On Nov 15, 2007 6:59 AM, Yves-Gwenael Bourhis < ybourhis@mandriva.com> wrote:

Le = lundi 12 novembre 2007, vous avez =E9crit:

>= ; Doesn't the Deskbar applet already do just that? Select text in any
> application and press Alt+F5 to search for it. You might need to t= urn on
> that feature separately, but it's definitely there.
&= gt; _______________________________________________
> Usability maili= ng list
> Usability@gnome.org
= > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability

= Tried but doesn't work here :-(
Alt+F5 resizes my windows...
And never seen this either before... a = "usability" problem ;-)
It should be in a meny, as shortcuts a= re not all "known" by users, and may be
different with differe= nt distro's settings.
If it exist, it should be made intuitive in "usability" terms= .

--
Yves-Gwena=EBl Bourhis=

Mandriva
Consumer Support Team

http://people.mandriva.com/~ybourhis/

______________= _________________________________
Usability mailing list
Usability@gnome.org
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability

--
Atenciosamente,
Luiz Vitor.

------=_Part_7842_28815574.1195165148302-- From moreno_pg@mochima.com Fri Nov 16 18:37:16 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6083A7500AC for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2007 18:37:16 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) (up: 3491 hrs), (distance 15, link: ethernet/modem), [74.208.11.96] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BMdSbaREIccF for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2007 18:37:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.net-domino.com (www.net-domino.com [74.208.11.96]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 373F17500A2 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2007 18:37:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (u15245314.onlinehome-server.com [74.208.11.96]) by mail.net-domino.com (8.13.7/8.13.6) with ESMTP id lAGIap4J003731 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2007 14:37:02 -0400 Message-ID: <473DE51E.3070806@mochima.com> Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 13:44:46 -0500 From: Carlos Moreno User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: usability@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Added-Header: Sample_milter accepted message Subject: [Usability] An idea (menus and launchers) X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 18:37:16 -0000 I recently came up with an idea of what could be a nice/useful detail for a desktop, so I thought I'd throw the idea here (not sure if the idea is original/unexplored, or even if it has been already done). Anyway, it's related to the Recent Documents, or rather, the Recently Used Files in the applications. The idea is quite simple; instead of (or in addition to) having just one Recent Documents in the "Places" menu, each particular menu item for an application could/should have a sub- menu with the recent documents. Also, and I think this is the nicer part of my idea, *the launchers* should have a sub-menu as soon as there are documents recently used for the corresponding application. If the user clicks on the launcher itself, then the application opens as usual (e.g., with a blank document); if the user clicks on the little arrow next to the launcher (the "drop-down" arrow), then the Recent Documents list opens underneath the icon. I put two silly images to illustrate the idea. This is what the Panel, with an OpenOffice Writer launcher, would look like when I have not opened any Writer documents: http://www.mochima.com/tmp/gnome-launcher_no_recent_docs.png Then, as the user opens/saves Writer documents, the launcher would now look like this: http://www.mochima.com/tmp/gnome-launcher_with_recent_docs.png (notice that this one is what it looks like *when the user clicks on the little arrow* at the right bottom corner of the launcher icon). The launcher could have an effect like the toolbar buttons (what I'm describing here is typically done with toolbar icons --- for instance, the "New Document" icon in OpenOffice has a drop-down selection of Writer / Calc / Presentation / etc.), where the button gets a "double outline" to make it obvious that we want the drop-down list. Of course, for the menus I didn't create an image --- it is quite obvious for the menus --- the menu item corresponding to the application gets a sub-menu with its related recent documents; and it is obvious for the user what it means and what to do about it. Does it sound like an interesting and implementable idea? Carlos -- From kdesltd@gmail.com Fri Nov 16 19:31:06 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B9257500BD for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2007 19:31:06 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) (firewall!) (up: 1260 hrs), (distance 15, link: (Google 2)), [209.85.128.188] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yMjEoMemp5v1 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2007 19:31:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from fk-out-0910.google.com (fk-out-0910.google.com [209.85.128.188]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 958D57500A2 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2007 19:31:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: by fk-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id e30so475678fke for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2007 11:31:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.82.174.20 with SMTP id w20mr4903814bue.1195241457569; Fri, 16 Nov 2007 11:30:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.82.149.5 with HTTP; Fri, 16 Nov 2007 11:30:57 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 14:30:57 -0500 From: "Kevin Carlson" To: "Carlos Moreno" In-Reply-To: <473DE51E.3070806@mochima.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_11666_15926771.1195241457334" References: <473DE51E.3070806@mochima.com> Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] An idea (menus and launchers) X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 19:31:06 -0000 ------=_Part_11666_15926771.1195241457334 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I like the idea, at least for the launcher. I'm not sure how this would work in a menu, unless you out a menu option that would create a new document, but this is an extra click or motion, for functionality that may or may not be used. Putting it in the launcher icon sounds like a good idea, though. On Nov 16, 2007 1:44 PM, Carlos Moreno wrote: > > I recently came up with an idea of what could be a nice/useful detail > for a desktop, so I thought I'd throw the idea here (not sure if the > idea is original/unexplored, or even if it has been already done). > > Anyway, it's related to the Recent Documents, or rather, the Recently > Used Files in the applications. The idea is quite simple; instead of (or > in addition to) having just one Recent Documents in the "Places" menu, > each particular menu item for an application could/should have a sub- > menu with the recent documents. Also, and I think this is the nicer > part of my idea, *the launchers* should have a sub-menu as soon as > there are documents recently used for the corresponding application. > > If the user clicks on the launcher itself, then the application opens as > usual (e.g., with a blank document); if the user clicks on the little > arrow next to the launcher (the "drop-down" arrow), then the Recent > Documents list opens underneath the icon. > > I put two silly images to illustrate the idea. This is what the Panel, > with an OpenOffice Writer launcher, would look like when I have > not opened any Writer documents: > > http://www.mochima.com/tmp/gnome-launcher_no_recent_docs.png > > Then, as the user opens/saves Writer documents, the launcher would > now look like this: > > http://www.mochima.com/tmp/gnome-launcher_with_recent_docs.png > > (notice that this one is what it looks like *when the user clicks on the > little arrow* at the right bottom corner of the launcher icon). > > The launcher could have an effect like the toolbar buttons (what I'm > describing here is typically done with toolbar icons --- for instance, > the "New Document" icon in OpenOffice has a drop-down selection > of Writer / Calc / Presentation / etc.), where the button gets a "double > outline" to make it obvious that we want the drop-down list. > > Of course, for the menus I didn't create an image --- it is quite obvious > for the menus --- the menu item corresponding to the application gets > a sub-menu with its related recent documents; and it is obvious for > the user what it means and what to do about it. > > Does it sound like an interesting and implementable idea? > > Carlos > -- > > _______________________________________________ > Usability mailing list > Usability@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability > ------=_Part_11666_15926771.1195241457334 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I like the idea, at least for the launcher. I'm not sure how this would work in a menu, unless you out a menu option that would create a new document, but this is an extra click or motion, for functionality that may or may not be used. Putting it in the launcher icon sounds like a good idea, though.

On Nov 16, 2007 1:44 PM, Carlos Moreno <moreno_pg@mochima.com> wrote:

I recently came up with an idea of what could be a nice/useful detail
for a desktop, so I thought I'd throw the idea here (not sure if the
idea is original/unexplored, or even if it has been already done).

Anyway, it's related to the Recent Documents, or rather, the Recently
Used Files in the applications. The idea is quite simple; instead of (or
in addition to) having just one Recent Documents in the "Places" menu,
each particular menu item for an application could/should have a sub-
menu with the recent documents. Also, and I think this is the nicer
part of my idea, *the launchers* should have a sub-menu as soon as
there are documents recently used for the corresponding application.

If the user clicks on the launcher itself, then the application opens as
usual (e.g., with a blank document); if the user clicks on the little
arrow next to the launcher (the "drop-down" arrow), then the Recent
Documents list opens underneath the icon.

I put two silly images to illustrate the idea. This is what the Panel,
with an OpenOffice Writer launcher, would look like when I have
not opened any Writer documents:

http://www.mochima.com/tmp/gnome-launcher_no_recent_docs.png

Then, as the user opens/saves Writer documents, the launcher would
now look like this:

http://www.mochima.com/tmp/gnome-launcher_with_recent_docs.png

(notice that this one is what it looks like *when the user clicks on the
little arrow* at the right bottom corner of the launcher icon).

The launcher could have an effect like the toolbar buttons (what I'm
describing here is typically done with toolbar icons --- for instance,
the "New Document" icon in OpenOffice has a drop-down selection
of Writer / Calc / Presentation / etc.), where the button gets a "double
outline" to make it obvious that we want the drop-down list.

Of course, for the menus I didn't create an image --- it is quite obvious
for the menus --- the menu item corresponding to the application gets
a sub-menu with its related recent documents; and it is obvious for
the user what it means and what to do about it.

Does it sound like an interesting and implementable idea?

Carlos
--

_______________________________________________
Usability mailing list
Usability@gnome.org
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability

------=_Part_11666_15926771.1195241457334-- From moreno_pg@mochima.com Fri Nov 16 20:03:40 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BADCF7500BD for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2007 20:03:40 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) (up: 3494 hrs), (distance 15, link: ethernet/modem), [74.208.11.96] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZM6M0GCdvOC9 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2007 20:03:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.net-domino.com (www.net-domino.com [74.208.11.96]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4D8E7500AC for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2007 20:03:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (u15245314.onlinehome-server.com [74.208.11.96]) by mail.net-domino.com (8.13.7/8.13.6) with ESMTP id lAGK3MIf004805 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:03:32 -0400 Message-ID: <473DF969.1040202@mochima.com> Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 15:11:21 -0500 From: Carlos Moreno User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: usability@gnome.org References: <473DE51E.3070806@mochima.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Added-Header: Sample_milter accepted message Subject: Re: [Usability] An idea (menus and launchers) X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 20:03:40 -0000 Kevin Carlson wrote: > I like the idea, at least for the launcher. I'm not sure how this > would work in a menu, unless you out a menu option that would create a > new document Not necessarily --- the way I see it, the modification both for the launcher and for the menu, is equivalent. With the launcher, the way it is right now, you click on it, you open the application; if the application by default opens with a blank, newly-created document, that's its business, and the Desktop environment has no saying in that. Exactly the same thing with the menu. You click on the menu for the application, and the application simply opens (with or without a blank document). So, with the modification I proposed, both would get an exactly equivalent modification: if the user has never opened documents for the particular application, then both the launcher and the menu would be exactly as they are right now. As soon as the user opens a document, then the launcher gets its little arrow to open a list of recent documents, and the menu item gets a sub-menu with the list of recent documents. IMHO, both are necessary to maintain consistency. Thanks, Carlos -- From roguexz@gmail.com Sat Nov 17 12:28:15 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74B097500BD for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2007 12:28:15 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) (firewall!) (up: 2902 hrs), (distance 12, link: (Google 2)), [209.85.198.184] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9QnjiqfYMiOk for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2007 12:28:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rv-out-0910.google.com (rv-out-0910.google.com [209.85.198.184]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E720A7500A2 for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2007 12:28:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id k20so948590rvb for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2007 04:28:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.140.188.10 with SMTP id l10mr1148630rvf.1195302491647; Sat, 17 Nov 2007 04:28:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.1.102? ( [122.167.107.210]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f10sm2672282rvb.2007.11.17.04.28.08 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 17 Nov 2007 04:28:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <473EDDFD.6080105@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 17:56:37 +0530 From: Rogue User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071115) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: usability@gnome.org References: <473DE51E.3070806@mochima.com> <473DF969.1040202@mochima.com> In-Reply-To: <473DF969.1040202@mochima.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 OpenPGP: id=0BF1E756 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [Usability] An idea (menus and launchers) X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 12:28:15 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Carlos Moreno wrote: > Kevin Carlson wrote: >> I like the idea, at least for the launcher. I'm not sure how this >> would work in a menu, unless you out a menu option that would create a >> new document > > Not necessarily --- the way I see it, the modification both for the > launcher > and for the menu, is equivalent. Nice!! Does that mean that it would technically be possible to support the idea of a category-menu-item opening into available items? More like what I had proposed quite some time back [1] [2] - -Rogue 1 - http://roguexz.blogspot.com/2007/07/problem-of-many.html 2 - http://www.nabble.com/An-idea-about-representing-groups-of-programs-as-one-entity-t4154465.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHPt39ceS9IQvx51YRAqF7AKCEewc2j5ukn4TVR2PWAgqzrKnrUQCeIFP2 /hIkvswrDbM7TPe1urb4ohg= =coKX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From yyovkov@yyovkov.net Sun Nov 25 14:21:57 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03F4E750095 for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 14:21:57 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.762 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.762 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, L_P0F_UNKN=0.8, NO_REAL_NAME=0.961] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: UNKNOWN [S4:46:1:60:M1460, S, T, N, W4:.:?:?] (up: 10107 hrs), (link: ethernet/modem), [193.193.164.158] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0LMP1JaPhXQt for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 14:21:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sion.yyovkov.net (sion.yyovkov.net [193.193.164.158]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F6A2750196 for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 14:21:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from yyovkov.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by sion.yyovkov.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A764727BA1 for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 16:21:24 +0200 (EET) Received: from 193.193.164.153 (SquirrelMail authenticated user yyovkov) by yyovkov.net with HTTP; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 16:21:24 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <57786.193.193.164.153.1196000484.squirrel@yyovkov.net> Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 16:21:24 +0200 (EET) From: yyovkov@yyovkov.net To: usability@gnome.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.8-4.0.1..el5.centos.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal Subject: [Usability] Gnome kyboard switching X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 14:21:57 -0000 Hello all, I hope this is the right place to ask about this. I am searching for solution to change my keyboard as per application. It means if I have changed to bulgarian (cyrillic) in pidgin, when I close the current conversation window and later on when open new one my input language to be the same (cyrillic). I do not know if it is possible currently in gnome. I mean - not, because I have search for such feature but I did not found. The same feature is available in KDE. It is available even in Windows XP, why we have not such in GNOME? Regards, Yovko Yovkov From dario.soto@gmail.com Sun Nov 25 18:12:46 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 230417500F1 for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 18:12:46 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.224 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.224 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_30_40=0.374, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) (firewall!) (up: 3893 hrs), (distance 15, link: (Google 2)), [209.85.132.251] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dHnHrjN1SRBl for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 18:12:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from an-out-0708.google.com (an-out-0708.google.com [209.85.132.251]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 257A975010C for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 18:12:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c34so70878anc for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 10:12:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.248.9 with SMTP id v9mr2303190anh.1196014331220; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 10:12:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.90.51.19 with HTTP; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 10:12:11 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 14:12:11 -0400 From: Dokuro To: usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_33525_7466722.1196014331189" References: <57786.193.193.164.153.1196000484.squirrel@yyovkov.net> Subject: [Usability] Fwd: Gnome kyboard switching X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 18:12:46 -0000 ------=_Part_33525_7466722.1196014331189 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Dokuro Date: Nov 25, 2007 2:10 PM Subject: Re: [Usability] Gnome kyboard switching To: yyovkov@yyovkov.net i honestly don't know if gnome keeps that variable, someone must know, it should be as part of the window properties like it's size and position, the keyboard language! it would solve me a lot of clicking or button pressing! it could be a button on the tittle bar! that would be awesome! a little icon next to the minimize button On Nov 25, 2007 10:21 AM, wrote: > Hello all, > > I hope this is the right place to ask about this. > > I am searching for solution to change my keyboard as per application. It > means if I have changed to bulgarian (cyrillic) in pidgin, when I close > the current conversation window and later on when open new one my input > language to be the same (cyrillic). I do not know if it is possible > currently in gnome. I mean - not, because I have search for such feature > but I did not found. > The same feature is available in KDE. It is available even in Windows XP, > why we have not such in GNOME? > > Regards, > Yovko Yovkov > > _______________________________________________ > Usability mailing list > Usability@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability > ------=_Part_33525_7466722.1196014331189 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Dokuro <dario.soto@gmail.com>
Date: Nov 25, 2007 2:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Usability] Gnome kyboard switching
To: yyovkov@yyovkov.net

i honestly don't know if gnome keeps that variable, someone must know, it should be as part of the window properties like it's size and position, the keyboard language! it would solve me a lot of clicking or button pressing! it could be a button on the tittle bar! that would be awesome! a little icon next to the minimize button

On Nov 25, 2007 10:21 AM, <yyovkov@yyovkov.net> wrote:

Hello all,

I hope this is the right place to ask about this.

I am searching for solution to change my keyboard as per application. It
means if I have changed to bulgarian (cyrillic) in pidgin, when I close
the current conversation window and later on when open new one my input
language to be the same (cyrillic). I do not know if it is possible
currently in gnome. I mean - not, because I have search for such feature
but I did not found.
The same feature is available in KDE. It is available even in Windows XP,
why we have not such in GNOME?

Regards,
Yovko Yovkov

_______________________________________________
Usability mailing list
Usability@gnome.org
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability

------=_Part_33525_7466722.1196014331189-- From caleb.marcus@gmail.com Sun Nov 25 18:40:58 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A017750178 for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 18:40:58 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.464 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.464 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_50_60=0.134, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) (firewall!) (up: 1994 hrs), (distance 12, link: (Google 2)), [64.233.166.180] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6bNnpeeSP5ov for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 18:40:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.180]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7428F750118 for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 18:40:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id a25so989559pyi for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 10:40:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.64.148.8 with SMTP id v8mr3862734qbd.1196016021243; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 10:40:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.1.103? ( [65.78.17.140]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id a5sm558214qbd.2007.11.25.10.40.19 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 25 Nov 2007 10:40:20 -0800 (PST) From: Caleb Marcus To: Dokuro In-Reply-To: References: <57786.193.193.164.153.1196000484.squirrel@yyovkov.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-DY7gaVEQINg/pBRZLnZO" Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 13:40:18 -0500 Message-Id: <1196016018.5428.0.camel@caleb-laptop> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.12.1 Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Fwd: Gnome kyboard switching X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 18:40:58 -0000 --=-DY7gaVEQINg/pBRZLnZO Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=-dWMqh+IENJ4k5UAB4kEk" --=-dWMqh+IENJ4k5UAB4kEk Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Try using the Keyboard Indicator panel applet... I think if you set "Separate Group for Each Window" in the Keyboard Properties window, the settings you set on the applet will stick to each window. On Sun, 2007-11-25 at 14:12 -0400, Dokuro wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Dokuro > Date: Nov 25, 2007 2:10 PM > Subject: Re: [Usability] Gnome kyboard switching > To: yyovkov@yyovkov.net >=20 >=20 > i honestly don't know if gnome keeps that variable, someone must know, > it should be as part of the window properties like it's size and > position, the keyboard language! it would solve me a lot of clicking > or button pressing! it could be a button on the tittle bar! that would > be awesome! a little icon next to the minimize button=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Nov 25, 2007 10:21 AM, wrote: >=20 > Hello all, > =20 > I hope this is the right place to ask about this. > =20 > I am searching for solution to change my keyboard as per > application. It > means if I have changed to bulgarian (cyrillic) in pidgin, > when I close=20 > the current conversation window and later on when open new one > my input > language to be the same (cyrillic). I do not know if it is > possible > currently in gnome. I mean - not, because I have search for > such feature=20 > but I did not found. > The same feature is available in KDE. It is available even in > Windows XP, > why we have not such in GNOME? > =20 > Regards, > Yovko Yovkov > =20 > _______________________________________________=20 > Usability mailing list > Usability@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Usability mailing list > Usability@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability --=-dWMqh+IENJ4k5UAB4kEk Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Try using the Keyboard Indicator panel applet... I think if you set "S= eparate Group for Each Window" in the Keyboard Properties window, the = settings you set on the applet will stick to each window.
On Sun, 2007-11-25 at 14:12 -0400, Dokuro wrote:

---------- Forwarded message ----------<= BR> From: Dokuro<= /B> <dario.soto@gmail.com>
Date: Nov 25, 2007 2:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Usability] Gnome kyboard switchin= g
To: yyov= kov@yyovkov.net

i honestly don't know if gnome keeps that varia= ble, someone must know, it should be as part of the window properties like = it's size and position, the keyboard language! it would solve me a lot of c= licking or button pressing! it could be a button on the tittle bar! that wo= uld be awesome! a little icon next to the minimize button

On Nov 25, 2007 10:21 AM, <yyovkov@yyovkov.net> wrote:

Hello all,

I hope this is the right place to ask about= this.

I am searching for solution to change my ke= yboard as per application. It
means if I have changed to bulgarian (cyril= lic) in pidgin, when I close
the current conversation window and later o= n when open new one my input
language to be the same (cyrillic). I do no= t know if it is possible
currently in gnome. I mean - not, because I= have search for such feature
but I did not found.
The same feature is available in KDE. It is= available even in Windows XP,
why we have not such in GNOME?

Regards,
Yovko Yovkov

___________________________________________= ____
Usability mailing list
Usab= ility@gnome.org
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability

_______________________________________________ Usability mailing list Usability@gn= ome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability

--=-dWMqh+IENJ4k5UAB4kEk-- --=-DY7gaVEQINg/pBRZLnZO Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBHScGSX2SHyykm3j4RAuOIAKCn4qvPpcsDUFUbfAYVhWiDUjoJqACggXEZ CbVLtljRbJYqqaVqLpHjgFg= =HBIw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-DY7gaVEQINg/pBRZLnZO-- From sergey.udaltsov@gmail.com Sun Nov 25 19:05:02 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76C01750090 for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 19:05:02 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.486 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.486 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.113, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) (firewall!) (up: 1998 hrs), (distance 12, link: (Google 2)), [64.233.166.179] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z2J2D0JOxH-P for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 19:05:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.179]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27763750089 for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 19:04:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id a25so1000751pyi for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 11:04:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.141.170.10 with SMTP id x10mr731487rvo.1196017469144; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 11:04:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.141.86.5 with HTTP; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 11:04:29 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <48890e640711251104w4f789681l1e3d1a4d044ebcd3@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 19:04:29 +0000 From: "Sergey Udaltsov" To: usability@gnome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Subject: Re: [Usability] Gnome kyboard switching X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 19:05:02 -0000 > I hope this is the right place to ask about this. > > I am searching for solution to change my keyboard as per application. It In GNOME, similar option is available for ages. Look for "Separate layout for each window" checkbox. But it does now save its state after the window is closed. > The same feature is available in KDE. It is available even in Windows XP, > why we have not such in GNOME? That's news for me. How do you do it in XP? Sergey From yyovkov@yyovkov.net Sun Nov 25 23:08:55 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FF99750090 for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 23:08:55 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.664 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.664 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_50_60=0.134, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, L_P0F_UNKN=0.8] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: UNKNOWN [S4:46:1:60:M1460, S, T, N, W4:.:?:?] (up: 10195 hrs), (link: ethernet/modem), [193.193.164.158] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wBzqVh9xu3IF for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 23:08:53 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sion.yyovkov.net (sion.yyovkov.net [193.193.164.158]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A16B4750089 for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 23:08:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (home.yyovkov.net [85.187.5.224]) by sion.yyovkov.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70C3A27D40; Mon, 26 Nov 2007 01:08:22 +0200 (EET) From: Yovko Yovkov To: Caleb Marcus In-Reply-To: <1196016018.5428.0.camel@caleb-laptop> References: <57786.193.193.164.153.1196000484.squirrel@yyovkov.net> <1196016018.5428.0.camel@caleb-laptop> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=-z8Gir6t8JJ/UvJPgqOA0" Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 01:08:22 +0200 Message-Id: <1196032102.8765.3.camel@aerion.castle.yyovkov.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.12.1 (2.12.1-3.fc8) Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Fwd: Gnome kyboard switching X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 23:08:55 -0000 --=-z8Gir6t8JJ/UvJPgqOA0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, I am using it. But it is different. In the case I have describe, every time I have new message I want to answer, I need to switch to bg language. It is terrible if in the mean time I ma using gnome-terminal for example. On Sun, 2007-11-25 at 13:40 -0500, Caleb Marcus wrote: > Try using the Keyboard Indicator panel applet... I think if you set > "Separate Group for Each Window" in the Keyboard Properties window, > the settings you set on the applet will stick to each window. > On Sun, 2007-11-25 at 14:12 -0400, Dokuro wrote: > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > From: Dokuro > > Date: Nov 25, 2007 2:10 PM > > Subject: Re: [Usability] Gnome kyboard switching > > To: yyovkov@yyovkov.net > > > > > > i honestly don't know if gnome keeps that variable, someone must > > know, it should be as part of the window properties like it's size > > and position, the keyboard language! it would solve me a lot of > > clicking or button pressing! it could be a button on the tittle bar! > > that would be awesome! a little icon next to the minimize button > > > > > > > > On Nov 25, 2007 10:21 AM, wrote: > > > > Hello all, > > > > I hope this is the right place to ask about this. > > > > I am searching for solution to change my keyboard as per > > application. It > > means if I have changed to bulgarian (cyrillic) in pidgin, > > when I close > > the current conversation window and later on when open new > > one my input > > language to be the same (cyrillic). I do not know if it is > > possible > > currently in gnome. I mean - not, because I have search for > > such feature > > but I did not found. > > The same feature is available in KDE. It is available even > > in Windows XP, > > why we have not such in GNOME? > > > > Regards, > > Yovko Yovkov > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Usability mailing list > > Usability@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Usability mailing list > > Usability@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability > > _______________________________________________ > Usability mailing list > Usability@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability --=-z8Gir6t8JJ/UvJPgqOA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes,

I am using it. But it is different. In the case I have describe, every time I have new message I want to answer, I need to switch to bg language. It is terrible if in the mean time I ma using gnome-terminal for example.

On Sun, 2007-11-25 at 13:40 -0500, Caleb Marcus wrote:

Try using the Keyboard Indicator panel applet... I think if you set "Separate Group for Each Window" in the Keyboard Properties window, the settings you set on the applet will stick to each window.
On Sun, 2007-11-25 at 14:12 -0400, Dokuro wrote:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Dokuro <dario.soto@gmail.com>
Date: Nov 25, 2007 2:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Usability] Gnome kyboard switching
To: yyovkov@yyovkov.net

i honestly don't know if gnome keeps that variable, someone must know, it should be as part of the window properties like it's size and position, the keyboard language! it would solve me a lot of clicking or button pressing! it could be a button on the tittle bar! that would be awesome! a little icon next to the minimize button

On Nov 25, 2007 10:21 AM, <yyovkov@yyovkov.net> wrote:

Hello all,

I hope this is the right place to ask about this.

I am searching for solution to change my keyboard as per application. It
means if I have changed to bulgarian (cyrillic) in pidgin, when I close
the current conversation window and later on when open new one my input
language to be the same (cyrillic). I do not know if it is possible
currently in gnome. I mean - not, because I have search for such feature
but I did not found.
The same feature is available in KDE. It is available even in Windows XP,
why we have not such in GNOME?

Regards,
Yovko Yovkov

_______________________________________________
Usability mailing list
Usability@gnome.org
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability

_______________________________________________ Usability mailing list Usability@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability

_______________________________________________ Usability mailing list Usability@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability

--=-z8Gir6t8JJ/UvJPgqOA0-- From hpj@novell.com Wed Nov 28 23:23:41 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE681750145 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2007 23:23:41 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.4-2.6 (up: 261 hrs), (distance 11, link: PIX, SMC, sometimes wireless), [137.65.250.26] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g1lJYZDmomM9 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2007 23:23:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from victor.provo.novell.com (victor.provo.novell.com [137.65.250.26]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D4557500A9 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2007 23:23:11 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.0.0.105] (prv-dmz-foundry1.gns.novell.com [137.65.251.211]) by victor.provo.novell.com with ESMTP; Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:23:06 -0700 From: Hans Petter Jansson To: Usability Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Novell, Inc. Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:23:19 -0600 Message-Id: <1196292199.16075.39.camel@kzerza.site> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.12.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: David Reveman , thomas@thurman.org.uk Subject: [Usability] Discoverable off-screen window dragging X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 23:23:42 -0000 I've been discussing accessibility/usability with visually impaired users lately, and one thing that came up, and that I believe to be low-hanging fruit, is the problem of windows being bigger than the screen in one or both dimensions. This happens frequently for visually impaired users, since they generally have very large fonts. I was told by one user that the way he worked around this was by going to the control panel, choosing a smaller font temporarily, moving the window, then setting the big font again. Of course, he was very happy to hear about the alt+drag shortcut. Which made me wonder if there's a more discoverable way of moving windows around when they're too big/partially off-screen. One idea that came up was automatically adding scrollbars to the windows, but I don't see how that could work reliably, and it would clutter the screen and be error-prone/hard to do technically. A better idea might be something like the following logic in the window manager: IF window is focused AND pointer is pushing against the edge of the screen AND window has area off that edge of the screen AND user is not dragging THEN move the window in the opposite direction of the edge being pushed So e.g. if you have a focused window which is partially off the right-hand side of the screen, and you push your pointer against that side, bumping into the edge, the window will move to the left until you can see its right-edge frame. The rate of movement would be equal to the number of pixels the pointer "wants" to move off-screen at each increment. Only the focused window would be affected. I think this would be a lot more discoverable and useful for everyone - not just visually impaired users - and it looks like all the required information is available to the window manager, so it shouldn't be terribly hard to implement. Thoughts? -- Hans Petter From newren@gmail.com Thu Nov 29 03:40:51 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3E55750116 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 03:40:51 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.572 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.572 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.027, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.4-2.6 (Google crawlbot) (firewall!) (up: 562 hrs), (distance 14, link: (Google 2)), [64.233.184.236] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yzoukfGfSrbp for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 03:40:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.236]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 683D17500A9 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 03:40:21 +0000 (GMT) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id c55so1406142wra for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:40:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.115.74.1 with SMTP id b1mr108249wal.1196307618513; Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:40:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.210.13 with HTTP; Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:40:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <51419b2c0711281940r2874ccbbrea0ff933ceb22938@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 20:40:18 -0700 From: "Elijah Newren" To: "Hans Petter Jansson" In-Reply-To: <1196292199.16075.39.camel@kzerza.site> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1196292199.16075.39.camel@kzerza.site> Cc: David Reveman , Usability , thomas@thurman.org.uk Subject: Re: [Usability] Discoverable off-screen window dragging X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 03:40:52 -0000 Hi, On Nov 28, 2007 4:23 PM, Hans Petter Jansson wrote: > I was told by one user that the way he worked around this was by going > to the control panel, choosing a smaller font temporarily, moving the > window, then setting the big font again. Of course, he was very happy to > hear about the alt+drag shortcut. The user couldn't grab the titlebar and click and drag? Why the font change? > A better idea might be something like the following logic in the window > manager: > > IF window is focused AND > pointer is pushing against the edge of the screen AND > window has area off that edge of the screen AND the window is larger than the "screen" in the given direction AND > user is not dragging > THEN > move the window in the opposite direction of the edge being pushed Sounds reasonable, if the above addition is included. However one case to think about...do you mean off the edge of the screen, or off the edge of the "screen". Think about the case where the user has a screen reader that takes up the right half the screen. As screen readers act like panels, this would make the "screen" size effectively half the screen size. Do you want to do scrolling in that case as well? Does the user have to hit the edge of the screen or the edge of the "screen" to make the scrolling happen? > So e.g. if you have a focused window which is partially off the > right-hand side of the screen, and you push your pointer against that > side, bumping into the edge, the window will move to the left until you > can see its right-edge frame. The rate of movement would be equal to the > number of pixels the pointer "wants" to move off-screen at each > increment. Only the focused window would be affected. A stupid question: How does one determine in the WM when the mouse is hitting the edge of the screen and how much it would go past (so one can know how much to scroll)? I don't know about compiz, but metacity at least doesn't get MotionNotify events unless it has done a grab for some reason (e.g. during click-and-drag to move the window). Elijah From hpj@novell.com Thu Nov 29 06:02:02 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA99B7501CB for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 06:02:02 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.4-2.6 (up: 328 hrs), (distance 11, link: PIX, SMC, sometimes wireless), [137.65.250.26] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W8EEwM49bycx for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 06:02:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from victor.provo.novell.com (victor.provo.novell.com [137.65.250.26]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 309B27501C5 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 06:01:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.0.0.105] (prv-dmz-foundry1.gns.novell.com [137.65.251.211]) by victor.provo.novell.com with ESMTP; Wed, 28 Nov 2007 23:01:18 -0700 From: Hans Petter Jansson To: Elijah Newren In-Reply-To: <51419b2c0711281940r2874ccbbrea0ff933ceb22938@mail.gmail.com> References: <1196292199.16075.39.camel@kzerza.site> <51419b2c0711281940r2874ccbbrea0ff933ceb22938@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Novell, Inc. Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 00:01:31 -0600 Message-Id: <1196316091.16075.104.camel@kzerza.site> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.12.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: David Reveman , Usability , thomas@thurman.org.uk Subject: Re: [Usability] Discoverable off-screen window dragging X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 06:02:02 -0000 On Wed, 2007-11-28 at 20:40 -0700, Elijah Newren wrote: > On Nov 28, 2007 4:23 PM, Hans Petter Jansson wrote: > > I was told by one user that the way he worked around this was by going > > to the control panel, choosing a smaller font temporarily, moving the > > window, then setting the big font again. Of course, he was very happy to > > hear about the alt+drag shortcut. > The user couldn't grab the titlebar and click and drag? Why the font change? I think this was a dialog that was too tall for the screen, and he wanted to reach the OK button at the bottom. So the titlebar would be off the top, and even if it wasn't, he wouldn't be able to drag it past the top of the screen. Making the font smaller would make the OK button come into view. > > A better idea might be something like the following logic in the window > > manager: > > > > IF window is focused AND > > pointer is pushing against the edge of the screen AND > > window has area off that edge of the screen AND > the window is larger than the "screen" in the given direction AND > > user is not dragging > > THEN > > move the window in the opposite direction of the edge being pushed > Sounds reasonable, if the above addition is included. However one I don't think that addition is necessary, as I think panning your windows into view would be nice regardless. But I guess it might surprise some people. I'm not that attached to that aspect of it, so if others think it's a bad idea I don't mind the extra check. > case to think about...do you mean off the edge of the screen, or off > the edge of the "screen". Think about the case where the user has a > screen reader that takes up the right half the screen. As screen > readers act like panels, this would make the "screen" size effectively > half the screen size. Do you want to do scrolling in that case as > well? Does the user have to hit the edge of the screen or the edge of > the "screen" to make the scrolling happen? I'm partial to using the physical screen edge in order to keep it simple and avoid surprises. I certainly wouldn't want it to start scrolling when you reach the panel, either. > A stupid question: How does one determine in the WM when the mouse is > hitting the edge of the screen and how much it would go past (so one > can know how much to scroll)? I don't know about compiz, but metacity > at least doesn't get MotionNotify events unless it has done a grab for > some reason (e.g. during click-and-drag to move the window). I don't know off the top of my head, but techniques should be look-upable in some a11y apps - like the screen magnifier - which work without exotic X extensions. -- Hans Petter From khadgaray@gmail.com Thu Nov 29 06:40:50 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F3447501CE for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 06:40:50 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.569 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.569 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.030, BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) (firewall!) (up: 1454 hrs), (distance 18, link: (Google 2)), [66.249.92.168] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bBKm+3cPAVq6 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 06:40:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.168]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81F09750116 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 06:40:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id c2so1746337ugf for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2007 22:40:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.66.237.14 with SMTP id k14mr102590ugh.1196318416160; Wed, 28 Nov 2007 22:40:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?123.236.162.30? ( [123.236.162.30]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m5sm560912gve.2007.11.28.22.40.04 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 28 Nov 2007 22:40:14 -0800 (PST) From: ritz To: Hans Petter Jansson In-Reply-To: <1196292199.16075.39.camel@kzerza.site> References: <1196292199.16075.39.camel@kzerza.site> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:08:10 +0530 Message-Id: <1196318290.32522.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.12.1 (2.12.1-3.fc8) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: David Reveman , Usability , thomas@thurman.org.uk Subject: Re: [Usability] Discoverable off-screen window dragging X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 06:40:50 -0000 Hello a possible workaround is to use a large Virtual screen size in xorg.conf. On Wed, 2007-11-28 at 17:23 -0600, Hans Petter Jansson wrote: > I've been discussing accessibility/usability with visually impaired > users lately, and one thing that came up, and that I believe to be > low-hanging fruit, is the problem of windows being bigger than the > screen in one or both dimensions. > > This happens frequently for visually impaired users, since they > generally have very large fonts. > > I was told by one user that the way he worked around this was by going > to the control panel, choosing a smaller font temporarily, moving the > window, then setting the big font again. Of course, he was very happy to > hear about the alt+drag shortcut. > > Which made me wonder if there's a more discoverable way of moving > windows around when they're too big/partially off-screen. > > One idea that came up was automatically adding scrollbars to the > windows, but I don't see how that could work reliably, and it would > clutter the screen and be error-prone/hard to do technically. > > A better idea might be something like the following logic in the window > manager: > > IF window is focused AND > pointer is pushing against the edge of the screen AND > window has area off that edge of the screen AND > user is not dragging > THEN > move the window in the opposite direction of the edge being pushed > > So e.g. if you have a focused window which is partially off the > right-hand side of the screen, and you push your pointer against that > side, bumping into the edge, the window will move to the left until you > can see its right-edge frame. The rate of movement would be equal to the > number of pixels the pointer "wants" to move off-screen at each > increment. Only the focused window would be affected. > > I think this would be a lot more discoverable and useful for everyone - > not just visually impaired users - and it looks like all the required > information is available to the window manager, so it shouldn't be > terribly hard to implement. > > Thoughts? > -- Ritesh Khadgaray à¥ à¤®à¤£à¤¿ à¤ªà¤¦à¥à¤®à¥‡ à¤¹à¥‚à¤ Desktop LinuX N Stuff Ph: +919970164885 Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway. Fedora is the best of what works today. Enterprise Linux is the best of what will work consistently for the next seven years. From hpj@novell.com Thu Nov 29 06:46:04 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF9177501CE for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 06:46:04 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.4-2.6 (up: 335 hrs), (distance 11, link: PIX, SMC, sometimes wireless), [137.65.250.26] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q53gnwjG7gMc for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 06:46:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from victor.provo.novell.com (victor.provo.novell.com [137.65.250.26]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6498A750116 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 06:45:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.0.0.105] (prv-dmz-foundry1.gns.novell.com [137.65.251.211]) by victor.provo.novell.com with ESMTP; Wed, 28 Nov 2007 23:45:25 -0700 From: Hans Petter Jansson To: ritz In-Reply-To: <1196318290.32522.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1196292199.16075.39.camel@kzerza.site> <1196318290.32522.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Novell, Inc. Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 00:45:39 -0600 Message-Id: <1196318739.16075.119.camel@kzerza.site> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.12.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: David Reveman , Usability , thomas@thurman.org.uk Subject: Re: [Usability] Discoverable off-screen window dragging X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 06:46:04 -0000 On Thu, 2007-11-29 at 12:08 +0530, ritz wrote: > a possible workaround is to use a large Virtual screen size in > xorg.conf. That's painful because it's harder to reach the panel, and there's no visual indication of where you are in the virtual screen. Plus windows could get too large anyway. -- Hans Petter From dario.soto@gmail.com Thu Nov 29 12:59:34 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87C757501E3 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:59:34 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) (firewall!) (up: 4801 hrs), (distance 15, link: (Google 2)), [209.85.132.241] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qKNDg5YciEnc for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:59:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from an-out-0708.google.com (an-out-0708.google.com [209.85.132.241]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A65367500B5 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:59:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c34so423723anc for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 04:58:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.135.16 with SMTP id i16mr5342777and.1196341139691; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 04:58:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.90.51.19 with HTTP; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 04:58:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:58:59 -0400 From: Dokuro To: Usability@gnome.org In-Reply-To: <1196318739.16075.119.camel@kzerza.site> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1196292199.16075.39.camel@kzerza.site> <1196318290.32522.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1196318739.16075.119.camel@kzerza.site> Subject: Re: [Usability] Discoverable off-screen window dragging X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:59:34 -0000 >> a possible workaround is to use a large Virtual screen size in >> xorg.conf. > >That's painful because it's harder to reach the panel, and there's no >visual indication of where you are in the virtual screen. Plus windows >could get too large anyway. Is like having a 1024 resolution over a 800 one, you are centered on the 1024 and and move around in a 800 area, but the menu bars should be like a hud in a video game moving with the view of the user (so they don't get lost), and the view will move around when the mouse moves to the edge of the 800 window while being on a virtual 1024 resolution. I have seen this happen while in dual screen mode with a TV and a Monitor, the monitor has a bigger resolution and the TV does not, so the TV moves when the mouse goes too far on the edge. of course the menus stayed put on their position, but that should not happen. It could be a little annoying, because it would act as if looking thought a screen from a smaller screen.... some parameters should be added in order to keep it controllable, it could be set to work as an extra thing, activate virtual resolution, and draw some lines that allow such movement of the visual area. If you need a comparison, read or play metroid prime on wii using the beginners control scheme. This game has a virtual box where the "cursor" moves out of this invisible box, the view shifts. I thought that gnome knew when the mouse was on an edge, because KDE had it... we should ad it! :) On Nov 29, 2007 2:45 AM, Hans Petter Jansson wrote: > On Thu, 2007-11-29 at 12:08 +0530, ritz wrote: > > > a possible workaround is to use a large Virtual screen size in > > xorg.conf. > > That's painful because it's harder to reach the panel, and there's no > visual indication of where you are in the virtual screen. Plus windows > could get too large anyway. > > -- > Hans Petter > > > _______________________________________________ > Usability mailing list > Usability@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability > From mattnuzum@gmail.com Thu Nov 29 16:32:20 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D3347500E3 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:32:20 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) (firewall!) (up: 8050 hrs), (distance 16, link: (Google 2)), [64.233.182.185] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ynYpXYi6gO2c for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:32:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.185]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 880117500CD for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:31:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id f5so1578761nfh for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:31:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.82.183.19 with SMTP id g19mr4027692buf.1196353906029; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:31:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.82.170.9 with HTTP; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:31:45 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:31:45 -0600 From: "Matthew Nuzum" Sender: mattnuzum@gmail.com To: "Hans Petter Jansson" In-Reply-To: <1196318739.16075.119.camel@kzerza.site> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_15190_19621598.1196353906020" References: <1196292199.16075.39.camel@kzerza.site> <1196318290.32522.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1196318739.16075.119.camel@kzerza.site> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 605c2ed148d7c9b5 Cc: David Reveman , Usability , thomas@thurman.org.uk Subject: Re: [Usability] Discoverable off-screen window dragging X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:32:20 -0000 ------=_Part_15190_19621598.1196353906020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Nov 29, 2007 12:45 AM, Hans Petter Jansson wrote: > On Thu, 2007-11-29 at 12:08 +0530, ritz wrote: > > > a possible workaround is to use a large Virtual screen size in > > xorg.conf. > > That's painful because it's harder to reach the panel, and there's no > visual indication of where you are in the virtual screen. Plus windows > could get too large anyway. > Maybe a goal for the future would be to make effective use of compiz for this type of stuff. For example: When I use magnifier I get very frustrated because the usability of the screen overall is poor, though it does make it easier to read text. So a solution is to use a more normal sized font and screen resolution and then use windows key+mouse wheel to zoom in on text or details. So if a person wanted things to be bigger, they could be given an option instead of font sizes that effectively zooms using compiz. Then, when they needed to see the big picture, they could use the win+mouse wheel to go out. Yes, I know, its very rough. But it could work. Think of the iphone and the pinch feature. -- Matthew Nuzum newz2000 on freenode ------=_Part_15190_19621598.1196353906020 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Nov 29, 2007 12:45 AM, Hans Petter Jansson <hpj@novell.com> wrote:

On Thu, 2007-11-29 at 12:08 +0530, ritz wrote:

> a possible workaround is to use a large Virtual screen size in
> xorg.conf.

That's painful because it's harder to reach the panel, and there's no
visual indication of where you are in the virtual screen. Plus windows
could get too large anyway.

Maybe a goal for the future would be to make effective use of compiz for this type of stuff. For example:

When I use magnifier I get very frustrated because the usability of the screen overall is poor, though it does make it easier to read text. So a solution is to use a more normal sized font and screen resolution and then use windows key+mouse wheel to zoom in on text or details.

So if a person wanted things to be bigger, they could be given an option instead of font sizes that effectively zooms using compiz. Then, when they needed to see the big picture, they could use the win+mouse wheel to go out.

Yes, I know, its very rough. But it could work. Think of the iphone and the pinch feature.

--
Matthew Nuzum
newz2000 on freenode ------=_Part_15190_19621598.1196353906020-- From Martin_Harris@pmc-sierra.com Thu Nov 29 22:58:51 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CAE57500EC for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:58:51 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.739 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.739 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.74, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.4-2.6 (up: 575 hrs), (distance 18, link: ethernet/modem), [216.241.226.183] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iBe5cLSahMeN for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:58:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pmxedge1.pmc-sierra.bc.ca (pmc216-241-226-183.pmc-sierra.bc.ca [216.241.226.183]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D652A750088 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:58:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from bby1exg02.pmc_nt.nt.pmc-sierra.bc.ca (BBY1EXG02.pmc-sierra.bc.ca [216.241.231.167]) by pmxedge1.pmc-sierra.bc.ca (8.13.4/8.12.7) with ESMTP id lATMwHHX015807 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 14:58:17 -0800 Received: from sjc1exm07.pmc_nt.nt.pmc-sierra.bc.ca ([209.68.180.68]) by bby1exg02.pmc_nt.nt.pmc-sierra.bc.ca with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 29 Nov 2007 14:58:17 -0800 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C832DB.53D0076D" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 14:58:16 -0800 Message-ID: <0D9C015985B074418F8B783E85BA2AC4012565FC@sjc1exm07.pmc_nt.nt.pmc-sierra.bc.ca> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: UI Responsiveness Thread-Index: Acgy2uu8MYjyqV0dSNyZc+cGH+9czQAAFcgg From: "Martin Harris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Nov 2007 22:58:17.0087 (UTC) FILETIME=[542310F0:01C832DB] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:17:14 +0000 Subject: [Usability] FW: UI Responsiveness X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:58:51 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C832DB.53D0076D Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Are there any time constraints on HIG in terms of responsiveness? I think I read once a general rule of 10 seconds. =20 Also, has there been any talk about making UIs accountable for real-time responsiveness (low-latency interactivity)? Is there anything in the overall system that could require a UI to respond in 10 seconds, 1 second, etc? =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C832DB.53D0076D Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Are there any time constraints on HIG in terms of = responsiveness? I think I read once a general rule of 10 = seconds.

