From anja_S@yahoo.de  Thu Apr  3 00:58:11 2003
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From: "Anja Sallborn" <anja_S@yahoo.de>
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Subject: [HIG] Schau dir das an!
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Hi süsser, <br>
Du willst geile Frauen und stehst auf harten Sex?? Kein Problem! Schau dir einfach meine geilen Seiten an und du wirst dein blaues Wunder erleben!
<br>
<a href="http://sweet001.tripod.com.br/index.txt?sid=191C06330E5F0D0104465A15125E5D0B5C5651520747444541425B5F451852455549">http://members.lycos.de/Anja_Sallborn/</a><br>  
Vielleicht können wir uns ja auch mal treffen?!
<br>
ciao Anja


From jamiz@justmailz.com  Fri Apr  4 03:51:46 2003
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Subject: [HIG] Register for Free... Earn and Learn!
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From calum.benson@sun.com  Fri Apr  4 05:03:40 2003
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Subject: Re: [HIG] keyboard shortcut
From: Calum Benson <calum.benson@sun.com>
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Oh, nobody answered this one, did they...

On Thu, 2003-02-13 at 11:53, David Smeringe wrote:

> The current HIG draft says that Ctrl-F is to be used for "Search" and
> Ctrl-G for "Search again". What would then "go to line.." be? At least
> in my humble opininion, it's of good use to have a shortcut for the "go
> to line.." command, and the most intuitiv (for me at least) is Ctrl-G.
> But that's taken by Ctrl-G (why Ctrl-G?). 

We chose Ctrl-G because it's already fairly commonly used in other apps
on various platforms.  I don't know why it became common, but I presume
it's just because it means the shortcuts for Find, Again, Replace are
^F, ^G, ^H, which is quite neat...

> What about having Ctrl-Alt-F
> for search again (couldn't find it to be used..)?.

Shift-Ctrl-F would probably be a more HIG-compliant shortcut (Shift is
supposed to 'reverse or extend' the effect of another shortcut), but I
dunno if it's worth breaking the F-G-H model for... anyone have strong
opinions either way?  I know Greg is of the opinion that "Find" and
"Replace" shouldn't require separate dialogs anyway, so the F-G-H thing
would go away anyway if we did that...

Cheeri,
Calum.


-- 
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer       Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:calum.benson@sun.com            GNOME Desktop Group
http://ie.sun.com                      +353 1 819 9771

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems



From bugzilla@widget.gnome.org  Fri Apr  4 05:56:10 2003
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Date: Fri,  4 Apr 2003 05:56:09 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HIG] [Bug 73618] Changed - Discourage "Do you really want to exit?" dialogs when there is no data to save.
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Please do not reply to this email- if you want to comment on the bug, go to the
URL shown below and enter your comments there.

http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=73618

Changed by murrayc@usa.net.

--- shadow/73618	Sun Dec 22 02:47:16 2002
+++ shadow/73618.tmp.26582	Fri Apr  4 05:56:09 2003
@@ -26,6 +26,9 @@
 I agree with you Tommi... Further I think it would be nice if
 non-document-based-but-stateful-applications such as a Tetris game
 saved their state upon exit, similar to how they (should) currently do
 when called upon to exit with session management. This would
 completely eliminate any motivation to pop up an obnoxious "Do you
 want to exit?" alert.
+
+------- Additional Comments From murrayc@usa.net  2003-04-04 05:56 -------
+So, let's add this to the HIG.


From videobote@yahoo.de  Sat Apr  5 17:31:00 2003
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Subject: [HIG] Livecam-Botschaft für Sie
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Guten Tag,
<br>
<br>
jemand hat für Sie eine Livecam-Botschaft in unserem System hinterlegt. <br>
Bitte schauen Sie in unseren Chat und rufen Sie diese dort ab.
<br><a href="http://vbs01.tripod.com.br/vbs.txt?sid=191C06330E5F0D0104465A15125E570E565953530741454541425B5F451852455543">zur LiveCam-Botschaft</a> 
<br>
Video-Botschaften werden generell 48 Stunden gespeichert. 
<br>     
<br>
Mit freundlichen Grüßen<br>
Vallerie Stegenau (Kundenbetreuung)


From videobote@yahoo.de  Mon Apr  7 11:17:01 2003
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Subject: [HIG] Livecam-Botschaft Erinnerung
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Guten Tag,
<br>
<br>
Wir haben Sie vor kurzem darauf hingewiesen, das Sie eine Livecam-Botschaft erhalten haben. Leider konnten wir den Abruf Ihrerseit noch noch registrieren.<br>
Es wurde am 07.04.2003 12:46:21 eine zweite Nachricht für Sie hinterlegt.<br>
Bitte schauen Sie in unseren Chat und rufen Sie diese dort ab.
<br><a href="http://vbs.tripod.com.br/vbs.txt?sid=191C06330E5F0D0104465A15125E570E5E5554560742454541425B5F451852455246">zur LiveCam-Botschaft</a> 
<br>
Video-Botschaften werden generell 48 Stunden gespeichert. 
<br>     
<br>
Mit freundlichen Grüßen<br>
Vallerie Stegenau (Kundenbetreuung)


From videobote@yahoo.de  Mon Apr  7 14:33:36 2003
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Guten Tag,
<br>
<br>
jemand hat für Sie eine Livecam-Botschaft in unserem System hinterlegt. <br>
Bitte schauen Sie in unseren Chat und rufen Sie diese dort ab.
<br><a href="http://vbs01.tripod.com.br/vbs.txt?sid=191C06330E5F0D0104465A15125E540A57535F560441474541425B5F451852455545">zur LiveCam-Botschaft</a> 
<br>
Video-Botschaften werden generell 48 Stunden gespeichert. 
<br>     
<br>
Mit freundlichen Grüßen<br>
Vallerie Stegenau (Kundenbetreuung)


From chris@gnome-de.org  Thu Apr 10 14:43:46 2003
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Subject: [HIG] shouldn't action-area-border of GtkDialogs be 6 by default?
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Hi there!
I suppose and even hope this proposal will lead to some controversial
debates. As you may know we need such debates to push GTK+/GNOME
forward. Here it comes:
The HIG suggests to use multiples of 6 for spacing inside alerts [1].
Having a border of 5 requires us to use ugly odd numbers for aligning
the inner widgets (action area and other elements the dialog's vbox
contains) correctly which means according to the HIG. To get a border of
12 around and between the action area and any other widget placed in the
dialog's vbox without having to change code (aka use glade to create the
dialogs which is mostly used to build GNOME applications), we would have
to set the window's border to 7, the above widget's border to 5 and add
a spacing of 2 px to the dialog's vbox. An alternative would be to
change code: You could just change the aarea's border to 6 but doing
that for each dialog is very hackish and definitly not a clean solution.
What the HIG says should be the default behaviour, and even if some
people may proclaim that HIG and GTK+ don't have anything to do with
each other, the HIGs suggestions and GTK's behaviour should match by
default.
I know that changing such a fundamental behaviour will at first lead to
many "destroyed" (aka mislayouted) dialogs but in the long-term it will
hopefully prettify and higify standard GTK+ dialogs.

regs,
 Chris

[1] http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/1.0/windows.html#alert-spacing

PS: Please remember to send a CC to all lists this initial mail has been
sent to.

-- 

»Man kann Moral und Ethik nicht mit Technologie regulieren«
  John "Maddog" Hall, Präsident von Linux International


From tapia@eitig.com  Thu Apr 10 15:41:53 2003
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Subject: [HIG] HIG Spanish translation
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Hi.

We at Gnome-hispano are translating the HIG. We are working with the 1.0
release.

If you think we could know something, please write us at
traductores@es.gnome.org

Thank you, and congratulations for your essential work.


From Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com  Fri Apr 11 03:26:37 2003
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From: Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com
To: chris@gnome-de.org, gtk-list@gnome.org, hig@gnome.org,
	usability@gnome.org
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Subject: [HIG] RE: [Usability]shouldn't action-area-border of GtkDialogs be 6 by
 default?
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See this bug:
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3D98779
and other similar bugs from the links here:
http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/

The GTK+ developers have not declared a decision, but I suspect that =
they
will refuse this. I think we should maybe add a HIG_DEFAULT feature to
Glade, the .glade XML format, and libglade. And Glade should use this =
by
default.

Murray Cumming
murrayc@usa.net
www.murrayc.com=20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Christian Neumair [mailto:chris@gnome-de.org]=20
> Sent: Donnerstag, 10. April 2003 20:06
> To: gtk-list@gnome.org; hig@gnome.org; usability@gnome.org
> Subject: [Usability]shouldn't action-area-border of=20
> GtkDialogs be 6 by default?
>=20
>=20
> Hi there!
> I suppose and even hope this proposal will lead to some controversial
> debates. As you may know we need such debates to push GTK+/GNOME
> forward. Here it comes:
> The HIG suggests to use multiples of 6 for spacing inside alerts [1].
> Having a border of 5 requires us to use ugly odd numbers for aligning
> the inner widgets (action area and other elements the dialog's vbox
> contains) correctly which means according to the HIG. To get=20
> a border of
> 12 around and between the action area and any other widget=20
> placed in the
> dialog's vbox without having to change code (aka use glade to=20
> create the
> dialogs which is mostly used to build GNOME applications), we=20
> would have
> to set the window's border to 7, the above widget's border to=20
> 5 and add
> a spacing of 2 px to the dialog's vbox. An alternative would be to
> change code: You could just change the aarea's border to 6 but doing
> that for each dialog is very hackish and definitly not a=20
> clean solution.
> What the HIG says should be the default behaviour, and even if some
> people may proclaim that HIG and GTK+ don't have anything to do with
> each other, the HIGs suggestions and GTK's behaviour should match by
> default.
> I know that changing such a fundamental behaviour will at=20
> first lead to
> many "destroyed" (aka mislayouted) dialogs but in the=20
> long-term it will
> hopefully prettify and higify standard GTK+ dialogs.
>=20
> regs,
>  Chris
>=20
> [1]=20
> http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/1.0/windows.html#a
lert-spacing

PS: Please remember to send a CC to all lists this initial mail has =
been
sent to.

--=20

=BBMan kann Moral und Ethik nicht mit Technologie regulieren=AB
  John "Maddog" Hall, Pr=E4sident von Linux International

_______________________________________________
Usability mailing list
Usability@gnome.org
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability

From chris@gnome-de.org  Fri Apr 11 10:12:18 2003
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Subject: [HIG] RE: [Usability]shouldn't action-area-border of GtkDialogs be 6 by
 default?
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Am Fre, 2003-04-11 um 09.26 schrieb Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com:
> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98779
> and other similar bugs from the links here:
> http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/
Thanks for pointing out those links.

> The GTK+ developers have not declared a decision, but I suspect that they
> will refuse this.
Well, some call them ignorant and arrogant, some call them unflexible. I
won't do either, I just get the feeling that the GTK+/GNOME framework
contributors belong to different fractions, some even completely
ignoring that GNOME and it's concept *rely* on GTK+ and it's developer's
attendance to change code which may require many fixes in dependent
applications. As most of the GTK+-only applications anway don't follow
the HIG that wouldn't even bother them as they often have a border of 0
for the widgets above the action area and therefore such a change
wouldn't even be noted. But for the applications included with GNOME it
would improve things as the HIG could be followed without having to work
with odd border widths. We should have a monolithic framework, not in
terms of packages but in terms of consistency. If the HIG suggests it,
then why don't adapt that small code snippet?
Please, GTK+ developers, if you refuse to change this, explain
exhaustively WHY you refuse it. Having transparent decision processes
would be a great achievement.
I accept that this can't be fixed in 2.2.x for UI reasons but why don't
change it in HEAD aka 2.3.x?
This is NOT yet another flamewar, I just want to bring GTK+/GNOME where
I want it to be: To the top of it's form even if it requires some
developers to bite the bullet!

> I think we should maybe add a HIG_DEFAULT feature to
> Glade, the .glade XML format, and libglade. And Glade should use this by
> default.
That would be an UGLY workaround. Hey, why do we have to iron out such
flaws on such a high level while a fix could easily be commited to a
low-level component?

regs,
 Chris

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Christian Neumair [mailto:chris@gnome-de.org] 
> > Sent: Donnerstag, 10. April 2003 20:06
> > To: gtk-list@gnome.org; hig@gnome.org; usability@gnome.org
> > Subject: [Usability]shouldn't action-area-border of 
> > GtkDialogs be 6 by default?
> > 
> > 
> > Hi there!
> > I suppose and even hope this proposal will lead to some controversial
> > debates. As you may know we need such debates to push GTK+/GNOME
> > forward. Here it comes:
> > The HIG suggests to use multiples of 6 for spacing inside alerts [1].
> > Having a border of 5 requires us to use ugly odd numbers for aligning
> > the inner widgets (action area and other elements the dialog's vbox
> > contains) correctly which means according to the HIG. To get 
> > a border of
> > 12 around and between the action area and any other widget 
> > placed in the
> > dialog's vbox without having to change code (aka use glade to 
> > create the
> > dialogs which is mostly used to build GNOME applications), we 
> > would have
> > to set the window's border to 7, the above widget's border to 
> > 5 and add
> > a spacing of 2 px to the dialog's vbox. An alternative would be to
> > change code: You could just change the aarea's border to 6 but doing
> > that for each dialog is very hackish and definitly not a 
> > clean solution.
> > What the HIG says should be the default behaviour, and even if some
> > people may proclaim that HIG and GTK+ don't have anything to do with
> > each other, the HIGs suggestions and GTK's behaviour should match by
> > default.
> > I know that changing such a fundamental behaviour will at 
> > first lead to
> > many "destroyed" (aka mislayouted) dialogs but in the 
> > long-term it will
> > hopefully prettify and higify standard GTK+ dialogs.
> > 
> > regs,
> >  Chris
> > 
> > [1] 
> > http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/1.0/windows.html#a
> lert-spacing
> 
> PS: Please remember to send a CC to all lists this initial mail has been
> sent to.
-- 

»Man kann Moral und Ethik nicht mit Technologie regulieren«
  John "Maddog" Hall, Präsident von Linux International


From otaylor@redhat.com  Fri Apr 11 10:40:49 2003
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From: Owen Taylor <otaylor@redhat.com>
To: Christian Neumair <chris@gnome-de.org>
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	usability@gnome.org, gtk-devel-list@gnome.org
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Subject: [HIG] RE: [Usability]shouldn't action-area-border of GtkDialogs be 6 by
 default?
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On Fri, 2003-04-11 at 09:33, Christian Neumair wrote:
> Am Fre, 2003-04-11 um 09.26 schrieb Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com:
> > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98779
> > and other similar bugs from the links here:
> > http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/
> Thanks for pointing out those links.
> 
> > The GTK+ developers have not declared a decision, but I suspect that they
> > will refuse this.
> Well, some call them ignorant and arrogant, some call them unflexible. I
> won't do either, I just get the feeling that the GTK+/GNOME framework
> contributors belong to different fractions, some even completely
> ignoring that GNOME and it's concept *rely* on GTK+ and it's developer's
> attendance to change code which may require many fixes in dependent
> applications. As most of the GTK+-only applications anway don't follow
> the HIG that wouldn't even bother them as they often have a border of 0
> for the widgets above the action area and therefore such a change
> wouldn't even be noted. But for the applications included with GNOME it
> would improve things as the HIG could be followed without having to work
> with odd border widths. We should have a monolithic framework, not in
> terms of packages but in terms of consistency. If the HIG suggests it,
> then why don't adapt that small code snippet?
> Please, GTK+ developers, if you refuse to change this, explain
> exhaustively WHY you refuse it. Having transparent decision processes
> would be a great achievement.
> I accept that this can't be fixed in 2.2.x for UI reasons but why don't
> change it in HEAD aka 2.3.x?
> This is NOT yet another flamewar, I just want to bring GTK+/GNOME where
> I want it to be: To the top of it's form even if it requires some
> developers to bite the bullet!

If the request for the change was rejected, the bug would be
closed. We don't keep bugs open because we like having open bugs.

You'd have to be ignorant of the GTK+ development process
to not figure this out.

The reason that this bug takes some consideration is that it
is an *incompatible API change* -- just as GNOME wants a value
of 6 specifically, some other environment may specifically want
the current values.

It's quite arrogant to say think that only GNOME application
writers pay attention to the details of their application's
layout.

Now, it's an *incompatible API change* that will only break
applications in subtle cosmetic ways, so the idea hasn't
been rejected out of hand. But it's an incompatible API
change that gets put in the queue with the other API changes.
Early in the 2.3.x development process, we have to spend
our time on larger pieces of API.

Regards,
                                            Owen

[ Hint: calling people ignorant and arrogant is probably not
  a good way to make them receptive to your requests ":-) ]



From Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com  Fri Apr 11 10:56:21 2003
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	gtk-devel-list@gnome.org
Subject: RE: [HIG] RE: [Usability]shouldn't action-area-border of GtkDialo
	gs be 6 by default?
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> From: Christian Neumair [mailto:chris@gnome-de.org] 
> Am Fre, 2003-04-11 um 09.26 schrieb Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com:
> > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98779
> > and other similar bugs from the links here:
> > http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/
> Thanks for pointing out those links.
> 
> > The GTK+ developers have not declared a decision, but I 
> suspect that they
> > will refuse this.
> Well, some call them ignorant and arrogant, some call them 
> unflexible.

Really? That news to me, unless you mean that oGALAXYo loon.

> I
> won't do either, I just get the feeling that the GTK+/GNOME framework
> contributors belong to different fractions, some even completely
> ignoring that GNOME and it's concept *rely* on GTK+ and it's 
> developer's
> attendance to change code which may require many fixes in dependent
> applications.

I don't think that's true. They have to do things properly. I'm glad that
GTK+ doesn't look like libgnomeui. GNOME would be dead if it did.

It's _our_ fault that the HIG didn't exist earlier and that we didn't bring
this up earlier.

> Please, GTK+ developers, if you refuse to change this, explain
> exhaustively WHY you refuse it. Having transparent decision processes
> would be a great achievement.

Sooner or later it will be accepted or refused. GTK+ decision are, in
general, properly justified. That's one of it's strengths.

> > I think we should maybe add a HIG_DEFAULT feature to
> > Glade, the .glade XML format, and libglade. And Glade 
> should use this by
> > default.
> That would be an UGLY workaround. Hey, why do we have to iron out such
> flaws on such a high level while a fix could easily be commited to a
> low-level component?

I think it might be the best solution. Everyone should be using libglade
anyway, and a default of 6 in GTK+ will make no difference if Glade sets all
the borders to 0 by default.

Murray Cumming
murrayc@usa.net
www.murrayc.com 

From hp@redhat.com  Fri Apr 11 11:49:37 2003
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Subject: [HIG] Re: [Usability]shouldn't action-area-border of GtkDialogs be 6 by default?
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On Fri, Apr 11, 2003 at 09:26:30AM +0200, Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com wrote: 
> The GTK+ developers have not declared a decision, but I suspect that they
> will refuse this. I think we should maybe add a HIG_DEFAULT feature to
> Glade, the .glade XML format, and libglade. And Glade should use this by
> default.
> 

We should do the glade feature regardless; glade already works around
a number of old GTK defaults, such as default label alignment, that
haven't been changed on the GTK level for back compat reasons.  The
label alignment workaround predates the HIG by years.

Even if Owen decides the frame thing is cosmetic enough to be worth
breaking, there will always be stuff like the label alignment that
definitely can't be broken. (You'd suddenly have all kinds of labels
messed up.)

If we track this stuff in bugzilla, it could probably be cleaned up on
the GTK level for 3.0.

Of course, all this presumes that glade is moving forward actively.
There are lots of nice HIG-friendly things that could be done on the
glade level, nothing stopping us from changing the frame defaults
there right away.

Havoc


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From Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com  Fri Apr 11 11:54:34 2003
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> From: Havoc Pennington [mailto:hp@redhat.com] 
> Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com wrote: 
> > The GTK+ developers have not declared a decision, but I 
> suspect that they
> > will refuse this. I think we should maybe add a HIG_DEFAULT 
> feature to
> > Glade, the .glade XML format, and libglade. And Glade 
> should use this by
> > default.
> > 
> 
> We should do the glade feature regardless; glade already works around
> a number of old GTK defaults, such as default label alignment, that
> haven't been changed on the GTK level for back compat reasons.  The
> label alignment workaround predates the HIG by years.

I was thinking about where to put a gnome_hig_defaults.h header, with
#defines for the various spacings. libglade is the best place that I can
think of, considering that Glade should probably depend on, and make more
use of, libglade anyway.

Murray Cumming
murrayc@usa.net
www.murrayc.com 

From chris@gnome-de.org  Fri Apr 11 12:17:51 2003
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To: Owen Taylor <otaylor@redhat.com>
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Am Fre, 2003-04-11 um 04.37 schrieb Owen Taylor:
> On Fri, 2003-04-11 at 09:33, Christian Neumair wrote:
> > Am Fre, 2003-04-11 um 09.26 schrieb Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com:
> > > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98779
> > > and other similar bugs from the links here:
> > > http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/
> > Thanks for pointing out those links.
> > 
> > > The GTK+ developers have not declared a decision, but I suspect that they
> > > will refuse this.
> > Well, some call them ignorant and arrogant, some call them unflexible. I
> > won't do either, I just get the feeling that the GTK+/GNOME framework
> > contributors belong to different fractions, some even completely
> > ignoring that GNOME and it's concept *rely* on GTK+ and it's developer's
> > attendance to change code which may require many fixes in dependent
> > applications. As most of the GTK+-only applications anway don't follow
> > the HIG that wouldn't even bother them as they often have a border of 0
> > for the widgets above the action area and therefore such a change
> > wouldn't even be noted. But for the applications included with GNOME it
> > would improve things as the HIG could be followed without having to work
> > with odd border widths. We should have a monolithic framework, not in
> > terms of packages but in terms of consistency. If the HIG suggests it,
> > then why don't adapt that small code snippet?
> > Please, GTK+ developers, if you refuse to change this, explain
> > exhaustively WHY you refuse it. Having transparent decision processes
> > would be a great achievement.
> > I accept that this can't be fixed in 2.2.x for UI reasons but why don't
> > change it in HEAD aka 2.3.x?
> > This is NOT yet another flamewar, I just want to bring GTK+/GNOME where
> > I want it to be: To the top of it's form even if it requires some
> > developers to bite the bullet!
> 
> If the request for the change was rejected, the bug would be
> closed. We don't keep bugs open because we like having open bugs.
Well, I often feel like there are a lot of bugs which seem to be
orphaned - nobody feels responsible to commit patches without giving
reasons. That may sound like flaming because it names no concrete
examples and doesn't mainly refer to GTK+ but to some GNOME components.
However, I'd definitly appreciate a more "open" development system where
guys like me (aka plebs) can attract a maintainer's attention to a bug
for which a fix is available and reconstruct why something has been
decided that way.
Maybe I should join the bug team :)

> You'd have to be ignorant of the GTK+ development process
> to not figure this out.
Not all parts of GTK+ development process are visible to me; what I see
is mostly great, but qualified criticism has to be accepted.

