows/20060308) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Anne_=D8stergaard?= References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> <1149168764.6894.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <1149168764.6894.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:39:35 -0000 Anne Østergaard wrote: > tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 09:05 -0400, skrev Luis Villa: >> On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: >>> Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who's >>> better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? >> A female geek? > > I would like to hear your definition of a geek, please. >From my point of view, it's someone who's passionate about software (or more generally, about computers). The GNOME project needs people who are passionate about the freedom of free software who aren't *necessarily* passionate about software, but even then, for tasks other than being a developer, a passion in free software is probably a prerequisite. Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From anne@oestergaard.nu Thu Jun 1 09:39:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 750413B0D40 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:39:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06806-04 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:39:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67D673B0D2E for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:39:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user5.cybercity.dk (user5.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.51]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15A5F2455B0 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:39:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user5.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 9D19C3A1BDE for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:39:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 23975 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2006 13:39:32 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 1 Jun 2006 13:39:32 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Baris Cicek In-Reply-To: <1149168439.2507.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> <1149168439.2507.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:39:31 +0200 Message-Id: <1149169171.6894.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.534 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.065, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.534 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Dave Neary , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:39:36 -0000 tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 16:27 +0300, skrev Baris Cicek: > Actually, it should be someone who is able to detect possible obstacles > that put Asians or Women out of GNOME (or in general Free Software). I > doubt that anyone have any emprical study about that. But is it harsh > and rude behavior of developers or the community? Or technical limits? > Or even communication problems? (ie. English knowledge or something). > > First thing is to come up with a reasonable problems that new comers > would come across. And later people should follow a pathway to get rid > of these obstacles. > > Actually Code of Conduct may only be successful for new comers if we > detect those problems correctly. > > For that reason, ideas of the fresh community members is more important. > If you're experienced then either you did not have any problem or you > might even forgot those problems you'd encountered in past. Though, you > might still remember old days, but chances are low. > > IMHO, Code Of Conduct (or GNOME Ethics) should be written for that very > reason. Experienced members of the community might and would forget the > problems for newcomers. Something should remind them. > > But still first thing to do is to detect obstacles first. Else, outcome > of this work, won't get further than saying "Be nice to each other" with > rhetoric. I agree. A question is when do you feel you belong to the GNOME community? When there is a critical mass that is just like you and when you feel comfortable that a larger group share your way of thinking and ways of communicating? Anne > > > On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 09:05 -0400, Luis Villa wrote: > > On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Luis Villa wrote: > > > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > > > > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > > > > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > > > > someone with such experience. > > > > > > That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a developer > > > from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women involved > > > in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct > > > discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who's > > > better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? > > > > A female geek? > > > > Luis > > _______________________________________________ > > foundation-list mailing list > > foundation-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list > _______________________________________________ > foundation-list mailing list > foundation-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list From luis.villa@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 09:43:23 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF5F03B0173 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:43:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07305-02 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:43:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.196]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55A5F3B016F for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:43:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so246552wxd for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:43:17 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=UPMgxGsuCGu6P9N+IaztKhzWZWnUDGjuB1eu40MxK1NuAYJkPdnf/o0M+7UTRbphbBCZHji5W4uRedT5Trtz+xk2RNZjiehC/nOopS/OtST53stjQnuc+7XXuh50Weobl+tQK3djpBRujGIbYjkUE2DLA14rWpAxVg7jLqLYQt4= Received: by 10.70.40.12 with SMTP id n12mr737638wxn; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.2 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2cb10c440606010643x1dfe5e48mbcf68a2fd0352fae@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:43:16 -0400 From: "Luis Villa" To: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Anne_=D8stergaard?=" In-Reply-To: <1149168764.6894.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> <1149168764.6894.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:43:23 -0000 On 6/1/06, Anne =D8stergaard wrote: > tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 09:05 -0400, skrev Luis Villa: > > On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Luis Villa wrote: > > > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > > > > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer= *- > > > > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > > > > someone with such experience. > > > > > > That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a develop= er > > > from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women invol= ved > > > in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct > > > discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so wh= o's > > > better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-gee= k? > > > > A female geek? > > I would like to hear your definition of a geek, please. For the purposes of this discussion, 'someone actively involved in the development of our software through the traditional means used by our community'. This need not be direct software development (as everyone knows I do very little of that) but it does mean involvement in creating the product that we ship, and it does mean at least some participation in the mainstream of the community- desktop-devel-list, #gnome-hackers, etc. Luis From luis.villa@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 09:44:24 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5D663B016F for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:44:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07262-08 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:44:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.204]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 506EE3B0C49 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:44:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so246728wxd for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:44:21 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=GpGdnRDgVSS/SWZsX5U/sj0RXmGEYdgzgsLRzSM+2rgcLIebl2EPo+MS4FanUY2lt0S3HLELDWKLXUSbRRWSN6qQyccniZtM40z1wcvwVutMlhGHZPV/Mzbh3m8X54uRlE259+XeTT7pIYL1LFWvkKL6SI6TjBXi5UKvO5I6d5s= Received: by 10.70.6.1 with SMTP id 1mr746819wxf; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:44:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.2 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:44:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2cb10c440606010644s5af56377jb43c1e88b33192b2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:44:21 -0400 From: "Luis Villa" To: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Anne_=D8stergaard?=" In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010643x1dfe5e48mbcf68a2fd0352fae@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> <1149168764.6894.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2cb10c440606010643x1dfe5e48mbcf68a2fd0352fae@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:44:24 -0000 On 6/1/06, Luis Villa wrote: > On 6/1/06, Anne =D8stergaard wrote: > > tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 09:05 -0400, skrev Luis Villa: > > > On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > Luis Villa wrote: > > > > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > > > > > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a develop= er*- > > > > > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > > > > > someone with such experience. > > > > > > > > That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a devel= oper > > > > from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women inv= olved > > > > in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct > > > > discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so = who's > > > > better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-g= eek? > > > > > > A female geek? > > > > I would like to hear your definition of a geek, please. > > For the purposes of this discussion, 'someone actively involved in the > development of our software through the traditional means used by our > community'. This need not be direct software development (as everyone > knows I do very little of that) but it does mean involvement in > creating the product that we ship, and it does mean at least some > participation in the mainstream of the community- desktop-devel-list, > #gnome-hackers, etc. And I might add that the reason this is important is that it seems to me insane that someone could devise policy to get people involved in something they have not themselves participated in. Luis From anne@oestergaard.nu Thu Jun 1 09:59:39 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 831943B01C4 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:59:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08905-06 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:59:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero1.cybercity.dk (cicero1.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55B103B009D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:59:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user3.cybercity.dk (user3.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.36]) by cicero1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39B0D63ED41 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:59:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user3.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id E770393E9B for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:59:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 24279 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2006 13:59:34 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 1 Jun 2006 13:59:34 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Luis Villa In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:59:34 +0200 Message-Id: <1149170374.6894.73.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.535 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.064, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.535 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:59:39 -0000 tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 08:13 -0400, skrev Luis Villa: > On 6/1/06, Murray Cumming wrote: > > Anne wrote: > > [snip] > > > I do not say this to start a new long debat in this tread. But it has > > > become obvious that the 1% participation of women in FLOSS is > > > embarrassing and we need to have a look at why this is the case and make > > > some cultural changes. > > > > > > I know that the Computer Science Department at the University of > > > Gothenburg in Sweden has a gender action plan: > > > http://www.informatik.gu.se/dokument/dokument.xsp?group=jamstalldhet&menu=org > > > > > > I think that many other universities and even GNOME and Ubuntu could get > > > a lot of inspiration here. (Provided it gets translated from Swedish > > > into a language you understand.) > > [snip] > > > > Realistically, this plans needs to be written by you. Others will help you > > with it, but you need to create it and drive it. > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > someone with such experience. The FLOSSPOLS report was so eyeopening because it was written by a man who had to learn about these matters first and had a professional scientific experience and tool case to use. I will work with the whole of the women in FLOSS community as well as with the persons who wrote the FLOSSPOLS reports and others who have written scientific reports and with those of you who are interested. Just because you can't cover the whole spectrum personally does not mean that I am not entitled to have an opinion. I have experience in gender issues on a professional basis in the Nordic Countries, EU, and UN which might help. I attended the UN conference in Beijing representing the Nordic Council. Besides Luis I have manufactured a FLOSS nerd many years ago so I have access to free in house expertise on the technical matters. Have you by the way had time to read the FLOSSPOLS report yourself? Anne From hobbit@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk Thu Jun 1 10:28:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 033D03B009D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:28:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11133-10 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:28:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk [81.2.110.251]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F8913B0262 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:28:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (8.13.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id k51Dg9xP016043 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:42:09 +0100 Received: (from hobbit@localhost) by lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k51Dg8iZ016042 for foundation-list@gnome.org; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:42:08 +0100 Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:42:08 +0100 From: Telsa Gwynne To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060601134208.GA14011@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.503 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.096, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.503 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:28:54 -0000 Ar Tue, May 30, 2006 at 01:04:43PM +0200, ysgrifennodd Murray Cumming: > I don't think we need a whole organisation to police it. At the least, it > should just be how we expect people to behave on mailing lists and IRC and > it could be up to the administrator of that list or channel to decide > whether somone's conduct is unacceptable. But maybe some people would be > reassured by the existence of some group that they could go to in extreme > circumstances. > > Here's a simple start: > http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct > > What do you think? What else would you like to see there? I think this is a long-overdue thing to do. I also think that there is no fun being part of a "community" which is actually arguing the toss on whether "we think people should be courteous to each other within this community" is a good thing or not. Telsa From liam@holoweb.net Thu Jun 1 10:32:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6566A3B0225 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:32:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11652-07 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:32:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hd-t1637cl.privatedns.com (ip-209-172-34-239.reverse.privatedns.com [209.172.34.239]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7180F3B023E for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:32:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 28816 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2006 14:41:31 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO dell.barefootcomputing.com) (127.0.0.1) by hd-t1637cl.privatedns.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2006 14:41:31 -0000 From: Liam R E Quin To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149065540.5127.117.camel@localhost> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 10:29:53 -0400 Message-Id: <1149172193.8916.108.camel@dell.barefootcomputing.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1-1mdk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.564 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.035, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.564 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:32:47 -0000 On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 13:23 +0200, Anne Østergaard wrote: [...] > I have personally had the feeling over the past couple of years that the > general atmosphere in the GNOME community has hardened. Although I am not sure what you mean by hardened here, it doesn't sound good. > I fully agree with Bill and others here and I think we have to establish > a gender action plan within GNOME, Ubuntu etc. A non-discrimination policy would be a useful thing to do. The city of Toronto has a fairly good one, devised in conjunction with a large number of minority groups over a long period: http://www.toronto.ca/grants/pdf/declaration_non_discrimination_policy.pdf It was printed on a huge multilingual poster (including Braille) and distributed widely. Creation or adoption of such a policy is not the same as saying that there is discrimination, of course -- it is saying that discrimination isn't OK. Gnome has done ground-breaking work on accessibility, on internationalisation, and on usability. This work ought to be sending a strong message that diversity is welcomed. Beyond that I am not sure how to get more women involved. One difficulty is cultural in many parts of the world, unfortunately: girls are often trained to turn to boys when something needs fixing. To get back on topic of the original thread, I'd rather see some non-discrimination non-violence policies in place and then a code of conduct would consist of "follow the guidelines". Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org From luis.villa@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 11:11:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91A883B023D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:11:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14988-04 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:11:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.206]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 492373B01C4 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:11:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so262700wxd for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 08:11:10 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=c7nCkDAeUk9IARaAuoVqYt1X9YWo84LfbEM3sclWHemKQVbV6XZwhimTvwKq3L7pxQHE+osmIJDrNectrnGDL6lD3NLgBJO3tf9krWJaNK9P7mHIyFopDtnCN3soWOcj6dmTUZqcs/v2wRK7V/1rovRn7brKfqTNc4J/9yQMHak= Received: by 10.70.89.7 with SMTP id m7mr842070wxb; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 08:11:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.2 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:11:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2cb10c440606010811p27d3a2cfk1d834f6e2ca01d74@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:11:10 -0400 From: "Luis Villa" To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20060601134208.GA14011@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060601134208.GA14011@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:11:13 -0000 On 6/1/06, Telsa Gwynne wrote: > Ar Tue, May 30, 2006 at 01:04:43PM +0200, ysgrifennodd Murray Cumming: > > I don't think we need a whole organisation to police it. At the least, it > > should just be how we expect people to behave on mailing lists and IRC and > > it could be up to the administrator of that list or channel to decide > > whether somone's conduct is unacceptable. But maybe some people would be > > reassured by the existence of some group that they could go to in extreme > > circumstances. > > > > Here's a simple start: > > http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct > > > > What do you think? What else would you like to see there? > > I think this is a long-overdue thing to do. > > I also think that there is no fun being part of a "community" which is > actually arguing the toss on whether "we think people should be courteous > to each other within this community" is a good thing or not. I don't think anyone is arguing against being courteous; I'm certainly not. I just think we'd be better off focusing on actually making people more courteous, instead of writing rules about it. Luis From david.bolter@utoronto.ca Thu Jun 1 11:26:26 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5FB23B0D6C for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:26:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16176-02 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:26:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bureau8.utcc.utoronto.ca (bureau8.utcc.utoronto.ca [128.100.132.18]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CC433B027D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:26:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from otter.atrc.utoronto.ca ([142.150.154.224] EHLO [142.150.154.224] ident: IDENT-NOT-QUERIED [port 36999]) by bureau8.utcc.utoronto.ca with ESMTP id <25261-25808>; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:23:26 -0400 Message-ID: <447F066B.3020108@utoronto.ca> Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:23:23 -0400 From: David Bolter User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060420) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Luis Villa References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060601134208.GA14011@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> <2cb10c440606010811p27d3a2cfk1d834f6e2ca01d74@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010811p27d3a2cfk1d834f6e2ca01d74@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.564 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.035, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.564 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:26:27 -0000 Luis Villa wrote: > On 6/1/06, Telsa Gwynne wrote: >> Ar Tue, May 30, 2006 at 01:04:43PM +0200, ysgrifennodd Murray Cumming: >> > I don't think we need a whole organisation to police it. At the >> least, it >> > should just be how we expect people to behave on mailing lists and >> IRC and >> > it could be up to the administrator of that list or channel to decide >> > whether somone's conduct is unacceptable. But maybe some people >> would be >> > reassured by the existence of some group that they could go to in >> extreme >> > circumstances. >> > >> > Here's a simple start: >> > http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct >> > >> > What do you think? What else would you like to see there? >> >> I think this is a long-overdue thing to do. >> >> I also think that there is no fun being part of a "community" which is >> actually arguing the toss on whether "we think people should be >> courteous >> to each other within this community" is a good thing or not. > > I don't think anyone is arguing against being courteous; I'm certainly > not. I just think we'd be better off focusing on actually making > people more courteous, instead of writing rules about it. > I sense we are all close to agreeing here... I think the fear is the idea that rules will restrict us. The GPL is very restrictive but isn't that what makes GPL software so free? I like the idea of having guidelines that suggest the protection of people from discrimination. Being a shy Canadian... if I was on IRC witnessing silliness I would like the option of politely pointing someone to a guidelines wiki page than actually arguing with them. cheers, David From uraeus@linuxrising.org Thu Jun 1 11:36:19 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 675EB3B0DDC for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:36:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16890-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:36:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx1.es6.egwn.net (server02.es6.egwn.net [195.10.6.12]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1B253B02A2 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:36:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.235] (core.fluendo.com [195.10.6.237]) by mx1.es6.egwn.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 788BA4F8310 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:36:15 +0200 (CEST) From: Christian Fredrik Kalager Schaller To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149065540.5127.117.camel@localhost> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 17:34:53 +0200 Message-Id: <1149176093.2487.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 (2.6.1-1.fc5.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.056 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.057, BAYES_50=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -0.056 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:36:19 -0000 On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 13:23 +0200, Anne Østergaard wrote: > I have personally had the feeling over the past couple of years that the > general atmosphere in the GNOME community has hardened. > I don't think its has hardened as much as grown older. Going back 5 years we where 'all' in our early/mid twenties or late teens with a lot extra energy and exploring a new frontier. Today a lot of the same people are around, getting close to or having passed thirty. Hair is thinning, greying or receding, bellies growing and the long term effect of a coke and pizza diet is taking its toll on both mind and body. These people have grown wise with age, but also their patience and energy to help newbie number 1000 who asks a less informed question have fallen. So answers tend either to not be forthcoming or being short often feeling a bit curt, maybe just a 'sorry WONTFIX'. The regrowth of younger developers, who might have the energy to devote to helping the lost noobs, tend to want to defer answering questions to the old wizards in the fear of saying something wrong as things have also grown more complicated since those early days. I don't think we can solve this apart from enforcing retirement from the community once passed 30 to keep our average young and energetic :) Christian From alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk Thu Jun 1 11:39:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E01953B02D6 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:39:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17200-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:39:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from out.lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (unknown [81.2.110.250]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E049C3B0215 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:39:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by out.lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k51Dve6a014608; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:00:22 +0100 Received: (from alan@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.4/8.13.4/Submit) id k51Dvd2O014606; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:57:39 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: alan set sender to alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk using -f From: Alan Cox To: Murray Cumming In-Reply-To: <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:57:33 +0100 Message-Id: <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.3 (2.2.3-2.fc4) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.593 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.006, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.593 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:39:56 -0000 On Iau, 2006-06-01 at 14:33 +0200, Murray Cumming wrote: > Hmm, how about people working together? It just seems that the person who > most most obviously wants this should be the person trying to make it > happen. I'd be wary of pursuing just the "women in GNOME" issue, because many of the same things put off far more than just women. Running around shouting "pants off" is not, for example, very compatible with the Japanese cultural expectations. Also if "Code of Conduct" is too strong then "Expected Behaviour" perhaps. Personally I don't see a problem with "Code of Conduct" in that it deals with acting for, speaking for, representing or being part of Gnome, or when using its facilities. It isn't too much to ask for people to keep other stuff elsewhere, or to engage in other incompatible activities from a non-gnome email address or on a different irc network. Alan From shaunm@gnome.org Thu Jun 1 11:51:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E25B3B0215 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:51:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17493-09 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:51:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wolfram.com (mailhub.wolfram.com [140.177.10.16]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC8F63B02D6 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:51:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shaunmlx.wri.wolfram.com (shaunmlx.wri.wolfram.com [140.177.4.54]) (authenticated bits=0) by wolfram.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k51FpH0N012193 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:51:18 -0500 From: Shaun McCance To: Dave Neary In-Reply-To: <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440605300709u669c5da2sa352f1f5fedf2b06@mail.gmail.com> <14439.194.138.18.131.1149000460.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060530151633.GB28961@bridgewayconsulting.com.au> <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 10:51:17 -0500 Message-Id: <1149177077.31607.13.camel@shaunmlx> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.527 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.072, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.527 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming , Davyd Madeley Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:51:45 -0000 On Tue, 2006-05-30 at 17:31 +0200, Dave Neary wrote: > Hi, > > Davyd Madeley wrote: > > Also of interest, a (female) colleague asked where we're getting our > > 1% contribution statistic from. It sounds believable, but is it > > people with CVS accounts, or does it include translators who send > > translations to their i18n team leader. Did someone just look > > through a list of names and guess the genders? Similarly for > > "asianness" (sic). Are we just using the domain names on their > > email addresses? > > The 1% comes from the FLOSS-POLS report on women in free software, among > others. Hanna Wallach's presented a 1.5% figure from that result before: > http://grandtextauto.gatech.edu/2005/11/22/debian-women/ > > That's 1.5% in free software compared to 28% in proprietary software. I'd be interested in seeing the raw numbers. My experience in the proprietary software industry is that there tends to be a reasonably high percentage of women in technical jobs that aren't necessarily programming (though they may involve some programming), such as project management, tech writing, graphic design, and quality assurance. All of these positions tend to be under-represented in the free software world, at least among volunteer efforts. I'm not trying to say that we need more of these positions just to inflate our gender numbers (though I will say we need more of these positions for other reasons). All I'm saying is that the free and proprietary numbers might be measuring slightly different things, and that the proprietary software industry might not be as well integrated as indicated. -- Shaun From murrayc@murrayc.com Thu Jun 1 12:57:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E33E13B0236 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 12:57:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22029-06 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 12:57:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swarthymail-a1.dreamhost.com (ip-208-97-132-53.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 460493B0115 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 12:57:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from noname (p5497F70E.dip.t-dialin.net [84.151.247.14]) by swarthymail-a1.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D70690DF8; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:57:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Murray Cumming To: Alan Cox In-Reply-To: <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 18:57:44 +0200 Message-Id: <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.507 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.092, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.507 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 16:57:54 -0000 On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 14:57 +0100, Alan Cox wrote: > On Iau, 2006-06-01 at 14:33 +0200, Murray Cumming wrote: > > Hmm, how about people working together? It just seems that the person who > > most most obviously wants this should be the person trying to make it > > happen. > > I'd be wary of pursuing just the "women in GNOME" issue, because many of > the same things put off far more than just women. Yes, that's why the gender issue is only one (possible) part of the code of conduct, though it's the reason that I got around to finally pushing it. But Anne is asking specifically for a gender policy/plan, apparently separate to that. I'd just like her to make a suggestion. > Running around > shouting "pants off" is not, for example, very compatible with the > Japanese cultural expectations. > > Also if "Code of Conduct" is too strong then "Expected Behaviour" > perhaps. Personally I don't see a problem with "Code of Conduct" in that > it deals with acting for, speaking for, representing or being part of > Gnome, or when using its facilities. > > It isn't too much to ask for people to keep other stuff elsewhere, or to > engage in other incompatible activities from a non-gnome email address > or on a different irc network. -- Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From anne@oestergaard.nu Thu Jun 1 16:22:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B3E13B0345 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:22:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04031-09 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:22:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61F4C3B0350 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:22:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user5.cybercity.dk (user5.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.51]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 296332450B9 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 22:21:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user5.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id D218D3A1CEA for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 22:21:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 29142 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2006 20:21:57 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 1 Jun 2006 20:21:57 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Murray Cumming In-Reply-To: <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 22:21:56 +0200 Message-Id: <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.536 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.063, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.536 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Alan Cox Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 20:22:13 -0000 tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 18:57 +0200, skrev Murray Cumming: > On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 14:57 +0100, Alan Cox wrote: > > On Iau, 2006-06-01 at 14:33 +0200, Murray Cumming wrote: > > > Hmm, how about people working together? It just seems that the person who > > > most most obviously wants this should be the person trying to make it > > > happen. > > > > I'd be wary of pursuing just the "women in GNOME" issue, because many of > > the same things put off far more than just women. Yes. > Yes, that's why the gender issue is only one (possible) part of the code > of conduct, though it's the reason that I got around to finally pushing > it. > > But Anne is asking specifically for a gender policy/plan, apparently > separate to that. I'd just like her to make a suggestion. I think it is a natural step to take after the EU and FLOSSPOLS report has shown that women are being excluded from the community.- If we want to se some change in attitudes and behavior in GNOME and FLOSS, and se more women involved in the future in all parts and capacities of our projects, we need to find out why only a little more than 1% of are women. > > Running around > > shouting "pants off" is not, for example, very compatible with the > > Japanese cultural expectations. I don't expect it either. > > Also if "Code of Conduct" is too strong then "Expected Behaviour" > > perhaps. Personally I don't see a problem with "Code of Conduct" in that > > it deals with acting for, speaking for, representing or being part of > > Gnome, or when using its facilities. I fully agree. Anne From gpoo@ubiobio.cl Thu Jun 1 16:30:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FCD53B0F5A for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:30:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04723-03 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:30:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay.ubiobio.cl (atlas.dci.ubiobio.cl [146.83.195.21]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18FC33B0DF6 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:30:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by forward.ubiobio.cl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85A3A400341; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:29:06 -0400 (CLT) Received: from pegasus.dci.ubiobio.cl ([146.83.195.11]) by localhost (antivirus.dci.ubiobio.cl [146.83.195.21]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04672-54; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:29:05 -0400 (CLT) Received: from mimos.local (unknown [146.83.198.86]) by pegasus.dci.ubiobio.cl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87AB32804423; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:30:33 -0400 (CLT) From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Germ=E1n_Po=F3_Caama=F1o?= To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 16:30:37 -0400 Message-Id: <1149193838.15278.79.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at ubiobio.cl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.414 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.414 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Alan Cox , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 20:30:49 -0000 On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 22:21 +0200, Anne Østergaard wrote: > tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 18:57 +0200, skrev Murray Cumming: > > On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 14:57 +0100, Alan Cox wrote: > [...] > > > Also if "Code of Conduct" is too strong then "Expected Behaviour" > > > perhaps. Personally I don't see a problem with "Code of Conduct" in that > > > it deals with acting for, speaking for, representing or being part of > > > Gnome, or when using its facilities. > > I fully agree. Some part of this already exists for a long time ago. But, at the moment it is only applied to mail aliases: http://developer.gnome.org/doc/policies/accounts/mail.html The proposal is a kind of extension of that policy, but in the other way (saying what is good). -- Germán Poó-Caamaño http://www.ubiobio.cl/~gpoo/ Concepción - Chile From dneary@free.fr Thu Jun 1 17:13:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ECC13B03C7 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:13:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07168-10 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:13:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp3-g19.free.fr (smtp3-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.29]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4C0B3B035E for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:13:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp3-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8B524970D; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 23:13:42 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <447F5885.8080600@free.fr> Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 23:13:41 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.8 (X11/20060502) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Anne_=D8stergaard?= References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.573 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.026, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.573 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Alan Cox , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 21:13:46 -0000 Hi, Anne Østergaard wrote: > tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 18:57 +0200, skrev Murray Cumming: > I think it is a natural step to take after the EU and FLOSSPOLS report > has shown that women are being excluded from the community.- What I've seen shows that women are not participating in the community - this is not necessarily the same thing as being excluded (which implies some kind of conscious decision on the part of "the community"). Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From domlachowicz@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 17:50:06 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A76A3B029F for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:50:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09033-03 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:50:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.201]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6E823B0323 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:50:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so326172wxd for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:50:04 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=EQz0j9dnYEQkJhXAWayQpR6Xs35ItnM88LGVKIs10TURvWQmE6UuwzzLxOzpt1X2dwvby4ZelOufGT05N2Yikg+fSfXy2u6eVp3ujRO/pA1QWEdDbOk22uuXhBzixogXA7P1933/m5QcoH1eLyDgDl9Ylk6aELLr4sukH7cNQ6c= Received: by 10.70.102.11 with SMTP id z11mr1409705wxb; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.105.2 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2672cf4d0606011450m58601cadq2f8694e2968d753c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:50:04 -0400 From: "Dominic Lachowicz" To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.452 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.148, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.452 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 21:50:06 -0000 > I think it is a natural step to take after the EU and FLOSSPOLS report > has shown that women are being excluded from the community.- This rubs me the wrong way. It's not like we're actively working to exclude women, Asians, or Martians from GNOME. Nor are we actively trying to make GNOME a boys-only club. Simply put, there's no conscious, malicious intent behind the disproportionate male/female ratio, or "Western"/Asian ratio. And I think that this matters... > If we want to se some change in attitudes and behavior in GNOME and > FLOSS, and se more women involved in the future in all parts and > capacities of our projects, we need to find out why only a little more > than 1% of are women. ... because I don't believe that actively pursuing "diversity" for its own sake is a valid goal. I may sound myopic here, but I don't see what the goal of recruiting women qua women or Asians qua Asians gains us as a community. I refuse to measure diversity based on one's genitals or skin color. [However, (for example) recruiting Asians as an attempt to understand their needs, skills, and mentality in order to acquire a greater Asian market share, however, could be ok. Asians are the means. A rockin' version of GNOME on lots of Asian computers is the end.] Instituting open-door policies, non-discriminatory policies/"codes of conduct", and the like are worthwhile goals in-and-of themselves. They advertise what the core tenets of our community are, and this is something we should become better at. But one should not necessarily abandon established (nay, endearing) traits of our community just to grow it larger. You'd give up something concretely cool about the community for some undefined, possibly non-existant benefit. And that ain't diversity, it's its opposite. I'd rather see us resolve to do a better job of marketing how open, cool, and charismatic we are as a community, and let the chips fall where they will. Get the word out to as many people as practicable, welcome everyone, and let the diversity come to us as an organic result of our general openness and coolness. Where we have some specific goal in mind, change as necessary to meet that goal. But don't change for change's sake alone. Recruit interesting people. Recruit smart, talented people. Recruit people useful for your ends. Welcome all people. But don't recruit genitals and skin colors. They're neither interesting nor useful for free software's purposes. Justice is blind, and so should we be. Best, Dom -- Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums. From jdub@waugh.id.au Thu Jun 1 21:05:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 763FE3B0F8D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:05:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20266-06 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:05:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 674FB3B0FA8 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:05:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (ppp121-112.static.internode.on.net [150.101.121.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89CA13C573 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:05:29 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2569D40B4; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:05:26 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:05:26 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060602010526.GE5138@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060601134208.GA14011@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> <2cb10c440606010811p27d3a2cfk1d834f6e2ca01d74@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010811p27d3a2cfk1d834f6e2ca01d74@mail.gmail.com> Reply-By: Mon Jun 5 11:01:11 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 11:01:11 up 10:53, 6 users, load average: 0.23, 0.11, 0.16 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.445 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.445 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Isn't and Wasn't "Rules" [Was: Code Of Conduct] X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 01:05:33 -0000 > I don't think anyone is arguing against being courteous; I'm certainly > not. I just think we'd be better off focusing on actually making people > more courteous, instead of writing rules about it. I think most everyone else has got out of the "characterising it as rules" thing already. It's pretty obvious that's not what Murray's suggesting, or what we're (slowly, consensus-gridlock-ly) buying into. I think a fun way to deal with this criticism ('cos it's valid and expected) is to actually make it a Very GNOMEy Code of Conduct. Let's not beat around the bush - first point: "Be Excellent to Each Other". *guitar lick* - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ "To do: Start up a a magazine dedicated to picky grammar. Call it 'Whom Weekly'." - WzDD From jdub@waugh.id.au Thu Jun 1 21:08:39 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ED713B0D7A for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:08:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20777-05 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:08:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72BFD3B0196 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:08:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (ppp121-112.static.internode.on.net [150.101.121.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEA123C31C for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:08:35 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3CEC340B4; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:08:32 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:08:32 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060602010832.GF5138@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060601134208.GA14011@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> <2cb10c440606010811p27d3a2cfk1d834f6e2ca01d74@mail.gmail.com> <20060602010526.GE5138@waugh.id.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060602010526.GE5138@waugh.id.au> Reply-By: Mon Jun 5 11:08:22 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 11:08:22 up 11:00, 6 users, load average: 0.01, 0.04, 0.09 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.445 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.445 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Isn't and Wasn't "Rules" [Was: Code Of Conduct] X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 01:08:39 -0000 > I think a fun way to deal with this criticism ('cos it's valid and > expected) is to actually make it a Very GNOMEy Code of Conduct. Let's not > beat around the bush - first point: "Be Excellent to Each Other". > > *guitar lick* (added this point to the wiki page) - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2007: Sydney, Australia http://lca2007.linux.org.au/ "I don't want the world, I just want your half." - They Might Be Giants, Ana Ng From murrayc@murrayc.com Fri Jun 2 03:16:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 278B63B1058 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 03:16:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05391-08 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 03:16:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail2.sd.dreamhost.com (webmail2.sd.dreamhost.com [66.33.201.157]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3157B3B1008 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 03:16:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.murrayc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by webmail2.sd.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6311ADC71B; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 00:16:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 194.138.18.132 (proxying for unknown) (SquirrelMail authenticated user murrayc@murrayc.com) by webmail.murrayc.com with HTTP; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 09:16:43 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <44634.194.138.18.132.1149232603.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606011450m58601cadq2f8694e2968d753c@mail.gmail.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606011450m58601cadq2f8694e2968d753c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 09:16:43 +0200 (CEST) From: "Murray Cumming" To: "Dominic Lachowicz" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.557 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.042, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.557 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 07:16:48 -0000 >> I think it is a natural step to take after the EU and FLOSSPOLS report >> has shown that women are being excluded from the community.- > > This rubs me the wrong way. It's not like we're actively working to > exclude women, Asians, or Martians from GNOME. Nor are we actively > trying to make GNOME a boys-only club. Simply put, there's no > conscious, malicious intent behind the disproportionate male/female > ratio, or "Western"/Asian ratio. And I think that this matters... Yet it may require conscious intent to fix it. >> If we want to se some change in attitudes and behavior in GNOME and >> FLOSS, and se more women involved in the future in all parts and >> capacities of our projects, we need to find out why only a little more >> than 1% of are women. > > ... because I don't believe that actively pursuing "diversity" for its > own sake is a valid goal. I may sound myopic here, but I don't see > what the goal of recruiting women qua women or Asians qua Asians gains > us as a community. Other than the obvious morally repellent idea that we might be perceived as unwelcoming to arbitrary large groups of people [1], there are plenty of selfish reasons for doing this: - We are a worldwide project aiming to create a project to make the world a better place for humanity, so we really should be trying our best to involve representative parts of the world in that. It makes it more likely that we will create a product that helps with their goals. - Women + Asia are two huge groups of potential contributors. That many contributors can make a huge contribution if we can get them on board. [1] The idea is so awful that we should be doing whatever we can even if we are not sure that it's going to work or that we are the cause, certainly as long as those things are not going to hurt us. What we have to gain is far more than we have to lose. > I refuse to measure diversity based on one's > genitals or skin color. > > [However, (for example) recruiting Asians as an attempt to understand > their needs, skills, and mentality in order to acquire a greater Asian > market share, however, could be ok. Asians are the means. A rockin' > version of GNOME on lots of Asian computers is the end.] > > Instituting open-door policies, non-discriminatory policies/"codes of > conduct", and the like are worthwhile goals in-and-of themselves. They > advertise what the core tenets of our community are, and this is > something we should become better at. But one should not necessarily > abandon established (nay, endearing) traits of our community just to > grow it larger. You'd give up something concretely cool about the > community for some undefined, possibly non-existant benefit. And that > ain't diversity, it's its opposite. > > I'd rather see us resolve to do a better job of marketing how open, > cool, and charismatic we are as a community, and let the chips fall > where they will. Get the word out to as many people as practicable, > welcome everyone, and let the diversity come to us as an organic > result of our general openness and coolness. Where we have some > specific goal in mind, change as necessary to meet that goal. But > don't change for change's sake alone. > > Recruit interesting people. Recruit smart, talented people. Recruit > people useful for your ends. Welcome all people. But don't recruit > genitals and skin colors. They're neither interesting nor useful for > free software's purposes. Justice is blind, and so should we be. This unfortunately ignores the conclusion that many have made that some groups will not feel at home in a community until their are people like them in the community. To get to that critical mass we may need to help the process along a bit. I think Callum said it well: http://spooky-possum.org/cgi-bin/pyblosxom.cgi/womenoss.html The code of conduct doesn't try to address that directly, however. It's just a small part of it. Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From dneary@free.fr Fri Jun 2 11:12:08 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B8BE3B0492; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:12:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02791-04; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:12:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.wanadoo.fr (smtp1.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.30]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 714393B045D; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:12:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf0101.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id DE51F1C00250; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:12:03 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060602151203910.DE51F1C00250@mwinf0101.orange.fr Message-ID: <44805543.9030503@free.fr> Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 17:12:03 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Foundation-List , Advisory Board X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Co-option of Quim Gil to the board X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:12:08 -0000 Hi, When Luis announced to the board that he wanted to resign [1] a couple of weeks ago, the board discussed our options - referendum or co-option. We felt that co-opting a new member onto the board, on the basis of the election results last December, was the best way to select the newest member of the board. Our decision was made easy by the fact that since the election, this person has gone on to become a heavyweight in the GNOME community in very short order. So without further ado, I'd like to announce that the board has decided to co-opt Quim Gil onto the board into the vacant position left by Luis Villa, effective immediately. We're all sorry to see Luis leave the board, but I have a feeling that this means we'll be hearing even more from him in the future. I'd like to wish him all the best in his budding legal career. Welcome on board, Quim. Cheers, Dave. [1] http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/06/01/resigning-from-the-board/ -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From anne@oestergaard.nu Fri Jun 2 11:20:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 323583B0508 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:20:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03437-07 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:20:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero1.cybercity.dk (cicero1.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1D7C3B01DB for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:20:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EE2A63F49B for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:20:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 66BAF750595 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:20:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 7791 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2006 15:20:29 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 2 Jun 2006 15:20:29 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: foundation-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 17:20:29 +0200 Message-Id: <1149261629.6843.46.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.33 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.145, BAYES_40=-0.185] X-Spam-Score: -1.33 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Denmark to follow in the foot steps of Massachuchets on open standards X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:20:34 -0000 Denmark to follow in the foot steps of Massachuchets on open standards. Half an hour ago the Danish Parliament, Folketinget voted on B 103 on introducing open standards in the state administration: The short version: " To introduce and maintain a set of open standards from January 1st 2008 or if this is not possible as soon as it is technically possible". All voters, 113 voted in favor. This means that the Minister Of Science, Technology and Innovation has to make a law proposal at present it in the next session of Folketinget after the sommer vacation. This is a huge step forward for kompetition and interoperability in the software sector. Best wishes Anne From luis.villa@gmail.com Fri Jun 2 11:42:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4D6B3B0135 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:42:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04691-10 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:42:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.207]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C508B3B0487 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:42:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so573067wxd for ; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 08:42:41 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=alaXrWnB7HFYQ//qRQWu01yX6KdjMGVhaJlybNLM3KO7RMd5Uc4kem7mi8uVGw8RntB0znpdBPAwJGaZl1JIHs04AUo1LEXRBhVBM0027t55glEdEsh/X/4An6icYfYVvGITMl38FizG9Hsn0KfHIvq62jL7wLvvcynRswYJQiA= Received: by 10.70.105.9 with SMTP id d9mr2597990wxc; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 08:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.2 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 08:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2cb10c440606020842r42c3eed1v9b9fb9796cffc37e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:42:39 -0400 From: "Luis Villa" To: "Dave Neary" In-Reply-To: <44805543.9030503@free.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <44805543.9030503@free.fr> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Foundation-List Subject: Re: Co-option of Quim Gil to the board X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:42:48 -0000 On 6/2/06, Dave Neary wrote: > We're all sorry to see Luis leave the > board, but I have a feeling that this means we'll be hearing even more > from him in the future. I'd like to wish him all the best in his budding > legal career. Should have announced that here first, of course :) My mistake. To paraphrase what I said on the blog post, when I ran for board this year, I mentioned that I'd be AWOL towards the end of the term, but I miscalculated for how long. Given that it would have been roughly 1/2 of the term, I decided to resign as quickly as the correct replacement could be found. Given Quim's excellent leadership of GUADEC so far, I have every confidence that he'll do an excellent job of it. It has been an honor and a pleasure to be elected to the board as many times as I have- I owe a big debt of thanks to everyone who has supported me over the years. I hope I've served well and fulfilled your expectations. Luis From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Fri Jun 2 17:59:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF3F63B0424 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:59:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26906-01 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:59:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 02A003B0408 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:59:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 6750 invoked by uid 0); 2 Jun 2006 21:59:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.34]) (83.42.203.236) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 21:59:45 +0000 From: Quim Gil To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <4480555C.8070702@free.fr> References: <4480555C.8070702@free.fr> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-We/bITLkFRm0xgU/rk3X" Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 23:59:45 +0200 Message-Id: <1149285585.4975.205.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.499, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Co-option of Quim Gil to the board X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 21:59:52 -0000 --=-We/bITLkFRm0xgU/rk3X Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El dv 02 de 06 del 2006 a les 17:12 +0200, en/na Dave Neary va escriure: > Welcome on board, Quim. Thank you for the trust. Where is the manual? Throw me some tasks... to be started really on July 1st. Let me say thanks to Murray for the ignition, thanks to Dave for the companion and thanks to Luis... not for leaving but for being a referent in many aspects. I still don't know what he does all the time with the bugsquashers ;) but reading him here and there is always a constructive experience. And thanks of course to the open, friendly and welcoming GNOME community, that I'm getting to know in various aspects from my seat at the GUADEC ticket window.=20 For the administrativia and the transparency:=20 I was still affiliated to interactors.coop when I presented candidacy last December, but on January I was already independent and self-employed. Since then I'm working part time for GUADEC 2006, being paid by the Information Society office of the Catalan government (this could be considered my current affiliation) until July 15th. =20 --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-We/bITLkFRm0xgU/rk3X Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEgLTRBEzHYk6x634RAus1AKCFY7lfbc38l3Ye7IPooXcpo5i9zACgmj37 QthA+VvQOHgeSKgkqm530+k= =m61U -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-We/bITLkFRm0xgU/rk3X-- From alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk Sun Jun 4 12:16:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C50043B01B6 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 12:16:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28610-07 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 12:16:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (unknown [81.2.110.250]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4DAD3B009F for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 12:16:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k54GVY3s024738; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:31:35 +0100 Received: (from alan@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k54GVYRS024737; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:31:34 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: alan set sender to alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk using -f From: Alan Cox To: Dominic Lachowicz In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606011450m58601cadq2f8694e2968d753c@mail.gmail.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606011450m58601cadq2f8694e2968d753c@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 17:31:33 +0100 Message-Id: <1149438693.23209.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 (2.6.1-1.fc5.2) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.386 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.201, BAYES_40=-0.185] X-Spam-Score: -1.386 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 16:16:27 -0000 Ar Iau, 2006-06-01 am 17:50 -0400, ysgrifennodd Dominic Lachowicz: > This rubs me the wrong way. It's not like we're actively working to > exclude women, Asians, or Martians from GNOME. Nor are we actively > trying to make GNOME a boys-only club. Simply put, there's no > conscious, malicious intent behind the disproportionate male/female > ratio, or "Western"/Asian ratio. And I think that this matters... It shouldn't IMHO be taken that way. Most discrimination of all kinds is utterly unintentional, and that kind of discrimination is harder to tackle because there is no evil intent and no-one to directly blame. It still needs tackling, and that is in part about making people understand when their actions put off or exclude others. Alan From danilo@gnome.org Sun Jun 4 18:36:42 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED3AB3B0080 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 18:36:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15344-09 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 18:36:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from avet.kvota.net (unknown [147.91.15.33]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4238D3B0008 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 18:36:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by avet.kvota.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1A75A7D1A0; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 00:41:17 +0200 (CEST) To: Alan Cox References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606011450m58601cadq2f8694e2968d753c@mail.gmail.com> <1149438693.23209.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> From: danilo@gnome.org (=?utf-8?q?Danilo_=C5=A0egan?=) Mail-Followup-To: Alan Cox , Dominic Lachowicz , foundation-list@gnome.org Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 00:41:16 +0200 In-Reply-To: <1149438693.23209.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> (Alan Cox's message of "Sun, 04 Jun 2006 17:31:33 +0100") Message-ID: <87k67w8rxv.fsf@avet.kvota.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/21.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.489 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.110, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.489 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 22:36:42 -0000 Hi Alan, Dominic, Yesterday at 18:31, Alan Cox wrote: > It shouldn't IMHO be taken that way. Most discrimination of all kinds is > utterly unintentional, and that kind of discrimination is harder to > tackle because there is no evil intent and no-one to directly blame. It > still needs tackling, and that is in part about making people understand > when their actions put off or exclude others. Any actions whatsoever put off or exclude others. Eg. even insisting on freedom (in practice) excludes those who insist that they need no freedom in software (even if we're not intentionally excluding them: if they need no freedom, it doesn't mean that it will harm them, so why wouldn't they join and help us?). And as already indicated on this list, there are several people here who are afraid that establishing Code of Conduct would "put off or exclude others" as well (i.e. be "discriminative"). And not because they would not abide by the rules, but because they wouldn't want to be told what to, and what not to do. Shall we stop promoting freedom because of this "discrimination"? Or "being nice"? (this is exactly the reason I am in favour of CoC: just like we should promote freedom even if it puts off someone, we should promote politeness even if it excludes someone) I'd rather say that we're getting increasingly and needlessly touchy here. Lets just get on with the Code of Conduct (or whatever the name is now), and hope that it will resolve issues we as a community might have, yet are unable to acknowledge or recognise. Cheers, Danilo From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Mon Jun 5 03:15:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66D613B0560 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 03:15:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10156-09 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 03:14:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C3F413B070E for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 03:14:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 32058 invoked by uid 0); 5 Jun 2006 07:14:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.34]) (83.55.175.229) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 07:14:53 +0000 From: Quim Gil To: Shaun McCance In-Reply-To: <1149177077.31607.13.camel@shaunmlx> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440605300709u669c5da2sa352f1f5fedf2b06@mail.gmail.com> <14439.194.138.18.131.1149000460.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060530151633.GB28961@bridgewayconsulting.com.au> <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> <1149177077.31607.13.camel@shaunmlx> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-CbFrQf4qX9tQSp9+ED3+" Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 09:14:51 +0200 Message-Id: <1149491692.5124.54.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.281 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=1.318, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -1.281 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 07:15:03 -0000 --=-CbFrQf4qX9tQSp9+ED3+ Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El dj 01 de 06 del 2006 a les 10:51 -0500, en/na Shaun McCance va escriure: > there tends to > be a reasonably high percentage of women in technical jobs > that aren't necessarily programming (though they may involve > some programming), such as project management, tech writing, > graphic design, and quality assurance. >=20 > All of these positions tend to be under-represented in the > free software world, at least among volunteer efforts. Good point.=20 We can try to find and convince the very few geek women out there for free software hardcore programming. But if we miss people in all the non-programming tasks, wouldn't be easier to find new types of contributors through these gateways? Documentation, marketing, web publishing, graphic design, journalism, project coordination, community management... are tasks that involve both women and men in the professional world. We have difficulties recruiting volunteers, any kind of volunteers, in these tasks and I think the reason is not some kind of gender or minority discrimination but, put simply, the predominant geek culture (which I bet some sociologist has already found out to be based mainly on male and western paradigms). It is probably good to promote geek-ism in those aspects of free software related to programming but... is it useful to promote it in the rest of tasks? I don't think so, unless we want to develop a desktop and a bunch applications successful between geeks only. I bet this geek culture is stopping many women from being interested in the free software phenomena (in fact I asked several computer-friendly women and this is the answer I got). Being myself not a programmer, it stopped me from finding a place to contribute until I learned to be geek-friendly. And this culture is still stopping many of my non-geek colleagues (both women and men) to come and give a hand. Ask your friends. =20 It is clear that women in general are happy investing their personal time in social activities without a monetary or even a clear benefit. Women have been key in any process of social change (even if their names don't appear in the history books). Have a look on social, non-commercial activities around the world and you will find women everywhere, many times challenging the gender percentages or simply having a clear superiority over men.=20 If we fail involving women (and other "majority" groups in other social, non-commercial organizations and activities) it's because something else, an the geek culture is in the top of the suspicious list. We can work making the geek paradigms more feminine or less gender-determined but changing a paradigm takes time and there is no manual for it. Working on less geek-ish gateways and environments for the non-programming tasks seems to be a more tangible challenge that can make a change in the short term. --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-CbFrQf4qX9tQSp9+ED3+ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEg9nqBEzHYk6x634RAqlJAJ4zANfndROsAmG+04Ii2MTuE6ocXACgvF4R FcFX4ebWv4xv6VK+G+wa1OI= =/nJ+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-CbFrQf4qX9tQSp9+ED3+-- From anne@oestergaard.nu Mon Jun 5 09:40:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 214FC3B08AB for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:40:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02988-06 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:40:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46C153B0874 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:40:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA90A245038 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:40:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id DC24D75034D for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:40:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 23250 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 13:40:22 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 13:40:22 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: foundation-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 15:40:21 +0200 Message-Id: <1149514822.4447.55.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.285 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.177, BAYES_40=-0.185, TW_PL=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -1.285 X-Spam-Level: Subject: The 3rd International GPLv3 Conference: Takes place in CCCB, Barcelona, Spain, June 22nd & 23rd X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:40:40 -0000 The 3rd International GPLv3 Conference: Takes place in CCCB, Barcelona, Spain, June 22nd & 23rd! The venue has now been confirmed as Aula 1, Centre de Cultura Contemporanea (CCCB).www.cccb.org/ Important information especially to those of you who are going to this years GUADEC and have not yet brought your traveling ticket and to all of you living near by. Just before GUADEC starts there is this very important conference taking place in Barcelona: The 3rd International GPLv3 Conference: CCCB, Barcelona, Spain, June 22nd & 23rd http://fsfeurope.org/projects/gplv3/europe-gplv3-conference It is very important to all GNOME and other developers of Free- and Open Source Software to follow closely and participate in the discussions on how we would like the final version of GPLv3 to be. This is not a matter for lawyers only but a vital question for everyone who has an interest in software freedom and how you make it possible to share and build upon the ideas of each other in order to get a more free, fair, ethic, and democratic international society. It is also vital for creating the best possible legal as well as technical environment and conditions for future innovation. Best regards Anne From anne@oestergaard.nu Mon Jun 5 09:42:10 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5315D3B08BA for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:42:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02993-10 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:42:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 549A53B086F for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:42:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user5.cybercity.dk (user5.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.51]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BB1724518C for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:42:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user5.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 341613A2411 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:42:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 23285 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 13:42:05 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 13:42:05 -0000 Dato: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 18:11:26 +0200 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: foundation-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 15:42:04 +0200 Message-Id: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.785 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.675, BAYES_05=-1.11] X-Spam-Score: -1.785 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:42:10 -0000 Hello all GNOME Foundation Members, About the size of the present board. The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño. Background: Not so long ago we had a Reducing Board Size Referendum "Should the board size be reduced from its current 11 directors to 7 directors?" The Referendum Results: 188 members voted for this referendum. The repartition of the votes is: yes (117 votes) no (70 votes) blank votes: 1 The board is at the moment of the opinion that a GNOME Board of 7 persons should normally work and be enough, provided that we have a staff person who can take part of the work load. Also at present a couple of the 7 board members have been given additional responsibilities at their ordinary work places and/or enlarged their family so they are pressed for time for "heavy" board work. Since the board has not yet hired anybody (we are in the process of doing so), the board would suggest to you that for the remaining of this year, we ask Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño to join the board. They are both happy and willing to join the board, but under the condition that there is not severe objections from the GNOME Foundation Members. I think that I need not tell you, that the two candidates in question are highly respected for their long time great contributions to the GNOME project and the GNOME community spirit. Being responsible for having proposed this temporary compromise solution, I naturally hope for your blessings. Please react within 10 days if you have problems with enlarging the board by inviting Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño to join the GNOME Board of Directors for the rest of 2006. Best wishes Anne From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Mon Jun 5 12:52:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C85B63B03D4 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 12:52:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15369-05 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 12:52:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 54F843B059A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 12:52:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 5 Jun 2006 17:52:10 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 17:52:09 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 16:52:14 -0000 On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Anne [ISO-8859-1] =D8stergaard wrote: > Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 15:42:04 +0200 > From: "Anne [ISO-8859-1] =D8stergaard" > To: foundation-list@gnome.org > Subject: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons > > Hello all GNOME Foundation Members, > > About the size of the present board. > > The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the > board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germ=C3=A1n Po=C3=B3-Caama=C3= =B1o. > > Background: > Not so long ago we had a Reducing Board Size Referendum > > "Should the board size be reduced from its current 11 directors to 7 > directors?" The way I always thought of the purpose of the referendum was that it should be possible - in fact it is a necessity - that others beyond the official board be involved in organising. The number of people on the board seems to be a symptom of the fact that it is difficult to get people involved and helping out with the foundation any other way. > The board is at the moment of the opinion that a GNOME Board of 7 > persons should normally work and be enough, provided that we have a > staff person who can take part of the work load. Being officially on the Gnome Foundation board is a nice way to provide more recognition for the people who work on behalf of Gnome but is it really necessary to give official titles to get people to help out in this way? (Perhaps it is, I'm assuming nothing at this point and I certainly dont want to discourage those who work to help keep the Gnome Foudnatoin organised.) Would a board of 15 people get huge amounts of work done, or would it hamper decision making? Could there be some kind of a secondary board, or council or committee or whatever you want to call it with a more fluid membership formed from those actively helping at any given time, requiring only a nomination from the board? That might give the flexibility required and provide another way to recognise all the work being done on our behalf. > They are both happy and willing to join the board, but under the > condition that there is not severe objections from the GNOME Foundation > Members. The way the referendum was written it did leave it open for the board to reexpand later at their own discretion. If you are really convinced it will help I wont make an issue of it but there might be a better way and you could take successful referendum as encouragement to think about it a little further if this is the best way to organise the board in the long run. --=20 Alan From baris@teamforce.name.tr Mon Jun 5 13:07:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 383823B0007 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:07:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16437-06 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:07:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nerd.com.tr (nerd.com.tr [69.60.117.115]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 473403B038A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:07:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nerd.com.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D19D784E6A; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:10:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nerd.com.tr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (nerd.com.tr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00433-08; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:10:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (unknown [81.213.157.51]) by nerd.com.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id F10EC784E68; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:10:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Baris Cicek To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-FNyi3F0n+O+x6eo3x6Zz" Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:07:03 +0300 Message-Id: <1149527224.2470.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 (2.6.1-1.fc5.2) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at nerd.com.tr X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.239 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.360, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.239 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 17:07:18 -0000 --=-FNyi3F0n+O+x6eo3x6Zz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anne you better also send this mail to foundation-announce because every foundation member might not be subscribed here, but they do to foundation-announce. Also I wonder why Board need to enlarge its size, but instead asking for help outside the board. Like delegating some work to groups and just stay as a decision maker? As a side note, as far as I remember the biggest argument for reducing board size is because it was harder to decide with too much noise in board, which made being in decision maker position harder. Isn't it better to get over this problem first, which next year's or later year's boards would suffer again, instead of temporary solutions On Mon, 2006-06-05 at 15:42 +0200, Anne =C3=98stergaard wrote: > Hello all GNOME Foundation Members, >=20 > About the size of the present board. >=20 > The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the > board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germ=C3=A1n Po=C3=B3-Caama=C3= =B1o.=20 >=20 > Background: > Not so long ago we had a Reducing Board Size Referendum >=20 > "Should the board size be reduced from its current 11 directors to 7 > directors?" =20 >=20 > The Referendum Results: >=20 > 188 members voted for this referendum. The repartition of the votes is:=20 >=20 > yes (117 votes) > no (70 votes) > blank votes: 1 >=20 >=20 > The board is at the moment of the opinion that a GNOME Board of 7 > persons should normally work and be enough, provided that we have a > staff person who can take part of the work load. >=20 > Also at present a couple of the 7 board members have been given > additional responsibilities at their ordinary work places and/or > enlarged their family so they are pressed for time for "heavy" board > work. >=20 > Since the board has not yet hired anybody (we are in the process of > doing so), the board would suggest to you that for the remaining of this > year, we ask Behdad Esfahbod and Germ=C3=A1n Po=C3=B3-Caama=C3=B1o to joi= n the board. >=20 > They are both happy and willing to join the board, but under the > condition that there is not severe objections from the GNOME Foundation > Members. >=20 > I think that I need not tell you, that the two candidates in question > are highly respected for their long time great contributions to the > GNOME project and the GNOME community spirit. >=20 > Being responsible for having proposed this temporary compromise > solution, I naturally hope for your blessings. >=20 > Please react within 10 days if you have problems with enlarging the > board by inviting Behdad Esfahbod and Germ=C3=A1n Po=C3=B3-Caama=C3=B1o t= o join the > GNOME Board of Directors for the rest of 2006. >=20 >=20 > Best wishes >=20 > Anne >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > foundation-list mailing list > foundation-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list --=-FNyi3F0n+O+x6eo3x6Zz Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEhGS362fLHU++kcURAuOQAKDH1XkUp5jJbQgoPaZQ7rYkLmIb8QCgy4nV 2JPZyV+MSHCcejDwfcLG4Ao= =B3LD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-FNyi3F0n+O+x6eo3x6Zz-- From ted@leary.csoft.net Mon Jun 5 13:09:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0E4F3B050E for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:09:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16633-04 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:08:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail63.csoft.net (mail63.csoft.net [205.205.214.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A7A9B3B01A1 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:08:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 21562 invoked by uid 1373); 5 Jun 2006 17:08:55 -0000 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 12:08:55 -0500 (EST) From: ted@gould.cx X-X-Sender: ted@leary2.csoft.net To: Alan Horkan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.638 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_REAL_NAME=0.961] X-Spam-Score: -1.638 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 17:09:00 -0000 Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Alan Horkan wrote: > The way I always thought of the purpose of the referendum was that it > should be possible - in fact it is a necessity - that others beyond the > official board be involved in organising. The number of people on the > board seems to be a symptom of the fact that it is difficult to get people > involved and helping out with the foundation any other way. I agree with Alan on this (and if you read the Inkscape list, you know that Alan and I don't agree that much :) If these people want to help out, and there are tasks that the board wishes to assign to them, that'd be great. And, I would consider "did X for the board" a great plus on any candidacy statement for the next election. But, they can't be members of the board without an election. --Ted From domlachowicz@gmail.com Mon Jun 5 13:21:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D69E23B08A1 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:21:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17259-02 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:21:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.197]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 413FF3B006C for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:21:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so1207436wxd for ; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:21:23 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=QDbgo9tjZO3vERpfPc6acQItV9f5RiD/en/qTooxz0+9N7z/Wh3n9xA7QUGtyedsQWgL8ZsAdGcAjmkWhWahcnp9Q/bEnckByLEaDsr9CzOSRAUwv6913Dsiu0tpMcnIlF9SduUdcophPsryyANBrCdSJUPAo5jt0+Cb0JFYTNQ= Received: by 10.70.27.12 with SMTP id a12mr6287613wxa; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:21:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.116.12 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 10:21:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:21:23 -0400 From: "Dominic Lachowicz" To: "ted@gould.cx" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.717 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.606, BAYES_05=-1.11, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.717 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 17:21:28 -0000 > Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > > Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. It doesn't seem to be entirely arbitrary. The 3 "appointees" were the next 3 highest vote-getters in the 2005 elections. http://foundation.gnome.org/vote/results.php?election_id=2 > candidacy statement for the next election. But, they can't be members of > the board without an election. The Foundation's charter apparently says (in at least two places) that they can appoint members without an election: http://foundation.gnome.org/about/charter/ "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows, subject to approval by the board or referendum of the membership." "Between elections, board vacancies or new board slots shall be filled by appointment by the board of directors." The charter is, of course, amendable via referendum. I like all of the people appointed and appreciate that they were all the next highest vote-getters in the 2005 election. They'd do a great job on the board. But I must admit, it feels a little strange that a third of the foundation's board would be appointed if this were to pass. Would it be preferable if instead some of the work were farmed out to willing volunteers, rather than expanding the board's size? Why should we prefer the board's size to grow rather than taking this proposed alternative? Best, Dom -- Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums. From newren@gmail.com Mon Jun 5 13:22:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB4663B0921 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:22:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17203-06 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:22:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.199]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 376D33B026A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:22:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so1207646wxd for ; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:22:30 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=OsYHaW/07fQqwe80q4hzPlzWBWo0iKC1ms5AzFCgOL01x90L/CgrtB8FAvc/B7jdgfR4E5+bwA16yZhyEdTV7ZJZMtPxfOiTfS7edcdCBqilBZ76ZpgPPXn6BHsl5GCmsCEr8VTwpyKYXgP2m1GRgJqWswUUblAS0gYfATQBWww= Received: by 10.70.71.12 with SMTP id t12mr6302640wxa; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.7 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 10:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51419b2c0606051022u66212d1at72d1a175728953b8@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 11:22:29 -0600 From: "Elijah Newren" To: "ted@gould.cx" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.567 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.033, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.567 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 17:22:34 -0000 On 6/5/06, ted@gould.cx wrote: > > Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > > Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. It doesn't look at all arbitrary to me. Behdad and German ran for the board last year and are the highest two vote receivers who aren't on the board. > > On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Alan Horkan wrote: > > The way I always thought of the purpose of the referendum was that it > > should be possible - in fact it is a necessity - that others beyond the > > official board be involved in organising. The number of people on the > > board seems to be a symptom of the fact that it is difficult to get people > > involved and helping out with the foundation any other way. > > I agree with Alan on this (and if you read the Inkscape list, you know > that Alan and I don't agree that much :) If these people want to help > out, and there are tasks that the board wishes to assign to them, that'd > be great. And, I would consider "did X for the board" a great plus on any > candidacy statement for the next election. But, they can't be members of > the board without an election. There may be reasons to object to this, but I disagree with this reasoning. There was an election. Besides -- what about the case where Luis resigned just recently? Your reasoning would say that he can't be replaced. Is that really what you're suggesting? From vuntz@gnome.org Mon Jun 5 14:45:25 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B49783B0A30 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:45:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22597-04 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:45:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fennas.vuntz.net (fennas.vuntz.net [82.228.182.88]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BB153B097F for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:45:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from latronche.vuntz.net (latronche.vuntz.net [10.0.0.7]) by fennas.vuntz.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4233811267D for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 20:45:23 +0200 (CEST) From: Vincent Untz To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:47:22 +0200 Message-Id: <1149533242.30799.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.56 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.039, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.56 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 18:45:25 -0000 Le lundi 05 juin 2006 à 13:21 -0400, Dominic Lachowicz a écrit : > > candidacy statement for the next election. But, they can't be members of > > the board without an election. > > The Foundation's charter apparently says (in at least two places) that > they can appoint members without an election: > > http://foundation.gnome.org/about/charter/ > > "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows, > subject to approval by the board or referendum of the membership." > > "Between elections, board vacancies or new board slots shall be filled > by appointment by the board of directors." > > The charter is, of course, amendable via referendum. Thanks Dom. I guess it's a good occasion to remind people to read the Foundation charter, especially if they are members of the Foundation :-) Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. From aguelzow@taliesin.ca Mon Jun 5 15:06:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2890B3B03AD for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:06:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23796-04 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:06:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.mail.interbaun.com (smtp01.mail.interbaun.com [199.185.130.39]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74DDC3B026A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:06:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 20591 invoked by uid 502); 5 Jun 2006 19:06:31 -0000 Received: from 226.207-229-35-0.interbaun.com (207.229.35.226) by smtp01.mail.interbaun.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 19:06:31 -0000 From: "Andreas J. Guelzow" To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Taliesin Software Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:05:38 -0600 Message-Id: <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:06:34 -0000 On Mon, 2006-05-06 at 13:21 -0400, Dominic Lachowicz wrote: > > Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > > > > Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > > everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. > > It doesn't seem to be entirely arbitrary. The 3 "appointees" were the > next 3 highest vote-getters in the 2005 elections. In other words, they lost the election. > > http://foundation.gnome.org/vote/results.php?election_id=2 > > > candidacy statement for the next election. But, they can't be members of > > the board without an election. > > The Foundation's charter apparently says (in at least two places) that > they can appoint members without an election: > > http://foundation.gnome.org/about/charter/ > > "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows, > subject to approval by the board or referendum of the membership." > > "Between elections, board vacancies or new board slots shall be filled > by appointment by the board of directors." This is different from temporarily appointing 2 additional members. Of course the board can add new seats, but they will then be permanent until (again?) removed via a referendum. Andreas -- Andreas J. Guelzow Pyrenean Shepherds From anne@oestergaard.nu Mon Jun 5 15:18:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CB5D3B07BB for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:18:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24554-02 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:18:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero1.cybercity.dk (cicero1.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92A023B077A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:18:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id D758763EE23 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:18:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 837677502C0 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:18:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 26566 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 19:18:19 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 19:18:19 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Alan Horkan In-Reply-To: References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:18:18 +0200 Message-Id: <1149535098.4447.95.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.529 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.070, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.529 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:18:36 -0000 man, 05 06 2006 kl. 17:52 +0100, skrev Alan Horkan: > On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Anne [ISO-8859-1] stergaard wrote: > > > Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 15:42:04 +0200 > > From: "Anne [ISO-8859-1] stergaard" > > To: foundation-list@gnome.org > > Subject: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons > > > > Hello all GNOME Foundation Members, > > > > About the size of the present board. > > > > The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the > > board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño. > > > > Background: > > Not so long ago we had a Reducing Board Size Referendum > > > > "Should the board size be reduced from its current 11 directors to 7 > > directors?" > > The way I always thought of the purpose of the referendum was that it > should be possible - in fact it is a necessity - that others beyond the > official board be involved in organising. The number of people on the > board seems to be a symptom of the fact that it is difficult to get people > involved and helping out with the foundation any other way. > > > The board is at the moment of the opinion that a GNOME Board of 7 > > persons should normally work and be enough, provided that we have a > > staff person who can take part of the work load. > > Being officially on the Gnome Foundation board is a nice way to provide > more recognition for the people who work on behalf of Gnome but is it > really necessary to give official titles to get people to help out in this > way? (Perhaps it is, I'm assuming nothing at this point and I certainly > dont want to discourage those who work to help keep the Gnome Foudnatoin > organised.) > > Would a board of 15 people get huge amounts of work done, or would it > hamper decision making? > > Could there be some kind of a secondary board, or council or committee or > whatever you want to call it with a more fluid membership formed from > those actively helping at any given time, requiring only a nomination from > reallythe board? That might give the flexibility required and provide another > way to recognise all the work being done on our behalf. I really think this is a good idea. We need to be better at delegating. But we get stuck when we talk about how it should be done in practice. However we have asked different members of our community for help and gotten it at several occasions, so I guess we are learning. Having a list of persons who has got time and energy to help prepare a case and make a recommendation to the board should make it so much easier for the board. I am all for that we let foundation members and even not yet foundation members sign up om a helpers Wiki page telling a little about which interests they have, how long they have been involved in the GNOME project, which kind of things they have helped out with before etc. But until we have found a proper form for how we delegate tasks I am afraid that we are short of heads and hands. Lets have an informal BoF at GUADEC on good delegation practice in GNOME. I am all for it. Anne From anne@oestergaard.nu Mon Jun 5 15:22:14 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80BEC3B038A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:22:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24742-05 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:22:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero1.cybercity.dk (cicero1.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 542403B00BE for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:22:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user3.cybercity.dk (user3.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.36]) by cicero1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36AC663E93E for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:22:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user3.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id E635293DC2 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:22:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 26602 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 19:22:10 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 19:22:10 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: ted@gould.cx In-Reply-To: References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:22:09 +0200 Message-Id: <1149535330.4447.101.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.53 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.069, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.53 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:22:14 -0000 man, 05 06 2006 kl. 12:08 -0500, skrev ted@gould.cx: > Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > > Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. OK these two persons were next on the list of persons who nearly made it to the board.(Only a few votes difference to those getting elected.) So it was not a random choice. Anne From ted@leary.csoft.net Mon Jun 5 15:35:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BF673B0947 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:35:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25691-08 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:35:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail63.csoft.net (mail63.csoft.net [205.205.214.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id ECAFE3B0668 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:35:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 4151 invoked by uid 1373); 5 Jun 2006 19:35:50 -0000 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:35:50 -0500 (EST) From: ted@gould.cx X-X-Sender: ted@leary2.csoft.net To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149535330.4447.101.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149535330.4447.101.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-2040552725-1149536150=:22433" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.638 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_REAL_NAME=0.961] X-Spam-Score: -1.638 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:35:57 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-2040552725-1149536150=:22433 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Anne =D8stergaard wrote: > man, 05 06 2006 kl. 12:08 -0500, skrev ted@gould.cx: >> Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) >> >> Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect >> everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. > > OK these two persons were next on the list of persons who nearly made it > to the board.(Only a few votes difference to those getting elected.) > > So it was not a random choice. Sorry, I didn't take the time to look at who you were suggesting. I still= =20 don't believe that the board should be adding members to itself without an= =20 election, whether they can or not. I think actions like that leave too=20 much room for cronyism in the future. As for getting people involved, perhaps posting to this list? I realize=20 it's hard to find tasks that someone might be able to pick up and do, but= =20 it is usually worthwhile in the end. Perhaps a "TODO" list on=20 live.gnome.org of things that the board is planning on doing, and will do,= =20 but if someone wants to beat them to it :) Perhaps something in the=20 meeting minutes? =09=09--Ted --0-2040552725-1149536150=:22433-- From anne@oestergaard.nu Mon Jun 5 15:40:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ADBC3B099D for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:40:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25830-05 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:40:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 986293B0947 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:40:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user4.cybercity.dk (user4.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.50]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 606272453B1 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:40:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user4.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 2483750391 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:40:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 26767 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 19:39:59 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 19:39:59 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Baris Cicek In-Reply-To: <1149527224.2470.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149527224.2470.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:39:59 +0200 Message-Id: <1149536399.4447.120.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.531 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.068, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.531 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:40:12 -0000 man, 05 06 2006 kl. 20:07 +0300, skrev Baris Cicek: > Anne you better also send this mail to foundation-announce because every > foundation member might not be subscribed here, but they do to > foundation-announce. I will do so. > Also I wonder why Board need to enlarge its size, but instead asking for > help outside the board. Like delegating some work to groups and just > stay as a decision maker? This is the way I would like to se things being delegated. I quite old and well proven way of doing it. > As a side note, as far as I remember the biggest argument for reducing > board size is because it was harder to decide with too much noise in > board, which made being in decision maker position harder. Isn't it > better to get over this problem first, which next year's or later year's > boards would suffer again, instead of temporary solutions We are in reality down to 5+ persons at times and this is not enough at the moment. We are getting the the Advisory Board more involved and the technical/or embedded devices group started so we are quite busy. If we do not get two more persons on the board, I think that we risk that the busy persons step down, and we will get the good new persons on board any way, but at the risk of loosing continuity and experience. It takes a little while before completely new board members get the feeling of how things are being done and which things must be taken care of first to get the business running. ( I am here talking of book keeping, accounting and financial insight and overview.) Anne From anne@oestergaard.nu Mon Jun 5 15:50:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 439B73B0952 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:50:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26247-10 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:50:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero1.cybercity.dk (cicero1.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63D3A3B058A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:50:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CDAC63F924 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:50:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id B2E0F750057 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:50:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 26992 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 19:50:38 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 19:50:38 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: ted@gould.cx In-Reply-To: References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149535330.4447.101.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:50:37 +0200 Message-Id: <1149537038.4447.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.531 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.068, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.531 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:50:49 -0000 man, 05 06 2006 kl. 14:35 -0500, skrev ted@gould.cx: > On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Anne stergaard wrote: > > man, 05 06 2006 kl. 12:08 -0500, skrev ted@gould.cx: > >> Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > >> > >> Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > >> everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. > > > > OK these two persons were next on the list of persons who nearly made it > > to the board.(Only a few votes difference to those getting elected.) > > > > So it was not a random choice. > > Sorry, I didn't take the time to look at who you were suggesting. I still > don't believe that the board should be adding members to itself without an > election, whether they can or not. I think actions like that leave too > much room for cronyism in the future. The problem is that it sometimes takes as long time to describe the tasks as simply doing them yourself. Also you have to check if people are doing what they said they would do and within reasonable time. You need to know people better in order to know if they just say yes and then forget all about it or they deliver if they have said they will. May be we should find a people and tasks manager. But this being said we all agree on the board that we shall delegate more and more tasks to the community because this is real important for the growth and continuity of our community. We are trying, Ted. Anne From dneary@free.fr Mon Jun 5 15:54:31 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C7B23B0011 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:54:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26894-05 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:54:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2-g19.free.fr (smtp2-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.28]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B8083B0012 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:54:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp2-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E624731A6; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:54:27 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:54:02 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060521) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Andreas J. Guelzow" References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> In-Reply-To: <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:54:31 -0000 Hi Andrew, Andreas J. Guelzow wrote: > On Mon, 2006-05-06 at 13:21 -0400, Dominic Lachowicz wrote: >> "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows, >> subject to approval by the board or referendum of the membership." >> >> "Between elections, board vacancies or new board slots shall be filled >> by appointment by the board of directors." > > This is different from temporarily appointing 2 additional members. Of > course the board can add new seats, but they will then be permanent > until (again?) removed via a referendum. No - the referendum last year was non-binding (as mentioned afterwards by Dom, I think). The board has the power to decide before the elections each year how many seats will be available. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From aguelzow@taliesin.ca Mon Jun 5 16:08:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DF1E3B0011 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:08:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27618-01 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:07:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp02.mail.interbaun.com (smtp02auth.mail.interbaun.com [199.185.130.52]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 19A263B0129 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:07:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 29676 invoked by uid 502); 5 Jun 2006 20:01:14 -0000 Received: from 226.207-229-35-0.interbaun.com (207.229.35.226) by smtp02.mail.interbaun.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 20:01:14 -0000 From: "Andreas J. Guelzow" To: Gnome Foundation In-Reply-To: <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Taliesin Software Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 14:00:22 -0600 Message-Id: <1149537622.6058.61.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:08:00 -0000 On Mon, 2006-05-06 at 21:54 +0200, David Neary wrote: > Hi Andrew, > > Andreas J. Guelzow wrote: > > On Mon, 2006-05-06 at 13:21 -0400, Dominic Lachowicz wrote: > >> "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows, > >> subject to approval by the board or referendum of the membership." > >> > >> "Between elections, board vacancies or new board slots shall be filled > >> by appointment by the board of directors." > > > > This is different from temporarily appointing 2 additional members. Of > > course the board can add new seats, but they will then be permanent > > until (again?) removed via a referendum. > > No - the referendum last year was non-binding (as mentioned afterwards > by Dom, I think). The board has the power to decide before the elections > each year how many seats will be available. So, the board can decide how many people it wants to have elected and then it can add an arbitrary number of additional members after the election. Why do we have elections in the first place? Of course "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows". Has trhe project really grown that significantly since the last election? Andreas From dneary@free.fr Mon Jun 5 16:09:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 971FF3B01AE for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:09:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27618-09 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:09:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp5-g19.free.fr (smtp5-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.35]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 864F73B002C for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:09:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp5-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB3212774B; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 22:09:28 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <44848F5A.3090300@free.fr> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 22:08:58 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060521) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ted@gould.cx References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149535330.4447.101.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:09:33 -0000 Hi, ted@gould.cx wrote: > As for getting people involved, perhaps posting to this list? I realize > it's hard to find tasks that someone might be able to pick up and do, > but it is usually worthwhile in the end. Perhaps a "TODO" list on > live.gnome.org of things that the board is planning on doing, and will > do, but if someone wants to beat them to it :) Perhaps something in the > meeting minutes? This point has come up a couple of times. Getting people onto the board (or at least onto board-list and on the conference calls) is useful, because a fair amount of what the board isn't doing well this year (primarily because we don't have an employee, it has to be said) is private, or requires a mandate. Things like lodging cheques or withdrawing money from the bank account, dealing with our accountant to get official forms or information on the foundation, invoicing companies for money, being aware of donations coming in and thanking donors (who potentially want to stay anonymous), things like that. There are many things that we could perhaps do more out in the open, and filtering our agendas and minutes better into public/private parts (as we started to do at the beginning of the year), posting them in a more regular and timely manner, and so on. All of those tasks take time, along with all of the other slack we've been picking up, and (as Anne pointed out) the changes in the personal and work lives of a few board members, distribution releases, births, job changes, travel with work and so on. But all the stuff that we're struggling with at the moment is kind of private stuff - which means having some kind of non-public inner circle of people - perhaps not on the board, but at least in some way engaged to respect board secrecy. Anything that we have been able to do in public (or avoid doing by delegating), we've been mostly doing. For what it's worth, I think most of our problems will go away once we have an employee, but back in October, I said that one reason why we shouldn't be afraid to reduce the number was because we would always have the possibility to increase it again if we realised we had made a mistake. I definitely thought that a few months ago, but when we had Zana as our admin, she not only caught up with the backlog, we had the impression that things were really moving forward. At the moment, we don't have 7 active, regularly answering their board mail board members. I think 6 active board members is probably enough to hold down the fort, if no important functions are missing, but we're more likely to have 6 or 7 active out of 9 than out of 7. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From dneary@free.fr Mon Jun 5 16:15:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40E3C3B002C for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:15:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28035-03 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:15:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1-g19.free.fr (smtp1-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.27]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 002103B0208 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:15:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp1-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2337A9AC97; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 22:14:59 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <448490A4.5070904@free.fr> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 22:14:28 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060521) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Andreas J. Guelzow" References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> <1149537622.6058.61.camel@localhost> In-Reply-To: <1149537622.6058.61.camel@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Gnome Foundation Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:15:03 -0000 Hi, Andreas J. Guelzow wrote: > So, the board can decide how many people it wants to have elected and > then it can add an arbitrary number of additional members after the > election. Why do we have elections in the first place? The board must have at least 7 people. Aside from that, your summary is correct. But then, we're supposed to trust our board members at election time - that's why we vote for them, isn't it? :) Seriously - the board will not abuse this, but co-opting members onto the board to handle workload is a common occurrence - as is setting up empowered sub-committees. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From newren@gmail.com Mon Jun 5 16:29:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6877C3B03EA for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:29:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29362-06 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.205]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FB293B06D7 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so1248330wxd for ; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:29:14 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=c0DI0gAqSXwHBKoFxTl2TtOdhohkR7RE11uhZPi32bUo3Db8eVQxiyFtijAYvj0mM1N8hFRyyMEejGtQxltidUZuBOYGPMXcRg7kfKRC/4YgSX/MXW3+uh+5JHFjOra8K4QYb3i+t2rdSQLUefDuiKH0Z/2TJU4kKbAWbjBlig8= Received: by 10.70.113.20 with SMTP id l20mr6543579wxc; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.7 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51419b2c0606051329p7c73e3a2p94a15b77e9cd5585@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:29:11 -0600 From: "Elijah Newren" To: "David Neary" In-Reply-To: <448490A4.5070904@free.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> <1149537622.6058.61.camel@localhost> <448490A4.5070904@free.fr> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.569 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.031, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.569 X-Spam-Level: Cc: "Andreas J. Guelzow" , Gnome Foundation Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:29:18 -0000 On 6/5/06, David Neary wrote: > > Hi, > > Andreas J. Guelzow wrote: > > So, the board can decide how many people it wants to have elected and > > then it can add an arbitrary number of additional members after the > > election. Why do we have elections in the first place? > > The board must have at least 7 people. Aside from that, your summary is > correct. But then, we're supposed to trust our board members at election > time - that's why we vote for them, isn't it? :) > > Seriously - the board will not abuse this, but co-opting members onto > the board to handle workload is a common occurrence - as is setting up > empowered sub-committees. Would the board lose anything by creating an empowered sub-committee here specifically consisting of Behdad and German? That would seem to quell most of the problems people have voiced against the proposal, and perhaps still allow all the same stuff to get done. I'm thinking here of the analogy to the release team -- the board formed the release-team (and still has oversight of it, if necessary), yet release-team members (assuming they are not also board members) have no board powers other than the release-team tasks they have been delegated to handle. I could be wrong, but judging from the comments so far, I believe that handles the delegation many people want to see. From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 5 18:42:02 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13AC73B03A0 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 18:42:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06160-02 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 18:42:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75B993B039F for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 18:42:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k55Mfwkk003546 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:41:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J0E00701RZ13Q@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for foundation-list@gnome.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 23:41:58 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-116-52.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.116.52]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J0E00E5MSDY03@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 23:41:58 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 00:08:39 +0100 From: Bill Haneman In-reply-to: <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> To: David Neary Message-id: <1149548919.12099.8.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: Cc: "Andreas J. Guelzow" , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 22:42:02 -0000 On Mon, 2006-06-05 at 20:54, David Neary wrote: > Hi Andrew,... > No - the referendum last year was non-binding (as mentioned afterwards > by Dom, I think). The board has the power to decide before the elections > each year how many seats will be available. Having only recently had a referendum on this (or at least a closely related issue, e.g. the size of the Board), I think that if the Board wants to retain the goodwill and trust of the electorate it should abide by the referendum results. A key argument in favor of the "reduce the size of the Board" referendum was that it would be accompanied by expanded delegation and the formation of subcommittees/action groups etc. to which tasks would be delegated by the Board. Let's do it! Bill > Cheers, > Dave. > > -- > Dave Neary > bolsh@gimp.org > Lyon, France > _______________________________________________ > foundation-list mailing list > foundation-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list From Glynn.Foster@Sun.COM Mon Jun 5 23:20:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A19F3B00AE for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 23:20:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19367-02 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 23:20:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 128553B00A2 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 23:20:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-06.sun.com (d1-emea-06.sun.com [192.18.2.116] (may be forged)) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k563Jxnp029303 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:19:59 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-06.sun.com by d1-emea-06.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0F0060154EH200@d1-emea-06.sun.com> (original mail from Glynn.Foster@Sun.COM) for foundation-list@gnome.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 04:19:59 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.18.42.16] by d1-emea-06.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0F004ED595ZZ20@d1-emea-06.sun.com>; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 04:19:58 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 15:23:21 +1200 From: Glynn Foster In-reply-to: <448490A4.5070904@free.fr> Sender: Glynn.Foster@Sun.COM To: David Neary Message-id: <4484F529.9010505@sun.com> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> <1149537622.6058.61.camel@localhost> <448490A4.5070904@free.fr> User-Agent: Mail/News 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060515) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.596 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.002, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.596 X-Spam-Level: Cc: "Andreas J. Guelzow" , Gnome Foundation Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 03:20:07 -0000 Hi, David Neary wrote: > Hi, > > Andreas J. Guelzow wrote: >> So, the board can decide how many people it wants to have elected and >> then it can add an arbitrary number of additional members after the >> election. Why do we have elections in the first place? > > The board must have at least 7 people. Aside from that, your summary is > correct. But then, we're supposed to trust our board members at election > time - that's why we vote for them, isn't it? :) > > Seriously - the board will not abuse this, but co-opting members onto > the board to handle workload is a common occurrence - as is setting up > empowered sub-committees. Will the new members have full voting rights on the board? I'm not sure I really mind either way given my previous experiences on the board, but I think we need to be careful about this since we're setting a precedent here. Glynn From james.henstridge@gmail.com Tue Jun 6 00:48:09 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 999093B007A for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 00:48:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22963-06 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 00:48:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.197]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE4EB3B0012 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 00:48:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so1343934wxd for ; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:48:07 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=s6W90tAFFMqbeF1zOA6cMOwf/4VT54VrjJ+T2QKnHBmd3wsR7fZ7AkQ83efEHduxKZMd4Wjbyv4ZlmUgVwusdTpfYGO4/1uQGQ9QGvp79F5CwIfJVkentnyjFKl4FNde0NN0q2W1cJ2Qogm71qV/5PMIAgV93neIPJUDMtvGjzc= Received: by 10.70.109.7 with SMTP id h7mr7003673wxc; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.60.15 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:48:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 12:48:06 +0800 From: "James Henstridge" Sender: james.henstridge@gmail.com To: "Dominic Lachowicz" In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 62eb23e7e8bd3462 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.582 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.582 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org, "ted@gould.cx" Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 04:48:09 -0000 On 06/06/06, Dominic Lachowicz wrote: > > Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > > > > Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > > everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. > > It doesn't seem to be entirely arbitrary. The 3 "appointees" were the > next 3 highest vote-getters in the 2005 elections. > > http://foundation.gnome.org/vote/results.php?election_id=2 Of course, the results of the elections may have been quite different if Luis didn't stand, and each member had two more votes to cover the additional seats. If this sort of thing is likely to happen again, it might be worth switching to a preferential voting system where we'd have all the information to see what the result would be if a candidate was removed or the number of seats increased. Dispite this, I am sure that Behdad and German would make good additions to the board. James. From jdub@waugh.id.au Tue Jun 6 01:12:02 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9CA63B0092 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:12:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24144-02 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:12:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69B643B0728 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:12:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (ppp121-112.static.internode.on.net [150.101.121.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F89C3C382 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:11:59 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 888F93F9C; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:11:54 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:11:54 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: Reply-By: Fri Jun 9 15:10:21 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 15:10:21 up 4 days, 15:02, 11 users, load average: 0.08, 0.08, 0.01 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.017, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 05:12:02 -0000 > But, they can't be members of the board without an election. Just want to point out that, yes, they can be - please read the Foundation by-laws. The board can change the size of the board at will, and nominate members at will. The referendum process was not done because it was necessary, it was done to understand the will of the membership (and delegate the decision to them). - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ "You gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, and know when to run." - Kenny Rogers, The Gambler From jdub@waugh.id.au Tue Jun 6 01:40:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8905F3B0018 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:40:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25374-02 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:40:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 428533B000D for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:40:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (ppp121-112.static.internode.on.net [150.101.121.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 571303C257 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:40:50 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 797943F9C; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:40:45 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:40:45 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060606054045.GM5138@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Reply-By: Fri Jun 9 15:13:53 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 15:13:53 up 4 days, 15:05, 11 users, load average: 0.09, 0.08, 0.02 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.017, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 05:40:54 -0000 > The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the > board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño. My personal opinion on this, as stated to the board: * We made our bed with the one-two-punch combination of change in board size and change in number of employees (currently zero). * Given that we delegated the decision regarding board size to the members and executed that change, it would be inappropriate only six or so months down the track to change it again. * The biggest problem right now (as I see it) is lack of board member time on the ground in Boston. We can distribute and delegate almost everything else effectively. This is impacting administration tasks and employment plans. * We are attempting to do big things without the benefit of having a face to face meeting. Every board so far has been more effective post-GUADEC, after they've had the opportunity to sit down, grind through the issues with a lot of social bandwidth and look each other up and down a bit. It really helps develop shared vision, shared values and shared trust in a way that mail, phone and IRC can't. - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ "The ability to procrastinate is what separates us from the machines." - Chris Gregory, Desktop Magazine From veillard@redhat.com Tue Jun 6 04:58:29 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E3D33B00ED for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25831-09 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [66.187.233.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D1023B00CB for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k568wKkC013649 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:20 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (devserv.devel.redhat.com [172.16.58.1]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k568wKR7017325 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:20 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k568wK9S021047 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:20 -0400 Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11/Submit) id k568wKOU021040 for foundation-list@gnome.org; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:20 -0400 Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:19 -0400 From: Daniel Veillard To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.367 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.003, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, TW_BX=0.077, TW_IB=0.077, TW_PM=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.367 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 08:58:29 -0000 On Tue, Jun 06, 2006 at 03:11:54PM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > > But, they can't be members of the board without an election. > > Just want to point out that, yes, they can be - please read the Foundation > by-laws. The board can change the size of the board at will, and nominate > members at will. Which is clearly a hole in the democratic process, the right thing to do would be to fix the bylaws, not jump on the loophole as a justification. > The referendum process was not done because it was necessary, it was done to > understand the will of the membership (and delegate the decision to them). And to stay in the spirit of that process you should have avoided this last step. Honnestly this look very weird from the outside, the board looks like contradicting itself on every occasion, provides no information about the day to day business (or I missed the minutes since the bunch posted for March), and the only thing which justify not working by delegation is that most of the operation need to be done in secrecy. That's honnestly not the kind of board process we expected when the bylaws were written, Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat http://redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Tue Jun 6 05:06:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46C313B09F1 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 05:06:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27265-04 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 05:06:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8E9D23B0A35 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 05:06:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 26140 invoked by uid 0); 6 Jun 2006 09:06:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.34]) (83.42.200.49) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 09:06:03 +0000 From: Quim Gil To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-W8w3n7YDvxZf85v0s8N9" Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 11:06:02 +0200 Message-Id: <1149584763.5220.69.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.083 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.439, BAYES_00=-2.599, TW_JR=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.083 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 09:06:34 -0000 --=-W8w3n7YDvxZf85v0s8N9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El dl 05 de 06 del 2006 a les 15:42 +0200, en/na Anne =C3=98stergaard va escriure: > The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the > board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germ=C3=A1n Po=C3=B3-Caama=C3= =B1o.=20 I wasn't in the board when this issue was discussed, and as a new board board I'm unsure what should I do now if I disagree. Transparency is always a good path, I guess.=20 - Consequent with the past Increasing now the board size seems inappropriate after the referendum discussions and result and without having made an extended use of asking explicitly for help and delegating within the GNOME community. - Size is not the problem We seem to agree that the problem is not the size of the board but the current circumstances that make many board members have less time than expected. If size is not the problem, the enlargement is probably not the solution. It's like having unsatisfactory sexual live and going to the doctor to enlarge your breast or your penis. At the beginning it might look like a change and a progress, but the root of the problem is still there, and possibly larger now. - Delegating and collaborating with people out of the board There was a lot of discussion about the few time required to be a good board member, let things happen, stay out of the way... We simply need to put in practice all that. For instance, invite someone to pick the Boston Yellow Pages, make some calls and come up with 3 companies we could hire for our accountancy and representation. Delegations like this might originate some crisis situations but since we are already in a crisis situation... what can we loose? And what can we learn. Adding 2 people to the board might be methadone to keep the problem of not sharing and delegating with less pain. - Too busy to delegate and hire We know the paradox of not having time to delegate or hire, making an overwhelming situation deeper. A solution is to stop the machine consciously (many times is already stopped, unconsciously) and concentrate in delegating. An intermediate option is simply do less things or not letting new tasks start before the delegation/hiring problem is solved. We missed something because of this? Yes, but how many thing are we missing by not delegating/hiring. - The quest of finding the magic full time profile =20 No wonder we didn't find the magic profile: a yin accountant & administrator + a yang fundraiser + based in Boston + competent and available + of course familiar with free software and GNOME (discussed at http://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/2006-April/msg00023.html ). = It is probably better and easier to hire the services of a mercenary busine= ss representation based in Boston + hiring one or more part time people we = know and trust, based wherever and able to travel when it's needed.=20 - Boston (Massachusetts, USA) It is a danger to have a board elected with candidates from everywhere that needs to have at least one member in a specific city: Boston. What if jrb wasn't elected, didn't want to renew or decides to leave some day? This is per se a reason to hire the services of a company (something theoretically more stable than an individual) and visit them every three months, either picking the Boston metro or a flight.=20 - Conclusion The board is overwhelmed and needs help. The fact that the board didn't share the discussion since the earliest stage but came up with a pre-conclusion is, I think, already a symptom of how overwhelmed the board members are and how far we all still are from opening the board and start sharing and delegating with the GNOME community. Many tasks the board can't delegate easily are related to services that can be hired. Let's concentrate on that, while we review publicly the list of priorities and see who can help on what inside / outside the board. Of course nothing of this has to do with the capabilities of Behdad and Germ=C3=A1n, who could be without doubt good board members. It has not to d= o either with the fact that I joined the board as a first patch for this problem. I had these opinions months ago, when I couldn't imagine I would join the board during this year. --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-W8w3n7YDvxZf85v0s8N9 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEhUV6BEzHYk6x634RAlOGAJ468PjA5ogEPfJt4Syb7QDks2mQzACcD/Dt 7SRSwIcbyQMxQ9z9jCLmlLE= =96/Y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-W8w3n7YDvxZf85v0s8N9-- From dneary@free.fr Tue Jun 6 06:16:02 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACD933B0A9E for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 06:16:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06395-09 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 06:16:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp6.wanadoo.fr (smtp6.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.25]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5360F3B0ACF for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 06:15:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf0606.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 398661C00282; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 12:15:12 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060606101512236.398661C00282@mwinf0606.orange.fr Message-ID: <448555B5.5030106@free.fr> Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:15:17 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Quim Gil References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149584763.5220.69.camel@localhost> In-Reply-To: <1149584763.5220.69.camel@localhost> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.54 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, TW_JR=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.54 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 10:16:03 -0000 Hi, Quim Gil wrote: > El dl 05 de 06 del 2006 a les 15:42 +0200, en/na Anne Østergaard va > escriure: > >> The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the >> board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño. > > I wasn't in the board when this issue was discussed, and as a new board > board I'm unsure what should I do now if I disagree. Transparency is > always a good path, I guess. Yes - just disagree. There is/was not unanimity on this point. As Jeff's said, he's against changing. Luis was also. I was the first one to propose increasing the board size in February when we were having trouble coping, but am now unsure, and was absent from the board meeting where it was discussed. > - Boston (Massachusetts, USA) > > It is a danger to have a board elected with candidates from everywhere > that needs to have at least one member in a specific city: Boston. What > if jrb wasn't elected, didn't want to renew or decides to leave some > day? This is per se a reason to hire the services of a company > (something theoretically more stable than an individual) and visit them > every three months, either picking the Boston metro or a flight. I'm unsure what the consequences would be for the foundation if none of the board was in or from the US. I'm not sure there would be any. The insistence on a Boston rep is more convenience than necessity - everyone knows how much more quickly things can go when you need something off someone, and you drop by to meet them face to face. Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From jdub@waugh.id.au Tue Jun 6 06:33:53 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE7743B00CF for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 06:33:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09584-02 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 06:33:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE51F3B0084 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 06:33:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (ppp121-112.static.internode.on.net [150.101.121.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9F223D876 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 20:33:50 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0FA6D3F9C; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 20:33:45 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 20:33:45 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> Reply-By: Fri Jun 9 20:19:56 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 20:19:57 up 4 days, 20:11, 10 users, load average: 0.04, 0.10, 0.03 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.017, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 10:33:53 -0000 > > Just want to point out that, yes, they can be - please read the > > Foundation by-laws. The board can change the size of the board at will, > > and nominate members at will. > > Which is clearly a hole in the democratic process, the right thing to do > would be to fix the bylaws, not jump on the loophole as a justification. Daniel, you misunderstand - I'm not here to justify the loophole, as I do not agree with the proposal in the first place! :-) There are a bunch of things I think we could fix in the bylaws (but I may feel that way simply because they are substantially different from the law and practices that I am used to in Australia). I do think the ability for the board to redefine its size at will is not appropriate. That said, the previous decision to reduce the board to seven members was discussed on the list and delegated to the membership - fully transparent. The board *absolutely* needs the ability to nominate members when a position is vacant. It should not require an election process to execute that - if the (elected) board is not trusted to fill vacant positions, then we have much bigger problems. Considering the current state of affairs, I think it's wholly appropriate that the board is nominating Quim Gil (next in line from previous election results) to fill the position left vacant by Luis' resignation, but I don't believe it's appropriate or necessary for the board to increase the number of directors (with or without referendum, but to answer your charges, mostly without) at this stage. > and the only thing which justify not working by delegation is that most of > the operation need to be done in secrecy. I don't believe anyone has cited 'secrecy', though the word 'private' has come up. Ultimately the workings and decision of the board is not secret at all, but there are activities that require a certain amount of privacy or sensitivity. The process of dealing with employees, and the handling of the accounts (handling, not reporting) are good examples. I don't think this is even remotely controversial - anyone who has participated in the running of a non-profit organisation (including you, Daniel) would be well aware of this kind of balancing. If the board is not appropriately reporting its activities, then any member should feel absolutely comfortable to ask questions and make demands. But I would ask that those questions and demands be specific and reasonable. :-) - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ "It's never been, 'We're doing this for the good of society.' It's always been us taking an intellectual pride in putting out a good product - and making money. If putting a computer on every desktop and in every home didn't make money, we wouldn't do it." - Microserfs From veillard@redhat.com Tue Jun 6 07:33:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 352943B00E0 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16106-09 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [66.187.233.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA3A63B00B4 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k56BXoEq003691 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:50 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (devserv.devel.redhat.com [172.16.58.1]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k56BXonQ013466 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:50 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k56BXo7G005351 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:50 -0400 Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11/Submit) id k56BXnfY005349 for foundation-list@gnome.org; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:49 -0400 Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:49 -0400 From: Daniel Veillard To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060606113349.GW16734@redhat.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.367 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.003, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, TW_BX=0.077, TW_IB=0.077, TW_PM=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.367 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 11:33:52 -0000 On Tue, Jun 06, 2006 at 08:33:45PM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > Considering the current state of affairs, I think it's wholly appropriate > that the board is nominating Quim Gil (next in line from previous election > results) to fill the position left vacant by Luis' resignation, but I don't yes, agreed, it's defining a new practice, but this sounds sane as long as that person is still okay with this. > believe it's appropriate or necessary for the board to increase the number > of directors (with or without referendum, but to answer your charges, mostly > without) at this stage. I can't juge on the 'necessary', but I think it's inappropriate too. > > and the only thing which justify not working by delegation is that most of > > the operation need to be done in secrecy. > > I don't believe anyone has cited 'secrecy', though the word 'private' has > come up. Ultimately the workings and decision of the board is not secret at > all, but there are activities that require a certain amount of privacy or > sensitivity. The process of dealing with employees, and the handling of the > accounts (handling, not reporting) are good examples. I don't think this is > even remotely controversial - anyone who has participated in the running of > a non-profit organisation (including you, Daniel) would be well aware of > this kind of balancing. To have balance one need one opposite side, a perceived one. Sure some details can't be shared, as you know I'm well aware of that, BUT I also always promoted being as public as possible with issues. Currently the board work is opaque, which would be fine if the few signals emitted were good, but 'we are overhelmed we need to reverse to some extend a voted decision' is not a good signal. > If the board is not appropriately reporting its activities, then any member The board is not reporting its activities in a timely fashion. > should feel absolutely comfortable to ask questions and make demands. But I > would ask that those questions and demands be specific and reasonable. :-) Okay, what happen at the board meetings since March, time of last published minutes I could find. I assume it's reasonable request to at least know if you are meeting, and what are the problems/questions you are facing with the details you can share. It then helps getting a sense of how much work need to be done you can't cope with and hence how necessary increasing the board size again really is. I hope my reaction can be understood, and my request not unreasonnable, but really that request should not need to be done, this should be normal process, Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat http://redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From dneary@free.fr Tue Jun 6 08:04:29 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5E283B0141 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:04:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19256-08 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:04:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp9.wanadoo.fr (smtp9.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D9443B008B for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:04:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf0904.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 495E2240019C; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:04:26 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060606120426300.495E2240019C@mwinf0904.orange.fr Message-ID: <44856F50.4000402@free.fr> Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 14:04:32 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: veillard@redhat.com References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606113349.GW16734@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: <20060606113349.GW16734@redhat.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Board meetings since March (was: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:04:30 -0000 Hi, Daniel Veillard wrote: > Okay, what happen at the board meetings since March, time of last published > minutes I could find. I assume it's reasonable request to at least know if > you are meeting, and what are the problems/questions you are facing with > the details you can share. It then helps getting a sense of how much work > need to be done you can't cope with and hence how necessary increasing the > board size again really is. We met on the following dates since the beginning of March: March 1st (minutes sent to foundation-list) March 15th (minutes sent to foundation-list) March 22nd (minutes sent to foundation-list) April 5th April 26th May 17th We also had 2 advisory board meetings (but minutes from those have typically not gone to foundation-list): April 12th May 31st There was a scheduled meeting on the 10th of May which was canceled because of technical problems. The next board meeting is scheduled for tomorrow, June 7th. The minutes for the April 5th and May 17th meetings need to be sanitised for board private issues and sent to the list. We didn't have any phone call for the April 26th meeting, and so the only minutes we have are an IRC log, which again needs to be summarised and sanitised for board privacy issues. The agendas for all meetings should also be reviewed for privacy and confidentiality issues, and sent to the list. I've been sending the agendas to board-list 48 hours before the meeting for comments, and preparing a private/public agenda in the wiki and for the mailing list has proved more effort than I have available for that, and I must admit that it hasn't been a high priority. As an ex board member, you have read-only access to the board wiki pages - would you like to take on this task and help me out? Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From murrayc@murrayc.com Tue Jun 6 08:23:16 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 061193B0186 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:23:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20602-02 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:23:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail3.sd.dreamhost.com (webmail3.sd.dreamhost.com [64.111.100.15]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BC2E3B00B4 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:23:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.murrayc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by webmail3.sd.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E13A714179; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 05:23:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 194.138.18.132 (proxying for unknown) (SquirrelMail authenticated user murrayc@murrayc.com) by webmail.murrayc.com with HTTP; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:23:12 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <60481.194.138.18.132.1149596592.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> In-Reply-To: <44856F50.4000402@free.fr> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606113349.GW16734@redhat.com> <44856F50.4000402@free.fr> Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:23:12 +0200 (CEST) From: "Murray Cumming" To: "Dave Neary" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.548 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.051, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.548 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, veillard@redhat.com Subject: Re: Board meetings since March (was: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:23:16 -0000 > > Hi, > > Daniel Veillard wrote: >> Okay, what happen at the board meetings since March, time of last >> published >> minutes I could find. I assume it's reasonable request to at least know >> if >> you are meeting, and what are the problems/questions you are facing with >> the details you can share. It then helps getting a sense of how much >> work >> need to be done you can't cope with and hence how necessary increasing >> the >> board size again really is. > > We met on the following dates since the beginning of March: > > March 1st (minutes sent to foundation-list) > March 15th (minutes sent to foundation-list) > March 22nd (minutes sent to foundation-list) > April 5th > April 26th > May 17th It really makes life easier if these are added to the list here: http://live.gnome.org/FoundationBoardPublic#head-6903d3d78a8eb091678548773e79000fb5c10292 (Although it doesn't need to be a board member that does that. I blame me.) > We also had 2 advisory board meetings (but minutes from those have > typically not gone to foundation-list): > April 12th > May 31st > > There was a scheduled meeting on the 10th of May which was canceled > because of technical problems. The next board meeting is scheduled for > tomorrow, June 7th. > > The minutes for the April 5th and May 17th meetings need to be sanitised > for board private issues and sent to the list. We didn't have any phone > call for the April 26th meeting, and so the only minutes we have are an > IRC log, which again needs to be summarised and sanitised for board > privacy issues. The agendas for all meetings should also be reviewed for > privacy and confidentiality issues, and sent to the list. > > I've been sending the agendas to board-list 48 hours before the meeting > for comments, and preparing a private/public agenda in the wiki and for > the mailing list has proved more effort than I have available for that, > and I must admit that it hasn't been a high priority. > > As an ex board member, you have read-only access to the board wiki pages > - would you like to take on this task and help me out? I believe everyone has write access to the public pages. Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From veillard@redhat.com Tue Jun 6 08:59:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EE633B00CF for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22495-08 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [66.187.233.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50D123B00B9 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k56Cxdju004443; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:39 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (devserv.devel.redhat.com [172.16.58.1]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k56CxdoC031823; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:39 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k56Cxdrh011349; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:39 -0400 Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11/Submit) id k56Cxdaq011347; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:39 -0400 Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:39 -0400 From: Daniel Veillard To: Dave Neary Message-ID: <20060606125938.GX16734@redhat.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606113349.GW16734@redhat.com> <44856F50.4000402@free.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <44856F50.4000402@free.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.367 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.003, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, TW_BX=0.077, TW_IB=0.077, TW_PM=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.367 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Board meetings since March (was: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:59:45 -0000 On Tue, Jun 06, 2006 at 02:04:32PM +0200, Dave Neary wrote: > The minutes for the April 5th and May 17th meetings need to be sanitised > for board private issues and sent to the list. We didn't have any phone It takes 2 months ? News from 2 months ago are usually not that useful. > call for the April 26th meeting, and so the only minutes we have are an > IRC log, which again needs to be summarised and sanitised for board > privacy issues. The agendas for all meetings should also be reviewed for > privacy and confidentiality issues, and sent to the list. You don't need the agenda to be sent, if you send the minutes in a timely fashion, then people can react if you forgot something. > I've been sending the agendas to board-list 48 hours before the meeting That's nice, but board only, not public awareness, that should make writing minutes even easier. > for comments, and preparing a private/public agenda in the wiki and for > the mailing list has proved more effort than I have available for that, > and I must admit that it hasn't been a high priority. Stuff in the wiki has no persistance, contrary to mail archive, requires web access, and polling or page subscription to monitor state changes. > As an ex board member, you have read-only access to the board wiki pages > - would you like to take on this task and help me out? I don't have much time either, and I disagree with using the Wiki as the way to reach out the community. I think you're not in a very good position to state there isn't enough cycles to run those kind of task, I argued that going from 11 to 7 would be a serious problem, and it's not a matter of having a paid person to do them, the board ought to have the cycles to push the minutes from meeting in a timely fashion delegating this can just lead to more delays and less accuracy. It takes 20, 30mn at worse to edit and post minutes, every 2 weeks. If people on the board don't have that kind of time to offer, then it's a real problem, the only other option would be if current board people didn't think board minutes are important, but in that case they should be frank about this and state it I would not expect or request them. Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat http://redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From dneary@free.fr Tue Jun 6 09:43:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DE4A3B012C for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 09:43:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25372-04 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 09:43:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 642B23B00AB for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 09:43:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf1101.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 3E3B11C0004D; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:43:03 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060606134303255.3E3B11C0004D@mwinf1101.orange.fr Message-ID: <4485866C.5080903@free.fr> Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 15:43:08 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: veillard@redhat.com References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606113349.GW16734@redhat.com> <44856F50.4000402@free.fr> <20060606125938.GX16734@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: <20060606125938.GX16734@redhat.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Board meetings since March X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 13:43:07 -0000 Hi, Daniel Veillard wrote: > On Tue, Jun 06, 2006 at 02:04:32PM +0200, Dave Neary wrote: >> As an ex board member, you have read-only access to the board wiki pages >> - would you like to take on this task and help me out? > > I don't have much time either, and I disagree with using the Wiki as the > way to reach out the community. The private board pages are as good a way as any to prepare an agenda and allow people to edit it easily. Taking that information and splitting it into public/private parts and sending it onto a mailing list is the task I was thinking of. > I think you're not in a very good position to state there isn't enough cycles > to run those kind of task, I argued that going from 11 to 7 would be a serious > problem, and it's not a matter of having a paid person to do them, the board > ought to have the cycles to push the minutes from meeting in a timely fashion > delegating this can just lead to more delays and less accuracy. It takes 20, > 30mn at worse to edit and post minutes, every 2 weeks. If people on the > board don't have that kind of time to offer, then it's a real problem, the > only other option would be if current board people didn't think board minutes > are important, but in that case they should be frank about this and state it > I would not expect or request them. Of course this task is important, and of course one person can take care of it in under an hour after each meeting (half an hour to tidy up notes, and half an hour to take into consideration comments and mail to the list a couple of days later). As I said, the breakage is happening between the preparation of the minutes (which are happening in a timely manner, usually straight after the meeting) and the sending of public minutes to foundation-list a couple of days later. You always did a great job sending out the public minutes. This year, we have not done as good a job. But there is no way I'm saying that increasing the size of the board will help us do a better job - sending minutes out is, and has always been, the job of the secretary - it's not really something that can be shared unless he/she asks someone else to take care of it, or is absent from a meeting. Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From murrayc@murrayc.com Tue Jun 6 16:17:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD4943B0236 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 16:17:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19265-05 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 16:17:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swarthymail-a4.dreamhost.com (mailbigip.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.5]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0753D3B0B04 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 16:17:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from noname (p5497CD77.dip.t-dialin.net [84.151.205.119]) by swarthymail-a4.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92901129A8C; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 13:17:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Murray Cumming To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 22:17:51 +0200 Message-Id: <1149625071.6086.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.06 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.341, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_NJABL_PROXY=0.721, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SOCKS=2.159] X-Spam-Score: -1.06 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 20:17:57 -0000 Here's a positive reply, just so you don't think it's all negative. I'll never figure out how to request a representative sample of replies while also avoiding too many replies. I trust the board to do this and to know if they need to do it, and I have confidence in the proposed new members. I'd prefer delegation, but even the act of delegation requires suitable chunks of time that they might not have right now. If they can't do that quickly then they need to get on and do this now. I supported the reduced-size referendum because I think the board needs to make faster decisions instead of pondering every possibility until the chances have gone by. So well done. If I could set a condition for my Yes, it would be that the new board members would obsessively care for the Foundation's public wiki pages and keep people informed of possible meetings agendas and minutes of completed meetings. You do quite a lot and people should know about it. You might even start referring to not-public-yet agenda items by codenames if necessary, just so we have an idea of how much you are working on. -- Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From murrayc@murrayc.com Wed Jun 7 15:43:39 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBDAC3B01E8 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 15:43:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09531-04 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 15:43:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swarthymail-a1.dreamhost.com (mailbigip.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.5]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AD613B01BA for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 15:43:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from noname (p5497CB1E.dip.t-dialin.net [84.151.203.30]) by swarthymail-a1.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C133D8FE77; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 12:43:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Murray Cumming To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149170374.6894.73.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <1149170374.6894.73.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 21:43:33 +0200 Message-Id: <1149709413.5916.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.98 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.395, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.558, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.456] X-Spam-Score: -0.98 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 19:43:40 -0000 On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 15:59 +0200, Anne Østergaard wrote: > > > Realistically, this plans needs to be written by you. Others will > help you > > > with it, but you need to create it and drive it. [snip] > I will work with the whole of the women in FLOSS community as well as > with the persons who wrote the FLOSSPOLS reports and others who have > written scientific reports and with those of you who are interested. Thanks, Anne. I look forward to reading your suggestions. -- Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From dneary@free.fr Thu Jun 8 17:35:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E6BD3B05F8 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 17:35:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07181-03 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 17:35:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp3-g19.free.fr (smtp3-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.29]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A4A23B000E for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 17:35:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp3-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D47949075; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 23:35:36 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <44889604.7000405@free.fr> Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:26:28 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060521) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alan Cox References: <1147629160.44676e6870cb6@imp1-g19.free.fr> <1147699940.26686.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1147699539.4468815380ca5@imp1-g19.free.fr> <1147702053.26686.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <1147702053.26686.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------040605040600010104040604" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Boilerplate trademark agreement for commercial exploitation X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 21:35:40 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040605040600010104040604 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I was under the impression that I had sent this to the list a long time ago, but I can't find it in the archives, so here, for archival purposes, is the merchandising trademark agreement in .odt - all comments, as usual, are welcome. I'll take the opportunity to thank Dom Lachowitz, who has agreed to take over maintaining the document - I bow to his superior knowledge, and thank him very much for reminding us last week that we should be delegating more ;-) Cheers, Dave. Alan Cox wrote: > On Llu, 2006-05-15 at 15:25 +0200, Dave Neary wrote: >> I can certainly post a copy in ODT later in the week which gets converted into >> .doc every time we need to go to the lawyers... I won't always have the time to >> do it promptly, though. >> >> I will note that there are several high-quality free software programmes that >> can read and write the bits of the .doc format which are important for lawyers. > > > - There are open standards, and GNOME is an open standards based body > - A ".doc" file may render in many different ways, especialy if it > contains macros. Which is definitive, the contract as rendered by MS > Word or by Abiword or by OpenOffice ? > > Alan > > > -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France --------------040605040600010104040604 Content-Type: application/vnd.oasis.opendocument.text; name="GNOME merchandising contract.odt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="GNOME merchandising contract.odt" UEsDBBQAAAAAAMCpyDRexjIMJwAAACcAAAAIAAAAbWltZXR5cGVhcHBsaWNhdGlvbi92bmQu b2FzaXMub3BlbmRvY3VtZW50LnRleHRQSwMEFAAAAAAAwKnINAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABoAAABD b25maWd1cmF0aW9uczIvc3RhdHVzYmFyL1BLAwQUAAgACADAqcg0AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAJwAA AENvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb25zMi9hY2NlbGVyYXRvci9jdXJyZW50LnhtbAMAUEsHCAAAAAACAAAA AAAAAFBLAwQUAAAAAADAqcg0AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGAAAAENvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb25zMi9mbG9h dGVyL1BLAwQUAAAAAADAqcg0AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGgAAAENvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb25zMi9wb3B1 cG1lbnUvUEsDBBQAAAAAAMCpyDQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAcAAAAQ29uZmlndXJhdGlvbnMyL3By b2dyZXNzYmFyL1BLAwQUAAAAAADAqcg0AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGAAAAENvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb25z 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[127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD6B93B031B for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 18:56:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10924-10 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 18:56:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 297323B0450 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 18:56:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 18926 invoked from network); 8 Jun 2006 22:56:39 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?164.99.120.169?) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 8 Jun 2006 22:56:39 -0000 From: Federico Mena Quintero To: foundation-list@gnome.org, GNOME Foundation Board Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 17:52:27 -0500 Message-Id: <1149807147.30645.105.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.645 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.905, BAYES_20=-0.74] X-Spam-Score: -1.645 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Required: Administrator for the Foundation X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 22:56:44 -0000 Hi, The GNOME Foundation is in need of a part-time administrator based in the USA. Our administrator will: 1. Collect, sort and summarise mail for the Board. 2. Handle bills in a timely manner. 3. Prepare checks for the Board to sign. 4. Track donations and fees. 5. Maintain a list of Board contacts. 6. Send out Friends of GNOME gifts to donors. 7. Keep the boards files in order, and sending expenses (when appropriate) to the accountant. 8. Handle the purchase and preparation of materials for tradeshows. 9. Attend board meetings bi-weekly as appropriate, and prepare status updates. 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. 11. There is no number 11. Proximity to Boston, MA is very desirable, though not mandatory. Please send your CV/resume in plain text to board-list@gnome.org. Federico From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Thu Jun 8 19:27:43 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E05373B019F for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 19:27:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12544-06 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 19:27:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7D04E3B03EC for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 19:27:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 11101 invoked by uid 0); 8 Jun 2006 23:27:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.34]) (83.55.174.28) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:27:37 +0000 From: Quim Gil To: Federico Mena Quintero In-Reply-To: <1149807147.30645.105.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> References: <1149807147.30645.105.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-g90YM+JWhOUtDEnlibmx" Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 01:27:36 +0200 Message-Id: <1149809257.5200.57.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=1.200, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:27:43 -0000 --=-g90YM+JWhOUtDEnlibmx Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Help the board (and the whole GNOME Foundation) spreading this profile or this link: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/2006-June/msg00077.html It is crystal clear that the board members will be much alleviated the day we have an efficient administrator in control of all the numbers and legal stuff.=20 El dj 08 de 06 del 2006 a les 17:52 -0500, en/na Federico Mena Quintero va escriure: > Hi, >=20 > The GNOME Foundation is in need of a part-time administrator based in > the USA. Our administrator will: >=20 > 1. Collect, sort and summarise mail for the Board. > 2. Handle bills in a timely manner. > 3. Prepare checks for the Board to sign. > 4. Track donations and fees. > 5. Maintain a list of Board contacts. > 6. Send out Friends of GNOME gifts to donors. > 7. Keep the boards files in order, and sending expenses (when=20 > appropriate) to the accountant. > 8. Handle the purchase and preparation of materials for tradeshows. > 9. Attend board meetings bi-weekly as appropriate, and prepare=20 > status updates. > 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. > 11. There is no number 11. >=20 > Proximity to Boston, MA is very desirable, though not mandatory. >=20 > Please send your CV/resume in plain text to board-list@gnome.org. >=20 > Federico >=20 > _______________________________________________ > foundation-list mailing list > foundation-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list >=20 --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-g90YM+JWhOUtDEnlibmx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEiLJoBEzHYk6x634RArJ6AJsGvNjgobbIa1GuEtIGYilkVS3pngCgrcR4 DwICtONuTn7adRgOQx5v+mo= =dz/Q -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-g90YM+JWhOUtDEnlibmx-- From anne@oestergaard.nu Fri Jun 9 06:20:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC9133B0099 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 06:20:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14331-03 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 06:20:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero0.cybercity.dk (cicero0.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.52]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22ECE3B0093 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 06:20:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero0.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC255678493 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 12:20:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 6AA8774F9A5 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 12:20:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 24532 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 10:20:46 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 10:20:46 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Federico Mena Quintero In-Reply-To: <1149807147.30645.105.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> References: <1149807147.30645.105.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 12:20:45 +0200 Message-Id: <1149848445.4453.36.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.538 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.061, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.538 X-Spam-Level: Cc: GNOME Foundation Board , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 10:20:54 -0000 tor, 08 06 2006 kl. 17:52 -0500, skrev Federico Mena Quintero: > Hi, > > The GNOME Foundation is in need of a part-time administrator based in > the USA. Our administrator will: > > 1. Collect, sort and summarise mail for the Board. > 2. Handle bills in a timely manner. > 3. Prepare checks for the Board to sign. > 4. Track donations and fees. > 5. Maintain a list of Board contacts. > 6. Send out Friends of GNOME gifts to donors. > 7. Keep the boards files in order, and sending expenses (when > appropriate) to the accountant. > 8. Handle the purchase and preparation of materials for tradeshows. > 9. Attend board meetings bi-weekly as appropriate, and prepare > status updates. > 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. > 11. There is no number 11. > > Proximity to Boston, MA is very desirable, though not mandatory. > > Please send your CV/resume in plain text to board-list@gnome.org. Don't forget to send a coverletter that explains why you qualify for this position. Anne From anne@oestergaard.nu Fri Jun 9 09:33:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70A3E3B029F for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 09:33:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27640-06 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 09:33:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F2963B0003 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 09:33:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user3.cybercity.dk (user3.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.36]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id F411F245C35 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 15:33:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user3.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id CAC1C93E3E for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 15:33:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 26273 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 13:33:41 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 13:33:41 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 15:33:39 +0200 Message-Id: <1149860019.4453.144.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.539 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.060, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.539 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 13:33:45 -0000 man, 05 06 2006 kl. 15:42 +0200, skrev Anne Østergaard: > Hello all GNOME Foundation Members, > > About the size of the present board. > > The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the > board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño. > > Background: > Not so long ago we had a Reducing Board Size Referendum > > "Should the board size be reduced from its current 11 directors to 7 > directors?" > > The Referendum Results: > > 188 members voted for this referendum. The repartition of the votes is: > > yes (117 votes) > no (70 votes) > blank votes: 1 > > > The board is at the moment of the opinion that a GNOME Board of 7 > persons should normally work and be enough, provided that we have a > staff person who can take part of the work load. > > Also at present a couple of the 7 board members have been given > additional responsibilities at their ordinary work places and/or > enlarged their family so they are pressed for time for "heavy" board > work. > > Since the board has not yet hired anybody (we are in the process of > doing so), the board would suggest to you that for the remaining of this > year, we ask Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño to join the board. > > They are both happy and willing to join the board, but under the > condition that there is not severe objections from the GNOME Foundation > Members. > > I think that I need not tell you, that the two candidates in question > are highly respected for their long time great contributions to the > GNOME project and the GNOME community spirit. > > Being responsible for having proposed this temporary compromise > solution, I naturally hope for your blessings. > > Please react within 10 days if you have problems with enlarging the > board by inviting Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño to join the > GNOME Board of Directors for the rest of 2006. > I think I made a mistake by only asking those having a problem with a temporary enlargement of the board till the end of the year. As we have not heard from the members would think this was quite acceptable, the result of the consultation would tend to be negative. This is logic. Should the board conclude that the community is against- or do we have lots of members who says yes or stay neutral? Please let's have your reaction before June 11th. Best wishes Anne PS The board is putting great efforts into delegating tasks as we know that there are many members eager to give a hand. In fact we almost always get a yes when we ask. From federico@ximian.com Fri Jun 9 10:42:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3F2C3B10A5 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 10:42:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31714-09 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 10:42:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E2953B0290 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 10:42:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 19596 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 14:42:29 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO 164-99-120-73.boston.ximian.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 14:42:29 -0000 From: Federico Mena Quintero To: foundation-list@gnome.org, foundation-announce@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 09:38:17 -0500 Message-Id: <1149863897.3733.5.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Questions for deployments of GNOME X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 14:42:33 -0000 Are you a deployment of GNOME? Are you like the City of Largo, Florida, or like the districts of Extremadura and Andalucía in Spain, who have big installations of machines running GNOME? At the GNOME Foundation we are conducting a little, informal study of how we can make your lives easier. If you are in charge of the technical part of a GNOME deployment, we would greatly appreciate it if you could answer the questions here: http://primates.ximian.com/~federico/news-2006-06.html#questions-for-deployments Please mail your replies to federico@gnu.org. A summary of the replies will be published during GUADEC this year. Thank you! Federico From domlachowicz@gmail.com Fri Jun 9 11:31:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BFA23B0222 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:31:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02652-02 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:31:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.207]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 965CA3B0290 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:31:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so654060wxd for ; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 08:31:53 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ZlrLXpqL60K1jk8gw3EPmgUEmZUs7iRuScIMEJ15le+bAITYJXZ6VK5qOBdKr99XGsf9iHLtP1cLzAAAAcHKc0zZ+AP0nnOQt8DqXZ/7MjFh/QeEqr33wBOS/t9ZUxPURaKYN9lUQHsv4APUxHzLnEa0GI+xJCtCeppE+Dy7OUg= Received: by 10.70.73.15 with SMTP id v15mr3606926wxa; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 08:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.116.12 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 08:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2672cf4d0606090831h34982de3u16db61e5308242ec@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:31:53 -0400 From: "Dominic Lachowicz" To: "=?UTF-8?Q?Anne_=C3=98stergaard?=" In-Reply-To: <1149860019.4453.144.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149860019.4453.144.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.351 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_BASE64_NO_NAME=0.224, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.351 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 15:31:56 -0000 SGkgQW5uZSwKCj4gPiBJIHRoaW5rIHRoYXQgSSBuZWVkIG5vdCB0ZWxsIHlvdSwgdGhhdCB0aGUg dHdvIGNhbmRpZGF0ZXMgaW4gcXVlc3Rpb24KPiA+IGFyZSBoaWdobHkgcmVzcGVjdGVkIGZvciB0 aGVpciBsb25nIHRpbWUgZ3JlYXQgY29udHJpYnV0aW9ucyB0byB0aGUKPiA+IEdOT01FIHByb2pl Y3QgYW5kIHRoZSBHTk9NRSBjb21tdW5pdHkgc3Bpcml0Lgo+ID4KPiA+IEJlaW5nIHJlc3BvbnNp YmxlIGZvciBoYXZpbmcgcHJvcG9zZWQgdGhpcyB0ZW1wb3JhcnkgY29tcHJvbWlzZQo+ID4gc29s dXRpb24sIEkgbmF0dXJhbGx5IGhvcGUgZm9yIHlvdXIgYmxlc3NpbmdzLgo+ID4KPiA+IFBsZWFz ZSByZWFjdCB3aXRoaW4gMTAgZGF5cyBpZiB5b3UgaGF2ZSBwcm9ibGVtcyB3aXRoIGVubGFyZ2lu ZyB0aGUKPiA+IGJvYXJkIGJ5IGludml0aW5nIEJlaGRhZCBFc2ZhaGJvZCBhbmQgR2VybcOhbiBQ b8OzLUNhYW1hw7FvIHRvIGpvaW4gdGhlCj4gPiBHTk9NRSBCb2FyZCBvZiBEaXJlY3RvcnMgZm9y IHRoZSByZXN0IG9mIDIwMDYuCgpbc25pcF0KCj4gUFMgVGhlIGJvYXJkIGlzIHB1dHRpbmcgZ3Jl YXQgZWZmb3J0cyBpbnRvIGRlbGVnYXRpbmcgdGFza3MgYXMgd2Uga25vdwo+IHRoYXQgdGhlcmUg YXJlIG1hbnkgbWVtYmVycyBlYWdlciB0byBnaXZlIGEgaGFuZC4gSW4gZmFjdCB3ZSBhbG1vc3QK PiBhbHdheXMgZ2V0IGEgeWVzIHdoZW4gd2UgYXNrLgoKSSBhcHByZWNpYXRlIHRoZSBib2FyZCdz IGVmZm9ydHMsIGhhcmQgd29yaywgYW5kIGRlZGljYXRpb24uIEkgYXBwbGF1ZAp0aGUgYm9hcmQn cyByZWNlbnQgcmVzb2x2ZSB0byBkZWxlZ2F0ZSBtb3JlIHRoaW5ncywgaW5jbHVkaW5nCmRlbGVn YXRpbmcgdGhlIFRNIGRvY3VtZW50IHRvIG1lLiBJIGhvcGUgbm90IHRvIGRpc2FwcG9pbnQgeW91 LgoKSG93ZXZlciwgSSBzdGlsbCBoYXZlbid0IGhlYXJkIGEgZ29vZCBleHBsYW5hdGlvbiBhcyB0 byAqd2h5KiB0aGUKYm9hcmQgbmVlZHMgbW9yZSBtZW1iZXJzIHRvIGZ1bGZpbGwgaXRzIGR1dGll cy4gT3Igd2h5IDIgaXMgdGhlIG1hZ2ljCm51bWJlci4gT3Igd2h5IHRoZSBuZXcgcG9zaXRpb25z IHdvdWxkIG9ubHkgYmUgdGVtcG9yYXJ5LiBXaGF0CnByb2JsZW1zIGlzIHRoZSBib2FyZCBmYWNp bmcgdGhhdCBjYW5ub3QgYmUgaGFuZGxlZCBieSB0aGUgY3VycmVudAptZW1iZXJzIHBsdXMgZGVs ZWdhdGlvbiBhcyBhcHByb3ByaWF0ZT8gT3IgaWYgY2VydGFpbiBtZW1iZXJzIGNhbid0Cm1lZXQg dGhlaXIgb2JsaWdhdGlvbnMgZHVlIHRvIG91dHNpZGUgb3IgZnV0dXJlIGNvbW1pdHRtZW50cyAo YXMgd2FzCkx1aXMnIGNhc2UgcmVjZW50bHkpIC0gb3Zlci1xdWFsaWZpZWQgYW5kIHBhc3Npb25h dGUgYXMgdGhleSBhcmUgLSAgaXMKdGhlIGNvcnJlY3Qgc29sdXRpb24gdG8gcmVzaWduIGFuZCBs ZXQgb3RoZXIgcGVvcGxlIHJlcGxhY2UgdGhlbT8KCkluIG15IG9waW5pb24sIHlvdSd2ZSBhc2tl ZCB1cyB0byB2b2ljZSBhbiBvcGluaW9uIHdpdGhvdXQgcHJlc2VudGluZwppbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBu ZWNlc3NhcnkgdG8gZm9ybWluZyBhIHF1YWxpZmllZCBvcGluaW9uLiBUaGlzIGlzIG1hZGUKZXZl biBtb3JlIGRpZmZpY3VsdCAoSU1PLCBvZiBjb3Vyc2UpIHNpbmNlIG5vIGJvYXJkIG1lZXRpbmcg bWludXRlcwpoYXZlIGJlZW4gcmVsZWFzZWQgc2luY2UgTWFyY2ggMjIsIHdoaWNoIGlzIGZhc3Qg YXBwcm9hY2hpbmcgMyBtb250aHMKYWdvLgoKSSBkb24ndCBrbm93IGFsbCBvZiB0aGUgcHJvYmxl bXMgZmFjaW5nIHRoZSBib2FyZC4gSSdtIG5vdCBzdXJlIHRoYXQKSSdtIGVudGl0bGVkIHRvIGtu b3cgdGhlbS4gQnV0IGZyb20gd2hhdCBsaXR0bGUgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24gSSBoYXZlLCBJCmNhbid0 IGhlbHAgYnV0IGZlZWwgdGhhdCB0aGUgYm9hcmQgaGFzIGdvdHRlbiBtb3JlIG9wYXF1ZSBhbmQK b3ZlcndvcmtlZCBzaW5jZSBpdHMgcmVjZW50IHJlZHVjdGlvbiB0byA3IG1lbWJlcnMuIChGb3Ig dGhlIHJlY29yZCwgSQpzdGlsbCBkaXNsaWtlIHRoYXQgbm8gZ29vZCBhcmd1bWVudCB3YXMgbWFk ZSB0aGVuIGFzIHRvIHdoYXQgcHJvYmxlbXMKdGhlIHByZXZpb3VzIGJvYXJkIHdhcyBmYWNpbmcs IGFuZCB3aHkgZ2V0dGluZyByaWQgb2YgNCBwZW9wbGUgd291bGQKaGF2ZSBzb2x2ZWQgdGhvc2Ug cHJvYmxlbXMuIElNSE8sIGhpc3Rvcnkgbm93IHJlcGVhdHMgaXRzZWxmLikKCklmIGFkZGluZyAy IG1vcmUgbWVtYmVycyB3aWxsIGhlbHAgc29sdmUgdGhlIGJvYXJkJ3MgcHJvYmxlbXMgaW4gd2F5 cwp0aGF0IGRlbGVnYXRpb24gb3IgYXR0cml0aW9uIGFsb25lIGNhbid0LCB0aGVuIGdyZWF0LiBM ZXQncyBkbyBpdC4gQnV0CnBsZWFzZSwgbWFrZSBhbiBhcmd1bWVudCBpbiB0aGUgbmV4dCAzIGRh eXMgYXMgdG8gd2h5IGFkZGluZyB0aGVzZQpwZW9wbGUgd2lsbCBoZWxwIHNvbHZlIHRoZSBwcm9i bGVtLgoKQmVzdCwKRG9tCi0tIApDb3VudGluZyBib2RpZXMgbGlrZSBzaGVlcCB0byB0aGUgcmh5 dGhtIG9mIHRoZSB3YXIgZHJ1bXMuCg== From dneary@free.fr Fri Jun 9 16:48:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29F733B01F6 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:48:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19379-08 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:48:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1-g19.free.fr (smtp1-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.27]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 128893B11A4 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:48:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp1-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BCEA9ABB8 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 22:48:13 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4489DB7A.6090102@free.fr> Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 22:35:06 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060521) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Foundation-List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Draft agenda for foundation AGM during GUADEC X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 20:48:45 -0000 Hi, We will be holding a GNOME Foundation general meeting during GUADEC on Tuesday June 27th, at 14h. The agenda will be pretty basic - we will present what the board has been working on and will work on for the rest of the year, get a report on our finances from the treasurer, and have a Q&A session for the rest of the time available. The meeting is for foundation members - so please, if there are things you feel we should concentrate on, reply here with suggestions for additions, or for subjects which you consider important. The AGM is our way to communicate directly to the membership what everyone's been doing for the foundation and for the community. We won't be limiting ourselves to board activities - sinceone of the core tasks of the board is to be aware of what's going on around the foundation, and co-ordinate people when there is common interest. Cheers, Dave. Agenda ====== 1. Chairman's report Presentation of the board, and overview of the foundation's activities since last GUADEC. I will be handing off the conch to other board members for particular topics. 2. Treasurer's report The state of the finances - how much money we have, what we've spent money on, and what we plan to do with the rest. 3. Ongoing projects and their status 4. Questions & Answers -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From danw@novell.com Fri Jun 9 17:04:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 132FA3B01AB for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:04:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20767-04 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:04:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B2E43B00FE for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:04:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 20109 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 21:04:39 -0000 Received: from outbound.ximian.com (HELO ?164.99.121.40?) (danw@130.57.170.250) by peabody.ximian.com with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 21:04:39 -0000 Message-ID: <4489E254.1070900@novell.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 17:04:20 -0400 From: Dan Winship User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20060317) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606054045.GM5138@waugh.id.au> In-Reply-To: <20060606054045.GM5138@waugh.id.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.734 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.824, BAYES_05=-1.11, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2] X-Spam-Score: -1.734 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 21:04:45 -0000 Jeff Waugh wrote: > * We are attempting to do big things without the benefit of having a face > to face meeting. Every board so far has been more effective post-GUADEC, > after they've had the opportunity to sit down, grind through the issues > with a lot of social bandwidth and look each other up and down a bit. It > really helps develop shared vision, shared values and shared trust in a > way that mail, phone and IRC can't. Should we shift the election cycle by a few months then, so that GUADEC falls near the start of the new board's term, rather than halfway through? -- Dan From rml@novell.com Fri Jun 9 17:23:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7FCA3B02C9 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:23:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21648-01 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:23:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 900583B0256 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:23:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 20159 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 21:23:16 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO betsy.boston.ximian.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 21:23:16 -0000 From: Robert Love To: Dan Winship In-Reply-To: <4489E254.1070900@novell.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606054045.GM5138@waugh.id.au> <4489E254.1070900@novell.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 17:23:32 -0400 Message-Id: <1149888212.31757.191.camel@betsy.boston.ximian.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.482 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.083, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2] X-Spam-Score: -2.482 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 21:23:18 -0000 On Fri, 2006-06-09 at 17:04 -0400, Dan Winship wrote: > Should we shift the election cycle by a few months then, so that GUADEC > falls near the start of the new board's term, rather than halfway through? I am pretty sure that cheetah's don't have teeth, but I could be way off on that one. Robert Love From rml@novell.com Fri Jun 9 17:26:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9FF33B02D1 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:26:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21629-06 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:26:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C92C23B02C9 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:26:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 20164 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 21:26:14 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO betsy.boston.ximian.