Also, has there been any talk about making UIs = accountable for real-time responsiveness (low-latency interactivity)? Is there = anything in the overall system that could require a UI to respond in 10 seconds, 1 = second, etc?

------_=_NextPart_001_01C832DB.53D0076D-- From Calum.Benson@Sun.COM Thu Nov 29 23:20:28 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BE17750200 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:20:28 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.254 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.254 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.344, BAYES_00=-2.599, L_P0F_Unix=-1, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Solaris 10 (beta), (distance 23, link: ethernet/modem), [192.18.6.24] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gsu4jPvHtTdI for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:20:21 +0000 (GMT) Received: from gmp-eb-mail-2.sun.com (gmp-eb-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.6.24]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DDAB750193 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:19:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from fe-emea-10.sun.com (gmp-eb-lb-2-fe2.eu.sun.com [192.18.6.11]) by gmp-eb-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id lATNJoDE027435 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:19:50 GMT Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-emea-10.sun.com by fe-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JSA00401JAATJ00@fe-emea-10.sun.com> (original mail from Calum.Benson@Sun.COM) for usability@gnome.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:19:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([213.202.137.203]) by fe-emea-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JSA00AC4JH17570@fe-emea-10.sun.com>; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:19:50 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:19:46 +0000 From: Calum Benson In-reply-to: <0D9C015985B074418F8B783E85BA2AC4012565FC@sjc1exm07.pmc_nt.nt.pmc-sierra.bc.ca> Sender: Calum.Benson@Sun.COM To: Martin Harris Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <0D9C015985B074418F8B783E85BA2AC4012565FC@sjc1exm07.pmc_nt.nt.pmc-sierra.bc.ca> Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] FW: UI Responsiveness X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:20:28 -0000 On 29 Nov 2007, at 22:58, Martin Harris wrote: > Are there any time constraints on HIG in terms of responsiveness? > Yes, see http://library.gnome.org/devel/hig-book/stable/feedback- responsiveness.html.en for the guidelines here. > Also, has there been any talk about making UIs accountable for real- > time responsiveness (low-latency interactivity)? Is there anything > in the overall system that could require a UI to respond in 10 > seconds, 1 second, etc? > Not quite sure what you're getting at here-- could you give an example? Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:calum.benson@sun.com GNOME Desktop Team http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems From Calum.Benson@Sun.COM Thu Nov 29 23:22:22 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85E147500D3; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:22:22 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.258 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.258 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=0.340, BAYES_00=-2.599, L_P0F_Unix=-1, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Solaris 10 (beta), (distance 23, link: ethernet/modem), [192.18.6.24] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FWB6Wq1JN6QV; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:22:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from gmp-eb-mail-2.sun.com (gmp-eb-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.6.24]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26189750088; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:21:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from fe-emea-09.sun.com (gmp-eb-lb-2-fe1.eu.sun.com [192.18.6.10]) by gmp-eb-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id lATNLgxT027500; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:21:42 GMT Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-emea-09.sun.com by fe-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JSA00C01JEW9P00@fe-emea-09.sun.com> (original mail from Calum.Benson@Sun.COM); Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:21:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([213.202.137.203]) by fe-emea-09.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JSA00G4LJK5RB80@fe-emea-09.sun.com>; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:21:42 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:21:38 +0000 From: Calum Benson In-reply-to: <1196292199.16075.39.camel@kzerza.site> Sender: Calum.Benson@Sun.COM To: Hans Petter Jansson Message-id: <0AF1880F-D187-4DAF-884F-D98288B02536@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1196292199.16075.39.camel@kzerza.site> Cc: Usability , gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] Discoverable off-screen window dragging X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:22:22 -0000 Cc'ing gnome-accessibility-list too... On 28 Nov 2007, at 23:23, Hans Petter Jansson wrote: > I've been discussing accessibility/usability with visually impaired > users lately, and one thing that came up, and that I believe to be > low-hanging fruit, is the problem of windows being bigger than the > screen in one or both dimensions. > > This happens frequently for visually impaired users, since they > generally have very large fonts. > > I was told by one user that the way he worked around this was by going > to the control panel, choosing a smaller font temporarily, moving the > window, then setting the big font again. Of course, he was very > happy to > hear about the alt+drag shortcut. > > Which made me wonder if there's a more discoverable way of moving > windows around when they're too big/partially off-screen. > > One idea that came up was automatically adding scrollbars to the > windows, but I don't see how that could work reliably, and it would > clutter the screen and be error-prone/hard to do technically. > > A better idea might be something like the following logic in the > window > manager: > > IF window is focused AND > pointer is pushing against the edge of the screen AND > window has area off that edge of the screen AND > user is not dragging > THEN > move the window in the opposite direction of the edge being pushed > > So e.g. if you have a focused window which is partially off the > right-hand side of the screen, and you push your pointer against that > side, bumping into the edge, the window will move to the left until > you > can see its right-edge frame. The rate of movement would be equal > to the > number of pixels the pointer "wants" to move off-screen at each > increment. Only the focused window would be affected. > > I think this would be a lot more discoverable and useful for > everyone - > not just visually impaired users - and it looks like all the required > information is available to the window manager, so it shouldn't be > terribly hard to implement. > > Thoughts? > > -- > Hans Petter > > _______________________________________________ > Usability mailing list > Usability@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:calum.benson@sun.com GNOME Desktop Team http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems From William.Walker@Sun.COM Thu Nov 29 23:49:16 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E064750105; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:49:16 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.598 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, L_P0F_Unix=-1, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Solaris 9, (distance 9, link: ethernet/modem), [192.18.98.43] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6BRprFYx2Npc; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:49:09 +0000 (GMT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C5287500D3; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:48:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from fe-amer-09.sun.com ([192.18.109.79]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id lATNmdPx023586; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:48:39 GMT Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JSA00A01KGZZ900@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from William.Walker@Sun.COM); Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:48:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.101] ([66.189.39.50]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JSA00GR3KT28J80@mail-amer.sun.com>; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:48:39 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:47:41 -0500 From: Willie Walker In-reply-to: <0AF1880F-D187-4DAF-884F-D98288B02536@sun.com> Sender: William.Walker@Sun.COM To: Calum Benson Message-id: <474F4F9D.1040602@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1196292199.16075.39.camel@kzerza.site> <0AF1880F-D187-4DAF-884F-D98288B02536@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071009) Cc: Usability , gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, Hans Petter Jansson Subject: Re: [Usability] Discoverable off-screen window dragging X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:49:16 -0000 When I was working on X Windows accessibility at Digital in the early 1990's, I modified the popular window manager at the time (mwm?) to have an option to automatically put up scrollbars if the window was too large for the display. It seemed to work well, though I cannot remember if/how the user was able to adjust the scrollbars using keyboard traversal. The proposed mouse movement thing seems like a great idea that would work well for mouse users. I've seen very similar behavior when an X Window server is too large for the physical display. The behavior is not at all unexpected, but instead feels very natural. On a related note, enhancing metacity's window movement behavior from the keyboard would be really nice. If you press Alt+F7 to move a window, you can move it all over the screen using the arrow keys. But, if you press Alt+Space and select Move that way, you cannot push the window vertically off the screen -- the window gets stuck on the title bar. Will Calum Benson wrote: > Cc'ing gnome-accessibility-list too... > > > On 28 Nov 2007, at 23:23, Hans Petter Jansson wrote: > >> I've been discussing accessibility/usability with visually impaired >> users lately, and one thing that came up, and that I believe to be >> low-hanging fruit, is the problem of windows being bigger than the >> screen in one or both dimensions. >> >> This happens frequently for visually impaired users, since they >> generally have very large fonts. >> >> I was told by one user that the way he worked around this was by going >> to the control panel, choosing a smaller font temporarily, moving the >> window, then setting the big font again. Of course, he was very >> happy to >> hear about the alt+drag shortcut. >> >> Which made me wonder if there's a more discoverable way of moving >> windows around when they're too big/partially off-screen. >> >> One idea that came up was automatically adding scrollbars to the >> windows, but I don't see how that could work reliably, and it would >> clutter the screen and be error-prone/hard to do technically. >> >> A better idea might be something like the following logic in the >> window >> manager: >> >> IF window is focused AND >> pointer is pushing against the edge of the screen AND >> window has area off that edge of the screen AND >> user is not dragging >> THEN >> move the window in the opposite direction of the edge being pushed >> >> So e.g. if you have a focused window which is partially off the >> right-hand side of the screen, and you push your pointer against that >> side, bumping into the edge, the window will move to the left until >> you >> can see its right-edge frame. The rate of movement would be equal >> to the >> number of pixels the pointer "wants" to move off-screen at each >> increment. Only the focused window would be affected. >> >> I think this would be a lot more discoverable and useful for >> everyone - >> not just visually impaired users - and it looks like all the required >> information is available to the window manager, so it shouldn't be >> terribly hard to implement. >> >> Thoughts? >> >> -- >> Hans Petter >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Usability mailing list >> Usability@gnome.org >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability > From mattnuzum@gmail.com Fri Nov 30 00:14:40 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D404D750176 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 00:14:40 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.224 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.224 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_30_40=0.374, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) (firewall!) (up: 6201 hrs), (distance 16, link: (Google 2)), [209.85.134.190] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0A6MMu-tG4ze for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 00:14:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mu-out-0910.google.com (mu-out-0910.google.com [209.85.134.190]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C64B750133 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 00:14:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: by mu-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id w8so2447182mue for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:14:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.82.183.19 with SMTP id g19mr5210820buf.1196381643955; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:14:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.82.170.9 with HTTP; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:14:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:14:03 -0600 From: "Matthew Nuzum" Sender: mattnuzum@gmail.com To: "Willie Walker" In-Reply-To: <474F4F9D.1040602@sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_17795_2196195.1196381643876" References: <1196292199.16075.39.camel@kzerza.site> <0AF1880F-D187-4DAF-884F-D98288B02536@sun.com> <474F4F9D.1040602@sun.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 65507679df0fbdb2 Cc: Usability , gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, Calum Benson , Hans Petter Jansson Subject: Re: [Usability] Discoverable off-screen window dragging X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 00:14:41 -0000 ------=_Part_17795_2196195.1196381643876 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Nov 29, 2007 5:47 PM, Willie Walker wrote: > On a related note, enhancing metacity's window movement behavior from > the keyboard would be really nice. If you press Alt+F7 to move a > window, you can move it all over the screen using the arrow keys. But, > if you press Alt+Space and select Move that way, you cannot push the > window vertically off the screen -- the window gets stuck on the title > bar. > Also interestingly, when you view the menu with alt+space the Move option doesn't list the Alt+F7 keyboard shortcut. That hinders discoverability a bit. Thanks for the tip, I've wished for this before. -- Matthew Nuzum newz2000 on freenode ------=_Part_17795_2196195.1196381643876 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Nov 29, 2007 5:47 PM, Willie Walker <William.Walker@sun.com> wrote:
On a related note, enhancing metacity's window movement behavior from
the keyboard would be really nice. If you press Alt+F7 to move a
window, you can move it all over the screen using the arrow keys. But,
if you press Alt+Space and select Move that way, you cannot push the
window vertically off the screen -- the window gets stuck on the title bar.

Also interestingly, when you view the menu with alt+space the Move option doesn't list the Alt+F7 keyboard shortcut. That hinders discoverability a bit. Thanks for the tip, I've wished for this before.