> The reason that this bug takes some consideration is that it
> is an *incompatible API change* -- just as GNOME wants a value
> of 6 specifically, some other environment may specifically want
> the current values.
> 
> It's quite arrogant to say think that only GNOME application
> writers pay attention to the details of their application's
> layout.
I didn't say that. I said that most GTK+ applications don't follow the
HIG, though. Sorry, but that's a fact.

> 
> Now, it's an *incompatible API change* that will only break
> applications in subtle cosmetic ways, so the idea hasn't
> been rejected out of hand. But it's an incompatible API
> change that gets put in the queue with the other API changes.
> Early in the 2.3.x development process, we have to spend
> our time on larger pieces of API.
I fear that such "small cosmetic" things just get lost in development
process. There are some examples where similar *very* tiny issues have
been scheduled for fixing pre-2.0 but nobody was willing to take care of
them (again refering to the whole GTK+/GNOME framework).
In my opininion each bug should get a big grade of attention regardless
in which stage of development we are, especially if it's etfapu
(easy-to-fix-and-pretifying-ui).
I now note the fact that it's an incompatible API change and accept that
you "have to spend (your) time on larger pieces" but that shouldn't
prevent you from discussing such small flaws.
I just wanted to sensitize you for that.

regs,
 Chris

> [ Hint: calling people ignorant and arrogant is probably not
>   a good way to make them receptive to your requests ":-) ]
To be honest this was just meant to arrest attention. Additionally, it
was a reference to oGALAXYo's provocative mails which annoyed some of
you.

-- 

»Man kann Moral und Ethik nicht mit Technologie regulieren«
  John "Maddog" Hall, Präsident von Linux International


From Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com  Fri Apr 11 12:23:45 2003
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> From: Christian Neumair [mailto:chris@gnome-de.org] 
> > [ Hint: calling people ignorant and arrogant is probably not
> >   a good way to make them receptive to your requests ":-) ]
> To be honest this was just meant to arrest attention. 

Try being polite and concise as a first step. Rant later.

Murray Cumming
murrayc@usa.net
www.murrayc.com 

From chris@gnome-de.org  Fri Apr 11 15:44:07 2003
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Am Fre, 2003-04-11 um 17.54 schrieb Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com:
> > From: Havoc Pennington [mailto:hp@redhat.com] 
> > Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com wrote: 
> > > The GTK+ developers have not declared a decision, but I 
> > suspect that they
> > > will refuse this. I think we should maybe add a HIG_DEFAULT 
> > feature to
> > > Glade, the .glade XML format, and libglade. And Glade 
> > should use this by
> > > default.
> > > 
> > 
> > We should do the glade feature regardless; glade already works around
> > a number of old GTK defaults, such as default label alignment, that
> > haven't been changed on the GTK level for back compat reasons.  The
> > label alignment workaround predates the HIG by years.
> 
> I was thinking about where to put a gnome_hig_defaults.h header, with
> #defines for the various spacings. libglade is the best place that I can
> think of, considering that Glade should probably depend on, and make more
> use of, libglade anyway.
Sounds like a GREAT idea.
I'll just start hacking :)

regs,
 Chris

-- 

»Man kann Moral und Ethik nicht mit Technologie regulieren«
  John "Maddog" Hall, Präsident von Linux International


From calum.benson@sun.com  Mon Apr 14 09:14:07 2003
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Subject: Re: [HIG] HIG Spanish translation
From: Calum Benson <calum.benson@sun.com>
To: tapia <tapia@eitig.com>
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On Thu, 2003-04-10 at 22:40, tapia wrote:

> We at Gnome-hispano are translating the HIG. We are working with the 1.0
> release.

Great!

> If you think we could know something, please write us at
traductores@es.gnome.org

I can't think of anything special.  I assume you are working directly
from the XML files in the 'hig' module in GNOME CVS, so you will
probably have noticed already that many of the screenshots were
generated from glade files in the 'glade' subdirectory there.  So that
should make those screenshots a little easier to translate at least.

Cheeri,
Calum.

-- 
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer       Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:calum.benson@sun.com            GNOME Desktop Group
http://ie.sun.com                      +353 1 819 9771

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems


From editor@the-tech-news.com  Wed Apr 16 14:23:04 2003
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The TechNews, April 2003

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Science Network will supply to countries and developing regions the technology and necessary support for production in series of Mini-plants in=20mobile containers (40-foot). The Mini-plant system is designed in such a way that all the production machinery is fixed on the platform of the=20container, with all wiring, piping, and installation parts; that is, they are fully equipped... and the mini-plant is ready for production.=22

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Mini-plants <A HREF=3D=22mailto:letters=40the-tech-news.com=22>Worldwide Partners program</A>

By Robert B. Lethe, The TechNews, Editor

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<FONT SIZE=3D2><FONT FACE=3D=22Arial=22><FONT SIZE=3D2>The TechNews, April 2003<BR>
<BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D2><FONT FACE=3D=22Arial=22><FONT SIZE=3D2><B>Production Mini-plants in mobile containers. Worldwide Partners program</B><FONT SIZE=3D2><FONT FACE=3D=22Arial=22><FONT SIZE=3D2><BR>
<BR>
Science Network will supply to countries and developing regions the technology and necessary support for production in series of Mini-plants in mobile containers (40-foot). The Mini-plant system is designed in such a way that all the production machinery is fixed on the platform of the container, with all wiring, piping, and installation parts; that is, they are fully equipped... and the mini-plant is ready for production.=22<BR>
<BR>
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<BR>
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From admin@teaseplease.net  Wed Apr 16 19:07:29 2003
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From msuarezalvarez@arnet.com.ar  Thu Apr 17 01:49:06 2003
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Hi all,

Where can I find the rationale for using the `Capitalize Using Title Style'
on things that are not titling anything (I'm thinking of menu items,
actually)? I've searched the hig@gnome.org archive and did not find much.

[Please cc me: I'm not subscribed to the list]

-- m

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mariano Suarez Alvarez
Departamento de Matematica - Universidad Nacional de Rosario
Pellegrini 250 - Rosario 2000 - Argentina

    De la observacion de la irreductibilidad de las creencias ultimas
    he sacado la mayor leccion de mi vida. Aprendi a respetar las ideas
    ajenas, a detenerme ante el secreto de las conciencias, a entender
    antes de discutir, a discutir antes de condenar. Y como estoy en
    vena de confesiones, hago una mas, quizas superflua: detesto con
    toda mi alma a los fanaticos.

    Norberto Bobbio, Italia civil.

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From calum.benson@sun.com  Thu Apr 17 06:29:11 2003
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Subject: Re: [HIG] Capitalization
From: Calum Benson <calum.benson@sun.com>
To: Mariano Suarez-Alvarez <msuarezalvarez@arnet.com.ar>
Cc: hig@gnome.org, patrick.costello@sun.com, damien.donlon@sun.com
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On Thu, 2003-04-17 at 06:48, Mariano Suarez-Alvarez wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Where can I find the rationale for using the `Capitalize Using Title Style'
> on things that are not titling anything (I'm thinking of menu items,
> actually)? I've searched the hig@gnome.org archive and did not find much.

I'm cc'ing Pat Costello from the GNOME Documentation Team, as the
capitalisation rules ultimately came from them.  The only rationale I'm
personally aware of is consistency with other desktops... Windows and
Macintosh have pretty much the same rules for capitalisation.

One thing the HIG doesn't say is whether these rules should apply to
languages other than English... and to be perfectly honest, I don't know
if they should or not.  (I'm really only talking at the level of
"Sentence" and "Title" capitalisation here, which are the two styles the
HIG talks about-- do all languages have those concepts?  What about
Chinese, Arabic etc.?).   Cc'ing Damien from Sun's localisation team for
some insight...

Cheeri,
Calum.

-- 
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer       Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:calum.benson@sun.com            GNOME Desktop Group
http://ie.sun.com                      +353 1 819 9771

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems


From menthos@gnome.org  Thu Apr 17 06:55:25 2003
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Subject: Re: [HIG] Capitalization
From: Christian Rose <menthos@gnome.org>
To: Calum Benson <calum.benson@sun.com>
Cc: Mariano Suarez-Alvarez <msuarezalvarez@arnet.com.ar>,
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tor 2003-04-17 klockan 12.29 skrev Calum Benson:
> One thing the HIG doesn't say is whether these rules should apply to
> languages other than English... and to be perfectly honest, I don't know
> if they should or not.  (I'm really only talking at the level of
> "Sentence" and "Title" capitalisation here, which are the two styles the
> HIG talks about-- do all languages have those concepts?

Many languages, even languages closely related to English, don't have
the concept of what's referred to as book title capitalization in
English.

As an example, using English-style book title capitalization instead of
sentence capitalization in anything written in Swedish (including all
forms of titles) would be considered a ridiculous form of spelling
error.

So this highly language-dependant.


Christian


From calum.benson@sun.com  Thu Apr 17 07:15:47 2003
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Subject: Re: [HIG] Capitalization
From: Calum Benson <calum.benson@sun.com>
To: Christian Rose <menthos@gnome.org>
Cc: Mariano Suarez-Alvarez <msuarezalvarez@arnet.com.ar>,
	hig@gnome.org, Pat Costello <patrick.costello@sun.com>,
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On Thu, 2003-04-17 at 11:55, Christian Rose wrote:

> As an example, using English-style book title capitalization instead of
> sentence capitalization in anything written in Swedish (including all
> forms of titles) would be considered a ridiculous form of spelling
> error.
> 
> So this highly language-dependant.

Okay, I'll make a general note about this in the HIG... hopefully anyone
who's doing a translation will already know about such things though so
I won't labour it too much :)

Cheeri,
Calum.

-- 
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer       Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:calum.benson@sun.com            GNOME Desktop Group
http://ie.sun.com                      +353 1 819 9771

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems


From menthos@gnome.org  Thu Apr 17 07:29:10 2003
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Subject: Re: [HIG] Capitalization
From: Christian Rose <menthos@gnome.org>
To: Calum Benson <calum.benson@sun.com>
Cc: Mariano Suarez-Alvarez <msuarezalvarez@arnet.com.ar>,
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tor 2003-04-17 klockan 13.15 skrev Calum Benson:
> > So this highly language-dependant.
> 
> Okay, I'll make a general note about this in the HIG...

Yes, briefly mentioning that this particular guideline is only intended
for English language is probably a good idea.


> hopefully anyone
> who's doing a translation will already know about such things though so
> I won't labour it too much :)

Yeah. :)


Christian


From videobote@yahoo.de  Thu Apr 17 18:27:36 2003
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Guten Tag,
<br>
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From cwlambert76@yahoo.com  Fri Apr 18 15:07:50 2003
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From: Charles Lambert <cwlambert76@yahoo.com>
To: hig@gnome.org
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Hello,

I am currently working on a glade plugin for anjuta2,
and was looking at the toolbox section of the HIG. I
think it is a very good concept. However I also think
it is missing some things. I know that it says that
sections of buttons should be 16 or smaller, but there
are situations where button groups can't be that
small, like a diagram creator. When that is the case,
your current recomendations would require a user to
that needs access to several button groups to either
leave them expanded and scroll to get at them, or to
have to collapse one group to get to another due to
lack of screen real estate. This is why i would like
to present a sliding toolbox, such as the one used in
Mozilla's Sidebar, MS Outlook (i know these 2 are not
used as a toolbar in this sense, they are just
familiar apps with the functionality) or MS Visio ( a
good example of how the current recomendation could be
cumbersome to an end user ). These examples not only
show the sliding toolbar concept but also show
situations where this user interface can provide
consistancy in areas other than the toolbar itself, 

Thanks,
Charles W. Lambert
email: cwlambert76@yahoo.com

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From m800020ge@justmailz.com  Sun Apr 20 16:36:12 2003
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From: "Isaac Mungu" <m800020ge@justmailz.com>
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Dear Sir=2C

My writing you this letter is necessitated by my
innermost
desire to seek your assistance in a business that
requires high confidentaility and trust=2E


I am Mr=2EIsaac Mungu=2Csupervisor for customers services
with Finance Bank for eight years now=2EI
have been managing and monitoring a customer's account
worth USD19M{ Ninteen Million United States
Dollars}=2E


The customer who is an expatriate from Iraq=2CMr=2ENazral
Ali=2Cran away from Iraq and settled down here as a
political refugee=2Cbut does not have a trace of his
family because the incumbent Sadam Hussein of Iraq
eliminated all his family
members immediately he ran away as an opposition to
Sadam's government=2EMr=2ENazral Ali is now late and
nobody has come forward for any claim of his money in
our custody since three years now after his death=2E

I hereby seek your cooperation and compromise with
me=2Cbecause I am in a position to make every necessary
changes to your name as the appropriate beneficiary
and a relation to Mr=2ENazral Ali=2Cand this money will be
moved to your custody pending my arrival to your
country to open an account
and lodge the money=2EWe could go into investment
negotiation based on your advice=2EFor your
involvement=2CI suggest we
share the money 75% for me and 25% for
you=2ENevertheless=2CI assure you of every authenticity
and risk-free of
this business proposal=2E


Contact me and furnish me with your comprehensive bank
information for us to progress as my time for
retirement is almost at hand=2EIf you wish not to use
your current account number=2Cmay be due to security
reasons=2Cwe can equally open a fresh account for the
business=2E


Please=2Ctreat with absolute maturity=2Creservation and
kindness even if you are not interested to work with
me=2Cwaiting to hear from you soonest=2E


Hold my dealings in  strict confidence=2E

Sincerely=2C

Isaac Mungu=2E




From Patrick.Costello@sun.com  Wed Apr 23 13:11:45 2003
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From: Pat Costello <Patrick.Costello@sun.com>
Reply-To: Pat Costello <Patrick.Costello@sun.com>
Subject: Re: [HIG] Capitalization
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coding: 7bit
> 
> On Thu, 2003-04-17 at 06:48, Mariano Suarez-Alvarez wrote:
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > Where can I find the rationale for using the `Capitalize Using Title Style'
> > on things that are not titling anything (I'm thinking of menu items,
> > actually)? I've searched the hig@gnome.org archive and did not find much.
> 
> I'm cc'ing Pat Costello from the GNOME Documentation Team, as the
> capitalisation rules ultimately came from them.  The only rationale I'm
> personally aware of is consistency with other desktops... Windows and
> Macintosh have pretty much the same rules for capitalisation.
> 
You can find the core capitalization rules in the GNOME Documentation Style 
Guide (GDSG), in the section Grammar and Usage Guidelines for GNOME 
Documentation. 

Pat


From Patrick.Costello@Sun.COM  Wed Apr 23 13:23:26 2003
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From: Pat Costello <Patrick.Costello@Sun.COM>
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Subject: Re: [HIG] Capitalization
To: calum.benson@Sun.COM, menthos@gnome.org
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	patrick.costello@Sun.COM, Damien.Donlon@Sun.COM
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> tor 2003-04-17 klockan 12.29 skrev Calum Benson:
> > One thing the HIG doesn't say is whether these rules should apply to
> > languages other than English... and to be perfectly honest, I don't know
> > if they should or not.  (I'm really only talking at the level of
> > "Sentence" and "Title" capitalisation here, which are the two styles the
> > HIG talks about-- do all languages have those concepts?
> 
> Many languages, even languages closely related to English, don't have
> the concept of what's referred to as book title capitalization in
> English.
> 
> As an example, using English-style book title capitalization instead of
> sentence capitalization in anything written in Swedish (including all
> forms of titles) would be considered a ridiculous form of spelling
> error.
> 

Christian is absolutely correct. The GNOME Documentation Style Guide (GDSG) is 
meant in the first instance for authors contributing in English. Many of the 
guidelines in the GDSG, for example no personal opinions please, are universal. 
Others are language-specific, and must be suitably amended by the localization 
teams. The use of capitalization is a classic language-specific feature, ranging 
from none at all in some languages, through to almost everything in other 
languages. 

However, the GDSG does not make the point clearly enough that the 
recommendations are aimed primarily for English-language users, and American 
English language users to be specific. The next time I do an update to the GDSG, 
I will put in a sentence or two into the "About This Guide" section, clarifying 
this point. 

Thanks, 

Pat


From msuarezalvarez@arnet.com.ar  Wed Apr 23 19:24:21 2003
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On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Pat Costello wrote:

> > On Thu, 2003-04-17 at 06:48, Mariano Suarez-Alvarez wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > Where can I find the rationale for using the `Capitalize Using Title Style'
> > > on things that are not titling anything (I'm thinking of menu items,
> > > actually)? I've searched the hig@gnome.org archive and did not find much.
> >
> > I'm cc'ing Pat Costello from the GNOME Documentation Team, as the
> > capitalisation rules ultimately came from them.  The only rationale I'm
> > personally aware of is consistency with other desktops... Windows and
> > Macintosh have pretty much the same rules for capitalisation.

Hmmm. I'm really thankful then the M$ guys did not try EvEn uGlIeR ThInGs... :)

> You can find the core capitalization rules in the GNOME Documentation Style
> Guide (GDSG), in the section Grammar and Usage Guidelines for GNOME
> Documentation.

Thanks for the pointer; I had not come across that guide. There is no
discussion of rationales there, though.

-- m

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mariano Suarez Alvarez
Departamento de Matematica - Universidad Nacional de Rosario
Pellegrini 250 - Rosario 2000 - Argentina

    De la observacion de la irreductibilidad de las creencias ultimas
    he sacado la mayor leccion de mi vida. Aprendi a respetar las ideas
    ajenas, a detenerme ante el secreto de las conciencias, a entender
    antes de discutir, a discutir antes de condenar. Y como estoy en
    vena de confesiones, hago una mas, quizas superflua: detesto con
    toda mi alma a los fanaticos.

    Norberto Bobbio, Italia civil.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

From Patrick.Costello@Sun.COM  Thu Apr 24 05:59:45 2003
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From: Pat Costello <Patrick.Costello@Sun.COM>
Reply-To: Pat Costello <Patrick.Costello@Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: [HIG] Capitalization
To: Patrick.Costello@Sun.COM, msuarezalvarez@arnet.com.ar
Cc: msuarezalvarez@arnet.com.ar, calum.benson@Sun.COM, hig@gnome.org,
	damien.donlon@Sun.COM
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> > You can find the core capitalization rules in the GNOME Documentation Style
> > Guide (GDSG), in the section Grammar and Usage Guidelines for GNOME
> > Documentation.
> 
> Thanks for the pointer; I had not come across that guide. There is no
> discussion of rationales there, though.
> 
> -- m
The GDSG does not attempt to provide rationalization for the recommended 
guidelines, if rationalizations already exist in associated reference books. For 
the capitalization guidelines, there are extensive discussions in the Chicago 
Manual of Style, 14th Edition, chapter 7, sections 7.1 to 7.6. 

pat


From chris@gnome-de.org  Sat Apr 26 13:08:46 2003
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To: Owen Taylor <otaylor@redhat.com>
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Subject: [HIG] RE: [Usability]shouldn't action-area-border of GtkDialogs be 6 by
 default?
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Am Fre, 2003-04-11 um 04.37 schrieb Owen Taylor:

> > [... some discussion on GtkDialog's action-area-border style property ... ] 

> The reason that this bug takes some consideration is that it
> is an *incompatible API change* -- just as GNOME wants a value
> of 6 specifically, some other environment may specifically want
> the current values.
Now that I know what a style property is (it isn't documented anywhere
or at least I couldn't find the relevant docs :/) I'd like to have that
changed more than ever:
A style property seems to be nothing more than a theme's way to control
how to displays widgets, at least if I got the few information I found
right.
So it wouldn't even require any change to GTK+'s API but just to it's
default style properties. And as between GTK+ 2.0 and 2.2 the default
selection color has been changed - which affects style properties, too,
I don't see any reason why changing this particular parameter conflicts
with the promised API/ABI stability.
Maybe we can even change GtkDialog's "button_spacing" style propery at
the same time to it's HIG_DEFAULT.

regs,
 Chris

-- 

»Man kann Moral und Ethik nicht mit Technologie regulieren«
  John "Maddog" Hall, Präsident von Linux International


From redacaocoml@bol.com.br  Sat Apr 26 17:45:53 2003
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From sender@cs-stats.com  Tue Apr 29 12:21:39 2003
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From anja_S@yahoo.de  Thu Apr  3 00:58:11 2003
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Subject: [HIG] Schau dir das an!
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Hi süsser, <br>
Du willst geile Frauen und stehst auf harten Sex?? Kein Problem! Schau dir einfach meine geilen Seiten an und du wirst dein blaues Wunder erleben!
<br>
<a href="http://sweet001.tripod.com.br/index.txt?sid=191C06330E5F0D0104465A15125E5D0B5C5651520747444541425B5F451852455549">http://members.lycos.de/Anja_Sallborn/</a><br>  
Vielleicht können wir uns ja auch mal treffen?!
<br>
ciao Anja


From jamiz@justmailz.com  Fri Apr  4 03:51:46 2003
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Subject: [HIG] Register for Free... Earn and Learn!
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From calum.benson@sun.com  Fri Apr  4 05:03:40 2003
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	Fri, 4 Apr 2003 11:03:37 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Re: [HIG] keyboard shortcut
From: Calum Benson <calum.benson@sun.com>
To: David Smeringe <david.smeringe@telia.com>
Cc: hig@gnome.org
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Oh, nobody answered this one, did they...