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 21:26:14 -0000 From: Robert Love To: Dan Winship In-Reply-To: <1149888212.31757.191.camel@betsy.boston.ximian.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606054045.GM5138@waugh.id.au> <4489E254.1070900@novell.com> <1149888212.31757.191.camel@betsy.boston.ximian.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 17:26:29 -0400 Message-Id: <1149888389.31757.193.camel@betsy.boston.ximian.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.482 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.083, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2] X-Spam-Score: -2.482 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 21:26:19 -0000 On Fri, 2006-06-09 at 17:23 -0400, Robert Love wrote: > On Fri, 2006-06-09 at 17:04 -0400, Dan Winship wrote: > > > Should we shift the election cycle by a few months then, so that GUADEC > > falls near the start of the new board's term, rather than halfway through? > > I am pretty sure that cheetah's don't have teeth, but I could be way off > on that one. There is a definite bug in Evolution. Robert Love From anne@oestergaard.nu Fri Jun 9 18:41:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3E513B0353 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 18:41:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25560-09 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 18:41:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 379E33B0101 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 18:41:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user4.cybercity.dk (user4.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.50]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2FD2245263 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 00:41:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user4.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 464415045D for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 00:41:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 1264 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 22:41:17 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 22:41:17 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: David Neary In-Reply-To: <4489DB7A.6090102@free.fr> References: <4489DB7A.6090102@free.fr> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 00:41:16 +0200 Message-Id: <1149892876.4453.220.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.539 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.060, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.539 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Foundation-List Subject: Re: Draft agenda for foundation AGM during GUADEC X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 22:41:33 -0000 fre, 09 06 2006 kl. 22:35 +0200, skrev David Neary: > Hi, > > We will be holding a GNOME Foundation general meeting during GUADEC on > Tuesday June 27th, at 14h. > > The agenda will be pretty basic - we will present what the board has > been working on and will work on for the rest of the year, get a report > on our finances from the treasurer, and have a Q&A session for the rest > of the time available. > > The meeting is for foundation members - so please, if there are things > you feel we should concentrate on, reply here with suggestions for > additions, or for subjects which you consider important. > > The AGM is our way to communicate directly to the membership what > everyone's been doing for the foundation and for the community. We won't > be limiting ourselves to board activities - sinceone of the core tasks since one > of the board is to be aware of what's going on around the foundation, > and co-ordinate people when there is common interest. > > Cheers, > Dave. > > Agenda > ====== > > 1. Chairman's report > > Presentation of the board, and overview of the foundation's activities > since last GUADEC. I will be handing off the conch to other board > members for particular topics. > > 2. Treasurer's report > > The state of the finances - how much money we have, what we've spent > money on, and what we plan to do with the rest. > > 3. Ongoing projects and their status > > 4. Questions & Answers Looks fine to me. Thanks Dave. Anne From jdub@waugh.id.au Sat Jun 10 03:27:16 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D9D63B021F for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 03:27:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15839-04 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 03:27:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A4FE3B01B7 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 03:27:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (ppp121-112.static.internode.on.net [150.101.121.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27C473C362 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:27:12 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6E7653F55; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:27:03 +1000 (EST) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:27:03 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060610072703.GG5138@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606054045.GM5138@waugh.id.au> <4489E254.1070900@novell.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <4489E254.1070900@novell.com> Reply-By: Tue Jun 13 16:55:45 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 16:55:45 up 8 days, 16:47, 10 users, load average: 0.06, 0.09, 0.03 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.448 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.448 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 07:27:16 -0000 > Jeff Waugh wrote: > > * We are attempting to do big things without the benefit of having a > > face to face meeting. Every board so far has been more effective > > post-GUADEC, after they've had the opportunity to sit down, grind > > through the issues with a lot of social bandwidth and look each other > > up and down a bit. It really helps develop shared vision, shared values > > and shared trust in a way that mail, phone and IRC can't. > > Should we shift the election cycle by a few months then, so that GUADEC > falls near the start of the new board's term, rather than halfway through? I'd like to, and proposed it during my previous term, but it wasn't pursued (probably a combination of my year off, other important structural changes going on, and indecision about how to kick it off - delay the elections by five months or shift them ahead by four?). Aiming for elections in May would probably be best - I'll add this to the board agenda, thanks! - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ "Trying to get a PC to analyse one of the most abstract forms of language - the poem - is like trying to drill for oil with a banana." - The Register From aguelzow@pyrshep.ca Mon Jun 5 14:59:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EAD83B0A25 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:59:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23291-09 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:59:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.mail.interbaun.com (smtp01.mail.interbaun.com [199.185.130.39]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEF373B09D1 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:59:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 14439 invoked by uid 502); 5 Jun 2006 18:59:31 -0000 Received: from 226.207-229-35-0.interbaun.com (207.229.35.226) by smtp01.mail.interbaun.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 18:59:31 -0000 From: "Andreas J. Guelzow" To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 12:58:39 -0600 Message-Id: <1149533919.6058.5.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 16:16:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 18:59:45 -0000 On Mon, 2006-05-06 at 13:21 -0400, Dominic Lachowicz wrote: > > Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > > > > Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > > everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. > > It doesn't seem to be entirely arbitrary. The 3 "appointees" were the > next 3 highest vote-getters in the 2005 elections. In other words, they lost the election. > > http://foundation.gnome.org/vote/results.php?election_id=2 > > > candidacy statement for the next election. But, they can't be members of > > the board without an election. > > The Foundation's charter apparently says (in at least two places) that > they can appoint members without an election: > > http://foundation.gnome.org/about/charter/ > > "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows, > subject to approval by the board or referendum of the membership." > > "Between elections, board vacancies or new board slots shall be filled > by appointment by the board of directors." This is different from temporarily appointing 2 additional members. Of course the board can add new seats, but they will then be permanent until (again?) removed via a referendum. Andreas From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Sat Jun 10 19:23:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F2583B0250 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:23:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31888-05 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:23:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5649B3B00BE for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:23:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 25487 invoked by uid 0); 10 Jun 2006 23:03:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.33]) (83.55.171.219) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:03:01 +0000 From: Quim Gil To: Dominic Lachowicz In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606090831h34982de3u16db61e5308242ec@mail.gmail.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149860019.4453.144.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606090831h34982de3u16db61e5308242ec@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-KTaz04E3pQ5RiXxb3JWq" Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 01:03:01 +0200 Message-Id: <1149980581.5208.64.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.421 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=1.178, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -1.421 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:23:34 -0000 --=-KTaz04E3pQ5RiXxb3JWq Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Dom, El dv 09 de 06 del 2006 a les 11:31 -0400, en/na Dominic Lachowicz va escriure: > What > problems is the board facing that cannot be handled by the current > members plus delegation as appropriate? This is a good question (the other ones as well, but at least I can say something about this one). In the board meeting of last Wednesday we discussed possible and easy to implement ways to improve the communication and collaboration between the board and people willing to have a higher implication and participation in foundation/board tasks.=20 Good communication eases collaboration, and good collaboration eases trust. Trust is the root of many problems of delegation: sharing or delegating a private task to someone you trust and collaborate takes 5 minutes (ok, maybe more). The same action without regular communication-collaboration-trust takes more time, and risk. Jeff is preparing a proposal. I just wanted to provide some informal and personal feedback so you don't think that the board is keeping the temporary enlargement as the only or primary option to consider. > IMHO, history now repeats itself.) Another interesting point, that brings an issue... In our current setting it is very unlikely that the current board is going to criticize openly something specific about the last board. I believe the way the board is mounted and unmounted every year makes difficult to make (self)criticism openly. It's not like one party losing an election and a new party coming in (system that has its defects but at least assures criticism and review of the past actions). This is not something unique to the GNOME Foundation, this is a problem intrinsic in any organization voting for individuals that suddenly need to work as a compact team, and then be renewed quite often (like once a year). The problem is clearer when some individuals repeat, and some come in for the first time. Maybe a solution would be that the team leaving the board makes not only a meeting with the new board members, but also a last internal meeting to write up a public report of which things went well and why, and which things went bad and why. And/or a summary of the same questions answered individually by each board member. Hackers know that documenting is the best way to avoid known mistakes. --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-KTaz04E3pQ5RiXxb3JWq Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEi0+kBEzHYk6x634RAqbeAJ9KM9xYm0T4wGYCpXUQewmeO2aZMgCeL2F/ 880R+hSnd79e/n/kwcLeFpg= =HToh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-KTaz04E3pQ5RiXxb3JWq-- From dneary@free.fr Mon Jun 12 03:55:04 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BAE23B00D4 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 03:55:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24556-10 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 03:54:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp12.wanadoo.fr (smtp12.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.20]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32A523B0186 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 03:54:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf1201.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 2B0571C00089; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 09:54:39 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060612075439176.2B0571C00089@mwinf1201.orange.fr Message-ID: <448D1DCC.7090102@free.fr> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 09:54:52 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Neary References: <4489DB7A.6090102@free.fr> In-Reply-To: <4489DB7A.6090102@free.fr> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Foundation-List Subject: Re: Draft agenda for foundation AGM during GUADEC X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 07:55:04 -0000 Hi, David Neary wrote: > The agenda will be pretty basic - we will present what the board has > been working on and will work on for the rest of the year, get a report > on our finances from the treasurer, and have a Q&A session for the rest > of the time available. Following on from feedback, a partial list of the various initiatives and projects we'll be including is below: > Agenda > ====== > > 1. Chairman's report > > Presentation of the board, and overview of the foundation's activities > since last GUADEC. I will be handing off the conch to other board > members for particular topics. * Documentation contract * Public service * Foundation administrator role * Google SoC * Foundation organised/funded Conferences * Conference presence - EclipseCon, LinuxWorld, FOSDEM, linux.conf.au, ... * Event boxes * Communication & promotion > 2. Treasurer's report > > The state of the finances - how much money we have, what we've spent > money on, and what we plan to do with the rest. > > 3. Ongoing projects and their status * Web site redesign * Trademark agreements * Executive director * Merchandising (dormant) > 4. Questions & Answers Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From federico@ximian.com Mon Jun 12 11:55:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEDC73B009D for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:55:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09055-01 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:55:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB46E3B0078 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:55:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 21660 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2006 15:52:35 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?192.168.1.101?) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 12 Jun 2006 15:52:35 -0000 From: Federico Mena Quintero To: foundation-list@gnome.org, foundation-announce-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 10:48:18 -0500 Message-Id: <1150127298.17566.47.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Minutes of the Board meeting, 2006/Apr/05 X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:55:13 -0000 Dusting out the drawer of old minutes... GNOME Foundation Board Meeting, 2006/04/05 ========================================== Attendance: Dave (Chairing, minutes) Vincent Luis Jonathan Rosanna Jeff (0:10) Regrets: Anne Missing: Federico Actions: Luis to mail boston-social@gnome.org to look for volunteers to represent us at Boston Usenix and Boston LWE - DONE! Dave to be our liaison with marketing-list to set up the basic structure of the new www.gnome.org - ongoing Dave to request a contract from Quim for GUADEC - ongoing. We expect something by Easter. Federico to mail advisory-board-list about what members would like to obtain from the Foundation. - We'll pick it up at the meeting. Jeff to write a proposal for the technical project meeting. - ongoing. Jeff describes Ghosts of past Conferences. Something we should do for GUADEC. Luis to send mail RE LWE/Usenix: done GUADEC meetings - Deciding dates & times for advisory board and board meetings Board meeting before and Advisory after is a good idea. -Dave: We should split up the all-day board meeting so we don't wear out. -Advisory board is on Thursday, June 29th Advisory board - Preparing the meeting - Need an agenda - luis: Should we keep it to a single agenda? - bolsh: Want to turn it into something where they go to them frequently - jeff: turn it into a long term agenda Action: Get Advisory board rep for RH -Done: Gerry Riveros is representing Advisory Board fees - -We're going to go to a January billing period. Prorate people. No one has been billed yet. Axis Informática wanting to sell products with the GNOME logo (see Rodrigo's mail) -Reuse the german contract for this group (initially) -Turn it into a generic TM agreemark that people can use -Action: Contact lawyers to make sure our generic contract can work. Federico From federico@ximian.com Mon Jun 12 11:56:06 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0BB33B009D for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:56:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08921-07 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:56:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69BDF3B0010 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:56:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 21665 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2006 15:54:57 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?192.168.1.101?) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 12 Jun 2006 15:54:57 -0000 From: Federico Mena Quintero To: foundation-list@gnome.org, foundation-announce-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 10:50:41 -0500 Message-Id: <1150127441.17566.48.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Minutes of the Board meeting, 2006/Apr/26 X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:56:06 -0000 GNOME Foundation Board Meeting, 2006/04/26 ========================================== Attendance: =========== Dave Neary (Chairing, minutes) Luis Villa Anne Oestergaard Vincent Untz Jeff Waugh Missing: ======== Jonathan Blandford (arrived :50) Federico Mena Quintero Actions ======= * Dave to request a contract from Quim for GUADEC - ongoing * Jeff to write a proposal for the technical project meeting - outside scope of the board * Dave to resurrect German contract from last year so that we can use it for Axis Informática - ongoing (sent to foundation-list for round of feedback) New actions =========== ACTION: Announce US event box & contents (Vincent) ACTION: Announce final shortlist of GUADEC 07 candidates (Anne) ACTION: Dave to get feedback off Dom on the old contract, and mail the result on to foundation list ACTION: Anne to contact Tim for the name of the lawyer who worked on the agreement last year Agenda: ======= 1. Administrator * Process for hiring full-time executive director * Refine job description, and talk about the profile we're looking for We would like to hire an executive director to develop business strategy and manage our relationships with commercial and non-profit partners. We're going to take the time to hire the right person. We also need to make sure basic administration and accounting are taken care of in a timely fashion. We can continue to hire a part time administrator or out-source office services. It was agreed that outsourcing in the Boston area, where our lawyers and accountants are located, makes sense. 2. Summer of Code * Let's make sure GNOME does better (from an organisational point of view) this time Vincent and Behdad took care of organising GNOME for this. 3. GUADEC 2007 - declare list of candidates Candidates to be proposed publically on foundation-list for a public comments period. 4. Decision for the US event box (Carried on mailing list: no discussion needed) -- Federico Mena Quintero From federico@ximian.com Mon Jun 12 12:01:35 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CA2A3B008A for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 12:01:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09149-02 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 12:01:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6C8B3B0100 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 12:00:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 21670 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2006 15:59:08 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?192.168.1.101?) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 12 Jun 2006 15:59:08 -0000 From: Federico Mena Quintero To: foundation-list@gnome.org, foundation-announce-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 10:54:52 -0500 Message-Id: <1150127692.17566.50.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Minutes of the Board meeting, 2006/May/17 X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 16:01:35 -0000 GNOME Foundation Board Meeting, 2006/05/17 ========================================== Attendance: Anne Federico (minutes) Jonathan Vincent No attendance: Dave (regrets) Luis (regrets) Jeff We started the meeting on IRC since there was trouble with the phone access code. JRB came in later, fixed our code, and we started the phone meeting around 45 minutes after the IRC one. PREVIOUS ACTIONS ================ * Dave to ask Dom to refine/reduce the German contract: DONE, RFC gone to foundation-list * Anne to announce final list of GUADEC 2007 candidates: DONE. * Vincent to announce North American event box: DONE. * Luis to find out which lawyer we worked with on the contract revisions last year: NOT DONE. * JRB to get quotes for back-office services, via Owen: NOT DONE. * Jeff to send Embedded agenda to board list: NOT DONE. NEW ACTIONS =========== * Luis to find out which lawyer we worked with on the contract revisions last year (carried over from previous actions). * JRB to get quotes for back-office services, via Owen (carried over from previous actions). * Jeff and Vincent to send Embedded agenda to board list (carried over from previous actions). * Federico to send a draft job announcement to board-list for the executive director and the administrator. * Federico to write an agenda for the next Advisory Board meeting, to take place on May 31st. [Taken up by Dave] * JRB to mail board-list about invoicing Intel (hard disk crash). * JRB to send an update on what hardware has been bought for the event box. * Quim to contact HP and Novell about sponsorship for GUADEC. * Federico to mail Quim/Behdad/Germán about replacing Luis. AGENDA ====== * Invoicing GUADEC sponsors & advisory board members - Pending paperwork. * Handling conference finances - need to ask Dave about mailing Quim. * Buying stuff for the event box - how, when, what, who - need volunteers. * Financial situation - no change. * Merchandising contract - it has gone to foundation-list. * GUADEC - no update. * Ad board - we're due another meeting, it's been a month. How about in a fortnight? (UPDATE: a fortnight from now) Yes, it will be on May 31st. Federico to send an agenda and announcement. * GUADEC 2007 - It would be nice to have a public request for comments period. (UPDATE: Anne has said she'll take care of this). It's in foundation-list now. * Administrator - type of person we want, process for getting the hire going, the usual. We need to start moving forward on that, seriously. We need a full-time person working for us. No quotes for outsourcing yet. From federico@ximian.com Mon Jun 12 13:57:30 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3C333B0943 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 13:57:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21275-07 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 13:57:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 949C23B0150 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 12:07:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 21703 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2006 16:06:26 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?192.168.1.101?) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 12 Jun 2006 16:06:26 -0000 From: Federico Mena Quintero To: foundation-list@gnome.org, foundation-announce@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:02:10 -0500 Message-Id: <1150128130.17566.52.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Minutes of the Board meeting, 2006/Jun/07 X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 17:57:30 -0000 GNOME Foundation Board Meeting, 2006/06/07 ========================================== Attendance: Anne Dave Federico Jeff Jonathan Quim (welcome, Quim!) No attendance: Vincent (regrets) PREVIOUS ACTIONS ================ PUBLIC: * Dave to request a contract from Quim for GUADEC: IN PROGRESS. Quim is taking care of this. * Dave to resurrect German contract from last year so that we can use it for Axis Informática. IN PROGRESS. Needs to go to the lawyer. * Jeff to write a proposal for the technical project meeting: IN PROGRESS * Federico to send a draft job announcement to board-list for the executive director and the administrator: NOT DONE * Federico to write an agenda for the next Advisory Board meeting, to take place on May 31st. DONE, the meeting happened. * JRB to send an update on what hardware has been bought for the event box: IN PROGRESS. * JRB to mail board-list about invoicing Intel (hard disk crash): Quim to take this action. * Quim to contact HP and Novell about sponsorship for GUADEC. DONE - both sponsoring * Federico to mail Quim/Behdad/Germán about replacing Luis. DONE NEW ACTIONS =========== * Federico to send minutes from the Advisory Board meeting to advisory-board-list. * JRB to post the contact info for the lawyer / accountant to board-list and the wiki. * Federico to make the announcement for the part-time administrator. * Jeff to write a proposal for the subcommittees. * Jeff to ensure that all the board members are in the marketing-private and board-only lists. * Dave to send draft agenda for the Advisory Board meeting, based on Federico's paper. * Anne to to take over contacts with GNOME's legal partners. AGENDA ====== * Welcome Quim to the Board: - Gave Quim a brief update on what the Board has been doing. - Quim told us that he has been reading the board-list minutes but not the archives. * Figuring out how to execute all the pending actions, and not be swamped in pending stuff all the time: - NEW ACTION: JRB to post the contact info for the lawyer / accountant to board-list and the wiki. - We are going to need a presence in the USA no matter what, for legal matters in the Foundation. * Administrator hire / outsourcing: - NEW ACTION: Federico to make the announcement for the part-time administrator. - We want to hire someone part-time immediately and will announce the vacancy and ask Zana to submit a candidature. * Increasing the board size: - Idea about letting people into board-list and into the phone calls, without them being board members. Then they can volunteer to do some of the tasks that the board can't do effectively (like someone in the USA to look for an administrator). - NEW ACTION: Jeff to write a proposal for the subcommittees. * Agendas for GUADEC: - Let's send provisional agendas in advance. - NEW ACTION: Dave to send draft agenda for the Advisory Board meeting, based on Federico's paper. From behdad.esfahbod@gmail.com Thu Jun 15 17:38:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10A073B0011 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2006 17:38:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02101-02 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2006 17:38:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.235]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CCB93B0305 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2006 17:38:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 37so427821wra for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2006 14:38:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.108.13 with SMTP id g13mr2187733wrc; Thu, 15 Jun 2006 14:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.190.5? ( [72.136.156.47]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 6sm1544376wrl.2006.06.15.14.38.10; Thu, 15 Jun 2006 14:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Women's Summer Outreach Program 2006 From: Behdad Esfahbod To: gnome-hackers@gnome.org, foundation-list@gnome.org, foundation-announce@gnome.org, gnome-announce-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 17:38:06 -0400 Message-Id: <1150407487.29623.12.camel@home> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 (2.6.1-1.fc5.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: Behdad Esfahbod X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 21:38:54 -0000 GNOME to Sponsor Female Developers in a Summer Outreach Program BOSTON, Mass - June 13, 2006 - The GNOME Foundation is offering USD$9000 to female students in order to promote the participation of women in GNOME-related development. The money originates from GNOME's participation in the Google "Summer of Code" program (code.google.com/soc/), for which GNOME developers will mentor 20 students working throughout the northern summer on GNOME-related projects. This year GNOME received 181 applications to Google's program, yet none were from women. The GNOME Foundation has therefore chosen to reinvest Google's contribution into a new program designed to increase the participation of women in GNOME. The program has no official relationship with Google. "Free software prides itself on being open to anyone with a good idea, yet less than 2% of free software developers are female. We, as a community, need to be actively working to change this statistic, and programs like this one are a much needed step in the right direction." said Hanna Wallach, a GNOME developer who is involved in several projects that encourage women to participate in free software development. The Women's Summer Outreach Program is currently accepting applications from female students. Accepted students will receive a stipend of USD $3000 over a two month period. A pool of project ideas is provided at www.gnome.org/projects/wsop/, though original proposals are also encouraged. Projects may either be related to GNOME directly, or indirectly via projects such as Gstreamer and Abiword. Each student will be assigned a mentor to provide guidance throughout the program. Vincent Untz, member of the GNOME Foundation board and coordinator of the GNOME team for Google's "Summer of Code" program, explained: "Many women have the skills required to contribute to Free Software projects like GNOME, but may not see an opportunity to start working with us. By initiating this program, not only do we want to highlight the issue, but we also hope that this opportunity will help more women to get involved in the long term." Applications should be submitted using the form at www.gnome.org/projects/wsop/. More information about the application process may be found at the same location. From mark@galassi.org Sun Jun 11 01:20:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CD043B0074; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 01:20:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11497-01; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 01:20:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agora.rdrop.com (agora.rdrop.com [199.26.172.34]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 277D23B00C1; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 01:20:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (67-42-116-199.albq.qwest.net [67.42.116.199]) (authenticated bits=0) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id k5B5IxaM059197 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 10 Jun 2006 22:19:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@galassi.org) To: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> From: Mark Galassi Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:18:04 -0600 In-Reply-To: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> (Federico Mena Quintero's message of "Fri, 09 Jun 2006 09:35:42 -0500") Message-ID: <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (agora.rdrop.com [199.26.172.34]); Sat, 10 Jun 2006 22:19:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.465 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.465 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 05:53:15 -0400 Cc: foundation-announce@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 05:20:27 -0000 Federico> 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. I hope that it will be a firm requirement that only free s/w be used to run the Foundation's administration. I know you are only talking about literacy, not what tools will be used, but I think this is a good moment to state that if we start hiring non-free-sw-hackers to do this kind of work, we should insist that they use free tools. I still remember my sadness when I worked for Cygnus and saw that the non-developers did not use free s/w across the board. From rms@gnu.org Sat Jun 17 15:56:39 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A04183B01A6; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:56:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05890-09; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:56:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7F0E3B0061; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:56:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1Frgt3-0006cU-Ba; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:55:17 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Mark Galassi In-reply-to: <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> (message from Mark Galassi on Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:18:04 -0600) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Message-Id: Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:55:17 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.549 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.051, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.549 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-announce@gnome.org, foundation-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:56:39 -0000 Federico> 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. Unless you're looking for kernel hackers, please make that "GNU/Linux literate". You probably want people who know how to edit with Emacs, write code to compile with GCC, debug with GDB, and call functions in GLIBC and GTK+. From alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk Sat Jun 17 18:05:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E96D3B095C; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:05:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11915-05; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:05:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (unknown [81.2.110.250]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8C153B0995; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:05:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k5HMK9aZ010673; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:20:09 +0100 Received: (from alan@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k5HMK8a3010672; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:20:08 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: alan set sender to alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk using -f Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Alan Cox To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:20:08 +0100 Message-Id: <1150582808.10649.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.2 (2.6.2-1.fc5.5) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.589 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.010, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.589 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-announce@gnome.org, foundation-list@gnome.org, Mark Galassi X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 22:05:03 -0000 Ar Sad, 2006-06-17 am 15:55 -0400, ysgrifennodd Richard Stallman: > Unless you're looking for kernel hackers, > please make that "GNU/Linux literate". Linux is a trademark in the USA. The use of GNU/Linux without indicating the trademark is inappropriately confusing the registered mark. And last time I checked GNOME was not a GNU project. Alan From jrb@redhat.com Sat Jun 17 18:12:06 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E29BF3B095C; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:12:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12356-02; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:12:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [66.187.233.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 567043B035D; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:12:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5HL9w54017447; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 17:09:58 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (devserv.devel.redhat.com [172.16.58.1]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5HL9wAk007091; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 17:09:58 -0400 Received: from vpn50-83.rdu.redhat.com (vpn50-83.rdu.redhat.com [172.16.50.83]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5HL9wrV027671; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 17:09:58 -0400 Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Jonathan Blandford To: Mark Galassi In-Reply-To: <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-Nx9mtySaFKPPRo++4u3H" Organization: Red Hat, Inc. Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 17:09:57 -0400 Message-Id: <1150578597.2841.94.camel@peach> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.2 (2.6.2-1.fc5.5) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.583 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.583 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-announce@gnome.org, foundation-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 22:12:06 -0000 --=-Nx9mtySaFKPPRo++4u3H Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, 2006-06-10 at 23:18 -0600, Mark Galassi wrote: > Federico> 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. >=20 > I hope that it will be a firm requirement that only free s/w be used > to run the Foundation's administration. >=20 > I know you are only talking about literacy, not what tools will be > used, but I think this is a good moment to state that if we start > hiring non-free-sw-hackers to do this kind of work, we should insist > that they use free tools. >=20 > I still remember my sadness when I worked for Cygnus and saw that the > non-developers did not use free s/w across the board. Right now, we use free tools to run almost all the foundation's books. We use gnucash, abiword, glabels[1] and gnucash for the bookkeeping. The GNOME tools are more than adequate to handle the Foundation's needs. We do have a vmware instance to run Internet Explorer just for online banking. No one on the board is happy with this situation, and we're planning on switching banks over this issue. Thanks, -Jonathan [1] which is a really nice and underpromoted program. Many kudos to the authors for doing such a slick job on this application. --=-Nx9mtySaFKPPRo++4u3H Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBElG+lEXFTqNjUZNwRAl8xAJ0anqoLKt5dgU454m1WNN3cMSw0DgCgnxu2 uNT01EAS78FHMGmDtvrSe4U= =96VV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-Nx9mtySaFKPPRo++4u3H-- From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Sat Jun 17 18:17:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EF873B035D for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:17:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12134-06 for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:17:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 740AD3B00EC for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:17:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 22052 invoked by uid 0); 17 Jun 2006 22:09:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.34]) (83.55.163.198) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 22:09:23 +0000 Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Quim Gil To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-BKWWivCcc2A9dMiCc/lk" Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 00:09:23 +0200 Message-Id: <1150582163.5117.119.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.489 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=1.110, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -1.489 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, Mark Galassi X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 22:17:36 -0000 --=-BKWWivCcc2A9dMiCc/lk Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El ds 17 de 06 del 2006 a les 15:55 -0400, en/na Richard Stallman va escriure: > Federico> 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. >=20 > Unless you're looking for kernel hackers, > please make that "GNU/Linux literate". In fact, in this case it would be most accurate to say "Preferably free software literate", since the skills we require from this administrator are focused on the usage of office/desktop applications. Maybe we should have simply asked for someone "preferably GNOME user". :) > You probably want people who know how to edit with Emacs, > write code to compile with GCC, debug with GDB, and call > functions in GLIBC and GTK+. Well, not at all. We are looking for an administrator (accounting, bookkeeping and so on) and not for a system administrator or a developer. Think more on the basic Internet tools, word processors, spreadsheets and accounting applications. About making this preference for free software literacy a requirement, I agree the desirable scenario would be to have an accountant hired by the GNOME Foundation and working with GNOME. But we need an accountant, urgently. Finding candidates is not easy, and the priority is to find the best accountant available. If this person doesn't know perfectly how to use the free tools available s/he can learn. Very different of hiring a great free software user/developer with just regular administrative skills. Help us finding a great administrator with the free software skills needed, and problem solved. :) PS: Richard, looking forward to seeing you next week in Barcelona. --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-BKWWivCcc2A9dMiCc/lk Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBElH2TBEzHYk6x634RAtXIAKCLt4AFrMI1nTSPHx6Jb/37wjIccgCgjaMF xsTDfjS15mNraeZqZMLEn18= =5H0p -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-BKWWivCcc2A9dMiCc/lk-- From csaavedr@wh8.tu-dresden.de Sat Jun 17 19:20:25 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEB543B00AA for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:20:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14208-01 for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:20:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de (B202a.WH8.tu-dresden.de [141.30.225.153]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 945613B0072 for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:20:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from claudio by b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1Fri1j-00079r-O8; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:08:19 +0200 Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Claudio Saavedra To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:08:19 +0200 Message-Id: <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.7.2.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.511 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=1.088, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -1.511 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, Mark Galassi X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:20:25 -0000 On Sat, 2006-06-17 at 15:55 -0400, Richard Stallman wrote: > Federico> 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. > > Unless you're looking for kernel hackers, > please make that "GNU/Linux literate". > You probably want people who know how to edit with Emacs, > write code to compile with GCC, debug with GDB, and call > functions in GLIBC and GTK+. Even when you are right regarding the probably-irrelevant-in-context GNU/Linux issue, it worths noting that the Foundation is looking for an administrator, not a hacker. That is clearly stated in Federico's e-mail title and body. Claudio -- Claudio Saavedra From ross@golder.org Sun Jun 18 01:32:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE8D33B0078 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 01:32:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25300-01 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 01:32:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from black.golder.org (black.golder.org [81.6.249.35]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F5E73B0077 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 01:32:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by black.golder.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 912E14A91; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 06:31:48 +0100 (BST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at golder.org Received: from black.golder.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (black.golder.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N7kkDs0z54xW; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 06:31:46 +0100 (BST) Received: from [10.175.76.210] (unknown [203.170.228.172]) by black.golder.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32A6C3FE2; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 06:31:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Ross Golder To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:30:54 +0700 Message-Id: <1150608655.10699.15.camel@red> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.427 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.614, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.558] X-Spam-Score: -0.427 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, Mark Galassi X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 05:32:52 -0000 On Sat, 2006-06-17 at 15:55 -0400, Richard Stallman wrote: > You probably want people who know how to edit with Emacs, > write code to compile with GCC, debug with GDB, and call > functions in GLIBC and GTK+. I don't think that's exactly what the board had in mind when said they were after an 'administrator'. I think the requirement was to be computer literate in the sense of being able to use 'normal' user-based applications, such as word processors and spreadsheets, to manage the day-to-day running of the foundation. If they're handy with Emacs, GCC and the rest, they'd probably be wasted on doing the admin job described ;) -- Ross From rms@gnu.org Sun Jun 18 12:27:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09B433B08DE for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:27:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02641-10 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:27:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F22B23B0739 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:27:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1Fs06n-0005PA-9D; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:26:45 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Alan Cox In-reply-to: <1150582808.10649.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> (message from Alan Cox on Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:20:08 +0100) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150582808.10649.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-Id: Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:26:45 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.553 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.047, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.553 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 16:27:41 -0000 Linux is a trademark in the USA. The use of GNU/Linux without indicating the trademark is inappropriately confusing the registered mark. I could ask lawyers whether you are right, but I think there is no need to ask them unless someone makes a legal complaint. The FSF has never received one. The system as used today is basically GNU, but Linux is also an important component. We call it "GNU/Linux" partly so as to give the developers of Linux a share of the credit for the combination. If the developers of Linux prefer not to receive this share of the credit, they need only say so publicly; then if we stop adding "/Linux", people will understand that in doing so we are responding to their wishes. And last time I checked GNOME was not a GNU project. GNOME is part of the GNU project, but the two questions are independent. From rms@gnu.org Sun Jun 18 12:27:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCE733B0B52 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:27:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02678-07 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:27:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A58EF3B0862 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:27:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1Fs06o-0005PM-L2; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:26:46 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Claudio Saavedra In-reply-to: <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> (message from Claudio Saavedra on Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:08:19 +0200) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> Message-Id: Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:26:46 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.553 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.047, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.553 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 16:27:58 -0000 Even when you are right regarding the probably-irrelevant-in-context GNU/Linux issue, it worths noting that the Foundation is looking for an administrator, not a hacker. That is clearly stated in Federico's e-mail title and body. You're right; I had forgotten that. (I was looking at Mark's message which quoted those lines, not at Federico's message.) I'm sorry for causing some confusion. I ought to have said, Since you're not looking for kernel hackers, please make that "GNU/Linux literate". You probably want someone who knows how to edit with Emacs, do accounting with GNUcash and Gnumeric, operate GNOME, etc. (Quim Gil pointed out that it may be necessary to hire someone who isn't GNU/Linux literate, just to get someone soon. I'm not trying to dispute that question.) From dneary@free.fr Sun Jun 18 20:04:50 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01C193B016D for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:04:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15953-08 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:04:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from postfix1-c.free.fr (postfix1-c.free.fr [213.228.0.79]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C03463B00D9 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:04:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp4-g19.free.fr (smtp4-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.30]) by postfix1-c.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 153F01D0F8CA for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 19:47:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp4-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id B025D54B4D; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:46:55 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:46:51 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 00:04:50 -0000 Richard Stallman wrote: > Since you're not looking for kernel hackers, > please make that "GNU/Linux literate". > You probably want someone who knows how to edit with Emacs, > do accounting with GNUcash and Gnumeric, operate GNOME, etc. > > (Quim Gil pointed out that it may be necessary to hire someone > who isn't GNU/Linux literate, just to get someone soon. > I'm not trying to dispute that question.) In reality, we will likely hire someone who is already competent in the use of free software - but I agree with Quim that this should not be a requirement (obviously (at least to me), *using* free software will be part of the job, where possible). Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Mon Jun 19 02:11:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 126B23B00F5 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 02:11:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27639-03 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 02:11:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DDBF53B0768 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 02:11:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 9391 invoked by uid 0); 19 Jun 2006 03:43:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.34]) (83.57.177.1) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 03:43:17 +0000 Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Quim Gil To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-QZNJhnZwbMcdr5TNaRP4" Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 05:43:17 +0200 Message-Id: <1150688597.5156.27.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.221 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.378, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.221 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 06:11:33 -0000 --=-QZNJhnZwbMcdr5TNaRP4 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El dg 18 de 06 del 2006 a les 12:26 -0400, en/na Richard Stallman va escriure: > (Quim Gil pointed out that it may be necessary to hire someone > who isn't GNU/Linux literate, just to get someone soon. Just to avoid confusion, I didn't meant to hire someone who isn't free software literate to use non-free software tools as a GNOME administrator, but come and learn the usage of the free tools the Foundation is already using (detailed by Jonathan). A good administrator knowing the concepts and knowing to use non-free tools is very likely to learn the usage of the free tools easily. That's all. As Dave has pointed out, we have already at least one candidate able to use the current free tools. --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-QZNJhnZwbMcdr5TNaRP4 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBElh1VBEzHYk6x634RAk/wAJ9NJcxJMd5BaRvAE2lNm76/zlYR7gCfViG9 +4NfH+cpdGBCEPYrHBcIv9o= =rwa9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-QZNJhnZwbMcdr5TNaRP4-- From rms@gnu.org Mon Jun 19 16:09:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D20B3B0D15 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 16:09:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30107-07 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 16:09:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A0613B0217 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 16:09:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1FsQ39-00075Z-0M; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 16:08:43 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: David Neary In-reply-to: <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> (message from David Neary on Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:46:51 +0200) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> Message-Id: Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 16:08:43 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.56 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.040, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.56 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 20:09:41 -0000 In reality, we will likely hire someone who is already competent in the use of free software - but I agree with Quim that this should not be a requirement (obviously (at least to me), *using* free software will be part of the job, where possible). I think the Foundation should absolutely insist on using only free software. That way it will lead by example. From jdub@waugh.id.au Mon Jun 19 22:51:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED0A33B05A6 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:51:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18924-10 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D5A53B0301 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (unknown [81.80.162.93]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CF053C56C for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:50:56 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id F0999410E; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 04:28:04 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 04:28:04 +0200 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation Message-ID: <20060620022804.GB5152@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-25-686 i686 Reply-By: Fri Jun 23 04:26:14 CEST 2006 X-Uptime: 04:26:14 up 8:30, 5 users, load average: 0.02, 0.07, 0.03 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.59 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.009, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.59 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 02:51:52 -0000 > In reality, we will likely hire someone who is already competent in the > use of free software - but I agree with Quim that this should not be a > requirement (obviously (at least to me), *using* free software will be > part of the job, where possible). > > I think the Foundation should absolutely insist on using only free > software. That way it will lead by example. That is not under question. The suggestion Quim made is that having *prior experience* in the use of Free Software need not be necessary - however, the successful applicant will *absolutely* USE Free Software in their role, no questions asked. - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ "The GPL is good. Use it. Don't be silly." - Michael Meeks From dneary@free.fr Tue Jun 20 02:45:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B618A3B0248 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 02:45:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30248-07 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 02:45:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp6.orange.fr (smtp6.orange.fr [193.252.22.25]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41B9C3B0085 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 02:45:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp6.orange.fr (mwinf0604 [172.22.137.26]) by mwinf0610.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 2703A804F6D for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:43:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf0604.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 61BB21C001CE; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:43:18 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060620064318400.61BB21C001CE@mwinf0604.orange.fr Message-ID: <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:43:43 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 06:45:20 -0000 Hi, Richard Stallman wrote: > In reality, we will likely hire someone who is already competent in the > use of free software - but I agree with Quim that this should not be a > requirement (obviously (at least to me), *using* free software will be > part of the job, where possible). > > I think the Foundation should absolutely insist on using only free > software. That way it will lead by example. As Jonathan pointed out, our bank has a website which does some rather evil platform detection, and refuses to run on anything other than IE. So we are obliged to have a Windows instance installed, or we can not use this bank's online services. We have made our issue known, and are investigating changing banks. Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From baris@teamforce.name.tr Tue Jun 20 04:44:28 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B05333B0F52 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 04:44:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03469-07 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 04:44:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nerd.com.tr (unknown [69.60.117.115]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 354883B0F3F for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 04:44:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nerd.com.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52DE578503C; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 05:47:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nerd.com.tr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (nerd.com.tr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06570-08; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 05:47:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (unknown [81.213.157.51]) by nerd.com.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C6AA78503B; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 05:47:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Baris Cicek To: Dave Neary In-Reply-To: <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-PXVkvwvUKTNQvc8SbOVI" Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 11:43:47 +0300 Message-Id: <1150793027.2669.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 (2.6.1-1.fc5.2) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at nerd.com.tr X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.26 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.339, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.26 X-Spam-Level: Cc: mark@galassi.org, rms@gnu.org, foundation-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:44:28 -0000 --=-PXVkvwvUKTNQvc8SbOVI Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That might be a little technical and maybe out of this discussion boundaries but, why instead of making IE run over wine, you use more than necessary non-free software? (ie. Windows, VMWARE). I bet are already paid, but I use wine for IE related stuff, and it "just works". Besides, I find Linux (or GNU/Linux) literate expression a little problematic, because generally people use Computer Literate, and by default thinking it as Windows computer. To overcome this issue, best thing to do might be to call it as Computer Literate, and list the applications that applicant should know like OpenOffice.org and Firefox, gnuCash and even Linux. Once you know this applications, I doubt Linux Desktop learning curve would be steep for any applicant. This way it might solve the problem for those who would not apply for job since they don't know Linux, as people would see themselves as computer literate.=20 On Tue, 2006-06-20 at 08:43 +0200, Dave Neary wrote: > Hi, >=20 > Richard Stallman wrote: > > In reality, we will likely hire someone who is already competent in= the > > use of free software - but I agree with Quim that this should not b= e a > > requirement (obviously (at least to me), *using* free software will= be > > part of the job, where possible). > >=20 > > I think the Foundation should absolutely insist on using only free > > software. That way it will lead by example. >=20 > As Jonathan pointed out, our bank has a website which does some rather > evil platform detection, and refuses to run on anything other than IE. > So we are obliged to have a Windows instance installed, or we can not > use this bank's online services. We have made our issue known, and are > investigating changing banks. >=20 > Cheers, > Dave. >=20 --=-PXVkvwvUKTNQvc8SbOVI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEl7VD62fLHU++kcURAhtHAJ9UHIjP9z0fmc8pWeouqiuiYqpLQQCgpRsS tMw7PLzygujdDmZirBXFPkc= =t2gV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-PXVkvwvUKTNQvc8SbOVI-- From rms@gnu.org Tue Jun 20 13:56:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 728673B0302 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:56:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01985-06 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:56:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EF1A3B01C9 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:56:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1FskSW-0002Fm-Nl; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:56:16 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Dave Neary In-reply-to: <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> (message from Dave Neary on Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:43:43 +0200) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> Message-Id: Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:56:16 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.562 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.038, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.562 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 17:56:47 -0000 As Jonathan pointed out, our bank has a website which does some rather evil platform detection, and refuses to run on anything other than IE. This is worse than I realized. The Foundation is not only using user-subjugating software, it is using a bank that pressures its customers to do so. That makes two reasons to stop. Running Internet Explorer on GNU/Linux using Wine, which someone suggested, is not a real solution because IE itself is proprietary software. That approach avoids Windows, but doesn't avoid IE. Until you find another bank, you could stop dealing with the bank on line, and do business with it the old-fashioned way, with paper, phone calls, and/or visits to the bank office. It may be inconvenient, but it freedom is worth a small sacrifice. However, another approach is worth thinking about. What is the obstacle to programming a free browser so that it pretends to be IE? That would be the really desirable solution. What bank is it? Maybe the FSF and the GNOME Foundation can organize a pressure campaign for the bank to change its policies. From jrb@redhat.com Tue Jun 20 14:14:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FD993B0302 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03318-07 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [66.187.233.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9EA73B002A for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5KIEXeM012200; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:33 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (devserv.devel.redhat.com [172.16.58.1]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5KIEXXl005041; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:33 -0400 Received: from dhcp83-106.boston.redhat.com (dhcp83-106.boston.redhat.com [172.16.83.106]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5KIEXLi014411; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Jonathan Blandford To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-TDVQMLZFU5CgYyjlCe+L" Organization: Red Hat, Inc. Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:43 -0400 Message-Id: <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.2 (2.6.2-1.fc5.5) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.585 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.585 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 18:14:51 -0000 --=-TDVQMLZFU5CgYyjlCe+L Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable *shrug* Online banking is a new feature for this bank. We told them we were planning on switching banks if they didn't support Firefox or other browsers, and they said that they would look into it. I wouldn't expect them to support it overnight, and given the expense of switching banks, I wouldn't want to switch immediately. I don't know what a 'reasonable time' is for this, but we are probably just approaching it. Additionally, if you recall, the original purpose of this thread was to help find an administrator for the GNOME Foundation. I would expect the new admin to switch banks if we can't use Firefox or epiphany, but we're not exactly operating on all cylinders right now. Thanks, -Jonathan --=-TDVQMLZFU5CgYyjlCe+L Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEmDsSEXFTqNjUZNwRAk3oAKCr9C48KXFinXyWgIoIWP4UHrpfLgCdFdAI cvXosbkKBwWsgF8uQHhkKDA= =puHs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-TDVQMLZFU5CgYyjlCe+L-- From rms@gnu.org Tue Jun 20 19:32:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 822E23B038F for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:32:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24251-01 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:32:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D1E83B03D8 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:32:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1FspiH-0005lF-Iv; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:32:53 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Jonathan Blandford In-reply-to: <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> (message from Jonathan Blandford on Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:43 -0400) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-Id: Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:32:53 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.564 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.036, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.564 X-Spam-Level: Cc: dneary@free.fr, foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 23:32:56 -0000 Online banking is a new feature for this bank. We told them we were planning on switching banks if they didn't support Firefox or other browsers, and they said that they would look into it. I wouldn't expect them to support it overnight, It would be counterproductive to hurry them to decide; and if they decide to switch, they need time to do the work. However, that doesn't mean the GNOME Foundation needs to use non-free software. Since on-line banking is a new feature for them, you can do without it while waiting. Accepting inconveniences rather than using non-free software is a great way to show by example that freedom is important. From ross@golder.org Tue Jun 20 21:29:15 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97CDF3B0357 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 21:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29296-09 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 21:29:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from black.golder.org (black.golder.org [81.6.249.35]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D70683B043E for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 21:29:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by black.golder.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5740940DD; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:29:12 +0100 (BST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at golder.org Received: from black.golder.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (black.golder.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nWXZNpqFnBff; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:29:09 +0100 (BST) Received: from red (unknown [125.24.70.244]) by black.golder.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6E9A40AB; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:29:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Ross Golder To: Jonathan Blandford In-Reply-To: <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:28:24 +0700 Message-Id: <1150853304.5559.28.camel@red> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.536 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.063, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.536 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , mark@galassi.org, rms@gnu.org, foundation-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 01:29:15 -0000 On Tue, 2006-06-20 at 14:14 -0400, Jonathan Blandford wrote: > *shrug* > > Online banking is a new feature for this bank. We told them we were > planning on switching banks if they didn't support Firefox or other > browsers, and they said that they would look into it. I wouldn't expect > them to support it overnight, and given the expense of switching banks, > I wouldn't want to switch immediately. It shouldn't be hard to find a bank that does support our needs, open an account with them, transfer the money from the old account, close the old account, update some docs/notes. I can't see it costing more than a few hours and maybe a few dollars. A reasonably motivated administrator should have that done in a day or two, I'd have thought, then they won't have to sit around waiting for our bank to fix their systems. I'm curious as to why the account was opened with the current bank in the first place, without a basic check that their on-line facilities were suitable. It seems a bit odd. I'm not looking to assign blame to anyone, just to make sure it's a mistake learned from and something similar won't happen again at the foundation's cost. I'm also curious about who the current bank is :) > Additionally, if you recall, the original purpose of this thread was to > help find an administrator for the GNOME Foundation. I would expect the > new admin to switch banks if we can't use Firefox or epiphany, but we're > not exactly operating on all cylinders right now. > A good first job for them then. Also, would it be possible for them to write a brief monthly report to the foundation-list about their month's activities and expenses etc. It might help make things a little more transparent/accountable. -- Ross From mark@galassi.org Sat Jun 17 19:01:04 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F6E53B0080; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:01:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13804-04; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:01:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agora.rdrop.com (agora.rdrop.com [199.26.172.34]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A04713B00B2; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:01:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (67-42-116-199.albq.qwest.net [67.42.116.199]) (authenticated bits=0) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id k5HMCnLH009742 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:12:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@galassi.org) To: Jonathan Blandford Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578597.2841.94.camel@peach> From: Mark Galassi Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 16:12:38 -0600 In-Reply-To: <1150578597.2841.94.camel@peach> (Jonathan Blandford's message of "Sat, 17 Jun 2006 17:09:57 -0400") Message-ID: <87k67fh1nt.fsf@galassi.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (agora.rdrop.com [199.26.172.34]); Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:12:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.465 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.465 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:19:47 -0400 Cc: foundation-announce@gnome.org, foundation-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:01:04 -0000 >> I hope that it will be a firm requirement that only free s/w be >> used to run the Foundation's administration. Jonathan> Right now, we use free tools to run almost all the Jonathan> foundation's books. [...] I'm glad to hear this. I'm always embarassed when I see managers using Windows and PowerPoint to present the advantages of "open source". Although I guess their sense of self-irony should be applauded. From arieltenor@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 15:09:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 068543B01C9 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:09:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07446-06 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:09:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.169]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BE073B01AB for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:09:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id o2so3159054uge for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.58.11 with SMTP id g11mr2888428hua; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.70.5 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:09:48 -0500 From: "Ariel Rios" To: rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.34 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.260, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.34 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:19:47 -0400 Cc: Dave Neary , foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:09:54 -0000 > However, another approach is worth thinking about. What is the > obstacle to programming a free browser so that it pretends to be IE? > That would be the really desirable solution. I faced a similar issue with a Mexican bank that only supported Explorer. I downloaded the great User Agent Switcher extension for Firefox so I can use the site. Maybe that can also help for this specific bank. ariel From dneary@free.fr Wed Jun 21 02:20:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE14A3B0ACC for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:20:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12587-05 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:20:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2-g19.free.fr (smtp2-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.28]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A34173B07CA for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:20:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp2-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8471730DA; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:20:13 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4498E519.1090207@free.fr> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:20:09 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ross Golder Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1150853304.5559.28.camel@red> In-Reply-To: <1150853304.5559.28.camel@red> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org, Jonathan Blandford , rms@gnu.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 06:20:21 -0000 Hi, Ross Golder wrote: > It shouldn't be hard to find a bank that does support our needs, open an > account with them, transfer the money from the old account, close the > old account, update some docs/notes. I can't see it costing more than a > few hours and maybe a few dollars. A reasonably motivated administrator > should have that done in a day or two, I'd have thought, then they won't > have to sit around waiting for our bank to fix their systems. Update our records in various invoicing systems, go through paypal confirmation with the new account, get a credit card set up, change the credit card number with various suppliers, ... Changing banks, as anyone who has done so can tell you, is a pain - you end up finding out months afterwards that people you hadn't thought of still have your old bank details for electronic payments. > I'm also curious > about who the current bank is :) It's no secret - it's Silicon Valley Bank. I have no idea how or why they were chosen. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Wed Jun 21 03:32:26 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C367B3B073E for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 03:32:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17098-07 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 03:32:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 265943B0302 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 03:32:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 32359 invoked by uid 0); 21 Jun 2006 07:32:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.103]) (213.96.45.171) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 07:32:23 +0000 Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Quim Gil To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-9NcbC9D9ObPWb6tVSAvd" Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:17:02 +0200 Message-Id: <1150849022.5111.76.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.092 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.320, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_06_12=0.827] X-Spam-Score: -2.092 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 07:32:27 -0000 --=-9NcbC9D9ObPWb6tVSAvd Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El dt 20 de 06 del 2006 a les 13:56 -0400, en/na Richard Stallman va escriure: > Until you find another bank, you could stop dealing with the bank on > line, and do business with it the old-fashioned way, with paper, phone > calls, and/or visits to the bank office. It may be inconvenient, but > it freedom is worth a small sacrifice. Just to note that things are more complicated than this, applying your recommendation now would put GUADEC 2006 at risk. --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-9NcbC9D9ObPWb6tVSAvd Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEmI/+BEzHYk6x634RAli9AJ0Yl9ujZ51x8OevVFK6Od/EFrrVJgCgoRr9 /W9wXSuuUwhdaf48E+BWTbg= =2S6J -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-9NcbC9D9ObPWb6tVSAvd-- From rms@gnu.org Wed Jun 21 13:03:43 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9037F3B00AE for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:03:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23401-05 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:03:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EDA03B02D1 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:03:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1Ft67A-0003cy-2e; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:03:40 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Quim Gil In-reply-to: <1150849022.5111.76.camel@localhost> (message from Quim Gil on Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:17:02 +0200) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> <1150849022.5111.76.camel@localhost> Message-Id: Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:03:40 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.566 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.034, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.566 X-Spam-Level: Cc: dneary@free.fr, foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:03:43 -0000 Just to note that things are more complicated than this, applying your recommendation now would put GUADEC 2006 at risk. GUADEC will be finished a week from now; after a few more weeks go by, it surely won't be hard to use pen and paper for the remaining bills. From murrayc@murrayc.com Thu Jun 22 06:07:43 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E8513B035E for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 06:07:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14936-06 for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 06:07:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com (webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com [66.33.201.159]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC4DB3B0254 for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 06:07:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.murrayc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E839A2C203 for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 03:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 194.138.18.132 (proxying for unknown) (SquirrelMail authenticated user murrayc@murrayc.com) by webmail.murrayc.com with HTTP; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 12:07:39 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <16193.194.138.18.132.1150970859.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 12:07:39 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Code Of Conduct draft #2 From: "Murray Cumming" To: foundation-list@gnome.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.56 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.039, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.56 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 10:07:43 -0000 Here's my latest draft of the Code Of Conduct, or whatever we end up calling it: http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct I think the main content is done. More text would make the whole thing less ineresting. But I'm having particular difficulty writing the summary. Ideally it should be short, snappy, and inspirational. Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From vuntz@gnome.org Thu Jun 22 11:20:59 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7440A3B0689; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 11:20:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05338-02; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 11:20:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fennas.vuntz.net (fennas.vuntz.net [82.228.182.88]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C25A13B0495; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 11:20:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by fennas.vuntz.net (Postfix, from userid 33) id 6E19D112693; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 17:20:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 129.88.38.77 (SquirrelMail authenticated user vuntz) by vuntz.net with HTTP; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 17:20:56 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <50469.129.88.38.77.1150989656.squirrel@vuntz.net> Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 17:20:56 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Intel joins the GNOME Foundation's Advisory Board From: "Vincent Untz" To: foundation-announce@gnome.org, foundation-list@gnome.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.561 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.038, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.561 X-Spam-Level: Cc: advisory-board@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 15:20:59 -0000 The GNOME Foundation is welcoming Intel as an Advisory Board member. This is part of Intel's increasing commitment to GNOME and to the free software desktop. We are delighted to have Intel on board: it will help us continue our bet of combining the passion of the GNOME community with the need for quality, stability and long term plans of big players who are increasingly interested and involved in free software development. With Intel joining, the Advisory Board member now consists of twelve established industry companies and projects. More informations on the Foundation's Advisory Board is available at: http://foundation.gnome.org/about/ Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. From waldo.bastian@intel.com Thu Jun 22 13:26:06 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABAE43B0785; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 13:26:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13095-04; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 13:26:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fmsmga101-1.fm.intel.com (mga01.intel.com [192.55.52.88]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F9093B0731; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 13:26:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fmsmga001.fm.intel.com ([10.253.24.23]) by fmsmga101-1.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 22 Jun 2006 10:25:59 -0700 Received: from orsmsx335.jf.intel.com (HELO orsmsx335.amr.corp.intel.com) ([10.22.226.40]) by fmsmga001.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 22 Jun 2006 10:23:13 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.06,166,1149490800"; d="scan'208"; a="56897970:sNHT90202169617" Received: from orsmsx409.amr.corp.intel.com ([192.168.65.58]) by orsmsx335.amr.corp.intel.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 22 Jun 2006 10:23:12 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Intel joins the GNOME Foundation's Advisory Board Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 10:23:11 -0700 Message-ID: <8AEB79DC01BE994D8DE3FD02FA5B475B03DFAAAE@orsmsx409> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Intel joins the GNOME Foundation's Advisory Board thread-index: AcaWD46K6AKg5uJfSieruaiGax8vKQAAhTNA From: "Bastian, Waldo" To: "Vincent Untz" , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Jun 2006 17:23:12.0881 (UTC) FILETIME=[8A39EE10:01C69620] X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.56 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.039, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.56 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 15:54:11 -0400 Cc: advisory-board@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 17:26:07 -0000 >The GNOME Foundation is welcoming Intel as an Advisory Board member. >This is part of Intel's increasing commitment to GNOME and to the >free software desktop. > >We are delighted to have Intel on board: it will help us continue our >bet of combining the passion of the GNOME community with the need for >quality, stability and long term plans of big players who are >increasingly interested and involved in free software development. > >With Intel joining, the Advisory Board member now consists of twelve >established industry companies and projects. More informations on the >Foundation's Advisory Board is available at: > > http://foundation.gnome.org/about/ > > >Vincent Thanks Vincent, It has been a pleasure working with the GNOME community as part of Intel's OSDL and LSB efforts, and I hope that being on the GNOME Advisory Board will create an even more productive working relationship between us and the GNOME community. As you have observed, coming from a KDE background, it has at times been a challenge for me to zero in on the right people in the GNOME community to engage on matters of mutual interest. Our participation in the Advisory Board should make that process far easier. Through OSDL and LSB, bridging the gaps between industry leading Linux desktop environments for the benefit of users and application developers has been an important goal for us. We very much appreciate the opportunity work more closely with the GNOME community to realize that goal. I look forward to meeting with all of you next week at GUADEC. Waldo Bastian Linux Client Architect - Client Linux Foundation Technology Channel Platform Solutions Group Intel Corporation - http://www.intel.com/go/linux OSDL DTL Tech Board Chairman From gpoo@ubiobio.cl Tue Jun 27 13:52:11 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7D4C3B0083 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:52:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11203-01 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:52:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay.ubiobio.cl (atlas.dci.ubiobio.cl [146.83.195.21]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C63223B0168 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:51:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by forward.ubiobio.cl (Postfix) with ESMTP id D23DF4002A7 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:51:12 -0400 (CLT) Received: from pegasus.dci.ubiobio.cl ([146.83.195.11]) by localhost (antivirus.dci.ubiobio.cl [146.83.195.21]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04061-75 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:51:12 -0400 (CLT) Received: from mimos.local (proxlinux.epsevg.upc.es [147.83.156.10]) by pegasus.dci.ubiobio.cl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 503E9280035D for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:51:11 -0400 (CLT) Subject: Ask for schedule board's meetings From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Germ=E1n_Po=F3_Caama=F1o?= To: foundation-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:51:07 -0400 Message-Id: <1151430667.15979.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at ubiobio.cl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.464 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.464 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:52:12 -0000 After the GNOME Foundation AGM I got the feeling (probably I not the only one) that there is a communication problem about what they are doing and where they need helps from the members. Don't forget the Foundation are we all of us. As a member is our obligation to ask for information, for instance, ask for the minutes of the board's meetings. But, how to ask if we don't know when the meetings happen. We only know it happen every two week, but not exactly or if they didn't take place. So, I ask to the board to publish the schedule of the meetings for this year. I think it is a easy task for the board that can help us to control and ask for information and try to give to them a hand in any task they need. Best regards, -- Germán Poó-Caamaño http://www.ubiobio.cl/~gpoo/ Concepción - Chile From the prior art department: compare with RFC 2026. I think the time for review is too short. It might be OK for people who are working full time on Gnome, but it won't be enough for people who have another job. It's possible that somebody who isn't directly involved in Gnome would want to review the proposal (because somebody who is involved asked him/her to, for example), but it might be impossible on such schedule. Furteher, if the RFP author thinks the reviewing period should be longer, then it should be longer. So I propose something like "the reviewing period will be determined by the RFP owner, but it shuld not be shorter than two weeks." That's for "fast-track approval, if no controversy" section. Other time constraints should also be at least two weeks. I don't see why several persons couldn't author an RFP. I don't know if that should be explicitely written. An objection to "A small group of relevant maintainers finalizes the RFP." It should be "A small group of interested parties." One doesn't have to be Gnome module maintainer in order to posess usefull technical knowledge about the problem in question. I don't particularly like the voting stuff. The general tone implies that conflicts are expected and that consensus will be an exception. But if you want to go with rules like that, then there should be no gray areas. For example, the "List of responsible maintainers" section ends with: "The board will resolve all disputes regarding the list of responsible maintainers." How is the board going to do that? On what schedule? The results of board decision will obviously be public. But is the board required to write a public explanation? And why voting in the first place? Shouldn't the board be able to reach a consensus on this issue? > Two example topics we might use for a test run of the procedure are > this -config issue, and the sound server/API issue. Hm. How about testing it on the "GNOME Enhancement Procedure" proposal itself? -- .-. .-. Are you crying? No, I'm bleeding. (_ \ / _) | dave@arsdigita.com | From gnome-foundation-list@m.gmane.org Thu Jun 1 05:42:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08DFB3B0CE0 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 05:42:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23565-02 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 05:42:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 821AE3B0D78 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 05:20:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from root by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1FljLW-0003fl-Ej for foundation-list@gnome.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:20:02 +0200 Received: from 213.91.219.2 ([213.91.219.2]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:20:02 +0200 Received: from yavor by 213.91.219.2 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:20:02 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: foundation-list@gnome.org From: Yavor Doganov Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:58:47 +0300 Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440605300709u669c5da2sa352f1f5fedf2b06@mail.gmail.com> <14439.194.138.18.131.1149000460.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060530151633.GB28961@bridgewayconsulting.com.au> <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> <177e83dd0605301003h77a01816hed9a3a1afb849709@mail.gmail.com> <447E0013.9030307@gnome.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.91.219.2 User-Agent: Pan/0.14.2.91 (As She Crawled Across the Table (Debian GNU/Linux)) X-What_are_we_fighting_for: NO SOFTWARE PATENTS! NO BANANA REPUBLIC! Sender: news X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.542 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.441, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=1.5, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.542 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 09:42:40 -0000 On Wed, 31 May 2006 16:44:03 -0400, Tristan Van Berkom wrote: > GNOME is Free Software and part of the GNU project [...] > If the above statement is indeed true, I wonder where any misrepresentations > are, if they can be rectified and what can be done in general to improve > the overall interpretation of what the GNOME project is. If you read Planet GNOME and some of the mailing lists, you'll notice that many developers use the term "Open Source" and call the operating system "Linux", instead of GNU or GNU/Linux. Some of them were even excited when a popular non-free software was relicensed recently, allowing easier installation by the users, but still remaining non-free. If the core developers and project participants do not value and stand firm behind the ideals of the GNU Project and the Free Software Movement, you cannot expect that these ideals will touch the hearts of other people, particularly the "minority" groups in question. -- JID: doganov@jabber.minus273.org From jdub@waugh.id.au Thu Jun 1 06:25:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A33F3B0141 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:25:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26622-08 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:25:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF6F73B008B for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:25:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (unknown [203.217.18.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC7463CB6A for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 20:24:59 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 966C440B4; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 20:01:27 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 20:01:27 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060601100126.GA5214@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440605300709u669c5da2sa352f1f5fedf2b06@mail.gmail.com> <14439.194.138.18.131.1149000460.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060530151633.GB28961@bridgewayconsulting.com.au> <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> <177e83dd0605301003h77a01816hed9a3a1afb849709@mail.gmail.com> <447E0013.9030307@gnome.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 Reply-By: Sun Jun 4 19:54:21 EST 2006 X-Uptime: 19:54:21 up 51 min, 6 users, load average: 0.27, 0.40, 0.40 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 10:25:03 -0000 > If you read Planet GNOME and some of the mailing lists, you'll notice that > many developers use the term "Open Source" and call the operating system > "Linux", instead of GNU or GNU/Linux. Some of them were even excited when > a popular non-free software was relicensed recently, allowing easier > installation by the users, but still remaining non-free. > > If the core developers and project participants do not value and stand > firm behind the ideals of the GNU Project and the Free Software Movement, > you cannot expect that these ideals will touch the hearts of other people, > particularly the "minority" groups in question. Oh man, come on, this is silly behaviour. GNOME developers are *passionate* about Free Software, fiercely so. We're here to make sure that Free Software gets into the hands of normal users, not just geeks. However, we *do not* have our minds held hostage by dogma, and dogma doesn't drive freedom for *anyone*. We're all consenting adults, we can make our own decisions about what's good and what's not - but don't think for a minute that GNOME, as an organisation and social group is not pursuing a fierce Free Software agenda. - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2007: Sydney, Australia http://lca2007.linux.org.au/ "(Hint: IRC clients don't usually do DVD and VCD playback)." - Bastien Nocera From anne@oestergaard.nu Thu Jun 1 07:24:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D0113B00EE for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 07:24:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30376-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 07:23:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero0.cybercity.dk (cicero0.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.52]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D50F63B0119 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 07:23:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero0.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68F86678C70 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 13:23:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 164FB74FA04 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 13:23:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 22398 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2006 11:23:54 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 1 Jun 2006 11:23:54 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Bill Haneman In-Reply-To: <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149065540.5127.117.camel@localhost> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:23:54 +0200 Message-Id: <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.533 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.066, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.533 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:24:00 -0000 ons, 31 05 2006 kl. 20:38 +0100, skrev Bill Haneman: > On Wed, 2006-05-31 at 19:25, Tristan Van Berkom wrote: > > > Nobody will be driven away by that, people might be driven away by > > us stating that "you now are part of a community with a code of conduct". Actually if persons are driven away by not being able to accept rules of good conduct or The GNOME Ethics as we might prefer to call them then so be it. IMHO. > I don't agree. Every community has a code of conduct, implied or > explicit, IMO. Anyhow, there's no real enforcement mechanism, so I > don't see this as a realistic concern. > > ANY change or statement with a "policy" feel carries the risk of > alienating *somebody*, but that doesn't mean that embracing anarchy is > better. I have personally had the feeling over the past couple of years that the general atmosphere in the GNOME community has hardened. I joined the community in 2001 when I meet you all at GUADEC in Copenhagen. My reason for doing so was that it was the kindest most helpful group of people (although mostly white western males) that I had met in FLOSS. I think that being inventive is not equal to being anarchistic. Anarchistic is not a virtue in my book. Besides I find that it is not clever not to be able to accept the normal way of defining a well functioning democracy for all. Social rules and ethics will definitely be a competition parameter also for peoples personal choice of software now and in the future. > As an aside, I think the gender issue is important, and probably does > reflect some "cultural" issues within our community (GNOME and the FOSS > community in general). Members of a community rarely understand the > aspects of their culture that cause others to be alienated or > disinterested, even if they understand why they themselves feel included > and motivated. I fully agree with Bill and others here and I think we have to establish a gender action plan within GNOME, Ubuntu etc. We have got the opportunity to start this good trend! I do not say this to start a new long debat in this tread. But it has become obvious that the 1% participation of women in FLOSS is embarrassing and we need to have a look at why this is the case and make some cultural changes. I know that the Computer Science Department at the University of Gothenburg in Sweden has a gender action plan: http://www.informatik.gu.se/dokument/dokument.xsp?group=jamstalldhet&menu=org I think that many other universities and even GNOME and Ubuntu could get a lot of inspiration here. (Provided it gets translated from Swedish into a language you understand.) One of the purposes is to get more women in to research and teaching. Changing the mono culture is a vital goal. But to summon up what has happened in this debate: Most of the persons who has expressed themselves in this tread are positive to Murrays suggestion. So I think we should go for it. We might call it GNOME Ethics if "rules" has a disturbing ring to it. Anne From murrayc@murrayc.com Thu Jun 1 08:03:32 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1112C3B0D51 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:03:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00538-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:03:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com (webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com [66.33.201.159]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3998D3B0D3C for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:02:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.murrayc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D998A2CDA7; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 04:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 194.138.18.131 (proxying for unknown) (SquirrelMail authenticated user murrayc@murrayc.com) by webmail.murrayc.com with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 13:56:01 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> In-Reply-To: <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149065540.5127.117.camel@localhost> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 13:56:01 +0200 (CEST) From: "Murray Cumming" To: Anne =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.556 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.043, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.556 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 12:03:32 -0000 Anne wrote: [snip] > I do not say this to start a new long debat in this tread. But it has > become obvious that the 1% participation of women in FLOSS is > embarrassing and we need to have a look at why this is the case and make > some cultural changes. > > I know that the Computer Science Department at the University of > Gothenburg in Sweden has a gender action plan: > http://www.informatik.gu.se/dokument/dokument.xsp?group=jamstalldhet&menu=org > > I think that many other universities and even GNOME and Ubuntu could get > a lot of inspiration here. (Provided it gets translated from Swedish > into a language you understand.) [snip] Realistically, this plans needs to be written by you. Others will help you with it, but you need to create it and drive it. As a start, I think we have some definite things to try, based on the Flosspolls report: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-women-list/2006-May/msg00001.html At the least, it would be great to read the policies or plans that other science/technical organisations have created, particularly if they have proven successful already. For instance, a list of web addresses, or summaries. In English. You seem like the most well-informed person to do this. Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From luis.villa@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 08:13:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15D1F3B0132 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:13:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01060-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:13:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.200]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 043DA3B012D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:13:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so231597wxd for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 05:13:23 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=M7bRKyNesxOOt+gZaYV1MUy25dv6JMJkayJ3gFzHzPJvfGr3qCJftkHHnjf3gi9gUXLf0cU44gY2K3koUsPKQanX3t6HgTiUZez4vJLgj1VLW5Fh47YL+5aBb+rn/f63MCOnH2lfFwkirZJpcROmSo+ATikyCcARXoGuw4jXOAk= Received: by 10.70.69.8 with SMTP id r8mr613225wxa; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 05:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.2 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 05:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:13:23 -0400 From: "Luis Villa" To: "Murray Cumming" In-Reply-To: <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 12:13:27 -0000 On 6/1/06, Murray Cumming wrote: > Anne wrote: > [snip] > > I do not say this to start a new long debat in this tread. But it has > > become obvious that the 1% participation of women in FLOSS is > > embarrassing and we need to have a look at why this is the case and make > > some cultural changes. > > > > I know that the Computer Science Department at the University of > > Gothenburg in Sweden has a gender action plan: > > http://www.informatik.gu.se/dokument/dokument.xsp?group=jamstalldhet&menu=org > > > > I think that many other universities and even GNOME and Ubuntu could get > > a lot of inspiration here. (Provided it gets translated from Swedish > > into a language you understand.) > [snip] > > Realistically, this plans needs to be written by you. Others will help you > with it, but you need to create it and drive it. Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by someone with such experience. Luis From murrayc@murrayc.com Thu Jun 1 08:39:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4C7A3B0125 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:39:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02694-03 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:39:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com (webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com [66.33.201.159]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D48423B00FF for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:39:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.murrayc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1850D2D23D; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 05:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 194.138.18.131 (proxying for unknown) (SquirrelMail authenticated user murrayc@murrayc.com) by webmail.murrayc.com with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:33:29 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:33:29 +0200 (CEST) From: "Murray Cumming" To: "Luis Villa" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.557 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.042, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.557 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , Murray Cumming , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 12:39:50 -0000 > On 6/1/06, Murray Cumming wrote: >> Anne wrote: >> [snip] >> > I do not say this to start a new long debat in this tread. But it has >> > become obvious that the 1% participation of women in FLOSS is >> > embarrassing and we need to have a look at why this is the case and >> make >> > some cultural changes. >> > >> > I know that the Computer Science Department at the University of >> > Gothenburg in Sweden has a gender action plan: >> > http://www.informatik.gu.se/dokument/dokument.xsp?group=jamstalldhet&menu=org >> > >> > I think that many other universities and even GNOME and Ubuntu could >> get >> > a lot of inspiration here. (Provided it gets translated from Swedish >> > into a language you understand.) >> [snip] >> >> Realistically, this plans needs to be written by you. Others will help >> you >> with it, but you need to create it and drive it. > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > someone with such experience. Hmm, how about people working together? It just seems that the person who most most obviously wants this should be the person trying to make it happen. Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Thu Jun 1 08:50:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E761A3B00AB for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:50:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03032-07 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:50:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E8C033B0090 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:50:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from turing.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.16] helo=turing.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 1 Jun 2006 13:50:48 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 13:50:48 +0100 (IST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440605300709u669c5da2sa352f1f5fedf2b06@mail.gmail.com> <14439.194.138.18.131.1149000460.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060530151633.GB28961@bridgewayconsulting.com.au> <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> <177e83dd0605301003h77a01816hed9a3a1afb849709@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 12:50:52 -0000 On Wed, 31 May 2006, Richard Stallman wrote: > Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 15:13:33 -0400 > From: Richard Stallman > To: zuh@iki.fi > Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org > Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct > > So I would definitely agree that given an idea of contributing (code), > women will easily ask who will pay for it where men might not. Maybe > they consider open source more as "working" than as a hobby or a way > social networking or even as a way to educate oneself. > > Perhaps this is a consequence of presenting GNOME as an "open source" > activity. That term excludes the idealism of free software, and > invites people to look at the matter in purely practical terms -- > which is what these women then do. > > Perhaps they would understand better why it's worth spending time > unpaid on our campaign if you tell them that this is the Free Software > Movement, and that the goal of our campaign is freedom for us and for > everyone. If greater clarity and emphasis on freedom is the goal why not say _Freedom Software_ and avoid the abiguity which in part lead other to come up with different terminology? -- Alan From dneary@free.fr Thu Jun 1 09:03:11 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 571E73B01BA for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:03:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04032-05 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:03:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp12.wanadoo.fr (smtp12.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.20]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD9103B01B4 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:03:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf1202.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 05B421C000A2; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:03:06 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060601130307236.05B421C000A2@mwinf1202.orange.fr Message-ID: <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:03:04 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (Windows/20060308) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Luis Villa References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:03:11 -0000 Hi, Luis Villa wrote: > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > someone with such experience. That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a developer from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women involved in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who's better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From luis.villa@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 09:05:29 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB9D83B0213 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:05:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04316-06 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:05:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.198]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 631D63B01F3 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:05:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so240207wxd for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:05:26 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=BYK8lFiLJO2Ne9nZnBwCpaSMHLj/eF+Yve99+fxle95gejqE1Awkf+irqEgrFDLJVaJXbiziS8zWvNXLmkJGfP4p3kJQf/tOBDd7r6d+KgMAdM+DqPT7lTQAgS1L4cgq4N9+8G0/kBVIC9CUKcncJ4u+u6lMyAlrSBwHZV3EH34= Received: by 10.70.6.1 with SMTP id 1mr693092wxf; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:05:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.2 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:05:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:05:26 -0400 From: "Luis Villa" To: "Dave Neary" In-Reply-To: <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:05:30 -0000 On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: > > Hi, > > Luis Villa wrote: > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > > someone with such experience. > > That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a developer > from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women involved > in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct > discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who's > better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? A female geek? Luis From jdub@waugh.id.au Thu Jun 1 09:08:05 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2BE63B0C0E for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:08:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04423-09 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:08:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1F8C3B0134 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:08:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (unknown [203.217.18.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7BA53CDC4 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 23:07:59 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0CBAD40B4; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 23:07:48 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 23:07:48 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060601130748.GE5203@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440605300709u669c5da2sa352f1f5fedf2b06@mail.gmail.com> <14439.194.138.18.131.1149000460.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060530151633.GB28961@bridgewayconsulting.com.au> <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> <177e83dd0605301003h77a01816hed9a3a1afb849709@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: Reply-By: Sun Jun 4 23:06:25 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 23:06:25 up 2:59, 5 users, load average: 3.75, 2.14, 1.64 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:08:05 -0000 > If greater clarity and emphasis on freedom is the goal why not say > _Freedom Software_ and avoid the abiguity which in part lead other to come > up with different terminology? This is not a discussion for this list - please take this off-list if you wish to pursue it. Thanks, - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ From baris@teamforce.name.tr Thu Jun 1 09:27:37 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DD163B016D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:27:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05899-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:27:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nerd.com.tr (nerd.com.tr [69.60.117.115]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC3303B0077 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:27:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nerd.com.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1406B784E6A; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:31:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nerd.com.tr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (nerd.com.tr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15072-01; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:30:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (unknown [81.213.157.51]) by nerd.com.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94F7C784E68; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:30:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Baris Cicek To: Luis Villa In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-nF1xqzLT528vovi3vaHu" Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 16:27:19 +0300 Message-Id: <1149168439.2507.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 (2.6.0-1) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at nerd.com.tr X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.227 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.372, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.227 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:27:37 -0000 --=-nF1xqzLT528vovi3vaHu Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Actually, it should be someone who is able to detect possible obstacles that put Asians or Women out of GNOME (or in general Free Software). I doubt that anyone have any emprical study about that. But is it harsh and rude behavior of developers or the community? Or technical limits? Or even communication problems? (ie. English knowledge or something).=20 First thing is to come up with a reasonable problems that new comers would come across. And later people should follow a pathway to get rid of these obstacles.=20 Actually Code of Conduct may only be successful for new comers if we detect those problems correctly.=20 For that reason, ideas of the fresh community members is more important. If you're experienced then either you did not have any problem or you might even forgot those problems you'd encountered in past. Though, you might still remember old days, but chances are low.=20 IMHO, Code Of Conduct (or GNOME Ethics) should be written for that very reason. Experienced members of the community might and would forget the problems for newcomers. Something should remind them. But still first thing to do is to detect obstacles first. Else, outcome of this work, won't get further than saying "Be nice to each other" with rhetoric.=20 On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 09:05 -0400, Luis Villa wrote: > On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > Luis Villa wrote: > > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > > > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > > > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > > > someone with such experience. > > > > That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a developer > > from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women involve= d > > in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct > > discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who'= s > > better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? >=20 > A female geek? >=20 > Luis > _______________________________________________ > foundation-list mailing list > foundation-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list --=-nF1xqzLT528vovi3vaHu Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEfus362fLHU++kcURAlt/AKDgbHg3XB0HAS5zZDe4MiJSIFoVsACfR8wZ oEU7oK/r87izEkFQB/pm6dU= =aEcr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-nF1xqzLT528vovi3vaHu-- From anne@oestergaard.nu Thu Jun 1 09:32:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A2083B0D3A for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:32:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06362-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:32:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero0.cybercity.dk (cicero0.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.52]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 928443B0C49 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:32:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero0.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 317E1679467 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:32:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id CDC4774FAF2 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:32:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 23827 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2006 13:32:44 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 1 Jun 2006 13:32:44 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Luis Villa In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:32:43 +0200 Message-Id: <1149168764.6894.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.533 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.066, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.533 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:32:56 -0000 tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 09:05 -0400, skrev Luis Villa: > On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > Luis Villa wrote: > > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > > > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > > > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > > > someone with such experience. > > > > That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a developer > > from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women involved > > in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct > > discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who's > > better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? > > A female geek? I would like to hear your definition of a geek, please. Anne From dneary@free.fr Thu Jun 1 09:39:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC0FF3B0D35 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:39:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06719-08 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:39:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.wanadoo.fr (smtp2.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.29]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E48C3B0C49 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:39:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf0203.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 638591C001F4; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:39:31 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060601133931407.638591C001F4@mwinf0203.orange.fr Message-ID: <447EEE11.4000500@free.fr> Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:39:29 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (Windows/20060308) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Anne_=D8stergaard?= References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> <1149168764.6894.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <1149168764.6894.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:39:35 -0000 Anne Østergaard wrote: > tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 09:05 -0400, skrev Luis Villa: >> On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: >>> Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who's >>> better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? >> A female geek? > > I would like to hear your definition of a geek, please. >From my point of view, it's someone who's passionate about software (or more generally, about computers). The GNOME project needs people who are passionate about the freedom of free software who aren't *necessarily* passionate about software, but even then, for tasks other than being a developer, a passion in free software is probably a prerequisite. Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From anne@oestergaard.nu Thu Jun 1 09:39:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 750413B0D40 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:39:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06806-04 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:39:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67D673B0D2E for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:39:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user5.cybercity.dk (user5.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.51]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15A5F2455B0 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:39:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user5.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 9D19C3A1BDE for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:39:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 23975 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2006 13:39:32 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 1 Jun 2006 13:39:32 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Baris Cicek In-Reply-To: <1149168439.2507.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> <1149168439.2507.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:39:31 +0200 Message-Id: <1149169171.6894.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.534 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.065, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.534 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Dave Neary , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:39:36 -0000 tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 16:27 +0300, skrev Baris Cicek: > Actually, it should be someone who is able to detect possible obstacles > that put Asians or Women out of GNOME (or in general Free Software). I > doubt that anyone have any emprical study about that. But is it harsh > and rude behavior of developers or the community? Or technical limits? > Or even communication problems? (ie. English knowledge or something). > > First thing is to come up with a reasonable problems that new comers > would come across. And later people should follow a pathway to get rid > of these obstacles. > > Actually Code of Conduct may only be successful for new comers if we > detect those problems correctly. > > For that reason, ideas of the fresh community members is more important. > If you're experienced then either you did not have any problem or you > might even forgot those problems you'd encountered in past. Though, you > might still remember old days, but chances are low. > > IMHO, Code Of Conduct (or GNOME Ethics) should be written for that very > reason. Experienced members of the community might and would forget the > problems for newcomers. Something should remind them. > > But still first thing to do is to detect obstacles first. Else, outcome > of this work, won't get further than saying "Be nice to each other" with > rhetoric. I agree. A question is when do you feel you belong to the GNOME community? When there is a critical mass that is just like you and when you feel comfortable that a larger group share your way of thinking and ways of communicating? Anne > > > On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 09:05 -0400, Luis Villa wrote: > > On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Luis Villa wrote: > > > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > > > > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > > > > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > > > > someone with such experience. > > > > > > That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a developer > > > from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women involved > > > in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct > > > discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who's > > > better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? > > > > A female geek? > > > > Luis > > _______________________________________________ > > foundation-list mailing list > > foundation-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list > _______________________________________________ > foundation-list mailing list > foundation-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list From luis.villa@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 09:43:23 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF5F03B0173 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:43:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07305-02 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:43:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.196]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55A5F3B016F for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:43:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so246552wxd for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:43:17 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=UPMgxGsuCGu6P9N+IaztKhzWZWnUDGjuB1eu40MxK1NuAYJkPdnf/o0M+7UTRbphbBCZHji5W4uRedT5Trtz+xk2RNZjiehC/nOopS/OtST53stjQnuc+7XXuh50Weobl+tQK3djpBRujGIbYjkUE2DLA14rWpAxVg7jLqLYQt4= Received: by 10.70.40.12 with SMTP id n12mr737638wxn; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.2 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2cb10c440606010643x1dfe5e48mbcf68a2fd0352fae@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:43:16 -0400 From: "Luis Villa" To: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Anne_=D8stergaard?=" In-Reply-To: <1149168764.6894.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> <1149168764.6894.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:43:23 -0000 On 6/1/06, Anne =D8stergaard wrote: > tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 09:05 -0400, skrev Luis Villa: > > On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Luis Villa wrote: > > > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > > > > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer= *- > > > > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > > > > someone with such experience. > > > > > > That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a develop= er > > > from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women invol= ved > > > in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct > > > discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so wh= o's > > > better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-gee= k? > > > > A female geek? > > I would like to hear your definition of a geek, please. For the purposes of this discussion, 'someone actively involved in the development of our software through the traditional means used by our community'. This need not be direct software development (as everyone knows I do very little of that) but it does mean involvement in creating the product that we ship, and it does mean at least some participation in the mainstream of the community- desktop-devel-list, #gnome-hackers, etc. Luis From luis.villa@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 09:44:24 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5D663B016F for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:44:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07262-08 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:44:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.204]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 506EE3B0C49 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:44:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so246728wxd for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:44:21 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=GpGdnRDgVSS/SWZsX5U/sj0RXmGEYdgzgsLRzSM+2rgcLIebl2EPo+MS4FanUY2lt0S3HLELDWKLXUSbRRWSN6qQyccniZtM40z1wcvwVutMlhGHZPV/Mzbh3m8X54uRlE259+XeTT7pIYL1LFWvkKL6SI6TjBXi5UKvO5I6d5s= Received: by 10.70.6.1 with SMTP id 1mr746819wxf; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:44:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.2 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:44:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2cb10c440606010644s5af56377jb43c1e88b33192b2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:44:21 -0400 From: "Luis Villa" To: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Anne_=D8stergaard?=" In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010643x1dfe5e48mbcf68a2fd0352fae@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> <1149168764.6894.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2cb10c440606010643x1dfe5e48mbcf68a2fd0352fae@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:44:24 -0000 On 6/1/06, Luis Villa wrote: > On 6/1/06, Anne =D8stergaard wrote: > > tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 09:05 -0400, skrev Luis Villa: > > > On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > Luis Villa wrote: > > > > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > > > > > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a develop= er*- > > > > > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > > > > > someone with such experience. > > > > > > > > That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a devel= oper > > > > from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women inv= olved > > > > in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct > > > > discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so = who's > > > > better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-g= eek? > > > > > > A female geek? > > > > I would like to hear your definition of a geek, please. > > For the purposes of this discussion, 'someone actively involved in the > development of our software through the traditional means used by our > community'. This need not be direct software development (as everyone > knows I do very little of that) but it does mean involvement in > creating the product that we ship, and it does mean at least some > participation in the mainstream of the community- desktop-devel-list, > #gnome-hackers, etc. And I might add that the reason this is important is that it seems to me insane that someone could devise policy to get people involved in something they have not themselves participated in. Luis From anne@oestergaard.nu Thu Jun 1 09:59:39 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 831943B01C4 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:59:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08905-06 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:59:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero1.cybercity.dk (cicero1.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55B103B009D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:59:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user3.cybercity.dk (user3.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.36]) by cicero1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39B0D63ED41 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:59:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user3.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id E770393E9B for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:59:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 24279 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2006 13:59:34 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 1 Jun 2006 13:59:34 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Luis Villa In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:59:34 +0200 Message-Id: <1149170374.6894.73.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.535 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.064, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.535 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:59:39 -0000 tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 08:13 -0400, skrev Luis Villa: > On 6/1/06, Murray Cumming wrote: > > Anne wrote: > > [snip] > > > I do not say this to start a new long debat in this tread. But it has > > > become obvious that the 1% participation of women in FLOSS is > > > embarrassing and we need to have a look at why this is the case and make > > > some cultural changes. > > > > > > I know that the Computer Science Department at the University of > > > Gothenburg in Sweden has a gender action plan: > > > http://www.informatik.gu.se/dokument/dokument.xsp?group=jamstalldhet&menu=org > > > > > > I think that many other universities and even GNOME and Ubuntu could get > > > a lot of inspiration here. (Provided it gets translated from Swedish > > > into a language you understand.) > > [snip] > > > > Realistically, this plans needs to be written by you. Others will help you > > with it, but you need to create it and drive it. > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > someone with such experience. The FLOSSPOLS report was so eyeopening because it was written by a man who had to learn about these matters first and had a professional scientific experience and tool case to use. I will work with the whole of the women in FLOSS community as well as with the persons who wrote the FLOSSPOLS reports and others who have written scientific reports and with those of you who are interested. Just because you can't cover the whole spectrum personally does not mean that I am not entitled to have an opinion. I have experience in gender issues on a professional basis in the Nordic Countries, EU, and UN which might help. I attended the UN conference in Beijing representing the Nordic Council. Besides Luis I have manufactured a FLOSS nerd many years ago so I have access to free in house expertise on the technical matters. Have you by the way had time to read the FLOSSPOLS report yourself? Anne From hobbit@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk Thu Jun 1 10:28:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 033D03B009D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:28:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11133-10 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:28:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk [81.2.110.251]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F8913B0262 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:28:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (8.13.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id k51Dg9xP016043 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:42:09 +0100 Received: (from hobbit@localhost) by lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k51Dg8iZ016042 for foundation-list@gnome.org; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:42:08 +0100 Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:42:08 +0100 From: Telsa Gwynne To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060601134208.GA14011@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.503 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.096, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.503 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:28:54 -0000 Ar Tue, May 30, 2006 at 01:04:43PM +0200, ysgrifennodd Murray Cumming: > I don't think we need a whole organisation to police it. At the least, it > should just be how we expect people to behave on mailing lists and IRC and > it could be up to the administrator of that list or channel to decide > whether somone's conduct is unacceptable. But maybe some people would be > reassured by the existence of some group that they could go to in extreme > circumstances. > > Here's a simple start: > http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct > > What do you think? What else would you like to see there? I think this is a long-overdue thing to do. I also think that there is no fun being part of a "community" which is actually arguing the toss on whether "we think people should be courteous to each other within this community" is a good thing or not. Telsa From liam@holoweb.net Thu Jun 1 10:32:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6566A3B0225 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:32:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11652-07 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:32:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hd-t1637cl.privatedns.com (ip-209-172-34-239.reverse.privatedns.com [209.172.34.239]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7180F3B023E for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:32:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 28816 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2006 14:41:31 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO dell.barefootcomputing.com) (127.0.0.1) by hd-t1637cl.privatedns.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2006 14:41:31 -0000 From: Liam R E Quin To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149065540.5127.117.camel@localhost> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 10:29:53 -0400 Message-Id: <1149172193.8916.108.camel@dell.barefootcomputing.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1-1mdk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.564 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.035, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.564 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:32:47 -0000 On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 13:23 +0200, Anne Østergaard wrote: [...] > I have personally had the feeling over the past couple of years that the > general atmosphere in the GNOME community has hardened. Although I am not sure what you mean by hardened here, it doesn't sound good. > I fully agree with Bill and others here and I think we have to establish > a gender action plan within GNOME, Ubuntu etc. A non-discrimination policy would be a useful thing to do. The city of Toronto has a fairly good one, devised in conjunction with a large number of minority groups over a long period: http://www.toronto.ca/grants/pdf/declaration_non_discrimination_policy.pdf It was printed on a huge multilingual poster (including Braille) and distributed widely. Creation or adoption of such a policy is not the same as saying that there is discrimination, of course -- it is saying that discrimination isn't OK. Gnome has done ground-breaking work on accessibility, on internationalisation, and on usability. This work ought to be sending a strong message that diversity is welcomed. Beyond that I am not sure how to get more women involved. One difficulty is cultural in many parts of the world, unfortunately: girls are often trained to turn to boys when something needs fixing. To get back on topic of the original thread, I'd rather see some non-discrimination non-violence policies in place and then a code of conduct would consist of "follow the guidelines". Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org From luis.villa@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 11:11:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91A883B023D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:11:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14988-04 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:11:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.206]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 492373B01C4 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:11:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so262700wxd for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 08:11:10 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=c7nCkDAeUk9IARaAuoVqYt1X9YWo84LfbEM3sclWHemKQVbV6XZwhimTvwKq3L7pxQHE+osmIJDrNectrnGDL6lD3NLgBJO3tf9krWJaNK9P7mHIyFopDtnCN3soWOcj6dmTUZqcs/v2wRK7V/1rovRn7brKfqTNc4J/9yQMHak= Received: by 10.70.89.7 with SMTP id m7mr842070wxb; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 08:11:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.2 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:11:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2cb10c440606010811p27d3a2cfk1d834f6e2ca01d74@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:11:10 -0400 From: "Luis Villa" To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20060601134208.GA14011@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060601134208.GA14011@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:11:13 -0000 On 6/1/06, Telsa Gwynne wrote: > Ar Tue, May 30, 2006 at 01:04:43PM +0200, ysgrifennodd Murray Cumming: > > I don't think we need a whole organisation to police it. At the least, it > > should just be how we expect people to behave on mailing lists and IRC and > > it could be up to the administrator of that list or channel to decide > > whether somone's conduct is unacceptable. But maybe some people would be > > reassured by the existence of some group that they could go to in extreme > > circumstances. > > > > Here's a simple start: > > http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct > > > > What do you think? What else would you like to see there? > > I think this is a long-overdue thing to do. > > I also think that there is no fun being part of a "community" which is > actually arguing the toss on whether "we think people should be courteous > to each other within this community" is a good thing or not. I don't think anyone is arguing against being courteous; I'm certainly not. I just think we'd be better off focusing on actually making people more courteous, instead of writing rules about it. Luis From david.bolter@utoronto.ca Thu Jun 1 11:26:26 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5FB23B0D6C for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:26:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16176-02 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:26:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bureau8.utcc.utoronto.ca (bureau8.utcc.utoronto.ca [128.100.132.18]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CC433B027D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:26:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from otter.atrc.utoronto.ca ([142.150.154.224] EHLO [142.150.154.224] ident: IDENT-NOT-QUERIED [port 36999]) by bureau8.utcc.utoronto.ca with ESMTP id <25261-25808>; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:23:26 -0400 Message-ID: <447F066B.3020108@utoronto.ca> Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:23:23 -0400 From: David Bolter User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060420) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Luis Villa References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060601134208.GA14011@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> <2cb10c440606010811p27d3a2cfk1d834f6e2ca01d74@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010811p27d3a2cfk1d834f6e2ca01d74@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.564 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.035, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.564 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:26:27 -0000 Luis Villa wrote: > On 6/1/06, Telsa Gwynne wrote: >> Ar Tue, May 30, 2006 at 01:04:43PM +0200, ysgrifennodd Murray Cumming: >> > I don't think we need a whole organisation to police it. At the >> least, it >> > should just be how we expect people to behave on mailing lists and >> IRC and >> > it could be up to the administrator of that list or channel to decide >> > whether somone's conduct is unacceptable. But maybe some people >> would be >> > reassured by the existence of some group that they could go to in >> extreme >> > circumstances. >> > >> > Here's a simple start: >> > http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct >> > >> > What do you think? What else would you like to see there? >> >> I think this is a long-overdue thing to do. >> >> I also think that there is no fun being part of a "community" which is >> actually arguing the toss on whether "we think people should be >> courteous >> to each other within this community" is a good thing or not. > > I don't think anyone is arguing against being courteous; I'm certainly > not. I just think we'd be better off focusing on actually making > people more courteous, instead of writing rules about it. > I sense we are all close to agreeing here... I think the fear is the idea that rules will restrict us. The GPL is very restrictive but isn't that what makes GPL software so free? I like the idea of having guidelines that suggest the protection of people from discrimination. Being a shy Canadian... if I was on IRC witnessing silliness I would like the option of politely pointing someone to a guidelines wiki page than actually arguing with them. cheers, David From uraeus@linuxrising.org Thu Jun 1 11:36:19 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 675EB3B0DDC for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:36:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16890-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:36:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx1.es6.egwn.net (server02.es6.egwn.net [195.10.6.12]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1B253B02A2 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:36:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.235] (core.fluendo.com [195.10.6.237]) by mx1.es6.egwn.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 788BA4F8310 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:36:15 +0200 (CEST) From: Christian Fredrik Kalager Schaller To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149065540.5127.117.camel@localhost> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 17:34:53 +0200 Message-Id: <1149176093.2487.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 (2.6.1-1.fc5.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.056 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.057, BAYES_50=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -0.056 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:36:19 -0000 On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 13:23 +0200, Anne Østergaard wrote: > I have personally had the feeling over the past couple of years that the > general atmosphere in the GNOME community has hardened. > I don't think its has hardened as much as grown older. Going back 5 years we where 'all' in our early/mid twenties or late teens with a lot extra energy and exploring a new frontier. Today a lot of the same people are around, getting close to or having passed thirty. Hair is thinning, greying or receding, bellies growing and the long term effect of a coke and pizza diet is taking its toll on both mind and body. These people have grown wise with age, but also their patience and energy to help newbie number 1000 who asks a less informed question have fallen. So answers tend either to not be forthcoming or being short often feeling a bit curt, maybe just a 'sorry WONTFIX'. The regrowth of younger developers, who might have the energy to devote to helping the lost noobs, tend to want to defer answering questions to the old wizards in the fear of saying something wrong as things have also grown more complicated since those early days. I don't think we can solve this apart from enforcing retirement from the community once passed 30 to keep our average young and energetic :) Christian From alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk Thu Jun 1 11:39:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E01953B02D6 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:39:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17200-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:39:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from out.lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (unknown [81.2.110.250]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E049C3B0215 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:39:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by out.lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k51Dve6a014608; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:00:22 +0100 Received: (from alan@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.4/8.13.4/Submit) id k51Dvd2O014606; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:57:39 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: alan set sender to alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk using -f From: Alan Cox To: Murray Cumming In-Reply-To: <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:57:33 +0100 Message-Id: <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.3 (2.2.3-2.fc4) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.593 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.006, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.593 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:39:56 -0000 On Iau, 2006-06-01 at 14:33 +0200, Murray Cumming wrote: > Hmm, how about people working together? It just seems that the person who > most most obviously wants this should be the person trying to make it > happen. I'd be wary of pursuing just the "women in GNOME" issue, because many of the same things put off far more than just women. Running around shouting "pants off" is not, for example, very compatible with the Japanese cultural expectations. Also if "Code of Conduct" is too strong then "Expected Behaviour" perhaps. Personally I don't see a problem with "Code of Conduct" in that it deals with acting for, speaking for, representing or being part of Gnome, or when using its facilities. It isn't too much to ask for people to keep other stuff elsewhere, or to engage in other incompatible activities from a non-gnome email address or on a different irc network. Alan From shaunm@gnome.org Thu Jun 1 11:51:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E25B3B0215 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:51:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17493-09 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:51:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wolfram.com (mailhub.wolfram.com [140.177.10.16]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC8F63B02D6 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:51:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shaunmlx.wri.wolfram.com (shaunmlx.wri.wolfram.com [140.177.4.54]) (authenticated bits=0) by wolfram.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k51FpH0N012193 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:51:18 -0500 From: Shaun McCance To: Dave Neary In-Reply-To: <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440605300709u669c5da2sa352f1f5fedf2b06@mail.gmail.com> <14439.194.138.18.131.1149000460.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060530151633.GB28961@bridgewayconsulting.com.au> <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 10:51:17 -0500 Message-Id: <1149177077.31607.13.camel@shaunmlx> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.527 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.072, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.527 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming , Davyd Madeley Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:51:45 -0000 On Tue, 2006-05-30 at 17:31 +0200, Dave Neary wrote: > Hi, > > Davyd Madeley wrote: > > Also of interest, a (female) colleague asked where we're getting our > > 1% contribution statistic from. It sounds believable, but is it > > people with CVS accounts, or does it include translators who send > > translations to their i18n team leader. Did someone just look > > through a list of names and guess the genders? Similarly for > > "asianness" (sic). Are we just using the domain names on their > > email addresses? > > The 1% comes from the FLOSS-POLS report on women in free software, among > others. Hanna Wallach's presented a 1.5% figure from that result before: > http://grandtextauto.gatech.edu/2005/11/22/debian-women/ > > That's 1.5% in free software compared to 28% in proprietary software. I'd be interested in seeing the raw numbers. My experience in the proprietary software industry is that there tends to be a reasonably high percentage of women in technical jobs that aren't necessarily programming (though they may involve some programming), such as project management, tech writing, graphic design, and quality assurance. All of these positions tend to be under-represented in the free software world, at least among volunteer efforts. I'm not trying to say that we need more of these positions just to inflate our gender numbers (though I will say we need more of these positions for other reasons). All I'm saying is that the free and proprietary numbers might be measuring slightly different things, and that the proprietary software industry might not be as well integrated as indicated. -- Shaun From murrayc@murrayc.com Thu Jun 1 12:57:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E33E13B0236 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 12:57:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22029-06 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 12:57:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swarthymail-a1.dreamhost.com (ip-208-97-132-53.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 460493B0115 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 12:57:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from noname (p5497F70E.dip.t-dialin.net [84.151.247.14]) by swarthymail-a1.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D70690DF8; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:57:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Murray Cumming To: Alan Cox In-Reply-To: <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 18:57:44 +0200 Message-Id: <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.507 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.092, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.507 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 16:57:54 -0000 On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 14:57 +0100, Alan Cox wrote: > On Iau, 2006-06-01 at 14:33 +0200, Murray Cumming wrote: > > Hmm, how about people working together? It just seems that the person who > > most most obviously wants this should be the person trying to make it > > happen. > > I'd be wary of pursuing just the "women in GNOME" issue, because many of > the same things put off far more than just women. Yes, that's why the gender issue is only one (possible) part of the code of conduct, though it's the reason that I got around to finally pushing it. But Anne is asking specifically for a gender policy/plan, apparently separate to that. I'd just like her to make a suggestion. > Running around > shouting "pants off" is not, for example, very compatible with the > Japanese cultural expectations. > > Also if "Code of Conduct" is too strong then "Expected Behaviour" > perhaps. Personally I don't see a problem with "Code of Conduct" in that > it deals with acting for, speaking for, representing or being part of > Gnome, or when using its facilities. > > It isn't too much to ask for people to keep other stuff elsewhere, or to > engage in other incompatible activities from a non-gnome email address > or on a different irc network. -- Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From anne@oestergaard.nu Thu Jun 1 16:22:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B3E13B0345 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:22:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04031-09 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:22:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61F4C3B0350 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:22:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user5.cybercity.dk (user5.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.51]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 296332450B9 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 22:21:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user5.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id D218D3A1CEA for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 22:21:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 29142 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2006 20:21:57 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 1 Jun 2006 20:21:57 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Murray Cumming In-Reply-To: <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 22:21:56 +0200 Message-Id: <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.536 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.063, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.536 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Alan Cox Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 20:22:13 -0000 tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 18:57 +0200, skrev Murray Cumming: > On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 14:57 +0100, Alan Cox wrote: > > On Iau, 2006-06-01 at 14:33 +0200, Murray Cumming wrote: > > > Hmm, how about people working together? It just seems that the person who > > > most most obviously wants this should be the person trying to make it > > > happen. > > > > I'd be wary of pursuing just the "women in GNOME" issue, because many of > > the same things put off far more than just women. Yes. > Yes, that's why the gender issue is only one (possible) part of the code > of conduct, though it's the reason that I got around to finally pushing > it. > > But Anne is asking specifically for a gender policy/plan, apparently > separate to that. I'd just like her to make a suggestion. I think it is a natural step to take after the EU and FLOSSPOLS report has shown that women are being excluded from the community.- If we want to se some change in attitudes and behavior in GNOME and FLOSS, and se more women involved in the future in all parts and capacities of our projects, we need to find out why only a little more than 1% of are women. > > Running around > > shouting "pants off" is not, for example, very compatible with the > > Japanese cultural expectations. I don't expect it either. > > Also if "Code of Conduct" is too strong then "Expected Behaviour" > > perhaps. Personally I don't see a problem with "Code of Conduct" in that > > it deals with acting for, speaking for, representing or being part of > > Gnome, or when using its facilities. I fully agree. Anne From gpoo@ubiobio.cl Thu Jun 1 16:30:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FCD53B0F5A for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:30:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04723-03 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:30:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay.ubiobio.cl (atlas.dci.ubiobio.cl [146.83.195.21]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18FC33B0DF6 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:30:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by forward.ubiobio.cl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85A3A400341; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:29:06 -0400 (CLT) Received: from pegasus.dci.ubiobio.cl ([146.83.195.11]) by localhost (antivirus.dci.ubiobio.cl [146.83.195.21]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04672-54; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:29:05 -0400 (CLT) Received: from mimos.local (unknown [146.83.198.86]) by pegasus.dci.ubiobio.cl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87AB32804423; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:30:33 -0400 (CLT) From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Germ=E1n_Po=F3_Caama=F1o?= To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 16:30:37 -0400 Message-Id: <1149193838.15278.79.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at ubiobio.cl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.414 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.414 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Alan Cox , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 20:30:49 -0000 On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 22:21 +0200, Anne Østergaard wrote: > tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 18:57 +0200, skrev Murray Cumming: > > On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 14:57 +0100, Alan Cox wrote: > [...] > > > Also if "Code of Conduct" is too strong then "Expected Behaviour" > > > perhaps. Personally I don't see a problem with "Code of Conduct" in that > > > it deals with acting for, speaking for, representing or being part of > > > Gnome, or when using its facilities. > > I fully agree. Some part of this already exists for a long time ago. But, at the moment it is only applied to mail aliases: http://developer.gnome.org/doc/policies/accounts/mail.html The proposal is a kind of extension of that policy, but in the other way (saying what is good). -- Germán Poó-Caamaño http://www.ubiobio.cl/~gpoo/ Concepción - Chile From dneary@free.fr Thu Jun 1 17:13:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ECC13B03C7 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:13:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07168-10 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:13:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp3-g19.free.fr (smtp3-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.29]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4C0B3B035E for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:13:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp3-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8B524970D; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 23:13:42 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <447F5885.8080600@free.fr> Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 23:13:41 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.8 (X11/20060502) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Anne_=D8stergaard?= References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.573 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.026, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.573 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Alan Cox , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 21:13:46 -0000 Hi, Anne Østergaard wrote: > tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 18:57 +0200, skrev Murray Cumming: > I think it is a natural step to take after the EU and FLOSSPOLS report > has shown that women are being excluded from the community.- What I've seen shows that women are not participating in the community - this is not necessarily the same thing as being excluded (which implies some kind of conscious decision on the part of "the community"). Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From domlachowicz@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 17:50:06 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A76A3B029F for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:50:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09033-03 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:50:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.201]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6E823B0323 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:50:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so326172wxd for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:50:04 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=EQz0j9dnYEQkJhXAWayQpR6Xs35ItnM88LGVKIs10TURvWQmE6UuwzzLxOzpt1X2dwvby4ZelOufGT05N2Yikg+fSfXy2u6eVp3ujRO/pA1QWEdDbOk22uuXhBzixogXA7P1933/m5QcoH1eLyDgDl9Ylk6aELLr4sukH7cNQ6c= Received: by 10.70.102.11 with SMTP id z11mr1409705wxb; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.105.2 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2672cf4d0606011450m58601cadq2f8694e2968d753c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:50:04 -0400 From: "Dominic Lachowicz" To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.452 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.148, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.452 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 21:50:06 -0000 > I think it is a natural step to take after the EU and FLOSSPOLS report > has shown that women are being excluded from the community.- This rubs me the wrong way. It's not like we're actively working to exclude women, Asians, or Martians from GNOME. Nor are we actively trying to make GNOME a boys-only club. Simply put, there's no conscious, malicious intent behind the disproportionate male/female ratio, or "Western"/Asian ratio. And I think that this matters... > If we want to se some change in attitudes and behavior in GNOME and > FLOSS, and se more women involved in the future in all parts and > capacities of our projects, we need to find out why only a little more > than 1% of are women. ... because I don't believe that actively pursuing "diversity" for its own sake is a valid goal. I may sound myopic here, but I don't see what the goal of recruiting women qua women or Asians qua Asians gains us as a community. I refuse to measure diversity based on one's genitals or skin color. [However, (for example) recruiting Asians as an attempt to understand their needs, skills, and mentality in order to acquire a greater Asian market share, however, could be ok. Asians are the means. A rockin' version of GNOME on lots of Asian computers is the end.] Instituting open-door policies, non-discriminatory policies/"codes of conduct", and the like are worthwhile goals in-and-of themselves. They advertise what the core tenets of our community are, and this is something we should become better at. But one should not necessarily abandon established (nay, endearing) traits of our community just to grow it larger. You'd give up something concretely cool about the community for some undefined, possibly non-existant benefit. And that ain't diversity, it's its opposite. I'd rather see us resolve to do a better job of marketing how open, cool, and charismatic we are as a community, and let the chips fall where they will. Get the word out to as many people as practicable, welcome everyone, and let the diversity come to us as an organic result of our general openness and coolness. Where we have some specific goal in mind, change as necessary to meet that goal. But don't change for change's sake alone. Recruit interesting people. Recruit smart, talented people. Recruit people useful for your ends. Welcome all people. But don't recruit genitals and skin colors. They're neither interesting nor useful for free software's purposes. Justice is blind, and so should we be. Best, Dom -- Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums. From jdub@waugh.id.au Thu Jun 1 21:05:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 763FE3B0F8D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:05:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20266-06 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:05:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 674FB3B0FA8 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:05:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (ppp121-112.static.internode.on.net [150.101.121.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89CA13C573 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:05:29 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2569D40B4; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:05:26 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:05:26 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060602010526.GE5138@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060601134208.GA14011@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> <2cb10c440606010811p27d3a2cfk1d834f6e2ca01d74@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010811p27d3a2cfk1d834f6e2ca01d74@mail.gmail.com> Reply-By: Mon Jun 5 11:01:11 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 11:01:11 up 10:53, 6 users, load average: 0.23, 0.11, 0.16 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.445 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.445 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Isn't and Wasn't "Rules" [Was: Code Of Conduct] X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 01:05:33 -0000 > I don't think anyone is arguing against being courteous; I'm certainly > not. I just think we'd be better off focusing on actually making people > more courteous, instead of writing rules about it. I think most everyone else has got out of the "characterising it as rules" thing already. It's pretty obvious that's not what Murray's suggesting, or what we're (slowly, consensus-gridlock-ly) buying into. I think a fun way to deal with this criticism ('cos it's valid and expected) is to actually make it a Very GNOMEy Code of Conduct. Let's not beat around the bush - first point: "Be Excellent to Each Other". *guitar lick* - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ "To do: Start up a a magazine dedicated to picky grammar. Call it 'Whom Weekly'." - WzDD From jdub@waugh.id.au Thu Jun 1 21:08:39 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ED713B0D7A for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:08:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20777-05 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:08:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72BFD3B0196 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:08:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (ppp121-112.static.internode.on.net [150.101.121.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEA123C31C for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:08:35 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3CEC340B4; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:08:32 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:08:32 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060602010832.GF5138@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060601134208.GA14011@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> <2cb10c440606010811p27d3a2cfk1d834f6e2ca01d74@mail.gmail.com> <20060602010526.GE5138@waugh.id.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060602010526.GE5138@waugh.id.au> Reply-By: Mon Jun 5 11:08:22 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 11:08:22 up 11:00, 6 users, load average: 0.01, 0.04, 0.09 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.445 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.445 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Isn't and Wasn't "Rules" [Was: Code Of Conduct] X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 01:08:39 -0000 > I think a fun way to deal with this criticism ('cos it's valid and > expected) is to actually make it a Very GNOMEy Code of Conduct. Let's not > beat around the bush - first point: "Be Excellent to Each Other". > > *guitar lick* (added this point to the wiki page) - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2007: Sydney, Australia http://lca2007.linux.org.au/ "I don't want the world, I just want your half." - They Might Be Giants, Ana Ng From murrayc@murrayc.com Fri Jun 2 03:16:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 278B63B1058 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 03:16:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05391-08 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 03:16:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail2.sd.dreamhost.com (webmail2.sd.dreamhost.com [66.33.201.157]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3157B3B1008 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 03:16:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.murrayc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by webmail2.sd.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6311ADC71B; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 00:16:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 194.138.18.132 (proxying for unknown) (SquirrelMail authenticated user murrayc@murrayc.com) by webmail.murrayc.com with HTTP; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 09:16:43 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <44634.194.138.18.132.1149232603.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606011450m58601cadq2f8694e2968d753c@mail.gmail.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606011450m58601cadq2f8694e2968d753c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 09:16:43 +0200 (CEST) From: "Murray Cumming" To: "Dominic Lachowicz" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.557 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.042, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.557 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 07:16:48 -0000 >> I think it is a natural step to take after the EU and FLOSSPOLS report >> has shown that women are being excluded from the community.- > > This rubs me the wrong way. It's not like we're actively working to > exclude women, Asians, or Martians from GNOME. Nor are we actively > trying to make GNOME a boys-only club. Simply put, there's no > conscious, malicious intent behind the disproportionate male/female > ratio, or "Western"/Asian ratio. And I think that this matters... Yet it may require conscious intent to fix it. >> If we want to se some change in attitudes and behavior in GNOME and >> FLOSS, and se more women involved in the future in all parts and >> capacities of our projects, we need to find out why only a little more >> than 1% of are women. > > ... because I don't believe that actively pursuing "diversity" for its > own sake is a valid goal. I may sound myopic here, but I don't see > what the goal of recruiting women qua women or Asians qua Asians gains > us as a community. Other than the obvious morally repellent idea that we might be perceived as unwelcoming to arbitrary large groups of people [1], there are plenty of selfish reasons for doing this: - We are a worldwide project aiming to create a project to make the world a better place for humanity, so we really should be trying our best to involve representative parts of the world in that. It makes it more likely that we will create a product that helps with their goals. - Women + Asia are two huge groups of potential contributors. That many contributors can make a huge contribution if we can get them on board. [1] The idea is so awful that we should be doing whatever we can even if we are not sure that it's going to work or that we are the cause, certainly as long as those things are not going to hurt us. What we have to gain is far more than we have to lose. > I refuse to measure diversity based on one's > genitals or skin color. > > [However, (for example) recruiting Asians as an attempt to understand > their needs, skills, and mentality in order to acquire a greater Asian > market share, however, could be ok. Asians are the means. A rockin' > version of GNOME on lots of Asian computers is the end.] > > Instituting open-door policies, non-discriminatory policies/"codes of > conduct", and the like are worthwhile goals in-and-of themselves. They > advertise what the core tenets of our community are, and this is > something we should become better at. But one should not necessarily > abandon established (nay, endearing) traits of our community just to > grow it larger. You'd give up something concretely cool about the > community for some undefined, possibly non-existant benefit. And that > ain't diversity, it's its opposite. > > I'd rather see us resolve to do a better job of marketing how open, > cool, and charismatic we are as a community, and let the chips fall > where they will. Get the word out to as many people as practicable, > welcome everyone, and let the diversity come to us as an organic > result of our general openness and coolness. Where we have some > specific goal in mind, change as necessary to meet that goal. But > don't change for change's sake alone. > > Recruit interesting people. Recruit smart, talented people. Recruit > people useful for your ends. Welcome all people. But don't recruit > genitals and skin colors. They're neither interesting nor useful for > free software's purposes. Justice is blind, and so should we be. This unfortunately ignores the conclusion that many have made that some groups will not feel at home in a community until their are people like them in the community. To get to that critical mass we may need to help the process along a bit. I think Callum said it well: http://spooky-possum.org/cgi-bin/pyblosxom.cgi/womenoss.html The code of conduct doesn't try to address that directly, however. It's just a small part of it. Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From dneary@free.fr Fri Jun 2 11:12:08 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B8BE3B0492; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:12:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02791-04; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:12:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.wanadoo.fr (smtp1.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.30]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 714393B045D; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:12:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf0101.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id DE51F1C00250; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:12:03 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060602151203910.DE51F1C00250@mwinf0101.orange.fr Message-ID: <44805543.9030503@free.fr> Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 17:12:03 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Foundation-List , Advisory Board X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Co-option of Quim Gil to the board X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:12:08 -0000 Hi, When Luis announced to the board that he wanted to resign [1] a couple of weeks ago, the board discussed our options - referendum or co-option. We felt that co-opting a new member onto the board, on the basis of the election results last December, was the best way to select the newest member of the board. Our decision was made easy by the fact that since the election, this person has gone on to become a heavyweight in the GNOME community in very short order. So without further ado, I'd like to announce that the board has decided to co-opt Quim Gil onto the board into the vacant position left by Luis Villa, effective immediately. We're all sorry to see Luis leave the board, but I have a feeling that this means we'll be hearing even more from him in the future. I'd like to wish him all the best in his budding legal career. Welcome on board, Quim. Cheers, Dave. [1] http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/06/01/resigning-from-the-board/ -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From anne@oestergaard.nu Fri Jun 2 11:20:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 323583B0508 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:20:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03437-07 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:20:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero1.cybercity.dk (cicero1.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1D7C3B01DB for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:20:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EE2A63F49B for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:20:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 66BAF750595 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:20:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 7791 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2006 15:20:29 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 2 Jun 2006 15:20:29 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: foundation-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 17:20:29 +0200 Message-Id: <1149261629.6843.46.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.33 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.145, BAYES_40=-0.185] X-Spam-Score: -1.33 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Denmark to follow in the foot steps of Massachuchets on open standards X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:20:34 -0000 Denmark to follow in the foot steps of Massachuchets on open standards. Half an hour ago the Danish Parliament, Folketinget voted on B 103 on introducing open standards in the state administration: The short version: " To introduce and maintain a set of open standards from January 1st 2008 or if this is not possible as soon as it is technically possible". All voters, 113 voted in favor. This means that the Minister Of Science, Technology and Innovation has to make a law proposal at present it in the next session of Folketinget after the sommer vacation. This is a huge step forward for kompetition and interoperability in the software sector. Best wishes Anne From luis.villa@gmail.com Fri Jun 2 11:42:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4D6B3B0135 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:42:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04691-10 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:42:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.207]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C508B3B0487 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:42:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so573067wxd for ; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 08:42:41 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=alaXrWnB7HFYQ//qRQWu01yX6KdjMGVhaJlybNLM3KO7RMd5Uc4kem7mi8uVGw8RntB0znpdBPAwJGaZl1JIHs04AUo1LEXRBhVBM0027t55glEdEsh/X/4An6icYfYVvGITMl38FizG9Hsn0KfHIvq62jL7wLvvcynRswYJQiA= Received: by 10.70.105.9 with SMTP id d9mr2597990wxc; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 08:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.2 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 08:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2cb10c440606020842r42c3eed1v9b9fb9796cffc37e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:42:39 -0400 From: "Luis Villa" To: "Dave Neary" In-Reply-To: <44805543.9030503@free.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <44805543.9030503@free.fr> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Foundation-List Subject: Re: Co-option of Quim Gil to the board X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:42:48 -0000 On 6/2/06, Dave Neary wrote: > We're all sorry to see Luis leave the > board, but I have a feeling that this means we'll be hearing even more > from him in the future. I'd like to wish him all the best in his budding > legal career. Should have announced that here first, of course :) My mistake. To paraphrase what I said on the blog post, when I ran for board this year, I mentioned that I'd be AWOL towards the end of the term, but I miscalculated for how long. Given that it would have been roughly 1/2 of the term, I decided to resign as quickly as the correct replacement could be found. Given Quim's excellent leadership of GUADEC so far, I have every confidence that he'll do an excellent job of it. It has been an honor and a pleasure to be elected to the board as many times as I have- I owe a big debt of thanks to everyone who has supported me over the years. I hope I've served well and fulfilled your expectations. Luis From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Fri Jun 2 17:59:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF3F63B0424 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:59:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26906-01 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:59:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 02A003B0408 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:59:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 6750 invoked by uid 0); 2 Jun 2006 21:59:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.34]) (83.42.203.236) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 21:59:45 +0000 From: Quim Gil To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <4480555C.8070702@free.fr> References: <4480555C.8070702@free.fr> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-We/bITLkFRm0xgU/rk3X" Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 23:59:45 +0200 Message-Id: <1149285585.4975.205.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.499, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Co-option of Quim Gil to the board X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 21:59:52 -0000 --=-We/bITLkFRm0xgU/rk3X Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El dv 02 de 06 del 2006 a les 17:12 +0200, en/na Dave Neary va escriure: > Welcome on board, Quim. Thank you for the trust. Where is the manual? Throw me some tasks... to be started really on July 1st. Let me say thanks to Murray for the ignition, thanks to Dave for the companion and thanks to Luis... not for leaving but for being a referent in many aspects. I still don't know what he does all the time with the bugsquashers ;) but reading him here and there is always a constructive experience. And thanks of course to the open, friendly and welcoming GNOME community, that I'm getting to know in various aspects from my seat at the GUADEC ticket window.=20 For the administrativia and the transparency:=20 I was still affiliated to interactors.coop when I presented candidacy last December, but on January I was already independent and self-employed. Since then I'm working part time for GUADEC 2006, being paid by the Information Society office of the Catalan government (this could be considered my current affiliation) until July 15th. =20 --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-We/bITLkFRm0xgU/rk3X Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEgLTRBEzHYk6x634RAus1AKCFY7lfbc38l3Ye7IPooXcpo5i9zACgmj37 QthA+VvQOHgeSKgkqm530+k= =m61U -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-We/bITLkFRm0xgU/rk3X-- From alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk Sun Jun 4 12:16:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C50043B01B6 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 12:16:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28610-07 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 12:16:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (unknown [81.2.110.250]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4DAD3B009F for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 12:16:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k54GVY3s024738; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:31:35 +0100 Received: (from alan@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k54GVYRS024737; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:31:34 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: alan set sender to alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk using -f From: Alan Cox To: Dominic Lachowicz In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606011450m58601cadq2f8694e2968d753c@mail.gmail.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606011450m58601cadq2f8694e2968d753c@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 17:31:33 +0100 Message-Id: <1149438693.23209.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 (2.6.1-1.fc5.2) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.386 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.201, BAYES_40=-0.185] X-Spam-Score: -1.386 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 16:16:27 -0000 Ar Iau, 2006-06-01 am 17:50 -0400, ysgrifennodd Dominic Lachowicz: > This rubs me the wrong way. It's not like we're actively working to > exclude women, Asians, or Martians from GNOME. Nor are we actively > trying to make GNOME a boys-only club. Simply put, there's no > conscious, malicious intent behind the disproportionate male/female > ratio, or "Western"/Asian ratio. And I think that this matters... It shouldn't IMHO be taken that way. Most discrimination of all kinds is utterly unintentional, and that kind of discrimination is harder to tackle because there is no evil intent and no-one to directly blame. It still needs tackling, and that is in part about making people understand when their actions put off or exclude others. Alan From danilo@gnome.org Sun Jun 4 18:36:42 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED3AB3B0080 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 18:36:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15344-09 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 18:36:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from avet.kvota.net (unknown [147.91.15.33]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4238D3B0008 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 18:36:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by avet.kvota.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1A75A7D1A0; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 00:41:17 +0200 (CEST) To: Alan Cox References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606011450m58601cadq2f8694e2968d753c@mail.gmail.com> <1149438693.23209.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> From: danilo@gnome.org (=?utf-8?q?Danilo_=C5=A0egan?=) Mail-Followup-To: Alan Cox , Dominic Lachowicz , foundation-list@gnome.org Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 00:41:16 +0200 In-Reply-To: <1149438693.23209.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> (Alan Cox's message of "Sun, 04 Jun 2006 17:31:33 +0100") Message-ID: <87k67w8rxv.fsf@avet.kvota.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/21.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.489 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.110, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.489 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 22:36:42 -0000 Hi Alan, Dominic, Yesterday at 18:31, Alan Cox wrote: > It shouldn't IMHO be taken that way. Most discrimination of all kinds is > utterly unintentional, and that kind of discrimination is harder to > tackle because there is no evil intent and no-one to directly blame. It > still needs tackling, and that is in part about making people understand > when their actions put off or exclude others. Any actions whatsoever put off or exclude others. Eg. even insisting on freedom (in practice) excludes those who insist that they need no freedom in software (even if we're not intentionally excluding them: if they need no freedom, it doesn't mean that it will harm them, so why wouldn't they join and help us?). And as already indicated on this list, there are several people here who are afraid that establishing Code of Conduct would "put off or exclude others" as well (i.e. be "discriminative"). And not because they would not abide by the rules, but because they wouldn't want to be told what to, and what not to do. Shall we stop promoting freedom because of this "discrimination"? Or "being nice"? (this is exactly the reason I am in favour of CoC: just like we should promote freedom even if it puts off someone, we should promote politeness even if it excludes someone) I'd rather say that we're getting increasingly and needlessly touchy here. Lets just get on with the Code of Conduct (or whatever the name is now), and hope that it will resolve issues we as a community might have, yet are unable to acknowledge or recognise. Cheers, Danilo From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Mon Jun 5 03:15:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66D613B0560 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 03:15:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10156-09 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 03:14:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C3F413B070E for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 03:14:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 32058 invoked by uid 0); 5 Jun 2006 07:14:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.34]) (83.55.175.229) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 07:14:53 +0000 From: Quim Gil To: Shaun McCance In-Reply-To: <1149177077.31607.13.camel@shaunmlx> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440605300709u669c5da2sa352f1f5fedf2b06@mail.gmail.com> <14439.194.138.18.131.1149000460.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060530151633.GB28961@bridgewayconsulting.com.au> <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> <1149177077.31607.13.camel@shaunmlx> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-CbFrQf4qX9tQSp9+ED3+" Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 09:14:51 +0200 Message-Id: <1149491692.5124.54.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.281 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=1.318, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -1.281 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 07:15:03 -0000 --=-CbFrQf4qX9tQSp9+ED3+ Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El dj 01 de 06 del 2006 a les 10:51 -0500, en/na Shaun McCance va escriure: > there tends to > be a reasonably high percentage of women in technical jobs > that aren't necessarily programming (though they may involve > some programming), such as project management, tech writing, > graphic design, and quality assurance. >=20 > All of these positions tend to be under-represented in the > free software world, at least among volunteer efforts. Good point.=20 We can try to find and convince the very few geek women out there for free software hardcore programming. But if we miss people in all the non-programming tasks, wouldn't be easier to find new types of contributors through these gateways? Documentation, marketing, web publishing, graphic design, journalism, project coordination, community management... are tasks that involve both women and men in the professional world. We have difficulties recruiting volunteers, any kind of volunteers, in these tasks and I think the reason is not some kind of gender or minority discrimination but, put simply, the predominant geek culture (which I bet some sociologist has already found out to be based mainly on male and western paradigms). It is probably good to promote geek-ism in those aspects of free software related to programming but... is it useful to promote it in the rest of tasks? I don't think so, unless we want to develop a desktop and a bunch applications successful between geeks only. I bet this geek culture is stopping many women from being interested in the free software phenomena (in fact I asked several computer-friendly women and this is the answer I got). Being myself not a programmer, it stopped me from finding a place to contribute until I learned to be geek-friendly. And this culture is still stopping many of my non-geek colleagues (both women and men) to come and give a hand. Ask your friends. =20 It is clear that women in general are happy investing their personal time in social activities without a monetary or even a clear benefit. Women have been key in any process of social change (even if their names don't appear in the history books). Have a look on social, non-commercial activities around the world and you will find women everywhere, many times challenging the gender percentages or simply having a clear superiority over men.=20 If we fail involving women (and other "majority" groups in other social, non-commercial organizations and activities) it's because something else, an the geek culture is in the top of the suspicious list. We can work making the geek paradigms more feminine or less gender-determined but changing a paradigm takes time and there is no manual for it. Working on less geek-ish gateways and environments for the non-programming tasks seems to be a more tangible challenge that can make a change in the short term. --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-CbFrQf4qX9tQSp9+ED3+ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEg9nqBEzHYk6x634RAqlJAJ4zANfndROsAmG+04Ii2MTuE6ocXACgvF4R FcFX4ebWv4xv6VK+G+wa1OI= =/nJ+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-CbFrQf4qX9tQSp9+ED3+-- From anne@oestergaard.nu Mon Jun 5 09:40:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 214FC3B08AB for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:40:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02988-06 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:40:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46C153B0874 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:40:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA90A245038 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:40:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id DC24D75034D for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:40:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 23250 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 13:40:22 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 13:40:22 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: foundation-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 15:40:21 +0200 Message-Id: <1149514822.4447.55.