--
Matthew Nuzum
newz2000 on freenode ------=_Part_17795_2196195.1196381643876-- From Martin_Harris@pmc-sierra.com Thu Nov 29 23:29:08 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE5947500AC for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:29:08 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.4-2.6 (up: 889 hrs), (distance 18, link: ethernet/modem), [216.241.226.184] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yk41sK6EeQ3R for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:29:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pmxedge2.pmc-sierra.bc.ca (pmc216-241-226-184.pmc-sierra.bc.ca [216.241.226.184]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D45297500D3 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:28:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from bby1exg02.pmc_nt.nt.pmc-sierra.bc.ca (BBY1EXG02.pmc-sierra.bc.ca [216.241.231.167]) by pmxedge2.pmc-sierra.bc.ca (8.13.4/8.12.7) with ESMTP id lATNSVSC006868; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:28:31 -0800 Received: from sjc1exm07.pmc_nt.nt.pmc-sierra.bc.ca ([209.68.180.68]) by bby1exg02.pmc_nt.nt.pmc-sierra.bc.ca with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:28:30 -0800 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:28:29 -0800 Message-ID: <0D9C015985B074418F8B783E85BA2AC40125660A@sjc1exm07.pmc_nt.nt.pmc-sierra.bc.ca> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Usability] FW: UI Responsiveness Thread-Index: Acgy3mJN2njmf3yMQ1GDdcbab/NHqAAABPog References: <0D9C015985B074418F8B783E85BA2AC4012565FC@sjc1exm07.pmc_nt.nt.pmc-sierra.bc.ca> From: "Martin Harris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Nov 2007 23:28:30.0915 (UTC) FILETIME=[8D434130:01C832DF] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 01:57:16 +0000 Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] FW: UI Responsiveness X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:29:09 -0000 Thanks for the reply. My experience is in embedded systems where you have more control of event timing in general. For general-purpose computing, there are no time constraints placed on applications for how long they will take to respond to user interactions. A button click can take 10 ms or 10 min. The user does not control that and the GUI system and kernel do not enforce any timing constraints. Perhaps I don't know your environment well enough to even pose the question. But I am wondering if any thought has been given to requiring apps and environments to guarantee response times. An example constraint would be application start up time. When a user starts an application, the application must present the main window within 3 seconds. Thanks, Martin =20 -----Original Message----- From: Calum.Benson@Sun.COM [mailto:Calum.Benson@Sun.COM]=20 Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 3:20 PM To: Martin Harris Cc: usability@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Usability] FW: UI Responsiveness On 29 Nov 2007, at 22:58, Martin Harris wrote: > Are there any time constraints on HIG in terms of responsiveness? > Yes, see http://library.gnome.org/devel/hig-book/stable/feedback-=20 responsiveness.html.en for the guidelines here. > Also, has there been any talk about making UIs accountable for real-=20 > time responsiveness (low-latency interactivity)? Is there anything =20 > in the overall system that could require a UI to respond in 10 =20 > seconds, 1 second, etc? > Not quite sure what you're getting at here-- could you give an example? Cheeri, Calum. --=20 CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:calum.benson@sun.com GNOME Desktop Team http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems From Peter.Korn@Sun.COM Thu Nov 29 23:42:24 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0DBD7500FE; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:42:24 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.597 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.597 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, L_P0F_Unix=-1, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Solaris 10 (beta), (distance 15, link: ethernet/modem), [192.18.43.133] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NPi24qcfZOqu; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:42:19 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (sca-es-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.43.133]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB4697500AF; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:41:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id lATNfnnY007943; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:41:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JSA00901KBW8S00@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from Peter.Korn@Sun.COM); Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:41:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.48.38] ([195.207.156.213]) by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JSA00N42KHJ3C10@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:41:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:41:39 -0800 From: Peter Korn In-reply-to: <0AF1880F-D187-4DAF-884F-D98288B02536@sun.com> Sender: Peter.Korn@Sun.COM To: Calum Benson Message-id: <474F4E33.3030508@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_ROErTb5xAisOjiEdkn9jXA)" References: <1196292199.16075.39.camel@kzerza.site> <0AF1880F-D187-4DAF-884F-D98288B02536@sun.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 01:57:16 +0000 Cc: Usability , gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, Hans Petter Jansson Subject: Re: [Usability] Discoverable off-screen window dragging X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:42:25 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_ROErTb5xAisOjiEdkn9jXA) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi Calum, Hans Petter, This sounds interesting. Any way to see and play with a prototype (and to get user feedback on it)? I also wonder whether and to what extent Compiz might play a role here (though perhaps we don't want to make a dependency on that just yet)... Regards, Peter > Cc'ing gnome-accessibility-list too... > > > On 28 Nov 2007, at 23:23, Hans Petter Jansson wrote: > > >> I've been discussing accessibility/usability with visually impaired >> users lately, and one thing that came up, and that I believe to be >> low-hanging fruit, is the problem of windows being bigger than the >> screen in one or both dimensions. >> >> This happens frequently for visually impaired users, since they >> generally have very large fonts. >> >> I was told by one user that the way he worked around this was by going >> to the control panel, choosing a smaller font temporarily, moving the >> window, then setting the big font again. Of course, he was very >> happy to >> hear about the alt+drag shortcut. >> >> Which made me wonder if there's a more discoverable way of moving >> windows around when they're too big/partially off-screen. >> >> One idea that came up was automatically adding scrollbars to the >> windows, but I don't see how that could work reliably, and it would >> clutter the screen and be error-prone/hard to do technically. >> >> A better idea might be something like the following logic in the >> window >> manager: >> >> IF window is focused AND >> pointer is pushing against the edge of the screen AND >> window has area off that edge of the screen AND >> user is not dragging >> THEN >> move the window in the opposite direction of the edge being pushed >> >> So e.g. if you have a focused window which is partially off the >> right-hand side of the screen, and you push your pointer against that >> side, bumping into the edge, the window will move to the left until >> you >> can see its right-edge frame. The rate of movement would be equal >> to the >> number of pixels the pointer "wants" to move off-screen at each >> increment. Only the focused window would be affected. >> >> I think this would be a lot more discoverable and useful for >> everyone - >> not just visually impaired users - and it looks like all the required >> information is available to the window manager, so it shouldn't be >> terribly hard to implement. >> >> Thoughts? >> >> -- >> Hans Petter >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Usability mailing list >> Usability@gnome.org >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability >> > > --Boundary_(ID_ROErTb5xAisOjiEdkn9jXA) Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi Calum, Hans Petter,

This sounds interesting. Any way to see and play with a prototype (and to get user feedback on it)? I also wonder whether and to what extent Compiz might play a role here (though perhaps we don't want to make a dependency on that just yet)...

Regards,

Peter

Cc'ing gnome-accessibility-list too... On 28 Nov 2007, at 23:23, Hans Petter Jansson wrote:

I've been discussing accessibility/usability with visually impaired users lately, and one thing that came up, and that I believe to be low-hanging fruit, is the problem of windows being bigger than the screen in one or both dimensions. This happens frequently for visually impaired users, since they generally have very large fonts. I was told by one user that the way he worked around this was by going to the control panel, choosing a smaller font temporarily, moving the window, then setting the big font again. Of course, he was very happy to hear about the alt+drag shortcut. Which made me wonder if there's a more discoverable way of moving windows around when they're too big/partially off-screen. One idea that came up was automatically adding scrollbars to the windows, but I don't see how that could work reliably, and it would clutter the screen and be error-prone/hard to do technically. A better idea might be something like the following logic in the window manager: IF window is focused AND pointer is pushing against the edge of the screen AND window has area off that edge of the screen AND user is not dragging THEN move the window in the opposite direction of the edge being pushed So e.g. if you have a focused window which is partially off the right-hand side of the screen, and you push your pointer against that side, bumping into the edge, the window will move to the left until you can see its right-edge frame. The rate of movement would be equal to the number of pixels the pointer "wants" to move off-screen at each increment. Only the focused window would be affected. I think this would be a lot more discoverable and useful for everyone - not just visually impaired users - and it looks like all the required information is available to the window manager, so it shouldn't be terribly hard to implement. Thoughts? -- Hans Petter _______________________________________________ Usability mailing list Usability@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability

--Boundary_(ID_ROErTb5xAisOjiEdkn9jXA)-- From newren@gmail.com Fri Nov 30 03:16:59 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4FBD7500AC for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 03:16:59 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XWm+0lbT9OwQ for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 03:16:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com (wa-out-1112.google.com [209.85.146.182]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 005AD75011C for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 03:00:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id j4so2527179wah for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:50:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.115.107.1 with SMTP id j1mr724469wam.1196390644484; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:44:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.210.13 with HTTP; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:44:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <51419b2c0711291844x74253d65h9fe4a07bc6d0e06c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:44:04 -0700 From: "Elijah Newren" To: "Matthew Nuzum" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1196292199.16075.39.camel@kzerza.site> <0AF1880F-D187-4DAF-884F-D98288B02536@sun.com> <474F4F9D.1040602@sun.com> Cc: Willie Walker , Usability , Calum Benson , gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, Hans Petter Jansson Subject: Re: [Usability] Discoverable off-screen window dragging X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 03:17:00 -0000 On Nov 29, 2007 5:14 PM, Matthew Nuzum wrote: > Also interestingly, when you view the menu with alt+space the Move option > doesn't list the Alt+F7 keyboard shortcut. That hinders discoverability a > bit. Thanks for the tip, I've wished for this before. Um, it does here. What window manager and version are you using? From alleykat@gmail.com Fri Nov 30 08:14:04 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 467FA750127 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:14:04 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) (firewall!) (up: 8207 hrs), (distance 17, link: (Google 2)), [64.233.182.189] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UZslbSP5Ta80 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:13:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.189]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A06117501B9 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:13:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id f5so1818727nfh for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 00:13:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.78.157.19 with SMTP id f19mr1787154hue.1196395742077; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:09:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.78.132.8 with HTTP; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:09:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:09:02 -0600 From: "Travis Watkins" Sender: alleykat@gmail.com To: "Elijah Newren" In-Reply-To: <51419b2c0711291844x74253d65h9fe4a07bc6d0e06c@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1196292199.16075.39.camel@kzerza.site> <0AF1880F-D187-4DAF-884F-D98288B02536@sun.com> <474F4F9D.1040602@sun.com> <51419b2c0711291844x74253d65h9fe4a07bc6d0e06c@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 732fbdbe021f11e7 Cc: Willie Walker , Hans Petter Jansson , Usability , gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, Calum Benson Subject: Re: [Usability] Discoverable off-screen window dragging X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:14:04 -0000 On Nov 29, 2007 8:44 PM, Elijah Newren wrote: > On Nov 29, 2007 5:14 PM, Matthew Nuzum wrote: > > Also interestingly, when you view the menu with alt+space the Move option > > doesn't list the Alt+F7 keyboard shortcut. That hinders discoverability a > > bit. Thanks for the tip, I've wished for this before. > > Um, it does here. What window manager and version are you using? > They don't show up when using Compiz. Which is odd, because that menu comes from libmetacity/wnck (can't remember which right now). -- Travis Watkins http://www.realistanew.com From newren@gmail.com Fri Nov 30 08:28:22 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BD7C750126 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:28:22 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) (firewall!) (up: 3487 hrs), (distance 12, link: (Google 2)), [209.85.146.181] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x7UvhOPVAUTS for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:28:19 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com (wa-out-1112.google.com [209.85.146.181]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7916E750125 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:26:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id j4so2613805wah for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 00:26:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.134.1 with SMTP id h1mr718227wad.1196390574116; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:42:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.210.13 with HTTP; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:42:53 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <51419b2c0711291842r2359e404ra431b56451581b3b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:42:53 -0700 From: "Elijah Newren" To: "Willie Walker" In-Reply-To: <474F4F9D.1040602@sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1196292199.16075.39.camel@kzerza.site> <0AF1880F-D187-4DAF-884F-D98288B02536@sun.com> <474F4F9D.1040602@sun.com> Cc: Usability , gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, Calum Benson , Hans Petter Jansson Subject: Re: [Usability] Discoverable off-screen window dragging X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:28:22 -0000 On Nov 29, 2007 4:47 PM, Willie Walker wrote: > On a related note, enhancing metacity's window movement behavior from > the keyboard would be really nice. If you press Alt+F7 to move a > window, you can move it all over the screen using the arrow keys. But, > if you press Alt+Space and select Move that way, you cannot push the > window vertically off the screen -- the window gets stuck on the title bar. Recoverability issue combined with the fact that the code doesn't differentiate how you opened that menu. E.g. if you opened the window menu by clicking on the button in the upper left corner of the window, allowing movement of the titlebar off the screen would be really bad. Feel free to file a bug, the issue is basically just in tracking how the window menu was opened. Elijah From mattnuzum@gmail.com Fri Nov 30 08:42:19 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C73EB7500E2 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:42:18 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.224 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.224 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_30_40=0.374, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) (firewall!) (up: 6285 hrs), (distance 19, link: (Google 2)), [209.85.134.187] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qDlf2jVqMd8H for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:42:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mu-out-0910.google.com (mu-out-0910.google.com [209.85.134.187]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6166F7500AC for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:41:46 +0000 (GMT) Received: by mu-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id w8so2574737mue for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 00:41:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.82.118.2 with SMTP id q2mr6613751buc.1196391645322; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:00:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.82.170.9 with HTTP; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:00:40 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 21:00:40 -0600 From: "Matthew Nuzum" Sender: mattnuzum@gmail.com To: "Elijah Newren" In-Reply-To: <51419b2c0711291844x74253d65h9fe4a07bc6d0e06c@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_18415_23431751.1196391645282" References: <1196292199.16075.39.camel@kzerza.site> <0AF1880F-D187-4DAF-884F-D98288B02536@sun.com> <474F4F9D.1040602@sun.com> <51419b2c0711291844x74253d65h9fe4a07bc6d0e06c@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: ea2f6301c1a01d56 Cc: Willie Walker , Usability , Calum Benson , gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, Hans Petter Jansson Subject: Re: [Usability] Discoverable off-screen window dragging X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:42:19 -0000 ------=_Part_18415_23431751.1196391645282 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Nov 29, 2007 8:44 PM, Elijah Newren wrote: > On Nov 29, 2007 5:14 PM, Matthew Nuzum wrote: > > Also interestingly, when you view the menu with alt+space the Move > option > > doesn't list the Alt+F7 keyboard shortcut. That hinders discoverability > a > > bit. Thanks for the tip, I've wished for this before. > > Um, it does here. What window manager and version are you using? > 2.2.20 I think. I guess I'm not confident on how to tell what window manager I'm using. Metacity or compiz fusion, since I've not done anything to change that. It's Ubuntu 7.10 with effects enabled. http://code.bearfruit.org/~matt/altspace.png If this is a bug I'm happy to file it. -- Matthew Nuzum newz2000 on freenode ------=_Part_18415_23431751.1196391645282 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Nov 29, 2007 8:44 PM, Elijah Newren <newren@gmail.com> wrote:

On Nov 29, 2007 5:14 PM, Matthew Nuzum <newz@bearfruit.org> wrote:
> Also interestingly, when you view the menu with alt+space the Move option
> doesn't list the Alt+F7 keyboard shortcut. That hinders discoverability a
> bit. Thanks for the tip, I've wished for this before.

Um, it does here. What window manager and version are you using?

2.2.20 I think. I guess I'm not confident on how to tell what window manager I'm using. Metacity or compiz fusion, since I've not done anything to change that. It's Ubuntu 7.10 with effects enabled.

http://code.bearfruit.org/~matt/altspace.png

If this is a bug I'm happy to file it.

--
Matthew Nuzum
newz2000 on freenode ------=_Part_18415_23431751.1196391645282-- From snelting@geuzen.org Fri Nov 30 08:50:29 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D84D7500E2 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:50:29 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.4-2.6 (up: 3143 hrs), (distance 20, link: ethernet/modem), [212.95.66.33] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nyanOW15B-Bw for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:50:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp-out.coditel.net (smtp-out.coditel.net [212.95.66.33]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F28B750088 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:49:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp.coditel.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-out.coditel.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 442EEEB414 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:49:52 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.2.2] (cable-213.214.51.95.coditel.net [213.214.51.95]) by smtp.coditel.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B3842FD3F for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:49:50 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <474FCEAE.1060109@geuzen.org> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:49:50 +0100 From: Femke Snelting User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.14pre (X11/20071023) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Usability@gnome.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-AV-Checked: clean on smtp.coditel.net Subject: [Usability] FLOSS usability at Jonctions/Verbindingen 10 X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: snelting@geuzen.org List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:50:29 -0000 Dear list, At the Jonctions/Verbindingen Festival this weekend, one of the themes=20 will be F/LOSS usability so you might be interested ;-) For those who can not join us in Brussels, all lectures and discussions=20 will be broadcast live; also you can respond / ask questions via chat. Hope to see you around, Femke ****************************************************** ** VERBINDINGEN / JONCTIONS 10 ** Interdisciplinary & multimedia festival ****************************************************** ** Reminder: Programme Saturday 01/12 & Sunday 02/12 ** Where: La Bellone, Vlaamsesteenweg 46 rue de Flandre, 1000 Brussels ** Info: http://www.constantvzw.com/vj10 ** Live stream and chat: http://www.constantvzw.com/vj10/live ****************************************************** *Saturday 01/12 11:00 Femke Snelting - Wederkerige bewegingen: introduction Lecture 12:00 Gorkem Cetin - Open source software usability Lecture 14:00 Sabine Prokhoris & Simon Hecquet - Fabriques de la Danse Lecture 15:00 Micha=EBl Terry and other tele-present guests - Ingimp: Instrumented Gestures Conversation 17:00 Adrian Mackenzie =96 From centres of calculation to centres of envelopmen= t: intensive movement in digital signal processing Lecture 19:00 In=E8s Rabad=E1n - La r=E9p=E9tition d=92un geste ne rend-elle pas forc=E9= ment fou ? Introduction to Modern Times 20:00 Charlie Chaplin - Modern Times Screening *** *Sunday 02/12 10:00 =96 13:00 Alice Chauchat & Fr=E9d=E9ric Gies - Atelier Praticable Workshop 14:00 Simon Yuill - The problems of notation will be solved by the masses Lecture 15:00 S=E9verine Dusollier, Val=E9rie Laure Benabou - Du droit d=92auteur sur l= es mouvements Lecture 16:00 Alice Chauchat & Fr=E9d=E9ric Gies - Pr=E9sentation du collectif Praticab= le 16:30 Sadie Plant =96 A situated reporter Lecture 18:00 Fr=E9d=E9ric Gies - Dance (Practicable) Performance 21:00 Pierre Berthet =96 Concert de divers objets prolong=E9s ****************************************************** Installations & Video library accessible all week-end Michel Cleempoel- Destination port Leiff Elgren & CM Von Hausswolff - The Embassy of Elgaland Vargaland Dominique Goblet, CM Von Hausswolff, Guy-Marc Hinant - Ghost machinery Pierre Berthet - Haut-parleurs prolong=E9s & Video Library (dressed by De Geuzen) With o.a.: Ximena Cuevas, Ursula Biemann, Xavier Leroy, Vicky Funari & Sergio De La Torre, Miranda July, Anne Quirynen, Martha Rosler, Anke Sch=E4fer, Jeanne van Heeswijk & Marten Winters.. ****************************************************** ** C O N S T A N T ** Fortstraat 5 ** 1060 St. Gilles, Brussels ** T / F: +32 (0)2 5392467 ** info@constantvzw.com ** ** Constant is supported by ** the Flemish Authorities ** & the Vlaamse GemeenschapsCommissie ****************************************************** From newren@gmail.com Fri Nov 30 08:51:44 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F4527500AC for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:51:44 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) (firewall!) (up: 3491 hrs), (distance 12, link: (Google 2)), [209.85.146.182] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pZle6sUH0j8r for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:51:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com (wa-out-1112.google.com [209.85.146.182]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74ABF750088 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:51:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id j4so2620481wah for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 00:51:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.197.1 with SMTP id u1mr253987waf.1196392304110; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:11:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.210.13 with HTTP; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:11:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <51419b2c0711291911l795b10abgb6813152294f2486@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:11:44 -0700 From: "Elijah Newren" To: "Matthew Nuzum" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1196292199.16075.39.camel@kzerza.site> <0AF1880F-D187-4DAF-884F-D98288B02536@sun.com> <474F4F9D.1040602@sun.com> <51419b2c0711291844x74253d65h9fe4a07bc6d0e06c@mail.gmail.com> Cc: Willie Walker , Usability , Calum Benson , gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, Hans Petter Jansson Subject: Re: [Usability] Discoverable off-screen window dragging X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:51:44 -0000 On Nov 29, 2007 8:00 PM, Matthew Nuzum wrote: > 2.2.20 I think. I guess I'm not confident on how to tell what window manager > I'm using. Metacity or compiz fusion, since I've not done anything to change > that. It's Ubuntu 7.10 with effects enabled. You can find out some details about which window manager you happen to be running at the moment by running the two commands xprop -root | grep CHECK xprop -id $(xprop -root | grep CHECK | sed -e s#.*0x#0x#) in a terminal. Should work anywhere too, if you WM is EWMH compliant. There's also various rpm, dpkg, ps, etc. commands you could run, assuming the window manager is running on the local machine. However "with effects enabled" almost certainly means you're using compiz. You could file a bug with them. Elijah From mpt@myrealbox.com Fri Nov 30 11:52:07 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF6E47500C1 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 11:52:06 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) (up: 11766 hrs), (distance 16, link: ethernet/modem), [216.118.97.161] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P6v14j36KrIJ for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 11:52:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from leucothea.site5.com (leucothea.site5.com [216.118.97.161]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28835750094 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 11:51:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from 222-152-132-193.jetstream.xtra.co.nz ([222.152.132.193] helo=[10.1.1.2]) by leucothea.site5.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1Iy4Pm-0006MS-Gj; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 06:52:14 -0500 In-Reply-To: <1196292199.16075.39.camel@kzerza.site> References: <1196292199.16075.39.camel@kzerza.site> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) X-Gpgmail-State: !signed Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <24b3cee726d64ccaea573abd6bfa6dda@myrealbox.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Matthew Paul Thomas Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 00:51:09 +1300 To: Usability X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.624) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - leucothea.site5.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnome.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - myrealbox.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Cc: David Reveman , Thomas Thurman Subject: Re: [Usability] Discoverable off-screen window dragging X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 11:52:07 -0000 On Nov 29, 2007, at 12:23 PM, Hans Petter Jansson wrote: > ... > Which made me wonder if there's a more discoverable way of moving > windows around when they're too big/partially off-screen. > ... Sure there is. Make a window movable by dragging not just the title bar, but *any* part of it that doesn't contain something else clickable. Cheers -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ From William.Walker@Sun.COM Fri Nov 30 12:37:29 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAB567500AC; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:37:29 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.598 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, L_P0F_Unix=-1, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Solaris 9, (distance 9, link: ethernet/modem), [192.18.98.43] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ok5u-O8wSUZ8; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:37:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29EB575011C; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:36:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from fe-amer-10.sun.com ([192.18.109.80]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id lAUCar3f019628; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:36:53 GMT Received: from conversion-daemon.mail-amer.sun.com by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0JSB00601KD05D00@mail-amer.sun.com> (original mail from William.Walker@Sun.COM); Fri, 30 Nov 2007 05:36:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from [192.168.1.101] ([66.189.39.50]) by mail-amer.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0JSB00KB4KDF0UD0@mail-amer.sun.com>; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 05:36:53 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 07:35:53 -0500 From: Willie Walker In-reply-to: <51419b2c0711291842r2359e404ra431b56451581b3b@mail.gmail.com> Sender: William.Walker@Sun.COM To: Elijah Newren Message-id: <475003A9.2050103@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1196292199.16075.39.camel@kzerza.site> <0AF1880F-D187-4DAF-884F-D98288B02536@sun.com> <474F4F9D.1040602@sun.com> <51419b2c0711291842r2359e404ra431b56451581b3b@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071009) Cc: Usability , Calum Benson , gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, Hans Petter Jansson Subject: Re: [Usability] Discoverable off-screen window dragging X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:37:30 -0000 Elijah Newren wrote: > On Nov 29, 2007 4:47 PM, Willie Walker wrote: >> On a related note, enhancing metacity's window movement behavior from >> the keyboard would be really nice. If you press Alt+F7 to move a >> window, you can move it all over the screen using the arrow keys. But, >> if you press Alt+Space and select Move that way, you cannot push the >> window vertically off the screen -- the window gets stuck on the title bar. > > Recoverability issue combined with the fact that the code doesn't > differentiate how you opened that menu. E.g. if you opened the window > menu by clicking on the button in the upper left corner of the window, > allowing movement of the titlebar off the screen would be really bad. > > Feel free to file a bug, the issue is basically just in tracking how > the window menu was opened. Ahh...understood. It just seemed quirky to me, but I never really thought it was bad enough to be called a true bug. If this is done by design, then I'm fine with it, especially since Alt+F7 gives me the behavior I need. Thanks! Will From mpt@myrealbox.com Fri Nov 30 12:57:07 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BAEA750088 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:57:07 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) (up: 11777 hrs), (distance 16, link: ethernet/modem), [216.118.97.161] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AIPjOPesyZXX for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:57:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: from leucothea.site5.com (leucothea.site5.com [216.118.97.161]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35986750077 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:56:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from 222-152-132-193.jetstream.xtra.co.nz ([222.152.132.193] helo=[10.1.1.2]) by leucothea.site5.