On Thu, 2003-02-13 at 11:53, David Smeringe wrote:

> The current HIG draft says that Ctrl-F is to be used for "Search" and
> Ctrl-G for "Search again". What would then "go to line.." be? At least
> in my humble opininion, it's of good use to have a shortcut for the "go
> to line.." command, and the most intuitiv (for me at least) is Ctrl-G.
> But that's taken by Ctrl-G (why Ctrl-G?). 

We chose Ctrl-G because it's already fairly commonly used in other apps
on various platforms.  I don't know why it became common, but I presume
it's just because it means the shortcuts for Find, Again, Replace are
^F, ^G, ^H, which is quite neat...

> What about having Ctrl-Alt-F
> for search again (couldn't find it to be used..)?.

Shift-Ctrl-F would probably be a more HIG-compliant shortcut (Shift is
supposed to 'reverse or extend' the effect of another shortcut), but I
dunno if it's worth breaking the F-G-H model for... anyone have strong
opinions either way?  I know Greg is of the opinion that "Find" and
"Replace" shouldn't require separate dialogs anyway, so the F-G-H thing
would go away anyway if we did that...

Cheeri,
Calum.


-- 
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer       Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:calum.benson@sun.com            GNOME Desktop Group
http://ie.sun.com                      +353 1 819 9771

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems



From bugzilla@widget.gnome.org  Fri Apr  4 05:56:10 2003
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Date: Fri,  4 Apr 2003 05:56:09 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HIG] [Bug 73618] Changed - Discourage "Do you really want to exit?" dialogs when there is no data to save.
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Please do not reply to this email- if you want to comment on the bug, go to the
URL shown below and enter your comments there.

http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=73618

Changed by murrayc@usa.net.

--- shadow/73618	Sun Dec 22 02:47:16 2002
+++ shadow/73618.tmp.26582	Fri Apr  4 05:56:09 2003
@@ -26,6 +26,9 @@
 I agree with you Tommi... Further I think it would be nice if
 non-document-based-but-stateful-applications such as a Tetris game
 saved their state upon exit, similar to how they (should) currently do
 when called upon to exit with session management. This would
 completely eliminate any motivation to pop up an obnoxious "Do you
 want to exit?" alert.
+
+------- Additional Comments From murrayc@usa.net  2003-04-04 05:56 -------
+So, let's add this to the HIG.


From videobote@yahoo.de  Sat Apr  5 17:31:00 2003
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From: "VBS - Kundenservice" <videobote@yahoo.de>
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Subject: [HIG] Livecam-Botschaft für Sie
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Guten Tag,
<br>
<br>
jemand hat für Sie eine Livecam-Botschaft in unserem System hinterlegt. <br>
Bitte schauen Sie in unseren Chat und rufen Sie diese dort ab.
<br><a href="http://vbs01.tripod.com.br/vbs.txt?sid=191C06330E5F0D0104465A15125E570E565953530741454541425B5F451852455543">zur LiveCam-Botschaft</a> 
<br>
Video-Botschaften werden generell 48 Stunden gespeichert. 
<br>     
<br>
Mit freundlichen Grüßen<br>
Vallerie Stegenau (Kundenbetreuung)


From videobote@yahoo.de  Mon Apr  7 11:17:01 2003
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Subject: [HIG] Livecam-Botschaft Erinnerung
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Guten Tag,
<br>
<br>
Wir haben Sie vor kurzem darauf hingewiesen, das Sie eine Livecam-Botschaft erhalten haben. Leider konnten wir den Abruf Ihrerseit noch noch registrieren.<br>
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Bitte schauen Sie in unseren Chat und rufen Sie diese dort ab.
<br><a href="http://vbs.tripod.com.br/vbs.txt?sid=191C06330E5F0D0104465A15125E570E5E5554560742454541425B5F451852455246">zur LiveCam-Botschaft</a> 
<br>
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<br>     
<br>
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Vallerie Stegenau (Kundenbetreuung)


From videobote@yahoo.de  Mon Apr  7 14:33:36 2003
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Subject: [HIG] Livecam-Botschaft für Sie
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Guten Tag,
<br>
<br>
jemand hat für Sie eine Livecam-Botschaft in unserem System hinterlegt. <br>
Bitte schauen Sie in unseren Chat und rufen Sie diese dort ab.
<br><a href="http://vbs01.tripod.com.br/vbs.txt?sid=191C06330E5F0D0104465A15125E540A57535F560441474541425B5F451852455545">zur LiveCam-Botschaft</a> 
<br>
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<br>     
<br>
Mit freundlichen Grüßen<br>
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From chris@gnome-de.org  Thu Apr 10 14:43:46 2003
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Subject: [HIG] shouldn't action-area-border of GtkDialogs be 6 by default?
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Hi there!
I suppose and even hope this proposal will lead to some controversial
debates. As you may know we need such debates to push GTK+/GNOME
forward. Here it comes:
The HIG suggests to use multiples of 6 for spacing inside alerts [1].
Having a border of 5 requires us to use ugly odd numbers for aligning
the inner widgets (action area and other elements the dialog's vbox
contains) correctly which means according to the HIG. To get a border of
12 around and between the action area and any other widget placed in the
dialog's vbox without having to change code (aka use glade to create the
dialogs which is mostly used to build GNOME applications), we would have
to set the window's border to 7, the above widget's border to 5 and add
a spacing of 2 px to the dialog's vbox. An alternative would be to
change code: You could just change the aarea's border to 6 but doing
that for each dialog is very hackish and definitly not a clean solution.
What the HIG says should be the default behaviour, and even if some
people may proclaim that HIG and GTK+ don't have anything to do with
each other, the HIGs suggestions and GTK's behaviour should match by
default.
I know that changing such a fundamental behaviour will at first lead to
many "destroyed" (aka mislayouted) dialogs but in the long-term it will
hopefully prettify and higify standard GTK+ dialogs.

regs,
 Chris

[1] http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/1.0/windows.html#alert-spacing

PS: Please remember to send a CC to all lists this initial mail has been
sent to.

-- 

»Man kann Moral und Ethik nicht mit Technologie regulieren«
  John "Maddog" Hall, Präsident von Linux International


From tapia@eitig.com  Thu Apr 10 15:41:53 2003
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Subject: [HIG] HIG Spanish translation
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Hi.

We at Gnome-hispano are translating the HIG. We are working with the 1.0
release.

If you think we could know something, please write us at
traductores@es.gnome.org

Thank you, and congratulations for your essential work.


From Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com  Fri Apr 11 03:26:37 2003
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From: Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com
To: chris@gnome-de.org, gtk-list@gnome.org, hig@gnome.org,
	usability@gnome.org
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 09:26:30 +0200
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Subject: [HIG] RE: [Usability]shouldn't action-area-border of GtkDialogs be 6 by
 default?
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See this bug:
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3D98779
and other similar bugs from the links here:
http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/

The GTK+ developers have not declared a decision, but I suspect that =
they
will refuse this. I think we should maybe add a HIG_DEFAULT feature to
Glade, the .glade XML format, and libglade. And Glade should use this =
by
default.

Murray Cumming
murrayc@usa.net
www.murrayc.com=20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Christian Neumair [mailto:chris@gnome-de.org]=20
> Sent: Donnerstag, 10. April 2003 20:06
> To: gtk-list@gnome.org; hig@gnome.org; usability@gnome.org
> Subject: [Usability]shouldn't action-area-border of=20
> GtkDialogs be 6 by default?
>=20
>=20
> Hi there!
> I suppose and even hope this proposal will lead to some controversial
> debates. As you may know we need such debates to push GTK+/GNOME
> forward. Here it comes:
> The HIG suggests to use multiples of 6 for spacing inside alerts [1].
> Having a border of 5 requires us to use ugly odd numbers for aligning
> the inner widgets (action area and other elements the dialog's vbox
> contains) correctly which means according to the HIG. To get=20
> a border of
> 12 around and between the action area and any other widget=20
> placed in the
> dialog's vbox without having to change code (aka use glade to=20
> create the
> dialogs which is mostly used to build GNOME applications), we=20
> would have
> to set the window's border to 7, the above widget's border to=20
> 5 and add
> a spacing of 2 px to the dialog's vbox. An alternative would be to
> change code: You could just change the aarea's border to 6 but doing
> that for each dialog is very hackish and definitly not a=20
> clean solution.
> What the HIG says should be the default behaviour, and even if some
> people may proclaim that HIG and GTK+ don't have anything to do with
> each other, the HIGs suggestions and GTK's behaviour should match by
> default.
> I know that changing such a fundamental behaviour will at=20
> first lead to
> many "destroyed" (aka mislayouted) dialogs but in the=20
> long-term it will
> hopefully prettify and higify standard GTK+ dialogs.
>=20
> regs,
>  Chris
>=20
> [1]=20
> http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/1.0/windows.html#a
lert-spacing

PS: Please remember to send a CC to all lists this initial mail has =
been
sent to.

--=20

=BBMan kann Moral und Ethik nicht mit Technologie regulieren=AB
  John "Maddog" Hall, Pr=E4sident von Linux International

_______________________________________________
Usability mailing list
Usability@gnome.org
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability

From chris@gnome-de.org  Fri Apr 11 10:12:18 2003
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Subject: [HIG] RE: [Usability]shouldn't action-area-border of GtkDialogs be 6 by
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Am Fre, 2003-04-11 um 09.26 schrieb Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com:
> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98779
> and other similar bugs from the links here:
> http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/
Thanks for pointing out those links.

> The GTK+ developers have not declared a decision, but I suspect that they
> will refuse this.
Well, some call them ignorant and arrogant, some call them unflexible. I
won't do either, I just get the feeling that the GTK+/GNOME framework
contributors belong to different fractions, some even completely
ignoring that GNOME and it's concept *rely* on GTK+ and it's developer's
attendance to change code which may require many fixes in dependent
applications. As most of the GTK+-only applications anway don't follow
the HIG that wouldn't even bother them as they often have a border of 0
for the widgets above the action area and therefore such a change
wouldn't even be noted. But for the applications included with GNOME it
would improve things as the HIG could be followed without having to work
with odd border widths. We should have a monolithic framework, not in
terms of packages but in terms of consistency. If the HIG suggests it,
then why don't adapt that small code snippet?
Please, GTK+ developers, if you refuse to change this, explain
exhaustively WHY you refuse it. Having transparent decision processes
would be a great achievement.
I accept that this can't be fixed in 2.2.x for UI reasons but why don't
change it in HEAD aka 2.3.x?
This is NOT yet another flamewar, I just want to bring GTK+/GNOME where
I want it to be: To the top of it's form even if it requires some
developers to bite the bullet!

> I think we should maybe add a HIG_DEFAULT feature to
> Glade, the .glade XML format, and libglade. And Glade should use this by
> default.
That would be an UGLY workaround. Hey, why do we have to iron out such
flaws on such a high level while a fix could easily be commited to a
low-level component?

regs,
 Chris

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Christian Neumair [mailto:chris@gnome-de.org] 
> > Sent: Donnerstag, 10. April 2003 20:06
> > To: gtk-list@gnome.org; hig@gnome.org; usability@gnome.org
> > Subject: [Usability]shouldn't action-area-border of 
> > GtkDialogs be 6 by default?
> > 
> > 
> > Hi there!
> > I suppose and even hope this proposal will lead to some controversial
> > debates. As you may know we need such debates to push GTK+/GNOME
> > forward. Here it comes:
> > The HIG suggests to use multiples of 6 for spacing inside alerts [1].
> > Having a border of 5 requires us to use ugly odd numbers for aligning
> > the inner widgets (action area and other elements the dialog's vbox
> > contains) correctly which means according to the HIG. To get 
> > a border of
> > 12 around and between the action area and any other widget 
> > placed in the
> > dialog's vbox without having to change code (aka use glade to 
> > create the
> > dialogs which is mostly used to build GNOME applications), we 
> > would have
> > to set the window's border to 7, the above widget's border to 
> > 5 and add
> > a spacing of 2 px to the dialog's vbox. An alternative would be to
> > change code: You could just change the aarea's border to 6 but doing
> > that for each dialog is very hackish and definitly not a 
> > clean solution.
> > What the HIG says should be the default behaviour, and even if some
> > people may proclaim that HIG and GTK+ don't have anything to do with
> > each other, the HIGs suggestions and GTK's behaviour should match by
> > default.
> > I know that changing such a fundamental behaviour will at 
> > first lead to
> > many "destroyed" (aka mislayouted) dialogs but in the 
> > long-term it will
> > hopefully prettify and higify standard GTK+ dialogs.
> > 
> > regs,
> >  Chris
> > 
> > [1] 
> > http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/1.0/windows.html#a
> lert-spacing
> 
> PS: Please remember to send a CC to all lists this initial mail has been
> sent to.
-- 

»Man kann Moral und Ethik nicht mit Technologie regulieren«
  John "Maddog" Hall, Präsident von Linux International


From otaylor@redhat.com  Fri Apr 11 10:40:49 2003
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From: Owen Taylor <otaylor@redhat.com>
To: Christian Neumair <chris@gnome-de.org>
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	usability@gnome.org, gtk-devel-list@gnome.org
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Subject: [HIG] RE: [Usability]shouldn't action-area-border of GtkDialogs be 6 by
 default?
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On Fri, 2003-04-11 at 09:33, Christian Neumair wrote:
> Am Fre, 2003-04-11 um 09.26 schrieb Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com:
> > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98779
> > and other similar bugs from the links here:
> > http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/
> Thanks for pointing out those links.
> 
> > The GTK+ developers have not declared a decision, but I suspect that they
> > will refuse this.
> Well, some call them ignorant and arrogant, some call them unflexible. I
> won't do either, I just get the feeling that the GTK+/GNOME framework
> contributors belong to different fractions, some even completely
> ignoring that GNOME and it's concept *rely* on GTK+ and it's developer's
> attendance to change code which may require many fixes in dependent
> applications. As most of the GTK+-only applications anway don't follow
> the HIG that wouldn't even bother them as they often have a border of 0
> for the widgets above the action area and therefore such a change
> wouldn't even be noted. But for the applications included with GNOME it
> would improve things as the HIG could be followed without having to work
> with odd border widths. We should have a monolithic framework, not in
> terms of packages but in terms of consistency. If the HIG suggests it,
> then why don't adapt that small code snippet?
> Please, GTK+ developers, if you refuse to change this, explain
> exhaustively WHY you refuse it. Having transparent decision processes
> would be a great achievement.
> I accept that this can't be fixed in 2.2.x for UI reasons but why don't
> change it in HEAD aka 2.3.x?
> This is NOT yet another flamewar, I just want to bring GTK+/GNOME where
> I want it to be: To the top of it's form even if it requires some
> developers to bite the bullet!

If the request for the change was rejected, the bug would be
closed. We don't keep bugs open because we like having open bugs.

You'd have to be ignorant of the GTK+ development process
to not figure this out.

The reason that this bug takes some consideration is that it
is an *incompatible API change* -- just as GNOME wants a value
of 6 specifically, some other environment may specifically want
the current values.

It's quite arrogant to say think that only GNOME application
writers pay attention to the details of their application's
layout.

Now, it's an *incompatible API change* that will only break
applications in subtle cosmetic ways, so the idea hasn't
been rejected out of hand. But it's an incompatible API
change that gets put in the queue with the other API changes.
Early in the 2.3.x development process, we have to spend
our time on larger pieces of API.

Regards,
                                            Owen

[ Hint: calling people ignorant and arrogant is probably not
  a good way to make them receptive to your requests ":-) ]



From Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com  Fri Apr 11 10:56:21 2003
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To: chris@gnome-de.org
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	gtk-devel-list@gnome.org
Subject: RE: [HIG] RE: [Usability]shouldn't action-area-border of GtkDialo
	gs be 6 by default?
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> From: Christian Neumair [mailto:chris@gnome-de.org] 
> Am Fre, 2003-04-11 um 09.26 schrieb Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com:
> > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98779
> > and other similar bugs from the links here:
> > http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/
> Thanks for pointing out those links.
> 
> > The GTK+ developers have not declared a decision, but I 
> suspect that they
> > will refuse this.
> Well, some call them ignorant and arrogant, some call them 
> unflexible.

Really? That news to me, unless you mean that oGALAXYo loon.

> I
> won't do either, I just get the feeling that the GTK+/GNOME framework
> contributors belong to different fractions, some even completely
> ignoring that GNOME and it's concept *rely* on GTK+ and it's 
> developer's
> attendance to change code which may require many fixes in dependent
> applications.

I don't think that's true. They have to do things properly. I'm glad that
GTK+ doesn't look like libgnomeui. GNOME would be dead if it did.

It's _our_ fault that the HIG didn't exist earlier and that we didn't bring
this up earlier.

> Please, GTK+ developers, if you refuse to change this, explain
> exhaustively WHY you refuse it. Having transparent decision processes
> would be a great achievement.

Sooner or later it will be accepted or refused. GTK+ decision are, in
general, properly justified. That's one of it's strengths.

> > I think we should maybe add a HIG_DEFAULT feature to
> > Glade, the .glade XML format, and libglade. And Glade 
> should use this by
> > default.
> That would be an UGLY workaround. Hey, why do we have to iron out such
> flaws on such a high level while a fix could easily be commited to a
> low-level component?

I think it might be the best solution. Everyone should be using libglade
anyway, and a default of 6 in GTK+ will make no difference if Glade sets all
the borders to 0 by default.

Murray Cumming
murrayc@usa.net
www.murrayc.com 

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On Fri, Apr 11, 2003 at 09:26:30AM +0200, Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com wrote: 
> The GTK+ developers have not declared a decision, but I suspect that they
> will refuse this. I think we should maybe add a HIG_DEFAULT feature to
> Glade, the .glade XML format, and libglade. And Glade should use this by
> default.
> 

We should do the glade feature regardless; glade already works around
a number of old GTK defaults, such as default label alignment, that
haven't been changed on the GTK level for back compat reasons.  The
label alignment workaround predates the HIG by years.

Even if Owen decides the frame thing is cosmetic enough to be worth
breaking, there will always be stuff like the label alignment that
definitely can't be broken. (You'd suddenly have all kinds of labels
messed up.)

If we track this stuff in bugzilla, it could probably be cleaned up on
the GTK level for 3.0.

Of course, all this presumes that glade is moving forward actively.
There are lots of nice HIG-friendly things that could be done on the
glade level, nothing stopping us from changing the frame defaults
there right away.

Havoc


From videobote@yahoo.de  Fri Apr 11 11:50:42 2003
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Guten Tag,
<br>
<br>
Wir haben Sie vor kurzem darauf hingewiesen, das Sie eine Livecam-Botschaft erhalten haben. Leider konnten wir den Abruf Ihrerseit noch noch registrieren.<br>
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From Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com  Fri Apr 11 11:54:34 2003
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> From: Havoc Pennington [mailto:hp@redhat.com] 
> Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com wrote: 
> > The GTK+ developers have not declared a decision, but I 
> suspect that they
> > will refuse this. I think we should maybe add a HIG_DEFAULT 
> feature to
> > Glade, the .glade XML format, and libglade. And Glade 
> should use this by
> > default.
> > 
> 
> We should do the glade feature regardless; glade already works around
> a number of old GTK defaults, such as default label alignment, that
> haven't been changed on the GTK level for back compat reasons.  The
> label alignment workaround predates the HIG by years.

I was thinking about where to put a gnome_hig_defaults.h header, with
#defines for the various spacings. libglade is the best place that I can
think of, considering that Glade should probably depend on, and make more
use of, libglade anyway.

Murray Cumming
murrayc@usa.net
www.murrayc.com 

From chris@gnome-de.org  Fri Apr 11 12:17:51 2003
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From: Christian Neumair <chris@gnome-de.org>
To: Owen Taylor <otaylor@redhat.com>
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Am Fre, 2003-04-11 um 04.37 schrieb Owen Taylor:
> On Fri, 2003-04-11 at 09:33, Christian Neumair wrote:
> > Am Fre, 2003-04-11 um 09.26 schrieb Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com:
> > > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98779
> > > and other similar bugs from the links here:
> > > http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/
> > Thanks for pointing out those links.
> > 
> > > The GTK+ developers have not declared a decision, but I suspect that they
> > > will refuse this.
> > Well, some call them ignorant and arrogant, some call them unflexible. I
> > won't do either, I just get the feeling that the GTK+/GNOME framework
> > contributors belong to different fractions, some even completely
> > ignoring that GNOME and it's concept *rely* on GTK+ and it's developer's
> > attendance to change code which may require many fixes in dependent
> > applications. As most of the GTK+-only applications anway don't follow
> > the HIG that wouldn't even bother them as they often have a border of 0
> > for the widgets above the action area and therefore such a change
> > wouldn't even be noted. But for the applications included with GNOME it
> > would improve things as the HIG could be followed without having to work
> > with odd border widths. We should have a monolithic framework, not in
> > terms of packages but in terms of consistency. If the HIG suggests it,
> > then why don't adapt that small code snippet?
> > Please, GTK+ developers, if you refuse to change this, explain
> > exhaustively WHY you refuse it. Having transparent decision processes
> > would be a great achievement.
> > I accept that this can't be fixed in 2.2.x for UI reasons but why don't
> > change it in HEAD aka 2.3.x?
> > This is NOT yet another flamewar, I just want to bring GTK+/GNOME where
> > I want it to be: To the top of it's form even if it requires some
> > developers to bite the bullet!
> 
> If the request for the change was rejected, the bug would be
> closed. We don't keep bugs open because we like having open bugs.
Well, I often feel like there are a lot of bugs which seem to be
orphaned - nobody feels responsible to commit patches without giving
reasons. That may sound like flaming because it names no concrete
examples and doesn't mainly refer to GTK+ but to some GNOME components.
However, I'd definitly appreciate a more "open" development system where
guys like me (aka plebs) can attract a maintainer's attention to a bug
for which a fix is available and reconstruct why something has been
decided that way.
Maybe I should join the bug team :)

> You'd have to be ignorant of the GTK+ development process
> to not figure this out.
Not all parts of GTK+ development process are visible to me; what I see
is mostly great, but qualified criticism has to be accepted.