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.285 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.177, BAYES_40=-0.185, TW_PL=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -1.285 X-Spam-Level: Subject: The 3rd International GPLv3 Conference: Takes place in CCCB, Barcelona, Spain, June 22nd & 23rd X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:40:40 -0000 The 3rd International GPLv3 Conference: Takes place in CCCB, Barcelona, Spain, June 22nd & 23rd! The venue has now been confirmed as Aula 1, Centre de Cultura Contemporanea (CCCB).www.cccb.org/ Important information especially to those of you who are going to this years GUADEC and have not yet brought your traveling ticket and to all of you living near by. Just before GUADEC starts there is this very important conference taking place in Barcelona: The 3rd International GPLv3 Conference: CCCB, Barcelona, Spain, June 22nd & 23rd http://fsfeurope.org/projects/gplv3/europe-gplv3-conference It is very important to all GNOME and other developers of Free- and Open Source Software to follow closely and participate in the discussions on how we would like the final version of GPLv3 to be. This is not a matter for lawyers only but a vital question for everyone who has an interest in software freedom and how you make it possible to share and build upon the ideas of each other in order to get a more free, fair, ethic, and democratic international society. It is also vital for creating the best possible legal as well as technical environment and conditions for future innovation. Best regards Anne From anne@oestergaard.nu Mon Jun 5 09:42:10 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5315D3B08BA for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:42:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02993-10 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:42:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 549A53B086F for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:42:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user5.cybercity.dk (user5.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.51]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BB1724518C for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:42:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user5.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 341613A2411 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:42:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 23285 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 13:42:05 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 13:42:05 -0000 Dato: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 18:11:26 +0200 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: foundation-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 15:42:04 +0200 Message-Id: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.785 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.675, BAYES_05=-1.11] X-Spam-Score: -1.785 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:42:10 -0000 Hello all GNOME Foundation Members, About the size of the present board. The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño. Background: Not so long ago we had a Reducing Board Size Referendum "Should the board size be reduced from its current 11 directors to 7 directors?" The Referendum Results: 188 members voted for this referendum. The repartition of the votes is: yes (117 votes) no (70 votes) blank votes: 1 The board is at the moment of the opinion that a GNOME Board of 7 persons should normally work and be enough, provided that we have a staff person who can take part of the work load. Also at present a couple of the 7 board members have been given additional responsibilities at their ordinary work places and/or enlarged their family so they are pressed for time for "heavy" board work. Since the board has not yet hired anybody (we are in the process of doing so), the board would suggest to you that for the remaining of this year, we ask Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño to join the board. They are both happy and willing to join the board, but under the condition that there is not severe objections from the GNOME Foundation Members. I think that I need not tell you, that the two candidates in question are highly respected for their long time great contributions to the GNOME project and the GNOME community spirit. Being responsible for having proposed this temporary compromise solution, I naturally hope for your blessings. Please react within 10 days if you have problems with enlarging the board by inviting Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño to join the GNOME Board of Directors for the rest of 2006. Best wishes Anne From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Mon Jun 5 12:52:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C85B63B03D4 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 12:52:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15369-05 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 12:52:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 54F843B059A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 12:52:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 5 Jun 2006 17:52:10 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 17:52:09 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 16:52:14 -0000 On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Anne [ISO-8859-1] =D8stergaard wrote: > Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 15:42:04 +0200 > From: "Anne [ISO-8859-1] =D8stergaard" > To: foundation-list@gnome.org > Subject: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons > > Hello all GNOME Foundation Members, > > About the size of the present board. > > The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the > board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germ=C3=A1n Po=C3=B3-Caama=C3= =B1o. > > Background: > Not so long ago we had a Reducing Board Size Referendum > > "Should the board size be reduced from its current 11 directors to 7 > directors?" The way I always thought of the purpose of the referendum was that it should be possible - in fact it is a necessity - that others beyond the official board be involved in organising. The number of people on the board seems to be a symptom of the fact that it is difficult to get people involved and helping out with the foundation any other way. > The board is at the moment of the opinion that a GNOME Board of 7 > persons should normally work and be enough, provided that we have a > staff person who can take part of the work load. Being officially on the Gnome Foundation board is a nice way to provide more recognition for the people who work on behalf of Gnome but is it really necessary to give official titles to get people to help out in this way? (Perhaps it is, I'm assuming nothing at this point and I certainly dont want to discourage those who work to help keep the Gnome Foudnatoin organised.) Would a board of 15 people get huge amounts of work done, or would it hamper decision making? Could there be some kind of a secondary board, or council or committee or whatever you want to call it with a more fluid membership formed from those actively helping at any given time, requiring only a nomination from the board? That might give the flexibility required and provide another way to recognise all the work being done on our behalf. > They are both happy and willing to join the board, but under the > condition that there is not severe objections from the GNOME Foundation > Members. The way the referendum was written it did leave it open for the board to reexpand later at their own discretion. If you are really convinced it will help I wont make an issue of it but there might be a better way and you could take successful referendum as encouragement to think about it a little further if this is the best way to organise the board in the long run. --=20 Alan From baris@teamforce.name.tr Mon Jun 5 13:07:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 383823B0007 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:07:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16437-06 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:07:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nerd.com.tr (nerd.com.tr [69.60.117.115]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 473403B038A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:07:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nerd.com.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D19D784E6A; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:10:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nerd.com.tr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (nerd.com.tr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00433-08; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:10:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (unknown [81.213.157.51]) by nerd.com.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id F10EC784E68; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:10:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Baris Cicek To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-FNyi3F0n+O+x6eo3x6Zz" Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:07:03 +0300 Message-Id: <1149527224.2470.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 (2.6.1-1.fc5.2) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at nerd.com.tr X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.239 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.360, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.239 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 17:07:18 -0000 --=-FNyi3F0n+O+x6eo3x6Zz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anne you better also send this mail to foundation-announce because every foundation member might not be subscribed here, but they do to foundation-announce. Also I wonder why Board need to enlarge its size, but instead asking for help outside the board. Like delegating some work to groups and just stay as a decision maker? As a side note, as far as I remember the biggest argument for reducing board size is because it was harder to decide with too much noise in board, which made being in decision maker position harder. Isn't it better to get over this problem first, which next year's or later year's boards would suffer again, instead of temporary solutions On Mon, 2006-06-05 at 15:42 +0200, Anne =C3=98stergaard wrote: > Hello all GNOME Foundation Members, >=20 > About the size of the present board. >=20 > The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the > board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germ=C3=A1n Po=C3=B3-Caama=C3= =B1o.=20 >=20 > Background: > Not so long ago we had a Reducing Board Size Referendum >=20 > "Should the board size be reduced from its current 11 directors to 7 > directors?" =20 >=20 > The Referendum Results: >=20 > 188 members voted for this referendum. The repartition of the votes is:=20 >=20 > yes (117 votes) > no (70 votes) > blank votes: 1 >=20 >=20 > The board is at the moment of the opinion that a GNOME Board of 7 > persons should normally work and be enough, provided that we have a > staff person who can take part of the work load. >=20 > Also at present a couple of the 7 board members have been given > additional responsibilities at their ordinary work places and/or > enlarged their family so they are pressed for time for "heavy" board > work. >=20 > Since the board has not yet hired anybody (we are in the process of > doing so), the board would suggest to you that for the remaining of this > year, we ask Behdad Esfahbod and Germ=C3=A1n Po=C3=B3-Caama=C3=B1o to joi= n the board. >=20 > They are both happy and willing to join the board, but under the > condition that there is not severe objections from the GNOME Foundation > Members. >=20 > I think that I need not tell you, that the two candidates in question > are highly respected for their long time great contributions to the > GNOME project and the GNOME community spirit. >=20 > Being responsible for having proposed this temporary compromise > solution, I naturally hope for your blessings. >=20 > Please react within 10 days if you have problems with enlarging the > board by inviting Behdad Esfahbod and Germ=C3=A1n Po=C3=B3-Caama=C3=B1o t= o join the > GNOME Board of Directors for the rest of 2006. >=20 >=20 > Best wishes >=20 > Anne >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > foundation-list mailing list > foundation-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list --=-FNyi3F0n+O+x6eo3x6Zz Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEhGS362fLHU++kcURAuOQAKDH1XkUp5jJbQgoPaZQ7rYkLmIb8QCgy4nV 2JPZyV+MSHCcejDwfcLG4Ao= =B3LD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-FNyi3F0n+O+x6eo3x6Zz-- From ted@leary.csoft.net Mon Jun 5 13:09:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0E4F3B050E for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:09:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16633-04 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:08:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail63.csoft.net (mail63.csoft.net [205.205.214.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A7A9B3B01A1 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:08:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 21562 invoked by uid 1373); 5 Jun 2006 17:08:55 -0000 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 12:08:55 -0500 (EST) From: ted@gould.cx X-X-Sender: ted@leary2.csoft.net To: Alan Horkan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.638 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_REAL_NAME=0.961] X-Spam-Score: -1.638 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 17:09:00 -0000 Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Alan Horkan wrote: > The way I always thought of the purpose of the referendum was that it > should be possible - in fact it is a necessity - that others beyond the > official board be involved in organising. The number of people on the > board seems to be a symptom of the fact that it is difficult to get people > involved and helping out with the foundation any other way. I agree with Alan on this (and if you read the Inkscape list, you know that Alan and I don't agree that much :) If these people want to help out, and there are tasks that the board wishes to assign to them, that'd be great. And, I would consider "did X for the board" a great plus on any candidacy statement for the next election. But, they can't be members of the board without an election. --Ted From domlachowicz@gmail.com Mon Jun 5 13:21:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D69E23B08A1 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:21:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17259-02 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:21:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.197]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 413FF3B006C for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:21:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so1207436wxd for ; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:21:23 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=QDbgo9tjZO3vERpfPc6acQItV9f5RiD/en/qTooxz0+9N7z/Wh3n9xA7QUGtyedsQWgL8ZsAdGcAjmkWhWahcnp9Q/bEnckByLEaDsr9CzOSRAUwv6913Dsiu0tpMcnIlF9SduUdcophPsryyANBrCdSJUPAo5jt0+Cb0JFYTNQ= Received: by 10.70.27.12 with SMTP id a12mr6287613wxa; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:21:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.116.12 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 10:21:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:21:23 -0400 From: "Dominic Lachowicz" To: "ted@gould.cx" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.717 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.606, BAYES_05=-1.11, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.717 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 17:21:28 -0000 > Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > > Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. It doesn't seem to be entirely arbitrary. The 3 "appointees" were the next 3 highest vote-getters in the 2005 elections. http://foundation.gnome.org/vote/results.php?election_id=2 > candidacy statement for the next election. But, they can't be members of > the board without an election. The Foundation's charter apparently says (in at least two places) that they can appoint members without an election: http://foundation.gnome.org/about/charter/ "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows, subject to approval by the board or referendum of the membership." "Between elections, board vacancies or new board slots shall be filled by appointment by the board of directors." The charter is, of course, amendable via referendum. I like all of the people appointed and appreciate that they were all the next highest vote-getters in the 2005 election. They'd do a great job on the board. But I must admit, it feels a little strange that a third of the foundation's board would be appointed if this were to pass. Would it be preferable if instead some of the work were farmed out to willing volunteers, rather than expanding the board's size? Why should we prefer the board's size to grow rather than taking this proposed alternative? Best, Dom -- Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums. From newren@gmail.com Mon Jun 5 13:22:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB4663B0921 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:22:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17203-06 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:22:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.199]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 376D33B026A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:22:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so1207646wxd for ; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:22:30 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=OsYHaW/07fQqwe80q4hzPlzWBWo0iKC1ms5AzFCgOL01x90L/CgrtB8FAvc/B7jdgfR4E5+bwA16yZhyEdTV7ZJZMtPxfOiTfS7edcdCBqilBZ76ZpgPPXn6BHsl5GCmsCEr8VTwpyKYXgP2m1GRgJqWswUUblAS0gYfATQBWww= Received: by 10.70.71.12 with SMTP id t12mr6302640wxa; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.7 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 10:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51419b2c0606051022u66212d1at72d1a175728953b8@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 11:22:29 -0600 From: "Elijah Newren" To: "ted@gould.cx" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.567 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.033, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.567 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 17:22:34 -0000 On 6/5/06, ted@gould.cx wrote: > > Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > > Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. It doesn't look at all arbitrary to me. Behdad and German ran for the board last year and are the highest two vote receivers who aren't on the board. > > On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Alan Horkan wrote: > > The way I always thought of the purpose of the referendum was that it > > should be possible - in fact it is a necessity - that others beyond the > > official board be involved in organising. The number of people on the > > board seems to be a symptom of the fact that it is difficult to get people > > involved and helping out with the foundation any other way. > > I agree with Alan on this (and if you read the Inkscape list, you know > that Alan and I don't agree that much :) If these people want to help > out, and there are tasks that the board wishes to assign to them, that'd > be great. And, I would consider "did X for the board" a great plus on any > candidacy statement for the next election. But, they can't be members of > the board without an election. There may be reasons to object to this, but I disagree with this reasoning. There was an election. Besides -- what about the case where Luis resigned just recently? Your reasoning would say that he can't be replaced. Is that really what you're suggesting? From vuntz@gnome.org Mon Jun 5 14:45:25 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B49783B0A30 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:45:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22597-04 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:45:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fennas.vuntz.net (fennas.vuntz.net [82.228.182.88]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BB153B097F for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:45:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from latronche.vuntz.net (latronche.vuntz.net [10.0.0.7]) by fennas.vuntz.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4233811267D for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 20:45:23 +0200 (CEST) From: Vincent Untz To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:47:22 +0200 Message-Id: <1149533242.30799.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.56 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.039, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.56 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 18:45:25 -0000 Le lundi 05 juin 2006 à 13:21 -0400, Dominic Lachowicz a écrit : > > candidacy statement for the next election. But, they can't be members of > > the board without an election. > > The Foundation's charter apparently says (in at least two places) that > they can appoint members without an election: > > http://foundation.gnome.org/about/charter/ > > "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows, > subject to approval by the board or referendum of the membership." > > "Between elections, board vacancies or new board slots shall be filled > by appointment by the board of directors." > > The charter is, of course, amendable via referendum. Thanks Dom. I guess it's a good occasion to remind people to read the Foundation charter, especially if they are members of the Foundation :-) Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. From aguelzow@taliesin.ca Mon Jun 5 15:06:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2890B3B03AD for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:06:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23796-04 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:06:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.mail.interbaun.com (smtp01.mail.interbaun.com [199.185.130.39]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74DDC3B026A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:06:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 20591 invoked by uid 502); 5 Jun 2006 19:06:31 -0000 Received: from 226.207-229-35-0.interbaun.com (207.229.35.226) by smtp01.mail.interbaun.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 19:06:31 -0000 From: "Andreas J. Guelzow" To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Taliesin Software Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:05:38 -0600 Message-Id: <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:06:34 -0000 On Mon, 2006-05-06 at 13:21 -0400, Dominic Lachowicz wrote: > > Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > > > > Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > > everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. > > It doesn't seem to be entirely arbitrary. The 3 "appointees" were the > next 3 highest vote-getters in the 2005 elections. In other words, they lost the election. > > http://foundation.gnome.org/vote/results.php?election_id=2 > > > candidacy statement for the next election. But, they can't be members of > > the board without an election. > > The Foundation's charter apparently says (in at least two places) that > they can appoint members without an election: > > http://foundation.gnome.org/about/charter/ > > "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows, > subject to approval by the board or referendum of the membership." > > "Between elections, board vacancies or new board slots shall be filled > by appointment by the board of directors." This is different from temporarily appointing 2 additional members. Of course the board can add new seats, but they will then be permanent until (again?) removed via a referendum. Andreas -- Andreas J. Guelzow Pyrenean Shepherds From anne@oestergaard.nu Mon Jun 5 15:18:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CB5D3B07BB for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:18:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24554-02 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:18:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero1.cybercity.dk (cicero1.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92A023B077A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:18:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id D758763EE23 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:18:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 837677502C0 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:18:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 26566 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 19:18:19 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 19:18:19 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Alan Horkan In-Reply-To: References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:18:18 +0200 Message-Id: <1149535098.4447.95.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.529 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.070, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.529 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:18:36 -0000 man, 05 06 2006 kl. 17:52 +0100, skrev Alan Horkan: > On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Anne [ISO-8859-1] stergaard wrote: > > > Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 15:42:04 +0200 > > From: "Anne [ISO-8859-1] stergaard" > > To: foundation-list@gnome.org > > Subject: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons > > > > Hello all GNOME Foundation Members, > > > > About the size of the present board. > > > > The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the > > board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño. > > > > Background: > > Not so long ago we had a Reducing Board Size Referendum > > > > "Should the board size be reduced from its current 11 directors to 7 > > directors?" > > The way I always thought of the purpose of the referendum was that it > should be possible - in fact it is a necessity - that others beyond the > official board be involved in organising. The number of people on the > board seems to be a symptom of the fact that it is difficult to get people > involved and helping out with the foundation any other way. > > > The board is at the moment of the opinion that a GNOME Board of 7 > > persons should normally work and be enough, provided that we have a > > staff person who can take part of the work load. > > Being officially on the Gnome Foundation board is a nice way to provide > more recognition for the people who work on behalf of Gnome but is it > really necessary to give official titles to get people to help out in this > way? (Perhaps it is, I'm assuming nothing at this point and I certainly > dont want to discourage those who work to help keep the Gnome Foudnatoin > organised.) > > Would a board of 15 people get huge amounts of work done, or would it > hamper decision making? > > Could there be some kind of a secondary board, or council or committee or > whatever you want to call it with a more fluid membership formed from > those actively helping at any given time, requiring only a nomination from > reallythe board? That might give the flexibility required and provide another > way to recognise all the work being done on our behalf. I really think this is a good idea. We need to be better at delegating. But we get stuck when we talk about how it should be done in practice. However we have asked different members of our community for help and gotten it at several occasions, so I guess we are learning. Having a list of persons who has got time and energy to help prepare a case and make a recommendation to the board should make it so much easier for the board. I am all for that we let foundation members and even not yet foundation members sign up om a helpers Wiki page telling a little about which interests they have, how long they have been involved in the GNOME project, which kind of things they have helped out with before etc. But until we have found a proper form for how we delegate tasks I am afraid that we are short of heads and hands. Lets have an informal BoF at GUADEC on good delegation practice in GNOME. I am all for it. Anne From anne@oestergaard.nu Mon Jun 5 15:22:14 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80BEC3B038A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:22:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24742-05 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:22:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero1.cybercity.dk (cicero1.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 542403B00BE for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:22:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user3.cybercity.dk (user3.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.36]) by cicero1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36AC663E93E for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:22:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user3.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id E635293DC2 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:22:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 26602 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 19:22:10 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 19:22:10 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: ted@gould.cx In-Reply-To: References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:22:09 +0200 Message-Id: <1149535330.4447.101.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.53 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.069, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.53 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:22:14 -0000 man, 05 06 2006 kl. 12:08 -0500, skrev ted@gould.cx: > Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > > Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. OK these two persons were next on the list of persons who nearly made it to the board.(Only a few votes difference to those getting elected.) So it was not a random choice. Anne From ted@leary.csoft.net Mon Jun 5 15:35:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BF673B0947 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:35:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25691-08 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:35:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail63.csoft.net (mail63.csoft.net [205.205.214.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id ECAFE3B0668 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:35:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 4151 invoked by uid 1373); 5 Jun 2006 19:35:50 -0000 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:35:50 -0500 (EST) From: ted@gould.cx X-X-Sender: ted@leary2.csoft.net To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149535330.4447.101.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149535330.4447.101.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-2040552725-1149536150=:22433" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.638 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_REAL_NAME=0.961] X-Spam-Score: -1.638 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:35:57 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-2040552725-1149536150=:22433 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Anne =D8stergaard wrote: > man, 05 06 2006 kl. 12:08 -0500, skrev ted@gould.cx: >> Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) >> >> Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect >> everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. > > OK these two persons were next on the list of persons who nearly made it > to the board.(Only a few votes difference to those getting elected.) > > So it was not a random choice. Sorry, I didn't take the time to look at who you were suggesting. I still= =20 don't believe that the board should be adding members to itself without an= =20 election, whether they can or not. I think actions like that leave too=20 much room for cronyism in the future. As for getting people involved, perhaps posting to this list? I realize=20 it's hard to find tasks that someone might be able to pick up and do, but= =20 it is usually worthwhile in the end. Perhaps a "TODO" list on=20 live.gnome.org of things that the board is planning on doing, and will do,= =20 but if someone wants to beat them to it :) Perhaps something in the=20 meeting minutes? =09=09--Ted --0-2040552725-1149536150=:22433-- From anne@oestergaard.nu Mon Jun 5 15:40:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ADBC3B099D for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:40:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25830-05 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:40:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 986293B0947 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:40:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user4.cybercity.dk (user4.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.50]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 606272453B1 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:40:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user4.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 2483750391 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:40:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 26767 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 19:39:59 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 19:39:59 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Baris Cicek In-Reply-To: <1149527224.2470.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149527224.2470.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:39:59 +0200 Message-Id: <1149536399.4447.120.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.531 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.068, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.531 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:40:12 -0000 man, 05 06 2006 kl. 20:07 +0300, skrev Baris Cicek: > Anne you better also send this mail to foundation-announce because every > foundation member might not be subscribed here, but they do to > foundation-announce. I will do so. > Also I wonder why Board need to enlarge its size, but instead asking for > help outside the board. Like delegating some work to groups and just > stay as a decision maker? This is the way I would like to se things being delegated. I quite old and well proven way of doing it. > As a side note, as far as I remember the biggest argument for reducing > board size is because it was harder to decide with too much noise in > board, which made being in decision maker position harder. Isn't it > better to get over this problem first, which next year's or later year's > boards would suffer again, instead of temporary solutions We are in reality down to 5+ persons at times and this is not enough at the moment. We are getting the the Advisory Board more involved and the technical/or embedded devices group started so we are quite busy. If we do not get two more persons on the board, I think that we risk that the busy persons step down, and we will get the good new persons on board any way, but at the risk of loosing continuity and experience. It takes a little while before completely new board members get the feeling of how things are being done and which things must be taken care of first to get the business running. ( I am here talking of book keeping, accounting and financial insight and overview.) Anne From anne@oestergaard.nu Mon Jun 5 15:50:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 439B73B0952 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:50:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26247-10 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:50:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero1.cybercity.dk (cicero1.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63D3A3B058A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:50:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CDAC63F924 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:50:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id B2E0F750057 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:50:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 26992 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 19:50:38 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 19:50:38 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: ted@gould.cx In-Reply-To: References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149535330.4447.101.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:50:37 +0200 Message-Id: <1149537038.4447.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.531 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.068, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.531 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:50:49 -0000 man, 05 06 2006 kl. 14:35 -0500, skrev ted@gould.cx: > On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Anne stergaard wrote: > > man, 05 06 2006 kl. 12:08 -0500, skrev ted@gould.cx: > >> Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > >> > >> Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > >> everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. > > > > OK these two persons were next on the list of persons who nearly made it > > to the board.(Only a few votes difference to those getting elected.) > > > > So it was not a random choice. > > Sorry, I didn't take the time to look at who you were suggesting. I still > don't believe that the board should be adding members to itself without an > election, whether they can or not. I think actions like that leave too > much room for cronyism in the future. The problem is that it sometimes takes as long time to describe the tasks as simply doing them yourself. Also you have to check if people are doing what they said they would do and within reasonable time. You need to know people better in order to know if they just say yes and then forget all about it or they deliver if they have said they will. May be we should find a people and tasks manager. But this being said we all agree on the board that we shall delegate more and more tasks to the community because this is real important for the growth and continuity of our community. We are trying, Ted. Anne From dneary@free.fr Mon Jun 5 15:54:31 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C7B23B0011 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:54:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26894-05 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:54:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2-g19.free.fr (smtp2-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.28]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B8083B0012 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:54:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp2-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E624731A6; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:54:27 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:54:02 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060521) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Andreas J. Guelzow" References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> In-Reply-To: <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:54:31 -0000 Hi Andrew, Andreas J. Guelzow wrote: > On Mon, 2006-05-06 at 13:21 -0400, Dominic Lachowicz wrote: >> "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows, >> subject to approval by the board or referendum of the membership." >> >> "Between elections, board vacancies or new board slots shall be filled >> by appointment by the board of directors." > > This is different from temporarily appointing 2 additional members. Of > course the board can add new seats, but they will then be permanent > until (again?) removed via a referendum. No - the referendum last year was non-binding (as mentioned afterwards by Dom, I think). The board has the power to decide before the elections each year how many seats will be available. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From aguelzow@taliesin.ca Mon Jun 5 16:08:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DF1E3B0011 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:08:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27618-01 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:07:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp02.mail.interbaun.com (smtp02auth.mail.interbaun.com [199.185.130.52]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 19A263B0129 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:07:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 29676 invoked by uid 502); 5 Jun 2006 20:01:14 -0000 Received: from 226.207-229-35-0.interbaun.com (207.229.35.226) by smtp02.mail.interbaun.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 20:01:14 -0000 From: "Andreas J. Guelzow" To: Gnome Foundation In-Reply-To: <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Taliesin Software Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 14:00:22 -0600 Message-Id: <1149537622.6058.61.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:08:00 -0000 On Mon, 2006-05-06 at 21:54 +0200, David Neary wrote: > Hi Andrew, > > Andreas J. Guelzow wrote: > > On Mon, 2006-05-06 at 13:21 -0400, Dominic Lachowicz wrote: > >> "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows, > >> subject to approval by the board or referendum of the membership." > >> > >> "Between elections, board vacancies or new board slots shall be filled > >> by appointment by the board of directors." > > > > This is different from temporarily appointing 2 additional members. Of > > course the board can add new seats, but they will then be permanent > > until (again?) removed via a referendum. > > No - the referendum last year was non-binding (as mentioned afterwards > by Dom, I think). The board has the power to decide before the elections > each year how many seats will be available. So, the board can decide how many people it wants to have elected and then it can add an arbitrary number of additional members after the election. Why do we have elections in the first place? Of course "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows". Has trhe project really grown that significantly since the last election? Andreas From dneary@free.fr Mon Jun 5 16:09:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 971FF3B01AE for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:09:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27618-09 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:09:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp5-g19.free.fr (smtp5-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.35]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 864F73B002C for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:09:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp5-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB3212774B; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 22:09:28 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <44848F5A.3090300@free.fr> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 22:08:58 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060521) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ted@gould.cx References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149535330.4447.101.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:09:33 -0000 Hi, ted@gould.cx wrote: > As for getting people involved, perhaps posting to this list? I realize > it's hard to find tasks that someone might be able to pick up and do, > but it is usually worthwhile in the end. Perhaps a "TODO" list on > live.gnome.org of things that the board is planning on doing, and will > do, but if someone wants to beat them to it :) Perhaps something in the > meeting minutes? This point has come up a couple of times. Getting people onto the board (or at least onto board-list and on the conference calls) is useful, because a fair amount of what the board isn't doing well this year (primarily because we don't have an employee, it has to be said) is private, or requires a mandate. Things like lodging cheques or withdrawing money from the bank account, dealing with our accountant to get official forms or information on the foundation, invoicing companies for money, being aware of donations coming in and thanking donors (who potentially want to stay anonymous), things like that. There are many things that we could perhaps do more out in the open, and filtering our agendas and minutes better into public/private parts (as we started to do at the beginning of the year), posting them in a more regular and timely manner, and so on. All of those tasks take time, along with all of the other slack we've been picking up, and (as Anne pointed out) the changes in the personal and work lives of a few board members, distribution releases, births, job changes, travel with work and so on. But all the stuff that we're struggling with at the moment is kind of private stuff - which means having some kind of non-public inner circle of people - perhaps not on the board, but at least in some way engaged to respect board secrecy. Anything that we have been able to do in public (or avoid doing by delegating), we've been mostly doing. For what it's worth, I think most of our problems will go away once we have an employee, but back in October, I said that one reason why we shouldn't be afraid to reduce the number was because we would always have the possibility to increase it again if we realised we had made a mistake. I definitely thought that a few months ago, but when we had Zana as our admin, she not only caught up with the backlog, we had the impression that things were really moving forward. At the moment, we don't have 7 active, regularly answering their board mail board members. I think 6 active board members is probably enough to hold down the fort, if no important functions are missing, but we're more likely to have 6 or 7 active out of 9 than out of 7. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From dneary@free.fr Mon Jun 5 16:15:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40E3C3B002C for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:15:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28035-03 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:15:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1-g19.free.fr (smtp1-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.27]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 002103B0208 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:15:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp1-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2337A9AC97; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 22:14:59 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <448490A4.5070904@free.fr> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 22:14:28 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060521) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Andreas J. Guelzow" References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> <1149537622.6058.61.camel@localhost> In-Reply-To: <1149537622.6058.61.camel@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Gnome Foundation Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:15:03 -0000 Hi, Andreas J. Guelzow wrote: > So, the board can decide how many people it wants to have elected and > then it can add an arbitrary number of additional members after the > election. Why do we have elections in the first place? The board must have at least 7 people. Aside from that, your summary is correct. But then, we're supposed to trust our board members at election time - that's why we vote for them, isn't it? :) Seriously - the board will not abuse this, but co-opting members onto the board to handle workload is a common occurrence - as is setting up empowered sub-committees. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From newren@gmail.com Mon Jun 5 16:29:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6877C3B03EA for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:29:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29362-06 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.205]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FB293B06D7 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so1248330wxd for ; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:29:14 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=c0DI0gAqSXwHBKoFxTl2TtOdhohkR7RE11uhZPi32bUo3Db8eVQxiyFtijAYvj0mM1N8hFRyyMEejGtQxltidUZuBOYGPMXcRg7kfKRC/4YgSX/MXW3+uh+5JHFjOra8K4QYb3i+t2rdSQLUefDuiKH0Z/2TJU4kKbAWbjBlig8= Received: by 10.70.113.20 with SMTP id l20mr6543579wxc; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.7 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51419b2c0606051329p7c73e3a2p94a15b77e9cd5585@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:29:11 -0600 From: "Elijah Newren" To: "David Neary" In-Reply-To: <448490A4.5070904@free.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> <1149537622.6058.61.camel@localhost> <448490A4.5070904@free.fr> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.569 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.031, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.569 X-Spam-Level: Cc: "Andreas J. Guelzow" , Gnome Foundation Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:29:18 -0000 On 6/5/06, David Neary wrote: > > Hi, > > Andreas J. Guelzow wrote: > > So, the board can decide how many people it wants to have elected and > > then it can add an arbitrary number of additional members after the > > election. Why do we have elections in the first place? > > The board must have at least 7 people. Aside from that, your summary is > correct. But then, we're supposed to trust our board members at election > time - that's why we vote for them, isn't it? :) > > Seriously - the board will not abuse this, but co-opting members onto > the board to handle workload is a common occurrence - as is setting up > empowered sub-committees. Would the board lose anything by creating an empowered sub-committee here specifically consisting of Behdad and German? That would seem to quell most of the problems people have voiced against the proposal, and perhaps still allow all the same stuff to get done. I'm thinking here of the analogy to the release team -- the board formed the release-team (and still has oversight of it, if necessary), yet release-team members (assuming they are not also board members) have no board powers other than the release-team tasks they have been delegated to handle. I could be wrong, but judging from the comments so far, I believe that handles the delegation many people want to see. From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 5 18:42:02 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13AC73B03A0 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 18:42:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06160-02 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 18:42:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75B993B039F for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 18:42:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k55Mfwkk003546 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:41:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J0E00701RZ13Q@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for foundation-list@gnome.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 23:41:58 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-116-52.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.116.52]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J0E00E5MSDY03@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 23:41:58 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 00:08:39 +0100 From: Bill Haneman In-reply-to: <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> To: David Neary Message-id: <1149548919.12099.8.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: Cc: "Andreas J. Guelzow" , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 22:42:02 -0000 On Mon, 2006-06-05 at 20:54, David Neary wrote: > Hi Andrew,... > No - the referendum last year was non-binding (as mentioned afterwards > by Dom, I think). The board has the power to decide before the elections > each year how many seats will be available. Having only recently had a referendum on this (or at least a closely related issue, e.g. the size of the Board), I think that if the Board wants to retain the goodwill and trust of the electorate it should abide by the referendum results. A key argument in favor of the "reduce the size of the Board" referendum was that it would be accompanied by expanded delegation and the formation of subcommittees/action groups etc. to which tasks would be delegated by the Board. Let's do it! Bill > Cheers, > Dave. > > -- > Dave Neary > bolsh@gimp.org > Lyon, France > _______________________________________________ > foundation-list mailing list > foundation-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list From Glynn.Foster@Sun.COM Mon Jun 5 23:20:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A19F3B00AE for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 23:20:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19367-02 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 23:20:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 128553B00A2 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 23:20:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-06.sun.com (d1-emea-06.sun.com [192.18.2.116] (may be forged)) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k563Jxnp029303 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:19:59 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-06.sun.com by d1-emea-06.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0F0060154EH200@d1-emea-06.sun.com> (original mail from Glynn.Foster@Sun.COM) for foundation-list@gnome.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 04:19:59 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.18.42.16] by d1-emea-06.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0F004ED595ZZ20@d1-emea-06.sun.com>; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 04:19:58 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 15:23:21 +1200 From: Glynn Foster In-reply-to: <448490A4.5070904@free.fr> Sender: Glynn.Foster@Sun.COM To: David Neary Message-id: <4484F529.9010505@sun.com> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> <1149537622.6058.61.camel@localhost> <448490A4.5070904@free.fr> User-Agent: Mail/News 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060515) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.596 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.002, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.596 X-Spam-Level: Cc: "Andreas J. Guelzow" , Gnome Foundation Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 03:20:07 -0000 Hi, David Neary wrote: > Hi, > > Andreas J. Guelzow wrote: >> So, the board can decide how many people it wants to have elected and >> then it can add an arbitrary number of additional members after the >> election. Why do we have elections in the first place? > > The board must have at least 7 people. Aside from that, your summary is > correct. But then, we're supposed to trust our board members at election > time - that's why we vote for them, isn't it? :) > > Seriously - the board will not abuse this, but co-opting members onto > the board to handle workload is a common occurrence - as is setting up > empowered sub-committees. Will the new members have full voting rights on the board? I'm not sure I really mind either way given my previous experiences on the board, but I think we need to be careful about this since we're setting a precedent here. Glynn From james.henstridge@gmail.com Tue Jun 6 00:48:09 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 999093B007A for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 00:48:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22963-06 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 00:48:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.197]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE4EB3B0012 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 00:48:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so1343934wxd for ; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:48:07 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=s6W90tAFFMqbeF1zOA6cMOwf/4VT54VrjJ+T2QKnHBmd3wsR7fZ7AkQ83efEHduxKZMd4Wjbyv4ZlmUgVwusdTpfYGO4/1uQGQ9QGvp79F5CwIfJVkentnyjFKl4FNde0NN0q2W1cJ2Qogm71qV/5PMIAgV93neIPJUDMtvGjzc= Received: by 10.70.109.7 with SMTP id h7mr7003673wxc; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.60.15 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:48:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 12:48:06 +0800 From: "James Henstridge" Sender: james.henstridge@gmail.com To: "Dominic Lachowicz" In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 62eb23e7e8bd3462 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.582 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.582 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org, "ted@gould.cx" Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 04:48:09 -0000 On 06/06/06, Dominic Lachowicz wrote: > > Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > > > > Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > > everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. > > It doesn't seem to be entirely arbitrary. The 3 "appointees" were the > next 3 highest vote-getters in the 2005 elections. > > http://foundation.gnome.org/vote/results.php?election_id=2 Of course, the results of the elections may have been quite different if Luis didn't stand, and each member had two more votes to cover the additional seats. If this sort of thing is likely to happen again, it might be worth switching to a preferential voting system where we'd have all the information to see what the result would be if a candidate was removed or the number of seats increased. Dispite this, I am sure that Behdad and German would make good additions to the board. James. From jdub@waugh.id.au Tue Jun 6 01:12:02 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9CA63B0092 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:12:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24144-02 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:12:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69B643B0728 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:12:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (ppp121-112.static.internode.on.net [150.101.121.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F89C3C382 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:11:59 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 888F93F9C; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:11:54 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:11:54 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: Reply-By: Fri Jun 9 15:10:21 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 15:10:21 up 4 days, 15:02, 11 users, load average: 0.08, 0.08, 0.01 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.017, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 05:12:02 -0000 > But, they can't be members of the board without an election. Just want to point out that, yes, they can be - please read the Foundation by-laws. The board can change the size of the board at will, and nominate members at will. The referendum process was not done because it was necessary, it was done to understand the will of the membership (and delegate the decision to them). - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ "You gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, and know when to run." - Kenny Rogers, The Gambler From jdub@waugh.id.au Tue Jun 6 01:40:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8905F3B0018 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:40:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25374-02 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:40:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 428533B000D for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:40:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (ppp121-112.static.internode.on.net [150.101.121.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 571303C257 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:40:50 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 797943F9C; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:40:45 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:40:45 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060606054045.GM5138@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Reply-By: Fri Jun 9 15:13:53 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 15:13:53 up 4 days, 15:05, 11 users, load average: 0.09, 0.08, 0.02 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.017, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 05:40:54 -0000 > The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the > board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño. My personal opinion on this, as stated to the board: * We made our bed with the one-two-punch combination of change in board size and change in number of employees (currently zero). * Given that we delegated the decision regarding board size to the members and executed that change, it would be inappropriate only six or so months down the track to change it again. * The biggest problem right now (as I see it) is lack of board member time on the ground in Boston. We can distribute and delegate almost everything else effectively. This is impacting administration tasks and employment plans. * We are attempting to do big things without the benefit of having a face to face meeting. Every board so far has been more effective post-GUADEC, after they've had the opportunity to sit down, grind through the issues with a lot of social bandwidth and look each other up and down a bit. It really helps develop shared vision, shared values and shared trust in a way that mail, phone and IRC can't. - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ "The ability to procrastinate is what separates us from the machines." - Chris Gregory, Desktop Magazine From veillard@redhat.com Tue Jun 6 04:58:29 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E3D33B00ED for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25831-09 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [66.187.233.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D1023B00CB for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k568wKkC013649 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:20 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (devserv.devel.redhat.com [172.16.58.1]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k568wKR7017325 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:20 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k568wK9S021047 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:20 -0400 Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11/Submit) id k568wKOU021040 for foundation-list@gnome.org; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:20 -0400 Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:19 -0400 From: Daniel Veillard To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.367 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.003, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, TW_BX=0.077, TW_IB=0.077, TW_PM=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.367 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 08:58:29 -0000 On Tue, Jun 06, 2006 at 03:11:54PM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > > But, they can't be members of the board without an election. > > Just want to point out that, yes, they can be - please read the Foundation > by-laws. The board can change the size of the board at will, and nominate > members at will. Which is clearly a hole in the democratic process, the right thing to do would be to fix the bylaws, not jump on the loophole as a justification. > The referendum process was not done because it was necessary, it was done to > understand the will of the membership (and delegate the decision to them). And to stay in the spirit of that process you should have avoided this last step. Honnestly this look very weird from the outside, the board looks like contradicting itself on every occasion, provides no information about the day to day business (or I missed the minutes since the bunch posted for March), and the only thing which justify not working by delegation is that most of the operation need to be done in secrecy. That's honnestly not the kind of board process we expected when the bylaws were written, Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat http://redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Tue Jun 6 05:06:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46C313B09F1 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 05:06:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27265-04 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 05:06:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8E9D23B0A35 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 05:06:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 26140 invoked by uid 0); 6 Jun 2006 09:06:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.34]) (83.42.200.49) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 09:06:03 +0000 From: Quim Gil To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-W8w3n7YDvxZf85v0s8N9" Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 11:06:02 +0200 Message-Id: <1149584763.5220.69.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.083 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.439, BAYES_00=-2.599, TW_JR=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.083 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 09:06:34 -0000 --=-W8w3n7YDvxZf85v0s8N9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El dl 05 de 06 del 2006 a les 15:42 +0200, en/na Anne =C3=98stergaard va escriure: > The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the > board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germ=C3=A1n Po=C3=B3-Caama=C3= =B1o.=20 I wasn't in the board when this issue was discussed, and as a new board board I'm unsure what should I do now if I disagree. Transparency is always a good path, I guess.=20 - Consequent with the past Increasing now the board size seems inappropriate after the referendum discussions and result and without having made an extended use of asking explicitly for help and delegating within the GNOME community. - Size is not the problem We seem to agree that the problem is not the size of the board but the current circumstances that make many board members have less time than expected. If size is not the problem, the enlargement is probably not the solution. It's like having unsatisfactory sexual live and going to the doctor to enlarge your breast or your penis. At the beginning it might look like a change and a progress, but the root of the problem is still there, and possibly larger now. - Delegating and collaborating with people out of the board There was a lot of discussion about the few time required to be a good board member, let things happen, stay out of the way... We simply need to put in practice all that. For instance, invite someone to pick the Boston Yellow Pages, make some calls and come up with 3 companies we could hire for our accountancy and representation. Delegations like this might originate some crisis situations but since we are already in a crisis situation... what can we loose? And what can we learn. Adding 2 people to the board might be methadone to keep the problem of not sharing and delegating with less pain. - Too busy to delegate and hire We know the paradox of not having time to delegate or hire, making an overwhelming situation deeper. A solution is to stop the machine consciously (many times is already stopped, unconsciously) and concentrate in delegating. An intermediate option is simply do less things or not letting new tasks start before the delegation/hiring problem is solved. We missed something because of this? Yes, but how many thing are we missing by not delegating/hiring. - The quest of finding the magic full time profile =20 No wonder we didn't find the magic profile: a yin accountant & administrator + a yang fundraiser + based in Boston + competent and available + of course familiar with free software and GNOME (discussed at http://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/2006-April/msg00023.html ). = It is probably better and easier to hire the services of a mercenary busine= ss representation based in Boston + hiring one or more part time people we = know and trust, based wherever and able to travel when it's needed.=20 - Boston (Massachusetts, USA) It is a danger to have a board elected with candidates from everywhere that needs to have at least one member in a specific city: Boston. What if jrb wasn't elected, didn't want to renew or decides to leave some day? This is per se a reason to hire the services of a company (something theoretically more stable than an individual) and visit them every three months, either picking the Boston metro or a flight.=20 - Conclusion The board is overwhelmed and needs help. The fact that the board didn't share the discussion since the earliest stage but came up with a pre-conclusion is, I think, already a symptom of how overwhelmed the board members are and how far we all still are from opening the board and start sharing and delegating with the GNOME community. Many tasks the board can't delegate easily are related to services that can be hired. Let's concentrate on that, while we review publicly the list of priorities and see who can help on what inside / outside the board. Of course nothing of this has to do with the capabilities of Behdad and Germ=C3=A1n, who could be without doubt good board members. It has not to d= o either with the fact that I joined the board as a first patch for this problem. I had these opinions months ago, when I couldn't imagine I would join the board during this year. --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-W8w3n7YDvxZf85v0s8N9 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEhUV6BEzHYk6x634RAlOGAJ468PjA5ogEPfJt4Syb7QDks2mQzACcD/Dt 7SRSwIcbyQMxQ9z9jCLmlLE= =96/Y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-W8w3n7YDvxZf85v0s8N9-- From dneary@free.fr Tue Jun 6 06:16:02 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACD933B0A9E for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 06:16:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06395-09 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 06:16:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp6.wanadoo.fr (smtp6.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.25]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5360F3B0ACF for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 06:15:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf0606.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 398661C00282; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 12:15:12 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060606101512236.398661C00282@mwinf0606.orange.fr Message-ID: <448555B5.5030106@free.fr> Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:15:17 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Quim Gil References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149584763.5220.69.camel@localhost> In-Reply-To: <1149584763.5220.69.camel@localhost> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.54 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, TW_JR=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.54 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 10:16:03 -0000 Hi, Quim Gil wrote: > El dl 05 de 06 del 2006 a les 15:42 +0200, en/na Anne Østergaard va > escriure: > >> The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the >> board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño. > > I wasn't in the board when this issue was discussed, and as a new board > board I'm unsure what should I do now if I disagree. Transparency is > always a good path, I guess. Yes - just disagree. There is/was not unanimity on this point. As Jeff's said, he's against changing. Luis was also. I was the first one to propose increasing the board size in February when we were having trouble coping, but am now unsure, and was absent from the board meeting where it was discussed. > - Boston (Massachusetts, USA) > > It is a danger to have a board elected with candidates from everywhere > that needs to have at least one member in a specific city: Boston. What > if jrb wasn't elected, didn't want to renew or decides to leave some > day? This is per se a reason to hire the services of a company > (something theoretically more stable than an individual) and visit them > every three months, either picking the Boston metro or a flight. I'm unsure what the consequences would be for the foundation if none of the board was in or from the US. I'm not sure there would be any. The insistence on a Boston rep is more convenience than necessity - everyone knows how much more quickly things can go when you need something off someone, and you drop by to meet them face to face. Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From jdub@waugh.id.au Tue Jun 6 06:33:53 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE7743B00CF for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 06:33:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09584-02 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 06:33:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE51F3B0084 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 06:33:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (ppp121-112.static.internode.on.net [150.101.121.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9F223D876 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 20:33:50 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0FA6D3F9C; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 20:33:45 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 20:33:45 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> Reply-By: Fri Jun 9 20:19:56 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 20:19:57 up 4 days, 20:11, 10 users, load average: 0.04, 0.10, 0.03 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.017, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 10:33:53 -0000 > > Just want to point out that, yes, they can be - please read the > > Foundation by-laws. The board can change the size of the board at will, > > and nominate members at will. > > Which is clearly a hole in the democratic process, the right thing to do > would be to fix the bylaws, not jump on the loophole as a justification. Daniel, you misunderstand - I'm not here to justify the loophole, as I do not agree with the proposal in the first place! :-) There are a bunch of things I think we could fix in the bylaws (but I may feel that way simply because they are substantially different from the law and practices that I am used to in Australia). I do think the ability for the board to redefine its size at will is not appropriate. That said, the previous decision to reduce the board to seven members was discussed on the list and delegated to the membership - fully transparent. The board *absolutely* needs the ability to nominate members when a position is vacant. It should not require an election process to execute that - if the (elected) board is not trusted to fill vacant positions, then we have much bigger problems. Considering the current state of affairs, I think it's wholly appropriate that the board is nominating Quim Gil (next in line from previous election results) to fill the position left vacant by Luis' resignation, but I don't believe it's appropriate or necessary for the board to increase the number of directors (with or without referendum, but to answer your charges, mostly without) at this stage. > and the only thing which justify not working by delegation is that most of > the operation need to be done in secrecy. I don't believe anyone has cited 'secrecy', though the word 'private' has come up. Ultimately the workings and decision of the board is not secret at all, but there are activities that require a certain amount of privacy or sensitivity. The process of dealing with employees, and the handling of the accounts (handling, not reporting) are good examples. I don't think this is even remotely controversial - anyone who has participated in the running of a non-profit organisation (including you, Daniel) would be well aware of this kind of balancing. If the board is not appropriately reporting its activities, then any member should feel absolutely comfortable to ask questions and make demands. But I would ask that those questions and demands be specific and reasonable. :-) - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ "It's never been, 'We're doing this for the good of society.' It's always been us taking an intellectual pride in putting out a good product - and making money. If putting a computer on every desktop and in every home didn't make money, we wouldn't do it." - Microserfs From veillard@redhat.com Tue Jun 6 07:33:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 352943B00E0 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16106-09 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [66.187.233.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA3A63B00B4 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k56BXoEq003691 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:50 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (devserv.devel.redhat.com [172.16.58.1]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k56BXonQ013466 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:50 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k56BXo7G005351 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:50 -0400 Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11/Submit) id k56BXnfY005349 for foundation-list@gnome.org; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:49 -0400 Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:49 -0400 From: Daniel Veillard To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060606113349.GW16734@redhat.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.367 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.003, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, TW_BX=0.077, TW_IB=0.077, TW_PM=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.367 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 11:33:52 -0000 On Tue, Jun 06, 2006 at 08:33:45PM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > Considering the current state of affairs, I think it's wholly appropriate > that the board is nominating Quim Gil (next in line from previous election > results) to fill the position left vacant by Luis' resignation, but I don't yes, agreed, it's defining a new practice, but this sounds sane as long as that person is still okay with this. > believe it's appropriate or necessary for the board to increase the number > of directors (with or without referendum, but to answer your charges, mostly > without) at this stage. I can't juge on the 'necessary', but I think it's inappropriate too. > > and the only thing which justify not working by delegation is that most of > > the operation need to be done in secrecy. > > I don't believe anyone has cited 'secrecy', though the word 'private' has > come up. Ultimately the workings and decision of the board is not secret at > all, but there are activities that require a certain amount of privacy or > sensitivity. The process of dealing with employees, and the handling of the > accounts (handling, not reporting) are good examples. I don't think this is > even remotely controversial - anyone who has participated in the running of > a non-profit organisation (including you, Daniel) would be well aware of > this kind of balancing. To have balance one need one opposite side, a perceived one. Sure some details can't be shared, as you know I'm well aware of that, BUT I also always promoted being as public as possible with issues. Currently the board work is opaque, which would be fine if the few signals emitted were good, but 'we are overhelmed we need to reverse to some extend a voted decision' is not a good signal. > If the board is not appropriately reporting its activities, then any member The board is not reporting its activities in a timely fashion. > should feel absolutely comfortable to ask questions and make demands. But I > would ask that those questions and demands be specific and reasonable. :-) Okay, what happen at the board meetings since March, time of last published minutes I could find. I assume it's reasonable request to at least know if you are meeting, and what are the problems/questions you are facing with the details you can share. It then helps getting a sense of how much work need to be done you can't cope with and hence how necessary increasing the board size again really is. I hope my reaction can be understood, and my request not unreasonnable, but really that request should not need to be done, this should be normal process, Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat http://redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From dneary@free.fr Tue Jun 6 08:04:29 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5E283B0141 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:04:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19256-08 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:04:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp9.wanadoo.fr (smtp9.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D9443B008B for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:04:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf0904.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 495E2240019C; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:04:26 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060606120426300.495E2240019C@mwinf0904.orange.fr Message-ID: <44856F50.4000402@free.fr> Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 14:04:32 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: veillard@redhat.com References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606113349.GW16734@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: <20060606113349.GW16734@redhat.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Board meetings since March (was: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:04:30 -0000 Hi, Daniel Veillard wrote: > Okay, what happen at the board meetings since March, time of last published > minutes I could find. I assume it's reasonable request to at least know if > you are meeting, and what are the problems/questions you are facing with > the details you can share. It then helps getting a sense of how much work > need to be done you can't cope with and hence how necessary increasing the > board size again really is. We met on the following dates since the beginning of March: March 1st (minutes sent to foundation-list) March 15th (minutes sent to foundation-list) March 22nd (minutes sent to foundation-list) April 5th April 26th May 17th We also had 2 advisory board meetings (but minutes from those have typically not gone to foundation-list): April 12th May 31st There was a scheduled meeting on the 10th of May which was canceled because of technical problems. The next board meeting is scheduled for tomorrow, June 7th. The minutes for the April 5th and May 17th meetings need to be sanitised for board private issues and sent to the list. We didn't have any phone call for the April 26th meeting, and so the only minutes we have are an IRC log, which again needs to be summarised and sanitised for board privacy issues. The agendas for all meetings should also be reviewed for privacy and confidentiality issues, and sent to the list. I've been sending the agendas to board-list 48 hours before the meeting for comments, and preparing a private/public agenda in the wiki and for the mailing list has proved more effort than I have available for that, and I must admit that it hasn't been a high priority. As an ex board member, you have read-only access to the board wiki pages - would you like to take on this task and help me out? Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From murrayc@murrayc.com Tue Jun 6 08:23:16 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 061193B0186 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:23:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20602-02 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:23:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail3.sd.dreamhost.com (webmail3.sd.dreamhost.com [64.111.100.15]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BC2E3B00B4 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:23:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.murrayc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by webmail3.sd.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E13A714179; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 05:23:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 194.138.18.132 (proxying for unknown) (SquirrelMail authenticated user murrayc@murrayc.com) by webmail.murrayc.com with HTTP; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:23:12 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <60481.194.138.18.132.1149596592.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> In-Reply-To: <44856F50.4000402@free.fr> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606113349.GW16734@redhat.com> <44856F50.4000402@free.fr> Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:23:12 +0200 (CEST) From: "Murray Cumming" To: "Dave Neary" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.548 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.051, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.548 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, veillard@redhat.com Subject: Re: Board meetings since March (was: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:23:16 -0000 > > Hi, > > Daniel Veillard wrote: >> Okay, what happen at the board meetings since March, time of last >> published >> minutes I could find. I assume it's reasonable request to at least know >> if >> you are meeting, and what are the problems/questions you are facing with >> the details you can share. It then helps getting a sense of how much >> work >> need to be done you can't cope with and hence how necessary increasing >> the >> board size again really is. > > We met on the following dates since the beginning of March: > > March 1st (minutes sent to foundation-list) > March 15th (minutes sent to foundation-list) > March 22nd (minutes sent to foundation-list) > April 5th > April 26th > May 17th It really makes life easier if these are added to the list here: http://live.gnome.org/FoundationBoardPublic#head-6903d3d78a8eb091678548773e79000fb5c10292 (Although it doesn't need to be a board member that does that. I blame me.) > We also had 2 advisory board meetings (but minutes from those have > typically not gone to foundation-list): > April 12th > May 31st > > There was a scheduled meeting on the 10th of May which was canceled > because of technical problems. The next board meeting is scheduled for > tomorrow, June 7th. > > The minutes for the April 5th and May 17th meetings need to be sanitised > for board private issues and sent to the list. We didn't have any phone > call for the April 26th meeting, and so the only minutes we have are an > IRC log, which again needs to be summarised and sanitised for board > privacy issues. The agendas for all meetings should also be reviewed for > privacy and confidentiality issues, and sent to the list. > > I've been sending the agendas to board-list 48 hours before the meeting > for comments, and preparing a private/public agenda in the wiki and for > the mailing list has proved more effort than I have available for that, > and I must admit that it hasn't been a high priority. > > As an ex board member, you have read-only access to the board wiki pages > - would you like to take on this task and help me out? I believe everyone has write access to the public pages. Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From veillard@redhat.com Tue Jun 6 08:59:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EE633B00CF for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22495-08 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [66.187.233.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50D123B00B9 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k56Cxdju004443; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:39 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (devserv.devel.redhat.com [172.16.58.1]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k56CxdoC031823; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:39 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k56Cxdrh011349; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:39 -0400 Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11/Submit) id k56Cxdaq011347; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:39 -0400 Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:39 -0400 From: Daniel Veillard To: Dave Neary Message-ID: <20060606125938.GX16734@redhat.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606113349.GW16734@redhat.com> <44856F50.4000402@free.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <44856F50.4000402@free.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.367 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.003, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, TW_BX=0.077, TW_IB=0.077, TW_PM=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.367 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Board meetings since March (was: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:59:45 -0000 On Tue, Jun 06, 2006 at 02:04:32PM +0200, Dave Neary wrote: > The minutes for the April 5th and May 17th meetings need to be sanitised > for board private issues and sent to the list. We didn't have any phone It takes 2 months ? News from 2 months ago are usually not that useful. > call for the April 26th meeting, and so the only minutes we have are an > IRC log, which again needs to be summarised and sanitised for board > privacy issues. The agendas for all meetings should also be reviewed for > privacy and confidentiality issues, and sent to the list. You don't need the agenda to be sent, if you send the minutes in a timely fashion, then people can react if you forgot something. > I've been sending the agendas to board-list 48 hours before the meeting That's nice, but board only, not public awareness, that should make writing minutes even easier. > for comments, and preparing a private/public agenda in the wiki and for > the mailing list has proved more effort than I have available for that, > and I must admit that it hasn't been a high priority. Stuff in the wiki has no persistance, contrary to mail archive, requires web access, and polling or page subscription to monitor state changes. > As an ex board member, you have read-only access to the board wiki pages > - would you like to take on this task and help me out? I don't have much time either, and I disagree with using the Wiki as the way to reach out the community. I think you're not in a very good position to state there isn't enough cycles to run those kind of task, I argued that going from 11 to 7 would be a serious problem, and it's not a matter of having a paid person to do them, the board ought to have the cycles to push the minutes from meeting in a timely fashion delegating this can just lead to more delays and less accuracy. It takes 20, 30mn at worse to edit and post minutes, every 2 weeks. If people on the board don't have that kind of time to offer, then it's a real problem, the only other option would be if current board people didn't think board minutes are important, but in that case they should be frank about this and state it I would not expect or request them. Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat http://redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From dneary@free.fr Tue Jun 6 09:43:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DE4A3B012C for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 09:43:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25372-04 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 09:43:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 642B23B00AB for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 09:43:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf1101.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 3E3B11C0004D; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:43:03 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060606134303255.3E3B11C0004D@mwinf1101.orange.fr Message-ID: <4485866C.5080903@free.fr> Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 15:43:08 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: veillard@redhat.com References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606113349.GW16734@redhat.com> <44856F50.4000402@free.fr> <20060606125938.GX16734@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: <20060606125938.GX16734@redhat.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Board meetings since March X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 13:43:07 -0000 Hi, Daniel Veillard wrote: > On Tue, Jun 06, 2006 at 02:04:32PM +0200, Dave Neary wrote: >> As an ex board member, you have read-only access to the board wiki pages >> - would you like to take on this task and help me out? > > I don't have much time either, and I disagree with using the Wiki as the > way to reach out the community. The private board pages are as good a way as any to prepare an agenda and allow people to edit it easily. Taking that information and splitting it into public/private parts and sending it onto a mailing list is the task I was thinking of. > I think you're not in a very good position to state there isn't enough cycles > to run those kind of task, I argued that going from 11 to 7 would be a serious > problem, and it's not a matter of having a paid person to do them, the board > ought to have the cycles to push the minutes from meeting in a timely fashion > delegating this can just lead to more delays and less accuracy. It takes 20, > 30mn at worse to edit and post minutes, every 2 weeks. If people on the > board don't have that kind of time to offer, then it's a real problem, the > only other option would be if current board people didn't think board minutes > are important, but in that case they should be frank about this and state it > I would not expect or request them. Of course this task is important, and of course one person can take care of it in under an hour after each meeting (half an hour to tidy up notes, and half an hour to take into consideration comments and mail to the list a couple of days later). As I said, the breakage is happening between the preparation of the minutes (which are happening in a timely manner, usually straight after the meeting) and the sending of public minutes to foundation-list a couple of days later. You always did a great job sending out the public minutes. This year, we have not done as good a job. But there is no way I'm saying that increasing the size of the board will help us do a better job - sending minutes out is, and has always been, the job of the secretary - it's not really something that can be shared unless he/she asks someone else to take care of it, or is absent from a meeting. Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From murrayc@murrayc.com Tue Jun 6 16:17:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD4943B0236 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 16:17:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19265-05 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 16:17:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swarthymail-a4.dreamhost.com (mailbigip.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.5]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0753D3B0B04 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 16:17:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from noname (p5497CD77.dip.t-dialin.net [84.151.205.119]) by swarthymail-a4.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92901129A8C; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 13:17:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Murray Cumming To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 22:17:51 +0200 Message-Id: <1149625071.6086.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.06 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.341, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_NJABL_PROXY=0.721, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SOCKS=2.159] X-Spam-Score: -1.06 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 20:17:57 -0000 Here's a positive reply, just so you don't think it's all negative. I'll never figure out how to request a representative sample of replies while also avoiding too many replies. I trust the board to do this and to know if they need to do it, and I have confidence in the proposed new members. I'd prefer delegation, but even the act of delegation requires suitable chunks of time that they might not have right now. If they can't do that quickly then they need to get on and do this now. I supported the reduced-size referendum because I think the board needs to make faster decisions instead of pondering every possibility until the chances have gone by. So well done. If I could set a condition for my Yes, it would be that the new board members would obsessively care for the Foundation's public wiki pages and keep people informed of possible meetings agendas and minutes of completed meetings. You do quite a lot and people should know about it. You might even start referring to not-public-yet agenda items by codenames if necessary, just so we have an idea of how much you are working on. -- Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From murrayc@murrayc.com Wed Jun 7 15:43:39 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBDAC3B01E8 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 15:43:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09531-04 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 15:43:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swarthymail-a1.dreamhost.com (mailbigip.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.5]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AD613B01BA for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 15:43:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from noname (p5497CB1E.dip.t-dialin.net [84.151.203.30]) by swarthymail-a1.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C133D8FE77; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 12:43:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Murray Cumming To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149170374.6894.73.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <1149170374.6894.73.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 21:43:33 +0200 Message-Id: <1149709413.5916.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.98 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.395, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.558, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.456] X-Spam-Score: -0.98 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 19:43:40 -0000 On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 15:59 +0200, Anne Østergaard wrote: > > > Realistically, this plans needs to be written by you. Others will > help you > > > with it, but you need to create it and drive it. [snip] > I will work with the whole of the women in FLOSS community as well as > with the persons who wrote the FLOSSPOLS reports and others who have > written scientific reports and with those of you who are interested. Thanks, Anne. I look forward to reading your suggestions. -- Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From dneary@free.fr Thu Jun 8 17:35:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E6BD3B05F8 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 17:35:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07181-03 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 17:35:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp3-g19.free.fr (smtp3-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.29]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A4A23B000E for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 17:35:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp3-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D47949075; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 23:35:36 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <44889604.7000405@free.fr> Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:26:28 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060521) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alan Cox References: <1147629160.44676e6870cb6@imp1-g19.free.fr> <1147699940.26686.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1147699539.4468815380ca5@imp1-g19.free.fr> <1147702053.26686.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <1147702053.26686.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------040605040600010104040604" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Boilerplate trademark agreement for commercial exploitation X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 21:35:40 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040605040600010104040604 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I was under the impression that I had sent this to the list a long time ago, but I can't find it in the archives, so here, for archival purposes, is the merchandising trademark agreement in .odt - all comments, as usual, are welcome. I'll take the opportunity to thank Dom Lachowitz, who has agreed to take over maintaining the document - I bow to his superior knowledge, and thank him very much for reminding us last week that we should be delegating more ;-) Cheers, Dave. Alan Cox wrote: > On Llu, 2006-05-15 at 15:25 +0200, Dave Neary wrote: >> I can certainly post a copy in ODT later in the week which gets converted into >> .doc every time we need to go to the lawyers... I won't always have the time to >> do it promptly, though. >> >> I will note that there are several high-quality free software programmes that >> can read and write the bits of the .doc format which are important for lawyers. > > > - There are open standards, and GNOME is an open standards based body > - A ".doc" file may render in many different ways, especialy if it > contains macros. Which is definitive, the contract as rendered by MS > Word or by Abiword or by OpenOffice ? > > Alan > > > -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France --------------040605040600010104040604 Content-Type: application/vnd.oasis.opendocument.text; name="GNOME merchandising contract.odt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="GNOME merchandising contract.odt" UEsDBBQAAAAAAMCpyDRexjIMJwAAACcAAAAIAAAAbWltZXR5cGVhcHBsaWNhdGlvbi92bmQu b2FzaXMub3BlbmRvY3VtZW50LnRleHRQSwMEFAAAAAAAwKnINAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABoAAABD b25maWd1cmF0aW9uczIvc3RhdHVzYmFyL1BLAwQUAAgACADAqcg0AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAJwAA AENvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb25zMi9hY2NlbGVyYXRvci9jdXJyZW50LnhtbAMAUEsHCAAAAAACAAAA AAAAAFBLAwQUAAAAAADAqcg0AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGAAAAENvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb25zMi9mbG9h dGVyL1BLAwQUAAAAAADAqcg0AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGgAAAENvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb25zMi9wb3B1 cG1lbnUvUEsDBBQAAAAAAMCpyDQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAcAAAAQ29uZmlndXJhdGlvbnMyL3By b2dyZXNzYmFyL1BLAwQUAAAAAADAqcg0AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGAAAAENvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb25z 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[127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD6B93B031B for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 18:56:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10924-10 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 18:56:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 297323B0450 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 18:56:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 18926 invoked from network); 8 Jun 2006 22:56:39 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?164.99.120.169?) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 8 Jun 2006 22:56:39 -0000 From: Federico Mena Quintero To: foundation-list@gnome.org, GNOME Foundation Board Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 17:52:27 -0500 Message-Id: <1149807147.30645.105.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.645 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.905, BAYES_20=-0.74] X-Spam-Score: -1.645 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Required: Administrator for the Foundation X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 22:56:44 -0000 Hi, The GNOME Foundation is in need of a part-time administrator based in the USA. Our administrator will: 1. Collect, sort and summarise mail for the Board. 2. Handle bills in a timely manner. 3. Prepare checks for the Board to sign. 4. Track donations and fees. 5. Maintain a list of Board contacts. 6. Send out Friends of GNOME gifts to donors. 7. Keep the boards files in order, and sending expenses (when appropriate) to the accountant. 8. Handle the purchase and preparation of materials for tradeshows. 9. Attend board meetings bi-weekly as appropriate, and prepare status updates. 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. 11. There is no number 11. Proximity to Boston, MA is very desirable, though not mandatory. Please send your CV/resume in plain text to board-list@gnome.org. Federico From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Thu Jun 8 19:27:43 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E05373B019F for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 19:27:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12544-06 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 19:27:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7D04E3B03EC for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 19:27:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 11101 invoked by uid 0); 8 Jun 2006 23:27:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.34]) (83.55.174.28) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:27:37 +0000 From: Quim Gil To: Federico Mena Quintero In-Reply-To: <1149807147.30645.105.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> References: <1149807147.30645.105.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-g90YM+JWhOUtDEnlibmx" Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 01:27:36 +0200 Message-Id: <1149809257.5200.57.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=1.200, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:27:43 -0000 --=-g90YM+JWhOUtDEnlibmx Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Help the board (and the whole GNOME Foundation) spreading this profile or this link: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/2006-June/msg00077.html It is crystal clear that the board members will be much alleviated the day we have an efficient administrator in control of all the numbers and legal stuff.=20 El dj 08 de 06 del 2006 a les 17:52 -0500, en/na Federico Mena Quintero va escriure: > Hi, >=20 > The GNOME Foundation is in need of a part-time administrator based in > the USA. Our administrator will: >=20 > 1. Collect, sort and summarise mail for the Board. > 2. Handle bills in a timely manner. > 3. Prepare checks for the Board to sign. > 4. Track donations and fees. > 5. Maintain a list of Board contacts. > 6. Send out Friends of GNOME gifts to donors. > 7. Keep the boards files in order, and sending expenses (when=20 > appropriate) to the accountant. > 8. Handle the purchase and preparation of materials for tradeshows. > 9. Attend board meetings bi-weekly as appropriate, and prepare=20 > status updates. > 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. > 11. There is no number 11. >=20 > Proximity to Boston, MA is very desirable, though not mandatory. >=20 > Please send your CV/resume in plain text to board-list@gnome.org. >=20 > Federico >=20 > _______________________________________________ > foundation-list mailing list > foundation-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list >=20 --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-g90YM+JWhOUtDEnlibmx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEiLJoBEzHYk6x634RArJ6AJsGvNjgobbIa1GuEtIGYilkVS3pngCgrcR4 DwICtONuTn7adRgOQx5v+mo= =dz/Q -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-g90YM+JWhOUtDEnlibmx-- From anne@oestergaard.nu Fri Jun 9 06:20:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC9133B0099 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 06:20:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14331-03 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 06:20:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero0.cybercity.dk (cicero0.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.52]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22ECE3B0093 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 06:20:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero0.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC255678493 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 12:20:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 6AA8774F9A5 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 12:20:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 24532 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 10:20:46 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 10:20:46 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Federico Mena Quintero In-Reply-To: <1149807147.30645.105.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> References: <1149807147.30645.105.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 12:20:45 +0200 Message-Id: <1149848445.4453.36.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.538 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.061, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.538 X-Spam-Level: Cc: GNOME Foundation Board , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 10:20:54 -0000 tor, 08 06 2006 kl. 17:52 -0500, skrev Federico Mena Quintero: > Hi, > > The GNOME Foundation is in need of a part-time administrator based in > the USA. Our administrator will: > > 1. Collect, sort and summarise mail for the Board. > 2. Handle bills in a timely manner. > 3. Prepare checks for the Board to sign. > 4. Track donations and fees. > 5. Maintain a list of Board contacts. > 6. Send out Friends of GNOME gifts to donors. > 7. Keep the boards files in order, and sending expenses (when > appropriate) to the accountant. > 8. Handle the purchase and preparation of materials for tradeshows. > 9. Attend board meetings bi-weekly as appropriate, and prepare > status updates. > 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. > 11. There is no number 11. > > Proximity to Boston, MA is very desirable, though not mandatory. > > Please send your CV/resume in plain text to board-list@gnome.org. Don't forget to send a coverletter that explains why you qualify for this position. Anne From anne@oestergaard.nu Fri Jun 9 09:33:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70A3E3B029F for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 09:33:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27640-06 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 09:33:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F2963B0003 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 09:33:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user3.cybercity.dk (user3.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.36]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id F411F245C35 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 15:33:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user3.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id CAC1C93E3E for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 15:33:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 26273 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 13:33:41 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 13:33:41 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 15:33:39 +0200 Message-Id: <1149860019.4453.144.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.539 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.060, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.539 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 13:33:45 -0000 man, 05 06 2006 kl. 15:42 +0200, skrev Anne Østergaard: > Hello all GNOME Foundation Members, > > About the size of the present board. > > The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the > board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño. > > Background: > Not so long ago we had a Reducing Board Size Referendum > > "Should the board size be reduced from its current 11 directors to 7 > directors?" > > The Referendum Results: > > 188 members voted for this referendum. The repartition of the votes is: > > yes (117 votes) > no (70 votes) > blank votes: 1 > > > The board is at the moment of the opinion that a GNOME Board of 7 > persons should normally work and be enough, provided that we have a > staff person who can take part of the work load. > > Also at present a couple of the 7 board members have been given > additional responsibilities at their ordinary work places and/or > enlarged their family so they are pressed for time for "heavy" board > work. > > Since the board has not yet hired anybody (we are in the process of > doing so), the board would suggest to you that for the remaining of this > year, we ask Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño to join the board. > > They are both happy and willing to join the board, but under the > condition that there is not severe objections from the GNOME Foundation > Members. > > I think that I need not tell you, that the two candidates in question > are highly respected for their long time great contributions to the > GNOME project and the GNOME community spirit. > > Being responsible for having proposed this temporary compromise > solution, I naturally hope for your blessings. > > Please react within 10 days if you have problems with enlarging the > board by inviting Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño to join the > GNOME Board of Directors for the rest of 2006. > I think I made a mistake by only asking those having a problem with a temporary enlargement of the board till the end of the year. As we have not heard from the members would think this was quite acceptable, the result of the consultation would tend to be negative. This is logic. Should the board conclude that the community is against- or do we have lots of members who says yes or stay neutral? Please let's have your reaction before June 11th. Best wishes Anne PS The board is putting great efforts into delegating tasks as we know that there are many members eager to give a hand. In fact we almost always get a yes when we ask. From federico@ximian.com Fri Jun 9 10:42:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3F2C3B10A5 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 10:42:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31714-09 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 10:42:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E2953B0290 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 10:42:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 19596 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 14:42:29 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO 164-99-120-73.boston.ximian.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 14:42:29 -0000 From: Federico Mena Quintero To: foundation-list@gnome.org, foundation-announce@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 09:38:17 -0500 Message-Id: <1149863897.3733.5.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Questions for deployments of GNOME X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 14:42:33 -0000 Are you a deployment of GNOME? Are you like the City of Largo, Florida, or like the districts of Extremadura and Andalucía in Spain, who have big installations of machines running GNOME? At the GNOME Foundation we are conducting a little, informal study of how we can make your lives easier. If you are in charge of the technical part of a GNOME deployment, we would greatly appreciate it if you could answer the questions here: http://primates.ximian.com/~federico/news-2006-06.html#questions-for-deployments Please mail your replies to federico@gnu.org. A summary of the replies will be published during GUADEC this year. Thank you! Federico From domlachowicz@gmail.com Fri Jun 9 11:31:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BFA23B0222 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:31:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02652-02 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:31:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.207]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 965CA3B0290 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:31:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so654060wxd for ; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 08:31:53 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ZlrLXpqL60K1jk8gw3EPmgUEmZUs7iRuScIMEJ15le+bAITYJXZ6VK5qOBdKr99XGsf9iHLtP1cLzAAAAcHKc0zZ+AP0nnOQt8DqXZ/7MjFh/QeEqr33wBOS/t9ZUxPURaKYN9lUQHsv4APUxHzLnEa0GI+xJCtCeppE+Dy7OUg= Received: by 10.70.73.15 with SMTP id v15mr3606926wxa; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 08:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.116.12 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 08:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2672cf4d0606090831h34982de3u16db61e5308242ec@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:31:53 -0400 From: "Dominic Lachowicz" To: "=?UTF-8?Q?Anne_=C3=98stergaard?=" In-Reply-To: <1149860019.4453.144.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149860019.4453.144.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.351 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_BASE64_NO_NAME=0.224, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.351 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 15:31:56 -0000 SGkgQW5uZSwKCj4gPiBJIHRoaW5rIHRoYXQgSSBuZWVkIG5vdCB0ZWxsIHlvdSwgdGhhdCB0aGUg dHdvIGNhbmRpZGF0ZXMgaW4gcXVlc3Rpb24KPiA+IGFyZSBoaWdobHkgcmVzcGVjdGVkIGZvciB0 aGVpciBsb25nIHRpbWUgZ3JlYXQgY29udHJpYnV0aW9ucyB0byB0aGUKPiA+IEdOT01FIHByb2pl Y3QgYW5kIHRoZSBHTk9NRSBjb21tdW5pdHkgc3Bpcml0Lgo+ID4KPiA+IEJlaW5nIHJlc3BvbnNp YmxlIGZvciBoYXZpbmcgcHJvcG9zZWQgdGhpcyB0ZW1wb3JhcnkgY29tcHJvbWlzZQo+ID4gc29s dXRpb24sIEkgbmF0dXJhbGx5IGhvcGUgZm9yIHlvdXIgYmxlc3NpbmdzLgo+ID4KPiA+IFBsZWFz ZSByZWFjdCB3aXRoaW4gMTAgZGF5cyBpZiB5b3UgaGF2ZSBwcm9ibGVtcyB3aXRoIGVubGFyZ2lu ZyB0aGUKPiA+IGJvYXJkIGJ5IGludml0aW5nIEJlaGRhZCBFc2ZhaGJvZCBhbmQgR2VybcOhbiBQ b8OzLUNhYW1hw7FvIHRvIGpvaW4gdGhlCj4gPiBHTk9NRSBCb2FyZCBvZiBEaXJlY3RvcnMgZm9y IHRoZSByZXN0IG9mIDIwMDYuCgpbc25pcF0KCj4gUFMgVGhlIGJvYXJkIGlzIHB1dHRpbmcgZ3Jl YXQgZWZmb3J0cyBpbnRvIGRlbGVnYXRpbmcgdGFza3MgYXMgd2Uga25vdwo+IHRoYXQgdGhlcmUg YXJlIG1hbnkgbWVtYmVycyBlYWdlciB0byBnaXZlIGEgaGFuZC4gSW4gZmFjdCB3ZSBhbG1vc3QK PiBhbHdheXMgZ2V0IGEgeWVzIHdoZW4gd2UgYXNrLgoKSSBhcHByZWNpYXRlIHRoZSBib2FyZCdz IGVmZm9ydHMsIGhhcmQgd29yaywgYW5kIGRlZGljYXRpb24uIEkgYXBwbGF1ZAp0aGUgYm9hcmQn cyByZWNlbnQgcmVzb2x2ZSB0byBkZWxlZ2F0ZSBtb3JlIHRoaW5ncywgaW5jbHVkaW5nCmRlbGVn YXRpbmcgdGhlIFRNIGRvY3VtZW50IHRvIG1lLiBJIGhvcGUgbm90IHRvIGRpc2FwcG9pbnQgeW91 LgoKSG93ZXZlciwgSSBzdGlsbCBoYXZlbid0IGhlYXJkIGEgZ29vZCBleHBsYW5hdGlvbiBhcyB0 byAqd2h5KiB0aGUKYm9hcmQgbmVlZHMgbW9yZSBtZW1iZXJzIHRvIGZ1bGZpbGwgaXRzIGR1dGll cy4gT3Igd2h5IDIgaXMgdGhlIG1hZ2ljCm51bWJlci4gT3Igd2h5IHRoZSBuZXcgcG9zaXRpb25z IHdvdWxkIG9ubHkgYmUgdGVtcG9yYXJ5LiBXaGF0CnByb2JsZW1zIGlzIHRoZSBib2FyZCBmYWNp bmcgdGhhdCBjYW5ub3QgYmUgaGFuZGxlZCBieSB0aGUgY3VycmVudAptZW1iZXJzIHBsdXMgZGVs ZWdhdGlvbiBhcyBhcHByb3ByaWF0ZT8gT3IgaWYgY2VydGFpbiBtZW1iZXJzIGNhbid0Cm1lZXQg dGhlaXIgb2JsaWdhdGlvbnMgZHVlIHRvIG91dHNpZGUgb3IgZnV0dXJlIGNvbW1pdHRtZW50cyAo YXMgd2FzCkx1aXMnIGNhc2UgcmVjZW50bHkpIC0gb3Zlci1xdWFsaWZpZWQgYW5kIHBhc3Npb25h dGUgYXMgdGhleSBhcmUgLSAgaXMKdGhlIGNvcnJlY3Qgc29sdXRpb24gdG8gcmVzaWduIGFuZCBs ZXQgb3RoZXIgcGVvcGxlIHJlcGxhY2UgdGhlbT8KCkluIG15IG9waW5pb24sIHlvdSd2ZSBhc2tl ZCB1cyB0byB2b2ljZSBhbiBvcGluaW9uIHdpdGhvdXQgcHJlc2VudGluZwppbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBu ZWNlc3NhcnkgdG8gZm9ybWluZyBhIHF1YWxpZmllZCBvcGluaW9uLiBUaGlzIGlzIG1hZGUKZXZl biBtb3JlIGRpZmZpY3VsdCAoSU1PLCBvZiBjb3Vyc2UpIHNpbmNlIG5vIGJvYXJkIG1lZXRpbmcg bWludXRlcwpoYXZlIGJlZW4gcmVsZWFzZWQgc2luY2UgTWFyY2ggMjIsIHdoaWNoIGlzIGZhc3Qg YXBwcm9hY2hpbmcgMyBtb250aHMKYWdvLgoKSSBkb24ndCBrbm93IGFsbCBvZiB0aGUgcHJvYmxl bXMgZmFjaW5nIHRoZSBib2FyZC4gSSdtIG5vdCBzdXJlIHRoYXQKSSdtIGVudGl0bGVkIHRvIGtu b3cgdGhlbS4gQnV0IGZyb20gd2hhdCBsaXR0bGUgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24gSSBoYXZlLCBJCmNhbid0 IGhlbHAgYnV0IGZlZWwgdGhhdCB0aGUgYm9hcmQgaGFzIGdvdHRlbiBtb3JlIG9wYXF1ZSBhbmQK b3ZlcndvcmtlZCBzaW5jZSBpdHMgcmVjZW50IHJlZHVjdGlvbiB0byA3IG1lbWJlcnMuIChGb3Ig dGhlIHJlY29yZCwgSQpzdGlsbCBkaXNsaWtlIHRoYXQgbm8gZ29vZCBhcmd1bWVudCB3YXMgbWFk ZSB0aGVuIGFzIHRvIHdoYXQgcHJvYmxlbXMKdGhlIHByZXZpb3VzIGJvYXJkIHdhcyBmYWNpbmcs IGFuZCB3aHkgZ2V0dGluZyByaWQgb2YgNCBwZW9wbGUgd291bGQKaGF2ZSBzb2x2ZWQgdGhvc2Ug cHJvYmxlbXMuIElNSE8sIGhpc3Rvcnkgbm93IHJlcGVhdHMgaXRzZWxmLikKCklmIGFkZGluZyAy IG1vcmUgbWVtYmVycyB3aWxsIGhlbHAgc29sdmUgdGhlIGJvYXJkJ3MgcHJvYmxlbXMgaW4gd2F5 cwp0aGF0IGRlbGVnYXRpb24gb3IgYXR0cml0aW9uIGFsb25lIGNhbid0LCB0aGVuIGdyZWF0LiBM ZXQncyBkbyBpdC4gQnV0CnBsZWFzZSwgbWFrZSBhbiBhcmd1bWVudCBpbiB0aGUgbmV4dCAzIGRh eXMgYXMgdG8gd2h5IGFkZGluZyB0aGVzZQpwZW9wbGUgd2lsbCBoZWxwIHNvbHZlIHRoZSBwcm9i bGVtLgoKQmVzdCwKRG9tCi0tIApDb3VudGluZyBib2RpZXMgbGlrZSBzaGVlcCB0byB0aGUgcmh5 dGhtIG9mIHRoZSB3YXIgZHJ1bXMuCg== From dneary@free.fr Fri Jun 9 16:48:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29F733B01F6 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:48:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19379-08 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:48:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1-g19.free.fr (smtp1-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.27]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 128893B11A4 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:48:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp1-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BCEA9ABB8 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 22:48:13 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4489DB7A.6090102@free.fr> Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 22:35:06 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060521) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Foundation-List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Draft agenda for foundation AGM during GUADEC X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 20:48:45 -0000 Hi, We will be holding a GNOME Foundation general meeting during GUADEC on Tuesday June 27th, at 14h. The agenda will be pretty basic - we will present what the board has been working on and will work on for the rest of the year, get a report on our finances from the treasurer, and have a Q&A session for the rest of the time available. The meeting is for foundation members - so please, if there are things you feel we should concentrate on, reply here with suggestions for additions, or for subjects which you consider important. The AGM is our way to communicate directly to the membership what everyone's been doing for the foundation and for the community. We won't be limiting ourselves to board activities - sinceone of the core tasks of the board is to be aware of what's going on around the foundation, and co-ordinate people when there is common interest. Cheers, Dave. Agenda ====== 1. Chairman's report Presentation of the board, and overview of the foundation's activities since last GUADEC. I will be handing off the conch to other board members for particular topics. 2. Treasurer's report The state of the finances - how much money we have, what we've spent money on, and what we plan to do with the rest. 3. Ongoing projects and their status 4. Questions & Answers -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From danw@novell.com Fri Jun 9 17:04:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 132FA3B01AB for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:04:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20767-04 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:04:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B2E43B00FE for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:04:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 20109 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 21:04:39 -0000 Received: from outbound.ximian.com (HELO ?164.99.121.40?) (danw@130.57.170.250) by peabody.ximian.com with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 21:04:39 -0000 Message-ID: <4489E254.1070900@novell.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 17:04:20 -0400 From: Dan Winship User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20060317) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606054045.GM5138@waugh.id.au> In-Reply-To: <20060606054045.GM5138@waugh.id.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.734 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.824, BAYES_05=-1.11, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2] X-Spam-Score: -1.734 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 21:04:45 -0000 Jeff Waugh wrote: > * We are attempting to do big things without the benefit of having a face > to face meeting. Every board so far has been more effective post-GUADEC, > after they've had the opportunity to sit down, grind through the issues > with a lot of social bandwidth and look each other up and down a bit. It > really helps develop shared vision, shared values and shared trust in a > way that mail, phone and IRC can't. Should we shift the election cycle by a few months then, so that GUADEC falls near the start of the new board's term, rather than halfway through? -- Dan From rml@novell.com Fri Jun 9 17:23:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7FCA3B02C9 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:23:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21648-01 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:23:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 900583B0256 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:23:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 20159 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 21:23:16 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO betsy.boston.ximian.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 21:23:16 -0000 From: Robert Love To: Dan Winship In-Reply-To: <4489E254.1070900@novell.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606054045.GM5138@waugh.id.au> <4489E254.1070900@novell.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 17:23:32 -0400 Message-Id: <1149888212.31757.191.camel@betsy.boston.ximian.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.482 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.083, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2] X-Spam-Score: -2.482 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 21:23:18 -0000 On Fri, 2006-06-09 at 17:04 -0400, Dan Winship wrote: > Should we shift the election cycle by a few months then, so that GUADEC > falls near the start of the new board's term, rather than halfway through? I am pretty sure that cheetah's don't have teeth, but I could be way off on that one. Robert Love From rml@novell.com Fri Jun 9 17:26:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9FF33B02D1 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:26:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21629-06 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:26:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C92C23B02C9 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:26:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 20164 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 21:26:14 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO betsy.boston.ximian.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 21:26:14 -0000 From: Robert Love To: Dan Winship In-Reply-To: <1149888212.31757.191.camel@betsy.boston.ximian.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606054045.GM5138@waugh.id.au> <4489E254.1070900@novell.com> <1149888212.31757.191.camel@betsy.boston.ximian.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 17:26:29 -0400 Message-Id: <1149888389.31757.193.camel@betsy.boston.ximian.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.482 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.083, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2] X-Spam-Score: -2.482 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 21:26:19 -0000 On Fri, 2006-06-09 at 17:23 -0400, Robert Love wrote: > On Fri, 2006-06-09 at 17:04 -0400, Dan Winship wrote: > > > Should we shift the election cycle by a few months then, so that GUADEC > > falls near the start of the new board's term, rather than halfway through? > > I am pretty sure that cheetah's don't have teeth, but I could be way off > on that one. There is a definite bug in Evolution. Robert Love From anne@oestergaard.nu Fri Jun 9 18:41:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3E513B0353 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 18:41:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25560-09 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 18:41:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 379E33B0101 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 18:41:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user4.cybercity.dk (user4.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.50]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2FD2245263 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 00:41:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user4.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 464415045D for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 00:41:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 1264 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 22:41:17 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 22:41:17 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: David Neary In-Reply-To: <4489DB7A.6090102@free.fr> References: <4489DB7A.6090102@free.fr> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 00:41:16 +0200 Message-Id: <1149892876.4453.220.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.539 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.060, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.539 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Foundation-List Subject: Re: Draft agenda for foundation AGM during GUADEC X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 22:41:33 -0000 fre, 09 06 2006 kl. 22:35 +0200, skrev David Neary: > Hi, > > We will be holding a GNOME Foundation general meeting during GUADEC on > Tuesday June 27th, at 14h. > > The agenda will be pretty basic - we will present what the board has > been working on and will work on for the rest of the year, get a report > on our finances from the treasurer, and have a Q&A session for the rest > of the time available. > > The meeting is for foundation members - so please, if there are things > you feel we should concentrate on, reply here with suggestions for > additions, or for subjects which you consider important. > > The AGM is our way to communicate directly to the membership what > everyone's been doing for the foundation and for the community. We won't > be limiting ourselves to board activities - sinceone of the core tasks since one > of the board is to be aware of what's going on around the foundation, > and co-ordinate people when there is common interest. > > Cheers, > Dave. > > Agenda > ====== > > 1. Chairman's report > > Presentation of the board, and overview of the foundation's activities > since last GUADEC. I will be handing off the conch to other board > members for particular topics. > > 2. Treasurer's report > > The state of the finances - how much money we have, what we've spent > money on, and what we plan to do with the rest. > > 3. Ongoing projects and their status > > 4. Questions & Answers Looks fine to me. Thanks Dave. Anne From jdub@waugh.id.au Sat Jun 10 03:27:16 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D9D63B021F for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 03:27:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15839-04 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 03:27:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A4FE3B01B7 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 03:27:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (ppp121-112.static.internode.on.net [150.101.121.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27C473C362 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:27:12 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6E7653F55; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:27:03 +1000 (EST) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:27:03 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060610072703.GG5138@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606054045.GM5138@waugh.id.au> <4489E254.1070900@novell.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <4489E254.1070900@novell.com> Reply-By: Tue Jun 13 16:55:45 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 16:55:45 up 8 days, 16:47, 10 users, load average: 0.06, 0.09, 0.03 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.448 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.448 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 07:27:16 -0000 > Jeff Waugh wrote: > > * We are attempting to do big things without the benefit of having a > > face to face meeting. Every board so far has been more effective > > post-GUADEC, after they've had the opportunity to sit down, grind > > through the issues with a lot of social bandwidth and look each other > > up and down a bit. It really helps develop shared vision, shared values > > and shared trust in a way that mail, phone and IRC can't. > > Should we shift the election cycle by a few months then, so that GUADEC > falls near the start of the new board's term, rather than halfway through? I'd like to, and proposed it during my previous term, but it wasn't pursued (probably a combination of my year off, other important structural changes going on, and indecision about how to kick it off - delay the elections by five months or shift them ahead by four?). Aiming for elections in May would probably be best - I'll add this to the board agenda, thanks! - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ "Trying to get a PC to analyse one of the most abstract forms of language - the poem - is like trying to drill for oil with a banana." - The Register From aguelzow@pyrshep.ca Mon Jun 5 14:59:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EAD83B0A25 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:59:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23291-09 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:59:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.mail.interbaun.com (smtp01.mail.interbaun.com [199.185.130.39]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEF373B09D1 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:59:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 14439 invoked by uid 502); 5 Jun 2006 18:59:31 -0000 Received: from 226.207-229-35-0.interbaun.com (207.229.35.226) by smtp01.mail.interbaun.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 18:59:31 -0000 From: "Andreas J. Guelzow" To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 12:58:39 -0600 Message-Id: <1149533919.6058.5.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 16:16:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 18:59:45 -0000 On Mon, 2006-05-06 at 13:21 -0400, Dominic Lachowicz wrote: > > Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > > > > Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > > everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. > > It doesn't seem to be entirely arbitrary. The 3 "appointees" were the > next 3 highest vote-getters in the 2005 elections. In other words, they lost the election. > > http://foundation.gnome.org/vote/results.php?election_id=2 > > > candidacy statement for the next election. But, they can't be members of > > the board without an election. > > The Foundation's charter apparently says (in at least two places) that > they can appoint members without an election: > > http://foundation.gnome.org/about/charter/ > > "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows, > subject to approval by the board or referendum of the membership." > > "Between elections, board vacancies or new board slots shall be filled > by appointment by the board of directors." This is different from temporarily appointing 2 additional members. Of course the board can add new seats, but they will then be permanent until (again?) removed via a referendum. Andreas From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Sat Jun 10 19:23:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F2583B0250 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:23:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31888-05 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:23:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5649B3B00BE for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:23:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 25487 invoked by uid 0); 10 Jun 2006 23:03:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.33]) (83.55.171.219) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:03:01 +0000 From: Quim Gil To: Dominic Lachowicz In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606090831h34982de3u16db61e5308242ec@mail.gmail.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149860019.4453.144.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606090831h34982de3u16db61e5308242ec@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-KTaz04E3pQ5RiXxb3JWq" Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 01:03:01 +0200 Message-Id: <1149980581.5208.64.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.421 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=1.178, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -1.421 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:23:34 -0000 --=-KTaz04E3pQ5RiXxb3JWq Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Dom, El dv 09 de 06 del 2006 a les 11:31 -0400, en/na Dominic Lachowicz va escriure: > What > problems is the board facing that cannot be handled by the current > members plus delegation as appropriate? This is a good question (the other ones as well, but at least I can say something about this one). In the board meeting of last Wednesday we discussed possible and easy to implement ways to improve the communication and collaboration between the board and people willing to have a higher implication and participation in foundation/board tasks.=20 Good communication eases collaboration, and good collaboration eases trust. Trust is the root of many problems of delegation: sharing or delegating a private task to someone you trust and collaborate takes 5 minutes (ok, maybe more). The same action without regular communication-collaboration-trust takes more time, and risk. Jeff is preparing a proposal. I just wanted to provide some informal and personal feedback so you don't think that the board is keeping the temporary enlargement as the only or primary option to consider. > IMHO, history now repeats itself.) Another interesting point, that brings an issue... In our current setting it is very unlikely that the current board is going to criticize openly something specific about the last board. I believe the way the board is mounted and unmounted every year makes difficult to make (self)criticism openly. It's not like one party losing an election and a new party coming in (system that has its defects but at least assures criticism and review of the past actions). This is not something unique to the GNOME Foundation, this is a problem intrinsic in any organization voting for individuals that suddenly need to work as a compact team, and then be renewed quite often (like once a year). The problem is clearer when some individuals repeat, and some come in for the first time. Maybe a solution would be that the team leaving the board makes not only a meeting with the new board members, but also a last internal meeting to write up a public report of which things went well and why, and which things went bad and why. And/or a summary of the same questions answered individually by each board member. Hackers know that documenting is the best way to avoid known mistakes. --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-KTaz04E3pQ5RiXxb3JWq Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEi0+kBEzHYk6x634RAqbeAJ9KM9xYm0T4wGYCpXUQewmeO2aZMgCeL2F/ 880R+hSnd79e/n/kwcLeFpg= =HToh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-KTaz04E3pQ5RiXxb3JWq-- From dneary@free.fr Mon Jun 12 03:55:04 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BAE23B00D4 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 03:55:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24556-10 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 03:54:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp12.wanadoo.fr (smtp12.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.20]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32A523B0186 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 03:54:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf1201.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 2B0571C00089; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 09:54:39 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060612075439176.2B0571C00089@mwinf1201.orange.fr Message-ID: <448D1DCC.7090102@free.fr> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 09:54:52 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Neary References: <4489DB7A.6090102@free.fr> In-Reply-To: <4489DB7A.6090102@free.fr> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Foundation-List Subject: Re: Draft agenda for foundation AGM during GUADEC X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 07:55:04 -0000 Hi, David Neary wrote: > The agenda will be pretty basic - we will present what the board has > been working on and will work on for the rest of the year, get a report > on our finances from the treasurer, and have a Q&A session for the rest > of the time available. Following on from feedback, a partial list of the various initiatives and projects we'll be including is below: > Agenda > ====== > > 1. Chairman's report > > Presentation of the board, and overview of the foundation's activities > since last GUADEC. I will be handing off the conch to other board > members for particular topics. * Documentation contract * Public service * Foundation administrator role * Google SoC * Foundation organised/funded Conferences * Conference presence - EclipseCon, LinuxWorld, FOSDEM, linux.conf.au, ... * Event boxes * Communication & promotion > 2. Treasurer's report > > The state of the finances - how much money we have, what we've spent > money on, and what we plan to do with the rest. > > 3. Ongoing projects and their status * Web site redesign * Trademark agreements * Executive director * Merchandising (dormant) > 4. Questions & Answers Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From federico@ximian.com Mon Jun 12 11:55:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEDC73B009D for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:55:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09055-01 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:55:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB46E3B0078 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:55:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 21660 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2006 15:52:35 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?192.168.1.101?) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 12 Jun 2006 15:52:35 -0000 From: Federico Mena Quintero To: foundation-list@gnome.org, foundation-announce-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 10:48:18 -0500 Message-Id: <1150127298.17566.47.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Minutes of the Board meeting, 2006/Apr/05 X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:55:13 -0000 Dusting out the drawer of old minutes... GNOME Foundation Board Meeting, 2006/04/05 ========================================== Attendance: Dave (Chairing, minutes) Vincent Luis Jonathan Rosanna Jeff (0:10) Regrets: Anne Missing: Federico Actions: Luis to mail boston-social@gnome.org to look for volunteers to represent us at Boston Usenix and Boston LWE - DONE! Dave to be our liaison with marketing-list to set up the basic structure of the new www.gnome.org - ongoing Dave to request a contract from Quim for GUADEC - ongoing. We expect something by Easter. Federico to mail advisory-board-list about what members would like to obtain from the Foundation. - We'll pick it up at the meeting. Jeff to write a proposal for the technical project meeting. - ongoing. Jeff describes Ghosts of past Conferences. Something we should do for GUADEC. Luis to send mail RE LWE/Usenix: done GUADEC meetings - Deciding dates & times for advisory board and board meetings Board meeting before and Advisory after is a good idea. -Dave: We should split up the all-day board meeting so we don't wear out. -Advisory board is on Thursday, June 29th Advisory board - Preparing the meeting - Need an agenda - luis: Should we keep it to a single agenda? - bolsh: Want to turn it into something where they go to them frequently - jeff: turn it into a long term agenda Action: Get Advisory board rep for RH -Done: Gerry Riveros is representing Advisory Board fees - -We're going to go to a January billing period. Prorate people. No one has been billed yet. Axis Informática wanting to sell products with the GNOME logo (see Rodrigo's mail) -Reuse the german contract for this group (initially) -Turn it into a generic TM agreemark that people can use -Action: Contact lawyers to make sure our generic contract can work. Federico From federico@ximian.com Mon Jun 12 11:56:06 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0BB33B009D for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:56:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08921-07 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:56:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69BDF3B0010 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:56:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 21665 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2006 15:54:57 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?192.168.1.101?) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 12 Jun 2006 15:54:57 -0000 From: Federico Mena Quintero To: foundation-list@gnome.org, foundation-announce-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 10:50:41 -0500 Message-Id: <1150127441.17566.48.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Minutes of the Board meeting, 2006/Apr/26 X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:56:06 -0000 GNOME Foundation Board Meeting, 2006/04/26 ========================================== Attendance: =========== Dave Neary (Chairing, minutes) Luis Villa Anne Oestergaard Vincent Untz Jeff Waugh Missing: ======== Jonathan Blandford (arrived :50) Federico Mena Quintero Actions ======= * Dave to request a contract from Quim for GUADEC - ongoing * Jeff to write a proposal for the technical project meeting - outside scope of the board * Dave to resurrect German contract from last year so that we can use it for Axis Informática - ongoing (sent to foundation-list for round of feedback) New actions =========== ACTION: Announce US event box & contents (Vincent) ACTION: Announce final shortlist of GUADEC 07 candidates (Anne) ACTION: Dave to get feedback off Dom on the old contract, and mail the result on to foundation list ACTION: Anne to contact Tim for the name of the lawyer who worked on the agreement last year Agenda: ======= 1. Administrator * Process for hiring full-time executive director * Refine job description, and talk about the profile we're looking for We would like to hire an executive director to develop business strategy and manage our relationships with commercial and non-profit partners. We're going to take the time to hire the right person. We also need to make sure basic administration and accounting are taken care of in a timely fashion. We can continue to hire a part time administrator or out-source office services. It was agreed that outsourcing in the Boston area, where our lawyers and accountants are located, makes sense. 2. Summer of Code * Let's make sure GNOME does better (from an organisational point of view) this time Vincent and Behdad took care of organising GNOME for this. 3. GUADEC 2007 - declare list of candidates Candidates to be proposed publically on foundation-list for a public comments period. 4. Decision for the US event box (Carried on mailing list: no discussion needed) -- Federico Mena Quintero From federico@ximian.com Mon Jun 12 12:01:35 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CA2A3B008A for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 12:01:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09149-02 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 12:01:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6C8B3B0100 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 12:00:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 21670 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2006 15:59:08 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?192.168.1.101?) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 12 Jun 2006 15:59:08 -0000 From: Federico Mena Quintero To: foundation-list@gnome.org, foundation-announce-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 10:54:52 -0500 Message-Id: <1150127692.17566.50.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Minutes of the Board meeting, 2006/May/17 X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 16:01:35 -0000 GNOME Foundation Board Meeting, 2006/05/17 ========================================== Attendance: Anne Federico (minutes) Jonathan Vincent No attendance: Dave (regrets) Luis (regrets) Jeff We started the meeting on IRC since there was trouble with the phone access code. JRB came in later, fixed our code, and we started the phone meeting around 45 minutes after the IRC one. PREVIOUS ACTIONS ================ * Dave to ask Dom to refine/reduce the German contract: DONE, RFC gone to foundation-list * Anne to announce final list of GUADEC 2007 candidates: DONE. * Vincent to announce North American event box: DONE. * Luis to find out which lawyer we worked with on the contract revisions last year: NOT DONE. * JRB to get quotes for back-office services, via Owen: NOT DONE. * Jeff to send Embedded agenda to board list: NOT DONE. NEW ACTIONS =========== * Luis to find out which lawyer we worked with on the contract revisions last year (carried over from previous actions). * JRB to get quotes for back-office services, via Owen (carried over from previous actions). * Jeff and Vincent to send Embedded agenda to board list (carried over from previous actions). * Federico to send a draft job announcement to board-list for the executive director and the administrator. * Federico to write an agenda for the next Advisory Board meeting, to take place on May 31st. [Taken up by Dave] * JRB to mail board-list about invoicing Intel (hard disk crash). * JRB to send an update on what hardware has been bought for the event box. * Quim to contact HP and Novell about sponsorship for GUADEC. * Federico to mail Quim/Behdad/Germán about replacing Luis. AGENDA ====== * Invoicing GUADEC sponsors & advisory board members - Pending paperwork. * Handling conference finances - need to ask Dave about mailing Quim. * Buying stuff for the event box - how, when, what, who - need volunteers. * Financial situation - no change. * Merchandising contract - it has gone to foundation-list. * GUADEC - no update. * Ad board - we're due another meeting, it's been a month. How about in a fortnight? (UPDATE: a fortnight from now) Yes, it will be on May 31st. Federico to send an agenda and announcement. * GUADEC 2007 - It would be nice to have a public request for comments period. (UPDATE: Anne has said she'll take care of this). It's in foundation-list now. * Administrator - type of person we want, process for getting the hire going, the usual. We need to start moving forward on that, seriously. We need a full-time person working for us. No quotes for outsourcing yet. From federico@ximian.com Mon Jun 12 13:57:30 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3C333B0943 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 13:57:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21275-07 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 13:57:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 949C23B0150 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 12:07:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 21703 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2006 16:06:26 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?192.168.1.101?) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 12 Jun 2006 16:06:26 -0000 From: Federico Mena Quintero To: foundation-list@gnome.org, foundation-announce@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:02:10 -0500 Message-Id: <1150128130.17566.52.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Minutes of the Board meeting, 2006/Jun/07 X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 17:57:30 -0000 GNOME Foundation Board Meeting, 2006/06/07 ========================================== Attendance: Anne Dave Federico Jeff Jonathan Quim (welcome, Quim!) No attendance: Vincent (regrets) PREVIOUS ACTIONS ================ PUBLIC: * Dave to request a contract from Quim for GUADEC: IN PROGRESS. Quim is taking care of this. * Dave to resurrect German contract from last year so that we can use it for Axis Informática. IN PROGRESS. Needs to go to the lawyer. * Jeff to write a proposal for the technical project meeting: IN PROGRESS * Federico to send a draft job announcement to board-list for the executive director and the administrator: NOT DONE * Federico to write an agenda for the next Advisory Board meeting, to take place on May 31st. DONE, the meeting happened. * JRB to send an update on what hardware has been bought for the event box: IN PROGRESS. * JRB to mail board-list about invoicing Intel (hard disk crash): Quim to take this action. * Quim to contact HP and Novell about sponsorship for GUADEC. DONE - both sponsoring * Federico to mail Quim/Behdad/Germán about replacing Luis. DONE NEW ACTIONS =========== * Federico to send minutes from the Advisory Board meeting to advisory-board-list. * JRB to post the contact info for the lawyer / accountant to board-list and the wiki. * Federico to make the announcement for the part-time administrator. * Jeff to write a proposal for the subcommittees. * Jeff to ensure that all the board members are in the marketing-private and board-only lists. * Dave to send draft agenda for the Advisory Board meeting, based on Federico's paper. * Anne to to take over contacts with GNOME's legal partners. AGENDA ====== * Welcome Quim to the Board: - Gave Quim a brief update on what the Board has been doing. - Quim told us that he has been reading the board-list minutes but not the archives. * Figuring out how to execute all the pending actions, and not be swamped in pending stuff all the time: - NEW ACTION: JRB to post the contact info for the lawyer / accountant to board-list and the wiki. - We are going to need a presence in the USA no matter what, for legal matters in the Foundation. * Administrator hire / outsourcing: - NEW ACTION: Federico to make the announcement for the part-time administrator. - We want to hire someone part-time immediately and will announce the vacancy and ask Zana to submit a candidature. * Increasing the board size: - Idea about letting people into board-list and into the phone calls, without them being board members. Then they can volunteer to do some of the tasks that the board can't do effectively (like someone in the USA to look for an administrator). - NEW ACTION: Jeff to write a proposal for the subcommittees. * Agendas for GUADEC: - Let's send provisional agendas in advance. - NEW ACTION: Dave to send draft agenda for the Advisory Board meeting, based on Federico's paper. From behdad.esfahbod@gmail.com Thu Jun 15 17:38:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10A073B0011 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2006 17:38:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02101-02 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2006 17:38:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.235]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CCB93B0305 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2006 17:38:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 37so427821wra for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2006 14:38:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.108.13 with SMTP id g13mr2187733wrc; Thu, 15 Jun 2006 14:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.190.5? ( [72.136.156.47]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 6sm1544376wrl.2006.06.15.14.38.10; Thu, 15 Jun 2006 14:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Women's Summer Outreach Program 2006 From: Behdad Esfahbod To: gnome-hackers@gnome.org, foundation-list@gnome.org, foundation-announce@gnome.org, gnome-announce-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 17:38:06 -0400 Message-Id: <1150407487.29623.12.camel@home> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 (2.6.1-1.fc5.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: Behdad Esfahbod X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 21:38:54 -0000 GNOME to Sponsor Female Developers in a Summer Outreach Program BOSTON, Mass - June 13, 2006 - The GNOME Foundation is offering USD$9000 to female students in order to promote the participation of women in GNOME-related development. The money originates from GNOME's participation in the Google "Summer of Code" program (code.google.com/soc/), for which GNOME developers will mentor 20 students working throughout the northern summer on GNOME-related projects. This year GNOME received 181 applications to Google's program, yet none were from women. The GNOME Foundation has therefore chosen to reinvest Google's contribution into a new program designed to increase the participation of women in GNOME. The program has no official relationship with Google. "Free software prides itself on being open to anyone with a good idea, yet less than 2% of free software developers are female. We, as a community, need to be actively working to change this statistic, and programs like this one are a much needed step in the right direction." said Hanna Wallach, a GNOME developer who is involved in several projects that encourage women to participate in free software development. The Women's Summer Outreach Program is currently accepting applications from female students. Accepted students will receive a stipend of USD $3000 over a two month period. A pool of project ideas is provided at www.gnome.org/projects/wsop/, though original proposals are also encouraged. Projects may either be related to GNOME directly, or indirectly via projects such as Gstreamer and Abiword. Each student will be assigned a mentor to provide guidance throughout the program. Vincent Untz, member of the GNOME Foundation board and coordinator of the GNOME team for Google's "Summer of Code" program, explained: "Many women have the skills required to contribute to Free Software projects like GNOME, but may not see an opportunity to start working with us. By initiating this program, not only do we want to highlight the issue, but we also hope that this opportunity will help more women to get involved in the long term." Applications should be submitted using the form at www.gnome.org/projects/wsop/. More information about the application process may be found at the same location. From mark@galassi.org Sun Jun 11 01:20:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CD043B0074; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 01:20:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11497-01; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 01:20:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agora.rdrop.com (agora.rdrop.com [199.26.172.34]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 277D23B00C1; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 01:20:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (67-42-116-199.albq.qwest.net [67.42.116.199]) (authenticated bits=0) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id k5B5IxaM059197 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 10 Jun 2006 22:19:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@galassi.org) To: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> From: Mark Galassi Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:18:04 -0600 In-Reply-To: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> (Federico Mena Quintero's message of "Fri, 09 Jun 2006 09:35:42 -0500") Message-ID: <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (agora.rdrop.com [199.26.172.34]); Sat, 10 Jun 2006 22:19:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.465 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.465 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 05:53:15 -0400 Cc: foundation-announce@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 05:20:27 -0000 Federico> 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. I hope that it will be a firm requirement that only free s/w be used to run the Foundation's administration. I know you are only talking about literacy, not what tools will be used, but I think this is a good moment to state that if we start hiring non-free-sw-hackers to do this kind of work, we should insist that they use free tools. I still remember my sadness when I worked for Cygnus and saw that the non-developers did not use free s/w across the board. From rms@gnu.org Sat Jun 17 15:56:39 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A04183B01A6; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:56:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05890-09; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:56:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7F0E3B0061; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:56:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1Frgt3-0006cU-Ba; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:55:17 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Mark Galassi In-reply-to: <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> (message from Mark Galassi on Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:18:04 -0600) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Message-Id: Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:55:17 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.549 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.051, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.549 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-announce@gnome.org, foundation-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:56:39 -0000 Federico> 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. Unless you're looking for kernel hackers, please make that "GNU/Linux literate". You probably want people who know how to edit with Emacs, write code to compile with GCC, debug with GDB, and call functions in GLIBC and GTK+. From alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk Sat Jun 17 18:05:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E96D3B095C; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:05:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11915-05; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:05:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (unknown [81.2.110.250]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8C153B0995; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:05:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k5HMK9aZ010673; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:20:09 +0100 Received: (from alan@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k5HMK8a3010672; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:20:08 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: alan set sender to alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk using -f Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Alan Cox To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:20:08 +0100 Message-Id: <1150582808.10649.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.2 (2.6.2-1.fc5.5) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.589 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.010, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.589 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-announce@gnome.org, foundation-list@gnome.org, Mark Galassi X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 22:05:03 -0000 Ar Sad, 2006-06-17 am 15:55 -0400, ysgrifennodd Richard Stallman: > Unless you're looking for kernel hackers, > please make that "GNU/Linux literate". Linux is a trademark in the USA. The use of GNU/Linux without indicating the trademark is inappropriately confusing the registered mark. And last time I checked GNOME was not a GNU project. Alan From jrb@redhat.com Sat Jun 17 18:12:06 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E29BF3B095C; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:12:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12356-02; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:12:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [66.187.233.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 567043B035D; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:12:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5HL9w54017447; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 17:09:58 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (devserv.devel.redhat.com [172.16.58.1]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5HL9wAk007091; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 17:09:58 -0400 Received: from vpn50-83.rdu.redhat.com (vpn50-83.rdu.redhat.com [172.16.50.83]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5HL9wrV027671; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 17:09:58 -0400 Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Jonathan Blandford To: Mark Galassi In-Reply-To: <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-Nx9mtySaFKPPRo++4u3H" Organization: Red Hat, Inc. Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 17:09:57 -0400 Message-Id: <1150578597.2841.94.camel@peach> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.2 (2.6.2-1.fc5.5) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.583 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.583 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-announce@gnome.org, foundation-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 22:12:06 -0000 --=-Nx9mtySaFKPPRo++4u3H Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, 2006-06-10 at 23:18 -0600, Mark Galassi wrote: > Federico> 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. >=20 > I hope that it will be a firm requirement that only free s/w be used > to run the Foundation's administration. >=20 > I know you are only talking about literacy, not what tools will be > used, but I think this is a good moment to state that if we start > hiring non-free-sw-hackers to do this kind of work, we should insist > that they use free tools. >=20 > I still remember my sadness when I worked for Cygnus and saw that the > non-developers did not use free s/w across the board. Right now, we use free tools to run almost all the foundation's books. We use gnucash, abiword, glabels[1] and gnucash for the bookkeeping. The GNOME tools are more than adequate to handle the Foundation's needs. We do have a vmware instance to run Internet Explorer just for online banking. No one on the board is happy with this situation, and we're planning on switching banks over this issue. Thanks, -Jonathan [1] which is a really nice and underpromoted program. Many kudos to the authors for doing such a slick job on this application. --=-Nx9mtySaFKPPRo++4u3H Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBElG+lEXFTqNjUZNwRAl8xAJ0anqoLKt5dgU454m1WNN3cMSw0DgCgnxu2 uNT01EAS78FHMGmDtvrSe4U= =96VV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-Nx9mtySaFKPPRo++4u3H-- From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Sat Jun 17 18:17:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EF873B035D for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:17:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12134-06 for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:17:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 740AD3B00EC for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:17:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 22052 invoked by uid 0); 17 Jun 2006 22:09:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.34]) (83.55.163.198) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 22:09:23 +0000 Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Quim Gil To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-BKWWivCcc2A9dMiCc/lk" Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 00:09:23 +0200 Message-Id: <1150582163.5117.119.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.489 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=1.110, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -1.489 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, Mark Galassi X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 22:17:36 -0000 --=-BKWWivCcc2A9dMiCc/lk Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El ds 17 de 06 del 2006 a les 15:55 -0400, en/na Richard Stallman va escriure: > Federico> 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. >=20 > Unless you're looking for kernel hackers, > please make that "GNU/Linux literate". In fact, in this case it would be most accurate to say "Preferably free software literate", since the skills we require from this administrator are focused on the usage of office/desktop applications. Maybe we should have simply asked for someone "preferably GNOME user". :) > You probably want people who know how to edit with Emacs, > write code to compile with GCC, debug with GDB, and call > functions in GLIBC and GTK+. Well, not at all. We are looking for an administrator (accounting, bookkeeping and so on) and not for a system administrator or a developer. Think more on the basic Internet tools, word processors, spreadsheets and accounting applications. About making this preference for free software literacy a requirement, I agree the desirable scenario would be to have an accountant hired by the GNOME Foundation and working with GNOME. But we need an accountant, urgently. Finding candidates is not easy, and the priority is to find the best accountant available. If this person doesn't know perfectly how to use the free tools available s/he can learn. Very different of hiring a great free software user/developer with just regular administrative skills. Help us finding a great administrator with the free software skills needed, and problem solved. :) PS: Richard, looking forward to seeing you next week in Barcelona. --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-BKWWivCcc2A9dMiCc/lk Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBElH2TBEzHYk6x634RAtXIAKCLt4AFrMI1nTSPHx6Jb/37wjIccgCgjaMF xsTDfjS15mNraeZqZMLEn18= =5H0p -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-BKWWivCcc2A9dMiCc/lk-- From csaavedr@wh8.tu-dresden.de Sat Jun 17 19:20:25 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEB543B00AA for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:20:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14208-01 for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:20:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de (B202a.WH8.tu-dresden.de [141.30.225.153]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 945613B0072 for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:20:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from claudio by b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1Fri1j-00079r-O8; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:08:19 +0200 Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Claudio Saavedra To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:08:19 +0200 Message-Id: <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.7.2.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.511 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=1.088, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -1.511 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, Mark Galassi X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:20:25 -0000 On Sat, 2006-06-17 at 15:55 -0400, Richard Stallman wrote: > Federico> 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. > > Unless you're looking for kernel hackers, > please make that "GNU/Linux literate". > You probably want people who know how to edit with Emacs, > write code to compile with GCC, debug with GDB, and call > functions in GLIBC and GTK+. Even when you are right regarding the probably-irrelevant-in-context GNU/Linux issue, it worths noting that the Foundation is looking for an administrator, not a hacker. That is clearly stated in Federico's e-mail title and body. Claudio -- Claudio Saavedra From ross@golder.org Sun Jun 18 01:32:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE8D33B0078 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 01:32:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25300-01 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 01:32:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from black.golder.org (black.golder.org [81.6.249.35]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F5E73B0077 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 01:32:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by black.golder.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 912E14A91; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 06:31:48 +0100 (BST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at golder.org Received: from black.golder.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (black.golder.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N7kkDs0z54xW; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 06:31:46 +0100 (BST) Received: from [10.175.76.210] (unknown [203.170.228.172]) by black.golder.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32A6C3FE2; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 06:31:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Ross Golder To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:30:54 +0700 Message-Id: <1150608655.10699.15.camel@red> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.427 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.614, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.558] X-Spam-Score: -0.427 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, Mark Galassi X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 05:32:52 -0000 On Sat, 2006-06-17 at 15:55 -0400, Richard Stallman wrote: > You probably want people who know how to edit with Emacs, > write code to compile with GCC, debug with GDB, and call > functions in GLIBC and GTK+. I don't think that's exactly what the board had in mind when said they were after an 'administrator'. I think the requirement was to be computer literate in the sense of being able to use 'normal' user-based applications, such as word processors and spreadsheets, to manage the day-to-day running of the foundation. If they're handy with Emacs, GCC and the rest, they'd probably be wasted on doing the admin job described ;) -- Ross From rms@gnu.org Sun Jun 18 12:27:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09B433B08DE for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:27:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02641-10 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:27:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F22B23B0739 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:27:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1Fs06n-0005PA-9D; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:26:45 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Alan Cox In-reply-to: <1150582808.10649.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> (message from Alan Cox on Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:20:08 +0100) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150582808.10649.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-Id: Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:26:45 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.553 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.047, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.553 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 16:27:41 -0000 Linux is a trademark in the USA. The use of GNU/Linux without indicating the trademark is inappropriately confusing the registered mark. I could ask lawyers whether you are right, but I think there is no need to ask them unless someone makes a legal complaint. The FSF has never received one. The system as used today is basically GNU, but Linux is also an important component. We call it "GNU/Linux" partly so as to give the developers of Linux a share of the credit for the combination. If the developers of Linux prefer not to receive this share of the credit, they need only say so publicly; then if we stop adding "/Linux", people will understand that in doing so we are responding to their wishes. And last time I checked GNOME was not a GNU project. GNOME is part of the GNU project, but the two questions are independent. From rms@gnu.org Sun Jun 18 12:27:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCE733B0B52 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:27:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02678-07 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:27:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A58EF3B0862 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:27:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1Fs06o-0005PM-L2; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:26:46 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Claudio Saavedra In-reply-to: <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> (message from Claudio Saavedra on Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:08:19 +0200) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> Message-Id: Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:26:46 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.553 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.047, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.553 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 16:27:58 -0000 Even when you are right regarding the probably-irrelevant-in-context GNU/Linux issue, it worths noting that the Foundation is looking for an administrator, not a hacker. That is clearly stated in Federico's e-mail title and body. You're right; I had forgotten that. (I was looking at Mark's message which quoted those lines, not at Federico's message.) I'm sorry for causing some confusion. I ought to have said, Since you're not looking for kernel hackers, please make that "GNU/Linux literate". You probably want someone who knows how to edit with Emacs, do accounting with GNUcash and Gnumeric, operate GNOME, etc. (Quim Gil pointed out that it may be necessary to hire someone who isn't GNU/Linux literate, just to get someone soon. I'm not trying to dispute that question.) From dneary@free.fr Sun Jun 18 20:04:50 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01C193B016D for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:04:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15953-08 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:04:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from postfix1-c.free.fr (postfix1-c.free.fr [213.228.0.79]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C03463B00D9 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:04:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp4-g19.free.fr (smtp4-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.30]) by postfix1-c.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 153F01D0F8CA for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 19:47:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp4-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id B025D54B4D; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:46:55 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:46:51 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 00:04:50 -0000 Richard Stallman wrote: > Since you're not looking for kernel hackers, > please make that "GNU/Linux literate". > You probably want someone who knows how to edit with Emacs, > do accounting with GNUcash and Gnumeric, operate GNOME, etc. > > (Quim Gil pointed out that it may be necessary to hire someone > who isn't GNU/Linux literate, just to get someone soon. > I'm not trying to dispute that question.) In reality, we will likely hire someone who is already competent in the use of free software - but I agree with Quim that this should not be a requirement (obviously (at least to me), *using* free software will be part of the job, where possible). Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Mon Jun 19 02:11:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 126B23B00F5 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 02:11:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27639-03 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 02:11:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DDBF53B0768 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 02:11:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 9391 invoked by uid 0); 19 Jun 2006 03:43:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.34]) (83.57.177.1) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 03:43:17 +0000 Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Quim Gil To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-QZNJhnZwbMcdr5TNaRP4" Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 05:43:17 +0200 Message-Id: <1150688597.5156.27.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.221 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.378, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.221 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 06:11:33 -0000 --=-QZNJhnZwbMcdr5TNaRP4 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El dg 18 de 06 del 2006 a les 12:26 -0400, en/na Richard Stallman va escriure: > (Quim Gil pointed out that it may be necessary to hire someone > who isn't GNU/Linux literate, just to get someone soon. Just to avoid confusion, I didn't meant to hire someone who isn't free software literate to use non-free software tools as a GNOME administrator, but come and learn the usage of the free tools the Foundation is already using (detailed by Jonathan). A good administrator knowing the concepts and knowing to use non-free tools is very likely to learn the usage of the free tools easily. That's all. As Dave has pointed out, we have already at least one candidate able to use the current free tools. --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-QZNJhnZwbMcdr5TNaRP4 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBElh1VBEzHYk6x634RAk/wAJ9NJcxJMd5BaRvAE2lNm76/zlYR7gCfViG9 +4NfH+cpdGBCEPYrHBcIv9o= =rwa9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-QZNJhnZwbMcdr5TNaRP4-- From rms@gnu.org Mon Jun 19 16:09:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D20B3B0D15 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 16:09:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30107-07 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 16:09:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A0613B0217 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 16:09:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1FsQ39-00075Z-0M; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 16:08:43 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: David Neary In-reply-to: <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> (message from David Neary on Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:46:51 +0200) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> Message-Id: Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 16:08:43 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.56 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.040, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.56 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 20:09:41 -0000 In reality, we will likely hire someone who is already competent in the use of free software - but I agree with Quim that this should not be a requirement (obviously (at least to me), *using* free software will be part of the job, where possible). I think the Foundation should absolutely insist on using only free software. That way it will lead by example. From jdub@waugh.id.au Mon Jun 19 22:51:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED0A33B05A6 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:51:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18924-10 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D5A53B0301 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (unknown [81.80.162.93]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CF053C56C for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:50:56 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id F0999410E; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 04:28:04 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 04:28:04 +0200 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation Message-ID: <20060620022804.GB5152@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-25-686 i686 Reply-By: Fri Jun 23 04:26:14 CEST 2006 X-Uptime: 04:26:14 up 8:30, 5 users, load average: 0.02, 0.07, 0.03 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.59 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.009, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.59 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 02:51:52 -0000 > In reality, we will likely hire someone who is already competent in the > use of free software - but I agree with Quim that this should not be a > requirement (obviously (at least to me), *using* free software will be > part of the job, where possible). > > I think the Foundation should absolutely insist on using only free > software. That way it will lead by example. That is not under question. The suggestion Quim made is that having *prior experience* in the use of Free Software need not be necessary - however, the successful applicant will *absolutely* USE Free Software in their role, no questions asked. - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ "The GPL is good. Use it. Don't be silly." - Michael Meeks From dneary@free.fr Tue Jun 20 02:45:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B618A3B0248 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 02:45:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30248-07 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 02:45:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp6.orange.fr (smtp6.orange.fr [193.252.22.25]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41B9C3B0085 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 02:45:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp6.orange.fr (mwinf0604 [172.22.137.26]) by mwinf0610.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 2703A804F6D for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:43:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf0604.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 61BB21C001CE; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:43:18 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060620064318400.61BB21C001CE@mwinf0604.orange.fr Message-ID: <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:43:43 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 06:45:20 -0000 Hi, Richard Stallman wrote: > In reality, we will likely hire someone who is already competent in the > use of free software - but I agree with Quim that this should not be a > requirement (obviously (at least to me), *using* free software will be > part of the job, where possible). > > I think the Foundation should absolutely insist on using only free > software. That way it will lead by example. As Jonathan pointed out, our bank has a website which does some rather evil platform detection, and refuses to run on anything other than IE. So we are obliged to have a Windows instance installed, or we can not use this bank's online services. We have made our issue known, and are investigating changing banks. Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From baris@teamforce.name.tr Tue Jun 20 04:44:28 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B05333B0F52 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 04:44:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03469-07 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 04:44:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nerd.com.tr (unknown [69.60.117.115]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 354883B0F3F for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 04:44:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nerd.com.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52DE578503C; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 05:47:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nerd.com.tr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (nerd.com.tr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06570-08; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 05:47:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (unknown [81.213.157.51]) by nerd.com.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C6AA78503B; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 05:47:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Baris Cicek To: Dave Neary In-Reply-To: <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-PXVkvwvUKTNQvc8SbOVI" Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 11:43:47 +0300 Message-Id: <1150793027.2669.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 (2.6.1-1.fc5.2) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at nerd.com.tr X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.26 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.339, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.26 X-Spam-Level: Cc: mark@galassi.org, rms@gnu.org, foundation-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:44:28 -0000 --=-PXVkvwvUKTNQvc8SbOVI Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That might be a little technical and maybe out of this discussion boundaries but, why instead of making IE run over wine, you use more than necessary non-free software? (ie. Windows, VMWARE). I bet are already paid, but I use wine for IE related stuff, and it "just works". Besides, I find Linux (or GNU/Linux) literate expression a little problematic, because generally people use Computer Literate, and by default thinking it as Windows computer. To overcome this issue, best thing to do might be to call it as Computer Literate, and list the applications that applicant should know like OpenOffice.org and Firefox, gnuCash and even Linux. Once you know this applications, I doubt Linux Desktop learning curve would be steep for any applicant. This way it might solve the problem for those who would not apply for job since they don't know Linux, as people would see themselves as computer literate.=20 On Tue, 2006-06-20 at 08:43 +0200, Dave Neary wrote: > Hi, >=20 > Richard Stallman wrote: > > In reality, we will likely hire someone who is already competent in= the > > use of free software - but I agree with Quim that this should not b= e a > > requirement (obviously (at least to me), *using* free software will= be > > part of the job, where possible). > >=20 > > I think the Foundation should absolutely insist on using only free > > software. That way it will lead by example. >=20 > As Jonathan pointed out, our bank has a website which does some rather > evil platform detection, and refuses to run on anything other than IE. > So we are obliged to have a Windows instance installed, or we can not > use this bank's online services. We have made our issue known, and are > investigating changing banks. >=20 > Cheers, > Dave. >=20 --=-PXVkvwvUKTNQvc8SbOVI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEl7VD62fLHU++kcURAhtHAJ9UHIjP9z0fmc8pWeouqiuiYqpLQQCgpRsS tMw7PLzygujdDmZirBXFPkc= =t2gV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-PXVkvwvUKTNQvc8SbOVI-- From rms@gnu.org Tue Jun 20 13:56:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 728673B0302 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:56:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01985-06 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:56:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EF1A3B01C9 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:56:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1FskSW-0002Fm-Nl; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:56:16 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Dave Neary In-reply-to: <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> (message from Dave Neary on Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:43:43 +0200) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> Message-Id: Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:56:16 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.562 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.038, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.562 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 17:56:47 -0000 As Jonathan pointed out, our bank has a website which does some rather evil platform detection, and refuses to run on anything other than IE. This is worse than I realized. The Foundation is not only using user-subjugating software, it is using a bank that pressures its customers to do so. That makes two reasons to stop. Running Internet Explorer on GNU/Linux using Wine, which someone suggested, is not a real solution because IE itself is proprietary software. That approach avoids Windows, but doesn't avoid IE. Until you find another bank, you could stop dealing with the bank on line, and do business with it the old-fashioned way, with paper, phone calls, and/or visits to the bank office. It may be inconvenient, but it freedom is worth a small sacrifice. However, another approach is worth thinking about. What is the obstacle to programming a free browser so that it pretends to be IE? That would be the really desirable solution. What bank is it? Maybe the FSF and the GNOME Foundation can organize a pressure campaign for the bank to change its policies. From jrb@redhat.com Tue Jun 20 14:14:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FD993B0302 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03318-07 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [66.187.233.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9EA73B002A for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5KIEXeM012200; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:33 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (devserv.devel.redhat.com [172.16.58.1]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5KIEXXl005041; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:33 -0400 Received: from dhcp83-106.boston.redhat.com (dhcp83-106.boston.redhat.com [172.16.83.106]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5KIEXLi014411; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Jonathan Blandford To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-TDVQMLZFU5CgYyjlCe+L" Organization: Red Hat, Inc. Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:43 -0400 Message-Id: <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.2 (2.6.2-1.fc5.5) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.585 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.585 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 18:14:51 -0000 --=-TDVQMLZFU5CgYyjlCe+L Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable *shrug* Online banking is a new feature for this bank. We told them we were planning on switching banks if they didn't support Firefox or other browsers, and they said that they would look into it. I wouldn't expect them to support it overnight, and given the expense of switching banks, I wouldn't want to switch immediately. I don't know what a 'reasonable time' is for this, but we are probably just approaching it. Additionally, if you recall, the original purpose of this thread was to help find an administrator for the GNOME Foundation. I would expect the new admin to switch banks if we can't use Firefox or epiphany, but we're not exactly operating on all cylinders right now. Thanks, -Jonathan --=-TDVQMLZFU5CgYyjlCe+L Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEmDsSEXFTqNjUZNwRAk3oAKCr9C48KXFinXyWgIoIWP4UHrpfLgCdFdAI cvXosbkKBwWsgF8uQHhkKDA= =puHs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-TDVQMLZFU5CgYyjlCe+L-- From rms@gnu.org Tue Jun 20 19:32:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 822E23B038F for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:32:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24251-01 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:32:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D1E83B03D8 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:32:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1FspiH-0005lF-Iv; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:32:53 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Jonathan Blandford In-reply-to: <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> (message from Jonathan Blandford on Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:43 -0400) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-Id: Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:32:53 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.564 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.036, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.564 X-Spam-Level: Cc: dneary@free.fr, foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 23:32:56 -0000 Online banking is a new feature for this bank. We told them we were planning on switching banks if they didn't support Firefox or other browsers, and they said that they would look into it. I wouldn't expect them to support it overnight, It would be counterproductive to hurry them to decide; and if they decide to switch, they need time to do the work. However, that doesn't mean the GNOME Foundation needs to use non-free software. Since on-line banking is a new feature for them, you can do without it while waiting. Accepting inconveniences rather than using non-free software is a great way to show by example that freedom is important. From ross@golder.org Tue Jun 20 21:29:15 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97CDF3B0357 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 21:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29296-09 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 21:29:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from black.golder.org (black.golder.org [81.6.249.35]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D70683B043E for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 21:29:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by black.golder.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5740940DD; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:29:12 +0100 (BST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at golder.org Received: from black.golder.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (black.golder.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nWXZNpqFnBff; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:29:09 +0100 (BST) Received: from red (unknown [125.24.70.244]) by black.golder.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6E9A40AB; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:29:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Ross Golder To: Jonathan Blandford In-Reply-To: <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:28:24 +0700 Message-Id: <1150853304.5559.28.camel@red> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.536 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.063, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.536 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , mark@galassi.org, rms@gnu.org, foundation-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 01:29:15 -0000 On Tue, 2006-06-20 at 14:14 -0400, Jonathan Blandford wrote: > *shrug* > > Online banking is a new feature for this bank. We told them we were > planning on switching banks if they didn't support Firefox or other > browsers, and they said that they would look into it. I wouldn't expect > them to support it overnight, and given the expense of switching banks, > I wouldn't want to switch immediately. It shouldn't be hard to find a bank that does support our needs, open an account with them, transfer the money from the old account, close the old account, update some docs/notes. I can't see it costing more than a few hours and maybe a few dollars. A reasonably motivated administrator should have that done in a day or two, I'd have thought, then they won't have to sit around waiting for our bank to fix their systems. I'm curious as to why the account was opened with the current bank in the first place, without a basic check that their on-line facilities were suitable. It seems a bit odd. I'm not looking to assign blame to anyone, just to make sure it's a mistake learned from and something similar won't happen again at the foundation's cost. I'm also curious about who the current bank is :) > Additionally, if you recall, the original purpose of this thread was to > help find an administrator for the GNOME Foundation. I would expect the > new admin to switch banks if we can't use Firefox or epiphany, but we're > not exactly operating on all cylinders right now. > A good first job for them then. Also, would it be possible for them to write a brief monthly report to the foundation-list about their month's activities and expenses etc. It might help make things a little more transparent/accountable. -- Ross From mark@galassi.org Sat Jun 17 19:01:04 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F6E53B0080; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:01:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13804-04; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:01:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agora.rdrop.com (agora.rdrop.com [199.26.172.34]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A04713B00B2; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:01:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (67-42-116-199.albq.qwest.net [67.42.116.199]) (authenticated bits=0) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id k5HMCnLH009742 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:12:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@galassi.org) To: Jonathan Blandford Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578597.2841.94.camel@peach> From: Mark Galassi Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 16:12:38 -0600 In-Reply-To: <1150578597.2841.94.camel@peach> (Jonathan Blandford's message of "Sat, 17 Jun 2006 17:09:57 -0400") Message-ID: <87k67fh1nt.fsf@galassi.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (agora.rdrop.com [199.26.172.34]); Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:12:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.465 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.465 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:19:47 -0400 Cc: foundation-announce@gnome.org, foundation-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:01:04 -0000 >> I hope that it will be a firm requirement that only free s/w be >> used to run the Foundation's administration. Jonathan> Right now, we use free tools to run almost all the Jonathan> foundation's books. [...] I'm glad to hear this. I'm always embarassed when I see managers using Windows and PowerPoint to present the advantages of "open source". Although I guess their sense of self-irony should be applauded. From arieltenor@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 15:09:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 068543B01C9 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:09:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07446-06 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:09:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.169]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BE073B01AB for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:09:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id o2so3159054uge for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.58.11 with SMTP id g11mr2888428hua; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.70.5 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:09:48 -0500 From: "Ariel Rios" To: rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.34 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.260, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.34 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:19:47 -0400 Cc: Dave Neary , foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:09:54 -0000 > However, another approach is worth thinking about. What is the > obstacle to programming a free browser so that it pretends to be IE? > That would be the really desirable solution. I faced a similar issue with a Mexican bank that only supported Explorer. I downloaded the great User Agent Switcher extension for Firefox so I can use the site. Maybe that can also help for this specific bank. ariel From dneary@free.fr Wed Jun 21 02:20:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE14A3B0ACC for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:20:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12587-05 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:20:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2-g19.free.fr (smtp2-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.28]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A34173B07CA for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:20:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp2-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8471730DA; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:20:13 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4498E519.1090207@free.fr> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:20:09 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ross Golder Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1150853304.5559.28.camel@red> In-Reply-To: <1150853304.5559.28.camel@red> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org, Jonathan Blandford , rms@gnu.