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1Iy5Qd-0006Pc-3q; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 07:57:11 -0500 In-Reply-To: References: <0D9C015985B074418F8B783E85BA2AC4012565FC@sjc1exm07.pmc_nt.nt.pmc-sierra.bc.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) X-Gpgmail-State: !signed Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Matthew Paul Thomas Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 01:56:18 +1300 To: Usability Mailing List X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.624) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - leucothea.site5.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnome.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - myrealbox.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Subject: Re: [Usability] FW: UI Responsiveness X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:57:07 -0000 On Nov 30, 2007, at 12:19 PM, Calum Benson wrote: > > On 29 Nov 2007, at 22:58, Martin Harris wrote: > ... >> Also, has there been any talk about making UIs accountable for real- >> time responsiveness (low-latency interactivity)? Is there anything >> in the overall system that could require a UI to respond in 10 >> seconds, 1 second, etc? > > Not quite sure what you're getting at here-- could you give an example? > ... One example is that Mac OS X's "spinning beachball of death" cursor is not (usually) set by the application. It is set by the underlying toolkit, if the application has not examined its event queue in the past ~2 seconds. That makes UIs "accountable" in the sense that the busy cursor is a sign of a badly-written application, and users complain accordingly. Cheers -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ From mpt@myrealbox.com Fri Nov 30 13:03:50 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EBE27500DE for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 13:03:50 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) (up: 11777 hrs), (distance 16, link: ethernet/modem), [216.118.97.161] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nc9UjqXNOs2K for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 13:03:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from leucothea.site5.com (leucothea.site5.com [216.118.97.161]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51824750094 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 13:03:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from 222-152-132-193.jetstream.xtra.co.nz ([222.152.132.193] helo=[10.1.1.2]) by leucothea.site5.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1Iy5XD-0007Mq-94; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:03:59 -0500 In-Reply-To: References: <0D9C015985B074418F8B783E85BA2AC4012565FC@sjc1exm07.pmc_nt.nt.pmc-sierra.bc.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) X-Gpgmail-State: !signed Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <34beeac77405ba6200807485d1b68925@myrealbox.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Matthew Paul Thomas Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 02:03:08 +1300 To: Usability Mailing List X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.624) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - leucothea.site5.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnome.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - myrealbox.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Subject: Re: [Usability] FW: UI Responsiveness X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 13:03:50 -0000 On Dec 1, 2007, at 1:56 AM, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > ... >> On 29 Nov 2007, at 22:58, Martin Harris wrote: >> ... >>> Also, has there been any talk about making UIs accountable for real- >>> time responsiveness (low-latency interactivity)? Is there anything >>> in the overall system that could require a UI to respond in 10 >>> seconds, 1 second, etc? > ... > One example is that Mac OS X's "spinning beachball of death" cursor > is not (usually) > set by the application. It is set by the underlying toolkit, if the > application has not examined its event queue in the past ~2 seconds. > That makes UIs "accountable" in the sense that the busy cursor is a > sign of a badly-written application, and users complain accordingly. > ... Similarly in Ubuntu, with "Visual Effects" turned on, a window goes grey if it has stopped responding for a second or two. Once it resumes responding, its colors return. Cheers -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ From newren@gmail.com Fri Nov 30 14:06:23 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24EED750121 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:06:23 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) (firewall!) (up: 3543 hrs), (distance 12, link: (Google 2)), [209.85.146.183] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S8PnTtsX9ffg for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:06:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com (wa-out-1112.google.com [209.85.146.183]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A960B75011D for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:05:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id j4so2716233wah for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 06:05:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.115.46.9 with SMTP id y9mr33492waj.1196431549163; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 06:05:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.210.13 with HTTP; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 06:05:49 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <51419b2c0711300605i2e420dc9p6339296b8b0622a8@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 07:05:49 -0700 From: "Elijah Newren" To: "Matthew Paul Thomas" In-Reply-To: <24b3cee726d64ccaea573abd6bfa6dda@myrealbox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1196292199.16075.39.camel@kzerza.site> <24b3cee726d64ccaea573abd6bfa6dda@myrealbox.com> Cc: David Reveman , Usability , Thomas Thurman Subject: Re: [Usability] Discoverable off-screen window dragging X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:06:23 -0000 On Nov 30, 2007 4:51 AM, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > On Nov 29, 2007, at 12:23 PM, Hans Petter Jansson wrote: > > ... > > Which made me wonder if there's a more discoverable way of moving > > windows around when they're too big/partially off-screen. > > ... > > Sure there is. Make a window movable by dragging not just the title > bar, but *any* part of it that doesn't contain something else > clickable. Unfortunately, the WM currently has no way of determining whether a given pixel position corresponds to something clickable in a window. That happens to be part of the nasty drag and drop problem[1]. Elijah [1] Raise on button release instead of button click unless the button press started a drag and drop operation. http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=152952 From newren@gmail.com Fri Nov 30 14:11:23 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC8BA750088 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:11:23 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.533 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.533 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[AWL=-0.011, BAYES_00=-2.599, TW_BW=0.077] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) (firewall!) (up: 3149 hrs), (distance 12, link: (Google 2)), [64.233.166.179] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VRBRNEoXff9J for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:11:21 +0000 (GMT) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.179]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4244750094 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:10:53 +0000 (GMT) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id a25so4801442pyi for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 06:10:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.123.1 with SMTP id v1mr410425wac.1196431851455; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 06:10:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.210.13 with HTTP; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 06:10:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <51419b2c0711300610x207f9b94p104647b3fe0265b9@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 07:10:51 -0700 From: "Elijah Newren" To: "Travis Watkins" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1196292199.16075.39.camel@kzerza.site> <0AF1880F-D187-4DAF-884F-D98288B02536@sun.com> <474F4F9D.1040602@sun.com> <51419b2c0711291844x74253d65h9fe4a07bc6d0e06c@mail.gmail.com> Cc: Willie Walker , Hans Petter Jansson , Usability , gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org, Calum Benson Subject: Re: [Usability] Discoverable off-screen window dragging X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:11:23 -0000 On Nov 29, 2007 9:09 PM, Travis Watkins wrote: > They don't show up when using Compiz. Which is odd, because that menu > comes from libmetacity/wnck (can't remember which right now). libwnck. Yes, I remember Dan and David telling me about that now. And you'll note that they keybindings don't show up in the right-click-on-task-in-taskbar menu either since that's the same menu. But then the question arises, how do we tell libwnck what the keybinding is? That information is buried in metacity or compiz or kwin or openbox or.... Elijah From ross@burtonini.com Fri Nov 30 14:26:32 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Usability@gnome.org Delivered-To: Usability@gnome.org Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FE517500B5 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:26:32 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at gnome.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=2 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Amavis-OS-Fingerprint: Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) (NAT!) (up: 129 hrs), (distance 17, link: pppoe (DSL)), [91.84.213.104] Received: from menubar.gnome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (menubar.gnome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qL7xSzgYuSg7 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:26:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from home.burtonini.com (unknown [91.84.213.104]) by menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67522750088 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:25:59 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by home.burtonini.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A8D6DEC01; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:25:57 +0000 (GMT) From: Ross Burton To: Elijah Newren In-Reply-To: <51419b2c0711300605i2e420dc9p6339296b8b0622a8@mail.gmail.com> References: <1196292199.16075.39.camel@kzerza.site> <24b3cee726d64ccaea573abd6bfa6dda@myrealbox.com> <51419b2c0711300605i2e420dc9p6339296b8b0622a8@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-jds5VvyzodkE6LTJqWfJ" Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:25:57 +0000 Message-Id: <1196432757.22628.66.camel@blackadder> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.10.1 Cc: David Reveman , Usability , Thomas Thurman Subject: Re: [Usability] Discoverable off-screen window dragging X-BeenThere: usability@gnome.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list List-Id: This list is devoted to discussing and improving GNOME's usability List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:26:32 -0000 --=-jds5VvyzodkE6LTJqWfJ Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 2007-11-30 at 07:05 -0700, Elijah Newren wrote: > On Nov 30, 2007 4:51 AM, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > > On Nov 29, 2007, at 12:23 PM, Hans Petter Jansson wrote: > > > ... > > > Which made me wonder if there's a more discoverable way of moving > > > windows around when they're too big/partially off-screen. > > > ... > > > > Sure there is. Make a window movable by dragging not just the title > > bar, but *any* part of it that doesn't contain something else > > clickable. >=20 > Unfortunately, the WM currently has no way of determining whether a > given pixel position corresponds to something clickable in a window. > That happens to be part of the nasty drag and drop problem[1]. Matchbox lets you move dialogs by dragging the window , but maybe there are edge cases it doesn't work for. I always assumed it dragged the window around if the frame received the events, as otherwise some other X window would have eaten the events. Amusingly I just discovered by asking mallum for details that this behaviour is actually a bug, when for the last two years I thought it was a great feature. Ross --=20 Ross Burton mail: ross@burtonini.com jabber: ross@burtonini.com www: http://www.burtonini.com./ PGP Fingerprint: 1A21 F5B0 D8D0 CFE3 81D4 E25A 2D09 E447 D0B4 33DF --=-jds5VvyzodkE6LTJqWfJ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBHUB11LQnkR9C0M98RAlaWAJwLNxyjwC6zZbyKe9BWmPk71bUXkwCgtx0u i5dMRmA1NmXgdMCgK4EMvvE= =wBtQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-jds5VvyzodkE6LTJqWfJ--