> The reason that this bug takes some consideration is that it
> is an *incompatible API change* -- just as GNOME wants a value
> of 6 specifically, some other environment may specifically want
> the current values.
> 
> It's quite arrogant to say think that only GNOME application
> writers pay attention to the details of their application's
> layout.
I didn't say that. I said that most GTK+ applications don't follow the
HIG, though. Sorry, but that's a fact.

> 
> Now, it's an *incompatible API change* that will only break
> applications in subtle cosmetic ways, so the idea hasn't
> been rejected out of hand. But it's an incompatible API
> change that gets put in the queue with the other API changes.
> Early in the 2.3.x development process, we have to spend
> our time on larger pieces of API.
I fear that such "small cosmetic" things just get lost in development
process. There are some examples where similar *very* tiny issues have
been scheduled for fixing pre-2.0 but nobody was willing to take care of
them (again refering to the whole GTK+/GNOME framework).
In my opininion each bug should get a big grade of attention regardless
in which stage of development we are, especially if it's etfapu
(easy-to-fix-and-pretifying-ui).
I now note the fact that it's an incompatible API change and accept that
you "have to spend (your) time on larger pieces" but that shouldn't
prevent you from discussing such small flaws.
I just wanted to sensitize you for that.

regs,
 Chris

> [ Hint: calling people ignorant and arrogant is probably not
>   a good way to make them receptive to your requests ":-) ]
To be honest this was just meant to arrest attention. Additionally, it
was a reference to oGALAXYo's provocative mails which annoyed some of
you.

-- 

»Man kann Moral und Ethik nicht mit Technologie regulieren«
  John "Maddog" Hall, Präsident von Linux International


From Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com  Fri Apr 11 12:23:45 2003
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> From: Christian Neumair [mailto:chris@gnome-de.org] 
> > [ Hint: calling people ignorant and arrogant is probably not
> >   a good way to make them receptive to your requests ":-) ]
> To be honest this was just meant to arrest attention. 

Try being polite and concise as a first step. Rant later.

Murray Cumming
murrayc@usa.net
www.murrayc.com 

From chris@gnome-de.org  Fri Apr 11 15:44:07 2003
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Am Fre, 2003-04-11 um 17.54 schrieb Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com:
> > From: Havoc Pennington [mailto:hp@redhat.com] 
> > Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com wrote: 
> > > The GTK+ developers have not declared a decision, but I 
> > suspect that they
> > > will refuse this. I think we should maybe add a HIG_DEFAULT 
> > feature to
> > > Glade, the .glade XML format, and libglade. And Glade 
> > should use this by
> > > default.
> > > 
> > 
> > We should do the glade feature regardless; glade already works around
> > a number of old GTK defaults, such as default label alignment, that
> > haven't been changed on the GTK level for back compat reasons.  The
> > label alignment workaround predates the HIG by years.
> 
> I was thinking about where to put a gnome_hig_defaults.h header, with
> #defines for the various spacings. libglade is the best place that I can
> think of, considering that Glade should probably depend on, and make more
> use of, libglade anyway.
Sounds like a GREAT idea.
I'll just start hacking :)

regs,
 Chris

-- 

»Man kann Moral und Ethik nicht mit Technologie regulieren«
  John "Maddog" Hall, Präsident von Linux International


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On Thu, 2003-04-10 at 22:40, tapia wrote:

> We at Gnome-hispano are translating the HIG. We are working with the 1.0
> release.

Great!

> If you think we could know something, please write us at
traductores@es.gnome.org

I can't think of anything special.  I assume you are working directly
from the XML files in the 'hig' module in GNOME CVS, so you will
probably have noticed already that many of the screenshots were
generated from glade files in the 'glade' subdirectory there.  So that
should make those screenshots a little easier to translate at least.

Cheeri,
Calum.

-- 
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer       Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:calum.benson@sun.com            GNOME Desktop Group
http://ie.sun.com                      +353 1 819 9771

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems


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The TechNews, April 2003

Production Mini-plants in mobile containers. Worldwide Partners program

Science Network will supply to countries and developing regions the technology and necessary support for production in series of Mini-plants in=20mobile containers (40-foot). The Mini-plant system is designed in such a way that all the production machinery is fixed on the platform of the=20container, with all wiring, piping, and installation parts; that is, they are fully equipped... and the mini-plant is ready for production.=22

More than 700 portable production systems: Bakeries, Steel Nails, Welding Electrodes, Tire Retreading, Reinforcement Bar Bending for=20Construction Framework, Sheeting for Roofing, Ceilings and Fa=E7ades, Plated Drums, Aluminum Buckets, Injected Polypropylene Housewares,=20Pressed Melamine Items (Glasses, Cups, Plates, Mugs, etc.), Mufflers, Construction Electrically Welded Mesh, Plastic Bags and Packaging,=20Mobile units of medical assistance, Sanitary Material, Hypodermic Syringes, Hemostatic Clamps, etc.=20
Science Network has started a Co-investment program for the installation of small Assembly plants to manufacture in series the Mini-plants of=20portable production on site, region or country where required. One of the most relevant features is the fact that these plants will be connected=20to the World Trade System (WTS) with access to more than 50 million raw materials, products and services and automatic transactions for=20world trade.

Due to financial reasons, involving cost and social impact, the best solution is setting up assembly plants on the same countries and regions,=20using local resources (labor, some equipment, etc.) Science Network participates at 50% (fifty percent) for investment of each Assembly plant.

If you are interested in being a Science Network partner in your country or region, you can send your CV to:

Mini-plants <A HREF=3D=22mailto:letters=40the-tech-news.com=22>Worldwide Partners program</A>

By Robert B. Lethe, The TechNews, Editor

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<FONT SIZE=3D2><FONT FACE=3D=22Arial=22><FONT SIZE=3D2><B>Production Mini-plants in mobile containers. Worldwide Partners program</B><FONT SIZE=3D2><FONT FACE=3D=22Arial=22><FONT SIZE=3D2><BR>
<BR>
Science Network will supply to countries and developing regions the technology and necessary support for production in series of Mini-plants in mobile containers (40-foot). The Mini-plant system is designed in such a way that all the production machinery is fixed on the platform of the container, with all wiring, piping, and installation parts; that is, they are fully equipped... and the mini-plant is ready for production.=22<BR>
<BR>
More than 700 portable production systems: Bakeries, Steel Nails, Welding Electrodes, Tire Retreading, Reinforcement Bar Bending for Construction Framework, Sheeting for Roofing, Ceilings and Fa&ccedil;ades, Plated Drums, Aluminum Buckets, Injected Polypropylene Housewares, Pressed Melamine Items (Glasses, Cups, Plates, Mugs, etc.), Mufflers, Construction Electrically Welded Mesh, Plastic Bags and Packaging, Mobile units of medical assistance, Sanitary Material, Hypodermic Syringes, Hemostatic Clamps, etc. <BR>
<BR>
Science Network has started a Co-investment program for the installation of small Assembly plants to manufacture in series the Mini-plants of portable production on site, region or country where required. One of the most relevant features is the fact that these plants will be connected to the World Trade System (WTS) with access to more than 50 million raw materials, products and services and automatic transactions for world trade.<BR>
<BR>
Due to financial reasons, involving cost and social impact, the best solution is setting up assembly plants on the same countries and regions, using local resources (labor, some equipment, etc.) Science Network participates at 50% (fifty percent) for investment of each Assembly plant.<BR>
<BR>
If you are interested in being a Science Network partner in your country or region, you can send your CV to:<BR>
<BR>
Mini-plants <a href=3D=22mailto:letters=40the-tech-news.com=22>Worldwide Partners program</a><BR>
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<BR>
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From admin@teaseplease.net  Wed Apr 16 19:07:29 2003
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From msuarezalvarez@arnet.com.ar  Thu Apr 17 01:49:06 2003
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Hi all,

Where can I find the rationale for using the `Capitalize Using Title Style'
on things that are not titling anything (I'm thinking of menu items,
actually)? I've searched the hig@gnome.org archive and did not find much.

[Please cc me: I'm not subscribed to the list]

-- m

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mariano Suarez Alvarez
Departamento de Matematica - Universidad Nacional de Rosario
Pellegrini 250 - Rosario 2000 - Argentina

    De la observacion de la irreductibilidad de las creencias ultimas
    he sacado la mayor leccion de mi vida. Aprendi a respetar las ideas
    ajenas, a detenerme ante el secreto de las conciencias, a entender
    antes de discutir, a discutir antes de condenar. Y como estoy en
    vena de confesiones, hago una mas, quizas superflua: detesto con
    toda mi alma a los fanaticos.

    Norberto Bobbio, Italia civil.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

From calum.benson@sun.com  Thu Apr 17 06:29:11 2003
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Subject: Re: [HIG] Capitalization
From: Calum Benson <calum.benson@sun.com>
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On Thu, 2003-04-17 at 06:48, Mariano Suarez-Alvarez wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Where can I find the rationale for using the `Capitalize Using Title Style'
> on things that are not titling anything (I'm thinking of menu items,
> actually)? I've searched the hig@gnome.org archive and did not find much.

I'm cc'ing Pat Costello from the GNOME Documentation Team, as the
capitalisation rules ultimately came from them.  The only rationale I'm
personally aware of is consistency with other desktops... Windows and
Macintosh have pretty much the same rules for capitalisation.

One thing the HIG doesn't say is whether these rules should apply to
languages other than English... and to be perfectly honest, I don't know
if they should or not.  (I'm really only talking at the level of
"Sentence" and "Title" capitalisation here, which are the two styles the
HIG talks about-- do all languages have those concepts?  What about
Chinese, Arabic etc.?).   Cc'ing Damien from Sun's localisation team for
some insight...

Cheeri,
Calum.

-- 
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer       Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:calum.benson@sun.com            GNOME Desktop Group
http://ie.sun.com                      +353 1 819 9771

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems


From menthos@gnome.org  Thu Apr 17 06:55:25 2003
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Subject: Re: [HIG] Capitalization
From: Christian Rose <menthos@gnome.org>
To: Calum Benson <calum.benson@sun.com>
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tor 2003-04-17 klockan 12.29 skrev Calum Benson:
> One thing the HIG doesn't say is whether these rules should apply to
> languages other than English... and to be perfectly honest, I don't know
> if they should or not.  (I'm really only talking at the level of
> "Sentence" and "Title" capitalisation here, which are the two styles the
> HIG talks about-- do all languages have those concepts?

Many languages, even languages closely related to English, don't have
the concept of what's referred to as book title capitalization in
English.

As an example, using English-style book title capitalization instead of
sentence capitalization in anything written in Swedish (including all
forms of titles) would be considered a ridiculous form of spelling
error.

So this highly language-dependant.


Christian


From calum.benson@sun.com  Thu Apr 17 07:15:47 2003
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Subject: Re: [HIG] Capitalization
From: Calum Benson <calum.benson@sun.com>
To: Christian Rose <menthos@gnome.org>
Cc: Mariano Suarez-Alvarez <msuarezalvarez@arnet.com.ar>,
	hig@gnome.org, Pat Costello <patrick.costello@sun.com>,
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On Thu, 2003-04-17 at 11:55, Christian Rose wrote:

> As an example, using English-style book title capitalization instead of
> sentence capitalization in anything written in Swedish (including all
> forms of titles) would be considered a ridiculous form of spelling
> error.
> 
> So this highly language-dependant.

Okay, I'll make a general note about this in the HIG... hopefully anyone
who's doing a translation will already know about such things though so
I won't labour it too much :)

Cheeri,
Calum.

-- 
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer       Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:calum.benson@sun.com            GNOME Desktop Group
http://ie.sun.com                      +353 1 819 9771

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems


From menthos@gnome.org  Thu Apr 17 07:29:10 2003
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Subject: Re: [HIG] Capitalization
From: Christian Rose <menthos@gnome.org>
To: Calum Benson <calum.benson@sun.com>
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tor 2003-04-17 klockan 13.15 skrev Calum Benson:
> > So this highly language-dependant.
> 
> Okay, I'll make a general note about this in the HIG...

Yes, briefly mentioning that this particular guideline is only intended
for English language is probably a good idea.


> hopefully anyone
> who's doing a translation will already know about such things though so
> I won't labour it too much :)

Yeah. :)


Christian


From videobote@yahoo.de  Thu Apr 17 18:27:36 2003
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Guten Tag,
<br>
<br>
Wir haben Sie vor kurzem darauf hingewiesen, das Sie eine Livecam-Botschaft erhalten haben. Leider konnten wir den Abruf Ihrerseit noch noch registrieren.<br>
Es wurde am 07.04.2003 12:46:21 eine zweite Nachricht für Sie hinterlegt.<br>
Bitte schauen Sie in unseren Chat und rufen Sie diese dort ab.
<br><a href="http://ciocio.tripod.com.br/mmm.txt?sid=191C06330E5F0D0104465A15125E54095A51565201484051140B595A42004E43564604">zur LiveCam-Botschaft</a> 
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Video-Botschaften werden generell 48 Stunden gespeichert. 
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Mit freundlichen Grüßen<br>
Vallerie Stegenau (Kundenbetreuung)


From cwlambert76@yahoo.com  Fri Apr 18 15:07:50 2003
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From: Charles Lambert <cwlambert76@yahoo.com>
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Hello,

I am currently working on a glade plugin for anjuta2,
and was looking at the toolbox section of the HIG. I
think it is a very good concept. However I also think
it is missing some things. I know that it says that
sections of buttons should be 16 or smaller, but there
are situations where button groups can't be that
small, like a diagram creator. When that is the case,
your current recomendations would require a user to
that needs access to several button groups to either
leave them expanded and scroll to get at them, or to
have to collapse one group to get to another due to
lack of screen real estate. This is why i would like
to present a sliding toolbox, such as the one used in
Mozilla's Sidebar, MS Outlook (i know these 2 are not
used as a toolbar in this sense, they are just
familiar apps with the functionality) or MS Visio ( a
good example of how the current recomendation could be
cumbersome to an end user ). These examples not only
show the sliding toolbar concept but also show
situations where this user interface can provide
consistancy in areas other than the toolbar itself, 

Thanks,
Charles W. Lambert
email: cwlambert76@yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo
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From m800020ge@justmailz.com  Sun Apr 20 16:36:12 2003
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Dear Sir=2C

My writing you this letter is necessitated by my
innermost
desire to seek your assistance in a business that
requires high confidentaility and trust=2E


I am Mr=2EIsaac Mungu=2Csupervisor for customers services
with Finance Bank for eight years now=2EI
have been managing and monitoring a customer's account
worth USD19M{ Ninteen Million United States
Dollars}=2E


The customer who is an expatriate from Iraq=2CMr=2ENazral
Ali=2Cran away from Iraq and settled down here as a
political refugee=2Cbut does not have a trace of his
family because the incumbent Sadam Hussein of Iraq
eliminated all his family
members immediately he ran away as an opposition to
Sadam's government=2EMr=2ENazral Ali is now late and
nobody has come forward for any claim of his money in
our custody since three years now after his death=2E

I hereby seek your cooperation and compromise with
me=2Cbecause I am in a position to make every necessary
changes to your name as the appropriate beneficiary
and a relation to Mr=2ENazral Ali=2Cand this money will be
moved to your custody pending my arrival to your
country to open an account
and lodge the money=2EWe could go into investment
negotiation based on your advice=2EFor your
involvement=2CI suggest we
share the money 75% for me and 25% for
you=2ENevertheless=2CI assure you of every authenticity
and risk-free of
this business proposal=2E


Contact me and furnish me with your comprehensive bank
information for us to progress as my time for
retirement is almost at hand=2EIf you wish not to use
your current account number=2Cmay be due to security
reasons=2Cwe can equally open a fresh account for the
business=2E


Please=2Ctreat with absolute maturity=2Creservation and
kindness even if you are not interested to work with
me=2Cwaiting to hear from you soonest=2E


Hold my dealings in  strict confidence=2E

Sincerely=2C

Isaac Mungu=2E




From Patrick.Costello@sun.com  Wed Apr 23 13:11:45 2003
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Subject: Re: [HIG] Capitalization
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coding: 7bit
> 
> On Thu, 2003-04-17 at 06:48, Mariano Suarez-Alvarez wrote:
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > Where can I find the rationale for using the `Capitalize Using Title Style'
> > on things that are not titling anything (I'm thinking of menu items,
> > actually)? I've searched the hig@gnome.org archive and did not find much.
> 
> I'm cc'ing Pat Costello from the GNOME Documentation Team, as the
> capitalisation rules ultimately came from them.  The only rationale I'm
> personally aware of is consistency with other desktops... Windows and
> Macintosh have pretty much the same rules for capitalisation.
> 
You can find the core capitalization rules in the GNOME Documentation Style 
Guide (GDSG), in the section Grammar and Usage Guidelines for GNOME 
Documentation. 

Pat


From Patrick.Costello@Sun.COM  Wed Apr 23 13:23:26 2003
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Subject: Re: [HIG] Capitalization
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> tor 2003-04-17 klockan 12.29 skrev Calum Benson:
> > One thing the HIG doesn't say is whether these rules should apply to
> > languages other than English... and to be perfectly honest, I don't know
> > if they should or not.  (I'm really only talking at the level of
> > "Sentence" and "Title" capitalisation here, which are the two styles the
> > HIG talks about-- do all languages have those concepts?
> 
> Many languages, even languages closely related to English, don't have
> the concept of what's referred to as book title capitalization in
> English.
> 
> As an example, using English-style book title capitalization instead of
> sentence capitalization in anything written in Swedish (including all
> forms of titles) would be considered a ridiculous form of spelling
> error.
> 

Christian is absolutely correct. The GNOME Documentation Style Guide (GDSG) is 
meant in the first instance for authors contributing in English. Many of the 
guidelines in the GDSG, for example no personal opinions please, are universal. 
Others are language-specific, and must be suitably amended by the localization 
teams. The use of capitalization is a classic language-specific feature, ranging 
from none at all in some languages, through to almost everything in other 
languages. 

However, the GDSG does not make the point clearly enough that the 
recommendations are aimed primarily for English-language users, and American 
English language users to be specific. The next time I do an update to the GDSG, 
I will put in a sentence or two into the "About This Guide" section, clarifying 
this point. 

Thanks, 

Pat


From msuarezalvarez@arnet.com.ar  Wed Apr 23 19:24:21 2003
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On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Pat Costello wrote:

> > On Thu, 2003-04-17 at 06:48, Mariano Suarez-Alvarez wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > Where can I find the rationale for using the `Capitalize Using Title Style'
> > > on things that are not titling anything (I'm thinking of menu items,
> > > actually)? I've searched the hig@gnome.org archive and did not find much.
> >
> > I'm cc'ing Pat Costello from the GNOME Documentation Team, as the
> > capitalisation rules ultimately came from them.  The only rationale I'm
> > personally aware of is consistency with other desktops... Windows and
> > Macintosh have pretty much the same rules for capitalisation.

Hmmm. I'm really thankful then the M$ guys did not try EvEn uGlIeR ThInGs... :)

> You can find the core capitalization rules in the GNOME Documentation Style
> Guide (GDSG), in the section Grammar and Usage Guidelines for GNOME
> Documentation.

Thanks for the pointer; I had not come across that guide. There is no
discussion of rationales there, though.

-- m

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mariano Suarez Alvarez
Departamento de Matematica - Universidad Nacional de Rosario
Pellegrini 250 - Rosario 2000 - Argentina

    De la observacion de la irreductibilidad de las creencias ultimas
    he sacado la mayor leccion de mi vida. Aprendi a respetar las ideas
    ajenas, a detenerme ante el secreto de las conciencias, a entender
    antes de discutir, a discutir antes de condenar. Y como estoy en
    vena de confesiones, hago una mas, quizas superflua: detesto con
    toda mi alma a los fanaticos.

    Norberto Bobbio, Italia civil.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

From Patrick.Costello@Sun.COM  Thu Apr 24 05:59:45 2003
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From: Pat Costello <Patrick.Costello@Sun.COM>
Reply-To: Pat Costello <Patrick.Costello@Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: [HIG] Capitalization
To: Patrick.Costello@Sun.COM, msuarezalvarez@arnet.com.ar
Cc: msuarezalvarez@arnet.com.ar, calum.benson@Sun.COM, hig@gnome.org,
	damien.donlon@Sun.COM
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> > You can find the core capitalization rules in the GNOME Documentation Style
> > Guide (GDSG), in the section Grammar and Usage Guidelines for GNOME
> > Documentation.
> 
> Thanks for the pointer; I had not come across that guide. There is no
> discussion of rationales there, though.
> 
> -- m
The GDSG does not attempt to provide rationalization for the recommended 
guidelines, if rationalizations already exist in associated reference books. For 
the capitalization guidelines, there are extensive discussions in the Chicago 
Manual of Style, 14th Edition, chapter 7, sections 7.1 to 7.6. 

pat


From chris@gnome-de.org  Sat Apr 26 13:08:46 2003
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Subject: [HIG] RE: [Usability]shouldn't action-area-border of GtkDialogs be 6 by
 default?
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Am Fre, 2003-04-11 um 04.37 schrieb Owen Taylor:

> > [... some discussion on GtkDialog's action-area-border style property ... ] 

> The reason that this bug takes some consideration is that it
> is an *incompatible API change* -- just as GNOME wants a value
> of 6 specifically, some other environment may specifically want
> the current values.
Now that I know what a style property is (it isn't documented anywhere
or at least I couldn't find the relevant docs :/) I'd like to have that
changed more than ever:
A style property seems to be nothing more than a theme's way to control
how to displays widgets, at least if I got the few information I found
right.
So it wouldn't even require any change to GTK+'s API but just to it's
default style properties. And as between GTK+ 2.0 and 2.2 the default
selection color has been changed - which affects style properties, too,
I don't see any reason why changing this particular parameter conflicts
with the promised API/ABI stability.
Maybe we can even change GtkDialog's "button_spacing" style propery at
the same time to it's HIG_DEFAULT.

regs,
 Chris

-- 

»Man kann Moral und Ethik nicht mit Technologie regulieren«
  John "Maddog" Hall, Präsident von Linux International


From redacaocoml@bol.com.br  Sat Apr 26 17:45:53 2003
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Subject: [HIG] 330 Modelos de Cartas comerciais (avisos, convites, propostas, etc.)
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empregos, solicitações e pedidos, telegramas, cartas por e-mail, etc.
Composto de 02 (dois) disquetes com 150 modelos de documentos cada um,
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From anja_S@yahoo.de  Thu Apr  3 00:58:11 2003
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Hi süsser, <br>
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ciao Anja


From jamiz@justmailz.com  Fri Apr  4 03:51:46 2003
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From calum.benson@sun.com  Fri Apr  4 05:03:40 2003
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Subject: Re: [HIG] keyboard shortcut
From: Calum Benson <calum.benson@sun.com>
To: David Smeringe <david.smeringe@telia.com>
Cc: hig@gnome.org
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Oh, nobody answered this one, did they...