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 06:20:21 -0000 Hi, Ross Golder wrote: > It shouldn't be hard to find a bank that does support our needs, open an > account with them, transfer the money from the old account, close the > old account, update some docs/notes. I can't see it costing more than a > few hours and maybe a few dollars. A reasonably motivated administrator > should have that done in a day or two, I'd have thought, then they won't > have to sit around waiting for our bank to fix their systems. Update our records in various invoicing systems, go through paypal confirmation with the new account, get a credit card set up, change the credit card number with various suppliers, ... Changing banks, as anyone who has done so can tell you, is a pain - you end up finding out months afterwards that people you hadn't thought of still have your old bank details for electronic payments. > I'm also curious > about who the current bank is :) It's no secret - it's Silicon Valley Bank. I have no idea how or why they were chosen. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Wed Jun 21 03:32:26 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C367B3B073E for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 03:32:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17098-07 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 03:32:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 265943B0302 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 03:32:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 32359 invoked by uid 0); 21 Jun 2006 07:32:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.103]) (213.96.45.171) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 07:32:23 +0000 Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Quim Gil To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-9NcbC9D9ObPWb6tVSAvd" Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:17:02 +0200 Message-Id: <1150849022.5111.76.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.092 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.320, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_06_12=0.827] X-Spam-Score: -2.092 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 07:32:27 -0000 --=-9NcbC9D9ObPWb6tVSAvd Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El dt 20 de 06 del 2006 a les 13:56 -0400, en/na Richard Stallman va escriure: > Until you find another bank, you could stop dealing with the bank on > line, and do business with it the old-fashioned way, with paper, phone > calls, and/or visits to the bank office. It may be inconvenient, but > it freedom is worth a small sacrifice. Just to note that things are more complicated than this, applying your recommendation now would put GUADEC 2006 at risk. --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-9NcbC9D9ObPWb6tVSAvd Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEmI/+BEzHYk6x634RAli9AJ0Yl9ujZ51x8OevVFK6Od/EFrrVJgCgoRr9 /W9wXSuuUwhdaf48E+BWTbg= =2S6J -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-9NcbC9D9ObPWb6tVSAvd-- From rms@gnu.org Wed Jun 21 13:03:43 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9037F3B00AE for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:03:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23401-05 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:03:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EDA03B02D1 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:03:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1Ft67A-0003cy-2e; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:03:40 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Quim Gil In-reply-to: <1150849022.5111.76.camel@localhost> (message from Quim Gil on Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:17:02 +0200) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> <1150849022.5111.76.camel@localhost> Message-Id: Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:03:40 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.566 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.034, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.566 X-Spam-Level: Cc: dneary@free.fr, foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:03:43 -0000 Just to note that things are more complicated than this, applying your recommendation now would put GUADEC 2006 at risk. GUADEC will be finished a week from now; after a few more weeks go by, it surely won't be hard to use pen and paper for the remaining bills. From murrayc@murrayc.com Thu Jun 22 06:07:43 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E8513B035E for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 06:07:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14936-06 for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 06:07:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com (webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com [66.33.201.159]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC4DB3B0254 for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 06:07:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.murrayc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E839A2C203 for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 03:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 194.138.18.132 (proxying for unknown) (SquirrelMail authenticated user murrayc@murrayc.com) by webmail.murrayc.com with HTTP; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 12:07:39 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <16193.194.138.18.132.1150970859.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 12:07:39 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Code Of Conduct draft #2 From: "Murray Cumming" To: foundation-list@gnome.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.56 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.039, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.56 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 10:07:43 -0000 Here's my latest draft of the Code Of Conduct, or whatever we end up calling it: http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct I think the main content is done. More text would make the whole thing less ineresting. But I'm having particular difficulty writing the summary. Ideally it should be short, snappy, and inspirational. Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From vuntz@gnome.org Thu Jun 22 11:20:59 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7440A3B0689; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 11:20:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05338-02; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 11:20:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fennas.vuntz.net (fennas.vuntz.net [82.228.182.88]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C25A13B0495; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 11:20:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by fennas.vuntz.net (Postfix, from userid 33) id 6E19D112693; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 17:20:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 129.88.38.77 (SquirrelMail authenticated user vuntz) by vuntz.net with HTTP; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 17:20:56 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <50469.129.88.38.77.1150989656.squirrel@vuntz.net> Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 17:20:56 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Intel joins the GNOME Foundation's Advisory Board From: "Vincent Untz" To: foundation-announce@gnome.org, foundation-list@gnome.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.561 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.038, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.561 X-Spam-Level: Cc: advisory-board@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 15:20:59 -0000 The GNOME Foundation is welcoming Intel as an Advisory Board member. This is part of Intel's increasing commitment to GNOME and to the free software desktop. We are delighted to have Intel on board: it will help us continue our bet of combining the passion of the GNOME community with the need for quality, stability and long term plans of big players who are increasingly interested and involved in free software development. With Intel joining, the Advisory Board member now consists of twelve established industry companies and projects. More informations on the Foundation's Advisory Board is available at: http://foundation.gnome.org/about/ Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. From waldo.bastian@intel.com Thu Jun 22 13:26:06 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABAE43B0785; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 13:26:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13095-04; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 13:26:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fmsmga101-1.fm.intel.com (mga01.intel.com [192.55.52.88]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F9093B0731; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 13:26:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fmsmga001.fm.intel.com ([10.253.24.23]) by fmsmga101-1.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 22 Jun 2006 10:25:59 -0700 Received: from orsmsx335.jf.intel.com (HELO orsmsx335.amr.corp.intel.com) ([10.22.226.40]) by fmsmga001.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 22 Jun 2006 10:23:13 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.06,166,1149490800"; d="scan'208"; a="56897970:sNHT90202169617" Received: from orsmsx409.amr.corp.intel.com ([192.168.65.58]) by orsmsx335.amr.corp.intel.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 22 Jun 2006 10:23:12 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Intel joins the GNOME Foundation's Advisory Board Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 10:23:11 -0700 Message-ID: <8AEB79DC01BE994D8DE3FD02FA5B475B03DFAAAE@orsmsx409> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Intel joins the GNOME Foundation's Advisory Board thread-index: AcaWD46K6AKg5uJfSieruaiGax8vKQAAhTNA From: "Bastian, Waldo" To: "Vincent Untz" , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Jun 2006 17:23:12.0881 (UTC) FILETIME=[8A39EE10:01C69620] X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.56 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.039, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.56 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 15:54:11 -0400 Cc: advisory-board@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 17:26:07 -0000 >The GNOME Foundation is welcoming Intel as an Advisory Board member. >This is part of Intel's increasing commitment to GNOME and to the >free software desktop. > >We are delighted to have Intel on board: it will help us continue our >bet of combining the passion of the GNOME community with the need for >quality, stability and long term plans of big players who are >increasingly interested and involved in free software development. > >With Intel joining, the Advisory Board member now consists of twelve >established industry companies and projects. More informations on the >Foundation's Advisory Board is available at: > > http://foundation.gnome.org/about/ > > >Vincent Thanks Vincent, It has been a pleasure working with the GNOME community as part of Intel's OSDL and LSB efforts, and I hope that being on the GNOME Advisory Board will create an even more productive working relationship between us and the GNOME community. As you have observed, coming from a KDE background, it has at times been a challenge for me to zero in on the right people in the GNOME community to engage on matters of mutual interest. Our participation in the Advisory Board should make that process far easier. Through OSDL and LSB, bridging the gaps between industry leading Linux desktop environments for the benefit of users and application developers has been an important goal for us. We very much appreciate the opportunity work more closely with the GNOME community to realize that goal. I look forward to meeting with all of you next week at GUADEC. Waldo Bastian Linux Client Architect - Client Linux Foundation Technology Channel Platform Solutions Group Intel Corporation - http://www.intel.com/go/linux OSDL DTL Tech Board Chairman From gpoo@ubiobio.cl Tue Jun 27 13:52:11 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7D4C3B0083 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:52:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11203-01 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:52:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay.ubiobio.cl (atlas.dci.ubiobio.cl [146.83.195.21]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C63223B0168 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:51:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by forward.ubiobio.cl (Postfix) with ESMTP id D23DF4002A7 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:51:12 -0400 (CLT) Received: from pegasus.dci.ubiobio.cl ([146.83.195.11]) by localhost (antivirus.dci.ubiobio.cl [146.83.195.21]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04061-75 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:51:12 -0400 (CLT) Received: from mimos.local (proxlinux.epsevg.upc.es [147.83.156.10]) by pegasus.dci.ubiobio.cl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 503E9280035D for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:51:11 -0400 (CLT) Subject: Ask for schedule board's meetings From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Germ=E1n_Po=F3_Caama=F1o?= To: foundation-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:51:07 -0400 Message-Id: <1151430667.15979.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at ubiobio.cl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.464 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.464 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:52:12 -0000 After the GNOME Foundation AGM I got the feeling (probably I not the only one) that there is a communication problem about what they are doing and where they need helps from the members. Don't forget the Foundation are we all of us. As a member is our obligation to ask for information, for instance, ask for the minutes of the board's meetings. But, how to ask if we don't know when the meetings happen. We only know it happen every two week, but not exactly or if they didn't take place. So, I ask to the board to publish the schedule of the meetings for this year. I think it is a easy task for the board that can help us to control and ask for information and try to give to them a hand in any task they need. Best regards, -- Germán Poó-Caamaño http://www.ubiobio.cl/~gpoo/ Concepción - Chile From peter@newton.cx Wed May 31 20:32:09 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A418F3B009E for ; Wed, 31 May 2006 20:32:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26596-08 for ; Wed, 31 May 2006 20:32:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from us19.unix.fas.harvard.edu (us19.unix.fas.harvard.edu [140.247.35.199]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38FCD3B0087 for ; Wed, 31 May 2006 20:32:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [140.247.147.223] ([140.247.147.223]) by us19.unix.fas.harvard.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k510W3RQ020234 for ; Wed, 31 May 2006 20:32:05 -0400 From: Peter Williams To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149065540.5127.117.camel@localhost> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 20:32:01 -0400 Message-Id: <1149121922.10913.131.camel@beta.newton.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 (2.6.1-1.fc5.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.535 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.064, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.535 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 00:32:09 -0000 On Wed, 2006-05-31 at 10:49 -0400, Dan Winship wrote: > Murray Cumming wrote: > > I wouldn't feel optimistic about a code of conduct that didn't represent > > our current consensus. > ... > > However, there's no shortage of people saying both that > > - Some improvement in behaviour is necessary > > These points don't fit together. If we are just making the current tacit > CoC explicit, then we would expect no change in behavior. If we are > trying to change behavior, then the CoC can't just represent the current > consensus. I would think of the CoC as more of an (intentionally weak) enforcement mechanism, rather than a change in policy. If someone is being obnoxious, hopefully someone will drop an email and say something like, "Hey, try to keep the Code in mind, OK?" It seems that the worry with such an idea is that people will send emails more like, "Hey you violated the Code, you're not welcome in GNOME anymore." But we can try to avoid this with a sort of meta-CoC. Perhaps a paragraph along these lines: "* Be reasonable. This Code is just a set of suggestions for polite behavior. Everyone gets angry from time to time. Don't beat the Code of Conduct over the heads of others, and don't use it as a basis to bar people from participation in activities." (I haven't spent a while honing this language or anything.) Peter -- Peter Williams / peter@newton.cx From Glynn.Foster@Sun.COM Wed May 31 22:35:28 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E4463B0098 for ; Wed, 31 May 2006 22:35:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32041-01 for ; Wed, 31 May 2006 22:35:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 564493B007C for ; Wed, 31 May 2006 22:35:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-04.sun.com (d1-emea-04.sun.com [192.18.2.114] (may be forged)) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k512ZPg5022056 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 03:35:25 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-04.sun.com by d1-emea-04.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0500F01TV0CM00@d1-emea-04.sun.com> (original mail from Glynn.Foster@Sun.COM) for foundation-list@gnome.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 03:35:24 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.18.42.16] by d1-emea-04.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0500CXUTUVC660@d1-emea-04.sun.com> for foundation-list@gnome.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 03:35:23 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:38:44 +1200 From: Glynn Foster In-reply-to: <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> Sender: Glynn.Foster@Sun.COM To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-id: <447E5334.3000206@sun.com> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149065540.5127.117.camel@localhost> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> User-Agent: Mail/News 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060515) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.595 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.003, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.595 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 02:35:28 -0000 Hey, Jeff Waugh wrote: > I guess I'll just fall back on the evidence as I've seen it - the Ubuntu > Code of Conduct has communicated a very strong statement of intent, and > ensured (not "made" but "ensured") that the Ubuntu community is a great > place to be. > > But cf. my email about why GNOME people stick around - I totally object to > the suggestions that a Code of Conduct is only needed in desperate times. > That's poppycock. Yeah, I think it's a positive thing that GNOME to do and hope that we can work by. If it'll encourage more people to come and spend time in the project, I'm all in agreement. Glynn From gnome-foundation-list@m.gmane.org Thu Jun 1 05:42:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08DFB3B0CE0 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 05:42:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23565-02 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 05:42:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 821AE3B0D78 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 05:20:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from root by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1FljLW-0003fl-Ej for foundation-list@gnome.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:20:02 +0200 Received: from 213.91.219.2 ([213.91.219.2]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:20:02 +0200 Received: from yavor by 213.91.219.2 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:20:02 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: foundation-list@gnome.org From: Yavor Doganov Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:58:47 +0300 Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440605300709u669c5da2sa352f1f5fedf2b06@mail.gmail.com> <14439.194.138.18.131.1149000460.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060530151633.GB28961@bridgewayconsulting.com.au> <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> <177e83dd0605301003h77a01816hed9a3a1afb849709@mail.gmail.com> <447E0013.9030307@gnome.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.91.219.2 User-Agent: Pan/0.14.2.91 (As She Crawled Across the Table (Debian GNU/Linux)) X-What_are_we_fighting_for: NO SOFTWARE PATENTS! NO BANANA REPUBLIC! Sender: news X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.542 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.441, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=1.5, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.542 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 09:42:40 -0000 On Wed, 31 May 2006 16:44:03 -0400, Tristan Van Berkom wrote: > GNOME is Free Software and part of the GNU project [...] > If the above statement is indeed true, I wonder where any misrepresentations > are, if they can be rectified and what can be done in general to improve > the overall interpretation of what the GNOME project is. If you read Planet GNOME and some of the mailing lists, you'll notice that many developers use the term "Open Source" and call the operating system "Linux", instead of GNU or GNU/Linux. Some of them were even excited when a popular non-free software was relicensed recently, allowing easier installation by the users, but still remaining non-free. If the core developers and project participants do not value and stand firm behind the ideals of the GNU Project and the Free Software Movement, you cannot expect that these ideals will touch the hearts of other people, particularly the "minority" groups in question. -- JID: doganov@jabber.minus273.org From jdub@waugh.id.au Thu Jun 1 06:25:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A33F3B0141 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:25:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26622-08 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:25:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF6F73B008B for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:25:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (unknown [203.217.18.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC7463CB6A for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 20:24:59 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 966C440B4; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 20:01:27 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 20:01:27 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060601100126.GA5214@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440605300709u669c5da2sa352f1f5fedf2b06@mail.gmail.com> <14439.194.138.18.131.1149000460.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060530151633.GB28961@bridgewayconsulting.com.au> <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> <177e83dd0605301003h77a01816hed9a3a1afb849709@mail.gmail.com> <447E0013.9030307@gnome.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 Reply-By: Sun Jun 4 19:54:21 EST 2006 X-Uptime: 19:54:21 up 51 min, 6 users, load average: 0.27, 0.40, 0.40 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 10:25:03 -0000 > If you read Planet GNOME and some of the mailing lists, you'll notice that > many developers use the term "Open Source" and call the operating system > "Linux", instead of GNU or GNU/Linux. Some of them were even excited when > a popular non-free software was relicensed recently, allowing easier > installation by the users, but still remaining non-free. > > If the core developers and project participants do not value and stand > firm behind the ideals of the GNU Project and the Free Software Movement, > you cannot expect that these ideals will touch the hearts of other people, > particularly the "minority" groups in question. Oh man, come on, this is silly behaviour. GNOME developers are *passionate* about Free Software, fiercely so. We're here to make sure that Free Software gets into the hands of normal users, not just geeks. However, we *do not* have our minds held hostage by dogma, and dogma doesn't drive freedom for *anyone*. We're all consenting adults, we can make our own decisions about what's good and what's not - but don't think for a minute that GNOME, as an organisation and social group is not pursuing a fierce Free Software agenda. - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2007: Sydney, Australia http://lca2007.linux.org.au/ "(Hint: IRC clients don't usually do DVD and VCD playback)." - Bastien Nocera From anne@oestergaard.nu Thu Jun 1 07:24:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D0113B00EE for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 07:24:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30376-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 07:23:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero0.cybercity.dk (cicero0.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.52]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D50F63B0119 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 07:23:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero0.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68F86678C70 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 13:23:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 164FB74FA04 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 13:23:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 22398 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2006 11:23:54 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 1 Jun 2006 11:23:54 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Bill Haneman In-Reply-To: <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149065540.5127.117.camel@localhost> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:23:54 +0200 Message-Id: <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.533 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.066, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.533 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:24:00 -0000 ons, 31 05 2006 kl. 20:38 +0100, skrev Bill Haneman: > On Wed, 2006-05-31 at 19:25, Tristan Van Berkom wrote: > > > Nobody will be driven away by that, people might be driven away by > > us stating that "you now are part of a community with a code of conduct". Actually if persons are driven away by not being able to accept rules of good conduct or The GNOME Ethics as we might prefer to call them then so be it. IMHO. > I don't agree. Every community has a code of conduct, implied or > explicit, IMO. Anyhow, there's no real enforcement mechanism, so I > don't see this as a realistic concern. > > ANY change or statement with a "policy" feel carries the risk of > alienating *somebody*, but that doesn't mean that embracing anarchy is > better. I have personally had the feeling over the past couple of years that the general atmosphere in the GNOME community has hardened. I joined the community in 2001 when I meet you all at GUADEC in Copenhagen. My reason for doing so was that it was the kindest most helpful group of people (although mostly white western males) that I had met in FLOSS. I think that being inventive is not equal to being anarchistic. Anarchistic is not a virtue in my book. Besides I find that it is not clever not to be able to accept the normal way of defining a well functioning democracy for all. Social rules and ethics will definitely be a competition parameter also for peoples personal choice of software now and in the future. > As an aside, I think the gender issue is important, and probably does > reflect some "cultural" issues within our community (GNOME and the FOSS > community in general). Members of a community rarely understand the > aspects of their culture that cause others to be alienated or > disinterested, even if they understand why they themselves feel included > and motivated. I fully agree with Bill and others here and I think we have to establish a gender action plan within GNOME, Ubuntu etc. We have got the opportunity to start this good trend! I do not say this to start a new long debat in this tread. But it has become obvious that the 1% participation of women in FLOSS is embarrassing and we need to have a look at why this is the case and make some cultural changes. I know that the Computer Science Department at the University of Gothenburg in Sweden has a gender action plan: http://www.informatik.gu.se/dokument/dokument.xsp?group=jamstalldhet&menu=org I think that many other universities and even GNOME and Ubuntu could get a lot of inspiration here. (Provided it gets translated from Swedish into a language you understand.) One of the purposes is to get more women in to research and teaching. Changing the mono culture is a vital goal. But to summon up what has happened in this debate: Most of the persons who has expressed themselves in this tread are positive to Murrays suggestion. So I think we should go for it. We might call it GNOME Ethics if "rules" has a disturbing ring to it. Anne From murrayc@murrayc.com Thu Jun 1 08:03:32 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1112C3B0D51 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:03:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00538-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:03:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com (webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com [66.33.201.159]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3998D3B0D3C for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:02:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.murrayc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D998A2CDA7; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 04:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 194.138.18.131 (proxying for unknown) (SquirrelMail authenticated user murrayc@murrayc.com) by webmail.murrayc.com with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 13:56:01 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> In-Reply-To: <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149065540.5127.117.camel@localhost> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 13:56:01 +0200 (CEST) From: "Murray Cumming" To: Anne =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.556 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.043, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.556 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 12:03:32 -0000 Anne wrote: [snip] > I do not say this to start a new long debat in this tread. But it has > become obvious that the 1% participation of women in FLOSS is > embarrassing and we need to have a look at why this is the case and make > some cultural changes. > > I know that the Computer Science Department at the University of > Gothenburg in Sweden has a gender action plan: > http://www.informatik.gu.se/dokument/dokument.xsp?group=jamstalldhet&menu=org > > I think that many other universities and even GNOME and Ubuntu could get > a lot of inspiration here. (Provided it gets translated from Swedish > into a language you understand.) [snip] Realistically, this plans needs to be written by you. Others will help you with it, but you need to create it and drive it. As a start, I think we have some definite things to try, based on the Flosspolls report: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-women-list/2006-May/msg00001.html At the least, it would be great to read the policies or plans that other science/technical organisations have created, particularly if they have proven successful already. For instance, a list of web addresses, or summaries. In English. You seem like the most well-informed person to do this. Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From luis.villa@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 08:13:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15D1F3B0132 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:13:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01060-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:13:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.200]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 043DA3B012D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:13:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so231597wxd for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 05:13:23 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=M7bRKyNesxOOt+gZaYV1MUy25dv6JMJkayJ3gFzHzPJvfGr3qCJftkHHnjf3gi9gUXLf0cU44gY2K3koUsPKQanX3t6HgTiUZez4vJLgj1VLW5Fh47YL+5aBb+rn/f63MCOnH2lfFwkirZJpcROmSo+ATikyCcARXoGuw4jXOAk= Received: by 10.70.69.8 with SMTP id r8mr613225wxa; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 05:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.2 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 05:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:13:23 -0400 From: "Luis Villa" To: "Murray Cumming" In-Reply-To: <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 12:13:27 -0000 On 6/1/06, Murray Cumming wrote: > Anne wrote: > [snip] > > I do not say this to start a new long debat in this tread. But it has > > become obvious that the 1% participation of women in FLOSS is > > embarrassing and we need to have a look at why this is the case and make > > some cultural changes. > > > > I know that the Computer Science Department at the University of > > Gothenburg in Sweden has a gender action plan: > > http://www.informatik.gu.se/dokument/dokument.xsp?group=jamstalldhet&menu=org > > > > I think that many other universities and even GNOME and Ubuntu could get > > a lot of inspiration here. (Provided it gets translated from Swedish > > into a language you understand.) > [snip] > > Realistically, this plans needs to be written by you. Others will help you > with it, but you need to create it and drive it. Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by someone with such experience. Luis From murrayc@murrayc.com Thu Jun 1 08:39:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4C7A3B0125 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:39:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02694-03 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:39:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com (webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com [66.33.201.159]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D48423B00FF for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:39:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.murrayc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1850D2D23D; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 05:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 194.138.18.131 (proxying for unknown) (SquirrelMail authenticated user murrayc@murrayc.com) by webmail.murrayc.com with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:33:29 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:33:29 +0200 (CEST) From: "Murray Cumming" To: "Luis Villa" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.557 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.042, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.557 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , Murray Cumming , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 12:39:50 -0000 > On 6/1/06, Murray Cumming wrote: >> Anne wrote: >> [snip] >> > I do not say this to start a new long debat in this tread. But it has >> > become obvious that the 1% participation of women in FLOSS is >> > embarrassing and we need to have a look at why this is the case and >> make >> > some cultural changes. >> > >> > I know that the Computer Science Department at the University of >> > Gothenburg in Sweden has a gender action plan: >> > http://www.informatik.gu.se/dokument/dokument.xsp?group=jamstalldhet&menu=org >> > >> > I think that many other universities and even GNOME and Ubuntu could >> get >> > a lot of inspiration here. (Provided it gets translated from Swedish >> > into a language you understand.) >> [snip] >> >> Realistically, this plans needs to be written by you. Others will help >> you >> with it, but you need to create it and drive it. > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > someone with such experience. Hmm, how about people working together? It just seems that the person who most most obviously wants this should be the person trying to make it happen. Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Thu Jun 1 08:50:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E761A3B00AB for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:50:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03032-07 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:50:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E8C033B0090 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:50:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from turing.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.16] helo=turing.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 1 Jun 2006 13:50:48 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 13:50:48 +0100 (IST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440605300709u669c5da2sa352f1f5fedf2b06@mail.gmail.com> <14439.194.138.18.131.1149000460.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060530151633.GB28961@bridgewayconsulting.com.au> <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> <177e83dd0605301003h77a01816hed9a3a1afb849709@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 12:50:52 -0000 On Wed, 31 May 2006, Richard Stallman wrote: > Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 15:13:33 -0400 > From: Richard Stallman > To: zuh@iki.fi > Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org > Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct > > So I would definitely agree that given an idea of contributing (code), > women will easily ask who will pay for it where men might not. Maybe > they consider open source more as "working" than as a hobby or a way > social networking or even as a way to educate oneself. > > Perhaps this is a consequence of presenting GNOME as an "open source" > activity. That term excludes the idealism of free software, and > invites people to look at the matter in purely practical terms -- > which is what these women then do. > > Perhaps they would understand better why it's worth spending time > unpaid on our campaign if you tell them that this is the Free Software > Movement, and that the goal of our campaign is freedom for us and for > everyone. If greater clarity and emphasis on freedom is the goal why not say _Freedom Software_ and avoid the abiguity which in part lead other to come up with different terminology? -- Alan From dneary@free.fr Thu Jun 1 09:03:11 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 571E73B01BA for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:03:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04032-05 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:03:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp12.wanadoo.fr (smtp12.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.20]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD9103B01B4 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:03:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf1202.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 05B421C000A2; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:03:06 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060601130307236.05B421C000A2@mwinf1202.orange.fr Message-ID: <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:03:04 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (Windows/20060308) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Luis Villa References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:03:11 -0000 Hi, Luis Villa wrote: > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > someone with such experience. That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a developer from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women involved in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who's better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From luis.villa@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 09:05:29 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB9D83B0213 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:05:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04316-06 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:05:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.198]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 631D63B01F3 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:05:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so240207wxd for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:05:26 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=BYK8lFiLJO2Ne9nZnBwCpaSMHLj/eF+Yve99+fxle95gejqE1Awkf+irqEgrFDLJVaJXbiziS8zWvNXLmkJGfP4p3kJQf/tOBDd7r6d+KgMAdM+DqPT7lTQAgS1L4cgq4N9+8G0/kBVIC9CUKcncJ4u+u6lMyAlrSBwHZV3EH34= Received: by 10.70.6.1 with SMTP id 1mr693092wxf; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:05:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.2 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:05:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:05:26 -0400 From: "Luis Villa" To: "Dave Neary" In-Reply-To: <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:05:30 -0000 On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: > > Hi, > > Luis Villa wrote: > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > > someone with such experience. > > That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a developer > from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women involved > in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct > discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who's > better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? A female geek? Luis From jdub@waugh.id.au Thu Jun 1 09:08:05 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2BE63B0C0E for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:08:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04423-09 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:08:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1F8C3B0134 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:08:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (unknown [203.217.18.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7BA53CDC4 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 23:07:59 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0CBAD40B4; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 23:07:48 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 23:07:48 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060601130748.GE5203@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440605300709u669c5da2sa352f1f5fedf2b06@mail.gmail.com> <14439.194.138.18.131.1149000460.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060530151633.GB28961@bridgewayconsulting.com.au> <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> <177e83dd0605301003h77a01816hed9a3a1afb849709@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: Reply-By: Sun Jun 4 23:06:25 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 23:06:25 up 2:59, 5 users, load average: 3.75, 2.14, 1.64 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:08:05 -0000 > If greater clarity and emphasis on freedom is the goal why not say > _Freedom Software_ and avoid the abiguity which in part lead other to come > up with different terminology? This is not a discussion for this list - please take this off-list if you wish to pursue it. Thanks, - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ From baris@teamforce.name.tr Thu Jun 1 09:27:37 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DD163B016D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:27:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05899-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:27:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nerd.com.tr (nerd.com.tr [69.60.117.115]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC3303B0077 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:27:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nerd.com.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1406B784E6A; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:31:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nerd.com.tr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (nerd.com.tr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15072-01; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:30:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (unknown [81.213.157.51]) by nerd.com.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94F7C784E68; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:30:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Baris Cicek To: Luis Villa In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-nF1xqzLT528vovi3vaHu" Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 16:27:19 +0300 Message-Id: <1149168439.2507.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 (2.6.0-1) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at nerd.com.tr X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.227 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.372, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.227 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:27:37 -0000 --=-nF1xqzLT528vovi3vaHu Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Actually, it should be someone who is able to detect possible obstacles that put Asians or Women out of GNOME (or in general Free Software). I doubt that anyone have any emprical study about that. But is it harsh and rude behavior of developers or the community? Or technical limits? Or even communication problems? (ie. English knowledge or something).=20 First thing is to come up with a reasonable problems that new comers would come across. And later people should follow a pathway to get rid of these obstacles.=20 Actually Code of Conduct may only be successful for new comers if we detect those problems correctly.=20 For that reason, ideas of the fresh community members is more important. If you're experienced then either you did not have any problem or you might even forgot those problems you'd encountered in past. Though, you might still remember old days, but chances are low.=20 IMHO, Code Of Conduct (or GNOME Ethics) should be written for that very reason. Experienced members of the community might and would forget the problems for newcomers. Something should remind them. But still first thing to do is to detect obstacles first. Else, outcome of this work, won't get further than saying "Be nice to each other" with rhetoric.=20 On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 09:05 -0400, Luis Villa wrote: > On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > Luis Villa wrote: > > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > > > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > > > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > > > someone with such experience. > > > > That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a developer > > from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women involve= d > > in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct > > discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who'= s > > better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? >=20 > A female geek? >=20 > Luis > _______________________________________________ > foundation-list mailing list > foundation-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list --=-nF1xqzLT528vovi3vaHu Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEfus362fLHU++kcURAlt/AKDgbHg3XB0HAS5zZDe4MiJSIFoVsACfR8wZ oEU7oK/r87izEkFQB/pm6dU= =aEcr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-nF1xqzLT528vovi3vaHu-- From anne@oestergaard.nu Thu Jun 1 09:32:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A2083B0D3A for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:32:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06362-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:32:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero0.cybercity.dk (cicero0.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.52]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 928443B0C49 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:32:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero0.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 317E1679467 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:32:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id CDC4774FAF2 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:32:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 23827 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2006 13:32:44 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 1 Jun 2006 13:32:44 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Luis Villa In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:32:43 +0200 Message-Id: <1149168764.6894.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.533 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.066, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.533 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:32:56 -0000 tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 09:05 -0400, skrev Luis Villa: > On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > Luis Villa wrote: > > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > > > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > > > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > > > someone with such experience. > > > > That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a developer > > from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women involved > > in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct > > discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who's > > better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? > > A female geek? I would like to hear your definition of a geek, please. Anne From dneary@free.fr Thu Jun 1 09:39:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC0FF3B0D35 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:39:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06719-08 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:39:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.wanadoo.fr (smtp2.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.29]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E48C3B0C49 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:39:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf0203.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 638591C001F4; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:39:31 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060601133931407.638591C001F4@mwinf0203.orange.fr Message-ID: <447EEE11.4000500@free.fr> Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:39:29 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (Windows/20060308) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Anne_=D8stergaard?= References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> <1149168764.6894.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <1149168764.6894.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:39:35 -0000 Anne Østergaard wrote: > tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 09:05 -0400, skrev Luis Villa: >> On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: >>> Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who's >>> better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? >> A female geek? > > I would like to hear your definition of a geek, please. >From my point of view, it's someone who's passionate about software (or more generally, about computers). The GNOME project needs people who are passionate about the freedom of free software who aren't *necessarily* passionate about software, but even then, for tasks other than being a developer, a passion in free software is probably a prerequisite. Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From anne@oestergaard.nu Thu Jun 1 09:39:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 750413B0D40 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:39:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06806-04 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:39:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67D673B0D2E for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:39:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user5.cybercity.dk (user5.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.51]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15A5F2455B0 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:39:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user5.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 9D19C3A1BDE for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:39:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 23975 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2006 13:39:32 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 1 Jun 2006 13:39:32 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Baris Cicek In-Reply-To: <1149168439.2507.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> <1149168439.2507.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:39:31 +0200 Message-Id: <1149169171.6894.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.534 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.065, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.534 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Dave Neary , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:39:36 -0000 tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 16:27 +0300, skrev Baris Cicek: > Actually, it should be someone who is able to detect possible obstacles > that put Asians or Women out of GNOME (or in general Free Software). I > doubt that anyone have any emprical study about that. But is it harsh > and rude behavior of developers or the community? Or technical limits? > Or even communication problems? (ie. English knowledge or something). > > First thing is to come up with a reasonable problems that new comers > would come across. And later people should follow a pathway to get rid > of these obstacles. > > Actually Code of Conduct may only be successful for new comers if we > detect those problems correctly. > > For that reason, ideas of the fresh community members is more important. > If you're experienced then either you did not have any problem or you > might even forgot those problems you'd encountered in past. Though, you > might still remember old days, but chances are low. > > IMHO, Code Of Conduct (or GNOME Ethics) should be written for that very > reason. Experienced members of the community might and would forget the > problems for newcomers. Something should remind them. > > But still first thing to do is to detect obstacles first. Else, outcome > of this work, won't get further than saying "Be nice to each other" with > rhetoric. I agree. A question is when do you feel you belong to the GNOME community? When there is a critical mass that is just like you and when you feel comfortable that a larger group share your way of thinking and ways of communicating? Anne > > > On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 09:05 -0400, Luis Villa wrote: > > On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Luis Villa wrote: > > > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > > > > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > > > > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > > > > someone with such experience. > > > > > > That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a developer > > > from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women involved > > > in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct > > > discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who's > > > better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? > > > > A female geek? > > > > Luis > > _______________________________________________ > > foundation-list mailing list > > foundation-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list > _______________________________________________ > foundation-list mailing list > foundation-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list From luis.villa@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 09:43:23 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF5F03B0173 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:43:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07305-02 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:43:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.196]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55A5F3B016F for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:43:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so246552wxd for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:43:17 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=UPMgxGsuCGu6P9N+IaztKhzWZWnUDGjuB1eu40MxK1NuAYJkPdnf/o0M+7UTRbphbBCZHji5W4uRedT5Trtz+xk2RNZjiehC/nOopS/OtST53stjQnuc+7XXuh50Weobl+tQK3djpBRujGIbYjkUE2DLA14rWpAxVg7jLqLYQt4= Received: by 10.70.40.12 with SMTP id n12mr737638wxn; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.2 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2cb10c440606010643x1dfe5e48mbcf68a2fd0352fae@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:43:16 -0400 From: "Luis Villa" To: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Anne_=D8stergaard?=" In-Reply-To: <1149168764.6894.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> <1149168764.6894.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:43:23 -0000 On 6/1/06, Anne =D8stergaard wrote: > tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 09:05 -0400, skrev Luis Villa: > > On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Luis Villa wrote: > > > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > > > > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer= *- > > > > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > > > > someone with such experience. > > > > > > That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a develop= er > > > from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women invol= ved > > > in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct > > > discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so wh= o's > > > better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-gee= k? > > > > A female geek? > > I would like to hear your definition of a geek, please. For the purposes of this discussion, 'someone actively involved in the development of our software through the traditional means used by our community'. This need not be direct software development (as everyone knows I do very little of that) but it does mean involvement in creating the product that we ship, and it does mean at least some participation in the mainstream of the community- desktop-devel-list, #gnome-hackers, etc. Luis From luis.villa@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 09:44:24 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5D663B016F for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:44:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07262-08 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:44:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.204]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 506EE3B0C49 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:44:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so246728wxd for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:44:21 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=GpGdnRDgVSS/SWZsX5U/sj0RXmGEYdgzgsLRzSM+2rgcLIebl2EPo+MS4FanUY2lt0S3HLELDWKLXUSbRRWSN6qQyccniZtM40z1wcvwVutMlhGHZPV/Mzbh3m8X54uRlE259+XeTT7pIYL1LFWvkKL6SI6TjBXi5UKvO5I6d5s= Received: by 10.70.6.1 with SMTP id 1mr746819wxf; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:44:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.2 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:44:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2cb10c440606010644s5af56377jb43c1e88b33192b2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:44:21 -0400 From: "Luis Villa" To: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Anne_=D8stergaard?=" In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010643x1dfe5e48mbcf68a2fd0352fae@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> <1149168764.6894.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2cb10c440606010643x1dfe5e48mbcf68a2fd0352fae@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:44:24 -0000 On 6/1/06, Luis Villa wrote: > On 6/1/06, Anne =D8stergaard wrote: > > tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 09:05 -0400, skrev Luis Villa: > > > On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > Luis Villa wrote: > > > > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > > > > > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a develop= er*- > > > > > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > > > > > someone with such experience. > > > > > > > > That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a devel= oper > > > > from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women inv= olved > > > > in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct > > > > discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so = who's > > > > better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-g= eek? > > > > > > A female geek? > > > > I would like to hear your definition of a geek, please. > > For the purposes of this discussion, 'someone actively involved in the > development of our software through the traditional means used by our > community'. This need not be direct software development (as everyone > knows I do very little of that) but it does mean involvement in > creating the product that we ship, and it does mean at least some > participation in the mainstream of the community- desktop-devel-list, > #gnome-hackers, etc. And I might add that the reason this is important is that it seems to me insane that someone could devise policy to get people involved in something they have not themselves participated in. Luis From anne@oestergaard.nu Thu Jun 1 09:59:39 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 831943B01C4 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:59:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08905-06 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:59:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero1.cybercity.dk (cicero1.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55B103B009D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:59:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user3.cybercity.dk (user3.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.36]) by cicero1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39B0D63ED41 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:59:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user3.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id E770393E9B for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:59:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 24279 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2006 13:59:34 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 1 Jun 2006 13:59:34 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Luis Villa In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:59:34 +0200 Message-Id: <1149170374.6894.73.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.535 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.064, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.535 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:59:39 -0000 tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 08:13 -0400, skrev Luis Villa: > On 6/1/06, Murray Cumming wrote: > > Anne wrote: > > [snip] > > > I do not say this to start a new long debat in this tread. But it has > > > become obvious that the 1% participation of women in FLOSS is > > > embarrassing and we need to have a look at why this is the case and make > > > some cultural changes. > > > > > > I know that the Computer Science Department at the University of > > > Gothenburg in Sweden has a gender action plan: > > > http://www.informatik.gu.se/dokument/dokument.xsp?group=jamstalldhet&menu=org > > > > > > I think that many other universities and even GNOME and Ubuntu could get > > > a lot of inspiration here. (Provided it gets translated from Swedish > > > into a language you understand.) > > [snip] > > > > Realistically, this plans needs to be written by you. Others will help you > > with it, but you need to create it and drive it. > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > someone with such experience. The FLOSSPOLS report was so eyeopening because it was written by a man who had to learn about these matters first and had a professional scientific experience and tool case to use. I will work with the whole of the women in FLOSS community as well as with the persons who wrote the FLOSSPOLS reports and others who have written scientific reports and with those of you who are interested. Just because you can't cover the whole spectrum personally does not mean that I am not entitled to have an opinion. I have experience in gender issues on a professional basis in the Nordic Countries, EU, and UN which might help. I attended the UN conference in Beijing representing the Nordic Council. Besides Luis I have manufactured a FLOSS nerd many years ago so I have access to free in house expertise on the technical matters. Have you by the way had time to read the FLOSSPOLS report yourself? Anne From hobbit@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk Thu Jun 1 10:28:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 033D03B009D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:28:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11133-10 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:28:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk [81.2.110.251]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F8913B0262 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:28:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (8.13.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id k51Dg9xP016043 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:42:09 +0100 Received: (from hobbit@localhost) by lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k51Dg8iZ016042 for foundation-list@gnome.org; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:42:08 +0100 Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:42:08 +0100 From: Telsa Gwynne To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060601134208.GA14011@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.503 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.096, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.503 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:28:54 -0000 Ar Tue, May 30, 2006 at 01:04:43PM +0200, ysgrifennodd Murray Cumming: > I don't think we need a whole organisation to police it. At the least, it > should just be how we expect people to behave on mailing lists and IRC and > it could be up to the administrator of that list or channel to decide > whether somone's conduct is unacceptable. But maybe some people would be > reassured by the existence of some group that they could go to in extreme > circumstances. > > Here's a simple start: > http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct > > What do you think? What else would you like to see there? I think this is a long-overdue thing to do. I also think that there is no fun being part of a "community" which is actually arguing the toss on whether "we think people should be courteous to each other within this community" is a good thing or not. Telsa From liam@holoweb.net Thu Jun 1 10:32:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6566A3B0225 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:32:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11652-07 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:32:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hd-t1637cl.privatedns.com (ip-209-172-34-239.reverse.privatedns.com [209.172.34.239]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7180F3B023E for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:32:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 28816 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2006 14:41:31 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO dell.barefootcomputing.com) (127.0.0.1) by hd-t1637cl.privatedns.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2006 14:41:31 -0000 From: Liam R E Quin To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149065540.5127.117.camel@localhost> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 10:29:53 -0400 Message-Id: <1149172193.8916.108.camel@dell.barefootcomputing.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1-1mdk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.564 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.035, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.564 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:32:47 -0000 On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 13:23 +0200, Anne Østergaard wrote: [...] > I have personally had the feeling over the past couple of years that the > general atmosphere in the GNOME community has hardened. Although I am not sure what you mean by hardened here, it doesn't sound good. > I fully agree with Bill and others here and I think we have to establish > a gender action plan within GNOME, Ubuntu etc. A non-discrimination policy would be a useful thing to do. The city of Toronto has a fairly good one, devised in conjunction with a large number of minority groups over a long period: http://www.toronto.ca/grants/pdf/declaration_non_discrimination_policy.pdf It was printed on a huge multilingual poster (including Braille) and distributed widely. Creation or adoption of such a policy is not the same as saying that there is discrimination, of course -- it is saying that discrimination isn't OK. Gnome has done ground-breaking work on accessibility, on internationalisation, and on usability. This work ought to be sending a strong message that diversity is welcomed. Beyond that I am not sure how to get more women involved. One difficulty is cultural in many parts of the world, unfortunately: girls are often trained to turn to boys when something needs fixing. To get back on topic of the original thread, I'd rather see some non-discrimination non-violence policies in place and then a code of conduct would consist of "follow the guidelines". Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org From luis.villa@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 11:11:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91A883B023D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:11:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14988-04 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:11:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.206]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 492373B01C4 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:11:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so262700wxd for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 08:11:10 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=c7nCkDAeUk9IARaAuoVqYt1X9YWo84LfbEM3sclWHemKQVbV6XZwhimTvwKq3L7pxQHE+osmIJDrNectrnGDL6lD3NLgBJO3tf9krWJaNK9P7mHIyFopDtnCN3soWOcj6dmTUZqcs/v2wRK7V/1rovRn7brKfqTNc4J/9yQMHak= Received: by 10.70.89.7 with SMTP id m7mr842070wxb; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 08:11:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.2 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:11:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2cb10c440606010811p27d3a2cfk1d834f6e2ca01d74@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:11:10 -0400 From: "Luis Villa" To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20060601134208.GA14011@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060601134208.GA14011@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:11:13 -0000 On 6/1/06, Telsa Gwynne wrote: > Ar Tue, May 30, 2006 at 01:04:43PM +0200, ysgrifennodd Murray Cumming: > > I don't think we need a whole organisation to police it. At the least, it > > should just be how we expect people to behave on mailing lists and IRC and > > it could be up to the administrator of that list or channel to decide > > whether somone's conduct is unacceptable. But maybe some people would be > > reassured by the existence of some group that they could go to in extreme > > circumstances. > > > > Here's a simple start: > > http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct > > > > What do you think? What else would you like to see there? > > I think this is a long-overdue thing to do. > > I also think that there is no fun being part of a "community" which is > actually arguing the toss on whether "we think people should be courteous > to each other within this community" is a good thing or not. I don't think anyone is arguing against being courteous; I'm certainly not. I just think we'd be better off focusing on actually making people more courteous, instead of writing rules about it. Luis From david.bolter@utoronto.ca Thu Jun 1 11:26:26 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5FB23B0D6C for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:26:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16176-02 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:26:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bureau8.utcc.utoronto.ca (bureau8.utcc.utoronto.ca [128.100.132.18]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CC433B027D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:26:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from otter.atrc.utoronto.ca ([142.150.154.224] EHLO [142.150.154.224] ident: IDENT-NOT-QUERIED [port 36999]) by bureau8.utcc.utoronto.ca with ESMTP id <25261-25808>; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:23:26 -0400 Message-ID: <447F066B.3020108@utoronto.ca> Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:23:23 -0400 From: David Bolter User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060420) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Luis Villa References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060601134208.GA14011@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> <2cb10c440606010811p27d3a2cfk1d834f6e2ca01d74@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010811p27d3a2cfk1d834f6e2ca01d74@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.564 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.035, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.564 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:26:27 -0000 Luis Villa wrote: > On 6/1/06, Telsa Gwynne wrote: >> Ar Tue, May 30, 2006 at 01:04:43PM +0200, ysgrifennodd Murray Cumming: >> > I don't think we need a whole organisation to police it. At the >> least, it >> > should just be how we expect people to behave on mailing lists and >> IRC and >> > it could be up to the administrator of that list or channel to decide >> > whether somone's conduct is unacceptable. But maybe some people >> would be >> > reassured by the existence of some group that they could go to in >> extreme >> > circumstances. >> > >> > Here's a simple start: >> > http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct >> > >> > What do you think? What else would you like to see there? >> >> I think this is a long-overdue thing to do. >> >> I also think that there is no fun being part of a "community" which is >> actually arguing the toss on whether "we think people should be >> courteous >> to each other within this community" is a good thing or not. > > I don't think anyone is arguing against being courteous; I'm certainly > not. I just think we'd be better off focusing on actually making > people more courteous, instead of writing rules about it. > I sense we are all close to agreeing here... I think the fear is the idea that rules will restrict us. The GPL is very restrictive but isn't that what makes GPL software so free? I like the idea of having guidelines that suggest the protection of people from discrimination. Being a shy Canadian... if I was on IRC witnessing silliness I would like the option of politely pointing someone to a guidelines wiki page than actually arguing with them. cheers, David From uraeus@linuxrising.org Thu Jun 1 11:36:19 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 675EB3B0DDC for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:36:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16890-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:36:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx1.es6.egwn.net (server02.es6.egwn.net [195.10.6.12]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1B253B02A2 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:36:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.235] (core.fluendo.com [195.10.6.237]) by mx1.es6.egwn.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 788BA4F8310 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:36:15 +0200 (CEST) From: Christian Fredrik Kalager Schaller To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149065540.5127.117.camel@localhost> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 17:34:53 +0200 Message-Id: <1149176093.2487.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 (2.6.1-1.fc5.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.056 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.057, BAYES_50=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -0.056 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:36:19 -0000 On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 13:23 +0200, Anne Østergaard wrote: > I have personally had the feeling over the past couple of years that the > general atmosphere in the GNOME community has hardened. > I don't think its has hardened as much as grown older. Going back 5 years we where 'all' in our early/mid twenties or late teens with a lot extra energy and exploring a new frontier. Today a lot of the same people are around, getting close to or having passed thirty. Hair is thinning, greying or receding, bellies growing and the long term effect of a coke and pizza diet is taking its toll on both mind and body. These people have grown wise with age, but also their patience and energy to help newbie number 1000 who asks a less informed question have fallen. So answers tend either to not be forthcoming or being short often feeling a bit curt, maybe just a 'sorry WONTFIX'. The regrowth of younger developers, who might have the energy to devote to helping the lost noobs, tend to want to defer answering questions to the old wizards in the fear of saying something wrong as things have also grown more complicated since those early days. I don't think we can solve this apart from enforcing retirement from the community once passed 30 to keep our average young and energetic :) Christian From alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk Thu Jun 1 11:39:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E01953B02D6 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:39:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17200-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:39:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from out.lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (unknown [81.2.110.250]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E049C3B0215 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:39:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by out.lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k51Dve6a014608; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:00:22 +0100 Received: (from alan@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.4/8.13.4/Submit) id k51Dvd2O014606; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:57:39 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: alan set sender to alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk using -f From: Alan Cox To: Murray Cumming In-Reply-To: <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:57:33 +0100 Message-Id: <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.3 (2.2.3-2.fc4) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.593 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.006, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.593 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:39:56 -0000 On Iau, 2006-06-01 at 14:33 +0200, Murray Cumming wrote: > Hmm, how about people working together? It just seems that the person who > most most obviously wants this should be the person trying to make it > happen. I'd be wary of pursuing just the "women in GNOME" issue, because many of the same things put off far more than just women. Running around shouting "pants off" is not, for example, very compatible with the Japanese cultural expectations. Also if "Code of Conduct" is too strong then "Expected Behaviour" perhaps. Personally I don't see a problem with "Code of Conduct" in that it deals with acting for, speaking for, representing or being part of Gnome, or when using its facilities. It isn't too much to ask for people to keep other stuff elsewhere, or to engage in other incompatible activities from a non-gnome email address or on a different irc network. Alan From shaunm@gnome.org Thu Jun 1 11:51:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E25B3B0215 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:51:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17493-09 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:51:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wolfram.com (mailhub.wolfram.com [140.177.10.16]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC8F63B02D6 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:51:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shaunmlx.wri.wolfram.com (shaunmlx.wri.wolfram.com [140.177.4.54]) (authenticated bits=0) by wolfram.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k51FpH0N012193 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:51:18 -0500 From: Shaun McCance To: Dave Neary In-Reply-To: <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440605300709u669c5da2sa352f1f5fedf2b06@mail.gmail.com> <14439.194.138.18.131.1149000460.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060530151633.GB28961@bridgewayconsulting.com.au> <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 10:51:17 -0500 Message-Id: <1149177077.31607.13.camel@shaunmlx> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.527 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.072, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.527 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming , Davyd Madeley Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:51:45 -0000 On Tue, 2006-05-30 at 17:31 +0200, Dave Neary wrote: > Hi, > > Davyd Madeley wrote: > > Also of interest, a (female) colleague asked where we're getting our > > 1% contribution statistic from. It sounds believable, but is it > > people with CVS accounts, or does it include translators who send > > translations to their i18n team leader. Did someone just look > > through a list of names and guess the genders? Similarly for > > "asianness" (sic). Are we just using the domain names on their > > email addresses? > > The 1% comes from the FLOSS-POLS report on women in free software, among > others. Hanna Wallach's presented a 1.5% figure from that result before: > http://grandtextauto.gatech.edu/2005/11/22/debian-women/ > > That's 1.5% in free software compared to 28% in proprietary software. I'd be interested in seeing the raw numbers. My experience in the proprietary software industry is that there tends to be a reasonably high percentage of women in technical jobs that aren't necessarily programming (though they may involve some programming), such as project management, tech writing, graphic design, and quality assurance. All of these positions tend to be under-represented in the free software world, at least among volunteer efforts. I'm not trying to say that we need more of these positions just to inflate our gender numbers (though I will say we need more of these positions for other reasons). All I'm saying is that the free and proprietary numbers might be measuring slightly different things, and that the proprietary software industry might not be as well integrated as indicated. -- Shaun From murrayc@murrayc.com Thu Jun 1 12:57:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E33E13B0236 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 12:57:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22029-06 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 12:57:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swarthymail-a1.dreamhost.com (ip-208-97-132-53.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 460493B0115 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 12:57:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from noname (p5497F70E.dip.t-dialin.net [84.151.247.14]) by swarthymail-a1.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D70690DF8; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:57:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Murray Cumming To: Alan Cox In-Reply-To: <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 18:57:44 +0200 Message-Id: <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.507 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.092, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.507 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 16:57:54 -0000 On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 14:57 +0100, Alan Cox wrote: > On Iau, 2006-06-01 at 14:33 +0200, Murray Cumming wrote: > > Hmm, how about people working together? It just seems that the person who > > most most obviously wants this should be the person trying to make it > > happen. > > I'd be wary of pursuing just the "women in GNOME" issue, because many of > the same things put off far more than just women. Yes, that's why the gender issue is only one (possible) part of the code of conduct, though it's the reason that I got around to finally pushing it. But Anne is asking specifically for a gender policy/plan, apparently separate to that. I'd just like her to make a suggestion. > Running around > shouting "pants off" is not, for example, very compatible with the > Japanese cultural expectations. > > Also if "Code of Conduct" is too strong then "Expected Behaviour" > perhaps. Personally I don't see a problem with "Code of Conduct" in that > it deals with acting for, speaking for, representing or being part of > Gnome, or when using its facilities. > > It isn't too much to ask for people to keep other stuff elsewhere, or to > engage in other incompatible activities from a non-gnome email address > or on a different irc network. -- Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From anne@oestergaard.nu Thu Jun 1 16:22:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B3E13B0345 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:22:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04031-09 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:22:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61F4C3B0350 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:22:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user5.cybercity.dk (user5.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.51]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 296332450B9 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 22:21:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user5.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id D218D3A1CEA for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 22:21:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 29142 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2006 20:21:57 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 1 Jun 2006 20:21:57 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Murray Cumming In-Reply-To: <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 22:21:56 +0200 Message-Id: <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.536 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.063, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.536 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Alan Cox Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 20:22:13 -0000 tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 18:57 +0200, skrev Murray Cumming: > On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 14:57 +0100, Alan Cox wrote: > > On Iau, 2006-06-01 at 14:33 +0200, Murray Cumming wrote: > > > Hmm, how about people working together? It just seems that the person who > > > most most obviously wants this should be the person trying to make it > > > happen. > > > > I'd be wary of pursuing just the "women in GNOME" issue, because many of > > the same things put off far more than just women. Yes. > Yes, that's why the gender issue is only one (possible) part of the code > of conduct, though it's the reason that I got around to finally pushing > it. > > But Anne is asking specifically for a gender policy/plan, apparently > separate to that. I'd just like her to make a suggestion. I think it is a natural step to take after the EU and FLOSSPOLS report has shown that women are being excluded from the community.- If we want to se some change in attitudes and behavior in GNOME and FLOSS, and se more women involved in the future in all parts and capacities of our projects, we need to find out why only a little more than 1% of are women. > > Running around > > shouting "pants off" is not, for example, very compatible with the > > Japanese cultural expectations. I don't expect it either. > > Also if "Code of Conduct" is too strong then "Expected Behaviour" > > perhaps. Personally I don't see a problem with "Code of Conduct" in that > > it deals with acting for, speaking for, representing or being part of > > Gnome, or when using its facilities. I fully agree. Anne From gpoo@ubiobio.cl Thu Jun 1 16:30:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FCD53B0F5A for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:30:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04723-03 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:30:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay.ubiobio.cl (atlas.dci.ubiobio.cl [146.83.195.21]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18FC33B0DF6 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:30:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by forward.ubiobio.cl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85A3A400341; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:29:06 -0400 (CLT) Received: from pegasus.dci.ubiobio.cl ([146.83.195.11]) by localhost (antivirus.dci.ubiobio.cl [146.83.195.21]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04672-54; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:29:05 -0400 (CLT) Received: from mimos.local (unknown [146.83.198.86]) by pegasus.dci.ubiobio.cl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87AB32804423; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:30:33 -0400 (CLT) From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Germ=E1n_Po=F3_Caama=F1o?= To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 16:30:37 -0400 Message-Id: <1149193838.15278.79.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at ubiobio.cl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.414 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.414 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Alan Cox , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 20:30:49 -0000 On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 22:21 +0200, Anne Østergaard wrote: > tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 18:57 +0200, skrev Murray Cumming: > > On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 14:57 +0100, Alan Cox wrote: > [...] > > > Also if "Code of Conduct" is too strong then "Expected Behaviour" > > > perhaps. Personally I don't see a problem with "Code of Conduct" in that > > > it deals with acting for, speaking for, representing or being part of > > > Gnome, or when using its facilities. > > I fully agree. Some part of this already exists for a long time ago. But, at the moment it is only applied to mail aliases: http://developer.gnome.org/doc/policies/accounts/mail.html The proposal is a kind of extension of that policy, but in the other way (saying what is good). -- Germán Poó-Caamaño http://www.ubiobio.cl/~gpoo/ Concepción - Chile From dneary@free.fr Thu Jun 1 17:13:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ECC13B03C7 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:13:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07168-10 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:13:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp3-g19.free.fr (smtp3-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.29]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4C0B3B035E for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:13:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp3-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8B524970D; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 23:13:42 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <447F5885.8080600@free.fr> Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 23:13:41 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.8 (X11/20060502) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Anne_=D8stergaard?= References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.573 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.026, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.573 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Alan Cox , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 21:13:46 -0000 Hi, Anne Østergaard wrote: > tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 18:57 +0200, skrev Murray Cumming: > I think it is a natural step to take after the EU and FLOSSPOLS report > has shown that women are being excluded from the community.- What I've seen shows that women are not participating in the community - this is not necessarily the same thing as being excluded (which implies some kind of conscious decision on the part of "the community"). Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From domlachowicz@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 17:50:06 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A76A3B029F for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:50:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09033-03 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:50:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.201]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6E823B0323 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:50:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so326172wxd for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:50:04 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=EQz0j9dnYEQkJhXAWayQpR6Xs35ItnM88LGVKIs10TURvWQmE6UuwzzLxOzpt1X2dwvby4ZelOufGT05N2Yikg+fSfXy2u6eVp3ujRO/pA1QWEdDbOk22uuXhBzixogXA7P1933/m5QcoH1eLyDgDl9Ylk6aELLr4sukH7cNQ6c= Received: by 10.70.102.11 with SMTP id z11mr1409705wxb; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.105.2 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2672cf4d0606011450m58601cadq2f8694e2968d753c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:50:04 -0400 From: "Dominic Lachowicz" To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.452 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.148, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.452 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 21:50:06 -0000 > I think it is a natural step to take after the EU and FLOSSPOLS report > has shown that women are being excluded from the community.- This rubs me the wrong way. It's not like we're actively working to exclude women, Asians, or Martians from GNOME. Nor are we actively trying to make GNOME a boys-only club. Simply put, there's no conscious, malicious intent behind the disproportionate male/female ratio, or "Western"/Asian ratio. And I think that this matters... > If we want to se some change in attitudes and behavior in GNOME and > FLOSS, and se more women involved in the future in all parts and > capacities of our projects, we need to find out why only a little more > than 1% of are women. ... because I don't believe that actively pursuing "diversity" for its own sake is a valid goal. I may sound myopic here, but I don't see what the goal of recruiting women qua women or Asians qua Asians gains us as a community. I refuse to measure diversity based on one's genitals or skin color. [However, (for example) recruiting Asians as an attempt to understand their needs, skills, and mentality in order to acquire a greater Asian market share, however, could be ok. Asians are the means. A rockin' version of GNOME on lots of Asian computers is the end.] Instituting open-door policies, non-discriminatory policies/"codes of conduct", and the like are worthwhile goals in-and-of themselves. They advertise what the core tenets of our community are, and this is something we should become better at. But one should not necessarily abandon established (nay, endearing) traits of our community just to grow it larger. You'd give up something concretely cool about the community for some undefined, possibly non-existant benefit. And that ain't diversity, it's its opposite. I'd rather see us resolve to do a better job of marketing how open, cool, and charismatic we are as a community, and let the chips fall where they will. Get the word out to as many people as practicable, welcome everyone, and let the diversity come to us as an organic result of our general openness and coolness. Where we have some specific goal in mind, change as necessary to meet that goal. But don't change for change's sake alone. Recruit interesting people. Recruit smart, talented people. Recruit people useful for your ends. Welcome all people. But don't recruit genitals and skin colors. They're neither interesting nor useful for free software's purposes. Justice is blind, and so should we be. Best, Dom -- Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums. From jdub@waugh.id.au Thu Jun 1 21:05:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 763FE3B0F8D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:05:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20266-06 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:05:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 674FB3B0FA8 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:05:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (ppp121-112.static.internode.on.net [150.101.121.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89CA13C573 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:05:29 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2569D40B4; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:05:26 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:05:26 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060602010526.GE5138@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060601134208.GA14011@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> <2cb10c440606010811p27d3a2cfk1d834f6e2ca01d74@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010811p27d3a2cfk1d834f6e2ca01d74@mail.gmail.com> Reply-By: Mon Jun 5 11:01:11 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 11:01:11 up 10:53, 6 users, load average: 0.23, 0.11, 0.16 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.445 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.445 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Isn't and Wasn't "Rules" [Was: Code Of Conduct] X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 01:05:33 -0000 > I don't think anyone is arguing against being courteous; I'm certainly > not. I just think we'd be better off focusing on actually making people > more courteous, instead of writing rules about it. I think most everyone else has got out of the "characterising it as rules" thing already. It's pretty obvious that's not what Murray's suggesting, or what we're (slowly, consensus-gridlock-ly) buying into. I think a fun way to deal with this criticism ('cos it's valid and expected) is to actually make it a Very GNOMEy Code of Conduct. Let's not beat around the bush - first point: "Be Excellent to Each Other". *guitar lick* - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ "To do: Start up a a magazine dedicated to picky grammar. Call it 'Whom Weekly'." - WzDD From jdub@waugh.id.au Thu Jun 1 21:08:39 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ED713B0D7A for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:08:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20777-05 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:08:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72BFD3B0196 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:08:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (ppp121-112.static.internode.on.net [150.101.121.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEA123C31C for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:08:35 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3CEC340B4; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:08:32 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:08:32 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060602010832.GF5138@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060601134208.GA14011@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> <2cb10c440606010811p27d3a2cfk1d834f6e2ca01d74@mail.gmail.com> <20060602010526.GE5138@waugh.id.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060602010526.GE5138@waugh.id.au> Reply-By: Mon Jun 5 11:08:22 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 11:08:22 up 11:00, 6 users, load average: 0.01, 0.04, 0.09 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.445 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.445 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Isn't and Wasn't "Rules" [Was: Code Of Conduct] X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 01:08:39 -0000 > I think a fun way to deal with this criticism ('cos it's valid and > expected) is to actually make it a Very GNOMEy Code of Conduct. Let's not > beat around the bush - first point: "Be Excellent to Each Other". > > *guitar lick* (added this point to the wiki page) - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2007: Sydney, Australia http://lca2007.linux.org.au/ "I don't want the world, I just want your half." - They Might Be Giants, Ana Ng From murrayc@murrayc.com Fri Jun 2 03:16:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 278B63B1058 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 03:16:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05391-08 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 03:16:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail2.sd.dreamhost.com (webmail2.sd.dreamhost.com [66.33.201.157]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3157B3B1008 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 03:16:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.murrayc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by webmail2.sd.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6311ADC71B; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 00:16:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 194.138.18.132 (proxying for unknown) (SquirrelMail authenticated user murrayc@murrayc.com) by webmail.murrayc.com with HTTP; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 09:16:43 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <44634.194.138.18.132.1149232603.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606011450m58601cadq2f8694e2968d753c@mail.gmail.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606011450m58601cadq2f8694e2968d753c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 09:16:43 +0200 (CEST) From: "Murray Cumming" To: "Dominic Lachowicz" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.557 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.042, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.557 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 07:16:48 -0000 >> I think it is a natural step to take after the EU and FLOSSPOLS report >> has shown that women are being excluded from the community.- > > This rubs me the wrong way. It's not like we're actively working to > exclude women, Asians, or Martians from GNOME. Nor are we actively > trying to make GNOME a boys-only club. Simply put, there's no > conscious, malicious intent behind the disproportionate male/female > ratio, or "Western"/Asian ratio. And I think that this matters... Yet it may require conscious intent to fix it. >> If we want to se some change in attitudes and behavior in GNOME and >> FLOSS, and se more women involved in the future in all parts and >> capacities of our projects, we need to find out why only a little more >> than 1% of are women. > > ... because I don't believe that actively pursuing "diversity" for its > own sake is a valid goal. I may sound myopic here, but I don't see > what the goal of recruiting women qua women or Asians qua Asians gains > us as a community. Other than the obvious morally repellent idea that we might be perceived as unwelcoming to arbitrary large groups of people [1], there are plenty of selfish reasons for doing this: - We are a worldwide project aiming to create a project to make the world a better place for humanity, so we really should be trying our best to involve representative parts of the world in that. It makes it more likely that we will create a product that helps with their goals. - Women + Asia are two huge groups of potential contributors. That many contributors can make a huge contribution if we can get them on board. [1] The idea is so awful that we should be doing whatever we can even if we are not sure that it's going to work or that we are the cause, certainly as long as those things are not going to hurt us. What we have to gain is far more than we have to lose. > I refuse to measure diversity based on one's > genitals or skin color. > > [However, (for example) recruiting Asians as an attempt to understand > their needs, skills, and mentality in order to acquire a greater Asian > market share, however, could be ok. Asians are the means. A rockin' > version of GNOME on lots of Asian computers is the end.] > > Instituting open-door policies, non-discriminatory policies/"codes of > conduct", and the like are worthwhile goals in-and-of themselves. They > advertise what the core tenets of our community are, and this is > something we should become better at. But one should not necessarily > abandon established (nay, endearing) traits of our community just to > grow it larger. You'd give up something concretely cool about the > community for some undefined, possibly non-existant benefit. And that > ain't diversity, it's its opposite. > > I'd rather see us resolve to do a better job of marketing how open, > cool, and charismatic we are as a community, and let the chips fall > where they will. Get the word out to as many people as practicable, > welcome everyone, and let the diversity come to us as an organic > result of our general openness and coolness. Where we have some > specific goal in mind, change as necessary to meet that goal. But > don't change for change's sake alone. > > Recruit interesting people. Recruit smart, talented people. Recruit > people useful for your ends. Welcome all people. But don't recruit > genitals and skin colors. They're neither interesting nor useful for > free software's purposes. Justice is blind, and so should we be. This unfortunately ignores the conclusion that many have made that some groups will not feel at home in a community until their are people like them in the community. To get to that critical mass we may need to help the process along a bit. I think Callum said it well: http://spooky-possum.org/cgi-bin/pyblosxom.cgi/womenoss.html The code of conduct doesn't try to address that directly, however. It's just a small part of it. Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From dneary@free.fr Fri Jun 2 11:12:08 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B8BE3B0492; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:12:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02791-04; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:12:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.wanadoo.fr (smtp1.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.30]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 714393B045D; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:12:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf0101.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id DE51F1C00250; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:12:03 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060602151203910.DE51F1C00250@mwinf0101.orange.fr Message-ID: <44805543.9030503@free.fr> Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 17:12:03 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Foundation-List , Advisory Board X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Co-option of Quim Gil to the board X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:12:08 -0000 Hi, When Luis announced to the board that he wanted to resign [1] a couple of weeks ago, the board discussed our options - referendum or co-option. We felt that co-opting a new member onto the board, on the basis of the election results last December, was the best way to select the newest member of the board. Our decision was made easy by the fact that since the election, this person has gone on to become a heavyweight in the GNOME community in very short order. So without further ado, I'd like to announce that the board has decided to co-opt Quim Gil onto the board into the vacant position left by Luis Villa, effective immediately. We're all sorry to see Luis leave the board, but I have a feeling that this means we'll be hearing even more from him in the future. I'd like to wish him all the best in his budding legal career. Welcome on board, Quim. Cheers, Dave. [1] http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/06/01/resigning-from-the-board/ -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From anne@oestergaard.nu Fri Jun 2 11:20:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 323583B0508 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:20:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03437-07 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:20:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero1.cybercity.dk (cicero1.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1D7C3B01DB for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:20:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EE2A63F49B for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:20:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 66BAF750595 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:20:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 7791 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2006 15:20:29 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 2 Jun 2006 15:20:29 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: foundation-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 17:20:29 +0200 Message-Id: <1149261629.6843.46.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.33 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.145, BAYES_40=-0.185] X-Spam-Score: -1.33 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Denmark to follow in the foot steps of Massachuchets on open standards X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:20:34 -0000 Denmark to follow in the foot steps of Massachuchets on open standards. Half an hour ago the Danish Parliament, Folketinget voted on B 103 on introducing open standards in the state administration: The short version: " To introduce and maintain a set of open standards from January 1st 2008 or if this is not possible as soon as it is technically possible". All voters, 113 voted in favor. This means that the Minister Of Science, Technology and Innovation has to make a law proposal at present it in the next session of Folketinget after the sommer vacation. This is a huge step forward for kompetition and interoperability in the software sector. Best wishes Anne From luis.villa@gmail.com Fri Jun 2 11:42:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4D6B3B0135 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:42:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04691-10 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:42:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.207]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C508B3B0487 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:42:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so573067wxd for ; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 08:42:41 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=alaXrWnB7HFYQ//qRQWu01yX6KdjMGVhaJlybNLM3KO7RMd5Uc4kem7mi8uVGw8RntB0znpdBPAwJGaZl1JIHs04AUo1LEXRBhVBM0027t55glEdEsh/X/4An6icYfYVvGITMl38FizG9Hsn0KfHIvq62jL7wLvvcynRswYJQiA= Received: by 10.70.105.9 with SMTP id d9mr2597990wxc; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 08:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.2 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 08:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2cb10c440606020842r42c3eed1v9b9fb9796cffc37e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:42:39 -0400 From: "Luis Villa" To: "Dave Neary" In-Reply-To: <44805543.9030503@free.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <44805543.9030503@free.fr> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Foundation-List Subject: Re: Co-option of Quim Gil to the board X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:42:48 -0000 On 6/2/06, Dave Neary wrote: > We're all sorry to see Luis leave the > board, but I have a feeling that this means we'll be hearing even more > from him in the future. I'd like to wish him all the best in his budding > legal career. Should have announced that here first, of course :) My mistake. To paraphrase what I said on the blog post, when I ran for board this year, I mentioned that I'd be AWOL towards the end of the term, but I miscalculated for how long. Given that it would have been roughly 1/2 of the term, I decided to resign as quickly as the correct replacement could be found. Given Quim's excellent leadership of GUADEC so far, I have every confidence that he'll do an excellent job of it. It has been an honor and a pleasure to be elected to the board as many times as I have- I owe a big debt of thanks to everyone who has supported me over the years. I hope I've served well and fulfilled your expectations. Luis From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Fri Jun 2 17:59:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF3F63B0424 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:59:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26906-01 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:59:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 02A003B0408 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:59:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 6750 invoked by uid 0); 2 Jun 2006 21:59:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.34]) (83.42.203.236) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 21:59:45 +0000 From: Quim Gil To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <4480555C.8070702@free.fr> References: <4480555C.8070702@free.fr> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-We/bITLkFRm0xgU/rk3X" Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 23:59:45 +0200 Message-Id: <1149285585.4975.205.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.499, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Co-option of Quim Gil to the board X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 21:59:52 -0000 --=-We/bITLkFRm0xgU/rk3X Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El dv 02 de 06 del 2006 a les 17:12 +0200, en/na Dave Neary va escriure: > Welcome on board, Quim. Thank you for the trust. Where is the manual? Throw me some tasks... to be started really on July 1st. Let me say thanks to Murray for the ignition, thanks to Dave for the companion and thanks to Luis... not for leaving but for being a referent in many aspects. I still don't know what he does all the time with the bugsquashers ;) but reading him here and there is always a constructive experience. And thanks of course to the open, friendly and welcoming GNOME community, that I'm getting to know in various aspects from my seat at the GUADEC ticket window.=20 For the administrativia and the transparency:=20 I was still affiliated to interactors.coop when I presented candidacy last December, but on January I was already independent and self-employed. Since then I'm working part time for GUADEC 2006, being paid by the Information Society office of the Catalan government (this could be considered my current affiliation) until July 15th. =20 --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-We/bITLkFRm0xgU/rk3X Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEgLTRBEzHYk6x634RAus1AKCFY7lfbc38l3Ye7IPooXcpo5i9zACgmj37 QthA+VvQOHgeSKgkqm530+k= =m61U -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-We/bITLkFRm0xgU/rk3X-- From alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk Sun Jun 4 12:16:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C50043B01B6 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 12:16:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28610-07 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 12:16:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (unknown [81.2.110.250]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4DAD3B009F for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 12:16:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k54GVY3s024738; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:31:35 +0100 Received: (from alan@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k54GVYRS024737; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:31:34 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: alan set sender to alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk using -f From: Alan Cox To: Dominic Lachowicz In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606011450m58601cadq2f8694e2968d753c@mail.gmail.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606011450m58601cadq2f8694e2968d753c@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 17:31:33 +0100 Message-Id: <1149438693.23209.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 (2.6.1-1.fc5.2) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.386 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.201, BAYES_40=-0.185] X-Spam-Score: -1.386 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 16:16:27 -0000 Ar Iau, 2006-06-01 am 17:50 -0400, ysgrifennodd Dominic Lachowicz: > This rubs me the wrong way. It's not like we're actively working to > exclude women, Asians, or Martians from GNOME. Nor are we actively > trying to make GNOME a boys-only club. Simply put, there's no > conscious, malicious intent behind the disproportionate male/female > ratio, or "Western"/Asian ratio. And I think that this matters... It shouldn't IMHO be taken that way. Most discrimination of all kinds is utterly unintentional, and that kind of discrimination is harder to tackle because there is no evil intent and no-one to directly blame. It still needs tackling, and that is in part about making people understand when their actions put off or exclude others. Alan From danilo@gnome.org Sun Jun 4 18:36:42 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED3AB3B0080 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 18:36:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15344-09 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 18:36:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from avet.kvota.net (unknown [147.91.15.33]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4238D3B0008 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 18:36:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by avet.kvota.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1A75A7D1A0; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 00:41:17 +0200 (CEST) To: Alan Cox References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606011450m58601cadq2f8694e2968d753c@mail.gmail.com> <1149438693.23209.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> From: danilo@gnome.org (=?utf-8?q?Danilo_=C5=A0egan?=) Mail-Followup-To: Alan Cox , Dominic Lachowicz , foundation-list@gnome.org Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 00:41:16 +0200 In-Reply-To: <1149438693.23209.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> (Alan Cox's message of "Sun, 04 Jun 2006 17:31:33 +0100") Message-ID: <87k67w8rxv.fsf@avet.kvota.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/21.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.489 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.110, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.489 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 22:36:42 -0000 Hi Alan, Dominic, Yesterday at 18:31, Alan Cox wrote: > It shouldn't IMHO be taken that way. Most discrimination of all kinds is > utterly unintentional, and that kind of discrimination is harder to > tackle because there is no evil intent and no-one to directly blame. It > still needs tackling, and that is in part about making people understand > when their actions put off or exclude others. Any actions whatsoever put off or exclude others. Eg. even insisting on freedom (in practice) excludes those who insist that they need no freedom in software (even if we're not intentionally excluding them: if they need no freedom, it doesn't mean that it will harm them, so why wouldn't they join and help us?). And as already indicated on this list, there are several people here who are afraid that establishing Code of Conduct would "put off or exclude others" as well (i.e. be "discriminative"). And not because they would not abide by the rules, but because they wouldn't want to be told what to, and what not to do. Shall we stop promoting freedom because of this "discrimination"? Or "being nice"? (this is exactly the reason I am in favour of CoC: just like we should promote freedom even if it puts off someone, we should promote politeness even if it excludes someone) I'd rather say that we're getting increasingly and needlessly touchy here. Lets just get on with the Code of Conduct (or whatever the name is now), and hope that it will resolve issues we as a community might have, yet are unable to acknowledge or recognise. Cheers, Danilo From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Mon Jun 5 03:15:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66D613B0560 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 03:15:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10156-09 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 03:14:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C3F413B070E for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 03:14:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 32058 invoked by uid 0); 5 Jun 2006 07:14:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.34]) (83.55.175.229) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 07:14:53 +0000 From: Quim Gil To: Shaun McCance In-Reply-To: <1149177077.31607.13.camel@shaunmlx> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440605300709u669c5da2sa352f1f5fedf2b06@mail.gmail.com> <14439.194.138.18.131.1149000460.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060530151633.GB28961@bridgewayconsulting.com.au> <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> <1149177077.31607.13.camel@shaunmlx> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-CbFrQf4qX9tQSp9+ED3+" Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 09:14:51 +0200 Message-Id: <1149491692.5124.54.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.281 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=1.318, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -1.281 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 07:15:03 -0000 --=-CbFrQf4qX9tQSp9+ED3+ Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El dj 01 de 06 del 2006 a les 10:51 -0500, en/na Shaun McCance va escriure: > there tends to > be a reasonably high percentage of women in technical jobs > that aren't necessarily programming (though they may involve > some programming), such as project management, tech writing, > graphic design, and quality assurance. >=20 > All of these positions tend to be under-represented in the > free software world, at least among volunteer efforts. Good point.=20 We can try to find and convince the very few geek women out there for free software hardcore programming. But if we miss people in all the non-programming tasks, wouldn't be easier to find new types of contributors through these gateways? Documentation, marketing, web publishing, graphic design, journalism, project coordination, community management... are tasks that involve both women and men in the professional world. We have difficulties recruiting volunteers, any kind of volunteers, in these tasks and I think the reason is not some kind of gender or minority discrimination but, put simply, the predominant geek culture (which I bet some sociologist has already found out to be based mainly on male and western paradigms). It is probably good to promote geek-ism in those aspects of free software related to programming but... is it useful to promote it in the rest of tasks? I don't think so, unless we want to develop a desktop and a bunch applications successful between geeks only. I bet this geek culture is stopping many women from being interested in the free software phenomena (in fact I asked several computer-friendly women and this is the answer I got). Being myself not a programmer, it stopped me from finding a place to contribute until I learned to be geek-friendly. And this culture is still stopping many of my non-geek colleagues (both women and men) to come and give a hand. Ask your friends. =20 It is clear that women in general are happy investing their personal time in social activities without a monetary or even a clear benefit. Women have been key in any process of social change (even if their names don't appear in the history books). Have a look on social, non-commercial activities around the world and you will find women everywhere, many times challenging the gender percentages or simply having a clear superiority over men.=20 If we fail involving women (and other "majority" groups in other social, non-commercial organizations and activities) it's because something else, an the geek culture is in the top of the suspicious list. We can work making the geek paradigms more feminine or less gender-determined but changing a paradigm takes time and there is no manual for it. Working on less geek-ish gateways and environments for the non-programming tasks seems to be a more tangible challenge that can make a change in the short term. --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-CbFrQf4qX9tQSp9+ED3+ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEg9nqBEzHYk6x634RAqlJAJ4zANfndROsAmG+04Ii2MTuE6ocXACgvF4R FcFX4ebWv4xv6VK+G+wa1OI= =/nJ+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-CbFrQf4qX9tQSp9+ED3+-- From anne@oestergaard.nu Mon Jun 5 09:40:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 214FC3B08AB for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:40:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02988-06 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:40:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46C153B0874 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:40:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA90A245038 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:40:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id DC24D75034D for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:40:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 23250 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 13:40:22 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 13:40:22 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: foundation-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 15:40:21 +0200 Message-Id: <1149514822.4447.55.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.285 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.177, BAYES_40=-0.185, TW_PL=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -1.285 X-Spam-Level: Subject: The 3rd International GPLv3 Conference: Takes place in CCCB, Barcelona, Spain, June 22nd & 23rd X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:40:40 -0000 The 3rd International GPLv3 Conference: Takes place in CCCB, Barcelona, Spain, June 22nd & 23rd! The venue has now been confirmed as Aula 1, Centre de Cultura Contemporanea (CCCB).www.cccb.org/ Important information especially to those of you who are going to this years GUADEC and have not yet brought your traveling ticket and to all of you living near by. Just before GUADEC starts there is this very important conference taking place in Barcelona: The 3rd International GPLv3 Conference: CCCB, Barcelona, Spain, June 22nd & 23rd http://fsfeurope.org/projects/gplv3/europe-gplv3-conference It is very important to all GNOME and other developers of Free- and Open Source Software to follow closely and participate in the discussions on how we would like the final version of GPLv3 to be. This is not a matter for lawyers only but a vital question for everyone who has an interest in software freedom and how you make it possible to share and build upon the ideas of each other in order to get a more free, fair, ethic, and democratic international society. It is also vital for creating the best possible legal as well as technical environment and conditions for future innovation. Best regards Anne From anne@oestergaard.nu Mon Jun 5 09:42:10 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5315D3B08BA for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:42:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02993-10 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:42:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 549A53B086F for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:42:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user5.cybercity.dk (user5.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.51]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BB1724518C for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:42:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user5.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 341613A2411 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:42:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 23285 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 13:42:05 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 13:42:05 -0000 Dato: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 18:11:26 +0200 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: foundation-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 15:42:04 +0200 Message-Id: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.785 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.675, BAYES_05=-1.11] X-Spam-Score: -1.785 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:42:10 -0000 Hello all GNOME Foundation Members, About the size of the present board. The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño. Background: Not so long ago we had a Reducing Board Size Referendum "Should the board size be reduced from its current 11 directors to 7 directors?" The Referendum Results: 188 members voted for this referendum. The repartition of the votes is: yes (117 votes) no (70 votes) blank votes: 1 The board is at the moment of the opinion that a GNOME Board of 7 persons should normally work and be enough, provided that we have a staff person who can take part of the work load. Also at present a couple of the 7 board members have been given additional responsibilities at their ordinary work places and/or enlarged their family so they are pressed for time for "heavy" board work. Since the board has not yet hired anybody (we are in the process of doing so), the board would suggest to you that for the remaining of this year, we ask Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño to join the board. They are both happy and willing to join the board, but under the condition that there is not severe objections from the GNOME Foundation Members. I think that I need not tell you, that the two candidates in question are highly respected for their long time great contributions to the GNOME project and the GNOME community spirit. Being responsible for having proposed this temporary compromise solution, I naturally hope for your blessings. Please react within 10 days if you have problems with enlarging the board by inviting Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño to join the GNOME Board of Directors for the rest of 2006. Best wishes Anne From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Mon Jun 5 12:52:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C85B63B03D4 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 12:52:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15369-05 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 12:52:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 54F843B059A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 12:52:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 5 Jun 2006 17:52:10 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 17:52:09 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 16:52:14 -0000 On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Anne [ISO-8859-1] =D8stergaard wrote: > Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 15:42:04 +0200 > From: "Anne [ISO-8859-1] =D8stergaard" > To: foundation-list@gnome.org > Subject: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons > > Hello all GNOME Foundation Members, > > About the size of the present board. > > The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the > board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germ=C3=A1n Po=C3=B3-Caama=C3= =B1o. > > Background: > Not so long ago we had a Reducing Board Size Referendum > > "Should the board size be reduced from its current 11 directors to 7 > directors?" The way I always thought of the purpose of the referendum was that it should be possible - in fact it is a necessity - that others beyond the official board be involved in organising. The number of people on the board seems to be a symptom of the fact that it is difficult to get people involved and helping out with the foundation any other way. > The board is at the moment of the opinion that a GNOME Board of 7 > persons should normally work and be enough, provided that we have a > staff person who can take part of the work load. Being officially on the Gnome Foundation board is a nice way to provide more recognition for the people who work on behalf of Gnome but is it really necessary to give official titles to get people to help out in this way? (Perhaps it is, I'm assuming nothing at this point and I certainly dont want to discourage those who work to help keep the Gnome Foudnatoin organised.) Would a board of 15 people get huge amounts of work done, or would it hamper decision making? Could there be some kind of a secondary board, or council or committee or whatever you want to call it with a more fluid membership formed from those actively helping at any given time, requiring only a nomination from the board? That might give the flexibility required and provide another way to recognise all the work being done on our behalf. > They are both happy and willing to join the board, but under the > condition that there is not severe objections from the GNOME Foundation > Members. The way the referendum was written it did leave it open for the board to reexpand later at their own discretion. If you are really convinced it will help I wont make an issue of it but there might be a better way and you could take successful referendum as encouragement to think about it a little further if this is the best way to organise the board in the long run. --=20 Alan From baris@teamforce.name.tr Mon Jun 5 13:07:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 383823B0007 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:07:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16437-06 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:07:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nerd.com.tr (nerd.com.tr [69.60.117.115]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 473403B038A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:07:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nerd.com.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D19D784E6A; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:10:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nerd.com.tr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (nerd.com.tr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00433-08; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:10:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (unknown [81.213.157.51]) by nerd.com.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id F10EC784E68; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:10:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Baris Cicek To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-FNyi3F0n+O+x6eo3x6Zz" Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:07:03 +0300 Message-Id: <1149527224.2470.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 (2.6.1-1.fc5.2) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at nerd.com.tr X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.239 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.360, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.239 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 17:07:18 -0000 --=-FNyi3F0n+O+x6eo3x6Zz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anne you better also send this mail to foundation-announce because every foundation member might not be subscribed here, but they do to foundation-announce. Also I wonder why Board need to enlarge its size, but instead asking for help outside the board. Like delegating some work to groups and just stay as a decision maker? As a side note, as far as I remember the biggest argument for reducing board size is because it was harder to decide with too much noise in board, which made being in decision maker position harder. Isn't it better to get over this problem first, which next year's or later year's boards would suffer again, instead of temporary solutions On Mon, 2006-06-05 at 15:42 +0200, Anne =C3=98stergaard wrote: > Hello all GNOME Foundation Members, >=20 > About the size of the present board. >=20 > The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the > board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germ=C3=A1n Po=C3=B3-Caama=C3= =B1o.=20 >=20 > Background: > Not so long ago we had a Reducing Board Size Referendum >=20 > "Should the board size be reduced from its current 11 directors to 7 > directors?" =20 >=20 > The Referendum Results: >=20 > 188 members voted for this referendum. The repartition of the votes is:=20 >=20 > yes (117 votes) > no (70 votes) > blank votes: 1 >=20 >=20 > The board is at the moment of the opinion that a GNOME Board of 7 > persons should normally work and be enough, provided that we have a > staff person who can take part of the work load. >=20 > Also at present a couple of the 7 board members have been given > additional responsibilities at their ordinary work places and/or > enlarged their family so they are pressed for time for "heavy" board > work. >=20 > Since the board has not yet hired anybody (we are in the process of > doing so), the board would suggest to you that for the remaining of this > year, we ask Behdad Esfahbod and Germ=C3=A1n Po=C3=B3-Caama=C3=B1o to joi= n the board. >=20 > They are both happy and willing to join the board, but under the > condition that there is not severe objections from the GNOME Foundation > Members. >=20 > I think that I need not tell you, that the two candidates in question > are highly respected for their long time great contributions to the > GNOME project and the GNOME community spirit. >=20 > Being responsible for having proposed this temporary compromise > solution, I naturally hope for your blessings. >=20 > Please react within 10 days if you have problems with enlarging the > board by inviting Behdad Esfahbod and Germ=C3=A1n Po=C3=B3-Caama=C3=B1o t= o join the > GNOME Board of Directors for the rest of 2006. >=20 >=20 > Best wishes >=20 > Anne >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > foundation-list mailing list > foundation-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list --=-FNyi3F0n+O+x6eo3x6Zz Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEhGS362fLHU++kcURAuOQAKDH1XkUp5jJbQgoPaZQ7rYkLmIb8QCgy4nV 2JPZyV+MSHCcejDwfcLG4Ao= =B3LD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-FNyi3F0n+O+x6eo3x6Zz-- From ted@leary.csoft.net Mon Jun 5 13:09:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0E4F3B050E for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:09:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16633-04 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:08:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail63.csoft.net (mail63.csoft.net [205.205.214.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A7A9B3B01A1 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:08:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 21562 invoked by uid 1373); 5 Jun 2006 17:08:55 -0000 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 12:08:55 -0500 (EST) From: ted@gould.cx X-X-Sender: ted@leary2.csoft.net To: Alan Horkan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.638 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_REAL_NAME=0.961] X-Spam-Score: -1.638 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 17:09:00 -0000 Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Alan Horkan wrote: > The way I always thought of the purpose of the referendum was that it > should be possible - in fact it is a necessity - that others beyond the > official board be involved in organising. The number of people on the > board seems to be a symptom of the fact that it is difficult to get people > involved and helping out with the foundation any other way. I agree with Alan on this (and if you read the Inkscape list, you know that Alan and I don't agree that much :) If these people want to help out, and there are tasks that the board wishes to assign to them, that'd be great. And, I would consider "did X for the board" a great plus on any candidacy statement for the next election. But, they can't be members of the board without an election. --Ted From domlachowicz@gmail.com Mon Jun 5 13:21:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D69E23B08A1 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:21:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17259-02 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:21:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.197]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 413FF3B006C for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:21:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so1207436wxd for ; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:21:23 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=QDbgo9tjZO3vERpfPc6acQItV9f5RiD/en/qTooxz0+9N7z/Wh3n9xA7QUGtyedsQWgL8ZsAdGcAjmkWhWahcnp9Q/bEnckByLEaDsr9CzOSRAUwv6913Dsiu0tpMcnIlF9SduUdcophPsryyANBrCdSJUPAo5jt0+Cb0JFYTNQ= Received: by 10.70.27.12 with SMTP id a12mr6287613wxa; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:21:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.116.12 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 10:21:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:21:23 -0400 From: "Dominic Lachowicz" To: "ted@gould.cx" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.717 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.606, BAYES_05=-1.11, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.717 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 17:21:28 -0000 > Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > > Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. It doesn't seem to be entirely arbitrary. The 3 "appointees" were the next 3 highest vote-getters in the 2005 elections. http://foundation.gnome.org/vote/results.php?election_id=2 > candidacy statement for the next election. But, they can't be members of > the board without an election. The Foundation's charter apparently says (in at least two places) that they can appoint members without an election: http://foundation.gnome.org/about/charter/ "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows, subject to approval by the board or referendum of the membership." "Between elections, board vacancies or new board slots shall be filled by appointment by the board of directors." The charter is, of course, amendable via referendum. I like all of the people appointed and appreciate that they were all the next highest vote-getters in the 2005 election. They'd do a great job on the board. But I must admit, it feels a little strange that a third of the foundation's board would be appointed if this were to pass. Would it be preferable if instead some of the work were farmed out to willing volunteers, rather than expanding the board's size? Why should we prefer the board's size to grow rather than taking this proposed alternative? Best, Dom -- Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums. From newren@gmail.com Mon Jun 5 13:22:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB4663B0921 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:22:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17203-06 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:22:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.199]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 376D33B026A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:22:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so1207646wxd for ; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:22:30 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=OsYHaW/07fQqwe80q4hzPlzWBWo0iKC1ms5AzFCgOL01x90L/CgrtB8FAvc/B7jdgfR4E5+bwA16yZhyEdTV7ZJZMtPxfOiTfS7edcdCBqilBZ76ZpgPPXn6BHsl5GCmsCEr8VTwpyKYXgP2m1GRgJqWswUUblAS0gYfATQBWww= Received: by 10.70.71.12 with SMTP id t12mr6302640wxa; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.7 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 10:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51419b2c0606051022u66212d1at72d1a175728953b8@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 11:22:29 -0600 From: "Elijah Newren" To: "ted@gould.cx" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.567 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.033, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.567 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 17:22:34 -0000 On 6/5/06, ted@gould.cx wrote: > > Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > > Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. It doesn't look at all arbitrary to me. Behdad and German ran for the board last year and are the highest two vote receivers who aren't on the board. > > On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Alan Horkan wrote: > > The way I always thought of the purpose of the referendum was that it > > should be possible - in fact it is a necessity - that others beyond the > > official board be involved in organising. The number of people on the > > board seems to be a symptom of the fact that it is difficult to get people > > involved and helping out with the foundation any other way. > > I agree with Alan on this (and if you read the Inkscape list, you know > that Alan and I don't agree that much :) If these people want to help > out, and there are tasks that the board wishes to assign to them, that'd > be great. And, I would consider "did X for the board" a great plus on any > candidacy statement for the next election. But, they can't be members of > the board without an election. There may be reasons to object to this, but I disagree with this reasoning. There was an election. Besides -- what about the case where Luis resigned just recently? Your reasoning would say that he can't be replaced. Is that really what you're suggesting? From vuntz@gnome.org Mon Jun 5 14:45:25 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B49783B0A30 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:45:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22597-04 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:45:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fennas.vuntz.net (fennas.vuntz.net [82.228.182.88]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BB153B097F for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:45:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from latronche.vuntz.net (latronche.vuntz.net [10.0.0.7]) by fennas.vuntz.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4233811267D for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 20:45:23 +0200 (CEST) From: Vincent Untz To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:47:22 +0200 Message-Id: <1149533242.30799.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.56 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.039, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.56 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 18:45:25 -0000 Le lundi 05 juin 2006 à 13:21 -0400, Dominic Lachowicz a écrit : > > candidacy statement for the next election. But, they can't be members of > > the board without an election. > > The Foundation's charter apparently says (in at least two places) that > they can appoint members without an election: > > http://foundation.gnome.org/about/charter/ > > "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows, > subject to approval by the board or referendum of the membership." > > "Between elections, board vacancies or new board slots shall be filled > by appointment by the board of directors." > > The charter is, of course, amendable via referendum. Thanks Dom. I guess it's a good occasion to remind people to read the Foundation charter, especially if they are members of the Foundation :-) Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. From aguelzow@taliesin.ca Mon Jun 5 15:06:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2890B3B03AD for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:06:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23796-04 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:06:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.mail.interbaun.com (smtp01.mail.interbaun.com [199.185.130.39]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74DDC3B026A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:06:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 20591 invoked by uid 502); 5 Jun 2006 19:06:31 -0000 Received: from 226.207-229-35-0.interbaun.com (207.229.35.226) by smtp01.mail.interbaun.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 19:06:31 -0000 From: "Andreas J. Guelzow" To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Taliesin Software Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:05:38 -0600 Message-Id: <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:06:34 -0000 On Mon, 2006-05-06 at 13:21 -0400, Dominic Lachowicz wrote: > > Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > > > > Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > > everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. > > It doesn't seem to be entirely arbitrary. The 3 "appointees" were the > next 3 highest vote-getters in the 2005 elections. In other words, they lost the election. > > http://foundation.gnome.org/vote/results.php?election_id=2 > > > candidacy statement for the next election. But, they can't be members of > > the board without an election. > > The Foundation's charter apparently says (in at least two places) that > they can appoint members without an election: > > http://foundation.gnome.org/about/charter/ > > "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows, > subject to approval by the board or referendum of the membership." > > "Between elections, board vacancies or new board slots shall be filled > by appointment by the board of directors." This is different from temporarily appointing 2 additional members. Of course the board can add new seats, but they will then be permanent until (again?) removed via a referendum. Andreas -- Andreas J. Guelzow Pyrenean Shepherds From anne@oestergaard.nu Mon Jun 5 15:18:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CB5D3B07BB for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:18:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24554-02 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:18:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero1.cybercity.dk (cicero1.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92A023B077A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:18:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id D758763EE23 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:18:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 837677502C0 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:18:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 26566 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 19:18:19 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 19:18:19 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Alan Horkan In-Reply-To: References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:18:18 +0200 Message-Id: <1149535098.4447.95.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.529 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.070, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.529 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:18:36 -0000 man, 05 06 2006 kl. 17:52 +0100, skrev Alan Horkan: > On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Anne [ISO-8859-1] stergaard wrote: > > > Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 15:42:04 +0200 > > From: "Anne [ISO-8859-1] stergaard" > > To: foundation-list@gnome.org > > Subject: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons > > > > Hello all GNOME Foundation Members, > > > > About the size of the present board. > > > > The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the > > board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño. > > > > Background: > > Not so long ago we had a Reducing Board Size Referendum > > > > "Should the board size be reduced from its current 11 directors to 7 > > directors?" > > The way I always thought of the purpose of the referendum was that it > should be possible - in fact it is a necessity - that others beyond the > official board be involved in organising. The number of people on the > board seems to be a symptom of the fact that it is difficult to get people > involved and helping out with the foundation any other way. > > > The board is at the moment of the opinion that a GNOME Board of 7 > > persons should normally work and be enough, provided that we have a > > staff person who can take part of the work load. > > Being officially on the Gnome Foundation board is a nice way to provide > more recognition for the people who work on behalf of Gnome but is it > really necessary to give official titles to get people to help out in this > way? (Perhaps it is, I'm assuming nothing at this point and I certainly > dont want to discourage those who work to help keep the Gnome Foudnatoin > organised.) > > Would a board of 15 people get huge amounts of work done, or would it > hamper decision making? > > Could there be some kind of a secondary board, or council or committee or > whatever you want to call it with a more fluid membership formed from > those actively helping at any given time, requiring only a nomination from > reallythe board? That might give the flexibility required and provide another > way to recognise all the work being done on our behalf. I really think this is a good idea. We need to be better at delegating. But we get stuck when we talk about how it should be done in practice. However we have asked different members of our community for help and gotten it at several occasions, so I guess we are learning. Having a list of persons who has got time and energy to help prepare a case and make a recommendation to the board should make it so much easier for the board. I am all for that we let foundation members and even not yet foundation members sign up om a helpers Wiki page telling a little about which interests they have, how long they have been involved in the GNOME project, which kind of things they have helped out with before etc. But until we have found a proper form for how we delegate tasks I am afraid that we are short of heads and hands. Lets have an informal BoF at GUADEC on good delegation practice in GNOME. I am all for it. Anne From anne@oestergaard.nu Mon Jun 5 15:22:14 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80BEC3B038A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:22:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24742-05 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:22:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero1.cybercity.dk (cicero1.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 542403B00BE for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:22:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user3.cybercity.dk (user3.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.36]) by cicero1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36AC663E93E for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:22:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user3.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id E635293DC2 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:22:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 26602 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 19:22:10 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 19:22:10 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: ted@gould.cx In-Reply-To: References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:22:09 +0200 Message-Id: <1149535330.4447.101.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.53 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.069, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.53 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:22:14 -0000 man, 05 06 2006 kl. 12:08 -0500, skrev ted@gould.cx: > Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > > Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. OK these two persons were next on the list of persons who nearly made it to the board.(Only a few votes difference to those getting elected.) So it was not a random choice. Anne From ted@leary.csoft.net Mon Jun 5 15:35:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BF673B0947 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:35:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25691-08 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:35:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail63.csoft.net (mail63.csoft.net [205.205.214.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id ECAFE3B0668 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:35:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 4151 invoked by uid 1373); 5 Jun 2006 19:35:50 -0000 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:35:50 -0500 (EST) From: ted@gould.cx X-X-Sender: ted@leary2.csoft.net To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149535330.4447.101.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149535330.4447.101.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-2040552725-1149536150=:22433" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.638 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_REAL_NAME=0.961] X-Spam-Score: -1.638 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:35:57 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-2040552725-1149536150=:22433 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Anne =D8stergaard wrote: > man, 05 06 2006 kl. 12:08 -0500, skrev ted@gould.cx: >> Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) >> >> Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect >> everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. > > OK these two persons were next on the list of persons who nearly made it > to the board.(Only a few votes difference to those getting elected.) > > So it was not a random choice. Sorry, I didn't take the time to look at who you were suggesting. I still= =20 don't believe that the board should be adding members to itself without an= =20 election, whether they can or not. I think actions like that leave too=20 much room for cronyism in the future. As for getting people involved, perhaps posting to this list? I realize=20 it's hard to find tasks that someone might be able to pick up and do, but= =20 it is usually worthwhile in the end. Perhaps a "TODO" list on=20 live.gnome.org of things that the board is planning on doing, and will do,= =20 but if someone wants to beat them to it :) Perhaps something in the=20 meeting minutes? =09=09--Ted --0-2040552725-1149536150=:22433-- From anne@oestergaard.nu Mon Jun 5 15:40:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ADBC3B099D for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:40:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25830-05 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:40:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 986293B0947 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:40:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user4.cybercity.dk (user4.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.50]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 606272453B1 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:40:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user4.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 2483750391 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:40:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 26767 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 19:39:59 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 19:39:59 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Baris Cicek In-Reply-To: <1149527224.2470.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149527224.2470.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:39:59 +0200 Message-Id: <1149536399.4447.120.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.531 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.068, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.531 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:40:12 -0000 man, 05 06 2006 kl. 20:07 +0300, skrev Baris Cicek: > Anne you better also send this mail to foundation-announce because every > foundation member might not be subscribed here, but they do to > foundation-announce. I will do so. > Also I wonder why Board need to enlarge its size, but instead asking for > help outside the board. Like delegating some work to groups and just > stay as a decision maker? This is the way I would like to se things being delegated. I quite old and well proven way of doing it. > As a side note, as far as I remember the biggest argument for reducing > board size is because it was harder to decide with too much noise in > board, which made being in decision maker position harder. Isn't it > better to get over this problem first, which next year's or later year's > boards would suffer again, instead of temporary solutions We are in reality down to 5+ persons at times and this is not enough at the moment. We are getting the the Advisory Board more involved and the technical/or embedded devices group started so we are quite busy. If we do not get two more persons on the board, I think that we risk that the busy persons step down, and we will get the good new persons on board any way, but at the risk of loosing continuity and experience. It takes a little while before completely new board members get the feeling of how things are being done and which things must be taken care of first to get the business running. ( I am here talking of book keeping, accounting and financial insight and overview.) Anne From anne@oestergaard.nu Mon Jun 5 15:50:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 439B73B0952 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:50:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26247-10 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:50:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero1.cybercity.dk (cicero1.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63D3A3B058A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:50:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CDAC63F924 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:50:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id B2E0F750057 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:50:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 26992 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 19:50:38 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 19:50:38 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: ted@gould.cx In-Reply-To: References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149535330.4447.101.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:50:37 +0200 Message-Id: <1149537038.4447.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.531 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.068, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.531 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:50:49 -0000 man, 05 06 2006 kl. 14:35 -0500, skrev ted@gould.cx: > On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Anne stergaard wrote: > > man, 05 06 2006 kl. 12:08 -0500, skrev ted@gould.cx: > >> Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > >> > >> Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > >> everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. > > > > OK these two persons were next on the list of persons who nearly made it > > to the board.(Only a few votes difference to those getting elected.) > > > > So it was not a random choice. > > Sorry, I didn't take the time to look at who you were suggesting. I still > don't believe that the board should be adding members to itself without an > election, whether they can or not. I think actions like that leave too > much room for cronyism in the future. The problem is that it sometimes takes as long time to describe the tasks as simply doing them yourself. Also you have to check if people are doing what they said they would do and within reasonable time. You need to know people better in order to know if they just say yes and then forget all about it or they deliver if they have said they will. May be we should find a people and tasks manager. But this being said we all agree on the board that we shall delegate more and more tasks to the community because this is real important for the growth and continuity of our community. We are trying, Ted. Anne From dneary@free.fr Mon Jun 5 15:54:31 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C7B23B0011 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:54:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26894-05 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:54:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2-g19.free.fr (smtp2-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.28]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B8083B0012 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:54:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp2-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E624731A6; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:54:27 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:54:02 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060521) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Andreas J. Guelzow" References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> In-Reply-To: <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:54:31 -0000 Hi Andrew, Andreas J. Guelzow wrote: > On Mon, 2006-05-06 at 13:21 -0400, Dominic Lachowicz wrote: >> "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows, >> subject to approval by the board or referendum of the membership." >> >> "Between elections, board vacancies or new board slots shall be filled >> by appointment by the board of directors." > > This is different from temporarily appointing 2 additional members. Of > course the board can add new seats, but they will then be permanent > until (again?) removed via a referendum. No - the referendum last year was non-binding (as mentioned afterwards by Dom, I think). The board has the power to decide before the elections each year how many seats will be available. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From aguelzow@taliesin.ca Mon Jun 5 16:08:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DF1E3B0011 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:08:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27618-01 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:07:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp02.mail.interbaun.com (smtp02auth.mail.interbaun.com [199.185.130.52]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 19A263B0129 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:07:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 29676 invoked by uid 502); 5 Jun 2006 20:01:14 -0000 Received: from 226.207-229-35-0.interbaun.com (207.229.35.226) by smtp02.mail.interbaun.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 20:01:14 -0000 From: "Andreas J. Guelzow" To: Gnome Foundation In-Reply-To: <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Taliesin Software Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 14:00:22 -0600 Message-Id: <1149537622.6058.61.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:08:00 -0000 On Mon, 2006-05-06 at 21:54 +0200, David Neary wrote: > Hi Andrew, > > Andreas J. Guelzow wrote: > > On Mon, 2006-05-06 at 13:21 -0400, Dominic Lachowicz wrote: > >> "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows, > >> subject to approval by the board or referendum of the membership." > >> > >> "Between elections, board vacancies or new board slots shall be filled > >> by appointment by the board of directors." > > > > This is different from temporarily appointing 2 additional members. Of > > course the board can add new seats, but they will then be permanent > > until (again?) removed via a referendum. > > No - the referendum last year was non-binding (as mentioned afterwards > by Dom, I think). The board has the power to decide before the elections > each year how many seats will be available. So, the board can decide how many people it wants to have elected and then it can add an arbitrary number of additional members after the election. Why do we have elections in the first place? Of course "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows". Has trhe project really grown that significantly since the last election? Andreas From dneary@free.fr Mon Jun 5 16:09:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 971FF3B01AE for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:09:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27618-09 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:09:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp5-g19.free.fr (smtp5-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.35]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 864F73B002C for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:09:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp5-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB3212774B; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 22:09:28 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <44848F5A.3090300@free.fr> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 22:08:58 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060521) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ted@gould.cx References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149535330.4447.101.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:09:33 -0000 Hi, ted@gould.cx wrote: > As for getting people involved, perhaps posting to this list? I realize > it's hard to find tasks that someone might be able to pick up and do, > but it is usually worthwhile in the end. Perhaps a "TODO" list on > live.gnome.org of things that the board is planning on doing, and will > do, but if someone wants to beat them to it :) Perhaps something in the > meeting minutes? This point has come up a couple of times. Getting people onto the board (or at least onto board-list and on the conference calls) is useful, because a fair amount of what the board isn't doing well this year (primarily because we don't have an employee, it has to be said) is private, or requires a mandate. Things like lodging cheques or withdrawing money from the bank account, dealing with our accountant to get official forms or information on the foundation, invoicing companies for money, being aware of donations coming in and thanking donors (who potentially want to stay anonymous), things like that. There are many things that we could perhaps do more out in the open, and filtering our agendas and minutes better into public/private parts (as we started to do at the beginning of the year), posting them in a more regular and timely manner, and so on. All of those tasks take time, along with all of the other slack we've been picking up, and (as Anne pointed out) the changes in the personal and work lives of a few board members, distribution releases, births, job changes, travel with work and so on. But all the stuff that we're struggling with at the moment is kind of private stuff - which means having some kind of non-public inner circle of people - perhaps not on the board, but at least in some way engaged to respect board secrecy. Anything that we have been able to do in public (or avoid doing by delegating), we've been mostly doing. For what it's worth, I think most of our problems will go away once we have an employee, but back in October, I said that one reason why we shouldn't be afraid to reduce the number was because we would always have the possibility to increase it again if we realised we had made a mistake. I definitely thought that a few months ago, but when we had Zana as our admin, she not only caught up with the backlog, we had the impression that things were really moving forward. At the moment, we don't have 7 active, regularly answering their board mail board members. I think 6 active board members is probably enough to hold down the fort, if no important functions are missing, but we're more likely to have 6 or 7 active out of 9 than out of 7. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From dneary@free.fr Mon Jun 5 16:15:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40E3C3B002C for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:15:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28035-03 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:15:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1-g19.free.fr (smtp1-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.27]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 002103B0208 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:15:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp1-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2337A9AC97; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 22:14:59 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <448490A4.5070904@free.fr> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 22:14:28 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060521) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Andreas J. Guelzow" References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> <1149537622.6058.61.camel@localhost> In-Reply-To: <1149537622.6058.61.camel@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Gnome Foundation Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:15:03 -0000 Hi, Andreas J. Guelzow wrote: > So, the board can decide how many people it wants to have elected and > then it can add an arbitrary number of additional members after the > election. Why do we have elections in the first place? The board must have at least 7 people. Aside from that, your summary is correct. But then, we're supposed to trust our board members at election time - that's why we vote for them, isn't it? :) Seriously - the board will not abuse this, but co-opting members onto the board to handle workload is a common occurrence - as is setting up empowered sub-committees. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From newren@gmail.com Mon Jun 5 16:29:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6877C3B03EA for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:29:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29362-06 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.205]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FB293B06D7 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so1248330wxd for ; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:29:14 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=c0DI0gAqSXwHBKoFxTl2TtOdhohkR7RE11uhZPi32bUo3Db8eVQxiyFtijAYvj0mM1N8hFRyyMEejGtQxltidUZuBOYGPMXcRg7kfKRC/4YgSX/MXW3+uh+5JHFjOra8K4QYb3i+t2rdSQLUefDuiKH0Z/2TJU4kKbAWbjBlig8= Received: by 10.70.113.20 with SMTP id l20mr6543579wxc; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.7 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51419b2c0606051329p7c73e3a2p94a15b77e9cd5585@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:29:11 -0600 From: "Elijah Newren" To: "David Neary" In-Reply-To: <448490A4.5070904@free.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> <1149537622.6058.61.camel@localhost> <448490A4.5070904@free.fr> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.569 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.031, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.569 X-Spam-Level: Cc: "Andreas J. Guelzow" , Gnome Foundation Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:29:18 -0000 On 6/5/06, David Neary wrote: > > Hi, > > Andreas J. Guelzow wrote: > > So, the board can decide how many people it wants to have elected and > > then it can add an arbitrary number of additional members after the > > election. Why do we have elections in the first place? > > The board must have at least 7 people. Aside from that, your summary is > correct. But then, we're supposed to trust our board members at election > time - that's why we vote for them, isn't it? :) > > Seriously - the board will not abuse this, but co-opting members onto > the board to handle workload is a common occurrence - as is setting up > empowered sub-committees. Would the board lose anything by creating an empowered sub-committee here specifically consisting of Behdad and German? That would seem to quell most of the problems people have voiced against the proposal, and perhaps still allow all the same stuff to get done. I'm thinking here of the analogy to the release team -- the board formed the release-team (and still has oversight of it, if necessary), yet release-team members (assuming they are not also board members) have no board powers other than the release-team tasks they have been delegated to handle. I could be wrong, but judging from the comments so far, I believe that handles the delegation many people want to see. From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 5 18:42:02 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13AC73B03A0 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 18:42:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06160-02 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 18:42:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75B993B039F for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 18:42:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k55Mfwkk003546 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:41:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J0E00701RZ13Q@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for foundation-list@gnome.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 23:41:58 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-116-52.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.116.52]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J0E00E5MSDY03@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 23:41:58 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 00:08:39 +0100 From: Bill Haneman In-reply-to: <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> To: David Neary Message-id: <1149548919.12099.8.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: Cc: "Andreas J. Guelzow" , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 22:42:02 -0000 On Mon, 2006-06-05 at 20:54, David Neary wrote: > Hi Andrew,... > No - the referendum last year was non-binding (as mentioned afterwards > by Dom, I think). The board has the power to decide before the elections > each year how many seats will be available. Having only recently had a referendum on this (or at least a closely related issue, e.g. the size of the Board), I think that if the Board wants to retain the goodwill and trust of the electorate it should abide by the referendum results. A key argument in favor of the "reduce the size of the Board" referendum was that it would be accompanied by expanded delegation and the formation of subcommittees/action groups etc. to which tasks would be delegated by the Board. Let's do it! Bill > Cheers, > Dave. > > -- > Dave Neary > bolsh@gimp.org > Lyon, France > _______________________________________________ > foundation-list mailing list > foundation-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list From Glynn.Foster@Sun.COM Mon Jun 5 23:20:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A19F3B00AE for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 23:20:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19367-02 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 23:20:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 128553B00A2 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 23:20:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-06.sun.com (d1-emea-06.sun.com [192.18.2.116] (may be forged)) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k563Jxnp029303 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:19:59 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-06.sun.com by d1-emea-06.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0F0060154EH200@d1-emea-06.sun.com> (original mail from Glynn.Foster@Sun.COM) for foundation-list@gnome.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 04:19:59 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.18.42.16] by d1-emea-06.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0F004ED595ZZ20@d1-emea-06.sun.com>; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 04:19:58 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 15:23:21 +1200 From: Glynn Foster In-reply-to: <448490A4.5070904@free.fr> Sender: Glynn.Foster@Sun.COM To: David Neary Message-id: <4484F529.9010505@sun.com> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> <1149537622.6058.61.camel@localhost> <448490A4.5070904@free.fr> User-Agent: Mail/News 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060515) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.596 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.002, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.596 X-Spam-Level: Cc: "Andreas J. Guelzow" , Gnome Foundation Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 03:20:07 -0000 Hi, David Neary wrote: > Hi, > > Andreas J. Guelzow wrote: >> So, the board can decide how many people it wants to have elected and >> then it can add an arbitrary number of additional members after the >> election. Why do we have elections in the first place? > > The board must have at least 7 people. Aside from that, your summary is > correct. But then, we're supposed to trust our board members at election > time - that's why we vote for them, isn't it? :) > > Seriously - the board will not abuse this, but co-opting members onto > the board to handle workload is a common occurrence - as is setting up > empowered sub-committees. Will the new members have full voting rights on the board? I'm not sure I really mind either way given my previous experiences on the board, but I think we need to be careful about this since we're setting a precedent here. Glynn From james.henstridge@gmail.com Tue Jun 6 00:48:09 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 999093B007A for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 00:48:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22963-06 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 00:48:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.197]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE4EB3B0012 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 00:48:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so1343934wxd for ; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:48:07 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=s6W90tAFFMqbeF1zOA6cMOwf/4VT54VrjJ+T2QKnHBmd3wsR7fZ7AkQ83efEHduxKZMd4Wjbyv4ZlmUgVwusdTpfYGO4/1uQGQ9QGvp79F5CwIfJVkentnyjFKl4FNde0NN0q2W1cJ2Qogm71qV/5PMIAgV93neIPJUDMtvGjzc= Received: by 10.70.109.7 with SMTP id h7mr7003673wxc; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.60.15 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:48:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 12:48:06 +0800 From: "James Henstridge" Sender: james.henstridge@gmail.com To: "Dominic Lachowicz" In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 62eb23e7e8bd3462 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.582 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.582 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org, "ted@gould.cx" Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 04:48:09 -0000 On 06/06/06, Dominic Lachowicz wrote: > > Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > > > > Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > > everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. > > It doesn't seem to be entirely arbitrary. The 3 "appointees" were the > next 3 highest vote-getters in the 2005 elections. > > http://foundation.gnome.org/vote/results.php?election_id=2 Of course, the results of the elections may have been quite different if Luis didn't stand, and each member had two more votes to cover the additional seats. If this sort of thing is likely to happen again, it might be worth switching to a preferential voting system where we'd have all the information to see what the result would be if a candidate was removed or the number of seats increased. Dispite this, I am sure that Behdad and German would make good additions to the board. James. From jdub@waugh.id.au Tue Jun 6 01:12:02 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9CA63B0092 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:12:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24144-02 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:12:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69B643B0728 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:12:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (ppp121-112.static.internode.on.net [150.101.121.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F89C3C382 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:11:59 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 888F93F9C; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:11:54 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:11:54 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: Reply-By: Fri Jun 9 15:10:21 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 15:10:21 up 4 days, 15:02, 11 users, load average: 0.08, 0.08, 0.01 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.017, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 05:12:02 -0000 > But, they can't be members of the board without an election. Just want to point out that, yes, they can be - please read the Foundation by-laws. The board can change the size of the board at will, and nominate members at will. The referendum process was not done because it was necessary, it was done to understand the will of the membership (and delegate the decision to them). - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ "You gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, and know when to run." - Kenny Rogers, The Gambler From jdub@waugh.id.au Tue Jun 6 01:40:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8905F3B0018 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:40:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25374-02 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:40:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 428533B000D for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:40:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (ppp121-112.static.internode.on.net [150.101.121.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 571303C257 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:40:50 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 797943F9C; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:40:45 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:40:45 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060606054045.GM5138@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Reply-By: Fri Jun 9 15:13:53 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 15:13:53 up 4 days, 15:05, 11 users, load average: 0.09, 0.08, 0.02 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.017, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 05:40:54 -0000 > The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the > board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño. My personal opinion on this, as stated to the board: * We made our bed with the one-two-punch combination of change in board size and change in number of employees (currently zero). * Given that we delegated the decision regarding board size to the members and executed that change, it would be inappropriate only six or so months down the track to change it again. * The biggest problem right now (as I see it) is lack of board member time on the ground in Boston. We can distribute and delegate almost everything else effectively. This is impacting administration tasks and employment plans. * We are attempting to do big things without the benefit of having a face to face meeting. Every board so far has been more effective post-GUADEC, after they've had the opportunity to sit down, grind through the issues with a lot of social bandwidth and look each other up and down a bit. It really helps develop shared vision, shared values and shared trust in a way that mail, phone and IRC can't. - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ "The ability to procrastinate is what separates us from the machines." - Chris Gregory, Desktop Magazine From veillard@redhat.com Tue Jun 6 04:58:29 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E3D33B00ED for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25831-09 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [66.187.233.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D1023B00CB for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k568wKkC013649 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:20 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (devserv.devel.redhat.com [172.16.58.1]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k568wKR7017325 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:20 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k568wK9S021047 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:20 -0400 Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11/Submit) id k568wKOU021040 for foundation-list@gnome.org; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:20 -0400 Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:19 -0400 From: Daniel Veillard To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.367 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.003, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, TW_BX=0.077, TW_IB=0.077, TW_PM=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.367 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 08:58:29 -0000 On Tue, Jun 06, 2006 at 03:11:54PM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > > But, they can't be members of the board without an election. > > Just want to point out that, yes, they can be - please read the Foundation > by-laws. The board can change the size of the board at will, and nominate > members at will. Which is clearly a hole in the democratic process, the right thing to do would be to fix the bylaws, not jump on the loophole as a justification. > The referendum process was not done because it was necessary, it was done to > understand the will of the membership (and delegate the decision to them). And to stay in the spirit of that process you should have avoided this last step. Honnestly this look very weird from the outside, the board looks like contradicting itself on every occasion, provides no information about the day to day business (or I missed the minutes since the bunch posted for March), and the only thing which justify not working by delegation is that most of the operation need to be done in secrecy. That's honnestly not the kind of board process we expected when the bylaws were written, Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat http://redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Tue Jun 6 05:06:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46C313B09F1 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 05:06:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27265-04 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 05:06:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8E9D23B0A35 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 05:06:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 26140 invoked by uid 0); 6 Jun 2006 09:06:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.34]) (83.42.200.49) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 09:06:03 +0000 From: Quim Gil To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-W8w3n7YDvxZf85v0s8N9" Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 11:06:02 +0200 Message-Id: <1149584763.5220.69.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.083 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.439, BAYES_00=-2.599, TW_JR=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.083 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 09:06:34 -0000 --=-W8w3n7YDvxZf85v0s8N9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El dl 05 de 06 del 2006 a les 15:42 +0200, en/na Anne =C3=98stergaard va escriure: > The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the > board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germ=C3=A1n Po=C3=B3-Caama=C3= =B1o.=20 I wasn't in the board when this issue was discussed, and as a new board board I'm unsure what should I do now if I disagree. Transparency is always a good path, I guess.=20 - Consequent with the past Increasing now the board size seems inappropriate after the referendum discussions and result and without having made an extended use of asking explicitly for help and delegating within the GNOME community. - Size is not the problem We seem to agree that the problem is not the size of the board but the current circumstances that make many board members have less time than expected. If size is not the problem, the enlargement is probably not the solution. It's like having unsatisfactory sexual live and going to the doctor to enlarge your breast or your penis. At the beginning it might look like a change and a progress, but the root of the problem is still there, and possibly larger now. - Delegating and collaborating with people out of the board There was a lot of discussion about the few time required to be a good board member, let things happen, stay out of the way... We simply need to put in practice all that. For instance, invite someone to pick the Boston Yellow Pages, make some calls and come up with 3 companies we could hire for our accountancy and representation. Delegations like this might originate some crisis situations but since we are already in a crisis situation... what can we loose? And what can we learn. Adding 2 people to the board might be methadone to keep the problem of not sharing and delegating with less pain. - Too busy to delegate and hire We know the paradox of not having time to delegate or hire, making an overwhelming situation deeper. A solution is to stop the machine consciously (many times is already stopped, unconsciously) and concentrate in delegating. An intermediate option is simply do less things or not letting new tasks start before the delegation/hiring problem is solved. We missed something because of this? Yes, but how many thing are we missing by not delegating/hiring. - The quest of finding the magic full time profile =20 No wonder we didn't find the magic profile: a yin accountant & administrator + a yang fundraiser + based in Boston + competent and available + of course familiar with free software and GNOME (discussed at http://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/2006-April/msg00023.html ). = It is probably better and easier to hire the services of a mercenary busine= ss representation based in Boston + hiring one or more part time people we = know and trust, based wherever and able to travel when it's needed.=20 - Boston (Massachusetts, USA) It is a danger to have a board elected with candidates from everywhere that needs to have at least one member in a specific city: Boston. What if jrb wasn't elected, didn't want to renew or decides to leave some day? This is per se a reason to hire the services of a company (something theoretically more stable than an individual) and visit them every three months, either picking the Boston metro or a flight.=20 - Conclusion The board is overwhelmed and needs help. The fact that the board didn't share the discussion since the earliest stage but came up with a pre-conclusion is, I think, already a symptom of how overwhelmed the board members are and how far we all still are from opening the board and start sharing and delegating with the GNOME community. Many tasks the board can't delegate easily are related to services that can be hired. Let's concentrate on that, while we review publicly the list of priorities and see who can help on what inside / outside the board. Of course nothing of this has to do with the capabilities of Behdad and Germ=C3=A1n, who could be without doubt good board members. It has not to d= o either with the fact that I joined the board as a first patch for this problem. I had these opinions months ago, when I couldn't imagine I would join the board during this year. --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-W8w3n7YDvxZf85v0s8N9 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEhUV6BEzHYk6x634RAlOGAJ468PjA5ogEPfJt4Syb7QDks2mQzACcD/Dt 7SRSwIcbyQMxQ9z9jCLmlLE= =96/Y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-W8w3n7YDvxZf85v0s8N9-- From dneary@free.fr Tue Jun 6 06:16:02 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACD933B0A9E for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 06:16:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06395-09 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 06:16:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp6.wanadoo.fr (smtp6.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.25]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5360F3B0ACF for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 06:15:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf0606.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 398661C00282; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 12:15:12 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060606101512236.398661C00282@mwinf0606.orange.fr Message-ID: <448555B5.5030106@free.fr> Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:15:17 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Quim Gil References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149584763.5220.69.camel@localhost> In-Reply-To: <1149584763.5220.69.camel@localhost> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.54 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, TW_JR=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.54 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 10:16:03 -0000 Hi, Quim Gil wrote: > El dl 05 de 06 del 2006 a les 15:42 +0200, en/na Anne Østergaard va > escriure: > >> The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the >> board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño. > > I wasn't in the board when this issue was discussed, and as a new board > board I'm unsure what should I do now if I disagree. Transparency is > always a good path, I guess. Yes - just disagree. There is/was not unanimity on this point. As Jeff's said, he's against changing. Luis was also. I was the first one to propose increasing the board size in February when we were having trouble coping, but am now unsure, and was absent from the board meeting where it was discussed. > - Boston (Massachusetts, USA) > > It is a danger to have a board elected with candidates from everywhere > that needs to have at least one member in a specific city: Boston. What > if jrb wasn't elected, didn't want to renew or decides to leave some > day? This is per se a reason to hire the services of a company > (something theoretically more stable than an individual) and visit them > every three months, either picking the Boston metro or a flight. I'm unsure what the consequences would be for the foundation if none of the board was in or from the US. I'm not sure there would be any. The insistence on a Boston rep is more convenience than necessity - everyone knows how much more quickly things can go when you need something off someone, and you drop by to meet them face to face. Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From jdub@waugh.id.au Tue Jun 6 06:33:53 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE7743B00CF for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 06:33:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09584-02 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 06:33:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE51F3B0084 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 06:33:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (ppp121-112.static.internode.on.net [150.101.121.