Re: [orca-list] SWT (Standard Widget Toolkit) for Java platform accessibility

[Michael Whapples <mwhapples aim com>]

On Wed, 2008-07-30 at 09:05 -0400, Willie Walker wrote:
> Hi Bart, Michael:
> 
> I'm not sure there is a programmatic way from the assistive technology 
> side to determine which graphical toolkit is in use by Java.  Right now, 
> the information that is returned to us is the name of the Java access 
> bridge, which is used to access both Swing and SWT.

Is it? I am not wanting to doubt you, but I am quite sure I have used
eclipse with orca without the java access bridge installed. May be it
gets reported that way. I am going to have to go and check this.
> 
> BTW, I believe there's a design flaw in the AT-SPI, which is that the 
> application (or, in the case of Java, the Java access bridge), not the 
> individual UI object, tells us the toolkit that is being used.  The 
> reason I think this is an issue is that we run into situations where we 
> see multiple toolkits in use at once.  Yelp, for example, uses GTK+ and 
> Gecko.

I seem to have a memory that somewhere in eclipse one menu system was
reported as gecko on my braille display where as the rest of eclipse
belongs to "eclipse".
> 
> Will
> 
> Michael Whapples wrote:
> > I am not sure how to know for certain, but you can check the following.
> > If the application is accessible via ATK (not requiring the
> > gnome-java-access-bridge) then it could be a SWT app. Java swing relies
> > on the java access bridge, and I think you can tell this by using the
> > orca script information key. I don't know what orca reports about the
> > window if it is using SWT, anyone know?
> > 
> > Michael Whapples
> > On Wed, 2008-07-30 at 21:49 +1000, bart bunting net au wrote:
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> Is there an easy way to tell if a java app uses SWT?
> >>
> >> I recently tried jbidwatcher an ebay sniping program and it came up as inaccessible.  I presumed at the time that it was because it didn't use SWT but didn't really know how to check?
> >>
> >> Regards
> >>
> >> Bart
> >>
> >>
> >> Jeff Cai writes:
> >>  > I made a simple accessibility test based on Azureus, a bt client which 
> >>  > is using SWT. Please note that though SWT is written in Java, its 
> >>  > accessibility makes use of atk-bridge while not java-access-bridge.
> >>  > 
> >>  > Overall, the accessibility works fine on Azureus.
> >>  > 
> >>  > 1) honoring theming
> >>  > 
> >>  > Most controls works fine except the combo box in High Contrast themes. 
> >>  > The items in drop-down boxes can't be discriminated from the background.
> >>  > 
> >>  > 2) keyboard navigation
> >>  > 
> >>  > pretty good.
> >>  > 
> >>  > 3) orca
> >>  > 
> >>  > Most components work. orca can't read the toolbar buttons, but 
> >>  > accerciser can show them, so I guess because orca doesn't get the button 
> >>  > names.
> >>  > 
> >>  > It looks like orca also doesn't read the text in pop-up bubble on the 
> >>  > right-bottom of the screen.
> >>  > 
> >>  > Jeff
> >>  > 
> >>  > 1)
> >>  > Jeff Cai wrote:
> >>  > > Are there any stand-alone SWT example applications we can use to test 
> >>  > > the accessibility? Eclipse is too complicated to evaluate since it 
> >>  > > shows too many controls without names in accerciser.
> >>  > >
> >>  > > Jeff
> >>  > >
> >>  > > Michael Whapples wrote:
> >>  > >> On Mon, 2008-07-28 at 07:40 -0400, Willie Walker wrote:
> >>  > >>> Hi All:
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> Just curious if anyone has had a chance to work with this widget set 
> >>  > >>> or an application that uses this widget set. 
> >>  > >>
> >>  > >> I use eclipse regularly, and I think that is done in SWT.
> >>  > >>
> >>  > >>> If so, what has your accessibility experience been with respect to 
> >>  > >>> things such as: 1) honoring theming, 
> >>  > >>
> >>  > >> I am not sure, are themes just visual, if so then I won't notice being a
> >>  > >> speech and Braille user.
> >>  > >>> 2) keyboard navigation, 
> >>  > >>
> >>  > >> Key board navigation seems good. Seems to behave very much like a GTK
> >>  > >> application. I don't know whether this is that the eclipse developers
> >>  > >> have ensured this is so, as I know they have implemented many keyboard
> >>  > >> shortcuts (eg. move to problems screen, package explorer, move to
> >>  > >> console window, etc).
> >>  > >>> 3) access via Orca, 
> >>  > >>
> >>  > >> Eclipse is useable, but there are occasions when it doesn't do what you
> >>  > >> might expect (I have filed some bugs against orca for some of these).
> >>  > >> Examples of problems are:
> >>  > >> When code completion is used or eclipse does some code completion for
> >>  > >> you and you are back in the edit mode (IE not in the list of
> >>  > >> suggestions) the completion is not shown in braille until something like
> >>  > >> a semicolon (;) is done or you move away and back to the line. When the
> >>  > >> code completion isn't shown, the interesting thing is that the cursor
> >>  > >> moves, but the edit marker (the $l) doesn't, so it appears the cursor
> >>  > >> has moved outside the control in Braille. If you cursor left or right
> >>  > >> through the code completion then speech tells you the character you are
> >>  > >> moving over, and the Braille cursor moves, but the control appears in
> >>  > >> Braille as before (IE showing the text upto where the code completion
> >>  > >> was done).
> >>  > >> Braille cursor routing doesn't work (certainly in the code editor, but I
> >>  > >> think in other edit areas as well).
> >>  > >> Sometimes the tree views don't always report the right thing (not sure
> >>  > >> if orca is at fault or eclipse). This problem doesn't always show
> >>  > >> itself, but when it does show itself it seems to be when the selected
> >>  > >> item is at a higher level in the tree than an item physically further up
> >>  > >> in the list (eg. if the selected item is at level 1, and if you were to
> >>  > >> press up cursor you would get to a item at level 5).
> >>  > >> I used to have a problem with Braille being updated in the eclipse
> >>  > >> console window, but I haven't seen that for sometime and my version of
> >>  > >> eclipse has been updated since the last time I saw it, so I don't know
> >>  > >> whether it was a problem caused by eclipse which might have been fixed,
> >>  > >> or if it was to do with how I was using eclipse, or if I have simply
> >>  > >> been lucky (as it was a problem which showed itself occasionally when I
> >>  > >> did find it).
> >>  > >>> etc.?
> >>  > >>
> >>  > >> I know that eclipse may not be the best example application for many
> >>  > >> reasons (eg. its size and complexity, as well as the fact that I know
> >>  > >> that eclipse developers have done work on accessibility, so may not be
> >>  > >> representative of standard accessibility). Nevertheless I hope this is
> >>  > >> useful as a start.
> >>  > >>> Will
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>
> >>  > >> _______________________________________________
> >>  > >> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list
> >>  > >> gnome-accessibility-list gnome org
> >>  > >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list
> >>  > >
> >>  > > _______________________________________________
> >>  > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list
> >>  > > gnome-accessibility-list gnome org
> >>  > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list
> >>  > 
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> >>  > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca
> > 
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