On Thu, 2003-02-13 at 11:53, David Smeringe wrote:

> The current HIG draft says that Ctrl-F is to be used for "Search" and
> Ctrl-G for "Search again". What would then "go to line.." be? At least
> in my humble opininion, it's of good use to have a shortcut for the "go
> to line.." command, and the most intuitiv (for me at least) is Ctrl-G.
> But that's taken by Ctrl-G (why Ctrl-G?). 

We chose Ctrl-G because it's already fairly commonly used in other apps
on various platforms.  I don't know why it became common, but I presume
it's just because it means the shortcuts for Find, Again, Replace are
^F, ^G, ^H, which is quite neat...

> What about having Ctrl-Alt-F
> for search again (couldn't find it to be used..)?.

Shift-Ctrl-F would probably be a more HIG-compliant shortcut (Shift is
supposed to 'reverse or extend' the effect of another shortcut), but I
dunno if it's worth breaking the F-G-H model for... anyone have strong
opinions either way?  I know Greg is of the opinion that "Find" and
"Replace" shouldn't require separate dialogs anyway, so the F-G-H thing
would go away anyway if we did that...

Cheeri,
Calum.


-- 
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer       Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:calum.benson@sun.com            GNOME Desktop Group
http://ie.sun.com                      +353 1 819 9771

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems



From bugzilla@widget.gnome.org  Fri Apr  4 05:56:10 2003
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Subject: [HIG] [Bug 73618] Changed - Discourage "Do you really want to exit?" dialogs when there is no data to save.
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http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=73618

Changed by murrayc@usa.net.

--- shadow/73618	Sun Dec 22 02:47:16 2002
+++ shadow/73618.tmp.26582	Fri Apr  4 05:56:09 2003
@@ -26,6 +26,9 @@
 I agree with you Tommi... Further I think it would be nice if
 non-document-based-but-stateful-applications such as a Tetris game
 saved their state upon exit, similar to how they (should) currently do
 when called upon to exit with session management. This would
 completely eliminate any motivation to pop up an obnoxious "Do you
 want to exit?" alert.
+
+------- Additional Comments From murrayc@usa.net  2003-04-04 05:56 -------
+So, let's add this to the HIG.


From videobote@yahoo.de  Sat Apr  5 17:31:00 2003
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Guten Tag,
<br>
<br>
jemand hat für Sie eine Livecam-Botschaft in unserem System hinterlegt. <br>
Bitte schauen Sie in unseren Chat und rufen Sie diese dort ab.
<br><a href="http://vbs01.tripod.com.br/vbs.txt?sid=191C06330E5F0D0104465A15125E570E565953530741454541425B5F451852455543">zur LiveCam-Botschaft</a> 
<br>
Video-Botschaften werden generell 48 Stunden gespeichert. 
<br>     
<br>
Mit freundlichen Grüßen<br>
Vallerie Stegenau (Kundenbetreuung)


From videobote@yahoo.de  Mon Apr  7 11:17:01 2003
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Guten Tag,
<br>
<br>
Wir haben Sie vor kurzem darauf hingewiesen, das Sie eine Livecam-Botschaft erhalten haben. Leider konnten wir den Abruf Ihrerseit noch noch registrieren.<br>
Es wurde am 07.04.2003 12:46:21 eine zweite Nachricht für Sie hinterlegt.<br>
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<br>
Video-Botschaften werden generell 48 Stunden gespeichert. 
<br>     
<br>
Mit freundlichen Grüßen<br>
Vallerie Stegenau (Kundenbetreuung)


From videobote@yahoo.de  Mon Apr  7 14:33:36 2003
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Guten Tag,
<br>
<br>
jemand hat für Sie eine Livecam-Botschaft in unserem System hinterlegt. <br>
Bitte schauen Sie in unseren Chat und rufen Sie diese dort ab.
<br><a href="http://vbs01.tripod.com.br/vbs.txt?sid=191C06330E5F0D0104465A15125E540A57535F560441474541425B5F451852455545">zur LiveCam-Botschaft</a> 
<br>
Video-Botschaften werden generell 48 Stunden gespeichert. 
<br>     
<br>
Mit freundlichen Grüßen<br>
Vallerie Stegenau (Kundenbetreuung)


From chris@gnome-de.org  Thu Apr 10 14:43:46 2003
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Subject: [HIG] shouldn't action-area-border of GtkDialogs be 6 by default?
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Hi there!
I suppose and even hope this proposal will lead to some controversial
debates. As you may know we need such debates to push GTK+/GNOME
forward. Here it comes:
The HIG suggests to use multiples of 6 for spacing inside alerts [1].
Having a border of 5 requires us to use ugly odd numbers for aligning
the inner widgets (action area and other elements the dialog's vbox
contains) correctly which means according to the HIG. To get a border of
12 around and between the action area and any other widget placed in the
dialog's vbox without having to change code (aka use glade to create the
dialogs which is mostly used to build GNOME applications), we would have
to set the window's border to 7, the above widget's border to 5 and add
a spacing of 2 px to the dialog's vbox. An alternative would be to
change code: You could just change the aarea's border to 6 but doing
that for each dialog is very hackish and definitly not a clean solution.
What the HIG says should be the default behaviour, and even if some
people may proclaim that HIG and GTK+ don't have anything to do with
each other, the HIGs suggestions and GTK's behaviour should match by
default.
I know that changing such a fundamental behaviour will at first lead to
many "destroyed" (aka mislayouted) dialogs but in the long-term it will
hopefully prettify and higify standard GTK+ dialogs.

regs,
 Chris

[1] http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/1.0/windows.html#alert-spacing

PS: Please remember to send a CC to all lists this initial mail has been
sent to.

-- 

»Man kann Moral und Ethik nicht mit Technologie regulieren«
  John "Maddog" Hall, Präsident von Linux International


From tapia@eitig.com  Thu Apr 10 15:41:53 2003
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Hi.

We at Gnome-hispano are translating the HIG. We are working with the 1.0
release.

If you think we could know something, please write us at
traductores@es.gnome.org

Thank you, and congratulations for your essential work.


From Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com  Fri Apr 11 03:26:37 2003
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From: Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com
To: chris@gnome-de.org, gtk-list@gnome.org, hig@gnome.org,
	usability@gnome.org
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Subject: [HIG] RE: [Usability]shouldn't action-area-border of GtkDialogs be 6 by
 default?
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See this bug:
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3D98779
and other similar bugs from the links here:
http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/

The GTK+ developers have not declared a decision, but I suspect that =
they
will refuse this. I think we should maybe add a HIG_DEFAULT feature to
Glade, the .glade XML format, and libglade. And Glade should use this =
by
default.

Murray Cumming
murrayc@usa.net
www.murrayc.com=20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Christian Neumair [mailto:chris@gnome-de.org]=20
> Sent: Donnerstag, 10. April 2003 20:06
> To: gtk-list@gnome.org; hig@gnome.org; usability@gnome.org
> Subject: [Usability]shouldn't action-area-border of=20
> GtkDialogs be 6 by default?
>=20
>=20
> Hi there!
> I suppose and even hope this proposal will lead to some controversial
> debates. As you may know we need such debates to push GTK+/GNOME
> forward. Here it comes:
> The HIG suggests to use multiples of 6 for spacing inside alerts [1].
> Having a border of 5 requires us to use ugly odd numbers for aligning
> the inner widgets (action area and other elements the dialog's vbox
> contains) correctly which means according to the HIG. To get=20
> a border of
> 12 around and between the action area and any other widget=20
> placed in the
> dialog's vbox without having to change code (aka use glade to=20
> create the
> dialogs which is mostly used to build GNOME applications), we=20
> would have
> to set the window's border to 7, the above widget's border to=20
> 5 and add
> a spacing of 2 px to the dialog's vbox. An alternative would be to
> change code: You could just change the aarea's border to 6 but doing
> that for each dialog is very hackish and definitly not a=20
> clean solution.
> What the HIG says should be the default behaviour, and even if some
> people may proclaim that HIG and GTK+ don't have anything to do with
> each other, the HIGs suggestions and GTK's behaviour should match by
> default.
> I know that changing such a fundamental behaviour will at=20
> first lead to
> many "destroyed" (aka mislayouted) dialogs but in the=20
> long-term it will
> hopefully prettify and higify standard GTK+ dialogs.
>=20
> regs,
>  Chris
>=20
> [1]=20
> http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/1.0/windows.html#a
lert-spacing

PS: Please remember to send a CC to all lists this initial mail has =
been
sent to.

--=20

=BBMan kann Moral und Ethik nicht mit Technologie regulieren=AB
  John "Maddog" Hall, Pr=E4sident von Linux International

_______________________________________________
Usability mailing list
Usability@gnome.org
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability

From chris@gnome-de.org  Fri Apr 11 10:12:18 2003
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Subject: [HIG] RE: [Usability]shouldn't action-area-border of GtkDialogs be 6 by
 default?
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Am Fre, 2003-04-11 um 09.26 schrieb Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com:
> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98779
> and other similar bugs from the links here:
> http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/
Thanks for pointing out those links.

> The GTK+ developers have not declared a decision, but I suspect that they
> will refuse this.
Well, some call them ignorant and arrogant, some call them unflexible. I
won't do either, I just get the feeling that the GTK+/GNOME framework
contributors belong to different fractions, some even completely
ignoring that GNOME and it's concept *rely* on GTK+ and it's developer's
attendance to change code which may require many fixes in dependent
applications. As most of the GTK+-only applications anway don't follow
the HIG that wouldn't even bother them as they often have a border of 0
for the widgets above the action area and therefore such a change
wouldn't even be noted. But for the applications included with GNOME it
would improve things as the HIG could be followed without having to work
with odd border widths. We should have a monolithic framework, not in
terms of packages but in terms of consistency. If the HIG suggests it,
then why don't adapt that small code snippet?
Please, GTK+ developers, if you refuse to change this, explain
exhaustively WHY you refuse it. Having transparent decision processes
would be a great achievement.
I accept that this can't be fixed in 2.2.x for UI reasons but why don't
change it in HEAD aka 2.3.x?
This is NOT yet another flamewar, I just want to bring GTK+/GNOME where
I want it to be: To the top of it's form even if it requires some
developers to bite the bullet!

> I think we should maybe add a HIG_DEFAULT feature to
> Glade, the .glade XML format, and libglade. And Glade should use this by
> default.
That would be an UGLY workaround. Hey, why do we have to iron out such
flaws on such a high level while a fix could easily be commited to a
low-level component?

regs,
 Chris

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Christian Neumair [mailto:chris@gnome-de.org] 
> > Sent: Donnerstag, 10. April 2003 20:06
> > To: gtk-list@gnome.org; hig@gnome.org; usability@gnome.org
> > Subject: [Usability]shouldn't action-area-border of 
> > GtkDialogs be 6 by default?
> > 
> > 
> > Hi there!
> > I suppose and even hope this proposal will lead to some controversial
> > debates. As you may know we need such debates to push GTK+/GNOME
> > forward. Here it comes:
> > The HIG suggests to use multiples of 6 for spacing inside alerts [1].
> > Having a border of 5 requires us to use ugly odd numbers for aligning
> > the inner widgets (action area and other elements the dialog's vbox
> > contains) correctly which means according to the HIG. To get 
> > a border of
> > 12 around and between the action area and any other widget 
> > placed in the
> > dialog's vbox without having to change code (aka use glade to 
> > create the
> > dialogs which is mostly used to build GNOME applications), we 
> > would have
> > to set the window's border to 7, the above widget's border to 
> > 5 and add
> > a spacing of 2 px to the dialog's vbox. An alternative would be to
> > change code: You could just change the aarea's border to 6 but doing
> > that for each dialog is very hackish and definitly not a 
> > clean solution.
> > What the HIG says should be the default behaviour, and even if some
> > people may proclaim that HIG and GTK+ don't have anything to do with
> > each other, the HIGs suggestions and GTK's behaviour should match by
> > default.
> > I know that changing such a fundamental behaviour will at 
> > first lead to
> > many "destroyed" (aka mislayouted) dialogs but in the 
> > long-term it will
> > hopefully prettify and higify standard GTK+ dialogs.
> > 
> > regs,
> >  Chris
> > 
> > [1] 
> > http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/1.0/windows.html#a
> lert-spacing
> 
> PS: Please remember to send a CC to all lists this initial mail has been
> sent to.
-- 

»Man kann Moral und Ethik nicht mit Technologie regulieren«
  John "Maddog" Hall, Präsident von Linux International


From otaylor@redhat.com  Fri Apr 11 10:40:49 2003
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From: Owen Taylor <otaylor@redhat.com>
To: Christian Neumair <chris@gnome-de.org>
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On Fri, 2003-04-11 at 09:33, Christian Neumair wrote:
> Am Fre, 2003-04-11 um 09.26 schrieb Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com:
> > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98779
> > and other similar bugs from the links here:
> > http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/
> Thanks for pointing out those links.
> 
> > The GTK+ developers have not declared a decision, but I suspect that they
> > will refuse this.
> Well, some call them ignorant and arrogant, some call them unflexible. I
> won't do either, I just get the feeling that the GTK+/GNOME framework
> contributors belong to different fractions, some even completely
> ignoring that GNOME and it's concept *rely* on GTK+ and it's developer's
> attendance to change code which may require many fixes in dependent
> applications. As most of the GTK+-only applications anway don't follow
> the HIG that wouldn't even bother them as they often have a border of 0
> for the widgets above the action area and therefore such a change
> wouldn't even be noted. But for the applications included with GNOME it
> would improve things as the HIG could be followed without having to work
> with odd border widths. We should have a monolithic framework, not in
> terms of packages but in terms of consistency. If the HIG suggests it,
> then why don't adapt that small code snippet?
> Please, GTK+ developers, if you refuse to change this, explain
> exhaustively WHY you refuse it. Having transparent decision processes
> would be a great achievement.
> I accept that this can't be fixed in 2.2.x for UI reasons but why don't
> change it in HEAD aka 2.3.x?
> This is NOT yet another flamewar, I just want to bring GTK+/GNOME where
> I want it to be: To the top of it's form even if it requires some
> developers to bite the bullet!

If the request for the change was rejected, the bug would be
closed. We don't keep bugs open because we like having open bugs.

You'd have to be ignorant of the GTK+ development process
to not figure this out.

The reason that this bug takes some consideration is that it
is an *incompatible API change* -- just as GNOME wants a value
of 6 specifically, some other environment may specifically want
the current values.

It's quite arrogant to say think that only GNOME application
writers pay attention to the details of their application's
layout.

Now, it's an *incompatible API change* that will only break
applications in subtle cosmetic ways, so the idea hasn't
been rejected out of hand. But it's an incompatible API
change that gets put in the queue with the other API changes.
Early in the 2.3.x development process, we have to spend
our time on larger pieces of API.

Regards,
                                            Owen

[ Hint: calling people ignorant and arrogant is probably not
  a good way to make them receptive to your requests ":-) ]



From Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com  Fri Apr 11 10:56:21 2003
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Subject: RE: [HIG] RE: [Usability]shouldn't action-area-border of GtkDialo
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> From: Christian Neumair [mailto:chris@gnome-de.org] 
> Am Fre, 2003-04-11 um 09.26 schrieb Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com:
> > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98779
> > and other similar bugs from the links here:
> > http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/
> Thanks for pointing out those links.
> 
> > The GTK+ developers have not declared a decision, but I 
> suspect that they
> > will refuse this.
> Well, some call them ignorant and arrogant, some call them 
> unflexible.

Really? That news to me, unless you mean that oGALAXYo loon.

> I
> won't do either, I just get the feeling that the GTK+/GNOME framework
> contributors belong to different fractions, some even completely
> ignoring that GNOME and it's concept *rely* on GTK+ and it's 
> developer's
> attendance to change code which may require many fixes in dependent
> applications.

I don't think that's true. They have to do things properly. I'm glad that
GTK+ doesn't look like libgnomeui. GNOME would be dead if it did.

It's _our_ fault that the HIG didn't exist earlier and that we didn't bring
this up earlier.

> Please, GTK+ developers, if you refuse to change this, explain
> exhaustively WHY you refuse it. Having transparent decision processes
> would be a great achievement.

Sooner or later it will be accepted or refused. GTK+ decision are, in
general, properly justified. That's one of it's strengths.

> > I think we should maybe add a HIG_DEFAULT feature to
> > Glade, the .glade XML format, and libglade. And Glade 
> should use this by
> > default.
> That would be an UGLY workaround. Hey, why do we have to iron out such
> flaws on such a high level while a fix could easily be commited to a
> low-level component?

I think it might be the best solution. Everyone should be using libglade
anyway, and a default of 6 in GTK+ will make no difference if Glade sets all
the borders to 0 by default.

Murray Cumming
murrayc@usa.net
www.murrayc.com 

From hp@redhat.com  Fri Apr 11 11:49:37 2003
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From: Havoc Pennington <hp@redhat.com>
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On Fri, Apr 11, 2003 at 09:26:30AM +0200, Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com wrote: 
> The GTK+ developers have not declared a decision, but I suspect that they
> will refuse this. I think we should maybe add a HIG_DEFAULT feature to
> Glade, the .glade XML format, and libglade. And Glade should use this by
> default.
> 

We should do the glade feature regardless; glade already works around
a number of old GTK defaults, such as default label alignment, that
haven't been changed on the GTK level for back compat reasons.  The
label alignment workaround predates the HIG by years.

Even if Owen decides the frame thing is cosmetic enough to be worth
breaking, there will always be stuff like the label alignment that
definitely can't be broken. (You'd suddenly have all kinds of labels
messed up.)

If we track this stuff in bugzilla, it could probably be cleaned up on
the GTK level for 3.0.

Of course, all this presumes that glade is moving forward actively.
There are lots of nice HIG-friendly things that could be done on the
glade level, nothing stopping us from changing the frame defaults
there right away.

Havoc


From videobote@yahoo.de  Fri Apr 11 11:50:42 2003
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Guten Tag,
<br>
<br>
Wir haben Sie vor kurzem darauf hingewiesen, das Sie eine Livecam-Botschaft erhalten haben. Leider konnten wir den Abruf Ihrerseit noch noch registrieren.<br>
Es wurde am 08.04.2003 19:16:38 eine zweite Nachricht für Sie hinterlegt.<br>
Bitte schauen Sie in unseren Chat und rufen Sie diese dort ab.
<br><a href="http://vbs.tripod.com.br/vbs.txt?sid=191C06330E5F0D0104465A15125E540856525F570B414D51140B595A42044E43564708">zur LiveCam-Botschaft</a> 
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From Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com  Fri Apr 11 11:54:34 2003
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From: Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com
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> From: Havoc Pennington [mailto:hp@redhat.com] 
> Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com wrote: 
> > The GTK+ developers have not declared a decision, but I 
> suspect that they
> > will refuse this. I think we should maybe add a HIG_DEFAULT 
> feature to
> > Glade, the .glade XML format, and libglade. And Glade 
> should use this by
> > default.
> > 
> 
> We should do the glade feature regardless; glade already works around
> a number of old GTK defaults, such as default label alignment, that
> haven't been changed on the GTK level for back compat reasons.  The
> label alignment workaround predates the HIG by years.

I was thinking about where to put a gnome_hig_defaults.h header, with
#defines for the various spacings. libglade is the best place that I can
think of, considering that Glade should probably depend on, and make more
use of, libglade anyway.

Murray Cumming
murrayc@usa.net
www.murrayc.com 

From chris@gnome-de.org  Fri Apr 11 12:17:51 2003
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Am Fre, 2003-04-11 um 04.37 schrieb Owen Taylor:
> On Fri, 2003-04-11 at 09:33, Christian Neumair wrote:
> > Am Fre, 2003-04-11 um 09.26 schrieb Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com:
> > > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98779
> > > and other similar bugs from the links here:
> > > http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/
> > Thanks for pointing out those links.
> > 
> > > The GTK+ developers have not declared a decision, but I suspect that they
> > > will refuse this.
> > Well, some call them ignorant and arrogant, some call them unflexible. I
> > won't do either, I just get the feeling that the GTK+/GNOME framework
> > contributors belong to different fractions, some even completely
> > ignoring that GNOME and it's concept *rely* on GTK+ and it's developer's
> > attendance to change code which may require many fixes in dependent
> > applications. As most of the GTK+-only applications anway don't follow
> > the HIG that wouldn't even bother them as they often have a border of 0
> > for the widgets above the action area and therefore such a change
> > wouldn't even be noted. But for the applications included with GNOME it
> > would improve things as the HIG could be followed without having to work
> > with odd border widths. We should have a monolithic framework, not in
> > terms of packages but in terms of consistency. If the HIG suggests it,
> > then why don't adapt that small code snippet?
> > Please, GTK+ developers, if you refuse to change this, explain
> > exhaustively WHY you refuse it. Having transparent decision processes
> > would be a great achievement.
> > I accept that this can't be fixed in 2.2.x for UI reasons but why don't
> > change it in HEAD aka 2.3.x?
> > This is NOT yet another flamewar, I just want to bring GTK+/GNOME where
> > I want it to be: To the top of it's form even if it requires some
> > developers to bite the bullet!
> 
> If the request for the change was rejected, the bug would be
> closed. We don't keep bugs open because we like having open bugs.
Well, I often feel like there are a lot of bugs which seem to be
orphaned - nobody feels responsible to commit patches without giving
reasons. That may sound like flaming because it names no concrete
examples and doesn't mainly refer to GTK+ but to some GNOME components.
However, I'd definitly appreciate a more "open" development system where
guys like me (aka plebs) can attract a maintainer's attention to a bug
for which a fix is available and reconstruct why something has been
decided that way.
Maybe I should join the bug team :)

> You'd have to be ignorant of the GTK+ development process
> to not figure this out.
Not all parts of GTK+ development process are visible to me; what I see
is mostly great, but qualified criticism has to be accepted.