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9F223D876 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 20:33:50 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0FA6D3F9C; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 20:33:45 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 20:33:45 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> Reply-By: Fri Jun 9 20:19:56 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 20:19:57 up 4 days, 20:11, 10 users, load average: 0.04, 0.10, 0.03 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.017, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 10:33:53 -0000 > > Just want to point out that, yes, they can be - please read the > > Foundation by-laws. The board can change the size of the board at will, > > and nominate members at will. > > Which is clearly a hole in the democratic process, the right thing to do > would be to fix the bylaws, not jump on the loophole as a justification. Daniel, you misunderstand - I'm not here to justify the loophole, as I do not agree with the proposal in the first place! :-) There are a bunch of things I think we could fix in the bylaws (but I may feel that way simply because they are substantially different from the law and practices that I am used to in Australia). I do think the ability for the board to redefine its size at will is not appropriate. That said, the previous decision to reduce the board to seven members was discussed on the list and delegated to the membership - fully transparent. The board *absolutely* needs the ability to nominate members when a position is vacant. It should not require an election process to execute that - if the (elected) board is not trusted to fill vacant positions, then we have much bigger problems. Considering the current state of affairs, I think it's wholly appropriate that the board is nominating Quim Gil (next in line from previous election results) to fill the position left vacant by Luis' resignation, but I don't believe it's appropriate or necessary for the board to increase the number of directors (with or without referendum, but to answer your charges, mostly without) at this stage. > and the only thing which justify not working by delegation is that most of > the operation need to be done in secrecy. I don't believe anyone has cited 'secrecy', though the word 'private' has come up. Ultimately the workings and decision of the board is not secret at all, but there are activities that require a certain amount of privacy or sensitivity. The process of dealing with employees, and the handling of the accounts (handling, not reporting) are good examples. I don't think this is even remotely controversial - anyone who has participated in the running of a non-profit organisation (including you, Daniel) would be well aware of this kind of balancing. If the board is not appropriately reporting its activities, then any member should feel absolutely comfortable to ask questions and make demands. But I would ask that those questions and demands be specific and reasonable. :-) - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ "It's never been, 'We're doing this for the good of society.' It's always been us taking an intellectual pride in putting out a good product - and making money. If putting a computer on every desktop and in every home didn't make money, we wouldn't do it." - Microserfs From veillard@redhat.com Tue Jun 6 07:33:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 352943B00E0 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16106-09 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [66.187.233.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA3A63B00B4 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k56BXoEq003691 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:50 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (devserv.devel.redhat.com [172.16.58.1]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k56BXonQ013466 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:50 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k56BXo7G005351 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:50 -0400 Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11/Submit) id k56BXnfY005349 for foundation-list@gnome.org; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:49 -0400 Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:49 -0400 From: Daniel Veillard To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060606113349.GW16734@redhat.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.367 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.003, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, TW_BX=0.077, TW_IB=0.077, TW_PM=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.367 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 11:33:52 -0000 On Tue, Jun 06, 2006 at 08:33:45PM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > Considering the current state of affairs, I think it's wholly appropriate > that the board is nominating Quim Gil (next in line from previous election > results) to fill the position left vacant by Luis' resignation, but I don't yes, agreed, it's defining a new practice, but this sounds sane as long as that person is still okay with this. > believe it's appropriate or necessary for the board to increase the number > of directors (with or without referendum, but to answer your charges, mostly > without) at this stage. I can't juge on the 'necessary', but I think it's inappropriate too. > > and the only thing which justify not working by delegation is that most of > > the operation need to be done in secrecy. > > I don't believe anyone has cited 'secrecy', though the word 'private' has > come up. Ultimately the workings and decision of the board is not secret at > all, but there are activities that require a certain amount of privacy or > sensitivity. The process of dealing with employees, and the handling of the > accounts (handling, not reporting) are good examples. I don't think this is > even remotely controversial - anyone who has participated in the running of > a non-profit organisation (including you, Daniel) would be well aware of > this kind of balancing. To have balance one need one opposite side, a perceived one. Sure some details can't be shared, as you know I'm well aware of that, BUT I also always promoted being as public as possible with issues. Currently the board work is opaque, which would be fine if the few signals emitted were good, but 'we are overhelmed we need to reverse to some extend a voted decision' is not a good signal. > If the board is not appropriately reporting its activities, then any member The board is not reporting its activities in a timely fashion. > should feel absolutely comfortable to ask questions and make demands. But I > would ask that those questions and demands be specific and reasonable. :-) Okay, what happen at the board meetings since March, time of last published minutes I could find. I assume it's reasonable request to at least know if you are meeting, and what are the problems/questions you are facing with the details you can share. It then helps getting a sense of how much work need to be done you can't cope with and hence how necessary increasing the board size again really is. I hope my reaction can be understood, and my request not unreasonnable, but really that request should not need to be done, this should be normal process, Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat http://redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From dneary@free.fr Tue Jun 6 08:04:29 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5E283B0141 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:04:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19256-08 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:04:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp9.wanadoo.fr (smtp9.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D9443B008B for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:04:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf0904.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 495E2240019C; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:04:26 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060606120426300.495E2240019C@mwinf0904.orange.fr Message-ID: <44856F50.4000402@free.fr> Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 14:04:32 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: veillard@redhat.com References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606113349.GW16734@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: <20060606113349.GW16734@redhat.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Board meetings since March (was: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:04:30 -0000 Hi, Daniel Veillard wrote: > Okay, what happen at the board meetings since March, time of last published > minutes I could find. I assume it's reasonable request to at least know if > you are meeting, and what are the problems/questions you are facing with > the details you can share. It then helps getting a sense of how much work > need to be done you can't cope with and hence how necessary increasing the > board size again really is. We met on the following dates since the beginning of March: March 1st (minutes sent to foundation-list) March 15th (minutes sent to foundation-list) March 22nd (minutes sent to foundation-list) April 5th April 26th May 17th We also had 2 advisory board meetings (but minutes from those have typically not gone to foundation-list): April 12th May 31st There was a scheduled meeting on the 10th of May which was canceled because of technical problems. The next board meeting is scheduled for tomorrow, June 7th. The minutes for the April 5th and May 17th meetings need to be sanitised for board private issues and sent to the list. We didn't have any phone call for the April 26th meeting, and so the only minutes we have are an IRC log, which again needs to be summarised and sanitised for board privacy issues. The agendas for all meetings should also be reviewed for privacy and confidentiality issues, and sent to the list. I've been sending the agendas to board-list 48 hours before the meeting for comments, and preparing a private/public agenda in the wiki and for the mailing list has proved more effort than I have available for that, and I must admit that it hasn't been a high priority. As an ex board member, you have read-only access to the board wiki pages - would you like to take on this task and help me out? Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From murrayc@murrayc.com Tue Jun 6 08:23:16 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 061193B0186 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:23:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20602-02 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:23:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail3.sd.dreamhost.com (webmail3.sd.dreamhost.com [64.111.100.15]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BC2E3B00B4 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:23:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.murrayc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by webmail3.sd.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E13A714179; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 05:23:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 194.138.18.132 (proxying for unknown) (SquirrelMail authenticated user murrayc@murrayc.com) by webmail.murrayc.com with HTTP; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:23:12 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <60481.194.138.18.132.1149596592.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> In-Reply-To: <44856F50.4000402@free.fr> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606113349.GW16734@redhat.com> <44856F50.4000402@free.fr> Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:23:12 +0200 (CEST) From: "Murray Cumming" To: "Dave Neary" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.548 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.051, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.548 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, veillard@redhat.com Subject: Re: Board meetings since March (was: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:23:16 -0000 > > Hi, > > Daniel Veillard wrote: >> Okay, what happen at the board meetings since March, time of last >> published >> minutes I could find. I assume it's reasonable request to at least know >> if >> you are meeting, and what are the problems/questions you are facing with >> the details you can share. It then helps getting a sense of how much >> work >> need to be done you can't cope with and hence how necessary increasing >> the >> board size again really is. > > We met on the following dates since the beginning of March: > > March 1st (minutes sent to foundation-list) > March 15th (minutes sent to foundation-list) > March 22nd (minutes sent to foundation-list) > April 5th > April 26th > May 17th It really makes life easier if these are added to the list here: http://live.gnome.org/FoundationBoardPublic#head-6903d3d78a8eb091678548773e79000fb5c10292 (Although it doesn't need to be a board member that does that. I blame me.) > We also had 2 advisory board meetings (but minutes from those have > typically not gone to foundation-list): > April 12th > May 31st > > There was a scheduled meeting on the 10th of May which was canceled > because of technical problems. The next board meeting is scheduled for > tomorrow, June 7th. > > The minutes for the April 5th and May 17th meetings need to be sanitised > for board private issues and sent to the list. We didn't have any phone > call for the April 26th meeting, and so the only minutes we have are an > IRC log, which again needs to be summarised and sanitised for board > privacy issues. The agendas for all meetings should also be reviewed for > privacy and confidentiality issues, and sent to the list. > > I've been sending the agendas to board-list 48 hours before the meeting > for comments, and preparing a private/public agenda in the wiki and for > the mailing list has proved more effort than I have available for that, > and I must admit that it hasn't been a high priority. > > As an ex board member, you have read-only access to the board wiki pages > - would you like to take on this task and help me out? I believe everyone has write access to the public pages. Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From veillard@redhat.com Tue Jun 6 08:59:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EE633B00CF for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22495-08 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [66.187.233.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50D123B00B9 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k56Cxdju004443; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:39 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (devserv.devel.redhat.com [172.16.58.1]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k56CxdoC031823; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:39 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k56Cxdrh011349; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:39 -0400 Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11/Submit) id k56Cxdaq011347; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:39 -0400 Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:39 -0400 From: Daniel Veillard To: Dave Neary Message-ID: <20060606125938.GX16734@redhat.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606113349.GW16734@redhat.com> <44856F50.4000402@free.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <44856F50.4000402@free.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.367 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.003, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, TW_BX=0.077, TW_IB=0.077, TW_PM=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.367 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Board meetings since March (was: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:59:45 -0000 On Tue, Jun 06, 2006 at 02:04:32PM +0200, Dave Neary wrote: > The minutes for the April 5th and May 17th meetings need to be sanitised > for board private issues and sent to the list. We didn't have any phone It takes 2 months ? News from 2 months ago are usually not that useful. > call for the April 26th meeting, and so the only minutes we have are an > IRC log, which again needs to be summarised and sanitised for board > privacy issues. The agendas for all meetings should also be reviewed for > privacy and confidentiality issues, and sent to the list. You don't need the agenda to be sent, if you send the minutes in a timely fashion, then people can react if you forgot something. > I've been sending the agendas to board-list 48 hours before the meeting That's nice, but board only, not public awareness, that should make writing minutes even easier. > for comments, and preparing a private/public agenda in the wiki and for > the mailing list has proved more effort than I have available for that, > and I must admit that it hasn't been a high priority. Stuff in the wiki has no persistance, contrary to mail archive, requires web access, and polling or page subscription to monitor state changes. > As an ex board member, you have read-only access to the board wiki pages > - would you like to take on this task and help me out? I don't have much time either, and I disagree with using the Wiki as the way to reach out the community. I think you're not in a very good position to state there isn't enough cycles to run those kind of task, I argued that going from 11 to 7 would be a serious problem, and it's not a matter of having a paid person to do them, the board ought to have the cycles to push the minutes from meeting in a timely fashion delegating this can just lead to more delays and less accuracy. It takes 20, 30mn at worse to edit and post minutes, every 2 weeks. If people on the board don't have that kind of time to offer, then it's a real problem, the only other option would be if current board people didn't think board minutes are important, but in that case they should be frank about this and state it I would not expect or request them. Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat http://redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From dneary@free.fr Tue Jun 6 09:43:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DE4A3B012C for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 09:43:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25372-04 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 09:43:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 642B23B00AB for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 09:43:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf1101.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 3E3B11C0004D; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:43:03 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060606134303255.3E3B11C0004D@mwinf1101.orange.fr Message-ID: <4485866C.5080903@free.fr> Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 15:43:08 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: veillard@redhat.com References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606113349.GW16734@redhat.com> <44856F50.4000402@free.fr> <20060606125938.GX16734@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: <20060606125938.GX16734@redhat.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Board meetings since March X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 13:43:07 -0000 Hi, Daniel Veillard wrote: > On Tue, Jun 06, 2006 at 02:04:32PM +0200, Dave Neary wrote: >> As an ex board member, you have read-only access to the board wiki pages >> - would you like to take on this task and help me out? > > I don't have much time either, and I disagree with using the Wiki as the > way to reach out the community. The private board pages are as good a way as any to prepare an agenda and allow people to edit it easily. Taking that information and splitting it into public/private parts and sending it onto a mailing list is the task I was thinking of. > I think you're not in a very good position to state there isn't enough cycles > to run those kind of task, I argued that going from 11 to 7 would be a serious > problem, and it's not a matter of having a paid person to do them, the board > ought to have the cycles to push the minutes from meeting in a timely fashion > delegating this can just lead to more delays and less accuracy. It takes 20, > 30mn at worse to edit and post minutes, every 2 weeks. If people on the > board don't have that kind of time to offer, then it's a real problem, the > only other option would be if current board people didn't think board minutes > are important, but in that case they should be frank about this and state it > I would not expect or request them. Of course this task is important, and of course one person can take care of it in under an hour after each meeting (half an hour to tidy up notes, and half an hour to take into consideration comments and mail to the list a couple of days later). As I said, the breakage is happening between the preparation of the minutes (which are happening in a timely manner, usually straight after the meeting) and the sending of public minutes to foundation-list a couple of days later. You always did a great job sending out the public minutes. This year, we have not done as good a job. But there is no way I'm saying that increasing the size of the board will help us do a better job - sending minutes out is, and has always been, the job of the secretary - it's not really something that can be shared unless he/she asks someone else to take care of it, or is absent from a meeting. Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From murrayc@murrayc.com Tue Jun 6 16:17:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD4943B0236 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 16:17:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19265-05 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 16:17:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swarthymail-a4.dreamhost.com (mailbigip.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.5]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0753D3B0B04 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 16:17:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from noname (p5497CD77.dip.t-dialin.net [84.151.205.119]) by swarthymail-a4.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92901129A8C; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 13:17:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Murray Cumming To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 22:17:51 +0200 Message-Id: <1149625071.6086.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.06 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.341, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_NJABL_PROXY=0.721, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SOCKS=2.159] X-Spam-Score: -1.06 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 20:17:57 -0000 Here's a positive reply, just so you don't think it's all negative. I'll never figure out how to request a representative sample of replies while also avoiding too many replies. I trust the board to do this and to know if they need to do it, and I have confidence in the proposed new members. I'd prefer delegation, but even the act of delegation requires suitable chunks of time that they might not have right now. If they can't do that quickly then they need to get on and do this now. I supported the reduced-size referendum because I think the board needs to make faster decisions instead of pondering every possibility until the chances have gone by. So well done. If I could set a condition for my Yes, it would be that the new board members would obsessively care for the Foundation's public wiki pages and keep people informed of possible meetings agendas and minutes of completed meetings. You do quite a lot and people should know about it. You might even start referring to not-public-yet agenda items by codenames if necessary, just so we have an idea of how much you are working on. -- Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From murrayc@murrayc.com Wed Jun 7 15:43:39 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBDAC3B01E8 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 15:43:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09531-04 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 15:43:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swarthymail-a1.dreamhost.com (mailbigip.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.5]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AD613B01BA for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 15:43:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from noname (p5497CB1E.dip.t-dialin.net [84.151.203.30]) by swarthymail-a1.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C133D8FE77; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 12:43:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Murray Cumming To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149170374.6894.73.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <1149170374.6894.73.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 21:43:33 +0200 Message-Id: <1149709413.5916.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.98 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.395, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.558, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.456] X-Spam-Score: -0.98 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 19:43:40 -0000 On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 15:59 +0200, Anne Østergaard wrote: > > > Realistically, this plans needs to be written by you. Others will > help you > > > with it, but you need to create it and drive it. [snip] > I will work with the whole of the women in FLOSS community as well as > with the persons who wrote the FLOSSPOLS reports and others who have > written scientific reports and with those of you who are interested. Thanks, Anne. I look forward to reading your suggestions. -- Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From dneary@free.fr Thu Jun 8 17:35:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E6BD3B05F8 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 17:35:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07181-03 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 17:35:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp3-g19.free.fr (smtp3-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.29]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A4A23B000E for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 17:35:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp3-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D47949075; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 23:35:36 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <44889604.7000405@free.fr> Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:26:28 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060521) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alan Cox References: <1147629160.44676e6870cb6@imp1-g19.free.fr> <1147699940.26686.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1147699539.4468815380ca5@imp1-g19.free.fr> <1147702053.26686.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <1147702053.26686.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------040605040600010104040604" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Boilerplate trademark agreement for commercial exploitation X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 21:35:40 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040605040600010104040604 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I was under the impression that I had sent this to the list a long time ago, but I can't find it in the archives, so here, for archival purposes, is the merchandising trademark agreement in .odt - all comments, as usual, are welcome. I'll take the opportunity to thank Dom Lachowitz, who has agreed to take over maintaining the document - I bow to his superior knowledge, and thank him very much for reminding us last week that we should be delegating more ;-) Cheers, Dave. Alan Cox wrote: > On Llu, 2006-05-15 at 15:25 +0200, Dave Neary wrote: >> I can certainly post a copy in ODT later in the week which gets converted into >> .doc every time we need to go to the lawyers... I won't always have the time to >> do it promptly, though. >> >> I will note that there are several high-quality free software programmes that >> can read and write the bits of the .doc format which are important for lawyers. > > > - There are open standards, and GNOME is an open standards based body > - A ".doc" file may render in many different ways, especialy if it > contains macros. Which is definitive, the contract as rendered by MS > Word or by Abiword or by OpenOffice ? > > Alan > > > -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France --------------040605040600010104040604 Content-Type: application/vnd.oasis.opendocument.text; name="GNOME merchandising contract.odt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="GNOME merchandising contract.odt" UEsDBBQAAAAAAMCpyDRexjIMJwAAACcAAAAIAAAAbWltZXR5cGVhcHBsaWNhdGlvbi92bmQu b2FzaXMub3BlbmRvY3VtZW50LnRleHRQSwMEFAAAAAAAwKnINAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABoAAABD b25maWd1cmF0aW9uczIvc3RhdHVzYmFyL1BLAwQUAAgACADAqcg0AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAJwAA AENvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb25zMi9hY2NlbGVyYXRvci9jdXJyZW50LnhtbAMAUEsHCAAAAAACAAAA AAAAAFBLAwQUAAAAAADAqcg0AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGAAAAENvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb25zMi9mbG9h dGVyL1BLAwQUAAAAAADAqcg0AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGgAAAENvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb25zMi9wb3B1 cG1lbnUvUEsDBBQAAAAAAMCpyDQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAcAAAAQ29uZmlndXJhdGlvbnMyL3By b2dyZXNzYmFyL1BLAwQUAAAAAADAqcg0AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGAAAAENvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb25z 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[127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD6B93B031B for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 18:56:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10924-10 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 18:56:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 297323B0450 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 18:56:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 18926 invoked from network); 8 Jun 2006 22:56:39 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?164.99.120.169?) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 8 Jun 2006 22:56:39 -0000 From: Federico Mena Quintero To: foundation-list@gnome.org, GNOME Foundation Board Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 17:52:27 -0500 Message-Id: <1149807147.30645.105.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.645 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.905, BAYES_20=-0.74] X-Spam-Score: -1.645 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Required: Administrator for the Foundation X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 22:56:44 -0000 Hi, The GNOME Foundation is in need of a part-time administrator based in the USA. Our administrator will: 1. Collect, sort and summarise mail for the Board. 2. Handle bills in a timely manner. 3. Prepare checks for the Board to sign. 4. Track donations and fees. 5. Maintain a list of Board contacts. 6. Send out Friends of GNOME gifts to donors. 7. Keep the boards files in order, and sending expenses (when appropriate) to the accountant. 8. Handle the purchase and preparation of materials for tradeshows. 9. Attend board meetings bi-weekly as appropriate, and prepare status updates. 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. 11. There is no number 11. Proximity to Boston, MA is very desirable, though not mandatory. Please send your CV/resume in plain text to board-list@gnome.org. Federico From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Thu Jun 8 19:27:43 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E05373B019F for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 19:27:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12544-06 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 19:27:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7D04E3B03EC for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 19:27:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 11101 invoked by uid 0); 8 Jun 2006 23:27:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.34]) (83.55.174.28) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:27:37 +0000 From: Quim Gil To: Federico Mena Quintero In-Reply-To: <1149807147.30645.105.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> References: <1149807147.30645.105.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-g90YM+JWhOUtDEnlibmx" Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 01:27:36 +0200 Message-Id: <1149809257.5200.57.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=1.200, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:27:43 -0000 --=-g90YM+JWhOUtDEnlibmx Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Help the board (and the whole GNOME Foundation) spreading this profile or this link: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/2006-June/msg00077.html It is crystal clear that the board members will be much alleviated the day we have an efficient administrator in control of all the numbers and legal stuff.=20 El dj 08 de 06 del 2006 a les 17:52 -0500, en/na Federico Mena Quintero va escriure: > Hi, >=20 > The GNOME Foundation is in need of a part-time administrator based in > the USA. Our administrator will: >=20 > 1. Collect, sort and summarise mail for the Board. > 2. Handle bills in a timely manner. > 3. Prepare checks for the Board to sign. > 4. Track donations and fees. > 5. Maintain a list of Board contacts. > 6. Send out Friends of GNOME gifts to donors. > 7. Keep the boards files in order, and sending expenses (when=20 > appropriate) to the accountant. > 8. Handle the purchase and preparation of materials for tradeshows. > 9. Attend board meetings bi-weekly as appropriate, and prepare=20 > status updates. > 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. > 11. There is no number 11. >=20 > Proximity to Boston, MA is very desirable, though not mandatory. >=20 > Please send your CV/resume in plain text to board-list@gnome.org. >=20 > Federico >=20 > _______________________________________________ > foundation-list mailing list > foundation-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list >=20 --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-g90YM+JWhOUtDEnlibmx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEiLJoBEzHYk6x634RArJ6AJsGvNjgobbIa1GuEtIGYilkVS3pngCgrcR4 DwICtONuTn7adRgOQx5v+mo= =dz/Q -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-g90YM+JWhOUtDEnlibmx-- From anne@oestergaard.nu Fri Jun 9 06:20:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC9133B0099 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 06:20:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14331-03 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 06:20:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero0.cybercity.dk (cicero0.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.52]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22ECE3B0093 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 06:20:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero0.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC255678493 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 12:20:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 6AA8774F9A5 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 12:20:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 24532 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 10:20:46 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 10:20:46 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Federico Mena Quintero In-Reply-To: <1149807147.30645.105.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> References: <1149807147.30645.105.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 12:20:45 +0200 Message-Id: <1149848445.4453.36.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.538 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.061, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.538 X-Spam-Level: Cc: GNOME Foundation Board , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 10:20:54 -0000 tor, 08 06 2006 kl. 17:52 -0500, skrev Federico Mena Quintero: > Hi, > > The GNOME Foundation is in need of a part-time administrator based in > the USA. Our administrator will: > > 1. Collect, sort and summarise mail for the Board. > 2. Handle bills in a timely manner. > 3. Prepare checks for the Board to sign. > 4. Track donations and fees. > 5. Maintain a list of Board contacts. > 6. Send out Friends of GNOME gifts to donors. > 7. Keep the boards files in order, and sending expenses (when > appropriate) to the accountant. > 8. Handle the purchase and preparation of materials for tradeshows. > 9. Attend board meetings bi-weekly as appropriate, and prepare > status updates. > 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. > 11. There is no number 11. > > Proximity to Boston, MA is very desirable, though not mandatory. > > Please send your CV/resume in plain text to board-list@gnome.org. Don't forget to send a coverletter that explains why you qualify for this position. Anne From anne@oestergaard.nu Fri Jun 9 09:33:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70A3E3B029F for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 09:33:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27640-06 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 09:33:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F2963B0003 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 09:33:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user3.cybercity.dk (user3.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.36]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id F411F245C35 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 15:33:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user3.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id CAC1C93E3E for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 15:33:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 26273 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 13:33:41 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 13:33:41 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 15:33:39 +0200 Message-Id: <1149860019.4453.144.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.539 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.060, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.539 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 13:33:45 -0000 man, 05 06 2006 kl. 15:42 +0200, skrev Anne Østergaard: > Hello all GNOME Foundation Members, > > About the size of the present board. > > The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the > board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño. > > Background: > Not so long ago we had a Reducing Board Size Referendum > > "Should the board size be reduced from its current 11 directors to 7 > directors?" > > The Referendum Results: > > 188 members voted for this referendum. The repartition of the votes is: > > yes (117 votes) > no (70 votes) > blank votes: 1 > > > The board is at the moment of the opinion that a GNOME Board of 7 > persons should normally work and be enough, provided that we have a > staff person who can take part of the work load. > > Also at present a couple of the 7 board members have been given > additional responsibilities at their ordinary work places and/or > enlarged their family so they are pressed for time for "heavy" board > work. > > Since the board has not yet hired anybody (we are in the process of > doing so), the board would suggest to you that for the remaining of this > year, we ask Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño to join the board. > > They are both happy and willing to join the board, but under the > condition that there is not severe objections from the GNOME Foundation > Members. > > I think that I need not tell you, that the two candidates in question > are highly respected for their long time great contributions to the > GNOME project and the GNOME community spirit. > > Being responsible for having proposed this temporary compromise > solution, I naturally hope for your blessings. > > Please react within 10 days if you have problems with enlarging the > board by inviting Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño to join the > GNOME Board of Directors for the rest of 2006. > I think I made a mistake by only asking those having a problem with a temporary enlargement of the board till the end of the year. As we have not heard from the members would think this was quite acceptable, the result of the consultation would tend to be negative. This is logic. Should the board conclude that the community is against- or do we have lots of members who says yes or stay neutral? Please let's have your reaction before June 11th. Best wishes Anne PS The board is putting great efforts into delegating tasks as we know that there are many members eager to give a hand. In fact we almost always get a yes when we ask. From federico@ximian.com Fri Jun 9 10:42:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3F2C3B10A5 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 10:42:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31714-09 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 10:42:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E2953B0290 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 10:42:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 19596 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 14:42:29 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO 164-99-120-73.boston.ximian.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 14:42:29 -0000 From: Federico Mena Quintero To: foundation-list@gnome.org, foundation-announce@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 09:38:17 -0500 Message-Id: <1149863897.3733.5.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Questions for deployments of GNOME X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 14:42:33 -0000 Are you a deployment of GNOME? Are you like the City of Largo, Florida, or like the districts of Extremadura and Andalucía in Spain, who have big installations of machines running GNOME? At the GNOME Foundation we are conducting a little, informal study of how we can make your lives easier. If you are in charge of the technical part of a GNOME deployment, we would greatly appreciate it if you could answer the questions here: http://primates.ximian.com/~federico/news-2006-06.html#questions-for-deployments Please mail your replies to federico@gnu.org. A summary of the replies will be published during GUADEC this year. Thank you! Federico From domlachowicz@gmail.com Fri Jun 9 11:31:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BFA23B0222 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:31:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02652-02 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:31:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.207]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 965CA3B0290 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:31:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so654060wxd for ; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 08:31:53 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ZlrLXpqL60K1jk8gw3EPmgUEmZUs7iRuScIMEJ15le+bAITYJXZ6VK5qOBdKr99XGsf9iHLtP1cLzAAAAcHKc0zZ+AP0nnOQt8DqXZ/7MjFh/QeEqr33wBOS/t9ZUxPURaKYN9lUQHsv4APUxHzLnEa0GI+xJCtCeppE+Dy7OUg= Received: by 10.70.73.15 with SMTP id v15mr3606926wxa; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 08:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.116.12 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 08:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2672cf4d0606090831h34982de3u16db61e5308242ec@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:31:53 -0400 From: "Dominic Lachowicz" To: "=?UTF-8?Q?Anne_=C3=98stergaard?=" In-Reply-To: <1149860019.4453.144.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149860019.4453.144.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.351 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_BASE64_NO_NAME=0.224, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.351 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 15:31:56 -0000 SGkgQW5uZSwKCj4gPiBJIHRoaW5rIHRoYXQgSSBuZWVkIG5vdCB0ZWxsIHlvdSwgdGhhdCB0aGUg dHdvIGNhbmRpZGF0ZXMgaW4gcXVlc3Rpb24KPiA+IGFyZSBoaWdobHkgcmVzcGVjdGVkIGZvciB0 aGVpciBsb25nIHRpbWUgZ3JlYXQgY29udHJpYnV0aW9ucyB0byB0aGUKPiA+IEdOT01FIHByb2pl Y3QgYW5kIHRoZSBHTk9NRSBjb21tdW5pdHkgc3Bpcml0Lgo+ID4KPiA+IEJlaW5nIHJlc3BvbnNp YmxlIGZvciBoYXZpbmcgcHJvcG9zZWQgdGhpcyB0ZW1wb3JhcnkgY29tcHJvbWlzZQo+ID4gc29s dXRpb24sIEkgbmF0dXJhbGx5IGhvcGUgZm9yIHlvdXIgYmxlc3NpbmdzLgo+ID4KPiA+IFBsZWFz ZSByZWFjdCB3aXRoaW4gMTAgZGF5cyBpZiB5b3UgaGF2ZSBwcm9ibGVtcyB3aXRoIGVubGFyZ2lu ZyB0aGUKPiA+IGJvYXJkIGJ5IGludml0aW5nIEJlaGRhZCBFc2ZhaGJvZCBhbmQgR2VybcOhbiBQ b8OzLUNhYW1hw7FvIHRvIGpvaW4gdGhlCj4gPiBHTk9NRSBCb2FyZCBvZiBEaXJlY3RvcnMgZm9y IHRoZSByZXN0IG9mIDIwMDYuCgpbc25pcF0KCj4gUFMgVGhlIGJvYXJkIGlzIHB1dHRpbmcgZ3Jl YXQgZWZmb3J0cyBpbnRvIGRlbGVnYXRpbmcgdGFza3MgYXMgd2Uga25vdwo+IHRoYXQgdGhlcmUg YXJlIG1hbnkgbWVtYmVycyBlYWdlciB0byBnaXZlIGEgaGFuZC4gSW4gZmFjdCB3ZSBhbG1vc3QK PiBhbHdheXMgZ2V0IGEgeWVzIHdoZW4gd2UgYXNrLgoKSSBhcHByZWNpYXRlIHRoZSBib2FyZCdz IGVmZm9ydHMsIGhhcmQgd29yaywgYW5kIGRlZGljYXRpb24uIEkgYXBwbGF1ZAp0aGUgYm9hcmQn cyByZWNlbnQgcmVzb2x2ZSB0byBkZWxlZ2F0ZSBtb3JlIHRoaW5ncywgaW5jbHVkaW5nCmRlbGVn YXRpbmcgdGhlIFRNIGRvY3VtZW50IHRvIG1lLiBJIGhvcGUgbm90IHRvIGRpc2FwcG9pbnQgeW91 LgoKSG93ZXZlciwgSSBzdGlsbCBoYXZlbid0IGhlYXJkIGEgZ29vZCBleHBsYW5hdGlvbiBhcyB0 byAqd2h5KiB0aGUKYm9hcmQgbmVlZHMgbW9yZSBtZW1iZXJzIHRvIGZ1bGZpbGwgaXRzIGR1dGll cy4gT3Igd2h5IDIgaXMgdGhlIG1hZ2ljCm51bWJlci4gT3Igd2h5IHRoZSBuZXcgcG9zaXRpb25z IHdvdWxkIG9ubHkgYmUgdGVtcG9yYXJ5LiBXaGF0CnByb2JsZW1zIGlzIHRoZSBib2FyZCBmYWNp bmcgdGhhdCBjYW5ub3QgYmUgaGFuZGxlZCBieSB0aGUgY3VycmVudAptZW1iZXJzIHBsdXMgZGVs ZWdhdGlvbiBhcyBhcHByb3ByaWF0ZT8gT3IgaWYgY2VydGFpbiBtZW1iZXJzIGNhbid0Cm1lZXQg dGhlaXIgb2JsaWdhdGlvbnMgZHVlIHRvIG91dHNpZGUgb3IgZnV0dXJlIGNvbW1pdHRtZW50cyAo YXMgd2FzCkx1aXMnIGNhc2UgcmVjZW50bHkpIC0gb3Zlci1xdWFsaWZpZWQgYW5kIHBhc3Npb25h dGUgYXMgdGhleSBhcmUgLSAgaXMKdGhlIGNvcnJlY3Qgc29sdXRpb24gdG8gcmVzaWduIGFuZCBs ZXQgb3RoZXIgcGVvcGxlIHJlcGxhY2UgdGhlbT8KCkluIG15IG9waW5pb24sIHlvdSd2ZSBhc2tl ZCB1cyB0byB2b2ljZSBhbiBvcGluaW9uIHdpdGhvdXQgcHJlc2VudGluZwppbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBu ZWNlc3NhcnkgdG8gZm9ybWluZyBhIHF1YWxpZmllZCBvcGluaW9uLiBUaGlzIGlzIG1hZGUKZXZl biBtb3JlIGRpZmZpY3VsdCAoSU1PLCBvZiBjb3Vyc2UpIHNpbmNlIG5vIGJvYXJkIG1lZXRpbmcg bWludXRlcwpoYXZlIGJlZW4gcmVsZWFzZWQgc2luY2UgTWFyY2ggMjIsIHdoaWNoIGlzIGZhc3Qg YXBwcm9hY2hpbmcgMyBtb250aHMKYWdvLgoKSSBkb24ndCBrbm93IGFsbCBvZiB0aGUgcHJvYmxl bXMgZmFjaW5nIHRoZSBib2FyZC4gSSdtIG5vdCBzdXJlIHRoYXQKSSdtIGVudGl0bGVkIHRvIGtu b3cgdGhlbS4gQnV0IGZyb20gd2hhdCBsaXR0bGUgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24gSSBoYXZlLCBJCmNhbid0 IGhlbHAgYnV0IGZlZWwgdGhhdCB0aGUgYm9hcmQgaGFzIGdvdHRlbiBtb3JlIG9wYXF1ZSBhbmQK b3ZlcndvcmtlZCBzaW5jZSBpdHMgcmVjZW50IHJlZHVjdGlvbiB0byA3IG1lbWJlcnMuIChGb3Ig dGhlIHJlY29yZCwgSQpzdGlsbCBkaXNsaWtlIHRoYXQgbm8gZ29vZCBhcmd1bWVudCB3YXMgbWFk ZSB0aGVuIGFzIHRvIHdoYXQgcHJvYmxlbXMKdGhlIHByZXZpb3VzIGJvYXJkIHdhcyBmYWNpbmcs IGFuZCB3aHkgZ2V0dGluZyByaWQgb2YgNCBwZW9wbGUgd291bGQKaGF2ZSBzb2x2ZWQgdGhvc2Ug cHJvYmxlbXMuIElNSE8sIGhpc3Rvcnkgbm93IHJlcGVhdHMgaXRzZWxmLikKCklmIGFkZGluZyAy IG1vcmUgbWVtYmVycyB3aWxsIGhlbHAgc29sdmUgdGhlIGJvYXJkJ3MgcHJvYmxlbXMgaW4gd2F5 cwp0aGF0IGRlbGVnYXRpb24gb3IgYXR0cml0aW9uIGFsb25lIGNhbid0LCB0aGVuIGdyZWF0LiBM ZXQncyBkbyBpdC4gQnV0CnBsZWFzZSwgbWFrZSBhbiBhcmd1bWVudCBpbiB0aGUgbmV4dCAzIGRh eXMgYXMgdG8gd2h5IGFkZGluZyB0aGVzZQpwZW9wbGUgd2lsbCBoZWxwIHNvbHZlIHRoZSBwcm9i bGVtLgoKQmVzdCwKRG9tCi0tIApDb3VudGluZyBib2RpZXMgbGlrZSBzaGVlcCB0byB0aGUgcmh5 dGhtIG9mIHRoZSB3YXIgZHJ1bXMuCg== From dneary@free.fr Fri Jun 9 16:48:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29F733B01F6 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:48:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19379-08 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:48:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1-g19.free.fr (smtp1-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.27]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 128893B11A4 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:48:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp1-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BCEA9ABB8 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 22:48:13 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4489DB7A.6090102@free.fr> Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 22:35:06 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060521) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Foundation-List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Draft agenda for foundation AGM during GUADEC X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 20:48:45 -0000 Hi, We will be holding a GNOME Foundation general meeting during GUADEC on Tuesday June 27th, at 14h. The agenda will be pretty basic - we will present what the board has been working on and will work on for the rest of the year, get a report on our finances from the treasurer, and have a Q&A session for the rest of the time available. The meeting is for foundation members - so please, if there are things you feel we should concentrate on, reply here with suggestions for additions, or for subjects which you consider important. The AGM is our way to communicate directly to the membership what everyone's been doing for the foundation and for the community. We won't be limiting ourselves to board activities - sinceone of the core tasks of the board is to be aware of what's going on around the foundation, and co-ordinate people when there is common interest. Cheers, Dave. Agenda ====== 1. Chairman's report Presentation of the board, and overview of the foundation's activities since last GUADEC. I will be handing off the conch to other board members for particular topics. 2. Treasurer's report The state of the finances - how much money we have, what we've spent money on, and what we plan to do with the rest. 3. Ongoing projects and their status 4. Questions & Answers -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From danw@novell.com Fri Jun 9 17:04:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 132FA3B01AB for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:04:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20767-04 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:04:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B2E43B00FE for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:04:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 20109 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 21:04:39 -0000 Received: from outbound.ximian.com (HELO ?164.99.121.40?) (danw@130.57.170.250) by peabody.ximian.com with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 21:04:39 -0000 Message-ID: <4489E254.1070900@novell.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 17:04:20 -0400 From: Dan Winship User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20060317) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606054045.GM5138@waugh.id.au> In-Reply-To: <20060606054045.GM5138@waugh.id.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.734 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.824, BAYES_05=-1.11, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2] X-Spam-Score: -1.734 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 21:04:45 -0000 Jeff Waugh wrote: > * We are attempting to do big things without the benefit of having a face > to face meeting. Every board so far has been more effective post-GUADEC, > after they've had the opportunity to sit down, grind through the issues > with a lot of social bandwidth and look each other up and down a bit. It > really helps develop shared vision, shared values and shared trust in a > way that mail, phone and IRC can't. Should we shift the election cycle by a few months then, so that GUADEC falls near the start of the new board's term, rather than halfway through? -- Dan From rml@novell.com Fri Jun 9 17:23:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7FCA3B02C9 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:23:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21648-01 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:23:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 900583B0256 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:23:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 20159 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 21:23:16 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO betsy.boston.ximian.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 21:23:16 -0000 From: Robert Love To: Dan Winship In-Reply-To: <4489E254.1070900@novell.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606054045.GM5138@waugh.id.au> <4489E254.1070900@novell.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 17:23:32 -0400 Message-Id: <1149888212.31757.191.camel@betsy.boston.ximian.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.482 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.083, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2] X-Spam-Score: -2.482 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 21:23:18 -0000 On Fri, 2006-06-09 at 17:04 -0400, Dan Winship wrote: > Should we shift the election cycle by a few months then, so that GUADEC > falls near the start of the new board's term, rather than halfway through? I am pretty sure that cheetah's don't have teeth, but I could be way off on that one. Robert Love From rml@novell.com Fri Jun 9 17:26:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9FF33B02D1 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:26:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21629-06 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:26:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C92C23B02C9 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:26:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 20164 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 21:26:14 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO betsy.boston.ximian.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 21:26:14 -0000 From: Robert Love To: Dan Winship In-Reply-To: <1149888212.31757.191.camel@betsy.boston.ximian.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606054045.GM5138@waugh.id.au> <4489E254.1070900@novell.com> <1149888212.31757.191.camel@betsy.boston.ximian.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 17:26:29 -0400 Message-Id: <1149888389.31757.193.camel@betsy.boston.ximian.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.482 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.083, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2] X-Spam-Score: -2.482 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 21:26:19 -0000 On Fri, 2006-06-09 at 17:23 -0400, Robert Love wrote: > On Fri, 2006-06-09 at 17:04 -0400, Dan Winship wrote: > > > Should we shift the election cycle by a few months then, so that GUADEC > > falls near the start of the new board's term, rather than halfway through? > > I am pretty sure that cheetah's don't have teeth, but I could be way off > on that one. There is a definite bug in Evolution. Robert Love From anne@oestergaard.nu Fri Jun 9 18:41:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3E513B0353 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 18:41:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25560-09 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 18:41:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 379E33B0101 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 18:41:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user4.cybercity.dk (user4.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.50]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2FD2245263 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 00:41:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user4.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 464415045D for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 00:41:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 1264 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 22:41:17 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 22:41:17 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: David Neary In-Reply-To: <4489DB7A.6090102@free.fr> References: <4489DB7A.6090102@free.fr> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 00:41:16 +0200 Message-Id: <1149892876.4453.220.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.539 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.060, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.539 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Foundation-List Subject: Re: Draft agenda for foundation AGM during GUADEC X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 22:41:33 -0000 fre, 09 06 2006 kl. 22:35 +0200, skrev David Neary: > Hi, > > We will be holding a GNOME Foundation general meeting during GUADEC on > Tuesday June 27th, at 14h. > > The agenda will be pretty basic - we will present what the board has > been working on and will work on for the rest of the year, get a report > on our finances from the treasurer, and have a Q&A session for the rest > of the time available. > > The meeting is for foundation members - so please, if there are things > you feel we should concentrate on, reply here with suggestions for > additions, or for subjects which you consider important. > > The AGM is our way to communicate directly to the membership what > everyone's been doing for the foundation and for the community. We won't > be limiting ourselves to board activities - sinceone of the core tasks since one > of the board is to be aware of what's going on around the foundation, > and co-ordinate people when there is common interest. > > Cheers, > Dave. > > Agenda > ====== > > 1. Chairman's report > > Presentation of the board, and overview of the foundation's activities > since last GUADEC. I will be handing off the conch to other board > members for particular topics. > > 2. Treasurer's report > > The state of the finances - how much money we have, what we've spent > money on, and what we plan to do with the rest. > > 3. Ongoing projects and their status > > 4. Questions & Answers Looks fine to me. Thanks Dave. Anne From jdub@waugh.id.au Sat Jun 10 03:27:16 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D9D63B021F for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 03:27:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15839-04 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 03:27:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A4FE3B01B7 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 03:27:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (ppp121-112.static.internode.on.net [150.101.121.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27C473C362 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:27:12 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6E7653F55; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:27:03 +1000 (EST) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:27:03 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060610072703.GG5138@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606054045.GM5138@waugh.id.au> <4489E254.1070900@novell.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <4489E254.1070900@novell.com> Reply-By: Tue Jun 13 16:55:45 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 16:55:45 up 8 days, 16:47, 10 users, load average: 0.06, 0.09, 0.03 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.448 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.448 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 07:27:16 -0000 > Jeff Waugh wrote: > > * We are attempting to do big things without the benefit of having a > > face to face meeting. Every board so far has been more effective > > post-GUADEC, after they've had the opportunity to sit down, grind > > through the issues with a lot of social bandwidth and look each other > > up and down a bit. It really helps develop shared vision, shared values > > and shared trust in a way that mail, phone and IRC can't. > > Should we shift the election cycle by a few months then, so that GUADEC > falls near the start of the new board's term, rather than halfway through? I'd like to, and proposed it during my previous term, but it wasn't pursued (probably a combination of my year off, other important structural changes going on, and indecision about how to kick it off - delay the elections by five months or shift them ahead by four?). Aiming for elections in May would probably be best - I'll add this to the board agenda, thanks! - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ "Trying to get a PC to analyse one of the most abstract forms of language - the poem - is like trying to drill for oil with a banana." - The Register From aguelzow@pyrshep.ca Mon Jun 5 14:59:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EAD83B0A25 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:59:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23291-09 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:59:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.mail.interbaun.com (smtp01.mail.interbaun.com [199.185.130.39]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEF373B09D1 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:59:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 14439 invoked by uid 502); 5 Jun 2006 18:59:31 -0000 Received: from 226.207-229-35-0.interbaun.com (207.229.35.226) by smtp01.mail.interbaun.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 18:59:31 -0000 From: "Andreas J. Guelzow" To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 12:58:39 -0600 Message-Id: <1149533919.6058.5.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 16:16:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 18:59:45 -0000 On Mon, 2006-05-06 at 13:21 -0400, Dominic Lachowicz wrote: > > Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > > > > Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > > everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. > > It doesn't seem to be entirely arbitrary. The 3 "appointees" were the > next 3 highest vote-getters in the 2005 elections. In other words, they lost the election. > > http://foundation.gnome.org/vote/results.php?election_id=2 > > > candidacy statement for the next election. But, they can't be members of > > the board without an election. > > The Foundation's charter apparently says (in at least two places) that > they can appoint members without an election: > > http://foundation.gnome.org/about/charter/ > > "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows, > subject to approval by the board or referendum of the membership." > > "Between elections, board vacancies or new board slots shall be filled > by appointment by the board of directors." This is different from temporarily appointing 2 additional members. Of course the board can add new seats, but they will then be permanent until (again?) removed via a referendum. Andreas From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Sat Jun 10 19:23:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F2583B0250 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:23:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31888-05 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:23:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5649B3B00BE for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:23:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 25487 invoked by uid 0); 10 Jun 2006 23:03:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.33]) (83.55.171.219) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:03:01 +0000 From: Quim Gil To: Dominic Lachowicz In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606090831h34982de3u16db61e5308242ec@mail.gmail.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149860019.4453.144.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606090831h34982de3u16db61e5308242ec@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-KTaz04E3pQ5RiXxb3JWq" Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 01:03:01 +0200 Message-Id: <1149980581.5208.64.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.421 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=1.178, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -1.421 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:23:34 -0000 --=-KTaz04E3pQ5RiXxb3JWq Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Dom, El dv 09 de 06 del 2006 a les 11:31 -0400, en/na Dominic Lachowicz va escriure: > What > problems is the board facing that cannot be handled by the current > members plus delegation as appropriate? This is a good question (the other ones as well, but at least I can say something about this one). In the board meeting of last Wednesday we discussed possible and easy to implement ways to improve the communication and collaboration between the board and people willing to have a higher implication and participation in foundation/board tasks.=20 Good communication eases collaboration, and good collaboration eases trust. Trust is the root of many problems of delegation: sharing or delegating a private task to someone you trust and collaborate takes 5 minutes (ok, maybe more). The same action without regular communication-collaboration-trust takes more time, and risk. Jeff is preparing a proposal. I just wanted to provide some informal and personal feedback so you don't think that the board is keeping the temporary enlargement as the only or primary option to consider. > IMHO, history now repeats itself.) Another interesting point, that brings an issue... In our current setting it is very unlikely that the current board is going to criticize openly something specific about the last board. I believe the way the board is mounted and unmounted every year makes difficult to make (self)criticism openly. It's not like one party losing an election and a new party coming in (system that has its defects but at least assures criticism and review of the past actions). This is not something unique to the GNOME Foundation, this is a problem intrinsic in any organization voting for individuals that suddenly need to work as a compact team, and then be renewed quite often (like once a year). The problem is clearer when some individuals repeat, and some come in for the first time. Maybe a solution would be that the team leaving the board makes not only a meeting with the new board members, but also a last internal meeting to write up a public report of which things went well and why, and which things went bad and why. And/or a summary of the same questions answered individually by each board member. Hackers know that documenting is the best way to avoid known mistakes. --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-KTaz04E3pQ5RiXxb3JWq Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEi0+kBEzHYk6x634RAqbeAJ9KM9xYm0T4wGYCpXUQewmeO2aZMgCeL2F/ 880R+hSnd79e/n/kwcLeFpg= =HToh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-KTaz04E3pQ5RiXxb3JWq-- From dneary@free.fr Mon Jun 12 03:55:04 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BAE23B00D4 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 03:55:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24556-10 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 03:54:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp12.wanadoo.fr (smtp12.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.20]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32A523B0186 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 03:54:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf1201.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 2B0571C00089; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 09:54:39 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060612075439176.2B0571C00089@mwinf1201.orange.fr Message-ID: <448D1DCC.7090102@free.fr> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 09:54:52 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Neary References: <4489DB7A.6090102@free.fr> In-Reply-To: <4489DB7A.6090102@free.fr> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Foundation-List Subject: Re: Draft agenda for foundation AGM during GUADEC X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 07:55:04 -0000 Hi, David Neary wrote: > The agenda will be pretty basic - we will present what the board has > been working on and will work on for the rest of the year, get a report > on our finances from the treasurer, and have a Q&A session for the rest > of the time available. Following on from feedback, a partial list of the various initiatives and projects we'll be including is below: > Agenda > ====== > > 1. Chairman's report > > Presentation of the board, and overview of the foundation's activities > since last GUADEC. I will be handing off the conch to other board > members for particular topics. * Documentation contract * Public service * Foundation administrator role * Google SoC * Foundation organised/funded Conferences * Conference presence - EclipseCon, LinuxWorld, FOSDEM, linux.conf.au, ... * Event boxes * Communication & promotion > 2. Treasurer's report > > The state of the finances - how much money we have, what we've spent > money on, and what we plan to do with the rest. > > 3. Ongoing projects and their status * Web site redesign * Trademark agreements * Executive director * Merchandising (dormant) > 4. Questions & Answers Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From federico@ximian.com Mon Jun 12 11:55:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEDC73B009D for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:55:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09055-01 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:55:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB46E3B0078 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:55:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 21660 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2006 15:52:35 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?192.168.1.101?) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 12 Jun 2006 15:52:35 -0000 From: Federico Mena Quintero To: foundation-list@gnome.org, foundation-announce-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 10:48:18 -0500 Message-Id: <1150127298.17566.47.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Minutes of the Board meeting, 2006/Apr/05 X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:55:13 -0000 Dusting out the drawer of old minutes... GNOME Foundation Board Meeting, 2006/04/05 ========================================== Attendance: Dave (Chairing, minutes) Vincent Luis Jonathan Rosanna Jeff (0:10) Regrets: Anne Missing: Federico Actions: Luis to mail boston-social@gnome.org to look for volunteers to represent us at Boston Usenix and Boston LWE - DONE! Dave to be our liaison with marketing-list to set up the basic structure of the new www.gnome.org - ongoing Dave to request a contract from Quim for GUADEC - ongoing. We expect something by Easter. Federico to mail advisory-board-list about what members would like to obtain from the Foundation. - We'll pick it up at the meeting. Jeff to write a proposal for the technical project meeting. - ongoing. Jeff describes Ghosts of past Conferences. Something we should do for GUADEC. Luis to send mail RE LWE/Usenix: done GUADEC meetings - Deciding dates & times for advisory board and board meetings Board meeting before and Advisory after is a good idea. -Dave: We should split up the all-day board meeting so we don't wear out. -Advisory board is on Thursday, June 29th Advisory board - Preparing the meeting - Need an agenda - luis: Should we keep it to a single agenda? - bolsh: Want to turn it into something where they go to them frequently - jeff: turn it into a long term agenda Action: Get Advisory board rep for RH -Done: Gerry Riveros is representing Advisory Board fees - -We're going to go to a January billing period. Prorate people. No one has been billed yet. Axis Informática wanting to sell products with the GNOME logo (see Rodrigo's mail) -Reuse the german contract for this group (initially) -Turn it into a generic TM agreemark that people can use -Action: Contact lawyers to make sure our generic contract can work. Federico From federico@ximian.com Mon Jun 12 11:56:06 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0BB33B009D for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:56:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08921-07 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:56:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69BDF3B0010 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:56:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 21665 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2006 15:54:57 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?192.168.1.101?) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 12 Jun 2006 15:54:57 -0000 From: Federico Mena Quintero To: foundation-list@gnome.org, foundation-announce-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 10:50:41 -0500 Message-Id: <1150127441.17566.48.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Minutes of the Board meeting, 2006/Apr/26 X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:56:06 -0000 GNOME Foundation Board Meeting, 2006/04/26 ========================================== Attendance: =========== Dave Neary (Chairing, minutes) Luis Villa Anne Oestergaard Vincent Untz Jeff Waugh Missing: ======== Jonathan Blandford (arrived :50) Federico Mena Quintero Actions ======= * Dave to request a contract from Quim for GUADEC - ongoing * Jeff to write a proposal for the technical project meeting - outside scope of the board * Dave to resurrect German contract from last year so that we can use it for Axis Informática - ongoing (sent to foundation-list for round of feedback) New actions =========== ACTION: Announce US event box & contents (Vincent) ACTION: Announce final shortlist of GUADEC 07 candidates (Anne) ACTION: Dave to get feedback off Dom on the old contract, and mail the result on to foundation list ACTION: Anne to contact Tim for the name of the lawyer who worked on the agreement last year Agenda: ======= 1. Administrator * Process for hiring full-time executive director * Refine job description, and talk about the profile we're looking for We would like to hire an executive director to develop business strategy and manage our relationships with commercial and non-profit partners. We're going to take the time to hire the right person. We also need to make sure basic administration and accounting are taken care of in a timely fashion. We can continue to hire a part time administrator or out-source office services. It was agreed that outsourcing in the Boston area, where our lawyers and accountants are located, makes sense. 2. Summer of Code * Let's make sure GNOME does better (from an organisational point of view) this time Vincent and Behdad took care of organising GNOME for this. 3. GUADEC 2007 - declare list of candidates Candidates to be proposed publically on foundation-list for a public comments period. 4. Decision for the US event box (Carried on mailing list: no discussion needed) -- Federico Mena Quintero From federico@ximian.com Mon Jun 12 12:01:35 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CA2A3B008A for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 12:01:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09149-02 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 12:01:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6C8B3B0100 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 12:00:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 21670 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2006 15:59:08 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?192.168.1.101?) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 12 Jun 2006 15:59:08 -0000 From: Federico Mena Quintero To: foundation-list@gnome.org, foundation-announce-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 10:54:52 -0500 Message-Id: <1150127692.17566.50.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Minutes of the Board meeting, 2006/May/17 X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 16:01:35 -0000 GNOME Foundation Board Meeting, 2006/05/17 ========================================== Attendance: Anne Federico (minutes) Jonathan Vincent No attendance: Dave (regrets) Luis (regrets) Jeff We started the meeting on IRC since there was trouble with the phone access code. JRB came in later, fixed our code, and we started the phone meeting around 45 minutes after the IRC one. PREVIOUS ACTIONS ================ * Dave to ask Dom to refine/reduce the German contract: DONE, RFC gone to foundation-list * Anne to announce final list of GUADEC 2007 candidates: DONE. * Vincent to announce North American event box: DONE. * Luis to find out which lawyer we worked with on the contract revisions last year: NOT DONE. * JRB to get quotes for back-office services, via Owen: NOT DONE. * Jeff to send Embedded agenda to board list: NOT DONE. NEW ACTIONS =========== * Luis to find out which lawyer we worked with on the contract revisions last year (carried over from previous actions). * JRB to get quotes for back-office services, via Owen (carried over from previous actions). * Jeff and Vincent to send Embedded agenda to board list (carried over from previous actions). * Federico to send a draft job announcement to board-list for the executive director and the administrator. * Federico to write an agenda for the next Advisory Board meeting, to take place on May 31st. [Taken up by Dave] * JRB to mail board-list about invoicing Intel (hard disk crash). * JRB to send an update on what hardware has been bought for the event box. * Quim to contact HP and Novell about sponsorship for GUADEC. * Federico to mail Quim/Behdad/Germán about replacing Luis. AGENDA ====== * Invoicing GUADEC sponsors & advisory board members - Pending paperwork. * Handling conference finances - need to ask Dave about mailing Quim. * Buying stuff for the event box - how, when, what, who - need volunteers. * Financial situation - no change. * Merchandising contract - it has gone to foundation-list. * GUADEC - no update. * Ad board - we're due another meeting, it's been a month. How about in a fortnight? (UPDATE: a fortnight from now) Yes, it will be on May 31st. Federico to send an agenda and announcement. * GUADEC 2007 - It would be nice to have a public request for comments period. (UPDATE: Anne has said she'll take care of this). It's in foundation-list now. * Administrator - type of person we want, process for getting the hire going, the usual. We need to start moving forward on that, seriously. We need a full-time person working for us. No quotes for outsourcing yet. From federico@ximian.com Mon Jun 12 13:57:30 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3C333B0943 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 13:57:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21275-07 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 13:57:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 949C23B0150 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 12:07:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 21703 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2006 16:06:26 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?192.168.1.101?) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 12 Jun 2006 16:06:26 -0000 From: Federico Mena Quintero To: foundation-list@gnome.org, foundation-announce@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:02:10 -0500 Message-Id: <1150128130.17566.52.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Minutes of the Board meeting, 2006/Jun/07 X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 17:57:30 -0000 GNOME Foundation Board Meeting, 2006/06/07 ========================================== Attendance: Anne Dave Federico Jeff Jonathan Quim (welcome, Quim!) No attendance: Vincent (regrets) PREVIOUS ACTIONS ================ PUBLIC: * Dave to request a contract from Quim for GUADEC: IN PROGRESS. Quim is taking care of this. * Dave to resurrect German contract from last year so that we can use it for Axis Informática. IN PROGRESS. Needs to go to the lawyer. * Jeff to write a proposal for the technical project meeting: IN PROGRESS * Federico to send a draft job announcement to board-list for the executive director and the administrator: NOT DONE * Federico to write an agenda for the next Advisory Board meeting, to take place on May 31st. DONE, the meeting happened. * JRB to send an update on what hardware has been bought for the event box: IN PROGRESS. * JRB to mail board-list about invoicing Intel (hard disk crash): Quim to take this action. * Quim to contact HP and Novell about sponsorship for GUADEC. DONE - both sponsoring * Federico to mail Quim/Behdad/Germán about replacing Luis. DONE NEW ACTIONS =========== * Federico to send minutes from the Advisory Board meeting to advisory-board-list. * JRB to post the contact info for the lawyer / accountant to board-list and the wiki. * Federico to make the announcement for the part-time administrator. * Jeff to write a proposal for the subcommittees. * Jeff to ensure that all the board members are in the marketing-private and board-only lists. * Dave to send draft agenda for the Advisory Board meeting, based on Federico's paper. * Anne to to take over contacts with GNOME's legal partners. AGENDA ====== * Welcome Quim to the Board: - Gave Quim a brief update on what the Board has been doing. - Quim told us that he has been reading the board-list minutes but not the archives. * Figuring out how to execute all the pending actions, and not be swamped in pending stuff all the time: - NEW ACTION: JRB to post the contact info for the lawyer / accountant to board-list and the wiki. - We are going to need a presence in the USA no matter what, for legal matters in the Foundation. * Administrator hire / outsourcing: - NEW ACTION: Federico to make the announcement for the part-time administrator. - We want to hire someone part-time immediately and will announce the vacancy and ask Zana to submit a candidature. * Increasing the board size: - Idea about letting people into board-list and into the phone calls, without them being board members. Then they can volunteer to do some of the tasks that the board can't do effectively (like someone in the USA to look for an administrator). - NEW ACTION: Jeff to write a proposal for the subcommittees. * Agendas for GUADEC: - Let's send provisional agendas in advance. - NEW ACTION: Dave to send draft agenda for the Advisory Board meeting, based on Federico's paper. From behdad.esfahbod@gmail.com Thu Jun 15 17:38:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10A073B0011 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2006 17:38:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02101-02 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2006 17:38:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.235]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CCB93B0305 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2006 17:38:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 37so427821wra for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2006 14:38:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.108.13 with SMTP id g13mr2187733wrc; Thu, 15 Jun 2006 14:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.190.5? ( [72.136.156.47]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 6sm1544376wrl.2006.06.15.14.38.10; Thu, 15 Jun 2006 14:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Women's Summer Outreach Program 2006 From: Behdad Esfahbod To: gnome-hackers@gnome.org, foundation-list@gnome.org, foundation-announce@gnome.org, gnome-announce-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 17:38:06 -0400 Message-Id: <1150407487.29623.12.camel@home> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 (2.6.1-1.fc5.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: Behdad Esfahbod X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 21:38:54 -0000 GNOME to Sponsor Female Developers in a Summer Outreach Program BOSTON, Mass - June 13, 2006 - The GNOME Foundation is offering USD$9000 to female students in order to promote the participation of women in GNOME-related development. The money originates from GNOME's participation in the Google "Summer of Code" program (code.google.com/soc/), for which GNOME developers will mentor 20 students working throughout the northern summer on GNOME-related projects. This year GNOME received 181 applications to Google's program, yet none were from women. The GNOME Foundation has therefore chosen to reinvest Google's contribution into a new program designed to increase the participation of women in GNOME. The program has no official relationship with Google. "Free software prides itself on being open to anyone with a good idea, yet less than 2% of free software developers are female. We, as a community, need to be actively working to change this statistic, and programs like this one are a much needed step in the right direction." said Hanna Wallach, a GNOME developer who is involved in several projects that encourage women to participate in free software development. The Women's Summer Outreach Program is currently accepting applications from female students. Accepted students will receive a stipend of USD $3000 over a two month period. A pool of project ideas is provided at www.gnome.org/projects/wsop/, though original proposals are also encouraged. Projects may either be related to GNOME directly, or indirectly via projects such as Gstreamer and Abiword. Each student will be assigned a mentor to provide guidance throughout the program. Vincent Untz, member of the GNOME Foundation board and coordinator of the GNOME team for Google's "Summer of Code" program, explained: "Many women have the skills required to contribute to Free Software projects like GNOME, but may not see an opportunity to start working with us. By initiating this program, not only do we want to highlight the issue, but we also hope that this opportunity will help more women to get involved in the long term." Applications should be submitted using the form at www.gnome.org/projects/wsop/. More information about the application process may be found at the same location. From mark@galassi.org Sun Jun 11 01:20:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CD043B0074; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 01:20:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11497-01; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 01:20:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agora.rdrop.com (agora.rdrop.com [199.26.172.34]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 277D23B00C1; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 01:20:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (67-42-116-199.albq.qwest.net [67.42.116.199]) (authenticated bits=0) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id k5B5IxaM059197 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 10 Jun 2006 22:19:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@galassi.org) To: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> From: Mark Galassi Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:18:04 -0600 In-Reply-To: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> (Federico Mena Quintero's message of "Fri, 09 Jun 2006 09:35:42 -0500") Message-ID: <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (agora.rdrop.com [199.26.172.34]); Sat, 10 Jun 2006 22:19:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.465 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.465 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 05:53:15 -0400 Cc: foundation-announce@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 05:20:27 -0000 Federico> 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. I hope that it will be a firm requirement that only free s/w be used to run the Foundation's administration. I know you are only talking about literacy, not what tools will be used, but I think this is a good moment to state that if we start hiring non-free-sw-hackers to do this kind of work, we should insist that they use free tools. I still remember my sadness when I worked for Cygnus and saw that the non-developers did not use free s/w across the board. From rms@gnu.org Sat Jun 17 15:56:39 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A04183B01A6; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:56:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05890-09; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:56:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7F0E3B0061; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:56:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1Frgt3-0006cU-Ba; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:55:17 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Mark Galassi In-reply-to: <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> (message from Mark Galassi on Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:18:04 -0600) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Message-Id: Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:55:17 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.549 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.051, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.549 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-announce@gnome.org, foundation-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:56:39 -0000 Federico> 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. Unless you're looking for kernel hackers, please make that "GNU/Linux literate". You probably want people who know how to edit with Emacs, write code to compile with GCC, debug with GDB, and call functions in GLIBC and GTK+. From alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk Sat Jun 17 18:05:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E96D3B095C; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:05:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11915-05; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:05:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (unknown [81.2.110.250]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8C153B0995; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:05:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k5HMK9aZ010673; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:20:09 +0100 Received: (from alan@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k5HMK8a3010672; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:20:08 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: alan set sender to alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk using -f Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Alan Cox To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:20:08 +0100 Message-Id: <1150582808.10649.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.2 (2.6.2-1.fc5.5) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.589 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.010, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.589 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-announce@gnome.org, foundation-list@gnome.org, Mark Galassi X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 22:05:03 -0000 Ar Sad, 2006-06-17 am 15:55 -0400, ysgrifennodd Richard Stallman: > Unless you're looking for kernel hackers, > please make that "GNU/Linux literate". Linux is a trademark in the USA. The use of GNU/Linux without indicating the trademark is inappropriately confusing the registered mark. And last time I checked GNOME was not a GNU project. Alan From jrb@redhat.com Sat Jun 17 18:12:06 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E29BF3B095C; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:12:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12356-02; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:12:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [66.187.233.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 567043B035D; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:12:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5HL9w54017447; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 17:09:58 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (devserv.devel.redhat.com [172.16.58.1]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5HL9wAk007091; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 17:09:58 -0400 Received: from vpn50-83.rdu.redhat.com (vpn50-83.rdu.redhat.com [172.16.50.83]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5HL9wrV027671; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 17:09:58 -0400 Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Jonathan Blandford To: Mark Galassi In-Reply-To: <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-Nx9mtySaFKPPRo++4u3H" Organization: Red Hat, Inc. Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 17:09:57 -0400 Message-Id: <1150578597.2841.94.camel@peach> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.2 (2.6.2-1.fc5.5) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.583 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.583 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-announce@gnome.org, foundation-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 22:12:06 -0000 --=-Nx9mtySaFKPPRo++4u3H Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, 2006-06-10 at 23:18 -0600, Mark Galassi wrote: > Federico> 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. >=20 > I hope that it will be a firm requirement that only free s/w be used > to run the Foundation's administration. >=20 > I know you are only talking about literacy, not what tools will be > used, but I think this is a good moment to state that if we start > hiring non-free-sw-hackers to do this kind of work, we should insist > that they use free tools. >=20 > I still remember my sadness when I worked for Cygnus and saw that the > non-developers did not use free s/w across the board. Right now, we use free tools to run almost all the foundation's books. We use gnucash, abiword, glabels[1] and gnucash for the bookkeeping. The GNOME tools are more than adequate to handle the Foundation's needs. We do have a vmware instance to run Internet Explorer just for online banking. No one on the board is happy with this situation, and we're planning on switching banks over this issue. Thanks, -Jonathan [1] which is a really nice and underpromoted program. Many kudos to the authors for doing such a slick job on this application. --=-Nx9mtySaFKPPRo++4u3H Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBElG+lEXFTqNjUZNwRAl8xAJ0anqoLKt5dgU454m1WNN3cMSw0DgCgnxu2 uNT01EAS78FHMGmDtvrSe4U= =96VV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-Nx9mtySaFKPPRo++4u3H-- From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Sat Jun 17 18:17:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EF873B035D for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:17:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12134-06 for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:17:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 740AD3B00EC for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:17:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 22052 invoked by uid 0); 17 Jun 2006 22:09:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.34]) (83.55.163.198) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 22:09:23 +0000 Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Quim Gil To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-BKWWivCcc2A9dMiCc/lk" Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 00:09:23 +0200 Message-Id: <1150582163.5117.119.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.489 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=1.110, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -1.489 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, Mark Galassi X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 22:17:36 -0000 --=-BKWWivCcc2A9dMiCc/lk Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El ds 17 de 06 del 2006 a les 15:55 -0400, en/na Richard Stallman va escriure: > Federico> 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. >=20 > Unless you're looking for kernel hackers, > please make that "GNU/Linux literate". In fact, in this case it would be most accurate to say "Preferably free software literate", since the skills we require from this administrator are focused on the usage of office/desktop applications. Maybe we should have simply asked for someone "preferably GNOME user". :) > You probably want people who know how to edit with Emacs, > write code to compile with GCC, debug with GDB, and call > functions in GLIBC and GTK+. Well, not at all. We are looking for an administrator (accounting, bookkeeping and so on) and not for a system administrator or a developer. Think more on the basic Internet tools, word processors, spreadsheets and accounting applications. About making this preference for free software literacy a requirement, I agree the desirable scenario would be to have an accountant hired by the GNOME Foundation and working with GNOME. But we need an accountant, urgently. Finding candidates is not easy, and the priority is to find the best accountant available. If this person doesn't know perfectly how to use the free tools available s/he can learn. Very different of hiring a great free software user/developer with just regular administrative skills. Help us finding a great administrator with the free software skills needed, and problem solved. :) PS: Richard, looking forward to seeing you next week in Barcelona. --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-BKWWivCcc2A9dMiCc/lk Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBElH2TBEzHYk6x634RAtXIAKCLt4AFrMI1nTSPHx6Jb/37wjIccgCgjaMF xsTDfjS15mNraeZqZMLEn18= =5H0p -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-BKWWivCcc2A9dMiCc/lk-- From csaavedr@wh8.tu-dresden.de Sat Jun 17 19:20:25 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEB543B00AA for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:20:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14208-01 for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:20:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de (B202a.WH8.tu-dresden.de [141.30.225.153]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 945613B0072 for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:20:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from claudio by b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1Fri1j-00079r-O8; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:08:19 +0200 Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Claudio Saavedra To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:08:19 +0200 Message-Id: <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.7.2.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.511 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=1.088, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -1.511 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, Mark Galassi X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:20:25 -0000 On Sat, 2006-06-17 at 15:55 -0400, Richard Stallman wrote: > Federico> 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. > > Unless you're looking for kernel hackers, > please make that "GNU/Linux literate". > You probably want people who know how to edit with Emacs, > write code to compile with GCC, debug with GDB, and call > functions in GLIBC and GTK+. Even when you are right regarding the probably-irrelevant-in-context GNU/Linux issue, it worths noting that the Foundation is looking for an administrator, not a hacker. That is clearly stated in Federico's e-mail title and body. Claudio -- Claudio Saavedra From ross@golder.org Sun Jun 18 01:32:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE8D33B0078 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 01:32:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25300-01 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 01:32:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from black.golder.org (black.golder.org [81.6.249.35]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F5E73B0077 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 01:32:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by black.golder.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 912E14A91; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 06:31:48 +0100 (BST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at golder.org Received: from black.golder.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (black.golder.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N7kkDs0z54xW; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 06:31:46 +0100 (BST) Received: from [10.175.76.210] (unknown [203.170.228.172]) by black.golder.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32A6C3FE2; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 06:31:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Ross Golder To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:30:54 +0700 Message-Id: <1150608655.10699.15.camel@red> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.427 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.614, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.558] X-Spam-Score: -0.427 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, Mark Galassi X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 05:32:52 -0000 On Sat, 2006-06-17 at 15:55 -0400, Richard Stallman wrote: > You probably want people who know how to edit with Emacs, > write code to compile with GCC, debug with GDB, and call > functions in GLIBC and GTK+. I don't think that's exactly what the board had in mind when said they were after an 'administrator'. I think the requirement was to be computer literate in the sense of being able to use 'normal' user-based applications, such as word processors and spreadsheets, to manage the day-to-day running of the foundation. If they're handy with Emacs, GCC and the rest, they'd probably be wasted on doing the admin job described ;) -- Ross From rms@gnu.org Sun Jun 18 12:27:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09B433B08DE for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:27:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02641-10 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:27:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F22B23B0739 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:27:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1Fs06n-0005PA-9D; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:26:45 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Alan Cox In-reply-to: <1150582808.10649.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> (message from Alan Cox on Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:20:08 +0100) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150582808.10649.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-Id: Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:26:45 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.553 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.047, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.553 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 16:27:41 -0000 Linux is a trademark in the USA. The use of GNU/Linux without indicating the trademark is inappropriately confusing the registered mark. I could ask lawyers whether you are right, but I think there is no need to ask them unless someone makes a legal complaint. The FSF has never received one. The system as used today is basically GNU, but Linux is also an important component. We call it "GNU/Linux" partly so as to give the developers of Linux a share of the credit for the combination. If the developers of Linux prefer not to receive this share of the credit, they need only say so publicly; then if we stop adding "/Linux", people will understand that in doing so we are responding to their wishes. And last time I checked GNOME was not a GNU project. GNOME is part of the GNU project, but the two questions are independent. From rms@gnu.org Sun Jun 18 12:27:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCE733B0B52 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:27:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02678-07 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:27:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A58EF3B0862 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:27:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1Fs06o-0005PM-L2; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:26:46 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Claudio Saavedra In-reply-to: <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> (message from Claudio Saavedra on Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:08:19 +0200) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> Message-Id: Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:26:46 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.553 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.047, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.553 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 16:27:58 -0000 Even when you are right regarding the probably-irrelevant-in-context GNU/Linux issue, it worths noting that the Foundation is looking for an administrator, not a hacker. That is clearly stated in Federico's e-mail title and body. You're right; I had forgotten that. (I was looking at Mark's message which quoted those lines, not at Federico's message.) I'm sorry for causing some confusion. I ought to have said, Since you're not looking for kernel hackers, please make that "GNU/Linux literate". You probably want someone who knows how to edit with Emacs, do accounting with GNUcash and Gnumeric, operate GNOME, etc. (Quim Gil pointed out that it may be necessary to hire someone who isn't GNU/Linux literate, just to get someone soon. I'm not trying to dispute that question.) From dneary@free.fr Sun Jun 18 20:04:50 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01C193B016D for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:04:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15953-08 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:04:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from postfix1-c.free.fr (postfix1-c.free.fr [213.228.0.79]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C03463B00D9 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:04:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp4-g19.free.fr (smtp4-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.30]) by postfix1-c.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 153F01D0F8CA for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 19:47:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp4-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id B025D54B4D; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:46:55 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:46:51 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 00:04:50 -0000 Richard Stallman wrote: > Since you're not looking for kernel hackers, > please make that "GNU/Linux literate". > You probably want someone who knows how to edit with Emacs, > do accounting with GNUcash and Gnumeric, operate GNOME, etc. > > (Quim Gil pointed out that it may be necessary to hire someone > who isn't GNU/Linux literate, just to get someone soon. > I'm not trying to dispute that question.) In reality, we will likely hire someone who is already competent in the use of free software - but I agree with Quim that this should not be a requirement (obviously (at least to me), *using* free software will be part of the job, where possible). Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Mon Jun 19 02:11:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 126B23B00F5 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 02:11:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27639-03 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 02:11:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DDBF53B0768 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 02:11:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 9391 invoked by uid 0); 19 Jun 2006 03:43:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.34]) (83.57.177.1) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 03:43:17 +0000 Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Quim Gil To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-QZNJhnZwbMcdr5TNaRP4" Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 05:43:17 +0200 Message-Id: <1150688597.5156.27.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.221 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.378, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.221 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 06:11:33 -0000 --=-QZNJhnZwbMcdr5TNaRP4 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El dg 18 de 06 del 2006 a les 12:26 -0400, en/na Richard Stallman va escriure: > (Quim Gil pointed out that it may be necessary to hire someone > who isn't GNU/Linux literate, just to get someone soon. Just to avoid confusion, I didn't meant to hire someone who isn't free software literate to use non-free software tools as a GNOME administrator, but come and learn the usage of the free tools the Foundation is already using (detailed by Jonathan). A good administrator knowing the concepts and knowing to use non-free tools is very likely to learn the usage of the free tools easily. That's all. As Dave has pointed out, we have already at least one candidate able to use the current free tools. --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-QZNJhnZwbMcdr5TNaRP4 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBElh1VBEzHYk6x634RAk/wAJ9NJcxJMd5BaRvAE2lNm76/zlYR7gCfViG9 +4NfH+cpdGBCEPYrHBcIv9o= =rwa9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-QZNJhnZwbMcdr5TNaRP4-- From rms@gnu.org Mon Jun 19 16:09:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D20B3B0D15 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 16:09:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30107-07 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 16:09:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A0613B0217 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 16:09:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1FsQ39-00075Z-0M; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 16:08:43 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: David Neary In-reply-to: <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> (message from David Neary on Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:46:51 +0200) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> Message-Id: Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 16:08:43 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.56 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.040, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.56 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 20:09:41 -0000 In reality, we will likely hire someone who is already competent in the use of free software - but I agree with Quim that this should not be a requirement (obviously (at least to me), *using* free software will be part of the job, where possible). I think the Foundation should absolutely insist on using only free software. That way it will lead by example. From jdub@waugh.id.au Mon Jun 19 22:51:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED0A33B05A6 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:51:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18924-10 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D5A53B0301 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (unknown [81.80.162.93]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CF053C56C for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:50:56 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id F0999410E; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 04:28:04 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 04:28:04 +0200 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation Message-ID: <20060620022804.GB5152@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-25-686 i686 Reply-By: Fri Jun 23 04:26:14 CEST 2006 X-Uptime: 04:26:14 up 8:30, 5 users, load average: 0.02, 0.07, 0.03 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.59 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.009, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.59 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 02:51:52 -0000 > In reality, we will likely hire someone who is already competent in the > use of free software - but I agree with Quim that this should not be a > requirement (obviously (at least to me), *using* free software will be > part of the job, where possible). > > I think the Foundation should absolutely insist on using only free > software. That way it will lead by example. That is not under question. The suggestion Quim made is that having *prior experience* in the use of Free Software need not be necessary - however, the successful applicant will *absolutely* USE Free Software in their role, no questions asked. - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ "The GPL is good. Use it. Don't be silly." - Michael Meeks From dneary@free.fr Tue Jun 20 02:45:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B618A3B0248 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 02:45:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30248-07 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 02:45:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp6.orange.fr (smtp6.orange.fr [193.252.22.25]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41B9C3B0085 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 02:45:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp6.orange.fr (mwinf0604 [172.22.137.26]) by mwinf0610.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 2703A804F6D for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:43:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf0604.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 61BB21C001CE; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:43:18 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060620064318400.61BB21C001CE@mwinf0604.orange.fr Message-ID: <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:43:43 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 06:45:20 -0000 Hi, Richard Stallman wrote: > In reality, we will likely hire someone who is already competent in the > use of free software - but I agree with Quim that this should not be a > requirement (obviously (at least to me), *using* free software will be > part of the job, where possible). > > I think the Foundation should absolutely insist on using only free > software. That way it will lead by example. As Jonathan pointed out, our bank has a website which does some rather evil platform detection, and refuses to run on anything other than IE. So we are obliged to have a Windows instance installed, or we can not use this bank's online services. We have made our issue known, and are investigating changing banks. Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From baris@teamforce.name.tr Tue Jun 20 04:44:28 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B05333B0F52 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 04:44:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03469-07 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 04:44:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nerd.com.tr (unknown [69.60.117.115]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 354883B0F3F for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 04:44:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nerd.com.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52DE578503C; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 05:47:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nerd.com.tr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (nerd.com.tr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06570-08; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 05:47:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (unknown [81.213.157.51]) by nerd.com.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C6AA78503B; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 05:47:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Baris Cicek To: Dave Neary In-Reply-To: <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-PXVkvwvUKTNQvc8SbOVI" Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 11:43:47 +0300 Message-Id: <1150793027.2669.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 (2.6.1-1.fc5.2) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at nerd.com.tr X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.26 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.339, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.26 X-Spam-Level: Cc: mark@galassi.org, rms@gnu.org, foundation-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:44:28 -0000 --=-PXVkvwvUKTNQvc8SbOVI Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That might be a little technical and maybe out of this discussion boundaries but, why instead of making IE run over wine, you use more than necessary non-free software? (ie. Windows, VMWARE). I bet are already paid, but I use wine for IE related stuff, and it "just works". Besides, I find Linux (or GNU/Linux) literate expression a little problematic, because generally people use Computer Literate, and by default thinking it as Windows computer. To overcome this issue, best thing to do might be to call it as Computer Literate, and list the applications that applicant should know like OpenOffice.org and Firefox, gnuCash and even Linux. Once you know this applications, I doubt Linux Desktop learning curve would be steep for any applicant. This way it might solve the problem for those who would not apply for job since they don't know Linux, as people would see themselves as computer literate.=20 On Tue, 2006-06-20 at 08:43 +0200, Dave Neary wrote: > Hi, >=20 > Richard Stallman wrote: > > In reality, we will likely hire someone who is already competent in= the > > use of free software - but I agree with Quim that this should not b= e a > > requirement (obviously (at least to me), *using* free software will= be > > part of the job, where possible). > >=20 > > I think the Foundation should absolutely insist on using only free > > software. That way it will lead by example. >=20 > As Jonathan pointed out, our bank has a website which does some rather > evil platform detection, and refuses to run on anything other than IE. > So we are obliged to have a Windows instance installed, or we can not > use this bank's online services. We have made our issue known, and are > investigating changing banks. >=20 > Cheers, > Dave. >=20 --=-PXVkvwvUKTNQvc8SbOVI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEl7VD62fLHU++kcURAhtHAJ9UHIjP9z0fmc8pWeouqiuiYqpLQQCgpRsS tMw7PLzygujdDmZirBXFPkc= =t2gV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-PXVkvwvUKTNQvc8SbOVI-- From rms@gnu.org Tue Jun 20 13:56:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 728673B0302 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:56:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01985-06 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:56:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EF1A3B01C9 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:56:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1FskSW-0002Fm-Nl; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:56:16 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Dave Neary In-reply-to: <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> (message from Dave Neary on Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:43:43 +0200) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> Message-Id: Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:56:16 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.562 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.038, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.562 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 17:56:47 -0000 As Jonathan pointed out, our bank has a website which does some rather evil platform detection, and refuses to run on anything other than IE. This is worse than I realized. The Foundation is not only using user-subjugating software, it is using a bank that pressures its customers to do so. That makes two reasons to stop. Running Internet Explorer on GNU/Linux using Wine, which someone suggested, is not a real solution because IE itself is proprietary software. That approach avoids Windows, but doesn't avoid IE. Until you find another bank, you could stop dealing with the bank on line, and do business with it the old-fashioned way, with paper, phone calls, and/or visits to the bank office. It may be inconvenient, but it freedom is worth a small sacrifice. However, another approach is worth thinking about. What is the obstacle to programming a free browser so that it pretends to be IE? That would be the really desirable solution. What bank is it? Maybe the FSF and the GNOME Foundation can organize a pressure campaign for the bank to change its policies. From jrb@redhat.com Tue Jun 20 14:14:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FD993B0302 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03318-07 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [66.187.233.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9EA73B002A for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5KIEXeM012200; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:33 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (devserv.devel.redhat.com [172.16.58.1]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5KIEXXl005041; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:33 -0400 Received: from dhcp83-106.boston.redhat.com (dhcp83-106.boston.redhat.com [172.16.83.106]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5KIEXLi014411; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Jonathan Blandford To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-TDVQMLZFU5CgYyjlCe+L" Organization: Red Hat, Inc. Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:43 -0400 Message-Id: <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.2 (2.6.2-1.fc5.5) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.585 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.585 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 18:14:51 -0000 --=-TDVQMLZFU5CgYyjlCe+L Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable *shrug* Online banking is a new feature for this bank. We told them we were planning on switching banks if they didn't support Firefox or other browsers, and they said that they would look into it. I wouldn't expect them to support it overnight, and given the expense of switching banks, I wouldn't want to switch immediately. I don't know what a 'reasonable time' is for this, but we are probably just approaching it. Additionally, if you recall, the original purpose of this thread was to help find an administrator for the GNOME Foundation. I would expect the new admin to switch banks if we can't use Firefox or epiphany, but we're not exactly operating on all cylinders right now. Thanks, -Jonathan --=-TDVQMLZFU5CgYyjlCe+L Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEmDsSEXFTqNjUZNwRAk3oAKCr9C48KXFinXyWgIoIWP4UHrpfLgCdFdAI cvXosbkKBwWsgF8uQHhkKDA= =puHs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-TDVQMLZFU5CgYyjlCe+L-- From rms@gnu.org Tue Jun 20 19:32:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 822E23B038F for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:32:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24251-01 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:32:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D1E83B03D8 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:32:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1FspiH-0005lF-Iv; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:32:53 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Jonathan Blandford In-reply-to: <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> (message from Jonathan Blandford on Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:43 -0400) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-Id: Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:32:53 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.564 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.036, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.564 X-Spam-Level: Cc: dneary@free.fr, foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 23:32:56 -0000 Online banking is a new feature for this bank. We told them we were planning on switching banks if they didn't support Firefox or other browsers, and they said that they would look into it. I wouldn't expect them to support it overnight, It would be counterproductive to hurry them to decide; and if they decide to switch, they need time to do the work. However, that doesn't mean the GNOME Foundation needs to use non-free software. Since on-line banking is a new feature for them, you can do without it while waiting. Accepting inconveniences rather than using non-free software is a great way to show by example that freedom is important. From ross@golder.org Tue Jun 20 21:29:15 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97CDF3B0357 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 21:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29296-09 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 21:29:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from black.golder.org (black.golder.org [81.6.249.35]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D70683B043E for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 21:29:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by black.golder.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5740940DD; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:29:12 +0100 (BST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at golder.org Received: from black.golder.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (black.golder.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nWXZNpqFnBff; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:29:09 +0100 (BST) Received: from red (unknown [125.24.70.244]) by black.golder.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6E9A40AB; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:29:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Ross Golder To: Jonathan Blandford In-Reply-To: <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:28:24 +0700 Message-Id: <1150853304.5559.28.camel@red> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.536 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.063, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.536 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , mark@galassi.org, rms@gnu.org, foundation-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 01:29:15 -0000 On Tue, 2006-06-20 at 14:14 -0400, Jonathan Blandford wrote: > *shrug* > > Online banking is a new feature for this bank. We told them we were > planning on switching banks if they didn't support Firefox or other > browsers, and they said that they would look into it. I wouldn't expect > them to support it overnight, and given the expense of switching banks, > I wouldn't want to switch immediately. It shouldn't be hard to find a bank that does support our needs, open an account with them, transfer the money from the old account, close the old account, update some docs/notes. I can't see it costing more than a few hours and maybe a few dollars. A reasonably motivated administrator should have that done in a day or two, I'd have thought, then they won't have to sit around waiting for our bank to fix their systems. I'm curious as to why the account was opened with the current bank in the first place, without a basic check that their on-line facilities were suitable. It seems a bit odd. I'm not looking to assign blame to anyone, just to make sure it's a mistake learned from and something similar won't happen again at the foundation's cost. I'm also curious about who the current bank is :) > Additionally, if you recall, the original purpose of this thread was to > help find an administrator for the GNOME Foundation. I would expect the > new admin to switch banks if we can't use Firefox or epiphany, but we're > not exactly operating on all cylinders right now. > A good first job for them then. Also, would it be possible for them to write a brief monthly report to the foundation-list about their month's activities and expenses etc. It might help make things a little more transparent/accountable. -- Ross From mark@galassi.org Sat Jun 17 19:01:04 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F6E53B0080; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:01:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13804-04; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:01:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agora.rdrop.com (agora.rdrop.com [199.26.172.34]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A04713B00B2; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:01:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (67-42-116-199.albq.qwest.net [67.42.116.199]) (authenticated bits=0) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id k5HMCnLH009742 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:12:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@galassi.org) To: Jonathan Blandford Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578597.2841.94.camel@peach> From: Mark Galassi Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 16:12:38 -0600 In-Reply-To: <1150578597.2841.94.camel@peach> (Jonathan Blandford's message of "Sat, 17 Jun 2006 17:09:57 -0400") Message-ID: <87k67fh1nt.fsf@galassi.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (agora.rdrop.com [199.26.172.34]); Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:12:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.465 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.465 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:19:47 -0400 Cc: foundation-announce@gnome.org, foundation-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:01:04 -0000 >> I hope that it will be a firm requirement that only free s/w be >> used to run the Foundation's administration. Jonathan> Right now, we use free tools to run almost all the Jonathan> foundation's books. [...] I'm glad to hear this. I'm always embarassed when I see managers using Windows and PowerPoint to present the advantages of "open source". Although I guess their sense of self-irony should be applauded. From arieltenor@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 15:09:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 068543B01C9 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:09:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07446-06 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:09:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.169]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BE073B01AB for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:09:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id o2so3159054uge for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.58.11 with SMTP id g11mr2888428hua; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.70.5 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:09:48 -0500 From: "Ariel Rios" To: rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.34 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.260, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.34 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:19:47 -0400 Cc: Dave Neary , foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:09:54 -0000 > However, another approach is worth thinking about. What is the > obstacle to programming a free browser so that it pretends to be IE? > That would be the really desirable solution. I faced a similar issue with a Mexican bank that only supported Explorer. I downloaded the great User Agent Switcher extension for Firefox so I can use the site. Maybe that can also help for this specific bank. ariel From dneary@free.fr Wed Jun 21 02:20:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE14A3B0ACC for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:20:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12587-05 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:20:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2-g19.free.fr (smtp2-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.28]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A34173B07CA for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:20:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp2-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8471730DA; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:20:13 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4498E519.1090207@free.fr> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:20:09 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ross Golder Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1150853304.5559.28.camel@red> In-Reply-To: <1150853304.5559.28.camel@red> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org, Jonathan Blandford , rms@gnu.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 06:20:21 -0000 Hi, Ross Golder wrote: > It shouldn't be hard to find a bank that does support our needs, open an > account with them, transfer the money from the old account, close the > old account, update some docs/notes. I can't see it costing more than a > few hours and maybe a few dollars. A reasonably motivated administrator > should have that done in a day or two, I'd have thought, then they won't > have to sit around waiting for our bank to fix their systems. Update our records in various invoicing systems, go through paypal confirmation with the new account, get a credit card set up, change the credit card number with various suppliers, ... Changing banks, as anyone who has done so can tell you, is a pain - you end up finding out months afterwards that people you hadn't thought of still have your old bank details for electronic payments. > I'm also curious > about who the current bank is :) It's no secret - it's Silicon Valley Bank. I have no idea how or why they were chosen. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Wed Jun 21 03:32:26 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C367B3B073E for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 03:32:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17098-07 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 03:32:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 265943B0302 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 03:32:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 32359 invoked by uid 0); 21 Jun 2006 07:32:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.103]) (213.96.45.171) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 07:32:23 +0000 Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Quim Gil To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-9NcbC9D9ObPWb6tVSAvd" Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:17:02 +0200 Message-Id: <1150849022.5111.76.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.092 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.320, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_06_12=0.827] X-Spam-Score: -2.092 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 07:32:27 -0000 --=-9NcbC9D9ObPWb6tVSAvd Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El dt 20 de 06 del 2006 a les 13:56 -0400, en/na Richard Stallman va escriure: > Until you find another bank, you could stop dealing with the bank on > line, and do business with it the old-fashioned way, with paper, phone > calls, and/or visits to the bank office. It may be inconvenient, but > it freedom is worth a small sacrifice. Just to note that things are more complicated than this, applying your recommendation now would put GUADEC 2006 at risk. --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-9NcbC9D9ObPWb6tVSAvd Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEmI/+BEzHYk6x634RAli9AJ0Yl9ujZ51x8OevVFK6Od/EFrrVJgCgoRr9 /W9wXSuuUwhdaf48E+BWTbg= =2S6J -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-9NcbC9D9ObPWb6tVSAvd-- From rms@gnu.org Wed Jun 21 13:03:43 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9037F3B00AE for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:03:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23401-05 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:03:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EDA03B02D1 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:03:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1Ft67A-0003cy-2e; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:03:40 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Quim Gil In-reply-to: <1150849022.5111.76.camel@localhost> (message from Quim Gil on Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:17:02 +0200) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> <1150849022.5111.76.camel@localhost> Message-Id: Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:03:40 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.566 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.034, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.566 X-Spam-Level: Cc: dneary@free.fr, foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:03:43 -0000 Just to note that things are more complicated than this, applying your recommendation now would put GUADEC 2006 at risk. GUADEC will be finished a week from now; after a few more weeks go by, it surely won't be hard to use pen and paper for the remaining bills. From murrayc@murrayc.com Thu Jun 22 06:07:43 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E8513B035E for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 06:07:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14936-06 for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 06:07:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com (webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com [66.33.201.159]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC4DB3B0254 for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 06:07:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.murrayc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E839A2C203 for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 03:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 194.138.18.132 (proxying for unknown) (SquirrelMail authenticated user murrayc@murrayc.com) by webmail.murrayc.com with HTTP; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 12:07:39 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <16193.194.138.18.132.1150970859.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 12:07:39 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Code Of Conduct draft #2 From: "Murray Cumming" To: foundation-list@gnome.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.56 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.039, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.56 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 10:07:43 -0000 Here's my latest draft of the Code Of Conduct, or whatever we end up calling it: http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct I think the main content is done. More text would make the whole thing less ineresting. But I'm having particular difficulty writing the summary. Ideally it should be short, snappy, and inspirational. Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From vuntz@gnome.org Thu Jun 22 11:20:59 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7440A3B0689; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 11:20:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05338-02; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 11:20:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fennas.vuntz.net (fennas.vuntz.net [82.228.182.88]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C25A13B0495; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 11:20:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by fennas.vuntz.net (Postfix, from userid 33) id 6E19D112693; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 17:20:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 129.88.38.77 (SquirrelMail authenticated user vuntz) by vuntz.net with HTTP; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 17:20:56 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <50469.129.88.38.77.1150989656.squirrel@vuntz.net> Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 17:20:56 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Intel joins the GNOME Foundation's Advisory Board From: "Vincent Untz" To: foundation-announce@gnome.org, foundation-list@gnome.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.561 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.038, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.561 X-Spam-Level: Cc: advisory-board@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 15:20:59 -0000 The GNOME Foundation is welcoming Intel as an Advisory Board member. This is part of Intel's increasing commitment to GNOME and to the free software desktop. We are delighted to have Intel on board: it will help us continue our bet of combining the passion of the GNOME community with the need for quality, stability and long term plans of big players who are increasingly interested and involved in free software development. With Intel joining, the Advisory Board member now consists of twelve established industry companies and projects. More informations on the Foundation's Advisory Board is available at: http://foundation.gnome.org/about/ Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. From waldo.bastian@intel.com Thu Jun 22 13:26:06 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABAE43B0785; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 13:26:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13095-04; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 13:26:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fmsmga101-1.fm.intel.com (mga01.intel.com [192.55.52.88]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F9093B0731; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 13:26:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fmsmga001.fm.intel.com ([10.253.24.23]) by fmsmga101-1.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 22 Jun 2006 10:25:59 -0700 Received: from orsmsx335.jf.intel.com (HELO orsmsx335.amr.corp.intel.com) ([10.22.226.40]) by fmsmga001.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 22 Jun 2006 10:23:13 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.06,166,1149490800"; d="scan'208"; a="56897970:sNHT90202169617" Received: from orsmsx409.amr.corp.intel.com ([192.168.65.58]) by orsmsx335.amr.corp.intel.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 22 Jun 2006 10:23:12 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Intel joins the GNOME Foundation's Advisory Board Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 10:23:11 -0700 Message-ID: <8AEB79DC01BE994D8DE3FD02FA5B475B03DFAAAE@orsmsx409> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Intel joins the GNOME Foundation's Advisory Board thread-index: AcaWD46K6AKg5uJfSieruaiGax8vKQAAhTNA From: "Bastian, Waldo" To: "Vincent Untz" , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Jun 2006 17:23:12.0881 (UTC) FILETIME=[8A39EE10:01C69620] X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.56 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.039, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.56 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 15:54:11 -0400 Cc: advisory-board@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 17:26:07 -0000 >The GNOME Foundation is welcoming Intel as an Advisory Board member. >This is part of Intel's increasing commitment to GNOME and to the >free software desktop. > >We are delighted to have Intel on board: it will help us continue our >bet of combining the passion of the GNOME community with the need for >quality, stability and long term plans of big players who are >increasingly interested and involved in free software development. > >With Intel joining, the Advisory Board member now consists of twelve >established industry companies and projects. More informations on the >Foundation's Advisory Board is available at: > > http://foundation.gnome.org/about/ > > >Vincent Thanks Vincent, It has been a pleasure working with the GNOME community as part of Intel's OSDL and LSB efforts, and I hope that being on the GNOME Advisory Board will create an even more productive working relationship between us and the GNOME community. As you have observed, coming from a KDE background, it has at times been a challenge for me to zero in on the right people in the GNOME community to engage on matters of mutual interest. Our participation in the Advisory Board should make that process far easier. Through OSDL and LSB, bridging the gaps between industry leading Linux desktop environments for the benefit of users and application developers has been an important goal for us. We very much appreciate the opportunity work more closely with the GNOME community to realize that goal. I look forward to meeting with all of you next week at GUADEC. Waldo Bastian Linux Client Architect - Client Linux Foundation Technology Channel Platform Solutions Group Intel Corporation - http://www.intel.com/go/linux OSDL DTL Tech Board Chairman From gpoo@ubiobio.cl Tue Jun 27 13:52:11 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7D4C3B0083 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:52:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11203-01 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:52:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay.ubiobio.cl (atlas.dci.ubiobio.cl [146.83.195.21]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C63223B0168 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:51:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by forward.ubiobio.cl (Postfix) with ESMTP id D23DF4002A7 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:51:12 -0400 (CLT) Received: from pegasus.dci.ubiobio.cl ([146.83.195.11]) by localhost (antivirus.dci.ubiobio.cl [146.83.195.21]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04061-75 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:51:12 -0400 (CLT) Received: from mimos.local (proxlinux.epsevg.upc.es [147.83.156.10]) by pegasus.dci.ubiobio.cl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 503E9280035D for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:51:11 -0400 (CLT) Subject: Ask for schedule board's meetings From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Germ=E1n_Po=F3_Caama=F1o?= To: foundation-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:51:07 -0400 Message-Id: <1151430667.15979.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at ubiobio.cl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.464 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.464 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:52:12 -0000 After the GNOME Foundation AGM I got the feeling (probably I not the only one) that there is a communication problem about what they are doing and where they need helps from the members. Don't forget the Foundation are we all of us. As a member is our obligation to ask for information, for instance, ask for the minutes of the board's meetings. But, how to ask if we don't know when the meetings happen. We only know it happen every two week, but not exactly or if they didn't take place. So, I ask to the board to publish the schedule of the meetings for this year. I think it is a easy task for the board that can help us to control and ask for information and try to give to them a hand in any task they need. Best regards, -- Germán Poó-Caamaño http://www.ubiobio.cl/~gpoo/ Concepción - Chile From the prior art department: compare with RFC 2026. I think the time for review is too short. It might be OK for people who are working full time on Gnome, but it won't be enough for people who have another job. It's possible that somebody who isn't directly involved in Gnome would want to review the proposal (because somebody who is involved asked him/her to, for example), but it might be impossible on such schedule. Furteher, if the RFP author thinks the reviewing period should be longer, then it should be longer. So I propose something like "the reviewing period will be determined by the RFP owner, but it shuld not be shorter than two weeks." That's for "fast-track approval, if no controversy" section. Other time constraints should also be at least two weeks. I don't see why several persons couldn't author an RFP. I don't know if that should be explicitely written. An objection to "A small group of relevant maintainers finalizes the RFP." It should be "A small group of interested parties." One doesn't have to be Gnome module maintainer in order to posess usefull technical knowledge about the problem in question. I don't particularly like the voting stuff. The general tone implies that conflicts are expected and that consensus will be an exception. But if you want to go with rules like that, then there should be no gray areas. For example, the "List of responsible maintainers" section ends with: "The board will resolve all disputes regarding the list of responsible maintainers." How is the board going to do that? On what schedule? The results of board decision will obviously be public. But is the board required to write a public explanation? And why voting in the first place? Shouldn't the board be able to reach a consensus on this issue? > Two example topics we might use for a test run of the procedure are > this -config issue, and the sound server/API issue. Hm. How about testing it on the "GNOME Enhancement Procedure" proposal itself? -- .-. .-. Are you crying? No, I'm bleeding. (_ \ / _) | dave@arsdigita.com | From gnome-foundation-list@m.gmane.org Thu Jun 1 05:42:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08DFB3B0CE0 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 05:42:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23565-02 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 05:42:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 821AE3B0D78 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 05:20:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from root by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1FljLW-0003fl-Ej for foundation-list@gnome.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:20:02 +0200 Received: from 213.91.219.2 ([213.91.219.2]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:20:02 +0200 Received: from yavor by 213.91.219.2 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:20:02 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: foundation-list@gnome.org From: Yavor Doganov Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:58:47 +0300 Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440605300709u669c5da2sa352f1f5fedf2b06@mail.gmail.com> <14439.194.138.18.131.1149000460.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060530151633.GB28961@bridgewayconsulting.com.au> <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> <177e83dd0605301003h77a01816hed9a3a1afb849709@mail.gmail.com> <447E0013.9030307@gnome.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.91.219.2 User-Agent: Pan/0.14.2.91 (As She Crawled Across the Table (Debian GNU/Linux)) X-What_are_we_fighting_for: NO SOFTWARE PATENTS! NO BANANA REPUBLIC! Sender: news X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.542 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.441, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=1.5, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.542 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 09:42:40 -0000 On Wed, 31 May 2006 16:44:03 -0400, Tristan Van Berkom wrote: > GNOME is Free Software and part of the GNU project [...] > If the above statement is indeed true, I wonder where any misrepresentations > are, if they can be rectified and what can be done in general to improve > the overall interpretation of what the GNOME project is. If you read Planet GNOME and some of the mailing lists, you'll notice that many developers use the term "Open Source" and call the operating system "Linux", instead of GNU or GNU/Linux. Some of them were even excited when a popular non-free software was relicensed recently, allowing easier installation by the users, but still remaining non-free. If the core developers and project participants do not value and stand firm behind the ideals of the GNU Project and the Free Software Movement, you cannot expect that these ideals will touch the hearts of other people, particularly the "minority" groups in question. -- JID: doganov@jabber.minus273.org From jdub@waugh.id.au Thu Jun 1 06:25:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A33F3B0141 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:25:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26622-08 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:25:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF6F73B008B for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:25:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (unknown [203.217.18.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC7463CB6A for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 20:24:59 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 966C440B4; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 20:01:27 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 20:01:27 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060601100126.GA5214@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440605300709u669c5da2sa352f1f5fedf2b06@mail.gmail.com> <14439.194.138.18.131.1149000460.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060530151633.GB28961@bridgewayconsulting.com.au> <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> <177e83dd0605301003h77a01816hed9a3a1afb849709@mail.gmail.com> <447E0013.9030307@gnome.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 Reply-By: Sun Jun 4 19:54:21 EST 2006 X-Uptime: 19:54:21 up 51 min, 6 users, load average: 0.27, 0.40, 0.40 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 10:25:03 -0000 > If you read Planet GNOME and some of the mailing lists, you'll notice that > many developers use the term "Open Source" and call the operating system > "Linux", instead of GNU or GNU/Linux. Some of them were even excited when > a popular non-free software was relicensed recently, allowing easier > installation by the users, but still remaining non-free. > > If the core developers and project participants do not value and stand > firm behind the ideals of the GNU Project and the Free Software Movement, > you cannot expect that these ideals will touch the hearts of other people, > particularly the "minority" groups in question. Oh man, come on, this is silly behaviour. GNOME developers are *passionate* about Free Software, fiercely so. We're here to make sure that Free Software gets into the hands of normal users, not just geeks. However, we *do not* have our minds held hostage by dogma, and dogma doesn't drive freedom for *anyone*. We're all consenting adults, we can make our own decisions about what's good and what's not - but don't think for a minute that GNOME, as an organisation and social group is not pursuing a fierce Free Software agenda. - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2007: Sydney, Australia http://lca2007.linux.org.au/ "(Hint: IRC clients don't usually do DVD and VCD playback)." - Bastien Nocera From anne@oestergaard.nu Thu Jun 1 07:24:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D0113B00EE for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 07:24:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30376-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 07:23:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero0.cybercity.dk (cicero0.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.52]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D50F63B0119 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 07:23:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero0.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68F86678C70 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 13:23:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 164FB74FA04 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 13:23:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 22398 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2006 11:23:54 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 1 Jun 2006 11:23:54 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Bill Haneman In-Reply-To: <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149065540.5127.117.camel@localhost> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:23:54 +0200 Message-Id: <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.533 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.066, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.533 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:24:00 -0000 ons, 31 05 2006 kl. 20:38 +0100, skrev Bill Haneman: > On Wed, 2006-05-31 at 19:25, Tristan Van Berkom wrote: > > > Nobody will be driven away by that, people might be driven away by > > us stating that "you now are part of a community with a code of conduct". Actually if persons are driven away by not being able to accept rules of good conduct or The GNOME Ethics as we might prefer to call them then so be it. IMHO. > I don't agree. Every community has a code of conduct, implied or > explicit, IMO. Anyhow, there's no real enforcement mechanism, so I > don't see this as a realistic concern. > > ANY change or statement with a "policy" feel carries the risk of > alienating *somebody*, but that doesn't mean that embracing anarchy is > better. I have personally had the feeling over the past couple of years that the general atmosphere in the GNOME community has hardened. I joined the community in 2001 when I meet you all at GUADEC in Copenhagen. My reason for doing so was that it was the kindest most helpful group of people (although mostly white western males) that I had met in FLOSS. I think that being inventive is not equal to being anarchistic. Anarchistic is not a virtue in my book. Besides I find that it is not clever not to be able to accept the normal way of defining a well functioning democracy for all. Social rules and ethics will definitely be a competition parameter also for peoples personal choice of software now and in the future. > As an aside, I think the gender issue is important, and probably does > reflect some "cultural" issues within our community (GNOME and the FOSS > community in general). Members of a community rarely understand the > aspects of their culture that cause others to be alienated or > disinterested, even if they understand why they themselves feel included > and motivated. I fully agree with Bill and others here and I think we have to establish a gender action plan within GNOME, Ubuntu etc. We have got the opportunity to start this good trend! I do not say this to start a new long debat in this tread. But it has become obvious that the 1% participation of women in FLOSS is embarrassing and we need to have a look at why this is the case and make some cultural changes. I know that the Computer Science Department at the University of Gothenburg in Sweden has a gender action plan: http://www.informatik.gu.se/dokument/dokument.xsp?group=jamstalldhet&menu=org I think that many other universities and even GNOME and Ubuntu could get a lot of inspiration here. (Provided it gets translated from Swedish into a language you understand.) One of the purposes is to get more women in to research and teaching. Changing the mono culture is a vital goal. But to summon up what has happened in this debate: Most of the persons who has expressed themselves in this tread are positive to Murrays suggestion. So I think we should go for it. We might call it GNOME Ethics if "rules" has a disturbing ring to it. Anne From murrayc@murrayc.com Thu Jun 1 08:03:32 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1112C3B0D51 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:03:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00538-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:03:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com (webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com [66.33.201.159]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3998D3B0D3C for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:02:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.murrayc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D998A2CDA7; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 04:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 194.138.18.131 (proxying for unknown) (SquirrelMail authenticated user murrayc@murrayc.com) by webmail.murrayc.com with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 13:56:01 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> In-Reply-To: <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149065540.5127.117.camel@localhost> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 13:56:01 +0200 (CEST) From: "Murray Cumming" To: Anne =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.556 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.043, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.556 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 12:03:32 -0000 Anne wrote: [snip] > I do not say this to start a new long debat in this tread. But it has > become obvious that the 1% participation of women in FLOSS is > embarrassing and we need to have a look at why this is the case and make > some cultural changes. > > I know that the Computer Science Department at the University of > Gothenburg in Sweden has a gender action plan: > http://www.informatik.gu.se/dokument/dokument.xsp?group=jamstalldhet&menu=org > > I think that many other universities and even GNOME and Ubuntu could get > a lot of inspiration here. (Provided it gets translated from Swedish > into a language you understand.) [snip] Realistically, this plans needs to be written by you. Others will help you with it, but you need to create it and drive it. As a start, I think we have some definite things to try, based on the Flosspolls report: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-women-list/2006-May/msg00001.html At the least, it would be great to read the policies or plans that other science/technical organisations have created, particularly if they have proven successful already. For instance, a list of web addresses, or summaries. In English. You seem like the most well-informed person to do this. Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From luis.villa@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 08:13:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15D1F3B0132 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:13:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01060-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:13:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.200]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 043DA3B012D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:13:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so231597wxd for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 05:13:23 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=M7bRKyNesxOOt+gZaYV1MUy25dv6JMJkayJ3gFzHzPJvfGr3qCJftkHHnjf3gi9gUXLf0cU44gY2K3koUsPKQanX3t6HgTiUZez4vJLgj1VLW5Fh47YL+5aBb+rn/f63MCOnH2lfFwkirZJpcROmSo+ATikyCcARXoGuw4jXOAk= Received: by 10.70.69.8 with SMTP id r8mr613225wxa; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 05:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.2 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 05:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:13:23 -0400 From: "Luis Villa" To: "Murray Cumming" In-Reply-To: <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 12:13:27 -0000 On 6/1/06, Murray Cumming wrote: > Anne wrote: > [snip] > > I do not say this to start a new long debat in this tread. But it has > > become obvious that the 1% participation of women in FLOSS is > > embarrassing and we need to have a look at why this is the case and make > > some cultural changes. > > > > I know that the Computer Science Department at the University of > > Gothenburg in Sweden has a gender action plan: > > http://www.informatik.gu.se/dokument/dokument.xsp?group=jamstalldhet&menu=org > > > > I think that many other universities and even GNOME and Ubuntu could get > > a lot of inspiration here. (Provided it gets translated from Swedish > > into a language you understand.) > [snip] > > Realistically, this plans needs to be written by you. Others will help you > with it, but you need to create it and drive it. Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by someone with such experience. Luis From murrayc@murrayc.com Thu Jun 1 08:39:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4C7A3B0125 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:39:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02694-03 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:39:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com (webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com [66.33.201.159]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D48423B00FF for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:39:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.murrayc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1850D2D23D; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 05:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 194.138.18.131 (proxying for unknown) (SquirrelMail authenticated user murrayc@murrayc.com) by webmail.murrayc.com with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:33:29 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:33:29 +0200 (CEST) From: "Murray Cumming" To: "Luis Villa" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.557 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.042, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.557 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , Murray Cumming , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 12:39:50 -0000 > On 6/1/06, Murray Cumming wrote: >> Anne wrote: >> [snip] >> > I do not say this to start a new long debat in this tread. But it has >> > become obvious that the 1% participation of women in FLOSS is >> > embarrassing and we need to have a look at why this is the case and >> make >> > some cultural changes. >> > >> > I know that the Computer Science Department at the University of >> > Gothenburg in Sweden has a gender action plan: >> > http://www.informatik.gu.se/dokument/dokument.xsp?group=jamstalldhet&menu=org >> > >> > I think that many other universities and even GNOME and Ubuntu could >> get >> > a lot of inspiration here. (Provided it gets translated from Swedish >> > into a language you understand.) >> [snip] >> >> Realistically, this plans needs to be written by you. Others will help >> you >> with it, but you need to create it and drive it. > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > someone with such experience. Hmm, how about people working together? It just seems that the person who most most obviously wants this should be the person trying to make it happen. Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Thu Jun 1 08:50:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E761A3B00AB for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:50:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03032-07 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:50:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E8C033B0090 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:50:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from turing.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.16] helo=turing.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 1 Jun 2006 13:50:48 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 13:50:48 +0100 (IST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440605300709u669c5da2sa352f1f5fedf2b06@mail.gmail.com> <14439.194.138.18.131.1149000460.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060530151633.GB28961@bridgewayconsulting.com.au> <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> <177e83dd0605301003h77a01816hed9a3a1afb849709@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 12:50:52 -0000 On Wed, 31 May 2006, Richard Stallman wrote: > Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 15:13:33 -0400 > From: Richard Stallman > To: zuh@iki.fi > Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org > Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct > > So I would definitely agree that given an idea of contributing (code), > women will easily ask who will pay for it where men might not. Maybe > they consider open source more as "working" than as a hobby or a way > social networking or even as a way to educate oneself. > > Perhaps this is a consequence of presenting GNOME as an "open source" > activity. That term excludes the idealism of free software, and > invites people to look at the matter in purely practical terms -- > which is what these women then do. > > Perhaps they would understand better why it's worth spending time > unpaid on our campaign if you tell them that this is the Free Software > Movement, and that the goal of our campaign is freedom for us and for > everyone. If greater clarity and emphasis on freedom is the goal why not say _Freedom Software_ and avoid the abiguity which in part lead other to come up with different terminology? -- Alan From dneary@free.fr Thu Jun 1 09:03:11 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 571E73B01BA for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:03:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04032-05 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:03:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp12.wanadoo.fr (smtp12.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.20]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD9103B01B4 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:03:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf1202.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 05B421C000A2; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:03:06 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060601130307236.05B421C000A2@mwinf1202.orange.fr Message-ID: <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:03:04 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (Windows/20060308) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Luis Villa References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:03:11 -0000 Hi, Luis Villa wrote: > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > someone with such experience. That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a developer from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women involved in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who's better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From luis.villa@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 09:05:29 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB9D83B0213 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:05:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04316-06 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:05:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.198]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 631D63B01F3 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:05:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so240207wxd for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:05:26 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=BYK8lFiLJO2Ne9nZnBwCpaSMHLj/eF+Yve99+fxle95gejqE1Awkf+irqEgrFDLJVaJXbiziS8zWvNXLmkJGfP4p3kJQf/tOBDd7r6d+KgMAdM+DqPT7lTQAgS1L4cgq4N9+8G0/kBVIC9CUKcncJ4u+u6lMyAlrSBwHZV3EH34= Received: by 10.70.6.1 with SMTP id 1mr693092wxf; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:05:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.2 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:05:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:05:26 -0400 From: "Luis Villa" To: "Dave Neary" In-Reply-To: <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:05:30 -0000 On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: > > Hi, > > Luis Villa wrote: > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > > someone with such experience. > > That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a developer > from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women involved > in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct > discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who's > better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? A female geek? Luis From jdub@waugh.id.au Thu Jun 1 09:08:05 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2BE63B0C0E for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:08:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04423-09 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:08:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1F8C3B0134 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:08:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (unknown [203.217.18.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7BA53CDC4 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 23:07:59 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0CBAD40B4; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 23:07:48 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 23:07:48 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060601130748.GE5203@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440605300709u669c5da2sa352f1f5fedf2b06@mail.gmail.com> <14439.194.138.18.131.1149000460.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060530151633.GB28961@bridgewayconsulting.com.au> <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> <177e83dd0605301003h77a01816hed9a3a1afb849709@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: Reply-By: Sun Jun 4 23:06:25 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 23:06:25 up 2:59, 5 users, load average: 3.75, 2.14, 1.64 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:08:05 -0000 > If greater clarity and emphasis on freedom is the goal why not say > _Freedom Software_ and avoid the abiguity which in part lead other to come > up with different terminology? This is not a discussion for this list - please take this off-list if you wish to pursue it. Thanks, - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ From baris@teamforce.name.tr Thu Jun 1 09:27:37 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DD163B016D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:27:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05899-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:27:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nerd.com.tr (nerd.com.tr [69.60.117.115]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC3303B0077 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:27:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nerd.com.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1406B784E6A; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:31:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nerd.com.tr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (nerd.com.tr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15072-01; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:30:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (unknown [81.213.157.51]) by nerd.com.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94F7C784E68; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:30:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Baris Cicek To: Luis Villa In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-nF1xqzLT528vovi3vaHu" Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 16:27:19 +0300 Message-Id: <1149168439.2507.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 (2.6.0-1) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at nerd.com.tr X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.227 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.372, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.227 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:27:37 -0000 --=-nF1xqzLT528vovi3vaHu Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Actually, it should be someone who is able to detect possible obstacles that put Asians or Women out of GNOME (or in general Free Software). I doubt that anyone have any emprical study about that. But is it harsh and rude behavior of developers or the community? Or technical limits? Or even communication problems? (ie. English knowledge or something).=20 First thing is to come up with a reasonable problems that new comers would come across. And later people should follow a pathway to get rid of these obstacles.=20 Actually Code of Conduct may only be successful for new comers if we detect those problems correctly.=20 For that reason, ideas of the fresh community members is more important. If you're experienced then either you did not have any problem or you might even forgot those problems you'd encountered in past. Though, you might still remember old days, but chances are low.=20 IMHO, Code Of Conduct (or GNOME Ethics) should be written for that very reason. Experienced members of the community might and would forget the problems for newcomers. Something should remind them. But still first thing to do is to detect obstacles first. Else, outcome of this work, won't get further than saying "Be nice to each other" with rhetoric.=20 On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 09:05 -0400, Luis Villa wrote: > On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > Luis Villa wrote: > > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > > > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > > > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > > > someone with such experience. > > > > That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a developer > > from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women involve= d > > in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct > > discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who'= s > > better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? >=20 > A female geek? >=20 > Luis > _______________________________________________ > foundation-list mailing list > foundation-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list --=-nF1xqzLT528vovi3vaHu Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEfus362fLHU++kcURAlt/AKDgbHg3XB0HAS5zZDe4MiJSIFoVsACfR8wZ oEU7oK/r87izEkFQB/pm6dU= =aEcr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-nF1xqzLT528vovi3vaHu-- From anne@oestergaard.nu Thu Jun 1 09:32:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A2083B0D3A for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:32:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06362-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:32:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero0.cybercity.dk (cicero0.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.52]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 928443B0C49 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:32:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero0.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 317E1679467 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:32:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id CDC4774FAF2 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:32:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 23827 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2006 13:32:44 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 1 Jun 2006 13:32:44 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Luis Villa In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:32:43 +0200 Message-Id: <1149168764.6894.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.533 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.066, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.533 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:32:56 -0000 tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 09:05 -0400, skrev Luis Villa: > On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > Luis Villa wrote: > > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > > > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > > > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > > > someone with such experience. > > > > That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a developer > > from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women involved > > in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct > > discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who's > > better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? > > A female geek? I would like to hear your definition of a geek, please. Anne From dneary@free.fr Thu Jun 1 09:39:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC0FF3B0D35 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:39:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06719-08 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:39:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.wanadoo.fr (smtp2.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.29]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E48C3B0C49 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:39:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf0203.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 638591C001F4; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:39:31 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060601133931407.638591C001F4@mwinf0203.orange.fr Message-ID: <447EEE11.4000500@free.fr> Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:39:29 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (Windows/20060308) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Anne_=D8stergaard?= References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> <1149168764.6894.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <1149168764.6894.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:39:35 -0000 Anne Østergaard wrote: > tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 09:05 -0400, skrev Luis Villa: >> On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: >>> Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who's >>> better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? >> A female geek? > > I would like to hear your definition of a geek, please. >From my point of view, it's someone who's passionate about software (or more generally, about computers). The GNOME project needs people who are passionate about the freedom of free software who aren't *necessarily* passionate about software, but even then, for tasks other than being a developer, a passion in free software is probably a prerequisite. Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From anne@oestergaard.nu Thu Jun 1 09:39:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 750413B0D40 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:39:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06806-04 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:39:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67D673B0D2E for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:39:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user5.cybercity.dk (user5.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.51]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15A5F2455B0 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:39:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user5.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 9D19C3A1BDE for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:39:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 23975 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2006 13:39:32 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 1 Jun 2006 13:39:32 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Baris Cicek In-Reply-To: <1149168439.2507.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> <1149168439.2507.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:39:31 +0200 Message-Id: <1149169171.6894.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.534 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.065, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.534 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Dave Neary , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:39:36 -0000 tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 16:27 +0300, skrev Baris Cicek: > Actually, it should be someone who is able to detect possible obstacles > that put Asians or Women out of GNOME (or in general Free Software). I > doubt that anyone have any emprical study about that. But is it harsh > and rude behavior of developers or the community? Or technical limits? > Or even communication problems? (ie. English knowledge or something). > > First thing is to come up with a reasonable problems that new comers > would come across. And later people should follow a pathway to get rid > of these obstacles. > > Actually Code of Conduct may only be successful for new comers if we > detect those problems correctly. > > For that reason, ideas of the fresh community members is more important. > If you're experienced then either you did not have any problem or you > might even forgot those problems you'd encountered in past. Though, you > might still remember old days, but chances are low. > > IMHO, Code Of Conduct (or GNOME Ethics) should be written for that very > reason. Experienced members of the community might and would forget the > problems for newcomers. Something should remind them. > > But still first thing to do is to detect obstacles first. Else, outcome > of this work, won't get further than saying "Be nice to each other" with > rhetoric. I agree. A question is when do you feel you belong to the GNOME community? When there is a critical mass that is just like you and when you feel comfortable that a larger group share your way of thinking and ways of communicating? Anne > > > On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 09:05 -0400, Luis Villa wrote: > > On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Luis Villa wrote: > > > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > > > > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > > > > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > > > > someone with such experience. > > > > > > That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a developer > > > from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women involved > > > in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct > > > discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who's > > > better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? > > > > A female geek? > > > > Luis > > _______________________________________________ > > foundation-list mailing list > > foundation-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list > _______________________________________________ > foundation-list mailing list > foundation-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list From luis.villa@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 09:43:23 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF5F03B0173 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:43:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07305-02 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:43:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.196]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55A5F3B016F for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:43:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so246552wxd for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:43:17 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=UPMgxGsuCGu6P9N+IaztKhzWZWnUDGjuB1eu40MxK1NuAYJkPdnf/o0M+7UTRbphbBCZHji5W4uRedT5Trtz+xk2RNZjiehC/nOopS/OtST53stjQnuc+7XXuh50Weobl+tQK3djpBRujGIbYjkUE2DLA14rWpAxVg7jLqLYQt4= Received: by 10.70.40.12 with SMTP id n12mr737638wxn; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.2 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2cb10c440606010643x1dfe5e48mbcf68a2fd0352fae@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:43:16 -0400 From: "Luis Villa" To: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Anne_=D8stergaard?=" In-Reply-To: <1149168764.6894.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> <1149168764.6894.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:43:23 -0000 On 6/1/06, Anne =D8stergaard wrote: > tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 09:05 -0400, skrev Luis Villa: > > On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Luis Villa wrote: > > > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > > > > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer= *- > > > > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > > > > someone with such experience. > > > > > > That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a develop= er > > > from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women invol= ved > > > in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct > > > discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so wh= o's > > > better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-gee= k? > > > > A female geek? > > I would like to hear your definition of a geek, please. For the purposes of this discussion, 'someone actively involved in the development of our software through the traditional means used by our community'. This need not be direct software development (as everyone knows I do very little of that) but it does mean involvement in creating the product that we ship, and it does mean at least some participation in the mainstream of the community- desktop-devel-list, #gnome-hackers, etc. Luis From luis.villa@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 09:44:24 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5D663B016F for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:44:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07262-08 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:44:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.204]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 506EE3B0C49 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:44:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so246728wxd for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:44:21 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=GpGdnRDgVSS/SWZsX5U/sj0RXmGEYdgzgsLRzSM+2rgcLIebl2EPo+MS4FanUY2lt0S3HLELDWKLXUSbRRWSN6qQyccniZtM40z1wcvwVutMlhGHZPV/Mzbh3m8X54uRlE259+XeTT7pIYL1LFWvkKL6SI6TjBXi5UKvO5I6d5s= Received: by 10.70.6.1 with SMTP id 1mr746819wxf; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:44:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.2 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:44:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2cb10c440606010644s5af56377jb43c1e88b33192b2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:44:21 -0400 From: "Luis Villa" To: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Anne_=D8stergaard?=" In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010643x1dfe5e48mbcf68a2fd0352fae@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> <1149168764.6894.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2cb10c440606010643x1dfe5e48mbcf68a2fd0352fae@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:44:24 -0000 On 6/1/06, Luis Villa wrote: > On 6/1/06, Anne =D8stergaard wrote: > > tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 09:05 -0400, skrev Luis Villa: > > > On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > Luis Villa wrote: > > > > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > > > > > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a develop= er*- > > > > > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > > > > > someone with such experience. > > > > > > > > That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a devel= oper > > > > from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women inv= olved > > > > in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct > > > > discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so = who's > > > > better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-g= eek? > > > > > > A female geek? > > > > I would like to hear your definition of a geek, please. > > For the purposes of this discussion, 'someone actively involved in the > development of our software through the traditional means used by our > community'. This need not be direct software development (as everyone > knows I do very little of that) but it does mean involvement in > creating the product that we ship, and it does mean at least some > participation in the mainstream of the community- desktop-devel-list, > #gnome-hackers, etc. And I might add that the reason this is important is that it seems to me insane that someone could devise policy to get people involved in something they have not themselves participated in. Luis From anne@oestergaard.nu Thu Jun 1 09:59:39 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 831943B01C4 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:59:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08905-06 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:59:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero1.cybercity.dk (cicero1.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55B103B009D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:59:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user3.cybercity.dk (user3.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.36]) by cicero1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39B0D63ED41 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:59:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user3.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id E770393E9B for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:59:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 24279 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2006 13:59:34 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 1 Jun 2006 13:59:34 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Luis Villa In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:59:34 +0200 Message-Id: <1149170374.6894.73.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.535 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.064, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.535 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:59:39 -0000 tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 08:13 -0400, skrev Luis Villa: > On 6/1/06, Murray Cumming wrote: > > Anne wrote: > > [snip] > > > I do not say this to start a new long debat in this tread. But it has > > > become obvious that the 1% participation of women in FLOSS is > > > embarrassing and we need to have a look at why this is the case and make > > > some cultural changes. > > > > > > I know that the Computer Science Department at the University of > > > Gothenburg in Sweden has a gender action plan: > > > http://www.informatik.gu.se/dokument/dokument.xsp?group=jamstalldhet&menu=org > > > > > > I think that many other universities and even GNOME and Ubuntu could get > > > a lot of inspiration here. (Provided it gets translated from Swedish > > > into a language you understand.) > > [snip] > > > > Realistically, this plans needs to be written by you. Others will help you > > with it, but you need to create it and drive it. > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > someone with such experience. The FLOSSPOLS report was so eyeopening because it was written by a man who had to learn about these matters first and had a professional scientific experience and tool case to use. I will work with the whole of the women in FLOSS community as well as with the persons who wrote the FLOSSPOLS reports and others who have written scientific reports and with those of you who are interested. Just because you can't cover the whole spectrum personally does not mean that I am not entitled to have an opinion. I have experience in gender issues on a professional basis in the Nordic Countries, EU, and UN which might help. I attended the UN conference in Beijing representing the Nordic Council. Besides Luis I have manufactured a FLOSS nerd many years ago so I have access to free in house expertise on the technical matters. Have you by the way had time to read the FLOSSPOLS report yourself? Anne From hobbit@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk Thu Jun 1 10:28:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 033D03B009D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:28:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11133-10 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:28:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk [81.2.110.251]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F8913B0262 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:28:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (8.13.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id k51Dg9xP016043 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:42:09 +0100 Received: (from hobbit@localhost) by lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k51Dg8iZ016042 for foundation-list@gnome.org; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:42:08 +0100 Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:42:08 +0100 From: Telsa Gwynne To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060601134208.GA14011@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.503 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.096, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.503 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:28:54 -0000 Ar Tue, May 30, 2006 at 01:04:43PM +0200, ysgrifennodd Murray Cumming: > I don't think we need a whole organisation to police it. At the least, it > should just be how we expect people to behave on mailing lists and IRC and > it could be up to the administrator of that list or channel to decide > whether somone's conduct is unacceptable. But maybe some people would be > reassured by the existence of some group that they could go to in extreme > circumstances. > > Here's a simple start: > http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct > > What do you think? What else would you like to see there? I think this is a long-overdue thing to do. I also think that there is no fun being part of a "community" which is actually arguing the toss on whether "we think people should be courteous to each other within this community" is a good thing or not. Telsa From liam@holoweb.net Thu Jun 1 10:32:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6566A3B0225 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:32:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11652-07 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:32:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hd-t1637cl.privatedns.com (ip-209-172-34-239.reverse.privatedns.com [209.172.34.239]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7180F3B023E for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:32:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 28816 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2006 14:41:31 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO dell.barefootcomputing.com) (127.0.0.1) by hd-t1637cl.privatedns.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2006 14:41:31 -0000 From: Liam R E Quin To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149065540.5127.117.camel@localhost> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 10:29:53 -0400 Message-Id: <1149172193.8916.108.camel@dell.barefootcomputing.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1-1mdk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.564 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.035, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.564 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:32:47 -0000 On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 13:23 +0200, Anne Østergaard wrote: [...] > I have personally had the feeling over the past couple of years that the > general atmosphere in the GNOME community has hardened. Although I am not sure what you mean by hardened here, it doesn't sound good. > I fully agree with Bill and others here and I think we have to establish > a gender action plan within GNOME, Ubuntu etc. A non-discrimination policy would be a useful thing to do. The city of Toronto has a fairly good one, devised in conjunction with a large number of minority groups over a long period: http://www.toronto.ca/grants/pdf/declaration_non_discrimination_policy.pdf It was printed on a huge multilingual poster (including Braille) and distributed widely. Creation or adoption of such a policy is not the same as saying that there is discrimination, of course -- it is saying that discrimination isn't OK. Gnome has done ground-breaking work on accessibility, on internationalisation, and on usability. This work ought to be sending a strong message that diversity is welcomed. Beyond that I am not sure how to get more women involved. One difficulty is cultural in many parts of the world, unfortunately: girls are often trained to turn to boys when something needs fixing. To get back on topic of the original thread, I'd rather see some non-discrimination non-violence policies in place and then a code of conduct would consist of "follow the guidelines". Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org From luis.villa@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 11:11:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91A883B023D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:11:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14988-04 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:11:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.206]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 492373B01C4 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:11:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so262700wxd for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 08:11:10 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=c7nCkDAeUk9IARaAuoVqYt1X9YWo84LfbEM3sclWHemKQVbV6XZwhimTvwKq3L7pxQHE+osmIJDrNectrnGDL6lD3NLgBJO3tf9krWJaNK9P7mHIyFopDtnCN3soWOcj6dmTUZqcs/v2wRK7V/1rovRn7brKfqTNc4J/9yQMHak= Received: by 10.70.89.7 with SMTP id m7mr842070wxb; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 08:11:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.2 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:11:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2cb10c440606010811p27d3a2cfk1d834f6e2ca01d74@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:11:10 -0400 From: "Luis Villa" To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20060601134208.GA14011@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060601134208.GA14011@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:11:13 -0000 On 6/1/06, Telsa Gwynne wrote: > Ar Tue, May 30, 2006 at 01:04:43PM +0200, ysgrifennodd Murray Cumming: > > I don't think we need a whole organisation to police it. At the least, it > > should just be how we expect people to behave on mailing lists and IRC and > > it could be up to the administrator of that list or channel to decide > > whether somone's conduct is unacceptable. But maybe some people would be > > reassured by the existence of some group that they could go to in extreme > > circumstances. > > > > Here's a simple start: > > http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct > > > > What do you think? What else would you like to see there? > > I think this is a long-overdue thing to do. > > I also think that there is no fun being part of a "community" which is > actually arguing the toss on whether "we think people should be courteous > to each other within this community" is a good thing or not. I don't think anyone is arguing against being courteous; I'm certainly not. I just think we'd be better off focusing on actually making people more courteous, instead of writing rules about it. Luis From david.bolter@utoronto.ca Thu Jun 1 11:26:26 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5FB23B0D6C for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:26:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16176-02 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:26:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bureau8.utcc.utoronto.ca (bureau8.utcc.utoronto.ca [128.100.132.18]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CC433B027D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:26:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from otter.atrc.utoronto.ca ([142.150.154.224] EHLO [142.150.154.224] ident: IDENT-NOT-QUERIED [port 36999]) by bureau8.utcc.utoronto.ca with ESMTP id <25261-25808>; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:23:26 -0400 Message-ID: <447F066B.3020108@utoronto.ca> Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:23:23 -0400 From: David Bolter User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060420) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Luis Villa References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060601134208.GA14011@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> <2cb10c440606010811p27d3a2cfk1d834f6e2ca01d74@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010811p27d3a2cfk1d834f6e2ca01d74@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.564 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.035, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.564 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:26:27 -0000 Luis Villa wrote: > On 6/1/06, Telsa Gwynne wrote: >> Ar Tue, May 30, 2006 at 01:04:43PM +0200, ysgrifennodd Murray Cumming: >> > I don't think we need a whole organisation to police it. At the >> least, it >> > should just be how we expect people to behave on mailing lists and >> IRC and >> > it could be up to the administrator of that list or channel to decide >> > whether somone's conduct is unacceptable. But maybe some people >> would be >> > reassured by the existence of some group that they could go to in >> extreme >> > circumstances. >> > >> > Here's a simple start: >> > http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct >> > >> > What do you think? What else would you like to see there? >> >> I think this is a long-overdue thing to do. >> >> I also think that there is no fun being part of a "community" which is >> actually arguing the toss on whether "we think people should be >> courteous >> to each other within this community" is a good thing or not. > > I don't think anyone is arguing against being courteous; I'm certainly > not. I just think we'd be better off focusing on actually making > people more courteous, instead of writing rules about it. > I sense we are all close to agreeing here... I think the fear is the idea that rules will restrict us. The GPL is very restrictive but isn't that what makes GPL software so free? I like the idea of having guidelines that suggest the protection of people from discrimination. Being a shy Canadian... if I was on IRC witnessing silliness I would like the option of politely pointing someone to a guidelines wiki page than actually arguing with them. cheers, David From uraeus@linuxrising.org Thu Jun 1 11:36:19 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 675EB3B0DDC for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:36:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16890-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:36:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx1.es6.egwn.net (server02.es6.egwn.net [195.10.6.12]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1B253B02A2 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:36:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.235] (core.fluendo.com [195.10.6.237]) by mx1.es6.egwn.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 788BA4F8310 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:36:15 +0200 (CEST) From: Christian Fredrik Kalager Schaller To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149065540.5127.117.camel@localhost> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 17:34:53 +0200 Message-Id: <1149176093.2487.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 (2.6.1-1.fc5.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.056 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.057, BAYES_50=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -0.056 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:36:19 -0000 On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 13:23 +0200, Anne Østergaard wrote: > I have personally had the feeling over the past couple of years that the > general atmosphere in the GNOME community has hardened. > I don't think its has hardened as much as grown older. Going back 5 years we where 'all' in our early/mid twenties or late teens with a lot extra energy and exploring a new frontier. Today a lot of the same people are around, getting close to or having passed thirty. Hair is thinning, greying or receding, bellies growing and the long term effect of a coke and pizza diet is taking its toll on both mind and body. These people have grown wise with age, but also their patience and energy to help newbie number 1000 who asks a less informed question have fallen. So answers tend either to not be forthcoming or being short often feeling a bit curt, maybe just a 'sorry WONTFIX'. The regrowth of younger developers, who might have the energy to devote to helping the lost noobs, tend to want to defer answering questions to the old wizards in the fear of saying something wrong as things have also grown more complicated since those early days. I don't think we can solve this apart from enforcing retirement from the community once passed 30 to keep our average young and energetic :) Christian From alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk Thu Jun 1 11:39:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E01953B02D6 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:39:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17200-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:39:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from out.lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (unknown [81.2.110.250]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E049C3B0215 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:39:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by out.lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k51Dve6a014608; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:00:22 +0100 Received: (from alan@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.4/8.13.4/Submit) id k51Dvd2O014606; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:57:39 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: alan set sender to alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk using -f From: Alan Cox To: Murray Cumming In-Reply-To: <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:57:33 +0100 Message-Id: <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.3 (2.2.3-2.fc4) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.593 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.006, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.593 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:39:56 -0000 On Iau, 2006-06-01 at 14:33 +0200, Murray Cumming wrote: > Hmm, how about people working together? It just seems that the person who > most most obviously wants this should be the person trying to make it > happen. I'd be wary of pursuing just the "women in GNOME" issue, because many of the same things put off far more than just women. Running around shouting "pants off" is not, for example, very compatible with the Japanese cultural expectations. Also if "Code of Conduct" is too strong then "Expected Behaviour" perhaps. Personally I don't see a problem with "Code of Conduct" in that it deals with acting for, speaking for, representing or being part of Gnome, or when using its facilities. It isn't too much to ask for people to keep other stuff elsewhere, or to engage in other incompatible activities from a non-gnome email address or on a different irc network. Alan From shaunm@gnome.org Thu Jun 1 11:51:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E25B3B0215 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:51:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17493-09 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:51:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wolfram.com (mailhub.wolfram.com [140.177.10.16]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC8F63B02D6 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:51:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shaunmlx.wri.wolfram.com (shaunmlx.wri.wolfram.com [140.177.4.54]) (authenticated bits=0) by wolfram.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k51FpH0N012193 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:51:18 -0500 From: Shaun McCance To: Dave Neary In-Reply-To: <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440605300709u669c5da2sa352f1f5fedf2b06@mail.gmail.com> <14439.194.138.18.131.1149000460.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060530151633.GB28961@bridgewayconsulting.com.au> <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 10:51:17 -0500 Message-Id: <1149177077.31607.13.camel@shaunmlx> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.527 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.072, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.527 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming , Davyd Madeley Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:51:45 -0000 On Tue, 2006-05-30 at 17:31 +0200, Dave Neary wrote: > Hi, > > Davyd Madeley wrote: > > Also of interest, a (female) colleague asked where we're getting our > > 1% contribution statistic from. It sounds believable, but is it > > people with CVS accounts, or does it include translators who send > > translations to their i18n team leader. Did someone just look > > through a list of names and guess the genders? Similarly for > > "asianness" (sic). Are we just using the domain names on their > > email addresses? > > The 1% comes from the FLOSS-POLS report on women in free software, among > others. Hanna Wallach's presented a 1.5% figure from that result before: > http://grandtextauto.gatech.edu/2005/11/22/debian-women/ > > That's 1.5% in free software compared to 28% in proprietary software. I'd be interested in seeing the raw numbers. My experience in the proprietary software industry is that there tends to be a reasonably high percentage of women in technical jobs that aren't necessarily programming (though they may involve some programming), such as project management, tech writing, graphic design, and quality assurance. All of these positions tend to be under-represented in the free software world, at least among volunteer efforts. I'm not trying to say that we need more of these positions just to inflate our gender numbers (though I will say we need more of these positions for other reasons). All I'm saying is that the free and proprietary numbers might be measuring slightly different things, and that the proprietary software industry might not be as well integrated as indicated. -- Shaun From murrayc@murrayc.com Thu Jun 1 12:57:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E33E13B0236 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 12:57:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22029-06 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 12:57:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swarthymail-a1.dreamhost.com (ip-208-97-132-53.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 460493B0115 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 12:57:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from noname (p5497F70E.dip.t-dialin.net [84.151.247.14]) by swarthymail-a1.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D70690DF8; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:57:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Murray Cumming To: Alan Cox In-Reply-To: <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 18:57:44 +0200 Message-Id: <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.507 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.092, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.507 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 16:57:54 -0000 On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 14:57 +0100, Alan Cox wrote: > On Iau, 2006-06-01 at 14:33 +0200, Murray Cumming wrote: > > Hmm, how about people working together? It just seems that the person who > > most most obviously wants this should be the person trying to make it > > happen. > > I'd be wary of pursuing just the "women in GNOME" issue, because many of > the same things put off far more than just women. Yes, that's why the gender issue is only one (possible) part of the code of conduct, though it's the reason that I got around to finally pushing it. But Anne is asking specifically for a gender policy/plan, apparently separate to that. I'd just like her to make a suggestion. > Running around > shouting "pants off" is not, for example, very compatible with the > Japanese cultural expectations. > > Also if "Code of Conduct" is too strong then "Expected Behaviour" > perhaps. Personally I don't see a problem with "Code of Conduct" in that > it deals with acting for, speaking for, representing or being part of > Gnome, or when using its facilities. > > It isn't too much to ask for people to keep other stuff elsewhere, or to > engage in other incompatible activities from a non-gnome email address > or on a different irc network. -- Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From anne@oestergaard.nu Thu Jun 1 16:22:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B3E13B0345 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:22:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04031-09 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:22:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61F4C3B0350 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:22:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user5.cybercity.dk (user5.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.51]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 296332450B9 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 22:21:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user5.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id D218D3A1CEA for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 22:21:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 29142 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2006 20:21:57 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 1 Jun 2006 20:21:57 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Murray Cumming In-Reply-To: <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 22:21:56 +0200 Message-Id: <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.536 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.063, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.536 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Alan Cox Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 20:22:13 -0000 tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 18:57 +0200, skrev Murray Cumming: > On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 14:57 +0100, Alan Cox wrote: > > On Iau, 2006-06-01 at 14:33 +0200, Murray Cumming wrote: > > > Hmm, how about people working together? It just seems that the person who > > > most most obviously wants this should be the person trying to make it > > > happen. > > > > I'd be wary of pursuing just the "women in GNOME" issue, because many of > > the same things put off far more than just women. Yes. > Yes, that's why the gender issue is only one (possible) part of the code > of conduct, though it's the reason that I got around to finally pushing > it. > > But Anne is asking specifically for a gender policy/plan, apparently > separate to that. I'd just like her to make a suggestion. I think it is a natural step to take after the EU and FLOSSPOLS report has shown that women are being excluded from the community.- If we want to se some change in attitudes and behavior in GNOME and FLOSS, and se more women involved in the future in all parts and capacities of our projects, we need to find out why only a little more than 1% of are women. > > Running around > > shouting "pants off" is not, for example, very compatible with the > > Japanese cultural expectations. I don't expect it either. > > Also if "Code of Conduct" is too strong then "Expected Behaviour" > > perhaps. Personally I don't see a problem with "Code of Conduct" in that > > it deals with acting for, speaking for, representing or being part of > > Gnome, or when using its facilities. I fully agree. Anne From gpoo@ubiobio.cl Thu Jun 1 16:30:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FCD53B0F5A for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:30:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04723-03 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:30:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay.ubiobio.cl (atlas.dci.ubiobio.cl [146.83.195.21]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18FC33B0DF6 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:30:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by forward.ubiobio.cl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85A3A400341; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:29:06 -0400 (CLT) Received: from pegasus.dci.ubiobio.cl ([146.83.195.11]) by localhost (antivirus.dci.ubiobio.cl [146.83.195.21]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04672-54; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:29:05 -0400 (CLT) Received: from mimos.local (unknown [146.83.198.86]) by pegasus.dci.ubiobio.cl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87AB32804423; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:30:33 -0400 (CLT) From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Germ=E1n_Po=F3_Caama=F1o?= To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 16:30:37 -0400 Message-Id: <1149193838.15278.79.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at ubiobio.cl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.414 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.414 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Alan Cox , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 20:30:49 -0000 On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 22:21 +0200, Anne Østergaard wrote: > tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 18:57 +0200, skrev Murray Cumming: > > On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 14:57 +0100, Alan Cox wrote: > [...] > > > Also if "Code of Conduct" is too strong then "Expected Behaviour" > > > perhaps. Personally I don't see a problem with "Code of Conduct" in that > > > it deals with acting for, speaking for, representing or being part of > > > Gnome, or when using its facilities. > > I fully agree. Some part of this already exists for a long time ago. But, at the moment it is only applied to mail aliases: http://developer.gnome.org/doc/policies/accounts/mail.html The proposal is a kind of extension of that policy, but in the other way (saying what is good). -- Germán Poó-Caamaño http://www.ubiobio.cl/~gpoo/ Concepción - Chile From dneary@free.fr Thu Jun 1 17:13:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ECC13B03C7 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:13:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07168-10 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:13:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp3-g19.free.fr (smtp3-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.29]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4C0B3B035E for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:13:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp3-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8B524970D; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 23:13:42 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <447F5885.8080600@free.fr> Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 23:13:41 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.8 (X11/20060502) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Anne_=D8stergaard?= References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.573 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.026, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.573 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Alan Cox , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 21:13:46 -0000 Hi, Anne Østergaard wrote: > tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 18:57 +0200, skrev Murray Cumming: > I think it is a natural step to take after the EU and FLOSSPOLS report > has shown that women are being excluded from the community.- What I've seen shows that women are not participating in the community - this is not necessarily the same thing as being excluded (which implies some kind of conscious decision on the part of "the community"). Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From domlachowicz@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 17:50:06 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A76A3B029F for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:50:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09033-03 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:50:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.201]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6E823B0323 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:50:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so326172wxd for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:50:04 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=EQz0j9dnYEQkJhXAWayQpR6Xs35ItnM88LGVKIs10TURvWQmE6UuwzzLxOzpt1X2dwvby4ZelOufGT05N2Yikg+fSfXy2u6eVp3ujRO/pA1QWEdDbOk22uuXhBzixogXA7P1933/m5QcoH1eLyDgDl9Ylk6aELLr4sukH7cNQ6c= Received: by 10.70.102.11 with SMTP id z11mr1409705wxb; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.105.2 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2672cf4d0606011450m58601cadq2f8694e2968d753c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:50:04 -0400 From: "Dominic Lachowicz" To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.452 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.148, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.452 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 21:50:06 -0000 > I think it is a natural step to take after the EU and FLOSSPOLS report > has shown that women are being excluded from the community.- This rubs me the wrong way. It's not like we're actively working to exclude women, Asians, or Martians from GNOME. Nor are we actively trying to make GNOME a boys-only club. Simply put, there's no conscious, malicious intent behind the disproportionate male/female ratio, or "Western"/Asian ratio. And I think that this matters... > If we want to se some change in attitudes and behavior in GNOME and > FLOSS, and se more women involved in the future in all parts and > capacities of our projects, we need to find out why only a little more > than 1% of are women. ... because I don't believe that actively pursuing "diversity" for its own sake is a valid goal. I may sound myopic here, but I don't see what the goal of recruiting women qua women or Asians qua Asians gains us as a community. I refuse to measure diversity based on one's genitals or skin color. [However, (for example) recruiting Asians as an attempt to understand their needs, skills, and mentality in order to acquire a greater Asian market share, however, could be ok. Asians are the means. A rockin' version of GNOME on lots of Asian computers is the end.] Instituting open-door policies, non-discriminatory policies/"codes of conduct", and the like are worthwhile goals in-and-of themselves. They advertise what the core tenets of our community are, and this is something we should become better at. But one should not necessarily abandon established (nay, endearing) traits of our community just to grow it larger. You'd give up something concretely cool about the community for some undefined, possibly non-existant benefit. And that ain't diversity, it's its opposite. I'd rather see us resolve to do a better job of marketing how open, cool, and charismatic we are as a community, and let the chips fall where they will. Get the word out to as many people as practicable, welcome everyone, and let the diversity come to us as an organic result of our general openness and coolness. Where we have some specific goal in mind, change as necessary to meet that goal. But don't change for change's sake alone. Recruit interesting people. Recruit smart, talented people. Recruit people useful for your ends. Welcome all people. But don't recruit genitals and skin colors. They're neither interesting nor useful for free software's purposes. Justice is blind, and so should we be. Best, Dom -- Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums. From jdub@waugh.id.au Thu Jun 1 21:05:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 763FE3B0F8D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:05:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20266-06 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:05:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 674FB3B0FA8 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:05:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (ppp121-112.static.internode.on.net [150.101.121.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89CA13C573 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:05:29 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2569D40B4; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:05:26 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:05:26 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060602010526.GE5138@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060601134208.GA14011@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> <2cb10c440606010811p27d3a2cfk1d834f6e2ca01d74@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010811p27d3a2cfk1d834f6e2ca01d74@mail.gmail.com> Reply-By: Mon Jun 5 11:01:11 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 11:01:11 up 10:53, 6 users, load average: 0.23, 0.11, 0.16 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.445 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.445 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Isn't and Wasn't "Rules" [Was: Code Of Conduct] X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 01:05:33 -0000 > I don't think anyone is arguing against being courteous; I'm certainly > not. I just think we'd be better off focusing on actually making people > more courteous, instead of writing rules about it. I think most everyone else has got out of the "characterising it as rules" thing already. It's pretty obvious that's not what Murray's suggesting, or what we're (slowly, consensus-gridlock-ly) buying into. I think a fun way to deal with this criticism ('cos it's valid and expected) is to actually make it a Very GNOMEy Code of Conduct. Let's not beat around the bush - first point: "Be Excellent to Each Other". *guitar lick* - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ "To do: Start up a a magazine dedicated to picky grammar. Call it 'Whom Weekly'." - WzDD From jdub@waugh.id.au Thu Jun 1 21:08:39 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ED713B0D7A for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:08:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20777-05 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:08:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72BFD3B0196 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:08:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (ppp121-112.static.internode.on.net [150.101.121.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEA123C31C for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:08:35 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3CEC340B4; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:08:32 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:08:32 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060602010832.GF5138@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060601134208.GA14011@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> <2cb10c440606010811p27d3a2cfk1d834f6e2ca01d74@mail.gmail.com> <20060602010526.GE5138@waugh.id.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060602010526.GE5138@waugh.id.au> Reply-By: Mon Jun 5 11:08:22 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 11:08:22 up 11:00, 6 users, load average: 0.01, 0.04, 0.09 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.445 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.445 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Isn't and Wasn't "Rules" [Was: Code Of Conduct] X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 01:08:39 -0000 > I think a fun way to deal with this criticism ('cos it's valid and > expected) is to actually make it a Very GNOMEy Code of Conduct. Let's not > beat around the bush - first point: "Be Excellent to Each Other". > > *guitar lick* (added this point to the wiki page) - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2007: Sydney, Australia http://lca2007.linux.org.au/ "I don't want the world, I just want your half." - They Might Be Giants, Ana Ng From murrayc@murrayc.com Fri Jun 2 03:16:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 278B63B1058 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 03:16:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05391-08 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 03:16:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail2.sd.dreamhost.com (webmail2.sd.dreamhost.com [66.33.201.157]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3157B3B1008 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 03:16:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.murrayc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by webmail2.sd.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6311ADC71B; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 00:16:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 194.138.18.132 (proxying for unknown) (SquirrelMail authenticated user murrayc@murrayc.com) by webmail.murrayc.com with HTTP; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 09:16:43 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <44634.194.138.18.132.1149232603.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606011450m58601cadq2f8694e2968d753c@mail.gmail.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606011450m58601cadq2f8694e2968d753c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 09:16:43 +0200 (CEST) From: "Murray Cumming" To: "Dominic Lachowicz" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.557 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.042, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.557 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 07:16:48 -0000 >> I think it is a natural step to take after the EU and FLOSSPOLS report >> has shown that women are being excluded from the community.- > > This rubs me the wrong way. It's not like we're actively working to > exclude women, Asians, or Martians from GNOME. Nor are we actively > trying to make GNOME a boys-only club. Simply put, there's no > conscious, malicious intent behind the disproportionate male/female > ratio, or "Western"/Asian ratio. And I think that this matters... Yet it may require conscious intent to fix it. >> If we want to se some change in attitudes and behavior in GNOME and >> FLOSS, and se more women involved in the future in all parts and >> capacities of our projects, we need to find out why only a little more >> than 1% of are women. > > ... because I don't believe that actively pursuing "diversity" for its > own sake is a valid goal. I may sound myopic here, but I don't see > what the goal of recruiting women qua women or Asians qua Asians gains > us as a community. Other than the obvious morally repellent idea that we might be perceived as unwelcoming to arbitrary large groups of people [1], there are plenty of selfish reasons for doing this: - We are a worldwide project aiming to create a project to make the world a better place for humanity, so we really should be trying our best to involve representative parts of the world in that. It makes it more likely that we will create a product that helps with their goals. - Women + Asia are two huge groups of potential contributors. That many contributors can make a huge contribution if we can get them on board. [1] The idea is so awful that we should be doing whatever we can even if we are not sure that it's going to work or that we are the cause, certainly as long as those things are not going to hurt us. What we have to gain is far more than we have to lose. > I refuse to measure diversity based on one's > genitals or skin color. > > [However, (for example) recruiting Asians as an attempt to understand > their needs, skills, and mentality in order to acquire a greater Asian > market share, however, could be ok. Asians are the means. A rockin' > version of GNOME on lots of Asian computers is the end.] > > Instituting open-door policies, non-discriminatory policies/"codes of > conduct", and the like are worthwhile goals in-and-of themselves. They > advertise what the core tenets of our community are, and this is > something we should become better at. But one should not necessarily > abandon established (nay, endearing) traits of our community just to > grow it larger. You'd give up something concretely cool about the > community for some undefined, possibly non-existant benefit. And that > ain't diversity, it's its opposite. > > I'd rather see us resolve to do a better job of marketing how open, > cool, and charismatic we are as a community, and let the chips fall > where they will. Get the word out to as many people as practicable, > welcome everyone, and let the diversity come to us as an organic > result of our general openness and coolness. Where we have some > specific goal in mind, change as necessary to meet that goal. But > don't change for change's sake alone. > > Recruit interesting people. Recruit smart, talented people. Recruit > people useful for your ends. Welcome all people. But don't recruit > genitals and skin colors. They're neither interesting nor useful for > free software's purposes. Justice is blind, and so should we be. This unfortunately ignores the conclusion that many have made that some groups will not feel at home in a community until their are people like them in the community. To get to that critical mass we may need to help the process along a bit. I think Callum said it well: http://spooky-possum.org/cgi-bin/pyblosxom.cgi/womenoss.html The code of conduct doesn't try to address that directly, however. It's just a small part of it. Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From dneary@free.fr Fri Jun 2 11:12:08 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B8BE3B0492; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:12:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02791-04; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:12:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.wanadoo.fr (smtp1.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.30]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 714393B045D; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:12:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf0101.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id DE51F1C00250; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:12:03 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060602151203910.DE51F1C00250@mwinf0101.orange.fr Message-ID: <44805543.9030503@free.fr> Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 17:12:03 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Foundation-List , Advisory Board X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Co-option of Quim Gil to the board X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:12:08 -0000 Hi, When Luis announced to the board that he wanted to resign [1] a couple of weeks ago, the board discussed our options - referendum or co-option. We felt that co-opting a new member onto the board, on the basis of the election results last December, was the best way to select the newest member of the board. Our decision was made easy by the fact that since the election, this person has gone on to become a heavyweight in the GNOME community in very short order. So without further ado, I'd like to announce that the board has decided to co-opt Quim Gil onto the board into the vacant position left by Luis Villa, effective immediately. We're all sorry to see Luis leave the board, but I have a feeling that this means we'll be hearing even more from him in the future. I'd like to wish him all the best in his budding legal career. Welcome on board, Quim. Cheers, Dave. [1] http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/06/01/resigning-from-the-board/ -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From anne@oestergaard.nu Fri Jun 2 11:20:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 323583B0508 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:20:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03437-07 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:20:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero1.cybercity.dk (cicero1.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1D7C3B01DB for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:20:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EE2A63F49B for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:20:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 66BAF750595 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:20:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 7791 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2006 15:20:29 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 2 Jun 2006 15:20:29 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: foundation-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 17:20:29 +0200 Message-Id: <1149261629.6843.46.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.33 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.145, BAYES_40=-0.185] X-Spam-Score: -1.33 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Denmark to follow in the foot steps of Massachuchets on open standards X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:20:34 -0000 Denmark to follow in the foot steps of Massachuchets on open standards. Half an hour ago the Danish Parliament, Folketinget voted on B 103 on introducing open standards in the state administration: The short version: " To introduce and maintain a set of open standards from January 1st 2008 or if this is not possible as soon as it is technically possible". All voters, 113 voted in favor. This means that the Minister Of Science, Technology and Innovation has to make a law proposal at present it in the next session of Folketinget after the sommer vacation. This is a huge step forward for kompetition and interoperability in the software sector. Best wishes Anne From luis.villa@gmail.com Fri Jun 2 11:42:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4D6B3B0135 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:42:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04691-10 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:42:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.207]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C508B3B0487 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:42:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so573067wxd for ; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 08:42:41 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=alaXrWnB7HFYQ//qRQWu01yX6KdjMGVhaJlybNLM3KO7RMd5Uc4kem7mi8uVGw8RntB0znpdBPAwJGaZl1JIHs04AUo1LEXRBhVBM0027t55glEdEsh/X/4An6icYfYVvGITMl38FizG9Hsn0KfHIvq62jL7wLvvcynRswYJQiA= Received: by 10.70.105.9 with SMTP id d9mr2597990wxc; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 08:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.2 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 08:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2cb10c440606020842r42c3eed1v9b9fb9796cffc37e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:42:39 -0400 From: "Luis Villa" To: "Dave Neary" In-Reply-To: <44805543.9030503@free.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <44805543.9030503@free.fr> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Foundation-List Subject: Re: Co-option of Quim Gil to the board X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:42:48 -0000 On 6/2/06, Dave Neary wrote: > We're all sorry to see Luis leave the > board, but I have a feeling that this means we'll be hearing even more > from him in the future. I'd like to wish him all the best in his budding > legal career. Should have announced that here first, of course :) My mistake. To paraphrase what I said on the blog post, when I ran for board this year, I mentioned that I'd be AWOL towards the end of the term, but I miscalculated for how long. Given that it would have been roughly 1/2 of the term, I decided to resign as quickly as the correct replacement could be found. Given Quim's excellent leadership of GUADEC so far, I have every confidence that he'll do an excellent job of it. It has been an honor and a pleasure to be elected to the board as many times as I have- I owe a big debt of thanks to everyone who has supported me over the years. I hope I've served well and fulfilled your expectations. Luis From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Fri Jun 2 17:59:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF3F63B0424 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:59:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26906-01 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:59:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 02A003B0408 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:59:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 6750 invoked by uid 0); 2 Jun 2006 21:59:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.34]) (83.42.203.236) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 21:59:45 +0000 From: Quim Gil To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <4480555C.8070702@free.fr> References: <4480555C.8070702@free.fr> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-We/bITLkFRm0xgU/rk3X" Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 23:59:45 +0200 Message-Id: <1149285585.4975.205.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.499, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Co-option of Quim Gil to the board X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 21:59:52 -0000 --=-We/bITLkFRm0xgU/rk3X Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El dv 02 de 06 del 2006 a les 17:12 +0200, en/na Dave Neary va escriure: > Welcome on board, Quim. Thank you for the trust. Where is the manual? Throw me some tasks... to be started really on July 1st. Let me say thanks to Murray for the ignition, thanks to Dave for the companion and thanks to Luis... not for leaving but for being a referent in many aspects. I still don't know what he does all the time with the bugsquashers ;) but reading him here and there is always a constructive experience. And thanks of course to the open, friendly and welcoming GNOME community, that I'm getting to know in various aspects from my seat at the GUADEC ticket window.=20 For the administrativia and the transparency:=20 I was still affiliated to interactors.coop when I presented candidacy last December, but on January I was already independent and self-employed. Since then I'm working part time for GUADEC 2006, being paid by the Information Society office of the Catalan government (this could be considered my current affiliation) until July 15th. =20 --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-We/bITLkFRm0xgU/rk3X Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEgLTRBEzHYk6x634RAus1AKCFY7lfbc38l3Ye7IPooXcpo5i9zACgmj37 QthA+VvQOHgeSKgkqm530+k= =m61U -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-We/bITLkFRm0xgU/rk3X-- From alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk Sun Jun 4 12:16:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C50043B01B6 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 12:16:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28610-07 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 12:16:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (unknown [81.2.110.250]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4DAD3B009F for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 12:16:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k54GVY3s024738; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:31:35 +0100 Received: (from alan@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k54GVYRS024737; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:31:34 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: alan set sender to alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk using -f From: Alan Cox To: Dominic Lachowicz In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606011450m58601cadq2f8694e2968d753c@mail.gmail.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606011450m58601cadq2f8694e2968d753c@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 17:31:33 +0100 Message-Id: <1149438693.23209.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 (2.6.1-1.fc5.2) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.386 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.201, BAYES_40=-0.185] X-Spam-Score: -1.386 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 16:16:27 -0000 Ar Iau, 2006-06-01 am 17:50 -0400, ysgrifennodd Dominic Lachowicz: > This rubs me the wrong way. It's not like we're actively working to > exclude women, Asians, or Martians from GNOME. Nor are we actively > trying to make GNOME a boys-only club. Simply put, there's no > conscious, malicious intent behind the disproportionate male/female > ratio, or "Western"/Asian ratio. And I think that this matters... It shouldn't IMHO be taken that way. Most discrimination of all kinds is utterly unintentional, and that kind of discrimination is harder to tackle because there is no evil intent and no-one to directly blame. It still needs tackling, and that is in part about making people understand when their actions put off or exclude others. Alan From danilo@gnome.org Sun Jun 4 18:36:42 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED3AB3B0080 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 18:36:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15344-09 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 18:36:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from avet.kvota.net (unknown [147.91.15.33]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4238D3B0008 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 18:36:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by avet.kvota.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1A75A7D1A0; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 00:41:17 +0200 (CEST) To: Alan Cox References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606011450m58601cadq2f8694e2968d753c@mail.gmail.com> <1149438693.23209.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> From: danilo@gnome.org (=?utf-8?q?Danilo_=C5=A0egan?=) Mail-Followup-To: Alan Cox , Dominic Lachowicz , foundation-list@gnome.org Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 00:41:16 +0200 In-Reply-To: <1149438693.23209.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> (Alan Cox's message of "Sun, 04 Jun 2006 17:31:33 +0100") Message-ID: <87k67w8rxv.fsf@avet.kvota.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/21.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.489 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.110, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.489 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 22:36:42 -0000 Hi Alan, Dominic, Yesterday at 18:31, Alan Cox wrote: > It shouldn't IMHO be taken that way. Most discrimination of all kinds is > utterly unintentional, and that kind of discrimination is harder to > tackle because there is no evil intent and no-one to directly blame. It > still needs tackling, and that is in part about making people understand > when their actions put off or exclude others. Any actions whatsoever put off or exclude others. Eg. even insisting on freedom (in practice) excludes those who insist that they need no freedom in software (even if we're not intentionally excluding them: if they need no freedom, it doesn't mean that it will harm them, so why wouldn't they join and help us?). And as already indicated on this list, there are several people here who are afraid that establishing Code of Conduct would "put off or exclude others" as well (i.e. be "discriminative"). And not because they would not abide by the rules, but because they wouldn't want to be told what to, and what not to do. Shall we stop promoting freedom because of this "discrimination"? Or "being nice"? (this is exactly the reason I am in favour of CoC: just like we should promote freedom even if it puts off someone, we should promote politeness even if it excludes someone) I'd rather say that we're getting increasingly and needlessly touchy here. Lets just get on with the Code of Conduct (or whatever the name is now), and hope that it will resolve issues we as a community might have, yet are unable to acknowledge or recognise. Cheers, Danilo From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Mon Jun 5 03:15:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66D613B0560 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 03:15:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10156-09 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 03:14:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C3F413B070E for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 03:14:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 32058 invoked by uid 0); 5 Jun 2006 07:14:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.34]) (83.55.175.229) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 07:14:53 +0000 From: Quim Gil To: Shaun McCance In-Reply-To: <1149177077.31607.13.camel@shaunmlx> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440605300709u669c5da2sa352f1f5fedf2b06@mail.gmail.com> <14439.194.138.18.131.1149000460.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060530151633.GB28961@bridgewayconsulting.com.au> <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> <1149177077.31607.13.camel@shaunmlx> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-CbFrQf4qX9tQSp9+ED3+" Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 09:14:51 +0200 Message-Id: <1149491692.5124.54.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.281 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=1.318, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -1.281 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 07:15:03 -0000 --=-CbFrQf4qX9tQSp9+ED3+ Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El dj 01 de 06 del 2006 a les 10:51 -0500, en/na Shaun McCance va escriure: > there tends to > be a reasonably high percentage of women in technical jobs > that aren't necessarily programming (though they may involve > some programming), such as project management, tech writing, > graphic design, and quality assurance. >=20 > All of these positions tend to be under-represented in the > free software world, at least among volunteer efforts. Good point.=20 We can try to find and convince the very few geek women out there for free software hardcore programming. But if we miss people in all the non-programming tasks, wouldn't be easier to find new types of contributors through these gateways? Documentation, marketing, web publishing, graphic design, journalism, project coordination, community management... are tasks that involve both women and men in the professional world. We have difficulties recruiting volunteers, any kind of volunteers, in these tasks and I think the reason is not some kind of gender or minority discrimination but, put simply, the predominant geek culture (which I bet some sociologist has already found out to be based mainly on male and western paradigms). It is probably good to promote geek-ism in those aspects of free software related to programming but... is it useful to promote it in the rest of tasks? I don't think so, unless we want to develop a desktop and a bunch applications successful between geeks only. I bet this geek culture is stopping many women from being interested in the free software phenomena (in fact I asked several computer-friendly women and this is the answer I got). Being myself not a programmer, it stopped me from finding a place to contribute until I learned to be geek-friendly. And this culture is still stopping many of my non-geek colleagues (both women and men) to come and give a hand. Ask your friends. =20 It is clear that women in general are happy investing their personal time in social activities without a monetary or even a clear benefit. Women have been key in any process of social change (even if their names don't appear in the history books). Have a look on social, non-commercial activities around the world and you will find women everywhere, many times challenging the gender percentages or simply having a clear superiority over men.=20 If we fail involving women (and other "majority" groups in other social, non-commercial organizations and activities) it's because something else, an the geek culture is in the top of the suspicious list. We can work making the geek paradigms more feminine or less gender-determined but changing a paradigm takes time and there is no manual for it. Working on less geek-ish gateways and environments for the non-programming tasks seems to be a more tangible challenge that can make a change in the short term. --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-CbFrQf4qX9tQSp9+ED3+ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEg9nqBEzHYk6x634RAqlJAJ4zANfndROsAmG+04Ii2MTuE6ocXACgvF4R FcFX4ebWv4xv6VK+G+wa1OI= =/nJ+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-CbFrQf4qX9tQSp9+ED3+-- From anne@oestergaard.nu Mon Jun 5 09:40:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 214FC3B08AB for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:40:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02988-06 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:40:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46C153B0874 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:40:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA90A245038 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:40:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id DC24D75034D for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:40:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 23250 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 13:40:22 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 13:40:22 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: foundation-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 15:40:21 +0200 Message-Id: <1149514822.4447.55.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.285 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.177, BAYES_40=-0.185, TW_PL=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -1.285 X-Spam-Level: Subject: The 3rd International GPLv3 Conference: Takes place in CCCB, Barcelona, Spain, June 22nd & 23rd X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:40:40 -0000 The 3rd International GPLv3 Conference: Takes place in CCCB, Barcelona, Spain, June 22nd & 23rd! The venue has now been confirmed as Aula 1, Centre de Cultura Contemporanea (CCCB).www.cccb.org/ Important information especially to those of you who are going to this years GUADEC and have not yet brought your traveling ticket and to all of you living near by. Just before GUADEC starts there is this very important conference taking place in Barcelona: The 3rd International GPLv3 Conference: CCCB, Barcelona, Spain, June 22nd & 23rd http://fsfeurope.org/projects/gplv3/europe-gplv3-conference It is very important to all GNOME and other developers of Free- and Open Source Software to follow closely and participate in the discussions on how we would like the final version of GPLv3 to be. This is not a matter for lawyers only but a vital question for everyone who has an interest in software freedom and how you make it possible to share and build upon the ideas of each other in order to get a more free, fair, ethic, and democratic international society. It is also vital for creating the best possible legal as well as technical environment and conditions for future innovation. Best regards Anne From anne@oestergaard.nu Mon Jun 5 09:42:10 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5315D3B08BA for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:42:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02993-10 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:42:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 549A53B086F for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:42:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user5.cybercity.dk (user5.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.51]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BB1724518C for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:42:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user5.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 341613A2411 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:42:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 23285 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 13:42:05 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 13:42:05 -0000 Dato: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 18:11:26 +0200 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: foundation-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 15:42:04 +0200 Message-Id: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.785 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.675, BAYES_05=-1.11] X-Spam-Score: -1.785 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:42:10 -0000 Hello all GNOME Foundation Members, About the size of the present board. The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño. Background: Not so long ago we had a Reducing Board Size Referendum "Should the board size be reduced from its current 11 directors to 7 directors?" The Referendum Results: 188 members voted for this referendum. The repartition of the votes is: yes (117 votes) no (70 votes) blank votes: 1 The board is at the moment of the opinion that a GNOME Board of 7 persons should normally work and be enough, provided that we have a staff person who can take part of the work load. Also at present a couple of the 7 board members have been given additional responsibilities at their ordinary work places and/or enlarged their family so they are pressed for time for "heavy" board work. Since the board has not yet hired anybody (we are in the process of doing so), the board would suggest to you that for the remaining of this year, we ask Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño to join the board. They are both happy and willing to join the board, but under the condition that there is not severe objections from the GNOME Foundation Members. I think that I need not tell you, that the two candidates in question are highly respected for their long time great contributions to the GNOME project and the GNOME community spirit. Being responsible for having proposed this temporary compromise solution, I naturally hope for your blessings. Please react within 10 days if you have problems with enlarging the board by inviting Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño to join the GNOME Board of Directors for the rest of 2006. Best wishes Anne From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Mon Jun 5 12:52:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C85B63B03D4 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 12:52:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15369-05 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 12:52:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 54F843B059A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 12:52:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 5 Jun 2006 17:52:10 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 17:52:09 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 16:52:14 -0000 On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Anne [ISO-8859-1] =D8stergaard wrote: > Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 15:42:04 +0200 > From: "Anne [ISO-8859-1] =D8stergaard" > To: foundation-list@gnome.org > Subject: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons > > Hello all GNOME Foundation Members, > > About the size of the present board. > > The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the > board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germ=C3=A1n Po=C3=B3-Caama=C3= =B1o. > > Background: > Not so long ago we had a Reducing Board Size Referendum > > "Should the board size be reduced from its current 11 directors to 7 > directors?" The way I always thought of the purpose of the referendum was that it should be possible - in fact it is a necessity - that others beyond the official board be involved in organising. The number of people on the board seems to be a symptom of the fact that it is difficult to get people involved and helping out with the foundation any other way. > The board is at the moment of the opinion that a GNOME Board of 7 > persons should normally work and be enough, provided that we have a > staff person who can take part of the work load. Being officially on the Gnome Foundation board is a nice way to provide more recognition for the people who work on behalf of Gnome but is it really necessary to give official titles to get people to help out in this way? (Perhaps it is, I'm assuming nothing at this point and I certainly dont want to discourage those who work to help keep the Gnome Foudnatoin organised.) Would a board of 15 people get huge amounts of work done, or would it hamper decision making? Could there be some kind of a secondary board, or council or committee or whatever you want to call it with a more fluid membership formed from those actively helping at any given time, requiring only a nomination from the board? That might give the flexibility required and provide another way to recognise all the work being done on our behalf. > They are both happy and willing to join the board, but under the > condition that there is not severe objections from the GNOME Foundation > Members. The way the referendum was written it did leave it open for the board to reexpand later at their own discretion. If you are really convinced it will help I wont make an issue of it but there might be a better way and you could take successful referendum as encouragement to think about it a little further if this is the best way to organise the board in the long run. --=20 Alan From baris@teamforce.name.tr Mon Jun 5 13:07:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 383823B0007 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:07:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16437-06 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:07:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nerd.com.tr (nerd.com.tr [69.60.117.115]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 473403B038A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:07:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nerd.com.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D19D784E6A; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:10:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nerd.com.tr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (nerd.com.tr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00433-08; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:10:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (unknown [81.213.157.51]) by nerd.com.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id F10EC784E68; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:10:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Baris Cicek To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-FNyi3F0n+O+x6eo3x6Zz" Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:07:03 +0300 Message-Id: <1149527224.2470.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 (2.6.1-1.fc5.2) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at nerd.com.tr X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.239 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.360, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.239 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 17:07:18 -0000 --=-FNyi3F0n+O+x6eo3x6Zz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anne you better also send this mail to foundation-announce because every foundation member might not be subscribed here, but they do to foundation-announce. Also I wonder why Board need to enlarge its size, but instead asking for help outside the board. Like delegating some work to groups and just stay as a decision maker? As a side note, as far as I remember the biggest argument for reducing board size is because it was harder to decide with too much noise in board, which made being in decision maker position harder. Isn't it better to get over this problem first, which next year's or later year's boards would suffer again, instead of temporary solutions On Mon, 2006-06-05 at 15:42 +0200, Anne =C3=98stergaard wrote: > Hello all GNOME Foundation Members, >=20 > About the size of the present board. >=20 > The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the > board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germ=C3=A1n Po=C3=B3-Caama=C3= =B1o.=20 >=20 > Background: > Not so long ago we had a Reducing Board Size Referendum >=20 > "Should the board size be reduced from its current 11 directors to 7 > directors?" =20 >=20 > The Referendum Results: >=20 > 188 members voted for this referendum. The repartition of the votes is:=20 >=20 > yes (117 votes) > no (70 votes) > blank votes: 1 >=20 >=20 > The board is at the moment of the opinion that a GNOME Board of 7 > persons should normally work and be enough, provided that we have a > staff person who can take part of the work load. >=20 > Also at present a couple of the 7 board members have been given > additional responsibilities at their ordinary work places and/or > enlarged their family so they are pressed for time for "heavy" board > work. >=20 > Since the board has not yet hired anybody (we are in the process of > doing so), the board would suggest to you that for the remaining of this > year, we ask Behdad Esfahbod and Germ=C3=A1n Po=C3=B3-Caama=C3=B1o to joi= n the board. >=20 > They are both happy and willing to join the board, but under the > condition that there is not severe objections from the GNOME Foundation > Members. >=20 > I think that I need not tell you, that the two candidates in question > are highly respected for their long time great contributions to the > GNOME project and the GNOME community spirit. >=20 > Being responsible for having proposed this temporary compromise > solution, I naturally hope for your blessings. >=20 > Please react within 10 days if you have problems with enlarging the > board by inviting Behdad Esfahbod and Germ=C3=A1n Po=C3=B3-Caama=C3=B1o t= o join the > GNOME Board of Directors for the rest of 2006. >=20 >=20 > Best wishes >=20 > Anne >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > foundation-list mailing list > foundation-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list --=-FNyi3F0n+O+x6eo3x6Zz Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEhGS362fLHU++kcURAuOQAKDH1XkUp5jJbQgoPaZQ7rYkLmIb8QCgy4nV 2JPZyV+MSHCcejDwfcLG4Ao= =B3LD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-FNyi3F0n+O+x6eo3x6Zz-- From ted@leary.csoft.net Mon Jun 5 13:09:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0E4F3B050E for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:09:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16633-04 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:08:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail63.csoft.net (mail63.csoft.net [205.205.214.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A7A9B3B01A1 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:08:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 21562 invoked by uid 1373); 5 Jun 2006 17:08:55 -0000 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 12:08:55 -0500 (EST) From: ted@gould.cx X-X-Sender: ted@leary2.csoft.net To: Alan Horkan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.638 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_REAL_NAME=0.961] X-Spam-Score: -1.638 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 17:09:00 -0000 Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Alan Horkan wrote: > The way I always thought of the purpose of the referendum was that it > should be possible - in fact it is a necessity - that others beyond the > official board be involved in organising. The number of people on the > board seems to be a symptom of the fact that it is difficult to get people > involved and helping out with the foundation any other way. I agree with Alan on this (and if you read the Inkscape list, you know that Alan and I don't agree that much :) If these people want to help out, and there are tasks that the board wishes to assign to them, that'd be great. And, I would consider "did X for the board" a great plus on any candidacy statement for the next election. But, they can't be members of the board without an election. --Ted From domlachowicz@gmail.com Mon Jun 5 13:21:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D69E23B08A1 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:21:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17259-02 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:21:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.197]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 413FF3B006C for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:21:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so1207436wxd for ; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:21:23 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=QDbgo9tjZO3vERpfPc6acQItV9f5RiD/en/qTooxz0+9N7z/Wh3n9xA7QUGtyedsQWgL8ZsAdGcAjmkWhWahcnp9Q/bEnckByLEaDsr9CzOSRAUwv6913Dsiu0tpMcnIlF9SduUdcophPsryyANBrCdSJUPAo5jt0+Cb0JFYTNQ= Received: by 10.70.27.12 with SMTP id a12mr6287613wxa; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:21:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.116.12 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 10:21:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:21:23 -0400 From: "Dominic Lachowicz" To: "ted@gould.cx" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.717 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.606, BAYES_05=-1.11, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.717 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 17:21:28 -0000 > Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > > Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. It doesn't seem to be entirely arbitrary. The 3 "appointees" were the next 3 highest vote-getters in the 2005 elections. http://foundation.gnome.org/vote/results.php?election_id=2 > candidacy statement for the next election. But, they can't be members of > the board without an election. The Foundation's charter apparently says (in at least two places) that they can appoint members without an election: http://foundation.gnome.org/about/charter/ "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows, subject to approval by the board or referendum of the membership." "Between elections, board vacancies or new board slots shall be filled by appointment by the board of directors." The charter is, of course, amendable via referendum. I like all of the people appointed and appreciate that they were all the next highest vote-getters in the 2005 election. They'd do a great job on the board. But I must admit, it feels a little strange that a third of the foundation's board would be appointed if this were to pass. Would it be preferable if instead some of the work were farmed out to willing volunteers, rather than expanding the board's size? Why should we prefer the board's size to grow rather than taking this proposed alternative? Best, Dom -- Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums. From newren@gmail.com Mon Jun 5 13:22:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB4663B0921 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:22:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17203-06 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:22:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.199]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 376D33B026A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:22:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so1207646wxd for ; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:22:30 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=OsYHaW/07fQqwe80q4hzPlzWBWo0iKC1ms5AzFCgOL01x90L/CgrtB8FAvc/B7jdgfR4E5+bwA16yZhyEdTV7ZJZMtPxfOiTfS7edcdCBqilBZ76ZpgPPXn6BHsl5GCmsCEr8VTwpyKYXgP2m1GRgJqWswUUblAS0gYfATQBWww= Received: by 10.70.71.12 with SMTP id t12mr6302640wxa; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.7 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 10:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51419b2c0606051022u66212d1at72d1a175728953b8@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 11:22:29 -0600 From: "Elijah Newren" To: "ted@gould.cx" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.567 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.033, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.567 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 17:22:34 -0000 On 6/5/06, ted@gould.cx wrote: > > Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > > Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. It doesn't look at all arbitrary to me. Behdad and German ran for the board last year and are the highest two vote receivers who aren't on the board. > > On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Alan Horkan wrote: > > The way I always thought of the purpose of the referendum was that it > > should be possible - in fact it is a necessity - that others beyond the > > official board be involved in organising. The number of people on the > > board seems to be a symptom of the fact that it is difficult to get people > > involved and helping out with the foundation any other way. > > I agree with Alan on this (and if you read the Inkscape list, you know > that Alan and I don't agree that much :) If these people want to help > out, and there are tasks that the board wishes to assign to them, that'd > be great. And, I would consider "did X for the board" a great plus on any > candidacy statement for the next election. But, they can't be members of > the board without an election. There may be reasons to object to this, but I disagree with this reasoning. There was an election. Besides -- what about the case where Luis resigned just recently? Your reasoning would say that he can't be replaced. Is that really what you're suggesting? From vuntz@gnome.org Mon Jun 5 14:45:25 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B49783B0A30 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:45:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22597-04 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:45:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fennas.vuntz.net (fennas.vuntz.net [82.228.182.88]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BB153B097F for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:45:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from latronche.vuntz.net (latronche.vuntz.net [10.0.0.7]) by fennas.vuntz.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4233811267D for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 20:45:23 +0200 (CEST) From: Vincent Untz To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:47:22 +0200 Message-Id: <1149533242.30799.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.56 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.039, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.56 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 18:45:25 -0000 Le lundi 05 juin 2006 à 13:21 -0400, Dominic Lachowicz a écrit : > > candidacy statement for the next election. But, they can't be members of > > the board without an election. > > The Foundation's charter apparently says (in at least two places) that > they can appoint members without an election: > > http://foundation.gnome.org/about/charter/ > > "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows, > subject to approval by the board or referendum of the membership." > > "Between elections, board vacancies or new board slots shall be filled > by appointment by the board of directors." > > The charter is, of course, amendable via referendum. Thanks Dom. I guess it's a good occasion to remind people to read the Foundation charter, especially if they are members of the Foundation :-) Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. From aguelzow@taliesin.ca Mon Jun 5 15:06:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2890B3B03AD for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:06:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23796-04 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:06:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.mail.interbaun.com (smtp01.mail.interbaun.com [199.185.130.39]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74DDC3B026A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:06:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 20591 invoked by uid 502); 5 Jun 2006 19:06:31 -0000 Received: from 226.207-229-35-0.interbaun.com (207.229.35.226) by smtp01.mail.interbaun.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 19:06:31 -0000 From: "Andreas J. Guelzow" To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Taliesin Software Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:05:38 -0600 Message-Id: <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:06:34 -0000 On Mon, 2006-05-06 at 13:21 -0400, Dominic Lachowicz wrote: > > Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > > > > Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > > everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. > > It doesn't seem to be entirely arbitrary. The 3 "appointees" were the > next 3 highest vote-getters in the 2005 elections. In other words, they lost the election. > > http://foundation.gnome.org/vote/results.php?election_id=2 > > > candidacy statement for the next election. But, they can't be members of > > the board without an election. > > The Foundation's charter apparently says (in at least two places) that > they can appoint members without an election: > > http://foundation.gnome.org/about/charter/ > > "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows, > subject to approval by the board or referendum of the membership." > > "Between elections, board vacancies or new board slots shall be filled > by appointment by the board of directors." This is different from temporarily appointing 2 additional members. Of course the board can add new seats, but they will then be permanent until (again?) removed via a referendum. Andreas -- Andreas J. Guelzow Pyrenean Shepherds From anne@oestergaard.nu Mon Jun 5 15:18:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CB5D3B07BB for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:18:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24554-02 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:18:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero1.cybercity.dk (cicero1.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92A023B077A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:18:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id D758763EE23 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:18:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 837677502C0 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:18:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 26566 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 19:18:19 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 19:18:19 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Alan Horkan In-Reply-To: References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:18:18 +0200 Message-Id: <1149535098.4447.95.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.529 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.070, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.529 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:18:36 -0000 man, 05 06 2006 kl. 17:52 +0100, skrev Alan Horkan: > On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Anne [ISO-8859-1] stergaard wrote: > > > Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 15:42:04 +0200 > > From: "Anne [ISO-8859-1] stergaard" > > To: foundation-list@gnome.org > > Subject: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons > > > > Hello all GNOME Foundation Members, > > > > About the size of the present board. > > > > The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the > > board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño. > > > > Background: > > Not so long ago we had a Reducing Board Size Referendum > > > > "Should the board size be reduced from its current 11 directors to 7 > > directors?" > > The way I always thought of the purpose of the referendum was that it > should be possible - in fact it is a necessity - that others beyond the > official board be involved in organising. The number of people on the > board seems to be a symptom of the fact that it is difficult to get people > involved and helping out with the foundation any other way. > > > The board is at the moment of the opinion that a GNOME Board of 7 > > persons should normally work and be enough, provided that we have a > > staff person who can take part of the work load. > > Being officially on the Gnome Foundation board is a nice way to provide > more recognition for the people who work on behalf of Gnome but is it > really necessary to give official titles to get people to help out in this > way? (Perhaps it is, I'm assuming nothing at this point and I certainly > dont want to discourage those who work to help keep the Gnome Foudnatoin > organised.) > > Would a board of 15 people get huge amounts of work done, or would it > hamper decision making? > > Could there be some kind of a secondary board, or council or committee or > whatever you want to call it with a more fluid membership formed from > those actively helping at any given time, requiring only a nomination from > reallythe board? That might give the flexibility required and provide another > way to recognise all the work being done on our behalf. I really think this is a good idea. We need to be better at delegating. But we get stuck when we talk about how it should be done in practice. However we have asked different members of our community for help and gotten it at several occasions, so I guess we are learning. Having a list of persons who has got time and energy to help prepare a case and make a recommendation to the board should make it so much easier for the board. I am all for that we let foundation members and even not yet foundation members sign up om a helpers Wiki page telling a little about which interests they have, how long they have been involved in the GNOME project, which kind of things they have helped out with before etc. But until we have found a proper form for how we delegate tasks I am afraid that we are short of heads and hands. Lets have an informal BoF at GUADEC on good delegation practice in GNOME. I am all for it. Anne From anne@oestergaard.nu Mon Jun 5 15:22:14 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80BEC3B038A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:22:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24742-05 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:22:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero1.cybercity.dk (cicero1.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 542403B00BE for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:22:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user3.cybercity.dk (user3.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.36]) by cicero1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36AC663E93E for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:22:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user3.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id E635293DC2 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:22:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 26602 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 19:22:10 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 19:22:10 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: ted@gould.cx In-Reply-To: References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:22:09 +0200 Message-Id: <1149535330.4447.101.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.53 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.069, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.53 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:22:14 -0000 man, 05 06 2006 kl. 12:08 -0500, skrev ted@gould.cx: > Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > > Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. OK these two persons were next on the list of persons who nearly made it to the board.(Only a few votes difference to those getting elected.) So it was not a random choice. Anne From ted@leary.csoft.net Mon Jun 5 15:35:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BF673B0947 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:35:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25691-08 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:35:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail63.csoft.net (mail63.csoft.net [205.205.214.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id ECAFE3B0668 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:35:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 4151 invoked by uid 1373); 5 Jun 2006 19:35:50 -0000 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:35:50 -0500 (EST) From: ted@gould.cx X-X-Sender: ted@leary2.csoft.net To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149535330.4447.101.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149535330.4447.101.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-2040552725-1149536150=:22433" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.638 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_REAL_NAME=0.961] X-Spam-Score: -1.638 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:35:57 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-2040552725-1149536150=:22433 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Anne =D8stergaard wrote: > man, 05 06 2006 kl. 12:08 -0500, skrev ted@gould.cx: >> Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) >> >> Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect >> everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. > > OK these two persons were next on the list of persons who nearly made it > to the board.(Only a few votes difference to those getting elected.) > > So it was not a random choice. Sorry, I didn't take the time to look at who you were suggesting. I still= =20 don't believe that the board should be adding members to itself without an= =20 election, whether they can or not. I think actions like that leave too=20 much room for cronyism in the future. As for getting people involved, perhaps posting to this list? I realize=20 it's hard to find tasks that someone might be able to pick up and do, but= =20 it is usually worthwhile in the end. Perhaps a "TODO" list on=20 live.gnome.org of things that the board is planning on doing, and will do,= =20 but if someone wants to beat them to it :) Perhaps something in the=20 meeting minutes? =09=09--Ted --0-2040552725-1149536150=:22433-- From anne@oestergaard.nu Mon Jun 5 15:40:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ADBC3B099D for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:40:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25830-05 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:40:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 986293B0947 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:40:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user4.cybercity.dk (user4.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.50]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 606272453B1 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:40:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user4.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 2483750391 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:40:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 26767 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 19:39:59 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 19:39:59 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Baris Cicek In-Reply-To: <1149527224.2470.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149527224.2470.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:39:59 +0200 Message-Id: <1149536399.4447.120.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.531 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.068, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.531 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:40:12 -0000 man, 05 06 2006 kl. 20:07 +0300, skrev Baris Cicek: > Anne you better also send this mail to foundation-announce because every > foundation member might not be subscribed here, but they do to > foundation-announce. I will do so. > Also I wonder why Board need to enlarge its size, but instead asking for > help outside the board. Like delegating some work to groups and just > stay as a decision maker? This is the way I would like to se things being delegated. I quite old and well proven way of doing it. > As a side note, as far as I remember the biggest argument for reducing > board size is because it was harder to decide with too much noise in > board, which made being in decision maker position harder. Isn't it > better to get over this problem first, which next year's or later year's > boards would suffer again, instead of temporary solutions We are in reality down to 5+ persons at times and this is not enough at the moment. We are getting the the Advisory Board more involved and the technical/or embedded devices group started so we are quite busy. If we do not get two more persons on the board, I think that we risk that the busy persons step down, and we will get the good new persons on board any way, but at the risk of loosing continuity and experience. It takes a little while before completely new board members get the feeling of how things are being done and which things must be taken care of first to get the business running. ( I am here talking of book keeping, accounting and financial insight and overview.) Anne From anne@oestergaard.nu Mon Jun 5 15:50:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 439B73B0952 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:50:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26247-10 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:50:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero1.cybercity.dk (cicero1.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63D3A3B058A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:50:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CDAC63F924 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:50:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id B2E0F750057 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:50:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 26992 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 19:50:38 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 19:50:38 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: ted@gould.cx In-Reply-To: References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149535330.4447.101.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:50:37 +0200 Message-Id: <1149537038.4447.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.531 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.068, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.531 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:50:49 -0000 man, 05 06 2006 kl. 14:35 -0500, skrev ted@gould.cx: > On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Anne stergaard wrote: > > man, 05 06 2006 kl. 12:08 -0500, skrev ted@gould.cx: > >> Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > >> > >> Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > >> everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. > > > > OK these two persons were next on the list of persons who nearly made it > > to the board.(Only a few votes difference to those getting elected.) > > > > So it was not a random choice. > > Sorry, I didn't take the time to look at who you were suggesting. I still > don't believe that the board should be adding members to itself without an > election, whether they can or not. I think actions like that leave too > much room for cronyism in the future. The problem is that it sometimes takes as long time to describe the tasks as simply doing them yourself. Also you have to check if people are doing what they said they would do and within reasonable time. You need to know people better in order to know if they just say yes and then forget all about it or they deliver if they have said they will. May be we should find a people and tasks manager. But this being said we all agree on the board that we shall delegate more and more tasks to the community because this is real important for the growth and continuity of our community. We are trying, Ted. Anne From dneary@free.fr Mon Jun 5 15:54:31 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C7B23B0011 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:54:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26894-05 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:54:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2-g19.free.fr (smtp2-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.28]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B8083B0012 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:54:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp2-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E624731A6; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:54:27 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:54:02 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060521) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Andreas J. Guelzow" References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> In-Reply-To: <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:54:31 -0000 Hi Andrew, Andreas J. Guelzow wrote: > On Mon, 2006-05-06 at 13:21 -0400, Dominic Lachowicz wrote: >> "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows, >> subject to approval by the board or referendum of the membership." >> >> "Between elections, board vacancies or new board slots shall be filled >> by appointment by the board of directors." > > This is different from temporarily appointing 2 additional members. Of > course the board can add new seats, but they will then be permanent > until (again?) removed via a referendum. No - the referendum last year was non-binding (as mentioned afterwards by Dom, I think). The board has the power to decide before the elections each year how many seats will be available. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From aguelzow@taliesin.ca Mon Jun 5 16:08:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DF1E3B0011 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:08:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27618-01 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:07:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp02.mail.interbaun.com (smtp02auth.mail.interbaun.com [199.185.130.52]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 19A263B0129 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:07:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 29676 invoked by uid 502); 5 Jun 2006 20:01:14 -0000 Received: from 226.207-229-35-0.interbaun.com (207.229.35.226) by smtp02.mail.interbaun.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 20:01:14 -0000 From: "Andreas J. Guelzow" To: Gnome Foundation In-Reply-To: <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Taliesin Software Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 14:00:22 -0600 Message-Id: <1149537622.6058.61.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:08:00 -0000 On Mon, 2006-05-06 at 21:54 +0200, David Neary wrote: > Hi Andrew, > > Andreas J. Guelzow wrote: > > On Mon, 2006-05-06 at 13:21 -0400, Dominic Lachowicz wrote: > >> "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows, > >> subject to approval by the board or referendum of the membership." > >> > >> "Between elections, board vacancies or new board slots shall be filled > >> by appointment by the board of directors." > > > > This is different from temporarily appointing 2 additional members. Of > > course the board can add new seats, but they will then be permanent > > until (again?) removed via a referendum. > > No - the referendum last year was non-binding (as mentioned afterwards > by Dom, I think). The board has the power to decide before the elections > each year how many seats will be available. So, the board can decide how many people it wants to have elected and then it can add an arbitrary number of additional members after the election. Why do we have elections in the first place? Of course "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows". Has trhe project really grown that significantly since the last election? Andreas From dneary@free.fr Mon Jun 5 16:09:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 971FF3B01AE for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:09:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27618-09 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:09:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp5-g19.free.fr (smtp5-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.35]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 864F73B002C for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:09:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp5-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB3212774B; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 22:09:28 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <44848F5A.3090300@free.fr> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 22:08:58 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060521) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ted@gould.cx References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149535330.4447.101.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:09:33 -0000 Hi, ted@gould.cx wrote: > As for getting people involved, perhaps posting to this list? I realize > it's hard to find tasks that someone might be able to pick up and do, > but it is usually worthwhile in the end. Perhaps a "TODO" list on > live.gnome.org of things that the board is planning on doing, and will > do, but if someone wants to beat them to it :) Perhaps something in the > meeting minutes? This point has come up a couple of times. Getting people onto the board (or at least onto board-list and on the conference calls) is useful, because a fair amount of what the board isn't doing well this year (primarily because we don't have an employee, it has to be said) is private, or requires a mandate. Things like lodging cheques or withdrawing money from the bank account, dealing with our accountant to get official forms or information on the foundation, invoicing companies for money, being aware of donations coming in and thanking donors (who potentially want to stay anonymous), things like that. There are many things that we could perhaps do more out in the open, and filtering our agendas and minutes better into public/private parts (as we started to do at the beginning of the year), posting them in a more regular and timely manner, and so on. All of those tasks take time, along with all of the other slack we've been picking up, and (as Anne pointed out) the changes in the personal and work lives of a few board members, distribution releases, births, job changes, travel with work and so on. But all the stuff that we're struggling with at the moment is kind of private stuff - which means having some kind of non-public inner circle of people - perhaps not on the board, but at least in some way engaged to respect board secrecy. Anything that we have been able to do in public (or avoid doing by delegating), we've been mostly doing. For what it's worth, I think most of our problems will go away once we have an employee, but back in October, I said that one reason why we shouldn't be afraid to reduce the number was because we would always have the possibility to increase it again if we realised we had made a mistake. I definitely thought that a few months ago, but when we had Zana as our admin, she not only caught up with the backlog, we had the impression that things were really moving forward. At the moment, we don't have 7 active, regularly answering their board mail board members. I think 6 active board members is probably enough to hold down the fort, if no important functions are missing, but we're more likely to have 6 or 7 active out of 9 than out of 7. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From dneary@free.fr Mon Jun 5 16:15:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40E3C3B002C for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:15:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28035-03 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:15:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1-g19.free.fr (smtp1-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.27]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 002103B0208 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:15:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp1-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2337A9AC97; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 22:14:59 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <448490A4.5070904@free.fr> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 22:14:28 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060521) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Andreas J. Guelzow" References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> <1149537622.6058.61.camel@localhost> In-Reply-To: <1149537622.6058.61.camel@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Gnome Foundation Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:15:03 -0000 Hi, Andreas J. Guelzow wrote: > So, the board can decide how many people it wants to have elected and > then it can add an arbitrary number of additional members after the > election. Why do we have elections in the first place? The board must have at least 7 people. Aside from that, your summary is correct. But then, we're supposed to trust our board members at election time - that's why we vote for them, isn't it? :) Seriously - the board will not abuse this, but co-opting members onto the board to handle workload is a common occurrence - as is setting up empowered sub-committees. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From newren@gmail.com Mon Jun 5 16:29:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6877C3B03EA for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:29:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29362-06 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.205]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FB293B06D7 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so1248330wxd for ; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:29:14 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=c0DI0gAqSXwHBKoFxTl2TtOdhohkR7RE11uhZPi32bUo3Db8eVQxiyFtijAYvj0mM1N8hFRyyMEejGtQxltidUZuBOYGPMXcRg7kfKRC/4YgSX/MXW3+uh+5JHFjOra8K4QYb3i+t2rdSQLUefDuiKH0Z/2TJU4kKbAWbjBlig8= Received: by 10.70.113.20 with SMTP id l20mr6543579wxc; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.7 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51419b2c0606051329p7c73e3a2p94a15b77e9cd5585@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:29:11 -0600 From: "Elijah Newren" To: "David Neary" In-Reply-To: <448490A4.5070904@free.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> <1149537622.6058.61.camel@localhost> <448490A4.5070904@free.fr> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.569 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.031, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.569 X-Spam-Level: Cc: "Andreas J. Guelzow" , Gnome Foundation Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:29:18 -0000 On 6/5/06, David Neary wrote: > > Hi, > > Andreas J. Guelzow wrote: > > So, the board can decide how many people it wants to have elected and > > then it can add an arbitrary number of additional members after the > > election. Why do we have elections in the first place? > > The board must have at least 7 people. Aside from that, your summary is > correct. But then, we're supposed to trust our board members at election > time - that's why we vote for them, isn't it? :) > > Seriously - the board will not abuse this, but co-opting members onto > the board to handle workload is a common occurrence - as is setting up > empowered sub-committees. Would the board lose anything by creating an empowered sub-committee here specifically consisting of Behdad and German? That would seem to quell most of the problems people have voiced against the proposal, and perhaps still allow all the same stuff to get done. I'm thinking here of the analogy to the release team -- the board formed the release-team (and still has oversight of it, if necessary), yet release-team members (assuming they are not also board members) have no board powers other than the release-team tasks they have been delegated to handle. I could be wrong, but judging from the comments so far, I believe that handles the delegation many people want to see. From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 5 18:42:02 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13AC73B03A0 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 18:42:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06160-02 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 18:42:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75B993B039F for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 18:42:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k55Mfwkk003546 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:41:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J0E00701RZ13Q@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for foundation-list@gnome.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 23:41:58 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-116-52.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.116.52]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J0E00E5MSDY03@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 23:41:58 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 00:08:39 +0100 From: Bill Haneman In-reply-to: <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> To: David Neary Message-id: <1149548919.12099.8.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: Cc: "Andreas J. Guelzow" , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 22:42:02 -0000 On Mon, 2006-06-05 at 20:54, David Neary wrote: > Hi Andrew,... > No - the referendum last year was non-binding (as mentioned afterwards > by Dom, I think). The board has the power to decide before the elections > each year how many seats will be available. Having only recently had a referendum on this (or at least a closely related issue, e.g. the size of the Board), I think that if the Board wants to retain the goodwill and trust of the electorate it should abide by the referendum results. A key argument in favor of the "reduce the size of the Board" referendum was that it would be accompanied by expanded delegation and the formation of subcommittees/action groups etc. to which tasks would be delegated by the Board. Let's do it! Bill > Cheers, > Dave. > > -- > Dave Neary > bolsh@gimp.org > Lyon, France > _______________________________________________ > foundation-list mailing list > foundation-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list From Glynn.Foster@Sun.COM Mon Jun 5 23:20:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A19F3B00AE for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 23:20:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19367-02 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 23:20:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 128553B00A2 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 23:20:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-06.sun.com (d1-emea-06.sun.com [192.18.2.116] (may be forged)) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k563Jxnp029303 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:19:59 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-06.sun.com by d1-emea-06.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0F0060154EH200@d1-emea-06.sun.com> (original mail from Glynn.Foster@Sun.COM) for foundation-list@gnome.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 04:19:59 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.18.42.16] by d1-emea-06.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0F004ED595ZZ20@d1-emea-06.sun.com>; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 04:19:58 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 15:23:21 +1200 From: Glynn Foster In-reply-to: <448490A4.5070904@free.fr> Sender: Glynn.Foster@Sun.COM To: David Neary Message-id: <4484F529.9010505@sun.com> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> <1149537622.6058.61.camel@localhost> <448490A4.5070904@free.fr> User-Agent: Mail/News 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060515) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.596 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.002, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.596 X-Spam-Level: Cc: "Andreas J. Guelzow" , Gnome Foundation Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 03:20:07 -0000 Hi, David Neary wrote: > Hi, > > Andreas J. Guelzow wrote: >> So, the board can decide how many people it wants to have elected and >> then it can add an arbitrary number of additional members after the >> election. Why do we have elections in the first place? > > The board must have at least 7 people. Aside from that, your summary is > correct. But then, we're supposed to trust our board members at election > time - that's why we vote for them, isn't it? :) > > Seriously - the board will not abuse this, but co-opting members onto > the board to handle workload is a common occurrence - as is setting up > empowered sub-committees. Will the new members have full voting rights on the board? I'm not sure I really mind either way given my previous experiences on the board, but I think we need to be careful about this since we're setting a precedent here. Glynn From james.henstridge@gmail.com Tue Jun 6 00:48:09 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 999093B007A for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 00:48:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22963-06 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 00:48:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.197]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE4EB3B0012 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 00:48:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so1343934wxd for ; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:48:07 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=s6W90tAFFMqbeF1zOA6cMOwf/4VT54VrjJ+T2QKnHBmd3wsR7fZ7AkQ83efEHduxKZMd4Wjbyv4ZlmUgVwusdTpfYGO4/1uQGQ9QGvp79F5CwIfJVkentnyjFKl4FNde0NN0q2W1cJ2Qogm71qV/5PMIAgV93neIPJUDMtvGjzc= Received: by 10.70.109.7 with SMTP id h7mr7003673wxc; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.60.15 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:48:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 12:48:06 +0800 From: "James Henstridge" Sender: james.henstridge@gmail.com To: "Dominic Lachowicz" In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 62eb23e7e8bd3462 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.582 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.582 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org, "ted@gould.cx" Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 04:48:09 -0000 On 06/06/06, Dominic Lachowicz wrote: > > Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > > > > Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > > everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. > > It doesn't seem to be entirely arbitrary. The 3 "appointees" were the > next 3 highest vote-getters in the 2005 elections. > > http://foundation.gnome.org/vote/results.php?election_id=2 Of course, the results of the elections may have been quite different if Luis didn't stand, and each member had two more votes to cover the additional seats. If this sort of thing is likely to happen again, it might be worth switching to a preferential voting system where we'd have all the information to see what the result would be if a candidate was removed or the number of seats increased. Dispite this, I am sure that Behdad and German would make good additions to the board. James. From jdub@waugh.id.au Tue Jun 6 01:12:02 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9CA63B0092 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:12:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24144-02 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:12:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69B643B0728 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:12:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (ppp121-112.static.internode.on.net [150.101.121.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F89C3C382 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:11:59 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 888F93F9C; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:11:54 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:11:54 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: Reply-By: Fri Jun 9 15:10:21 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 15:10:21 up 4 days, 15:02, 11 users, load average: 0.08, 0.08, 0.01 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.017, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 05:12:02 -0000 > But, they can't be members of the board without an election. Just want to point out that, yes, they can be - please read the Foundation by-laws. The board can change the size of the board at will, and nominate members at will. The referendum process was not done because it was necessary, it was done to understand the will of the membership (and delegate the decision to them). - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ "You gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, and know when to run." - Kenny Rogers, The Gambler From jdub@waugh.id.au Tue Jun 6 01:40:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8905F3B0018 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:40:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25374-02 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:40:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 428533B000D for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:40:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (ppp121-112.static.internode.on.net [150.101.121.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 571303C257 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:40:50 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 797943F9C; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:40:45 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:40:45 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060606054045.GM5138@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Reply-By: Fri Jun 9 15:13:53 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 15:13:53 up 4 days, 15:05, 11 users, load average: 0.09, 0.08, 0.02 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.017, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 05:40:54 -0000 > The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the > board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño. My personal opinion on this, as stated to the board: * We made our bed with the one-two-punch combination of change in board size and change in number of employees (currently zero). * Given that we delegated the decision regarding board size to the members and executed that change, it would be inappropriate only six or so months down the track to change it again. * The biggest problem right now (as I see it) is lack of board member time on the ground in Boston. We can distribute and delegate almost everything else effectively. This is impacting administration tasks and employment plans. * We are attempting to do big things without the benefit of having a face to face meeting. Every board so far has been more effective post-GUADEC, after they've had the opportunity to sit down, grind through the issues with a lot of social bandwidth and look each other up and down a bit. It really helps develop shared vision, shared values and shared trust in a way that mail, phone and IRC can't. - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ "The ability to procrastinate is what separates us from the machines." - Chris Gregory, Desktop Magazine From veillard@redhat.com Tue Jun 6 04:58:29 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E3D33B00ED for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25831-09 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [66.187.233.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D1023B00CB for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k568wKkC013649 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:20 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (devserv.devel.redhat.com [172.16.58.1]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k568wKR7017325 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:20 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k568wK9S021047 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:20 -0400 Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11/Submit) id k568wKOU021040 for foundation-list@gnome.org; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:20 -0400 Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:19 -0400 From: Daniel Veillard To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.367 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.003, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, TW_BX=0.077, TW_IB=0.077, TW_PM=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.367 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 08:58:29 -0000 On Tue, Jun 06, 2006 at 03:11:54PM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > > But, they can't be members of the board without an election. > > Just want to point out that, yes, they can be - please read the Foundation > by-laws. The board can change the size of the board at will, and nominate > members at will. Which is clearly a hole in the democratic process, the right thing to do would be to fix the bylaws, not jump on the loophole as a justification. > The referendum process was not done because it was necessary, it was done to > understand the will of the membership (and delegate the decision to them). And to stay in the spirit of that process you should have avoided this last step. Honnestly this look very weird from the outside, the board looks like contradicting itself on every occasion, provides no information about the day to day business (or I missed the minutes since the bunch posted for March), and the only thing which justify not working by delegation is that most of the operation need to be done in secrecy. That's honnestly not the kind of board process we expected when the bylaws were written, Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat http://redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Tue Jun 6 05:06:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46C313B09F1 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 05:06:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27265-04 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 05:06:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8E9D23B0A35 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 05:06:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 26140 invoked by uid 0); 6 Jun 2006 09:06:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.34]) (83.42.200.49) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 09:06:03 +0000 From: Quim Gil To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-W8w3n7YDvxZf85v0s8N9" Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 11:06:02 +0200 Message-Id: <1149584763.5220.69.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.083 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.439, BAYES_00=-2.599, TW_JR=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.083 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 09:06:34 -0000 --=-W8w3n7YDvxZf85v0s8N9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El dl 05 de 06 del 2006 a les 15:42 +0200, en/na Anne =C3=98stergaard va escriure: > The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the > board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germ=C3=A1n Po=C3=B3-Caama=C3= =B1o.=20 I wasn't in the board when this issue was discussed, and as a new board board I'm unsure what should I do now if I disagree. Transparency is always a good path, I guess.=20 - Consequent with the past Increasing now the board size seems inappropriate after the referendum discussions and result and without having made an extended use of asking explicitly for help and delegating within the GNOME community. - Size is not the problem We seem to agree that the problem is not the size of the board but the current circumstances that make many board members have less time than expected. If size is not the problem, the enlargement is probably not the solution. It's like having unsatisfactory sexual live and going to the doctor to enlarge your breast or your penis. At the beginning it might look like a change and a progress, but the root of the problem is still there, and possibly larger now. - Delegating and collaborating with people out of the board There was a lot of discussion about the few time required to be a good board member, let things happen, stay out of the way... We simply need to put in practice all that. For instance, invite someone to pick the Boston Yellow Pages, make some calls and come up with 3 companies we could hire for our accountancy and representation. Delegations like this might originate some crisis situations but since we are already in a crisis situation... what can we loose? And what can we learn. Adding 2 people to the board might be methadone to keep the problem of not sharing and delegating with less pain. - Too busy to delegate and hire We know the paradox of not having time to delegate or hire, making an overwhelming situation deeper. A solution is to stop the machine consciously (many times is already stopped, unconsciously) and concentrate in delegating. An intermediate option is simply do less things or not letting new tasks start before the delegation/hiring problem is solved. We missed something because of this? Yes, but how many thing are we missing by not delegating/hiring. - The quest of finding the magic full time profile =20 No wonder we didn't find the magic profile: a yin accountant & administrator + a yang fundraiser + based in Boston + competent and available + of course familiar with free software and GNOME (discussed at http://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/2006-April/msg00023.html ). = It is probably better and easier to hire the services of a mercenary busine= ss representation based in Boston + hiring one or more part time people we = know and trust, based wherever and able to travel when it's needed.=20 - Boston (Massachusetts, USA) It is a danger to have a board elected with candidates from everywhere that needs to have at least one member in a specific city: Boston. What if jrb wasn't elected, didn't want to renew or decides to leave some day? This is per se a reason to hire the services of a company (something theoretically more stable than an individual) and visit them every three months, either picking the Boston metro or a flight.=20 - Conclusion The board is overwhelmed and needs help. The fact that the board didn't share the discussion since the earliest stage but came up with a pre-conclusion is, I think, already a symptom of how overwhelmed the board members are and how far we all still are from opening the board and start sharing and delegating with the GNOME community. Many tasks the board can't delegate easily are related to services that can be hired. Let's concentrate on that, while we review publicly the list of priorities and see who can help on what inside / outside the board. Of course nothing of this has to do with the capabilities of Behdad and Germ=C3=A1n, who could be without doubt good board members. It has not to d= o either with the fact that I joined the board as a first patch for this problem. I had these opinions months ago, when I couldn't imagine I would join the board during this year. --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-W8w3n7YDvxZf85v0s8N9 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEhUV6BEzHYk6x634RAlOGAJ468PjA5ogEPfJt4Syb7QDks2mQzACcD/Dt 7SRSwIcbyQMxQ9z9jCLmlLE= =96/Y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-W8w3n7YDvxZf85v0s8N9-- From dneary@free.fr Tue Jun 6 06:16:02 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACD933B0A9E for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 06:16:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06395-09 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 06:16:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp6.wanadoo.fr (smtp6.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.25]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5360F3B0ACF for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 06:15:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf0606.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 398661C00282; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 12:15:12 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060606101512236.398661C00282@mwinf0606.orange.fr Message-ID: <448555B5.5030106@free.fr> Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:15:17 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Quim Gil References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149584763.5220.69.camel@localhost> In-Reply-To: <1149584763.5220.69.camel@localhost> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.54 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, TW_JR=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.54 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 10:16:03 -0000 Hi, Quim Gil wrote: > El dl 05 de 06 del 2006 a les 15:42 +0200, en/na Anne Østergaard va > escriure: > >> The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the >> board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño. > > I wasn't in the board when this issue was discussed, and as a new board > board I'm unsure what should I do now if I disagree. Transparency is > always a good path, I guess. Yes - just disagree. There is/was not unanimity on this point. As Jeff's said, he's against changing. Luis was also. I was the first one to propose increasing the board size in February when we were having trouble coping, but am now unsure, and was absent from the board meeting where it was discussed. > - Boston (Massachusetts, USA) > > It is a danger to have a board elected with candidates from everywhere > that needs to have at least one member in a specific city: Boston. What > if jrb wasn't elected, didn't want to renew or decides to leave some > day? This is per se a reason to hire the services of a company > (something theoretically more stable than an individual) and visit them > every three months, either picking the Boston metro or a flight. I'm unsure what the consequences would be for the foundation if none of the board was in or from the US. I'm not sure there would be any. The insistence on a Boston rep is more convenience than necessity - everyone knows how much more quickly things can go when you need something off someone, and you drop by to meet them face to face. Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From jdub@waugh.id.au Tue Jun 6 06:33:53 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE7743B00CF for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 06:33:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09584-02 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 06:33:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE51F3B0084 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 06:33:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (ppp121-112.static.internode.on.net [150.101.121.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9F223D876 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 20:33:50 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0FA6D3F9C; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 20:33:45 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 20:33:45 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> Reply-By: Fri Jun 9 20:19:56 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 20:19:57 up 4 days, 20:11, 10 users, load average: 0.04, 0.10, 0.03 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.017, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 10:33:53 -0000 > > Just want to point out that, yes, they can be - please read the > > Foundation by-laws. The board can change the size of the board at will, > > and nominate members at will. > > Which is clearly a hole in the democratic process, the right thing to do > would be to fix the bylaws, not jump on the loophole as a justification. Daniel, you misunderstand - I'm not here to justify the loophole, as I do not agree with the proposal in the first place! :-) There are a bunch of things I think we could fix in the bylaws (but I may feel that way simply because they are substantially different from the law and practices that I am used to in Australia). I do think the ability for the board to redefine its size at will is not appropriate. That said, the previous decision to reduce the board to seven members was discussed on the list and delegated to the membership - fully transparent. The board *absolutely* needs the ability to nominate members when a position is vacant. It should not require an election process to execute that - if the (elected) board is not trusted to fill vacant positions, then we have much bigger problems. Considering the current state of affairs, I think it's wholly appropriate that the board is nominating Quim Gil (next in line from previous election results) to fill the position left vacant by Luis' resignation, but I don't believe it's appropriate or necessary for the board to increase the number of directors (with or without referendum, but to answer your charges, mostly without) at this stage. > and the only thing which justify not working by delegation is that most of > the operation need to be done in secrecy. I don't believe anyone has cited 'secrecy', though the word 'private' has come up. Ultimately the workings and decision of the board is not secret at all, but there are activities that require a certain amount of privacy or sensitivity. The process of dealing with employees, and the handling of the accounts (handling, not reporting) are good examples. I don't think this is even remotely controversial - anyone who has participated in the running of a non-profit organisation (including you, Daniel) would be well aware of this kind of balancing. If the board is not appropriately reporting its activities, then any member should feel absolutely comfortable to ask questions and make demands. But I would ask that those questions and demands be specific and reasonable. :-) - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ "It's never been, 'We're doing this for the good of society.' It's always been us taking an intellectual pride in putting out a good product - and making money. If putting a computer on every desktop and in every home didn't make money, we wouldn't do it." - Microserfs From veillard@redhat.com Tue Jun 6 07:33:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 352943B00E0 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16106-09 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [66.187.233.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA3A63B00B4 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k56BXoEq003691 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:50 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (devserv.devel.redhat.com [172.16.58.1]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k56BXonQ013466 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:50 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k56BXo7G005351 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:50 -0400 Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11/Submit) id k56BXnfY005349 for foundation-list@gnome.org; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:49 -0400 Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:49 -0400 From: Daniel Veillard To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060606113349.GW16734@redhat.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.367 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.003, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, TW_BX=0.077, TW_IB=0.077, TW_PM=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.367 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 11:33:52 -0000 On Tue, Jun 06, 2006 at 08:33:45PM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > Considering the current state of affairs, I think it's wholly appropriate > that the board is nominating Quim Gil (next in line from previous election > results) to fill the position left vacant by Luis' resignation, but I don't yes, agreed, it's defining a new practice, but this sounds sane as long as that person is still okay with this. > believe it's appropriate or necessary for the board to increase the number > of directors (with or without referendum, but to answer your charges, mostly > without) at this stage. I can't juge on the 'necessary', but I think it's inappropriate too. > > and the only thing which justify not working by delegation is that most of > > the operation need to be done in secrecy. > > I don't believe anyone has cited 'secrecy', though the word 'private' has > come up. Ultimately the workings and decision of the board is not secret at > all, but there are activities that require a certain amount of privacy or > sensitivity. The process of dealing with employees, and the handling of the > accounts (handling, not reporting) are good examples. I don't think this is > even remotely controversial - anyone who has participated in the running of > a non-profit organisation (including you, Daniel) would be well aware of > this kind of balancing. To have balance one need one opposite side, a perceived one. Sure some details can't be shared, as you know I'm well aware of that, BUT I also always promoted being as public as possible with issues. Currently the board work is opaque, which would be fine if the few signals emitted were good, but 'we are overhelmed we need to reverse to some extend a voted decision' is not a good signal. > If the board is not appropriately reporting its activities, then any member The board is not reporting its activities in a timely fashion. > should feel absolutely comfortable to ask questions and make demands. But I > would ask that those questions and demands be specific and reasonable. :-) Okay, what happen at the board meetings since March, time of last published minutes I could find. I assume it's reasonable request to at least know if you are meeting, and what are the problems/questions you are facing with the details you can share. It then helps getting a sense of how much work need to be done you can't cope with and hence how necessary increasing the board size again really is. I hope my reaction can be understood, and my request not unreasonnable, but really that request should not need to be done, this should be normal process, Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat http://redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From dneary@free.fr Tue Jun 6 08:04:29 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5E283B0141 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:04:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19256-08 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:04:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp9.wanadoo.fr (smtp9.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D9443B008B for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:04:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf0904.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 495E2240019C; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:04:26 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060606120426300.495E2240019C@mwinf0904.orange.fr Message-ID: <44856F50.4000402@free.fr> Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 14:04:32 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: veillard@redhat.com References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606113349.GW16734@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: <20060606113349.GW16734@redhat.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Board meetings since March (was: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:04:30 -0000 Hi, Daniel Veillard wrote: > Okay, what happen at the board meetings since March, time of last published > minutes I could find. I assume it's reasonable request to at least know if > you are meeting, and what are the problems/questions you are facing with > the details you can share. It then helps getting a sense of how much work > need to be done you can't cope with and hence how necessary increasing the > board size again really is. We met on the following dates since the beginning of March: March 1st (minutes sent to foundation-list) March 15th (minutes sent to foundation-list) March 22nd (minutes sent to foundation-list) April 5th April 26th May 17th We also had 2 advisory board meetings (but minutes from those have typically not gone to foundation-list): April 12th May 31st There was a scheduled meeting on the 10th of May which was canceled because of technical problems. The next board meeting is scheduled for tomorrow, June 7th. The minutes for the April 5th and May 17th meetings need to be sanitised for board private issues and sent to the list. We didn't have any phone call for the April 26th meeting, and so the only minutes we have are an IRC log, which again needs to be summarised and sanitised for board privacy issues. The agendas for all meetings should also be reviewed for privacy and confidentiality issues, and sent to the list. I've been sending the agendas to board-list 48 hours before the meeting for comments, and preparing a private/public agenda in the wiki and for the mailing list has proved more effort than I have available for that, and I must admit that it hasn't been a high priority. As an ex board member, you have read-only access to the board wiki pages - would you like to take on this task and help me out? Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From murrayc@murrayc.com Tue Jun 6 08:23:16 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 061193B0186 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:23:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20602-02 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:23:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail3.sd.dreamhost.com (webmail3.sd.dreamhost.com [64.111.100.15]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BC2E3B00B4 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:23:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.murrayc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by webmail3.sd.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E13A714179; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 05:23:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 194.138.18.132 (proxying for unknown) (SquirrelMail authenticated user murrayc@murrayc.com) by webmail.murrayc.com with HTTP; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:23:12 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <60481.194.138.18.132.1149596592.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> In-Reply-To: <44856F50.4000402@free.fr> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606113349.GW16734@redhat.com> <44856F50.4000402@free.fr> Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:23:12 +0200 (CEST) From: "Murray Cumming" To: "Dave Neary" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.548 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.051, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.548 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, veillard@redhat.com Subject: Re: Board meetings since March (was: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:23:16 -0000 > > Hi, > > Daniel Veillard wrote: >> Okay, what happen at the board meetings since March, time of last >> published >> minutes I could find. I assume it's reasonable request to at least know >> if >> you are meeting, and what are the problems/questions you are facing with >> the details you can share. It then helps getting a sense of how much >> work >> need to be done you can't cope with and hence how necessary increasing >> the >> board size again really is. > > We met on the following dates since the beginning of March: > > March 1st (minutes sent to foundation-list) > March 15th (minutes sent to foundation-list) > March 22nd (minutes sent to foundation-list) > April 5th > April 26th > May 17th It really makes life easier if these are added to the list here: http://live.gnome.org/FoundationBoardPublic#head-6903d3d78a8eb091678548773e79000fb5c10292 (Although it doesn't need to be a board member that does that. I blame me.) > We also had 2 advisory board meetings (but minutes from those have > typically not gone to foundation-list): > April 12th > May 31st > > There was a scheduled meeting on the 10th of May which was canceled > because of technical problems. The next board meeting is scheduled for > tomorrow, June 7th. > > The minutes for the April 5th and May 17th meetings need to be sanitised > for board private issues and sent to the list. We didn't have any phone > call for the April 26th meeting, and so the only minutes we have are an > IRC log, which again needs to be summarised and sanitised for board > privacy issues. The agendas for all meetings should also be reviewed for > privacy and confidentiality issues, and sent to the list. > > I've been sending the agendas to board-list 48 hours before the meeting > for comments, and preparing a private/public agenda in the wiki and for > the mailing list has proved more effort than I have available for that, > and I must admit that it hasn't been a high priority. > > As an ex board member, you have read-only access to the board wiki pages > - would you like to take on this task and help me out? I believe everyone has write access to the public pages. Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From veillard@redhat.com Tue Jun 6 08:59:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EE633B00CF for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22495-08 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [66.187.233.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50D123B00B9 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k56Cxdju004443; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:39 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (devserv.devel.redhat.com [172.16.58.1]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k56CxdoC031823; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:39 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k56Cxdrh011349; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:39 -0400 Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11/Submit) id k56Cxdaq011347; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:39 -0400 Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:39 -0400 From: Daniel Veillard To: Dave Neary Message-ID: <20060606125938.GX16734@redhat.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606113349.GW16734@redhat.com> <44856F50.4000402@free.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <44856F50.4000402@free.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.367 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.003, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, TW_BX=0.077, TW_IB=0.077, TW_PM=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.367 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Board meetings since March (was: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:59:45 -0000 On Tue, Jun 06, 2006 at 02:04:32PM +0200, Dave Neary wrote: > The minutes for the April 5th and May 17th meetings need to be sanitised > for board private issues and sent to the list. We didn't have any phone It takes 2 months ? News from 2 months ago are usually not that useful. > call for the April 26th meeting, and so the only minutes we have are an > IRC log, which again needs to be summarised and sanitised for board > privacy issues. The agendas for all meetings should also be reviewed for > privacy and confidentiality issues, and sent to the list. You don't need the agenda to be sent, if you send the minutes in a timely fashion, then people can react if you forgot something. > I've been sending the agendas to board-list 48 hours before the meeting That's nice, but board only, not public awareness, that should make writing minutes even easier. > for comments, and preparing a private/public agenda in the wiki and for > the mailing list has proved more effort than I have available for that, > and I must admit that it hasn't been a high priority. Stuff in the wiki has no persistance, contrary to mail archive, requires web access, and polling or page subscription to monitor state changes. > As an ex board member, you have read-only access to the board wiki pages > - would you like to take on this task and help me out? I don't have much time either, and I disagree with using the Wiki as the way to reach out the community. I think you're not in a very good position to state there isn't enough cycles to run those kind of task, I argued that going from 11 to 7 would be a serious problem, and it's not a matter of having a paid person to do them, the board ought to have the cycles to push the minutes from meeting in a timely fashion delegating this can just lead to more delays and less accuracy. It takes 20, 30mn at worse to edit and post minutes, every 2 weeks. If people on the board don't have that kind of time to offer, then it's a real problem, the only other option would be if current board people didn't think board minutes are important, but in that case they should be frank about this and state it I would not expect or request them. Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat http://redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From dneary@free.fr Tue Jun 6 09:43:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DE4A3B012C for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 09:43:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25372-04 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 09:43:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 642B23B00AB for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 09:43:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf1101.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 3E3B11C0004D; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:43:03 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060606134303255.3E3B11C0004D@mwinf1101.orange.fr Message-ID: <4485866C.5080903@free.fr> Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 15:43:08 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: veillard@redhat.com References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606113349.GW16734@redhat.com> <44856F50.4000402@free.fr> <20060606125938.GX16734@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: <20060606125938.GX16734@redhat.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Board meetings since March X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 13:43:07 -0000 Hi, Daniel Veillard wrote: > On Tue, Jun 06, 2006 at 02:04:32PM +0200, Dave Neary wrote: >> As an ex board member, you have read-only access to the board wiki pages >> - would you like to take on this task and help me out? > > I don't have much time either, and I disagree with using the Wiki as the > way to reach out the community. The private board pages are as good a way as any to prepare an agenda and allow people to edit it easily. Taking that information and splitting it into public/private parts and sending it onto a mailing list is the task I was thinking of. > I think you're not in a very good position to state there isn't enough cycles > to run those kind of task, I argued that going from 11 to 7 would be a serious > problem, and it's not a matter of having a paid person to do them, the board > ought to have the cycles to push the minutes from meeting in a timely fashion > delegating this can just lead to more delays and less accuracy. It takes 20, > 30mn at worse to edit and post minutes, every 2 weeks. If people on the > board don't have that kind of time to offer, then it's a real problem, the > only other option would be if current board people didn't think board minutes > are important, but in that case they should be frank about this and state it > I would not expect or request them. Of course this task is important, and of course one person can take care of it in under an hour after each meeting (half an hour to tidy up notes, and half an hour to take into consideration comments and mail to the list a couple of days later). As I said, the breakage is happening between the preparation of the minutes (which are happening in a timely manner, usually straight after the meeting) and the sending of public minutes to foundation-list a couple of days later. You always did a great job sending out the public minutes. This year, we have not done as good a job. But there is no way I'm saying that increasing the size of the board will help us do a better job - sending minutes out is, and has always been, the job of the secretary - it's not really something that can be shared unless he/she asks someone else to take care of it, or is absent from a meeting. Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From murrayc@murrayc.com Tue Jun 6 16:17:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD4943B0236 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 16:17:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19265-05 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 16:17:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swarthymail-a4.dreamhost.com (mailbigip.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.5]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0753D3B0B04 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 16:17:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from noname (p5497CD77.dip.t-dialin.net [84.151.205.119]) by swarthymail-a4.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92901129A8C; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 13:17:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Murray Cumming To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 22:17:51 +0200 Message-Id: <1149625071.6086.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.06 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.341, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_NJABL_PROXY=0.721, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SOCKS=2.159] X-Spam-Score: -1.06 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 20:17:57 -0000 Here's a positive reply, just so you don't think it's all negative. I'll never figure out how to request a representative sample of replies while also avoiding too many replies. I trust the board to do this and to know if they need to do it, and I have confidence in the proposed new members. I'd prefer delegation, but even the act of delegation requires suitable chunks of time that they might not have right now. If they can't do that quickly then they need to get on and do this now. I supported the reduced-size referendum because I think the board needs to make faster decisions instead of pondering every possibility until the chances have gone by. So well done. If I could set a condition for my Yes, it would be that the new board members would obsessively care for the Foundation's public wiki pages and keep people informed of possible meetings agendas and minutes of completed meetings. You do quite a lot and people should know about it. You might even start referring to not-public-yet agenda items by codenames if necessary, just so we have an idea of how much you are working on. -- Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From murrayc@murrayc.com Wed Jun 7 15:43:39 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBDAC3B01E8 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 15:43:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09531-04 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 15:43:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swarthymail-a1.dreamhost.com (mailbigip.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.5]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AD613B01BA for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 15:43:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from noname (p5497CB1E.dip.t-dialin.net [84.151.203.30]) by swarthymail-a1.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C133D8FE77; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 12:43:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Murray Cumming To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149170374.6894.73.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <1149170374.6894.73.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 21:43:33 +0200 Message-Id: <1149709413.5916.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.98 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.395, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.558, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.456] X-Spam-Score: -0.98 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 19:43:40 -0000 On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 15:59 +0200, Anne Østergaard wrote: > > > Realistically, this plans needs to be written by you. Others will > help you > > > with it, but you need to create it and drive it. [snip] > I will work with the whole of the women in FLOSS community as well as > with the persons who wrote the FLOSSPOLS reports and others who have > written scientific reports and with those of you who are interested. Thanks, Anne. I look forward to reading your suggestions. -- Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From dneary@free.fr Thu Jun 8 17:35:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E6BD3B05F8 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 17:35:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07181-03 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 17:35:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp3-g19.free.fr (smtp3-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.29]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A4A23B000E for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 17:35:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp3-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D47949075; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 23:35:36 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <44889604.7000405@free.fr> Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:26:28 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060521) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alan Cox References: <1147629160.44676e6870cb6@imp1-g19.free.fr> <1147699940.26686.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1147699539.4468815380ca5@imp1-g19.free.fr> <1147702053.26686.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <1147702053.26686.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------040605040600010104040604" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Boilerplate trademark agreement for commercial exploitation X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 21:35:40 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040605040600010104040604 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I was under the impression that I had sent this to the list a long time ago, but I can't find it in the archives, so here, for archival purposes, is the merchandising trademark agreement in .odt - all comments, as usual, are welcome. I'll take the opportunity to thank Dom Lachowitz, who has agreed to take over maintaining the document - I bow to his superior knowledge, and thank him very much for reminding us last week that we should be delegating more ;-) Cheers, Dave. Alan Cox wrote: > On Llu, 2006-05-15 at 15:25 +0200, Dave Neary wrote: >> I can certainly post a copy in ODT later in the week which gets converted into >> .doc every time we need to go to the lawyers... I won't always have the time to >> do it promptly, though. >> >> I will note that there are several high-quality free software programmes that >> can read and write the bits of the .doc format which are important for lawyers. > > > - There are open standards, and GNOME is an open standards based body > - A ".doc" file may render in many different ways, especialy if it > contains macros. Which is definitive, the contract as rendered by MS > Word or by Abiword or by OpenOffice ? > > Alan > > > -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France --------------040605040600010104040604 Content-Type: application/vnd.oasis.opendocument.text; name="GNOME merchandising contract.odt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="GNOME merchandising contract.odt" UEsDBBQAAAAAAMCpyDRexjIMJwAAACcAAAAIAAAAbWltZXR5cGVhcHBsaWNhdGlvbi92bmQu b2FzaXMub3BlbmRvY3VtZW50LnRleHRQSwMEFAAAAAAAwKnINAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABoAAABD b25maWd1cmF0aW9uczIvc3RhdHVzYmFyL1BLAwQUAAgACADAqcg0AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAJwAA AENvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb25zMi9hY2NlbGVyYXRvci9jdXJyZW50LnhtbAMAUEsHCAAAAAACAAAA AAAAAFBLAwQUAAAAAADAqcg0AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGAAAAENvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb25zMi9mbG9h dGVyL1BLAwQUAAAAAADAqcg0AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGgAAAENvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb25zMi9wb3B1 cG1lbnUvUEsDBBQAAAAAAMCpyDQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAcAAAAQ29uZmlndXJhdGlvbnMyL3By b2dyZXNzYmFyL1BLAwQUAAAAAADAqcg0AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGAAAAENvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb25z 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[127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD6B93B031B for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 18:56:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10924-10 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 18:56:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 297323B0450 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 18:56:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 18926 invoked from network); 8 Jun 2006 22:56:39 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?164.99.120.169?) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 8 Jun 2006 22:56:39 -0000 From: Federico Mena Quintero To: foundation-list@gnome.org, GNOME Foundation Board Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 17:52:27 -0500 Message-Id: <1149807147.30645.105.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.645 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.905, BAYES_20=-0.74] X-Spam-Score: -1.645 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Required: Administrator for the Foundation X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 22:56:44 -0000 Hi, The GNOME Foundation is in need of a part-time administrator based in the USA. Our administrator will: 1. Collect, sort and summarise mail for the Board. 2. Handle bills in a timely manner. 3. Prepare checks for the Board to sign. 4. Track donations and fees. 5. Maintain a list of Board contacts. 6. Send out Friends of GNOME gifts to donors. 7. Keep the boards files in order, and sending expenses (when appropriate) to the accountant. 8. Handle the purchase and preparation of materials for tradeshows. 9. Attend board meetings bi-weekly as appropriate, and prepare status updates. 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. 11. There is no number 11. Proximity to Boston, MA is very desirable, though not mandatory. Please send your CV/resume in plain text to board-list@gnome.org. Federico From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Thu Jun 8 19:27:43 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E05373B019F for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 19:27:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12544-06 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 19:27:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7D04E3B03EC for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 19:27:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 11101 invoked by uid 0); 8 Jun 2006 23:27:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.34]) (83.55.174.28) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:27:37 +0000 From: Quim Gil To: Federico Mena Quintero In-Reply-To: <1149807147.30645.105.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> References: <1149807147.30645.105.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-g90YM+JWhOUtDEnlibmx" Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 01:27:36 +0200 Message-Id: <1149809257.5200.57.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=1.200, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:27:43 -0000 --=-g90YM+JWhOUtDEnlibmx Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Help the board (and the whole GNOME Foundation) spreading this profile or this link: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/2006-June/msg00077.html It is crystal clear that the board members will be much alleviated the day we have an efficient administrator in control of all the numbers and legal stuff.=20 El dj 08 de 06 del 2006 a les 17:52 -0500, en/na Federico Mena Quintero va escriure: > Hi, >=20 > The GNOME Foundation is in need of a part-time administrator based in > the USA. Our administrator will: >=20 > 1. Collect, sort and summarise mail for the Board. > 2. Handle bills in a timely manner. > 3. Prepare checks for the Board to sign. > 4. Track donations and fees. > 5. Maintain a list of Board contacts. > 6. Send out Friends of GNOME gifts to donors. > 7. Keep the boards files in order, and sending expenses (when=20 > appropriate) to the accountant. > 8. Handle the purchase and preparation of materials for tradeshows. > 9. Attend board meetings bi-weekly as appropriate, and prepare=20 > status updates. > 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. > 11. There is no number 11. >=20 > Proximity to Boston, MA is very desirable, though not mandatory. >=20 > Please send your CV/resume in plain text to board-list@gnome.org. >=20 > Federico >=20 > _______________________________________________ > foundation-list mailing list > foundation-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list >=20 --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-g90YM+JWhOUtDEnlibmx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEiLJoBEzHYk6x634RArJ6AJsGvNjgobbIa1GuEtIGYilkVS3pngCgrcR4 DwICtONuTn7adRgOQx5v+mo= =dz/Q -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-g90YM+JWhOUtDEnlibmx-- From anne@oestergaard.nu Fri Jun 9 06:20:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC9133B0099 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 06:20:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14331-03 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 06:20:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero0.cybercity.dk (cicero0.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.52]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22ECE3B0093 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 06:20:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero0.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC255678493 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 12:20:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 6AA8774F9A5 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 12:20:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 24532 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 10:20:46 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 10:20:46 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Federico Mena Quintero In-Reply-To: <1149807147.30645.105.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> References: <1149807147.30645.105.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 12:20:45 +0200 Message-Id: <1149848445.4453.36.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.538 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.061, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.538 X-Spam-Level: Cc: GNOME Foundation Board , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 10:20:54 -0000 tor, 08 06 2006 kl. 17:52 -0500, skrev Federico Mena Quintero: > Hi, > > The GNOME Foundation is in need of a part-time administrator based in > the USA. Our administrator will: > > 1. Collect, sort and summarise mail for the Board. > 2. Handle bills in a timely manner. > 3. Prepare checks for the Board to sign. > 4. Track donations and fees. > 5. Maintain a list of Board contacts. > 6. Send out Friends of GNOME gifts to donors. > 7. Keep the boards files in order, and sending expenses (when > appropriate) to the accountant. > 8. Handle the purchase and preparation of materials for tradeshows. > 9. Attend board meetings bi-weekly as appropriate, and prepare > status updates. > 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. > 11. There is no number 11. > > Proximity to Boston, MA is very desirable, though not mandatory. > > Please send your CV/resume in plain text to board-list@gnome.org. Don't forget to send a coverletter that explains why you qualify for this position. Anne From anne@oestergaard.nu Fri Jun 9 09:33:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70A3E3B029F for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 09:33:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27640-06 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 09:33:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F2963B0003 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 09:33:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user3.cybercity.dk (user3.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.36]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id F411F245C35 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 15:33:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user3.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id CAC1C93E3E for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 15:33:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 26273 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 13:33:41 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 13:33:41 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 15:33:39 +0200 Message-Id: <1149860019.4453.144.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.539 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.060, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.539 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 13:33:45 -0000 man, 05 06 2006 kl. 15:42 +0200, skrev Anne Østergaard: > Hello all GNOME Foundation Members, > > About the size of the present board. > > The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the > board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño. > > Background: > Not so long ago we had a Reducing Board Size Referendum > > "Should the board size be reduced from its current 11 directors to 7 > directors?" > > The Referendum Results: > > 188 members voted for this referendum. The repartition of the votes is: > > yes (117 votes) > no (70 votes) > blank votes: 1 > > > The board is at the moment of the opinion that a GNOME Board of 7 > persons should normally work and be enough, provided that we have a > staff person who can take part of the work load. > > Also at present a couple of the 7 board members have been given > additional responsibilities at their ordinary work places and/or > enlarged their family so they are pressed for time for "heavy" board > work. > > Since the board has not yet hired anybody (we are in the process of > doing so), the board would suggest to you that for the remaining of this > year, we ask Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño to join the board. > > They are both happy and willing to join the board, but under the > condition that there is not severe objections from the GNOME Foundation > Members. > > I think that I need not tell you, that the two candidates in question > are highly respected for their long time great contributions to the > GNOME project and the GNOME community spirit. > > Being responsible for having proposed this temporary compromise > solution, I naturally hope for your blessings. > > Please react within 10 days if you have problems with enlarging the > board by inviting Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño to join the > GNOME Board of Directors for the rest of 2006. > I think I made a mistake by only asking those having a problem with a temporary enlargement of the board till the end of the year. As we have not heard from the members would think this was quite acceptable, the result of the consultation would tend to be negative. This is logic. Should the board conclude that the community is against- or do we have lots of members who says yes or stay neutral? Please let's have your reaction before June 11th. Best wishes Anne PS The board is putting great efforts into delegating tasks as we know that there are many members eager to give a hand. In fact we almost always get a yes when we ask. From federico@ximian.com Fri Jun 9 10:42:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3F2C3B10A5 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 10:42:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31714-09 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 10:42:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E2953B0290 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 10:42:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 19596 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 14:42:29 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO 164-99-120-73.boston.ximian.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 14:42:29 -0000 From: Federico Mena Quintero To: foundation-list@gnome.org, foundation-announce@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 09:38:17 -0500 Message-Id: <1149863897.3733.5.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Questions for deployments of GNOME X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 14:42:33 -0000 Are you a deployment of GNOME? Are you like the City of Largo, Florida, or like the districts of Extremadura and Andalucía in Spain, who have big installations of machines running GNOME? At the GNOME Foundation we are conducting a little, informal study of how we can make your lives easier. If you are in charge of the technical part of a GNOME deployment, we would greatly appreciate it if you could answer the questions here: http://primates.ximian.com/~federico/news-2006-06.html#questions-for-deployments Please mail your replies to federico@gnu.org. A summary of the replies will be published during GUADEC this year. Thank you! Federico From domlachowicz@gmail.com Fri Jun 9 11:31:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BFA23B0222 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:31:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02652-02 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:31:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.207]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 965CA3B0290 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:31:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so654060wxd for ; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 08:31:53 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ZlrLXpqL60K1jk8gw3EPmgUEmZUs7iRuScIMEJ15le+bAITYJXZ6VK5qOBdKr99XGsf9iHLtP1cLzAAAAcHKc0zZ+AP0nnOQt8DqXZ/7MjFh/QeEqr33wBOS/t9ZUxPURaKYN9lUQHsv4APUxHzLnEa0GI+xJCtCeppE+Dy7OUg= Received: by 10.70.73.15 with SMTP id v15mr3606926wxa; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 08:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.116.12 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 08:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2672cf4d0606090831h34982de3u16db61e5308242ec@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:31:53 -0400 From: "Dominic Lachowicz" To: "=?UTF-8?Q?Anne_=C3=98stergaard?=" In-Reply-To: <1149860019.4453.144.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149860019.4453.144.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.351 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_BASE64_NO_NAME=0.224, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.351 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 15:31:56 -0000 SGkgQW5uZSwKCj4gPiBJIHRoaW5rIHRoYXQgSSBuZWVkIG5vdCB0ZWxsIHlvdSwgdGhhdCB0aGUg dHdvIGNhbmRpZGF0ZXMgaW4gcXVlc3Rpb24KPiA+IGFyZSBoaWdobHkgcmVzcGVjdGVkIGZvciB0 aGVpciBsb25nIHRpbWUgZ3JlYXQgY29udHJpYnV0aW9ucyB0byB0aGUKPiA+IEdOT01FIHByb2pl Y3QgYW5kIHRoZSBHTk9NRSBjb21tdW5pdHkgc3Bpcml0Lgo+ID4KPiA+IEJlaW5nIHJlc3BvbnNp YmxlIGZvciBoYXZpbmcgcHJvcG9zZWQgdGhpcyB0ZW1wb3JhcnkgY29tcHJvbWlzZQo+ID4gc29s dXRpb24sIEkgbmF0dXJhbGx5IGhvcGUgZm9yIHlvdXIgYmxlc3NpbmdzLgo+ID4KPiA+IFBsZWFz ZSByZWFjdCB3aXRoaW4gMTAgZGF5cyBpZiB5b3UgaGF2ZSBwcm9ibGVtcyB3aXRoIGVubGFyZ2lu ZyB0aGUKPiA+IGJvYXJkIGJ5IGludml0aW5nIEJlaGRhZCBFc2ZhaGJvZCBhbmQgR2VybcOhbiBQ b8OzLUNhYW1hw7FvIHRvIGpvaW4gdGhlCj4gPiBHTk9NRSBCb2FyZCBvZiBEaXJlY3RvcnMgZm9y IHRoZSByZXN0IG9mIDIwMDYuCgpbc25pcF0KCj4gUFMgVGhlIGJvYXJkIGlzIHB1dHRpbmcgZ3Jl YXQgZWZmb3J0cyBpbnRvIGRlbGVnYXRpbmcgdGFza3MgYXMgd2Uga25vdwo+IHRoYXQgdGhlcmUg YXJlIG1hbnkgbWVtYmVycyBlYWdlciB0byBnaXZlIGEgaGFuZC4gSW4gZmFjdCB3ZSBhbG1vc3QK PiBhbHdheXMgZ2V0IGEgeWVzIHdoZW4gd2UgYXNrLgoKSSBhcHByZWNpYXRlIHRoZSBib2FyZCdz IGVmZm9ydHMsIGhhcmQgd29yaywgYW5kIGRlZGljYXRpb24uIEkgYXBwbGF1ZAp0aGUgYm9hcmQn cyByZWNlbnQgcmVzb2x2ZSB0byBkZWxlZ2F0ZSBtb3JlIHRoaW5ncywgaW5jbHVkaW5nCmRlbGVn YXRpbmcgdGhlIFRNIGRvY3VtZW50IHRvIG1lLiBJIGhvcGUgbm90IHRvIGRpc2FwcG9pbnQgeW91 LgoKSG93ZXZlciwgSSBzdGlsbCBoYXZlbid0IGhlYXJkIGEgZ29vZCBleHBsYW5hdGlvbiBhcyB0 byAqd2h5KiB0aGUKYm9hcmQgbmVlZHMgbW9yZSBtZW1iZXJzIHRvIGZ1bGZpbGwgaXRzIGR1dGll cy4gT3Igd2h5IDIgaXMgdGhlIG1hZ2ljCm51bWJlci4gT3Igd2h5IHRoZSBuZXcgcG9zaXRpb25z IHdvdWxkIG9ubHkgYmUgdGVtcG9yYXJ5LiBXaGF0CnByb2JsZW1zIGlzIHRoZSBib2FyZCBmYWNp bmcgdGhhdCBjYW5ub3QgYmUgaGFuZGxlZCBieSB0aGUgY3VycmVudAptZW1iZXJzIHBsdXMgZGVs ZWdhdGlvbiBhcyBhcHByb3ByaWF0ZT8gT3IgaWYgY2VydGFpbiBtZW1iZXJzIGNhbid0Cm1lZXQg dGhlaXIgb2JsaWdhdGlvbnMgZHVlIHRvIG91dHNpZGUgb3IgZnV0dXJlIGNvbW1pdHRtZW50cyAo YXMgd2FzCkx1aXMnIGNhc2UgcmVjZW50bHkpIC0gb3Zlci1xdWFsaWZpZWQgYW5kIHBhc3Npb25h dGUgYXMgdGhleSBhcmUgLSAgaXMKdGhlIGNvcnJlY3Qgc29sdXRpb24gdG8gcmVzaWduIGFuZCBs ZXQgb3RoZXIgcGVvcGxlIHJlcGxhY2UgdGhlbT8KCkluIG15IG9waW5pb24sIHlvdSd2ZSBhc2tl ZCB1cyB0byB2b2ljZSBhbiBvcGluaW9uIHdpdGhvdXQgcHJlc2VudGluZwppbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBu ZWNlc3NhcnkgdG8gZm9ybWluZyBhIHF1YWxpZmllZCBvcGluaW9uLiBUaGlzIGlzIG1hZGUKZXZl biBtb3JlIGRpZmZpY3VsdCAoSU1PLCBvZiBjb3Vyc2UpIHNpbmNlIG5vIGJvYXJkIG1lZXRpbmcg bWludXRlcwpoYXZlIGJlZW4gcmVsZWFzZWQgc2luY2UgTWFyY2ggMjIsIHdoaWNoIGlzIGZhc3Qg YXBwcm9hY2hpbmcgMyBtb250aHMKYWdvLgoKSSBkb24ndCBrbm93IGFsbCBvZiB0aGUgcHJvYmxl bXMgZmFjaW5nIHRoZSBib2FyZC4gSSdtIG5vdCBzdXJlIHRoYXQKSSdtIGVudGl0bGVkIHRvIGtu b3cgdGhlbS4gQnV0IGZyb20gd2hhdCBsaXR0bGUgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24gSSBoYXZlLCBJCmNhbid0 IGhlbHAgYnV0IGZlZWwgdGhhdCB0aGUgYm9hcmQgaGFzIGdvdHRlbiBtb3JlIG9wYXF1ZSBhbmQK b3ZlcndvcmtlZCBzaW5jZSBpdHMgcmVjZW50IHJlZHVjdGlvbiB0byA3IG1lbWJlcnMuIChGb3Ig dGhlIHJlY29yZCwgSQpzdGlsbCBkaXNsaWtlIHRoYXQgbm8gZ29vZCBhcmd1bWVudCB3YXMgbWFk ZSB0aGVuIGFzIHRvIHdoYXQgcHJvYmxlbXMKdGhlIHByZXZpb3VzIGJvYXJkIHdhcyBmYWNpbmcs IGFuZCB3aHkgZ2V0dGluZyByaWQgb2YgNCBwZW9wbGUgd291bGQKaGF2ZSBzb2x2ZWQgdGhvc2Ug cHJvYmxlbXMuIElNSE8sIGhpc3Rvcnkgbm93IHJlcGVhdHMgaXRzZWxmLikKCklmIGFkZGluZyAy IG1vcmUgbWVtYmVycyB3aWxsIGhlbHAgc29sdmUgdGhlIGJvYXJkJ3MgcHJvYmxlbXMgaW4gd2F5 cwp0aGF0IGRlbGVnYXRpb24gb3IgYXR0cml0aW9uIGFsb25lIGNhbid0LCB0aGVuIGdyZWF0LiBM ZXQncyBkbyBpdC4gQnV0CnBsZWFzZSwgbWFrZSBhbiBhcmd1bWVudCBpbiB0aGUgbmV4dCAzIGRh eXMgYXMgdG8gd2h5IGFkZGluZyB0aGVzZQpwZW9wbGUgd2lsbCBoZWxwIHNvbHZlIHRoZSBwcm9i bGVtLgoKQmVzdCwKRG9tCi0tIApDb3VudGluZyBib2RpZXMgbGlrZSBzaGVlcCB0byB0aGUgcmh5 dGhtIG9mIHRoZSB3YXIgZHJ1bXMuCg== From dneary@free.fr Fri Jun 9 16:48:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29F733B01F6 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:48:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19379-08 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:48:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1-g19.free.fr (smtp1-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.27]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 128893B11A4 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:48:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp1-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BCEA9ABB8 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 22:48:13 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4489DB7A.6090102@free.fr> Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 22:35:06 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060521) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Foundation-List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Draft agenda for foundation AGM during GUADEC X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 20:48:45 -0000 Hi, We will be holding a GNOME Foundation general meeting during GUADEC on Tuesday June 27th, at 14h. The agenda will be pretty basic - we will present what the board has been working on and will work on for the rest of the year, get a report on our finances from the treasurer, and have a Q&A session for the rest of the time available. The meeting is for foundation members - so please, if there are things you feel we should concentrate on, reply here with suggestions for additions, or for subjects which you consider important. The AGM is our way to communicate directly to the membership what everyone's been doing for the foundation and for the community. We won't be limiting ourselves to board activities - sinceone of the core tasks of the board is to be aware of what's going on around the foundation, and co-ordinate people when there is common interest. Cheers, Dave. Agenda ====== 1. Chairman's report Presentation of the board, and overview of the foundation's activities since last GUADEC. I will be handing off the conch to other board members for particular topics. 2. Treasurer's report The state of the finances - how much money we have, what we've spent money on, and what we plan to do with the rest. 3. Ongoing projects and their status 4. Questions & Answers -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From danw@novell.com Fri Jun 9 17:04:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 132FA3B01AB for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:04:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20767-04 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:04:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B2E43B00FE for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:04:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 20109 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 21:04:39 -0000 Received: from outbound.ximian.com (HELO ?164.99.121.40?) (danw@130.57.170.250) by peabody.ximian.com with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 21:04:39 -0000 Message-ID: <4489E254.1070900@novell.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 17:04:20 -0400 From: Dan Winship User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20060317) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606054045.GM5138@waugh.id.au> In-Reply-To: <20060606054045.GM5138@waugh.id.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.734 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.824, BAYES_05=-1.11, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2] X-Spam-Score: -1.734 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 21:04:45 -0000 Jeff Waugh wrote: > * We are attempting to do big things without the benefit of having a face > to face meeting. Every board so far has been more effective post-GUADEC, > after they've had the opportunity to sit down, grind through the issues > with a lot of social bandwidth and look each other up and down a bit. It > really helps develop shared vision, shared values and shared trust in a > way that mail, phone and IRC can't. Should we shift the election cycle by a few months then, so that GUADEC falls near the start of the new board's term, rather than halfway through? -- Dan From rml@novell.com Fri Jun 9 17:23:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7FCA3B02C9 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:23:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21648-01 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:23:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 900583B0256 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:23:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 20159 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 21:23:16 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO betsy.boston.ximian.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 21:23:16 -0000 From: Robert Love To: Dan Winship In-Reply-To: <4489E254.1070900@novell.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606054045.GM5138@waugh.id.au> <4489E254.1070900@novell.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 17:23:32 -0400 Message-Id: <1149888212.31757.191.camel@betsy.boston.ximian.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.482 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.083, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2] X-Spam-Score: -2.482 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 21:23:18 -0000 On Fri, 2006-06-09 at 17:04 -0400, Dan Winship wrote: > Should we shift the election cycle by a few months then, so that GUADEC > falls near the start of the new board's term, rather than halfway through? I am pretty sure that cheetah's don't have teeth, but I could be way off on that one. Robert Love From rml@novell.com Fri Jun 9 17:26:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9FF33B02D1 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:26:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21629-06 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:26:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C92C23B02C9 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:26:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 20164 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 21:26:14 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO betsy.boston.ximian.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 21:26:14 -0000 From: Robert Love To: Dan Winship In-Reply-To: <1149888212.31757.191.camel@betsy.boston.ximian.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606054045.GM5138@waugh.id.au> <4489E254.1070900@novell.com> <1149888212.31757.191.camel@betsy.boston.ximian.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 17:26:29 -0400 Message-Id: <1149888389.31757.193.camel@betsy.boston.ximian.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.482 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.083, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2] X-Spam-Score: -2.482 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 21:26:19 -0000 On Fri, 2006-06-09 at 17:23 -0400, Robert Love wrote: > On Fri, 2006-06-09 at 17:04 -0400, Dan Winship wrote: > > > Should we shift the election cycle by a few months then, so that GUADEC > > falls near the start of the new board's term, rather than halfway through? > > I am pretty sure that cheetah's don't have teeth, but I could be way off > on that one. There is a definite bug in Evolution. Robert Love From anne@oestergaard.nu Fri Jun 9 18:41:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3E513B0353 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 18:41:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25560-09 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 18:41:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 379E33B0101 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 18:41:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user4.cybercity.dk (user4.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.50]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2FD2245263 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 00:41:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user4.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 464415045D for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 00:41:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 1264 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 22:41:17 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 22:41:17 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: David Neary In-Reply-To: <4489DB7A.6090102@free.fr> References: <4489DB7A.6090102@free.fr> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 00:41:16 +0200 Message-Id: <1149892876.4453.220.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.539 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.060, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.539 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Foundation-List Subject: Re: Draft agenda for foundation AGM during GUADEC X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 22:41:33 -0000 fre, 09 06 2006 kl. 22:35 +0200, skrev David Neary: > Hi, > > We will be holding a GNOME Foundation general meeting during GUADEC on > Tuesday June 27th, at 14h. > > The agenda will be pretty basic - we will present what the board has > been working on and will work on for the rest of the year, get a report > on our finances from the treasurer, and have a Q&A session for the rest > of the time available. > > The meeting is for foundation members - so please, if there are things > you feel we should concentrate on, reply here with suggestions for > additions, or for subjects which you consider important. > > The AGM is our way to communicate directly to the membership what > everyone's been doing for the foundation and for the community. We won't > be limiting ourselves to board activities - sinceone of the core tasks since one > of the board is to be aware of what's going on around the foundation, > and co-ordinate people when there is common interest. > > Cheers, > Dave. > > Agenda > ====== > > 1. Chairman's report > > Presentation of the board, and overview of the foundation's activities > since last GUADEC. I will be handing off the conch to other board > members for particular topics. > > 2. Treasurer's report > > The state of the finances - how much money we have, what we've spent > money on, and what we plan to do with the rest. > > 3. Ongoing projects and their status > > 4. Questions & Answers Looks fine to me. Thanks Dave. Anne From jdub@waugh.id.au Sat Jun 10 03:27:16 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D9D63B021F for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 03:27:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15839-04 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 03:27:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A4FE3B01B7 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 03:27:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (ppp121-112.static.internode.on.net [150.101.121.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27C473C362 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:27:12 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6E7653F55; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:27:03 +1000 (EST) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:27:03 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060610072703.GG5138@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606054045.GM5138@waugh.id.au> <4489E254.1070900@novell.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <4489E254.1070900@novell.com> Reply-By: Tue Jun 13 16:55:45 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 16:55:45 up 8 days, 16:47, 10 users, load average: 0.06, 0.09, 0.03 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.448 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.448 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 07:27:16 -0000 > Jeff Waugh wrote: > > * We are attempting to do big things without the benefit of having a > > face to face meeting. Every board so far has been more effective > > post-GUADEC, after they've had the opportunity to sit down, grind > > through the issues with a lot of social bandwidth and look each other > > up and down a bit. It really helps develop shared vision, shared values > > and shared trust in a way that mail, phone and IRC can't. > > Should we shift the election cycle by a few months then, so that GUADEC > falls near the start of the new board's term, rather than halfway through? I'd like to, and proposed it during my previous term, but it wasn't pursued (probably a combination of my year off, other important structural changes going on, and indecision about how to kick it off - delay the elections by five months or shift them ahead by four?). Aiming for elections in May would probably be best - I'll add this to the board agenda, thanks! - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ "Trying to get a PC to analyse one of the most abstract forms of language - the poem - is like trying to drill for oil with a banana." - The Register From aguelzow@pyrshep.ca Mon Jun 5 14:59:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EAD83B0A25 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:59:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23291-09 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:59:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.mail.interbaun.com (smtp01.mail.interbaun.com [199.185.130.39]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEF373B09D1 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:59:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 14439 invoked by uid 502); 5 Jun 2006 18:59:31 -0000 Received: from 226.207-229-35-0.interbaun.com (207.229.35.226) by smtp01.mail.interbaun.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 18:59:31 -0000 From: "Andreas J. Guelzow" To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 12:58:39 -0600 Message-Id: <1149533919.6058.5.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 16:16:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 18:59:45 -0000 On Mon, 2006-05-06 at 13:21 -0400, Dominic Lachowicz wrote: > > Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > > > > Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > > everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. > > It doesn't seem to be entirely arbitrary. The 3 "appointees" were the > next 3 highest vote-getters in the 2005 elections. In other words, they lost the election. > > http://foundation.gnome.org/vote/results.php?election_id=2 > > > candidacy statement for the next election. But, they can't be members of > > the board without an election. > > The Foundation's charter apparently says (in at least two places) that > they can appoint members without an election: > > http://foundation.gnome.org/about/charter/ > > "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows, > subject to approval by the board or referendum of the membership." > > "Between elections, board vacancies or new board slots shall be filled > by appointment by the board of directors." This is different from temporarily appointing 2 additional members. Of course the board can add new seats, but they will then be permanent until (again?) removed via a referendum. Andreas From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Sat Jun 10 19:23:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F2583B0250 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:23:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31888-05 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:23:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5649B3B00BE for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:23:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 25487 invoked by uid 0); 10 Jun 2006 23:03:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.33]) (83.55.171.219) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:03:01 +0000 From: Quim Gil To: Dominic Lachowicz In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606090831h34982de3u16db61e5308242ec@mail.gmail.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149860019.4453.144.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606090831h34982de3u16db61e5308242ec@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-KTaz04E3pQ5RiXxb3JWq" Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 01:03:01 +0200 Message-Id: <1149980581.5208.64.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.421 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=1.178, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -1.421 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:23:34 -0000 --=-KTaz04E3pQ5RiXxb3JWq Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Dom, El dv 09 de 06 del 2006 a les 11:31 -0400, en/na Dominic Lachowicz va escriure: > What > problems is the board facing that cannot be handled by the current > members plus delegation as appropriate? This is a good question (the other ones as well, but at least I can say something about this one). In the board meeting of last Wednesday we discussed possible and easy to implement ways to improve the communication and collaboration between the board and people willing to have a higher implication and participation in foundation/board tasks.=20 Good communication eases collaboration, and good collaboration eases trust. Trust is the root of many problems of delegation: sharing or delegating a private task to someone you trust and collaborate takes 5 minutes (ok, maybe more). The same action without regular communication-collaboration-trust takes more time, and risk. Jeff is preparing a proposal. I just wanted to provide some informal and personal feedback so you don't think that the board is keeping the temporary enlargement as the only or primary option to consider. > IMHO, history now repeats itself.) Another interesting point, that brings an issue... In our current setting it is very unlikely that the current board is going to criticize openly something specific about the last board. I believe the way the board is mounted and unmounted every year makes difficult to make (self)criticism openly. It's not like one party losing an election and a new party coming in (system that has its defects but at least assures criticism and review of the past actions). This is not something unique to the GNOME Foundation, this is a problem intrinsic in any organization voting for individuals that suddenly need to work as a compact team, and then be renewed quite often (like once a year). The problem is clearer when some individuals repeat, and some come in for the first time. Maybe a solution would be that the team leaving the board makes not only a meeting with the new board members, but also a last internal meeting to write up a public report of which things went well and why, and which things went bad and why. And/or a summary of the same questions answered individually by each board member. Hackers know that documenting is the best way to avoid known mistakes. --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-KTaz04E3pQ5RiXxb3JWq Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEi0+kBEzHYk6x634RAqbeAJ9KM9xYm0T4wGYCpXUQewmeO2aZMgCeL2F/ 880R+hSnd79e/n/kwcLeFpg= =HToh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-KTaz04E3pQ5RiXxb3JWq-- From dneary@free.fr Mon Jun 12 03:55:04 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BAE23B00D4 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 03:55:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24556-10 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 03:54:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp12.wanadoo.fr (smtp12.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.20]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32A523B0186 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 03:54:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf1201.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 2B0571C00089; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 09:54:39 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060612075439176.2B0571C00089@mwinf1201.orange.fr Message-ID: <448D1DCC.7090102@free.fr> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 09:54:52 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Neary References: <4489DB7A.6090102@free.fr> In-Reply-To: <4489DB7A.6090102@free.fr> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Foundation-List Subject: Re: Draft agenda for foundation AGM during GUADEC X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 07:55:04 -0000 Hi, David Neary wrote: > The agenda will be pretty basic - we will present what the board has > been working on and will work on for the rest of the year, get a report > on our finances from the treasurer, and have a Q&A session for the rest > of the time available. Following on from feedback, a partial list of the various initiatives and projects we'll be including is below: > Agenda > ====== > > 1. Chairman's report > > Presentation of the board, and overview of the foundation's activities > since last GUADEC. I will be handing off the conch to other board > members for particular topics. * Documentation contract * Public service * Foundation administrator role * Google SoC * Foundation organised/funded Conferences * Conference presence - EclipseCon, LinuxWorld, FOSDEM, linux.conf.au, ... * Event boxes * Communication & promotion > 2. Treasurer's report > > The state of the finances - how much money we have, what we've spent > money on, and what we plan to do with the rest. > > 3. Ongoing projects and their status * Web site redesign * Trademark agreements * Executive director * Merchandising (dormant) > 4. Questions & Answers Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From federico@ximian.com Mon Jun 12 11:55:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEDC73B009D for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:55:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09055-01 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:55:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB46E3B0078 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:55:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 21660 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2006 15:52:35 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?192.168.1.101?) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 12 Jun 2006 15:52:35 -0000 From: Federico Mena Quintero To: foundation-list@gnome.org, foundation-announce-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 10:48:18 -0500 Message-Id: <1150127298.17566.47.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Minutes of the Board meeting, 2006/Apr/05 X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:55:13 -0000 Dusting out the drawer of old minutes... GNOME Foundation Board Meeting, 2006/04/05 ========================================== Attendance: Dave (Chairing, minutes) Vincent Luis Jonathan Rosanna Jeff (0:10) Regrets: Anne Missing: Federico Actions: Luis to mail boston-social@gnome.org to look for volunteers to represent us at Boston Usenix and Boston LWE - DONE! Dave to be our liaison with marketing-list to set up the basic structure of the new www.gnome.org - ongoing Dave to request a contract from Quim for GUADEC - ongoing. We expect something by Easter. Federico to mail advisory-board-list about what members would like to obtain from the Foundation. - We'll pick it up at the meeting. Jeff to write a proposal for the technical project meeting. - ongoing. Jeff describes Ghosts of past Conferences. Something we should do for GUADEC. Luis to send mail RE LWE/Usenix: done GUADEC meetings - Deciding dates & times for advisory board and board meetings Board meeting before and Advisory after is a good idea. -Dave: We should split up the all-day board meeting so we don't wear out. -Advisory board is on Thursday, June 29th Advisory board - Preparing the meeting - Need an agenda - luis: Should we keep it to a single agenda? - bolsh: Want to turn it into something where they go to them frequently - jeff: turn it into a long term agenda Action: Get Advisory board rep for RH -Done: Gerry Riveros is representing Advisory Board fees - -We're going to go to a January billing period. Prorate people. No one has been billed yet. Axis Informática wanting to sell products with the GNOME logo (see Rodrigo's mail) -Reuse the german contract for this group (initially) -Turn it into a generic TM agreemark that people can use -Action: Contact lawyers to make sure our generic contract can work. Federico From federico@ximian.com Mon Jun 12 11:56:06 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0BB33B009D for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:56:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08921-07 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:56:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69BDF3B0010 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:56:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 21665 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2006 15:54:57 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?192.168.1.101?) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 12 Jun 2006 15:54:57 -0000 From: Federico Mena Quintero To: foundation-list@gnome.org, foundation-announce-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 10:50:41 -0500 Message-Id: <1150127441.17566.48.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Minutes of the Board meeting, 2006/Apr/26 X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:56:06 -0000 GNOME Foundation Board Meeting, 2006/04/26 ========================================== Attendance: =========== Dave Neary (Chairing, minutes) Luis Villa Anne Oestergaard Vincent Untz Jeff Waugh Missing: ======== Jonathan Blandford (arrived :50) Federico Mena Quintero Actions ======= * Dave to request a contract from Quim for GUADEC - ongoing * Jeff to write a proposal for the technical project meeting - outside scope of the board * Dave to resurrect German contract from last year so that we can use it for Axis Informática - ongoing (sent to foundation-list for round of feedback) New actions =========== ACTION: Announce US event box & contents (Vincent) ACTION: Announce final shortlist of GUADEC 07 candidates (Anne) ACTION: Dave to get feedback off Dom on the old contract, and mail the result on to foundation list ACTION: Anne to contact Tim for the name of the lawyer who worked on the agreement last year Agenda: ======= 1. Administrator * Process for hiring full-time executive director * Refine job description, and talk about the profile we're looking for We would like to hire an executive director to develop business strategy and manage our relationships with commercial and non-profit partners. We're going to take the time to hire the right person. We also need to make sure basic administration and accounting are taken care of in a timely fashion. We can continue to hire a part time administrator or out-source office services. It was agreed that outsourcing in the Boston area, where our lawyers and accountants are located, makes sense. 2. Summer of Code * Let's make sure GNOME does better (from an organisational point of view) this time Vincent and Behdad took care of organising GNOME for this. 3. GUADEC 2007 - declare list of candidates Candidates to be proposed publically on foundation-list for a public comments period. 4. Decision for the US event box (Carried on mailing list: no discussion needed) -- Federico Mena Quintero From federico@ximian.com Mon Jun 12 12:01:35 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CA2A3B008A for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 12:01:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09149-02 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 12:01:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6C8B3B0100 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 12:00:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 21670 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2006 15:59:08 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?192.168.1.101?) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 12 Jun 2006 15:59:08 -0000 From: Federico Mena Quintero To: foundation-list@gnome.org, foundation-announce-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 10:54:52 -0500 Message-Id: <1150127692.17566.50.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Minutes of the Board meeting, 2006/May/17 X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 16:01:35 -0000 GNOME Foundation Board Meeting, 2006/05/17 ========================================== Attendance: Anne Federico (minutes) Jonathan Vincent No attendance: Dave (regrets) Luis (regrets) Jeff We started the meeting on IRC since there was trouble with the phone access code. JRB came in later, fixed our code, and we started the phone meeting around 45 minutes after the IRC one. PREVIOUS ACTIONS ================ * Dave to ask Dom to refine/reduce the German contract: DONE, RFC gone to foundation-list * Anne to announce final list of GUADEC 2007 candidates: DONE. * Vincent to announce North American event box: DONE. * Luis to find out which lawyer we worked with on the contract revisions last year: NOT DONE. * JRB to get quotes for back-office services, via Owen: NOT DONE. * Jeff to send Embedded agenda to board list: NOT DONE. NEW ACTIONS =========== * Luis to find out which lawyer we worked with on the contract revisions last year (carried over from previous actions). * JRB to get quotes for back-office services, via Owen (carried over from previous actions). * Jeff and Vincent to send Embedded agenda to board list (carried over from previous actions). * Federico to send a draft job announcement to board-list for the executive director and the administrator. * Federico to write an agenda for the next Advisory Board meeting, to take place on May 31st. [Taken up by Dave] * JRB to mail board-list about invoicing Intel (hard disk crash). * JRB to send an update on what hardware has been bought for the event box. * Quim to contact HP and Novell about sponsorship for GUADEC. * Federico to mail Quim/Behdad/Germán about replacing Luis. AGENDA ====== * Invoicing GUADEC sponsors & advisory board members - Pending paperwork. * Handling conference finances - need to ask Dave about mailing Quim. * Buying stuff for the event box - how, when, what, who - need volunteers. * Financial situation - no change. * Merchandising contract - it has gone to foundation-list. * GUADEC - no update. * Ad board - we're due another meeting, it's been a month. How about in a fortnight? (UPDATE: a fortnight from now) Yes, it will be on May 31st. Federico to send an agenda and announcement. * GUADEC 2007 - It would be nice to have a public request for comments period. (UPDATE: Anne has said she'll take care of this). It's in foundation-list now. * Administrator - type of person we want, process for getting the hire going, the usual. We need to start moving forward on that, seriously. We need a full-time person working for us. No quotes for outsourcing yet. From federico@ximian.com Mon Jun 12 13:57:30 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3C333B0943 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 13:57:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21275-07 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 13:57:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 949C23B0150 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 12:07:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 21703 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2006 16:06:26 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?192.168.1.101?) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 12 Jun 2006 16:06:26 -0000 From: Federico Mena Quintero To: foundation-list@gnome.org, foundation-announce@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:02:10 -0500 Message-Id: <1150128130.17566.52.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Minutes of the Board meeting, 2006/Jun/07 X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 17:57:30 -0000 GNOME Foundation Board Meeting, 2006/06/07 ========================================== Attendance: Anne Dave Federico Jeff Jonathan Quim (welcome, Quim!) No attendance: Vincent (regrets) PREVIOUS ACTIONS ================ PUBLIC: * Dave to request a contract from Quim for GUADEC: IN PROGRESS. Quim is taking care of this. * Dave to resurrect German contract from last year so that we can use it for Axis Informática. IN PROGRESS. Needs to go to the lawyer. * Jeff to write a proposal for the technical project meeting: IN PROGRESS * Federico to send a draft job announcement to board-list for the executive director and the administrator: NOT DONE * Federico to write an agenda for the next Advisory Board meeting, to take place on May 31st. DONE, the meeting happened. * JRB to send an update on what hardware has been bought for the event box: IN PROGRESS. * JRB to mail board-list about invoicing Intel (hard disk crash): Quim to take this action. * Quim to contact HP and Novell about sponsorship for GUADEC. DONE - both sponsoring * Federico to mail Quim/Behdad/Germán about replacing Luis. DONE NEW ACTIONS =========== * Federico to send minutes from the Advisory Board meeting to advisory-board-list. * JRB to post the contact info for the lawyer / accountant to board-list and the wiki. * Federico to make the announcement for the part-time administrator. * Jeff to write a proposal for the subcommittees. * Jeff to ensure that all the board members are in the marketing-private and board-only lists. * Dave to send draft agenda for the Advisory Board meeting, based on Federico's paper. * Anne to to take over contacts with GNOME's legal partners. AGENDA ====== * Welcome Quim to the Board: - Gave Quim a brief update on what the Board has been doing. - Quim told us that he has been reading the board-list minutes but not the archives. * Figuring out how to execute all the pending actions, and not be swamped in pending stuff all the time: - NEW ACTION: JRB to post the contact info for the lawyer / accountant to board-list and the wiki. - We are going to need a presence in the USA no matter what, for legal matters in the Foundation. * Administrator hire / outsourcing: - NEW ACTION: Federico to make the announcement for the part-time administrator. - We want to hire someone part-time immediately and will announce the vacancy and ask Zana to submit a candidature. * Increasing the board size: - Idea about letting people into board-list and into the phone calls, without them being board members. Then they can volunteer to do some of the tasks that the board can't do effectively (like someone in the USA to look for an administrator). - NEW ACTION: Jeff to write a proposal for the subcommittees. * Agendas for GUADEC: - Let's send provisional agendas in advance. - NEW ACTION: Dave to send draft agenda for the Advisory Board meeting, based on Federico's paper. From behdad.esfahbod@gmail.com Thu Jun 15 17:38:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10A073B0011 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2006 17:38:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02101-02 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2006 17:38:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.235]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CCB93B0305 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2006 17:38:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 37so427821wra for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2006 14:38:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.108.13 with SMTP id g13mr2187733wrc; Thu, 15 Jun 2006 14:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.190.5? ( [72.136.156.47]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 6sm1544376wrl.2006.06.15.14.38.10; Thu, 15 Jun 2006 14:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Women's Summer Outreach Program 2006 From: Behdad Esfahbod To: gnome-hackers@gnome.org, foundation-list@gnome.org, foundation-announce@gnome.org, gnome-announce-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 17:38:06 -0400 Message-Id: <1150407487.29623.12.camel@home> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 (2.6.1-1.fc5.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: Behdad Esfahbod X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 21:38:54 -0000 GNOME to Sponsor Female Developers in a Summer Outreach Program BOSTON, Mass - June 13, 2006 - The GNOME Foundation is offering USD$9000 to female students in order to promote the participation of women in GNOME-related development. The money originates from GNOME's participation in the Google "Summer of Code" program (code.google.com/soc/), for which GNOME developers will mentor 20 students working throughout the northern summer on GNOME-related projects. This year GNOME received 181 applications to Google's program, yet none were from women. The GNOME Foundation has therefore chosen to reinvest Google's contribution into a new program designed to increase the participation of women in GNOME. The program has no official relationship with Google. "Free software prides itself on being open to anyone with a good idea, yet less than 2% of free software developers are female. We, as a community, need to be actively working to change this statistic, and programs like this one are a much needed step in the right direction." said Hanna Wallach, a GNOME developer who is involved in several projects that encourage women to participate in free software development. The Women's Summer Outreach Program is currently accepting applications from female students. Accepted students will receive a stipend of USD $3000 over a two month period. A pool of project ideas is provided at www.gnome.org/projects/wsop/, though original proposals are also encouraged. Projects may either be related to GNOME directly, or indirectly via projects such as Gstreamer and Abiword. Each student will be assigned a mentor to provide guidance throughout the program. Vincent Untz, member of the GNOME Foundation board and coordinator of the GNOME team for Google's "Summer of Code" program, explained: "Many women have the skills required to contribute to Free Software projects like GNOME, but may not see an opportunity to start working with us. By initiating this program, not only do we want to highlight the issue, but we also hope that this opportunity will help more women to get involved in the long term." Applications should be submitted using the form at www.gnome.org/projects/wsop/. More information about the application process may be found at the same location. From mark@galassi.org Sun Jun 11 01:20:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CD043B0074; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 01:20:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11497-01; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 01:20:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agora.rdrop.com (agora.rdrop.com [199.26.172.34]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 277D23B00C1; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 01:20:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (67-42-116-199.albq.qwest.net [67.42.116.199]) (authenticated bits=0) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id k5B5IxaM059197 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 10 Jun 2006 22:19:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@galassi.org) To: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> From: Mark Galassi Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:18:04 -0600 In-Reply-To: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> (Federico Mena Quintero's message of "Fri, 09 Jun 2006 09:35:42 -0500") Message-ID: <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (agora.rdrop.com [199.26.172.34]); Sat, 10 Jun 2006 22:19:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.465 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.465 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 05:53:15 -0400 Cc: foundation-announce@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 05:20:27 -0000 Federico> 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. I hope that it will be a firm requirement that only free s/w be used to run the Foundation's administration. I know you are only talking about literacy, not what tools will be used, but I think this is a good moment to state that if we start hiring non-free-sw-hackers to do this kind of work, we should insist that they use free tools. I still remember my sadness when I worked for Cygnus and saw that the non-developers did not use free s/w across the board. From rms@gnu.org Sat Jun 17 15:56:39 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A04183B01A6; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:56:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05890-09; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:56:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7F0E3B0061; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:56:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1Frgt3-0006cU-Ba; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:55:17 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Mark Galassi In-reply-to: <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> (message from Mark Galassi on Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:18:04 -0600) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Message-Id: Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:55:17 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.549 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.051, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.549 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-announce@gnome.org, foundation-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:56:39 -0000 Federico> 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. Unless you're looking for kernel hackers, please make that "GNU/Linux literate". You probably want people who know how to edit with Emacs, write code to compile with GCC, debug with GDB, and call functions in GLIBC and GTK+. From alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk Sat Jun 17 18:05:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E96D3B095C; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:05:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11915-05; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:05:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (unknown [81.2.110.250]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8C153B0995; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:05:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k5HMK9aZ010673; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:20:09 +0100 Received: (from alan@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k5HMK8a3010672; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:20:08 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: alan set sender to alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk using -f Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Alan Cox To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:20:08 +0100 Message-Id: <1150582808.10649.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.2 (2.6.2-1.fc5.5) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.589 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.010, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.589 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-announce@gnome.org, foundation-list@gnome.org, Mark Galassi X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 22:05:03 -0000 Ar Sad, 2006-06-17 am 15:55 -0400, ysgrifennodd Richard Stallman: > Unless you're looking for kernel hackers, > please make that "GNU/Linux literate". Linux is a trademark in the USA. The use of GNU/Linux without indicating the trademark is inappropriately confusing the registered mark. And last time I checked GNOME was not a GNU project. Alan From jrb@redhat.com Sat Jun 17 18:12:06 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E29BF3B095C; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:12:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12356-02; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:12:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [66.187.233.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 567043B035D; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:12:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5HL9w54017447; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 17:09:58 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (devserv.devel.redhat.com [172.16.58.1]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5HL9wAk007091; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 17:09:58 -0400 Received: from vpn50-83.rdu.redhat.com (vpn50-83.rdu.redhat.com [172.16.50.83]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5HL9wrV027671; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 17:09:58 -0400 Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Jonathan Blandford To: Mark Galassi In-Reply-To: <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-Nx9mtySaFKPPRo++4u3H" Organization: Red Hat, Inc. Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 17:09:57 -0400 Message-Id: <1150578597.2841.94.camel@peach> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.2 (2.6.2-1.fc5.5) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.583 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.583 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-announce@gnome.org, foundation-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 22:12:06 -0000 --=-Nx9mtySaFKPPRo++4u3H Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, 2006-06-10 at 23:18 -0600, Mark Galassi wrote: > Federico> 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. >=20 > I hope that it will be a firm requirement that only free s/w be used > to run the Foundation's administration. >=20 > I know you are only talking about literacy, not what tools will be > used, but I think this is a good moment to state that if we start > hiring non-free-sw-hackers to do this kind of work, we should insist > that they use free tools. >=20 > I still remember my sadness when I worked for Cygnus and saw that the > non-developers did not use free s/w across the board. Right now, we use free tools to run almost all the foundation's books. We use gnucash, abiword, glabels[1] and gnucash for the bookkeeping. The GNOME tools are more than adequate to handle the Foundation's needs. We do have a vmware instance to run Internet Explorer just for online banking. No one on the board is happy with this situation, and we're planning on switching banks over this issue. Thanks, -Jonathan [1] which is a really nice and underpromoted program. Many kudos to the authors for doing such a slick job on this application. --=-Nx9mtySaFKPPRo++4u3H Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBElG+lEXFTqNjUZNwRAl8xAJ0anqoLKt5dgU454m1WNN3cMSw0DgCgnxu2 uNT01EAS78FHMGmDtvrSe4U= =96VV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-Nx9mtySaFKPPRo++4u3H-- From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Sat Jun 17 18:17:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EF873B035D for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:17:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12134-06 for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:17:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 740AD3B00EC for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:17:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 22052 invoked by uid 0); 17 Jun 2006 22:09:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.34]) (83.55.163.198) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 22:09:23 +0000 Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Quim Gil To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-BKWWivCcc2A9dMiCc/lk" Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 00:09:23 +0200 Message-Id: <1150582163.5117.119.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.489 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=1.110, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -1.489 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, Mark Galassi X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 22:17:36 -0000 --=-BKWWivCcc2A9dMiCc/lk Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El ds 17 de 06 del 2006 a les 15:55 -0400, en/na Richard Stallman va escriure: > Federico> 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. >=20 > Unless you're looking for kernel hackers, > please make that "GNU/Linux literate". In fact, in this case it would be most accurate to say "Preferably free software literate", since the skills we require from this administrator are focused on the usage of office/desktop applications. Maybe we should have simply asked for someone "preferably GNOME user". :) > You probably want people who know how to edit with Emacs, > write code to compile with GCC, debug with GDB, and call > functions in GLIBC and GTK+. Well, not at all. We are looking for an administrator (accounting, bookkeeping and so on) and not for a system administrator or a developer. Think more on the basic Internet tools, word processors, spreadsheets and accounting applications. About making this preference for free software literacy a requirement, I agree the desirable scenario would be to have an accountant hired by the GNOME Foundation and working with GNOME. But we need an accountant, urgently. Finding candidates is not easy, and the priority is to find the best accountant available. If this person doesn't know perfectly how to use the free tools available s/he can learn. Very different of hiring a great free software user/developer with just regular administrative skills. Help us finding a great administrator with the free software skills needed, and problem solved. :) PS: Richard, looking forward to seeing you next week in Barcelona. --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-BKWWivCcc2A9dMiCc/lk Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBElH2TBEzHYk6x634RAtXIAKCLt4AFrMI1nTSPHx6Jb/37wjIccgCgjaMF xsTDfjS15mNraeZqZMLEn18= =5H0p -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-BKWWivCcc2A9dMiCc/lk-- From csaavedr@wh8.tu-dresden.de Sat Jun 17 19:20:25 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEB543B00AA for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:20:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14208-01 for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:20:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de (B202a.WH8.tu-dresden.de [141.30.225.153]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 945613B0072 for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:20:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from claudio by b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1Fri1j-00079r-O8; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:08:19 +0200 Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Claudio Saavedra To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:08:19 +0200 Message-Id: <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.7.2.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.511 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=1.088, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -1.511 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, Mark Galassi X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:20:25 -0000 On Sat, 2006-06-17 at 15:55 -0400, Richard Stallman wrote: > Federico> 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. > > Unless you're looking for kernel hackers, > please make that "GNU/Linux literate". > You probably want people who know how to edit with Emacs, > write code to compile with GCC, debug with GDB, and call > functions in GLIBC and GTK+. Even when you are right regarding the probably-irrelevant-in-context GNU/Linux issue, it worths noting that the Foundation is looking for an administrator, not a hacker. That is clearly stated in Federico's e-mail title and body. Claudio -- Claudio Saavedra From ross@golder.org Sun Jun 18 01:32:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE8D33B0078 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 01:32:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25300-01 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 01:32:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from black.golder.org (black.golder.org [81.6.249.35]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F5E73B0077 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 01:32:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by black.golder.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 912E14A91; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 06:31:48 +0100 (BST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at golder.org Received: from black.golder.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (black.golder.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N7kkDs0z54xW; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 06:31:46 +0100 (BST) Received: from [10.175.76.210] (unknown [203.170.228.172]) by black.golder.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32A6C3FE2; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 06:31:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Ross Golder To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:30:54 +0700 Message-Id: <1150608655.10699.15.camel@red> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.427 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.614, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.558] X-Spam-Score: -0.427 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, Mark Galassi X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 05:32:52 -0000 On Sat, 2006-06-17 at 15:55 -0400, Richard Stallman wrote: > You probably want people who know how to edit with Emacs, > write code to compile with GCC, debug with GDB, and call > functions in GLIBC and GTK+. I don't think that's exactly what the board had in mind when said they were after an 'administrator'. I think the requirement was to be computer literate in the sense of being able to use 'normal' user-based applications, such as word processors and spreadsheets, to manage the day-to-day running of the foundation. If they're handy with Emacs, GCC and the rest, they'd probably be wasted on doing the admin job described ;) -- Ross From rms@gnu.org Sun Jun 18 12:27:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09B433B08DE for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:27:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02641-10 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:27:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F22B23B0739 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:27:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1Fs06n-0005PA-9D; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:26:45 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Alan Cox In-reply-to: <1150582808.10649.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> (message from Alan Cox on Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:20:08 +0100) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150582808.10649.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-Id: Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:26:45 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.553 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.047, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.553 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 16:27:41 -0000 Linux is a trademark in the USA. The use of GNU/Linux without indicating the trademark is inappropriately confusing the registered mark. I could ask lawyers whether you are right, but I think there is no need to ask them unless someone makes a legal complaint. The FSF has never received one. The system as used today is basically GNU, but Linux is also an important component. We call it "GNU/Linux" partly so as to give the developers of Linux a share of the credit for the combination. If the developers of Linux prefer not to receive this share of the credit, they need only say so publicly; then if we stop adding "/Linux", people will understand that in doing so we are responding to their wishes. And last time I checked GNOME was not a GNU project. GNOME is part of the GNU project, but the two questions are independent. From rms@gnu.org Sun Jun 18 12:27:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCE733B0B52 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:27:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02678-07 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:27:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A58EF3B0862 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:27:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1Fs06o-0005PM-L2; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:26:46 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Claudio Saavedra In-reply-to: <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> (message from Claudio Saavedra on Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:08:19 +0200) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> Message-Id: Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:26:46 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.553 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.047, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.553 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 16:27:58 -0000 Even when you are right regarding the probably-irrelevant-in-context GNU/Linux issue, it worths noting that the Foundation is looking for an administrator, not a hacker. That is clearly stated in Federico's e-mail title and body. You're right; I had forgotten that. (I was looking at Mark's message which quoted those lines, not at Federico's message.) I'm sorry for causing some confusion. I ought to have said, Since you're not looking for kernel hackers, please make that "GNU/Linux literate". You probably want someone who knows how to edit with Emacs, do accounting with GNUcash and Gnumeric, operate GNOME, etc. (Quim Gil pointed out that it may be necessary to hire someone who isn't GNU/Linux literate, just to get someone soon. I'm not trying to dispute that question.) From dneary@free.fr Sun Jun 18 20:04:50 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01C193B016D for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:04:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15953-08 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:04:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from postfix1-c.free.fr (postfix1-c.free.fr [213.228.0.79]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C03463B00D9 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:04:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp4-g19.free.fr (smtp4-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.30]) by postfix1-c.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 153F01D0F8CA for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 19:47:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp4-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id B025D54B4D; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:46:55 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:46:51 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 00:04:50 -0000 Richard Stallman wrote: > Since you're not looking for kernel hackers, > please make that "GNU/Linux literate". > You probably want someone who knows how to edit with Emacs, > do accounting with GNUcash and Gnumeric, operate GNOME, etc. > > (Quim Gil pointed out that it may be necessary to hire someone > who isn't GNU/Linux literate, just to get someone soon. > I'm not trying to dispute that question.) In reality, we will likely hire someone who is already competent in the use of free software - but I agree with Quim that this should not be a requirement (obviously (at least to me), *using* free software will be part of the job, where possible). Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Mon Jun 19 02:11:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 126B23B00F5 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 02:11:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27639-03 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 02:11:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DDBF53B0768 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 02:11:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 9391 invoked by uid 0); 19 Jun 2006 03:43:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.34]) (83.57.177.1) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 03:43:17 +0000 Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Quim Gil To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-QZNJhnZwbMcdr5TNaRP4" Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 05:43:17 +0200 Message-Id: <1150688597.5156.27.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.221 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.378, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.221 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 06:11:33 -0000 --=-QZNJhnZwbMcdr5TNaRP4 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El dg 18 de 06 del 2006 a les 12:26 -0400, en/na Richard Stallman va escriure: > (Quim Gil pointed out that it may be necessary to hire someone > who isn't GNU/Linux literate, just to get someone soon. Just to avoid confusion, I didn't meant to hire someone who isn't free software literate to use non-free software tools as a GNOME administrator, but come and learn the usage of the free tools the Foundation is already using (detailed by Jonathan). A good administrator knowing the concepts and knowing to use non-free tools is very likely to learn the usage of the free tools easily. That's all. As Dave has pointed out, we have already at least one candidate able to use the current free tools. --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-QZNJhnZwbMcdr5TNaRP4 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBElh1VBEzHYk6x634RAk/wAJ9NJcxJMd5BaRvAE2lNm76/zlYR7gCfViG9 +4NfH+cpdGBCEPYrHBcIv9o= =rwa9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-QZNJhnZwbMcdr5TNaRP4-- From rms@gnu.org Mon Jun 19 16:09:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D20B3B0D15 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 16:09:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30107-07 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 16:09:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A0613B0217 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 16:09:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1FsQ39-00075Z-0M; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 16:08:43 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: David Neary In-reply-to: <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> (message from David Neary on Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:46:51 +0200) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> Message-Id: Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 16:08:43 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.56 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.040, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.56 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 20:09:41 -0000 In reality, we will likely hire someone who is already competent in the use of free software - but I agree with Quim that this should not be a requirement (obviously (at least to me), *using* free software will be part of the job, where possible). I think the Foundation should absolutely insist on using only free software. That way it will lead by example. From jdub@waugh.id.au Mon Jun 19 22:51:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED0A33B05A6 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:51:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18924-10 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D5A53B0301 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (unknown [81.80.162.93]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CF053C56C for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:50:56 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id F0999410E; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 04:28:04 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 04:28:04 +0200 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation Message-ID: <20060620022804.GB5152@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-25-686 i686 Reply-By: Fri Jun 23 04:26:14 CEST 2006 X-Uptime: 04:26:14 up 8:30, 5 users, load average: 0.02, 0.07, 0.03 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.59 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.009, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.59 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 02:51:52 -0000 > In reality, we will likely hire someone who is already competent in the > use of free software - but I agree with Quim that this should not be a > requirement (obviously (at least to me), *using* free software will be > part of the job, where possible). > > I think the Foundation should absolutely insist on using only free > software. That way it will lead by example. That is not under question. The suggestion Quim made is that having *prior experience* in the use of Free Software need not be necessary - however, the successful applicant will *absolutely* USE Free Software in their role, no questions asked. - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ "The GPL is good. Use it. Don't be silly." - Michael Meeks From dneary@free.fr Tue Jun 20 02:45:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B618A3B0248 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 02:45:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30248-07 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 02:45:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp6.orange.fr (smtp6.orange.fr [193.252.22.25]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41B9C3B0085 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 02:45:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp6.orange.fr (mwinf0604 [172.22.137.26]) by mwinf0610.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 2703A804F6D for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:43:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf0604.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 61BB21C001CE; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:43:18 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060620064318400.61BB21C001CE@mwinf0604.orange.fr Message-ID: <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:43:43 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 06:45:20 -0000 Hi, Richard Stallman wrote: > In reality, we will likely hire someone who is already competent in the > use of free software - but I agree with Quim that this should not be a > requirement (obviously (at least to me), *using* free software will be > part of the job, where possible). > > I think the Foundation should absolutely insist on using only free > software. That way it will lead by example. As Jonathan pointed out, our bank has a website which does some rather evil platform detection, and refuses to run on anything other than IE. So we are obliged to have a Windows instance installed, or we can not use this bank's online services. We have made our issue known, and are investigating changing banks. Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From baris@teamforce.name.tr Tue Jun 20 04:44:28 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B05333B0F52 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 04:44:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03469-07 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 04:44:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nerd.com.tr (unknown [69.60.117.115]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 354883B0F3F for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 04:44:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nerd.com.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52DE578503C; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 05:47:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nerd.com.tr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (nerd.com.tr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06570-08; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 05:47:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (unknown [81.213.157.51]) by nerd.com.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C6AA78503B; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 05:47:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Baris Cicek To: Dave Neary In-Reply-To: <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-PXVkvwvUKTNQvc8SbOVI" Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 11:43:47 +0300 Message-Id: <1150793027.2669.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 (2.6.1-1.fc5.2) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at nerd.com.tr X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.26 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.339, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.26 X-Spam-Level: Cc: mark@galassi.org, rms@gnu.org, foundation-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:44:28 -0000 --=-PXVkvwvUKTNQvc8SbOVI Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That might be a little technical and maybe out of this discussion boundaries but, why instead of making IE run over wine, you use more than necessary non-free software? (ie. Windows, VMWARE). I bet are already paid, but I use wine for IE related stuff, and it "just works". Besides, I find Linux (or GNU/Linux) literate expression a little problematic, because generally people use Computer Literate, and by default thinking it as Windows computer. To overcome this issue, best thing to do might be to call it as Computer Literate, and list the applications that applicant should know like OpenOffice.org and Firefox, gnuCash and even Linux. Once you know this applications, I doubt Linux Desktop learning curve would be steep for any applicant. This way it might solve the problem for those who would not apply for job since they don't know Linux, as people would see themselves as computer literate.=20 On Tue, 2006-06-20 at 08:43 +0200, Dave Neary wrote: > Hi, >=20 > Richard Stallman wrote: > > In reality, we will likely hire someone who is already competent in= the > > use of free software - but I agree with Quim that this should not b= e a > > requirement (obviously (at least to me), *using* free software will= be > > part of the job, where possible). > >=20 > > I think the Foundation should absolutely insist on using only free > > software. That way it will lead by example. >=20 > As Jonathan pointed out, our bank has a website which does some rather > evil platform detection, and refuses to run on anything other than IE. > So we are obliged to have a Windows instance installed, or we can not > use this bank's online services. We have made our issue known, and are > investigating changing banks. >=20 > Cheers, > Dave. >=20 --=-PXVkvwvUKTNQvc8SbOVI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEl7VD62fLHU++kcURAhtHAJ9UHIjP9z0fmc8pWeouqiuiYqpLQQCgpRsS tMw7PLzygujdDmZirBXFPkc= =t2gV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-PXVkvwvUKTNQvc8SbOVI-- From rms@gnu.org Tue Jun 20 13:56:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 728673B0302 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:56:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01985-06 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:56:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EF1A3B01C9 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:56:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1FskSW-0002Fm-Nl; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:56:16 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Dave Neary In-reply-to: <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> (message from Dave Neary on Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:43:43 +0200) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> Message-Id: Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:56:16 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.562 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.038, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.562 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 17:56:47 -0000 As Jonathan pointed out, our bank has a website which does some rather evil platform detection, and refuses to run on anything other than IE. This is worse than I realized. The Foundation is not only using user-subjugating software, it is using a bank that pressures its customers to do so. That makes two reasons to stop. Running Internet Explorer on GNU/Linux using Wine, which someone suggested, is not a real solution because IE itself is proprietary software. That approach avoids Windows, but doesn't avoid IE. Until you find another bank, you could stop dealing with the bank on line, and do business with it the old-fashioned way, with paper, phone calls, and/or visits to the bank office. It may be inconvenient, but it freedom is worth a small sacrifice. However, another approach is worth thinking about. What is the obstacle to programming a free browser so that it pretends to be IE? That would be the really desirable solution. What bank is it? Maybe the FSF and the GNOME Foundation can organize a pressure campaign for the bank to change its policies. From jrb@redhat.com Tue Jun 20 14:14:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FD993B0302 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03318-07 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [66.187.233.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9EA73B002A for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5KIEXeM012200; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:33 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (devserv.devel.redhat.com [172.16.58.1]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5KIEXXl005041; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:33 -0400 Received: from dhcp83-106.boston.redhat.com (dhcp83-106.boston.redhat.com [172.16.83.106]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5KIEXLi014411; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Jonathan Blandford To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-TDVQMLZFU5CgYyjlCe+L" Organization: Red Hat, Inc. Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:43 -0400 Message-Id: <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.2 (2.6.2-1.fc5.5) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.585 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.585 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 18:14:51 -0000 --=-TDVQMLZFU5CgYyjlCe+L Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable *shrug* Online banking is a new feature for this bank. We told them we were planning on switching banks if they didn't support Firefox or other browsers, and they said that they would look into it. I wouldn't expect them to support it overnight, and given the expense of switching banks, I wouldn't want to switch immediately. I don't know what a 'reasonable time' is for this, but we are probably just approaching it. Additionally, if you recall, the original purpose of this thread was to help find an administrator for the GNOME Foundation. I would expect the new admin to switch banks if we can't use Firefox or epiphany, but we're not exactly operating on all cylinders right now. Thanks, -Jonathan --=-TDVQMLZFU5CgYyjlCe+L Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEmDsSEXFTqNjUZNwRAk3oAKCr9C48KXFinXyWgIoIWP4UHrpfLgCdFdAI cvXosbkKBwWsgF8uQHhkKDA= =puHs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-TDVQMLZFU5CgYyjlCe+L-- From rms@gnu.org Tue Jun 20 19:32:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 822E23B038F for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:32:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24251-01 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:32:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D1E83B03D8 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:32:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1FspiH-0005lF-Iv; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:32:53 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Jonathan Blandford In-reply-to: <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> (message from Jonathan Blandford on Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:43 -0400) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-Id: Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:32:53 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.564 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.036, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.564 X-Spam-Level: Cc: dneary@free.fr, foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 23:32:56 -0000 Online banking is a new feature for this bank. We told them we were planning on switching banks if they didn't support Firefox or other browsers, and they said that they would look into it. I wouldn't expect them to support it overnight, It would be counterproductive to hurry them to decide; and if they decide to switch, they need time to do the work. However, that doesn't mean the GNOME Foundation needs to use non-free software. Since on-line banking is a new feature for them, you can do without it while waiting. Accepting inconveniences rather than using non-free software is a great way to show by example that freedom is important. From ross@golder.org Tue Jun 20 21:29:15 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97CDF3B0357 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 21:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29296-09 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 21:29:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from black.golder.org (black.golder.org [81.6.249.35]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D70683B043E for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 21:29:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by black.golder.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5740940DD; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:29:12 +0100 (BST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at golder.org Received: from black.golder.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (black.golder.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nWXZNpqFnBff; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:29:09 +0100 (BST) Received: from red (unknown [125.24.70.244]) by black.golder.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6E9A40AB; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:29:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Ross Golder To: Jonathan Blandford In-Reply-To: <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:28:24 +0700 Message-Id: <1150853304.5559.28.camel@red> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.536 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.063, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.536 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , mark@galassi.org, rms@gnu.org, foundation-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 01:29:15 -0000 On Tue, 2006-06-20 at 14:14 -0400, Jonathan Blandford wrote: > *shrug* > > Online banking is a new feature for this bank. We told them we were > planning on switching banks if they didn't support Firefox or other > browsers, and they said that they would look into it. I wouldn't expect > them to support it overnight, and given the expense of switching banks, > I wouldn't want to switch immediately. It shouldn't be hard to find a bank that does support our needs, open an account with them, transfer the money from the old account, close the old account, update some docs/notes. I can't see it costing more than a few hours and maybe a few dollars. A reasonably motivated administrator should have that done in a day or two, I'd have thought, then they won't have to sit around waiting for our bank to fix their systems. I'm curious as to why the account was opened with the current bank in the first place, without a basic check that their on-line facilities were suitable. It seems a bit odd. I'm not looking to assign blame to anyone, just to make sure it's a mistake learned from and something similar won't happen again at the foundation's cost. I'm also curious about who the current bank is :) > Additionally, if you recall, the original purpose of this thread was to > help find an administrator for the GNOME Foundation. I would expect the > new admin to switch banks if we can't use Firefox or epiphany, but we're > not exactly operating on all cylinders right now. > A good first job for them then. Also, would it be possible for them to write a brief monthly report to the foundation-list about their month's activities and expenses etc. It might help make things a little more transparent/accountable. -- Ross From mark@galassi.org Sat Jun 17 19:01:04 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F6E53B0080; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:01:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13804-04; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:01:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agora.rdrop.com (agora.rdrop.com [199.26.172.34]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A04713B00B2; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:01:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (67-42-116-199.albq.qwest.net [67.42.116.199]) (authenticated bits=0) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id k5HMCnLH009742 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:12:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@galassi.org) To: Jonathan Blandford Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578597.2841.94.camel@peach> From: Mark Galassi Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 16:12:38 -0600 In-Reply-To: <1150578597.2841.94.camel@peach> (Jonathan Blandford's message of "Sat, 17 Jun 2006 17:09:57 -0400") Message-ID: <87k67fh1nt.fsf@galassi.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (agora.rdrop.com [199.26.172.34]); Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:12:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.465 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.465 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:19:47 -0400 Cc: foundation-announce@gnome.org, foundation-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:01:04 -0000 >> I hope that it will be a firm requirement that only free s/w be >> used to run the Foundation's administration. Jonathan> Right now, we use free tools to run almost all the Jonathan> foundation's books. [...] I'm glad to hear this. I'm always embarassed when I see managers using Windows and PowerPoint to present the advantages of "open source". Although I guess their sense of self-irony should be applauded. From arieltenor@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 15:09:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 068543B01C9 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:09:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07446-06 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:09:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.169]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BE073B01AB for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:09:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id o2so3159054uge for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.58.11 with SMTP id g11mr2888428hua; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.70.5 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:09:48 -0500 From: "Ariel Rios" To: rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.34 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.260, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.34 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:19:47 -0400 Cc: Dave Neary , foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:09:54 -0000 > However, another approach is worth thinking about. What is the > obstacle to programming a free browser so that it pretends to be IE? > That would be the really desirable solution. I faced a similar issue with a Mexican bank that only supported Explorer. I downloaded the great User Agent Switcher extension for Firefox so I can use the site. Maybe that can also help for this specific bank. ariel From dneary@free.fr Wed Jun 21 02:20:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE14A3B0ACC for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:20:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12587-05 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:20:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2-g19.free.fr (smtp2-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.28]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A34173B07CA for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:20:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp2-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8471730DA; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:20:13 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4498E519.1090207@free.fr> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:20:09 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ross Golder Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1150853304.5559.28.camel@red> In-Reply-To: <1150853304.5559.28.camel@red> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org, Jonathan Blandford , rms@gnu.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 06:20:21 -0000 Hi, Ross Golder wrote: > It shouldn't be hard to find a bank that does support our needs, open an > account with them, transfer the money from the old account, close the > old account, update some docs/notes. I can't see it costing more than a > few hours and maybe a few dollars. A reasonably motivated administrator > should have that done in a day or two, I'd have thought, then they won't > have to sit around waiting for our bank to fix their systems. Update our records in various invoicing systems, go through paypal confirmation with the new account, get a credit card set up, change the credit card number with various suppliers, ... Changing banks, as anyone who has done so can tell you, is a pain - you end up finding out months afterwards that people you hadn't thought of still have your old bank details for electronic payments. > I'm also curious > about who the current bank is :) It's no secret - it's Silicon Valley Bank. I have no idea how or why they were chosen. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Wed Jun 21 03:32:26 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C367B3B073E for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 03:32:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17098-07 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 03:32:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 265943B0302 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 03:32:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 32359 invoked by uid 0); 21 Jun 2006 07:32:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.103]) (213.96.45.171) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 07:32:23 +0000 Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Quim Gil To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-9NcbC9D9ObPWb6tVSAvd" Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:17:02 +0200 Message-Id: <1150849022.5111.76.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.092 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.320, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_06_12=0.827] X-Spam-Score: -2.092 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 07:32:27 -0000 --=-9NcbC9D9ObPWb6tVSAvd Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El dt 20 de 06 del 2006 a les 13:56 -0400, en/na Richard Stallman va escriure: > Until you find another bank, you could stop dealing with the bank on > line, and do business with it the old-fashioned way, with paper, phone > calls, and/or visits to the bank office. It may be inconvenient, but > it freedom is worth a small sacrifice. Just to note that things are more complicated than this, applying your recommendation now would put GUADEC 2006 at risk. --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-9NcbC9D9ObPWb6tVSAvd Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEmI/+BEzHYk6x634RAli9AJ0Yl9ujZ51x8OevVFK6Od/EFrrVJgCgoRr9 /W9wXSuuUwhdaf48E+BWTbg= =2S6J -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-9NcbC9D9ObPWb6tVSAvd-- From rms@gnu.org Wed Jun 21 13:03:43 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9037F3B00AE for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:03:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23401-05 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:03:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EDA03B02D1 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:03:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1Ft67A-0003cy-2e; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:03:40 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Quim Gil In-reply-to: <1150849022.5111.76.camel@localhost> (message from Quim Gil on Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:17:02 +0200) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> <1150849022.5111.76.camel@localhost> Message-Id: Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:03:40 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.566 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.034, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.566 X-Spam-Level: Cc: dneary@free.fr, foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:03:43 -0000 Just to note that things are more complicated than this, applying your recommendation now would put GUADEC 2006 at risk. GUADEC will be finished a week from now; after a few more weeks go by, it surely won't be hard to use pen and paper for the remaining bills. From murrayc@murrayc.com Thu Jun 22 06:07:43 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E8513B035E for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 06:07:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14936-06 for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 06:07:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com (webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com [66.33.201.159]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC4DB3B0254 for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 06:07:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.murrayc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E839A2C203 for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 03:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 194.138.18.132 (proxying for unknown) (SquirrelMail authenticated user murrayc@murrayc.com) by webmail.murrayc.com with HTTP; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 12:07:39 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <16193.194.138.18.132.1150970859.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 12:07:39 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Code Of Conduct draft #2 From: "Murray Cumming" To: foundation-list@gnome.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.56 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.039, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.56 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 10:07:43 -0000 Here's my latest draft of the Code Of Conduct, or whatever we end up calling it: http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct I think the main content is done. More text would make the whole thing less ineresting. But I'm having particular difficulty writing the summary. Ideally it should be short, snappy, and inspirational. Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From vuntz@gnome.org Thu Jun 22 11:20:59 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7440A3B0689; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 11:20:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05338-02; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 11:20:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fennas.vuntz.net (fennas.vuntz.net [82.228.182.88]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C25A13B0495; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 11:20:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by fennas.vuntz.net (Postfix, from userid 33) id 6E19D112693; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 17:20:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 129.88.38.77 (SquirrelMail authenticated user vuntz) by vuntz.net with HTTP; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 17:20:56 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <50469.129.88.38.77.1150989656.squirrel@vuntz.net> Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 17:20:56 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Intel joins the GNOME Foundation's Advisory Board From: "Vincent Untz" To: foundation-announce@gnome.org, foundation-list@gnome.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.561 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.038, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.561 X-Spam-Level: Cc: advisory-board@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 15:20:59 -0000 The GNOME Foundation is welcoming Intel as an Advisory Board member. This is part of Intel's increasing commitment to GNOME and to the free software desktop. We are delighted to have Intel on board: it will help us continue our bet of combining the passion of the GNOME community with the need for quality, stability and long term plans of big players who are increasingly interested and involved in free software development. With Intel joining, the Advisory Board member now consists of twelve established industry companies and projects. More informations on the Foundation's Advisory Board is available at: http://foundation.gnome.org/about/ Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. From waldo.bastian@intel.com Thu Jun 22 13:26:06 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABAE43B0785; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 13:26:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13095-04; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 13:26:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fmsmga101-1.fm.intel.com (mga01.intel.com [192.55.52.88]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F9093B0731; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 13:26:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fmsmga001.fm.intel.com ([10.253.24.23]) by fmsmga101-1.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 22 Jun 2006 10:25:59 -0700 Received: from orsmsx335.jf.intel.com (HELO orsmsx335.amr.corp.intel.com) ([10.22.226.40]) by fmsmga001.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 22 Jun 2006 10:23:13 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.06,166,1149490800"; d="scan'208"; a="56897970:sNHT90202169617" Received: from orsmsx409.amr.corp.intel.com ([192.168.65.58]) by orsmsx335.amr.corp.intel.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 22 Jun 2006 10:23:12 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Intel joins the GNOME Foundation's Advisory Board Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 10:23:11 -0700 Message-ID: <8AEB79DC01BE994D8DE3FD02FA5B475B03DFAAAE@orsmsx409> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Intel joins the GNOME Foundation's Advisory Board thread-index: AcaWD46K6AKg5uJfSieruaiGax8vKQAAhTNA From: "Bastian, Waldo" To: "Vincent Untz" , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Jun 2006 17:23:12.0881 (UTC) FILETIME=[8A39EE10:01C69620] X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.56 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.039, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.56 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 15:54:11 -0400 Cc: advisory-board@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 17:26:07 -0000 >The GNOME Foundation is welcoming Intel as an Advisory Board member. >This is part of Intel's increasing commitment to GNOME and to the >free software desktop. > >We are delighted to have Intel on board: it will help us continue our >bet of combining the passion of the GNOME community with the need for >quality, stability and long term plans of big players who are >increasingly interested and involved in free software development. > >With Intel joining, the Advisory Board member now consists of twelve >established industry companies and projects. More informations on the >Foundation's Advisory Board is available at: > > http://foundation.gnome.org/about/ > > >Vincent Thanks Vincent, It has been a pleasure working with the GNOME community as part of Intel's OSDL and LSB efforts, and I hope that being on the GNOME Advisory Board will create an even more productive working relationship between us and the GNOME community. As you have observed, coming from a KDE background, it has at times been a challenge for me to zero in on the right people in the GNOME community to engage on matters of mutual interest. Our participation in the Advisory Board should make that process far easier. Through OSDL and LSB, bridging the gaps between industry leading Linux desktop environments for the benefit of users and application developers has been an important goal for us. We very much appreciate the opportunity work more closely with the GNOME community to realize that goal. I look forward to meeting with all of you next week at GUADEC. Waldo Bastian Linux Client Architect - Client Linux Foundation Technology Channel Platform Solutions Group Intel Corporation - http://www.intel.com/go/linux OSDL DTL Tech Board Chairman From gpoo@ubiobio.cl Tue Jun 27 13:52:11 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7D4C3B0083 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:52:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11203-01 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:52:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay.ubiobio.cl (atlas.dci.ubiobio.cl [146.83.195.21]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C63223B0168 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:51:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by forward.ubiobio.cl (Postfix) with ESMTP id D23DF4002A7 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:51:12 -0400 (CLT) Received: from pegasus.dci.ubiobio.cl ([146.83.195.11]) by localhost (antivirus.dci.ubiobio.cl [146.83.195.21]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04061-75 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:51:12 -0400 (CLT) Received: from mimos.local (proxlinux.epsevg.upc.es [147.83.156.10]) by pegasus.dci.ubiobio.cl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 503E9280035D for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:51:11 -0400 (CLT) Subject: Ask for schedule board's meetings From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Germ=E1n_Po=F3_Caama=F1o?= To: foundation-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:51:07 -0400 Message-Id: <1151430667.15979.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at ubiobio.cl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.464 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.464 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:52:12 -0000 After the GNOME Foundation AGM I got the feeling (probably I not the only one) that there is a communication problem about what they are doing and where they need helps from the members. Don't forget the Foundation are we all of us. As a member is our obligation to ask for information, for instance, ask for the minutes of the board's meetings. But, how to ask if we don't know when the meetings happen. We only know it happen every two week, but not exactly or if they didn't take place. So, I ask to the board to publish the schedule of the meetings for this year. I think it is a easy task for the board that can help us to control and ask for information and try to give to them a hand in any task they need. Best regards, -- Germán Poó-Caamaño http://www.ubiobio.cl/~gpoo/ Concepción - Chile From peter@newton.cx Wed May 31 20:32:09 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A418F3B009E for ; Wed, 31 May 2006 20:32:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26596-08 for ; Wed, 31 May 2006 20:32:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from us19.unix.fas.harvard.edu (us19.unix.fas.harvard.edu [140.247.35.199]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38FCD3B0087 for ; Wed, 31 May 2006 20:32:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [140.247.147.223] ([140.247.147.223]) by us19.unix.fas.harvard.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k510W3RQ020234 for ; Wed, 31 May 2006 20:32:05 -0400 From: Peter Williams To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149065540.5127.117.camel@localhost> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 20:32:01 -0400 Message-Id: <1149121922.10913.131.camel@beta.newton.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 (2.6.1-1.fc5.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.535 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.064, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.535 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 00:32:09 -0000 On Wed, 2006-05-31 at 10:49 -0400, Dan Winship wrote: > Murray Cumming wrote: > > I wouldn't feel optimistic about a code of conduct that didn't represent > > our current consensus. > ... > > However, there's no shortage of people saying both that > > - Some improvement in behaviour is necessary > > These points don't fit together. If we are just making the current tacit > CoC explicit, then we would expect no change in behavior. If we are > trying to change behavior, then the CoC can't just represent the current > consensus. I would think of the CoC as more of an (intentionally weak) enforcement mechanism, rather than a change in policy. If someone is being obnoxious, hopefully someone will drop an email and say something like, "Hey, try to keep the Code in mind, OK?" It seems that the worry with such an idea is that people will send emails more like, "Hey you violated the Code, you're not welcome in GNOME anymore." But we can try to avoid this with a sort of meta-CoC. Perhaps a paragraph along these lines: "* Be reasonable. This Code is just a set of suggestions for polite behavior. Everyone gets angry from time to time. Don't beat the Code of Conduct over the heads of others, and don't use it as a basis to bar people from participation in activities." (I haven't spent a while honing this language or anything.) Peter -- Peter Williams / peter@newton.cx From Glynn.Foster@Sun.COM Wed May 31 22:35:28 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E4463B0098 for ; Wed, 31 May 2006 22:35:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32041-01 for ; Wed, 31 May 2006 22:35:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 564493B007C for ; Wed, 31 May 2006 22:35:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-04.sun.com (d1-emea-04.sun.com [192.18.2.114] (may be forged)) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k512ZPg5022056 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 03:35:25 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-04.sun.com by d1-emea-04.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0500F01TV0CM00@d1-emea-04.sun.com> (original mail from Glynn.Foster@Sun.COM) for foundation-list@gnome.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 03:35:24 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.18.42.16] by d1-emea-04.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0500CXUTUVC660@d1-emea-04.sun.com> for foundation-list@gnome.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 03:35:23 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:38:44 +1200 From: Glynn Foster In-reply-to: <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> Sender: Glynn.Foster@Sun.COM To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-id: <447E5334.3000206@sun.com> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149065540.5127.117.camel@localhost> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> User-Agent: Mail/News 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060515) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.595 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.003, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.595 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 02:35:28 -0000 Hey, Jeff Waugh wrote: > I guess I'll just fall back on the evidence as I've seen it - the Ubuntu > Code of Conduct has communicated a very strong statement of intent, and > ensured (not "made" but "ensured") that the Ubuntu community is a great > place to be. > > But cf. my email about why GNOME people stick around - I totally object to > the suggestions that a Code of Conduct is only needed in desperate times. > That's poppycock. Yeah, I think it's a positive thing that GNOME to do and hope that we can work by. If it'll encourage more people to come and spend time in the project, I'm all in agreement. Glynn From gnome-foundation-list@m.gmane.org Thu Jun 1 05:42:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08DFB3B0CE0 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 05:42:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23565-02 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 05:42:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 821AE3B0D78 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 05:20:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from root by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1FljLW-0003fl-Ej for foundation-list@gnome.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:20:02 +0200 Received: from 213.91.219.2 ([213.91.219.2]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:20:02 +0200 Received: from yavor by 213.91.219.2 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:20:02 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: foundation-list@gnome.org From: Yavor Doganov Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:58:47 +0300 Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440605300709u669c5da2sa352f1f5fedf2b06@mail.gmail.com> <14439.194.138.18.131.1149000460.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060530151633.GB28961@bridgewayconsulting.com.au> <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> <177e83dd0605301003h77a01816hed9a3a1afb849709@mail.gmail.com> <447E0013.9030307@gnome.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.91.219.2 User-Agent: Pan/0.14.2.91 (As She Crawled Across the Table (Debian GNU/Linux)) X-What_are_we_fighting_for: NO SOFTWARE PATENTS! NO BANANA REPUBLIC! Sender: news X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.542 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.441, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=1.5, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.542 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 09:42:40 -0000 On Wed, 31 May 2006 16:44:03 -0400, Tristan Van Berkom wrote: > GNOME is Free Software and part of the GNU project [...] > If the above statement is indeed true, I wonder where any misrepresentations > are, if they can be rectified and what can be done in general to improve > the overall interpretation of what the GNOME project is. If you read Planet GNOME and some of the mailing lists, you'll notice that many developers use the term "Open Source" and call the operating system "Linux", instead of GNU or GNU/Linux. Some of them were even excited when a popular non-free software was relicensed recently, allowing easier installation by the users, but still remaining non-free. If the core developers and project participants do not value and stand firm behind the ideals of the GNU Project and the Free Software Movement, you cannot expect that these ideals will touch the hearts of other people, particularly the "minority" groups in question. -- JID: doganov@jabber.minus273.org From jdub@waugh.id.au Thu Jun 1 06:25:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A33F3B0141 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:25:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26622-08 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:25:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF6F73B008B for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:25:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (unknown [203.217.18.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC7463CB6A for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 20:24:59 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 966C440B4; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 20:01:27 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 20:01:27 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060601100126.GA5214@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440605300709u669c5da2sa352f1f5fedf2b06@mail.gmail.com> <14439.194.138.18.131.1149000460.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060530151633.GB28961@bridgewayconsulting.com.au> <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> <177e83dd0605301003h77a01816hed9a3a1afb849709@mail.gmail.com> <447E0013.9030307@gnome.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 Reply-By: Sun Jun 4 19:54:21 EST 2006 X-Uptime: 19:54:21 up 51 min, 6 users, load average: 0.27, 0.40, 0.40 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 10:25:03 -0000 > If you read Planet GNOME and some of the mailing lists, you'll notice that > many developers use the term "Open Source" and call the operating system > "Linux", instead of GNU or GNU/Linux. Some of them were even excited when > a popular non-free software was relicensed recently, allowing easier > installation by the users, but still remaining non-free. > > If the core developers and project participants do not value and stand > firm behind the ideals of the GNU Project and the Free Software Movement, > you cannot expect that these ideals will touch the hearts of other people, > particularly the "minority" groups in question. Oh man, come on, this is silly behaviour. GNOME developers are *passionate* about Free Software, fiercely so. We're here to make sure that Free Software gets into the hands of normal users, not just geeks. However, we *do not* have our minds held hostage by dogma, and dogma doesn't drive freedom for *anyone*. We're all consenting adults, we can make our own decisions about what's good and what's not - but don't think for a minute that GNOME, as an organisation and social group is not pursuing a fierce Free Software agenda. - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2007: Sydney, Australia http://lca2007.linux.org.au/ "(Hint: IRC clients don't usually do DVD and VCD playback)." - Bastien Nocera From anne@oestergaard.nu Thu Jun 1 07:24:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D0113B00EE for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 07:24:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30376-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 07:23:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero0.cybercity.dk (cicero0.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.52]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D50F63B0119 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 07:23:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero0.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68F86678C70 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 13:23:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 164FB74FA04 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 13:23:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 22398 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2006 11:23:54 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 1 Jun 2006 11:23:54 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Bill Haneman In-Reply-To: <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149065540.5127.117.camel@localhost> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:23:54 +0200 Message-Id: <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.533 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.066, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.533 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:24:00 -0000 ons, 31 05 2006 kl. 20:38 +0100, skrev Bill Haneman: > On Wed, 2006-05-31 at 19:25, Tristan Van Berkom wrote: > > > Nobody will be driven away by that, people might be driven away by > > us stating that "you now are part of a community with a code of conduct". Actually if persons are driven away by not being able to accept rules of good conduct or The GNOME Ethics as we might prefer to call them then so be it. IMHO. > I don't agree. Every community has a code of conduct, implied or > explicit, IMO. Anyhow, there's no real enforcement mechanism, so I > don't see this as a realistic concern. > > ANY change or statement with a "policy" feel carries the risk of > alienating *somebody*, but that doesn't mean that embracing anarchy is > better. I have personally had the feeling over the past couple of years that the general atmosphere in the GNOME community has hardened. I joined the community in 2001 when I meet you all at GUADEC in Copenhagen. My reason for doing so was that it was the kindest most helpful group of people (although mostly white western males) that I had met in FLOSS. I think that being inventive is not equal to being anarchistic. Anarchistic is not a virtue in my book. Besides I find that it is not clever not to be able to accept the normal way of defining a well functioning democracy for all. Social rules and ethics will definitely be a competition parameter also for peoples personal choice of software now and in the future. > As an aside, I think the gender issue is important, and probably does > reflect some "cultural" issues within our community (GNOME and the FOSS > community in general). Members of a community rarely understand the > aspects of their culture that cause others to be alienated or > disinterested, even if they understand why they themselves feel included > and motivated. I fully agree with Bill and others here and I think we have to establish a gender action plan within GNOME, Ubuntu etc. We have got the opportunity to start this good trend! I do not say this to start a new long debat in this tread. But it has become obvious that the 1% participation of women in FLOSS is embarrassing and we need to have a look at why this is the case and make some cultural changes. I know that the Computer Science Department at the University of Gothenburg in Sweden has a gender action plan: http://www.informatik.gu.se/dokument/dokument.xsp?group=jamstalldhet&menu=org I think that many other universities and even GNOME and Ubuntu could get a lot of inspiration here. (Provided it gets translated from Swedish into a language you understand.) One of the purposes is to get more women in to research and teaching. Changing the mono culture is a vital goal. But to summon up what has happened in this debate: Most of the persons who has expressed themselves in this tread are positive to Murrays suggestion. So I think we should go for it. We might call it GNOME Ethics if "rules" has a disturbing ring to it. Anne From murrayc@murrayc.com Thu Jun 1 08:03:32 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1112C3B0D51 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:03:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00538-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:03:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com (webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com [66.33.201.159]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3998D3B0D3C for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:02:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.murrayc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D998A2CDA7; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 04:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 194.138.18.131 (proxying for unknown) (SquirrelMail authenticated user murrayc@murrayc.com) by webmail.murrayc.com with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 13:56:01 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> In-Reply-To: <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149065540.5127.117.camel@localhost> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 13:56:01 +0200 (CEST) From: "Murray Cumming" To: Anne =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.556 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.043, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.556 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 12:03:32 -0000 Anne wrote: [snip] > I do not say this to start a new long debat in this tread. But it has > become obvious that the 1% participation of women in FLOSS is > embarrassing and we need to have a look at why this is the case and make > some cultural changes. > > I know that the Computer Science Department at the University of > Gothenburg in Sweden has a gender action plan: > http://www.informatik.gu.se/dokument/dokument.xsp?group=jamstalldhet&menu=org > > I think that many other universities and even GNOME and Ubuntu could get > a lot of inspiration here. (Provided it gets translated from Swedish > into a language you understand.) [snip] Realistically, this plans needs to be written by you. Others will help you with it, but you need to create it and drive it. As a start, I think we have some definite things to try, based on the Flosspolls report: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-women-list/2006-May/msg00001.html At the least, it would be great to read the policies or plans that other science/technical organisations have created, particularly if they have proven successful already. For instance, a list of web addresses, or summaries. In English. You seem like the most well-informed person to do this. Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From luis.villa@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 08:13:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15D1F3B0132 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:13:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01060-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:13:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.200]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 043DA3B012D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:13:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so231597wxd for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 05:13:23 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=M7bRKyNesxOOt+gZaYV1MUy25dv6JMJkayJ3gFzHzPJvfGr3qCJftkHHnjf3gi9gUXLf0cU44gY2K3koUsPKQanX3t6HgTiUZez4vJLgj1VLW5Fh47YL+5aBb+rn/f63MCOnH2lfFwkirZJpcROmSo+ATikyCcARXoGuw4jXOAk= Received: by 10.70.69.8 with SMTP id r8mr613225wxa; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 05:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.2 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 05:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:13:23 -0400 From: "Luis Villa" To: "Murray Cumming" In-Reply-To: <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 12:13:27 -0000 On 6/1/06, Murray Cumming wrote: > Anne wrote: > [snip] > > I do not say this to start a new long debat in this tread. But it has > > become obvious that the 1% participation of women in FLOSS is > > embarrassing and we need to have a look at why this is the case and make > > some cultural changes. > > > > I know that the Computer Science Department at the University of > > Gothenburg in Sweden has a gender action plan: > > http://www.informatik.gu.se/dokument/dokument.xsp?group=jamstalldhet&menu=org > > > > I think that many other universities and even GNOME and Ubuntu could get > > a lot of inspiration here. (Provided it gets translated from Swedish > > into a language you understand.) > [snip] > > Realistically, this plans needs to be written by you. Others will help you > with it, but you need to create it and drive it. Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by someone with such experience. Luis From murrayc@murrayc.com Thu Jun 1 08:39:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4C7A3B0125 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:39:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02694-03 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:39:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com (webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com [66.33.201.159]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D48423B00FF for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:39:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.murrayc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1850D2D23D; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 05:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 194.138.18.131 (proxying for unknown) (SquirrelMail authenticated user murrayc@murrayc.com) by webmail.murrayc.com with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:33:29 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:33:29 +0200 (CEST) From: "Murray Cumming" To: "Luis Villa" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.557 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.042, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.557 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , Murray Cumming , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 12:39:50 -0000 > On 6/1/06, Murray Cumming wrote: >> Anne wrote: >> [snip] >> > I do not say this to start a new long debat in this tread. But it has >> > become obvious that the 1% participation of women in FLOSS is >> > embarrassing and we need to have a look at why this is the case and >> make >> > some cultural changes. >> > >> > I know that the Computer Science Department at the University of >> > Gothenburg in Sweden has a gender action plan: >> > http://www.informatik.gu.se/dokument/dokument.xsp?group=jamstalldhet&menu=org >> > >> > I think that many other universities and even GNOME and Ubuntu could >> get >> > a lot of inspiration here. (Provided it gets translated from Swedish >> > into a language you understand.) >> [snip] >> >> Realistically, this plans needs to be written by you. Others will help >> you >> with it, but you need to create it and drive it. > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > someone with such experience. Hmm, how about people working together? It just seems that the person who most most obviously wants this should be the person trying to make it happen. Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Thu Jun 1 08:50:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E761A3B00AB for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:50:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03032-07 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:50:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E8C033B0090 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:50:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from turing.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.16] helo=turing.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 1 Jun 2006 13:50:48 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 13:50:48 +0100 (IST) From: Alan Horkan Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440605300709u669c5da2sa352f1f5fedf2b06@mail.gmail.com> <14439.194.138.18.131.1149000460.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060530151633.GB28961@bridgewayconsulting.com.au> <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> <177e83dd0605301003h77a01816hed9a3a1afb849709@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 12:50:52 -0000 On Wed, 31 May 2006, Richard Stallman wrote: > Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 15:13:33 -0400 > From: Richard Stallman > To: zuh@iki.fi > Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org > Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct > > So I would definitely agree that given an idea of contributing (code), > women will easily ask who will pay for it where men might not. Maybe > they consider open source more as "working" than as a hobby or a way > social networking or even as a way to educate oneself. > > Perhaps this is a consequence of presenting GNOME as an "open source" > activity. That term excludes the idealism of free software, and > invites people to look at the matter in purely practical terms -- > which is what these women then do. > > Perhaps they would understand better why it's worth spending time > unpaid on our campaign if you tell them that this is the Free Software > Movement, and that the goal of our campaign is freedom for us and for > everyone. If greater clarity and emphasis on freedom is the goal why not say _Freedom Software_ and avoid the abiguity which in part lead other to come up with different terminology? -- Alan From dneary@free.fr Thu Jun 1 09:03:11 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 571E73B01BA for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:03:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04032-05 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:03:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp12.wanadoo.fr (smtp12.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.20]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD9103B01B4 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:03:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf1202.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 05B421C000A2; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:03:06 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060601130307236.05B421C000A2@mwinf1202.orange.fr Message-ID: <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:03:04 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (Windows/20060308) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Luis Villa References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:03:11 -0000 Hi, Luis Villa wrote: > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > someone with such experience. That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a developer from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women involved in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who's better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From luis.villa@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 09:05:29 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB9D83B0213 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:05:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04316-06 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:05:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.198]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 631D63B01F3 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:05:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so240207wxd for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:05:26 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=BYK8lFiLJO2Ne9nZnBwCpaSMHLj/eF+Yve99+fxle95gejqE1Awkf+irqEgrFDLJVaJXbiziS8zWvNXLmkJGfP4p3kJQf/tOBDd7r6d+KgMAdM+DqPT7lTQAgS1L4cgq4N9+8G0/kBVIC9CUKcncJ4u+u6lMyAlrSBwHZV3EH34= Received: by 10.70.6.1 with SMTP id 1mr693092wxf; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:05:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.2 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:05:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:05:26 -0400 From: "Luis Villa" To: "Dave Neary" In-Reply-To: <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:05:30 -0000 On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: > > Hi, > > Luis Villa wrote: > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > > someone with such experience. > > That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a developer > from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women involved > in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct > discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who's > better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? A female geek? Luis From jdub@waugh.id.au Thu Jun 1 09:08:05 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2BE63B0C0E for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:08:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04423-09 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:08:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1F8C3B0134 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:08:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (unknown [203.217.18.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7BA53CDC4 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 23:07:59 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0CBAD40B4; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 23:07:48 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 23:07:48 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060601130748.GE5203@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440605300709u669c5da2sa352f1f5fedf2b06@mail.gmail.com> <14439.194.138.18.131.1149000460.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060530151633.GB28961@bridgewayconsulting.com.au> <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> <177e83dd0605301003h77a01816hed9a3a1afb849709@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: Reply-By: Sun Jun 4 23:06:25 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 23:06:25 up 2:59, 5 users, load average: 3.75, 2.14, 1.64 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:08:05 -0000 > If greater clarity and emphasis on freedom is the goal why not say > _Freedom Software_ and avoid the abiguity which in part lead other to come > up with different terminology? This is not a discussion for this list - please take this off-list if you wish to pursue it. Thanks, - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ From baris@teamforce.name.tr Thu Jun 1 09:27:37 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DD163B016D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:27:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05899-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:27:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nerd.com.tr (nerd.com.tr [69.60.117.115]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC3303B0077 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:27:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nerd.com.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1406B784E6A; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:31:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nerd.com.tr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (nerd.com.tr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15072-01; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:30:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (unknown [81.213.157.51]) by nerd.com.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94F7C784E68; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:30:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Baris Cicek To: Luis Villa In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-nF1xqzLT528vovi3vaHu" Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 16:27:19 +0300 Message-Id: <1149168439.2507.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 (2.6.0-1) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at nerd.com.tr X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.227 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.372, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.227 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:27:37 -0000 --=-nF1xqzLT528vovi3vaHu Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Actually, it should be someone who is able to detect possible obstacles that put Asians or Women out of GNOME (or in general Free Software). I doubt that anyone have any emprical study about that. But is it harsh and rude behavior of developers or the community? Or technical limits? Or even communication problems? (ie. English knowledge or something).=20 First thing is to come up with a reasonable problems that new comers would come across. And later people should follow a pathway to get rid of these obstacles.=20 Actually Code of Conduct may only be successful for new comers if we detect those problems correctly.=20 For that reason, ideas of the fresh community members is more important. If you're experienced then either you did not have any problem or you might even forgot those problems you'd encountered in past. Though, you might still remember old days, but chances are low.=20 IMHO, Code Of Conduct (or GNOME Ethics) should be written for that very reason. Experienced members of the community might and would forget the problems for newcomers. Something should remind them. But still first thing to do is to detect obstacles first. Else, outcome of this work, won't get further than saying "Be nice to each other" with rhetoric.=20 On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 09:05 -0400, Luis Villa wrote: > On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > Luis Villa wrote: > > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > > > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > > > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > > > someone with such experience. > > > > That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a developer > > from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women involve= d > > in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct > > discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who'= s > > better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? >=20 > A female geek? >=20 > Luis > _______________________________________________ > foundation-list mailing list > foundation-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list --=-nF1xqzLT528vovi3vaHu Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEfus362fLHU++kcURAlt/AKDgbHg3XB0HAS5zZDe4MiJSIFoVsACfR8wZ oEU7oK/r87izEkFQB/pm6dU= =aEcr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-nF1xqzLT528vovi3vaHu-- From anne@oestergaard.nu Thu Jun 1 09:32:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A2083B0D3A for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:32:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06362-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:32:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero0.cybercity.dk (cicero0.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.52]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 928443B0C49 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:32:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero0.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 317E1679467 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:32:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id CDC4774FAF2 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:32:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 23827 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2006 13:32:44 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 1 Jun 2006 13:32:44 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Luis Villa In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:32:43 +0200 Message-Id: <1149168764.6894.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.533 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.066, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.533 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:32:56 -0000 tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 09:05 -0400, skrev Luis Villa: > On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > Luis Villa wrote: > > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > > > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > > > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > > > someone with such experience. > > > > That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a developer > > from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women involved > > in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct > > discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who's > > better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? > > A female geek? I would like to hear your definition of a geek, please. Anne From dneary@free.fr Thu Jun 1 09:39:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC0FF3B0D35 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:39:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06719-08 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:39:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.wanadoo.fr (smtp2.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.29]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E48C3B0C49 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:39:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf0203.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 638591C001F4; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:39:31 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060601133931407.638591C001F4@mwinf0203.orange.fr Message-ID: <447EEE11.4000500@free.fr> Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:39:29 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (Windows/20060308) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Anne_=D8stergaard?= References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> <1149168764.6894.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <1149168764.6894.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:39:35 -0000 Anne Østergaard wrote: > tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 09:05 -0400, skrev Luis Villa: >> On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: >>> Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who's >>> better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? >> A female geek? > > I would like to hear your definition of a geek, please. >From my point of view, it's someone who's passionate about software (or more generally, about computers). The GNOME project needs people who are passionate about the freedom of free software who aren't *necessarily* passionate about software, but even then, for tasks other than being a developer, a passion in free software is probably a prerequisite. Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From anne@oestergaard.nu Thu Jun 1 09:39:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 750413B0D40 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:39:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06806-04 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:39:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67D673B0D2E for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:39:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user5.cybercity.dk (user5.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.51]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15A5F2455B0 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:39:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user5.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 9D19C3A1BDE for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:39:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 23975 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2006 13:39:32 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 1 Jun 2006 13:39:32 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Baris Cicek In-Reply-To: <1149168439.2507.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> <1149168439.2507.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:39:31 +0200 Message-Id: <1149169171.6894.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.534 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.065, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.534 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Dave Neary , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:39:36 -0000 tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 16:27 +0300, skrev Baris Cicek: > Actually, it should be someone who is able to detect possible obstacles > that put Asians or Women out of GNOME (or in general Free Software). I > doubt that anyone have any emprical study about that. But is it harsh > and rude behavior of developers or the community? Or technical limits? > Or even communication problems? (ie. English knowledge or something). > > First thing is to come up with a reasonable problems that new comers > would come across. And later people should follow a pathway to get rid > of these obstacles. > > Actually Code of Conduct may only be successful for new comers if we > detect those problems correctly. > > For that reason, ideas of the fresh community members is more important. > If you're experienced then either you did not have any problem or you > might even forgot those problems you'd encountered in past. Though, you > might still remember old days, but chances are low. > > IMHO, Code Of Conduct (or GNOME Ethics) should be written for that very > reason. Experienced members of the community might and would forget the > problems for newcomers. Something should remind them. > > But still first thing to do is to detect obstacles first. Else, outcome > of this work, won't get further than saying "Be nice to each other" with > rhetoric. I agree. A question is when do you feel you belong to the GNOME community? When there is a critical mass that is just like you and when you feel comfortable that a larger group share your way of thinking and ways of communicating? Anne > > > On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 09:05 -0400, Luis Villa wrote: > > On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Luis Villa wrote: > > > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > > > > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > > > > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > > > > someone with such experience. > > > > > > That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a developer > > > from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women involved > > > in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct > > > discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who's > > > better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? > > > > A female geek? > > > > Luis > > _______________________________________________ > > foundation-list mailing list > > foundation-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list > _______________________________________________ > foundation-list mailing list > foundation-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list From luis.villa@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 09:43:23 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF5F03B0173 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:43:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07305-02 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:43:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.196]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55A5F3B016F for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:43:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so246552wxd for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:43:17 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=UPMgxGsuCGu6P9N+IaztKhzWZWnUDGjuB1eu40MxK1NuAYJkPdnf/o0M+7UTRbphbBCZHji5W4uRedT5Trtz+xk2RNZjiehC/nOopS/OtST53stjQnuc+7XXuh50Weobl+tQK3djpBRujGIbYjkUE2DLA14rWpAxVg7jLqLYQt4= Received: by 10.70.40.12 with SMTP id n12mr737638wxn; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.2 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2cb10c440606010643x1dfe5e48mbcf68a2fd0352fae@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:43:16 -0400 From: "Luis Villa" To: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Anne_=D8stergaard?=" In-Reply-To: <1149168764.6894.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> <1149168764.6894.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:43:23 -0000 On 6/1/06, Anne =D8stergaard wrote: > tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 09:05 -0400, skrev Luis Villa: > > On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Luis Villa wrote: > > > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > > > > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer= *- > > > > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > > > > someone with such experience. > > > > > > That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a develop= er > > > from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women invol= ved > > > in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct > > > discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so wh= o's > > > better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-gee= k? > > > > A female geek? > > I would like to hear your definition of a geek, please. For the purposes of this discussion, 'someone actively involved in the development of our software through the traditional means used by our community'. This need not be direct software development (as everyone knows I do very little of that) but it does mean involvement in creating the product that we ship, and it does mean at least some participation in the mainstream of the community- desktop-devel-list, #gnome-hackers, etc. Luis From luis.villa@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 09:44:24 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5D663B016F for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:44:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07262-08 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:44:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.204]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 506EE3B0C49 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:44:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so246728wxd for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:44:21 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=GpGdnRDgVSS/SWZsX5U/sj0RXmGEYdgzgsLRzSM+2rgcLIebl2EPo+MS4FanUY2lt0S3HLELDWKLXUSbRRWSN6qQyccniZtM40z1wcvwVutMlhGHZPV/Mzbh3m8X54uRlE259+XeTT7pIYL1LFWvkKL6SI6TjBXi5UKvO5I6d5s= Received: by 10.70.6.1 with SMTP id 1mr746819wxf; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:44:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.2 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:44:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2cb10c440606010644s5af56377jb43c1e88b33192b2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:44:21 -0400 From: "Luis Villa" To: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Anne_=D8stergaard?=" In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010643x1dfe5e48mbcf68a2fd0352fae@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <447EE588.1070706@free.fr> <2cb10c440606010605w3349f43aif114f0a7e4c371d2@mail.gmail.com> <1149168764.6894.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2cb10c440606010643x1dfe5e48mbcf68a2fd0352fae@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:44:24 -0000 On 6/1/06, Luis Villa wrote: > On 6/1/06, Anne =D8stergaard wrote: > > tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 09:05 -0400, skrev Luis Villa: > > > On 6/1/06, Dave Neary wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > Luis Villa wrote: > > > > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > > > > > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a develop= er*- > > > > > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > > > > > someone with such experience. > > > > > > > > That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a devel= oper > > > > from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women inv= olved > > > > in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct > > > > discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so = who's > > > > better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-g= eek? > > > > > > A female geek? > > > > I would like to hear your definition of a geek, please. > > For the purposes of this discussion, 'someone actively involved in the > development of our software through the traditional means used by our > community'. This need not be direct software development (as everyone > knows I do very little of that) but it does mean involvement in > creating the product that we ship, and it does mean at least some > participation in the mainstream of the community- desktop-devel-list, > #gnome-hackers, etc. And I might add that the reason this is important is that it seems to me insane that someone could devise policy to get people involved in something they have not themselves participated in. Luis From anne@oestergaard.nu Thu Jun 1 09:59:39 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 831943B01C4 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:59:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08905-06 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:59:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero1.cybercity.dk (cicero1.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55B103B009D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:59:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user3.cybercity.dk (user3.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.36]) by cicero1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39B0D63ED41 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:59:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user3.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id E770393E9B for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:59:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 24279 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2006 13:59:34 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 1 Jun 2006 13:59:34 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Luis Villa In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:59:34 +0200 Message-Id: <1149170374.6894.73.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.535 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.064, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.535 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:59:39 -0000 tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 08:13 -0400, skrev Luis Villa: > On 6/1/06, Murray Cumming wrote: > > Anne wrote: > > [snip] > > > I do not say this to start a new long debat in this tread. But it has > > > become obvious that the 1% participation of women in FLOSS is > > > embarrassing and we need to have a look at why this is the case and make > > > some cultural changes. > > > > > > I know that the Computer Science Department at the University of > > > Gothenburg in Sweden has a gender action plan: > > > http://www.informatik.gu.se/dokument/dokument.xsp?group=jamstalldhet&menu=org > > > > > > I think that many other universities and even GNOME and Ubuntu could get > > > a lot of inspiration here. (Provided it gets translated from Swedish > > > into a language you understand.) > > [snip] > > > > Realistically, this plans needs to be written by you. Others will help you > > with it, but you need to create it and drive it. > > Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been > involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- > which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by > someone with such experience. The FLOSSPOLS report was so eyeopening because it was written by a man who had to learn about these matters first and had a professional scientific experience and tool case to use. I will work with the whole of the women in FLOSS community as well as with the persons who wrote the FLOSSPOLS reports and others who have written scientific reports and with those of you who are interested. Just because you can't cover the whole spectrum personally does not mean that I am not entitled to have an opinion. I have experience in gender issues on a professional basis in the Nordic Countries, EU, and UN which might help. I attended the UN conference in Beijing representing the Nordic Council. Besides Luis I have manufactured a FLOSS nerd many years ago so I have access to free in house expertise on the technical matters. Have you by the way had time to read the FLOSSPOLS report yourself? Anne From hobbit@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk Thu Jun 1 10:28:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 033D03B009D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:28:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11133-10 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:28:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk [81.2.110.251]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F8913B0262 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:28:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (8.13.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id k51Dg9xP016043 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:42:09 +0100 Received: (from hobbit@localhost) by lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k51Dg8iZ016042 for foundation-list@gnome.org; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:42:08 +0100 Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:42:08 +0100 From: Telsa Gwynne To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060601134208.GA14011@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.503 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.096, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.503 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:28:54 -0000 Ar Tue, May 30, 2006 at 01:04:43PM +0200, ysgrifennodd Murray Cumming: > I don't think we need a whole organisation to police it. At the least, it > should just be how we expect people to behave on mailing lists and IRC and > it could be up to the administrator of that list or channel to decide > whether somone's conduct is unacceptable. But maybe some people would be > reassured by the existence of some group that they could go to in extreme > circumstances. > > Here's a simple start: > http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct > > What do you think? What else would you like to see there? I think this is a long-overdue thing to do. I also think that there is no fun being part of a "community" which is actually arguing the toss on whether "we think people should be courteous to each other within this community" is a good thing or not. Telsa From liam@holoweb.net Thu Jun 1 10:32:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6566A3B0225 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:32:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11652-07 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:32:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hd-t1637cl.privatedns.com (ip-209-172-34-239.reverse.privatedns.com [209.172.34.239]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7180F3B023E for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:32:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 28816 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2006 14:41:31 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO dell.barefootcomputing.com) (127.0.0.1) by hd-t1637cl.privatedns.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2006 14:41:31 -0000 From: Liam R E Quin To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149065540.5127.117.camel@localhost> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 10:29:53 -0400 Message-Id: <1149172193.8916.108.camel@dell.barefootcomputing.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1-1mdk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.564 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.035, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.564 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:32:47 -0000 On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 13:23 +0200, Anne Østergaard wrote: [...] > I have personally had the feeling over the past couple of years that the > general atmosphere in the GNOME community has hardened. Although I am not sure what you mean by hardened here, it doesn't sound good. > I fully agree with Bill and others here and I think we have to establish > a gender action plan within GNOME, Ubuntu etc. A non-discrimination policy would be a useful thing to do. The city of Toronto has a fairly good one, devised in conjunction with a large number of minority groups over a long period: http://www.toronto.ca/grants/pdf/declaration_non_discrimination_policy.pdf It was printed on a huge multilingual poster (including Braille) and distributed widely. Creation or adoption of such a policy is not the same as saying that there is discrimination, of course -- it is saying that discrimination isn't OK. Gnome has done ground-breaking work on accessibility, on internationalisation, and on usability. This work ought to be sending a strong message that diversity is welcomed. Beyond that I am not sure how to get more women involved. One difficulty is cultural in many parts of the world, unfortunately: girls are often trained to turn to boys when something needs fixing. To get back on topic of the original thread, I'd rather see some non-discrimination non-violence policies in place and then a code of conduct would consist of "follow the guidelines". Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org From luis.villa@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 11:11:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91A883B023D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:11:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14988-04 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:11:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.206]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 492373B01C4 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:11:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so262700wxd for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 08:11:10 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=c7nCkDAeUk9IARaAuoVqYt1X9YWo84LfbEM3sclWHemKQVbV6XZwhimTvwKq3L7pxQHE+osmIJDrNectrnGDL6lD3NLgBJO3tf9krWJaNK9P7mHIyFopDtnCN3soWOcj6dmTUZqcs/v2wRK7V/1rovRn7brKfqTNc4J/9yQMHak= Received: by 10.70.89.7 with SMTP id m7mr842070wxb; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 08:11:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.2 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:11:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2cb10c440606010811p27d3a2cfk1d834f6e2ca01d74@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:11:10 -0400 From: "Luis Villa" To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <20060601134208.GA14011@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060601134208.GA14011@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:11:13 -0000 On 6/1/06, Telsa Gwynne wrote: > Ar Tue, May 30, 2006 at 01:04:43PM +0200, ysgrifennodd Murray Cumming: > > I don't think we need a whole organisation to police it. At the least, it > > should just be how we expect people to behave on mailing lists and IRC and > > it could be up to the administrator of that list or channel to decide > > whether somone's conduct is unacceptable. But maybe some people would be > > reassured by the existence of some group that they could go to in extreme > > circumstances. > > > > Here's a simple start: > > http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct > > > > What do you think? What else would you like to see there? > > I think this is a long-overdue thing to do. > > I also think that there is no fun being part of a "community" which is > actually arguing the toss on whether "we think people should be courteous > to each other within this community" is a good thing or not. I don't think anyone is arguing against being courteous; I'm certainly not. I just think we'd be better off focusing on actually making people more courteous, instead of writing rules about it. Luis From david.bolter@utoronto.ca Thu Jun 1 11:26:26 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5FB23B0D6C for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:26:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16176-02 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:26:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bureau8.utcc.utoronto.ca (bureau8.utcc.utoronto.ca [128.100.132.18]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CC433B027D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:26:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from otter.atrc.utoronto.ca ([142.150.154.224] EHLO [142.150.154.224] ident: IDENT-NOT-QUERIED [port 36999]) by bureau8.utcc.utoronto.ca with ESMTP id <25261-25808>; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:23:26 -0400 Message-ID: <447F066B.3020108@utoronto.ca> Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:23:23 -0400 From: David Bolter User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060420) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Luis Villa References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060601134208.GA14011@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> <2cb10c440606010811p27d3a2cfk1d834f6e2ca01d74@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010811p27d3a2cfk1d834f6e2ca01d74@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.564 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.035, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.564 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:26:27 -0000 Luis Villa wrote: > On 6/1/06, Telsa Gwynne wrote: >> Ar Tue, May 30, 2006 at 01:04:43PM +0200, ysgrifennodd Murray Cumming: >> > I don't think we need a whole organisation to police it. At the >> least, it >> > should just be how we expect people to behave on mailing lists and >> IRC and >> > it could be up to the administrator of that list or channel to decide >> > whether somone's conduct is unacceptable. But maybe some people >> would be >> > reassured by the existence of some group that they could go to in >> extreme >> > circumstances. >> > >> > Here's a simple start: >> > http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct >> > >> > What do you think? What else would you like to see there? >> >> I think this is a long-overdue thing to do. >> >> I also think that there is no fun being part of a "community" which is >> actually arguing the toss on whether "we think people should be >> courteous >> to each other within this community" is a good thing or not. > > I don't think anyone is arguing against being courteous; I'm certainly > not. I just think we'd be better off focusing on actually making > people more courteous, instead of writing rules about it. > I sense we are all close to agreeing here... I think the fear is the idea that rules will restrict us. The GPL is very restrictive but isn't that what makes GPL software so free? I like the idea of having guidelines that suggest the protection of people from discrimination. Being a shy Canadian... if I was on IRC witnessing silliness I would like the option of politely pointing someone to a guidelines wiki page than actually arguing with them. cheers, David From uraeus@linuxrising.org Thu Jun 1 11:36:19 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 675EB3B0DDC for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:36:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16890-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:36:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx1.es6.egwn.net (server02.es6.egwn.net [195.10.6.12]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1B253B02A2 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:36:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.235] (core.fluendo.com [195.10.6.237]) by mx1.es6.egwn.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 788BA4F8310 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:36:15 +0200 (CEST) From: Christian Fredrik Kalager Schaller To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149065540.5127.117.camel@localhost> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 17:34:53 +0200 Message-Id: <1149176093.2487.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 (2.6.1-1.fc5.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.056 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.057, BAYES_50=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -0.056 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:36:19 -0000 On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 13:23 +0200, Anne Østergaard wrote: > I have personally had the feeling over the past couple of years that the > general atmosphere in the GNOME community has hardened. > I don't think its has hardened as much as grown older. Going back 5 years we where 'all' in our early/mid twenties or late teens with a lot extra energy and exploring a new frontier. Today a lot of the same people are around, getting close to or having passed thirty. Hair is thinning, greying or receding, bellies growing and the long term effect of a coke and pizza diet is taking its toll on both mind and body. These people have grown wise with age, but also their patience and energy to help newbie number 1000 who asks a less informed question have fallen. So answers tend either to not be forthcoming or being short often feeling a bit curt, maybe just a 'sorry WONTFIX'. The regrowth of younger developers, who might have the energy to devote to helping the lost noobs, tend to want to defer answering questions to the old wizards in the fear of saying something wrong as things have also grown more complicated since those early days. I don't think we can solve this apart from enforcing retirement from the community once passed 30 to keep our average young and energetic :) Christian From alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk Thu Jun 1 11:39:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E01953B02D6 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:39:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17200-01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:39:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from out.lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (unknown [81.2.110.250]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E049C3B0215 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:39:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by out.lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k51Dve6a014608; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 15:00:22 +0100 Received: (from alan@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.4/8.13.4/Submit) id k51Dvd2O014606; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:57:39 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: alan set sender to alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk using -f From: Alan Cox To: Murray Cumming In-Reply-To: <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:57:33 +0100 Message-Id: <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.3 (2.2.3-2.fc4) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.593 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.006, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.593 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:39:56 -0000 On Iau, 2006-06-01 at 14:33 +0200, Murray Cumming wrote: > Hmm, how about people working together? It just seems that the person who > most most obviously wants this should be the person trying to make it > happen. I'd be wary of pursuing just the "women in GNOME" issue, because many of the same things put off far more than just women. Running around shouting "pants off" is not, for example, very compatible with the Japanese cultural expectations. Also if "Code of Conduct" is too strong then "Expected Behaviour" perhaps. Personally I don't see a problem with "Code of Conduct" in that it deals with acting for, speaking for, representing or being part of Gnome, or when using its facilities. It isn't too much to ask for people to keep other stuff elsewhere, or to engage in other incompatible activities from a non-gnome email address or on a different irc network. Alan From shaunm@gnome.org Thu Jun 1 11:51:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E25B3B0215 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:51:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17493-09 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:51:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wolfram.com (mailhub.wolfram.com [140.177.10.16]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC8F63B02D6 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 11:51:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shaunmlx.wri.wolfram.com (shaunmlx.wri.wolfram.com [140.177.4.54]) (authenticated bits=0) by wolfram.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k51FpH0N012193 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:51:18 -0500 From: Shaun McCance To: Dave Neary In-Reply-To: <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440605300709u669c5da2sa352f1f5fedf2b06@mail.gmail.com> <14439.194.138.18.131.1149000460.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060530151633.GB28961@bridgewayconsulting.com.au> <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 10:51:17 -0500 Message-Id: <1149177077.31607.13.camel@shaunmlx> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.527 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.072, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.527 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming , Davyd Madeley Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 15:51:45 -0000 On Tue, 2006-05-30 at 17:31 +0200, Dave Neary wrote: > Hi, > > Davyd Madeley wrote: > > Also of interest, a (female) colleague asked where we're getting our > > 1% contribution statistic from. It sounds believable, but is it > > people with CVS accounts, or does it include translators who send > > translations to their i18n team leader. Did someone just look > > through a list of names and guess the genders? Similarly for > > "asianness" (sic). Are we just using the domain names on their > > email addresses? > > The 1% comes from the FLOSS-POLS report on women in free software, among > others. Hanna Wallach's presented a 1.5% figure from that result before: > http://grandtextauto.gatech.edu/2005/11/22/debian-women/ > > That's 1.5% in free software compared to 28% in proprietary software. I'd be interested in seeing the raw numbers. My experience in the proprietary software industry is that there tends to be a reasonably high percentage of women in technical jobs that aren't necessarily programming (though they may involve some programming), such as project management, tech writing, graphic design, and quality assurance. All of these positions tend to be under-represented in the free software world, at least among volunteer efforts. I'm not trying to say that we need more of these positions just to inflate our gender numbers (though I will say we need more of these positions for other reasons). All I'm saying is that the free and proprietary numbers might be measuring slightly different things, and that the proprietary software industry might not be as well integrated as indicated. -- Shaun From murrayc@murrayc.com Thu Jun 1 12:57:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E33E13B0236 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 12:57:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22029-06 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 12:57:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swarthymail-a1.dreamhost.com (ip-208-97-132-53.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 460493B0115 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 12:57:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from noname (p5497F70E.dip.t-dialin.net [84.151.247.14]) by swarthymail-a1.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D70690DF8; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:57:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Murray Cumming To: Alan Cox In-Reply-To: <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 18:57:44 +0200 Message-Id: <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.507 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.092, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.507 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 16:57:54 -0000 On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 14:57 +0100, Alan Cox wrote: > On Iau, 2006-06-01 at 14:33 +0200, Murray Cumming wrote: > > Hmm, how about people working together? It just seems that the person who > > most most obviously wants this should be the person trying to make it > > happen. > > I'd be wary of pursuing just the "women in GNOME" issue, because many of > the same things put off far more than just women. Yes, that's why the gender issue is only one (possible) part of the code of conduct, though it's the reason that I got around to finally pushing it. But Anne is asking specifically for a gender policy/plan, apparently separate to that. I'd just like her to make a suggestion. > Running around > shouting "pants off" is not, for example, very compatible with the > Japanese cultural expectations. > > Also if "Code of Conduct" is too strong then "Expected Behaviour" > perhaps. Personally I don't see a problem with "Code of Conduct" in that > it deals with acting for, speaking for, representing or being part of > Gnome, or when using its facilities. > > It isn't too much to ask for people to keep other stuff elsewhere, or to > engage in other incompatible activities from a non-gnome email address > or on a different irc network. -- Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From anne@oestergaard.nu Thu Jun 1 16:22:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B3E13B0345 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:22:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04031-09 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:22:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61F4C3B0350 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:22:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user5.cybercity.dk (user5.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.51]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 296332450B9 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 22:21:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user5.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id D218D3A1CEA for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 22:21:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 29142 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2006 20:21:57 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 1 Jun 2006 20:21:57 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Murray Cumming In-Reply-To: <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 22:21:56 +0200 Message-Id: <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.536 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.063, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.536 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Alan Cox Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 20:22:13 -0000 tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 18:57 +0200, skrev Murray Cumming: > On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 14:57 +0100, Alan Cox wrote: > > On Iau, 2006-06-01 at 14:33 +0200, Murray Cumming wrote: > > > Hmm, how about people working together? It just seems that the person who > > > most most obviously wants this should be the person trying to make it > > > happen. > > > > I'd be wary of pursuing just the "women in GNOME" issue, because many of > > the same things put off far more than just women. Yes. > Yes, that's why the gender issue is only one (possible) part of the code > of conduct, though it's the reason that I got around to finally pushing > it. > > But Anne is asking specifically for a gender policy/plan, apparently > separate to that. I'd just like her to make a suggestion. I think it is a natural step to take after the EU and FLOSSPOLS report has shown that women are being excluded from the community.- If we want to se some change in attitudes and behavior in GNOME and FLOSS, and se more women involved in the future in all parts and capacities of our projects, we need to find out why only a little more than 1% of are women. > > Running around > > shouting "pants off" is not, for example, very compatible with the > > Japanese cultural expectations. I don't expect it either. > > Also if "Code of Conduct" is too strong then "Expected Behaviour" > > perhaps. Personally I don't see a problem with "Code of Conduct" in that > > it deals with acting for, speaking for, representing or being part of > > Gnome, or when using its facilities. I fully agree. Anne From gpoo@ubiobio.cl Thu Jun 1 16:30:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FCD53B0F5A for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:30:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04723-03 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:30:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay.ubiobio.cl (atlas.dci.ubiobio.cl [146.83.195.21]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18FC33B0DF6 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:30:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by forward.ubiobio.cl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85A3A400341; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:29:06 -0400 (CLT) Received: from pegasus.dci.ubiobio.cl ([146.83.195.11]) by localhost (antivirus.dci.ubiobio.cl [146.83.195.21]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04672-54; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:29:05 -0400 (CLT) Received: from mimos.local (unknown [146.83.198.86]) by pegasus.dci.ubiobio.cl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87AB32804423; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:30:33 -0400 (CLT) From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Germ=E1n_Po=F3_Caama=F1o?= To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 16:30:37 -0400 Message-Id: <1149193838.15278.79.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at ubiobio.cl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.414 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.414 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Alan Cox , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 20:30:49 -0000 On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 22:21 +0200, Anne Østergaard wrote: > tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 18:57 +0200, skrev Murray Cumming: > > On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 14:57 +0100, Alan Cox wrote: > [...] > > > Also if "Code of Conduct" is too strong then "Expected Behaviour" > > > perhaps. Personally I don't see a problem with "Code of Conduct" in that > > > it deals with acting for, speaking for, representing or being part of > > > Gnome, or when using its facilities. > > I fully agree. Some part of this already exists for a long time ago. But, at the moment it is only applied to mail aliases: http://developer.gnome.org/doc/policies/accounts/mail.html The proposal is a kind of extension of that policy, but in the other way (saying what is good). -- Germán Poó-Caamaño http://www.ubiobio.cl/~gpoo/ Concepción - Chile From dneary@free.fr Thu Jun 1 17:13:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ECC13B03C7 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:13:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07168-10 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:13:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp3-g19.free.fr (smtp3-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.29]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4C0B3B035E for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:13:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp3-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8B524970D; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 23:13:42 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <447F5885.8080600@free.fr> Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 23:13:41 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.8 (X11/20060502) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Anne_=D8stergaard?= References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.573 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.026, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.573 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Luis Villa , Alan Cox , Jeff Waugh , foundation-list@gnome.org, Murray Cumming Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 21:13:46 -0000 Hi, Anne Østergaard wrote: > tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 18:57 +0200, skrev Murray Cumming: > I think it is a natural step to take after the EU and FLOSSPOLS report > has shown that women are being excluded from the community.- What I've seen shows that women are not participating in the community - this is not necessarily the same thing as being excluded (which implies some kind of conscious decision on the part of "the community"). Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From domlachowicz@gmail.com Thu Jun 1 17:50:06 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A76A3B029F for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:50:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09033-03 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:50:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.201]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6E823B0323 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:50:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so326172wxd for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:50:04 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=EQz0j9dnYEQkJhXAWayQpR6Xs35ItnM88LGVKIs10TURvWQmE6UuwzzLxOzpt1X2dwvby4ZelOufGT05N2Yikg+fSfXy2u6eVp3ujRO/pA1QWEdDbOk22uuXhBzixogXA7P1933/m5QcoH1eLyDgDl9Ylk6aELLr4sukH7cNQ6c= Received: by 10.70.102.11 with SMTP id z11mr1409705wxb; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.105.2 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2672cf4d0606011450m58601cadq2f8694e2968d753c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:50:04 -0400 From: "Dominic Lachowicz" To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.452 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.148, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.452 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 21:50:06 -0000 > I think it is a natural step to take after the EU and FLOSSPOLS report > has shown that women are being excluded from the community.- This rubs me the wrong way. It's not like we're actively working to exclude women, Asians, or Martians from GNOME. Nor are we actively trying to make GNOME a boys-only club. Simply put, there's no conscious, malicious intent behind the disproportionate male/female ratio, or "Western"/Asian ratio. And I think that this matters... > If we want to se some change in attitudes and behavior in GNOME and > FLOSS, and se more women involved in the future in all parts and > capacities of our projects, we need to find out why only a little more > than 1% of are women. ... because I don't believe that actively pursuing "diversity" for its own sake is a valid goal. I may sound myopic here, but I don't see what the goal of recruiting women qua women or Asians qua Asians gains us as a community. I refuse to measure diversity based on one's genitals or skin color. [However, (for example) recruiting Asians as an attempt to understand their needs, skills, and mentality in order to acquire a greater Asian market share, however, could be ok. Asians are the means. A rockin' version of GNOME on lots of Asian computers is the end.] Instituting open-door policies, non-discriminatory policies/"codes of conduct", and the like are worthwhile goals in-and-of themselves. They advertise what the core tenets of our community are, and this is something we should become better at. But one should not necessarily abandon established (nay, endearing) traits of our community just to grow it larger. You'd give up something concretely cool about the community for some undefined, possibly non-existant benefit. And that ain't diversity, it's its opposite. I'd rather see us resolve to do a better job of marketing how open, cool, and charismatic we are as a community, and let the chips fall where they will. Get the word out to as many people as practicable, welcome everyone, and let the diversity come to us as an organic result of our general openness and coolness. Where we have some specific goal in mind, change as necessary to meet that goal. But don't change for change's sake alone. Recruit interesting people. Recruit smart, talented people. Recruit people useful for your ends. Welcome all people. But don't recruit genitals and skin colors. They're neither interesting nor useful for free software's purposes. Justice is blind, and so should we be. Best, Dom -- Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums. From jdub@waugh.id.au Thu Jun 1 21:05:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 763FE3B0F8D for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:05:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20266-06 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:05:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 674FB3B0FA8 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:05:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (ppp121-112.static.internode.on.net [150.101.121.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89CA13C573 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:05:29 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2569D40B4; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:05:26 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:05:26 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060602010526.GE5138@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060601134208.GA14011@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> <2cb10c440606010811p27d3a2cfk1d834f6e2ca01d74@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440606010811p27d3a2cfk1d834f6e2ca01d74@mail.gmail.com> Reply-By: Mon Jun 5 11:01:11 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 11:01:11 up 10:53, 6 users, load average: 0.23, 0.11, 0.16 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.445 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.445 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Isn't and Wasn't "Rules" [Was: Code Of Conduct] X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 01:05:33 -0000 > I don't think anyone is arguing against being courteous; I'm certainly > not. I just think we'd be better off focusing on actually making people > more courteous, instead of writing rules about it. I think most everyone else has got out of the "characterising it as rules" thing already. It's pretty obvious that's not what Murray's suggesting, or what we're (slowly, consensus-gridlock-ly) buying into. I think a fun way to deal with this criticism ('cos it's valid and expected) is to actually make it a Very GNOMEy Code of Conduct. Let's not beat around the bush - first point: "Be Excellent to Each Other". *guitar lick* - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ "To do: Start up a a magazine dedicated to picky grammar. Call it 'Whom Weekly'." - WzDD From jdub@waugh.id.au Thu Jun 1 21:08:39 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ED713B0D7A for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:08:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20777-05 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:08:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72BFD3B0196 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:08:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (ppp121-112.static.internode.on.net [150.101.121.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEA123C31C for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:08:35 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3CEC340B4; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:08:32 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:08:32 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060602010832.GF5138@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060601134208.GA14011@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> <2cb10c440606010811p27d3a2cfk1d834f6e2ca01d74@mail.gmail.com> <20060602010526.GE5138@waugh.id.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060602010526.GE5138@waugh.id.au> Reply-By: Mon Jun 5 11:08:22 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 11:08:22 up 11:00, 6 users, load average: 0.01, 0.04, 0.09 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.445 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.445 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Isn't and Wasn't "Rules" [Was: Code Of Conduct] X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 01:08:39 -0000 > I think a fun way to deal with this criticism ('cos it's valid and > expected) is to actually make it a Very GNOMEy Code of Conduct. Let's not > beat around the bush - first point: "Be Excellent to Each Other". > > *guitar lick* (added this point to the wiki page) - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2007: Sydney, Australia http://lca2007.linux.org.au/ "I don't want the world, I just want your half." - They Might Be Giants, Ana Ng From murrayc@murrayc.com Fri Jun 2 03:16:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 278B63B1058 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 03:16:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05391-08 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 03:16:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail2.sd.dreamhost.com (webmail2.sd.dreamhost.com [66.33.201.157]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3157B3B1008 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 03:16:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.murrayc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by webmail2.sd.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6311ADC71B; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 00:16:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 194.138.18.132 (proxying for unknown) (SquirrelMail authenticated user murrayc@murrayc.com) by webmail.murrayc.com with HTTP; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 09:16:43 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <44634.194.138.18.132.1149232603.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606011450m58601cadq2f8694e2968d753c@mail.gmail.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606011450m58601cadq2f8694e2968d753c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 09:16:43 +0200 (CEST) From: "Murray Cumming" To: "Dominic Lachowicz" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.557 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.042, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.557 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 07:16:48 -0000 >> I think it is a natural step to take after the EU and FLOSSPOLS report >> has shown that women are being excluded from the community.- > > This rubs me the wrong way. It's not like we're actively working to > exclude women, Asians, or Martians from GNOME. Nor are we actively > trying to make GNOME a boys-only club. Simply put, there's no > conscious, malicious intent behind the disproportionate male/female > ratio, or "Western"/Asian ratio. And I think that this matters... Yet it may require conscious intent to fix it. >> If we want to se some change in attitudes and behavior in GNOME and >> FLOSS, and se more women involved in the future in all parts and >> capacities of our projects, we need to find out why only a little more >> than 1% of are women. > > ... because I don't believe that actively pursuing "diversity" for its > own sake is a valid goal. I may sound myopic here, but I don't see > what the goal of recruiting women qua women or Asians qua Asians gains > us as a community. Other than the obvious morally repellent idea that we might be perceived as unwelcoming to arbitrary large groups of people [1], there are plenty of selfish reasons for doing this: - We are a worldwide project aiming to create a project to make the world a better place for humanity, so we really should be trying our best to involve representative parts of the world in that. It makes it more likely that we will create a product that helps with their goals. - Women + Asia are two huge groups of potential contributors. That many contributors can make a huge contribution if we can get them on board. [1] The idea is so awful that we should be doing whatever we can even if we are not sure that it's going to work or that we are the cause, certainly as long as those things are not going to hurt us. What we have to gain is far more than we have to lose. > I refuse to measure diversity based on one's > genitals or skin color. > > [However, (for example) recruiting Asians as an attempt to understand > their needs, skills, and mentality in order to acquire a greater Asian > market share, however, could be ok. Asians are the means. A rockin' > version of GNOME on lots of Asian computers is the end.] > > Instituting open-door policies, non-discriminatory policies/"codes of > conduct", and the like are worthwhile goals in-and-of themselves. They > advertise what the core tenets of our community are, and this is > something we should become better at. But one should not necessarily > abandon established (nay, endearing) traits of our community just to > grow it larger. You'd give up something concretely cool about the > community for some undefined, possibly non-existant benefit. And that > ain't diversity, it's its opposite. > > I'd rather see us resolve to do a better job of marketing how open, > cool, and charismatic we are as a community, and let the chips fall > where they will. Get the word out to as many people as practicable, > welcome everyone, and let the diversity come to us as an organic > result of our general openness and coolness. Where we have some > specific goal in mind, change as necessary to meet that goal. But > don't change for change's sake alone. > > Recruit interesting people. Recruit smart, talented people. Recruit > people useful for your ends. Welcome all people. But don't recruit > genitals and skin colors. They're neither interesting nor useful for > free software's purposes. Justice is blind, and so should we be. This unfortunately ignores the conclusion that many have made that some groups will not feel at home in a community until their are people like them in the community. To get to that critical mass we may need to help the process along a bit. I think Callum said it well: http://spooky-possum.org/cgi-bin/pyblosxom.cgi/womenoss.html The code of conduct doesn't try to address that directly, however. It's just a small part of it. Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From dneary@free.fr Fri Jun 2 11:12:08 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B8BE3B0492; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:12:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02791-04; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:12:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.wanadoo.fr (smtp1.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.30]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 714393B045D; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:12:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf0101.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id DE51F1C00250; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:12:03 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060602151203910.DE51F1C00250@mwinf0101.orange.fr Message-ID: <44805543.9030503@free.fr> Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 17:12:03 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Foundation-List , Advisory Board X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Co-option of Quim Gil to the board X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:12:08 -0000 Hi, When Luis announced to the board that he wanted to resign [1] a couple of weeks ago, the board discussed our options - referendum or co-option. We felt that co-opting a new member onto the board, on the basis of the election results last December, was the best way to select the newest member of the board. Our decision was made easy by the fact that since the election, this person has gone on to become a heavyweight in the GNOME community in very short order. So without further ado, I'd like to announce that the board has decided to co-opt Quim Gil onto the board into the vacant position left by Luis Villa, effective immediately. We're all sorry to see Luis leave the board, but I have a feeling that this means we'll be hearing even more from him in the future. I'd like to wish him all the best in his budding legal career. Welcome on board, Quim. Cheers, Dave. [1] http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/06/01/resigning-from-the-board/ -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From anne@oestergaard.nu Fri Jun 2 11:20:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 323583B0508 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:20:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03437-07 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:20:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero1.cybercity.dk (cicero1.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1D7C3B01DB for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:20:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EE2A63F49B for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:20:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 66BAF750595 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:20:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 7791 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2006 15:20:29 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 2 Jun 2006 15:20:29 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: foundation-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 17:20:29 +0200 Message-Id: <1149261629.6843.46.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.4.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.33 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.145, BAYES_40=-0.185] X-Spam-Score: -1.33 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Denmark to follow in the foot steps of Massachuchets on open standards X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:20:34 -0000 Denmark to follow in the foot steps of Massachuchets on open standards. Half an hour ago the Danish Parliament, Folketinget voted on B 103 on introducing open standards in the state administration: The short version: " To introduce and maintain a set of open standards from January 1st 2008 or if this is not possible as soon as it is technically possible". All voters, 113 voted in favor. This means that the Minister Of Science, Technology and Innovation has to make a law proposal at present it in the next session of Folketinget after the sommer vacation. This is a huge step forward for kompetition and interoperability in the software sector. Best wishes Anne From luis.villa@gmail.com Fri Jun 2 11:42:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4D6B3B0135 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:42:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04691-10 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:42:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.207]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C508B3B0487 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:42:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so573067wxd for ; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 08:42:41 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=alaXrWnB7HFYQ//qRQWu01yX6KdjMGVhaJlybNLM3KO7RMd5Uc4kem7mi8uVGw8RntB0znpdBPAwJGaZl1JIHs04AUo1LEXRBhVBM0027t55glEdEsh/X/4An6icYfYVvGITMl38FizG9Hsn0KfHIvq62jL7wLvvcynRswYJQiA= Received: by 10.70.105.9 with SMTP id d9mr2597990wxc; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 08:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.2 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 08:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2cb10c440606020842r42c3eed1v9b9fb9796cffc37e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:42:39 -0400 From: "Luis Villa" To: "Dave Neary" In-Reply-To: <44805543.9030503@free.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <44805543.9030503@free.fr> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Foundation-List Subject: Re: Co-option of Quim Gil to the board X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:42:48 -0000 On 6/2/06, Dave Neary wrote: > We're all sorry to see Luis leave the > board, but I have a feeling that this means we'll be hearing even more > from him in the future. I'd like to wish him all the best in his budding > legal career. Should have announced that here first, of course :) My mistake. To paraphrase what I said on the blog post, when I ran for board this year, I mentioned that I'd be AWOL towards the end of the term, but I miscalculated for how long. Given that it would have been roughly 1/2 of the term, I decided to resign as quickly as the correct replacement could be found. Given Quim's excellent leadership of GUADEC so far, I have every confidence that he'll do an excellent job of it. It has been an honor and a pleasure to be elected to the board as many times as I have- I owe a big debt of thanks to everyone who has supported me over the years. I hope I've served well and fulfilled your expectations. Luis From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Fri Jun 2 17:59:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF3F63B0424 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:59:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26906-01 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:59:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 02A003B0408 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:59:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 6750 invoked by uid 0); 2 Jun 2006 21:59:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.34]) (83.42.203.236) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 21:59:45 +0000 From: Quim Gil To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <4480555C.8070702@free.fr> References: <4480555C.8070702@free.fr> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-We/bITLkFRm0xgU/rk3X" Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 23:59:45 +0200 Message-Id: <1149285585.4975.205.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.499, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Co-option of Quim Gil to the board X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 21:59:52 -0000 --=-We/bITLkFRm0xgU/rk3X Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El dv 02 de 06 del 2006 a les 17:12 +0200, en/na Dave Neary va escriure: > Welcome on board, Quim. Thank you for the trust. Where is the manual? Throw me some tasks... to be started really on July 1st. Let me say thanks to Murray for the ignition, thanks to Dave for the companion and thanks to Luis... not for leaving but for being a referent in many aspects. I still don't know what he does all the time with the bugsquashers ;) but reading him here and there is always a constructive experience. And thanks of course to the open, friendly and welcoming GNOME community, that I'm getting to know in various aspects from my seat at the GUADEC ticket window.=20 For the administrativia and the transparency:=20 I was still affiliated to interactors.coop when I presented candidacy last December, but on January I was already independent and self-employed. Since then I'm working part time for GUADEC 2006, being paid by the Information Society office of the Catalan government (this could be considered my current affiliation) until July 15th. =20 --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-We/bITLkFRm0xgU/rk3X Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEgLTRBEzHYk6x634RAus1AKCFY7lfbc38l3Ye7IPooXcpo5i9zACgmj37 QthA+VvQOHgeSKgkqm530+k= =m61U -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-We/bITLkFRm0xgU/rk3X-- From alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk Sun Jun 4 12:16:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C50043B01B6 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 12:16:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28610-07 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 12:16:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (unknown [81.2.110.250]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4DAD3B009F for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 12:16:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k54GVY3s024738; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:31:35 +0100 Received: (from alan@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k54GVYRS024737; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:31:34 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: alan set sender to alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk using -f From: Alan Cox To: Dominic Lachowicz In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606011450m58601cadq2f8694e2968d753c@mail.gmail.com> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606011450m58601cadq2f8694e2968d753c@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 17:31:33 +0100 Message-Id: <1149438693.23209.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 (2.6.1-1.fc5.2) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.386 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.201, BAYES_40=-0.185] X-Spam-Score: -1.386 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 16:16:27 -0000 Ar Iau, 2006-06-01 am 17:50 -0400, ysgrifennodd Dominic Lachowicz: > This rubs me the wrong way. It's not like we're actively working to > exclude women, Asians, or Martians from GNOME. Nor are we actively > trying to make GNOME a boys-only club. Simply put, there's no > conscious, malicious intent behind the disproportionate male/female > ratio, or "Western"/Asian ratio. And I think that this matters... It shouldn't IMHO be taken that way. Most discrimination of all kinds is utterly unintentional, and that kind of discrimination is harder to tackle because there is no evil intent and no-one to directly blame. It still needs tackling, and that is in part about making people understand when their actions put off or exclude others. Alan From danilo@gnome.org Sun Jun 4 18:36:42 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED3AB3B0080 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 18:36:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15344-09 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 18:36:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from avet.kvota.net (unknown [147.91.15.33]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4238D3B0008 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2006 18:36:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by avet.kvota.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1A75A7D1A0; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 00:41:17 +0200 (CEST) To: Alan Cox References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <36826.194.138.18.131.1149165209.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <1149170254.12932.27.camel@localhost> <1149181064.5943.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149193316.6894.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606011450m58601cadq2f8694e2968d753c@mail.gmail.com> <1149438693.23209.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> From: danilo@gnome.org (=?utf-8?q?Danilo_=C5=A0egan?=) Mail-Followup-To: Alan Cox , Dominic Lachowicz , foundation-list@gnome.org Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 00:41:16 +0200 In-Reply-To: <1149438693.23209.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> (Alan Cox's message of "Sun, 04 Jun 2006 17:31:33 +0100") Message-ID: <87k67w8rxv.fsf@avet.kvota.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/21.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.489 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.110, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.489 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 22:36:42 -0000 Hi Alan, Dominic, Yesterday at 18:31, Alan Cox wrote: > It shouldn't IMHO be taken that way. Most discrimination of all kinds is > utterly unintentional, and that kind of discrimination is harder to > tackle because there is no evil intent and no-one to directly blame. It > still needs tackling, and that is in part about making people understand > when their actions put off or exclude others. Any actions whatsoever put off or exclude others. Eg. even insisting on freedom (in practice) excludes those who insist that they need no freedom in software (even if we're not intentionally excluding them: if they need no freedom, it doesn't mean that it will harm them, so why wouldn't they join and help us?). And as already indicated on this list, there are several people here who are afraid that establishing Code of Conduct would "put off or exclude others" as well (i.e. be "discriminative"). And not because they would not abide by the rules, but because they wouldn't want to be told what to, and what not to do. Shall we stop promoting freedom because of this "discrimination"? Or "being nice"? (this is exactly the reason I am in favour of CoC: just like we should promote freedom even if it puts off someone, we should promote politeness even if it excludes someone) I'd rather say that we're getting increasingly and needlessly touchy here. Lets just get on with the Code of Conduct (or whatever the name is now), and hope that it will resolve issues we as a community might have, yet are unable to acknowledge or recognise. Cheers, Danilo From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Mon Jun 5 03:15:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66D613B0560 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 03:15:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10156-09 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 03:14:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C3F413B070E for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 03:14:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 32058 invoked by uid 0); 5 Jun 2006 07:14:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.34]) (83.55.175.229) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 07:14:53 +0000 From: Quim Gil To: Shaun McCance In-Reply-To: <1149177077.31607.13.camel@shaunmlx> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440605300709u669c5da2sa352f1f5fedf2b06@mail.gmail.com> <14439.194.138.18.131.1149000460.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060530151633.GB28961@bridgewayconsulting.com.au> <447C6567.2040000@free.fr> <1149177077.31607.13.camel@shaunmlx> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-CbFrQf4qX9tQSp9+ED3+" Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 09:14:51 +0200 Message-Id: <1149491692.5124.54.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.281 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=1.318, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -1.281 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 07:15:03 -0000 --=-CbFrQf4qX9tQSp9+ED3+ Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El dj 01 de 06 del 2006 a les 10:51 -0500, en/na Shaun McCance va escriure: > there tends to > be a reasonably high percentage of women in technical jobs > that aren't necessarily programming (though they may involve > some programming), such as project management, tech writing, > graphic design, and quality assurance. >=20 > All of these positions tend to be under-represented in the > free software world, at least among volunteer efforts. Good point.=20 We can try to find and convince the very few geek women out there for free software hardcore programming. But if we miss people in all the non-programming tasks, wouldn't be easier to find new types of contributors through these gateways? Documentation, marketing, web publishing, graphic design, journalism, project coordination, community management... are tasks that involve both women and men in the professional world. We have difficulties recruiting volunteers, any kind of volunteers, in these tasks and I think the reason is not some kind of gender or minority discrimination but, put simply, the predominant geek culture (which I bet some sociologist has already found out to be based mainly on male and western paradigms). It is probably good to promote geek-ism in those aspects of free software related to programming but... is it useful to promote it in the rest of tasks? I don't think so, unless we want to develop a desktop and a bunch applications successful between geeks only. I bet this geek culture is stopping many women from being interested in the free software phenomena (in fact I asked several computer-friendly women and this is the answer I got). Being myself not a programmer, it stopped me from finding a place to contribute until I learned to be geek-friendly. And this culture is still stopping many of my non-geek colleagues (both women and men) to come and give a hand. Ask your friends. =20 It is clear that women in general are happy investing their personal time in social activities without a monetary or even a clear benefit. Women have been key in any process of social change (even if their names don't appear in the history books). Have a look on social, non-commercial activities around the world and you will find women everywhere, many times challenging the gender percentages or simply having a clear superiority over men.=20 If we fail involving women (and other "majority" groups in other social, non-commercial organizations and activities) it's because something else, an the geek culture is in the top of the suspicious list. We can work making the geek paradigms more feminine or less gender-determined but changing a paradigm takes time and there is no manual for it. Working on less geek-ish gateways and environments for the non-programming tasks seems to be a more tangible challenge that can make a change in the short term. --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-CbFrQf4qX9tQSp9+ED3+ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEg9nqBEzHYk6x634RAqlJAJ4zANfndROsAmG+04Ii2MTuE6ocXACgvF4R FcFX4ebWv4xv6VK+G+wa1OI= =/nJ+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-CbFrQf4qX9tQSp9+ED3+-- From anne@oestergaard.nu Mon Jun 5 09:40:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 214FC3B08AB for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:40:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02988-06 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:40:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46C153B0874 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:40:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA90A245038 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:40:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id DC24D75034D for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:40:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 23250 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 13:40:22 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 13:40:22 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: foundation-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 15:40:21 +0200 Message-Id: <1149514822.4447.55.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.285 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.177, BAYES_40=-0.185, TW_PL=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -1.285 X-Spam-Level: Subject: The 3rd International GPLv3 Conference: Takes place in CCCB, Barcelona, Spain, June 22nd & 23rd X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:40:40 -0000 The 3rd International GPLv3 Conference: Takes place in CCCB, Barcelona, Spain, June 22nd & 23rd! The venue has now been confirmed as Aula 1, Centre de Cultura Contemporanea (CCCB).www.cccb.org/ Important information especially to those of you who are going to this years GUADEC and have not yet brought your traveling ticket and to all of you living near by. Just before GUADEC starts there is this very important conference taking place in Barcelona: The 3rd International GPLv3 Conference: CCCB, Barcelona, Spain, June 22nd & 23rd http://fsfeurope.org/projects/gplv3/europe-gplv3-conference It is very important to all GNOME and other developers of Free- and Open Source Software to follow closely and participate in the discussions on how we would like the final version of GPLv3 to be. This is not a matter for lawyers only but a vital question for everyone who has an interest in software freedom and how you make it possible to share and build upon the ideas of each other in order to get a more free, fair, ethic, and democratic international society. It is also vital for creating the best possible legal as well as technical environment and conditions for future innovation. Best regards Anne From anne@oestergaard.nu Mon Jun 5 09:42:10 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5315D3B08BA for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:42:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02993-10 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:42:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 549A53B086F for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:42:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user5.cybercity.dk (user5.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.51]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BB1724518C for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:42:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user5.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 341613A2411 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:42:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 23285 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 13:42:05 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 13:42:05 -0000 Dato: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 18:11:26 +0200 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: foundation-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 15:42:04 +0200 Message-Id: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.785 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.675, BAYES_05=-1.11] X-Spam-Score: -1.785 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:42:10 -0000 Hello all GNOME Foundation Members, About the size of the present board. The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño. Background: Not so long ago we had a Reducing Board Size Referendum "Should the board size be reduced from its current 11 directors to 7 directors?" The Referendum Results: 188 members voted for this referendum. The repartition of the votes is: yes (117 votes) no (70 votes) blank votes: 1 The board is at the moment of the opinion that a GNOME Board of 7 persons should normally work and be enough, provided that we have a staff person who can take part of the work load. Also at present a couple of the 7 board members have been given additional responsibilities at their ordinary work places and/or enlarged their family so they are pressed for time for "heavy" board work. Since the board has not yet hired anybody (we are in the process of doing so), the board would suggest to you that for the remaining of this year, we ask Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño to join the board. They are both happy and willing to join the board, but under the condition that there is not severe objections from the GNOME Foundation Members. I think that I need not tell you, that the two candidates in question are highly respected for their long time great contributions to the GNOME project and the GNOME community spirit. Being responsible for having proposed this temporary compromise solution, I naturally hope for your blessings. Please react within 10 days if you have problems with enlarging the board by inviting Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño to join the GNOME Board of Directors for the rest of 2006. Best wishes Anne From horkana@maths.tcd.ie Mon Jun 5 12:52:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C85B63B03D4 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 12:52:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15369-05 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 12:52:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 54F843B059A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 12:52:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.11] helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 5 Jun 2006 17:52:10 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 17:52:09 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Horkan To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 16:52:14 -0000 On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Anne [ISO-8859-1] =D8stergaard wrote: > Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 15:42:04 +0200 > From: "Anne [ISO-8859-1] =D8stergaard" > To: foundation-list@gnome.org > Subject: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons > > Hello all GNOME Foundation Members, > > About the size of the present board. > > The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the > board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germ=C3=A1n Po=C3=B3-Caama=C3= =B1o. > > Background: > Not so long ago we had a Reducing Board Size Referendum > > "Should the board size be reduced from its current 11 directors to 7 > directors?" The way I always thought of the purpose of the referendum was that it should be possible - in fact it is a necessity - that others beyond the official board be involved in organising. The number of people on the board seems to be a symptom of the fact that it is difficult to get people involved and helping out with the foundation any other way. > The board is at the moment of the opinion that a GNOME Board of 7 > persons should normally work and be enough, provided that we have a > staff person who can take part of the work load. Being officially on the Gnome Foundation board is a nice way to provide more recognition for the people who work on behalf of Gnome but is it really necessary to give official titles to get people to help out in this way? (Perhaps it is, I'm assuming nothing at this point and I certainly dont want to discourage those who work to help keep the Gnome Foudnatoin organised.) Would a board of 15 people get huge amounts of work done, or would it hamper decision making? Could there be some kind of a secondary board, or council or committee or whatever you want to call it with a more fluid membership formed from those actively helping at any given time, requiring only a nomination from the board? That might give the flexibility required and provide another way to recognise all the work being done on our behalf. > They are both happy and willing to join the board, but under the > condition that there is not severe objections from the GNOME Foundation > Members. The way the referendum was written it did leave it open for the board to reexpand later at their own discretion. If you are really convinced it will help I wont make an issue of it but there might be a better way and you could take successful referendum as encouragement to think about it a little further if this is the best way to organise the board in the long run. --=20 Alan From baris@teamforce.name.tr Mon Jun 5 13:07:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 383823B0007 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:07:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16437-06 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:07:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nerd.com.tr (nerd.com.tr [69.60.117.115]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 473403B038A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:07:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nerd.com.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D19D784E6A; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:10:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nerd.com.tr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (nerd.com.tr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00433-08; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:10:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (unknown [81.213.157.51]) by nerd.com.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id F10EC784E68; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:10:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Baris Cicek To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-FNyi3F0n+O+x6eo3x6Zz" Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:07:03 +0300 Message-Id: <1149527224.2470.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 (2.6.1-1.fc5.2) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at nerd.com.tr X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.239 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.360, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.239 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 17:07:18 -0000 --=-FNyi3F0n+O+x6eo3x6Zz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anne you better also send this mail to foundation-announce because every foundation member might not be subscribed here, but they do to foundation-announce. Also I wonder why Board need to enlarge its size, but instead asking for help outside the board. Like delegating some work to groups and just stay as a decision maker? As a side note, as far as I remember the biggest argument for reducing board size is because it was harder to decide with too much noise in board, which made being in decision maker position harder. Isn't it better to get over this problem first, which next year's or later year's boards would suffer again, instead of temporary solutions On Mon, 2006-06-05 at 15:42 +0200, Anne =C3=98stergaard wrote: > Hello all GNOME Foundation Members, >=20 > About the size of the present board. >=20 > The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the > board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germ=C3=A1n Po=C3=B3-Caama=C3= =B1o.=20 >=20 > Background: > Not so long ago we had a Reducing Board Size Referendum >=20 > "Should the board size be reduced from its current 11 directors to 7 > directors?" =20 >=20 > The Referendum Results: >=20 > 188 members voted for this referendum. The repartition of the votes is:=20 >=20 > yes (117 votes) > no (70 votes) > blank votes: 1 >=20 >=20 > The board is at the moment of the opinion that a GNOME Board of 7 > persons should normally work and be enough, provided that we have a > staff person who can take part of the work load. >=20 > Also at present a couple of the 7 board members have been given > additional responsibilities at their ordinary work places and/or > enlarged their family so they are pressed for time for "heavy" board > work. >=20 > Since the board has not yet hired anybody (we are in the process of > doing so), the board would suggest to you that for the remaining of this > year, we ask Behdad Esfahbod and Germ=C3=A1n Po=C3=B3-Caama=C3=B1o to joi= n the board. >=20 > They are both happy and willing to join the board, but under the > condition that there is not severe objections from the GNOME Foundation > Members. >=20 > I think that I need not tell you, that the two candidates in question > are highly respected for their long time great contributions to the > GNOME project and the GNOME community spirit. >=20 > Being responsible for having proposed this temporary compromise > solution, I naturally hope for your blessings. >=20 > Please react within 10 days if you have problems with enlarging the > board by inviting Behdad Esfahbod and Germ=C3=A1n Po=C3=B3-Caama=C3=B1o t= o join the > GNOME Board of Directors for the rest of 2006. >=20 >=20 > Best wishes >=20 > Anne >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > foundation-list mailing list > foundation-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list --=-FNyi3F0n+O+x6eo3x6Zz Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEhGS362fLHU++kcURAuOQAKDH1XkUp5jJbQgoPaZQ7rYkLmIb8QCgy4nV 2JPZyV+MSHCcejDwfcLG4Ao= =B3LD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-FNyi3F0n+O+x6eo3x6Zz-- From ted@leary.csoft.net Mon Jun 5 13:09:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0E4F3B050E for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:09:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16633-04 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:08:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail63.csoft.net (mail63.csoft.net [205.205.214.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A7A9B3B01A1 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:08:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 21562 invoked by uid 1373); 5 Jun 2006 17:08:55 -0000 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 12:08:55 -0500 (EST) From: ted@gould.cx X-X-Sender: ted@leary2.csoft.net To: Alan Horkan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.638 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_REAL_NAME=0.961] X-Spam-Score: -1.638 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 17:09:00 -0000 Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Alan Horkan wrote: > The way I always thought of the purpose of the referendum was that it > should be possible - in fact it is a necessity - that others beyond the > official board be involved in organising. The number of people on the > board seems to be a symptom of the fact that it is difficult to get people > involved and helping out with the foundation any other way. I agree with Alan on this (and if you read the Inkscape list, you know that Alan and I don't agree that much :) If these people want to help out, and there are tasks that the board wishes to assign to them, that'd be great. And, I would consider "did X for the board" a great plus on any candidacy statement for the next election. But, they can't be members of the board without an election. --Ted From domlachowicz@gmail.com Mon Jun 5 13:21:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D69E23B08A1 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:21:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17259-02 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:21:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.197]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 413FF3B006C for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:21:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so1207436wxd for ; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:21:23 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=QDbgo9tjZO3vERpfPc6acQItV9f5RiD/en/qTooxz0+9N7z/Wh3n9xA7QUGtyedsQWgL8ZsAdGcAjmkWhWahcnp9Q/bEnckByLEaDsr9CzOSRAUwv6913Dsiu0tpMcnIlF9SduUdcophPsryyANBrCdSJUPAo5jt0+Cb0JFYTNQ= Received: by 10.70.27.12 with SMTP id a12mr6287613wxa; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:21:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.116.12 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 10:21:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:21:23 -0400 From: "Dominic Lachowicz" To: "ted@gould.cx" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.717 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.606, BAYES_05=-1.11, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -1.717 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 17:21:28 -0000 > Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > > Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. It doesn't seem to be entirely arbitrary. The 3 "appointees" were the next 3 highest vote-getters in the 2005 elections. http://foundation.gnome.org/vote/results.php?election_id=2 > candidacy statement for the next election. But, they can't be members of > the board without an election. The Foundation's charter apparently says (in at least two places) that they can appoint members without an election: http://foundation.gnome.org/about/charter/ "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows, subject to approval by the board or referendum of the membership." "Between elections, board vacancies or new board slots shall be filled by appointment by the board of directors." The charter is, of course, amendable via referendum. I like all of the people appointed and appreciate that they were all the next highest vote-getters in the 2005 election. They'd do a great job on the board. But I must admit, it feels a little strange that a third of the foundation's board would be appointed if this were to pass. Would it be preferable if instead some of the work were farmed out to willing volunteers, rather than expanding the board's size? Why should we prefer the board's size to grow rather than taking this proposed alternative? Best, Dom -- Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums. From newren@gmail.com Mon Jun 5 13:22:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB4663B0921 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:22:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17203-06 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:22:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.199]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 376D33B026A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:22:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so1207646wxd for ; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:22:30 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=OsYHaW/07fQqwe80q4hzPlzWBWo0iKC1ms5AzFCgOL01x90L/CgrtB8FAvc/B7jdgfR4E5+bwA16yZhyEdTV7ZJZMtPxfOiTfS7edcdCBqilBZ76ZpgPPXn6BHsl5GCmsCEr8VTwpyKYXgP2m1GRgJqWswUUblAS0gYfATQBWww= Received: by 10.70.71.12 with SMTP id t12mr6302640wxa; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.7 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 10:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51419b2c0606051022u66212d1at72d1a175728953b8@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 11:22:29 -0600 From: "Elijah Newren" To: "ted@gould.cx" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.567 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.033, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.567 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 17:22:34 -0000 On 6/5/06, ted@gould.cx wrote: > > Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > > Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. It doesn't look at all arbitrary to me. Behdad and German ran for the board last year and are the highest two vote receivers who aren't on the board. > > On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Alan Horkan wrote: > > The way I always thought of the purpose of the referendum was that it > > should be possible - in fact it is a necessity - that others beyond the > > official board be involved in organising. The number of people on the > > board seems to be a symptom of the fact that it is difficult to get people > > involved and helping out with the foundation any other way. > > I agree with Alan on this (and if you read the Inkscape list, you know > that Alan and I don't agree that much :) If these people want to help > out, and there are tasks that the board wishes to assign to them, that'd > be great. And, I would consider "did X for the board" a great plus on any > candidacy statement for the next election. But, they can't be members of > the board without an election. There may be reasons to object to this, but I disagree with this reasoning. There was an election. Besides -- what about the case where Luis resigned just recently? Your reasoning would say that he can't be replaced. Is that really what you're suggesting? From vuntz@gnome.org Mon Jun 5 14:45:25 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B49783B0A30 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:45:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22597-04 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:45:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fennas.vuntz.net (fennas.vuntz.net [82.228.182.88]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BB153B097F for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:45:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from latronche.vuntz.net (latronche.vuntz.net [10.0.0.7]) by fennas.vuntz.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4233811267D for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 20:45:23 +0200 (CEST) From: Vincent Untz To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:47:22 +0200 Message-Id: <1149533242.30799.