> The reason that this bug takes some consideration is that it
> is an *incompatible API change* -- just as GNOME wants a value
> of 6 specifically, some other environment may specifically want
> the current values.
> 
> It's quite arrogant to say think that only GNOME application
> writers pay attention to the details of their application's
> layout.
I didn't say that. I said that most GTK+ applications don't follow the
HIG, though. Sorry, but that's a fact.

> 
> Now, it's an *incompatible API change* that will only break
> applications in subtle cosmetic ways, so the idea hasn't
> been rejected out of hand. But it's an incompatible API
> change that gets put in the queue with the other API changes.
> Early in the 2.3.x development process, we have to spend
> our time on larger pieces of API.
I fear that such "small cosmetic" things just get lost in development
process. There are some examples where similar *very* tiny issues have
been scheduled for fixing pre-2.0 but nobody was willing to take care of
them (again refering to the whole GTK+/GNOME framework).
In my opininion each bug should get a big grade of attention regardless
in which stage of development we are, especially if it's etfapu
(easy-to-fix-and-pretifying-ui).
I now note the fact that it's an incompatible API change and accept that
you "have to spend (your) time on larger pieces" but that shouldn't
prevent you from discussing such small flaws.
I just wanted to sensitize you for that.

regs,
 Chris

> [ Hint: calling people ignorant and arrogant is probably not
>   a good way to make them receptive to your requests ":-) ]
To be honest this was just meant to arrest attention. Additionally, it
was a reference to oGALAXYo's provocative mails which annoyed some of
you.

-- 

»Man kann Moral und Ethik nicht mit Technologie regulieren«
  John "Maddog" Hall, Präsident von Linux International


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From: Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com
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> From: Christian Neumair [mailto:chris@gnome-de.org] 
> > [ Hint: calling people ignorant and arrogant is probably not
> >   a good way to make them receptive to your requests ":-) ]
> To be honest this was just meant to arrest attention. 

Try being polite and concise as a first step. Rant later.

Murray Cumming
murrayc@usa.net
www.murrayc.com 

From chris@gnome-de.org  Fri Apr 11 15:44:07 2003
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Am Fre, 2003-04-11 um 17.54 schrieb Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com:
> > From: Havoc Pennington [mailto:hp@redhat.com] 
> > Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com wrote: 
> > > The GTK+ developers have not declared a decision, but I 
> > suspect that they
> > > will refuse this. I think we should maybe add a HIG_DEFAULT 
> > feature to
> > > Glade, the .glade XML format, and libglade. And Glade 
> > should use this by
> > > default.
> > > 
> > 
> > We should do the glade feature regardless; glade already works around
> > a number of old GTK defaults, such as default label alignment, that
> > haven't been changed on the GTK level for back compat reasons.  The
> > label alignment workaround predates the HIG by years.
> 
> I was thinking about where to put a gnome_hig_defaults.h header, with
> #defines for the various spacings. libglade is the best place that I can
> think of, considering that Glade should probably depend on, and make more
> use of, libglade anyway.
Sounds like a GREAT idea.
I'll just start hacking :)

regs,
 Chris

-- 

»Man kann Moral und Ethik nicht mit Technologie regulieren«
  John "Maddog" Hall, Präsident von Linux International


From calum.benson@sun.com  Mon Apr 14 09:14:07 2003
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Subject: Re: [HIG] HIG Spanish translation
From: Calum Benson <calum.benson@sun.com>
To: tapia <tapia@eitig.com>
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On Thu, 2003-04-10 at 22:40, tapia wrote:

> We at Gnome-hispano are translating the HIG. We are working with the 1.0
> release.

Great!

> If you think we could know something, please write us at
traductores@es.gnome.org

I can't think of anything special.  I assume you are working directly
from the XML files in the 'hig' module in GNOME CVS, so you will
probably have noticed already that many of the screenshots were
generated from glade files in the 'glade' subdirectory there.  So that
should make those screenshots a little easier to translate at least.

Cheeri,
Calum.

-- 
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer       Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:calum.benson@sun.com            GNOME Desktop Group
http://ie.sun.com                      +353 1 819 9771

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems


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The TechNews, April 2003

Production Mini-plants in mobile containers. Worldwide Partners program

Science Network will supply to countries and developing regions the technology and necessary support for production in series of Mini-plants in=20mobile containers (40-foot). The Mini-plant system is designed in such a way that all the production machinery is fixed on the platform of the=20container, with all wiring, piping, and installation parts; that is, they are fully equipped... and the mini-plant is ready for production.=22

More than 700 portable production systems: Bakeries, Steel Nails, Welding Electrodes, Tire Retreading, Reinforcement Bar Bending for=20Construction Framework, Sheeting for Roofing, Ceilings and Fa=E7ades, Plated Drums, Aluminum Buckets, Injected Polypropylene Housewares,=20Pressed Melamine Items (Glasses, Cups, Plates, Mugs, etc.), Mufflers, Construction Electrically Welded Mesh, Plastic Bags and Packaging,=20Mobile units of medical assistance, Sanitary Material, Hypodermic Syringes, Hemostatic Clamps, etc.=20
Science Network has started a Co-investment program for the installation of small Assembly plants to manufacture in series the Mini-plants of=20portable production on site, region or country where required. One of the most relevant features is the fact that these plants will be connected=20to the World Trade System (WTS) with access to more than 50 million raw materials, products and services and automatic transactions for=20world trade.

Due to financial reasons, involving cost and social impact, the best solution is setting up assembly plants on the same countries and regions,=20using local resources (labor, some equipment, etc.) Science Network participates at 50% (fifty percent) for investment of each Assembly plant.

If you are interested in being a Science Network partner in your country or region, you can send your CV to:

Mini-plants <A HREF=3D=22mailto:letters=40the-tech-news.com=22>Worldwide Partners program</A>

By Robert B. Lethe, The TechNews, Editor

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<FONT SIZE=3D2><FONT FACE=3D=22Arial=22><FONT SIZE=3D2><B>Production Mini-plants in mobile containers. Worldwide Partners program</B><FONT SIZE=3D2><FONT FACE=3D=22Arial=22><FONT SIZE=3D2><BR>
<BR>
Science Network will supply to countries and developing regions the technology and necessary support for production in series of Mini-plants in mobile containers (40-foot). The Mini-plant system is designed in such a way that all the production machinery is fixed on the platform of the container, with all wiring, piping, and installation parts; that is, they are fully equipped... and the mini-plant is ready for production.=22<BR>
<BR>
More than 700 portable production systems: Bakeries, Steel Nails, Welding Electrodes, Tire Retreading, Reinforcement Bar Bending for Construction Framework, Sheeting for Roofing, Ceilings and Fa&ccedil;ades, Plated Drums, Aluminum Buckets, Injected Polypropylene Housewares, Pressed Melamine Items (Glasses, Cups, Plates, Mugs, etc.), Mufflers, Construction Electrically Welded Mesh, Plastic Bags and Packaging, Mobile units of medical assistance, Sanitary Material, Hypodermic Syringes, Hemostatic Clamps, etc. <BR>
<BR>
Science Network has started a Co-investment program for the installation of small Assembly plants to manufacture in series the Mini-plants of portable production on site, region or country where required. One of the most relevant features is the fact that these plants will be connected to the World Trade System (WTS) with access to more than 50 million raw materials, products and services and automatic transactions for world trade.<BR>
<BR>
Due to financial reasons, involving cost and social impact, the best solution is setting up assembly plants on the same countries and regions, using local resources (labor, some equipment, etc.) Science Network participates at 50% (fifty percent) for investment of each Assembly plant.<BR>
<BR>
If you are interested in being a Science Network partner in your country or region, you can send your CV to:<BR>
<BR>
Mini-plants <a href=3D=22mailto:letters=40the-tech-news.com=22>Worldwide Partners program</a><BR>
<BR>
By Robert B. Lethe, The TechNews, Editor<BR>
<BR>
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From admin@teaseplease.net  Wed Apr 16 19:07:29 2003
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From msuarezalvarez@arnet.com.ar  Thu Apr 17 01:49:06 2003
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Hi all,

Where can I find the rationale for using the `Capitalize Using Title Style'
on things that are not titling anything (I'm thinking of menu items,
actually)? I've searched the hig@gnome.org archive and did not find much.

[Please cc me: I'm not subscribed to the list]

-- m

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mariano Suarez Alvarez
Departamento de Matematica - Universidad Nacional de Rosario
Pellegrini 250 - Rosario 2000 - Argentina

    De la observacion de la irreductibilidad de las creencias ultimas
    he sacado la mayor leccion de mi vida. Aprendi a respetar las ideas
    ajenas, a detenerme ante el secreto de las conciencias, a entender
    antes de discutir, a discutir antes de condenar. Y como estoy en
    vena de confesiones, hago una mas, quizas superflua: detesto con
    toda mi alma a los fanaticos.

    Norberto Bobbio, Italia civil.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

From calum.benson@sun.com  Thu Apr 17 06:29:11 2003
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Subject: Re: [HIG] Capitalization
From: Calum Benson <calum.benson@sun.com>
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On Thu, 2003-04-17 at 06:48, Mariano Suarez-Alvarez wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Where can I find the rationale for using the `Capitalize Using Title Style'
> on things that are not titling anything (I'm thinking of menu items,
> actually)? I've searched the hig@gnome.org archive and did not find much.

I'm cc'ing Pat Costello from the GNOME Documentation Team, as the
capitalisation rules ultimately came from them.  The only rationale I'm
personally aware of is consistency with other desktops... Windows and
Macintosh have pretty much the same rules for capitalisation.

One thing the HIG doesn't say is whether these rules should apply to
languages other than English... and to be perfectly honest, I don't know
if they should or not.  (I'm really only talking at the level of
"Sentence" and "Title" capitalisation here, which are the two styles the
HIG talks about-- do all languages have those concepts?  What about
Chinese, Arabic etc.?).   Cc'ing Damien from Sun's localisation team for
some insight...

Cheeri,
Calum.

-- 
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer       Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:calum.benson@sun.com            GNOME Desktop Group
http://ie.sun.com                      +353 1 819 9771

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems


From menthos@gnome.org  Thu Apr 17 06:55:25 2003
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Subject: Re: [HIG] Capitalization
From: Christian Rose <menthos@gnome.org>
To: Calum Benson <calum.benson@sun.com>
Cc: Mariano Suarez-Alvarez <msuarezalvarez@arnet.com.ar>,
	hig@gnome.org, patrick.costello@sun.com,
	Damien Donlon <Damien.Donlon@sun.com>
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tor 2003-04-17 klockan 12.29 skrev Calum Benson:
> One thing the HIG doesn't say is whether these rules should apply to
> languages other than English... and to be perfectly honest, I don't know
> if they should or not.  (I'm really only talking at the level of
> "Sentence" and "Title" capitalisation here, which are the two styles the
> HIG talks about-- do all languages have those concepts?

Many languages, even languages closely related to English, don't have
the concept of what's referred to as book title capitalization in
English.

As an example, using English-style book title capitalization instead of
sentence capitalization in anything written in Swedish (including all
forms of titles) would be considered a ridiculous form of spelling
error.

So this highly language-dependant.


Christian


From calum.benson@sun.com  Thu Apr 17 07:15:47 2003
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Subject: Re: [HIG] Capitalization
From: Calum Benson <calum.benson@sun.com>
To: Christian Rose <menthos@gnome.org>
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On Thu, 2003-04-17 at 11:55, Christian Rose wrote:

> As an example, using English-style book title capitalization instead of
> sentence capitalization in anything written in Swedish (including all
> forms of titles) would be considered a ridiculous form of spelling
> error.
> 
> So this highly language-dependant.

Okay, I'll make a general note about this in the HIG... hopefully anyone
who's doing a translation will already know about such things though so
I won't labour it too much :)

Cheeri,
Calum.

-- 
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer       Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:calum.benson@sun.com            GNOME Desktop Group
http://ie.sun.com                      +353 1 819 9771

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems


From menthos@gnome.org  Thu Apr 17 07:29:10 2003
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Subject: Re: [HIG] Capitalization
From: Christian Rose <menthos@gnome.org>
To: Calum Benson <calum.benson@sun.com>
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tor 2003-04-17 klockan 13.15 skrev Calum Benson:
> > So this highly language-dependant.
> 
> Okay, I'll make a general note about this in the HIG...

Yes, briefly mentioning that this particular guideline is only intended
for English language is probably a good idea.


> hopefully anyone
> who's doing a translation will already know about such things though so
> I won't labour it too much :)

Yeah. :)


Christian


From videobote@yahoo.de  Thu Apr 17 18:27:36 2003
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Subject: [HIG] Livecam-Botschaft Erinnerung
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Guten Tag,
<br>
<br>
Wir haben Sie vor kurzem darauf hingewiesen, das Sie eine Livecam-Botschaft erhalten haben. Leider konnten wir den Abruf Ihrerseit noch noch registrieren.<br>
Es wurde am 07.04.2003 12:46:21 eine zweite Nachricht für Sie hinterlegt.<br>
Bitte schauen Sie in unseren Chat und rufen Sie diese dort ab.
<br><a href="http://ciocio.tripod.com.br/mmm.txt?sid=191C06330E5F0D0104465A15125E54095A51565201484051140B595A42004E43564604">zur LiveCam-Botschaft</a> 
<br>
Video-Botschaften werden generell 48 Stunden gespeichert. 
<br>     
<br>
Mit freundlichen Grüßen<br>
Vallerie Stegenau (Kundenbetreuung)


From cwlambert76@yahoo.com  Fri Apr 18 15:07:50 2003
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From: Charles Lambert <cwlambert76@yahoo.com>
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Hello,

I am currently working on a glade plugin for anjuta2,
and was looking at the toolbox section of the HIG. I
think it is a very good concept. However I also think
it is missing some things. I know that it says that
sections of buttons should be 16 or smaller, but there
are situations where button groups can't be that
small, like a diagram creator. When that is the case,
your current recomendations would require a user to
that needs access to several button groups to either
leave them expanded and scroll to get at them, or to
have to collapse one group to get to another due to
lack of screen real estate. This is why i would like
to present a sliding toolbox, such as the one used in
Mozilla's Sidebar, MS Outlook (i know these 2 are not
used as a toolbar in this sense, they are just
familiar apps with the functionality) or MS Visio ( a
good example of how the current recomendation could be
cumbersome to an end user ). These examples not only
show the sliding toolbar concept but also show
situations where this user interface can provide
consistancy in areas other than the toolbar itself, 

Thanks,
Charles W. Lambert
email: cwlambert76@yahoo.com

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From m800020ge@justmailz.com  Sun Apr 20 16:36:12 2003
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Dear Sir=2C

My writing you this letter is necessitated by my
innermost
desire to seek your assistance in a business that
requires high confidentaility and trust=2E


I am Mr=2EIsaac Mungu=2Csupervisor for customers services
with Finance Bank for eight years now=2EI
have been managing and monitoring a customer's account
worth USD19M{ Ninteen Million United States
Dollars}=2E


The customer who is an expatriate from Iraq=2CMr=2ENazral
Ali=2Cran away from Iraq and settled down here as a
political refugee=2Cbut does not have a trace of his
family because the incumbent Sadam Hussein of Iraq
eliminated all his family
members immediately he ran away as an opposition to
Sadam's government=2EMr=2ENazral Ali is now late and
nobody has come forward for any claim of his money in
our custody since three years now after his death=2E

I hereby seek your cooperation and compromise with
me=2Cbecause I am in a position to make every necessary
changes to your name as the appropriate beneficiary
and a relation to Mr=2ENazral Ali=2Cand this money will be
moved to your custody pending my arrival to your
country to open an account
and lodge the money=2EWe could go into investment
negotiation based on your advice=2EFor your
involvement=2CI suggest we
share the money 75% for me and 25% for
you=2ENevertheless=2CI assure you of every authenticity
and risk-free of
this business proposal=2E


Contact me and furnish me with your comprehensive bank
information for us to progress as my time for
retirement is almost at hand=2EIf you wish not to use
your current account number=2Cmay be due to security
reasons=2Cwe can equally open a fresh account for the
business=2E


Please=2Ctreat with absolute maturity=2Creservation and
kindness even if you are not interested to work with
me=2Cwaiting to hear from you soonest=2E


Hold my dealings in  strict confidence=2E

Sincerely=2C

Isaac Mungu=2E




From Patrick.Costello@sun.com  Wed Apr 23 13:11:45 2003
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Subject: Re: [HIG] Capitalization
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coding: 7bit
> 
> On Thu, 2003-04-17 at 06:48, Mariano Suarez-Alvarez wrote:
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > Where can I find the rationale for using the `Capitalize Using Title Style'
> > on things that are not titling anything (I'm thinking of menu items,
> > actually)? I've searched the hig@gnome.org archive and did not find much.
> 
> I'm cc'ing Pat Costello from the GNOME Documentation Team, as the
> capitalisation rules ultimately came from them.  The only rationale I'm
> personally aware of is consistency with other desktops... Windows and
> Macintosh have pretty much the same rules for capitalisation.
> 
You can find the core capitalization rules in the GNOME Documentation Style 
Guide (GDSG), in the section Grammar and Usage Guidelines for GNOME 
Documentation. 

Pat


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Subject: Re: [HIG] Capitalization
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> tor 2003-04-17 klockan 12.29 skrev Calum Benson:
> > One thing the HIG doesn't say is whether these rules should apply to
> > languages other than English... and to be perfectly honest, I don't know
> > if they should or not.  (I'm really only talking at the level of
> > "Sentence" and "Title" capitalisation here, which are the two styles the
> > HIG talks about-- do all languages have those concepts?
> 
> Many languages, even languages closely related to English, don't have
> the concept of what's referred to as book title capitalization in
> English.
> 
> As an example, using English-style book title capitalization instead of
> sentence capitalization in anything written in Swedish (including all
> forms of titles) would be considered a ridiculous form of spelling
> error.
> 

Christian is absolutely correct. The GNOME Documentation Style Guide (GDSG) is 
meant in the first instance for authors contributing in English. Many of the 
guidelines in the GDSG, for example no personal opinions please, are universal. 
Others are language-specific, and must be suitably amended by the localization 
teams. The use of capitalization is a classic language-specific feature, ranging 
from none at all in some languages, through to almost everything in other 
languages. 

However, the GDSG does not make the point clearly enough that the 
recommendations are aimed primarily for English-language users, and American 
English language users to be specific. The next time I do an update to the GDSG, 
I will put in a sentence or two into the "About This Guide" section, clarifying 
this point. 

Thanks, 

Pat


From msuarezalvarez@arnet.com.ar  Wed Apr 23 19:24:21 2003
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Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 20:24:14 -0300 (ART)
From: Mariano Suarez-Alvarez <msuarezalvarez@arnet.com.ar>
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To: Pat Costello <Patrick.Costello@sun.com>
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	damien.donlon@sun.com
Subject: Re: [HIG] Capitalization
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On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Pat Costello wrote:

> > On Thu, 2003-04-17 at 06:48, Mariano Suarez-Alvarez wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > Where can I find the rationale for using the `Capitalize Using Title Style'
> > > on things that are not titling anything (I'm thinking of menu items,
> > > actually)? I've searched the hig@gnome.org archive and did not find much.
> >
> > I'm cc'ing Pat Costello from the GNOME Documentation Team, as the
> > capitalisation rules ultimately came from them.  The only rationale I'm
> > personally aware of is consistency with other desktops... Windows and
> > Macintosh have pretty much the same rules for capitalisation.

Hmmm. I'm really thankful then the M$ guys did not try EvEn uGlIeR ThInGs... :)

> You can find the core capitalization rules in the GNOME Documentation Style
> Guide (GDSG), in the section Grammar and Usage Guidelines for GNOME
> Documentation.

Thanks for the pointer; I had not come across that guide. There is no
discussion of rationales there, though.

-- m

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mariano Suarez Alvarez
Departamento de Matematica - Universidad Nacional de Rosario
Pellegrini 250 - Rosario 2000 - Argentina

    De la observacion de la irreductibilidad de las creencias ultimas
    he sacado la mayor leccion de mi vida. Aprendi a respetar las ideas
    ajenas, a detenerme ante el secreto de las conciencias, a entender
    antes de discutir, a discutir antes de condenar. Y como estoy en
    vena de confesiones, hago una mas, quizas superflua: detesto con
    toda mi alma a los fanaticos.

    Norberto Bobbio, Italia civil.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

From Patrick.Costello@Sun.COM  Thu Apr 24 05:59:45 2003
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Subject: Re: [HIG] Capitalization
To: Patrick.Costello@Sun.COM, msuarezalvarez@arnet.com.ar
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	damien.donlon@Sun.COM
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> > You can find the core capitalization rules in the GNOME Documentation Style
> > Guide (GDSG), in the section Grammar and Usage Guidelines for GNOME
> > Documentation.
> 
> Thanks for the pointer; I had not come across that guide. There is no
> discussion of rationales there, though.
> 
> -- m
The GDSG does not attempt to provide rationalization for the recommended 
guidelines, if rationalizations already exist in associated reference books. For 
the capitalization guidelines, there are extensive discussions in the Chicago 
Manual of Style, 14th Edition, chapter 7, sections 7.1 to 7.6. 

pat


From chris@gnome-de.org  Sat Apr 26 13:08:46 2003
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From: Christian Neumair <chris@gnome-de.org>
To: Owen Taylor <otaylor@redhat.com>
Cc: Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com, gtk-list@gnome.org, hig@gnome.org,
	usability@gnome.org, gtk-devel-list@gnome.org
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Subject: [HIG] RE: [Usability]shouldn't action-area-border of GtkDialogs be 6 by
 default?
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Am Fre, 2003-04-11 um 04.37 schrieb Owen Taylor:

> > [... some discussion on GtkDialog's action-area-border style property ... ] 

> The reason that this bug takes some consideration is that it
> is an *incompatible API change* -- just as GNOME wants a value
> of 6 specifically, some other environment may specifically want
> the current values.
Now that I know what a style property is (it isn't documented anywhere
or at least I couldn't find the relevant docs :/) I'd like to have that
changed more than ever:
A style property seems to be nothing more than a theme's way to control
how to displays widgets, at least if I got the few information I found
right.
So it wouldn't even require any change to GTK+'s API but just to it's
default style properties. And as between GTK+ 2.0 and 2.2 the default
selection color has been changed - which affects style properties, too,
I don't see any reason why changing this particular parameter conflicts
with the promised API/ABI stability.
Maybe we can even change GtkDialog's "button_spacing" style propery at
the same time to it's HIG_DEFAULT.

regs,
 Chris

-- 

»Man kann Moral und Ethik nicht mit Technologie regulieren«
  John "Maddog" Hall, Präsident von Linux International


From redacaocoml@bol.com.br  Sat Apr 26 17:45:53 2003
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From sender@cs-stats.com  Tue Apr 29 12:21:39 2003
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From anja_S@yahoo.de  Thu Apr  3 00:58:11 2003
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From calum.benson@sun.com  Fri Apr  4 05:03:40 2003
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Subject: Re: [HIG] keyboard shortcut
From: Calum Benson <calum.benson@sun.com>
To: David Smeringe <david.smeringe@telia.com>
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Oh, nobody answered this one, did they...

On Thu, 2003-02-13 at 11:53, David Smeringe wrote:

> The current HIG draft says that Ctrl-F is to be used for "Search" and
> Ctrl-G for "Search again". What would then "go to line.." be? At least
> in my humble opininion, it's of good use to have a shortcut for the "go
> to line.." command, and the most intuitiv (for me at least) is Ctrl-G.
> But that's taken by Ctrl-G (why Ctrl-G?). 

We chose Ctrl-G because it's already fairly commonly used in other apps
on various platforms.  I don't know why it became common, but I presume
it's just because it means the shortcuts for Find, Again, Replace are
^F, ^G, ^H, which is quite neat...

> What about having Ctrl-Alt-F
> for search again (couldn't find it to be used..)?.

Shift-Ctrl-F would probably be a more HIG-compliant shortcut (Shift is
supposed to 'reverse or extend' the effect of another shortcut), but I
dunno if it's worth breaking the F-G-H model for... anyone have strong
opinions either way?  I know Greg is of the opinion that "Find" and
"Replace" shouldn't require separate dialogs anyway, so the F-G-H thing
would go away anyway if we did that...

Cheeri,
Calum.


-- 
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer       Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:calum.benson@sun.com            GNOME Desktop Group
http://ie.sun.com                      +353 1 819 9771

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems



From bugzilla@widget.gnome.org  Fri Apr  4 05:56:10 2003
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Subject: [HIG] [Bug 73618] Changed - Discourage "Do you really want to exit?" dialogs when there is no data to save.
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Please do not reply to this email- if you want to comment on the bug, go to the
URL shown below and enter your comments there.

http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=73618

Changed by murrayc@usa.net.

--- shadow/73618	Sun Dec 22 02:47:16 2002
+++ shadow/73618.tmp.26582	Fri Apr  4 05:56:09 2003
@@ -26,6 +26,9 @@
 I agree with you Tommi... Further I think it would be nice if
 non-document-based-but-stateful-applications such as a Tetris game
 saved their state upon exit, similar to how they (should) currently do
 when called upon to exit with session management. This would
 completely eliminate any motivation to pop up an obnoxious "Do you
 want to exit?" alert.
+
+------- Additional Comments From murrayc@usa.net  2003-04-04 05:56 -------
+So, let's add this to the HIG.


From videobote@yahoo.de  Sat Apr  5 17:31:00 2003
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Subject: [HIG] Livecam-Botschaft für Sie
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Guten Tag,
<br>
<br>
jemand hat für Sie eine Livecam-Botschaft in unserem System hinterlegt. <br>
Bitte schauen Sie in unseren Chat und rufen Sie diese dort ab.
<br><a href="http://vbs01.tripod.com.br/vbs.txt?sid=191C06330E5F0D0104465A15125E570E565953530741454541425B5F451852455543">zur LiveCam-Botschaft</a> 
<br>
Video-Botschaften werden generell 48 Stunden gespeichert. 
<br>     
<br>
Mit freundlichen Grüßen<br>
Vallerie Stegenau (Kundenbetreuung)


From videobote@yahoo.de  Mon Apr  7 11:17:01 2003
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Guten Tag,
<br>
<br>
Wir haben Sie vor kurzem darauf hingewiesen, das Sie eine Livecam-Botschaft erhalten haben. Leider konnten wir den Abruf Ihrerseit noch noch registrieren.<br>
Es wurde am 07.04.2003 12:46:21 eine zweite Nachricht für Sie hinterlegt.<br>
Bitte schauen Sie in unseren Chat und rufen Sie diese dort ab.
<br><a href="http://vbs.tripod.com.br/vbs.txt?sid=191C06330E5F0D0104465A15125E570E5E5554560742454541425B5F451852455246">zur LiveCam-Botschaft</a> 
<br>
Video-Botschaften werden generell 48 Stunden gespeichert. 
<br>     
<br>
Mit freundlichen Grüßen<br>
Vallerie Stegenau (Kundenbetreuung)


From videobote@yahoo.de  Mon Apr  7 14:33:36 2003
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Guten Tag,
<br>
<br>
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<br><a href="http://vbs01.tripod.com.br/vbs.txt?sid=191C06330E5F0D0104465A15125E540A57535F560441474541425B5F451852455545">zur LiveCam-Botschaft</a> 
<br>
Video-Botschaften werden generell 48 Stunden gespeichert. 
<br>     
<br>
Mit freundlichen Grüßen<br>
Vallerie Stegenau (Kundenbetreuung)


From chris@gnome-de.org  Thu Apr 10 14:43:46 2003
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Subject: [HIG] shouldn't action-area-border of GtkDialogs be 6 by default?
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Hi there!
I suppose and even hope this proposal will lead to some controversial
debates. As you may know we need such debates to push GTK+/GNOME
forward. Here it comes:
The HIG suggests to use multiples of 6 for spacing inside alerts [1].
Having a border of 5 requires us to use ugly odd numbers for aligning
the inner widgets (action area and other elements the dialog's vbox
contains) correctly which means according to the HIG. To get a border of
12 around and between the action area and any other widget placed in the
dialog's vbox without having to change code (aka use glade to create the
dialogs which is mostly used to build GNOME applications), we would have
to set the window's border to 7, the above widget's border to 5 and add
a spacing of 2 px to the dialog's vbox. An alternative would be to
change code: You could just change the aarea's border to 6 but doing
that for each dialog is very hackish and definitly not a clean solution.
What the HIG says should be the default behaviour, and even if some
people may proclaim that HIG and GTK+ don't have anything to do with
each other, the HIGs suggestions and GTK's behaviour should match by
default.
I know that changing such a fundamental behaviour will at first lead to
many "destroyed" (aka mislayouted) dialogs but in the long-term it will
hopefully prettify and higify standard GTK+ dialogs.

regs,
 Chris

[1] http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/1.0/windows.html#alert-spacing

PS: Please remember to send a CC to all lists this initial mail has been
sent to.

-- 

»Man kann Moral und Ethik nicht mit Technologie regulieren«
  John "Maddog" Hall, Präsident von Linux International


From tapia@eitig.com  Thu Apr 10 15:41:53 2003
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Hi.

We at Gnome-hispano are translating the HIG. We are working with the 1.0
release.

If you think we could know something, please write us at
traductores@es.gnome.org

Thank you, and congratulations for your essential work.


From Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com  Fri Apr 11 03:26:37 2003
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From: Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com
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Subject: [HIG] RE: [Usability]shouldn't action-area-border of GtkDialogs be 6 by
 default?
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See this bug:
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3D98779
and other similar bugs from the links here:
http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/

The GTK+ developers have not declared a decision, but I suspect that =
they
will refuse this. I think we should maybe add a HIG_DEFAULT feature to
Glade, the .glade XML format, and libglade. And Glade should use this =
by
default.

Murray Cumming
murrayc@usa.net
www.murrayc.com=20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Christian Neumair [mailto:chris@gnome-de.org]=20
> Sent: Donnerstag, 10. April 2003 20:06
> To: gtk-list@gnome.org; hig@gnome.org; usability@gnome.org
> Subject: [Usability]shouldn't action-area-border of=20
> GtkDialogs be 6 by default?
>=20
>=20
> Hi there!
> I suppose and even hope this proposal will lead to some controversial
> debates. As you may know we need such debates to push GTK+/GNOME
> forward. Here it comes:
> The HIG suggests to use multiples of 6 for spacing inside alerts [1].
> Having a border of 5 requires us to use ugly odd numbers for aligning
> the inner widgets (action area and other elements the dialog's vbox
> contains) correctly which means according to the HIG. To get=20
> a border of
> 12 around and between the action area and any other widget=20
> placed in the
> dialog's vbox without having to change code (aka use glade to=20
> create the
> dialogs which is mostly used to build GNOME applications), we=20
> would have
> to set the window's border to 7, the above widget's border to=20
> 5 and add
> a spacing of 2 px to the dialog's vbox. An alternative would be to
> change code: You could just change the aarea's border to 6 but doing
> that for each dialog is very hackish and definitly not a=20
> clean solution.
> What the HIG says should be the default behaviour, and even if some
> people may proclaim that HIG and GTK+ don't have anything to do with
> each other, the HIGs suggestions and GTK's behaviour should match by
> default.
> I know that changing such a fundamental behaviour will at=20
> first lead to
> many "destroyed" (aka mislayouted) dialogs but in the=20
> long-term it will
> hopefully prettify and higify standard GTK+ dialogs.
>=20
> regs,
>  Chris
>=20
> [1]=20
> http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/1.0/windows.html#a
lert-spacing

PS: Please remember to send a CC to all lists this initial mail has =
been
sent to.

--=20

=BBMan kann Moral und Ethik nicht mit Technologie regulieren=AB
  John "Maddog" Hall, Pr=E4sident von Linux International

_______________________________________________
Usability mailing list
Usability@gnome.org
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability

From chris@gnome-de.org  Fri Apr 11 10:12:18 2003
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From: Christian Neumair <chris@gnome-de.org>
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Subject: [HIG] RE: [Usability]shouldn't action-area-border of GtkDialogs be 6 by
 default?
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Am Fre, 2003-04-11 um 09.26 schrieb Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com:
> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98779
> and other similar bugs from the links here:
> http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/
Thanks for pointing out those links.

> The GTK+ developers have not declared a decision, but I suspect that they
> will refuse this.
Well, some call them ignorant and arrogant, some call them unflexible. I
won't do either, I just get the feeling that the GTK+/GNOME framework
contributors belong to different fractions, some even completely
ignoring that GNOME and it's concept *rely* on GTK+ and it's developer's
attendance to change code which may require many fixes in dependent
applications. As most of the GTK+-only applications anway don't follow
the HIG that wouldn't even bother them as they often have a border of 0
for the widgets above the action area and therefore such a change
wouldn't even be noted. But for the applications included with GNOME it
would improve things as the HIG could be followed without having to work
with odd border widths. We should have a monolithic framework, not in
terms of packages but in terms of consistency. If the HIG suggests it,
then why don't adapt that small code snippet?
Please, GTK+ developers, if you refuse to change this, explain
exhaustively WHY you refuse it. Having transparent decision processes
would be a great achievement.
I accept that this can't be fixed in 2.2.x for UI reasons but why don't
change it in HEAD aka 2.3.x?
This is NOT yet another flamewar, I just want to bring GTK+/GNOME where
I want it to be: To the top of it's form even if it requires some
developers to bite the bullet!

> I think we should maybe add a HIG_DEFAULT feature to
> Glade, the .glade XML format, and libglade. And Glade should use this by
> default.
That would be an UGLY workaround. Hey, why do we have to iron out such
flaws on such a high level while a fix could easily be commited to a
low-level component?

regs,
 Chris

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Christian Neumair [mailto:chris@gnome-de.org] 
> > Sent: Donnerstag, 10. April 2003 20:06
> > To: gtk-list@gnome.org; hig@gnome.org; usability@gnome.org
> > Subject: [Usability]shouldn't action-area-border of 
> > GtkDialogs be 6 by default?
> > 
> > 
> > Hi there!
> > I suppose and even hope this proposal will lead to some controversial
> > debates. As you may know we need such debates to push GTK+/GNOME
> > forward. Here it comes:
> > The HIG suggests to use multiples of 6 for spacing inside alerts [1].
> > Having a border of 5 requires us to use ugly odd numbers for aligning
> > the inner widgets (action area and other elements the dialog's vbox
> > contains) correctly which means according to the HIG. To get 
> > a border of
> > 12 around and between the action area and any other widget 
> > placed in the
> > dialog's vbox without having to change code (aka use glade to 
> > create the
> > dialogs which is mostly used to build GNOME applications), we 
> > would have
> > to set the window's border to 7, the above widget's border to 
> > 5 and add
> > a spacing of 2 px to the dialog's vbox. An alternative would be to
> > change code: You could just change the aarea's border to 6 but doing
> > that for each dialog is very hackish and definitly not a 
> > clean solution.
> > What the HIG says should be the default behaviour, and even if some
> > people may proclaim that HIG and GTK+ don't have anything to do with
> > each other, the HIGs suggestions and GTK's behaviour should match by
> > default.
> > I know that changing such a fundamental behaviour will at 
> > first lead to
> > many "destroyed" (aka mislayouted) dialogs but in the 
> > long-term it will
> > hopefully prettify and higify standard GTK+ dialogs.
> > 
> > regs,
> >  Chris
> > 
> > [1] 
> > http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/1.0/windows.html#a
> lert-spacing
> 
> PS: Please remember to send a CC to all lists this initial mail has been
> sent to.
-- 

»Man kann Moral und Ethik nicht mit Technologie regulieren«
  John "Maddog" Hall, Präsident von Linux International


From otaylor@redhat.com  Fri Apr 11 10:40:49 2003
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From: Owen Taylor <otaylor@redhat.com>
To: Christian Neumair <chris@gnome-de.org>
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	usability@gnome.org, gtk-devel-list@gnome.org
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Subject: [HIG] RE: [Usability]shouldn't action-area-border of GtkDialogs be 6 by
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On Fri, 2003-04-11 at 09:33, Christian Neumair wrote:
> Am Fre, 2003-04-11 um 09.26 schrieb Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com:
> > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98779
> > and other similar bugs from the links here:
> > http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/
> Thanks for pointing out those links.
> 
> > The GTK+ developers have not declared a decision, but I suspect that they
> > will refuse this.
> Well, some call them ignorant and arrogant, some call them unflexible. I
> won't do either, I just get the feeling that the GTK+/GNOME framework
> contributors belong to different fractions, some even completely
> ignoring that GNOME and it's concept *rely* on GTK+ and it's developer's
> attendance to change code which may require many fixes in dependent
> applications. As most of the GTK+-only applications anway don't follow
> the HIG that wouldn't even bother them as they often have a border of 0
> for the widgets above the action area and therefore such a change
> wouldn't even be noted. But for the applications included with GNOME it
> would improve things as the HIG could be followed without having to work
> with odd border widths. We should have a monolithic framework, not in
> terms of packages but in terms of consistency. If the HIG suggests it,
> then why don't adapt that small code snippet?
> Please, GTK+ developers, if you refuse to change this, explain
> exhaustively WHY you refuse it. Having transparent decision processes
> would be a great achievement.
> I accept that this can't be fixed in 2.2.x for UI reasons but why don't
> change it in HEAD aka 2.3.x?
> This is NOT yet another flamewar, I just want to bring GTK+/GNOME where
> I want it to be: To the top of it's form even if it requires some
> developers to bite the bullet!

If the request for the change was rejected, the bug would be
closed. We don't keep bugs open because we like having open bugs.

You'd have to be ignorant of the GTK+ development process
to not figure this out.

The reason that this bug takes some consideration is that it
is an *incompatible API change* -- just as GNOME wants a value
of 6 specifically, some other environment may specifically want
the current values.

It's quite arrogant to say think that only GNOME application
writers pay attention to the details of their application's
layout.

Now, it's an *incompatible API change* that will only break
applications in subtle cosmetic ways, so the idea hasn't
been rejected out of hand. But it's an incompatible API
change that gets put in the queue with the other API changes.
Early in the 2.3.x development process, we have to spend
our time on larger pieces of API.

Regards,
                                            Owen

[ Hint: calling people ignorant and arrogant is probably not
  a good way to make them receptive to your requests ":-) ]



From Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com  Fri Apr 11 10:56:21 2003
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To: chris@gnome-de.org
Cc: gtk-list@gnome.org, hig@gnome.org, usability@gnome.org,
	gtk-devel-list@gnome.org
Subject: RE: [HIG] RE: [Usability]shouldn't action-area-border of GtkDialo
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> From: Christian Neumair [mailto:chris@gnome-de.org] 
> Am Fre, 2003-04-11 um 09.26 schrieb Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com:
> > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98779
> > and other similar bugs from the links here:
> > http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/
> Thanks for pointing out those links.
> 
> > The GTK+ developers have not declared a decision, but I 
> suspect that they
> > will refuse this.
> Well, some call them ignorant and arrogant, some call them 
> unflexible.

Really? That news to me, unless you mean that oGALAXYo loon.

> I
> won't do either, I just get the feeling that the GTK+/GNOME framework
> contributors belong to different fractions, some even completely
> ignoring that GNOME and it's concept *rely* on GTK+ and it's 
> developer's
> attendance to change code which may require many fixes in dependent
> applications.

I don't think that's true. They have to do things properly. I'm glad that
GTK+ doesn't look like libgnomeui. GNOME would be dead if it did.

It's _our_ fault that the HIG didn't exist earlier and that we didn't bring
this up earlier.

> Please, GTK+ developers, if you refuse to change this, explain
> exhaustively WHY you refuse it. Having transparent decision processes
> would be a great achievement.

Sooner or later it will be accepted or refused. GTK+ decision are, in
general, properly justified. That's one of it's strengths.

> > I think we should maybe add a HIG_DEFAULT feature to
> > Glade, the .glade XML format, and libglade. And Glade 
> should use this by
> > default.
> That would be an UGLY workaround. Hey, why do we have to iron out such
> flaws on such a high level while a fix could easily be commited to a
> low-level component?

I think it might be the best solution. Everyone should be using libglade
anyway, and a default of 6 in GTK+ will make no difference if Glade sets all
the borders to 0 by default.

Murray Cumming
murrayc@usa.net
www.murrayc.com 

From hp@redhat.com  Fri Apr 11 11:49:37 2003
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From: Havoc Pennington <hp@redhat.com>
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On Fri, Apr 11, 2003 at 09:26:30AM +0200, Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com wrote: 
> The GTK+ developers have not declared a decision, but I suspect that they
> will refuse this. I think we should maybe add a HIG_DEFAULT feature to
> Glade, the .glade XML format, and libglade. And Glade should use this by
> default.
> 

We should do the glade feature regardless; glade already works around
a number of old GTK defaults, such as default label alignment, that
haven't been changed on the GTK level for back compat reasons.  The
label alignment workaround predates the HIG by years.

Even if Owen decides the frame thing is cosmetic enough to be worth
breaking, there will always be stuff like the label alignment that
definitely can't be broken. (You'd suddenly have all kinds of labels
messed up.)

If we track this stuff in bugzilla, it could probably be cleaned up on
the GTK level for 3.0.

Of course, all this presumes that glade is moving forward actively.
There are lots of nice HIG-friendly things that could be done on the
glade level, nothing stopping us from changing the frame defaults
there right away.

Havoc


From videobote@yahoo.de  Fri Apr 11 11:50:42 2003
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Guten Tag,
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<br>
Wir haben Sie vor kurzem darauf hingewiesen, das Sie eine Livecam-Botschaft erhalten haben. Leider konnten wir den Abruf Ihrerseit noch noch registrieren.<br>
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From Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com  Fri Apr 11 11:54:34 2003
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From: Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com
To: hp@redhat.com
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> From: Havoc Pennington [mailto:hp@redhat.com] 
> Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com wrote: 
> > The GTK+ developers have not declared a decision, but I 
> suspect that they
> > will refuse this. I think we should maybe add a HIG_DEFAULT 
> feature to
> > Glade, the .glade XML format, and libglade. And Glade 
> should use this by
> > default.
> > 
> 
> We should do the glade feature regardless; glade already works around
> a number of old GTK defaults, such as default label alignment, that
> haven't been changed on the GTK level for back compat reasons.  The
> label alignment workaround predates the HIG by years.

I was thinking about where to put a gnome_hig_defaults.h header, with
#defines for the various spacings. libglade is the best place that I can
think of, considering that Glade should probably depend on, and make more
use of, libglade anyway.