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.56 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.039, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.56 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 18:45:25 -0000 Le lundi 05 juin 2006 à 13:21 -0400, Dominic Lachowicz a écrit : > > candidacy statement for the next election. But, they can't be members of > > the board without an election. > > The Foundation's charter apparently says (in at least two places) that > they can appoint members without an election: > > http://foundation.gnome.org/about/charter/ > > "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows, > subject to approval by the board or referendum of the membership." > > "Between elections, board vacancies or new board slots shall be filled > by appointment by the board of directors." > > The charter is, of course, amendable via referendum. Thanks Dom. I guess it's a good occasion to remind people to read the Foundation charter, especially if they are members of the Foundation :-) Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. From aguelzow@taliesin.ca Mon Jun 5 15:06:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2890B3B03AD for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:06:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23796-04 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:06:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.mail.interbaun.com (smtp01.mail.interbaun.com [199.185.130.39]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74DDC3B026A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:06:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 20591 invoked by uid 502); 5 Jun 2006 19:06:31 -0000 Received: from 226.207-229-35-0.interbaun.com (207.229.35.226) by smtp01.mail.interbaun.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 19:06:31 -0000 From: "Andreas J. Guelzow" To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Taliesin Software Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:05:38 -0600 Message-Id: <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:06:34 -0000 On Mon, 2006-05-06 at 13:21 -0400, Dominic Lachowicz wrote: > > Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > > > > Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > > everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. > > It doesn't seem to be entirely arbitrary. The 3 "appointees" were the > next 3 highest vote-getters in the 2005 elections. In other words, they lost the election. > > http://foundation.gnome.org/vote/results.php?election_id=2 > > > candidacy statement for the next election. But, they can't be members of > > the board without an election. > > The Foundation's charter apparently says (in at least two places) that > they can appoint members without an election: > > http://foundation.gnome.org/about/charter/ > > "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows, > subject to approval by the board or referendum of the membership." > > "Between elections, board vacancies or new board slots shall be filled > by appointment by the board of directors." This is different from temporarily appointing 2 additional members. Of course the board can add new seats, but they will then be permanent until (again?) removed via a referendum. Andreas -- Andreas J. Guelzow Pyrenean Shepherds From anne@oestergaard.nu Mon Jun 5 15:18:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CB5D3B07BB for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:18:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24554-02 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:18:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero1.cybercity.dk (cicero1.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92A023B077A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:18:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id D758763EE23 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:18:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 837677502C0 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:18:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 26566 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 19:18:19 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 19:18:19 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Alan Horkan In-Reply-To: References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:18:18 +0200 Message-Id: <1149535098.4447.95.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.529 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.070, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.529 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:18:36 -0000 man, 05 06 2006 kl. 17:52 +0100, skrev Alan Horkan: > On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Anne [ISO-8859-1] stergaard wrote: > > > Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 15:42:04 +0200 > > From: "Anne [ISO-8859-1] stergaard" > > To: foundation-list@gnome.org > > Subject: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons > > > > Hello all GNOME Foundation Members, > > > > About the size of the present board. > > > > The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the > > board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño. > > > > Background: > > Not so long ago we had a Reducing Board Size Referendum > > > > "Should the board size be reduced from its current 11 directors to 7 > > directors?" > > The way I always thought of the purpose of the referendum was that it > should be possible - in fact it is a necessity - that others beyond the > official board be involved in organising. The number of people on the > board seems to be a symptom of the fact that it is difficult to get people > involved and helping out with the foundation any other way. > > > The board is at the moment of the opinion that a GNOME Board of 7 > > persons should normally work and be enough, provided that we have a > > staff person who can take part of the work load. > > Being officially on the Gnome Foundation board is a nice way to provide > more recognition for the people who work on behalf of Gnome but is it > really necessary to give official titles to get people to help out in this > way? (Perhaps it is, I'm assuming nothing at this point and I certainly > dont want to discourage those who work to help keep the Gnome Foudnatoin > organised.) > > Would a board of 15 people get huge amounts of work done, or would it > hamper decision making? > > Could there be some kind of a secondary board, or council or committee or > whatever you want to call it with a more fluid membership formed from > those actively helping at any given time, requiring only a nomination from > reallythe board? That might give the flexibility required and provide another > way to recognise all the work being done on our behalf. I really think this is a good idea. We need to be better at delegating. But we get stuck when we talk about how it should be done in practice. However we have asked different members of our community for help and gotten it at several occasions, so I guess we are learning. Having a list of persons who has got time and energy to help prepare a case and make a recommendation to the board should make it so much easier for the board. I am all for that we let foundation members and even not yet foundation members sign up om a helpers Wiki page telling a little about which interests they have, how long they have been involved in the GNOME project, which kind of things they have helped out with before etc. But until we have found a proper form for how we delegate tasks I am afraid that we are short of heads and hands. Lets have an informal BoF at GUADEC on good delegation practice in GNOME. I am all for it. Anne From anne@oestergaard.nu Mon Jun 5 15:22:14 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80BEC3B038A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:22:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24742-05 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:22:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero1.cybercity.dk (cicero1.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 542403B00BE for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:22:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user3.cybercity.dk (user3.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.36]) by cicero1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36AC663E93E for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:22:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user3.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id E635293DC2 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:22:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 26602 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 19:22:10 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 19:22:10 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: ted@gould.cx In-Reply-To: References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:22:09 +0200 Message-Id: <1149535330.4447.101.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.53 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.069, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.53 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:22:14 -0000 man, 05 06 2006 kl. 12:08 -0500, skrev ted@gould.cx: > Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > > Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. OK these two persons were next on the list of persons who nearly made it to the board.(Only a few votes difference to those getting elected.) So it was not a random choice. Anne From ted@leary.csoft.net Mon Jun 5 15:35:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BF673B0947 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:35:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25691-08 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:35:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail63.csoft.net (mail63.csoft.net [205.205.214.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id ECAFE3B0668 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:35:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 4151 invoked by uid 1373); 5 Jun 2006 19:35:50 -0000 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:35:50 -0500 (EST) From: ted@gould.cx X-X-Sender: ted@leary2.csoft.net To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149535330.4447.101.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149535330.4447.101.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-2040552725-1149536150=:22433" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.638 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_REAL_NAME=0.961] X-Spam-Score: -1.638 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:35:57 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-2040552725-1149536150=:22433 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Anne =D8stergaard wrote: > man, 05 06 2006 kl. 12:08 -0500, skrev ted@gould.cx: >> Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) >> >> Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect >> everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. > > OK these two persons were next on the list of persons who nearly made it > to the board.(Only a few votes difference to those getting elected.) > > So it was not a random choice. Sorry, I didn't take the time to look at who you were suggesting. I still= =20 don't believe that the board should be adding members to itself without an= =20 election, whether they can or not. I think actions like that leave too=20 much room for cronyism in the future. As for getting people involved, perhaps posting to this list? I realize=20 it's hard to find tasks that someone might be able to pick up and do, but= =20 it is usually worthwhile in the end. Perhaps a "TODO" list on=20 live.gnome.org of things that the board is planning on doing, and will do,= =20 but if someone wants to beat them to it :) Perhaps something in the=20 meeting minutes? =09=09--Ted --0-2040552725-1149536150=:22433-- From anne@oestergaard.nu Mon Jun 5 15:40:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ADBC3B099D for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:40:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25830-05 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:40:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 986293B0947 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:40:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user4.cybercity.dk (user4.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.50]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 606272453B1 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:40:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user4.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 2483750391 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:40:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 26767 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 19:39:59 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 19:39:59 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Baris Cicek In-Reply-To: <1149527224.2470.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149527224.2470.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:39:59 +0200 Message-Id: <1149536399.4447.120.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.531 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.068, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.531 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:40:12 -0000 man, 05 06 2006 kl. 20:07 +0300, skrev Baris Cicek: > Anne you better also send this mail to foundation-announce because every > foundation member might not be subscribed here, but they do to > foundation-announce. I will do so. > Also I wonder why Board need to enlarge its size, but instead asking for > help outside the board. Like delegating some work to groups and just > stay as a decision maker? This is the way I would like to se things being delegated. I quite old and well proven way of doing it. > As a side note, as far as I remember the biggest argument for reducing > board size is because it was harder to decide with too much noise in > board, which made being in decision maker position harder. Isn't it > better to get over this problem first, which next year's or later year's > boards would suffer again, instead of temporary solutions We are in reality down to 5+ persons at times and this is not enough at the moment. We are getting the the Advisory Board more involved and the technical/or embedded devices group started so we are quite busy. If we do not get two more persons on the board, I think that we risk that the busy persons step down, and we will get the good new persons on board any way, but at the risk of loosing continuity and experience. It takes a little while before completely new board members get the feeling of how things are being done and which things must be taken care of first to get the business running. ( I am here talking of book keeping, accounting and financial insight and overview.) Anne From anne@oestergaard.nu Mon Jun 5 15:50:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 439B73B0952 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:50:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26247-10 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:50:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero1.cybercity.dk (cicero1.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.4]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63D3A3B058A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:50:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CDAC63F924 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:50:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id B2E0F750057 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:50:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 26992 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2006 19:50:38 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 19:50:38 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: ted@gould.cx In-Reply-To: References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149535330.4447.101.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:50:37 +0200 Message-Id: <1149537038.4447.131.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.531 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.068, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.531 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:50:49 -0000 man, 05 06 2006 kl. 14:35 -0500, skrev ted@gould.cx: > On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Anne stergaard wrote: > > man, 05 06 2006 kl. 12:08 -0500, skrev ted@gould.cx: > >> Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > >> > >> Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > >> everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. > > > > OK these two persons were next on the list of persons who nearly made it > > to the board.(Only a few votes difference to those getting elected.) > > > > So it was not a random choice. > > Sorry, I didn't take the time to look at who you were suggesting. I still > don't believe that the board should be adding members to itself without an > election, whether they can or not. I think actions like that leave too > much room for cronyism in the future. The problem is that it sometimes takes as long time to describe the tasks as simply doing them yourself. Also you have to check if people are doing what they said they would do and within reasonable time. You need to know people better in order to know if they just say yes and then forget all about it or they deliver if they have said they will. May be we should find a people and tasks manager. But this being said we all agree on the board that we shall delegate more and more tasks to the community because this is real important for the growth and continuity of our community. We are trying, Ted. Anne From dneary@free.fr Mon Jun 5 15:54:31 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C7B23B0011 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:54:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26894-05 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:54:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2-g19.free.fr (smtp2-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.28]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B8083B0012 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 15:54:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp2-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E624731A6; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:54:27 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:54:02 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060521) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Andreas J. Guelzow" References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> In-Reply-To: <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:54:31 -0000 Hi Andrew, Andreas J. Guelzow wrote: > On Mon, 2006-05-06 at 13:21 -0400, Dominic Lachowicz wrote: >> "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows, >> subject to approval by the board or referendum of the membership." >> >> "Between elections, board vacancies or new board slots shall be filled >> by appointment by the board of directors." > > This is different from temporarily appointing 2 additional members. Of > course the board can add new seats, but they will then be permanent > until (again?) removed via a referendum. No - the referendum last year was non-binding (as mentioned afterwards by Dom, I think). The board has the power to decide before the elections each year how many seats will be available. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From aguelzow@taliesin.ca Mon Jun 5 16:08:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DF1E3B0011 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:08:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27618-01 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:07:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp02.mail.interbaun.com (smtp02auth.mail.interbaun.com [199.185.130.52]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 19A263B0129 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:07:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 29676 invoked by uid 502); 5 Jun 2006 20:01:14 -0000 Received: from 226.207-229-35-0.interbaun.com (207.229.35.226) by smtp02.mail.interbaun.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 20:01:14 -0000 From: "Andreas J. Guelzow" To: Gnome Foundation In-Reply-To: <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Taliesin Software Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 14:00:22 -0600 Message-Id: <1149537622.6058.61.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:08:00 -0000 On Mon, 2006-05-06 at 21:54 +0200, David Neary wrote: > Hi Andrew, > > Andreas J. Guelzow wrote: > > On Mon, 2006-05-06 at 13:21 -0400, Dominic Lachowicz wrote: > >> "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows, > >> subject to approval by the board or referendum of the membership." > >> > >> "Between elections, board vacancies or new board slots shall be filled > >> by appointment by the board of directors." > > > > This is different from temporarily appointing 2 additional members. Of > > course the board can add new seats, but they will then be permanent > > until (again?) removed via a referendum. > > No - the referendum last year was non-binding (as mentioned afterwards > by Dom, I think). The board has the power to decide before the elections > each year how many seats will be available. So, the board can decide how many people it wants to have elected and then it can add an arbitrary number of additional members after the election. Why do we have elections in the first place? Of course "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows". Has trhe project really grown that significantly since the last election? Andreas From dneary@free.fr Mon Jun 5 16:09:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 971FF3B01AE for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:09:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27618-09 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:09:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp5-g19.free.fr (smtp5-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.35]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 864F73B002C for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:09:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp5-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB3212774B; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 22:09:28 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <44848F5A.3090300@free.fr> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 22:08:58 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060521) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ted@gould.cx References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149535330.4447.101.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:09:33 -0000 Hi, ted@gould.cx wrote: > As for getting people involved, perhaps posting to this list? I realize > it's hard to find tasks that someone might be able to pick up and do, > but it is usually worthwhile in the end. Perhaps a "TODO" list on > live.gnome.org of things that the board is planning on doing, and will > do, but if someone wants to beat them to it :) Perhaps something in the > meeting minutes? This point has come up a couple of times. Getting people onto the board (or at least onto board-list and on the conference calls) is useful, because a fair amount of what the board isn't doing well this year (primarily because we don't have an employee, it has to be said) is private, or requires a mandate. Things like lodging cheques or withdrawing money from the bank account, dealing with our accountant to get official forms or information on the foundation, invoicing companies for money, being aware of donations coming in and thanking donors (who potentially want to stay anonymous), things like that. There are many things that we could perhaps do more out in the open, and filtering our agendas and minutes better into public/private parts (as we started to do at the beginning of the year), posting them in a more regular and timely manner, and so on. All of those tasks take time, along with all of the other slack we've been picking up, and (as Anne pointed out) the changes in the personal and work lives of a few board members, distribution releases, births, job changes, travel with work and so on. But all the stuff that we're struggling with at the moment is kind of private stuff - which means having some kind of non-public inner circle of people - perhaps not on the board, but at least in some way engaged to respect board secrecy. Anything that we have been able to do in public (or avoid doing by delegating), we've been mostly doing. For what it's worth, I think most of our problems will go away once we have an employee, but back in October, I said that one reason why we shouldn't be afraid to reduce the number was because we would always have the possibility to increase it again if we realised we had made a mistake. I definitely thought that a few months ago, but when we had Zana as our admin, she not only caught up with the backlog, we had the impression that things were really moving forward. At the moment, we don't have 7 active, regularly answering their board mail board members. I think 6 active board members is probably enough to hold down the fort, if no important functions are missing, but we're more likely to have 6 or 7 active out of 9 than out of 7. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From dneary@free.fr Mon Jun 5 16:15:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40E3C3B002C for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:15:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28035-03 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:15:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1-g19.free.fr (smtp1-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.27]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 002103B0208 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:15:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp1-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2337A9AC97; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 22:14:59 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <448490A4.5070904@free.fr> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 22:14:28 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060521) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Andreas J. Guelzow" References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> <1149537622.6058.61.camel@localhost> In-Reply-To: <1149537622.6058.61.camel@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Gnome Foundation Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:15:03 -0000 Hi, Andreas J. Guelzow wrote: > So, the board can decide how many people it wants to have elected and > then it can add an arbitrary number of additional members after the > election. Why do we have elections in the first place? The board must have at least 7 people. Aside from that, your summary is correct. But then, we're supposed to trust our board members at election time - that's why we vote for them, isn't it? :) Seriously - the board will not abuse this, but co-opting members onto the board to handle workload is a common occurrence - as is setting up empowered sub-committees. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From newren@gmail.com Mon Jun 5 16:29:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6877C3B03EA for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:29:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29362-06 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.205]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FB293B06D7 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so1248330wxd for ; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:29:14 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=c0DI0gAqSXwHBKoFxTl2TtOdhohkR7RE11uhZPi32bUo3Db8eVQxiyFtijAYvj0mM1N8hFRyyMEejGtQxltidUZuBOYGPMXcRg7kfKRC/4YgSX/MXW3+uh+5JHFjOra8K4QYb3i+t2rdSQLUefDuiKH0Z/2TJU4kKbAWbjBlig8= Received: by 10.70.113.20 with SMTP id l20mr6543579wxc; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.112.7 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51419b2c0606051329p7c73e3a2p94a15b77e9cd5585@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:29:11 -0600 From: "Elijah Newren" To: "David Neary" In-Reply-To: <448490A4.5070904@free.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> <1149537622.6058.61.camel@localhost> <448490A4.5070904@free.fr> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.569 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.031, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.569 X-Spam-Level: Cc: "Andreas J. Guelzow" , Gnome Foundation Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:29:18 -0000 On 6/5/06, David Neary wrote: > > Hi, > > Andreas J. Guelzow wrote: > > So, the board can decide how many people it wants to have elected and > > then it can add an arbitrary number of additional members after the > > election. Why do we have elections in the first place? > > The board must have at least 7 people. Aside from that, your summary is > correct. But then, we're supposed to trust our board members at election > time - that's why we vote for them, isn't it? :) > > Seriously - the board will not abuse this, but co-opting members onto > the board to handle workload is a common occurrence - as is setting up > empowered sub-committees. Would the board lose anything by creating an empowered sub-committee here specifically consisting of Behdad and German? That would seem to quell most of the problems people have voiced against the proposal, and perhaps still allow all the same stuff to get done. I'm thinking here of the analogy to the release team -- the board formed the release-team (and still has oversight of it, if necessary), yet release-team members (assuming they are not also board members) have no board powers other than the release-team tasks they have been delegated to handle. I could be wrong, but judging from the comments so far, I believe that handles the delegation many people want to see. From Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM Mon Jun 5 18:42:02 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13AC73B03A0 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 18:42:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06160-02 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 18:42:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75B993B039F for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 18:42:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phys-gadget-1 ([129.156.85.171]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k55Mfwkk003546 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:41:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0J0E00701RZ13Q@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com> (original mail from Bill.Haneman@Sun.COM) for foundation-list@gnome.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 23:41:58 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.1.120] (vpn-129-150-116-52.UK.Sun.COM [129.150.116.52]) by gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0J0E00E5MSDY03@gadget-mail1.uk.sun.com>; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 23:41:58 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 00:08:39 +0100 From: Bill Haneman In-reply-to: <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> To: David Neary Message-id: <1149548919.12099.8.camel@linux.site> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6.338 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: Cc: "Andreas J. Guelzow" , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 22:42:02 -0000 On Mon, 2006-06-05 at 20:54, David Neary wrote: > Hi Andrew,... > No - the referendum last year was non-binding (as mentioned afterwards > by Dom, I think). The board has the power to decide before the elections > each year how many seats will be available. Having only recently had a referendum on this (or at least a closely related issue, e.g. the size of the Board), I think that if the Board wants to retain the goodwill and trust of the electorate it should abide by the referendum results. A key argument in favor of the "reduce the size of the Board" referendum was that it would be accompanied by expanded delegation and the formation of subcommittees/action groups etc. to which tasks would be delegated by the Board. Let's do it! Bill > Cheers, > Dave. > > -- > Dave Neary > bolsh@gimp.org > Lyon, France > _______________________________________________ > foundation-list mailing list > foundation-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list From Glynn.Foster@Sun.COM Mon Jun 5 23:20:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A19F3B00AE for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 23:20:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19367-02 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 23:20:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (gmpea-pix-1.sun.com [192.18.1.36]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 128553B00A2 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 23:20:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d1-emea-06.sun.com (d1-emea-06.sun.com [192.18.2.116] (may be forged)) by gmpea-pix-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id k563Jxnp029303 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:19:59 +0100 (BST) Received: from conversion-daemon.d1-emea-06.sun.com by d1-emea-06.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) id <0J0F0060154EH200@d1-emea-06.sun.com> (original mail from Glynn.Foster@Sun.COM) for foundation-list@gnome.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 04:19:59 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.18.42.16] by d1-emea-06.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0J0F004ED595ZZ20@d1-emea-06.sun.com>; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 04:19:58 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 15:23:21 +1200 From: Glynn Foster In-reply-to: <448490A4.5070904@free.fr> Sender: Glynn.Foster@Sun.COM To: David Neary Message-id: <4484F529.9010505@sun.com> Organization: Sun Microsystems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> <1149534338.6058.12.camel@localhost> <44848BDA.5020706@free.fr> <1149537622.6058.61.camel@localhost> <448490A4.5070904@free.fr> User-Agent: Mail/News 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060515) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.596 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.002, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.596 X-Spam-Level: Cc: "Andreas J. Guelzow" , Gnome Foundation Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 03:20:07 -0000 Hi, David Neary wrote: > Hi, > > Andreas J. Guelzow wrote: >> So, the board can decide how many people it wants to have elected and >> then it can add an arbitrary number of additional members after the >> election. Why do we have elections in the first place? > > The board must have at least 7 people. Aside from that, your summary is > correct. But then, we're supposed to trust our board members at election > time - that's why we vote for them, isn't it? :) > > Seriously - the board will not abuse this, but co-opting members onto > the board to handle workload is a common occurrence - as is setting up > empowered sub-committees. Will the new members have full voting rights on the board? I'm not sure I really mind either way given my previous experiences on the board, but I think we need to be careful about this since we're setting a precedent here. Glynn From james.henstridge@gmail.com Tue Jun 6 00:48:09 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 999093B007A for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 00:48:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22963-06 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 00:48:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.197]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE4EB3B0012 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 00:48:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so1343934wxd for ; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:48:07 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=s6W90tAFFMqbeF1zOA6cMOwf/4VT54VrjJ+T2QKnHBmd3wsR7fZ7AkQ83efEHduxKZMd4Wjbyv4ZlmUgVwusdTpfYGO4/1uQGQ9QGvp79F5CwIfJVkentnyjFKl4FNde0NN0q2W1cJ2Qogm71qV/5PMIAgV93neIPJUDMtvGjzc= Received: by 10.70.109.7 with SMTP id h7mr7003673wxc; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 21:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.60.15 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:48:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 12:48:06 +0800 From: "James Henstridge" Sender: james.henstridge@gmail.com To: "Dominic Lachowicz" In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 62eb23e7e8bd3462 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.582 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.582 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Alan Horkan , foundation-list@gnome.org, "ted@gould.cx" Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 04:48:09 -0000 On 06/06/06, Dominic Lachowicz wrote: > > Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > > > > Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > > everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. > > It doesn't seem to be entirely arbitrary. The 3 "appointees" were the > next 3 highest vote-getters in the 2005 elections. > > http://foundation.gnome.org/vote/results.php?election_id=2 Of course, the results of the elections may have been quite different if Luis didn't stand, and each member had two more votes to cover the additional seats. If this sort of thing is likely to happen again, it might be worth switching to a preferential voting system where we'd have all the information to see what the result would be if a candidate was removed or the number of seats increased. Dispite this, I am sure that Behdad and German would make good additions to the board. James. From jdub@waugh.id.au Tue Jun 6 01:12:02 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9CA63B0092 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:12:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24144-02 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:12:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69B643B0728 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:12:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (ppp121-112.static.internode.on.net [150.101.121.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F89C3C382 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:11:59 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 888F93F9C; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:11:54 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:11:54 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: Reply-By: Fri Jun 9 15:10:21 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 15:10:21 up 4 days, 15:02, 11 users, load average: 0.08, 0.08, 0.01 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.017, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 05:12:02 -0000 > But, they can't be members of the board without an election. Just want to point out that, yes, they can be - please read the Foundation by-laws. The board can change the size of the board at will, and nominate members at will. The referendum process was not done because it was necessary, it was done to understand the will of the membership (and delegate the decision to them). - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ "You gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, and know when to run." - Kenny Rogers, The Gambler From jdub@waugh.id.au Tue Jun 6 01:40:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8905F3B0018 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:40:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25374-02 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:40:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 428533B000D for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 01:40:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (ppp121-112.static.internode.on.net [150.101.121.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 571303C257 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:40:50 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 797943F9C; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:40:45 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:40:45 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060606054045.GM5138@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Reply-By: Fri Jun 9 15:13:53 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 15:13:53 up 4 days, 15:05, 11 users, load average: 0.09, 0.08, 0.02 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.017, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 05:40:54 -0000 > The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the > board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño. My personal opinion on this, as stated to the board: * We made our bed with the one-two-punch combination of change in board size and change in number of employees (currently zero). * Given that we delegated the decision regarding board size to the members and executed that change, it would be inappropriate only six or so months down the track to change it again. * The biggest problem right now (as I see it) is lack of board member time on the ground in Boston. We can distribute and delegate almost everything else effectively. This is impacting administration tasks and employment plans. * We are attempting to do big things without the benefit of having a face to face meeting. Every board so far has been more effective post-GUADEC, after they've had the opportunity to sit down, grind through the issues with a lot of social bandwidth and look each other up and down a bit. It really helps develop shared vision, shared values and shared trust in a way that mail, phone and IRC can't. - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ "The ability to procrastinate is what separates us from the machines." - Chris Gregory, Desktop Magazine From veillard@redhat.com Tue Jun 6 04:58:29 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E3D33B00ED for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25831-09 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [66.187.233.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D1023B00CB for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k568wKkC013649 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:20 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (devserv.devel.redhat.com [172.16.58.1]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k568wKR7017325 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:20 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k568wK9S021047 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:20 -0400 Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11/Submit) id k568wKOU021040 for foundation-list@gnome.org; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:20 -0400 Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:58:19 -0400 From: Daniel Veillard To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.367 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.003, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, TW_BX=0.077, TW_IB=0.077, TW_PM=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.367 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 08:58:29 -0000 On Tue, Jun 06, 2006 at 03:11:54PM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > > But, they can't be members of the board without an election. > > Just want to point out that, yes, they can be - please read the Foundation > by-laws. The board can change the size of the board at will, and nominate > members at will. Which is clearly a hole in the democratic process, the right thing to do would be to fix the bylaws, not jump on the loophole as a justification. > The referendum process was not done because it was necessary, it was done to > understand the will of the membership (and delegate the decision to them). And to stay in the spirit of that process you should have avoided this last step. Honnestly this look very weird from the outside, the board looks like contradicting itself on every occasion, provides no information about the day to day business (or I missed the minutes since the bunch posted for March), and the only thing which justify not working by delegation is that most of the operation need to be done in secrecy. That's honnestly not the kind of board process we expected when the bylaws were written, Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat http://redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Tue Jun 6 05:06:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46C313B09F1 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 05:06:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27265-04 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 05:06:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8E9D23B0A35 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 05:06:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 26140 invoked by uid 0); 6 Jun 2006 09:06:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.34]) (83.42.200.49) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Tue, 06 Jun 2006 09:06:03 +0000 From: Quim Gil To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-W8w3n7YDvxZf85v0s8N9" Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 11:06:02 +0200 Message-Id: <1149584763.5220.69.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.083 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.439, BAYES_00=-2.599, TW_JR=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.083 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 09:06:34 -0000 --=-W8w3n7YDvxZf85v0s8N9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El dl 05 de 06 del 2006 a les 15:42 +0200, en/na Anne =C3=98stergaard va escriure: > The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the > board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germ=C3=A1n Po=C3=B3-Caama=C3= =B1o.=20 I wasn't in the board when this issue was discussed, and as a new board board I'm unsure what should I do now if I disagree. Transparency is always a good path, I guess.=20 - Consequent with the past Increasing now the board size seems inappropriate after the referendum discussions and result and without having made an extended use of asking explicitly for help and delegating within the GNOME community. - Size is not the problem We seem to agree that the problem is not the size of the board but the current circumstances that make many board members have less time than expected. If size is not the problem, the enlargement is probably not the solution. It's like having unsatisfactory sexual live and going to the doctor to enlarge your breast or your penis. At the beginning it might look like a change and a progress, but the root of the problem is still there, and possibly larger now. - Delegating and collaborating with people out of the board There was a lot of discussion about the few time required to be a good board member, let things happen, stay out of the way... We simply need to put in practice all that. For instance, invite someone to pick the Boston Yellow Pages, make some calls and come up with 3 companies we could hire for our accountancy and representation. Delegations like this might originate some crisis situations but since we are already in a crisis situation... what can we loose? And what can we learn. Adding 2 people to the board might be methadone to keep the problem of not sharing and delegating with less pain. - Too busy to delegate and hire We know the paradox of not having time to delegate or hire, making an overwhelming situation deeper. A solution is to stop the machine consciously (many times is already stopped, unconsciously) and concentrate in delegating. An intermediate option is simply do less things or not letting new tasks start before the delegation/hiring problem is solved. We missed something because of this? Yes, but how many thing are we missing by not delegating/hiring. - The quest of finding the magic full time profile =20 No wonder we didn't find the magic profile: a yin accountant & administrator + a yang fundraiser + based in Boston + competent and available + of course familiar with free software and GNOME (discussed at http://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/2006-April/msg00023.html ). = It is probably better and easier to hire the services of a mercenary busine= ss representation based in Boston + hiring one or more part time people we = know and trust, based wherever and able to travel when it's needed.=20 - Boston (Massachusetts, USA) It is a danger to have a board elected with candidates from everywhere that needs to have at least one member in a specific city: Boston. What if jrb wasn't elected, didn't want to renew or decides to leave some day? This is per se a reason to hire the services of a company (something theoretically more stable than an individual) and visit them every three months, either picking the Boston metro or a flight.=20 - Conclusion The board is overwhelmed and needs help. The fact that the board didn't share the discussion since the earliest stage but came up with a pre-conclusion is, I think, already a symptom of how overwhelmed the board members are and how far we all still are from opening the board and start sharing and delegating with the GNOME community. Many tasks the board can't delegate easily are related to services that can be hired. Let's concentrate on that, while we review publicly the list of priorities and see who can help on what inside / outside the board. Of course nothing of this has to do with the capabilities of Behdad and Germ=C3=A1n, who could be without doubt good board members. It has not to d= o either with the fact that I joined the board as a first patch for this problem. I had these opinions months ago, when I couldn't imagine I would join the board during this year. --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-W8w3n7YDvxZf85v0s8N9 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEhUV6BEzHYk6x634RAlOGAJ468PjA5ogEPfJt4Syb7QDks2mQzACcD/Dt 7SRSwIcbyQMxQ9z9jCLmlLE= =96/Y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-W8w3n7YDvxZf85v0s8N9-- From dneary@free.fr Tue Jun 6 06:16:02 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACD933B0A9E for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 06:16:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06395-09 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 06:16:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp6.wanadoo.fr (smtp6.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.25]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5360F3B0ACF for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 06:15:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf0606.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 398661C00282; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 12:15:12 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060606101512236.398661C00282@mwinf0606.orange.fr Message-ID: <448555B5.5030106@free.fr> Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:15:17 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Quim Gil References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149584763.5220.69.camel@localhost> In-Reply-To: <1149584763.5220.69.camel@localhost> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.54 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, TW_JR=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.54 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 10:16:03 -0000 Hi, Quim Gil wrote: > El dl 05 de 06 del 2006 a les 15:42 +0200, en/na Anne Østergaard va > escriure: > >> The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the >> board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño. > > I wasn't in the board when this issue was discussed, and as a new board > board I'm unsure what should I do now if I disagree. Transparency is > always a good path, I guess. Yes - just disagree. There is/was not unanimity on this point. As Jeff's said, he's against changing. Luis was also. I was the first one to propose increasing the board size in February when we were having trouble coping, but am now unsure, and was absent from the board meeting where it was discussed. > - Boston (Massachusetts, USA) > > It is a danger to have a board elected with candidates from everywhere > that needs to have at least one member in a specific city: Boston. What > if jrb wasn't elected, didn't want to renew or decides to leave some > day? This is per se a reason to hire the services of a company > (something theoretically more stable than an individual) and visit them > every three months, either picking the Boston metro or a flight. I'm unsure what the consequences would be for the foundation if none of the board was in or from the US. I'm not sure there would be any. The insistence on a Boston rep is more convenience than necessity - everyone knows how much more quickly things can go when you need something off someone, and you drop by to meet them face to face. Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From jdub@waugh.id.au Tue Jun 6 06:33:53 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE7743B00CF for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 06:33:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09584-02 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 06:33:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE51F3B0084 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 06:33:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (ppp121-112.static.internode.on.net [150.101.121.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9F223D876 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 20:33:50 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0FA6D3F9C; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 20:33:45 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 20:33:45 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> Reply-By: Fri Jun 9 20:19:56 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 20:19:57 up 4 days, 20:11, 10 users, load average: 0.04, 0.10, 0.03 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.447 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.017, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.447 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 10:33:53 -0000 > > Just want to point out that, yes, they can be - please read the > > Foundation by-laws. The board can change the size of the board at will, > > and nominate members at will. > > Which is clearly a hole in the democratic process, the right thing to do > would be to fix the bylaws, not jump on the loophole as a justification. Daniel, you misunderstand - I'm not here to justify the loophole, as I do not agree with the proposal in the first place! :-) There are a bunch of things I think we could fix in the bylaws (but I may feel that way simply because they are substantially different from the law and practices that I am used to in Australia). I do think the ability for the board to redefine its size at will is not appropriate. That said, the previous decision to reduce the board to seven members was discussed on the list and delegated to the membership - fully transparent. The board *absolutely* needs the ability to nominate members when a position is vacant. It should not require an election process to execute that - if the (elected) board is not trusted to fill vacant positions, then we have much bigger problems. Considering the current state of affairs, I think it's wholly appropriate that the board is nominating Quim Gil (next in line from previous election results) to fill the position left vacant by Luis' resignation, but I don't believe it's appropriate or necessary for the board to increase the number of directors (with or without referendum, but to answer your charges, mostly without) at this stage. > and the only thing which justify not working by delegation is that most of > the operation need to be done in secrecy. I don't believe anyone has cited 'secrecy', though the word 'private' has come up. Ultimately the workings and decision of the board is not secret at all, but there are activities that require a certain amount of privacy or sensitivity. The process of dealing with employees, and the handling of the accounts (handling, not reporting) are good examples. I don't think this is even remotely controversial - anyone who has participated in the running of a non-profit organisation (including you, Daniel) would be well aware of this kind of balancing. If the board is not appropriately reporting its activities, then any member should feel absolutely comfortable to ask questions and make demands. But I would ask that those questions and demands be specific and reasonable. :-) - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ "It's never been, 'We're doing this for the good of society.' It's always been us taking an intellectual pride in putting out a good product - and making money. If putting a computer on every desktop and in every home didn't make money, we wouldn't do it." - Microserfs From veillard@redhat.com Tue Jun 6 07:33:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 352943B00E0 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16106-09 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [66.187.233.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA3A63B00B4 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k56BXoEq003691 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:50 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (devserv.devel.redhat.com [172.16.58.1]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k56BXonQ013466 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:50 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k56BXo7G005351 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:50 -0400 Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11/Submit) id k56BXnfY005349 for foundation-list@gnome.org; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:49 -0400 Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 07:33:49 -0400 From: Daniel Veillard To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060606113349.GW16734@redhat.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.367 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.003, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, TW_BX=0.077, TW_IB=0.077, TW_PM=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.367 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 11:33:52 -0000 On Tue, Jun 06, 2006 at 08:33:45PM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > Considering the current state of affairs, I think it's wholly appropriate > that the board is nominating Quim Gil (next in line from previous election > results) to fill the position left vacant by Luis' resignation, but I don't yes, agreed, it's defining a new practice, but this sounds sane as long as that person is still okay with this. > believe it's appropriate or necessary for the board to increase the number > of directors (with or without referendum, but to answer your charges, mostly > without) at this stage. I can't juge on the 'necessary', but I think it's inappropriate too. > > and the only thing which justify not working by delegation is that most of > > the operation need to be done in secrecy. > > I don't believe anyone has cited 'secrecy', though the word 'private' has > come up. Ultimately the workings and decision of the board is not secret at > all, but there are activities that require a certain amount of privacy or > sensitivity. The process of dealing with employees, and the handling of the > accounts (handling, not reporting) are good examples. I don't think this is > even remotely controversial - anyone who has participated in the running of > a non-profit organisation (including you, Daniel) would be well aware of > this kind of balancing. To have balance one need one opposite side, a perceived one. Sure some details can't be shared, as you know I'm well aware of that, BUT I also always promoted being as public as possible with issues. Currently the board work is opaque, which would be fine if the few signals emitted were good, but 'we are overhelmed we need to reverse to some extend a voted decision' is not a good signal. > If the board is not appropriately reporting its activities, then any member The board is not reporting its activities in a timely fashion. > should feel absolutely comfortable to ask questions and make demands. But I > would ask that those questions and demands be specific and reasonable. :-) Okay, what happen at the board meetings since March, time of last published minutes I could find. I assume it's reasonable request to at least know if you are meeting, and what are the problems/questions you are facing with the details you can share. It then helps getting a sense of how much work need to be done you can't cope with and hence how necessary increasing the board size again really is. I hope my reaction can be understood, and my request not unreasonnable, but really that request should not need to be done, this should be normal process, Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat http://redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From dneary@free.fr Tue Jun 6 08:04:29 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5E283B0141 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:04:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19256-08 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:04:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp9.wanadoo.fr (smtp9.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D9443B008B for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:04:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf0904.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 495E2240019C; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:04:26 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060606120426300.495E2240019C@mwinf0904.orange.fr Message-ID: <44856F50.4000402@free.fr> Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 14:04:32 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: veillard@redhat.com References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606113349.GW16734@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: <20060606113349.GW16734@redhat.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Board meetings since March (was: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:04:30 -0000 Hi, Daniel Veillard wrote: > Okay, what happen at the board meetings since March, time of last published > minutes I could find. I assume it's reasonable request to at least know if > you are meeting, and what are the problems/questions you are facing with > the details you can share. It then helps getting a sense of how much work > need to be done you can't cope with and hence how necessary increasing the > board size again really is. We met on the following dates since the beginning of March: March 1st (minutes sent to foundation-list) March 15th (minutes sent to foundation-list) March 22nd (minutes sent to foundation-list) April 5th April 26th May 17th We also had 2 advisory board meetings (but minutes from those have typically not gone to foundation-list): April 12th May 31st There was a scheduled meeting on the 10th of May which was canceled because of technical problems. The next board meeting is scheduled for tomorrow, June 7th. The minutes for the April 5th and May 17th meetings need to be sanitised for board private issues and sent to the list. We didn't have any phone call for the April 26th meeting, and so the only minutes we have are an IRC log, which again needs to be summarised and sanitised for board privacy issues. The agendas for all meetings should also be reviewed for privacy and confidentiality issues, and sent to the list. I've been sending the agendas to board-list 48 hours before the meeting for comments, and preparing a private/public agenda in the wiki and for the mailing list has proved more effort than I have available for that, and I must admit that it hasn't been a high priority. As an ex board member, you have read-only access to the board wiki pages - would you like to take on this task and help me out? Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From murrayc@murrayc.com Tue Jun 6 08:23:16 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 061193B0186 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:23:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20602-02 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:23:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail3.sd.dreamhost.com (webmail3.sd.dreamhost.com [64.111.100.15]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BC2E3B00B4 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:23:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.murrayc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by webmail3.sd.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E13A714179; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 05:23:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 194.138.18.132 (proxying for unknown) (SquirrelMail authenticated user murrayc@murrayc.com) by webmail.murrayc.com with HTTP; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:23:12 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <60481.194.138.18.132.1149596592.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> In-Reply-To: <44856F50.4000402@free.fr> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606113349.GW16734@redhat.com> <44856F50.4000402@free.fr> Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:23:12 +0200 (CEST) From: "Murray Cumming" To: "Dave Neary" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.548 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.051, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.548 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, veillard@redhat.com Subject: Re: Board meetings since March (was: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:23:16 -0000 > > Hi, > > Daniel Veillard wrote: >> Okay, what happen at the board meetings since March, time of last >> published >> minutes I could find. I assume it's reasonable request to at least know >> if >> you are meeting, and what are the problems/questions you are facing with >> the details you can share. It then helps getting a sense of how much >> work >> need to be done you can't cope with and hence how necessary increasing >> the >> board size again really is. > > We met on the following dates since the beginning of March: > > March 1st (minutes sent to foundation-list) > March 15th (minutes sent to foundation-list) > March 22nd (minutes sent to foundation-list) > April 5th > April 26th > May 17th It really makes life easier if these are added to the list here: http://live.gnome.org/FoundationBoardPublic#head-6903d3d78a8eb091678548773e79000fb5c10292 (Although it doesn't need to be a board member that does that. I blame me.) > We also had 2 advisory board meetings (but minutes from those have > typically not gone to foundation-list): > April 12th > May 31st > > There was a scheduled meeting on the 10th of May which was canceled > because of technical problems. The next board meeting is scheduled for > tomorrow, June 7th. > > The minutes for the April 5th and May 17th meetings need to be sanitised > for board private issues and sent to the list. We didn't have any phone > call for the April 26th meeting, and so the only minutes we have are an > IRC log, which again needs to be summarised and sanitised for board > privacy issues. The agendas for all meetings should also be reviewed for > privacy and confidentiality issues, and sent to the list. > > I've been sending the agendas to board-list 48 hours before the meeting > for comments, and preparing a private/public agenda in the wiki and for > the mailing list has proved more effort than I have available for that, > and I must admit that it hasn't been a high priority. > > As an ex board member, you have read-only access to the board wiki pages > - would you like to take on this task and help me out? I believe everyone has write access to the public pages. Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From veillard@redhat.com Tue Jun 6 08:59:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EE633B00CF for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22495-08 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [66.187.233.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50D123B00B9 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k56Cxdju004443; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:39 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (devserv.devel.redhat.com [172.16.58.1]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k56CxdoC031823; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:39 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k56Cxdrh011349; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:39 -0400 Received: (from veillard@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11/Submit) id k56Cxdaq011347; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:39 -0400 Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:59:39 -0400 From: Daniel Veillard To: Dave Neary Message-ID: <20060606125938.GX16734@redhat.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606113349.GW16734@redhat.com> <44856F50.4000402@free.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <44856F50.4000402@free.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.367 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.003, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, TW_BX=0.077, TW_IB=0.077, TW_PM=0.077] X-Spam-Score: -2.367 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Board meetings since March (was: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: veillard@redhat.com List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:59:45 -0000 On Tue, Jun 06, 2006 at 02:04:32PM +0200, Dave Neary wrote: > The minutes for the April 5th and May 17th meetings need to be sanitised > for board private issues and sent to the list. We didn't have any phone It takes 2 months ? News from 2 months ago are usually not that useful. > call for the April 26th meeting, and so the only minutes we have are an > IRC log, which again needs to be summarised and sanitised for board > privacy issues. The agendas for all meetings should also be reviewed for > privacy and confidentiality issues, and sent to the list. You don't need the agenda to be sent, if you send the minutes in a timely fashion, then people can react if you forgot something. > I've been sending the agendas to board-list 48 hours before the meeting That's nice, but board only, not public awareness, that should make writing minutes even easier. > for comments, and preparing a private/public agenda in the wiki and for > the mailing list has proved more effort than I have available for that, > and I must admit that it hasn't been a high priority. Stuff in the wiki has no persistance, contrary to mail archive, requires web access, and polling or page subscription to monitor state changes. > As an ex board member, you have read-only access to the board wiki pages > - would you like to take on this task and help me out? I don't have much time either, and I disagree with using the Wiki as the way to reach out the community. I think you're not in a very good position to state there isn't enough cycles to run those kind of task, I argued that going from 11 to 7 would be a serious problem, and it's not a matter of having a paid person to do them, the board ought to have the cycles to push the minutes from meeting in a timely fashion delegating this can just lead to more delays and less accuracy. It takes 20, 30mn at worse to edit and post minutes, every 2 weeks. If people on the board don't have that kind of time to offer, then it's a real problem, the only other option would be if current board people didn't think board minutes are important, but in that case they should be frank about this and state it I would not expect or request them. Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat http://redhat.com/ veillard@redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From dneary@free.fr Tue Jun 6 09:43:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DE4A3B012C for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 09:43:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25372-04 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 09:43:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 642B23B00AB for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 09:43:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf1101.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 3E3B11C0004D; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:43:03 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060606134303255.3E3B11C0004D@mwinf1101.orange.fr Message-ID: <4485866C.5080903@free.fr> Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 15:43:08 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: veillard@redhat.com References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606051154.GL5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606085819.GT16734@redhat.com> <20060606103345.GY5138@waugh.id.au> <20060606113349.GW16734@redhat.com> <44856F50.4000402@free.fr> <20060606125938.GX16734@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: <20060606125938.GX16734@redhat.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Board meetings since March X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 13:43:07 -0000 Hi, Daniel Veillard wrote: > On Tue, Jun 06, 2006 at 02:04:32PM +0200, Dave Neary wrote: >> As an ex board member, you have read-only access to the board wiki pages >> - would you like to take on this task and help me out? > > I don't have much time either, and I disagree with using the Wiki as the > way to reach out the community. The private board pages are as good a way as any to prepare an agenda and allow people to edit it easily. Taking that information and splitting it into public/private parts and sending it onto a mailing list is the task I was thinking of. > I think you're not in a very good position to state there isn't enough cycles > to run those kind of task, I argued that going from 11 to 7 would be a serious > problem, and it's not a matter of having a paid person to do them, the board > ought to have the cycles to push the minutes from meeting in a timely fashion > delegating this can just lead to more delays and less accuracy. It takes 20, > 30mn at worse to edit and post minutes, every 2 weeks. If people on the > board don't have that kind of time to offer, then it's a real problem, the > only other option would be if current board people didn't think board minutes > are important, but in that case they should be frank about this and state it > I would not expect or request them. Of course this task is important, and of course one person can take care of it in under an hour after each meeting (half an hour to tidy up notes, and half an hour to take into consideration comments and mail to the list a couple of days later). As I said, the breakage is happening between the preparation of the minutes (which are happening in a timely manner, usually straight after the meeting) and the sending of public minutes to foundation-list a couple of days later. You always did a great job sending out the public minutes. This year, we have not done as good a job. But there is no way I'm saying that increasing the size of the board will help us do a better job - sending minutes out is, and has always been, the job of the secretary - it's not really something that can be shared unless he/she asks someone else to take care of it, or is absent from a meeting. Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From murrayc@murrayc.com Tue Jun 6 16:17:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD4943B0236 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 16:17:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19265-05 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 16:17:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swarthymail-a4.dreamhost.com (mailbigip.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.5]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0753D3B0B04 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 16:17:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from noname (p5497CD77.dip.t-dialin.net [84.151.205.119]) by swarthymail-a4.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92901129A8C; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 13:17:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Murray Cumming To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 22:17:51 +0200 Message-Id: <1149625071.6086.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.06 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.341, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_NJABL_PROXY=0.721, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SOCKS=2.159] X-Spam-Score: -1.06 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 20:17:57 -0000 Here's a positive reply, just so you don't think it's all negative. I'll never figure out how to request a representative sample of replies while also avoiding too many replies. I trust the board to do this and to know if they need to do it, and I have confidence in the proposed new members. I'd prefer delegation, but even the act of delegation requires suitable chunks of time that they might not have right now. If they can't do that quickly then they need to get on and do this now. I supported the reduced-size referendum because I think the board needs to make faster decisions instead of pondering every possibility until the chances have gone by. So well done. If I could set a condition for my Yes, it would be that the new board members would obsessively care for the Foundation's public wiki pages and keep people informed of possible meetings agendas and minutes of completed meetings. You do quite a lot and people should know about it. You might even start referring to not-public-yet agenda items by codenames if necessary, just so we have an idea of how much you are working on. -- Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From murrayc@murrayc.com Wed Jun 7 15:43:39 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBDAC3B01E8 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 15:43:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09531-04 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 15:43:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swarthymail-a1.dreamhost.com (mailbigip.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.5]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AD613B01BA for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 15:43:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from noname (p5497CB1E.dip.t-dialin.net [84.151.203.30]) by swarthymail-a1.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C133D8FE77; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 12:43:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Murray Cumming To: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= In-Reply-To: <1149170374.6894.73.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4205.194.138.18.131.1148987083.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <20060531090536.GZ5201@waugh.id.au> <1149069306.5127.160.camel@localhost> <31858.194.138.18.131.1149070868.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <447DACE5.7010009@novell.com> <1149094443.5720.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <447DDF82.5060104@gnome.org> <1149104280.7081.29.camel@linux.site> <1149161034.6894.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <28355.194.138.18.131.1149162961.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> <2cb10c440606010513m25560ddcle9846f4eb03577c2@mail.gmail.com> <1149170374.6894.73.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 21:43:33 +0200 Message-Id: <1149709413.5916.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.98 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-1.395, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.558, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.456] X-Spam-Score: -0.98 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct) X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 19:43:40 -0000 On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 15:59 +0200, Anne Østergaard wrote: > > > Realistically, this plans needs to be written by you. Others will > help you > > > with it, but you need to create it and drive it. [snip] > I will work with the whole of the women in FLOSS community as well as > with the persons who wrote the FLOSSPOLS reports and others who have > written scientific reports and with those of you who are interested. Thanks, Anne. I look forward to reading your suggestions. -- Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From dneary@free.fr Thu Jun 8 17:35:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E6BD3B05F8 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 17:35:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07181-03 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 17:35:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp3-g19.free.fr (smtp3-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.29]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A4A23B000E for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 17:35:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp3-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D47949075; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 23:35:36 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <44889604.7000405@free.fr> Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:26:28 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060521) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alan Cox References: <1147629160.44676e6870cb6@imp1-g19.free.fr> <1147699940.26686.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1147699539.4468815380ca5@imp1-g19.free.fr> <1147702053.26686.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <1147702053.26686.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------040605040600010104040604" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Boilerplate trademark agreement for commercial exploitation X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 21:35:40 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040605040600010104040604 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I was under the impression that I had sent this to the list a long time ago, but I can't find it in the archives, so here, for archival purposes, is the merchandising trademark agreement in .odt - all comments, as usual, are welcome. I'll take the opportunity to thank Dom Lachowitz, who has agreed to take over maintaining the document - I bow to his superior knowledge, and thank him very much for reminding us last week that we should be delegating more ;-) Cheers, Dave. Alan Cox wrote: > On Llu, 2006-05-15 at 15:25 +0200, Dave Neary wrote: >> I can certainly post a copy in ODT later in the week which gets converted into >> .doc every time we need to go to the lawyers... I won't always have the time to >> do it promptly, though. >> >> I will note that there are several high-quality free software programmes that >> can read and write the bits of the .doc format which are important for lawyers. > > > - There are open standards, and GNOME is an open standards based body > - A ".doc" file may render in many different ways, especialy if it > contains macros. Which is definitive, the contract as rendered by MS > Word or by Abiword or by OpenOffice ? > > Alan > > > -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France --------------040605040600010104040604 Content-Type: application/vnd.oasis.opendocument.text; name="GNOME merchandising contract.odt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="GNOME merchandising contract.odt" UEsDBBQAAAAAAMCpyDRexjIMJwAAACcAAAAIAAAAbWltZXR5cGVhcHBsaWNhdGlvbi92bmQu b2FzaXMub3BlbmRvY3VtZW50LnRleHRQSwMEFAAAAAAAwKnINAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABoAAABD b25maWd1cmF0aW9uczIvc3RhdHVzYmFyL1BLAwQUAAgACADAqcg0AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAJwAA AENvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb25zMi9hY2NlbGVyYXRvci9jdXJyZW50LnhtbAMAUEsHCAAAAAACAAAA AAAAAFBLAwQUAAAAAADAqcg0AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGAAAAENvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb25zMi9mbG9h dGVyL1BLAwQUAAAAAADAqcg0AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGgAAAENvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb25zMi9wb3B1 cG1lbnUvUEsDBBQAAAAAAMCpyDQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAcAAAAQ29uZmlndXJhdGlvbnMyL3By b2dyZXNzYmFyL1BLAwQUAAAAAADAqcg0AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGAAAAENvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb25z 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[127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD6B93B031B for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 18:56:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10924-10 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 18:56:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 297323B0450 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 18:56:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 18926 invoked from network); 8 Jun 2006 22:56:39 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?164.99.120.169?) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 8 Jun 2006 22:56:39 -0000 From: Federico Mena Quintero To: foundation-list@gnome.org, GNOME Foundation Board Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 17:52:27 -0500 Message-Id: <1149807147.30645.105.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.645 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.905, BAYES_20=-0.74] X-Spam-Score: -1.645 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Required: Administrator for the Foundation X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 22:56:44 -0000 Hi, The GNOME Foundation is in need of a part-time administrator based in the USA. Our administrator will: 1. Collect, sort and summarise mail for the Board. 2. Handle bills in a timely manner. 3. Prepare checks for the Board to sign. 4. Track donations and fees. 5. Maintain a list of Board contacts. 6. Send out Friends of GNOME gifts to donors. 7. Keep the boards files in order, and sending expenses (when appropriate) to the accountant. 8. Handle the purchase and preparation of materials for tradeshows. 9. Attend board meetings bi-weekly as appropriate, and prepare status updates. 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. 11. There is no number 11. Proximity to Boston, MA is very desirable, though not mandatory. Please send your CV/resume in plain text to board-list@gnome.org. Federico From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Thu Jun 8 19:27:43 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E05373B019F for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 19:27:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12544-06 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 19:27:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7D04E3B03EC for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 19:27:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 11101 invoked by uid 0); 8 Jun 2006 23:27:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.34]) (83.55.174.28) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:27:37 +0000 From: Quim Gil To: Federico Mena Quintero In-Reply-To: <1149807147.30645.105.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> References: <1149807147.30645.105.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-g90YM+JWhOUtDEnlibmx" Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 01:27:36 +0200 Message-Id: <1149809257.5200.57.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=1.200, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:27:43 -0000 --=-g90YM+JWhOUtDEnlibmx Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Help the board (and the whole GNOME Foundation) spreading this profile or this link: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/2006-June/msg00077.html It is crystal clear that the board members will be much alleviated the day we have an efficient administrator in control of all the numbers and legal stuff.=20 El dj 08 de 06 del 2006 a les 17:52 -0500, en/na Federico Mena Quintero va escriure: > Hi, >=20 > The GNOME Foundation is in need of a part-time administrator based in > the USA. Our administrator will: >=20 > 1. Collect, sort and summarise mail for the Board. > 2. Handle bills in a timely manner. > 3. Prepare checks for the Board to sign. > 4. Track donations and fees. > 5. Maintain a list of Board contacts. > 6. Send out Friends of GNOME gifts to donors. > 7. Keep the boards files in order, and sending expenses (when=20 > appropriate) to the accountant. > 8. Handle the purchase and preparation of materials for tradeshows. > 9. Attend board meetings bi-weekly as appropriate, and prepare=20 > status updates. > 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. > 11. There is no number 11. >=20 > Proximity to Boston, MA is very desirable, though not mandatory. >=20 > Please send your CV/resume in plain text to board-list@gnome.org. >=20 > Federico >=20 > _______________________________________________ > foundation-list mailing list > foundation-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list >=20 --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-g90YM+JWhOUtDEnlibmx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEiLJoBEzHYk6x634RArJ6AJsGvNjgobbIa1GuEtIGYilkVS3pngCgrcR4 DwICtONuTn7adRgOQx5v+mo= =dz/Q -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-g90YM+JWhOUtDEnlibmx-- From anne@oestergaard.nu Fri Jun 9 06:20:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC9133B0099 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 06:20:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14331-03 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 06:20:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero0.cybercity.dk (cicero0.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.52]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22ECE3B0093 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 06:20:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user1.cybercity.dk (user1.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.34]) by cicero0.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC255678493 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 12:20:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user1.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 6AA8774F9A5 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 12:20:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 24532 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 10:20:46 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 10:20:46 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: Federico Mena Quintero In-Reply-To: <1149807147.30645.105.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> References: <1149807147.30645.105.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 12:20:45 +0200 Message-Id: <1149848445.4453.36.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.538 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.061, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.538 X-Spam-Level: Cc: GNOME Foundation Board , foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 10:20:54 -0000 tor, 08 06 2006 kl. 17:52 -0500, skrev Federico Mena Quintero: > Hi, > > The GNOME Foundation is in need of a part-time administrator based in > the USA. Our administrator will: > > 1. Collect, sort and summarise mail for the Board. > 2. Handle bills in a timely manner. > 3. Prepare checks for the Board to sign. > 4. Track donations and fees. > 5. Maintain a list of Board contacts. > 6. Send out Friends of GNOME gifts to donors. > 7. Keep the boards files in order, and sending expenses (when > appropriate) to the accountant. > 8. Handle the purchase and preparation of materials for tradeshows. > 9. Attend board meetings bi-weekly as appropriate, and prepare > status updates. > 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. > 11. There is no number 11. > > Proximity to Boston, MA is very desirable, though not mandatory. > > Please send your CV/resume in plain text to board-list@gnome.org. Don't forget to send a coverletter that explains why you qualify for this position. Anne From anne@oestergaard.nu Fri Jun 9 09:33:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70A3E3B029F for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 09:33:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27640-06 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 09:33:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F2963B0003 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 09:33:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user3.cybercity.dk (user3.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.36]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id F411F245C35 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 15:33:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user3.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id CAC1C93E3E for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 15:33:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 26273 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 13:33:41 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 13:33:41 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 15:33:39 +0200 Message-Id: <1149860019.4453.144.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.539 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.060, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.539 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 13:33:45 -0000 man, 05 06 2006 kl. 15:42 +0200, skrev Anne Østergaard: > Hello all GNOME Foundation Members, > > About the size of the present board. > > The Board would like to propose to you a temporary enlargement of the > board with two persons: Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño. > > Background: > Not so long ago we had a Reducing Board Size Referendum > > "Should the board size be reduced from its current 11 directors to 7 > directors?" > > The Referendum Results: > > 188 members voted for this referendum. The repartition of the votes is: > > yes (117 votes) > no (70 votes) > blank votes: 1 > > > The board is at the moment of the opinion that a GNOME Board of 7 > persons should normally work and be enough, provided that we have a > staff person who can take part of the work load. > > Also at present a couple of the 7 board members have been given > additional responsibilities at their ordinary work places and/or > enlarged their family so they are pressed for time for "heavy" board > work. > > Since the board has not yet hired anybody (we are in the process of > doing so), the board would suggest to you that for the remaining of this > year, we ask Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño to join the board. > > They are both happy and willing to join the board, but under the > condition that there is not severe objections from the GNOME Foundation > Members. > > I think that I need not tell you, that the two candidates in question > are highly respected for their long time great contributions to the > GNOME project and the GNOME community spirit. > > Being responsible for having proposed this temporary compromise > solution, I naturally hope for your blessings. > > Please react within 10 days if you have problems with enlarging the > board by inviting Behdad Esfahbod and Germán Poó-Caamaño to join the > GNOME Board of Directors for the rest of 2006. > I think I made a mistake by only asking those having a problem with a temporary enlargement of the board till the end of the year. As we have not heard from the members would think this was quite acceptable, the result of the consultation would tend to be negative. This is logic. Should the board conclude that the community is against- or do we have lots of members who says yes or stay neutral? Please let's have your reaction before June 11th. Best wishes Anne PS The board is putting great efforts into delegating tasks as we know that there are many members eager to give a hand. In fact we almost always get a yes when we ask. From federico@ximian.com Fri Jun 9 10:42:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3F2C3B10A5 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 10:42:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31714-09 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 10:42:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E2953B0290 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 10:42:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 19596 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 14:42:29 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO 164-99-120-73.boston.ximian.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 14:42:29 -0000 From: Federico Mena Quintero To: foundation-list@gnome.org, foundation-announce@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 09:38:17 -0500 Message-Id: <1149863897.3733.5.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Questions for deployments of GNOME X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 14:42:33 -0000 Are you a deployment of GNOME? Are you like the City of Largo, Florida, or like the districts of Extremadura and Andalucía in Spain, who have big installations of machines running GNOME? At the GNOME Foundation we are conducting a little, informal study of how we can make your lives easier. If you are in charge of the technical part of a GNOME deployment, we would greatly appreciate it if you could answer the questions here: http://primates.ximian.com/~federico/news-2006-06.html#questions-for-deployments Please mail your replies to federico@gnu.org. A summary of the replies will be published during GUADEC this year. Thank you! Federico From domlachowicz@gmail.com Fri Jun 9 11:31:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BFA23B0222 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:31:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02652-02 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:31:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wx-out-0102.google.com (wx-out-0102.google.com [66.249.82.207]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 965CA3B0290 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:31:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wx-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id i30so654060wxd for ; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 08:31:53 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ZlrLXpqL60K1jk8gw3EPmgUEmZUs7iRuScIMEJ15le+bAITYJXZ6VK5qOBdKr99XGsf9iHLtP1cLzAAAAcHKc0zZ+AP0nnOQt8DqXZ/7MjFh/QeEqr33wBOS/t9ZUxPURaKYN9lUQHsv4APUxHzLnEa0GI+xJCtCeppE+Dy7OUg= Received: by 10.70.73.15 with SMTP id v15mr3606926wxa; Fri, 09 Jun 2006 08:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.116.12 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 08:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2672cf4d0606090831h34982de3u16db61e5308242ec@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:31:53 -0400 From: "Dominic Lachowicz" To: "=?UTF-8?Q?Anne_=C3=98stergaard?=" In-Reply-To: <1149860019.4453.144.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149860019.4453.144.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.351 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_BASE64_NO_NAME=0.224, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.351 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 15:31:56 -0000 SGkgQW5uZSwKCj4gPiBJIHRoaW5rIHRoYXQgSSBuZWVkIG5vdCB0ZWxsIHlvdSwgdGhhdCB0aGUg dHdvIGNhbmRpZGF0ZXMgaW4gcXVlc3Rpb24KPiA+IGFyZSBoaWdobHkgcmVzcGVjdGVkIGZvciB0 aGVpciBsb25nIHRpbWUgZ3JlYXQgY29udHJpYnV0aW9ucyB0byB0aGUKPiA+IEdOT01FIHByb2pl Y3QgYW5kIHRoZSBHTk9NRSBjb21tdW5pdHkgc3Bpcml0Lgo+ID4KPiA+IEJlaW5nIHJlc3BvbnNp YmxlIGZvciBoYXZpbmcgcHJvcG9zZWQgdGhpcyB0ZW1wb3JhcnkgY29tcHJvbWlzZQo+ID4gc29s dXRpb24sIEkgbmF0dXJhbGx5IGhvcGUgZm9yIHlvdXIgYmxlc3NpbmdzLgo+ID4KPiA+IFBsZWFz ZSByZWFjdCB3aXRoaW4gMTAgZGF5cyBpZiB5b3UgaGF2ZSBwcm9ibGVtcyB3aXRoIGVubGFyZ2lu ZyB0aGUKPiA+IGJvYXJkIGJ5IGludml0aW5nIEJlaGRhZCBFc2ZhaGJvZCBhbmQgR2VybcOhbiBQ b8OzLUNhYW1hw7FvIHRvIGpvaW4gdGhlCj4gPiBHTk9NRSBCb2FyZCBvZiBEaXJlY3RvcnMgZm9y IHRoZSByZXN0IG9mIDIwMDYuCgpbc25pcF0KCj4gUFMgVGhlIGJvYXJkIGlzIHB1dHRpbmcgZ3Jl YXQgZWZmb3J0cyBpbnRvIGRlbGVnYXRpbmcgdGFza3MgYXMgd2Uga25vdwo+IHRoYXQgdGhlcmUg YXJlIG1hbnkgbWVtYmVycyBlYWdlciB0byBnaXZlIGEgaGFuZC4gSW4gZmFjdCB3ZSBhbG1vc3QK PiBhbHdheXMgZ2V0IGEgeWVzIHdoZW4gd2UgYXNrLgoKSSBhcHByZWNpYXRlIHRoZSBib2FyZCdz IGVmZm9ydHMsIGhhcmQgd29yaywgYW5kIGRlZGljYXRpb24uIEkgYXBwbGF1ZAp0aGUgYm9hcmQn cyByZWNlbnQgcmVzb2x2ZSB0byBkZWxlZ2F0ZSBtb3JlIHRoaW5ncywgaW5jbHVkaW5nCmRlbGVn YXRpbmcgdGhlIFRNIGRvY3VtZW50IHRvIG1lLiBJIGhvcGUgbm90IHRvIGRpc2FwcG9pbnQgeW91 LgoKSG93ZXZlciwgSSBzdGlsbCBoYXZlbid0IGhlYXJkIGEgZ29vZCBleHBsYW5hdGlvbiBhcyB0 byAqd2h5KiB0aGUKYm9hcmQgbmVlZHMgbW9yZSBtZW1iZXJzIHRvIGZ1bGZpbGwgaXRzIGR1dGll cy4gT3Igd2h5IDIgaXMgdGhlIG1hZ2ljCm51bWJlci4gT3Igd2h5IHRoZSBuZXcgcG9zaXRpb25z IHdvdWxkIG9ubHkgYmUgdGVtcG9yYXJ5LiBXaGF0CnByb2JsZW1zIGlzIHRoZSBib2FyZCBmYWNp bmcgdGhhdCBjYW5ub3QgYmUgaGFuZGxlZCBieSB0aGUgY3VycmVudAptZW1iZXJzIHBsdXMgZGVs ZWdhdGlvbiBhcyBhcHByb3ByaWF0ZT8gT3IgaWYgY2VydGFpbiBtZW1iZXJzIGNhbid0Cm1lZXQg dGhlaXIgb2JsaWdhdGlvbnMgZHVlIHRvIG91dHNpZGUgb3IgZnV0dXJlIGNvbW1pdHRtZW50cyAo YXMgd2FzCkx1aXMnIGNhc2UgcmVjZW50bHkpIC0gb3Zlci1xdWFsaWZpZWQgYW5kIHBhc3Npb25h dGUgYXMgdGhleSBhcmUgLSAgaXMKdGhlIGNvcnJlY3Qgc29sdXRpb24gdG8gcmVzaWduIGFuZCBs ZXQgb3RoZXIgcGVvcGxlIHJlcGxhY2UgdGhlbT8KCkluIG15IG9waW5pb24sIHlvdSd2ZSBhc2tl ZCB1cyB0byB2b2ljZSBhbiBvcGluaW9uIHdpdGhvdXQgcHJlc2VudGluZwppbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBu ZWNlc3NhcnkgdG8gZm9ybWluZyBhIHF1YWxpZmllZCBvcGluaW9uLiBUaGlzIGlzIG1hZGUKZXZl biBtb3JlIGRpZmZpY3VsdCAoSU1PLCBvZiBjb3Vyc2UpIHNpbmNlIG5vIGJvYXJkIG1lZXRpbmcg bWludXRlcwpoYXZlIGJlZW4gcmVsZWFzZWQgc2luY2UgTWFyY2ggMjIsIHdoaWNoIGlzIGZhc3Qg YXBwcm9hY2hpbmcgMyBtb250aHMKYWdvLgoKSSBkb24ndCBrbm93IGFsbCBvZiB0aGUgcHJvYmxl bXMgZmFjaW5nIHRoZSBib2FyZC4gSSdtIG5vdCBzdXJlIHRoYXQKSSdtIGVudGl0bGVkIHRvIGtu b3cgdGhlbS4gQnV0IGZyb20gd2hhdCBsaXR0bGUgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24gSSBoYXZlLCBJCmNhbid0 IGhlbHAgYnV0IGZlZWwgdGhhdCB0aGUgYm9hcmQgaGFzIGdvdHRlbiBtb3JlIG9wYXF1ZSBhbmQK b3ZlcndvcmtlZCBzaW5jZSBpdHMgcmVjZW50IHJlZHVjdGlvbiB0byA3IG1lbWJlcnMuIChGb3Ig dGhlIHJlY29yZCwgSQpzdGlsbCBkaXNsaWtlIHRoYXQgbm8gZ29vZCBhcmd1bWVudCB3YXMgbWFk ZSB0aGVuIGFzIHRvIHdoYXQgcHJvYmxlbXMKdGhlIHByZXZpb3VzIGJvYXJkIHdhcyBmYWNpbmcs IGFuZCB3aHkgZ2V0dGluZyByaWQgb2YgNCBwZW9wbGUgd291bGQKaGF2ZSBzb2x2ZWQgdGhvc2Ug cHJvYmxlbXMuIElNSE8sIGhpc3Rvcnkgbm93IHJlcGVhdHMgaXRzZWxmLikKCklmIGFkZGluZyAy IG1vcmUgbWVtYmVycyB3aWxsIGhlbHAgc29sdmUgdGhlIGJvYXJkJ3MgcHJvYmxlbXMgaW4gd2F5 cwp0aGF0IGRlbGVnYXRpb24gb3IgYXR0cml0aW9uIGFsb25lIGNhbid0LCB0aGVuIGdyZWF0LiBM ZXQncyBkbyBpdC4gQnV0CnBsZWFzZSwgbWFrZSBhbiBhcmd1bWVudCBpbiB0aGUgbmV4dCAzIGRh eXMgYXMgdG8gd2h5IGFkZGluZyB0aGVzZQpwZW9wbGUgd2lsbCBoZWxwIHNvbHZlIHRoZSBwcm9i bGVtLgoKQmVzdCwKRG9tCi0tIApDb3VudGluZyBib2RpZXMgbGlrZSBzaGVlcCB0byB0aGUgcmh5 dGhtIG9mIHRoZSB3YXIgZHJ1bXMuCg== From dneary@free.fr Fri Jun 9 16:48:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29F733B01F6 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:48:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19379-08 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:48:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1-g19.free.fr (smtp1-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.27]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 128893B11A4 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:48:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp1-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BCEA9ABB8 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 22:48:13 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4489DB7A.6090102@free.fr> Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 22:35:06 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060521) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Foundation-List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Draft agenda for foundation AGM during GUADEC X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 20:48:45 -0000 Hi, We will be holding a GNOME Foundation general meeting during GUADEC on Tuesday June 27th, at 14h. The agenda will be pretty basic - we will present what the board has been working on and will work on for the rest of the year, get a report on our finances from the treasurer, and have a Q&A session for the rest of the time available. The meeting is for foundation members - so please, if there are things you feel we should concentrate on, reply here with suggestions for additions, or for subjects which you consider important. The AGM is our way to communicate directly to the membership what everyone's been doing for the foundation and for the community. We won't be limiting ourselves to board activities - sinceone of the core tasks of the board is to be aware of what's going on around the foundation, and co-ordinate people when there is common interest. Cheers, Dave. Agenda ====== 1. Chairman's report Presentation of the board, and overview of the foundation's activities since last GUADEC. I will be handing off the conch to other board members for particular topics. 2. Treasurer's report The state of the finances - how much money we have, what we've spent money on, and what we plan to do with the rest. 3. Ongoing projects and their status 4. Questions & Answers -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From danw@novell.com Fri Jun 9 17:04:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 132FA3B01AB for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:04:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20767-04 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:04:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B2E43B00FE for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:04:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 20109 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 21:04:39 -0000 Received: from outbound.ximian.com (HELO ?164.99.121.40?) (danw@130.57.170.250) by peabody.ximian.com with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 21:04:39 -0000 Message-ID: <4489E254.1070900@novell.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 17:04:20 -0400 From: Dan Winship User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20060317) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606054045.GM5138@waugh.id.au> In-Reply-To: <20060606054045.GM5138@waugh.id.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.734 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.824, BAYES_05=-1.11, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2] X-Spam-Score: -1.734 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 21:04:45 -0000 Jeff Waugh wrote: > * We are attempting to do big things without the benefit of having a face > to face meeting. Every board so far has been more effective post-GUADEC, > after they've had the opportunity to sit down, grind through the issues > with a lot of social bandwidth and look each other up and down a bit. It > really helps develop shared vision, shared values and shared trust in a > way that mail, phone and IRC can't. Should we shift the election cycle by a few months then, so that GUADEC falls near the start of the new board's term, rather than halfway through? -- Dan From rml@novell.com Fri Jun 9 17:23:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7FCA3B02C9 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:23:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21648-01 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:23:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 900583B0256 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:23:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 20159 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 21:23:16 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO betsy.boston.ximian.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 21:23:16 -0000 From: Robert Love To: Dan Winship In-Reply-To: <4489E254.1070900@novell.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606054045.GM5138@waugh.id.au> <4489E254.1070900@novell.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 17:23:32 -0400 Message-Id: <1149888212.31757.191.camel@betsy.boston.ximian.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.482 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.083, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2] X-Spam-Score: -2.482 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 21:23:18 -0000 On Fri, 2006-06-09 at 17:04 -0400, Dan Winship wrote: > Should we shift the election cycle by a few months then, so that GUADEC > falls near the start of the new board's term, rather than halfway through? I am pretty sure that cheetah's don't have teeth, but I could be way off on that one. Robert Love From rml@novell.com Fri Jun 9 17:26:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9FF33B02D1 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:26:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21629-06 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:26:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C92C23B02C9 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:26:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 20164 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 21:26:14 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO betsy.boston.ximian.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 21:26:14 -0000 From: Robert Love To: Dan Winship In-Reply-To: <1149888212.31757.191.camel@betsy.boston.ximian.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606054045.GM5138@waugh.id.au> <4489E254.1070900@novell.com> <1149888212.31757.191.camel@betsy.boston.ximian.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 17:26:29 -0400 Message-Id: <1149888389.31757.193.camel@betsy.boston.ximian.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.482 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.083, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE=0.2] X-Spam-Score: -2.482 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 21:26:19 -0000 On Fri, 2006-06-09 at 17:23 -0400, Robert Love wrote: > On Fri, 2006-06-09 at 17:04 -0400, Dan Winship wrote: > > > Should we shift the election cycle by a few months then, so that GUADEC > > falls near the start of the new board's term, rather than halfway through? > > I am pretty sure that cheetah's don't have teeth, but I could be way off > on that one. There is a definite bug in Evolution. Robert Love From anne@oestergaard.nu Fri Jun 9 18:41:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3E513B0353 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 18:41:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25560-09 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 18:41:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cicero2.cybercity.dk (cicero2.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.53]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 379E33B0101 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2006 18:41:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user4.cybercity.dk (user4.cybercity.dk [212.242.41.50]) by cicero2.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2FD2245263 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 00:41:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk (port287.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.116.232]) by user4.cybercity.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 464415045D for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 00:41:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 1264 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2006 22:41:17 -0000 Received: from star.firstimpact.lan (192.168.1.7) by goofy.firstimpact.lan with SMTP; 9 Jun 2006 22:41:17 -0000 From: Anne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8stergaard?= To: David Neary In-Reply-To: <4489DB7A.6090102@free.fr> References: <4489DB7A.6090102@free.fr> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 00:41:16 +0200 Message-Id: <1149892876.4453.220.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.539 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.060, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.539 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Foundation-List Subject: Re: Draft agenda for foundation AGM during GUADEC X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 22:41:33 -0000 fre, 09 06 2006 kl. 22:35 +0200, skrev David Neary: > Hi, > > We will be holding a GNOME Foundation general meeting during GUADEC on > Tuesday June 27th, at 14h. > > The agenda will be pretty basic - we will present what the board has > been working on and will work on for the rest of the year, get a report > on our finances from the treasurer, and have a Q&A session for the rest > of the time available. > > The meeting is for foundation members - so please, if there are things > you feel we should concentrate on, reply here with suggestions for > additions, or for subjects which you consider important. > > The AGM is our way to communicate directly to the membership what > everyone's been doing for the foundation and for the community. We won't > be limiting ourselves to board activities - sinceone of the core tasks since one > of the board is to be aware of what's going on around the foundation, > and co-ordinate people when there is common interest. > > Cheers, > Dave. > > Agenda > ====== > > 1. Chairman's report > > Presentation of the board, and overview of the foundation's activities > since last GUADEC. I will be handing off the conch to other board > members for particular topics. > > 2. Treasurer's report > > The state of the finances - how much money we have, what we've spent > money on, and what we plan to do with the rest. > > 3. Ongoing projects and their status > > 4. Questions & Answers Looks fine to me. Thanks Dave. Anne From jdub@waugh.id.au Sat Jun 10 03:27:16 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D9D63B021F for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 03:27:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15839-04 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 03:27:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A4FE3B01B7 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 03:27:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (ppp121-112.static.internode.on.net [150.101.121.112]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27C473C362 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:27:12 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6E7653F55; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:27:03 +1000 (EST) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:27:03 +1000 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <20060610072703.GG5138@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060606054045.GM5138@waugh.id.au> <4489E254.1070900@novell.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <4489E254.1070900@novell.com> Reply-By: Tue Jun 13 16:55:45 EST 2006 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-23-686 i686 X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Uptime: 16:55:45 up 8 days, 16:47, 10 users, load average: 0.06, 0.09, 0.03 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.448 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.448 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Re: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 07:27:16 -0000 > Jeff Waugh wrote: > > * We are attempting to do big things without the benefit of having a > > face to face meeting. Every board so far has been more effective > > post-GUADEC, after they've had the opportunity to sit down, grind > > through the issues with a lot of social bandwidth and look each other > > up and down a bit. It really helps develop shared vision, shared values > > and shared trust in a way that mail, phone and IRC can't. > > Should we shift the election cycle by a few months then, so that GUADEC > falls near the start of the new board's term, rather than halfway through? I'd like to, and proposed it during my previous term, but it wasn't pursued (probably a combination of my year off, other important structural changes going on, and indecision about how to kick it off - delay the elections by five months or shift them ahead by four?). Aiming for elections in May would probably be best - I'll add this to the board agenda, thanks! - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ "Trying to get a PC to analyse one of the most abstract forms of language - the poem - is like trying to drill for oil with a banana." - The Register From aguelzow@pyrshep.ca Mon Jun 5 14:59:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EAD83B0A25 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:59:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23291-09 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:59:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.mail.interbaun.com (smtp01.mail.interbaun.com [199.185.130.39]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEF373B09D1 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:59:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 14439 invoked by uid 502); 5 Jun 2006 18:59:31 -0000 Received: from 226.207-229-35-0.interbaun.com (207.229.35.226) by smtp01.mail.interbaun.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 2006 18:59:31 -0000 From: "Andreas J. Guelzow" To: foundation-list@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606051021s482a51bs6f28d7281dfd926@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 12:58:39 -0600 Message-Id: <1149533919.6058.5.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 16:16:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 3 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 18:59:45 -0000 On Mon, 2006-05-06 at 13:21 -0400, Dominic Lachowicz wrote: > > Well, I think it should be three people. Those two guys, and me :) > > > > Seriously though, you can't arbitrarilly pick two people and not expect > > everyone else to be arbitrarilly picked. > > It doesn't seem to be entirely arbitrary. The 3 "appointees" were the > next 3 highest vote-getters in the 2005 elections. In other words, they lost the election. > > http://foundation.gnome.org/vote/results.php?election_id=2 > > > candidacy statement for the next election. But, they can't be members of > > the board without an election. > > The Foundation's charter apparently says (in at least two places) that > they can appoint members without an election: > > http://foundation.gnome.org/about/charter/ > > "New seats on the board may be made available as the project grows, > subject to approval by the board or referendum of the membership." > > "Between elections, board vacancies or new board slots shall be filled > by appointment by the board of directors." This is different from temporarily appointing 2 additional members. Of course the board can add new seats, but they will then be permanent until (again?) removed via a referendum. Andreas From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Sat Jun 10 19:23:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F2583B0250 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:23:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31888-05 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:23:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5649B3B00BE for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:23:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 25487 invoked by uid 0); 10 Jun 2006 23:03:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.33]) (83.55.171.219) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:03:01 +0000 From: Quim Gil To: Dominic Lachowicz In-Reply-To: <2672cf4d0606090831h34982de3u16db61e5308242ec@mail.gmail.com> References: <1149514924.4447.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1149860019.4453.144.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2672cf4d0606090831h34982de3u16db61e5308242ec@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-KTaz04E3pQ5RiXxb3JWq" Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 01:03:01 +0200 Message-Id: <1149980581.5208.64.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.421 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=1.178, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -1.421 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Temporaray enlargement of the GNOME Board with 2 persons X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:23:34 -0000 --=-KTaz04E3pQ5RiXxb3JWq Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Dom, El dv 09 de 06 del 2006 a les 11:31 -0400, en/na Dominic Lachowicz va escriure: > What > problems is the board facing that cannot be handled by the current > members plus delegation as appropriate? This is a good question (the other ones as well, but at least I can say something about this one). In the board meeting of last Wednesday we discussed possible and easy to implement ways to improve the communication and collaboration between the board and people willing to have a higher implication and participation in foundation/board tasks.=20 Good communication eases collaboration, and good collaboration eases trust. Trust is the root of many problems of delegation: sharing or delegating a private task to someone you trust and collaborate takes 5 minutes (ok, maybe more). The same action without regular communication-collaboration-trust takes more time, and risk. Jeff is preparing a proposal. I just wanted to provide some informal and personal feedback so you don't think that the board is keeping the temporary enlargement as the only or primary option to consider. > IMHO, history now repeats itself.) Another interesting point, that brings an issue... In our current setting it is very unlikely that the current board is going to criticize openly something specific about the last board. I believe the way the board is mounted and unmounted every year makes difficult to make (self)criticism openly. It's not like one party losing an election and a new party coming in (system that has its defects but at least assures criticism and review of the past actions). This is not something unique to the GNOME Foundation, this is a problem intrinsic in any organization voting for individuals that suddenly need to work as a compact team, and then be renewed quite often (like once a year). The problem is clearer when some individuals repeat, and some come in for the first time. Maybe a solution would be that the team leaving the board makes not only a meeting with the new board members, but also a last internal meeting to write up a public report of which things went well and why, and which things went bad and why. And/or a summary of the same questions answered individually by each board member. Hackers know that documenting is the best way to avoid known mistakes. --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-KTaz04E3pQ5RiXxb3JWq Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEi0+kBEzHYk6x634RAqbeAJ9KM9xYm0T4wGYCpXUQewmeO2aZMgCeL2F/ 880R+hSnd79e/n/kwcLeFpg= =HToh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-KTaz04E3pQ5RiXxb3JWq-- From dneary@free.fr Mon Jun 12 03:55:04 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BAE23B00D4 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 03:55:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24556-10 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 03:54:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp12.wanadoo.fr (smtp12.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.20]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32A523B0186 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 03:54:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf1201.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 2B0571C00089; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 09:54:39 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060612075439176.2B0571C00089@mwinf1201.orange.fr Message-ID: <448D1DCC.7090102@free.fr> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 09:54:52 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Neary References: <4489DB7A.6090102@free.fr> In-Reply-To: <4489DB7A.6090102@free.fr> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Foundation-List Subject: Re: Draft agenda for foundation AGM during GUADEC X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 07:55:04 -0000 Hi, David Neary wrote: > The agenda will be pretty basic - we will present what the board has > been working on and will work on for the rest of the year, get a report > on our finances from the treasurer, and have a Q&A session for the rest > of the time available. Following on from feedback, a partial list of the various initiatives and projects we'll be including is below: > Agenda > ====== > > 1. Chairman's report > > Presentation of the board, and overview of the foundation's activities > since last GUADEC. I will be handing off the conch to other board > members for particular topics. * Documentation contract * Public service * Foundation administrator role * Google SoC * Foundation organised/funded Conferences * Conference presence - EclipseCon, LinuxWorld, FOSDEM, linux.conf.au, ... * Event boxes * Communication & promotion > 2. Treasurer's report > > The state of the finances - how much money we have, what we've spent > money on, and what we plan to do with the rest. > > 3. Ongoing projects and their status * Web site redesign * Trademark agreements * Executive director * Merchandising (dormant) > 4. Questions & Answers Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From federico@ximian.com Mon Jun 12 11:55:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEDC73B009D for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:55:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09055-01 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:55:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB46E3B0078 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:55:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 21660 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2006 15:52:35 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?192.168.1.101?) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 12 Jun 2006 15:52:35 -0000 From: Federico Mena Quintero To: foundation-list@gnome.org, foundation-announce-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 10:48:18 -0500 Message-Id: <1150127298.17566.47.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Minutes of the Board meeting, 2006/Apr/05 X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:55:13 -0000 Dusting out the drawer of old minutes... GNOME Foundation Board Meeting, 2006/04/05 ========================================== Attendance: Dave (Chairing, minutes) Vincent Luis Jonathan Rosanna Jeff (0:10) Regrets: Anne Missing: Federico Actions: Luis to mail boston-social@gnome.org to look for volunteers to represent us at Boston Usenix and Boston LWE - DONE! Dave to be our liaison with marketing-list to set up the basic structure of the new www.gnome.org - ongoing Dave to request a contract from Quim for GUADEC - ongoing. We expect something by Easter. Federico to mail advisory-board-list about what members would like to obtain from the Foundation. - We'll pick it up at the meeting. Jeff to write a proposal for the technical project meeting. - ongoing. Jeff describes Ghosts of past Conferences. Something we should do for GUADEC. Luis to send mail RE LWE/Usenix: done GUADEC meetings - Deciding dates & times for advisory board and board meetings Board meeting before and Advisory after is a good idea. -Dave: We should split up the all-day board meeting so we don't wear out. -Advisory board is on Thursday, June 29th Advisory board - Preparing the meeting - Need an agenda - luis: Should we keep it to a single agenda? - bolsh: Want to turn it into something where they go to them frequently - jeff: turn it into a long term agenda Action: Get Advisory board rep for RH -Done: Gerry Riveros is representing Advisory Board fees - -We're going to go to a January billing period. Prorate people. No one has been billed yet. Axis Informática wanting to sell products with the GNOME logo (see Rodrigo's mail) -Reuse the german contract for this group (initially) -Turn it into a generic TM agreemark that people can use -Action: Contact lawyers to make sure our generic contract can work. Federico From federico@ximian.com Mon Jun 12 11:56:06 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0BB33B009D for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:56:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08921-07 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:56:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69BDF3B0010 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:56:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 21665 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2006 15:54:57 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?192.168.1.101?) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 12 Jun 2006 15:54:57 -0000 From: Federico Mena Quintero To: foundation-list@gnome.org, foundation-announce-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 10:50:41 -0500 Message-Id: <1150127441.17566.48.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Minutes of the Board meeting, 2006/Apr/26 X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:56:06 -0000 GNOME Foundation Board Meeting, 2006/04/26 ========================================== Attendance: =========== Dave Neary (Chairing, minutes) Luis Villa Anne Oestergaard Vincent Untz Jeff Waugh Missing: ======== Jonathan Blandford (arrived :50) Federico Mena Quintero Actions ======= * Dave to request a contract from Quim for GUADEC - ongoing * Jeff to write a proposal for the technical project meeting - outside scope of the board * Dave to resurrect German contract from last year so that we can use it for Axis Informática - ongoing (sent to foundation-list for round of feedback) New actions =========== ACTION: Announce US event box & contents (Vincent) ACTION: Announce final shortlist of GUADEC 07 candidates (Anne) ACTION: Dave to get feedback off Dom on the old contract, and mail the result on to foundation list ACTION: Anne to contact Tim for the name of the lawyer who worked on the agreement last year Agenda: ======= 1. Administrator * Process for hiring full-time executive director * Refine job description, and talk about the profile we're looking for We would like to hire an executive director to develop business strategy and manage our relationships with commercial and non-profit partners. We're going to take the time to hire the right person. We also need to make sure basic administration and accounting are taken care of in a timely fashion. We can continue to hire a part time administrator or out-source office services. It was agreed that outsourcing in the Boston area, where our lawyers and accountants are located, makes sense. 2. Summer of Code * Let's make sure GNOME does better (from an organisational point of view) this time Vincent and Behdad took care of organising GNOME for this. 3. GUADEC 2007 - declare list of candidates Candidates to be proposed publically on foundation-list for a public comments period. 4. Decision for the US event box (Carried on mailing list: no discussion needed) -- Federico Mena Quintero From federico@ximian.com Mon Jun 12 12:01:35 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CA2A3B008A for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 12:01:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09149-02 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 12:01:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6C8B3B0100 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 12:00:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 21670 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2006 15:59:08 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?192.168.1.101?) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 12 Jun 2006 15:59:08 -0000 From: Federico Mena Quintero To: foundation-list@gnome.org, foundation-announce-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 10:54:52 -0500 Message-Id: <1150127692.17566.50.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Minutes of the Board meeting, 2006/May/17 X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 16:01:35 -0000 GNOME Foundation Board Meeting, 2006/05/17 ========================================== Attendance: Anne Federico (minutes) Jonathan Vincent No attendance: Dave (regrets) Luis (regrets) Jeff We started the meeting on IRC since there was trouble with the phone access code. JRB came in later, fixed our code, and we started the phone meeting around 45 minutes after the IRC one. PREVIOUS ACTIONS ================ * Dave to ask Dom to refine/reduce the German contract: DONE, RFC gone to foundation-list * Anne to announce final list of GUADEC 2007 candidates: DONE. * Vincent to announce North American event box: DONE. * Luis to find out which lawyer we worked with on the contract revisions last year: NOT DONE. * JRB to get quotes for back-office services, via Owen: NOT DONE. * Jeff to send Embedded agenda to board list: NOT DONE. NEW ACTIONS =========== * Luis to find out which lawyer we worked with on the contract revisions last year (carried over from previous actions). * JRB to get quotes for back-office services, via Owen (carried over from previous actions). * Jeff and Vincent to send Embedded agenda to board list (carried over from previous actions). * Federico to send a draft job announcement to board-list for the executive director and the administrator. * Federico to write an agenda for the next Advisory Board meeting, to take place on May 31st. [Taken up by Dave] * JRB to mail board-list about invoicing Intel (hard disk crash). * JRB to send an update on what hardware has been bought for the event box. * Quim to contact HP and Novell about sponsorship for GUADEC. * Federico to mail Quim/Behdad/Germán about replacing Luis. AGENDA ====== * Invoicing GUADEC sponsors & advisory board members - Pending paperwork. * Handling conference finances - need to ask Dave about mailing Quim. * Buying stuff for the event box - how, when, what, who - need volunteers. * Financial situation - no change. * Merchandising contract - it has gone to foundation-list. * GUADEC - no update. * Ad board - we're due another meeting, it's been a month. How about in a fortnight? (UPDATE: a fortnight from now) Yes, it will be on May 31st. Federico to send an agenda and announcement. * GUADEC 2007 - It would be nice to have a public request for comments period. (UPDATE: Anne has said she'll take care of this). It's in foundation-list now. * Administrator - type of person we want, process for getting the hire going, the usual. We need to start moving forward on that, seriously. We need a full-time person working for us. No quotes for outsourcing yet. From federico@ximian.com Mon Jun 12 13:57:30 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3C333B0943 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 13:57:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21275-07 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 13:57:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peabody.ximian.com (peabody.ximian.com [130.57.169.10]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 949C23B0150 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 12:07:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 21703 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2006 16:06:26 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?192.168.1.101?) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 12 Jun 2006 16:06:26 -0000 From: Federico Mena Quintero To: foundation-list@gnome.org, foundation-announce@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:02:10 -0500 Message-Id: <1150128130.17566.52.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Minutes of the Board meeting, 2006/Jun/07 X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 17:57:30 -0000 GNOME Foundation Board Meeting, 2006/06/07 ========================================== Attendance: Anne Dave Federico Jeff Jonathan Quim (welcome, Quim!) No attendance: Vincent (regrets) PREVIOUS ACTIONS ================ PUBLIC: * Dave to request a contract from Quim for GUADEC: IN PROGRESS. Quim is taking care of this. * Dave to resurrect German contract from last year so that we can use it for Axis Informática. IN PROGRESS. Needs to go to the lawyer. * Jeff to write a proposal for the technical project meeting: IN PROGRESS * Federico to send a draft job announcement to board-list for the executive director and the administrator: NOT DONE * Federico to write an agenda for the next Advisory Board meeting, to take place on May 31st. DONE, the meeting happened. * JRB to send an update on what hardware has been bought for the event box: IN PROGRESS. * JRB to mail board-list about invoicing Intel (hard disk crash): Quim to take this action. * Quim to contact HP and Novell about sponsorship for GUADEC. DONE - both sponsoring * Federico to mail Quim/Behdad/Germán about replacing Luis. DONE NEW ACTIONS =========== * Federico to send minutes from the Advisory Board meeting to advisory-board-list. * JRB to post the contact info for the lawyer / accountant to board-list and the wiki. * Federico to make the announcement for the part-time administrator. * Jeff to write a proposal for the subcommittees. * Jeff to ensure that all the board members are in the marketing-private and board-only lists. * Dave to send draft agenda for the Advisory Board meeting, based on Federico's paper. * Anne to to take over contacts with GNOME's legal partners. AGENDA ====== * Welcome Quim to the Board: - Gave Quim a brief update on what the Board has been doing. - Quim told us that he has been reading the board-list minutes but not the archives. * Figuring out how to execute all the pending actions, and not be swamped in pending stuff all the time: - NEW ACTION: JRB to post the contact info for the lawyer / accountant to board-list and the wiki. - We are going to need a presence in the USA no matter what, for legal matters in the Foundation. * Administrator hire / outsourcing: - NEW ACTION: Federico to make the announcement for the part-time administrator. - We want to hire someone part-time immediately and will announce the vacancy and ask Zana to submit a candidature. * Increasing the board size: - Idea about letting people into board-list and into the phone calls, without them being board members. Then they can volunteer to do some of the tasks that the board can't do effectively (like someone in the USA to look for an administrator). - NEW ACTION: Jeff to write a proposal for the subcommittees. * Agendas for GUADEC: - Let's send provisional agendas in advance. - NEW ACTION: Dave to send draft agenda for the Advisory Board meeting, based on Federico's paper. From behdad.esfahbod@gmail.com Thu Jun 15 17:38:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10A073B0011 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2006 17:38:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02101-02 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2006 17:38:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.235]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CCB93B0305 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2006 17:38:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 37so427821wra for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2006 14:38:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.108.13 with SMTP id g13mr2187733wrc; Thu, 15 Jun 2006 14:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.190.5? ( [72.136.156.47]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 6sm1544376wrl.2006.06.15.14.38.10; Thu, 15 Jun 2006 14:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Women's Summer Outreach Program 2006 From: Behdad Esfahbod To: gnome-hackers@gnome.org, foundation-list@gnome.org, foundation-announce@gnome.org, gnome-announce-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 17:38:06 -0400 Message-Id: <1150407487.29623.12.camel@home> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 (2.6.1-1.fc5.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: Behdad Esfahbod X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 21:38:54 -0000 GNOME to Sponsor Female Developers in a Summer Outreach Program BOSTON, Mass - June 13, 2006 - The GNOME Foundation is offering USD$9000 to female students in order to promote the participation of women in GNOME-related development. The money originates from GNOME's participation in the Google "Summer of Code" program (code.google.com/soc/), for which GNOME developers will mentor 20 students working throughout the northern summer on GNOME-related projects. This year GNOME received 181 applications to Google's program, yet none were from women. The GNOME Foundation has therefore chosen to reinvest Google's contribution into a new program designed to increase the participation of women in GNOME. The program has no official relationship with Google. "Free software prides itself on being open to anyone with a good idea, yet less than 2% of free software developers are female. We, as a community, need to be actively working to change this statistic, and programs like this one are a much needed step in the right direction." said Hanna Wallach, a GNOME developer who is involved in several projects that encourage women to participate in free software development. The Women's Summer Outreach Program is currently accepting applications from female students. Accepted students will receive a stipend of USD $3000 over a two month period. A pool of project ideas is provided at www.gnome.org/projects/wsop/, though original proposals are also encouraged. Projects may either be related to GNOME directly, or indirectly via projects such as Gstreamer and Abiword. Each student will be assigned a mentor to provide guidance throughout the program. Vincent Untz, member of the GNOME Foundation board and coordinator of the GNOME team for Google's "Summer of Code" program, explained: "Many women have the skills required to contribute to Free Software projects like GNOME, but may not see an opportunity to start working with us. By initiating this program, not only do we want to highlight the issue, but we also hope that this opportunity will help more women to get involved in the long term." Applications should be submitted using the form at www.gnome.org/projects/wsop/. More information about the application process may be found at the same location. From mark@galassi.org Sun Jun 11 01:20:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CD043B0074; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 01:20:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11497-01; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 01:20:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agora.rdrop.com (agora.rdrop.com [199.26.172.34]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 277D23B00C1; Sun, 11 Jun 2006 01:20:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (67-42-116-199.albq.qwest.net [67.42.116.199]) (authenticated bits=0) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id k5B5IxaM059197 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 10 Jun 2006 22:19:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@galassi.org) To: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> From: Mark Galassi Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:18:04 -0600 In-Reply-To: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> (Federico Mena Quintero's message of "Fri, 09 Jun 2006 09:35:42 -0500") Message-ID: <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (agora.rdrop.com [199.26.172.34]); Sat, 10 Jun 2006 22:19:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.465 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.465 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 05:53:15 -0400 Cc: foundation-announce@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 05:20:27 -0000 Federico> 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. I hope that it will be a firm requirement that only free s/w be used to run the Foundation's administration. I know you are only talking about literacy, not what tools will be used, but I think this is a good moment to state that if we start hiring non-free-sw-hackers to do this kind of work, we should insist that they use free tools. I still remember my sadness when I worked for Cygnus and saw that the non-developers did not use free s/w across the board. From rms@gnu.org Sat Jun 17 15:56:39 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A04183B01A6; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:56:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05890-09; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:56:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7F0E3B0061; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:56:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1Frgt3-0006cU-Ba; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:55:17 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Mark Galassi In-reply-to: <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> (message from Mark Galassi on Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:18:04 -0600) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Message-Id: Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:55:17 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.549 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.051, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.549 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-announce@gnome.org, foundation-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:56:39 -0000 Federico> 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. Unless you're looking for kernel hackers, please make that "GNU/Linux literate". You probably want people who know how to edit with Emacs, write code to compile with GCC, debug with GDB, and call functions in GLIBC and GTK+. From alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk Sat Jun 17 18:05:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E96D3B095C; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:05:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11915-05; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:05:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (unknown [81.2.110.250]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8C153B0995; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:05:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k5HMK9aZ010673; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:20:09 +0100 Received: (from alan@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k5HMK8a3010672; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:20:08 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: alan set sender to alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk using -f Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Alan Cox To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:20:08 +0100 Message-Id: <1150582808.10649.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.2 (2.6.2-1.fc5.5) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.589 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.010, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.589 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-announce@gnome.org, foundation-list@gnome.org, Mark Galassi X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 22:05:03 -0000 Ar Sad, 2006-06-17 am 15:55 -0400, ysgrifennodd Richard Stallman: > Unless you're looking for kernel hackers, > please make that "GNU/Linux literate". Linux is a trademark in the USA. The use of GNU/Linux without indicating the trademark is inappropriately confusing the registered mark. And last time I checked GNOME was not a GNU project. Alan From jrb@redhat.com Sat Jun 17 18:12:06 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E29BF3B095C; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:12:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12356-02; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:12:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [66.187.233.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 567043B035D; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:12:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5HL9w54017447; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 17:09:58 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (devserv.devel.redhat.com [172.16.58.1]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5HL9wAk007091; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 17:09:58 -0400 Received: from vpn50-83.rdu.redhat.com (vpn50-83.rdu.redhat.com [172.16.50.83]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5HL9wrV027671; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 17:09:58 -0400 Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Jonathan Blandford To: Mark Galassi In-Reply-To: <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-Nx9mtySaFKPPRo++4u3H" Organization: Red Hat, Inc. Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 17:09:57 -0400 Message-Id: <1150578597.2841.94.camel@peach> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.2 (2.6.2-1.fc5.5) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.583 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.583 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-announce@gnome.org, foundation-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 22:12:06 -0000 --=-Nx9mtySaFKPPRo++4u3H Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, 2006-06-10 at 23:18 -0600, Mark Galassi wrote: > Federico> 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. >=20 > I hope that it will be a firm requirement that only free s/w be used > to run the Foundation's administration. >=20 > I know you are only talking about literacy, not what tools will be > used, but I think this is a good moment to state that if we start > hiring non-free-sw-hackers to do this kind of work, we should insist > that they use free tools. >=20 > I still remember my sadness when I worked for Cygnus and saw that the > non-developers did not use free s/w across the board. Right now, we use free tools to run almost all the foundation's books. We use gnucash, abiword, glabels[1] and gnucash for the bookkeeping. The GNOME tools are more than adequate to handle the Foundation's needs. We do have a vmware instance to run Internet Explorer just for online banking. No one on the board is happy with this situation, and we're planning on switching banks over this issue. Thanks, -Jonathan [1] which is a really nice and underpromoted program. Many kudos to the authors for doing such a slick job on this application. --=-Nx9mtySaFKPPRo++4u3H Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBElG+lEXFTqNjUZNwRAl8xAJ0anqoLKt5dgU454m1WNN3cMSw0DgCgnxu2 uNT01EAS78FHMGmDtvrSe4U= =96VV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-Nx9mtySaFKPPRo++4u3H-- From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Sat Jun 17 18:17:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EF873B035D for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:17:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12134-06 for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:17:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 740AD3B00EC for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 18:17:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 22052 invoked by uid 0); 17 Jun 2006 22:09:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.34]) (83.55.163.198) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 22:09:23 +0000 Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Quim Gil To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-BKWWivCcc2A9dMiCc/lk" Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 00:09:23 +0200 Message-Id: <1150582163.5117.119.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.489 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=1.110, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -1.489 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, Mark Galassi X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 22:17:36 -0000 --=-BKWWivCcc2A9dMiCc/lk Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El ds 17 de 06 del 2006 a les 15:55 -0400, en/na Richard Stallman va escriure: > Federico> 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. >=20 > Unless you're looking for kernel hackers, > please make that "GNU/Linux literate". In fact, in this case it would be most accurate to say "Preferably free software literate", since the skills we require from this administrator are focused on the usage of office/desktop applications. Maybe we should have simply asked for someone "preferably GNOME user". :) > You probably want people who know how to edit with Emacs, > write code to compile with GCC, debug with GDB, and call > functions in GLIBC and GTK+. Well, not at all. We are looking for an administrator (accounting, bookkeeping and so on) and not for a system administrator or a developer. Think more on the basic Internet tools, word processors, spreadsheets and accounting applications. About making this preference for free software literacy a requirement, I agree the desirable scenario would be to have an accountant hired by the GNOME Foundation and working with GNOME. But we need an accountant, urgently. Finding candidates is not easy, and the priority is to find the best accountant available. If this person doesn't know perfectly how to use the free tools available s/he can learn. Very different of hiring a great free software user/developer with just regular administrative skills. Help us finding a great administrator with the free software skills needed, and problem solved. :) PS: Richard, looking forward to seeing you next week in Barcelona. --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-BKWWivCcc2A9dMiCc/lk Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBElH2TBEzHYk6x634RAtXIAKCLt4AFrMI1nTSPHx6Jb/37wjIccgCgjaMF xsTDfjS15mNraeZqZMLEn18= =5H0p -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-BKWWivCcc2A9dMiCc/lk-- From csaavedr@wh8.tu-dresden.de Sat Jun 17 19:20:25 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEB543B00AA for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:20:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14208-01 for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:20:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de (B202a.WH8.tu-dresden.de [141.30.225.153]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 945613B0072 for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:20:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from claudio by b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1Fri1j-00079r-O8; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:08:19 +0200 Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Claudio Saavedra To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:08:19 +0200 Message-Id: <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.7.2.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.511 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=1.088, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -1.511 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, Mark Galassi X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:20:25 -0000 On Sat, 2006-06-17 at 15:55 -0400, Richard Stallman wrote: > Federico> 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate. > > Unless you're looking for kernel hackers, > please make that "GNU/Linux literate". > You probably want people who know how to edit with Emacs, > write code to compile with GCC, debug with GDB, and call > functions in GLIBC and GTK+. Even when you are right regarding the probably-irrelevant-in-context GNU/Linux issue, it worths noting that the Foundation is looking for an administrator, not a hacker. That is clearly stated in Federico's e-mail title and body. Claudio -- Claudio Saavedra From ross@golder.org Sun Jun 18 01:32:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE8D33B0078 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 01:32:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25300-01 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 01:32:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from black.golder.org (black.golder.org [81.6.249.35]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F5E73B0077 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 01:32:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by black.golder.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 912E14A91; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 06:31:48 +0100 (BST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at golder.org Received: from black.golder.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (black.golder.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N7kkDs0z54xW; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 06:31:46 +0100 (BST) Received: from [10.175.76.210] (unknown [203.170.228.172]) by black.golder.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32A6C3FE2; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 06:31:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Ross Golder To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:30:54 +0700 Message-Id: <1150608655.10699.15.camel@red> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.427 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.614, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.558] X-Spam-Score: -0.427 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, Mark Galassi X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 05:32:52 -0000 On Sat, 2006-06-17 at 15:55 -0400, Richard Stallman wrote: > You probably want people who know how to edit with Emacs, > write code to compile with GCC, debug with GDB, and call > functions in GLIBC and GTK+. I don't think that's exactly what the board had in mind when said they were after an 'administrator'. I think the requirement was to be computer literate in the sense of being able to use 'normal' user-based applications, such as word processors and spreadsheets, to manage the day-to-day running of the foundation. If they're handy with Emacs, GCC and the rest, they'd probably be wasted on doing the admin job described ;) -- Ross From rms@gnu.org Sun Jun 18 12:27:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09B433B08DE for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:27:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02641-10 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:27:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F22B23B0739 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:27:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1Fs06n-0005PA-9D; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:26:45 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Alan Cox In-reply-to: <1150582808.10649.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> (message from Alan Cox on Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:20:08 +0100) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150582808.10649.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-Id: Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:26:45 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.553 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.047, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.553 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 16:27:41 -0000 Linux is a trademark in the USA. The use of GNU/Linux without indicating the trademark is inappropriately confusing the registered mark. I could ask lawyers whether you are right, but I think there is no need to ask them unless someone makes a legal complaint. The FSF has never received one. The system as used today is basically GNU, but Linux is also an important component. We call it "GNU/Linux" partly so as to give the developers of Linux a share of the credit for the combination. If the developers of Linux prefer not to receive this share of the credit, they need only say so publicly; then if we stop adding "/Linux", people will understand that in doing so we are responding to their wishes. And last time I checked GNOME was not a GNU project. GNOME is part of the GNU project, but the two questions are independent. From rms@gnu.org Sun Jun 18 12:27:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCE733B0B52 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:27:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02678-07 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:27:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A58EF3B0862 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:27:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1Fs06o-0005PM-L2; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:26:46 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Claudio Saavedra In-reply-to: <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> (message from Claudio Saavedra on Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:08:19 +0200) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> Message-Id: Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:26:46 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.553 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.047, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.553 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 16:27:58 -0000 Even when you are right regarding the probably-irrelevant-in-context GNU/Linux issue, it worths noting that the Foundation is looking for an administrator, not a hacker. That is clearly stated in Federico's e-mail title and body. You're right; I had forgotten that. (I was looking at Mark's message which quoted those lines, not at Federico's message.) I'm sorry for causing some confusion. I ought to have said, Since you're not looking for kernel hackers, please make that "GNU/Linux literate". You probably want someone who knows how to edit with Emacs, do accounting with GNUcash and Gnumeric, operate GNOME, etc. (Quim Gil pointed out that it may be necessary to hire someone who isn't GNU/Linux literate, just to get someone soon. I'm not trying to dispute that question.) From dneary@free.fr Sun Jun 18 20:04:50 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01C193B016D for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:04:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15953-08 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:04:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from postfix1-c.free.fr (postfix1-c.free.fr [213.228.0.79]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C03463B00D9 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:04:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp4-g19.free.fr (smtp4-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.30]) by postfix1-c.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 153F01D0F8CA for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 19:47:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp4-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id B025D54B4D; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:46:55 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:46:51 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 00:04:50 -0000 Richard Stallman wrote: > Since you're not looking for kernel hackers, > please make that "GNU/Linux literate". > You probably want someone who knows how to edit with Emacs, > do accounting with GNUcash and Gnumeric, operate GNOME, etc. > > (Quim Gil pointed out that it may be necessary to hire someone > who isn't GNU/Linux literate, just to get someone soon. > I'm not trying to dispute that question.) In reality, we will likely hire someone who is already competent in the use of free software - but I agree with Quim that this should not be a requirement (obviously (at least to me), *using* free software will be part of the job, where possible). Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Mon Jun 19 02:11:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 126B23B00F5 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 02:11:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27639-03 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 02:11:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DDBF53B0768 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 02:11:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 9391 invoked by uid 0); 19 Jun 2006 03:43:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.34]) (83.57.177.1) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 03:43:17 +0000 Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Quim Gil To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-QZNJhnZwbMcdr5TNaRP4" Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 05:43:17 +0200 Message-Id: <1150688597.5156.27.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.221 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.378, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.221 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 06:11:33 -0000 --=-QZNJhnZwbMcdr5TNaRP4 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El dg 18 de 06 del 2006 a les 12:26 -0400, en/na Richard Stallman va escriure: > (Quim Gil pointed out that it may be necessary to hire someone > who isn't GNU/Linux literate, just to get someone soon. Just to avoid confusion, I didn't meant to hire someone who isn't free software literate to use non-free software tools as a GNOME administrator, but come and learn the usage of the free tools the Foundation is already using (detailed by Jonathan). A good administrator knowing the concepts and knowing to use non-free tools is very likely to learn the usage of the free tools easily. That's all. As Dave has pointed out, we have already at least one candidate able to use the current free tools. --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-QZNJhnZwbMcdr5TNaRP4 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBElh1VBEzHYk6x634RAk/wAJ9NJcxJMd5BaRvAE2lNm76/zlYR7gCfViG9 +4NfH+cpdGBCEPYrHBcIv9o= =rwa9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-QZNJhnZwbMcdr5TNaRP4-- From rms@gnu.org Mon Jun 19 16:09:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D20B3B0D15 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 16:09:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30107-07 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 16:09:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A0613B0217 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 16:09:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1FsQ39-00075Z-0M; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 16:08:43 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: David Neary In-reply-to: <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> (message from David Neary on Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:46:51 +0200) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> Message-Id: Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 16:08:43 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.56 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.040, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.56 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 20:09:41 -0000 In reality, we will likely hire someone who is already competent in the use of free software - but I agree with Quim that this should not be a requirement (obviously (at least to me), *using* free software will be part of the job, where possible). I think the Foundation should absolutely insist on using only free software. That way it will lead by example. From jdub@waugh.id.au Mon Jun 19 22:51:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED0A33B05A6 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:51:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18924-10 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from node.waugh.id.au (node.waugh.id.au [70.85.31.216]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D5A53B0301 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.waugh.id.au (unknown [81.80.162.93]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by node.waugh.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CF053C56C for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:50:56 +1000 (EST) Received: by home.waugh.id.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id F0999410E; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 04:28:04 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 04:28:04 +0200 From: Jeff Waugh To: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation Message-ID: <20060620022804.GB5152@waugh.id.au> Mail-Followup-To: foundation-list@gnome.org References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: X-Message-Flag: Cranky? Try Free Software instead! X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.15-25-686 i686 Reply-By: Fri Jun 23 04:26:14 CEST 2006 X-Uptime: 04:26:14 up 8:30, 5 users, load average: 0.02, 0.07, 0.03 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.59 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.009, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.59 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 02:51:52 -0000 > In reality, we will likely hire someone who is already competent in the > use of free software - but I agree with Quim that this should not be a > requirement (obviously (at least to me), *using* free software will be > part of the job, where possible). > > I think the Foundation should absolutely insist on using only free > software. That way it will lead by example. That is not under question. The suggestion Quim made is that having *prior experience* in the use of Free Software need not be necessary - however, the successful applicant will *absolutely* USE Free Software in their role, no questions asked. - Jeff -- GUADEC 2006: Vilanova i la Geltrú, Spain http://2006.guadec.org/ "The GPL is good. Use it. Don't be silly." - Michael Meeks From dneary@free.fr Tue Jun 20 02:45:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B618A3B0248 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 02:45:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30248-07 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 02:45:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp6.orange.fr (smtp6.orange.fr [193.252.22.25]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41B9C3B0085 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 02:45:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp6.orange.fr (mwinf0604 [172.22.137.26]) by mwinf0610.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 2703A804F6D for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:43:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.79.150] (LSt-Amand-152-32-18-62.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.127.57.62]) by mwinf0604.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 61BB21C001CE; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:43:18 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20060620064318400.61BB21C001CE@mwinf0604.orange.fr Message-ID: <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:43:43 +0200 From: Dave Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 06:45:20 -0000 Hi, Richard Stallman wrote: > In reality, we will likely hire someone who is already competent in the > use of free software - but I agree with Quim that this should not be a > requirement (obviously (at least to me), *using* free software will be > part of the job, where possible). > > I think the Foundation should absolutely insist on using only free > software. That way it will lead by example. As Jonathan pointed out, our bank has a website which does some rather evil platform detection, and refuses to run on anything other than IE. So we are obliged to have a Windows instance installed, or we can not use this bank's online services. We have made our issue known, and are investigating changing banks. Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary bolsh@gimp.org From baris@teamforce.name.tr Tue Jun 20 04:44:28 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B05333B0F52 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 04:44:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03469-07 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 04:44:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nerd.com.tr (unknown [69.60.117.115]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 354883B0F3F for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 04:44:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nerd.com.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52DE578503C; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 05:47:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nerd.com.tr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (nerd.com.tr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06570-08; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 05:47:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (unknown [81.213.157.51]) by nerd.com.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C6AA78503B; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 05:47:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Baris Cicek To: Dave Neary In-Reply-To: <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-PXVkvwvUKTNQvc8SbOVI" Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 11:43:47 +0300 Message-Id: <1150793027.2669.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 (2.6.1-1.fc5.2) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at nerd.com.tr X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.26 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.339, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.26 X-Spam-Level: Cc: mark@galassi.org, rms@gnu.org, foundation-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:44:28 -0000 --=-PXVkvwvUKTNQvc8SbOVI Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That might be a little technical and maybe out of this discussion boundaries but, why instead of making IE run over wine, you use more than necessary non-free software? (ie. Windows, VMWARE). I bet are already paid, but I use wine for IE related stuff, and it "just works". Besides, I find Linux (or GNU/Linux) literate expression a little problematic, because generally people use Computer Literate, and by default thinking it as Windows computer. To overcome this issue, best thing to do might be to call it as Computer Literate, and list the applications that applicant should know like OpenOffice.org and Firefox, gnuCash and even Linux. Once you know this applications, I doubt Linux Desktop learning curve would be steep for any applicant. This way it might solve the problem for those who would not apply for job since they don't know Linux, as people would see themselves as computer literate.=20 On Tue, 2006-06-20 at 08:43 +0200, Dave Neary wrote: > Hi, >=20 > Richard Stallman wrote: > > In reality, we will likely hire someone who is already competent in= the > > use of free software - but I agree with Quim that this should not b= e a > > requirement (obviously (at least to me), *using* free software will= be > > part of the job, where possible). > >=20 > > I think the Foundation should absolutely insist on using only free > > software. That way it will lead by example. >=20 > As Jonathan pointed out, our bank has a website which does some rather > evil platform detection, and refuses to run on anything other than IE. > So we are obliged to have a Windows instance installed, or we can not > use this bank's online services. We have made our issue known, and are > investigating changing banks. >=20 > Cheers, > Dave. >=20 --=-PXVkvwvUKTNQvc8SbOVI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEl7VD62fLHU++kcURAhtHAJ9UHIjP9z0fmc8pWeouqiuiYqpLQQCgpRsS tMw7PLzygujdDmZirBXFPkc= =t2gV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-PXVkvwvUKTNQvc8SbOVI-- From rms@gnu.org Tue Jun 20 13:56:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 728673B0302 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:56:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01985-06 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:56:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EF1A3B01C9 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:56:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1FskSW-0002Fm-Nl; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:56:16 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Dave Neary In-reply-to: <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> (message from Dave Neary on Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:43:43 +0200) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> Message-Id: Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:56:16 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.562 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.038, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.562 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 17:56:47 -0000 As Jonathan pointed out, our bank has a website which does some rather evil platform detection, and refuses to run on anything other than IE. This is worse than I realized. The Foundation is not only using user-subjugating software, it is using a bank that pressures its customers to do so. That makes two reasons to stop. Running Internet Explorer on GNU/Linux using Wine, which someone suggested, is not a real solution because IE itself is proprietary software. That approach avoids Windows, but doesn't avoid IE. Until you find another bank, you could stop dealing with the bank on line, and do business with it the old-fashioned way, with paper, phone calls, and/or visits to the bank office. It may be inconvenient, but it freedom is worth a small sacrifice. However, another approach is worth thinking about. What is the obstacle to programming a free browser so that it pretends to be IE? That would be the really desirable solution. What bank is it? Maybe the FSF and the GNOME Foundation can organize a pressure campaign for the bank to change its policies. From jrb@redhat.com Tue Jun 20 14:14:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FD993B0302 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03318-07 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx1.redhat.com (mx1.redhat.com [66.187.233.31]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9EA73B002A for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (int-mx1.corp.redhat.com [172.16.52.254]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5KIEXeM012200; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:33 -0400 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (devserv.devel.redhat.com [172.16.58.1]) by int-mx1.corp.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5KIEXXl005041; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:33 -0400 Received: from dhcp83-106.boston.redhat.com (dhcp83-106.boston.redhat.com [172.16.83.106]) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5KIEXLi014411; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Jonathan Blandford To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-TDVQMLZFU5CgYyjlCe+L" Organization: Red Hat, Inc. Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:43 -0400 Message-Id: <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.2 (2.6.2-1.fc5.5) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.585 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.585 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 18:14:51 -0000 --=-TDVQMLZFU5CgYyjlCe+L Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable *shrug* Online banking is a new feature for this bank. We told them we were planning on switching banks if they didn't support Firefox or other browsers, and they said that they would look into it. I wouldn't expect them to support it overnight, and given the expense of switching banks, I wouldn't want to switch immediately. I don't know what a 'reasonable time' is for this, but we are probably just approaching it. Additionally, if you recall, the original purpose of this thread was to help find an administrator for the GNOME Foundation. I would expect the new admin to switch banks if we can't use Firefox or epiphany, but we're not exactly operating on all cylinders right now. Thanks, -Jonathan --=-TDVQMLZFU5CgYyjlCe+L Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEmDsSEXFTqNjUZNwRAk3oAKCr9C48KXFinXyWgIoIWP4UHrpfLgCdFdAI cvXosbkKBwWsgF8uQHhkKDA= =puHs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-TDVQMLZFU5CgYyjlCe+L-- From rms@gnu.org Tue Jun 20 19:32:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 822E23B038F for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:32:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24251-01 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:32:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D1E83B03D8 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:32:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1FspiH-0005lF-Iv; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:32:53 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Jonathan Blandford In-reply-to: <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> (message from Jonathan Blandford on Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:14:43 -0400) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-Id: Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:32:53 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.564 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.036, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.564 X-Spam-Level: Cc: dneary@free.fr, foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 23:32:56 -0000 Online banking is a new feature for this bank. We told them we were planning on switching banks if they didn't support Firefox or other browsers, and they said that they would look into it. I wouldn't expect them to support it overnight, It would be counterproductive to hurry them to decide; and if they decide to switch, they need time to do the work. However, that doesn't mean the GNOME Foundation needs to use non-free software. Since on-line banking is a new feature for them, you can do without it while waiting. Accepting inconveniences rather than using non-free software is a great way to show by example that freedom is important. From ross@golder.org Tue Jun 20 21:29:15 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97CDF3B0357 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 21:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29296-09 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 21:29:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from black.golder.org (black.golder.org [81.6.249.35]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D70683B043E for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 21:29:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by black.golder.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5740940DD; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:29:12 +0100 (BST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at golder.org Received: from black.golder.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (black.golder.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nWXZNpqFnBff; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:29:09 +0100 (BST) Received: from red (unknown [125.24.70.244]) by black.golder.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6E9A40AB; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:29:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Ross Golder To: Jonathan Blandford In-Reply-To: <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:28:24 +0700 Message-Id: <1150853304.5559.28.camel@red> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.536 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.063, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.536 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , mark@galassi.org, rms@gnu.org, foundation-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 01:29:15 -0000 On Tue, 2006-06-20 at 14:14 -0400, Jonathan Blandford wrote: > *shrug* > > Online banking is a new feature for this bank. We told them we were > planning on switching banks if they didn't support Firefox or other > browsers, and they said that they would look into it. I wouldn't expect > them to support it overnight, and given the expense of switching banks, > I wouldn't want to switch immediately. It shouldn't be hard to find a bank that does support our needs, open an account with them, transfer the money from the old account, close the old account, update some docs/notes. I can't see it costing more than a few hours and maybe a few dollars. A reasonably motivated administrator should have that done in a day or two, I'd have thought, then they won't have to sit around waiting for our bank to fix their systems. I'm curious as to why the account was opened with the current bank in the first place, without a basic check that their on-line facilities were suitable. It seems a bit odd. I'm not looking to assign blame to anyone, just to make sure it's a mistake learned from and something similar won't happen again at the foundation's cost. I'm also curious about who the current bank is :) > Additionally, if you recall, the original purpose of this thread was to > help find an administrator for the GNOME Foundation. I would expect the > new admin to switch banks if we can't use Firefox or epiphany, but we're > not exactly operating on all cylinders right now. > A good first job for them then. Also, would it be possible for them to write a brief monthly report to the foundation-list about their month's activities and expenses etc. It might help make things a little more transparent/accountable. -- Ross From mark@galassi.org Sat Jun 17 19:01:04 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F6E53B0080; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:01:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13804-04; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:01:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agora.rdrop.com (agora.rdrop.com [199.26.172.34]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A04713B00B2; Sat, 17 Jun 2006 19:01:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (67-42-116-199.albq.qwest.net [67.42.116.199]) (authenticated bits=0) by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id k5HMCnLH009742 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:12:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@galassi.org) To: Jonathan Blandford Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578597.2841.94.camel@peach> From: Mark Galassi Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 16:12:38 -0600 In-Reply-To: <1150578597.2841.94.camel@peach> (Jonathan Blandford's message of "Sat, 17 Jun 2006 17:09:57 -0400") Message-ID: <87k67fh1nt.fsf@galassi.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (agora.rdrop.com [199.26.172.34]); Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:12:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.465 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.465 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:19:47 -0400 Cc: foundation-announce@gnome.org, foundation-list@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 23:01:04 -0000 >> I hope that it will be a firm requirement that only free s/w be >> used to run the Foundation's administration. Jonathan> Right now, we use free tools to run almost all the Jonathan> foundation's books. [...] I'm glad to hear this. I'm always embarassed when I see managers using Windows and PowerPoint to present the advantages of "open source". Although I guess their sense of self-irony should be applauded. From arieltenor@gmail.com Tue Jun 20 15:09:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 068543B01C9 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:09:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07446-06 for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:09:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.169]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BE073B01AB for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:09:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id o2so3159054uge for ; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.58.11 with SMTP id g11mr2888428hua; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.70.5 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 14:09:48 -0500 From: "Ariel Rios" To: rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.34 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.260, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.34 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:19:47 -0400 Cc: Dave Neary , foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:09:54 -0000 > However, another approach is worth thinking about. What is the > obstacle to programming a free browser so that it pretends to be IE? > That would be the really desirable solution. I faced a similar issue with a Mexican bank that only supported Explorer. I downloaded the great User Agent Switcher extension for Firefox so I can use the site. Maybe that can also help for this specific bank. ariel From dneary@free.fr Wed Jun 21 02:20:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE14A3B0ACC for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:20:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12587-05 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:20:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2-g19.free.fr (smtp2-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.28]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A34173B07CA for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:20:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.2.1] (mne69-3-82-225-22-32.fbx.proxad.net [82.225.22.32]) by smtp2-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8471730DA; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:20:13 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4498E519.1090207@free.fr> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:20:09 +0200 From: David Neary User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060615) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ross Golder Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> <1150827283.2416.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1150853304.5559.28.camel@red> In-Reply-To: <1150853304.5559.28.camel@red> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org, Jonathan Blandford , rms@gnu.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 06:20:21 -0000 Hi, Ross Golder wrote: > It shouldn't be hard to find a bank that does support our needs, open an > account with them, transfer the money from the old account, close the > old account, update some docs/notes. I can't see it costing more than a > few hours and maybe a few dollars. A reasonably motivated administrator > should have that done in a day or two, I'd have thought, then they won't > have to sit around waiting for our bank to fix their systems. Update our records in various invoicing systems, go through paypal confirmation with the new account, get a credit card set up, change the credit card number with various suppliers, ... Changing banks, as anyone who has done so can tell you, is a pain - you end up finding out months afterwards that people you hadn't thought of still have your old bank details for electronic payments. > I'm also curious > about who the current bank is :) It's no secret - it's Silicon Valley Bank. I have no idea how or why they were chosen. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary bolsh@gimp.org Lyon, France From qgil@desdeamericaconamor.org Wed Jun 21 03:32:26 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C367B3B073E for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 03:32:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17098-07 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 03:32:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from servidor.almenara.org (unknown [213.149.238.22]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 265943B0302 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 03:32:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 32359 invoked by uid 0); 21 Jun 2006 07:32:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.103]) (213.96.45.171) by 213.149.238.22 with SMTP; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 07:32:23 +0000 Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation From: Quim Gil To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-9NcbC9D9ObPWb6tVSAvd" Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:17:02 +0200 Message-Id: <1150849022.5111.76.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.092 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.320, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_06_12=0.827] X-Spam-Score: -2.092 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Dave Neary , foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 07:32:27 -0000 --=-9NcbC9D9ObPWb6tVSAvd Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El dt 20 de 06 del 2006 a les 13:56 -0400, en/na Richard Stallman va escriure: > Until you find another bank, you could stop dealing with the bank on > line, and do business with it the old-fashioned way, with paper, phone > calls, and/or visits to the bank office. It may be inconvenient, but > it freedom is worth a small sacrifice. Just to note that things are more complicated than this, applying your recommendation now would put GUADEC 2006 at risk. --=20 Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org --=-9NcbC9D9ObPWb6tVSAvd Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aix=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=E9s?= una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBEmI/+BEzHYk6x634RAli9AJ0Yl9ujZ51x8OevVFK6Od/EFrrVJgCgoRr9 /W9wXSuuUwhdaf48E+BWTbg= =2S6J -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-9NcbC9D9ObPWb6tVSAvd-- From rms@gnu.org Wed Jun 21 13:03:43 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9037F3B00AE for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:03:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23401-05 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:03:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [199.232.76.164]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EDA03B02D1 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:03:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1Ft67A-0003cy-2e; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:03:40 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Quim Gil In-reply-to: <1150849022.5111.76.camel@localhost> (message from Quim Gil on Wed, 21 Jun 2006 02:17:02 +0200) Subject: Re: Required: Administrator for the Foundation References: <1149863743.3733.0.camel@cacharro.xalalinux.org> <87slmcnucz.fsf@galassi.org> <1150578499.7328.13.camel@b202a.wh8.tu-dresden.de> <44959F9B.6090801@free.fr> <4497991F.7020203@free.fr> <1150849022.5111.76.camel@localhost> Message-Id: Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:03:40 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.566 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.034, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001] X-Spam-Score: -2.566 X-Spam-Level: Cc: dneary@free.fr, foundation-list@gnome.org, mark@galassi.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:03:43 -0000 Just to note that things are more complicated than this, applying your recommendation now would put GUADEC 2006 at risk. GUADEC will be finished a week from now; after a few more weeks go by, it surely won't be hard to use pen and paper for the remaining bills. From murrayc@murrayc.com Thu Jun 22 06:07:43 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E8513B035E for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 06:07:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14936-06 for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 06:07:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com (webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com [66.33.201.159]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC4DB3B0254 for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 06:07:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.murrayc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by webmail1.sd.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E839A2C203 for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 03:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 194.138.18.132 (proxying for unknown) (SquirrelMail authenticated user murrayc@murrayc.com) by webmail.murrayc.com with HTTP; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 12:07:39 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <16193.194.138.18.132.1150970859.squirrel@webmail.murrayc.com> Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 12:07:39 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Code Of Conduct draft #2 From: "Murray Cumming" To: foundation-list@gnome.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.56 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.039, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.56 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 10:07:43 -0000 Here's my latest draft of the Code Of Conduct, or whatever we end up calling it: http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct I think the main content is done. More text would make the whole thing less ineresting. But I'm having particular difficulty writing the summary. Ideally it should be short, snappy, and inspirational. Murray Cumming murrayc@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com From vuntz@gnome.org Thu Jun 22 11:20:59 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7440A3B0689; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 11:20:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05338-02; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 11:20:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fennas.vuntz.net (fennas.vuntz.net [82.228.182.88]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C25A13B0495; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 11:20:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by fennas.vuntz.net (Postfix, from userid 33) id 6E19D112693; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 17:20:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 129.88.38.77 (SquirrelMail authenticated user vuntz) by vuntz.net with HTTP; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 17:20:56 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <50469.129.88.38.77.1150989656.squirrel@vuntz.net> Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 17:20:56 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Intel joins the GNOME Foundation's Advisory Board From: "Vincent Untz" To: foundation-announce@gnome.org, foundation-list@gnome.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.561 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.038, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.561 X-Spam-Level: Cc: advisory-board@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 15:20:59 -0000 The GNOME Foundation is welcoming Intel as an Advisory Board member. This is part of Intel's increasing commitment to GNOME and to the free software desktop. We are delighted to have Intel on board: it will help us continue our bet of combining the passion of the GNOME community with the need for quality, stability and long term plans of big players who are increasingly interested and involved in free software development. With Intel joining, the Advisory Board member now consists of twelve established industry companies and projects. More informations on the Foundation's Advisory Board is available at: http://foundation.gnome.org/about/ Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. From waldo.bastian@intel.com Thu Jun 22 13:26:06 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABAE43B0785; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 13:26:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13095-04; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 13:26:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fmsmga101-1.fm.intel.com (mga01.intel.com [192.55.52.88]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F9093B0731; Thu, 22 Jun 2006 13:26:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fmsmga001.fm.intel.com ([10.253.24.23]) by fmsmga101-1.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 22 Jun 2006 10:25:59 -0700 Received: from orsmsx335.jf.intel.com (HELO orsmsx335.amr.corp.intel.com) ([10.22.226.40]) by fmsmga001.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 22 Jun 2006 10:23:13 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.06,166,1149490800"; d="scan'208"; a="56897970:sNHT90202169617" Received: from orsmsx409.amr.corp.intel.com ([192.168.65.58]) by orsmsx335.amr.corp.intel.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 22 Jun 2006 10:23:12 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Intel joins the GNOME Foundation's Advisory Board Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 10:23:11 -0700 Message-ID: <8AEB79DC01BE994D8DE3FD02FA5B475B03DFAAAE@orsmsx409> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Intel joins the GNOME Foundation's Advisory Board thread-index: AcaWD46K6AKg5uJfSieruaiGax8vKQAAhTNA From: "Bastian, Waldo" To: "Vincent Untz" , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Jun 2006 17:23:12.0881 (UTC) FILETIME=[8A39EE10:01C69620] X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.56 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.039, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.56 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 15:54:11 -0400 Cc: advisory-board@gnome.org X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 17:26:07 -0000 >The GNOME Foundation is welcoming Intel as an Advisory Board member. >This is part of Intel's increasing commitment to GNOME and to the >free software desktop. > >We are delighted to have Intel on board: it will help us continue our >bet of combining the passion of the GNOME community with the need for >quality, stability and long term plans of big players who are >increasingly interested and involved in free software development. > >With Intel joining, the Advisory Board member now consists of twelve >established industry companies and projects. More informations on the >Foundation's Advisory Board is available at: > > http://foundation.gnome.org/about/ > > >Vincent Thanks Vincent, It has been a pleasure working with the GNOME community as part of Intel's OSDL and LSB efforts, and I hope that being on the GNOME Advisory Board will create an even more productive working relationship between us and the GNOME community. As you have observed, coming from a KDE background, it has at times been a challenge for me to zero in on the right people in the GNOME community to engage on matters of mutual interest. Our participation in the Advisory Board should make that process far easier. Through OSDL and LSB, bridging the gaps between industry leading Linux desktop environments for the benefit of users and application developers has been an important goal for us. We very much appreciate the opportunity work more closely with the GNOME community to realize that goal. I look forward to meeting with all of you next week at GUADEC. Waldo Bastian Linux Client Architect - Client Linux Foundation Technology Channel Platform Solutions Group Intel Corporation - http://www.intel.com/go/linux OSDL DTL Tech Board Chairman From gpoo@ubiobio.cl Tue Jun 27 13:52:11 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Delivered-To: foundation-list@gnome.org Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7D4C3B0083 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:52:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11203-01 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:52:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay.ubiobio.cl (atlas.dci.ubiobio.cl [146.83.195.21]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C63223B0168 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:51:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by forward.ubiobio.cl (Postfix) with ESMTP id D23DF4002A7 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:51:12 -0400 (CLT) Received: from pegasus.dci.ubiobio.cl ([146.83.195.11]) by localhost (antivirus.dci.ubiobio.cl [146.83.195.21]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04061-75 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:51:12 -0400 (CLT) Received: from mimos.local (proxlinux.epsevg.upc.es [147.83.156.10]) by pegasus.dci.ubiobio.cl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 503E9280035D for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:51:11 -0400 (CLT) Subject: Ask for schedule board's meetings From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Germ=E1n_Po=F3_Caama=F1o?= To: foundation-list@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:51:07 -0400 Message-Id: <1151430667.15979.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at ubiobio.cl X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.464 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.135] X-Spam-Score: -2.464 X-Spam-Level: X-BeenThere: foundation-list@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion relating to the GNOME Foundation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:52:12 -0000 After the GNOME Foundation AGM I got the feeling (probably I not the only one) that there is a communication problem about what they are doing and where they need helps from the members. Don't forget the Foundation are we all of us. As a member is our obligation to ask for information, for instance, ask for the minutes of the board's meetings. But, how to ask if we don't know when the meetings happen. We only know it happen every two week, but not exactly or if they didn't take place. So, I ask to the board to publish the schedule of the meetings for this year. I think it is a easy task for the board that can help us to control and ask for information and try to give to them a hand in any task they need. Best regards, -- Germán Poó-Caamaño http://www.ubiobio.cl/~gpoo/ Concepción - Chile