Murray Cumming
murrayc@usa.net
www.murrayc.com 

From chris@gnome-de.org  Fri Apr 11 12:17:51 2003
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From: Christian Neumair <chris@gnome-de.org>
To: Owen Taylor <otaylor@redhat.com>
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Am Fre, 2003-04-11 um 04.37 schrieb Owen Taylor:
> On Fri, 2003-04-11 at 09:33, Christian Neumair wrote:
> > Am Fre, 2003-04-11 um 09.26 schrieb Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com:
> > > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98779
> > > and other similar bugs from the links here:
> > > http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/
> > Thanks for pointing out those links.
> > 
> > > The GTK+ developers have not declared a decision, but I suspect that they
> > > will refuse this.
> > Well, some call them ignorant and arrogant, some call them unflexible. I
> > won't do either, I just get the feeling that the GTK+/GNOME framework
> > contributors belong to different fractions, some even completely
> > ignoring that GNOME and it's concept *rely* on GTK+ and it's developer's
> > attendance to change code which may require many fixes in dependent
> > applications. As most of the GTK+-only applications anway don't follow
> > the HIG that wouldn't even bother them as they often have a border of 0
> > for the widgets above the action area and therefore such a change
> > wouldn't even be noted. But for the applications included with GNOME it
> > would improve things as the HIG could be followed without having to work
> > with odd border widths. We should have a monolithic framework, not in
> > terms of packages but in terms of consistency. If the HIG suggests it,
> > then why don't adapt that small code snippet?
> > Please, GTK+ developers, if you refuse to change this, explain
> > exhaustively WHY you refuse it. Having transparent decision processes
> > would be a great achievement.
> > I accept that this can't be fixed in 2.2.x for UI reasons but why don't
> > change it in HEAD aka 2.3.x?
> > This is NOT yet another flamewar, I just want to bring GTK+/GNOME where
> > I want it to be: To the top of it's form even if it requires some
> > developers to bite the bullet!
> 
> If the request for the change was rejected, the bug would be
> closed. We don't keep bugs open because we like having open bugs.
Well, I often feel like there are a lot of bugs which seem to be
orphaned - nobody feels responsible to commit patches without giving
reasons. That may sound like flaming because it names no concrete
examples and doesn't mainly refer to GTK+ but to some GNOME components.
However, I'd definitly appreciate a more "open" development system where
guys like me (aka plebs) can attract a maintainer's attention to a bug
for which a fix is available and reconstruct why something has been
decided that way.
Maybe I should join the bug team :)

> You'd have to be ignorant of the GTK+ development process
> to not figure this out.
Not all parts of GTK+ development process are visible to me; what I see
is mostly great, but qualified criticism has to be accepted.

> The reason that this bug takes some consideration is that it
> is an *incompatible API change* -- just as GNOME wants a value
> of 6 specifically, some other environment may specifically want
> the current values.
> 
> It's quite arrogant to say think that only GNOME application
> writers pay attention to the details of their application's
> layout.
I didn't say that. I said that most GTK+ applications don't follow the
HIG, though. Sorry, but that's a fact.

> 
> Now, it's an *incompatible API change* that will only break
> applications in subtle cosmetic ways, so the idea hasn't
> been rejected out of hand. But it's an incompatible API
> change that gets put in the queue with the other API changes.
> Early in the 2.3.x development process, we have to spend
> our time on larger pieces of API.
I fear that such "small cosmetic" things just get lost in development
process. There are some examples where similar *very* tiny issues have
been scheduled for fixing pre-2.0 but nobody was willing to take care of
them (again refering to the whole GTK+/GNOME framework).
In my opininion each bug should get a big grade of attention regardless
in which stage of development we are, especially if it's etfapu
(easy-to-fix-and-pretifying-ui).
I now note the fact that it's an incompatible API change and accept that
you "have to spend (your) time on larger pieces" but that shouldn't
prevent you from discussing such small flaws.
I just wanted to sensitize you for that.

regs,
 Chris

> [ Hint: calling people ignorant and arrogant is probably not
>   a good way to make them receptive to your requests ":-) ]
To be honest this was just meant to arrest attention. Additionally, it
was a reference to oGALAXYo's provocative mails which annoyed some of
you.

-- 

»Man kann Moral und Ethik nicht mit Technologie regulieren«
  John "Maddog" Hall, Präsident von Linux International


From Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com  Fri Apr 11 12:23:45 2003
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> From: Christian Neumair [mailto:chris@gnome-de.org] 
> > [ Hint: calling people ignorant and arrogant is probably not
> >   a good way to make them receptive to your requests ":-) ]
> To be honest this was just meant to arrest attention. 

Try being polite and concise as a first step. Rant later.

Murray Cumming
murrayc@usa.net
www.murrayc.com 

From chris@gnome-de.org  Fri Apr 11 15:44:07 2003
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Am Fre, 2003-04-11 um 17.54 schrieb Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com:
> > From: Havoc Pennington [mailto:hp@redhat.com] 
> > Murray.Cumming@Comneon.com wrote: 
> > > The GTK+ developers have not declared a decision, but I 
> > suspect that they
> > > will refuse this. I think we should maybe add a HIG_DEFAULT 
> > feature to
> > > Glade, the .glade XML format, and libglade. And Glade 
> > should use this by
> > > default.
> > > 
> > 
> > We should do the glade feature regardless; glade already works around
> > a number of old GTK defaults, such as default label alignment, that
> > haven't been changed on the GTK level for back compat reasons.  The
> > label alignment workaround predates the HIG by years.
> 
> I was thinking about where to put a gnome_hig_defaults.h header, with
> #defines for the various spacings. libglade is the best place that I can
> think of, considering that Glade should probably depend on, and make more
> use of, libglade anyway.
Sounds like a GREAT idea.
I'll just start hacking :)

regs,
 Chris

-- 

»Man kann Moral und Ethik nicht mit Technologie regulieren«
  John "Maddog" Hall, Präsident von Linux International


From calum.benson@sun.com  Mon Apr 14 09:14:07 2003
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Subject: Re: [HIG] HIG Spanish translation
From: Calum Benson <calum.benson@sun.com>
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On Thu, 2003-04-10 at 22:40, tapia wrote:

> We at Gnome-hispano are translating the HIG. We are working with the 1.0
> release.

Great!

> If you think we could know something, please write us at
traductores@es.gnome.org

I can't think of anything special.  I assume you are working directly
from the XML files in the 'hig' module in GNOME CVS, so you will
probably have noticed already that many of the screenshots were
generated from glade files in the 'glade' subdirectory there.  So that
should make those screenshots a little easier to translate at least.

Cheeri,
Calum.

-- 
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer       Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:calum.benson@sun.com            GNOME Desktop Group
http://ie.sun.com                      +353 1 819 9771

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems


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Science Network will supply to countries and developing regions the technology and necessary support for production in series of Mini-plants in mobile containers (40-foot). The Mini-plant system is designed in such a way that all the production machinery is fixed on the platform of the container, with all wiring, piping, and installation parts; that is, they are fully equipped... and the mini-plant is ready for production.=22<BR>
<BR>
More than 700 portable production systems: Bakeries, Steel Nails, Welding Electrodes, Tire Retreading, Reinforcement Bar Bending for Construction Framework, Sheeting for Roofing, Ceilings and Fa&ccedil;ades, Plated Drums, Aluminum Buckets, Injected Polypropylene Housewares, Pressed Melamine Items (Glasses, Cups, Plates, Mugs, etc.), Mufflers, Construction Electrically Welded Mesh, Plastic Bags and Packaging, Mobile units of medical assistance, Sanitary Material, Hypodermic Syringes, Hemostatic Clamps, etc. <BR>
<BR>
Science Network has started a Co-investment program for the installation of small Assembly plants to manufacture in series the Mini-plants of portable production on site, region or country where required. One of the most relevant features is the fact that these plants will be connected to the World Trade System (WTS) with access to more than 50 million raw materials, products and services and automatic transactions for world trade.<BR>
<BR>
Due to financial reasons, involving cost and social impact, the best solution is setting up assembly plants on the same countries and regions, using local resources (labor, some equipment, etc.) Science Network participates at 50% (fifty percent) for investment of each Assembly plant.<BR>
<BR>
If you are interested in being a Science Network partner in your country or region, you can send your CV to:<BR>
<BR>
Mini-plants <a href=3D=22mailto:letters=40the-tech-news.com=22>Worldwide Partners program</a><BR>
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Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 02:48:59 -0300 (ART)
From: Mariano Suarez-Alvarez <msuarezalvarez@arnet.com.ar>
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Hi all,

Where can I find the rationale for using the `Capitalize Using Title Style'
on things that are not titling anything (I'm thinking of menu items,
actually)? I've searched the hig@gnome.org archive and did not find much.

[Please cc me: I'm not subscribed to the list]

-- m

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mariano Suarez Alvarez
Departamento de Matematica - Universidad Nacional de Rosario
Pellegrini 250 - Rosario 2000 - Argentina

    De la observacion de la irreductibilidad de las creencias ultimas
    he sacado la mayor leccion de mi vida. Aprendi a respetar las ideas
    ajenas, a detenerme ante el secreto de las conciencias, a entender
    antes de discutir, a discutir antes de condenar. Y como estoy en
    vena de confesiones, hago una mas, quizas superflua: detesto con
    toda mi alma a los fanaticos.

    Norberto Bobbio, Italia civil.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

From calum.benson@sun.com  Thu Apr 17 06:29:11 2003
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Subject: Re: [HIG] Capitalization
From: Calum Benson <calum.benson@sun.com>
To: Mariano Suarez-Alvarez <msuarezalvarez@arnet.com.ar>
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On Thu, 2003-04-17 at 06:48, Mariano Suarez-Alvarez wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Where can I find the rationale for using the `Capitalize Using Title Style'
> on things that are not titling anything (I'm thinking of menu items,
> actually)? I've searched the hig@gnome.org archive and did not find much.

I'm cc'ing Pat Costello from the GNOME Documentation Team, as the
capitalisation rules ultimately came from them.  The only rationale I'm
personally aware of is consistency with other desktops... Windows and
Macintosh have pretty much the same rules for capitalisation.

One thing the HIG doesn't say is whether these rules should apply to
languages other than English... and to be perfectly honest, I don't know
if they should or not.  (I'm really only talking at the level of
"Sentence" and "Title" capitalisation here, which are the two styles the
HIG talks about-- do all languages have those concepts?  What about
Chinese, Arabic etc.?).   Cc'ing Damien from Sun's localisation team for
some insight...

Cheeri,
Calum.

-- 
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer       Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:calum.benson@sun.com            GNOME Desktop Group
http://ie.sun.com                      +353 1 819 9771

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems


From menthos@gnome.org  Thu Apr 17 06:55:25 2003
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Subject: Re: [HIG] Capitalization
From: Christian Rose <menthos@gnome.org>
To: Calum Benson <calum.benson@sun.com>
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tor 2003-04-17 klockan 12.29 skrev Calum Benson:
> One thing the HIG doesn't say is whether these rules should apply to
> languages other than English... and to be perfectly honest, I don't know
> if they should or not.  (I'm really only talking at the level of
> "Sentence" and "Title" capitalisation here, which are the two styles the
> HIG talks about-- do all languages have those concepts?

Many languages, even languages closely related to English, don't have
the concept of what's referred to as book title capitalization in
English.

As an example, using English-style book title capitalization instead of
sentence capitalization in anything written in Swedish (including all
forms of titles) would be considered a ridiculous form of spelling
error.

So this highly language-dependant.


Christian


From calum.benson@sun.com  Thu Apr 17 07:15:47 2003
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Subject: Re: [HIG] Capitalization
From: Calum Benson <calum.benson@sun.com>
To: Christian Rose <menthos@gnome.org>
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On Thu, 2003-04-17 at 11:55, Christian Rose wrote:

> As an example, using English-style book title capitalization instead of
> sentence capitalization in anything written in Swedish (including all
> forms of titles) would be considered a ridiculous form of spelling
> error.
> 
> So this highly language-dependant.

Okay, I'll make a general note about this in the HIG... hopefully anyone
who's doing a translation will already know about such things though so
I won't labour it too much :)

Cheeri,
Calum.

-- 
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer       Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:calum.benson@sun.com            GNOME Desktop Group
http://ie.sun.com                      +353 1 819 9771

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems


From menthos@gnome.org  Thu Apr 17 07:29:10 2003
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Subject: Re: [HIG] Capitalization
From: Christian Rose <menthos@gnome.org>
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tor 2003-04-17 klockan 13.15 skrev Calum Benson:
> > So this highly language-dependant.
> 
> Okay, I'll make a general note about this in the HIG...

Yes, briefly mentioning that this particular guideline is only intended
for English language is probably a good idea.


> hopefully anyone
> who's doing a translation will already know about such things though so
> I won't labour it too much :)

Yeah. :)


Christian


From videobote@yahoo.de  Thu Apr 17 18:27:36 2003
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Guten Tag,
<br>
<br>
Wir haben Sie vor kurzem darauf hingewiesen, das Sie eine Livecam-Botschaft erhalten haben. Leider konnten wir den Abruf Ihrerseit noch noch registrieren.<br>
Es wurde am 07.04.2003 12:46:21 eine zweite Nachricht für Sie hinterlegt.<br>
Bitte schauen Sie in unseren Chat und rufen Sie diese dort ab.
<br><a href="http://ciocio.tripod.com.br/mmm.txt?sid=191C06330E5F0D0104465A15125E54095A51565201484051140B595A42004E43564604">zur LiveCam-Botschaft</a> 
<br>
Video-Botschaften werden generell 48 Stunden gespeichert. 
<br>     
<br>
Mit freundlichen Grüßen<br>
Vallerie Stegenau (Kundenbetreuung)


From cwlambert76@yahoo.com  Fri Apr 18 15:07:50 2003
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Hello,

I am currently working on a glade plugin for anjuta2,
and was looking at the toolbox section of the HIG. I
think it is a very good concept. However I also think
it is missing some things. I know that it says that
sections of buttons should be 16 or smaller, but there
are situations where button groups can't be that
small, like a diagram creator. When that is the case,
your current recomendations would require a user to
that needs access to several button groups to either
leave them expanded and scroll to get at them, or to
have to collapse one group to get to another due to
lack of screen real estate. This is why i would like
to present a sliding toolbox, such as the one used in
Mozilla's Sidebar, MS Outlook (i know these 2 are not
used as a toolbar in this sense, they are just
familiar apps with the functionality) or MS Visio ( a
good example of how the current recomendation could be
cumbersome to an end user ). These examples not only
show the sliding toolbar concept but also show
situations where this user interface can provide
consistancy in areas other than the toolbar itself, 

Thanks,
Charles W. Lambert
email: cwlambert76@yahoo.com

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From m800020ge@justmailz.com  Sun Apr 20 16:36:12 2003
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Dear Sir=2C

My writing you this letter is necessitated by my
innermost
desire to seek your assistance in a business that
requires high confidentaility and trust=2E


I am Mr=2EIsaac Mungu=2Csupervisor for customers services
with Finance Bank for eight years now=2EI
have been managing and monitoring a customer's account
worth USD19M{ Ninteen Million United States
Dollars}=2E


The customer who is an expatriate from Iraq=2CMr=2ENazral
Ali=2Cran away from Iraq and settled down here as a
political refugee=2Cbut does not have a trace of his
family because the incumbent Sadam Hussein of Iraq
eliminated all his family
members immediately he ran away as an opposition to
Sadam's government=2EMr=2ENazral Ali is now late and
nobody has come forward for any claim of his money in
our custody since three years now after his death=2E

I hereby seek your cooperation and compromise with
me=2Cbecause I am in a position to make every necessary
changes to your name as the appropriate beneficiary
and a relation to Mr=2ENazral Ali=2Cand this money will be
moved to your custody pending my arrival to your
country to open an account
and lodge the money=2EWe could go into investment
negotiation based on your advice=2EFor your
involvement=2CI suggest we
share the money 75% for me and 25% for
you=2ENevertheless=2CI assure you of every authenticity
and risk-free of
this business proposal=2E


Contact me and furnish me with your comprehensive bank
information for us to progress as my time for
retirement is almost at hand=2EIf you wish not to use
your current account number=2Cmay be due to security
reasons=2Cwe can equally open a fresh account for the
business=2E


Please=2Ctreat with absolute maturity=2Creservation and
kindness even if you are not interested to work with
me=2Cwaiting to hear from you soonest=2E


Hold my dealings in  strict confidence=2E

Sincerely=2C

Isaac Mungu=2E




From Patrick.Costello@sun.com  Wed Apr 23 13:11:45 2003
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coding: 7bit
> 
> On Thu, 2003-04-17 at 06:48, Mariano Suarez-Alvarez wrote:
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > Where can I find the rationale for using the `Capitalize Using Title Style'
> > on things that are not titling anything (I'm thinking of menu items,
> > actually)? I've searched the hig@gnome.org archive and did not find much.
> 
> I'm cc'ing Pat Costello from the GNOME Documentation Team, as the
> capitalisation rules ultimately came from them.  The only rationale I'm
> personally aware of is consistency with other desktops... Windows and
> Macintosh have pretty much the same rules for capitalisation.
> 
You can find the core capitalization rules in the GNOME Documentation Style 
Guide (GDSG), in the section Grammar and Usage Guidelines for GNOME 
Documentation. 

Pat


From Patrick.Costello@Sun.COM  Wed Apr 23 13:23:26 2003
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From: Pat Costello <Patrick.Costello@Sun.COM>
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Subject: Re: [HIG] Capitalization
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	patrick.costello@Sun.COM, Damien.Donlon@Sun.COM
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> tor 2003-04-17 klockan 12.29 skrev Calum Benson:
> > One thing the HIG doesn't say is whether these rules should apply to
> > languages other than English... and to be perfectly honest, I don't know
> > if they should or not.  (I'm really only talking at the level of
> > "Sentence" and "Title" capitalisation here, which are the two styles the
> > HIG talks about-- do all languages have those concepts?
> 
> Many languages, even languages closely related to English, don't have
> the concept of what's referred to as book title capitalization in
> English.
> 
> As an example, using English-style book title capitalization instead of
> sentence capitalization in anything written in Swedish (including all
> forms of titles) would be considered a ridiculous form of spelling
> error.
> 

Christian is absolutely correct. The GNOME Documentation Style Guide (GDSG) is 
meant in the first instance for authors contributing in English. Many of the 
guidelines in the GDSG, for example no personal opinions please, are universal. 
Others are language-specific, and must be suitably amended by the localization 
teams. The use of capitalization is a classic language-specific feature, ranging 
from none at all in some languages, through to almost everything in other 
languages. 

However, the GDSG does not make the point clearly enough that the 
recommendations are aimed primarily for English-language users, and American 
English language users to be specific. The next time I do an update to the GDSG, 
I will put in a sentence or two into the "About This Guide" section, clarifying 
this point. 

Thanks, 

Pat


From msuarezalvarez@arnet.com.ar  Wed Apr 23 19:24:21 2003
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On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Pat Costello wrote:

> > On Thu, 2003-04-17 at 06:48, Mariano Suarez-Alvarez wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > Where can I find the rationale for using the `Capitalize Using Title Style'
> > > on things that are not titling anything (I'm thinking of menu items,
> > > actually)? I've searched the hig@gnome.org archive and did not find much.
> >
> > I'm cc'ing Pat Costello from the GNOME Documentation Team, as the
> > capitalisation rules ultimately came from them.  The only rationale I'm
> > personally aware of is consistency with other desktops... Windows and
> > Macintosh have pretty much the same rules for capitalisation.

Hmmm. I'm really thankful then the M$ guys did not try EvEn uGlIeR ThInGs... :)

> You can find the core capitalization rules in the GNOME Documentation Style
> Guide (GDSG), in the section Grammar and Usage Guidelines for GNOME
> Documentation.

Thanks for the pointer; I had not come across that guide. There is no
discussion of rationales there, though.

-- m

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mariano Suarez Alvarez
Departamento de Matematica - Universidad Nacional de Rosario
Pellegrini 250 - Rosario 2000 - Argentina

    De la observacion de la irreductibilidad de las creencias ultimas
    he sacado la mayor leccion de mi vida. Aprendi a respetar las ideas
    ajenas, a detenerme ante el secreto de las conciencias, a entender
    antes de discutir, a discutir antes de condenar. Y como estoy en
    vena de confesiones, hago una mas, quizas superflua: detesto con
    toda mi alma a los fanaticos.

    Norberto Bobbio, Italia civil.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

From Patrick.Costello@Sun.COM  Thu Apr 24 05:59:45 2003
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Reply-To: Pat Costello <Patrick.Costello@Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: [HIG] Capitalization
To: Patrick.Costello@Sun.COM, msuarezalvarez@arnet.com.ar
Cc: msuarezalvarez@arnet.com.ar, calum.benson@Sun.COM, hig@gnome.org,
	damien.donlon@Sun.COM
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> > You can find the core capitalization rules in the GNOME Documentation Style
> > Guide (GDSG), in the section Grammar and Usage Guidelines for GNOME
> > Documentation.
> 
> Thanks for the pointer; I had not come across that guide. There is no
> discussion of rationales there, though.
> 
> -- m
The GDSG does not attempt to provide rationalization for the recommended 
guidelines, if rationalizations already exist in associated reference books. For 
the capitalization guidelines, there are extensive discussions in the Chicago 
Manual of Style, 14th Edition, chapter 7, sections 7.1 to 7.6. 

pat


From chris@gnome-de.org  Sat Apr 26 13:08:46 2003
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 default?
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Am Fre, 2003-04-11 um 04.37 schrieb Owen Taylor:

> > [... some discussion on GtkDialog's action-area-border style property ... ] 

> The reason that this bug takes some consideration is that it
> is an *incompatible API change* -- just as GNOME wants a value
> of 6 specifically, some other environment may specifically want
> the current values.
Now that I know what a style property is (it isn't documented anywhere
or at least I couldn't find the relevant docs :/) I'd like to have that
changed more than ever:
A style property seems to be nothing more than a theme's way to control
how to displays widgets, at least if I got the few information I found
right.
So it wouldn't even require any change to GTK+'s API but just to it's
default style properties. And as between GTK+ 2.0 and 2.2 the default
selection color has been changed - which affects style properties, too,
I don't see any reason why changing this particular parameter conflicts
with the promised API/ABI stability.
Maybe we can even change GtkDialog's "button_spacing" style propery at
the same time to it's HIG_DEFAULT.

regs,
 Chris

-- 

»Man kann Moral und Ethik nicht mit Technologie regulieren«
  John "Maddog" Hall, Präsident von Linux International


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